Lively Case Discussion #490 7/9 - 7/10/2006

[Tylergal]

Shizaru - with all due respect, I will wait for confirmation of the phone call from someone other than Charles Croes.  

Gunslinger says he heard the call.  I want to know how or where he heard the call.  Gunslinger said it definately was Natalee's voice and that you would not need any special voice recognition to realize that.

I agree that the call shouldn't be discounted as being from Natalee just based on Croes saying it wasn't, particularly when he didn't say how he knew that.  

However I think that either there is no female voice on the call, or if there is voice analysis has determined it isn't Natalee, because if there were a confirmed call from Natalee after she left with the trio, even if for some reason the family wanted to keep that secret, which I don't think they would, something that big would have leaked by now.

My thinking on these calls is that it is best to let JQK expose the phone calls and their origins at the appropriate time.

That's just it Tylergal.  I think it would have been in JQK and the H/T camps to have this info (if authenticated) made public because it helps enhance their case in the court of public opinion.  And, that is what's most important here.  Remember, they were trying to apply pressure to the Aruban LE and prosecutors to solve this case by way of a boycott and other methods during this time.  It would have only strengthened thier position by making these calls public (if they are, in fact, real)...

These calls were discussed on TV within 48 hours of Natalee's disappearance.  I am of the impression that FBI asked them to not talk about them any more.  I heard the discussion where Beth & Jug discussed these calls and a few days later, I heard the FBI had asked them to quit talking.  It was my assumption at this point and time they were being told what to discuss and what not to discuss.  But then I probably know nothing, a la Gunslinger.

[Susebear]

That's just it Tylergal.  I think it would have been in JQK and the H/T camps to have this info (if authenticated) made public because it helps enhance their case in the court of public opinion.  And, that is what's most important here.  Remember, they were trying to apply pressure to the Aruban LE and prosecutors to solve this case by way of a boycott and other methods during this time.  It would have only strengthened thier position by making these calls public (if they are, in fact, real)...

Unless by openly discussing "evidence" it makes it unadmissable in an eventual trial according to their rules?

[Shizaru]

Greta confimed on on her blog that there is a male voice on the call, saying "Are you calling home", supposedly C. Croes has confirmed that via e-mail as well.  Greta didn't mention any female voice on the call, neither did alleged Croes e-mail (e-mail also said male voice was preceeded by about a minute of moving vehicle sounds).
 
However I remember Dash/Alana Jordan saying she had heard the call and she couldn't understand what was being said but didn't think it sounded like Natalee (Dash's SM posts are archived on scrux, I think some of them are missing but it could be in there somewhere).  Apparently several MB kids listened to the call during the bus ride home.  And if it was just a male voice you'd think Alana would have specified that the voice wasn't even female.  So perhaps there was a very faint garbled female voice on the call too, before the male voice.  

I think the call probably wasn't from Natalee, and if it had been confirmed to be Natalee via voice analysis we would know that by now.  However it is possible that voice analysis wasn't able to determine whether it was her or not.  I had a discussion once with someone who seemed to know a lot about the subject and he said voice analysis is not as reliable as you see on TV, even if  FBI could clean it up enough to determine she was saying "I don't know these people", to confirm a match they would probably need tape of Natalee saying those same words, or at least some of the same words.

Well, we are mixing oranges and apples here.  There was a call to William Norris and a call to the residence, which Jug did not answer and it went to voice mail, the call that Beth asked the state trooper to listen to when she was stopped doing 100 miles per hour and the state trooper escorted her and made sure she was save from Arkansas to Alabama on May 30.

That is what I remember as well. To me, this has always been the reason that Beth immediately used the term "Kidnapping."
I have always found it odd that the H/T's have not continued to "shout this out." This alone could have deflected a lot of criticism that the naysayers have been spewing.  My guess is that FBI has told them to absolutely clam up about this. That is one of the reasons I think the FBI IS very much involved and are simply remaining mum for much larger reasons.

I think the call played for the state trooper was the call from the chaperone or whoever it was that notified Beth that Natalee was missing.  I have never seen thsi rumor of a call by Natalee to the answering machine confired anywhere and do not think it is realistic that the family would be concealing that.

[klaasend]

[Nut44x4]

If per say we need to wait the 60 day rule.....could someone post when that 60 day limit would be up concerning NY judge....?? So many stories to follow now and so much to swallow.....any idea on her ruling??

[Nut44x4]

Rob on bfn is still promising info........just like MF on fob and so far no info...it all maked me sick. This girl is dead and they still hold back info, IF THEY in fact HAVE REAL INFO...it all makes me sick. Why torture readers with COMING INFO' when there is no real info. Fu** them. Get real and get down or SHUT UP>period.

[Tylergal]

Exacting justice, how do you do that ith a communist system? Not sure but I think it happens.  Even Kruschev knew it could happen.  Aruba's system is shades of the old USSR, on a much smaller scale, so the possibility that the people on the island will wake up and want to regain their little rock from the Dutch is possible, but then highly unlikely as they sat on it for hundreds of years without doing anything, allowing the Dutch to take it over and enjoying the building of high rises, restaurants, and man-made beaches via the Americans.  To say they lack imagination or courage, would be an understatement.

[ala_gunslinger]

Cell Call Message...

I see call remains subject of discussion, as it should be.  And to be clear, I refer to vm message to MBHS student phone: William Morris, presumed to have originating time approx 3:00am, Aruba Time.  (I note Shizaru's f/u from NE stating call done between 1:00am - 5:00am.)

IMO, among things to consider is "rumoured" code contained in words of female caller: "I don't know these people..." and to couple w/ following:

1.  The news reports (from May31 - June4) citing Jan van der Straaten and his downplaying of abduction/kidnapping as being part of any potential crime.

2.  The unusal words of Spencer Bachus made during press conference in which he requested the "heavy" involvement of FBI:  he said the family is aware of "disturbing details" and further stated "this was not a teen (Natalee) who wandered off..."

3.  The headline on first posters hung on island upon arrival of HT family: kidnapped.

IMO, it was neither unusual, nor unexpected, for family to make existence of call known to media, etc during interviews, because assuming "code" is true, the real meaning of the words in the vm message remained unknown for many months after May 30, 2005.

HAMMER - On July 5th, 2006 Gunslinger indicated that he had heard the message and that it was most definately Natalee.  I'm hoping Gunslinger will come back online soon today to clear up HOW he heard the message.

Hearing that call was the spike driven through my heart, and the reason I have so much suppressed hate.  I KNOW others heard it.  Much was discussed about it.  It has since vanished from the radar screen of msm.  There is a reason for that.  I cannot confirm it was on Greta, but it was on Fox.  

I will NEVER forget those words as long as I live.  

I can only say that those punks better hope I never get diagnosed with an incurrable disease.

[the big hammer]

Kidnapping Ramped To Murder

Shizaru writes: "...because if there were a confirmed call from Natalee after she left with the trio, even if for some reason the family wanted to keep that secret, which I don't think they would, something that big would have leaked by now..."

As we know, the existence of the call itself was not kept secret, at least not for long, as Greta had Beth on TV talking about certain aspects of it.  However, I believe the meaning of the call "may" have been kept secret, and certainly was not publicized as part of news reports, and only recently came to light on these threads.

If indeed the code words spoken are as described, the reason to keep this on "need to know" basis ONLY, is clearly for protection of victim.  As overt distress message delivered via cell would have endangered Natalee even more (assuming of course she survived in kidnapped manner for days after May 30).  In these situations, when violent/desperate kidnapper knows call for help has been made, chances of murder increase dramatically.

As reminder for all, these are the reported words of Spencer Bachus, R-AL, spoken on June 4 2005.

U.S. Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Vestavia Hills, said Saturday there were circumstances surrounding Holloway's disappearance that warranted the FBI being heavily involved. He declined to give details.

"The circumstances were disturbing," said Bachus, who formally requested the FBI's involvement. "I can't get into it, but it's something the family is aware of. There was an immediate recognition that this was not simply a teen who wandered off."

"Immediate recognition" -- suggests some people knew some things right away.

[thirdstrike]

Rob on bfn is still promising info........just like MF on fob and so far no info...it all maked me sick. This girl is dead and they still hold back info, IF THEY in fact HAVE REAL INFO...it all makes me sick. Why torture readers with COMING INFO' when there is no real info. Fu** them. Get real and get down or SHUT UP>period.

So, Rob's like "Shango Jr." now, huh?  Trust me on this...those people who say they have "real info" yet withold it (for whatever reason) don't have any more then any of us have...period!!  How many times have we waited on these boards for those posters who claim "intimate knowledge" of the case turn around an offer up jack chit?  If I had a dollar for each one, I'd be the host of "The Apprentice"...

It's all smoke and mirrors...aimed at deception rather then assistance...

[thirdstrike]

Cell Call Message...

I see call remains subject of discussion, as it should be.  And to be clear, I refer to vm message to MBHS student phone: William Morris, presumed to have originating time approx 3:00am, Aruba Time.  (I note Shizaru's f/u from NE stating call done between 1:00am - 5:00am.)

IMO, among things to consider is "rumoured" code contained in words of female caller: "I don't know these people..." and to couple w/ following:

1.  The news reports (from May31 - June4) citing Jan van der Straaten and his downplaying of abduction/kidnapping as being part of any potential crime.

2.  The unusal words of Spencer Bachus made during press conference in which he requested the "heavy" involvement of FBI:  he said the family is aware of "disturbing details" and further stated "this was not a teen (Natalee) who wandered off..."

3.  The headline on first posters hung on island upon arrival of HT family: kidnapped.

IMO, it was neither unusual, nor unexpected, for family to make existence of call known to media, etc during interviews, because assuming "code" is true, the real meaning of the words in the vm message remained unknown for many months after May 30, 2005.

HAMMER - On July 5th, 2006 Gunslinger indicated that he had heard the message and that it was most definately Natalee.  I'm hoping Gunslinger will come back online soon today to clear up HOW he heard the message.

Hearing that call was the spike driven through my heart, and the reason I have so much suppressed hate.  I KNOW others heard it.  Much was discussed about it.  It has since vanished from the radar screen of msm.  There is a reason for that.  I cannot confirm it was on Greta, but it was on Fox.  

I will NEVER forget those words as long as I live.  

I can only say that those punks better hope I never get diagnosed with an incurrable disease.

Wait...are you saying you heard the call on Fox News?  Th actual call?

[flyingmermaid]

Later!

 AWE FM  that is truly sad and if I may I will send up smoke tonite for her and her family  if ya can please post her first name if your ok with that  if not the great father will already know who she is .
  May you also find strength in dealing with the situation ,
   Jerry from Ohio

Her name is Dawn (the receptionist) and I just feel so sorry for her she was crying something pitiful!

Her daughter (Dawn's) is expecting a baby in just a few weeks and that lovely little boy will never know his Great Grandma!

Her Mom had a vast # of health problems including some renal failure.

[ala_gunslinger]

Cell Call Message...

I see call remains subject of discussion, as it should be.  And to be clear, I refer to vm message to MBHS student phone: William Morris, presumed to have originating time approx 3:00am, Aruba Time.  (I note Shizaru's f/u from NE stating call done between 1:00am - 5:00am.)

IMO, among things to consider is "rumoured" code contained in words of female caller: "I don't know these people..." and to couple w/ following:

1.  The news reports (from May31 - June4) citing Jan van der Straaten and his downplaying of abduction/kidnapping as being part of any potential crime.

2.  The unusal words of Spencer Bachus made during press conference in which he requested the "heavy" involvement of FBI:  he said the family is aware of "disturbing details" and further stated "this was not a teen (Natalee) who wandered off..."

3.  The headline on first posters hung on island upon arrival of HT family: kidnapped.

IMO, it was neither unusual, nor unexpected, for family to make existence of call known to media, etc during interviews, because assuming "code" is true, the real meaning of the words in the vm message remained unknown for many months after May 30, 2005.

HAMMER - On July 5th, 2006 Gunslinger indicated that he had heard the message and that it was most definately Natalee.  I'm hoping Gunslinger will come back online soon today to clear up HOW he heard the message.

Hearing that call was the spike driven through my heart, and the reason I have so much suppressed hate.  I KNOW others heard it.  Much was discussed about it.  It has since vanished from the radar screen of msm.  There is a reason for that.  I cannot confirm it was on Greta, but it was on Fox.  

I will NEVER forget those words as long as I live.  

I can only say that those punks better hope I never get diagnosed with an incurrable disease.

Wait...are you saying you heard the call on Fox News?  Th actual call?

That is correct.

[Easywriter]

Old, decrepit Easy with a heart problem brought on by age!  FU!

[Shizaru]

If per say we need to wait the 60 day rule.....could someone post when that 60 day limit would be up concerning NY judge....?? So many stories to follow now and so much to swallow.....any idea on her ruling??

What is the consensus on the long wait, is it

good sign for plaintiffs, shows she is taking it seriously, and if she were inclined to dismiss she would have done so already

or

bad sign, shows she is not taking it seriously, she has put it it at the bottom of the pile

[thirdstrike]

Wait...are you saying you heard the call on Fox News?  Th actual call?

That is correct.

Has anyone else heard it on Fox?  To my knowledge, I have yet to hear this from anyone else.  When (about) was this aired?

[Nut44x4]

Cell Call Message...

I see call remains subject of discussion, as it should be.  And to be clear, I refer to vm message to MBHS student phone: William Morris, presumed to have originating time approx 3:00am, Aruba Time.  (I note Shizaru's f/u from NE stating call done between 1:00am - 5:00am.)

IMO, among things to consider is "rumoured" code contained in words of female caller: "I don't know these people..." and to couple w/ following:

1.  The news reports (from May31 - June4) citing Jan van der Straaten and his downplaying of abduction/kidnapping as being part of any potential crime.

2.  The unusal words of Spencer Bachus made during press conference in which he requested the "heavy" involvement of FBI:  he said the family is aware of "disturbing details" and further stated "this was not a teen (Natalee) who wandered off..."

3.  The headline on first posters hung on island upon arrival of HT family: kidnapped.

IMO, it was neither unusual, nor unexpected, for family to make existence of call known to media, etc during interviews, because assuming "code" is true, the real meaning of the words in the vm message remained unknown for many months after May 30, 2005.

HAMMER - On July 5th, 2006 Gunslinger indicated that he had heard the message and that it was most definately Natalee.  I'm hoping Gunslinger will come back online soon today to clear up HOW he heard the message.

Hearing that call was the spike driven through my heart, and the reason I have so much suppressed hate.  I KNOW others heard it.  Much was discussed about it.  It has since vanished from the radar screen of msm.  There is a reason for that.  I cannot confirm it was on Greta, but it was on Fox.  

I will NEVER forget those words as long as I live.  

I can only say that those punks better hope I never get diagnosed with an incurrable disease.

Wait...are you saying you heard the call on Fox News?  Th actual call?

That is correct.

Ok....then why did you make it sound like you heard the actual call?? I sure do wish I was on the drugs I wish I was on....cause this is where rumors start......I HATE RUMORS! I WANT TRUTH.

[casa]

hhmm, I don't recall the actual call being played on any news program.

[klaasend]

Gunslinger - check your email please, TIA

[thirdstrike]

hhmm, I don't recall the actual call being played on any news program.

That was my thought.  I don't think it was...