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NANCY GRACE

Mother Officially Named Suspect in Missing Toddler Case

Aired October 1, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police formally name mom, Casey Anthony, the prime suspect in 3-year-old Caylee`s disappearance. But why now? What do they know that has tipped the scales?

And tonight, primetime exclusive, the Zenaida Gonzalez who mom, Casey, named to police as Caylee`s kidnapper, is with us live. Now she`s naming someone, mom, Casey Anthony, in a lawsuit, this as she struggles to carry on a normal life, even receiving death threats after being branded the kidnapper of little Caylee.

And tonight, more stunning police interrogation tapes released. As we wait for formal charges tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another shocking development in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. Just hours ago, a spokesman with the Orange County sheriff`s office confirmed that 22-year-old tot mom, Casey Anthony, is now a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a suspect?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one of their clearest messages yet that they believe only one person can solve this mystery, Orange County investigators confirm that Casey Anthony is now a suspect in her daughter, Caylee`s, disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is the -- our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, finally that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to you and bring this to an end.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today Casey`s lawyer, Jose Baez, told us he sees no difference between investigators calling Casey a person of interest, as they have for more than two months, or now a suspect. He declined our request for an interview. Meanwhile, investigators tell us they`re reaching a milestone in the number of leads they`ve received in the search for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking at all of the tips that we`ve received, close to almost 5,000 tips that we`ve received.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any credible evidence that she`s been sighted, anything along those lines?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one word, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say sometimes it appears that those alleged sightings are offered up only to take attention off of Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information sometimes seems like it`s a smokescreen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And sources tell WESH (ph), too, that sheriff`s detectives and FDLE and FBI agents have followed up on leads in almost every state in the nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Hollywood superstar Heather Locklear busted, allegedly caught driving under the influence, upscale California suburbs. A 991 call claims the TV star spotted driving erratically. Police report Locklear completely disoriented when cops find her BMW blocking traffic. But now claims surface Locklear was set up. Tonight, the Heather Locklear 911 call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911 emergency. What are you reporting?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A drunk driver.

911 OPERATOR: Where at?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At the Live Oaks Road and what is -- is this East Valley Road? East Valley Road and Live Oaks Road in Montecito. The person -- it`s a woman. She just pulled over.

911 OPERATOR: What direction on Live Oaks, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s pointing south, right by East Valley Drive. Can I give you the plate number?

911 OPERATOR: Sure. What kind of car is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a black BMW (DELETED)

911 OPERATOR: What are they doing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they just pulled -- she was drunk at this -- we were at the market. She was drunk in the market, and she got in the car. And then we saw her pulled over. She`s now pulled over, and she`s -- she wandered up and down the street, but now she`s back in the driver`s seat.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was actress Heather Locklear set up? The star was arrested on suspicion of DUI and prescription drugs outside Santa Barbara this weekend. Now the entertainment site TMZ reports the woman who called 911 and tipped off the paparazzi is a former staffer for "US Weekly," an entertainment magazine. The Web site said she`s also under investigation by the FBI. That`s the caller. She claims she saw Locklear driving erratically along the road in Montecito, and reportedly, there are other witnesses to back up those claims. The case is now in the hands of prosecutors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace, I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments just moments ago in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orange County authorities have declared the tot mom Casey Anthony is now a suspect in the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee. Authorities maintain that Anthony has continually lied to them about what happened to her daughter and has refused to speak further with investigators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County investigators confirm that Casey Anthony is now a suspect in her daughter, Caylee`s, disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is the -- our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, finally that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, how come everybody`s saying you`re lying?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Because nobody`s (DELETED) listening to anything that I`m saying. The media completely misconstrued everything that I said. The (DELETED) detectives pulled (DELETED) They got all of their information from me. Yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee. They`ve already said that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well...

CASEY ANTHONY: They arrested me because they said that...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because they said that the person that you dropped Caylee with doesn`t even exist.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because -- oh, look, they can`t find her in the Florida database. She`s not just from Florida. If they would actually listen to anything that I would have said to them, they would have had -- they maybe could have tracked her down. They haven`t listened to a (DELETED) thing that I`ve said.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Mom, Casey Anthony, named a suspect not in a fraud case, not a bad check case, but in the disappearance of her little girl, 3-year-old Caylee. What do you believe tipped the scales?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That`s tough to say. You know, that`s something that`s internal to the investigation. And throughout this investigation, they`ve always, you know, kept that close inside and not really let on. We do know that there was DNA evidence found in the trunk of the car, and you know, there was other evidence. Caylee`s hair was actually found in the car. So you have to imagine those are some of the things that have added to their decision to now call her a suspect in the disappearance of her daughter.

GRACE: To famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a member of the Casey Anthony defense team. Well, your client has been named a suspect, a formal suspect, the only formal suspect in the disappearance of 3-year-old Caylee. We`re not talking about a bad check, Koby (ph). What say you?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I think that there`s a lot of evidence raising a lot of issues about the disappearance of this 3- year-old. I think there`s physical evidence. There`s accumulating information that she has not been truthful with the police. And so this is a very challenging case for the defense. There`s no doubt about that. And obviously, I think that people are expecting the charges to be -- to be brought fairly soon.

GRACE: Does the defense team expect a murder charge?

KOBILINSKY: I can`t answer that for the defense team. I would anticipate that those charges make sense, given what we`ve heard the sheriff indicate, that they can certainly have a case without a body. And they certainly have physical evidence that supports an allegation. So I believe there will be charges.

GRACE: And speaking of what the sheriff had to say, here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. She is our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, finally that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

We`re looking at all the tips that we`ve received, close to almost 5,000 tips that we`ve received.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any credible evidence that she`s been sighted, anything along those lines?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one word, no.

The information sometimes seems like it`s a smokescreen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a member of the Casey Anthony defense team. Koby, you mentioned physical evidence accumulating. What physical evidence?

KOBILINSKY: Well, we continuously are hearing about hair in the trunk. We know that there has been air sampling tested by the University of Tennessee, the "body farm," indicating that there may be chemicals indicating decomposition. I think the presence of hair -- again, we keep hearing about a banding pattern.

Again, no official reports that I`ve seen, but this kind of evidence is certainly serious and challenging, and it could be interpreted as decomposition of a body. And so I think that this would support the allegations that we keep hearing about.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, everyone. We are taking your calls live. The breaks news tonight, mom, Casey Anthony, has been formally named a suspect in her daughter`s disappearance. It`s been a long time coming, and it`s finally happened.

With us tonight out of New York, Alan Ripka, veteran trial lawyer, and defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Renee Rockwell. Alan Ripka, what is the difference legally between a person of interest and a suspect?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, a person of interest is someone that the police are just thinking about, obviously, someone that they think could be involved. They have no evidence to tie that person into the crime. A suspect is someone that the police have some sort of evidence or a greater belief that they are involved in this crime or committed this crime. And they`re taking a giant step forward to call her a suspect.

GRACE: Everyone, in just a few moments, we`re going to be joined by Zenaida Gonzalez. The tot mom, Casey Anthony, pointed the finger at her to police as being Caylee`s kidnapper. It has nearly ruined her life.

Back to you, Renee Rockwell. The last time you joined us, no matter what question I asked you, every time, you gave the same answer, There`s not an indictment yet. OK. I`m one of those crazy people that believes in second chances. Here we go. In your mind, does this up the ante for her to crack and tell the truth? She`s been formally named a suspect.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think she`s going to crack, Nancy. I think that the attorney is going to handle her the same way whether she`s a person of interest or a suspect. He is not going to let her talk. And she`s not going to just come forward and say, OK, fine, I did it, here`s where the body is.

GRACE: Renee, if a lawyer`s client comes in and reveals that they have hidden a body, what is the defense lawyer`s duty at that point?

ROCKWELL: He`s now in a predicament because he`s got two concerns. One is the ethical obligation to not continue a crime of hiding a body...

GRACE: You know, Renee, just cut through it. What do you do in that position?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, you need to get another attorney on board because now she`s admitted something to him, and he can`t just go forward and divulge that.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you in the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re our biggest help. You`re going to be our biggest help in solving this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have nothing to go off of. That`s the problem. I have perspective ideas of maybe where she could go. She could have gone back up to New York. She could have gone up to Jacksonville, where we have a friend. She could have gone down to Miami, where her mom and her sister lives now. She could have gone anywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does she have any children?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re talking about the baby-sitter, right. She doesn`t have any children?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could she have children? Is it something that she could have done and...

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m pretty sure that she could, but it was never anything that came up.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Everyone, the tot mom, mom, Casey Anthony, has formally been named a suspect in her daughter`s disappearance. It`s been a long time coming, as we wait for formal charges to come down. I`m not talking about a bad check card -- a bad check charge or a fraud charge. This is in relation to the disappearance of 3-year-old Caylee Anthony. We are taking your calls live.

We`ve got a very special guest joining us tonight, the Zenaida Gonzalez that Casey Anthony named as the kidnapper of her little girl, the Zenaida Gonzalez that was at Sawgrass apartments. In the most twisted turn of events, there actually is a Zenaida Gonzalez, and she is with us tonight. Let me at the beginning say she is not a kidnapper. She has never met Casey or Caylee Anthony, has no knowledge of this case whatsoever. But after this, her life has been devastated.

Ms. Gonzalez, thank you for being with us.

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, ALLEGED BABY-SITTER: You`re welcome.

GRACE: When did you first realize that you were a part of a potential murder investigation?

GONZALEZ: When I received a phone call from the detective.

GRACE: And what did they say?

GONZALEZ: That if I was the Zenaida Gonzalez that had -- that had the two children and was driving a certain car. And I was, like, yes. And then he was -- he said, OK, well, then you are -- we need to speak to you because you`re a suspect in a disappearance of Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: Oh, good Lord in heaven! What was your immediate reaction? Had you ever even heard of Caylee Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No. I was in shock.

GRACE: Where were you when you received this phone call from a detective?

GONZALEZ: I was actually -- I was out in the store with my daughters.

GRACE: What, they called you on your cell?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Amazing how they got the information. Now, had you been at Sawgrass Apartments earlier?

GONZALEZ: I had just went that one time to go look at an apartment.

GRACE: And did you look at that vacant apartment?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And such a twist. To your attorney, John Morgan, joining us from Orlando. He is handling this defamation lawsuit against mom, Casey Anthony. Have you considered, John Morgan, how Casey Anthony got the information that a Zenaida Gonzalez was at Sawgrass Apartments, at that particular apartment, looking at that particular apartment? How did she get her hands on that?

JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Well, when she made the visit to the Sawgrass Apartments, she filled out a visitor`s card. She put her name down and her two children`s names down. So we suspect that she may have received the information that way.

GRACE: I still am perplexed as to how Casey Anthony got that information. I know that she knew people that lived in the area. Isn`t that correct, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s correct. She knew Annie Dowling (ph), who lived in apartment 218, and she knew Dante (ph), who also lived in 218. And on that particular day, she wasn`t driving her car. She was driving Tony`s Jeep with a New York plate on it. And she had been out to visit Chris (ph) earlier in the day. So it`s not like she was driving her car and it would be recognized if she was in and around the apartments. She was actually driving a Jeep that belonged to Tony.

GRACE: Back to Zenaida Gonzalez, joining us tonight, and her attorney, a veteran lawyer there in Orlando, Florida, John Morgan. Ms. Gonzalez, when did you -- after you received this phone call, you`re out shopping with two of your -- you have six children, right?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Like you need another child.

GONZALEZ: No, I don`t.

GRACE: OK. Six -- I think an even half dozen is a good number. I`ve got two, and I think that that may be enough for me. Ms. Gonzalez, you get this phone call from cops that tell you you`re a suspect in a kidnapping. What did you do then?

GONZALEZ: I was kind of in shock. I didn`t know what to do.

GRACE: These are shots of the children of Zenaida Gonzalez. Well, what did you do, just go home? Did you call a lawyer?

GONZALEZ: I just went home. I just -- they said they wanted to meet with me, and I just went home and I said, OK, then just come by. I`ll be there in 20, 30 minutes.

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing. They never got that kind of cooperation from Casey Anthony. So the cops show up. Were your children at home when the cops came to Mommy`s door?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: That`s not a good childhood memory.

GONZALEZ: No.

GRACE: What did they say when they got there?

GONZALEZ: They just -- - they asked me questions, if I knew -- they asked me first if I had went to the Sawgrass Apartments on a certain date. And I said, Yes, I did. And they asked, OK, and what is the car that you was driving? So I showed them the car outside. And I said, That was the car I was driving. And he said, OK, then, you know, we want to show you some pictures and see if you recognize them. And they showed me pictures of Casey and Caylee. And I didn`t know who they were. So I told them I didn`t know. And then that`s when they informed me -- well, they informed me that she had given my name -- she had said that she had given me her daughter for me to baby-sit.

GRACE: Had you ever baby-sat for Casey Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Had you ever baby-sat for anyone that worked at Universal?

GONZALEZ: No, ma`am. I`m not a baby-sitter.

GRACE: What do you do for a living?

GONZALEZ: I clean.

GRACE: And somehow, you`ve gotten sucked into this. Back to your attorney, John Morgan. Describe to me the lawsuit that you filed on behalf of Ms. Gonzalez against mom, Casey Anthony.

MORGAN: Well, when I met Zenaida, she was a basket case. She was fired from her job. She has had trouble finding jobs. Just the name Zenaida Gonzalez is a red flag. And she said, you know, What can I do? And I said, Listen, you`ve been charged with kidnapping or murder. And you can do two things. You can do nothing or do something. And I said, This girl has been pushing the police, and pushing her parents, and now pushing you. And what you can do is push back. And that`s -- and that`s why we filed the defamation lawsuit.

GRACE: You know, there aren`t many employers that want someone accused of kidnapping and possibly a murder.

MORGAN: Exactly. Exactly.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t tell me anybody that can find Caylee? Nobody.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, because every number that I`ve tried, every number that I`ve called is disconnected. Nothing. I can`t get ahold of anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that -- that girl was the last person to have her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She was the last person to have her. That was the last time I saw Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know where she was from? With a name like Soraida (ph) or whatever...

CASEY ANTHONY: Zenaida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zenaida.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s mixed. She`s Puerto Rican and her father`s black. She`s from New York. From what I`ve been told, that`s where she was born.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: She moved to Miami. She went to U of F.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: To psychologist Caryn Stark. I`m always amazed when I listen to mom, Casey Anthony. The lies get more and more fantastic, more intricate, more elaborate, more detailed. What does that mean?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It just means that she has a psychopathic personality, Nancy. Isn`t it intriguing? I mean, the woman is cunning and crafty. She`s a wonderful liar, narcissistic. She really fits. She`s classically a person with that kind of a pathology.

GRACE: Ms. Gonzalez, have you ever gotten an apology from Casey Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Have you ever heard from her or her lawyers?

GONZALEZ: No.

GRACE: Do you expect to be called at trial? You`re on the witness list.

GONZALEZ: I expect to, and I will show up because I haven`t done anything.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: 31 days. It`s been 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Who has her? Do you have a name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Who is that? Babysitter?

CASEY ANTHONY: She has been my nanny for about a year and a half. Almost two years.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: And why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: I have been looking for her, and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK. What is the 3-year-old`s name?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Caylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Caylee Anthony?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: How long has she been missing for?

CINDY ANTHONY: I have not seen her since the 7th of June.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What is her date of birth?

CINDY ANTHONY: 8/9/2000 -- god, she is 3 -- 2005. Caylee`s missing. Caylee`s missing. Casey says Zanny took her a month ago. She`s been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey is a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE: Correct. She is the person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, if only that she will make up and say, let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

We`re looking at all the tips that we`ve received, close to almost 5,000 tips that we`ve received.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Any credible evidence that she has been sighted, anything along those lines?

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE: In one word, no. The information sometimes seems like it`s a smoke screen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, just as we go to air, police formally name mom Casey Anthony as the prime suspect in the disappearance of 3-year- old Caylee. It`s been a long-time coming.

What does it mean? We are taking your calls live. Out to Isha in Georgia, hi, Isha.

ISHA, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

ISHA: My question is -- first I just want to thank you for doing what you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

ISHA: You are awesome and I love you. But my question is, at one time we heard that the police may have come across some clothing, and we haven`t -- not heard anymore about that. Have they been able to link those clothing to Caylee or Casey?

GRACE: Yes, Isha, you`ve got an excellent memory, that was at the beginning of the investigation. Not linked to Caylee. Not linked to Casey -- mom Casey Anthony. There was some clothing and a backpack found. Not linked.

Excellent memory.

Out to Angie in Virginia, hi, Angie.

ANGIE, VIRGINIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

ANGIE: With Casey being a pathological liar, and if she was to confess and they find Caylee`s body, would DNA test or an autopsy confirm or deny her story as to what happened?

GRACE: What about it, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, and author of "Killing for Sport," do you believe that forensics would prove or disprove whatever story Casey Anthony may come up with? Such as the drowning in the swimming pool story.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, Nancy, at this point, it`s been probably way too long to prove that kind of thing. I do think with all of the circumstantial evidence they have, they can very well prove that this was a homicide.

And I think -- one thing I think people are asking, why are the police looking for Caylee when they know she is dead? Why all these checks? And I can tell you why. Because they`re working toward that prosecution right now, with their evidence that they have, and they`re going to have to prove to the defense and to that jury that they tried everything to find that girl, and they could not find her any place, no matter how many tips they followed.

So that proves that Caylee is not alive. And I think that`s why they`re working so hard on those tips...

GRACE: Well put.

BROWN: . they don`t believe in.

GRACE: Out to our producer standing by at the Anthony home there in Orlando, Florida, Natisha Lance.

Natisha, I was listening carefully to what the police said today. They mentioned that they believe that many of the 5,000 tips they have received are actually smoke screens. What did they mean by that, and why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they feel that a lot of these tips are coming in from people who think they may have seen Caylee, however, they are not actually Caylee.

And a lot of these tips, too, have come from the Anthony household, from the Anthony family, that being turned over to police. But they`re coming from different areas. They`re not following along the same line of facts that police actually have, so they are smoke screens, as Captain (INAUDIBLE) described, because they are not leading them to Caylee.

GRACE: Out to John in New York, hi, John.

JOHN, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Your children are beautiful. I just wanted to ask, we saw a lot of the Web sites that Casey had visited, and most of them were escort services and sex sites. Have they looked into her possibly working as an escort?

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, there were hits on sex sites and escort services. What about it?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, the investigators haven`t -- you know, had said if they suspect that she was involved in that -- any kind of that business. But we do know she was searching -- doing missing person search sites, and they`ve also said that she was looking up for information on chloroform.

So, you know, these all add to the investigation and stuff they`ve compiled and, you know, now used all of that to call her a suspect today.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Katie in Maryland. Hi, Katie.

KATIE, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

KATIE: OK. My question is, isn`t it possible that she could have taken on the identity of this Zenaida Gonzalez, you know, like the dual personality type thing, in this crazy mind that she has?

GRACE: You know, Caryn, that`s an excellent question. It`s almost like we heard earlier from another tape, audio tape, she does take on the identity of each boyfriend she is with. One is religious, she`s religious. I think that was Jesse Grund. One smokes pot, she spokes pot.

You know, whomever she is with, she is like a chameleon and becomes like them. But I don`t see her rising to the level of a Sybil split personality-esque defense.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t think so, Nancy, although it is a very, very good question. This is somebody who -- the reason she takes on everybody else`s personality, her boyfriend`s, is because she has no true personality of her own.

However, she used this woman as part of one of her weaving pathological lies that she does, and she came up with a name and then put it in very craftily to weave the story.

GRACE: You know, she has such an elaborate story about Zenaida Gonzalez. Tonight with us we have the Zenaida Gonzalez attached to Sawgrass Apartment and her attorney out of Orland. He knows his way around the courtroom, John Morgan is with us.

John Morgan, you have filed a lawsuit against mom Casey Anthony. FYI, she was siphoning gas from her parents` car. She could not fill up a tank of gas. Not that there is anything wrong with that. She hasn`t worked in God knows when.

Do you really think you`re going to get any type of a money settlement or money judgment against her that you can enforce?

JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, HANDLING DEFAMATION SUIT AGAINST TOT MOM: Well, the first and foremost -- this is really not about money. This is about.

GRACE: Well, that`s good, because there is not any.

MORGAN: Well, this is about Zenaida Gonzalez`s good name.

GRACE: True.

MORGAN: Now, however, remember this. There`s all sorts of rumor and rumblings -- there is rumors and rumblings that they may have received significant money from a network for licensing fees. There is rumors of a movie deal. There are rumors of, you know, all sorts of offers.

GRACE: Well, John, you`re very wise, John Morgan. "Lifetime" has denied any such suggestion that they have a movie in the works. But I can guarantee you, by the time this is all over, somebody will make a movie related to this.

You`re absolutely correct about that.

MORGAN: Well, I know -- I know for a fact, magazines have been approached by members to receive money.

GRACE: By members of what?

MORGAN: Of her team to receive moneys. And first and foremost, though, if there`s never a dime to be had, Zenaida Gonzalez gets to stand up on a platform that Casey Anthony put her on, and say, you know what, you put me up on this platform, and now I`m going to clear my good name.

GRACE: Is it true, Miss Gonzalez, that you have actually received death threats?

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, MISSING TOT CAYLEE`S ALLEGED "BABYSITTER": Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: What happened?

GONZALEZ: Well, they call me. They call me about -- because my number went out public.

GRACE: And said what?

GONZALEZ: And they called and -- and they called me and told me what they`re going do to me or do to my kids what I did to the little girl. And that whenever they see me, they`re going to hurt me. It`s been crazy.

MORGAN: And also, Nancy, part of her profile that we`ve found interesting is like the Susan Smith. When Susan Smith killed her kids, the first thing she said is a black man took the kids.

Now they come in and say this Puerto Rican nanny came in. She kind of played this race card right off the bat to kind of inflame the public. And I think that all plays into her profile.

GRACE: Well, John Morgan, attorney out of Orlando, and Miss Zenaida Gonzalez, I wish you the best and I`m sorry for what you`ve been through, Miss Gonzalez.

GONZALEZ: Thank you.

GRACE: Everyone, at your request, here are some pictures I took of the twins. Here they are at the park. Here they are swinging. Yes, we found the swing set here in Manhattan. That`s the traffic rushing by behind them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: 911 Emergency, what are you reporting?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A drunk driver?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Where at?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: At the Live Oaks Road and -- what is this -- is this East Valley Road? East Valley Road and Live Oaks Road in Montecito. The person is a woman. She just pulled over.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What direction on Live Oaks, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: She is pointing south, right, at East Valley Drive. Can I give you the plate number?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Sure. What kind of car is it?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: It`s a black BMW (BLEEPED).

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What are they doing?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Well, they`re just -- she was drunk at this -- we were at the market. She was drunk in the market, she got in the car, and then we saw her pulled over. She is now pulled over, and she is walking -- she wandered up and down the street, but now she is back in the driver`s seat.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Alrighty. You said she -- so she is pulled over to the right or to the left?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: She is on the right side.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK. Hold on.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Oh, she is revving her engine. What is she doing?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What is your name, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: My name is Jill.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK, Jill, we`ll notify officers in the area. We`ll put a broadcast out for the vehicle. I need you to maintain a safe distance away. Are you following the car?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: We`re following her. It looks like she`s just revving her engine.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK. I need to ask you to stop following the car. We know where they are and we have a license plate. OK, we don`t want to.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: What`s that?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: We know where they are, and we have a license plate, so you guys need to stop following, because the minute that she thinks that you`re following, it -- you`ll be a danger to her if she thinks that you`re following her and she might run into something.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Oh, OK. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: All right, thanks a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Good bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Heather Locklear busted for allegedly driving under the influence.

Out to Tom O`Neil, senior editor with "In Touch Weekly," what happened, Tom?

TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: Well, it was about 5:00 Saturday night. Heather was driving from this market to.

GRACE: First of all, 5:00 is not at nighttime. Number one.

O`NEIL: That`s true, absolutely.

GRACE: OK, go ahead.

O`NEIL: OK, good point.

GRACE: So was it dark?

O`NEIL: No, no, it wasn`t dark yet but.

GRACE: OK.

O`NEIL: And she`s been acting erratically, driving back and forth over a pair of sunglasses in the parking lot of this store.

GRACE: That`s not a crime.

O`NEIL: It`s a BMW, black BMW.

GRACE: That`s not a crime to drive over some sunglasses?

O`NEIL: No, not at all. But then she gets in the car and she starts -- she pulls over at one point and she`s out staggering in traffic, as you heard in that one call there, according to the description.

But that`s not what everybody is quite concerned about, Nancy. It`s that there is now a belief that this concerned citizen who made this call might be a cause of concern herself.

The -- there is an allegation that she made a second call right after this, to a paparazzi agency. There is the suspicious that she has ties to Heather`s love rival, Denise Richards, and there is evidence that she`s under investigation by the FBI.

GRACE: Whoa, it`s complicated.

O`NEIL: Very complicated.

GRACE: So Tom O`Neil, what`s the connection between the 911 caller, the female caller, Jill, and her love rival, Denise Richards?

O`NEIL: Well, Jill Ishkanian used to work for "Us Weekly" magazine. She was actually a tabloid reporter. She left there to start her own photo agency that just coincidentally had a lot of pictures of Denise Richards that were for sale.

So that suggests a chummy relationship between the two of them. So for her, of all people then to be -- happen to be calling the police, catching Heather in this naughty moment, well, it seems suspicious.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka -- weigh in, Renee.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I want to know if the police actually saw Heather driving. If it`s only this woman that saw her driving, they`re going to have trouble.

GRACE: Alan?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It doesn`t make a difference who called the police, if, in fact, she was under the influence of something, she`s going to be responsible and guilty of the crime.

GRACE: Ripka, you`re absolutely correct. Regardless of any nefarious intent behind the original phone call, somebody wanted to get a picture of Heather Locklear, somebody has a grudge against Heather Locklear, don`t care.

If she were under the influence at that time, that`s the problem. I don`t care who called it in. I`m glad she called it in. It would have been a lot worse if Locklear had run over somebody or crashed into a tree or hurt yourself.

With me right now Lieutenant Dane Lobb from the California Highway Patrol, Santa Barbara.

Lieutenant, thank you for being with us.

LT. DANE LOBB, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL, SANTA BARBARA: Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Lieutenant, what happened? I`ve got the bare bones of the police report here. It`s my understanding it was not alcohol-related. That she passed a breathalyzer on the scene.

LOBB: Well, you have a press release.

GRACE: Right.

LOBB: You don`t have a police report, because I have the original police report here in front of me.

GRACE: Right. It just says Department of California Highway Patrol, it looks like a police report. But I notice there`s not a police report number on there. There`s not a DOB, it`s not signed by an officer, so clearly, it`s not an authentic police report.

But if you could answer the original question.

LOBB: It`s a news release. Yes, it`s a news release.

GRACE: OK. I`m glad to get that settled. Did she pass a breathalyzer?

LOBB: Yes, she did.

GRACE: So it was not alcohol. What then do police believe is the substance under which she was under the influence?

LOBB: Well, we haven`t identified what substances or substance or substances she had ingested. But we believe that she was under the influence of controlled substance.

GRACE: What did the police observe when they arrived at the scene?

LOBB: They found Miss Locklear in her vehicle, in the driver`s seat of her vehicle, stopped within the traffic lane, sitting there in her car.

GRACE: And what, if it anything, did she do to suggest she was under the influence of drugs or alcohol?

LOBB: Well, just like you would expect, the police, when they show up and they find a vehicle stopped in the middle of the road, were going to ask, why are you stopped here in the middle of the road, what`s going on?

And the -- when our officer conducted that investigation, Miss Locklear`s answers were clearly -- made it that she was not coherent and able to answer routine questions in a manner that a sober or prudent person would be able to answer questions.

GRACE: To Marvette Britto, PR brand strategist of the Britto Agency - - Marvette, didn`t she just come out of rehab?

MARVETTE BRITTO, FOUNDER, BRITTO AGENCY: She did. She just came out of rehab. And this is clearly an incident where she relapsed. And -- she needs to get help and perhaps she was stopping to gather her thoughts, to collect herself.

GRACE: But the rehab was allegedly for anxiety.

BRITTO: Well, whatever the anxiety was, whatever the issue was, she`s spiraling in public. So clearly there`s a problem. There`s an issue that needs to be addressed.

And like you said earlier, you know, thank God this caller did call in, because clearly she needed help and she hadn`t called anyone to help her.

GRACE: Marvette Britto joining us from the Britto Agency here in New York.

To Dr. Marty Makary at Johns Hopkins -- Dr. Makary, how easy is it to take too much prescription medication?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, the medication is given to patients with anxiety and depression. And by definition, those are people at risk for overdosing.

Look, Xanax and these other anti-anxiety medications are highly addictive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAMMER: Heather Locklear busted under suspicion of DUI.

Back to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly." It`s my understanding this is her first offense.

O`NEIL: Yes, her first offense. But we`ve had hints, Nancy, that there were serious problems with substance abuse before.

GRACE: Did you say you`ve heard?

O`NEIL: Yes. Well, back in March there were reports that her psychiatrist called paramedics to the house when it was believed that Heather was -- had overdosed, that it was later denied that there was an obviously suspicion scene there.

And our sources at the magazine tell us that when she went into the rehab in Arizona for depression and anxiety, we heard from her friend.

GRACE: Well, Tom O`Neil, as much as I respect you and your magazine, "In Touch Weekly," sources at the magazine don`t come into court. I`m asking you.

O`NEIL: OK.

GRACE: . did she have a record, the answer is no. Correct?

O`NEIL: Correct. Absolutely.

GRACE: OK. Back to Lieutenant Lobb with the California Highway Patrol, Santa Barbara.

Lieutenant Lobb, was she -- cooperative with you?

LOBB: Yes, ma`am, she was very cooperative.

GRACE: You know, I -- I`ve seen the pictures of the arrest. She was standing on both her feet. Did she do one of the test where you walk the line or say your ABCs?

LOBB: She did. She did what`s called modified position of attention. She did standing on one foot. She did a walking test. And she was -- had a great deal of difficulty completing any of the tests in a safe manner.

GRACE: Marvette.

LOBB: And caused the officer great concern.

GRACE: Marvette Britto, very quickly. You know you do a sex tape or get a DUI in Hollywood, it only skyrockets your career. What will this do to her?

BRITTO: Well, I think Heather Locklear is, certainly, America`s sweetheart. She really needs to get help. And I think we need to hear from a representative as to why she exhibited this irrational behavior.

GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop and remember, Army Specialist Arturo Huerta-Cruz, 23, Clearwater, Florida, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Army Achievement Medal, and Order of the Dragon, one of the highest honors for members of the chemical corps.

A grad of St. Petersburg College. Loved soccer and adventure. Dreamed of becoming a citizen. Leaves behind parents Pascual and Maria, brother Humberto.

Arturo Huerta-Cruz, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you, and tonight, a special good night from Atlanta friends of the show, Cleo, Charlotte and Tristan.

See you tomorrow night -- oh, he`s precious -- until tomorrow, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/01/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony`s Ex-Fiance Speaks Out

Aired October 2, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. He was set to marry tot mom Casey Anthony, even named as the biological father on little Caylee, but with accusations flying that he kidnapped 3-year-old Caylee, Jesse Grund finally breaks silence. Tonight, Grund makes a public plea for mom, Casey, to stop the lying and report what really happened to little Caylee. This as tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, defense team publicly and brazenly announces she will not tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance, claiming, quote, "It`s not in her best interest."

All the while, a report emerges a woman similar to mom, Casey, was spotted leaving a heavily wooded area near Orlando International Airport. And we learn police call off searches for little Caylee, signaling their belief the little girl is dead. Tot mom, Casey Anthony, named the prime suspect in the disappearance day two. As mom, Casey Anthony, enjoys her freedom tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. She is the -- our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward finally, that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I have, like, seven pages of stuff that I asked him. You know how Lee is doing it? I did the same thing with Jesse because he was my first -- he was my first person I thought of that had a motive, that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone -- that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey had lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now, that she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not. We can all tell that from the last couple years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word "diabolical" to describe the way she lies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had the child. She was the last one to see the child, and we want to know what information she had that is valid, that is factual, that is credible, not just what she has fabricated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, police and now the feds on high alert for not one, not two, not three, four children kidnapped in Missouri, all four classified as being in extreme danger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities are frantically searching for four Missouri children who are believed to be in extreme and imminent danger. Police say the four children were abducted by their own mother, 39-year-old Shirley Riggs (ph), who does not have custody of any of the children. According to cops, Riggs was having an unsupervised overnight visit with the children when she put them in a 1992 Dodge Caravan and fled the area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s been setting up this house all summer to get the children, and it keep gets delayed and delayed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not the first time Riggs has taken the children, with reports saying this is now the fourth time she has taken them, the first three times out of state. Police are now on the alert in Denver, Colorado, and Oklahoma, hoping to find Riggs and return the children to safety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the information lead us quickly to some valid information, and she has not done so.

CINDY ANTHONY: He was in my home every day, and I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage. He took it out on me one day a couple times while they were engaged. And from the day Caylee was born, he was in her life and he stayed in her life off and on. And Casey doesn`t -- she gets very, like, Stay away from him, Mom, like, that kind of thing. And even if you guys watched our taped interview, I asked her specifically about people, and she -- every -- the only person she said, Don`t talk to, she said, Stay away from Jesse. And she looked frightened when she said that.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom blurts out something kind of puts you in an embarrassing way. Can you tell me about that again?

GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something, and I stuck up for Casey. I said, Please don`t do this while I`m here. Don`t talk to her like that. You know I love your daughter.

And then she immediately just throws Casey under the bus, in proverbial terms, just lays her out there, How do you want to be with somebody who`s got no future? She didn`t even go back to get her high school education. You know, She`s got a -- she got a job at a place where she doesn`t really even make enough money to support Caylee. I`m doing -- I`m the one supporting Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But no one`s forgetting about Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, of course not. That is -- that is the paramount reason why we`re here today is, is to make sure that we can find Caylee. What is her status? Where is she? How can we find her?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So much happening in the search for little Caylee. Right now, to Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, what can you tell me about an alleged sighting of a woman with a baseball cap pulled down over her head leaving a heavily wooded area near the Orlando International Airport?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we know is the woman was leaving work sometime between June 20th and June 28th near the Orlando airport, and she said she noticed a car that was like Casey`s, she later realized, that belonged -- she thought it belonged to a friend of hers, which is why it caught her attention. When she got closer to it, she saw some markings and some bumper stickers that she knew were not on her friend`s car, so she was relieved her friend wasn`t in trouble.

But as she drove away, she noticed someone slight of build with a baseball cap and some athletic-type wear walking out of the woods, and she thought it was odd because it`s not an area, she said, where anyone would be jogging or anything like that. Of course, that was before Caylee had been reported missing. After Caylee had been reported missing, she saw the car on the news and she saw Casey on the news, and she put two and two together and thought maybe that was Casey. So she told investigators about it, and they have searched that area.

GRACE: Kathi Belich, precisely, to the best you can tell us, where is the area?

BELICH: It is to the south of Orlando International Airport. It`s sort of a secluded road. Once again, not the same secluded road where they have searched in the past that we`ve already reported on. But it is sort of a secluded road. Even during the day when we were there, which is when this woman believed she saw possibly Casey, there was not a lot of traffic on that road.

GRACE: So let me get this straight, Kathi Belich, because the timing of her sighting is very, very important. We all know that as soon as little Caylee was reported missing, the next day, essentially, mom, Casey, went to jail. She was in jail for a period of time. So was the sighting reported after Caylee went missing, but she saw the incident before?

BELICH: Well, this was in the time before any of us even knew that Caylee was missing.

GRACE: Gotcha.

BELICH: So it was during the week after Caylee had disappeared, and obviously, you know, that was during the month before we knew and Casey...

GRACE: Got it. Got it. An incredible story, if it`s true, if there`s no mistake. What do you make of it, Mike Brooks?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: One of the things they can do, since they do have a timeframe between the 20th and 28th of June, they can go back, check her cell phone records and see if there`s any pings in that particular area if she had her phone on.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by in Orlando. It`s my understanding that the pings led them to the Orlando International Airport area.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. According to earlier reports, there were some pings in that area near the Orlando airport, and that is how police were led to that area to do their searching.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla. Everyone, you know Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. What do you make of this sighting?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it`s easy enough, like Brooks said. You can start with the 18th, if you want, and you know that the car was at the house. On the 20th is when she probably was out of gas and her and Tony went and broke into the shed, which is also Friday night. And then you go to the next week, which is the 23rd. The 24th, the car was seen at the house by George. You go to the 25th and the 26th. The morning of the 27th, the car was out of gas, parked in the check cashing lot. So after that, you don`t -- you don`t look for the car.

But the one thing that we`ve started working on, just two days ago, we got a complete list of all of the phone calls and the towers that they bounced off of. And one of the things that`s very interesting is how Casey thinks. On the morning of the 27th, Tony had said that he went down to the Amscot, picked her up. She had some groceries. Well, on that particular morning, there`s a little timeframe in there when she called her mother, she called Amy, she called Jesse.

GRACE: Everybody, also, we all know the name Jesse Grund, the former fiance that was told he`s not only the biological father of little Caylee, but then, suddenly, accusations began to fly that he was involved in her disappearance. Take a listen to what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRUND: She was a very doting and devoted mother, as I said. She was very much into being a homebody and loyal. And she was wanting to spend the rest of our lives together and starting to plan it. And she started to pull away, and it started to become about her and she started to party and drink, this lifestyle that now we`ve seen pictures of out there. And then the lying started to become -- she was getting very close with her mother. She wasn`t very close with her mother at the beginning of the relationship, and then as soon as she started becoming close with her mother, it started a transformation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: NBC`s "Today" show, ex-fiance Jesse Grund, expressing frustration over Anthony`s behavior toward the end of their relationship. He is speaking out after being named as the kidnapper.

Now, not only did Grund speak out, but now we learned that brazenly and openly, mom, Casey Anthony`s, defense team has said point blank their client, Casey Anthony, is not going to tell police what she knows. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: It does her no good to show her cards, to give the prosecution any advantage that they have in putting her away for the rest of her life, which is what they`re trying to do. They can`t get what they want through the front door, so they`re trying to sneak in the back door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jose Baez on NBC "Today" show.

You know, I find that very disturbing. To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in Atlanta.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You`re completely right, Nancy. It`s just shameful that she won`t tell anything. What it points to to me is that she`s guilty of something. Otherwise, why wouldn`t she tell what she knows about her missing child?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: And I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage because he took it out on me one day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something, and I stuck up for Casey. I said, Please don`t do this while I`m here. Don`t talk to her like that. You know, I love your daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny, at this point, was a real person in the beginning. But I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee.

I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse, at this point

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Instead of looking at the prime suspect in her own household, she wants you to think that it`s Jesse or it`s Amy. And she talks about Jesse discrepancies. He clarified one statement with law enforcement. Cindy hasn`t said the same thing twice since this began.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back out to Kathi Belich, CNN affiliate WFTV reporter. Kathi, what can you tell us about searches going on in the Orlando area?

BELICH: Well, there was an area that we just talked about that was another remote area near the Orlando International Airport. There`s another search that also actually took place in an area not far from the Amscot, where she had abandoned her car. That area, as I understand, she had frequented quite often. It is between the Amscot and not far from her parents` home, so it would be an area she would frequent. But she was in that area quite often during that month that Caylee was gone, before we knew it, and so they`ve also searched that area.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Andrea in Pennsylvania. Hi, Andrea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. I`m a little confused here. Who is and where is little Caylee`s father in all that`s going on?

GRACE: Right now, the biological father, to my knowledge, has never been publicly named.

To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. In fact, Casey Anthony has told many, many tales about who the bio dad is.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: There have been several different versions of the story, including, early on, that Jesse Grund was the father, which we know not to be the true because he took a paternity test. She said -- she has variably said that it was a one-night stand, that it was somebody who she knew from childhood. And her mother says that it`s someone who moved out of the state to Kentucky or Tennessee and she only knew a first name, so...

GRACE: And then she went on to state he was killed in a car crash. Then she went on to say he was killed in a car crash on his way to Caylee`s birthday party. Then she stated, let`s see, wasn`t it that a security guard at Universal might be the father. I mean, it could be anybody. But I do know it`s not Jesse Grund.

And speaking of Jesse Grund, here`s what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRUND: At the very end, she started to lie about things. She was actually -- I was one of the ones she stole money from. She stole $250 from me and then made up an excuse why she couldn`t pay me back or made up excuses why she couldn`t be places with me. And I found out she was actually seeing someone else at the end of our relationship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s ex-fiance Jesse Grund on "Today." Casey Anthony pleads not guilty to multiple fraud and theft charges, including her so-called best friend.

Now, let me ask you this, Natisha Lance. Has she been charged with stealing from Jesse Grund?

LANCE: No, she has not been charged with that. I don`t believe that they have even pressed charges for that. But actually, Richard Grund said something interesting to me before. He said that when he called Cindy Anthony about Casey stealing this money from Jesse, she said, Well, she only did it one time. So this is something that was a habit of Casey`s and the family apparently knew about it. And they weren`t doing anything about it at that time.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us from LA, also author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, the lawyer comes out and states publicly, it does her no good to show her cards, to give the prosecution any advantage. They can`t get what they want through the front door. It says it`s not in her best interest to cooperate with police and tell what she knows.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: To me, it just seems that through the legal system, yet one more person is colluding with this young woman. Nancy, the way she lies, she floods other people with so many details that they can`t even think. She just spins them around and around. And what we`ve seen with the Anthony family, and in particular with Cindy Anthony, is that they`re halfway in and halfway out of the lies. In a sense, they`re colluding with her.

And then Jesse Grund comes in, and Cindy Anthony actually says that Jesse Grund is the only one who could manipulate Casey. Manipulate her? Even the investigators can`t get the truth out of her. I think this is a case of shooting the messenger because the messenger is speaking the truth.

And back to Jose Baez. I know this is a legal maneuver, but from a mental health perspective, it`s one more grand collusion with this pathological liar.

GRACE: To the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta, and Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta. To you, Penny. The defense attorney states very brazenly, it`s not her best interest to tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The defense attorney should just straight out say no comment because anything she says could be twisted, could be turned. If it were my client, I wouldn`t let her say a word. I wouldn`t let her speak at all.

GRACE: But Peter Odom, if she knows where Caylee is, why would they come out and announce, We`re not cooperating, it`s not in her best interests?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I would think that you`d find it refreshing that a defense attorney is coming right out and not mincing words and...

GRACE: I`m not talking about him. I`m talking about the prime suspect, mom, Casey Anthony, putting her own interests above those of her daughter.

ODOM: Clearly, that`s how she has lived her life and...

GRACE: That is your answer?

ODOM: ... she should come out and say what she knows, but legally...

GRACE: Eleanor?

ODOM: Legally, she shouldn`t.

DIXON: Well, you know, Nancy, it`s just another piece of the puzzle that isn`t getting answered right now. But I think, in a sense, it`s telling us volumes. She`s speaking volumes by her silence. She know what`s going on.

GRACE: Well, for him to come out and state, Mike Brooks, it`s not her best interests to tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance -- so even now, they`re admitting she`s stonewalling, that everything -- they`re admitting everything she said is a lie.

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And you know, I mean, they said that they`re going around the back door. No. It`s called an investigation. That`s what these detectives have been doing. You know, you got a witness list now of 82 people, Nancy. Thirty-five of those people on that list are law enforcement officials. So they`re baking her a good cake. And I hope that they wait and let it settle. There`s no hurry. They`re making this case and they`re going to make it. They`re going to wind up charging her sooner than later.

GRACE: Back to Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney. Penny, what do you make of this eyewitness who spots a woman similar to mom, Casey Anthony, baseball cap, coming out of a heavily wooded area?

FURR: Well, where`s the woman been? Where was she...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... they searched the area.

FURR: Why is she just now calling in? This happened months ago.

GRACE: No, she`s not just calling in, Penny. She called in several weeks ago, but we`re just learning about it. I`m talking to you about eyewitness testimony.

FURR: Oh, you`re saying this woman called in and said someone who looks like her came out and she remembers it.

GRACE: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

FURR: Has she reported it? Did she take the tag number? How does she know it`s Casey?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I did the same thing with Jesse because he was my first -- he was my first person I thought of that had a motive, that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.

GRUND: Typical Cindy Anthony, point the finger at somebody else, do misdirection, get the attention off your daughter and hope that people believe you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jesse Grund, former fiance, speaking out, demanding that mom, Casey, tell the truth regarding her little girl, this while a new search reportedly has taken place. And a sighting comes to light, a sighting of a woman very similar to mom, Casey Anthony, emerging from a heavily wooded area near the Orlando airport, baseball cap pulled down, going toward a car similar to mom, Casey`s.

Kathi Belich, describe the car again?

BELICH: She said it was a white Pontiac Sunfire and she knows that because a friend of hers drives a white Pontiac Sunfire. It caught her attention because she was worried. It was parked in the median. She was worried that perhaps her friend was having car trouble.

She said that when she got closer to the car, she saw some bumper stickers, she knew that it wasn`t her friend`s car. And again, you know, as she drove away, and saw a woman. Now, I did find out that she reported that to our local crime line number on September 4, when she started to put the pieces together in her mind that maybe it was connected.

GRACE: So she reported it fairly soon after seeing it. I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. OK, this was in September. There has been massive rain there in Florida. The temperature has fluctuated. If there were remains in that heavily wooded area, what would you expect to find?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If the body`s on the surface, small animals may have torn the body up. Flies may have eaten part of the tissue. If the body was buried under the ground, there may well be forensic evidence, the remains, that would allow you to conclude what caused the death of Caylee.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 22-year-old tot mom Casey Anthony is a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So she is a suspect?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: One top investigator tells me it`s fair to say they are far more suspicious of Casey Anthony in connection with her daughter`s disappearance than anyone else so far connected with this case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have the one individual that can provide us the information, lead us quickly to some valid information, and she has not done so.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The man named as Caylee Anthony`s biological father and then accused of being her kidnapper, breaks his silence. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, CO-ANCHOR, TODAY SHOW: Casey is the suspect. Can you envision her as someone who would cause harm to her own daughter?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCEE: The Casey that I knew, no. But, obviously, we -- who knows the real Casey? I think only she does. I think her personality has been so changed and molded over the years, I don`t know if she knows who she is.

Casey, tell the truth. This isn`t about you anymore. This is about Caylee. Stop dragging peoples` lives through this. Stop destroying peoples` lives and tell truth.

What happened to Caylee? Because we`re all done with it. We`re all done with having to listen to your lies and your stories that make no sense over and over and over again so tell the truth about what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Anthony`s ex-fiancee Jesse Grund on NBC "Today." Mom Casey`s attorney has said she does not know where Caylee is and then states she`s not going to tell police what she knows. So those are both diametrically opposed.

We are taking your calls live. To Sherry in North Carolina, hi, Sherry. Hi, Sherry.

SHERRY, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hello?

GRACE: Hi, dear.

SHERRY: Yes. I have a question.

GRACE: OK.

SHERRY: It`s actually a two-part. When Casey Anthony started Googling Zenaida Gonzalez, does that coincide with the time spent when she looked at that apartment at Saw Grass Apartments?

And, she also led cops to that apartment she supposedly said Zenaida Gonzalez lived. Have they ever inspected that apartment? Maybe she was in there and harmed the child or.

GRACE: Interesting question, Sherry.

I want to go to Natisha Lance. I`m sure the police have inspected the apartment, correct, and found it vacant?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. That apartment was vacant long -- for quite a while, actually. Nobody had lived in there for months.

GRACE: OK. And to Nikki Pierce with WDBO -- Nikki, what can you tell me about the date that someone was Googling Zenaida Gonzalez on Casey Anthony`s computer?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That search was found to be performed on July 16th. That was the day that Casey went to jail. So if it was earlier in the day, it may have been Casey or later on in the day it may have been Cindy trying to figure out -- or George, trying to figure out what`s going on.

GRACE: A question I have is it`s day two after mom Casey Anthony has been named the prime suspect in Caylee`s disappearance. Why is she still at home kicked back watching TV at her rent-free parent`s home?

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Penny Douglas Furr and Peter Odom.

What about it, Peter Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s not uncommon for suspects to be on the loose. Remember, she has not been charged with any offense involving harming that child. The term suspect is an investigative term, not a legal term, Nancy.

GRACE: You know, it`s interesting, Eleanor, the defense attorney also made his statement that there`s absolutely no difference between a person of interest and a suspect.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think there is, Nancy. I think suspect.

GRACE: Yes. There`s a huge difference.

DIXON: . such -- that are point to it. Yes. Exactly. And I think they`re coming out and saying this -- and it`s just a matter of time, Nancy, at the this point. We`re just building up that puzzle piece by piece.

GRACE: Penny Douglas Furr, explain the constitutional rights that attach once someone has been named a suspect.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, once she`s been named a suspect, they won`t be able to go and question her. They can`t just go and get information from her.

But, Nancy, if there is such a difference between person of interest and suspect, what is the difference between yesterday and today? What information did they find that took her from person of interest to suspect? So I would like to know from them what made the difference.

GRACE: Well, you know, I appreciate your hypothetical question, Penny. But I doubt we`ll be able to open up the state`s case file until trial time.

I want to go back to Eleanor Dixon.

Eleanor, once someone has been named a target or a suspect, they have a -- myriad of constitutional rights that then protect them.

DIXON: Exactly. Most importantly, the right to remain silent and, as Penny mentioned, the police cannot go and question her unless they Mirandize her and she agrees to talk voluntarily.

GRACE: So, Peter Odom, why would the defense attorney make such a gaffe?

ODOM: About saying that she`s not going to say anything because it wouldn`t be in her best interest?

GRACE: No.

ODOM: Because he`s telling the truth.

GRACE: We`re now talking about his comment that there`s no difference between the person of interest and the suspect.

ODOM: Because those are investigative terms and really a person of interest can invoke fifth amendment rights just as a suspect can. Legally, he is exactly right.

GRACE: Eleanor, agree?

DIXON: Well, I`m not going to agree with a defense attorney, Nancy. I think, suspect, again, is telling you exactly what it is. And we all know what that means and a indictment is probably on the way.

GRACE: A suspect invokes constitutional privileges that a person of interest title does not. It is extremely important in a legal sense.

Back to the lines, to Jackie in Tennessee, hi, Jackie.

JACKIE, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Good, dear. What is your question?

JACKIE: I just have a quick question. Last night, I don`t remember if it was during -- when Cindy Anthony called the police or when it was during her police interrogation, but she has said the last time she saw Caylee was on June 7th, and I thought the last time she has seen Caylee was Father`s Day.

Am I misunderstanding.

GRACE: No. You`re not misunderstanding. She was mistaken. As was mom Casey Anthony and her statements to police, Jackie, they were last seen -- she was last seen alive the weekend of Father`s Day weekend which was June 16th.

Both of them -- well, I know Cindy Anthony later admitted that since she had her weekends confused. I find it very difficult to understand, Dr. Bethany Marshall, how a mother can confuse the last time she saw her daughter alive.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": It is so hard to imagine but I can speak from Cindy Anthony`s perspective, when you raise a pathological daughter -- a daughter who`s a pathological liar who lies in such elaborate ways, floods you with details, spins you around so you can`t even think, so you start to go along with the lies, pretty soon you`re not only colluding but you become co-conspirator in a crime, not in -- from an emotional perspective but from an emotional perspective because you`ve made so many accommodations along the way.

So she could have been brainwashed by her own daughter and then represent the delusion she`s drawn -- gotten drawn into to the investigators.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Kay in Florida, hi, Kay.

KAY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

KAY: Just keep doing what you`re doing, honey. Fight for these kids.

GRACE: Thank you. What is your question, dear?

KAY: I was wondering, nobody has mentioned anything about the undercarriage of her car. Have they done anything underneath there to check for anything?

GRACE: You know, interesting question.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, since her story was her father ran over an animal which created the stench in her car.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, you know, it`s easy enough to get one of those little roller carts and roll underneath a car and see if you find hair or residue.

But I got to tell you. Having heard the stories from the witnesses that say they got hit by this wave of odor, one has to believe that it`s not possible that a rabbit or a squirrel or some small animal could possibly cause that wave of malodor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: He was in my home every day and I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage because he took it out on me one day. Couple times while they were engaged, and from the day Caylee was born, he was in her life and he stayed in her off and on.

And Casey doesn`t -- you know, she gets very, like, stay away from her mom, like that kind of thing . And even if you guys watch out taped interview, I asked her specifically about people and she`s -- the only person she said don`t talk to, she said stay away from Jesse and she looked frightened when she said that.

I have like seven pages of stuff that I asked him. You know how Lee is doing it? I did the same thing to Jesse because he was my first. He was my first person I thought of that had a motive. That could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shot and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 39-year-old Shirley Riggs lost custody of her children due to a complicated legal loophole during divorce proceedings from her husband.

Due to her frustrations, she took her children to Oregon and New Mexico without the court`s permission two other times. And in fact, she served six months in prison for it.

Police say during an unsupervised overnight visit at her house, she put the kids in a maroon Dodge Caravan like this one with Missouri plates MB6 C8m and drove off without telling anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter is a wonderful person, a wonderful mom. Couldn`t be a better mom than my daughter. She loves her kids. She takes good care of them. She`ll do for them before she`ll do for herself.

She panicked. She went to her lawyers the day before she left because she was afraid that she was going to lose them. She`s been setting up this house all summer to get the children and it keeps getting delayed and delayed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Out to "America`s Most Wanted" correspondent Michelle Sigona.

Michelle, what`s happening with these four children?

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Well, right now, Nancy, investigators have no clue where they could be. They think that, possibly, she had taken them to either Oklahoma where she was originally from, also New Mexico, because she had taken the children there previously or Denver, Colorado, where we do know that she does have a friend for sure.

But at this point, since April 2006, this is the fourth abduction of these children at this time and this mom has also served jail time, Nancy. I mean, she served jail time six months last year -- last time that the kids were taken in October of 2007.

So here we are again and investigators do believe that because of her stress and the mental state that the children could be, you know, possibly hungry and not meeting their educational needs and that they do need to find these children and bring them home.

GRACE: Does she have a mental history, Michelle?

SIGONA: Well, I did ask her mom that and what her mom tells me is that while she was married to Raymond, her husband, who she`s still married to at this time -- they`re not formally divorced yet -- that she was taking Zoloft for some depression.

And I asked about -- you know, because I read reports that said she was bipolar. And I asked her mom that, and her mom says, absolutely not. She was not bipolar. I actually spoke with one of her friends, John, as well.

And I actually spoke with another person that she works with at the Angel Lady Place in town, in Independence, and what they all say is that she`s a very nice, quiet person who just wants to protect her children.

GRACE: Joining me tonight, the father of the missing children and his attorney. With me, Raymond Riggs and Attorney Phil Zuspan.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Mr. Riggs, when did you last see your children?

RAYMOND RIGGS, FATHER OF FOUR MISSING CHILDREN: It was the week prior to the abduction.

GRACE: Why does she get to keep seeing them, Mr. Riggs, if she`s made off with them before?

PHIL ZUSPAN, ATTORNEY FOR FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: Nancy, we want the thank you for this opportunity to bring public awareness to these missing children. Unfortunately, we`re under a gag order.

GRACE: Oh.

ZUSPAN: With the juvenile case and even though we would very much like to disclose information to the public and helping to find these children, I don`t think we can comment on that.

GRACE: I understand completely. And I knew there was a signal of a distress when Mr. Riggs looked over at you.

Let me ask you this, Mr. Zuspan -- with me, Phil Zuspan, he is the attorney for Raymond Riggs -- the four children are now missing for days. Their non-custodial parent has made off with them. Police say the four children are in extreme danger. The youngest age 7.

Mr. Zuspan, did the court allow her to have visitation?

ZUSPAN: Again, Nancy, even though I very much like to answer that question, I am under a gag order as to what she was allowed to do and what she, you know, was disallowed to do, but she had improperly took the children and she has illegally taken them away from the jurisdiction of Missouri.

GRACE: Mr. Riggs, does your wife have any mental instability that concerns you?

RIGGS: Based on my experiences, and in my opinion, that is a real concern for me.

GRACE: What about it, Mr. Zuspan?

ZUSPAN: That would be my opinion, as well. I`m not a mental health expert, but based upon what I know, in my opinion, Shirley Riggs has serious issues.

GRACE: Why did she lose custody to start with, Mr. Zuspan?

ZUSPAN: Well, I can say that the divorce case that Raymond filed preceded any of these court actions. The reasons why Mr. And Mrs. Riggs lost custody through the legal action of the juvenile case, again, is under seal and we cannot comment about that.

GRACE: Where do you believe, Mr. Riggs, she is headed?

RIGGS: I have no idea. My best guess is just based on previous experiences, Oregon or Oklahoma or possibly New Mexico.

GRACE: Would her family cover for her, Mr. Riggs?

RIGGS: I believe so, yes.

GRACE: Out to the lines, to Sheeba in Illinois, hi, Sheeba.

SHEEBA, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, darling. My question is, what kind of an extreme danger are these children in?

GRACE: Can you tell us more, Michelle Sigona?

SIGONA: Well, I asked investigators that today. I said, you know, is she -- do you think she`s going to harm the children? They`re just not too sure at this point with her mental state. She`s under a lot of stress. I mean she`s facing charges for the last abduction, Nancy.

And then, also, you know, she was supposed to go to court on Monday for, you know, this current permanent placement of the children. That is why they believe she did take the children last weekend.

And then also, she is going through her divorce so they believe all of those factors combined with the fact that she just wants to protect her kids and that, you know, they don`t think possibly that she may not hurt them but that right now they may not be in a good state.

And I also want to tell you that in a previous case where investigators did find the children with her that they were living in a vehicle and it was very unstable conditions.

GRACE: To the lines, Stacy in Tennessee. Hi, Stacy.

STACY, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is, have they checked in those other states for her?

GRACE: Good question.

Mr. Riggs -- Raymond Riggs, the father of the children -- have they checked where she went last time?

RIGGS: I believe so. The information I have is that they have followed up on all the leads and all the successes they had in looking in previous times.

GRACE: When she made off with him before, Mr. Riggs, did she contact you to let you know they were OK?

RIGGS: At -- sometime she has and sometimes she hasn`t.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, what`s the best avenue now?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, it`s good that the FBI is involved. The Independent, Missouri police has asked for the assistance of the FBI. There has been a warrant filed for -- there`s a UFAP warrant, unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.

Now they can also send leads to all the different offices in New Mexico, Oklahoma and Colorado to follow up with agents there, to go to her -- houses of her friends and associates, and interview people there as to what they know of her whereabouts.

GRACE: Michelle, what are the ages and genders of the children?

SIGONA: Absolutely. There`s two boys and there`s two girls, Nancy. And their age ranges from 7 all the way to 14. Rhiannon, who`s 7, Kelly who`s 10, Raven who`s 12, and Spencer who is 14.

All of these children really like to act out and they really like to act in drama, that is. And they all like to play musical instruments and play on the computer. So we just hope that they`re safe tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Linda in Florida. What`s your question?

LINDA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hello.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

LINDA: Yes, I was just wondering if -- I was just 14 and if he felt like he was in danger, does the father feel that he might try to contact someone?

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, can a 14-year-old be intimidated?

MARSHALL: Well, in some ways -- women that abduct their children are very interested in parental alienation, so they tend to say to the children, your father`s bad. Your father`s bad.

Authority figures are bad in the sense they brainwash their own child. So she`s probably cut out from under him his own ability to make independent judgments and he`s probably terrified to go against her.

GRACE: Everyone, that tip line, 816-325-7258.

Mr. Riggs and to Phil Zuspan, attorney, thank you for being with us.

Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Jason Brown, 29, Magnolia, Texas, killed Iraq. On a second tour. A Green Barrett, highly decorated, awarded the Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal. A Sam Houston State grad.

Loved helping others, outdoors, hunting, fishing. Leaves behind parents, (INAUDIBLE) Rosemarie and James, daughter Alyssa.

Jason Brown, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, congratulations to Atlanta friends of the show, Mark and Shelby. They just welcomed home their newest little crime fighter, baby Beckett. The three of them never missed a show.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/02/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Former Roommate of Missing Toddler`s Mother Reacts

Aired October 3, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Exclusive, for the first time since police named mom, Casey, the prime suspect, Casey Anthony`s roommate at the time little Caylee disappears breaks his silence. He`s with us live. He describes mom, Casey, going about her normal life, cooking, cleaning, partying and enjoying life with her roommate and her live-in lover, all the while showing absolutely no emotion whatsoever over her missing girl. What did mom, Casey, have to say about Caylee? This as the Department of Children and Family concludes its own investigation of mom, Casey, their evidence now in the hands of police. What do they know? Tonight, where is 3-year- old Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan. We were playing video games, and she -- and Casey was sitting there at the couch also, on the laptop. And then all of a sudden, there`s a knock at the door.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number? Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: Casey then proceeded to go outside, and was -- me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then I would say about a half hour later, Casey and her mother, Cynthia Anthony, came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears. And her mom said, Get your things, you`re coming with me. And Casey said, No, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, No, get all your things

When I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED).

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, we are in a verdict watch, NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson facing life behind bars in a Vegas armed robbery. At this hour, 13 years ago to the day, the stunning verdict handed down in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. And once again, the jury is out. Will Simpson ever see the inside of a jail cell? We are live in that Vegas courthouse.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off that phone! Get off that phone!

O.J. SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out this room! (DELETED) think you can steal my (DELETED) and sell it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of here. (DELETED) You think you can steal my (DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (DELETED) you! Mind your business!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (DELETED)!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Backs to the wall!

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (DELETED)?

(CROSSTALK)

SIMPSON: I trusted you, man!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t -- I...

(CROSSTALK)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) guy with the bald head and he turned up (INAUDIBLE) pulled out a gun right next to my ear, and (DELETED). Then it was, like, Whoa! And I got scared myself. I didn`t know if this guy knew who I was or not. I wasn`t sure. And the gun started wheeling around, and it just -- it got crazy from there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to call 911 and tell them (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five years to life in prison. That`s what O.J. Simpson faces if he`s convicted on armed robbery and kidnapping charges. His fate is in the hands now of a Las Vegas jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: Casey`s brother, Lee, he addresses himself -- introduced himself on the phone and told me what was going on, how she admitted to him that she didn`t know where Caylee was and that she hasn`t seen Caylee for 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. There was nothing that threw any red flags, certainly not on our end, no reason for us to be suspicious of anything. I mean, she went about her business every day. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Anyway, you only got a couple minutes with us, so I`m not going to let you completely waste it. Here`s Christina (ph). She thinks she can get through to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: No! No! I want Tony`s number! I`m not talking to anybody else!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?

CASEY ANTHONY: Do me a favor. Get me my brother back because I need Tony`s number.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Tony have anything to do with Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, Tony had nothing to do with Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. So why do you want to talk to him?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because he`s my boyfriend and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn`t get a chance to talk to him earlier because I got arrested on a (DELETED) whim today because they`re blaming me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Sweetheart...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die! Do you understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby!

CASEY ANTHONY: Whoa. Oh, my God. Calling you guys? A waste. Huge waste. Honey, I love you. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Speaking of a waste, that was tot mom Casey Anthony on the phone, showing absolutely no emotion whatsoever over the loss of her daughter, just anxious to talk to her boyfriend when she`s behind bars.

And tonight, for the first time, out of the shadows, speaking after mom, Casey`s, arrest, her roommate at the time of little Caylee`s disappearance. Nate is joining us live out of Orlando, Florida. Welcome. Thanks for being with us.

NATE, FORMER ROOMMATE: Hi, Miss Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. I`m a little confused as to why she has not already been arrested in the disappearance of her little girl. But how stunned were you when you found out all this time she had been cooking and cleaning and playing house with you and your roommates, her little girl was allegedly vanished?

NATE: I mean, as you can imagine, it took us -- you know, us there at the apartment, by surprise. I mean, she was going about her daily business, you know, as Tony`s girlfriend. Like I said previously, she was cooking and cleaning and just doing normal girlfriend-type stuff, and we assumed that the child was with the nanny, like she had said. And it never dawned on us at the time that she was missing. And certainly, when we did find out she was missing, it was pretty much a shock to us.

GRACE: Nate, when you say normal girlfriend-type stuff, I`m not quite sure what you mean by that. Could you give me a day in the life of mom, Casey Anthony, while little Caylee is missing? What would she do all day?

NATE: Well, we`re in class and...

GRACE: Take it from the beginning, in the morning.

NATE: In the morning, she would usually -- if she had happened to stay the night, she would usually leave first thing in the morning. Where she would go to, we weren`t exactly sure. We assumed that she was going to, you know, check on her daughter or to go see her daughter or whatever.

We usually take off for class between 9:00 or 1:00 PM in the afternoon, depending on our schedule for the month, and we`re in class, like, four to eight hours a day. So during the daytime, I can`t really attest too much as to what she was doing, whether she was working or not working. But in the evenings, you know, she would come over. If Tony came home from class later in the evening, she would, you know, have dinner ready for him. I mean...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Like what? She was -- did she have a key to the apartment?

NATE: No, but usually -- we were all on opposite schedules, so usually, Cameron (ph), myself or Tony was home at some point throughout the day. And if one of us was home, she was allowed to be over there.

GRACE: OK. And then what would happen? She would come in with groceries and start cooking?

NATE: Yes, ma`am. On certain days, she would come in with groceries and she would...

GRACE: Like what?

NATE: ... cook meals. You know, pasta dishes. I think she made -- I want to say she made tacos one night or quesadillas. I can`t quite remember. But I know she made pasta one evening.

GRACE: And during all these meals, when everyone would sit down together and talk, never once did she mention, My daughter is missing.

NATE: No, ma`am.

GRACE: When did you find out Caylee was gone?

NATE: We found out Caylee was missing when the brother, Lee, had called to arrange to come pick up the remainder of her things that were still at the apartment. When he arrived over there, he told us, you know, that they could not locate Caylee, that they weren`t -- that they were not sure where she was at.

And then the second time we heard of that was later in the evening, when the deputies came back over there to search our apartment to, make sure that the child was, indeed, not in our apartment. That was when we kind of got a real sense of the gravity of the situation.

GRACE: What did detectives tell you?

NATE: They told us that Caylee had been missing, apparently, she had been missing for some time, and that they were there to do a search of the apartment to make sure that we were not harboring Caylee or hiding Caylee in the apartment, that she was not in the apartment there with us.

So they came in there and did a routine check, you know, searched the house, searched through every room and every closet, every cubbyhole and everything. And then you know, at that point, we kind of got an understanding that this has become a much more serious situation.

GRACE: What was Tony Lazzaro, her lover at the time`s, reaction when he found out for all this time he had been sleeping with a woman who claimed her daughter had vanished into thin air?

NATE: I mean, Tony -- the first part was utter dismay, then a little bit of anger at some of the details that have come out, you know, about certain things that he was...

GRACE: Such as what?

NATE: ... lied to -- you know, about her job, her education, just certain things that she had lied to him about.

GRACE: Her education. What about her education?

NATE: You know, she said that she had a college degree, and we`ve since learned otherwise. To the nature of her actual education, I`m not exactly sure of the extent of her education, but it wasn`t what she had originally told Tony. And it`s just certain things like that that have, you know -- have angered him a little bit. But it`s utter dismay and a little bit of -- I mean, obviously, sadness for how did he not notice what was going on, or how did he not see. I think that`s what he struggles with most.

GRACE: Did mom, Casey Anthony, ever tell Tony Lazzaro her version of what became of Caylee?

NATE: No, ma`am, not to my knowledge.

GRACE: Why?

NATE: That I do not -- I can`t even begin to make a stab at an answer for that. I have no idea why she did not tell him.

GRACE: Have you guys been in communication with her since she got out of jail?

NATE: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Why?

NATE: Tony, at this point -- he is, you know, fairly upset about this whole situation. I`m not sure whether or not he wants to actually make contact with her at this point.

GRACE: And does he feel betrayed?

NATE: Yes, ma`am. Absolutely.

GRACE: In what sense?

NATE: Just that, you know, here`s a girl that he did like, that he was seeing, that, you know, he was very much into, and he finds out it was all, you know, a web of lies, pretty much, and he`s been kind of catapulted into the middle of this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: She actually used to say that she didn`t -- that she was getting ready to not live at her house anymore with her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was she going to go?

LAZZARO: No particular place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: She was just looking to move out because she was 22 and wanted to get her own place.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number?

LEE ANTHONY: I -- I can do that. I don`t know what real good it`s going to do you, at this point.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I`d like to talk to him anyway.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, and by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my -- my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan, we were playing video games, and she and Casey were sitting there at the couch also, on the laptop. And then all a sudden, there`s a knock on the door. And I said, Come in. And there was Amy, just standing there with a miserable face. And we all looked confused.

And then Casey then proceeded to go outside, and was -- me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then, I would say about a half hour later, Casey and her mother, Cynthia Anthony, came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears. And her mom said, Get your things, you`re coming with me. And Casey said, No, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, No, get all your things.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: With us tonight, a special guest speaking for the first time out of the shadows, the roommate of mom, Casey Anthony, at the time her little girl went missing. You were telling me how her boyfriend, her live- in, feels betrayed. What were you saying?

NATE: I was just saying that, you know, I mean, Tony`s a young guy that`s down here to go to school, met a nice girl, you know, seemed like she had a lot of things going for her, going -- you know, she had a job over there at Universal, going to college to get a degree and everything. So he started seeing her, and then has wound himself up in this situation, where it seems like everything that she had told him is a fabrication. And yes, I would say that he feels pretty betrayed.

GRACE: Just curious, what did she say she was getting her degree in?

NATE: I do not recall. She said she was attending Valencia Community, but I do not recall what specifically her degree that she was attaining was in.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx at WDBO. What is the truth regarding her education?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That, you know, after high school, she didn`t really get much education. Seems like a lot of the stuff that she was telling these boys was a lie, including, you know, her education, where she was working, how she was getting money, and you know, now what she was doing with Caylee.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by in Orlando. Did she complete high school?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, she actually did not complete high school.

GRACE: And all this time, she wasn`t been working, she`s just been lying around on various people`s sofas. She couldn`t go get her GED?

LANCE: That`s correct. Actually, Cindy mentioned that in an argument that she had with Jesse Grund. She said, Why would you want to be with somebody who can`t even go back and get her high school diploma? She can`t even support her daughter. I`m the one who provides for her daughter, Caylee.

GRACE: Out to the lines. To Alisha in Utah. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show and respect you so much.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is about the woman who saw the white Pontiac Sunfire and the woman coming out of the wooded area.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a match to Casey`s car? And also, she said that the car had bumper stickers. Did Casey`s car have any bumper stickers?

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What do we know?

PETRIMOULX: Well, that report comes from one of our local TV stations down here, and it said that somebody around the time that Caylee went missing was seen parked near the Orlando International Airport. And we know that police have searched with cadaver dogs in that area. And that person was suspiciously coming out of that wooded area, and it was suspicious because that`s not an area that you would normally see people jogging. We`ve also talked to investigators, and they kind of, you know, not really making it positively -- positively searching that area, so...

GRACE: I believe the question was about the car. Liz, can you pull up a picture of the vehicle? Natisha Lance, tell me about the car itself.

LANCE: A white Pontiac Sunfire, Nancy, which fits the description of Casey`s car, as well. As far as the bumper stickers, we`re not sure if Casey`s car did have bumper stickers on it or not. But police have processed that vehicle and they are looking in this lead, as well.

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of Casey Anthony`s car. In a moment, we`ll give you the back-end shot. To my knowledge, there are no bumper stickers on the car. In fact, the woman who spotted the car first thought it was her friend`s car. That`s why she became aware of it. But it did not have the bumper stickers her friend had. So that`s what first drew her attention to it, Alisha in Utah.

Out to Jeff Gardere, Dr. Gardere, psychologist and author of "Love Prescription," and actually, a whole line of books. Dr. Gardere, what do you make of her sitting down with all of these friends, having a normal life, never mentioning Casey (SIC) was gone -- Caylee was gone?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, this is something that we see with sociopaths. They have no guilt. They`re living in their own reality, and their feelings are very much distanced from what really is happening in life. So we see almost an anesthetized kind of life, where you just don`t know what`s really happening with other aspects of their day-to-day living. So I`m not shocked by this at all, Nancy.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla. Everybody, you know Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who first posted a $500,000 bond to get the tot mom out of jail. He then came off that bond.

Mr. Padilla, thank you for being with us. I know that DFACS, Department of Family and Children`s Services, has completed their investigation as of today. What were they doing there? You were there, in and out of the home, at the time they were first investigating.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, when they came to the home, we didn`t realize that it was family services. We thought it was just some law enforcement people. And basically, they ran down about 40 minutes of questions to her regarding her child, living conditions, how she got along with her child, just your normal questions a social worker would question a mother about. There was nothing there confrontational, like law enforcement or something to that effect. Fact is, law enforcement came in right on the heels of this individual and ended up talking to Cindy.

GRACE: Leonard, why do you believe the searches for the remains have been called off by police?

PADILLA: I believe that law enforcement is pretty much convinced that the child cannot be found, shall we say, in a normal place where somebody would have buried her or put her in a -- under a tree or something to that effect. It`s either the landfill, or she put her into a pond, where an alligator has done their thing.

GRACE: Everybody, we`ll be right back. We`re taking your calls live.

But we need your help on tonight`s Amber Alert, the search for a 2- year-old toddler girl vanishing, northwest Detroit, Tagena Hussain reported missing by her mom`s live-in from a local gas station. The live-in says he the girl in the car while running inside. When he returned, the girl gone. Tagena, 3 feet, 35 pounds -- look at her -- black hair, last seen wearing a long-sleeved brown T-shirt and white cargo pants. She had on gold sandals. She is beautiful. If you have information on this little angel, please call Detroit police, 313-596-1240.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: She would wake up and -- or wake me up either in the middle of the night, or I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why. And she said that she would have nightmare -- she was having a nightmare or something, and that would bring up a nightmare pertaining to our relationship.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how often did she wake up like that?

LAZZARO: Actually, she would actually be -- I would say that happened a couple of times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: I would say maybe two, maybe four times.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: We`re taking your calls live, and we are also live at that Vegas jury deliberations on O.J. Simpson.

To Susan Moss, Doug Burns and Crystal Matthews (ph), all veteran trial lawyers. To Susan. Weigh in on Caylee.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may cook and clean, but we know she`s a fiend. This woman puts the con in confidence. She`s able to look at the police and come up with such lies. They`re intricate. They`re planned. But if we put witnesses, they will -- you know, and there`s a trial, they`ll never stand.

GRACE: Doug Burns, what about the fact she did not get Miranda when she first spoke to police before she was a suspect?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, it boils down to whether she was, you know, being interrogated while in custody. I`m not really sure whether it`s going to matter because the statements aren`t really a flat-out admission of guilt. But it`s a good point you make.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: The grandmother since made a comment to me while I was sitting on the couch, because she was ringing at the door, and I said, yes, hello -- because I`ve seen pictures of the woman, but I never met her, so I was, you know, being friendly, like, hello, you can come in, like, because she was waiting at the door.

And she came in, and she`s goes, "I hope you`re rich, because Casey is going to take all your money and leave you high and dry." And me and my roommate were just looking at her like, wait, what? What? What are you talking about? Like, because I had no idea about her with, I guess -- her -- I guess the whole situation with the mother, Amy, and Casey were about the money situation.

I guess that`s what they talked about, because that`s why I guess Amy was there with the grandmother. But -- so that happened and she said that, and then Casey said shut up, and they -- she stormed outside, and the grandmother followed her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: That`s right. All hell broke loose when grandmother, Cindy Anthony, shows up to bring mom, Casey, home without little Caylee.

Tonight, she has been named the chief suspect in her daughter`s disappearance, but still no arrest on those charges. This as DFACS wraps up its investigation of her treatment of the child.

Tonight with us, Nate, the former roommate of mom Casey Anthony at the time little Caylee goes missing.

Let`s unleash the lawyers again. You know, Crystal Matthews, defense attorney out of New Orleans, Louisiana, I disagree with Doug Burns wholeheartedly.

No, in her comment, she didn`t come out and say I did it, but her comments are so full of lies. Her lying about where her daughter is, clearly, that would impact a jury if those statements came in.

CRYSTAL MATTHEWS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct, Nancy. But my belief is that at this time.

GRACE: At the time, what?

MATTHEWS: At this time, she should do her best to consult with her lawyer and to assist in the case as well as possible, but always considering her own constitutional rights. At this time, she is a newly-named suspect in the case, which changes her status. So she definitely needs to be.

GRACE: Susan Moss, what do you think about the statements?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh, the statements are awful, and they`re really going to hurt her. If this goes to trial, you can bet that Casey is not going to testify.

But the words that she has said to others, including these initial interviews are definitely going to come in, and it`s going to be like she is, in fact, taking the stands, and it is going to crucify her.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, to Christine -- Christina in Wisconsin. Hi, dear.

CHRISTINA, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I love your show, and your twins are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you, very much. What`s your question, dear?

CHRISTINA: My question is about Casey`s first body guard, a while ago he said that he would only talk to the police if he had immunity. And I was wondering if anybody knew what he had to say.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, wasn`t that a female security agent named Stacy or Tracy? What happened with that?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: That`s correct. Basically, every now and then, like today, she came by. And, you know, every now and then I`ll talk to her and she`ll open up about a few things that she has not received any immunity.

GRACE: Like what?

PADILLA: Well, today about the -- the day that the welfare worker went by there, she talked about that for a minute.

GRACE: What about it?

PADILLA: Just basically the same thing that I told you, that they asked her a bunch of welfare type questions, social worker type questions. And that was about the extent of that visit.

GRACE: Out to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD joining us out of L.A.

Donald, thank you for being with us. How important is the testimony of, for instance, Nate, the roommate who is with us tonight or the boyfriend, the live-in, Tony Lazzaro?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Nancy, Nate`s testimony is so important because he`s the one guy that doesn`t have a motive or bias to lie. I mean he doesn`t know her that well and he is also going to be talking about Lazzaro and his involvement or lack of involvement. So he`s probably a key witness.

GRACE: I want to go to a renown medical examiner and author, "When to Call the Doctor," Dr. Joshua Perper is with us tonight. He`s joining us out of Miami.

Dr. Perper, it`s an honor to have you on with us.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Thank you.

GRACE: Dr. Perper, you heard earlier the speculation that police have called off search for Caylee`s remains because they do not believe she will be found, for instance, buried in the woods, heavily wooded areas, around the home, around where the car was abandoned.

But maybe in a landfill. How difficult is it to find remains in a landfill?

PERPER: Well, it`s very difficult, but today there`s instrumentation, which can go several feet inside the ground, without actually entering the ground, and they can discover remains this way.

I don`t know if they used this kind of equipment because I know we have it in Broward County.

GRACE: Dr. Perper, it brings to mind the case of Lori Hacking, whose husband murdered her when his web of lies fell apart and placed her in a dump -- it was a landfill -- and there were only remnants of her body, I believe, some hair and some bone.

Why is it -- why do you find the body so -- mangled? It`s no longer together in a landfill. What happens in a landfill that it`s different from being in a wooded area?

PERPER: Well, it`s -- probably in a landfill, there are much more critters who basically attack the body and eat it. And therefore, all the connection and the tendons between different organs are basically melting away as a result of this kind of faction, plus the decomposition.

So the body basically dismembers naturally as a result of both the decomposition and attack by animals which are in the soil.

GRACE: And also, Dr. Perper, isn`t it that true that in a landfill you have trash or refuse, garbage being poured on constantly, and moved around, raked around, and so as the body decomposes, it`s also being jostled around.

PERPER: Yes, correct. Because these -- some kind of displacement of the earth, so different parts of the body can be basically scattered.

GRACE: Have you ever had a body that you examined or remains of a body that had been in a landfill or a dump or a trash can?

PERPER: Yes, because some people who went to the area -- some of the people who were working there discovered them. And, again, you cannot predict in advance what stage of decomposition.

But in this case, the body was missing for quite a number of months, so it`s likely that under the circumstances, the stage of the decomposition would be advanced.

GRACE: Was that body that you observed, was it intact?

PERPER: Largely intact, yes.

GRACE: You know, very quickly, to Susan Moss, Doug Burns, Crystal Matthews -- first to you, Susan, and she sat by, and cooked a pasta dinner for her live-in and his roomies while the body could be decomposing in a landfill, Susan Moss?

MOSS: It`s just -- it`s beyond reason how somebody can be so callous about their child. I don`t even.

GRACE: Doug Burns, what is the mode of death penalty in Florida?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The what?

GRACE: What is it, lethal injection down there?

BURNS: Yes, it`s lethal injection. But, Nancy, I`ll tell you what. You can`t argue in a courtroom she was cavalier and cooking pasta, ladies and gentlemen, so find her guilty of murder. You can`t argue that.

GRACE: You know what, that wouldn`t be what I would argue.

BURNS: I would say -- yes.

GRACE: If I were arguing for the state, what I would argue is, come death penalty phase.

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: . the degree of mercy she showed her daughter while she was -- enjoying her pasta dinner she cooked for her live-in, that`s what I would argue at penalty phase.

BURNS: No, no, no, as an aggregating factor, I agree with you. I thought you were talking about at the guilt phase. And all of these lies, they are what they are. But they don`t prove murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINA, CASEY ANTHONY`S FRIEND: Can Tony tell me anything?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Tony doesn`t know anything. And I haven`t even talked to him since this morning.

CHRISTINA: Has Tony seen Caylee?

ANTHONY: Tony hasn`t seen Caylee since the beginning of June.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson, when he walked into the Palace Station on September the 13th, 2007, really had the intent to commit a crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off that phone, get off that phone.

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL STAR: Don`t let nobody out of this room. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sell it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, this case boils down to one word, and that`s accountability.

SIMPSON: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mind your business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to the wall.

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. started yelling at them, didn`t recognize them for long, and say, man, what do you have my stuff for? He didn`t exactly use the word "stuff," he used another word. I know you guys stole this stuff, you knew I wanted it. You knew this was my stuff, my personal stuff, and he started screaming at them, get real -- and they -- just -- they were like, I`m sorry, Mike took it. And they were pushing the stuff towards O.J.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Right now, everyone is stunned. The jury is refusing to go home for the evening. They are continuing to deliberate the fate of Orenthall James Simpson.

Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent of "In Session." Jean, what`s the latest?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, what we just found out is the jury is asking for dinner. They are not giving out tonight. They are continuing to deliberate.

They started this morning just a little after 8:30. By my calculations, that is nine hours of deliberation. And Nancy, they deliberated through lunch.

GRACE: Did they have their lunch brought into the jury room?

CASAREZ: Yes, they did. And they continued. They opted to continue to deliberate through lunch. It was their choice.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, joining us there at the courthouse in Las Vegas. Jean, is the jury deliberation room right off the courtroom?

CASAREZ: It`s fairly close, yes, it is. And this is the room that they have been in throughout the trial.

GRACE: Can you hear any raised voices?

CASAREZ: Nancy, at this point, we`re not -- no, Nancy. And even if I could, I wouldn`t tell you, OK? But, you know, we`re not even allowed in the room right now. It is locked and we`re outside in the hallway.

But Nancy, there are 12 counts, then there are some lesser included. My calculation, it is now up to 18 counts per defendant, and there are two defendants, O.J. Simpson and C.J. Stewart.

GRACE: So what is the crux of the case, Jean, and has the jury asked any questions or asked to view any of the exhibits?

CASAREZ: No. There are not any questions, there was a procedural question this afternoon, we understand, but the evidence is in there with them. And Nancy, this is truly an armed robbery case, because this is a case that prosecutors say on September 13th of 2007, right here in Las Vegas, that O.J. Simpson and his men went into a hotel room through the use of force, fear and violence, to retrieve the personal property of another.

And under Nevada law, that is robbery.

GRACE: We are seeing video right now of them going by. What a place to commit an armed robbery, at a casino, where every move you make is caught on camera.

To Julianne Thomas joining us from Newsradio 840 KXNT -- Julianne, what is the defense?

JULIANNE THOMAS, REPORTER, NEWSRADIO 840 KXNT: The defense basically is that O.J. did not know what was going to happen. O.J. basically says that it was other people that had planned it. He was just -- his main intention was to go and get his property back, and Clarence Stewart says that he had no part in the planning.

GRACE: Joining us tonight is a friend at Simpson. He testified at trial, Tom Scotto.

Mr. Scotto, thank you for being with us. Why did Simpson, your friend, believe that these items belonged to him?

TOM SCOTTO, FRIEND OF O.J. SIMPSON, TESTIFIED AT TRIAL: Well, they were personal items that were stolen out of his house.

GRACE: Really? Because the items that were taken, many of them, were not O.J. Simpson memorabilia.

SCOTT: Well, I think they all were memorabilia, and I don`t think they were memorabilia, they were personal items.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, what was stolen?

CASAREZ: Well, there were a lot of footballs that were O.J. Simpson game balls, there were baseballs that were Pete Rose signed baseballs, there were Montana lithographs, another star athlete, there was .

GRACE: OK, hold on just a moment, Jean.

What about that, Mr. Tom Scotto? Were the Pete Rose and Joe Montana items -- did they belong to O.J. Simpson?

SCOTTO: Well, I don`t believe that any of those items were taken out of that room.

GRACE: Well, they were, Mr. Scotto.

SCOTTO: If they were, they were maybe in a box that was not realized that they were there.

GRACE: So did those belong to Simpson?

SCOTTO: If they were Pete Rose balls in those boxes, they did not belong to Mr. Simpson.

GRACE: So.

SCOTTO: But nobody knew they were there.

GRACE: There you have it. Jean Casarez, that`s the defense? That is the defense?

CASAREZ: Well, the defense.

GRACE: I stole stuff that I didn`t know I stole?

CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, the defense here is truly the state of mind of O.J. Simpson. And you could say that it is toward a nullification offense. The emotional aspect of O.J. Simpson, seeing his possessions, and there were testimonies that he said in regard to the other stuff, we`ll bring it back. If it`s not yours, I want you to have it.

Now, the fact is, it was never returned and prosecutors say it doesn`t matter if O.J. Simpson said I`m going to bring it back, because the act of robbery occurred through the unlawful taking of the personal property in the possession of someone else here in Las Vegas.

GRACE: Jean, Jean, Jean, you`re talking like a lawyer. I talked to you about that before. How is the jury responding?

CASAREZ: You know, they`ve responded to both sides. I watched closely during closing arguments. They`ve taken notes through the whole trial, and they were actively engaged, even closing arguments, though, they went for hours, and the jury was still actively listening to everything.

G To Julianne Thomas with 840 KXNT, Simpson`s charms, a lot of the people on his first jury that acquitted him. Today, 13 years ago, did you see eye contact and any charming going on between Orenthal James Simpson and this jury?

THOMAS: Oh absolutely. When -- yesterday when they were leaving the courtroom, you could see O.J. smiling at them. And it seemed like, whoever would make contact with O.J., he would smile at them.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, let me -- let the other foot drop to that. Did the jurors smile back?

CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, I see a very professional O.J. Simpson in that courtroom. I see him (INAUDIBLE) his lawyers, I see him very curious.

GRACE: Yes, no, maybe. Yes, no, maybe.

CASAREZ: I don`t see smiles to the jury.

GRACE: Jean Casarez with "In Session," Mr. Tom Scotto, friend of Simpson, and Julianne Thomas, KXNT, the jury still deliberating.

Tight now, to CNN HEROES.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

JOHN LEGEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Last year, in October, I visited Mbola, Tanzania. The folks are starting with supreme disadvantage. Most of them are living on less than a dollar a day. It`s difficult for them to even survive. And that`s where I met Mama.

MWADAWA "MAMA" RUZIGA, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My name is Mwadawa Ruziga. I`m the leader of the group that uses local fruits to make jam, wine and juice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through translator): Before I joined the group, my life was at an all-time low. But slowly my life changed for the better.

RUZIGA: We sell our products at different trade shows. Now the members are more educated and the money they make helps them to take care of their basic needs.

LEGEND: I was really inspired by the willingness to not just kind of wait for a handout but really take an active role in helping to uplift their community.

RUZIGA: The group has really lifted my life and give me hope.

LEGEND: Mama Ruziga, she`s a leader. She`s inspirational and she`s one of my heroes.

ANNOUNCER: Get involved, CNN.com/heroes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important, the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Another shocking development in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler, Caylee Anthony. A spokesman with the Orange County Sheriff`s Office confirmed the 22-year-old tot mom, Casey Anthony, is now a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think there`s physical evidence, there`s accumulating information that she has not been truthful with the police. And so this is a very challenging case for the defense.

GRACE: A 29-year-old beauty that worked in the futures industry has been found brutally murdered.

To Dr. Marty Makary, a friend of Ginny Orange.

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: She was the perfect daughter, the perfect friend and a perfect employee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities are frantically searching for four Missouri children who are believed to be in extreme and imminent danger. The police say the four children were abducted by their own mother, 39- year-old Shirley Riggs.

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Since April 2006, this is her fourth abduction of these children at this time. And this mom has also served jail time.

GRACE: We`ve got a very special guest joining us tonight, the Zenaida Gonzalez that Casey Anthony named as the kidnapper of her little girl.

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, MISSING TOT CAYLEE`S ALLEGED "BABYSITTER": We need to speak to you (INAUDIBLE) the disappearance of Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven. What was your immediate reaction? Had you ever even heard of Caylee Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No. I was in shock.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Lance Eakes, 25, Apex, North Carolina, on a second tour. A military policeman dreamed of being a cop back home, devoted to serving others and Iraqi children.

A member of the International Royal Rangers Ministry, loved kickboxing. Leaves behind grieving parents, John and Tammy.

Lance Eakes, American hero.

Thanks to our guest but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night tonight from the New York control room and happy birthday to one of our superstars, Derek. There he is. Precious, precious, precious.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/03/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Missing Toddler`s Mother Asks Off House Arrest to Search

Aired October 6, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Mom, Casey, the prime suspect in baby Caylee`s disappearance, petitions the court to travel in secret, searching for Caylee. Until this, mom, Casey, refusing to cooperate with police, her own attorney even stating publicly she will not tell police what she knows because it`s, quote, "not in her best interests."

What`s her real motivation tonight? The defense demanding action to mom, Casey`s, car, including DNA, hair, chloroform all discovered in mom, Casey`s car trunk. They also want computers, cell phone records, polygraphs. And in the last hour, Texas Equusearch announces it is set to resume searching for little Caylee.

Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened with your daughter, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where`s your daughter? What have you done with her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff (INAUDIBLE) I found out my granddaughter has been (INAUDIBLE) She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

911 OPERATOR: OK, what -- what...

CINDY ANTHONY: ... someone here now!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking me in the eyes. You`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie, every single thing.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Casey began to break down and cry, and she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey seems to be asking you here if you want her to bring the little snothead. I`m assuming the little snothead to be who?

ANTHONY ROSCIANO, CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: Yes, the child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you believe that when she`s -- when she`s referring to the little snothead here, she`s talking about her daughter.

ROSCIANO: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson guilty. Thirteen years to the day of his "not guilty" in the murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, a Vegas jury brings down the hammer in a Vegas armed robbery. Simpson goes down on 12 counts, including armed robbery and kidnap, after he blasts into a casino hotel room with an armed posse, making off with an estimated $100,000 in sports memorabilia, and it`s all caught on tape. Primetime exclusive tonight, a key witness from the trial with us live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above-entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled case find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, as follows. Count 1, conspiracy to commit a crime, guilty. Count 2, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, guilty. Count 3, conspiracy to commit robbery, guilty. Count 4, burglary while in possession of a deadly weapon, guilty. Burglary while in possession of a deadly weapon. Count 5, first-degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon.

Count 6, first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon. Count 7, robbery with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of robbery with use of a deadly weapon. Count 8, robbery with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of robbery with use of a deadly weapon.

Count 9, assault with a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. Count 10, assault with a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. Count 11, coercion with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, alternative to count 5, guilty of coercion with use of a deadly weapon. Count 12, coercion with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, alternative to count 6, guilty of coercion with use of a deadly weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, why did you wait four months to say that you want to look for Caylee?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you asked your daughter where`s Caylee?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And where is she?

CINDY ANTHONY: She didn`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

CINDY ANTHONY: Because someone took her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our purpose of coming here was to do what, go where?

CASEY ANTHONY: I guess there wasn`t a purpose. There wasn`t a purpose whatsoever to come up here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we`re wasting time, valuable time that ought to be spent looking for your daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey, she`d be standing right here by all of us. She`d be out searching, if she could.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter, and apparently still hasn`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huh?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO Newsradio. Drew, what`s the latest? What do you mean she wants out of house arrest? She should be in jail, number one. But now she wants to get off house arrest and go on a secret search for Caylee? Flashback. Before you answer that question, when she was out on bond the first time, she did not lift one little pinkie, not one finger to help find Caylee, so why now?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: You know, it`s hard to say what she`s thinking inside her head, but the facts are that this Friday at 10:30 in the morning, there will be a hearing in Orange County court, where her attorney, Jose Baez, will argue that his client should be allowed off house arrest and she should be able to search what they`re calling places of interest in this case. You know, a little add-on to that that`s interesting is that they want the times, the places and the dates of these searches to be kept from public knowledge.

GRACE: So what is supposed to be a "place of interest" in this case, Drew Petrimoulx?

PETRIMOULX: I mean, that`s not specified in the motion, but I mean, you could imagine, you know, Casey`s boyfriend`s house, Tony Lazaro (ph), to the places where she said that she dropped off Caylee with the nanny, to the airport, to, you know, some of the search sites would all be places that you would think would be considered places of interest in this case, at least.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot of updates in the search for little Caylee. Right now, mom, Casey Anthony, wants off of house arrest so she can travel freely and in secret to search for her little girl.

Drew Petrimoulx, does this also include out of state?

PETRIMOULX: That`s not specified, either. And you know, what also isn`t -- he doesn`t say if he wants the sheriff`s deputy or any kind of investigators to accompany her, or if he thinks that she`s just going to be able to take a flight out of town and go looking, which you would expect that that would be something that the sheriff`s office and people involved in this case would be, you know, hard pressed to let her do.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York, family law attorney/child advocate Sue Moss. Also with us out of New York, defense attorney Richard Herman. And joining us out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless.

Sue Moss, I don`t even understand this. I`ve never seen a motion like this before. You know, she should be on her hands and knees thanking her stars, her lucky stars, she got house arrest. And now this?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Her attempts to travel will be denied by the gavel. There`s just no way. This woman had 31 days, and she did nothing. Where is she going to travel to? Is there going to be another hot body contest in the local saloon? It`s absolutely ridiculous! This judge will say no and it`s deserved.

GRACE: Lawless?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I find myself agreeing with Sue Moss. I think the judge is going to deny the application. I think some of her requests for evidence relating to the investigation might be relevant discovery in the charges against her, but I can`t see under any circumstances the judge releasing her to go look for her daughter.

GRACE: Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not going to release her. But why not, Nancy? How could it hurt? Put a GPS on her, make it supervised, and let her go out there and try to do it. We want the child to come back.

GRACE: Yes. You know what, Richard?

HERMAN: How could it hurt?

GRACE: You know, I think she missed one of the barstools at Fusian lounge and bar, OK, because she was under every other barstool in town looking for Caylee. It`s complete BS!

HERMAN: How could it hurt?

GRACE: She needs to go right back home -- well, she needs to be in jail, number one.

HERMAN: Why? It`s a child neglect only, Nancy. They didn`t charge her with homicide.

GRACE: So?

HERMAN: So she made bail. So she`s out on bail. She`s on house arrest, and that`s different.

GRACE: So I disagree. I don`t think she should be out on bail. But you know what? Speaking of bail, let`s go to Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of California who first made her first $500,000 bond. What do you make of this motion? Mom, Casey Anthony, she`s not happy lounging on the sofa at home watching "General Hospital." Now she wants out to go search for Caylee in secret.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, my first concern would be that -- we had her out on a bond for I believe it was nine days. And she never once -- never once did she say, Drive me here, or, Call here, or, Go there, none of that at all.

The other thing is, she`s -- she`s made threats through her MySpace and things of that nature. And I`d be concerned that maybe she`d go out there and -- because she wants her position where she`s at during the day kept a secret, that she might rally some support to actually cause somebody some harm. And the third situation...

GRACE: What do you mean she`s made threats?

PADILLA: Well, she has sent threats out like, you know, We`re going to get even with these bastards, especially Padilla, and she`s -- you know, she`s promulgated some of that stuff.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait. Where did you see this?

PADILLA: It`s on her MySpace to her boyfriend...

GRACE: And exactly what did it say?

PADILLA: As soon as I get out of here, or something to that effect, we`re going to get even with these bastards, especially Padilla.

GRACE: OK. Susan Moss, wouldn`t that be a little bit of a violation?

MOSS: Absolutely. I can`t believe -- that should be brought to the authorities immediately and she should be re-arrested!

GRACE: She is out on bond, and if that is true, that is a violation of her bond conditions.

MOSS: Nobody goes after cowboy Leonard.

GRACE: Well, apparently, she is planning to. What about it, Richard Herman? Take off your defense attorney hat just one moment. Would you let your client get on MySpace and make threats while they`re out on bond?

HERMAN: Nancy, I would not allow a client to do that, but I don`t believe the client did that because I don`t believe Padilla. So I don`t believe it happened.

GRACE: Oh, so he believes, I guess, Joe Lawless, that somebody else hacked into her MySpace and issued threats personal to her.

LAWLESS: ... MySpace page. If I were her lawyer, I certainly wouldn`t allow her to do it, but I don`t know if she`d be crazy enough to do something like that because she`s have to know it would violate her bond. I`d like to see the evidence.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony strutted away from her meeting with her case manager at the jail today, this time no big sunglasses but very heavy eye makeup. Her attorney hopes to convince circuit judge Stan Strickland (ph) on Friday to allow Casey to travel secretly to places of interest in this case to, quote, "assist with the search" of missing child Caylee Anthony. One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter and apparently still hasn`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You were just seeing a shot from today, mom, Casey Anthony, going to her home confinement meeting. We are taking your calls live. A lot of developments. Texas Equusearch has now announced it is ready to resume searching for little Caylee. Also tonight, we learned that mom, Casey Anthony, has petitioned the court to travel secretly to places of interest in the investigation. She now says she wants to search for little Caylee.

Is it true -- to Natisha Lance, our producer, who has been in Orlando from the get-go. Natisha, why doesn`t she go to any of the vigils?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, it`s a safety concern. There are protesters out there and they do not want to expose Casey to the wrath of these protesters who have been outside. So she is inside the house, watching but not participating in the vigils.

GRACE: Another motion has been filed to get access to any and all polygraphs that have been administered, and any polygraphs that would be administered in the future. The defense also wants the history of the polygraph machine itself.

Let`s go to the polygraph expert, Jack Trimarco. He is the former FBI polygraph unit chief in LA. Jack, thank you for being with us. What do they mean when they say they want the records on the polygraph machine itself?

JACK TRIMARCO, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Nancy, as a many time visitor to your show over the years, I`d like to do something I`ve never done before and that is deflect your question for a moment. One of the defense attorneys made a comment about the honesty of Leonard Padilla, and I`d like to just say that from 1978 to 1981, I worked many fugitive cases with Leonard Padilla. I was a young FBI agent then. And when Leonard Padilla gives you his word or says something on the record, you take it to the bank. He`s one of the most honest people...

GRACE: OK, can we talk about polygraphs now?

TRIMARCO: ... I know. Polygraph...

GRACE: You know, you should probably save that for a eulogy or the Kiwanis award.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Let`s get down to the brass tacks.

TRIMARCO: Hey, it is what it is.

(CROSSTALK)

TRIMARCO: It is what it is.

GRACE: No. I want to know about the polygraph now. I want to find out about why they have petitioned to get the records. It`s like you`re getting the records on a car when you buy your car over at Carmax and you want to find when it`s been lubed. What do they want to find out about the polygraph machine itself?

TRIMARCO: Well, first of all, who took the polygraph? I haven`t heard that anybody`s taken a polygraph test. First and foremost, who took the polygraph...

GRACE: Do I need to ask the cop?

TRIMARCO: Secondly...

GRACE: Can you just...

TRIMARCO: Secondly...

GRACE: ... tell me why you want records on a polygraph machine?

TRIMARCO: Secondly, we want to know, did the police do the polygraph or did a private attorney do the polygraph. All the difference in the world. If the police did it, you`re blowing in the wind. You`re not going to get anything. This is an ongoing investigation. There aren`t going to be any reports that are turned over by a motion blowing in the wind. If it`s a private attorney who has had his client polygraphed, then it`s attorney-client privilege. You`re still not going to get anything. So I have no idea...

GRACE: To Brian Reich...

TRIMARCO: ... what they`re doing.

GRACE: ... the deputy chief at Bergen County sheriff`s office, who would an attorney hope to gain by asking for the records on a polygraph machine?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY, NJ, SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, they`re going to want to look at the -- first of all, the certification of the polygraph examiner. They`re going to look at the equipment itself. Has it been calibrated? The software, the use, the procedure. They`re going to want to try to challenge the expert opinion because, a polygraph isn`t a lie detector test. It`s a physiological measurement of a person`s response to the stress of lying. So they`re going to want to challenge that particular polygraph expert`s opinion and interpretation of those physiological responses that the subject made, whether they said they were truthful or untruthful or inconclusive. They`re going to try to challenge that.

GRACE: Out to the lines. To Kellie in Indiana. Hi, Kellie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice to talk to you.

GRACE: Likewise. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have two quick questions. Why did Universal Studios fire Casey two years ago? And then lastly, why wasn`t a police sketch ever done of Zenaida Gonzalez?

GRACE: OK. Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx. Do we know why Universal fired her?

PETRIMOULX: I don`t think we do. And as far as the sketches of Zenaida Gonzalez, one interesting thing about that is I believe there was a sketch, or at least a photo line-up presented to Casey Anthony in the very beginning of the case, and she actually wasn`t able to pick out the Zenaida Gonzalez that we all know now, the one that was on your show a couple nights ago. So that hasn`t been talked about much, but that`s another interesting part of this whole case.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Any idea why Universal fired mom, Casey Anthony?

LANCE: That`s not been made available at this point. But going back to Zenaida Gonzalez, there has not been a sketched released at this point because police do not want to send people out on a wild goose chase. Say they give a sketch based on what Casey has said, which most of the things that she said have been lies at this point, they put that out there and they could possibly go after the wrong person.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Richard Herman, Joe Lawless. Back to Richard Herman. Also, Richard, wouldn`t you as a defense attorney use it at trial when a murder case finally happens, if it ever happens, that the police are putting out a sketch for the kidnapper this far into the investigation, that they even at this point in the investigation believe it`s just a kidnapping?

HERMAN: Yes, Nancy, of course. I would use that any way I could to try to discredit the investigation.

GRACE: What about it, Lawless?

LAWLESS: I think what they`re trying to do is get evidence or discovery now for an eventual murder case. I think some of it`s going to be relevant in the current charges, but I definitely think they`re looking for evidence for, I think, a murder charge that`s going to come.

GRACE: Susan?

MOSS: Zanny nanny. If you were to put out a sketch of Zenaida Gonzalez, somebody who was innocent might get hurt.

GRACE: To Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist, joining us tonight from LA. We now see mom, Casey Anthony, chafing at the bit at house arrest. How do you read it?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I read it a couple ways. It is possible that she`s trying to sort of establish herself as suddenly interested. It`s also possible that she`s been trying to protect herself all along. Maybe she gave her daughter to someone. Maybe she knows her whereabouts. And maybe she`s been concerned about her own safety or she`s been threatened, and now with the cloak of protection, is willing to go search for her daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey -- she`d be standing here by all of us. She`s be out searching if she could.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said that Sister told you that, Because I`m a spiteful (DELETED). And did she yell that so Mom could hear it, or did she just whisper that to you, or what was the context of...

LEE ANTHONY: She didn`t whisper it. She didn`t -- she didn`t also say it -- necessarily make it a point to say it as loud so my mom can hear it when I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, motions filed by the defense for mom, Casey Anthony, demanding the court allow her off house arrest to travel freely and in secret.

To our producer Ellie Jostad. Ellie, explain to me what the other motions are.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE MANAGING EDITOR: The other motions that they`ve asked for, I think the most significant is they`ve asked to see the chloroform, DNA and hair evidence that was allegedly found in Casey Anthony`s car. They also want one of their experts to be allowed to also independently look at that car, and they want all the computer and cell phone records.

GRACE: Let me go back to the lawyers regarding these motions. What do you make of them, Susan Moss?

MOSS: As Jose say would say, she hasn`t been charged yet in the disappearance of Caylee, so I think most of these motions are premature.

GRACE: Premature. So they`re not ripe yet. Let`s go to Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist. The search is about to resume for Caylee. What can you expect to find at this juncture, Doctor?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, if, in fact, Caylee is deceased and has been so many months now, I would expect that the body would be decomposed to a different extent depending up on the environmental conditions. But maybe the child is alive. We don`t know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER FOOTBALL PLAYER: Don`t let nobody outta here man. And you -- I trusted you man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bag this (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bag this (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

SIMPSON: Where`d you get all my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) personal (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I bought it from Mike.

ALFRED BEARDSLEY, MEMORABILIA DEALER: Mike sold it, all right? You know.

SIMPSON: Bag this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up. Bag it. Bag it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you bring the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in man?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said they were friends of yours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you bring it in?

SIMPSON: Bulls (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An the appeal, obviously, is being planned. Simpson found guilty on all charges, 12 in total. His attempt to get memorabilia back from the dealer -- that was his excuse. He could get life in prison when he`s sentenced December 5th. Again, his attorneys planning an appeal.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: It`s been a long time coming, guilty on O.J. Simpson, the former NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect, has finally snagged a conviction out in Vegas after an alleged armed robbery.

To legal correspondent with "In Session," Jean Casarez, what happened in the courtroom when the verdict came down?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, there was stillness, there was absolute stillness, and all of a sudden you start hearing guilty, guilty, guilty for co-defendant Clarence Stewart.

I knew right then and there O.J. Simpson was going to be the same.

GRACE: Joining me is the sports memorabilia dealer who testified at trial and the author of"Busted" Thomas Riccio is joining us in a primetime exclusive.

Mr, Riccio, thank you for being with us.

THOMAS RICCIO, SPORTS MEMORABILIA DEALER, AUTHOR OF "BUSTED: Thank you.

GRACE: Mr. Riccio, what do -- what do you make of the verdict?

RICCIO: I was shocked as anybody. You know, he made some mistakes. He -- at the end after I was done testifying, I realized he did know about the guns and he covered it up. But, you know, I didn`t think he knew about the armed robbery.

I think the guys with the guns sort of did that on their own, and sort of freelanced that play on their own, and -- but he`s paying for it.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Mr. Riccio, are you telling me you do not believe that he knew a gun was involved?

RICCIO: No, no, no, I do believe at this point -- I didn`t up until I testified. At this point I do believe he knew a gun was in the room. He just didn`t know that these guys are going to pull it, I don`t believe that, and commit an armed robbery and steal Joe Montana with those.

But he is responsible for something. I just don`t think he -- as many charges as he got, but they wanted him, and they got him.

GRACE: OK, Mr. Riccio, let me get this straight. Didn`t he bust into a casino private hotel room, with a posse that pulled a gun?

RICCIO: He didn`t bust in. I let him in. And it was.

GRACE: Uh-huh.

RICCIO: It was supposed to be to retrieve his stuff back, but you`re right, it turned into an armed robbery. It definitely did.

GRACE: Can I ask you a question?

RICCIO: Yes.

GRACE: Did Mr. Simpson come into your room.

RICCIO: Yes.

GRACE: . and along with him have individuals that possessed a or some guns, and take items that did not belong to them?

RICCIO: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: OK. That, under the law, is an armed robbery. So which verdict do you have a problem with? Do you think he`s not guilty of?

RICCIO: Well, I mean, after you see the whole picture, which is, basically, you know, he asked the guy to actually act as security for him, and this guy goes out and gets a video, a spy cam to commit an armed robbery.

You know it just seems obvious -- I mean these guys had their own agenda, but, you know, the public wanted him, they got him. There`s nothing anybody can do about it.

GRACE: Well, let me repeat my question, which verdict do you have a problem with?

RICCIO: You know, the conspiracy to commit armed robbery. I don`t think he wanted to -- or armed robbery. He was trying to get his stuff back and he has those guys there as security.

GRACE: Oh really? So, sir, are you telling me that some of the memorabilia you had actually belonged to O.J. Simpson, it wasn`t yours?

RICCIO: No, it wasn`t -- it wasn`t mine. It belonged -- it`s kind of complicated. I realized that, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, it sounds like it.

RICCIO: It really is complicated. And it`s hard to.

GRACE: So were you selling stolen items?

RICCIO: No, again, you don`t have all the facts. It wasn`t me selling it. I was helping O.J. get it back from these guys who told me it was stolen. And O.J. was supposed to go in there, identify the stuff.

GRACE: OK.

RICCIO: I gave him the option of turning it over to the police or turn it over to him. And it turned it into.

GRACE: To.

RICCIO: It turned into an armed robbery.

GRACE: Yes, because in all those tapes, I never heard anybody talking about going down to the police station.

To Jean Casarez, make some sense out of this.

CASAREZ: Well, first of all, Nancy, according to Nevada law, it doesn`t matter whose property was, even if it was all previously O.J. Simpson`s property, you can`t go into a hotel room with a gun and demand that back.

Furthermore, the fact is, according to the law, it`s very clear what robbery is, and this case fit the elements of the crime. And kidnapping in Nevada can be luring to a location through deceivery and trick, and that was the independent movement. And that`s what constituted the kidnapping in this case.

GRACE: What do you make of Mr. Riccio`s statement?

CASAREZ: Well, what -- Mr. Riccio is -- I consider him a friend of O.J. Simpson. He testified for the prosecution, but I know that he has had empathetic feelings for O.J. Simpson.

The fact is, it doesn`t matter whose property it is, and the fact is they went in with the guns and the jury said we discounted all witnesses altogether. The credibility of witnesses we felt was incredible. We looked at the audio tapes.

GRACE: Joining us right now, Jonathan Polak, attorney for the Goldman family. And they have been unable to get any of the money judgment levied against O.J. Simpson way back when after the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

What do you make of this verdict?

JONATHAN POLAK, ATTORNEY FOR MURDER VICTIM RON GOLDMAN`S FAMILY: It`s wonderful. Justice, finally, for the Goldman Family, but this is something that has been 13 years too long.

GRACE: If anyone is in doubt whether this verdict is justified, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of this room. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sell it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of here. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You think can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mind your own business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to get the basketball.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walk your ass over there.

SIMPSON: Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike took it. Mike took it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You against the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wall.

SIMPSON: I know (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Mike took it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I know what Brian`s trying to prove.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m cool. I am.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So. So.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) asses up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to ask you one more (EXPLETIVE DELETED) time.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The doughboy came and got it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Although Mike sold this to Bruce, man. He sold.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, O.J., you know all about this stuff.

SIMPSON: No, man. You all didn`t know about this.

(CROSSTALK)

BEARDSLEY: No, I sold it out about two years ago, O.J.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lawyer`s at the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hotel waiting right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) problem with you man. Are you mad at me?

SIMPSON: I thought you were straight shooter, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am, I am, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re sitting here with all this (EXPLETIVE DELETED). He should be mad at you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, another special guest, Tom Scotto, friend of Orenthal James Simpson. He testified at trial, and he was with Mr. Simpson just before tonight`s show.

Mr. Scotto, thank you for being with us.

TOM SCOTTO, TESTIFIED AT TRIAL, JUST VISITED O.J. SIMPSON RIGHT BEFORE SHOW: Thank you.

GRACE: How was Simpson when you visited him? Is it sinking in, he`s finally in jail?

SCOTTO: Yes, I mean, it`s definitely sinking in, he`s in shock, just like everybody else.

GRACE: You really believe that everybody else is in shock, Mr. Scotto?

SCOTTO: Everybody I speak to, everybody that was in the courtroom, every reporter I spoke to, everybody`s in shock. Nobody expected this kind of verdict.

GRACE: Why?

SCOTTO: Because I think he was overcharged, and I don`t -- first of all, I don`t see where it was an armed robbery where they voluntary handed over the items to him.

GRACE: Well, if you had a gun in your face, wouldn`t you hand over the items?

SCOTTO: Yes, you know, he brought a security guard with him. He`s had security all his life, but that doesn`t give him -- I don`t think it makes him at fault if somebody allegedly somebody pulled out a gun. O.J. did not tell anybody to pull out a gun.

GRACE: Now, in the tape recordings, Simpson is clearly heard asking when the gun was pulled?

SCOTTO: Yes. He asked if they pulled the gun. I don`t think he -- I don`t think you hear anything on the tapes about pull a gun or anything about guns in that room.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, isn`t there sound that this jury heard of Simpson asking about the piece?

CASAREZ: And they talked about that in the jury press conference. It`s a Michael McClinton audiotape, and it`s where prosecutors said O.J. Simpson said, come on, you didn`t pull the piece out in the hall, did you?

Jurors said they listened to that over and over and over again in that jury room, and they had no question that that is exactly what O.J. Simpson said.

GRACE: I mean there -- he -- Simpson -- I`ve got it right here, I`ve got the transcript. Simpson is talking about the video -- because it`s a casino, there`s video everywhere -- and Simpson says, you didn`t pull the piece out in the hall, where is there a video, and the guy is saying, no, no, I didn`t do it in the hall. Right, Jean?

CASAREZ: But, Nancy, the defense is saying that`s not at all what O.J. said. He said you didn`t tell police in the hall, did you?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want him to keep the phones?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just my personal phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, well, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put those (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phones on the bed. Put your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phone on that bed. Put your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phone on that bed. You too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please don`t break it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, man, shut your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mouth before you get your ass broke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRED GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN`S FATHER: Well, I think we`re all elated that this guy`s going to be in jail where he belongs, and 13 -- the number 13 now will perhaps be a lucky number for us and be an unlucky number for him.

YALE GALANTER, SIMPSON ATTORNEY: 13 years ago, 13 hours of deliberation, and, you know, it`s eerie. It really is. It`s eerie. You know I don`t know what to think of it just yet, but it`s either a very strange coincidence or somebody is sending us a really powerful message.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s reports right now that we`ve had some kind of vendetta against Mr. Simpson for what he did 13 years ago, and that in no way had anything to do with this case whatsoever.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Guilty, O.J. Simpson now behind bars, but not for double murder. Those are the charges 13 years ago. Now it`s for armed robbery in a Vegas casino hotel room, about $100,000 worth of sports memorabilia, none of which belonged to Mr. Simpson, according to prosecutors.

Joining us, Thomas Riccio, the memorabilia dealer who testified at trial and author of "Busted." Jean Casarez, legal correspondent with "In Session."

Jean, it seems to me after reviewing the trial transcript that I have so far, that Mr. Riccio`s story has changed a tiny bit.

CASAREZ: Well, I`m curious about that. In the trial he specifically said in testimony, prosecutors, I cannot help you in regard to whether O.J. Simpson knew or didn`t know that there was a gun in that room.

Now on your show tonight, I`m hearing him say that O.J. Simpson did know about the gun.

GRACE: So Mr. Riccio, which one is it?

RICCIO: Well, I -- I just said that in the beginning of the show, that at the point of my testimony, I didn`t know, then I listened to Walter Alexander sort of confess to the whole thing that O.J. Simpson asked for security with a licensed security guard, and that guy came to the incident and pulled out a gun.

He had a video camera on him so that he could create a scene and sell it to the tabloids. I learned that along with everyone else the day after I testified, when Walter Alexander testified.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez -- Jean, did any of the items rightfully belong to Orenthal James Simpson?

CASAREZ: At one time they were in his trophy room. Prosecutors say that those were the things that were taken out on the night before the turnover order was executed, where all items were going to go to the Goldmans, and they were dispersed to storage units around California.

GRACE: And how did they end up in a sports memorabilia auction, I guess it would be, or sale?

CASAREZ: It`s pretty involved. Some were in storage units, some were in the hands of Mike Gilbert. They were either sold or given to Bruce Fromong. Bruce Fromong had possession of them, he lived in Las Vegas, and that`s how it happened. It all came down here in California.

Furthermore Thomas Riccio testified that O.J. said it couldn`t have happened in California because of those turnover orders.

GRACE: But bottom line, Jean Casarez, did the jury perceive that any of these items actually belonged to Simpson?

CASAREZ: I specifically asked them that question. Did you look at the defense? Because the defense here was state of mind.

GRACE: Right.

CASAREZ: That it was his stuff, and he wanted to recover it. They said, we didn`t, because under the law, we couldn`t. The law is very clear.

GRACE: The law is clear.

CASAREZ: If you take property through force, fear or violence -- and it doesn`t matter who owns it -- that in the state of Nevada is robber robbery.

GRACE: And yes/no, Jean Casarez, is it true the defense actually wants an appeal bond?

CASAREZ: They definitely do. There is going to be a ferocious appeal in this case.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Richard Herman, Joe Lawless.

Susan Moss, an appeal bond? They want him out on an appeal while -- out on bond while this goes up on appeal? That could be for years.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW AND CHILD ADVOCATE: I don`t think they`ll do it. I mean, who knows, maybe if he had worn gloves, he would have gotten away with it, but the reality is, is that audiotape and those videotapes were so clear that that`s how this jury was turned.

GRACE: To Brian Reich, in this case, explain to me, do sheriffs even look at ownership of the items in a theft when they were taken at gunpoint?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: WRIGHT: Absolutely not. You know just because somebody steals something from you doesn`t mean you can barge in to their home or their hotel room with a gun and rob people.

It has absolutely no bearing on this case, whatsoever, whether he owned it or not, whether it was in Nevada, New Jersey or any other state. You can`t rob people and stick them up at gunpoint.

GRACE: To Tom Scotto, friend of Simpson who visited him just before the show tonight, what is his jail cell like?

SCOTTO: That I don`t really know. I haven`t seen his cell.

GRACE: Where did you visit him, in the visitation room?

SCOTTO: Yes.

GRACE: What were his spirits?

SCOTTO: He`s trying to be positive. Obviously, he`s very upset, he`s distraught. He`s -- like I said before, he`s in shock.

GRACE: Well, since he`s going to be in jail for about 15 years, has he thought of selling his home and giving that money to the Goldmans and the Browns?

SCOTTO: Well, that -- that I don`t know.

GRACE: How about his family?

SCOTTO: Well, we`re staying with his family. His family is, obviously, very upset. Everybody`s very upset. I mean, this is -- you know, to everybody else that doesn`t like O.J., this is -- this is not justice. I don`t think there was justice served here at all.

GRACE: Why? Why?

SCOTTO: Because, basically, he went to retrieve items that were stolen from him. He didn`t barge into any hotel room. It was Tom Riccio`s room. Tom Riccio let him in the room.

And everybody in this case, every witness tried setting him up with cameras, audio tapes, to basically make money. Before they called 911 they called "Inside Edition".

GRACE: Mr. Scotto.

SCOTTO: . to see how much money they could get for the story.

GRACE: . can I ask you something?

SCOTTO: Sure.

GRACE: These items, the few of the items that Simpson said belonged to him, amazingly went missing from his home the night before sheriffs could take them and give them to the Goldman and Brown family.

Why did they disappear to start with?

SCOTTO: That`s not true. That`s not true.

GRACE: Why did they disappear to start with?

SCOTTO: That`s -- these -- these items were items that were left in the house after they served the turnover order. The footballs were Justin`s footballs. They were in his room. These are items that were left in the house by the sheriff`s department and were not taken.

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

SCOTTO: These were personal items.

CASAREZ: Well, I -- the items according to prosecutors were dispersed to storage units around California. They could not get that evidence in. But we have heard it and we have read it in some books.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDMAN: We`re absolutely thrilled to see that the potential is that he could spend the rest of his life in jail where that scumbag belongs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Thomas Riccio, the memorabilia dealer who testified at trial.

Mr. Riccio, weren`t they your audio tapes that were brought into trial?

RICCIO: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Why did you tape them?

RICCIO: Why did I tape it? Again, it`s such a long story to go in here for a couple of minutes. But there was a mentally insane guy, criminally insane, Al Beardsley, who I was taping since 2004, ripped off my company.

O.J. knew he was nuts. And I -- I had the tape up in the room because of that. Everyone knows I knew nothing about the guns. I was as surprised.

GRACE: But why did you tape Simpson?

RICCIO: He was in the room along with -- Al Beardsley was the guy who was trying to sell me the stolen goods. We went to the cops. We went to the FBI. They had no interest. So me and O.J. organized this sting against Beardsley and Fromong to get the stuff back.

And that`s why -- and I was taping the whole thing. But we didn`t have any idea -- I didn`t have any idea a gun was coming out.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.

ANN, LOUISIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. You just keep fighting the good fight, girl.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you very much.

ANN: Quick question. OK.

GRACE: What`s your question?

ANN: I get that O.J. says he did not know about the gun. But I`m curious just what he was willing to risk. Had there been no guns in the room, what would have been the worse thing he could have gotten?

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: Boy, I think that`s an important question, Ann. If there were no guns, that would be a simple robbery. And let me tell you the significance of that. That is probationable.

And I think Tom Scotto made a critical point a little bit ago, without the tapes, I question whether there would be convictions in this case.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Navy Petty Officer First Class Cherie Morton, 40, Bakersfield, California, awarded four Good Conduct Medals, two Navy Achievement medals, also served the Air Force.

Caring, dedicated to others, loved traveling, cruises with family, bingo. Leaves behind parents Mary and Richard, son, Ryan.

Cherie Morton, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us tonight. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/06/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Search Set to Resume for Missing Florida 3-Year-Old

Aired October 7, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Mom Casey, the prime suspect of baby Caylee`s disappearance, has been a no-show at multiple court hearings. But now she`s set to appear personally before a judge to make her case, the tot mom petitioning the court to travel in secret, searching for Caylee.

And it is now revealed she claims she` always been afraid to search for her own daughter. Afraid. In fact, until now, mom, Casey, refusing to cooperate with police, her own attorney even stating she will not tell police what she knows because it`s, quote, "not in her best interests." What`s her real motivation?

Tonight, the defense demanding access to mom, Casey`s, car, including DNA, hair, chloroform, all discovered in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. They also want computers, cell phone records, polygraphs. Tonight, are police tracking mom, Casey, by surveillance, by GPS monitoring? Has she been supplied a secret cell phone? Texas Equusearch heads to Orlando to resume the search for Caylee. Tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony met with her home confinement manager to map out where she could go this week and when. Any violation of that schedule could send her back to jail. But now Casey is asking for more freedom. In court papers, she is asking permission to travel to unnamed places of interest to aid in the search for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, why did you wait four months to say that you wanted to look for Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As early as this weekend, the head of Texas Equusearch tells us, he would like to resume his group`s recovery efforts in and around Orlando. And Tim Miller says he would love to have Casey`s help.

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: If she said she was willing to go out and -- and take us to areas of interest, I`d be on the next plane out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to look in areas where the police didn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jose Baez would not comment. However, his spokesman tells us that Casey is not interested in helping Texas Equusearch because that would be equivalent to admitting that her daughter is dead. The only searches she wants to participate in, according to the spokesman, are live sightings of Caylee, the efforts to bring the child home alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now is getting Caylee back. And you know what? That`s all I care about right now.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson vanishing, upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. The suspicious drowning of wife number three in a bone-dry bathtub officially ruled homicide.

Bombshell. The former cop finally agrees to polygraph himself about his wife Stacy and flunks, Peterson the focus of a tell-all book where he describes the day his wife goes missing. Tonight, primetime exclusive. The author who grilled Peterson for hours and caught it all on tape is with us live with the tapes. Is there any movement in the case? What happened to Stacy Peterson?

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": And you mentioned another alternative theory something could have happened to her?

DREW PETERSON: Something -- my investigators were throwing that out. You know, she comes up dead or something, and it`s just, like, they`re going to be looking at you.

ARMSTRONG: Because it could be a number of things.

PETERSON: Depending on where it is. I mean, if she shows up in Alaska or something, you know, then I physically couldn`t be there and do that, you know? It depends, so -- and that`s got me a little concerned. But I really believe she took off with somebody, so it`s just like I`m not -- and everybody`s always saying, You should be out helping search.

ARMSTRONG: Yes, I heard that.

PETERSON: Why am I going out searching for somebody I don`t believe is there? You know, it`s wasting my time. It`s, like, crazy.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: Thirty-one days. It`s been 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, my first concern would be that we had her out on a bond for I believe it was nine days, and she never once -- never once did she say, Drive me here, or, Call here, or, Go there. None of that at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her attorney hopes to convince circuit judge Stan Strickland (ph) on Friday to allow Casey to travel secretly to places of interest in this case to, quote, "assist with the search" of missing child, Caylee Anthony. One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter, and apparently still hasn`t.

Anthony`s attorney also wants access to the evidence from the car Casey was driving when Caylee disappeared. He`ll trying to pool (ph) that evidence into the child neglect case so his expert can get to it. Attorney Jose Baez says he`s entitled to all the information because Casey has suffered the public`s hatred and that law enforcement or the state attorney`s office has successfully tried a homicide case against the defendant in the public eye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die! Do you understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby!

CASEY ANTHONY: Whoa. Oh, my god. Calling you guys, a waste. Huge waste. Honey, I love you. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 10050. Mark, she says all this time, she`s been afraid to search for her daughter, and now she`s making a personal appearance before the judge. Why now, when she has been a no-show so many other times?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, you know, I was going to say your guess is as good as mine. But here`s the deal, when it comes right down to it, Nancy. I think she wants a real "get out of jail" card free due to the fact that she says that she needs the privacy to go and search for Caylee, where she thinks that she may be.

She hasn`t told police or investigators where the child is. She has clammed up all this time. And you know, a lot of people are just kind of shaking their heads over this one, especially when the privacy issue is concerned, because you know and I know that the media will find out where she is searching. I mean, we have five helicopters in town belonging to TV stations, and they will zero in on her real -- real quick, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, I don`t understand -- to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- is why should the search for Caylee be a secret? Why does it have to be a secret?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s a great question.

GRACE: It doesn`t even make any sense!

BROOKS: No sense whatsoever! First of all, when she was in jail and she said, Look, if you let me out, I will help you find Caylee -- so Leonard Padilla, he thought he was doing the right thing by coming and bonding her out the first time, and then he found out into a week -- you know, he said, We`ll find her in a week. He then found out that she was lying. If she`s moving her mouth, she`s telling a lie. This is ridiculous. No judge in his right mind is going to even grant this, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us out of Atlanta, felony defense attorney Ray Giudice. Also with us, high-profile lawyer Mickey Sherman, author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" Out to Ray Giudice. She says she has been afraid to search for her daughter? Afraid of what?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, let me just say I think the judge is going to deny that motion very quickly. He`s not going to allow her to tramp around...

GRACE: Not what I asked.

GIUDICE: I think that she`s -- I think it`s a ruse. I think it`s a strategy that there`s some Mafia or some violent people that have the child and she`s afraid to interrupt. That`s come out in many of her tape- recorded statements. But again, that motion is going to be denied.

GRACE: Come on, Mickey Sherman. She`s sitting around the dinner table at her boyfriend`s apartment, making pasta dinner, she`s afraid of the Mafia?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, she`s so strange. But you know, the problem is that if she didn`t make at least a seemingly appearance of looking for her child, we`d be criticizing her for that. So she`s dammed either way. You know...

GRACE: No, I disagree, Mickey. If she had been at the get-go out there -- I mean, think about it. Think about it!

SHERMAN: In an ideal world, of course.

GRACE: If your children go missing, you`d be out there screaming in the streets, lying across the front steps of the police station, begging for help.

SHERMAN: For 24/7, no question.

GRACE: If she had done that, no one would be throwing a stone at this point.

SHERMAN: Well, I guess she`s trying to make the point that it`s never too late to start doing the right thing.

GRACE: Here`s where she`s looked so far, her boyfriend`s apartment, we know, at the kitchen table, Fusian lounge, under every barstool possible, and a good search around the stripper pole, Amscot checking, where her car ran out of gas, and Blanchard Park, where she claims she lost her cell phone. Oh, yes. There was the big search at Buffalo Wild Wings, Mickey Sherman. Of course people are throwing stones.

SHERMAN: Well, the other problem is, as Mike points out, there`s nothing she`s going to do that`s going to be secret. This woman has an aura of publicity around her 24/7 while she`s out of jail.

GRACE: Ray, what about Sherman`s theory that dammed if she does, dammed if she doesn`t? I disagree with that because if she had been searching at the beginning and putting out fliers, the way most people would if their child went missing, she wouldn`t be in the predicament she`s in now. And why should the search be in secret, Giudice?

GIUDICE: Well, it`s not going to be, but I think, in Mickey`s defense -- look, she`s going to try to do something. Baez is going to throw it up so at trial, he can say, We tried, we offered to look and we were turned down, and you didn`t follow up on all these leads. We could have helped. But I do think it`s a dollar late. It`s -- whatever the phrase is, it`s too late.

GRACE: It`s a day late and a dollar short.

GIUDICE: A dollar short. Thanks.

GRACE: OK, good try. Back to Mark Williams with WNDB. What about her appearance on Friday in court?

WILLIAMS: Well, that appearance takes place at 10:30 AM in an Orange County courtroom. She`ll be accompanied by Jose Baez, her attorney, who, of course, is going to say -- say to the judge, you know, Let Casey expand her horizons a little bit. Let`s get her out of home confinement. Let`s let her search for the child.

But again, I agree with your other guest, a day late, a dollar short, because, as you know, Nancy, some of the investigators have said Casey`s no longer with us -- or Caylee`s no longer with us.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch -- Texas Equusearch now resuming in the search. They are headed back to Orlando to search for Caylee. As you know, Tim Miller not just a veteran searcher but also a crime victim himself. Mr. Miller, why are you heading back?

MILLER: Nancy, why not? I mean, we`ve still got a missing girl. You know what? It`s never too late to continue a search. I truly believe that Caylee is out there. I would love to believe that she`s still alive. But Nancy, I truly from my heart don`t believe that. And I believe that she`s findable and the only way she`s going to be findable is let`s go search some more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because you brought us here, right? Now, I want you to tell me how that`s helping us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But everything we`re doing is to find your daughter. That`s the most important thing in the world to you right now, right?

CASEY ANTHONY: Caylee`s been up here. Maybe we could talk to security to see if she`s come through the front. I know she`s come to the park. She`s gone to Disney. She`s been at Seaworld.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa!

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s been to other place...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go back to -- let`s -- let`s...

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here...

CASEY ANTHONY: ... a backwards way of looking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. It`s -- you know -- why do you think it`s backwards? It`s backwards because you haven`t been truthful with us.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Texas Equusearch announcing that it is headed back to Orlando to resume the search for 3-year-old missing Caylee. Here`s a shot of her. The tip line, everyone, I want you to be familiar with. We`re going to put that up on the screen. Also, there is a Web site about looking for little Caylee, Cfcrimeline.com. There is a $225,000 reward to find little Caylee.

To Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch. Where do you intend on searching, Tim?

MILLER: Well, Nancy, we never really even came close to completing the areas that we searched before because of the conditions. And conditions today are not the same as when Caylee disappeared. You know, they had a tropical storm came in. It dropped a lot of water.

And it was my choice to go ahead and suspend the search at that time. And the reason being I truly believe that Caylee is not alive anymore. I don`t believe she`s far away. And I was not going to take a risk on our four-wheelers and our horses, our ground searchers walking through water that was a foot or two high and stepping on a possible little skeleton -- and we all know that she`s extremely decomposed right now and skeletal remains -- and pushing it farther down in the mud, so -- and then have a chance of never finding her.

So I`m flying back to Florida this week. I`m going to look the area over and make that determination.if...

GRACE: Are you working with police?

MILLER: I have talked to John Allen today, I talked to him twice yesterday. And we are certainly working together on this, and we`re not going to quit until Caylee is found.

And you know what? I held onto that little glimmer of hope that she was still alive out there. But Nancy, I am -- I`ve lost all that hope. And you know what? We need to find her. And you know, there`s -- it`s never too late. I mean, we did a search on Sunday in Oklahoma on a lady that`s missing five years, and I personally located her body in 35 minutes.

So I`m going to make some decisions out there, and we`re going to bring in the best resources again, and the conditions are going to be right...

GRACE: Tim, who pays your people?

MILLER: Nobody does, Nancy.

GRACE: You`re all volunteers?

MILLER: We`re all volunteers. I`ve got $35,000-plus invested in -- in Caylee`s search. But what price tag do you put on a missing person?

GRACE: Everyone, I want to remind you Tim Miller not just the head of Texas Equusearch but a crime victim. His daughter went missing and was murdered, and he has devoted himself to this calling ever since.

To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, there are 13 felony charges hanging over Casey Anthony`s head, all fraud-related. Tell me in a nutshell what are the other charges she`s facing?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, besides the lying to investigators and the other charges that are involved with Caylee, the rest are check fraud charges from stealing from her friend, Amy Huizenga. She stole checks when she borrowed Amy`s car and she cashed them all at various places, at Target, Bank of America, and so on, and cleaned out Amy`s bank account.

GRACE: We`re taking your calls live. Out to Stephanie in Washington. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is, is when did she start searching for chloroform in her computer? Can they find that date? Because I`m wondering if maybe the chloroform wasn`t for her mother.

GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Mark Williams? Do we know the date of those searches on her computer?

WILLIAMS: I don`t believe that information is yet to be released yet. But the computer did show that she did search for chloroform. But the exact date has not yet been released by authorities.

GRACE: And I mean, you`ve got to think it through, Mike Brooks. I`ve actually heard that theory espoused before that she wanted to somehow injure her mother. But the bottom line is, it`s Caylee who has gone missing. It`s either Caylee`s or Casey`s hair in the trunk, and the chloroform is in the trunk. So that negates any theory that she was out for her mom.

BROOKS: Right, unless, you know, under some theory that she was storing the chloroform in her trunk, which I find highly improbable. And you know, investigations are saying...

GRACE: But then how does Caylee fit into the trunk?

BROOKS: Well, because they believed that the hair that was...

GRACE: No, no, no. You say she accidentally -- she`s storing chloroform in the trunk and then somehow her daughter ends up in the truck? That doesn`t make sense.

BROOKS: No, no. I`m saying is unless she had it in the trunk and it spilled over. That`s the only reason there would be significant traces, as the FBI said, of chloroform in the trunk. But I -- I...

GRACE: So she means to kill somebody else, and then somehow Caylee goes missing? Is that, you know, reasonable in your mind?

BROOKS: No, absolutely not, Nancy. And you know -- and...

GRACE: OK. Thank you. You just restored my faith in you.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Back to the lines. Cheryl in Washington. Hi, Cheryl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is, has Casey had a psychiatric evaluation?

GRACE: We do know that she had at least one in order for her to get out of jail and be on house arrest. We don`t know the results of that. It has not been published.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who first put up the bond for Casey Anthony, then came off that bond, bounty hunter out of California. He`s joining us tonight from San Antonio. Mr. Padilla, what do you make of Casey Anthony saying she`s always been too afraid to go search for her daughter? Now, look, don`t get me wrong. I`m not throwing a stone at anybody`s lifestyle. I don`t care. All I care about are felonies. But she didn`t look too afraid when she was on that stripper pole at Fusian lounge. She didn`t look scared to me.

PADILLA: She -- she has no fear. And the reason she has no fear is because she figures she`s in complete control of the whole situation. She right now knows that Tim Miller is within days of finding her daughter, Caylee`s, remains. She knows that. She can sense it. She can feel it.

Tim Miller has access to the same information that law enforcement and my partner, Rob, have. And that is, they know exactly where she was on those days that took place between the 16th and the 30th. And Tim Miller - - I`m telling you, he`s the best equipped, he`s the most knowledgeable, and he will find Caylee. I guarantee you that.

GRACE: Very quickly, everyone. We`ll be right back, and we are taking your calls live as the search resumes now for little Caylee.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." The search for a precious 2-year-old girl, vanishing northwest Detroit, Tagena Hussain, reported missing by mom`s live-in. They were allegedly at a local gas station. Police say he flunked the polygraph. The little girl last seen wearing a long-sleeved brown T-shirt, white cargo pants and gold sandals. Take a look. If you have information, please call Detroit police, 313-596-1240.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: Fear of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: No one can say or second guess what you`re going to do to protect your child when you fear for their safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that she`s safe. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter`s safe.

CINDY ANTHONY: You know, we`ve got to be very mindful because anything we say, not even thinking about it, could be something that could put Caylee`s life in danger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Everyone, the search is now resuming for little Caylee, Texas Equusearch being brought in to search throughout the Orlando area. Here are some of the places that are focused for searches, the dumpster near the Amscot where the car was found, the airport area, where pings from the cell phone was -- there`s the tot family home, and a nearby landfill.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Dr. Saunders, the mindset that it would take to, for instance, throw a body in water versus putting it in a dumpster -- explain the difference.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, in both instances, it`s obviously the callous disregard for the deceased. I think the notion of putting it in a landfill is pretty distasteful to most people because it`s garbage. It also shows no foresight because that could easily be found, as opposed to putting a body in water, where it`s going to decompose pretty fast.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This afternoon, Casey Anthony met with her home confinement manager to map out where she could go this week and when.

Casey is asking for more freedom. In court papers, she is asking permission to travel to unnamed places of interest to aid in the search for Caylee. A spokesman at the Orange County Jail said this kind of request is highly unusual, and would likely require Casey`s attorney to be with her at all times.

For his part, Jose Baez has argued since this July interview, that confining Casey stalled the search for Caylee.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: We are going to look in areas where the police didn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: As early as this weekend, the head of Texas Equusearch tells us, he`d like to resume his group`s recovery efforts in and around Orlando. And Tim Miller says he would love to have Casey`s help.

Jose Baez would not comment, however, his spokesman tells us that Casey is not interested in helping Texas Equusearch because that would be equivalent to admitting that her daughter is dead.

The only searches she wants to participate in, according to the spokesman, are live sightings of Caylee. The efforts to bring the child home alive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Wouldn`t those searches require her to go out of state, Mark Williams, with WNDB, if she wants to follow up on -- alleged live sightings?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: It would require her to travel out of state, no doubt about that, Nancy. And you know there`s also been some sightings like in the North Georgia Mountains, up in White County. There`s been some alleged sightings at the Orlando International Airport.

As a matter of fact, Baez is trying to get a full manifest for one flight in particular. But if there was anything evidence of Caylee being there, we`d have the videotape, which we don`t have.

Also, there`s been sightings in Puerto Rico and of course, in Dallas/Fort Worth.

GRACE: Isn`t it true, Mike Brooks, former Fed with the FBI, that the police got the manifest from AirTran for a flight from Orlando to Atlanta. On that plane, there were two children and both of them were accounted for. They were not Caylee.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: They were not Caylee, they worked with AirTran corporate security. Nothing fit in that description.

Also, in Atlanta here, with the Atlanta Police Department at Hartsfield Jackson International Airport, they reviewed video. Nothing came up.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, joining us from Miami, he`s the Palm Beach County chief medical examiner.

Dr. Bell, thank you for being with us. This brings to mind two recent cases, that of Lori Hacking, whose husband threw her body into a landfill. She was barely found. There was some bone and hair that was found to identify her, versus the discovery of lacey Peterson. She and her unborn child, Connor, had been thrown into San Francisco Bay. They washed ashore.

When a body is put in a landfill versus water, how does the decomposition of the body compare?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I`m not sure it`s necessarily going to be worse if it was in water versus landfill. Again, it`s more dependent upon the environmental temperature. And especially down here in Florida, the body is going to go bad fairly quickly.

GRACE: And with all the rain that has accumulated in Florida and also in a landfill, Doctor, you have the constant upheaval of adding new garbage, the garbage getting rotated around because of new garbage coming in, which further disassembles the body.

BELL: You`re absolutely correct. Things get a lot worse in a landfill. You get post mortem fractures and tears in the body.

GRACE: The body becomes completely disassembled. I want to go back out to our lawyers, Raymond Giudice and Mickey Sherman.

Ray, what would police have to do through to install GPS? A simple -- it`s about that big, it`s like a little.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s an ankle bracelet, Nancy. I mean it`s really not complicated.

GRACE: No, no, not on her, on her or her family`s car.

GIUDICE: Oh it`s even more simple. I mean that can be placed anywhere in the car. They have devices.

GRACE: But legally what do you have to go through? Like a search warrant?

GIUDICE: Oh for that -- oh, yes, they`d have to get a search -- I`m sorry. The mechanics of it are simple. A warrant is necessary and that`s not that complicated to get.

GRACE: To Mickey Sherman, defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People" -- Mickey, would it be any form of obstruction of justice if someone gave Casey Anthony, the tot mom, a secret cell phone to be using that was not tapped, in order to avoid the tap by police?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I don`t think so. Unless there is a specific order that she can only use certain phones. I mean, it`s more the negative. Unless she is forbidden to do it by a court order then she can basically do anything she wants that is within the law. And that`s not a problem.

GRACE: But what about, Mickey, the person that supplies her the phone that is specifically to avoid a police tap?

SHERMAN: Well, but it`s not to avoid a crime. It`s to avoid a police tap. I don`t know that that`s an obstruction of justice.

GIUDICE: I agree with Mickey.

GRACE: So Mike Brooks, what do you think of the theory that someone may provide her with a secret cell phone not listed in her name?

BROOKS: Well, they can find out, Nancy, because there are technologies now. They can say, OK, where is this certain signal coming from? Where is it going to? So they should be able to use a triangulation to find out if, in fact, if she is at her home or at Baez`s office, whether or not her cell phone is being used there that belongs to her, and in between.

GRACE: But wouldn`t they need to know that cell number?

BROOKS: There is -- without giving away -- there is technology to determine whether or not a signal is coming from inside that house that is not already -- that is not already tapped under court order.

GRACE: To Mark Smith, polygraph expert and VP of New Jersey Polygraphists --Mark, thank you for being with us. The defense has made an array of motions. One of them to get the history of polygraph machines that may or -- have been or may be used to give polygraph in this case.

Why do you need the machine`s history? Is it like a DUI machine?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, VP OF NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: Well, you would hope that they`re using modern technology and computerized polygraph instead of the older style. There`s nothing wrong with the older ones, but you wouldn`t use a manual typewriter to type a letter today either.

And the computerized polygraph is light years ahead in technology. But there is no reason why that information shouldn`t be given to them, including.

GRACE: If they want it. But.

SMITH: The charts, questions.

GRACE: But, you know, another question -- back to the lawyers. To you, Ray Giudice, isn`t this moot at this juncture to be asking for all the evidence in a murder case when it`s just a child neglect case right now?

GIUDICE: Yes, that`s Baez`s point, he`s got to try to make a link between all of this forensic evidence.

GRACE: Got it.

GIUDICE: . and the polygraph examination to the case at bar. And I think he has got a good argument.

GRACE: Mickey Sherman, what is she doing at her defense attorney`s office all day long? I say she`s kicked back in a conference room, watching cable TV and yacking on the phone.

SHERMAN: If I was representing the Rolling Stones, I couldn`t spend that much time.

GRACE: All day, every day.

SHERMAN: I don`t understand that. She`s.

GRACE: . in her lawyer`s office. I think it`s a way just to get out of the house.

SHERMAN: That`s a lot of lifetime movies she`s going through. I mean.

GRACE: Man, you`re not kidding.

SHERMAN: You can only -- you can only debrief your client for so long. That`s a mystery to me. I think she`s just hiding.

GRACE: Nikki Pierce, what hours does she spend at her attorney`s office every day?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Generally it`s Monday through Friday, 10:00 to 4:00, sometimes it`s longer on Friday, for instance, when she goes to court...

GRACE: Did you say 10:00 to 4:00?

PIERCE: I did say 10:00 to 4:00. That`s usually what it is.

GRACE: Holy molly. OK, she ought to get her own office.

To Brenda in Michigan, hi, Brenda.

BRENDA, MICHIGAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

BRENDA: My question is, if she wants to go out and search secretly, could that -- do you think that could be because she knows where Caylee is?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, we saw in the Scott Peterson case, Peterson kept circling back and looking out over the San Francisco Bay. I don`t think Casey Anthony would be that stupid.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Oh, yes. She figures she is in complete control, and I can tell you this. She knows where the body is. And my only concern would be that she would go out there and attempt to move it or do something stupid, because she is that idiotic about doing things.

She figures, I`m in control, I know where the body is at. A lot of other people know where the body is at, too, because between the 26th and the 28th, I`ll tell you when she got rid of the body was prior to the 27th when she called Amy and says, I got rid of the smell in the car.

The night of the 26th, she parked the car there, at Amscot. The morning of the 27th, she went and picked the car back up, went to her mom, she called JCPenny`s and there`s a couple of signals down there in that area where she spent about 15 minutes.

That`s where the body is going to be found, and I`m telling you, Tim Miller is going to get it done.

GRACE: Now are you somehow.

PADILLA: She`s concerned about that.

GRACE: . married to the idea that the remains were in that dumpster near Amscot cash -- check cash?

PADILLA: No, no. No, we`ve -- regurgitated and talked about that, and Rob has come up with the -- the pings, where the only answer, unless somebody picked her up at Amscot the morning of the 27th, she had to get back in her own car. It was not (INAUDIBLE) yet.

GRACE: Leonard, got it. Before we go to break, I have got to ask you, do you think that anyone, friend or family, would supply her with a secret cell phone?

PADILLA: Absolutely, yes. Yes.

GRACE: I do, too. What do you think about the notion that the family cars have GPS trackers on them?

PADILLA: Well, I don`t think they do right now. But there`s -- there`s really no need for it. They`re -- you know, they`re high-profile. And law enforcement can track them any time they want, physically, so I don`t think they have GPS trackers on them.

And as somebody said earlier, I do not believe the judge is going to let her get out and mess with evidence.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": This probably all comes across to a lot of audiences as you`re trying to blame her for running away or whatever.

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING STACY PETERSON: Well, I look at it, Mike -- you know, you sit by yourself sometimes and you try to think, what did I do wrong? You know, could I have been a better husband, could I have done this, could I have done in? I gave her everything.

And my way of giving her love was providing for her. You know, like I say, I kept telling people, she wanted a boob job, she got a boob job. Braces, I got her braces.

ARMSTRONG: She got a boob job?

PETERSON: Lasik surgery, we got her lasik surgery. I don`t really mean to be arrogant, it`s just like I`d call it a dominance and being a police sergeant and been a policeman for 33 years, you have to develop that certain amount of callousness and -- I don`t even call it arrogant.

I mean I think I`m the last thing in the world to describe me as arrogant. You know, I mean, it`s just like Joel has really kept a lid on me from being funny, because if it wasn`t for him, I`d be doing all kinds of.

ARMSTRONG: Right.

PETERSON: . goofy stuff. The other day, Greta`s trying to have a thing and I`ve got the horns going to ruin their interview on the cars and stuff and that made all the presses, this crazy thing, you know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, it takes a certain type of humor to find the humor in a missing fourth wife and a dead third wife. But apparently Drew Peterson has been able to bridge that gap and find the humor in those circumstances.

Joining us tonight, Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed." He is joining us exclusively tonight. Here is his book. He has hours of audiotapes of Drew Peterson.

And we learned that related to Stacy Peterson, Drew Peterson took a polygraph and flunked. He missed half the questions. He is deceptive on half the questions.

Is that true, Mr. Armstrong?

ARMSTRONG: Yes, it is, Nancy. He -- sorry.

GRACE: Go ahead.

ARMSTRONG: He was deceptive on thee answers that related directly to the timeline that I asked him to produce for the book.

GRACE: Were you disturbed when you realized he was lying?

ARMSTRONG: Yes. And that was the reason I asked him to take the polygraph before I would even consider interviewing him and writing the book.

GRACE: How did you meet Peterson to start with? Who contacted who?

ARMSTRONG: I contacted Selig, his publicist, when I heard he was shopping a book. I`m in Canada, so the offer I made to him was, I`ll write an impartial book. But he had had no luck getting an author interested, and I came along, I suppose, at the right time.

GRACE: What questions showed him to be deceptive related to Stacy Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: The first question related directly to the timeline, he said that the only time he saw Stacy on the morning of October 28th was when he came home from the police department. He said hello to her and then he went to sleep and never saw her again. That was a deceptive answer that he gave.

GRACE: And, sir -- with me, everyone, Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," he`s got hours of hours of audiotape with Peterson.

What is significant about the timeline that Peterson gave you?

ARMSTRONG: Well, I don`t think anyone has had a timeline from him before. I`m sure he gave one to the police. I`m not privy to that. But in the media, he hasn`t given a full timeline. I insisted on it for the book, and I used that to construct the polygraph questions.

GRACE: To Mark Smith, polygraph expert with New Jersey Polygraphists -- Mr. Smith, we went to your stories about people that can believe they can beat a polygraph. What would throw a polygraph off?

SMITH: Well, you can create movements and put artifacts, as we call them, on the charts. But that`s not going to clear you. That may make the charts unable to be scored and, you know, result indetermined, but it`s certainly not going to clear you.

GRACE: To our lawyers, Ray Giudice, Mickey Sherman -- everyone, we`re taking your calls.

Ray Giudice, all of these hours and hours of him on audiotape will come into evidence.

GIUDICE: Very likely. I just can`t believe his lawyer allowed him to do this in a not-for-profit situation, especially. This is a terrible tactical mistake.

GRACE: What about it, Sherman?

SHERMAN: Well, here`s my question for Mr. Armstrong. Is he sharing in the profits, yes or no?

GRACE: Is he, Derek Mr. Armstrong? Did he make any money off this book?

ARMSTRONG: No. Basically what.

GRACE: Go ahead.

ARMSTRONG: No, he`s getting no piece of it. His interest in this is to tell his story. My sense of it is that he likes celebrity. You know how he likes to be in the media. I think he wants a book. I think eventually he wants a movie. That`s what I think is at the bottom of his motivation.

GRACE: Did he ever show any remorse over the disappearance of his fourth wife or the death of his third wife?

ARMSTRONG: No.

GRACE: Now, he managed to pass polygraphy questions about the drowning death of his third wife. Who gave the polygraph?

ARMSTRONG: The polygraph examiner was Lee McCord of -- in Illinois. He has been licensed for 34 years. I checked his credentials. He`s a good polygraph examiner.

He didn`t have an explanation for why he passed that one. I tried to get to the root of it. He just said as far as I`m concerned it was conclusive and he passed it.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, what do you make of it?

BROOKS: You know, Nancy, I think polygraphs are a great investigative tool. I talk about them all the time, I`d use them in my -- cases I worked with when I was at the FBI. But, you know, they are investigative tools. They are not admissible in court, so you know, this guy, does he have a personality disorder, you know, is he really telling the truth?

Did he pass the one with Savio? Maybe he was -- you know, beat it or was deceptive and it didn`t come through, who knows? But the bottom line is, Nancy, with the grand jury and all the evidence they have with them, if they have a case, they should charge him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight to Dr. Patricia Saunders, when he was told that he flunked the polygraph, there was no response whatsoever.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It doesn`t surprise me, Nancy. You know sociopaths tend to have very good control over what little emotions they have. This guy is a better sociopath than Casey Anthony.

GRACE: To our producer, Ellie Jostad -- Ellie, is it true he`s actually waiting for a movie?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE MANAGING EDITOR, COVERING STORY: Yes, exactly. He was asked by the "Chicago Tribune" what he thought about this book coming out and he said, oh, he is bored with it all. He was waiting for the movie and that he hopes Denzel Washington would play him.

GRACE: Mr. Armstrong -- Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," what was your impression of Drew Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: It`s a long analysis, but basically, he is all about himself. He`s -- he likes his own celebrity. He -- at times he shows emotions really is when he is worried about himself or his children, but certainly not when it related to anything else I asked him.

GRACE: I noticed in all of the pictures in your book, he is never smiling with his family, only when he is with his golfing buddies or his friends.

"Drew Peterson Exposed" by Derek Armstrong.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Marine First Lieutenant Matthew Vandergrift, 28, Littleton, Colorado, killed Iraq. A Texas A&M, honors grad, fulfilled his dream to follow his father`s footstep serving his country.

Awarded the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Sea Service Deployment Ribbon and National Defense Service Medal. Leaves behind parents John and Mary, brother, Barrett, serving the Air Force.

Matthew Vandergrift, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/07/ng.01.html

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30 FLORIDA GRAND JURY HANDBOOK

The Supreme Court Committee

On Standard Jury Instructions

In Criminal Cases

TABLE OF CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION

WHAT IS A GRAND JURY?

TERM OF THE GRAND JURY

WHO ARE GRAND JURORS?

DISQUALIFICATION TO SERVE AS A GRAND OR PETIT JUROR

FREQUENTLY USED WORDS AND PHRASES

GRAND JURY AND PETIT JURY DISTINGUISHED

HISTORY OF THE GRAND JURY

THE GRAND JURY AS AN ACCUSING AND INVESTIGATIVE BODY

OFFICERS OF THE GRAND JURY

PROCEDURES

PROCEEDINGS OF THE GRAND JURY

DETERMINATION WHETHER TO RETURN AN INDICTMENT OR

A NO TRUE BILL

THE STATE ATTORNEY (OR THE STATEWIDE PROSECUTOR)

AS LEGAL ADVISOR TO THE GRAND JURY

SECRECY OF GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS

PROTECTION AND IMMUNITY OF GRAND JURORS

ON BEING A GRAND JUROR -- SOME PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS

CONCLUSION

INTRODUCTION

"Jury service is one of the highest duties of citizenship, for by it the
citizen participates in the administration of justice.."

Harlan Fisk Stone

Chief Justice

United States Supreme Court

You are one of those citizens who have been selected to perform this "highest duty of citizenship."

In time of peace there is no higher duty a citizen can perform than that of jury service; however, few citizens when called to serve have any understanding of the principles that control the actions of the grand juror.

This handbook is intended only to give the juror a better understanding of the general nature of his or her functions, together with some suggestions as how best to carry them out. The court itself will be the final authority in its instructions to the grand jury. This handbook is not intended in any manner whatever as a substitute for the instructions given by the presiding judge.

WHAT IS A GRAND JURY?

A grand jury is an investigating, reporting, and accusing agency of the circuit court (or of the Florida Supreme Court in the case of the statewide grand jury). It consists of citizens of a specified number who have been summoned and empaneled by a judge of the circuit court (or by a judge appointed by the Florida Supreme Court, in the case of the statewide grand jury). The grand jury is an agency and an arm of the circuit court (or the Florida Supreme Court in the case of the statewide grand jury) and is uniquely independent.

The grand jury is answerable to no person or agency of government except the court that empanels it and, even then, only to the extent that it may exceed its authority and privileges.

TERM OF THE GRAND JURY

At least two terms of court are held each year and once the grand jury is empaneled, it will serve for the balance of the term of court. In exceptional cases, its term may be extended. (The statewide grand jury's term is for a period of 12 months, but may be extended for up to 18 months.) The grand jury will not be in continuous session but will be called in from time to time as necessary.

WHO ARE GRAND JURORS?

Grand jurors are United States citizens and legal residents of this state and their respective counties who are at least 18 years of age and who possess a driver's license or identification card issued by the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, or who execute an affidavit indicating a desire to serve as a juror.

All jurors are selected at random and their names are taken from lists prepared by the clerk of the circuit court.

The process of selecting jurors is done in most counties by the county commissioners and in some counties by a specially constituted jury commission. The process of selecting the statewide grand jury is handled by the State Courts Administrator for the Florida Supreme Court.

When making up the jury list, the officers compiling it are required to select only citizens they believe to be law-abiding, and of proven integrity, good character, sound judgment and intelligence, and who are not mentally infirm.

DISQUALIFICATION TO SERVE AS A
GRAND OR PETIT JUROR

Any person who has been convicted of a felony or bribery, forgery, perjury, or larceny is disqualified to sit as a juror, unless his or her civil rights have been restored.

A person under prosecution for any crime is disqualified.

Most government officials are disqualified to serve on a jury. An elected public official is not eligible to be a grand juror.

FREQUENTLY USED WORDS AND PHRASES

Throughout this handbook and during your term as a grand juror certain terms will occur frequently. Some of these are:

Capital Crime. A capital crime is any crime for which the maximum punishment is death.

Circuit Court. The State of Florida is divided into 20 judicial "circuits." Each circuit covers one or more counties. The circuit court is the highest trial court in the circuit.

Defendant. A "defendant" is a person who has been accused of a crime and is defending himself or herself in a court against the criminal charge. The words "defendant" and "accused" are used interchangeably.

Felony. A "felony" is any crime which is punishable by imprisonment in a state penitentiary for a term in excess of one year. A "misdemeanor" is any crime which is punishable by imprisonment in a county correctional facility for a term of not more than one year.

Indictment; True Bill. A "true bill" is a charge brought by the grand jury accusing a person of a crime. A true bill, when it is filed in court, then becomes an "indictment."

Judge. The judge presiding over the trial is often called or referred to as "the court."

No True Bill. A "no true bill" is a finding by the grand jury that on a given charge no indictment should be filed.

Presentment. A "presentment" is a presentation to the court of a grand jury's report of its actions and recommendations.

State Attorney. Each circuit in the State of Florida has a "state attorney" who, together with assistants, prosecutes all crimes and offenses in the circuit and county courts in the circuit. Some other states refer to this officer as a "district attorney" or "prosecuting attorney."

Statewide Prosecutor. The statewide prosecutor is appointed by the Attorney General of the State of Florida to investigate and prosecute certain multi-circuit criminal activity.

GRAND JURY AND PETIT JURY DISTINGUISHED

There are two kind of juries: grand juries and petit juries.

The grand jury consists of not fewer than 15 nor more than 21 (or 18 for statewide grand jury) members. A petit jury, depending upon the type of trial, consists of either 6 or 12 members.

The grand jury and the petit jury have entirely different purposes and functions. A petit jury actually tries a case and renders a verdict of guilty or not guilty after hearing both sides. A grand jury does not try a case on the issue of guilt or innocence. The grand jury rarely hears both sides. Its function is simply to hear witnesses as to a charge of crime, by the State, and to determine whether the person, or persons, so charged should be brought to trial. The grand jury has been called both a sword and shield of justice -- a sword because it is a terror to criminals, a shield because it is protection of the innocent against unjust prosecution.

The tremendous power of the grand jury obviously creates grave and solemn responsibilities to see that these powers are not perverted or abused. A grand jury, being possessed with these tremendous powers and unless motivated by the highest sense of justice, might find indictments not warranted by the evidence and thus become a source of oppression to the citizenry.

Conversely, a misguided grand jury might dismiss charges against those who should be prosecuted. The importance of the grand jury's power is emphasized by the fact that it is one of the most independent bodies known to the law.

HISTORY OF THE GRAND JURY

The grand jury originated more than seven centuries ago in England. It was recognized in the Magna Charta granted by King John of England upon the demand of the people in 1215 A.D. Its present form evolved in the period 1327 to 1377. Its origins can be traced back even further. As early as 997 A.D., a Danish king, "Ethelred the Unready," charged an investigative body of his reign that it should go about its duty by accusing no innocent person, and sheltering no guilty one.

This high principle is echoed in the oath that you took as a grand juror:

"You, as grand jurors for _____ County (or the statewide grand jury) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that you will diligently inquire into all matters put in your charge and you will make true presentments of your findings; unless ordered by a court, you will not disclose the nature or substance of the deliberations of the grand jury, the nature or substance of any testimony or other evidence, the vote of the grand jury, or the statements of the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor); you shall not make a presentment against a person because of envy, hatred, or malice, and you shall not fail to make a presentment against a person because of love, fear, or reward. So help you God."

The early colonists brought the grand jury system to this country from England. It has been with us ever since. It is recognized in the Constitution of the United States and in the Constitution of Florida.

(The Statewide Grand Jury was created in 1973 to "strengthen the grand jury system and enhance the ability of the State to detect and eliminate organized criminal activity by improving the evidence gathering process in matters which transpire or have significance in more than one county." Section 905.32, Florida Statutes.)

THE GRAND JURY AS AN ACCUSING
AND INVESTIGATING BODY

Our constitution provides that no person shall be brought to trial for a capital crime except upon indictment of a grand jury. This means that no one may be prosecuted for a capital crime except by a vote of the grand jury. Except for capital crimes, the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) may initiate all other criminal charges. The grand jury of course may indict for any crime that the evidence justifies.

The wisdom of leaving to the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) the bringing of charges as to crimes less than capital crimes and traffic violations is readily apparent. If the grand jury was required to initiate the prosecution of less serious crimes through indictment, the grand jury would be so overwhelmed with complaints that it could not perform its more important duties.

Charges of crime may be brought to your attention in several ways: by the court; by the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor); from personal knowledge brought to your body by any member of the grand jury; and, lastly, by private citizens who have a right to be heard by a grand jury in formal session and with the grand jury's consent. The bulk of the grand jury's work probably will be concerned with cases brought to its attention by the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor). In most instances a person being considered for indictment by the grand jury will have been held preliminarily on a charge brought before a judge sitting as a committing magistrate, who bound that person over for action by the grand jury. The accused will be either in custody or on bail. Your action, therefore, should be reasonably prompt in either voting an indictment as to the charge or returning a "no true bill."

The grand jury should consult with the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or an assistant state attorney (or the assistant statewide prosecutor) in advance of undertaking a formal investigation on the grand jury's own initiative.

A grand juror may not be subject to partisan secret influences. Consequently, no one has the right to approach a juror in order to persuade that juror that an indictment should or should not be found. Any individual who wishes to be heard by the grand jury should be referred to the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or to the foreperson of the grand jury, and thereafter be heard only in formal session of the grand jury.

It is imperative that you always keep in mind that as a grand juror you are a public official, with the duty of protecting the public by enforcing the law of the land. Therefore, even though you may think a certain law to be unduly harsh or illogical, that should not influence your judgment in carrying out your duties as a grand juror. A citizen has the right to endeavor to change the law. A grand juror, being a public official, has a duty to enforce the law as it exists despite any personal inclinations to the contrary.

The grand jury in addition to the duty of formally indicting those charged with crime has the further important duty of making investigations on its own initiative, which it will report as a "presentment." This duty permits investigation of how public officials are conducting their offices and discharging their public trusts. The grand jury may investigate as to whether public institutions are being properly administered and conducted. It has the power to inspect those institutions and, if necessary, may call before the grand jury those in charge of the operations of public institutions as well as any other person who has information and can testify concerning them. If the grand jury finds that an unlawful, improper, or corrupt condition exists, it may recommend a remedy.

The grand jury may not act arbitrarily. Investigations shall not be based upon street rumor, gossip, or whim, and the investigations cannot be the subject of a grand jury presentment. The grand jury can only investigate those matters that are within its jurisdiction, geographic and otherwise. The limitations of the grand jury's jurisdiction have been set forth for you by the court in its instructions.

It is important to keep in mind that no individual should be unjustly criticized or held up to scorn or public resentment, particularly when it is remembered that the individuals who may be criticized had no opportunity to defend themselves or give reply to the charges. A grand juror must keep in mind that the grand jury is the ultimate instrument of justice and should never be subverted to become the vehicle for harassment or oppression.

OFFICERS OF THE GRAND JURY

The judge who presided over the impaneling of the grand jury in the "charge to the grand jury" advised you formally and in great detail as to how the grand jury is organized and functions. In summary, the grand jury consists of 15 but no more than 21 members. Its officers are the foreperson, who will preside over the grand jury deliberations to make sure they are carried on in an orderly fashion including overseeing the examination of the witnesses; a vice-foreperson, who will preside in the absence of the foreperson or if for any reason the foreperson is not able to carry out his or her duty; and the clerk, who will keep a record of the proceedings had before the grand jury and formally make return of these records to the clerk of the circuit court (or clerk of the Supreme Court in the case of the statewide grand jury) for safekeeping. The foreperson and vice-foreperson are appointed by the judge and the clerk is appointed by the foreperson (or in the case of the statewide grand jury, may be selected by the group). The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or assistant state attorneys (or assistant statewide prosecutors) will act as the legal advisers to the grand jury. The grand jury also will be provided an official court reporter or recorder to record the testimony before the grand jury.

If the grand jury has its own budget, a treasurer of the grand jury may also be appointed to keep account of all receipts and disbursements made to or from the grand jury budget.

If any question should arise concerning how the grand jury shall operate or function, you may apply to the judge, who will advise you.

PROCEDURES

Not less than 15 members of a grand jury must always be present to constitute a quorum. If less than a quorum exists, the proceedings of the grand jury must be halted until a quorum is present. Grand jurors, who, because of an emergency, find that they will be unable to attend a grand jury session should advise the grand jury clerk or foreperson immediately.

An affirmative vote of at least 12 members of the grand jury is necessary to the return of a true bill or indictment. Therefore, even though a quorum is present it still requires at least 12 votes of individual members, rather than a mere majority of those present, in order to return a true bill.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE GRAND JURY

Most of the work of the grand jury involves hearing witnesses and determining the sufficiency of evidence on the issue of whether that evidence, without regard to possible defenses, justifies indictment. Generally, the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor) or assistant state attorneys (or assistant statewide prosecutors) will present and explain the charge to the grand jury and advise as to the witnesses who will be presented, either voluntarily or upon being summoned on the request of the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor) or the grand jury itself. The grand jury may call any witness it deems appropriate and necessary.

The witnesses will be called one by one and placed under oath to tell the truth. Generally, the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor) will administer the oath. This oath should be administered in a solemn, dignified, and deliberate manner in order to impress upon the witness the seriousness of the situation and the duty to be truthful. The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or assistant state attorneys (or assistant statewide prosecutors) ordinarily will undertake to question the witnesses first. If the foreperson, or any member of the grand jury desires to do so, they then also may propound questions. It is suggested, however, that any question first be submitted to the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor), who will determine whether the question is appropriate.

Grand jurors should keep in mind that they are acting in a judicial capacity and sitting in judgment of evidence before them. For this reason all questioning should be done in a calm, impartial, and objective manner without indicating the personal feelings of the person asking the questions.

Occasionally, a witness when brought before the grand jury refuses to testify or answer questions. If this occurs, both the question the witness has refused to answer and the fact of refusal should be carefully recorded. The matter then should be brought before the court, with a complete copy of the record, in order to obtain from the court a ruling on whether the witness may be compelled to answer the question. In most instances a refusal to answer is based upon the claim of the witness that the answer will violate the constitutional right against self-incrimination. If the answer does tend to incriminate the witness, the witness cannot be made to answer. If it does not, however, the witness will be ordered to answer under penalty of contempt.

An accused person cannot be compelled to testify before a grand jury although one under investigation by the grand jury may appear voluntarily to testify. In that event, however, the grand jury should proceed with great caution and should not permit one under investigation to testify until after first conferring with the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor). If an accused, or any person under investigation, is permitted to testify before the grand jury without waiving the constitutional right against self-incrimination, any indictment or presentment would be null and void.

It is clear that the matter of forcing a witness to testify or of giving the accused an opportunity to testify raises complicated legal questions. The advice of the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) and, when necessary, a ruling from the court, therefore, always should be sought when these questions arise.

A witness is permitted to be represented before the grand jury by one attorney. The attorney may be present for the purpose of advising and consulting with the witness, but may not address the grand jurors, raise objections, or make arguments. (This provision does not apply to proceedings of the Statewide Grand Jury.)

DETERMINATION WHETHER TO RETURN AN
INDICTMENT OR A NO TRUE BILL

When the grand jury has heard all necessary or available witnesses and is prepared to deliberate on the issue whether to indict or return a no true bill, the foreperson must compel all persons to leave the grand jury room except the members of the grand jury themselves. No other person is permitted in the grand jury room during its deliberations, even including the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor), court reporter, and interpreter.

When the question of whether to indict or return a no true bill is presented, all grand jurors have the right to comment on the evidence and to express their views of the matter. Only when all members of the grand jury have expressed themselves and each has been given the opportunity to be heard should a vote be taken. A vote to return an indictment can be found only upon the affirmative vote of at least 12 members of the grand jury.

Similar proceedings should be taken when the matter to be discussed is not a criminal charge or indictment but a presentment, as noted above.

If all persons, except the grand jurors, are not removed from the grand jury room during its deliberations, any indictment or presentment would be nullified.

THE STATE ATTORNEY (OR THE STATEWIDE PROSECUTOR)
AS LEGAL ADVISOR TO THE GRAND JURY

The court in its charge to the grand jury outlined the part that the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) will play in assisting the grand jury. The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) will assume responsibility for presenting witnesses and bringing testimony before the grand jury. The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) is a public official and is entitled to the confidence and cooperation of the grand jury.

It occurs sometimes, however, that even the best of advisors may be in error. If a difference of opinion arises between the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) and the grand jury and it cannot be resolved amicably, the matter should be brought before the presiding judge for a ruling.

SECRECY OF GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS

Secrecy as to all grand jury proceedings is of the utmost importance. This includes not only the actions upon an indictment or a presentment but even the fact that any such matter was considered, or any witness was called. It is only in this manner that the grand jurors themselves can be protected from pressure by persons who may be involved by the action of the grand jury. Secrecy also is the only protection that a witness may have before a grand jury, which will protect the witness from being tampered with or intimidated before testifying at the trial. Further, secrecy may prevent one under indictment, or subject to indictment, from escaping while the issue of indictment is under consideration. It also should be remembered that secrecy may encourage witnesses to give the grand jury frankly and candidly any knowledge they may have concerning crime or corruption. Lastly, and of equal importance to all other consideration of secrecy, is the fact that an innocent person who has been subjected to a charge but not indicted should be protected from the embarrassment and disgrace attendant upon the making of a charge before a grand jury.

The pledge of secrecy is paramount. It also is permanent.

A grand juror will not communicate to family, friends, associates, or anyone concerning any matter that takes place in the grand jury room. The only time this veil of secrecy may be lifted is by order of the court after a full hearing, and then only in exceptional cases.

PROTECTION AND IMMUNITY OF GRAND JURORS

Grand jurors are fully protected from actions against them by being an independent body answerable to no one except the court that empanels it. No inquiry may be made to learn what grand jurors said or how they voted. The law gives the grand juror complete immunity for official acts. There is only one exception: if a grand juror testifies as a witness for the grand jury as to a commission of a crime and that testimony is perjured, the juror could be prosecuted for that perjury. This complete protection for the official acts obviously is vital to the operation of the grand jury and points up that grand jurors should be citizens of unquestionable integrity and high character.

ON BEING A GRAND JUROR --
SOME PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS

Attend all sessions of the grand jury. Your attendance should be regular and on time. If you are unable to attend a session and wish to be excused, obtain permission from the foreperson. The unexpected lack of a quorum could cause a great loss of money, as well as the time of the jurors, the authorities, and the witnesses. The public is depending on you.

Pay close attention to testimony given and the evidence presented.

Be courteous to the witnesses and your fellow jurors.

Fix the time and place of your meetings, keeping in mind the convenience of the public and the witnesses as well as yourselves and the state attorney (and the statewide prosecutor).

Do not interrupt until the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) has finished questioning the witness. In all probability the evidence you are interested in will be brought out by those questions.

Listen to the opinions of your fellow jurors, but maintain your own independent viewpoint.

Be independent, but not obstinate.

Be absolutely fair. You are acting as a judge. You therefore must be guided by your own good conscience and sense of justice.

All jurors have an equal voice in determining whether an indictment shall be returned. Each of you has a right to state your reasons.

Do not remain silent when the case is under discussion and then, after a decision has been made, criticize the acts of the grand jury.

A reckless grand jury is as bad as a weak grand jury.

Do not attempt to investigate matters beyond the province of the grand jury, or merely because someone suggested an investigation.

Above all, refrain from discussing grand jury matters with fellow jurors outside of the grand jury room.

Each juror has a duty and responsibility equal to yours. Each juror is entitled to be satisfied with the evidence. If others wish to pursue a matter further, no effort should be made to dismiss the witness or shut off proper discussion.

CONCLUSION

Your membership on the grand jury is an honor. You are one of the few citizens who have been called upon to perform this service. Your service as a grand juror will be a source of pride and satisfaction to you if you devote to it the responsible participation and dedicated service that the grand jury is entitled to expect from its members.

Comment

The grand jury handbook was initially approved in 1981. It was amended in 1991, in June 2002, and September 2005.

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NANCY GRACE

Homicide Charge May Be Brought Against Missing Toddler`s Mother

Aired October 8, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Reports surface the state is set to seek homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony. WKMG reports the case heads to a secret grand jury in days. The only question, will the charge be manslaughter or murder? Even without a body, homicide charges reportedly will be handed down.

And in the last hours, hundreds of stunning documents and grainy surveillance video released. Mom, Casey, allegedly forges a stack of checks at the bank, Target, the grocery store, you name it! And it`s all caught on tape. Her 2-year-old vanishes, and she`s on surveillance video splurging on lingerie, clothing, sunglasses, sportswear, groceries for the boyfriends, even cases of Bud Lite. Notably, not one diaper, not one pacifier, not a toy -- nothing! -- for little Caylee. This as police confirm a surveillance camera trained 24/7/365 on the Anthony home. Tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. CNN affiliate WKMG reports that tot mom Casey Anthony may soon be facing homicide charges relating to the disappearance of her daughter. The station`s reporting that the state attorney`s office plans to present its case to a grand jury next week, who will then determine if the state has enough evidence to charge Anthony with manslaughter or murder. According to WKMG, the state hopes to charge Anthony even without Caylee`s body being found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Regardless of how it happened -- (INAUDIBLE) I don`t care. I will lie, I will steal, I will do whatever I can to find my daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee, is missing. So what`s she doing? She`s out buying lingerie. Check out the video here. It`s Casey checking out at Target, buying the food, beer, the lingerie, of course. Prosecutors say she paid for that and other stuff by cashing hundreds of dollars worth of checks from her friend`s bank account, and today they released this video, along with other documents in their check fraud case against Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Check number 146 from her ex-best friend`s checkbook. Investigators say this is one of the checks she used to clean out Amy Huizenga`s checking account.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: The grandmother -- came in and she goes, I hope you`re rich because Casey`s going to take all your money and leave you high and dry.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huh?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace, I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. Sources tell CNN affiliate WKMG that Caylee`s mother, 22-year-old Casey Anthony, could be facing homicide charges in the coming days. The Orlando station reports the grand jury is expected to meet next week, and that is where prosecutors will present their case, asking the grand jury to conclude they have enough evidence to take Anthony to trial on manslaughter or murder charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today they released this video, along with other documents in their check fraud case against Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We see that she purchased that hoody that she was wearing when she was arrested. We also see she purchased those white sunglasses that she`s become known for wearing now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Records show Amy Huizenga told detectives Casey stole her checkbook and emptied her account, writing more than $700 in forged checks to Target, Winn Dixie, and even to herself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I kept say, Well, I don`t get it. What`s in it for you? Why are you letting, you know, the police get involved with this? This seems -- this doesn`t make any sense to me. She`s, like, Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago. I`ve stolen money from Mom. I`ve been a bad daughter. You know, I`ve been -- she said, I`ve stolen money from you. You know, I`ve been untrustworthy, you know. And she goes, And maybe I have been a -- you know, a bad mother, a daughter and sister. And she said, you know, So this should have been done a long time ago.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lied to us purposely (ph), or you tried to mislead us. Which of those two is it?

CASEY ANTHONY: I purposely misled you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you purposely misled us. This was all in an attempt to help find your daughter, right? That makes sense to you, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Again, in a backwards sort of way, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with CNN affiliate WKMG, who broke the story that prosecutors plan to seek homicide charges in the coming days against tot mom Casey Anthony. Jessica, what do you know?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, they are going to bring this in front of a grand jury on Tuesday. I`m still trying to find out whether they are planning to bring a manslaughter charge or whether they want to present a murder charge in front of this grand jury.

But I can tell you that people have already been asked to clear their schedules for Tuesday because they are going to be subpoenaed to appear in front of that grand jury and testify in front of them. You`re going to see friends, you`re going to see family, you`re going to see detectives, you`re going to see lab techs subpoenaed to go and testify in front of this grand jury. And of course, Casey could be subpoenaed, as well, but she does not have to talk to them.

Now, as we have been mentioning, you know, you can bring this case and prosecute without a body, and you know, if they can`t convince this grand jury to go and send this to trial, we know that they can still try and try again after that because murder has no statute of limitations here. And you`ve got to remember, too, that the prosecution, as we have been reporting for weeks now, they have hair samples, air samples, cadaver dogs alerting to a decomposing body in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. And you also have that chloroform found at high levels in the trunk.

So you also have to remember, too, we might not know everything that the prosecution has at this point. They could have a much stronger case than we know. So we`re going to see what happens...

GRACE: We just lost Jessica. We`ll get her right back up. That`s Jessica D`Onofrio joining us from Orlando, Florida. She`s with WKMG that breaks the story, murder charge, homicide charges set to come down in the coming days.

We are taking your calls live. We`ll be right back with Jessica. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta and fellow defense attorney John Burris out of San Francisco. John Burris, why would you give the grand jury anything less than a murder case? Because it will be up to a petite jury, which is a jury of 12 -- a grand jury is a jury between 18 and 43 people that simply bring the charges -- and then let the jury of 12 decide whether it will be voluntary, involuntary, murder, murder one or not guilty.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Actually, I agree with you on this because I think, given that they do not have -- the evidence that they have, if they`re going to use it for any kind of homicide, can be used either for murder or manslaughter because, actually, they have no information as to whether it`s murder or manslaughter.

So I think that what they`re really doing here is throwing the kitchen sink out here and see if something will stick. But once you do that, it could be murder or manslaughter because you don`t have the mens rea, the mental state, to tell you what actually happened during the course of this homicide, assuming that there is a homicide. You know...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa-whoa! Whoa-whoa! Whoa-whoa! Hold your horses, John, because one thing, and it`s very critical as to the date of this element, the search on Casey Anthony`s computer regarding chloroform. That, to me, would suggest premeditation, since chloroform in large amounts was found in her car trunk, along with evidence of a dead body. That in itself could prove premeditation for murder one.

BURRIS: Well, that`s true. I mean, I don`t disagree that there`s evidence out here that would cause that. But I don`t know that you take these things apiece by themselves and take the chloroform and put that out there, I don`t know that that proves anything other than it`s chloroform. You don`t have any...

GRACE: Well -- hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey...

BURRIS: ... way to tie it into...

GRACE: ... hey, hey, hey! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! We`re not at the jury rail yet, Burris!

BURRIS: Oh, no question about it.

GRACE: We`re still going to the grand jury. Right now...

BURRIS: You`re right.

GRACE: ... all we`re getting is a charging document. Yes, no, Renee Rockwell?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let me just put it this way, Nancy. I think they`re going to present what they have. And we don`t know what they have. But Nancy, if they throw it all up now and the jury says, No, you don`t have enough, they`re not out of the ball game. They can come back three months from now. So it`ll be interesting to see what does shake out from this grand jury.

GRACE: And she`s referring to -- Renee is referring to the ability for the state to go to a grand jury, a secret grand jury, repeatedly in order to get charges handed down. Not so before a petite jury, a jury of 12. Once you take the case to a jury at trial, that`s it. You cannot retry the case if there is an acquittal.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. You said this may be presented to a grand jury for homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony as early as Tuesday?

D`ONOFRIO: That`s right, Nancy. That`s what they`d like to do. This grand jury has been sitting for a few months now, so I believe they`re going to get this in. This will be the last case that the grand jury hears on Tuesday before it dissolves, and then they`ll be seating a brand-new grand jury for the next couple months ahead.

So I believe that Lawson Lamar (ph), our state attorney, is going to get this case in front of this grand jury before they`re dissolved and before another one has to be seated.

GRACE: Right now, you are seeing footage we have just obtained of mom, Casey Anthony`s, shopping spree throughout the days following her little girl`s disappearance.

And out to you, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, if I were conducting a search for somebody that I loved that had gone missing, you got to have a couple of these along with you!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: You know, she goes out and buys sexy lingerie, cases of beer, sportswear, sunglasses. In fact, she even buys that hoody that we see her going in and out of her lawyer`s office wearing, on somebody else`s checks. These are all stolen items.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Unbelievable, Nancy. And in fact, maybe she had on the new camisole underneath her hoody when she got locked up on July 16. But if you look at July 15, the day that her whole world came crumbling down, Amy Huizenga, her best friend`s checking account, that was $49.99, but her statement on June 20, there was $2,125.47. That`s what I call a really best friend.

GRACE: And I want to go back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell and John Burris. There`s the hoody right there on the left that she basically stole, according to the state, with stolen checks. Her friend -- dropped her friend off at the airport. Isn`t this right, Mark Williams? Drops the friend, Amy Huizenga, off at the airport -- Mark with us, WNDB Newsradio -- and within a couple of hours has cleaned out her car of all the checks that were in the glove compartment. She`s out at Target.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Oh, yes. She discovered those checks and she went on that shopping spree, eventually using about $1,300 worth of Amy`s money, anything from the hoodies to the bras to you name it, but nothing for Caylee.

GRACE: Mark, I don`t care about the bra and the items. What I care about is what does this mean about her state of mind regarding her missing little girl? Take a look. You decide. Look at her on her shopping spree.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I went day by day with Jesse, and he`s got a lot of discrepancies. In fact, I wrote down everything as he was talking to me, and he changed his story two and three times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesse not only took a voluntary lie detector and passed, he went to law enforcement and gave two official statements before Cindy`s even given one. In that interview, if you look, they can`t even get her to give them her credit card records.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve asked you for your credit card records. I asked you for that that same morning. Where are they?

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s nothing on there. We already looked at them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. See, that`s the answer I can`t have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Breaking news tonight, the state apparently taking this case to the grand jury next week, according to local affiliate WKMG. I`m not talking about bad checks or fraud, even though here you see on grainy surveillance video tot mom Casey Anthony loading up on the Bud Lite in her search for little Caylee. We`re talking about homicide charges.

We`re taking your calls live. Out to Luanne in South Carolina. Hi, Luanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. We really appreciate everything that you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I have the facts straight, Casey had a huge argument with her mother before she left their house with Caylee, correct?

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I really think that whatever she did to Caylee, she did out of spite towards her mother. But how much time elapsed from the time she left her parents` house and when she was having these shopping sprees and also when the car was found?

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer, who has been in Orlando from the beginning. What`s the timeline on that, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, she had the argument on June 15. Now, she started the shopping spree on July 8, and the car was found at the Amscot, were (ph) reported there about June 30.

GRACE: There you go. Those are the dates, the relevant dates that Luanne in South Carolina wanted to know about. Repeat, Natisha. When was the car found at Amscot??

LANCE: June 30.

GRACE: June 30. She leaves June 15, car abandoned June 30. She`s still gone from the home. The family finds out about the car because they get a tow notice, correct, Natisha?

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: And then the mom goes over to the boyfriend`s house to bring tot mom back home on what day?

LANCE: She goes over there on July 15.

GRACE: And the shopping spree that you are seeing for groceries for her boyfriend, a case of Bud Lite, bras, lingerie, nighties, clothing, sunglasses, sportswear, food -- that`s just a tiny bit of what all she bought during her search for Caylee.

And you know -- to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter joining me out of Sacramento, California -- he first put up the $500,000 bond to get her out of jail before he came off that bond. I don`t care about the -- let`s see, the $14.99 nighty she bought or the case of beer. You know what? I`d be mad if you didn`t, Casey Anthony. But what I`m concerned about, Leonard, is what this will say to a jury when they see with their own eyes her state of mind while her child was missing.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The loudest statement that those purchases will make is there`s nothing in there -- there isn`t an item in there for Caylee.

But let me correct something that Natisha said. The car was actually spotted parked at the Amscot by Mrs. Sanchez (ph), the manager of the store there, on the morning of the 27. We believe and we are pretty sure we know that she came back out of Tony`s house around 10:00 o`clock that morning, drove the car off to her mom`s, called J.C. Penney, then went on further towards the airport, where -- my associate, Rob Dick, has narrowed down an area by the airport where he believes the body will be found. And Tim from Equusearch is headed out there in the morning. And I`m telling you, I`m putting my money on Tim finding that body before Tuesday.

GRACE: You know, another thing. And Natisha, there is a difference from the time the car was first spotted and when it was reported. I think you were accurate in your data on that, but Padilla is correct about the spotting, the day the car was spotted, run out of gas, there at the check cash place.

Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, John Burris. You know, this list of people that may be going before the grand jury -- John Burris, very often, when I would present to a grand jury, I would bring on maybe the victim, if it were a violent crime, but typically, you bring on the detective. You don`t need a parade of witnesses. A detective, hearsay, the course of conduct, everything`s allowed in a grand jury proceeding, unlike at trial.

So very often, you don`t need a parade of witnesses. You can bring on one or two of the detectives on the case to present the case to the grand jury, John.

BURRIS: Well, that`s actually true. But I think that this case here, they want to present as much evidence as they can because, actually, a lot of this evidence is circumstantial. And they really want to get a -- some feedback, if they can, from the grand jury members to see how this evidence really is playing out. Typically, you would not go before the grand jury unless you thought you were going to get some kind of an indictment of some kind. But I think they also want to hear the feedback from the jury. They want to hear the firsthand testimony because otherwise, it may not be evidence that can withstand cross-examination.

GRACE: You know, Renee, I feel the exact opposite, as a former prosecutor, because I want to keep that case to the grand jury lean and mean. A detective can talk about hearsay, what every witness told him or her. Why bring in the witness for cross-examination because that grand jury transcript may have to be handed over to the defense come trial time. Why give them a how-to manual!

ROCKWELL: And if it is -- that testimony is transcribed and recorded and can be changed, and then you`ll have a witness that can be impeached. But Nancy, don`t you think it`s interesting that this is the last case of this grand jury term? And a lot of times, the prosecutor will strategically put a case in front of a well-seasoned and experienced grand jury because sometimes, you`ll get a different read from that grand jury than you will from a brand-new grand jury. I just think it`s interesting.

GRACE: I think that`s a good point. Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who broke the story. Jessica, you said that a lot of people may expect subpoenas to grand jury next week on homicide charges for mom, Casey Anthony. Have subpoenas been received yet?

D`ONOFRIO: No, Nancy, they haven`t. I haven`t heard that they have gone out today. You know, the question was, would they cut them today, tomorrow, maybe closer to Friday. I know that the initial plan was to send them out on Monday so that people would know to be there on Tuesday. However, they have a lot of people that they are likely serving for this grand jury, so it may take them a couple days to serve those subpoenas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face. You know, if there was laundry to be done, she would take care of that. You know, she would cook dinner sometimes in the evenings for us when we got home. I think one night, she made pasta for everyone.

GRACE: Did she ever mention over the pasta dinner that her 2-year-old girl was gone?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Bombshell tonight. According to WKMG`s Jessica D`Onofrio, homicide charges expected to come down next week before a Florida grand jury. Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. Any idea who will be called before the grand jury?

D`ONOFRIO: I know that George Anthony has been asked to clear his schedule for Tuesday. I know Cindy has, too. Those are two definites. I`ve also -- I also understand that you will hear from lab technicians, from detectives, that they will be subpoenaed, as well. And of course, you`re going to probably hear from her friends, Tony Lazzaro, him being an ex-boyfriend, and most likely Amy Huizenga.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I found out the -- night of the 15th when Casey actually was at my apartment, and her mother and Amy showed up to my house.

They left, and I had no idea. So I looked up Amy`s phone in Casey`s phone and gave her a call, and she notified me to check my bank account and everybody else in my apartment check their bank account because she took money from her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Just released and obtained by us, this surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony in the days after her little girl reportedly goes missing. There she is buying a case of Bud Lite along with different pit stops during her shopping spree, lingerie, clothing, sports wear, sunglasses, groceries for her boyfriend, and his roommates.

It`s not so much what she bought that is at issue tonight, as this case apparently heads to a grand jury on homicide charges. It`s the timing. Timing is crucial. These purchases made in the days and weeks following the alleged kidnapping by a nanny of her little girl.

A jury, a grand jury, as well, will be allowed to see this video to assess for themselves her demeanor.

Straight out to the lines, to Jennifer in Washington, hi, Jennifer.

JENNIFER, WASHINGTON RESIDENT: Hi. First I have a comment, and then a question. My comment is -- it`s just nauseating to me that the general public who isn`t even blood lines with Caylee seems to show more concern for her than her own mother does.

And being that Casey seems to tell these huge whoppers of lies that are obviously going to be easily proven to be lies, I`m wondering, is her pathological lying -- is that a symptom of a mental illness? Is it a mental illness in its own right, or is it just what it is? It`s just her pathological lying to get whatever she wants.

GRACE: Excellent question, Jennifer in Washington.

Out to Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, what about it, Leslie?

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s a great question. It`s one of a list of characteristics that are very, very powerfully indicating extreme sociopathy here. This is a person who`s perfectly happy to clearly break the law, is only concerned with herself, is not focused on her child, and is conducting apparently criminal behavior.

GRACE: OK.

AUSTIN: So the pathological lies exist.

GRACE: Can you speak -- speak in English for me? Sociopathy? Are you saying, Dr. Austin, that she has a legitimate mental illness?

AUSTIN: No, I`m not saying it`s...

GRACE: OK.

AUSTIN: . a mental illness that excuses her actions but it is descriptive of someone who would commit criminal acts. There`s a characteristic behavior.

GRACE: OK, yes, no?

AUSTIN: Yes, she would criminal act.

GRACE: Is it a symptom of a mental illness? That`s the question.

AUSTIN: It`s a personality disorder, not a mental illness.

GRACE: Got it.

AUSTIN: She.

GRACE: Thank you, Dr. Leslie Austin.

AUSTIN: OK.

GRACE: Back to the lines, June in Florida. Hi, June.

JUNE, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

JUNE: I have a couple of question. We see how Casey did her first search for her daughter. The judge, she is asking for a second search. Did the judge allow that? Have we.

GRACE: That is going to the judge on Friday. She will make a cameo appearance in court.

June, what`s your next question?

JUNE: And is Equifax or Equusearch, are they going to do another search this weekend? I live in Florida.

GRACE: June -- oh, June, good to know. Let`s go straight to Mandy Albritton, the deputy director of Equusearch.

Miss Albritton, thank you for being with us. You`re headed back -- Equusearch is headed back this week, correct?

MANDY ALBRITTON, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, EQUUSEARCH: Well, actually, Tim Miller is on his way back into town. First he`s going to be meeting with Orlando on the (INAUDIBLE) case, but while he is down there, he is going to go ahead and review that search area where we were last time, look at the ground conditions, see if the water has receded, and if the vegetation is going to allow us to get in and search.

GRACE: So I take that as a yes. Equusearch is headed back to Florida, hopefully to search for Caylee.

ALBRITTON: Well, that is a yes. However, the official time line on when we`re actually going to have searchers in the field is yet to be determined. But, yes, we are coming back.

GRACE: To Mark Williams, the area that Leonard Padilla refers us to repeatedly, what type of area is that?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: It`s a typical unincorporated area of Orange County. We`re taking a look at a lot of woods, we`re taking a look at some water out in that area.

That`s why Equusearch really couldn`t get into the real good searching mode, because we had a tropical storm which blew through here a couple weeks ago.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And what happened is some of these low-lying areas filled up and as Tim mentioned last night on the air, he didn`t want to go stepping on any evidence, like the horses or put anybody else in danger. But if anybody can find anybody, it will be Tim Miller.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. In a nutshell, where is it that you believe they`re going to search?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I don`t have the map here in front of me, but it`s just southeast of the home, northwest to the airport. There is a small area there where the two towers -- she was right in the middle of the two towers.

Now let me add something to this that`s very important. On the 27th after she goes back to Amscot and picks up her car, goes to the house, comes to this area, immediately thereafter, she calls Amy and she says, "I got rid of the smell in the car. I scraped off the squirrels."

You go to the transcripts, and you`ll read that and it`s a -- minutes after she leaves that area and goes back up north to Amscot.

GRACE: OK. And the area is south of what?

PADILLA: It`s south of the residence and north of the airport. It`s just right in between there.

GRACE: OK. To -- and that is a heavily wooded or swampy area, Leonard?

PADILLA: It`s a little of both. There`s combinations. But there`s a road that cuts through from the northwest to the southeast. It cuts right through there. I don`t have a map with me, so it`s difficult to explain. But there is an area right there.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified pathologist joining us out of Denver, Colorado -- Dr. Arnall, thank you for being with us. If the remains are found at this point, you are now familiar with the weather and the terrain conditions, what would you expect to find if the remains were discovered?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If the remains are found above ground, small animals will likely have scattered the bones. It`s been hot, it`s been humid, there`s been insect activity. A lot of the soft tissue will have been removed.

However, if the body was underground or perhaps even under water, a lot of that disruption may not have occurred and there may still be forensic evidence present.

GRACE: Dr. Arnall, do you believe, if remains are found at this time, we will be able to determine cause of death?

ARNALL: If they`re underground? It`s entirely possible. If there are broken bones, and they find those bones, yes, they`ll be able to diagnose broken bones and make a diagnosis on the cause of death.

GRACE: But a broken bone a murder does not make. If there were -- there was only soft tissue damaged such as by smothering or strangulation, I don`t believe you`re going to be able to determine that if the remains are found now.

ARNALL: If the person was smothered with a plastic bag, the plastic bag may still be around the skull. If the person was strangled, the hyoid bone may be broken. And they may be able to make that diagnosis.

I agree with you, I agree with you that decomposition has a significant possibility of obscuring evidence. However, if they find ligatures or plastic bag over the head or duct tape around the mouth or a gag around the mouth.

GRACE: Right.

ARNALL: Then they will use that nonhuman evidence to assist them in making the diagnosis.

GRACE: And very quickly, Liz, please go back to Dr. Michael Arnall. Could you show us the hyoid bone, please?

ARNALL: The hyoid bone is right above your Adam`s apple in the neck, and when a person is strangled, when pressure is placed around the voice box, you can break that little horseshoe shaped bone that`s right above the voice box...

GRACE: Right.

ARNALL: . right above your Adam`s apple.

GRACE: And to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- Mike, weigh in.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, I think the grand jury is going to be the most important thing right now. You`ve got 82 people on this list, 35 of them are law enforcement.

If they`re going to take a number of the law enforcement, they`re going to testify, evidence technicians and also, another key person on putting together this time line -- Leonard is talking about the towers -- and that`s going to be the custodian of records for AT&T, her cell phone carrier.

They`re going to be able to come on and talk about the time line, where she was on a certain date at a certain place, and that`s going to play a key role in putting -- in putting this whole thing together.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, absolutely correct. Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live.

Homicide charges set to come down next week against tot mom Casey Anthony. And this case makes me appreciate my blessings even more.

At your request, photos of the twins. John David in his big-boy pajamas for the first time. I had to get Lucy new ones, as well.

Oh, we`re taking them on a sleigh ride across the den floor in a laundry basket.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

GRANDMOTHER: I have a 22-year-old person that has grand theft, including in my auto, with me.

OPERATOR: So the 22-year-old person stole something?

GRANDMOTHER: Yes.

OPERATOR: Is this a relative?

GRANDMOTHER: Yes.

OPERATOR: Where did they steal it from?

GRANDMOTHER: My car and also money.

OPERATOR: OK. Is this your son?

GRANDMOTHER: Daughter.

OPERATOR: OK. So your daughter stole money from your car?

GRANDMOTHER: No. My car was stolen, we`ve retrieved it today, we found out where it was at. We retrieved it. I got that, and I`ve got affidavits to my banking account. I want to bring her in.

OPERATOR: OK.

GRANDMOTHER: I want to press charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Breaking news tonight. According to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, she is breaking the story that prosecutors plan to take this case to a grand jury next week, seeking homicide charges.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. Jessica, I know we don`t know right now specifically what charge prosecutors will seek. What is your take?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG REPORTER, BROKE STORY THAT STATE PLANS TO SEEK HOMICIDE CHARGES: You know, Nancy, that`s a good question. I`m a little surprised that they brought this case to a grand jury so soon. So I don`t know if I`d be the right person to ask, because I`ve been hearing al along -- I pretty much thought no body, no case here.

So I`ve been operating under the assumption that they would wait quite some time before they brought some kind of a homicide case to a grand jury.

GRACE: So bottom line, we don`t know what the charge is going to be?

D`ONOFRIO: I don`t know, Nancy. I wish I did. And I`m trying to find out.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. A homicide case without a body is not uncommon. The prosecutors typically do not give a gold star to murderers that manage to hide or disassemble the body.

BROOKS: Oh absolutely not, Nancy. You know, everybody is saying, well, if she is charged now with either homicide or manslaughter, will she get a deal? She was offered a deal a long time ago, if you recall, Nancy, that limited immunity deal.

So I say if she`s indicted and they get -- there`s a grand jury (INAUDIBLE), they arrest her for either homicide or manslaughter, there is not going to be any deal because one has already been on the table and that`s it.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, out of Atlanta, John Burris, attorney out of San Francisco.

John Burris, what are the choices? What are the choices, in a nutshell -- don`t go pontificating on me -- that would be given to a grand jury as far as charges go?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they have to -- murder, and they don`t have to define whether it`s first or second and on manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter.

My sense is, right now, given everything are that they will go with murder. They can always go down from there, but I think they have as much evidence on murder as they have for manslaughter, so you go for the most you can get. That`s assuming you can get it.

GRACE: Well.

BURRIS: Now I`m not convinced they can get it.

GRACE: . I`ve got one thing I want to add. I think they can easily get an indictment.

Renee, I think.

BURRIS: Well, you (INAUDIBLE).

GRACE: What? What, Burris?

BURRIS: When the grand jury goes forward, they generally get an indictment.

GRACE: Yes.

BURRIS: . when the prosecutor makes a request. That generally happens. It doesn`t happen -- they don`t reject it very often.

GRACE: To.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Can I just jump in and say one thing. It might not be an indictment that they`re seeking right now, because don`t forget, you can use the grand jury as an investigative tool.

82 witnesses, 35 of them are law enforcement. Those other witnesses, including Casey`s parents, are going to be made to testify, and it will be interesting to get their stories locked down, Nancy.

GRACE: To Renee, I was about to ask you. I agree with Burris, except I would add in one other charge. Since nobody asked me, I think they should add in a request for a felony murder charge. What that would mean.

ROCKWELL: Based on the chloroform?

GRACE: Yes. What that would mean is, if a jury chose to believe that mom Casey Anthony was assaulting the child, such as chloroforming her, or shaking her, and a death occurred, that would be treated as a murder under the felony murder statute. A death that occurs in the commission of a felony, Renee, yes or no?

ROCKWELL: That`s right, I agree with you.

GRACE: You think that they will?

ROCKWELL: I think that they`ll throw it up.

BURRIS: I think you need a body for that, though. I think you need a body for that, because you`re talking about.

ROCKWELL: Well, you have to have a theory for it.

GRACE: You do. You got to have.

BURRIS: I know. You got to have a body. I think you`ve got to have a theory for the aggravated assault, you`re right, Renee.

Burris, they have to have a theory on the ag assault. They have to have a theory, such as aggravated assault by smothering, aggravated assault by -- chloroform.

BURRIS: And they got to have some evidence for that.

GRACE: And they don`t necessarily have that.

BURRIS: They need the body for that. I think they need a body.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

BURRIS: I think we got to have a body for that.

GRACE: Agree. Agree. I agree with the two of you. Legally.

To Corie in North Carolina, hi, Corie.

CORIE, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CORIE: I was wondering, when it shows her buying the beer at Target, was she using Amy`s i.d., because she clearly shows an ID and then write the check.

GRACE: Well, you`re never going to believe this, Corie.

To Mark Williams, explain how she wrote some of the checks.

WILLIAMS: Well, her first check that she wrote on July 8th, she bought some things at Target, and she signed her name to Amy Huizinga`s check.

GRACE: Her own name.

WILLIAMS: You bet. And the clerk never even checked, because we could have nipped this in the bud a long time ago, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes. What it was she used her identification, Casey Anthony signed her name, Casey Anthony to Huizinga`s check.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: And they checked the I.D. to signature, but not to the top of the check.

Out to Anne in New York, hi, Anne.

ANNE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I just want to applaud you for all of your efforts. I enjoy your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

ANNE: I have two questions, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

ANNE: It`s so upsetting. Number one, I understand the biological father was married. Did anyone ever check out with the -- the wife?

GRACE: OK. What`s the second question?

ANNE: The other one is, again, I applaud for all of the efforts, but I wanted to know, with everything exposed, nationally, how is Casey Anthony going to get a fair trial?

GRACE: Well, you do recall the O.J. Simpson double murder trial, right, Anne? Do I still have Anne, Elizabeth?

Anne, do you recall the O.J. Simpson murder trial?

ANNE: Yes, I do.

GRACE: That was a not guilty and I would challenge you and your theory that this case has received about as much or a little less attention than O.J. Simpson got and he got a not guilty. So believe me.

ANNE: Yes, I do.

GRACE: . you can get an impartial jury. But as to the bio dad question, what about it, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, as far as we know, that was the first time I`ve heard that he may have been married. But the Florida Highway Patrol says he was killed in a traffic accident here in the Orlando area more than a year ago.

So that`s where that -- that issue was ended and the minute they brought up they -- one television station went to the parents and they denied that their son every impregnated Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Back to Jessica D`Onofrio, do you believe that anyone else in the Anthony family other than the mom and dad will testify before the grand jury?

D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely. And going back to, you know, listening to everybody talk earlier is that, I can assure you that no one should underestimate the investigation here. There`s a lot more we have not heard in -- that`s been in the public yet. Trust me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Paul in Arkansas, hi Paul.

PAUL, ARKANSAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

PAUL: If the grand jury indicts her and charge her with manslaughter, if he finds her guilty, can they go back and recharge her for murder or.

GRACE: No.

PAUL: Or would that be double jeopardy?

GRACE: That would be double jeopardy -- they`ll be charges stemming out of the same incident. Good question. That`s why I think they should go -- try to go with murder one and if the jury wants to respond, the petite jury of 12, wants to come back with a lesser, at least they have the opportunity to go with murder one.

Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, what do you make? What do you make of the grand jury, allegedly, reportedly, hearing charges on homicide on Tuesday? Think it will stick?

PADILLA: Yes. And let me tell you why they brought it to the grand jury on the last day, because that gives them two bites of the apple. In other words, if this jury for some reason or others, were to reject the charges and not indict her, they got a new one coming right around the corner.

And that`s why sometimes the prosecutor will bring one in at the end of the jury`s term, and -- knowing that if they get rejected, they got a new one right around the corner.

GRACE: And Leonard.

PADILLA: But she`s going to get indicted.

GRACE: . what do you make of Equusearch coming back to search for little Caylee?

PADILLA: They`ve complete the ping list. They`ve got the longitude, the latitude point of references where she made her phone calls.

GRACE: They didn`t have that before?

PADILLA: It`s a very lengthy, lengthy process and I don`t believe law enforcement wanted to turn it loose before they went to the grand jury. Equusearch is going out there to see what the conditions on the ground in that area are.

And I could tell you this, that she`s got about five days in which to cancel that grand jury indictment and that is by giving up where the body is, because if she doesn`t give it up, that grand jury is going to go through and then there`s no retreat from that.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Steven Christofferson, 20, Cutaway, Wisconsin, killed Iraq. Proud to serve his country, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Loved football wrestling, running tracks.

Leaves behind grieving parents who serve the Air Force and best friends, his younger brothers, Dylan and Dakota.

Steven Christofferson, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. As much as the world pauses tonight for (INAUDIBLE), we wish you the blessings on this special evening.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/08/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

State Will Seek Homicide Charges Against Missing Toddler`s Mother

Aired October 9, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The state set to seek homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony, the case heading to a secret grand jury in days. Only question, will the charge be manslaughter or murder? Casey Anthony refusing to go before that grand jury, but tomorrow morning, she appears personally before a judge to plead her case to be released from house arrest, her defense even mocking the grand jury system. Grandparents Cindy and George and brother Lee likely witnesses against their own daughter and sister.

And we learn DNA will play a major role in their testimony. Also set to testify, investigators, friends, the live-in. We learn while the grandparents consent, investigators are forced to seek a search warrant for DNA for mom Casey`s brother, Lee.

And tonight, has motive for murder been revealed? Even without a body, investigators confident they have the evidence for a conviction, the state presenting hair, fluid, cadaver dog and chloroform evidence to the grand jury all connected to mom Casey`s car trunk. And tonight, Texas Equusearch on the ground again in Orlando to resume the search for the 3- year-old. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate to break it to you, Casey Anthony, your time may be up. Local media reports an Orlando grand jury meets next week, and prosecutors are pushing for homicide charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Preparing for the worst, hoping for the best. That`s what defense attorney Jose Baez told the "Today" show. But Baez did not say whether he expects Casey Anthony to be indicted on homicide charges in the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony waited a month before contacting authorities about her disappearance. Newly-released surveillance video isn`t helping Anthony. She can be seen shopping for lingerie and beer just weeks after her little girl disappeared. Investigators believe the little girl, Caylee, is dead. While her body hasn`t been found, lab tests turned up evidence of human decomposition in the trunk of her mother`s car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See, I know and you know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Not everything I told you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you`ve told me, including where Caylee is right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do. And you...

CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me -- let me...

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baez says it would be pointless for Anthony to testify at a grand jury, saying it`s her right not to testify and in a proceeding where it`s, quote, "a one-side affair." He says police gave up looking for Caylee a long time ago and blames the media for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you`ve told me so far has been a lie. I`ve gone to every address that you`ve told me. I`ve talked to every name -- I`ve talked to every person that you`ve told me to talk to, or tried to. I found out all these names that you`ve given me are people that either never were here or have been fired here for a long time ago, OK? SO where we are right now is in a position that doesn`t look very good for you.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Florida investigators believe they can prove to a grand jury Casey Anthony killed her 3-year-old daughter Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They plan on piecing together inconsistencies from interviews she gave police, as well as presenting evidence from Anthony`s car. And they also plan on showing Anthony had been doing computer searches on chloroform. Investigators are hoping without a body, crime scene, confession or witness that the evidence they do have will be enough for a homicide charge. A grand jury meets next Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who broke the news that this case is headed to a secret grand jury, likely on Tuesday. Jessica, what more can you tell us?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, we do know that that is going happen on Tuesday. This case is going to go to a grand jury. They will hear it. It`ll be the last case that this grand jury hears before they dissolve.

I know that family is going to be subpoenaed. They will testify. We`re talking about George and Cindy Anthony, Casey`s parents, being called to testify in front of that grand jury. And the more and more I talk about it with people I know who are very close to this case, it`s looking more and more like they are going go for a murder case here instead of a manslaughter case. The idea being, why not go for all of it and then get manslaughter or something lesser later.

But you know, I think that people really need to know that this investigation -- they have hair samples, air samples. They have cadaver dogs alerting to the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car that there was a decomposing body there. And you know, they have a lot more evidence that we don`t know about, particularly involving motive here.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Significant, in the Florida jurisdiction, only certain and limited cases go to a grand jury. Explain.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, what we know is that it`s only capital cases that go to the grand juries here in the state of Florida. That`s been the way it has proceeded for the past many years. And you know, any time -- anyplace from 2 to 20 or even more witnesses can be called in front of a grand jury. Now, right now on the list, there`s about 35 law enforcement officers ready to testify against Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Mark Williams, have you seen the list?

WILLIAMS: Not yet, but...

GRACE: Then how do you know there`s 35 people set to testify?

WILLIAMS: This is -- this is what I`m receiving off the street from a lot of my sources that I`ve contacted and talked to over the last day or so. And of course, as Jessica reported, George and Cindy Anthony are supposed to be there. Lee Anthony obviously will be called, as well. And they`ve also taken those DNA swabs both from George and Cindy, but they needed a search warrant to get a DNA swab from brother Lee, who didn`t want to give up his DNA initially.

GRACE: Standing outside the Anthony home, joining us from Orlando, our producer, Natisha Lance. Is it true, Natisha, have you been able to confirm, that Lee Anthony refused a polygraph?

OK. When we get Natisha back, we`ll be straight back with her.

What about it, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, from what we understand -- and this is from Leonard Padilla, who was -- who came to Orlando a couple of weeks ago. He`s the bounty hunter from Sacramento, California, who first bailed Casey Anthony out of jail. They were all sitting in the motor home, and Lee went inside the house. They were given the opportunity to do a lie detector test, a polygraph test, to clear everybody, the Anthonys plus Lee. And Lee went in there and told his parents not to do it, and he didn`t do it. So they couldn`t clear him.

GRACE: So I guess that is a no. He has -- he`s not taken a polygraph.

WILLIAMS: No.

GRACE: He has refused the polygraph.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

GRACE: You know what`s significant? Let`s unleash the lawyers. Everyone, we`re taking your calls live. Joining us tonight, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta Eleanor Dixon, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Peter Odom out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and trial lawyer Paul Batista (ph) and author of "Death`s Witness" joining us from New York.

Eleanor, explain why it is so significant that in the Florida jurisdiction, this case is going a grand jury. It tells me what charge they are seeking.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Exactly. And a capital charge would be one in which the state could seek the death penalty, such as murder, armed robbery in some situations, rape. Those type of cases are capital cases.

GRACE: Now, in the jurisdiction of Florida, apparently, indictments can be handed down, charges can be handed down by what is called an "information," which means the prosecutor him or herself simply writes out the charges and that goes to a jury.

Peter Odom, for murder, murder one in Florida, you have to go to a grand jury. That tells me that`s a charge they`re going seek against Casey Anthony.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And that tells us that the prosecutors must have something that we don`t know about yet because we don`t know anything about a body. We don`t know anything about a cause and manner of death. We don`t know anything about a crime scene. We don`t know anything about admissions of guilt or a weapon. Unless they have...

GRACE: Well, you know...

ODOM: ... those elements, they`re going to have a hard time.

GRACE: ... before you became a defense attorney, it`s my understanding, Peter Odom, that you were a veteran prosecutor. Have you never heard of prosecuting a case without a body? You want me to give a gold star, an A-plus to a killer that manages to conceal the body? They should just walk scot-free?

ODOM: You can get a prosecution without a body. Sometimes you can get a prosecution without a cause and manner of death. Sometimes you can get a prosecution without a crime scene. But without all these elements -- with all of these elements missing, Nancy, they have a very tough row to hoe, unless there`s something we just don`t know about.

GRACE: Well, hold on just a moment. To Leonard Padilla joining us out of Sacramento, California, the bounty hunter who first posted a half a million dollar bail on Anthony before coming off that bond. There`s quite a significant amount of circumstantial evidence such as what, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, you`ve got the air samples in the trunk of the car. You`ve got Caylee`s DNA. Don`t be confused because people say, Well, you know, they`ve just got hair strands, but they got hair strands with the death band on it. They`ve got the DNA of Caylee in the trunk of that car.

And they`ve also got even statements by Casey herself stating about the odor in the car, except that she wants to blame it on squirrels. They`ve also got the pings which show exactly where she was from the 16th through the 30th. And they will find the body before they go to trial on the case itself. Maybe not before the grand jury, but before they go to the trial, they`ll find the body.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what in your mind is the strongest evidence? Tonight, the defense team is pooh-poohing any evidence by the state. What do you think?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, I think the whole timeline that they have right now -- and Leonard has helped to fill that in as we go along. I think that, along with all the evidence they have that was in the trunk, and the chloroform -- and there`s a lot that they`re not telling us. I guarantee you, Nancy, as a former investigator, there is evidence they are not showing us right now, and that is going come into play in the grand jury, and that is what`s going on nail her to the cross.

GRACE: Just hours ago, the defense team publicly mocks the grand jury system, saying they don`t believe in it. Well, surprise! It`s been around since the 12th century. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think it`s in her advantage to testify in a proceeding where it`s a one-sided affair, where only the prosecutor`s allowed, it`s a secret closed-door session where they present one side of the story. And it`s not something that I will expose my client or any other client that I have in the future to, to testify to, because I don`t believe in the grand jury proceeding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is a tot mom`s defense the "Today" show just hours ago. And of course, although she`s not appearing before the grand jury, Casey Anthony will appear tomorrow morning to beg a judge to let her off house arrest. You are seeing shots of her on a shopping spree after her daughter goes missing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tim Miller is going go ahead and review that search area where we were last time, look at the ground conditions, see if the water has receded and if the vegetation is going to allow us to get in and search.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the 27th, after she goes back to Amscot and picks up her car, goes to the house, comes to this area, immediately thereafter, she calls Amy and she says, I got rid of the smell in the car, I scraped off the squirrels. You go to the transcripts and you`ll read that, and it`s minutes after she leaves that area and goes back up north to Amscot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us tonight, the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller, Equusearch back in Florida, set to resume the search for little Caylee. Tim, thank you for being with us. Tim, if the waters have subsided sufficiently, where are you going to search first and why?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, Nancy, at very best, we completed maybe 50 percent of what we set out to do before. And I`m the one that actually called that search. I was just really worried that...

GRACE: Where are you going search first and why?

MILLER: We`re going to be in the areas where there were cell phone activities, and that`s not a secret to anybody, Nancy.

GRACE: So around the Orlando International Airport or somewhere else?

MILLER: Around the airport. And there`s three cell towers that we`ve got a tremendous amount of interest in, so this is where we`re going to be.

GRACE: Tim, what resources do you plan to use, horses, by foot? What are you going do?

MILLER: You know, Nancy, the last day on the search, we had 1,186 volunteers out there, plus all the resources in the world, but conditions weren`t right. I predict there will be over 2,000 searchers. Nobody`s lost interest in this. In fact, people are more focused now. They want little Caylee found. There`s not one chance in this world Caylee`s alive. We`ll bring in every resource that we need...

GRACE: Tim...

MILLER: Caylee...

GRACE: Tim...

MILLER: ... will be found, honey.

GRACE: Tim, the pressure is on you. You know that because you`re the only one stepping up at this point, rounding up volunteers. Tim Miller is not only the head of Equusearch, he is also a crime victim. His daughter was murdered and her body discarded many, many years ago. And you know, Tim, that a case with a body is going to be much stronger than a case without a body.

MILLER: Nancy, you know what? Today in Houston, Texas -- a little over a year ago, we did a search for Tanisha Stewart (ph). We did not find that body. Today, Timothy Shepherd (ph) was convicted of murder. Yes, we want that body, but if that body`s not found, I trust this Orange County sheriff`s department. They are not going in front of the grand jury to put on a show, I will guarantee you that.

GRACE: I think you`re right, Tim Miller. I want to go -- oh, and while I`ve got Tim Miller -- Tim Miller rounds up volunteers. He works for free. Any donation or volunteer to help find this 3-year-old girl or her remains is needed so desperately. You can see the Web site, TXEQ.org, to find out more. This could make or break the state`s case.

Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, he`s going to where the pings were around the cell tower. What were the significant dates? And what do you make of it?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you`ve got a number of significant dates. I mean, the whole timeline, you know, that we`ve talked about -- besides Tim -- and my hat`s off to Tim, by the way. I wish I`d him on a number of cases I`ve worked. But I can tell you, along with Tim, the custodian of records of AT&T is going to come in to that grand jury, and they`re going lay out the whole timeline of where -- the who, what, when, where, why and how of where she was from the time she said that Caylee went missing on June 9 all of the way to the time that she was arrested on July 16.

GRACE: Let`s go over those dates and times. Mark Williams with WNDB, Texas Equusearch is going back to search for little Caylee or her remains. They are going near the Orlando International Airport. It`s starting now. This could make or break the state`s case. Tell me about the cell phone activity by Casey Anthony near the airport. When was it?

WILLIAMS: It was on the day of June 16 and 17. She made a flurry of phone calls to both her mother, Cindy Anthony, and to her father, George Anthony. They did not pick up the phone. She also called her boyfriend at the time, Tony Rosaro -- Lazzaro (ph). And there was just kind of a dead end. And those flurry of phone calls, that`s where investigators believe that little Casey -- or little Caylee was killed just due to the fact that you had the phone calls. And the last time George Anthony saw his granddaughter alive was, like, on that Monday afternoon, the -- around noontime Monday on the 16th.

GRACE: Well, you know, Tim, I want to ask you another issue about motive. The state doesn`t have to prove motive, isn`t that correct, Paul Batista?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s absolutely correct, Nancy. But they have to prove the case with more than fumes in a trunk and pings from a cell phone.

GRACE: Well put. But I take it the answer to my question is no, the state doesn`t have to prove motive.

But back to you, Mark Williams. A new motive allegedly has been revealed regarding Puerto Rico. And a lot of this is coming from mom Casey Anthony`s own text messages. Explain.

WILLIAMS: Well, those text messages started in early May. They were -- she and her friends were planning to go to Puerto Rico on a vacation early in July, around July 4 or so, and there was a flurry of text messages there. She talked about she needing emergency money. And she says, I can blow through that money real quick. So she was -- she was not a thrifty person and...

GRACE: Here you see her on text messages planning the Puerto Rican vacation.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: Keep going, Mark.

WILLIAMS: Well, the deal is she was planning it, along with Amy Huizenga and a couple of other folks, her circle of friends. But you know, here`s the thing. They went to Puerto Rico. She never went to Puerto Rico. And so there`s also been a published report that says since she didn`t go to Puerto Rico, she was hamstrung by little Caylee, and that`s when the dirty deed happened.

GRACE: And what`s so interesting -- to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG -- is while her friends go on to Puerto Rico, she continues texting them. This is after the time little Caylee goes missing.

D`ONOFRIO: That`s right. She is text messaging a lot of her friends when Caylee goes missing. But I can tell you those cell phone pings are really disturbing. If you look on that Monday, detectives -- I believe they believe that something happened to that child that Monday. She goes to a Blockbuster, then she goes and sleeps over at her boyfriend`s house that night. And they believe by the time she went to that Blockbuster that that child was likely dead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILLER: I held onto that little glimmer of hope that she was still alive out there, but I`ve lost all that hope. And you know what? We need to find her. And we`re not going to quit until Caylee`s found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony. It`s not so much what she bought that is at issue tonight, as this case apparently heads to a grand jury on homicide charges. It`s the timing. Timing is crucial, these purchases made in the days and weeks following the alleged kidnapping by a nanny of her little girl. A grand jury will be allowed to see this video to assess for themselves her demeanor.

Straight back out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Tell me again your assessment regarding where Equusearch is searching, the cell pings, and the theory that little Caylee was dead before mom Casey goes to Blockbuster.

D`ONOFRIO: Well, this is the idea of the cell phone pings. We have an investigative reporter here, Tony Pipitone. He`s been looking into all of the records, and he`s done some really interesting work. And what it shows is that on June 15 -- that`s when the grandparents last see Caylee -- June 16 is a Monday. And the idea is that something might have happened to the child that Monday.

And then by the time she goes to a Blockbuster in the evening at around 9:00 o`clock, I believe Tony said, and then after that, she goes to Tony Lazzaro`s house and sleeps over that night -- that by that time, the child -- something happened to the child that day because the next day, she makes this flurry of cell phone calls. And the day after that, she borrows that shovel. And it was likely that she was either picking up the child, possibly the dead body.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car or that she`s dead certainly is information we take very seriously.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. Their (INAUDIBLE) don`t mean anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have returns that indicate human decomposition was present and located in the defendant`s vehicle. We had higher hopes of finding her alive and that hope has somewhat diminished.

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: The person who is in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter..

C. ANTHONY: We continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: It is never too late to do a continuous search. I truly believe that Caylee is out there. I would love to believe that she`s still alive, but I truly from my heart don`t believe that.

C. ANTHONY: We need to start looking for a little girl that`s walking and breathing that someone actually has her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have scientific evidence back from the lab, the FBI, and we have evidence that we have not yet made public that leads our investigators to believe that Caylee is deceased.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: And today the defense team publicly announces it`s the media`s fault that mom Casey Anthony has not been searching for her daughter. She plans to go to a judge tomorrow morning asking to be relieved of house arrest.

We are taking your calls, but first, take a listen to what the defense had to say just this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: The reason for this motion is to allow her to contribute to the situation, and that includes her defense as well as the search for Caylee. So I don`t -- I don`t see -- you know, I know the media`s made quite a bit of this, but one should be able to communicate with their lawyer and if she`s accused of taking the police to a certain location I`d like to be able to go to that location with her to verify certain facts and certain -- certain things that surround the situation.

I don`t believe they`re trying this in the court of public opinion. I think it`s an obvious fact where they have systematically leaked one bit of bad information after another and all of them are just simply in the efforts to be able to try a case where they don`t have any evidence or a body so, therefore, they can already have tainted the jury pool which I think they`ve done a fair job in doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, correct me if I`m wrong, but that`s not the prosecutor on "The Today Show" this morning tainting the jury pool. That`s the defense attorney, Jose Baez, this morning on "Today."

To Eleanor Dixon, talking about tainting the jury pool, I haven`t seen the prosecutors comment. Why?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Because prosecutors cannot ethically talk about the investigation or those details of the case. The only thing they can ethically say is after an indictment is what the indictment is for.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: I don`t think it`s in her advantage to testify in a proceeding where it`s a one-sided affair where the only the prosecutor`s allowed. It`s a secret, closed door session where they present one side of the story and it`s not something that I will expose my client or any other client that I have in the future to testify to because I don`t believe in the grand jury proceeding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Don`t believe in the grand jury proceeding. That`s tot mom defense on NBC "Today Show."

To Peter Odom and Paul Batista -- Peter Odom, I am going to try to let him down easy. The grand jury system has been in effect since the 12th century.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It has. And, of course, the grand jury system, though, does not favor the defense. It`s a one-sided affair. Mr. Baez.

GRACE: Well, it`s a charging mechanism.

ODOM: Right.

GRACE: Why should it? Just like why should the state be part of the defense investigation? That`s improper. So why is he bellyaching about the grand jury system?

ODOM: Well, I really can`t speak for Mr. Baez. I disagree with him. I think the grand jury has its function, but, certainly, it is very one-sided and I would advise my client, exactly as he has, don`t testify in front of the grand jury, it`s a losing proposition.

GRACE: To Paul Batista -- Paul, the Florida grand jury only hears capital cases. That tells me the state is not going for a voluntary or involuntary manslaughter charge. They are going for murder one.

If you were the defense in this case what would you be doing right now?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, they certainly are going right for the throat. And I have to say I`d be doing exactly the same thing that Jose Baez is doing. The client doesn`t.

GRACE: You`d say I don`t believe in the grand jury system?

BATISTA: I certainly wouldn`t say that. The grand jury systems is.

GRACE: Well, then, you wouldn`t be doing exactly what he`s doing.

BATISTA: Not exactly the same thing, but in terms of what he`s doing, Nancy -- Casey has nothing to gain. She has rights and she has nothing to gain from appearing in front of the grand jury.

His description of what the grand jury does in terms of the one-sidedness, I`m sorry to say, Nancy, is entirely accurate. He`s taking the right course.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know why you`re all sorry to say it. The grand jury is a charging mechanism. There`s nothing wrong with it. That`s the way our constitution is set up.

The defense is the one that is protected by the constitution, not the prosecution. The state doesn`t have a bill of rights protecting it. Prosecutors don`t have that. The defendant does.

To Bethany Marshall, psycho analyst and author of "Dealbreakers." Bethany, I want you to take a look at this video of mom, Casey Anthony, on a shopping spree buying lingerie, nighties, bras, a case of beer, clothing sportswear, designer sunglasses, all during the time after her little girl goes missing.

Now this does not prove a murder, but what does it say to you, Dr. Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, it does speak to motive and what I think is that Casey was probably horribly resentful that Cindy and George were spending their excess resources towards little Caylee, horribly envious, and what do we do when we`re envious?

We want to destroy the object of our envy. That would be a motive for not handling the little girl over to the grandparents simply destroying her and not having her around.

Now this -- getting rid of the little girl initiates a crime spree. Amy Huizinga goes to Puerto Rico, right? Or on holiday. Casey wants to go, can`t go, keeps texting. What does she do? She takes Amy`s checkbook. She takes what`s not hers.

She`s a thief and the spending spree and the crime spree is a celebration of the fact that the little girl is out of the way. Now she can indulge in her own lifestyle and she can live without the little girl, she can do whatever she wants to do.

But it`s not just a homicide. It`s the -- or a possible homicide, it is the beginning of a crime spree.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner -- Dr. Bell, if chloroform were used on little Caylee, would there be evidence of that if her remains are discovered?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: There may well be. You know, it would require specialized testing, but they may be able to detect it if it`s in high enough concentrations.

GRACE: What kind of testing?

BELL: Well, likely because the body will be decomposed, they`ll have to use probably brain matter or muscle rather than blood.

GRACE: You know, it`s hard to reconcile what you`re saying with these shots of little Caylee.

Out to the lines, Gloria in Florida. Hi, Gloria.

GLORIA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. You`re the best. Thank you for doing what you do.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

GLORIA: Casey has a pattern of weaving a shred of truth into her lies, and I was wondering if Blanchard Park was searched where Casey said she last saw Caylee with so-called Zenaida and her sister in her car.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio, was Jay Blanchard Park searched?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: You know, Nancy, I don`t have an answer to that. I am sure that the investigators, though, knowing them, I`m sure they`ve been there. They follow up on every lead they possibly can. So I can`t imagine.

GRACE: OK.

D`ONOFRIO: . why they wouldn`t have been there.

GRACE: To Kelly in Arizona, hi, Kelly.

KELLY, ARIZONA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

KELLY: Well, first I want to say you`re a true hero and thank you for everything you do. And God bless you and your babies.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you very much.

KELLY: I just want to know, has the area already been searched where the lady saw someone matching Casey`s description coming out of the woods by the airport and if so, will it be searched again?

GRACE: Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, do we know about that area where a -- an eyewitness claims to have seen -- mom Casey emerging from the woods? It`s near the Orlando airport.

MILLER: I`m real familiar with that area and again, with the conditions as they were.

GRACE: No.

MILLER: . when. Caylee disappeared the answer is completely. Blanchard Park has not been completely -- none of these areas have been and we`re just praying that conditions are there so we can go out and complete this search and bring this little girl home where she belongs.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by at the Anthony home, it`s my understanding that George and Cindy Anthony and Lee Anthony set to appear before that grand jury to testify about what?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, George Anthony will be appearing about the smell in the car and if you recall there were the issue with the gas cans. George Anthony was trying to get the gas cans from the trunk of Casey`s car and she quickly went to the trunk of the car, was able to on close it before George Anthony could actually see into the trunk.

Lee Anthony, on the other hand, he -- it`s for what he hasn`t done. It`s because he has not given DNA evidence to officers without them asking for it. Also, he refused to take a polygraph test.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I said where`s Caylee? What`s going on? Oh she`s staying with Zany. And I said, we haven`t seen the girl in over a week, you know. How`s everything? We haven`t talked to her. It sure would be nice to hear her little voice. Dad, I don`t have time for it. I have 10 minutes, I have to get back to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: These checks came from her friend`s car, Amy Huizinga. Amy went on vacation to Puerto Rico, allowing Casey to use the car. And she allegedly took some checks. She`s passing this bad paper.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: If you look at her -- her best friend, Amy Huizinga. Now keep in mind, on July 15th, this is the day that Amy and her mom Cindy came over to her apartment where she was with Tony Lazzaro and confronted her.

That day in Amy Huizinga`s checking account the balance was $49.99. On her last statement, her best friend now on the 6/20, her balance was 2,125.47.

Great best friend.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to a special guest joining us, Jessica D`Onofrio from WKMG. Jessica, 754 pings on her cell phone have been picked up by authorities. What is significant about just 3 percent of them?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, the thing that is so interesting about all that work that was done by one of our investigative reporters here is that the child is last seen on June 15th and on June 16th, it looks by these phone calls by where they were hitting cell phone towers, these pings were hitting cell phone towers, and when these calls were made that on the 16th is the date that something specifically happened to this child.

Then by the end of the evening around 9:00 some time, she goes to Blockbuster and she goes and sleeps over at her boyfriend`s house. You never see this child again. The next day you`ve got a flurry of cell phone calls and the day after that, she borrows a shovel and goes in the backyard, backs her car up and, you know, the theory is that she takes the child out of the backyard, puts it in the car and leaves.

GRACE: 754 times, her cell phone communicated from a cell tower, bouncing off 20 different cell towers.

Now, Mike Brooks, 97 percent of those 754 calls were from the area of her home, her parents` home, Fusion Nightclub.

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: A friend`s house or boyfriend. The 3 percent that have captured the police attention are from where?

BROOKS: They`re from around that area we were talking about, Nancy. I mean we talked about this earlier. We had heard that there were a number of cell towers around her house between her house, between Tony Lazzaro`s house and this area around Orlando International Airport.

That is the area that they`ve been concentrating on.

GRACE: It is southwest of the family home.

BROOKS: Exactly.

GRACE: . at Lee Vista Boulevard and it is near where detectives are sending Equusearch volunteers. Then notably, the cell phone goes silent between 5:23 and 8:23 June 17, no text messages, no calls and no calls out.

And to you, Eleanor Dixon, this is a woman that lived on text messages. She`s up until 2:00, up at 5 a.m. texting various men, friends, you name it, and for those three hours, those hours in question, and at the location, near the airport, everything goes radio silent.

Behavioral evidence, Eleanor. What does it mean?

DIXON: Exactly, Nancy, it means she`s doing something and certainly, as a prosecutor in that case, I would argue that`s when she`s getting rid of the body in this case.

GRACE: And thank you to Joe in Florida who has called in, he served six months on a Dade County grand jury.

Eleanor, a grand jury, unlike a petite jury of 12, which hears your case ultimately, must only find a probable cause whether to indict, not that the case is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

DIXON: You`re exactly right, Nancy, and the grand jurors just don`t indict every case that comes down the pike. I`ve gotten plenty of no bills, in other words, we don`t go for it with the grand jury.

GRACE: Eleanor, I never got a no bill. When you said you got plenty of no bills, what do you mean by that?

DIXON: Well, I guess what I mean, Nancy, is not every one of my cases that I presented to the grand jury have gone forward. In other words.

GRACE: For an indictment.

DIXON: Right. For an indictment. In other words, grand jury is thoughtful, they said we don`t think there`s enough evidence and that`s it.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sandy in Florida. Hi, Sandy.

SANDY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

SANDY: When Casey left the house after the fight with her mom and took Caylee, where did she go that night?

GRACE: Interesting, Mark Williams, WMDB, where do you believe she went that evening?

WILLIAMS: Well, apparently, she went out on the road and more than likely stayed with one of her boyfriends that night. That`s the information that we`ve received and from that point on, who knows?

GRACE: To Vicki in Ohio, hi, Vicki.

VICKI, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear.

VICKI: Well, I just have a question. I was wondering if they never find Casey`s body -- or Caylee`s body, would Casey, A, be able to be indicted and B, would it be a situation like double jeopardy if they were to find her not guilty and then, Lord willing, found the little girl`s body?

GRACE: Vicki in Ohio, yes, she can be indicted without a body. It`s happened many, many times. In fact, we`ll put up a screen for you of high- profile cases that went forward and got convictions without a body.

Tim Miller from Equusearch just told you about one and what was the second part of your question, Vicki?

DIXON: Double jeopardy.

GRACE: Oh, yes. Double jeopardy. If she`s tried -- thanks, Eleanor. If she`s tried without a body, acquitted and then the body is discovered. No, she cannot be retried.

To Marie in New York, hi, Marie.

MARIE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

MARIE: I love watching your children. I think they`re great.

GRACE: Thank you.

MARIE: A question. Why don`t they bring in a bunch of psychics and also have they done all her boyfriend`s lie detecting for them to see if any of them were lying?

GRACE: To Mark Williams, psychics have been brought in, even search. What can you tell me about lie detector tests on boyfriends?

WILLIAMS: Well, lie detector tests on boyfriends, obviously, have been to her ex-beaus, so to speak, and basically they were given to them by the sheriff`s office just to clear up some -- any time line questions, to make sure they were telling the truth.

And from what we understand, everybody`s telling the truth because even though they can`t use these in a courtroom, they can certainly put a time line together to show where Casey was on a particular given day in a particular given hour, Nancy.

GRACE: Right. To Peter Odom and Paul Batista -- Peter Odom, once an indictment is handed down, the state may be forced forward with a speedy trial demand. Please explain.

ODOM: Well, once an indictment is handed down, the clock begins ticking and it varies from state to state but they could be forced to trial within a very short period of time.

GRACE: Forced by who, Paul Batista?

BATISTA: Forced by the defendant, Nancy. She`s entitled to a fair and speedy trial and it may well be that she`ll ask for it here.

GRACE: And Paul and Peter, I could see the defense doing this because it would allow the state no more time to prepare their case. Right, Eleanor?

DIXON: That would be right but I bet the state has more they haven`t told the public about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: There`s obviously one glowing factor and that is that there is zero evidence in these document that Casey harmed Caylee in any way or -- or even remotely supports that accusation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Paul Batista, Peter Odom, Eleanor Dixon, and psychoanalyst, Bethany Marshall.

First to you, Bethany, does he have on blinders? Because we`ve got a cadaver dog hitting -- that only hits on human remains, hair from a dead person in the car trunk. The mom lying through her teeth about seemingly innocuous things revolving around her daughter.

A host, an array of evidence.

MARSHALL: Well, at first I thought he drank the Casey Anthony Kool-Aid but actually it`s the best thing he can do is discredit the grand jury. He`s really grasping for straws at this point.

GRACE: Eleanor, shouldn`t he just remain silent? Shouldn`t he take the fifth, as well?

DIXON: Well, he probably should, Nancy, but again, he`s tainting the potential jury pool as well and it`s just typical defense blah blah blah.

GRACE: And we can expect the same at trial, right, Peter?

ODOM: Well, his best defense here, Nancy, is the most common defense, the most reliable defense, reasonable doubt. You probably should just stay silent.

GRACE: Paul?

BATISTA: Well, he`s got a right to defend his client, Nancy, and that`s precisely what the man is doing. He`s got a right to articulate these things.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, what do you expect to happen next week?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I believe there`s going to be an indictment come down for murder and I don`t -- I don`t see Jose Baez changing his tactics. If he doesn`t do something, if Casey doesn`t come up with a body between now and then, there`s definitely going to be an indictment. And shortly thereafter Tim is going to find the body.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Navy Airman Apprentice Adrian Campos, 22, El Paso, Texas. Remembered as the life of the party. Devoted to others. Loved traveling, adventure. Dreamed of starting his own car repair shop.

Leaves behind family grieving, brother Carlos, sister Vanessa, widow Sylvia, baby girl Gabby.

Adrian Campos, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. As much as the world pauses tonight for Yom Kippur, we wish you blessings on this special evening.

I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp -- sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/09/ng.01.html

October 10, 2008:

Huddled at bench
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:38:09 PM
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All the attorneys are huddled at the bench. It's unclear what they are talking about. The courtroom remains quiet. It's filled with mostly media. Those with computers are sitting in the balcony.

The judge just announced, "That's a wrap."

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Zenaida factor
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:33:42 PM
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Defense - Wants all the info about Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez

State - Drane-Burdick says he wants the state to do his investigation him. She suggest he depose the investigators.

Defense - A big part of the case is the lack of investigation into finding Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. He wants to know who the cops talked to and what type of investigation they did.

Judge - The state must turn over what prosecutors have but Baez may need to do his own leg work to see if anything else exists. The state appears to have met its obligation.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Judge did not rule on DNA issue
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:25:58 PM
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Defense - Wants samples preserved so defense can do its own DNA testing. If there isn't enough to preserve, the defense's expert should be allowed to be present for the testing.

Judge -- He will take this issue under advisement.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants DNA samples preserved
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:21:01 PM
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Defense is questioning an expert via a phone. It's unclear what he's an expert in because the state wanted to skip over listing his credentials. The prosecutor has another trial to attend at 12:30 p.m.

The doctor is worried the DNA samples will be destroyed when the state is testing and there will be nothing left for a defense expert to inspect.

State questions the expert. Ashton wants to know if he's ever gone to a site to watch the testing.

The expert replies that it wasn't needed after he inspected the procedures on how samples were tested. He also knew the lab.

Defense - Asked the expert if he is familiar with Florida crime labs in Orlando. The expert replied that he is not.

State - Asked if the issue is more about labs he is not familiar with the labs. The experts said that is correct.

Judge - Strickland said he's trying to figure out what exactly the state wants.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Calling a witness on the phone
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:04:55 PM
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Everyone is huddled around a speaker phone because the defense is calling a witness on the phone.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Polygraph issue
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:02:14 PM
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State -- Drane-Burdick says polygraphs are not allowed in court so it's not discoverable. But the state will disclose the statements.

Defense - It would be good to get statements but want more info on who is giving the polygraph.

Judge -- The state must turn over any statements prosecutors have from people who gave polygraphs -- including FDLE and Orange County Sheriff's Office. The motion is granted.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants flight manifest
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:54:08 AM
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Judge - The state has turned over what it has about the manifest. It's a moot point.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants DCF records
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:52:01 AM
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Judge decides to come back at another time to the defense's request to DCF records. He wants to hear from DCF.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants tip information
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:48:44 AM
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Drane-Burdick - She says the state can turn over tips that have already been investigated. However, tips that may be part of the investigation should not be turned over because the defense may interfere.

Judge - He grants the motion but adds that any investigation into tips must be completed.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense gets access to more evidence
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:41:59 AM
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Defense wants access to reports, logs and other documents for evidence dealing with chloroform, DNA, cadaver dogs and other evidence.

Ashton - None of these things are not going to be used in neglect case. The request for information about cadaver dogs can be received through public records request from the sheriff's office. That has not been done.

Judge -- He denies paragraph 5 - request about cadaver dogs.

But the inspections dealing with air samples analyzed at the body farm may be limited to reports or statements of experts regarding that.

Ashton says there are reports from the body farm.

Judge grants the motion. The state must present reports, logs and statements dealing with DNA, air samples, hair strands and chloroform found in trunk within the next 10 days.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony More talk about access to car
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:33:22 AM
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Ashton - The motion is filed not because of the neglect case but charges that may come in the future. Legally, he doesn't have a right to inspect the car at this time. In the future, he might.

But judge grants the defense motion. The state must coordinate with defense to figure out a time to inspect the car.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Next motion - access to the car
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:28:11 AM
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This is one about Baez's request to inspect evidence, such as the car. He wants an expert to have access to Casey's car.

Jeff Ashton - assistant state attorney - replies that the car is not listed a piece of evidence.

The judge asked if the state plans to use the air samples - the ones that detected a decomposing body in the vehicle. Prosecutor said not in the neglect case.

Baez disagreed, pointing out Ashton was not present for the three-hour bond hearing. He says defense should be allowed to inspect the car. The state may want to restrict Casey's search for the truth.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony State and county opposes request
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:17:11 AM
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The county opposes the motion. It's too vague. It's basically a request to be removed from home confinement, says county assistant attorney Tamara Gappen.

Prosecutor says it appears that Baez is asking the court to trust him and the bondsman that she will abide by the home confinement. Drane-Burdick points out that Casey hasn't even asked to go anywhere other than her attorney's office. He appears he wants to conduct this in secret and the state opposes it.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Points of interest?
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:16:18 AM
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Baez points out that the Casey case is an unusual case. Hughes agreed.

Baez then tells the judge that this case involves the case of a missing child. He would like a few hours to travel with her to certain places - they could range from places she has been in the last few months and to places she allegedly took cops. He wants to go to other places of interest that are relevant to the case.

The issue may be whether she is a flight risk, Baez says. But he is requesting that she goes with Baez - an officer of the court - and be followed by the bondsman. He said this is the most stringent and narrow request that he has asked for since she was placed on home confinement. This would allow her to contribute to her defense.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Prosecutor questions Hughes
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:10:18 AM
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Prosecutor Linda Drane-Burdick questions Hughes about allowing Casey to see her attorney for six hours a day. Hughes said she has never had someone ask that but she had people ask to see attorneys at restaurants and places like that.

The prosecutor asks Hughes that if Casey wanted travel to Amscot to help in her case would she be allowed? Hughes says she would want more details as to why, but she can request that.

And Casey can ask the court for permission if Hughes refused to allow her to go somewhere, Drane-Burdick asked. Hughes replied that Casey could do that.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Hughes says she needs to know Casey's whereabouts at all times
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:02:10 AM
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Baez asked Hughes if Casey has been drug tested. She has, and the results have come back negative.

County assistant attorney is questioning Hughes. Casey has asked for an extension in her time allowed away from home. She has called and requested more time the last two days, Hughes said.

Hughes said she needs to know where Casey is throughout the day. She must know specific location and times so she can verify Casey's location. The close monitoring is to make it hard for a defendant to flee the area or take part in criminal activity.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Home confinement officer for Casey Anthony takes the stand
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 11:00:29 AM
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The Orange County Jail home confinement officer Meg Hughes said Casey Anthony has always followed the rules.

Drug tests on Anthony have not tested positive for drugs, Hughes told Baez.

Anthony has started to ask for extension of time out of her home, Hughes told prosecutors. Her scheduled times usually include attorney visits in the morning as well as visits to see Hughes.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Home confinement officer testifies
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 10:56:43 AM
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Meg Hughes - Casey's home confinement officer - is testifying. Baez is questioning her about if she is allowed errand time. People on home confinement are allowed errand time, Hughes says.

People on home confinement are given a risk score based on their charge and criminal history. That dictates what defendants are allowed to do. Hughes has seen Casey about five times so far.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Bondsman testifies
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 10:53:08 AM
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A bail bondsman who posted Casey's bond is testifying that he is not opposed to her being allowed to travel freely on home confinement. He would go with her. He doesn't know what the "key points of interest" are that mentioned on the motion.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Bondsman says Casey Anthony is not a flight risk
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:52:48 AM
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A bondsman with MacDonald Bail Bonds, the company that bailed Casey Anthony out of Orange County Jail, speaks about the case.

"I don't believe she's a flight risk," bondsman Robert Haney told Baez. "Everyone knows her face."

Haney said Anthony's travel to look for her daughter will be local and not involve any flights.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Sentinel attorney speaks about keeping Casey Anthony's schedule public
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:47:01 AM
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There should not be a whole lot of travel because she is on home confinement, a county official said who is in charge of the home confinement order.

Attorney Rachel Fugate of the Orlando Sentinel said docs are public records and don't think defense has given enough evidence to seal records.

"Not effective in protecting her safety," Fugate said of keeping records private.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Casey Anthony's attorney speaks about safety issues
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:43:44 AM
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"Biggest issue we have with this is security," Anthony's attorney, Jose Baez, said about not disclosing his client's movements made public on her home confinement schedule.

"Her comings and goings are made public...and could create an imminent security problem," Baez said.

Prosecutors said Baez needs to come up with an exception to the public records law.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Casey Anthony is a no show - so far
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:20:33 AM
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Casey Anthony's attorney, Jose Baez, arrived without his client.

Sheriff's officials, FBI agents and the prosecutors have entered the courtroom, while more than 20 reporters, photographers and other media representatives wait outside the locked doors.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Sheriff's officials make appearance at State Attorney's Office this morning
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:09:18 AM
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Orange County Sheriff's Office officials, including Sgt. John Allen, the lead investigator in the case of missing 3-year-old Caylee Marie Anthony; and spokesmen Capt. Angelo Nieves and Deputy Carlos Padilla, arrived this morning at the Orange Osceola State Attorney's Office.

The three officials have been working the case since Casey Anthony reported her daughter missing.

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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Casey Anthony in court today
posted by Roger Simmons on Oct 10, 2008 10:02:56 AM
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Casey Anthony is back in court today as a judge hears nearly a dozen legal requests in the case of the mother and her missing daugther, Caylee.

We will be live blogging the hearing (which should start around 10:30 a.m.) here on the Orlando Crime Blog. We will also have a live video stream, if you would like to watch the hearing: Click here for the video stream.

And if you want to get caught up on the case, click here for our gallery of videos, photos, documents and a timeline about the case. There is a lot of ground to cover: Caylee was first reported missing on July 15.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/caylee_anthony/index.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Wins One in Court

Aired October 10, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 16 long weeks.
Tonight, bombshell. The latest shocker, Casey`s defense team racks up big victories in court, and I mean big victories, over the furious objections of prosecutors. In the last hours, a judge grants of string of motions on behalf of Casey Anthony`s defense. But mom Casey is a no-show. That`s right, she does not show up in court. As of tonight, the state has 10 days to hand over forensic evidence, including hair, chloroform and air samples all connected to Casey Anthony`s car trunk. The defense also gets access to mom Casey`s car, the computer searches, tips on Caylee, and even polygraphs.

The judge does say no to cadaver dog evidence, but three -- count them, three -- crucial motions remain on the table, including a very controversial request. Will the judge actually allow mom Casey to go on secret searches for her little girl? Meantime, we await a possible secret grand jury indictment of murder or manslaughter against Casey Anthony in just days. But tonight, the biggest question remains, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A judge has granted several motions requested by Casey Anthony`s attorney. Her defense was granted access to forensic tests, DNA samples and hair strands within 10 days. But a special request to let Anthony travel in secrecy to search for her missing daughter has been tabled until at least Monday. In another major development in this case, her father, George, will testify against her during a grand jury hearing next week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reportedly, he`s going to talk about the confrontation he had with Casey when she didn`t want him to go inside her trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Casey, I`ve got an extra set of keys, I`ll go in the truck and get it. So her and I got in a little verbal...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go in the...

GEORGE ANTHONY: She don`t want me going in the trunk of the car. So as I`m getting ready to go out through our inner garage door and open up the big garage door, she just blows right past me. Dad, I`ll get your -- thing. She said something very crude to me that I don`t appreciate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: So as I`m walking out of the garage with her, I`m walking at a pretty decent pace and she`s almost running out to her car. She said, Dad, I`ll get it. I know where it`s at. I said, Casey, I`m capable of reaching inside your trunk of your car, unbolting that thing -- because I bolt stuff down. I crank it down. And she says, Dad, I`ll get it. As I`m walking, I just get past where the passenger rear taillight is for her car, she throws it open and turns and says, Here`s your f-ing cans.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jose Baez, Casey`s attorney, asking for more freedom for Casey so she can go out and look for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants her home confinement to be modified so that she can look at these -- what he calls key areas of interest in Caylee`s disappearance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the baby-sitter that lives in this apartment, OK, that`s been vacant...

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I dropped her off at that apartment, at those stairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had told us the truth, we wouldn`t be here at Universal Studios at a place that you`ve been fired since 2006, with you trying to explain to us, you know, you got an office and all that stuff.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they`re charging her and alleging that she lied and took them to this location, I should be able -- it`s our position that we should be able to take her there and as, OK, where exactly did you point? Where exactly did you take them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What he wants to do is to conduct this in secret. And we are opposed to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your client is, as you stated, presumed innocent. Nobody would doubt that. I guess a skeptic sitting up here might think that if, in fact, your client had done this, then she might have access to a point of interest nobody else knows about and might be able to do something with potential evidence or something like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will have no part in destruction of evidence. I will not partake in that and I will not allow my client to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Huge developments inside and outside court today. For the very latest on today`s courtroom bombshells, let`s go straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter for CNN affiliate WKMG. Jessica, what is the very latest?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Jane, the judge considered 11 motions today. He tabled three of them to consider them. We might hear something probably, possibly on Monday.

Now, these were really big motions for the defense. They want to preserve forensic evidence. They don`t want the state to test it anymore so that it gets degraded. They want to be able to test it themselves.

Also, the judge took under advisement the motion to seal Casey`s home confinement schedule. Jose Baez is saying that there`s a security risk there, and he doesn`t want protesters or media following her and that this could be a matter of her safety.

Also, the judge took under advisement the motion to travel to key points of interest. Casey wants to be able to go to key points of interest in the case, show her defense attorney where she may have pointed to to detectives, to help in her own defense here.

But it was a really big day for Casey Anthony`s defense team today because the judge granted eight different big motions, as well. Now Jose Baez and his defense team will be able to test forensic evidence. They`ll have access to the state`s results that they`ve gotten back from air samples from the University of Tennessee body farm. They`ll also get flight manifests from the time when a woman said she saw Caylee at OIA, at Orlando International Airport, and that there was a possible Caylee sighting, and that she is actually alive.

Also, he`ll get to inspect digital evidence, anything on a hard drive that was confiscated from the Anthony home. He`ll also get access to tips, tips that have come into the Orange County sheriff`s office pointing to the idea that Caylee may be alive somewhere. So he`s also -- and this is a big thing, too. He`s also going to be able to review polygraph tests that detectives have done thus far. So he`s going to have a lot of access to a lot of new information to help defend Casey Anthony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jessica D`Onofrio, that is such a shocker -- Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, all for the defense. And who`s not there to take it all in, the one person who is at the center of this case, Casey Anthony. She was a no-show in court.

Let`s go straight out to Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace producer, who was in court today. Describe the mood. I understand it was a packed courtroom. There was a lot of tension, a lot of expectation to see Casey Anthony walk in, and then voila, even though she got approval, she didn`t show up. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the defense is saying that Casey Anthony actually did not need to be in court today. And actually, I spoke to a spokesperson for the Baez lawfirm who said that they never intended for Casey to attend today`s hearing. Jose Baez gave some remarks afterwards, and he said that Casey has full faith in him, as well as the defense team, and that there was no reason for her to be there, but she was elated with the outcome of what happened today in court (INAUDIBLE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Natisha, they`re saying that after the fact, but she went and asked her case supervisor, Can I have permission to go to court? So why would she ask for permission and then they turn around and say, Well, no, she didn`t have to be there and she didn`t really plan on being there?

LANCE: Well, that`s a big mystery, Jane, that no one seems to be answering at this point. But one of the things that I think we could probably safely assume is that there`s a security risk, which Jose Baez raised today with one of his motions, that they are afraid for Casey`s safety and afraid that somebody could possibly do something to her because there have been protesters. Some of those protesters have become violent in the past, and that could have been a pretty bad spectacle, if there were some of those protesters out at the courthouse today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, originally helped her spring from jail and has become skeptical since, what do you make of it? You`ve been analyzing Casey now. Why would she ask her supervisor to go and have permission to go to court, and this is a huge day, she won a string of victories in court, but then she says, I`m not going?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, let me see if I can put this in perspective. What the eight victories that she got are called Pyrrhic victories, OK? What she did was get a 10-day limit, which -- when the grand jury comes in with the indictment, and I`m sure they will on Tuesday or Wednesday, it`s still within the 10 days that they had to release that information under discovery rules, anyhow.

As far as the safety issue, I can tell you this. I raised that the day after the results from Tennessee came in and the DNA from the FBI lab came in. I raised that as a strong issue with Jose Baez. And I says, We have a safety issue with your client. We have to do something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Did you buy the safety issue? Yes or no. That she (INAUDIBLE)

PADILLA: Yes, absolutely. It`s been a safety issue all along. And he didn`t take it serious then, and I don`t think...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Leonard, she is asking for permission to go and search for her daughter, quote, unquote. That`s one of the rulings that the judge did not finalize today. He didn`t say yes or no. But they filed a motion. If she`s so scared about her safety, why is it that she`s seeking now a motion after all this time, after she partied and went shopping during a time when she could have been searching for her daughter -- now they`re petitioning the court, Let`s go and let her search for her daughter.

PADILLA: That is typical Casey/Jose Baez stuff that has -- it`s meaningless. The minute she gets rearrested on the murder charge or the manslaughter charge, when it`s brought in by the indictment, she`ll have a no bail and she won`t be able to go anywhere anyhow. And the judge tabled that.

The judge was very astute in the way he granted certain motions and the way he tabled certain motions. The ones that he granted -- discovery is going to be available next Thursday or Friday anyhow, still within the 10 days. He was very astute in what he did.

But that is typical Casey, typical Jose Baez. But the thing about it is, there is a safety issue, and I wouldn`t even want her out there searching, if I was in charge of her. That is just -- I don`t know what that`s about.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You talk about the safety issue, you`re talking about threats? Is that what you`re saying?

PADILLA: Absolutely. Yes, you`ve got massive amounts of people in Florida that would harm her, if they could get a chance. You`ve got the protesters out in front of the house that rally every now and then. That`s the kind of stuff you don`t want her exposed to, whether it`s in secret or in private. I mean, any way, shape or form, you don`t want her out there. I don`t know what they`re doing that for.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey Police Department. She doesn`t show up in court, and now we`re hearing it could be safety reasons. But in court today, her lawyer says, I want you, Judge, to let her leave her home confinement so she can search for her child, even though she didn`t search for her child, according to reports that we`ve received, during the crucial days and weeks when she originally went missing. What do you make of it?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Listen, I don`t buy the safety issue. It sounds like, for goodness sakes, you`ve got to declare martial law in the state of Florida to protect this person. I deal with cases every day, high-profile cases, and this is one of the rarest things I`ve ever heard, where a defense attorney is bringing up a safety issue.

The fact of the matter is that this individual appears to have manipulated the process and did everything she could to get off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: DNA by itself is -- when they test it, they destroy it, OK? That`s the point of our motion. What we`re asking is this. If there is DNA that they don`t have enough to give to the defense, that they should allow us the opportunity to have our experts present while they test it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we can actually take a look at these leads and follow up on them, follow up on the ones that we know law enforcement has not followed up on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focusing on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee, Gary?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee, Cindy, because we don`t know where Caylee is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Yes, yes, and yes again. That`s what the judge said repeatedly today to Casey Anthony`s lawyers, granting them most of what they asked for in terms of access to crucial evidence. Prosecutors objected furiously to no avail. That as the clock ticks down to a reported secret grand jury hearing on Tuesday that could result in murder or manslaughter charges being handed down against the missing tot`s mother. Is she prepared for the worst? That`s what her lawyer says he is trying to prepare her for.

Now, somebody who did show up in court today, our dear friend, Koby (ph), also known as Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, who is a forensic science out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a consultant to Casey Anthony`s defense team. Koby, hi.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY`S DEFENSE TEAM: Hi, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You actually testified over the phone. Tell us the significance of all the evidence the judge now says has to go to the defense. What -- what does it do for the defense?

KOBILINSKY: Well, we all know -- I`ve said all along this is a very challenging case for the defense. Obviously, whenever you have scientific analysis of physical evidence, it`s going to dramatically impact on jurors. So it`s important to me that whatever testing is done, whatever scientific testing of evidence is done really needs to be reliable and accurate.

And you know, one way to do that is to have redundancy in the testing. That is, to have independent testing by the defense. And this motion that I testified about involved the preservation of any forensic evidence. We`re talking about any kind of DNA evidence. The hair, for example, is one. And we`re concerned about quality and quantity.

And you know, I think the quality is less of an issue because it`s clear that, you know, crime labs have learned how to preserve evidence and not let it degrade. But if there is limited quantity, as there is in this case, we want to make sure that there`s a level playing field, that the results are accurate, and that the defense at least has a shot at doing an independent test.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Koby, why do I sense a "garbage in, garbage out" defense? It seems like that`s what always happens and is going to happen again. And we`ll have to see if I`m psychic or not.

Let`s bring in the lawyers, Joey Jackson and Midwin Charles, two noted defense attorneys. I want to ask you guys -- let`s start with Midwin. Was the judge right? I mean, yes, yes, yes, yes to access to forensic tests on air, hair and chloroform for the defense, yes to access to Casey`s vehicle, the computer, the cell phone, the information about somebody who thought they saw Caylee getting on a plane -- that turned out not to be true -- yes to polygraph, yes to any favorable information about Casey.

I mean, did they just hand over the case to the defense, Midwin?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. Look here, defense attorneys are entitled to this kind of information. It`s discovery. And they` entitled to exculpatory evidence, which is evidence that says -- points to the fact that perhaps someone else did it, or this person who is being charged with the crime is not the person who did it.

And it doesn`t mean that he`s handing the case over to the defense. What he`s doing is just insuring that they get a fair shake at the same evidence that the prosecutors have. Remember, this judge does not want to be reversed later on down the line, either.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joey Jackson, you know, the prosecution was saying, Hey, she is not currently charged with murder or manslaughter. We do not have an obligation to give her all this information that goes way beyond what she`s charged with now, which is child neglect and fraud charges, and hand over essentially what could be a murder case down the road.

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I understand that. But Midwin is absolutely right on point here. The reality is, Jane, is that an indictment is imminent. And what you have to do is you have to really, if you`re the judge, determine whether or not it makes sense to turn this information over now. The defense is entitled to examine the evidence, evaluate the evidence, and having done so, to put up the best defense they possibly can.

Lastly, Jane, on the issue of the forensic examination, there`s one of two ways the defense can attack this. One way, which I don`t think will work in this case, is to simply get up there and to try to destroy all the testing that their expert did. What the defense is doing in this case is asking for an independent examination, which I think will help greatly in the defense of Caylee. (SIC)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to find out how the defense could afford all this -- I mean, experts and consultants...

JACKSON: Pro bono!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... and all sorts of tests. I don`t know. It adds up. It adds up very quickly.

CHARLES: It does. It does add up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And perhaps we`ll find out how they`re bankrolling all this.

The phone lines lighting up like a Christmas tree. Eileen in New Jersey, your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi. It`s just one question. I`m wondering, can you overdose on chloroform?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s go to Koby, Lawrence Kobilinsky, the forensic scientist. Can you overdose on chloroform?

KOBILINSKY: Without a doubt. The chloroform at levels of about 10,000 parts per million is highly toxic. And in fact, the -- you know, it was normally used for anesthesia, but that`s got to be very carefully administered. And if you overdo it, it is fatal. And there`s no doubt about that. It`s a toxic chemical, and that`s why the public should not have access to it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Biggest mistake was not calling you guys right off the bat. I understand all of that. It`s the biggest slap in the face, and I did that to myself. But the worst is I`ve done this to my daughter by allowing her to still be with someone else.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: My mom flat out told me yesterday she will never be able to forgive me. And I even told her I`m never going to be able to forgive myself. Every day, I`ve been beating myself up about this, every single day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: Not knowing where to go, what to do, running in circles, literally, because that`s all I can do at this point.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Equusearch back in Orlando, desperately looking for little Caylee Anthony now that the storms there have subsided. We`re going to go straight out to Tim Miller, head of Equusearch. How many people do you have there, Tim? Where are they? What are they doing tonight?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, you know, Jane, it`s, you know, good to be back. But you know, it`s been kind of disappointing. It looks like we brought the rain back with us. It`s rained the last few days. Conditions aren`t where we need them to be just yet. But I haven`t really been out there to look. Today I`ve been in meetings the entire day, you know, a lot longer than I anticipated...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me jump in and ask you this question about the Orlando airport area. I remember flying in there years ago, and it struck me how wooded that area is. It`s like you`re driving out of the airport, miles and miles of just woods. It`s going to impossible, I would think, to search through that. Why not get cadaver dogs and just let them loose and see what they come up with?

MILLER: Well, don`t we wish it was that easy. None of us would be out here. You know, we`ve actually located human remains several times after cadaver dogs have cleared it, so we don`t use just any one resource. I think that`s why our success is where it is. We bring in every resource we can and re-search and re-search and re-search until we know an area is cleared. And I mean, there`s a lot of woods, but let`s face it, you know, nobody is going to carry anything out a quarter mile or half mile into a wooded area where it`s very, very hard to walk. You know, normally...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a good point. In other words -- yes?

MILLER: It`s -- it`s an area that somebody can drive out to, not be seen, possibly spend some time out there and go ahead and do a dump. And we`ve got to remember this is a very, very small child in a very, very big area. And again, I think there`s a lot of strength in numbers. And there`s a lot of resources we have. There`s a lot of people just sitting on the edge of their chair, waiting to get going back on the search.

But tomorrow, it`s not going to start. We`ve got to be a little bit better organized than we are tomorrow, so we`re not going to waste these resources. But this search is going to go on. And I still support the Anthonys and am hoping that Caylee is alive out there and -- but we`re going to do everything we can do in case she`s not to see if we can get her located.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: 9-1-1, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. Oh, my god, my daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t like the smell either.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What filled up the garage?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, it was -- it hits you like a wave. I mean it was -- it was -- whatever it was it was very potent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in the trunk of the car.

C. ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza, for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

I know none of this is true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Well, here`s.

C. ANTHONY: I mean I know that now it`s not true but at the time I believed it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.

G. ANTHONY: The day that she was born, after they got done cleaning my granddaughter off and stuff like that, who they handed her to was my wife, and my daughter is always.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hard to (INAUDIBLE)

G. ANTHONY: Yes. There`s been some toughness right there.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: When I asked her, why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, well, maybe I`m a spiteful (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Valez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. The road is getting narrower for tot mom Casey Anthony tonight as the clock ticks down to a secret grand jury hearing reportedly set for next Tuesday.

Could that result in a murder or a manslaughter indictment?

Published reports quote a top investigator who plans to testify before the grand jury as saying, even though there is no body, no crime scene, no murder weapon, no confession, no nothing, the totality of everything leads him to only one logical conclusion.

He believes prosecutors will be able to prove that Casey killed her daughter, Caylee, although we have to stress, she is not charged with that now. Casey`s defense attorneys in court today, fighting for evidence, and winning over vocal observations of prosecutors who don`t want to show their hand.

Let`s go out to Jessica D`Onofrio who`s been on top of the story from the very start, reporter for CNN affiliate with WKMG.

Tell us about this grand jury on Tuesday that`s reportedly going to convene. I understand it`s the last day of this grand jury. So how -- in the heck are they going to hear all of this evidence when we`re hearing witness after witness and all this evidence, the forensic evidence, the behavioral evidence, how are they going to cram that into one day and hope to come up with an indictment?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: That`s a very good question, Jane. It`s going to be -- there may be a lot of witnesses that this grand jury has to hear testimony from.

But, you know, going back to Jose Baez`s request today to have Casey Anthony be able to visit these key points of interest in the case here, her days may be numbered, because if that grand jury actually decides that she should be charged with manslaughter or murder, she`s going to go straight back to jail.

And in that case, there really isn`t a point there, and she won`t be able to travel to any of these key points of interest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shannon Fox, family therapist and a MomLogic.com contributor, his -- the attorney for Casey Anthony, Jose Baez, reportedly said he`s trying to prepare her for the worst.

Well, you heard -- you heard it right there. Tuesday, it could be very bad news for Casey. How do you prepare somebody for that?

SHANNON FOX, FAMILY THERAPIST, MOMLOGIC.COM CONTRIBUTOR: That`s a great question. Casey is one who hasn`t shown any emotion at all. She hasn`t shown any emotion at the disappearance of her daughter, and so now when faced with potential homicide charges, she still seems pretty -- she still seemed pretty straight-faced.

So it`s tough to break through that shell, and even prepare somebody for something that they don`t seem to be emotionally invested in at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we`ve got so many phone calls coming in.

Victor from Idaho, your question, sir.

VICTOR, IDAHO RESIDENT: My question is, if this goes to trial, would Casey -- could the defense bring up an insanity plea on this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that`s a very interesting question.

Let`s bring in the defense attorneys, Midwin Charles, Joey Jackson. You know, so many experts have said we don`t have the whole story. The prosecution is holding back on key evidence.

Do you think -- given everything you hear now and the possibility of x very incriminating being out there that -- Midwin, I`ll start with you -- they should go for an insanity defense?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that`s going to be real difficult here, Jane. When you have an insanity defense, you basically first have to admit that you did it, right? I mean, that hasn`t happened here yet. We don`t even know exactly what happened.

Because in an insanity defense, the person said, you know what, I did do it, but when I did it, I was insane. In other words, I didn`t know the difference between right or wrong. So I really don`t know if that will happen here.

But I will tell you this. She has not been acting like the normal mother. There has been no press conferences, there has been no crocodile tears. So there is clearly possibly a psychological issue here. And I`m sure her defense attorney is going to bring that out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Joey Jackson, defense attorney, one investigator said in all his years, he has never come up with a person that he`s had to deal with who is as tough as this individual in terms of maintaining a poker face.

Now that can work for her and it can also work against her if, hypothetically, she were to go to trial on more serious charges.

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It could, Jane, but we have to understand is that everyone processes information differently and handles information differently. And that`s why I believe -- getting back to what we were talking about earlier -- that not having her in the courtroom was brilliant by Mr. Baez.

Because now you focus the judge on the issues and the motion, and not on, oh, was she -- you know was she having a straight face, was she grinning, was she smiling, was she laughing, did she look confused, did she look disinterested.

And that`s why that was important. But with regard to the original issue of insanity, we`re nowhere near establishing or even talking about an insanity defense or -- you know, a plea at this point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you make a very good point, because had she shown up in court you know we`d be talking about what was she wearing.

JACKSON: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: . and was she acting strange.

JACKSON: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did she look at somebody cross-eyed? Did she show up in pajamas?

JACKSON: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. Well, that`s Michael Jackson. That`s another story, entirely.

All right, listen, Felicia, Alabama, I understand you have a question, ma`am.

FELICIA, ALABAMA RESIDENT: Yes, ma`am. Why is the judge not allowing the evidence from the cadaver dogs, considering they found a scent in Casey`s trunk?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let`s go to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers with Nutley, New Jersey Police Department. The judge said no to basically cross-examining the cadaver dogs. You cannot cross-examine dogs.

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, N.J. POLICE DEPT., FMR. MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes, that`s correct. What he`s saying, actually, is not to cross examine the police officers who used those dogs.

Now, why he did that, I don`t know. But I can tell you this. That the police need not fear any emotions by the defense attorney if they did a good job and I believe the police in this case did a very meticulous good job and we`re going to see an indictment for possibly murder next week.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know I want to go back to Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter, CNN affiliate WKMG. You`ve been following this possible grand jury that we expect to begin -- well, actually it`s the last day of the grand jury, but to begin to hear Casey Anthony`s case on Tuesday.

We`re hearing that her father, her mother and her brother might testify. We`re hearing about all these witnesses. Do you really think that they`re going to call the family to the stand? Because couldn`t that put them in a bad squeeze if they change their testimony from what they said originally that`s on tape to investigators when they were first interviewed?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, quite possibly, Jane. I mean -- I do I believe that they are going to call George Anthony to come and testify in front of that grand jury. I do believe they`ll call Cindy and I do believe that they`ll call Lee.

I mean these are the people who are closest to her, these are the people who knew about her movements, who knew what she said in the past, and I am sure that the prosecution is going to want to them to talk about that in front of this grand jury.

So I am sure that they are to be called -- George, absolutely for sure. I heard he was told to clear his schedule for Tuesday so that he could be there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Midwin Charles, Joey Jackson, what if the dad who`s clearly been so upset, understandably, with everything that`s gone on in his life, I mean, basically, this has wrecked his life, gets up there and says, you know, I don`t want to testify? What happens then, Midwin?

CHARLES: You know, very difficult. I mean, it`s going to be one of those things where he can possibly be held in contempt of court. They could go in and introduce his prior testimony to the police.

And, you know, say, hey, you said this back then. What do you mean you`re not willing to testify here? They`re open to variables here. I mean, at the end of the day, Jane, this is a family that just has been ripped apart by what has happened here. It`s really unfortunate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it is. You did see video right there of George throwing things because he`s just fed up. And who can judge? I mean, if we were in their shoes, how would we act? We don`t know.

But Joey, do you expect that he will testify cooperatively?

JACKSON: Well, you know, I don`t know how cooperatively it will be. But judging from all of the things that have occurred and the statements he`s made with respect to the trunk and all of the information that he`s provided, it would suggest that he would go in there and tell the grand jury his story.

The grand jury will indict. As Sol Wachtler has said, chief -- former chief judge of New York, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: It did seem like, it -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer. She is not a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We.

C. ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer. One thing I know is she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from an apartment complex and they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you there at all, that day.

Do you think that we`re stupid or we`re not going to.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: I know you`re not stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . do all this stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, Caylee may not be in very good shape. Do you understand what I`m saying? She may not be the way we -- the way your family last remembers her. We need to find out from you where Caylee is.

This -- right now is just -- this has gone so far downhill and this has become such a mess that we need to end it. It`s very simple, we just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew where in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Valez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. The case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony appears to be speeding toward a dramatic crescendo. Will a grand jury convene on Tuesday and indict the missing tot`s mother on murder or manslaughter?

Meantime, Casey Anthony`s lawyers rack up a string of very impressive wins in court. Just hours ago, as prosecutors fume, and all the while, the search for Caylee is kicking into high gear, that search is headed by Tim Miller, the head of Equusearch.

Tim, I understand you had a meeting today involving the Anthony family. Tell us about it.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: You know, Mark is just an incredible man, an incredible attorney, I would only hope that the Anthonys would take advantage of what he has got to offer. He certainly -- our meeting lasted for three hours.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did you discuss, though?

MILLER: We discussed the possibility of what`s going to happen in the future. We discussed where -- you know, how our hearts are broken for the Anthony family. I mean they`re going through something they never chose to go through.

Mark`s actually gotten with the Never Give up Hope Foundation to help us fund a continued search. And, you know what, Mark is just an incredible man and has a lot of compassion for this family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I understand that. But was there any news -- was there any news that came out of it?

MILLER: The news that came out of it was actually supposed to be meeting with the Anthony family and discuss future searches. You know, let them know that we`re not the enemy, we`re by their side.

And you know, I understand there`s a lot of emotions right now, and we hope maybe that meeting is going to happen tomorrow, so we can meet with George and Cindy and let them know what it looks like the future is going to bring to them.

And unfortunately, it doesn`t look good. But, again, this is not something that they chose, and my god, who would want to be in their shoes? And I think they got a lot more support than they understand.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. I agree with you 100 percent. We have nothing but compassion for the extended family. I mean, this is something that has to be a nightmare beyond comprehension.

Toni from Georgia, you have a question.

TONI, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Yes. Casey hasn`t worked in almost two years since she worked at Universal. Well, I was wondering if anyone knew where she had been spending her time and if that could give them any clues where to look.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer, what can you tell us about what she was actually doing when she told her mother over and over again and others, hey, I`m going off to work at Universal, which was totally bogus?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it seems that she was either spending time at her boyfriend`s apartment, at Tony Lazzaro`s apartment. Otherwise, she was off during the day, because Tony Lazzaro has actually said that during the day when he was in class, he didn`t know where Casey was.

He was under the impression that she was at work. So it remains to be seen exactly what she was doing during the day time hours. But in the evening she tended to be with her friends.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I want to go back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who has said in the past that there was always a grain of truth in Casey Anthoy`s lies.

She lied about working at Universal. She would go off in the morning and kind of disappear. And there`s really no clear-cut explanation of exactly what she was doing.

Is it possible that she had some kind of double life? And is that something that you think investigators are digging into or not?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, you know, earlier the gentleman with the police department from New Jersey said that the Orange County Sheriff`s Office has done a great job. They have.

There are some things that are going to come out at the grand jury that is just going to overwhelm people that have had any doubts. The child is dead. Orange County Sheriff`s Office and the FBI are very aware of this. They`ve got the proof. And at the grand.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, what proof? What proof? I mean, if we had the proof, we wouldn`t be here right now.

PADILLA: Oh, yes, oh, yes, because she is still presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I understand that.

PADILLA: . and with all certainty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But we wouldn`t be having this conversation.

PADILLA: Well, we`re having this conversation simply because somebody wishes to question the FBI`s lab results, the deed band on the hair and the decomposition of the -- of a human being in the trunk of the car.

Now maybe I`m old-fashioned, but I believe in those things, and so far, nobody has come up that is reputable and said, well, gee, here is the answer. Cindy said somebody had access to the trunk. Casey says, well, you know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

PADILLA: . Jesse might have put a body in there, you know?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me bring in Lawrence Kobilinsky, though, forensic scientist and he is the expert. Give us a thumbnail as we -- very quickly -- of all of the evidence of what it points to in terms of a deceased body.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, the issue of the hair first. There is -- it is known, it`s been published, that hair will develop a banding pattern after a person dies.

The banding pattern represents hair sacks, that to the naked eye, visibly, it looks like a banding pattern. There are maybe.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they found that in the hair?

KOBILINSKY: They -- well, this is what we`re hearing. We haven`t seen any official reports. But if that is true, then that is one indicator that we`re talking about somebody who -- who is deceased. There may be other explanations. I just don`t know enough about the findings.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And then -- and I have to leave it there, Kobe. But, of course, you have the air samples that showed signs of decomposition. You have the chloroform, you have the cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk. A lot of evidence. We`ll see where it leads.

But first, CNN HEROES.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN HEROES.

CINDY LAUPER, SINGER: Hate crime sends terror through a community.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shepard was left for dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never been attacked like this.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 22 swastikas were found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a random act of ignorance and violence.

LAUPER: You can die just because of who you are.

I`m Cindy Lauper. And my hero is Cathy Nelson because she fights for the rights of all people. Straight and gay.

CATHY NELSON, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Lesbian and gay, bisexual and transgender equality is really the civil rights issue of this generation. I`m a lesbian and I see the issues very personally.

In 1989, I went to work for the human rights campaign.

This looks great, I really it.

Events are a vital part of what we do. It`s raising the visibility of the issues that we`re working on.

Cindy`s 2007 True Colors Tour was an amazing opportunity to educate about the upcoming hate crimes bill in Congress.

LAUPER: She had this idea of taking a postcard and send it to your congressman.

NELSON: Becoming an activist starts with one simple step.

LAUPER: We have to erase hate. It`s a lose-lose situation. I hope you all listen. Let you know about things that are going on. Right now, we could change.

NELSON: So what drives me is fighting for fairness and equality.

LAUPER: Cathy has helped a lot of people and don`t take any (INAUDIBLE) for it. And that`s a hero.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com/heroes.

CNN HEROES is sponsored by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: There`ll be a hearing at Orange County court where her attorney Jose Baez will argue his client should be allowed out of house arrest and she should be able to search what they`re calling places of interest in this case.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: What do you mean she wants out of house arrest. She should be in jail, number one. If she was out on bond the first time, she didn`t lift one little pinky, not one finger, to help find Caylee. So why now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.

GRACE: It`s been long time coming, guilty on O.J. Simpson, the former NFL Hall of Famer turn double murder suspect, has finally snagged a conviction out in Vegas after an alleged armed robbery.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony. CNN affiliate WKMG reports that toddler (INAUDIBLE) may soon be facing homicide charges relating to the disappearance of her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Today they released this video along with court documents in their check fraud case against Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We`ve seen that she purchased that hoody that she was wearing when she was arrested. We also see she purchased those white sunglasses that she`s become known for wearing now.

GRACE: Joining us tonight the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. Equuseach back in Florida, set to resume search for little Caylee.

MILLER: The last thing (INAUDIBLE) 1186 volunteers out there, plus all the resources (INAUDIBLE).

PADILLA: If Casey doesn`t come with up with a body between now and then, there`s definitely going to be an indictment.

And shortly thereafter, Tim`s going to find the body.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Marine Corporal Jonathan Yale, 21, from Burkeville, Virginia, killed in Iraq. Lost his life saving fellow soldiers. Awarded the Purple Heart and Combat Action Ribbon.

He loved making people happy, skateboarding, paintball. He leaves behind grieving mom Rebecca and sister Tammy.

Jonathan Yale, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. We`re going to see you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock Eastern Time. In the meantime have a happy and a very safe evening.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/10/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Dress Like Caylee`s Found Near Airport

Aired October 13, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. A secret grand jury set to meet in about 12 hours. Prosecutors reportedly seeking homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony. Only question, will that charge be manslaughter or murder? When and if the indictment is handed down, mom Casey`s arrest likely immediate. Grandfather George the only witness from the Anthony family, as grandmother Cindy lashing out, claiming a political conspiracy, claiming that mom Casey`s the real victim and claiming police stopped searching for Caylee.

Three crucial defense motions still on the table, including mom Casey`s demand to break house arrest to personally and privately search for little Caylee. And tonight, a bombshell discovery by Texas Equusearch, back on the ground in Orlando. Is there finally a break in the search? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing toddler Caylee Marie Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony could be facing a murder charge in the next 24 hours, as prosecutors are set to make their case in front of a grand jury early tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: After about 7:00 o`clock, when I still hadn`t heard anything, I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic. And I went to a neutral place. I didn`t really want to come home. I wasn`t sure what I`d say about not knowing where Caylee was, still hoping that I would get a call, or you know, find out that Caylee was coming back so that I could go get her. And I ended up going to my boyfriend, Anthony`s, house who lived in Sutton Place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you talk to Anthony about what happened with Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I did not.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: All it seemed like from day one is that you were building a case against Casey as a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We...

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We...

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is that she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s obviously one glowing (ph) factor, and that is that there is zero evidence in these documents that Casey harmed Caylee in any way or even remotely supports that accusation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony, who is a prime suspect in the case, is currently only charged with child neglect, as well as theft and fraud for allegedly stealing checks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You nervous about tomorrow, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony appears to be speeding toward a dramatic crescendo. Will a grand jury convene on Tuesday and indict the missing tot`s mother on murder or manslaughter?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I call Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service. So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house. So I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone, a couple stores, just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re...

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission...

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony remains the prime suspect in her daughter`s disappearance and maintains the child was kidnapped by the baby- sitter, Zenaida Gonzalez. Prosecutors are expected to present evidence, along with witness testimony, asking jurors to indict the tot mom on more serious charges. One of the witnesses that will reportedly be called is Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, who police say was the last person to see the child alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, what`s the latest?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, we`re waiting on the grand jury hearing tomorrow. We`re certainly going to be out there at 8:30 in the morning bright and early. That`s when she could be charged with murder or manslaughter. I`ve been hearing people now talk about charging her with child abuse leading to death. So we`re going to get some kind of indication on what the charges will be tomorrow, if that grand jury hands down an indictment.

We know that George -- I know that George got subpoenaed. That`s Casey`s father, George Anthony, got subpoenaed last Friday. So he will be the only family member to testify against her tomorrow in front of that grand jury. We`re also going to hear from several other people. About a half a dozen people will testify in front of them. We`ll hear from an FBI expert, among others, because that FBI expert obviously will know a lot more about that hair and the DNA and the death band on that hair that was found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.

GRACE: Out to Mark Williams with WNDB 1150. Mark, here`s the kicker. Isn`t it true that under Florida law, only cases that may result in capital punishment go to the grand jury?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: That`s it. That`s the Florida law right now as it stands, that if you are convicted or are accused of a capital crime before it goes to trial, you must have a true bill. So there`s anywhere from 15 to 21 grand jurors. Twelve jurors have to say that, yes, it is, in fact, a true bill, and they hand it back and say, OK, let`s go get this person. Let`s arrest this person and bring them into custody.

GRACE: Now, let me get something straight. I thought it took a simple majority, Mark Williams.

WILLIAMS: I`m hearing it`s 12 people that must say yea or nay to this. They must have 12 affirmative votes on that panel to get that true bill.

GRACE: So Jessica D`Onofrio, they do not need a simple majority out of 15? They can get by with 12?

D`ONOFRIO: I`m not exactly sure about the number there, Nancy. But what I do know is all they need to do is really convince this grand jury that there`s a reasonable suspicion that this child is dead and that the mother did it. If that`s the case, then this grand jury will likely hand down an indictment for murder or manslaughter.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. In about 12 hours, tot mom Casey Anthony`s case headed to a Florida grand jury. We are expecting homicide charges to be handed down against her. She is currently out on bond, on house arrest at her parents` home. That would end likely immediately with an arrest.

Let`s unleash the lawyers as we take your calls. We`ll be shortly joined by the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. Joining us tonight out of New York, Alex Sanchez, veteran trial lawyer, and defense attorney Jason Oshins, also out of New York.

Alex Sanchez, true bill, no bill -- explain the difference.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A true bill simply means that the grand jury has voted an indictment, meaning they have voted charges against you. A no bill means that the grand jury has decided that there is simply not enough evidence against you at the present time to have any charges filed against you.

GRACE: And Jason Oshins, to get a no bill does not mean the case is over with. That means that the state can then go and try to amass additional information and present the grand jury the same case again, if they want to.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re absolutely correct, Nancy.

GRACE: And also, the whole argument, Jason Oshins -- the defense attorney in this case announced on national TV he, quote, "doesn`t believe in the grand jury system," which has been around since about the 12th century. Grand jury is just a charging mechanism. This is not a jury trial. This is very simply when a group of people chosen from property taxes or the voter registration list meet -- there are 15 to 21 in Florida -- and they decide is there probable cause, is there enough evidence to charge someone, to send the case to a jury to determine the truth of the matter. Jason, agree or disagree?

OSHINS: Well, you`re right. It`s a very low standard. I mean, all you`re looking at, basically, is, you know, as opposed to reasonable doubt, you`re looking at a de minimus, you know, level of evidence. And it`s presented by an arm of the prosecutor`s office. There`s no judge involved. It`s -- you know, it`s you against the prosecution right there with a very, very low standard to bring a true bill.

GRACE: Right now, I am being joined out of Orlando, Florida, by the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. And let me remind you, Tim Miller not just the head of this searching tool that has gone all over the world searching for missing people, particularly children and teens, he is a crime victim himself, Tim Miller`s daughter murdered and missing many, many years ago.

Tim, you`re back in Orlando, searching for Caylee Anthony. I understand you made a discovery.

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Yes. I didn`t make the discovery. The discovery was made by a searcher. I`m very disappointed that it leaked, and it shouldn`t have been. But now it`s out, we need to clarify it.

GRACE: OK. I understand -- when I say "you," I am referring to Texas Equusearch. Was the searcher someone working with Texas Equusearch?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: And what was the discovery?

MILLER: Well, you know, it was an article of clothing that is very, very similar to an article of clothing that Caylee was wearing at one time and there`s a picture of it.

But Nancy, we`ve got to understand one thing. There`s been several articles of clothing found during this search effort. Many of them were sent off to a lab for analysis, and this one is being sent off also. So...

GRACE: OK, Tim Miller, let me ask you a couple of questions. Was the article of clothing a dress?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: OK. Was Caylee Anthony known to have a similar dress at one time?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: Was it a child`s size 6?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: Would a child size 6 be the size a 2 to 3-year-old girl would wear?

MILLER: I don`t think so. I`ve got my doubts on this. But you know, law enforcement`s doing their job...

GRACE: Well, according to our research, the answer is, in fact, yes. A child 2 to 3 years old would wear a child size 6, but it really depends on Caylee`s height and size. Tim Miller, where was the dress discovered?

MILLER: Well, it was alongside a road. It was a wooded area. It was laying in the bushes and...

GRACE: Was it near the Orlando airport?

MILLER: It was in an area where the -- of interest, where cell tower activity was happening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The minute she gets re-arrested on the murder charge or the manslaughter charge, when it`s brought in by the indictment, she`ll have a no bail, and she won`t be able to go anywhere anyhow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I think tomorrow is a political move on the state`s attorney`s office. I think that the only reason that they`re doing this is because Lawson Lamar (ph) finally has some competition in this race. I found out on good sources this weekend that that`s exactly why it`s going to grand jury tomorrow. I find that it`s absurd that all of these leaks are coming out of not only the state`s attorney`s office but the prosecutors office and the sheriff`s department at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing the defense continues to claim leaks by the prosecution when they are the ones that went on the NBC "Today" show to talk about the case.

We are taking your calls live. In about 12 hours, the Florida grand jury set to meet in the case of tot mom Casey Anthony. Homicide charges expected to be handed down, and if they are, her arrest will be immediate. This as Texas Equusearch has discovered near the Orlando International Airport a child-size 6 Disney World and Mickey Mouse dress similar to one little Caylee once wore. It has been sent off for testing, and we are waiting to hear results on that.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Cindy in Louisiana. Hi, Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear? And hello to all of our Cajun friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. I have two really quick questions. One, who put up the bond for Casey Anthony to remain free after Leonard Padilla revoked her original bond? And was there ever any more information released about the improper use of donated funds by Casey`s parents?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who first put up that bond. He`s joining us tonight from Reno, Nevada. He is from the California area. Mr. Padilla, who -- after you came off the original bond, who put up the bond to let her out?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I believe that it was two companies. They each put up $250,000. One of them was McDonald (ph) Bail Bonds, and I believe the other half was put up by one of the major players in the bail industry in Florida, a fellow by the name of Russell Fabish (ph), through one of his agents. I believe. I could be wrong.

GRACE: Leonard, isn`t it true -- I`ve got the bonding documents right here. Isn`t that true that the parents put up surety to back those bonds?

PADILLA: Supposedly, Cindy and George put up the equity in their home to back the bond for collateral, yes.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by also in Orlando. What became of allegations of improper use of Caylee`s search funds?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, at this point, it was being investigated. The fund was shut down for a certain point of time, and now it has reopened with a different bank. But none of those allegations were ever substantiated.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio, joining us with WKMG. If a murder charge is handed down tomorrow, what becomes of the child abuse -- the child neglect charges that are currently on the books?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, Nancy, that charge could possibly be thrown out if a grand jury does decide to indict her on murder or manslaughter charges. So we`ll just have to wait and see if that happens.

GRACE: You know -- to the lawyers, Jason Oshins and Alex Sanchez. Alex, it`s my understanding that the child neglect charge will absolutely be thrown out. Why? Because the child neglect charge accuses her of not searching for her daughter when she goes missing. You come in with a murder or a homicide charge, that completely voids out the claim she didn`t conduct a search.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I think there`s two things that could happen with those cases. Number one, the prosecutor could try to merge both cases together under one indictment, the neglect charges and the possible murder charges. But more likely than that, the prosecutor may turn around and say, I`m voluntarily moving to dismiss the neglect charges and concentrate on the murder case.

GRACE: Jason, absolutely does not make any sense. They are factually conflicting. You cannot claim the mother was neglectful by not reporting her child missing or searching for her, when, in fact, you`re claiming she killed her. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. You`ve got to choose charges.

OSHINS: Listen, the prosecution is not going to waste its valuable resources and the taxpayers` money to go on that lesser charge. That was done initially to hold her and to try and squeeze her for any further information. They`re definitely going to go after that top count and put all their resources inside that.

GRACE: To Deborah in Wisconsin. Hi, Deborah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know about the shovel that Casey borrowed from her neighbor.

GRACE: Yes? What about it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dirt on that shovel ever tested to see if it matched the dirt at the airport?

GRACE: What do we know about that shovel? Joining us, WNDB news person Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, what we know about the shovel is the last time we saw, it was bagged up by Orange County sheriff`s office investigators and taken out for testing. During tomorrow`s testimony, there`s, like, a half dozen investigators going to testify in front of the grand jury. That`s when we`re going to know what was on that shovel. That is the one unyielding piece of evidence which will probably come up tomorrow morning.

GRACE: Joining us, renowned medical examiner and author of "When to Call the Doctor," Dr. Joshua Perper joining us out of Miami, Florida. Dr. Perper, thank you for joining us. Dr. Perper, are you -- we expect tomorrow the grand jury to hear from about 12 witnesses, one being George Anthony, the grandfather, some detectives, most likely FBI, lab people.

Dr. Perper, are you familiar with the air samples that were analyzed by the body farm? Have you ever heard of the air samples being analyzed?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: I didn`t heard specifically, but if the hair samples have bouts (ph) or roots, then it`s possible to check them for DNA and find out to whom they belong, whether they belong to Caylee or to the mother.

GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding that the hair has a banding mark on it. What does that signify?

PERPER: Well, it might signify there was some kind of object which produce this kind of mark, but it`s going to be very difficult to make a determination what was this particular object.

GRACE: And back to Mark Williams. Mark, who do you expect to come before the grand jury?

WILLIAMS: Well, we expect, obviously, Orange County sheriff`s office investigators who have been working this case since mid-July. Also, forensic specialists from the FBI. Also, FBI agents who have also worked on this case. They`re all wind (ph) up, ready to testify come tomorrow morning.

GRACE: Mark Williams, what do you know about the dark banding on the hair sample allegedly taken out of mom Casey`s car trunk?

WILLIAMS: Well, from what we understand is that hair banding -- and I`m not a forensic scientist by any stretch of the imagination -- that that shows -- when you see that banding, that shows that death has occurred to that person who that hair belongs to. And they have found that banding, Nancy, on that sample of hair they took out of Casey Anthony`s automobile.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is obviously one glowing (ph) factor, and that is that there is zero evidence in these documents that Casey harmed Caylee in any way, or even remotely supports that accusation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury will consider a range of charges against Casey, including first degree murder. It would only take a simple majority to find probable cause to indict, much lower beyond the guilt beyond a reasonable doubt threshold to later gain a conviction. Sources tell us they do expect a decision to indict or not by the end of the day Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That grand jury set to meet behind closed doors in about 12 hours from now, hearing evidence and testimony in the case against tot mom Casey Anthony.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. I understand that the only member of the Anthony family to testify will be grandfather George. What is the crux of his testimony?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, Nancy, you know, you`ve heard in a lot of those -- that taped interrogation, he talks about Casey not letting him into the trunk of her car. He wanted to go back there. He thought she was acting a little strange, so he wanted to go inside her trunk. And she just blows right past him and gets something out of the trunk for him, whatever he wants.

So he`s going to provide a lot of information about her behavior, so on and so forth. Again, he`s the only person in the family to be testifying against her. We`re not going to hear from Cindy or Lee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: The road is getting narrower for tot mom Casey Anthony, tonight, as the clock ticks down to a secret grand jury hearing.

Could that result in a murder or a manslaughter indictment?

Published reports quote a top investigator who plans to testify before the grand jury as saying, even though there is no body, no crime scene, no murder weapon, no confession, no nothing, the totality of everything leads him to only one logical conclusion.

He believes prosecutors will be able to prove that Casey killed her daughter, Caylee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: In about 12 hours, the grand jury is set to either hand down a no bill or a true bill against mom Casey Anthony on homicide charges, meaning court watchers expect that to be a murder charge.

In the jurisdiction of Florida, only capital cases go before a grand jury. That`s in about 12 hours. At this time, we discover that Texas EquuSearch has discovered near the Orlando International Airport a child`s Disney World Mickey Mouse dress, size 6 -- child`s size 6 similar to a dress little Caylee once had and has been sent away for testing.

With me, the head of Texas EquuSearch, Tim Miller. His group working solely on donations. They are a volunteer group.

Tim Miller, is it true that you are considering pulling out of the search for one reason, because of lack of cooperation from the Anthony family?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, JUST FOUND CHILD`S DRESS NEAR AIRPORT: You know, it`s -- we`ve got to remember, this is not about the Anthony family, and at times, allegations have been made against me, and it`s OK. This is about Caylee.

No, one of our members is actually on vacation this week that`s going to spend the entire week mapping areas out for this search to resume. We will be back here in two to three weeks, at the very, very most.

And this is about Caylee. We start getting focused on the other things.

GRACE: Mr. Miller, are -- is the family cooperating with you?

MILLER: Well, you know what, there is a report from a news reporter in Orlando that talked to Cindy today, and told Cindy that we`re $44,000 plus in this search, and in the efforts we`re putting in, and what the reporter told me that Cindy Anthony said that she would never speak to me again.

GRACE: Why?

MILLER: I -- I don`t have the answer for that. We were supposed to have some meetings this week when we came into town, have a group hug, let`s work together on this. They have been cancelled at the last minute. And.

GRACE: By whom? Who cancelled the meetings?

MILLER: By the Anthony family. By the Anthony family.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by there in Orlando. Natisha, why is the family reportedly not cooperating with EquuSearch?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, reportedly, Nancy, because the family still has hope that they want to find Caylee alive. And that is what they believe. And.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t they want to find her whether she were dead or alive? Wouldn`t they want to find her remains to know?

LANCE: Right. Yes, absolutely. But they want to search.

GRACE: It would kill me to have a loved one`s remains out in the open, being mistreated by the elements in that manner.

LANCE: They want to search with the guys that Caylee is still alive. And so they have felt that some things Tim Miller may have said.

GRACE: But why don`t they do both, Natisha? Why can`t both searches be possible?

LANCE: They don`t want to operate under that, Nancy. They want to operate under the assumption that Caylee is alive.

GRACE: OK.

LANCE: And they do not want to hear that she`s not.

GRACE: Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author of "When to Worry" -- Dr. Boesky, thank you for being with us, what do you read into their rejection of Tim Miller and Texas EquuSearch?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO WORRY": Well, I think that they -- I do not think that they think Caylee is still alive. I think they have lost their granddaughter, and now they`re trying to save their daughter.

And I have to think that there are some mixed emotions going on with Cindy, thinking, you know, as a mom would, could I have done more? Should I have adopted Caylee? Should I have pressed harder when we hadn`t seen Caylee?

I think that they`re really looking at how much enabling they did over the years and now they feel like this is their last hope to keep their daughter out of prison and they`re doing everything they can to try and convince us that she`s still alive. And I think deep down they know Caylee is not.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. With us, Alex Sanchez and Jason Oshins, both veteran trial lawyers. These are not just talking heads, they are in court on a routine basis handling felony matters.

To Alex Sanchez, do you expect an indictment to be handed down tomorrow?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t, because there`s no -- this is going to take quite a long time to present these witnesses.

GRACE: You know, are you the same Alex Sanchez that has blurted out on the air, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich? Wasn`t that you?

SANCHEZ: I don`t believe I ever said that.

GRACE: Yes, I believe it was you.

SANCHEZ: Although the chief judge of the New York Court of Appeals said that. But in terms of the grand jury.

GRACE: It was actually Irvin Younger -- the state`s Irvin Younger who coined that. But please go ahead.

SANCHEZ: In terms of the grand jury, you have all these witnesses. They have to be brought to court. They have to testify. They have to bring their documents. You have to play tape recordings, a video, introduce laboratory reports.

It`s not likely that they`re going to come to this conclusion in one day. It`s more likely this is going to take several days, or even a couple of weeks to come to a determination.

GRACE: Jason Oshins, agree or disagree?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think Alex is right. There is a -- monumental amount of evidence, and they want to get it right. They want to put it all in and have this impaneled grand jury come back with a true bill.

GRACE: This is not a trial jury, Jason Oshins and Alex Sanchez. You are intentionally misleading the viewers. This is simply a charging tool by the state. They hear a bare bones, skeleton case and they simply decide -- is there enough evidence that a jury should hear this case?

SANCHEZ: And by the way.

GRACE: And that`s all a grand jury does, Sanchez.

SANCHEZ: I think they`re making a mistake right now with this new evidence regarding the dress. Shouldn`t the grand jury be delayed until they find out the results of that dress, whether or not it was her dress or not?

GRACE: You know, that is the defense chief tactic.

To John Lucich, former investigator, author of "Cyber Lies," isn`t it true that a defense`s prime strategic tool is delay, delay, delay? The longer you wait, the weaker the state`s case may get, and the more likely memories will fade, witnesses and evidence will be lost. They always want to delay.

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Absolutely, they do. In fact, they will also try and use the prosecution`s evidence against them.

You know, Baez just released a motion to get all this type of evidence. They want not only inculpatory evidence, but exculpatory evidences also.

Things that have proved negative for the investigation and they want all of this stuff to.

GRACE: No, I tell you, I don`t have a problem with that, Lucich. The Brady versus Maryland motion, which is a U.S. Supreme Court case, originating out of Maryland, says the state must hand over exculpatory evidence to the defense. Fine. Have at it.

If there is something exculpatory about Casey Anthony, I would like to hear it in court. The jury wants to hear it, fine. The state should win this case, fair and square if they can.

But to you, Lucich, the defense has been granted on Friday the ability to review much of the state`s physical evidence. How will that happen? Would you actually trust the defense attorneys to handle your evidence?

LUCICH: No. Let me just go back to the first point that you just talked about, because at the grand jury, they`re not going to get a chance to hear that exculpatory information and only hear one side of this case. And I think they`re going to have to put so much in, that they`re going to be able -- it`s going to take several days.

Now, as far as this second question you had for me, they`re not -- they`re not going to be able to.

GRACE: Yes. The Brady motion is not for the grand jury. That is for the petite jury of 12. Continue.

LUCICH: Right. They`re not going to be able to touch that stuff without being monitored 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They`re not going to have sole access to that.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the calls. Linda in Texas, hi, Linda.

LINDA, TEXAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is for your psychologist tonight.

GRACE: Yes.

LINDA: OK. I know that this case is quickly coming to a head, and I have all the sympathy in the world for the grandparents, but Cindy, the grandmother, I`m wondering, considering everything that Casey has done and said up to this point, Cindy has made excuses for her.

I`m wondering if somewhere, somehow, that Cindy is actually afraid of Casey, considering that she has called her a -- a sociopath herself.

GRACE: Excellent question. Dr. Boesky?

BOESKY: Well, I think this is very typical these days that a lot of teenagers and young adults, parents try to be their friend or they don`t want to get them angry. And you can tell that Casey can blackmail her parents. She can punish them. I mean you`ve heard what she said about herself being a spiteful B-I-T-C-H.

And so I think there is a level of fear. Not fear that she is going to hurt them or kill them, but I think there was fear that she was going to take little Caylee away from them, and so I think they did more for her just to keep her around, so that they could see their granddaughter.

GRACE: Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live.

And as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to a Pensacola, Florida little friend of the show. There he is, little Joey. He turns 5 years old today. A 5-year-old little crime fighter.

Isn`t he precious? Happy birthday, little Joey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey, she`s be standing right here by all of us. She`d be out searching if she could.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: I have tried to find out just information from people going out to different places, like Fusion Ultra Lounge and a couple bars that I know Zenaida had gone to downtown before to see.

Just kind of random talk if anybody heard about my nanny or talk to her lately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell anyone specifically that Zenaida took your child?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The Florida grand jury set to meet on homicide charges reportedly in about 12 hours from now. Charges against to have the mom Casey Anthony in the disappearance her little girl, 3-year-old Caylee Marie. We are taking your calls live.

Out to Natisha Lance, standing in Orlando Florida. Grandmother Cindy is lashing out, making a lot of claims, including a political conspiracy against Casey Anthony? What does that mean?

LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. She is saying there are -- the district attorney, as well as the sheriff are up -- the sheriff is leaving office in January, and the district attorney is up for re-election in November. So she is making the insinuation that possibly they are doing things for political gain. He wanted to close some things out before he leaves office.

GRACE: But wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. He`s leaving the sheriff`s office. What, is he going to retire?

LANCE: Yes.

GRACE: I couldn`t hear you. Yes?

LANCE: Yes, yes.

GRACE: So how is it going to help him to bring a charge if he`s retiring?

LANCE: Well.

GRACE: He`s going to sit on his sofa and watch TV. And how is this going to help him?

LANCE: Well, he`s.

GRACE: No, I`m serious.

LANCE: Well, the sheriff`s office is saying that`s absolutely not true whatsoever that that.

GRACE: So what is her thinking? I`m asking you. Why - how could the sheriff -- he`s retiring. How could this benefit him?

LANCE: I guess they`re thinking that possibly they want to go out with a big bang.

GRACE: OK. Jessica D`Onofrio, thoughts?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, let me just get something straight here, Nancy. The state attorney -- our state attorney here in Orange, Osceola County is Lawson Lamar. He is up for re- election.

GRACE: For re-election, yes. And the sheriff is retiring.

D`ONOFRIO: So he`ll be up for.

GRACE: We just heard that.

D`ONOFRIO: Exactly, exactly. So I guess what Cindy is trying to say here is he is trying to sneak this case in before he is up for reelection here. He doesn`t have a lot of time left, and he`s sneaking this in before the grand jury dissolves.

GRACE: Can I ask you, Jessica, does he have competition?

D`ONOFRIO: Sure.

GRACE: Who`s running against him?

D`ONOFRIO: He does have some competition out here in Orange/Osceola County, but I can say that it`s not just Cindy who is making these allegations. A lot of the people who I`ve talked to around the case have also brought that up, that this might be politically motivated.

And you know, a lot of people are trying to protect this case, and a lot of people want to see this case through. And I think that maybe their frustration may come in here, because they don`t want to see this case maybe tried before everything comes in, before all.

GRACE: You know.

D`ONOFRIO: . of the evidence comes in. Because there`s no statute of limitations on murder here. They can wait 25 years and bring this.

GRACE: Yes, yes. To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of California who first put up the bond for mom Casey Anthony. To say this case politically motivated is completely inane, because, Leonard, a little girl is missing.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: No, no.

GRACE: She`s gone. There is evidence of a dead body in the mother`s car trunk, with hair that is either the little girl`s or the mother`s that shows the person is dead, most likely. So how can anyone say this is a political stunt? There is evidence of death.

PADILLA: That`s a Cindyism. But, Nancy, let me take you back to the shovel. She backs the car into the garage, she takes the child, lays her dawn, takes her clothes off, moves the ladder towards the edge of the pool, puts the child in the pool, going to make it look like a drowning.

The child drops to the bottom of the pool, she goes to the neighbors, pulls the shovel from the neighbor, comes back up, scoops the child up, puts her back down on the grass.

GRACE: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Go ahead.

PADILLA: Anyhow. All I`m saying is.

GRACE: OK. Let me just say.

PADILLA: . there is your shovel. There is your shovel.

GRACE: . one line -- the search for chloroform shows me that there was never any accident. But you`re saying that.

PADILLA: You`re correct.

GRACE: . explains.

PADILLA: She wanted to make it look like a 911 accident.

GRACE: Understood.

PADILLA: But it never happened.

GRACE: Understood.

To Crystal in Georgia, hi, crystal.

CRYSTAL, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hey, Nancy. I love your show. I watch it every night. My question is.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

CRYSTAL: My question is, is when Casey goes in front of the grand jury in the morning, and they charge her with murder or manslaughter or whatever, and she goes to jail, will she get a bond? And if so, is it going to be the same old crazy stuff that`s been going on with all of the lies and -- playing games?

GRACE: Excellent question, Crystal in Georgia. Number one, she will not appear at the grand jury. There is -- you`re a target of the grand jury investigation or charging, you do not have to testify against yourself. She will not be there tomorrow.

But, back to Leonard Padilla. In a nutshell, she is out on bond on child neglect right now. If she is indicted -- and the fraud charges, for the checks. If she is indicted, that bond will be revoked. Will there be a bond on murder?

PADILLA: In a nutshell, no. She goes to jail, and she stays there.

GRACE: Does Florida give a bond on murder?

PADILLA: I don`t know what Florida does. California does on very few occasions, but not on murder one.

GRACE: Out to -- Tamara in Tennessee. Hi, Tamara.

TAMARA, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hey, how are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

TAMARA: Well, George and Cindy Anthony previously stated they had certain persons of interest under observation.

GRACE: Yes.

TAMARA: OK. Who were these people? Why were they of interest and what`s the status on this?

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB, recall when George and Cindy stated there are other people of interest they believe little Caylee and they are being surveyed. What became of it?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Not much of anything. You know that was just a statement that George Anthony made under the heat of the pressure one day.

One Friday -- I believe it was one Friday afternoon, he was not able to produce any evidence and since that time, of course, he and Cindy have had several meetings with sheriff`s office investigators.

And Nancy, if I could say, I think when this thing is done -- said and done, I think Cindy and all three of them could be charged with obstruction of justice.

GRACE: I find that very, very difficult to believe, Mark Williams, but I do agree the parents are trying their best to help their daughter.

To Tracy in Maryland, hi, Tracy.

TRACY, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. My question is for Tim with EquuSearch. Wouldn`t he be able to get the reward money if he does find Caylee? And that would help his cause a lot?

GRACE: Excellent question. Tim Miller?

MILLER: You know what, from what I understand, that reward money is for a safe return and I -- we are not here for any money and no reason whatsoever. This is about Caylee, 100 percent Caylee.

So let`s not talk about money, OK?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In about 12 hour, the Florida grand jury expected to hear evidence regarding indicting tot mom Casey Anthony in the disappearance of her little girl.

Out to the lines, Lynn, in North Carolina. Hi, Lynn.

LYNN, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

LYNN: Yes, they -- this question is for Mr. Miller. The dress that they found at the airport, was it in tact, was it torn or tattered or looked like it had been mutilated by animals or something?

GRACE: What was the condition of the dress, Tim?

MILLER: Good condition.

GRACE: Good condition.

MILLER: Good condition.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by, grandmother Cindy, making a lot of accusations right now, including a conspiracy that police are not looking for little Caylee. What else?

LANCE: Well, just like you said she is saying that police are not looking for little Caylee. She also said that she has proof that they are not taking tips and following up on those tips any more.

GRACE: Also claiming that mom Casey is the real victim. What does she mean by that?

LANCE: She said that Caylee is not -- she said that Casey is a victim as well. To that, I guess, she said that her daughter has been tried in the court of public opinions. She said the jury pool is being tainted as well as the grand jury pool and there`s going to be no chance for Casey to get a fair trial.

GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB 1150, when will we know about the indictment?

WILLIAMS: I was thinking, I have to agree with some of your other experts. It`s not going to be tomorrow by any stretch of the imagination, because there will be a lot of evidence to be presented.

I would hope by the end of the week since they just have to have a burden of proof that -- that there is enough proof there to issue a murder one indictment.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll give you the latest tomorrow night. But let`s stop now to remember Army Specialist Ronald Harrison, 25, Morris Plains, New Jersey, killed Iraq. Proud to serve, loved football, basketball, cooking.

His family`s favorite dishes, carrots and fish, chicken and London broil. Dreamed of working as an auto mechanic back home. Leaves behind parents, Richard and Beverly, sister, Heather, widow, Kagen, and son, Max.

Ronald Harrison, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/13/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Indicated for First Degree Murder

Aired October 14, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Tonight, tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars after a Florida grand jury hands down a seven-count indictment. Charges: murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and of course, lying to police. Testimony starting 09:00 this morning, including grandfather George Anthony, cadaver dog handlers, the FBI and lead detective. Bombshell results from Tennessee`s state body farm reportedly sealing the decision to take the case to grand jury.

Tot mom Casey Anthony pulled over in traffic and arrested. No bond tonight. But did she actually make a last-ditch attempt to elude police in a getaway car? This just after a press conference where she sheds tears. But for who, little Caylee or herself? Will the state seek the death penalty? That would be making tot mom Casey Anthony the 16th woman in Florida history to be sentenced to death. But still tonight, the question remains, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today an experienced Orange County grand jury has heard sworn testimony and they returned a seven-count indictment against Casey Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. An Orange County grand jury has indicted tot mom Casey Anthony for first degree murder, and as a result, the 22- year-old tot mom could be facing the death penalty.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: ... waste my call sitting in, oh, the jail?

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Whose fault is...

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: Whose fault is you sitting in the jail? Are you blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you would have told them the truth and not lied about everything...

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. She has a missing child. She`s also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? Mom asked me yesterday, even (INAUDIBLE) they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only was Anthony indicted for murder, but the grand jury indicted her on six additional charges, including aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. A Florida grand jury hands down a multi- count indictment against mom Casey Anthony, including murder one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First and foremost, I would like to make it clear that we are not here to rejoice in today`s grand jury indictment. We are, however, pleased that the ladies and gentlemen serving on that jury were able to hear the evidence presented to them and arrive at an informed conclusion based strictly on the evidence that was presented to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, I know and you know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I told you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you`ve told me, including where Caylee is right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do. And here`s -- let me -- let me...

CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not know where she is.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would again ask you and implore all of you to try and understand what Casey is going through and to understand that we have been preparing from day one for the very worst because that`s my job. And I wouldn`t be doing her a proper service if I didn`t prepare her for probably what`s going to go down today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go through this again. We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speaking directly as a father, a day doesn`t pass where I wish the evidence we have gathered in this case didn`t add up to the painfully obvious. Sadly, I cannot change the facts surrounding this investigation. The grand jury has concluded that little Caylee is deceased, and their daughter has been indicted in her death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, give us the latest.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, it only took 30 minutes for this grand jury to decide that Casey Anthony should be charged with first degree murder. Now, that charge does carry the death penalty in this state. And state attorney Lawson Lamar -- he was able to convince 12 -- at least 12 of the 19 jurors that this should go to trial. So this is a big, big twist in the case. This is a major event here, obviously. That doesn`t even need to be said. But as you like to say, Nancy, a major bombshell today.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Explain to me what went down today.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, what went down was those 12 -- at least 12 of those jurors said -- they indicted her on first degree murder, which is a capital case here in the state of Florida, also one count of child abuse, one count of aggravated manslaughter of a child and four counts of lying to police officers. That`s the big thing.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Who were the witnesses at grand jury?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Who were the witnesses, did you say?

GRACE: Yes.

PIERCE: Well, first and foremost, George Anthony, who spoke for over an hour. And he made a statement beforehand saying that he was not happy to be doing it, but he did testify. Also, we heard from FBI agents, from forensic investigators, from the Orange County lead investigator, Yuri Melich.

GRACE: And Jessica D`Onofrio, in what order did they go before the grand jury? How long were they testifying?

D`ONOFRIO: They started, Nancy, at about 9:00 o`clock this morning. They heard from about half a dozen witnesses. They went through to lunch. They broke for lunch. They came back around 1:00 PM, and then they heard from about two more witnesses after that. So there were quite a few hours of testimony there. And about 3:30 in the afternoon, that`s when we heard that the grand jury had made a decision on this. That`s when we were all called in to the chambers, and that`s when we heard that she was going to be charged with a capital offense.

GRACE: And what do we know, Mark Williams with WNDB, whether the state will seek the death penalty?

WILLIAMS: Right now, state attorney Lawson Lamar says he has not made a decision whether Casey will undergo the death penalty or just life in prison. That still has yet to be determined, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. We`re about to unleash the lawyers. Explain to me, Mark Williams, what happened when police were tailing mom Cindy Anthony with Casey Anthony in the car.

WILLIAMS: Unbelievable. Another bombshell for you. First off, Casey Anthony was at her attorney`s office in Kissimmee. She got into a car driven by her mother, Cindy. They started back on the 417 and got near what they call Boggy Creek Road, which is near the Orlando International Airport, just south of the airport. Cindy pulls underneath an underpass. That`s where Casey gets out, gets into a gray SUV, and that SUV takes off. Undercover agents trailing all this finally pull the SUV over.

We don`t know if she was trying to make the great escape to a nearby county or what, and we don`t know who the driver was of that SUV. Right now, she`s being booked into the Orange County jail here in Orlando. First appearance tomorrow morning 8:30 AM sharp.

GRACE: And what will that appearance be about?

WILLIAMS: Basically, the reading of the charges. Her attorney will be there. She`ll be there. And she`ll be scooted back to her jail cell.

GRACE: I noticed that in the press conference -- you`re seeing video of it right now, Caylee -- Casey Anthony speaking beside her attorney -- to Leonard Padilla, she breaks down in tears. What do you make of it?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I got to tell you, Nancy, that`s the first time. And I haven`t seen it yet because I just got back from a convention up at Lake Tahoe. But that`s the first time that I`ve heard anybody tell me that she broke down and cried during the whole situation that I`ve been involved in. And what it tells me is that reality might be soaking in and maybe Jose might have a shot of reality at this stage of the game.

GRACE: Joining us right now, an exclusive guest this evening, Mark Nejame. He`s joining us from Orlando, Florida. He is the attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, Mr. Nejame a trial veteran. Sir, thank you for being with us.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: Good evening, Nancy.

GRACE: I understand at the outset that you cannot comment on George Anthony`s testimony before the grand jury today. But I would like to hear an explanation as to why your client, Cindy Anthony, changed her daughter out of the car into another car under an overpass.

NEJAME: I`m not sure that`s what happened at all. I`ve -- in all honesty, I was dealing with George throughout the day and I have not spoken to Cindy. I`ve only spoken to George today. It was, as you can imagine, a pretty amazing day emotionally for him, and so that`s where the attention was. And then I spoke to him late afternoon, then simply left the office and have called and have not spoken to either of them later this evening.

GRACE: Mr. Nejame, your client, George Anthony, repeatedly stated that he was not concerned about the grand jury testimony because he would not be testifying against his daughter.

NEJAME: I`m not sure about that, Nancy, because you can surely see that something quite different happened today. The reality of it is, is that George Anthony stood up and was honest and answered every question posed to him. We can, of course, not get into the contents of that. But the reality of it is, is that he realized that this is what he needed to do and he did it, and it took an incredibly courageous act for him to do so. To testify against your own daughter, who`s accused of murdering her daughter, your beloved granddaughter, is an act of courage that I`ve rarely seen or witnessed in my life.

GRACE: Well, Mr. Nejame, it may very well be that him believing he was telling the truth would not be damning. But throughout this ordeal, your client, George Anthony, seemed to be the most realistic and the most cooperative with cops.

Very quickly, back to Jessica D`Onofrio. What did you believe was the crux of Anthony`s testimony to the grand jury, Jessica?

D`ONOFRIO: I`m sorry, I didn`t hear you, Nancy.

GRACE: What was Anthony`s testimony to the grand jury?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, George Anthony was brought here today as the only family member to speak and testify against his daughter. He obviously knew a lot about her behavior, and he knew the last time he saw that child alive. So his testimony probably held a lot of weight today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My focus is always on my granddaughter. It always will be. I love my daughter. I love my wife. I love my son. I want everyone to have a prayer for all of us today, especially for my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a bit of useful information`s been provided by Ms. Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter. And I would point out that the truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You pointed at a third floor window and you said, Well, that`s whatshername`s bedroom and Zanny`s bedroom is right below -- is on the other side. That`s what you told me. So that was a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey has lied to me in the past. And when she`s lied, she`s told me the truth. We`ve always gotten to the bottom of the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The Florida grand jury hands down a multi-count indictment against tot mom Casey Anthony just hours ago, this done behind closed doors, those charges including murder one. In the Florida jurisdiction, that is death penalty-qualified.

The district attorney has not made an announcement whether the death penalty will be sought. There are only a few women in Florida history that have been sentenced to the death penalty. I believe this would make her the 16th woman in Florida history to actually be sentenced to the death penalty, only two having been executed in the past. Here you are seeing some of them.

As we show you those shots, let`s unleash the lawyers, Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, Doug Burns out of New York. What do you make of the charges, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, obviously very serious, but I actually see a glimmer of hope for the defendant in count number three. This is the aggravated manslaughter count. It has two opportunities for the jury to find a lesser offense or for her to plead guilty. Opportunity number one, that the child died by culpable negligence. We`ve talked about that on many shows. Or secondly, that the child died through the neglect or exploitation of another person. These are opportunities for a plea bargain.

GRACE: Explain.

GIUDICE: Well, it`s a lesser offense. It`s not capital one. It`s not going to the chair. It might be 20 to life. It might be less.

GRACE: What about it, Doug Burns?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I agree with Raymond. I mean, everybody`s been unsuccessful in trying to get her to speak. Well, when they sit her down in a room and say, We are seeking to put you to death, potentially, I think her attitude may change. And I think those lesser charges are in there, exactly as Ray said, to get her to explain what really happened.

GRACE: Well, let me see the two defense attorneys right now. Both of you are misleading the viewers. And I say this because you all know that on a murder one charge, without there being an additional indictment, the jury will be given opportunities to find a lesser included offense, such as manslaughter. It didn`t have to be in the indictment.

GIUDICE: Nancy, it`s -- go ahead, Doug. Go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Ray?

BURNS: We`re talking about plea bargaining, not...

GRACE: So? It doesn`t have to be in the indictment for a plea bargain either, Doug Burns.

GIUDICE: Well, but it`s indicative of the fact that the state is already positioning this.

BURNS: Right.

GIUDICE: Number one, they don`t have quite the case they think they do. Or number two, as Doug said...

GRACE: You know what?

GIUDICE: ... they`re sending her and her counsel a message. Come on, we`ve got this set up for your plea.

BURNS: Yes.

GRACE: Let`s see the lawyers again. You know what, you two? I`m not including Nejame in this one because he`s never said this. But you two from the get-go, second verse, same as the first. Every time I threw you a question, no matter what the question was, it was, Blah, blah, blah, there`s not an indictment. Well, today there is an indictment and you`re already saying the state is jockeying for position. You know, it never ends with you two.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Shannon in Florida. Hi, Shannon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) you were talking about, the indictment, how can the grand jury see (INAUDIBLE) due to the manslaughter charge (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: OK, you know what? I couldn`t make out your question. Repeat? OK, can`t hear Shannon in Florida. Let`s go to Marla in Texas. Hi, Marla.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hello, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. My question is, on the dress that they found, like, two days ago, any results on that?

GRACE: Let`s go straight to Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch. Tim, what more can you tell us about the dress that was discovered, a child`s size 6? It was a Disney World Mickey Mouse dress, similar to a dress we know that Caylee once had. It has been sent for testing. What can you tell us about it?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Just what you just said, Nancy. It`s been sent for testing. And of course, it`s going to take some time for results to come back on that dress, but -- you know, that`s all I know about the dress.

GRACE: Tim, are you going to resume searching or not?

MILLER: Nancy, we don`t have a choice. I mean, right now, with the evidence that apparently has came down, it`s -- you know, it looks like it`s apparent there`s a body out there. And for no reason to -- to try to put Casey through no more pain, Caylee`s little body needs to be found. I mean, this little girl needs to be found. The community needs that closure...

GRACE: So is that a yes?

MILLER: Yes. Caylee`s body needs to be found and...

GRACE: So are you going to continue searching?

MILLER: The search, Nancy, will be larger than any search I feel we have ever done in history. Yes. The answer is yes.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What were the feds doing in that grand jury testimony today?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, they kind of broke it down. You had George. You had the cadaver dog. You had the lead investigator and the FBI agent in between. He was second from last.

He was there to testify on all the investigative leads that the FBI has conducted both in Florida, out of Florida, the forensic testing and possibly, quite possibly, some of the polygraph examinations that were given by their people. He was there to talk about anything and any role that the FBI has had, in this -- in this case within cooperation with Orange County.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB. Mark, I noticed that -- in much of the reporting, it was stated that results from the Oak Ridge body farm - - what were the impetus of the state`s final decision to go to the grand jury? Is there more from the body farm than what we know, other than the air samples out of the trunk?

WILLIAMS: Well, if there is, Nancy, they aren`t certainly telling us. They haven`t told us that information whatsoever. I would assume -- again, just an assumption -- that when the body farm did conduct the air quality samples and found that chloroform in the back of Casey`s car, is that there is a lot more to be let out. And I think that will come out during trial, Nancy.

GRACE: Back to Mr. Mark Nejame. He is the attorney for Cindy and George Anthony. At this juncture, do you believe that they will cooperate with police, or are all bets off?

NEJAME: I don`t know why you would make that statement, Nancy. The fact of the matter is, George obviously cooperated with the police. In fact, we didn`t -- we kept it under the radar, but a week ago, they voluntarily, without subpoena, went in and provided DNA samples of saliva and hair. So the fact of the matter is -- the fact of the matter is...

GRACE: You know what? You`re right, Mr. Nejame. Let me rephrase my question.

NEJAME: Thank you.

GRACE: Will Cindy Anthony now cooperate, and Lee Anthony, fully with police?

NEJAME: I don`t represent Lee Anthony. I`ve only met him once, so I can`t address Lee. I can tell you that Cindy Anthony appeared voluntarily a week ago without subpoena and gave hair and saliva samples pursuant to request. So the answer was she did, and I anticipate that will continue.

GRACE: Do you believe they`ll take polygraphs?

NEJAME: Sorry?

GRACE: Will they take polygraphs?

NEJAME: If deemed to be appropriate. But as you well know, they`re inappropriate because Cindy is on medication and they`re not suspects -- and they`re not -- and they`re not...

GRACE: Plenty of witnesses take polygraphs.

(CROSSTALK)

NEJAME: Excuse me. I wasn`t through...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It only took the grand jury about 30 minutes to come to a conclusion on this case. At least 12 people up there believed that there was enough evidence to indict Casey Anthony for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This indictment is not proof of guilt. It is a grand jury finding and accusation. The defendant is cloaked with the presumption of innocence and has a right to a jury trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, you`ve seen the press conference this afternoon where she finally broke down in tears just around the time of her indictment. What do you make of it?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think it`s tempting to think, as Jose (SIC) Padilla suggested, that reality has hit her, but I really doubt that. I mean, she`s shown a complete incapacity to grapple with reality or to even let it bother her in any real way. I think the fact is, her Christmas has been taken away. I think this was a carefully laid plan to get rid of her daughter so she could have a fantastic life and to spend time with her boyfriend and her friends. And now it`s all gone, and that`s what she`s thinking about, I believe, at this moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually went into the car to smell what it smelled like, and in my experience, a smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Derick(ph) jumped up into the trunk, front poles, stuck his head in, backed back up, did the eye contact, and gave me a fine train of alert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He alerted to the odor of human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I`ve just got to tell you what my feelings are. I don`t like how it smells. I`m being straight with you guys. I just don`t -- I don`t like the smell in the car.

C. ANTHONY: There is no evidence that there is a child that is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is the possibility this child is no longer alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that can be concluded.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare over the last several months. She has a missing child. She is also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.

And we just ask that everyone respect that and everyone understand what Casey Anthony is going through.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You know, it`s still amazing to me that throughout this entire ordeal, culminating in today`s grand jury indictment of tot mom Casey Anthony with murder one, plus other charges, never once have we heard her make a public plea for people to help her find her child.

Even today, when she is facing indictment, finally, the tears flow. But never did we see that for her daughter. Now, of course, the defense attorneys tonight will argue that means nothing in a court of law. I beg to disagree.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist out of John J. College of Criminal Justice, and he is hired, on board the Casey Anthony defense team.

Dr. Kobilinsky, do you believe that there is additional evidence from the body farm that cutting-edge crime lab in Oakridge, Tennessee. Do you think that there are additional tests, other than the air samples?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: There are very well may be additional tests. I`m very struck by what you just said.

Lawson Lamar, the state`s attorney, and I quote -- he said the investigation contains intricate forensics that are on the cutting edge of science. And now I think that the defense team really has to look at that science, question the -- reliability, determine whether there are validation studies, and whether there are support by other scientists in the relevant discipline for this technology.

GRACE: Kobe, you know what? Save it for a jury, because I`m sure there`s going to be one. Because the very same arguments have been made about fingerprints, they`ve been made about tire tracks, they`ve been made about touch DNA. They have been made about DNA.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. And remember, Nancy.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE)

KOBILINSKY: Remember, that thing.

GRACE: Naysayers have said no such thing about cadaver dogs, fire dogs, drug dogs, you name it, always a naysayer, saying, it`s not so. So now you`re going to tell me that science against Casey Anthony isn`t so?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you mentioned fingerprints, and remember that the FBI had a case recently, the Madrid train bombing, where three examiners got it wrong. We have to make sure that the science is reliable, because people`s lives.

GRACE: You know what, Kobe, I couldn`t hear you. What type of science was wrong?

KOBILINSKY: I said the fingerprint evidence in the Madrid train bombing case was wrong. The FBI.

GRACE: You mean, where the -- part of the train that blew up?

KOBILINSKY: Yes, that`s correct.

GRACE: Yes, well, I guess so.

KOBILINSKY: In other words.

GRACE: When part of the train has blown up, how can you achieve a perfect fingerprint? But are you telling me, right now, on national TV, that you doubt fingerprint technology?

KOBILINSKY: No.

GRACE: That you don`t believe it`s for real?

KOBILINSKY: No, what I`m saying is that.

GRACE: Oh OK.

KOBILINSKY: . mistakes can be made.

GRACE: Glad to hear that. But mistakes are not what you said before. Before you said the science may not be legitimate.

KOBILINSKY: Well.

GRACE: And so the state has got a problem. Now you`re saying mistakes. So what argument are you going to make, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: Well.

GRACE: Which one? You can`t have your cake and eat it, too.

KOBILINSKY: Well, for the science to be admissible, it has to be deemed reliable and supported by the discipline.

GRACE: Yes, we know that.

KOBILINSKY: Here we may have questions, because it sounds to me like this is cutting-edge science that.

GRACE: So what about your mistake argument? Are you suggesting that the state has made mistakes handling the evidence?

KOBILINSKY: I think anything is possible. We have to look closely at that.

GRACE: So let`s go to the lawyers. Ray Giudice, Doug Burns.

Ray Giudice, just take off your defense hat for just a moment. There was a long, long time, years ago, you were a prosecutor.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.

GRACE: You were an officer of the court as a prosecutor. Now it`s very simple. Every scientific test must be shown to be a reliable test.

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: Yes, no?

GIUDICE: A foundation has to be laid. That`s correct.

GRACE: Now, do you also, like Kobilinsky, doubt the validity of fingerprint tests?

GIUDICE: Not at all. However, here is the doctor`s point. When I first started prosecuting DUIs 25 years ago, they first introduced the breath test machine. You know there were a lot of jurors that didn`t believe a machine could tell you how much alcohol or how many beers that defendant had the night before, and there were a lot of not guilty`s for the first few years and a lot of cases went up to the court of appeals.

Cutting-edge science is issues for reversible error.

GRACE: Doug Burns?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, I disagree with everybody in the sense that we can`t talk about anything. Let`s see the evidence in a courtroom, which is what you always preach, Nancy, and then and only then can we start challenging, questioning and going back and forth, which is what we do for a living.

And, of course, I was also a good guy, a prosecutor, for nine years.

GRACE: Yes, you were.

Let`s go back to the reporters, everyone. Just hours ago, handed down a felony indictment against tot mom Casey Anthony. We are taking your calls live.

To Erica in Florida, hi, Erica.

ERICA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi. I was curious as to the reason why they didn`t put -- say death penalty? Is it because they`re going to use it as a bargaining tool for her to.

GRACE: Erica, that`s very astute of you, Erica in Florida. Now, first of all, at this juncture, which is just the charging phase, no one expects for the state`s attorney to come out and say, yes, we`re going to seek the death penalty.

Very rarely do you get a sudden announcement of that nature. Typically, it will be several days, weeks, maybe, sometimes months, after the initial indictment that that decision is made.

And in many offices, it`s made by a committee, not just the elected D.A. makes the decision. So I would not expect that for some time.

But what about, Mike Brooks, the death penalty and a murder one charge, as a bargaining chip, for her, Casey Anthony, to tell where the body is?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. You know, as Doug said, and as Ray said -- I rarely agree with Doug and Ray, but I have to agree with them on this, they`re going to sit her down.

And when she -- when they start talking about lethal injection and putting her to death, that might strike a little bit of reality for a change in this young lady and maybe -- decide to cooperate with law enforcement.

But you know, we heard from Baez again today, Nancy. It`s all about poor Casey. You know, what about poor Caylee as she lays somewhere, you know, decomposing?

You know, come on, Casey, you`ve got to cooperate, or else you are going to get a needle in your arm. Bottom line.

GRACE: We know -- to Leonard Padilla, I understand what everybody is saying about use the manslaughter charge as a bargaining chip. You know what, Padilla, they had that chance to cut a deal a long time ago.

And the attorney, Jose Baez, got on air, said point blank, oh, no, I don`t want immunity, no limited immunity deal for me. No, no, no. We`re not working a deal.

So in my mind, that train has left the station, and now it`s time to go forward with the prosecution.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I think you`re absolutely correct. And I was just reviewing in the studio here, while you were interviewing the other guests. She is not crying. There isn`t a tear being shed down her face. She is not crying.

She is the same person that was dealing with us when we were back there for those nine days. There is a sadness in her face, but she is definitely not crying.

GRACE: You know, Padilla, another thing tonight, as much as people have lambasted Cindy Anthony, and maybe she`s made some wrong choices, that house must be so quiet and so full of pain tonight.

PADILLA: And let me tell you something else that was discussed many times when Rob Dick was driving her to and from her attorney`s office. The choppers that were overhead, that they were never able to see the cars when they were under the overpasses and that was something that was commented on several times.

GRACE: What more can you tell me about the quick change under the overpass, Jessica D`Onofrio?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, she was leaving her attorney`s office with her mother. They went underneath that overpass, and she switched and got into her bail bondsman`s car. It was a gray SUV.

The bail bondsman`s car takes off with her, and then an unmarked sheriff`s deputy car pulls her over and then takes her to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office, in turn, after that, she goes to the Orange County jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: The grand jury process is a prosecutorial tool, and that is why it`s not something that I would participate in. I`m not allowed to cross examine, which would be a true test of any evidence. The ability to withstand the cross-examination, and I don`t think that`s a process that we wish to engage in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey is one who hasn`t shown any emotion at all.

PADILLA: She acted absolutely like nothing had happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. She went about her business every day. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She hasn`t shown any emotion at the disappearance of her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These chairs aren`t very comfortable?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lay way back.

C. ANTHONY: Exactly. I`m not comfortable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like I`m going to.

C. ANTHONY: (LAUGHTER)

BAEZ: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: She has been crying. Now it`s not bawling, mind you. Her mother immediately goes who took her, who took her and Casey goes, the nanny did. She was kidnapped, mom. And at that point, my sister is done crying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite the charges filed against Miss Anthony today, I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

We, for the sake of Caylee`s grandparents, her loved ones and those on every level who have worked on this case will continue to do everything we possibly can to recover little Caylee.

Speaking directly as a father, a day doesn`t pass where I wish the evidence we have gathered in this case didn`t add up to the painfully obvious. Sadly, I cannot change the facts surrounding this investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A Florida grand jury hands down a murder one charge today against tot mom Casey Anthony, also included other counts. They include a manslaughter charge regarding child abuse. Also lying to cops.

We are taking your calls live. To Deneen in Ohio, hi, Deneen.

DENEEN, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

DENEEN: I was wondering about the strand of hair that was found in the trunk of the car.

GRACE: Yes.

DENEEN: Once they found out that -- or find a match to Caylee for DNA with the strand of hair, is there a test that can determine definitely that the dark band was caused due to death?

GRACE: Yes. There are tests to determine that. But the problem is going to be, and we`ll go to Lawrence Kobilinsky on that, famed forensic scientist.

Kobe, if there is not a nucleus on the hair, in other words, a root.

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: . will they be able to get DNA, or just mitochondrial DNA?

KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. You`re right on target, Nancy. Without a root, the best they can do is mitochondrial DNA. That genetic profile is not unique to anybody. Not.

GRACE: Really? Because they have been using it overseas.

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

GRACE: . with the Red Cross to identify bodies. The U.S. government has used mitochondrial DNA for decades.

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

GRACE: So now you`re telling me that the U.S. government`s use of mitochondrial DNA is in question?

KOBILINSKY: Oh, not at all. It`s just that it is not a unique.

GRACE: Really? Because that`s what it sounded like you were saying.

KOBILINSKY: No, no. Let me make it clear.

GRACE: Please.

KOBILINSKY: It is not a unique profile to an individual. There are other people who have the same mitochondrial genetic profile.

GRACE: Kobe, Kobe, isn`t it true that it`s either going to be the mother or the individual?

KOBILINSKY: Or any maternally related relative.

GRACE: OK.

KOBILINSKY: Even Lee has the same profile.

GRACE: So since the only other maternal relative is going -- could remotely be near that car trunk would be Cindy, Casey.

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: .or Caylee, and we know.

KOBILINSKY: Or Lee. Or Lee. Lee also has the same type.

GRACE: OK. Or Lee. I`ll give you that one.

KOBILINSKY: Right. And there are other.

GRACE: I`d like to finish.

KOBILINSKY: Sorry.

GRACE: That are even remotely associated with Casey Anthony`s car. We know there was a dark band on it, indicating the person is dead.

Let`s see, Casey Anthony, alive, Cindy Anthony, alive. Lee Anthony, alive. That only leaves Caylee, doesn`t it, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: It`s very significant evidence. Number one, we have to prove whose hair it is. And number two, that it is hair that has that banding pattern as a result of decomposition. Yes. You`re right on target with that, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, you`re certainly earning your money, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a famed forensic scientist out of John J. College, and he is on board the Casey Anthony defense team.

I want to go back to the lawyers, Ray Giudice and Doug Burns, but first, I want to find out, to Mark Williams, where is Casey Anthony tonight?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Casey Anthony is back in her old cell block, where she was before she separated from other prisoners at the Orange County Jail.

Of course, she was booked in there probably within the past hour or so. And that`s where she`ll be spending the night until tomorrow`s first appearance.

GRACE: Natisha, you -- Natisha Lance is with us, our producer, is joining us there at the jail. Explain to me the procedure she went through after she was pulled over on the side of the road and arrested today.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: After she was pulled over, Nancy, she was taken to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office. After that, she was brought to the jail where we are right now. She went into the Sally Port when she arrived here at the jail.

There were a few protesters here, as well as some supporters. And tonight she is behind bars, just as Mark William said.

GRACE: Does she have a cell mate? Is she in isolation? What wing is she on?

LANCE: At this point, it seems as if she will be in protective custody once again, as she was last time. So she will be isolated from any other inmates. And we are awaiting her booking photo to come out if it hasn`t already come out and we will see her at her initial appearance tomorrow morning.

GRACE: With me, everyone, exclusively joining us tonight, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Mr. Mark Nejame. He is a veteran trial lawyer, and he is defending them in any capacity needed.

Mr. Nejame, do you believe that the family, George and Cindy Anthony, prepared themselves, mentally, emotionally, for this day? Or was it easier for them to believe this day was not going to happen?

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: I think they were as well prepared as any parents could be, that their daughter may be indicted for first-degree murder. It`s something that none of us are prepared fully in life.

There`s no rule book or playbook on this. They knew that it was a probability. We must remember that an indictment is only a charge. A lot of people are talking like there`s already a conviction.

GRACE: It`s true.

NEJAME: There is a charge. And it simply means that there`s been probable cause. And now the state attorney`s office has to take this from start to finish.

GRACE: Well, Mr. Nejame, I know that many people believe, I and others, have been hard on tot mom Casey Anthony, but our sympathies are with the family.

I want to go to Richard Grund, the former fiance, tot mom. What is your family`s response to the indictment tonight, sir?

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: It`s tough. Because we loved Casey, we still do. We love Caylee. You know, I`m just hoping that the seriousness of this will get the community to calm down and everybody to realize that we`re real people.

George and Cindy and Lee, they`re real people. They`re all real people, we`re all real people. And we hurt right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Back to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, there is talk that Baez may actually have to step down from taking the case to trial?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: There`s some talk about that, because, as I understand it, you have to have five years as an attorney at least to be able to defend this kind of a case.

We also hear that Casey Anthony may actually defend herself. This from Jose Baez`s PR firm, saying that she would have access to state funds to get her some investigators if she did so.

GRACE: You know, to Raymond Giudice, Doug Burns, I do not believe that any court in this country would allow a death penalty, Raymond, to go forward per se with council defending themselves.

GIUDICE: That`s right, Nancy. They don`t want to try the case.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) half.

GIUDICE: . twice.

GRACE: No, yes, appeal, reverse, back down.

GIUDICE: Right. Right back.

GRACE: And -- you`re dead on.

Doug Burns, as far as having to have a certain degree of experience at trial for a death penalty case, you`re darn right.

BURNS: Right. That`s to be lead counsel, Nancy. So what everybody is saying is that he`ll have to step aside as lead council. But he can continue to be on the case.

GRACE: Yes. He could be second chair.

BURNS: Right. Exactly.

GRACE: But to do a capital case, good lord, you got to have.

BURNS: Absolutely.

GRACE: . many, many trials under your belt and not just as a gofer. You`ve got to be lead council on those cases in order to go forward.

Everyone, recap. Mom Casey Anthony just indicted by a Florida grand jury. Charges, murder one, plus other counts. Tomorrow morning, 8:30 a.m. she is back in court. We will bring you the very latest.

But I want to stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Jordan Haerter, just 19, Sag Harbor, New York, killed in Iraq. Lost his life at a checkpoint saving fellow troops and Iraqi officers.

Awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, Iraqi Campaign Medal. Loved solo flights, paintball, driving a Dodge pickup on the beach. Favorite movie, "Blackhawk Down." Dreamed of being a cop.

Leaves behind parents, Christian and Joan, girlfriend, Nicole.

Jordan Haerter, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern and until then, good night, friends.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/14/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Judge Denies Bond for Casey Anthony

Aired October 15, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court on murder one charges after a Florida grand jury hands down a seven-count indictment -- murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter, and of course, lying to police. The case does qualify for the Florida death penalty, death by needle, lethal injection. The district attorney yet to make that announcement. This amid reports new forensic evidence discovered in mom Casey`s car trunk. What is it?

Police using cell phone triangulation to narrow down the exact location mom Casey may have disposed of little Caylee. Even in the face of murder one charges, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony insisting little Caylee is alive, claiming mom Casey will save what really happened for the courtroom. They say they`ll go on with their own search for Caylee. And exclusive, the man mom Casey claimed introduced her to Zenaida Gonzalez, accused of kidnapping Caylee and then exonerated, is with us live, tonight. Where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to jail for Casey. She faced a judge in Orlando this morning on first degree murder and other charges in the case of her 3-year-old daughter`s disappearance. It took the judge less than a minute to decide on her bond.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey was arrested shortly after yesterday`s grand jury indictment, and her father, George Anthony, testified against her before that panel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I don`t get it. As I`m walking, I just get back to where the passenger rear taillight is to her car, she throws open the trunk, she said, Here`s your F-ing cans. I got a little verbal...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go in the trunk.

GEORGE ANTHONY: She don`t want me going in the trunk of the car. I made a report to the Orange County sheriff`s department. Now you`ve got the chance. Why do you have them? Well, I`ve been driving back and forth to Tampa to see Zanny? And I`m, like, Wait a second. You`re supposed working, but now you`re in Tampa. This don`t make no sense to me. And I said, Listen, I`m not going to deal with this right now. But where`s Caylee? What`s going on? You know, I believe I need to know. I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t like the smell?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m being straight and honest.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Anthony disappeared in June, but she wasn`t reported missing until a month later. Originally, her mother told police she was taken by her nanny. Since then, she`s changed her story several times and none of them has panned out with authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know stuff`s got to come out. That`s the way it is. I`m not going to hold back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, the tot mom in court just hours ago on charges of murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This morning, Casey Anthony made her first court appearance on murder charges. The mother of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony did not enter a plea, and the judge refused bond during those proceedings, which took about a minute-and-a-half. She`s accused of killing her daughter, even though the little girl`s body hasn`t been found.

GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though George Anthony`s daughter, Casey, is now charged with killing her toddler, the grandfather believes Caylee will be back in his arms.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just yesterday, George testified under oath before a grand jury, the same grand jury that indicted his daughter for murder. But he does not believe his courtroom testimony hurt Casey, saying criminal charges were inevitable.

GEORGE ANTHONY: A few weeks ago, almost day one or day two, we knew what was going to happen. I mean, that`s pretty self-evident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite testifying against her, George asserts that Casey is a good mother who would never harm her child.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m going to stand alongside my daughter, no matter what.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And George says he`s clinging to hope that Caylee is OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I still believe in my heart, and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter is still out there, and she is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These people that are out there that we feel might have been involved in something -- and again, that`s speculation on my part. Yes, they`re being watched. They might not -- they`re being watched.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tot mom Casey Anthony in court just hours ago, answering up on felony charges handed down by a secret grand jury, multiple counts, including murder one. That murder charge not outlining the mode of murder. Police yet to discover the remains of little Caylee.

Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams at WNDB Newsradio. Mark, what`s the latest? What happened in court?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, it was a cut and dried thing, 30 seconds in the courtroom. Basically, Casey Anthony, along with Jose Baez, her attorney, appeared before a judge. All of a sudden, they -- the judge asked her, Are you Casey Anthony? She replied, Yes. He read the charges against her. He said the capital murder charge is non-bailable. And she did not make any plea, and she was hustled back to her jail cell, which is only 12.5 by 8 by 7 feet.

GRACE: OK. Yes or no, mark Williams. Did the defense attorney file a motion for speedy trial out loud in court today?

WILLIAMS: Not that we know of. It was a very, very, very quick session, like I said, only 30 seconds or so.

GRACE: Well, we would have known if he said that in court today? Wasn`t the courtroom open? Was there a motion filed orally in court, to your knowledge?

WILLIAMS: Most of us saw it on video that`s supplied by the Orange County judicial system here.

GRACE: Yes, no. Is there a motion for speedy trial? Did you hear Baez make the motion?

WILLIAMS: I did not hear Baez make that motion.

GRACE: OK. To Nikki Pierce, WDBO. Did you hear him make the motion?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: No, I did not hear him make the motion for a speedy trial.

GRACE: OK, Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the jail. Do we know that such a motion has been filed?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, he did not make any motion this morning out loud in court.

GRACE: OK. Well, that really beats all. Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining us tonight out of New York, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney out of Atlanta Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, veteran trial lawyer also joining us out of New York. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Between the hair and the air, this woman could get the chair. I mean, there`s some real evidence in this case the defense team is going to have a hard time refuting. There was hair found in the trunk of her car. That hair allegedly has bands that would show the decomposition due to death. There is air evidence from the body farm in Tennessee. There is some real evidence that there was a death, and that`s probably Caylee.

GRACE: To defense attorneys Renee Rockwell and Alan Ripka. Renee, I`ve been hearing on and on, second verse, same as the first, over and over and over, We`ll take this to trial, we`ll put the state to the test. Where`s the motion for speedy trial? I heard Baez stating in a press conference, We want a quick trial. Where`s the motion? You don`t even have to write it down. You can stand in open court in practically every jurisdiction of this country and say, I demand under the Constitution a demand for speedy trial, right now. I want my trial within six months. Put up or shut up. Didn`t happen. Why?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It didn`t happen, Nancy. I don`t think he needs to commit now. But I think he is probably waiting to see if this is going to be a death penalty case strategy, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. In my mind, Alan Ripka, that would make it even more necessary to file the demand right now.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree. First of all, he`s got to protect his client, and he should have did it right then and then to start the clock ticking. Furthermore, let`s hope this guy Baez can handle this kind of case. You need experience in capital murder cases, and he may not be the right one for the job.

GRACE: You know, speaking of, it`s my understanding -- back out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Mark, he did file today a notice of appearance, which says to me he`s going forward as a trial lawyer on this case.

WILLIAMS: Yes, he is. He is going forward with it. They have, like, 180, 190 days to get the trial under way. But here`s the big deal, is that he is not qualified, according to Florida judicial law, to try this case in court. He has only been an attorney for the past three years, and this is not -- he`s got -- he`s never served as co-counsel in a -- in a case.

GRACE: So Mark Williams, when you say has been practicing law for three years, what has he been doing? What is his trial experience?

WILLIAMS: Well, just this past April, he defended a gentleman in Lake County, which is just outside of Orlando, on a murder charge. He -- the gentleman was eventually convicted, so he lost that case. Also...

GRACE: Well, was he lead counsel? Was he first chair?

WILLIAMS: I couldn`t tell you that, Nancy, because I was not that familiar with the case. But he has had some success. A Kissimmee mayor by the name of George Gant (ph), who`s a doctor, was accused of some, how shall we say this, funny business with some patients. He was exonerated in that. And then he also in 2006...

GRACE: Did he -- hey, Mark, Mark, Mark, did Baez take that to a jury trial?

WILLIAMS: I think that was settled right out of court.

GRACE: OK. Settlement. I`m not impressed. I want to find out how many trials this guy has had because I`m telling you -- I`m not saying he`s a bad lawyer. I`m not saying that at all. Not at all. But I am saying there`s a very big difference, Mark Williams, in settling a case and striking a jury and going to trial on a death penalty case. In fact, Mark Williams, it is such a vast difference that the law in most jurisdictions requires the lawyer to have quite a bit of litigation, courtroom litigation. I`m not talking about depositions, and -- and filling out forms, courtroom experience. You`ve got somebody`s life in your hands.

Speaking of a life in your hands, to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who first put up the bond for mom Casey Anthony. We understand there may be new blockbuster evidence found related to the car in a plastic bag?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I think -- I think what they`ve got is, they`ve got the bag that the gentleman at the yard threw over the fence, and then one of the detectives, God bless him, went over there that night and retrieved the bag. And they have found body evidence on the outside of the bag, which had pizza leftovers on the inside. And on the outside, there was maggots. And I think your Dr. Kobilinsky would tell you that maggots would not -- I don`t believe feed on pizza. But on the outside of the bag, there were maggots.

GRACE: Do we know anything about fluids from a body, Leonard?

PADILLA: Yes, there were body fluids on the outside of the bag, yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that there is an election going on. And I understand that those days are numbered. And I understand that Casey Anthony is public enemy number one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: From day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer. She is not a murderer.

CINDY ANTHONY: I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.

I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten, you know -- she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

I lost my granddaughter. I don`t even care where Casey was at. I still don`t care where Casey`s at. All I want is Caylee back. Do you understand that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live today. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court just hours ago, answering up on formal grand jury charges, including murder one. That murder count does not explain the state`s theory as to how little Caylee died. As searches resume in the Orlando area, we are waiting to find out whether blockbuster evidence has surfaced, allegedly coming out of the car trunk of mom Casey Anthony.

Very quickly, back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. You state that you have learned that bodily fluids may be on the back of a plastic bag found in the trunk.

PADILLA: That`s correct. The pizza was purchased the AM of the 19th. And instead of being dumped in the dumpster the following day, it was placed in the trunk of the car. The speculation is, it was placed there to mask what was already starting to be an odor in the trunk of the car. So that`s the speculation. But there was definitely body fluids on the outside of the bag.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid member of the defense team for tot mom Casey Anthony. Lawrence Kobilinsky, if bodily fluids were found in the trunk, that should be able to be connected to the deceased.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, you know, finding bodily -- what we do in serology is we first identify what the fluid is, and then we determine its origin, which involves DNA testing. So the first step is, How do you determine if it is truly bodily fluids or not? I think that`s an issue. As far as blowflies laying eggs, I don`t think you`re going to develop maggots that quickly.

GRACE: I`m asking you only about the fluid. That`s all I`m asking you.

KOBILINSKY: Again, I think finding the amino acids...

GRACE: Koby (ph), you know, I`m very surprised because since you`ve been hired to be the defense consultant on this case, you -- your whole theories regarding forensics have changed.

KOBILINSKY: Oh, not at all. Absolutely not.

GRACE: You know very well, as I do, that when a body begins to decompose, the body emits fluids and those fluids will have DNA in them.

KOBILINSKY: That is correct. And animals will decompose. They will secrete fluids...

GRACE: What are you talking about? Animals? I`m asking you a point- blank question.

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

GRACE: If a body is decomposing and there are bodily fluids, they should be able to be traced through DNA. That`s a yes/no answer.

KOBILINSKY: It depends how degraded the DNA is.

GRACE: OK. You know, you`re going off into animals and degradation and blowflies. You know what? I`ll be right back with you.

Out to the lines. June in Florida. Hi, June.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Jose Baez, in his news conference on Monday, he said with Casey right by his side how upset she was about her missing child. This woman has cried twice, the first time when she went to jail, and on Monday, when she knew she was going back to jail. I lost my son, and all I did was cry and cry and just totally lost it.

GRACE: You know, June in Florida, for those of us that have been crime victims and/or lost someone very dear to us, this lack of emotion has been unfathomable. What about it Caryn Stark -- Dr. Stark joining us out of New York, psychologist, go ahead.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, the truth of the matter is, everyone keeps looking at her as a mother, and she is much more of a monster. This is what a sociopathic person is like. She cannot feel empathy. That is not in her nature. She doesn`t have the ability, so how could she possibly cry? She can party because she can ignore what`s going on.

GRACE: Let`s go to our special guest joining us tonight. Jeff Hopkins is with us. And according to mom Casey Anthony, Hopkins introduced her to Zenaida Gonzalez, the nanny that stole her child. Mr. Hopkins, thank you for being with us.

JEFF HOPKINS, ALLEGEDLY INTRODUCED CASEY TO BABY-SITTER ZENAIDA: Thank you. Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Mr. Hopkins, what did you think when you learned that somehow you had gotten into the middle of a murder investigation?

HOPKINS: Well, my initial reaction there was definitely shock. I still had no clue what was going on until, of course, a few days later, when a detective showed up at my house.

GRACE: When did you first learn you had gotten involved?

HOPKINS: I assume it was the night that Cindy Anthony had called 911 because when the cops were at their house, I received a phone call from Lee Anthony, her brother, telling me that Casey said that she had been missing -- or Caylee had been missing for about 30 days. And she said that she had taken a trip or went on a trip to Jacksonville with Jeff Hopkins. And I, you know, informed them that maybe there was a different one at the time, you know, because it wasn`t me for sure.

GRACE: So that wasn`t you in the car with Casey Anthony?

HOPKINS: No.

GRACE: Did you ever know her? Did you guys work at the same place?

HOPKINS: Well, I did work at Universal. I didn`t work there after the year 2002. I`m not sure when she started, and I know she ended in around 2006. But we never did work together, actually.

GRACE: Did you ever know each other?

HOPKINS: We did know each other.

GRACE: How?

HOPKINS: We actually -- through elementary, middle and high school. We went to the same school here.

GRACE: So you did not know her through Universal? You knew her through going to school with her?

HOPKINS: Through going to school, yes.

GRACE: Did you ever know Zenaida Gonzalez?

HOPKINS: No, I don`t know who that is.

GRACE: Did Zenaida Gonzalez ever baby-sit your children?

HOPKINS: I have no children, Nancy.

GRACE: So her story becomes more and more fantastic. Do you expect that you will be a witness at trial?

HOPKINS: Yes.

GRACE: Why do you think that?

HOPKINS: Because I was told so by the detective.

GRACE: Long story short, after your ordeal with the justice system, what do you believe about little Caylee? Where is she?

HOPKINS: I have no idea where she is. And as far as, you know...

GRACE: When was the last time you actually spoke to Casey Anthony?

HOPKINS: July. I saw her at the Ale House.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll all be right back. But as we go to break, it is National Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Tonight, the Woman`s Personal Health Resource. It was founded nine years by an oncology nurse, Barbara, whose mom battled cancer and struggled with finding wigs and everything else she needed during her plight. The Woman`s Personal Resource provides products to help breast cancer patients -- skin care, scarves, turbans, exercise wear, lounge wear, swimsuits, all for mastectomy, lumpectomy, even recent surgery patients. If this battle touches your life, go to Womanspersonalhealth.com, or CNN.com/nancygrace. Together, we can win this battle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! I need to find her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Caylee`s little body needs to be found. This search will be larger than any search I feel we have ever done in history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Right now, mom Casey Anthony behind bars on murder one charges. Today she was in court, answering up on the grand jury indictment just handed down yesterday.

Back to Natisha Lance, standing by at the Orlando, Florida jail. Tell me about her jail cell and her day today.

LANCE: Her jail cell, Nancy, is an 8 by 10-foot cell. It has plexiglass on one side. All the other walls are concrete, so she doesn`t have too much privacy. She has a toilet. She`s in protective custody once again, just as before. Her day today very limited. She gets one hour of free time to do whatever she wants. And in that hour of time, she is able to use -- take a shower or go into the commissary.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: This is going to be very hard for me to do.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George testified under oath before a grand jury, the same grand jury that indicted his daughter for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: State attorney, Lawson Lamar, was able to convince at least 12 of the 19 jurors that the 22-year-old mother should be charged with capital murder for allegedly killing her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: George answered all questions directly and honestly, and just did what, I think, no human being could ever be prepared to do.

G. ANTHONY: My focus is always on my granddaughter, and it always will be. No matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Casey Anthony, set to be the 17th woman in Florida history against whom the state seeks the death penalty. The state has not made that announcement at this point.

The D.A. has some time to do that, but after screaming about wanting justice in court, Baez, the defense attorney, failed to ask for a motion for speedy trial today. That would ensure that the state had to take this case to trial in just a few months. No building the case over time.

To Bill Majeski, former NYPD detective with Majeski Associates -- Bill, a speedy trial demand can really throw the wrench in the works for the state. If they were planning on developing the evidence some more, oh no, there won`t be any of that. They`ve got to go straight to trial.

BILL MAJESKI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE MAJESKI ASSOCIATE, INC.: Well, this is true, but the thing is, I think the police did an outstanding job on this investigation. They kept a lot of things close to the vest, they had a lot of information very early on, and what they did is they slowly built their case until they were able to go into court and get a sound, solid indictment.

Now from this juncture forward, what the police have to do is they have to refortify the investigation that they`ve already done, and clearly at the top of their list is finding the body. And I think that they`ll eventually do that.

And one of the things -- another thing about the -- not asking for a speedy trial. It`s a good possibility that the defense attorney may be looking to make some kind of a deal to try to take the death penalty off the table.

GRACE: Wise, although the state has not announced for the death penalty.

As we were discussing earlier -- out to Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka -- so far in the entire Florida history, only 16 women have had the death penalty sought against them.

Alan Ripka, what`s the likelihood that that will happen in this case?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in this particular case, I think the likelihood is very high. I think that a case that has had so much media attention, and when you`re dealing with a little girl in this particular case, I think the state is going to be pressured to go after her, because the public does not like her very much.

GRACE: What about it, Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I will agree with that. But I will say one thing. If the state is seeking the death penalty, they`re going to have a lot harder time getting a conviction, Nancy.

GRACE: Renee, I`m sure you`re familiar with the proceedings of a death penalty. And as you know, it`s a bifurcated trial. There is a two- prong trial, which the jury will understand.

There`s the guilt/innocence phase and then if there is a guilty on murder one, with circumstances, then the state proceeds to a death penalty phase. They will have it explained to them that they can find guilty without the death penalty.

But I understand what you`re saying, when death penalty is on the table, all the stakes go up.

Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The people of the state of Florida are outraged. They were outraged when this mother waited 31 days to report missing. And she only reported missing.

GRACE: Well, you heard Ripka blaming it on the media, right?

MOSS: Oh, come on! This was all, all Casey from day one.

GRACE: You know, I noticed, Mark Williams, in court today, there was a completely different attire, a whole look. Mom Casey Anthony looked like a paralegal.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes. And that started almost yesterday, when she was arrested. She had glasses on, and she had a nice blouse on when she was put in handcuffs. And, yes, she looked like a scholarly individual, right off the bat.

GRACE: So she`s getting a makeover. You know what? Fine. Everybody gets a makeover when they have to go to court. We also learn the truth behind that Mickey Mouse dress from Disney World we thought may be a lead in the case that was discovered by Texas Equusearch.

What is the truth behind that, Nikki Pierce?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, Cindy Anthony appeared on national television this morning and brought Caylee`s dress that was similar to the one that was found and said this is Caylee`s dress. The other one does not belong to Caylee.

GRACE: There is Miss Anthony on the "Today" show. She is holding up little Caylee`s Mickey Mouse dress, so clearly the one that was discovered, a child size 6, is not going to be a lead in this case.

Straight back out to Mark Williams, the theory of new evidence, where are we learning that? Why do we believe that there is new forensic evidence out of the car trunk?

WILLIAMS: Well, apparently the CSI -- the crime scene investigators found this bag, and it apparently contains the bodily fluids of little Caylee, and it was initially found, of course, or was probably in the back end of -- in the trunk area of Casey`s car.

GRACE: To Gina in North Carolina, hi, Gina.

GINA, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

GINA: OK, I do have a comment first and then a question.

GRACE: OK.

GINA: My comment is that if we just gave her the benefit of the doubt for one second.

GRACE: OK.

GINA: The child has not been kidnapped, there has been no ran some demand. It`s -- and I think that if anybody in the whole United States, Florida, wherever, did have this baby, with everything going on here, they would have turned that baby in. Nobody would keep that baby with all of this going on.

And my question is, does anybody think that possibly she may have confided in Lee after she got out of jail? He seems to be, you know, very quiet these days, you know, in the back ground.

GRACE: That`s an excellent question, Gina in North Carolina.

Leonard Padilla, what about it? You have seen the family dynamic.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Yes, absolutely, and I`m telling you -- let me throw something in here, you know, talking about the gentleman, Hopkins.

One night, when I was in the residence, and I was talking about this Hopkins having introduced Zenaida to her. Cindy and Lee both jointly and at about the same time said, "oh, that`s another Hopkins. He`s got a boy named Zack."

And the reason this stuck in my mind is because I have a nephew named Zack. And I thought, well, that`s rather strange. All of a sudden we have two Hopkins, same age at the same time involved in the same situation.

I thought that was ludicrous but at the time they just damn near convinced me that there was two Hopkins. And it was Lee and Cindy, and they knew at that time that there was not two Hopkins.

GRACE: You are seeing shots of little Caylee. The Anthonys insisting she is still alive. And they will continue their search for her.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEREDITH VIEIRA, "TODAY" SHOW HOST: Have you considered the possibility, as difficult as it may be, that your daughter killed her child? Your grandchild?

CINDY ANTHONY, CINDY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: You know, Meredith, I know my daughter, I know my daughter`s relationship with Caylee, and I know that there is no -- nothing in this world that could make me believe that Casey did anything to Caylee.

There has never been any -- any child neglect, child abuse, or anything. This young lady loves her child more than I love Casey. I tell you that right now. And my love for Casey is stronger every day. My love for my granddaughter is stronger every day. And I know that Caylee is alive.

It will be heard out in the courtroom, and people will understand why her behaviors were such, and that`s all I can say right now.

I know that, you know, in my heart that we are going to find Caylee before this trial does make place. And we are hoping for a speedy trial, because yesterday, people were unable to hear the evidence that we have that proves that, you know, the -- just how circumstantial evidence.

The reason -- there`s reasons why there has been no body been found. You know there`s reports that Caylee`s dress was found at the airport. This is Caylee`s dress that was in her closet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Miss Anthony on NBC`s "Today" show. They are insisting little Caylee is still alive, claiming that she may be in Puerto Rico, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia, and let me think where else? Also there in Florida.

To Mark Williams with WNDB, on the "Today" show, she referred to evidence that little Caylee is still alive. What evidence is that?

WILLIAMS: She gets -- apparently, the Anthonys still get tips from outsiders and with the Caylee sightings and everything else, you`ve documented that just a couple minutes ago.

She`s even gone on Univision Television here in Orlando, looking for Caylee in Puerto Rico, putting a -- putting the word out, reaching out in that island nation down there, to try and find little Caylee.

But they get these tips, they say, and she says, they`re going to investigate them.

GRACE: I wish they were sharing those tips with the media.

Everyone, quickly, we`re taking your calls live.

To case alert, the search for a missing Michigan woman who`s vanished into thin air. 41-year-old Vernetta Macklin-Jordan last seen September 18th, boarding a bus on the Linwood route, Detroit. Since then, her husband, son, entire family cannot contact her.

Please, take a look at this lovely lady. Her family is waiting. If you have information, call Detroit police, 313-596-2200.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: Don`t paint a bad picture of this family. Emotions just take over sometimes. You believe your child, you put faith in them and everything, you know?

I wouldn`t wish this on anyone. This is a tough day for us today. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for whatever it might be. It`s hard. It`s quiet. The house is just too quiet.

Whenever these sightings come through and photos are taken of a child that could possibly be my granddaughter, I get excited and my hopes are up there. And if it`s not, they get to (INAUDIBLE) a little bit.

My focus is always on my granddaughter and always will be. I love my daughter, I love my wife, I love my son.

I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, mom Casey Anthony behind bars tonight for her second night behind bars after being charged by a grand jury in felony charges. Murder one being the lead charge. The state carefully not outlining the mode of death alleged in little Caylee Anthony`s death.

To Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, Susan Moss -- Susan Moss, is that unusual for the state not to lay out in the indictment the manner of death?

MOSS: It -- isn`t unusual. As long as they meet a particular level of burden of proof, which is not beyond a reasonable doubt, then they have done their job. Their job only is to get that indictment which they were successful doing.

GRACE: Well, to Renee and Alan -- first to you, Alan, I don`t find it unusual at all, because when a body has been destroyed, very often, you don`t know the cause of death. The state doesn`t necessarily have to prove the cause of death.

RIPKA: That`s right, Nancy. In fact, they can use circumstantial evidence, they may have an admission from a defendant, witnesses, things like that, that may help them out. But it`s not an element of the crime to prove exactly how somebody was murdered.

GRACE: Renee, agree or disagree?

ROCKWELL: I agree with that. But the thing that I do find interesting -- and I`m looking at the indictment -- that the state set out a 31-day period within which they say that she committed a pre-meditated murder.

GRACE: Right.

ROCKWELL: It`s just going to be interesting to me, Nancy, how it lays out. It`s still a little early for us to discuss.

GRACE: Well, Renee, again, that is not unusual. I have tried, myself, many, many cases, particularly cases involving children that do not go by calendar days, the way you and I do, where you give a time range as to the time of the offense. That`s not unusual at all.

Why do you say that`s unusual?

ROCKWELL: Well, it`s unusual because at some point they`re going to have to put it up and say, this is our theory, this is what she did.

GRACE: But they don`t ever have to prove a specific date. That`s not required under law.

ROCKWELL: But they`re going to have to say that she did something on some particular day. And that`s my theory.

GRACE: No. They do not have to state a particular day.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, when they go to trial, and try her for potentially the death penalty, they are going to have to have some theories.

GRACE: They do not have to name a particular day. That is not the law.

ROCKWELL: I`m not talking the day.

GRACE: Alan Ripka, agree -- that`s what we`re talking about, the day.

ROCKWELL: OK.

RIPKA: Nancy, I agree with you. They do not have to name a date. In fact, in this particular case, they were well aware of when they believed the child was killed.

GRACE: They are.

RIPKA: In fact, they want a period of time and that`s why they set out what they did and that`s what they intend to prove. But I agree with you, they do not have to give a particular date and time.

GRACE: But in a sense, Susan Moss, I agree with the gist, not the technicalities, of what Rockwell is saying. The gist is, when you go to a jury, you better have a theory, a definite theory, about what you believe happened.

ROCKWELL: You can`t just say the child died.

GRACE: Susan?

MOSS: Absolutely. The jury wants to hear a theory, they want to hear a story, and they want to understand why and when this happened. You don`t have to point to a particular day and time, but you have to make it reasonable and believable.

GRACE: We also learned that the possibility of a get-away attempt yesterday was not correct. In fact, seemingly -- tell me if I`m right, Nikki Piece with WDBO -- Cindy and Kelly Anthony were actually just trying to avoid being photographed or videoed turning themselves in?

PIERCE: As I understand.

GRACE: Turn in?

PIERCE: Yes, I understand there was a bit of a chase between local news outlet and Casey and Cindy in Cindy`s car. And so they pulled a little bit of a switcharoo and put her in the bail bondsman`s car under an overpass and a no-fly zone.

GRACE: Well, you know what?

PIERCE: . so the helicopters couldn`t see.

GRACE: What that got them was the allegations that they were trying a get-away attempt. That didn`t help anything.

We are taking your calls, to Theresa in Colorado. Hi, Theresa.

THERESA, COLORADO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is, on a positive note, and there doesn`t seem to be many, if someone had little Caylee, could they drop her off at any fire station and avoid prosecution? Even in Puerto Rico?

GRACE: That`s a toughie. What about it, Susan Moss?

MOSS: No. This is not a safe-haven type of scenario. But they should do it, anyway. I mean, everyone, if there is a chance of this little girl is alive, everyone wants to see her safe.

GRACE: To Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York, the caller was correct. The only times we have ever seen any seen any emotion whatsoever from tot mom Casey Anthony is when she was in court getting a dressing down by about being a neglectful mom, and when the grand jury is meeting, at that moment, to indict her on murder one.

What does that say to you? This has been going on for months now.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s the narcissistic part of her personality, Nancy. Anybody who was just like this woman will not be crying over her daughter. She`s crying over herself. So you will see her in court starting to be upset because she`s going to be in trouble.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John J. College, criminal justice, and a paid member of the Casey Anthony defense team, what will your role be?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I think I`m there to help the defense with the analysis of the science to advice.

GRACE: When will you see the evidence?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I -- that`s not clear at this point. But I certainly will be there to look at all the different types of science and determine whether it is valid and reliable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I wish this person or persons who had her would call up and say, CNN, I have this little girl. I believe she`s the little girl who`s missing from Orlando, Florida.

Do you know what kind of story that would be?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Mom Casey Anthony in court today.

Back to Natisha Lance standing by at the jail in Orlando, what was the purpose of her being in court this morning?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it was her initial appearance, Nancy. So that was the time where hen she would be read the charges that against her and she would be able to reply if she understood these charges or not.

GRACE: And she said?

LANCE: She said yes.

GRACE: Were -- was each charge read out loud?

LANCE: Yes, they were.

GRACE: All seven of them?

LANCE: All seven charges were read out loud.

GRACE: Who read them? Who read them?

LANCE: The judge presiding over the case read them. Casey actually appeared from the jail here. They did not transport her to the court. She appeared over video appearance with her attorney as well as an associate of her attorney who has not been named at this time.

But as they left the courtroom, they did not have anything to say.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army First Lieutenant Thomas Brown, 26, Burke, Virginia, killed in Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, and Combat Infantry badge.

A George Mason University grad. Dreamed of making a difference. And the family trip to the Caribbean. He told relatives, if he lost his life, he wanted donations to go to St. Jude`s Children`s Hospital instead of family.

Love the Red Sox, rescuing animals. His latest, a cat named Batman. Leaves behind grieving mom Carol, twin the brother Timothy, a Border Patrol agent.

Thomas Brown, American hero.

I want to thank you to all our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And a big thanks to my old court reporter Donna Keeble who saw our show and has donated money to Texas Equusearch and their search for little Caylee.

I hope others join her.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/15/ng.01.html

Video of Jeff http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/10/16/ng.casey.speaks.cnn

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Murder Case Developments

Aired October 16, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The tot mom defense spokesperson goes on national TV and refers to little Caylee`s death. Translation? Even the defense mouthpiece slips up and announces 3-year-old Caylee is dead. This while mom Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy insist little Caylee was kidnapped and is still alive. The defense now, as usual, blaming the media.

Mom Casey facing formal charges, including murder one. Without a body, prosecutors building a case against tot mom Casey with state-of-the- art forensics and reams of mom Casey`s lies, but will it stick? The DA yet to announce if the Florida death penalty will be sought. Mom Casey Anthony in protective custody behind bars tonight. The judge orders forensic testing will go forward, squashing the defense demand that all testing stop immediately, as Texas Equusearch pulls out of Orlando after no cooperation with the Anthony family. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony, the mother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony, is facing first-degree murder charges in the disappearance and presumed death of her little girl, Caylee. Todd Black, the spokesman for Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, and his firm had made mention of little Caylee and he said in there that we`re dealing with the loss of a life of a little girl. And here`s what he has to say concerning that very comment, releasing a statement to us, saying that remark is being taken out of context. Our position remains clear that Caylee is still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive, and we`re actively looking for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Marie Anthony is charged with first-degree murder of the death of her child. So for him to say that this case is about the death of a child or what will happen to Casey isn`t exactly an inaccurate statement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Vegas police on high alert, a 6-year-old little boy in extreme danger, kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family found bound and left behind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger, who was kidnapped at gunpoint. Police say three male suspects came to the boy`s home in the early morning Wednesday and got in by posing as police officers. That`s when police say they tied and gagged Cole`s mother and the mother`s friend and began searching the apartment for money. When there was no money to be found, the suspects kidnapped little Cole. Police are desperate to find Cole and are concerned for his safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the Amber Alert went out and as soon as this photograph was received at the center, we did a 90-mile radius of every motel, hotel, truck stop, trucking company, everybody that`s dispatched by computer, like trucking companies, mass transit kind of thing. That child`s photo was given to all of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities in southern California, New Mexico and Arizona have all been alerted to the kidnapping, with some suggestion the kidnappers may take the child to Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We hear Cindy all the time now. Even still, just days ago and just yesterday, you know, still -- sounds like she`s still drinking the Casey Kool-Aid. But I think George has finally said, you know, Enough is enough here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very serious case involving not just the loss of the life of this little girl but the loss of whatever`s going happen with Casey Anthony. And for a gentleman to sit on a show, on a national show, and make a remark like Caylee -- what did he call it, cocktail, or whatever he said, the Kool-Aid, Casey Kool-Aid -- I mean, making fun of something like this isn`t what anybody should be doing, especially if they`re professionals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black. In doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s gone so far downhill and it`s become such a mess, we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I still believe in my heart and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter`s still out there and she`s alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB news talk 1150. Mark, I`ve watched the clip several times. I don`t think that anyone was being jocular. No one was making light of the situation at all.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, the deal is, it has just erupted into a media firestorm today, Nancy. This took place on Tuesday night on CNN Headline News, when Mr. Black made mention -- and we`re quoting -- "a loss of life" of this little girl. Then Mr. Black was heard hesitating ever so slightly, then trying to backtrack on his statement.

It was an exchange with a guest that we have on this show, Mike Brooks. But this afternoon, Jose Baez, the defense attorney, holding a news conference, saying yes, he was taken out of context and that Mr. Black is not a lawyer.

GRACE: Joining me right now, former fed with the FBI -- apparently, you started the whole thing, Mike Brooks. But I think it`s very significant, when the defense`s own team, who is saying the little girl is alive, be it in Texas, Puerto Rico, North Carolina, Florida, wherever, to come out and talk about, quote, "the loss of Caylee`s life."

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And there was nothing at all taken out of context. And they said, you know, what I was saying was a joke. This was earlier in "Prime News." You know, I`m CNN`s law enforcement analyst, and I`m very, very serious about this case and I`m sickened by this case. And what I said, that Cindy Anthony was -- still continued to drink the Casey Kool-Aid, I was implying that she`s still believing what her daughter is telling her, despite the mounds of evidence against her.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live right now. Tot mom Casey Anthony has been moved to protective custody behind bars. Specifically, what does that mean, Brooks, protective custody?

BROOKS: It means that she`s by herself. She`s in a cell all by herself, doesn`t have any contact with any of the other inmates in the facility. You know, there`s a possibility that they believe that she could be in some danger because there kind of might have been threats. That`s why they put them in protective custody. And it`s a very, very high level of security.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by there at the Orlando jail. Explain to me what her living conditions are.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s a 12-and-a-half by seven (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Natisha, could you speak up? Natisha, I can`t hear you . Speak up, please.

LANCE: Yes, absolutely. She`s in a 12-and-a-half by 7-foot cell. She has a desk and a stool in her cell also. She has a bed. She has a sink. She has a toilet. Also, she has one hour a day where she can go take a shower. She can sit in the day room. Also, she has one hour a day where she could possibly go to the recreational area. She can also check out books from the library. And previously, when she has been incarcerated, they have said that she was a very ferocious (SIC) reader.

GRACE: And has she had any visitors, Natisha?

LANCE: She did. She had a visit last night from her attorney, Jose Baez. However, there have not been any visits that have been scheduled by her family for any type of video visitations, at this point.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, child advocate, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello, defense attorney and host of "Closing Arguments" on WGNY.

You know, Peter, you`re in a lot of trouble when your own spokesperson says the victim is dead.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he went off the party line, Nancy, and it`s a very difficult party line to stick to. No reasonable person really believes that this child is alive at this point, and he just forgot. And really, the problem is that they probably shouldn`t be trying to play this in the media anymore. It`s over.

GRACE: You know, now is the time for complete silence on both sides, not as if the prosecution has made any public statements anyway. To Susan Moss, what about it?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The science is going to prove whether this child is alive or dead. And let me tell you something. If Caylee`s fluid is found in her trunk, the defense`s efforts for acquittal is sunk. This is a case about science. I think the science is going to show that it was her hair in the trunk, it`s her fluid on the bag that was found in the trunk, and it was her decomposing body that was found in the air in her car.

GRACE: And here`s the thing. To Michael Mazzariello. Michael, even though the defense spokesperson has said on national TV, on this network, that little Caylee is dead -- he refers to her "loss of life" -- the jury will never hear about that, will they.

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they won`t. And it`s a classic example, Nancy, as you know -- loose lips sink ships. I mean, the defense attorney`s got to button up everybody, tell everyone to be quiet.

GRACE: Yes. My question is, will it come into evidence?

MAZZARIELLO: No, absolutely not.

GRACE: Why?

MAZZARIELLO: Because it`s not admissible. It has nothing to do with the case, no bearing to the case.

GRACE: Susan, why won`t it come into evidence?

MOSS: Well, unfortunately, it`s not a party admission and -- unless he can be shown to be a direct agent of her, but even then, it`s going to be a close call, and I don`t think the judge is going to take that risk.

GRACE: Well, obviously, Peter Odom, it`s based on hearsay. The spokesperson doesn`t know by firsthand account. He did not see, hear, taste, touch or smell anything to convince him little Caylee is dead. That is direct evidence. Hearsay would be based on someone telling you that. That`s why it`s not going to come into evidence. Unless the spokesperson knows himself that she is dead, the jury will never know that the defense essentially blurted out the victim is dead. I mean, their whole premise is, She`s alive and we`re looking for her.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. The statement is not attributable to her. My prediction, though, is, Nancy, by the time this case goes to trial, it will not be about whether Caylee is dead or alive but how she died.

GRACE: Excellent point, Peter Odom.

Out to the lines. Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a quick question for you. I was wondering -- I know they checked the cell tower for her pings and they kind of realized she was out by the airport, but do you think they`ve checked for any other pings that line up with hers that would say there was someone with her?

GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Mike Brooks? This is your expertise.

BROOKS: No, I would say so, Nancy. You know, they thought they had the pings going back to that area that Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch was searching, but nothing came up with that. But I`m sure they`ve gone over each of those pings on those particular days in question with a fine- toothed comb.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don`t think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m scared. And I know I`m running out of options (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you scared of?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m scared of not seeing my daughter ever again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

CINDY ANTHONY: They have not been taking Caylee`s tips, which I`ve been saying that from day one, but I have been ridiculed and prosecuted.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Thinking about the night that my wife made that phone call or three phone calls before someone actually showed up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: That was the hardest thing she ever had to do. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for -- whatever it might be. That hurts her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black, and I`ve spoken to Todd Black personally. And in doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, we played you the clip and no one was joking about little Caylee`s disappearance. In fact, the defense team spokesperson goes on national TV, on this network, and makes a statement that little Caylee is dead while they are arguing to the court that she is alive and they`re looking for her.

I want to go back out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Westwood One. He`s standing by at the Orlando, Florida, jail. Speaking of the defense, there are mounting reports that the defense attorney, Baez, will come off the case because of lack of trial experience. Did Baez address that?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE: Well, he did, Nancy, because under Florida statute, a lawyer here must have at least five years of trial room (ph) experience in order to qualify to sit on a capital murder case. So he says that there are associates within his firm that he can tap who do have the experience and the background necessary that will allow them to stay as the lead counsel for Casey Anthony, if and when this case goes to trial.

GRACE: What exactly is Baez`s trial experience? How many cases has he tried?

O`NEILL: I don`t know the total number. He`s had three of the more high-profile cases in town.

GRACE: No, I`m talking about trials. Trials.

O`NEILL: I`m trying to think of the specific trial number. It doesn`t come to mind immediately.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Nobody...

O`NEILL: I have not covered him in the courtroom.

GRACE: Yes. To -- and that is your beat.

O`NEILL: Right.

GRACE: Mark Williams of WNDB, what about it? I asked you this before. How many cases has this guy tried?

WILLIAMS: We know of three cases. One was a murder case in nearby Lake County.

GRACE: OK. That`s one.

WILLIAMS: And the gentleman was found guilty.

GRACE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: But obviously, it wasn`t a capital case. Secondly, he defended the mayor of Kissimmee, Mr. Gant down there...

GRACE: You told me that was a settlement.

WILLIAMS: Yes, that was a settlement.

GRACE: That`s not a trial, Mark. We talked about that.

WILLIAMS: I know, Nancy.

GRACE: So we`re down to two.

WILLIAMS: I`m just throwing it out there. Third one, he defended a woman, an Elvira Garcia (ph), who allegedly took a 6-month-old...

GRACE: Did it go to trial?

WILLIAMS: Not that we know of.

GRACE: Well, then why did you tell me three trials? That`s one trial, and the guy was convicted. Help me out here. Throw me a bone, Williams!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: No, I mean it.

WILLIAMS: Well...

GRACE: You know what? Let`s go to the lawyers -- Susan Moss, Peter Odom, Michael Mazzariello. He absolutely cannot, Susan Moss, I don`t care how great of a lawyer he may be, try a death penalty case unless he has trial experience under his belt. End of story. I don`t care how many cases he settled. That is the law.

MOSS: That is the law, and that`s a law for a good reason. You are talking about a person`s life. At the end of this case, her life could be absolutely in jeopardy. You don`t leave that to a novice. This is not moot court or moot trial or mock trial. You`ve got to know what you`re doing. You`ve got to do a good job, or else the whole trial can...

GRACE: We`re not playing tetherball out on the playground. You don`t get a redo in a death penalty case.

And back to you, Mark Williams. Did he say -- let me get this straight that there was someone death penalty-qualified to try the case, but that they want it to remain secret at this juncture?

WILLIAMS: Yes. The attorney said he didn`t want to be identified whatsoever.

GRACE: Why? Why?

WILLIAMS: Who knows? Maybe threats. There`s -- lawyers are great people. Sometimes they have little idiosyncracies, like they don`t want to be pressured, they don`t want their name out there.

GRACE: You know what, Mark? I`ve never heard of a single lawyer that did not want his or her name out there to try to get cases.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: And I hear laughter in all the studios all around this country right now because you know it`s true. You know, Mark Williams, you better give me a straight answer the next time I come to you...

WILLIAMS: OK.

GRACE: ... because that`s complete BS, and that is the technical legal term.

Take a listen to what Baez said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We have a team of lawyers working on the Casey Marie Anthony case, one of which is death penalty- qualified. He`s asked that his name not be mentioned at this time because -- quite frankly, I can`t blame him. And should the death penalty be sought, which is a big maybe, we will be prepared to handle it and move forward in the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. To you, Peter Odom. I`ve never in my life -- and I`ve seen plenty of them -- seen a death penalty defense lawyer say, I want to be anonymous, because you know what? A death penalty defense lawyer says, yes, I`m trying a death penalty because I believe this person has a right to a great defense and I`m going give it to them. I`ve never in my life heard a lawyer try to hide that they are defending a case.

ODOM: I agree with you, Nancy, it is remarkable. But remember, this case is remarkable. It has received an unprecedented amount of media attention, and maybe that`s affecting his behavior. Who knows?

GRACE: All the more better, Michael Mazzariello. You know how it works with defense lawyers.

MAZZARIELLO: Absolutely. And having tried a death penalty case here in New York that started off as death penalty, we had the Capital Defenders -- they specialize in the death penalty case -- to help us if we needed any help with the paperwork and if we didn`t know what we were doing. It`s a serious charge. He has to know what he`s doing. And the judge will take care of it, Nancy. If he`s not qualified, the judge will second seat him with an experienced attorney.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. What do you make of it?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, here`s the situation. When I was back there, there was nobody there qualified to try a murder case of this magnitude. And that`s why they had brought in Mr. Walsh (ph) -- I believe his name is Mike Walsh -- from Miami because, you know, three years -- most states require five years, as Florida does. And that was discussed on several occasions. This sounds like another mistake by Todd Black or Todd Bunch or whatever his name is.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`re taking your calls live. But to tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a young mom vanishing, Miami, Florida, 24-year-old Lily Aramburo reported missing June 2007 from a condo she shared with a live-in. According to reports, since her disappearance, the condo has been found desolate, full of trash, appliances missing. She`s 4-11, 108 pounds, black hair, brown eyes, tattoo lower back. If you have info, call Miami-Dade police, 305-418-7200.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a missing child, and I don`t want anyone to stop looking for Caylee because they think that we think she`s deceased.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive and we`re actively looking for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Texas Equusearch has left the area of Orlando after no cooperation, according to them, from the Anthony family. Back out to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the jail. Natisha, are police planning to start a search? Are they rounding up volunteers?

LANCE: At this point, Nancy, police are just following up those tips that have come in and working with all the information that they have at this point. There is not an active search. But when the time becomes available, they will be doing that.

GRACE: And to Mark Williams with WNDB. Has the defense filed for a change of venue?

WILLIAMS: Not as of yet. There`s -- you know, the Baez office has been very silent. You know, he never even asked for a speedy trial on Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focused on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof...

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee because we don`t know where Caylee...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: There`s absolutely nothing to find out. Not even what I told the detectives.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Well, you know, everything you`re telling them is a lie.

C. ANTHONY: I have no clue where Caylee is.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think your sister is being truthful?

L. ANTHONY: To the best of her ability right now, I do. And frankly, I wouldn`t still be here if I didn`t think that she was trying to cooperate with me.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I know my daughter is not leveling with me. I know what she`s done in the past.

You know, I got to believe her that she knows where -- everything is OK.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at. If you just told them the truth and not lied about everything...

I trust Casey and I love her and I support her and that I understand, and every day that goes by I know exactly how hard it is that she`s giving up her life to protect her child.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Richard Grund, the father of Jesse Grund, As you will recall, he was engaged to tot mom Casey Anthony and was actually told that Caylee was his biological child. That it turned out to be false, that he had fallen in love with the little girl.

Mr. Grund, thank you for being with us. What are your feelings now that formal charges have come down?

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Well, Nancy, thank you for having me on. You know we saw where this was going. We`ve watched the evidence. We`ve watched the trail. We knew it had to -- as long as Casey never said where Caylee is or who has her, this is the only direction it could go in, but we`re -- you know if anybody thinks that we`re happy or we`re celebrating, we`re not.

GRACE: You have said that if Caylee`s actually dead you believe it was the result of an accident? Do you still believe that?

GRUND: I absolutely believe that. I have never changed from that. I do not believe at any time that Casey Anthony would do deliberate harm to her daughter and almost anybody that knows Casey from friends to family say the same things. So I have not -- I have not backed off of that.

GRACE: In your wildest imaginings, how can you explain chloroform in her car trunk and her computer searches for chloroform?

GRUND: I think -- and Rob Dick can give you a better explanation of this, I believe -- and you know, let me state that since Caylee went missing I have done nothing but talked to Leonard, talked to anybody I can to try to find her. I have neglected in my life.

GRACE: Scenario. You say it`s an accident, how can that be with this evidence?

GRUND: OK, because I believe that Casey was working on a way to get away from her mother and I think that she had an exit strategy and something went wrong.

GRACE: OK. Well, that`s so vague I don`t even know what you`re talking about.

GRUND: What I mean is, I think -- and Rob can explain this better -- I think Casey was going to find a way to get away from her mother and it might have included faking a kidnapping.

GRACE: OK. Well, then that`s not an accident. You do a kidnapping and you use chloroform, that`s an aggravated assault and when they get her.

GRUND: If she used the chloroform.

GRACE: . (INAUDIBLE) murder.

GRUND: You know, Nancy, what we`re dealing with right now is a whole lot of speculation. We don`t know what happened.

GRACE: That is certainly true.

GRUND: If they find Caylee and there`s no evidence of chloroform all that goes out the window.

GRACE: Well, there is evidence of chloroform. But you`re right.

GRUND: In the car.

GRACE: . we don`t where Caylee is. That is absolutely correct.

I want to go to Bethany Marshall -- Bethany, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."

Dr. Marshall, you heard the press conference today where the defense spokesperson refers to Caylee`s death. Freudian slip?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Freudian slip because you know whoever acknowledges little Casey is dead has to acknowledge on some level that Casey could be a murderer.

And as far as the Kool-Aid reference, you know, that reminds me Jim Jones, the sociopath and cult leader who had homicidal intent, got all of the followers to drink the Kool-Aid.

The reference is not inappropriate. I mean Casey has fit a sociopathic profile. She probably has homicidal intent. We`ll find out when this goes to court and she`s been like pipe piper in terms of persuading everybody to go along with her up until this point.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Ellie in Utah, hi Ellie.

ELLIE, UTAH RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

ELLIE: I was just wondering if the police have any information on where Casey would have obtained the chloroform from?

GRACE: What do we know, Mark Williams?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, she`s obviously searched the chloroform word in her computer, but the deal is, is that you can mail order or get chloroform over the Internet. You can order it over the Internet. All you need is a credit card.

GRACE: You know, you`re absolutely correct about that.

To Sue in New York, hi, Sue.

SUE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is with -- I don`t think that it`s been decided yet as to whether this is going to be a death penalty case or not.

GRACE: Right.

SUE: But showing -- being we`ve seen her pattern of continuing lying, showing complete emotionless.

GRACE: Right.

SUE: . and nothing coming from this woman. I show more emotion when my animal`s gone missing, what kind of impact is that going have as far as them deciding as to whether they`re going go for the death penalty?

GRACE: Susan Moss?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I think it`s going to create a big impact. I think the fact of her lack of empathy is going to show the prosecutor that you really have to go all the way with her.

GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John J. College of Criminal Law, consultant -- paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Dr. Kobilinsky, when a defense -- well, you know the judge has ruled the state can go forward with forensic testing. The defense has tried to stop all forensic testing which is a crazy motion.

When you observe testing by the state, what is your role?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I`m there to make sure that the testing is done following the procedures that the laboratory has and that have been validated.

And to see that the evidence is not in endangered, that it might be contaminated, that it might be consumed when it was not necessary to do that consumption, and basically to make observations to convince myself that the results are reliable.

GRACE: Well, what are you doing? In the middle of the state`s testing you go, no, stop. You know, you`re not doing correctly?

KOBILINSKY: No, I don`t know that that is the case. I`ve done this kind of procedure before and we have informal discussions, but I think the judge has indicated that the defense expert has no right to discuss these kinds of procedures with the person doing the work, and I have no problem with that.

I just want to make sure that the information that comes out of this testing is something that we can trust so that there is facts that a jury, if it does go to trial, that a jury can trust.

GRACE: You know these words are going to come back to haunt you, Kobilinsky. You`ll see.

Everybody, as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to beautiful Jena, there she is, one evening at the show. And to my brother, Mac Grace. Here he is in his younger years. There he is over in the left and here he is with his wife, my sister-in-law, Jan.

Happy birthday, Jena and Mac.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Take a look at this picture of the boy. This is who police are looking for. They say that as many as three men knocked on the family`s door in Las Vegas yesterday morning. They claimed to be cops.

The mom opened the door because of that and that`s when these men burst in and demanded money. When the intruders didn`t find any money, police say they tied up Cole`s mother and her fiance and then they kidnapped Cole at gunpoint.

A neighbor says that Cole`s mother managed to crawl out to the sidewalk. Her mouth was duct tape, her hands were tied with electrical ties, and investigators believe the family was targeted.

Police have been going door to door using helicopters, patrol cars, everything they can to find Cole. They have not found him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Please take a look at this little boy. He`s just 6 years old. His name is Cole Puffinburger. The tip line number is 702-828-3111, Las Vegas Metro Police Department.

There he is, 3`11", just 48 pounds, blond hair, blue ice.

What an outrageous set of circumstances, to Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted.

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: This is. This is horrible, Nancy. And what police tell me -- just got off the phone with them again -- that this is not a random attack. This appears to be brainstormed. It was set, it was planned and it was actually executed, unfortunately.

And from what investigators tell me is that these men evidently went into the home looking for the grandfather of Cole. The grandfather hasn`t lived there since May of 2007. And when they couldn`t find him they started questioning Cole`s mom, and she didn`t have any information and that`s when they apparently tied up, you know, Cole`s mom and also her fiance, and then they took Cole and they left.

GRACE: To Ky Plaskon, with -- with KXNT News Radio -- Ky, thank you for being with us. What do they mean it`s not random and any idea where the little boy is? Do they really believe he`s headed to Mexico?

KY PLASKON, REPORTER, KXNT NEWS RADIO: Well, they really don`t know where he`s headed, but they have got the FBI involved to try and track down these people -- this trash.

They might have been looking for the grandfather from what we heard. Just an hour ago they`ve released why the -- this family, they believe, was targeted, which they said it was a drug nexus.

So drugs may have been sold out of this house. People may have been going there to look for that actual drug money at the time and now this young boy is caught in the middle of all of this, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what? Frankly, Ky, I don`t care what the motive is, this little boy is missing, taken out of his own home. I don`t know what the grandfather was into at some time in the past. All I know is he wasn`t there. He hadn`t lived there in a long time and this little boy was taken at gunpoint.

Take a look at little Cole.

Out to Captain Vincent Cannito with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police. Captain, thank you for being with us. Can you give us a description of the perps?

CAPT. VINCENT CANNITO, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPT.: Yes, Nancy. Right now we`re dealing with three -- from what we have Hispanic male adults. The only clear description we have on one of them is approximately a Hispanic male in his early 30s, approximately 5`7", 170 pounds, shoulder length black hair, slick back.

GRACE: Wait a minute, were they wearing masks?

CANNITO: No, they weren`t.

GRACE: And that`s the best we`ve got? How about a composite?

CANNITO: You know, unfortunately, Nancy, when you`re dealing with a situation like this and given the magnitude and the violent nature of this incident right here for the daughter and the boyfriend to give us a very clear description, we haven`t been able to get one from them.

GRACE: OK. Captain.

CANNITO: Yes.

GRACE: That doesn`t sound right to me that they can`t give a composite description of the perps? I mean, they pulled a gun on them, they had to tie them up. They were tied up so they had to get close to the perpetrators.

CANNITO: Yes. Well, Nancy, again, as we`re asking these questions of the people that were in the home and we`re trying to get the information from them, we`re asking the same questions.

GRACE: You know, Captain, I read you loud and clear. I don`t care what may be hinky about the case, this boy is missing.

Now, Captain, do we know the boy was there? Do we know he was really there in the home?

CANNITO: Through all of the investigative leads that we`ve been following up on, we do. We do know that this child was actually kidnapped.

GRACE: Oh, Captain, you what? I was hoping so much it was some kind of a fantastic hoax. Look at this little boy taken at gunpoint out of his home.

We are taking your calls live, to Jennifer in North Carolina, hi, Jennifer.

JENNIFER, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. We love you.

GRACE: Thank you, dear, and thank you to my friends in North Carolina for watching and calling in so often.

What`s your question, dear?

JENNIFER: You said that they tied up the mom`s fiance. Do you know anything about the boy`s father?

GRACE: The boy`s father. I do know -- actually let me ask Ky Plaskon that with KXNT. Didn`t he show up a short time after and completely broke down in tears when he learned what had happened?

PLASKON: He showed up running and crying into the house. That`s all we know at this point.

He was divorced from his wife at the time. His -- Cole`s mother was there at the house with her fiance. They went through this whole ordeal, but now the father is, obviously, having to deal with it himself, too.

GRACE: So how soon after the incident did the father show up?

PLASKON: We`re not really sure what -- at what point he showed up, but it was between now and Wednesday at 7:15 in the morning.

Let me tell you they didn`t issue the AMBER Alert until about noon and this happened at 7:15 in the morning. They didn`t issue the AMBER Alert because they didn`t have a good description. They still don`t know what kind of car these guys are driving. They don`t know even which direction they may be headed.

GRACE: You know Captain Cannito is us from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.

Captain, didn`t anybody outside see anything? Did this actually happen at 7:00 a.m.?

CANNITO: Yes. This happened at approximately 7:23 in the morning. I`d like to get back to the AMBER Alert issue. What we did was when we got the call initially we went out there, patrol officers, the primary responders, then they called out the detectives.

We go out, we canvassed the area. We look at neighboring stores, any homes that may have video. We go on view the video to see if there was anything that would indicate the activities that we`re investigating at the time.

Now this call came in at 07:23 in the morning. The first unit responded at 07:30. That was the first detective was called out and actually responded on the scene at 08:09. At that time, the investigative process is taking course. We requested the AMBER Alert once all the information was established and verified, investigation was under way.

At approximately 11:30 is when the AMBER Alert was requested.

You have to understand, again, as was pointed out that the vehicle -- there is no vehicle description and under normal circumstances that`s a very critical piece of information for an AMBER Alert to get authorized to the state.

GRACE: Exactly.

CANNITO: But there is -- but there is latitude and flexibility with that based on the severity of the situation and dealing with the urgency to the child, the danger to the child or the person in question.

In this case, again, this is one of those cases, this is as bad as it gets. So the states have been absolutely phenomenal with the AMBER Alert and, again, to explain a little bit about that AMBER Alert process, the reason it is, as difficult as it is to get one of those on, is because we don`t want to minimize the impact that an AMBER Alert has.

But to address the issue of time to get that Amber Alert on, and you`re looking at several hours and that is the course of the preliminary investigation and in very short order with all the units that were working that case.

GRACE: Hey, Captain.

CANNITO: I got that AMBER Alert on as quickly as possible. Yes.

GRACE: I just heard a statement that somehow somebody in the home at some point in the past may have been involved in drugs. What do you know?

CANNITO: This is definitely a situation that is initiated due to a drug nexus. Now we have been working this case, again, since 7:30 yesterday morning. We are following up on a number of leads that have come in through the media, that have come in through a non-emergency line.

GRACE: Oh Captain.

CANNITO: And.

GRACE: Captain, I`m just sick. I`m sick that the conduct of adults - - let`s go to Bethany Marshall. The conduct of adults, I guess, the grandfather is who they`re referring to at some point being involved in drugs that somehow that has resulted in this little boy`s kidnap at gunpoint?

How irresponsible for parents to somehow expose their children to that.

MARSHALL: It is unconscionable that any parent would engage in any activity at all.

GRACE: Listen, Bethany.

MARSHALL: . that would put their child at risk.

GRACE: Bethany, Bethany, last Christmas.

MARSHALL: Yes.

GRACE: . somebody came to the Christmas dinner and I smelled smoke on them, I`m like, uh-uh, no, sorry, get out.

MARSHALL: Well, Nancy.

GRACE: Nicotine affects SIDS.

MARSHALL: I know.

GRACE: Sudden infant death syndrome. But there`s a parent.

MARSHALL: I know.

GRACE: . that would allow a doper in the house with a child?

MARSHALL: And I`ll do one worse on this, the fact that they`re potentially part of a drug cartel, according to one news report, Mexican Nationals, the culture of terrorism over there, the beheadings, the rapes, the tortures, the fact that these parents, it`s not just that these parents are smoking, they`re exposing their child to that whole culture and that whole way of life.

That is what is so unconscionable and irresponsible.

GRACE: Peter Odom, Peter Odom, if this is true, the whole kit and caboodle needs to be investigated. They have exposed to boy to anybody that`s a doper.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, there are states that have criminal penalties for just exposing children to things like this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time, we are comfortable in saying that this kidnapping has a very definite drug nexus involved with the family. Right now, we`re at approximately 33 hours into this investigation. Today we have interviewed dozens, literally dozens of individuals that have some form of information or connection to this incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, to Elizabeth, hi, Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH, CALLER: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

ELIZABETH: I have -- want to know if they have found the grandfather, where is the grandfather and have they talked to him?

GRACE: To Captain Vincent Cannito with the Vegas Police Department, what do we know?

CANNITO: Right now we`re following up on a number of different leads involving all members of his family with regards to any one in particular or specifics such as a grandfather.

GRACE: OK.

CANNITO: . or what have you. Again.

GRACE: Were there any prints, Captain? Were prints taken?

CANNITO: Well, when we got into the -- to the residence, there was some -- evidence that was taken out of the home. But again, due to the nature of this investigation and the sensitivity of this case, dealing with a 6-year-old child, I know that you respect the fact that.

GRACE: Right, I do.

CANNITO: . there are certain details with this case that clearly we can`t.

GRACE: Got it.

CANNITO: . jeopardize.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, what do you think?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I think, you know, the captain`s right, you can`t comment on that, but I agree you Nancy, I`m sure the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police, (INAUDIBLE) Department, along with the FBI, I`m sure the DEA is going to get involved in this because they operate cases all the time before.

GRACE: Have you ever heard of anything to do with a drug deal, a child being taken? I have not.

BROOKS: No, I -- in recent memory, Nancy, I cannot think of anything like this. I mean just a horrible, horrible thing to this innocent boy.

GRACE: Let`s go back to that tip line, 702-828-3111.

Look at Cole, everybody, taken at gunpoint, out of his home.

I want to stop and remember Army Sergeant Guadalupe Cervantes Ramirez, 26, Port Irwin, California, on a second tour, also served Korea. Awarded the Army Commendation Medal. Loved learning new things. Remembered for devotion, loyalty, courage.

Leaves behind parents, widow Amber, children Amy and Guadalupe.

Guadalupe Cervantes Ramirez, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us, and a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Ann, Lynne, Melody, April, aren`t they beautiful?

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END
NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Murder Case Developments

Aired October 16, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The tot mom defense spokesperson goes on national TV and refers to little Caylee`s death. Translation? Even the defense mouthpiece slips up and announces 3-year-old Caylee is dead. This while mom Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy insist little Caylee was kidnapped and is still alive. The defense now, as usual, blaming the media.

Mom Casey facing formal charges, including murder one. Without a body, prosecutors building a case against tot mom Casey with state-of-the- art forensics and reams of mom Casey`s lies, but will it stick? The DA yet to announce if the Florida death penalty will be sought. Mom Casey Anthony in protective custody behind bars tonight. The judge orders forensic testing will go forward, squashing the defense demand that all testing stop immediately, as Texas Equusearch pulls out of Orlando after no cooperation with the Anthony family. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony, the mother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony, is facing first-degree murder charges in the disappearance and presumed death of her little girl, Caylee. Todd Black, the spokesman for Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, and his firm had made mention of little Caylee and he said in there that we`re dealing with the loss of a life of a little girl. And here`s what he has to say concerning that very comment, releasing a statement to us, saying that remark is being taken out of context. Our position remains clear that Caylee is still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive, and we`re actively looking for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Marie Anthony is charged with first-degree murder of the death of her child. So for him to say that this case is about the death of a child or what will happen to Casey isn`t exactly an inaccurate statement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Vegas police on high alert, a 6-year-old little boy in extreme danger, kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family found bound and left behind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger, who was kidnapped at gunpoint. Police say three male suspects came to the boy`s home in the early morning Wednesday and got in by posing as police officers. That`s when police say they tied and gagged Cole`s mother and the mother`s friend and began searching the apartment for money. When there was no money to be found, the suspects kidnapped little Cole. Police are desperate to find Cole and are concerned for his safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the Amber Alert went out and as soon as this photograph was received at the center, we did a 90-mile radius of every motel, hotel, truck stop, trucking company, everybody that`s dispatched by computer, like trucking companies, mass transit kind of thing. That child`s photo was given to all of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities in southern California, New Mexico and Arizona have all been alerted to the kidnapping, with some suggestion the kidnappers may take the child to Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We hear Cindy all the time now. Even still, just days ago and just yesterday, you know, still -- sounds like she`s still drinking the Casey Kool-Aid. But I think George has finally said, you know, Enough is enough here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very serious case involving not just the loss of the life of this little girl but the loss of whatever`s going happen with Casey Anthony. And for a gentleman to sit on a show, on a national show, and make a remark like Caylee -- what did he call it, cocktail, or whatever he said, the Kool-Aid, Casey Kool-Aid -- I mean, making fun of something like this isn`t what anybody should be doing, especially if they`re professionals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black. In doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s gone so far downhill and it`s become such a mess, we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I still believe in my heart and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter`s still out there and she`s alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB news talk 1150. Mark, I`ve watched the clip several times. I don`t think that anyone was being jocular. No one was making light of the situation at all.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, the deal is, it has just erupted into a media firestorm today, Nancy. This took place on Tuesday night on CNN Headline News, when Mr. Black made mention -- and we`re quoting -- "a loss of life" of this little girl. Then Mr. Black was heard hesitating ever so slightly, then trying to backtrack on his statement.

It was an exchange with a guest that we have on this show, Mike Brooks. But this afternoon, Jose Baez, the defense attorney, holding a news conference, saying yes, he was taken out of context and that Mr. Black is not a lawyer.

GRACE: Joining me right now, former fed with the FBI -- apparently, you started the whole thing, Mike Brooks. But I think it`s very significant, when the defense`s own team, who is saying the little girl is alive, be it in Texas, Puerto Rico, North Carolina, Florida, wherever, to come out and talk about, quote, "the loss of Caylee`s life."

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And there was nothing at all taken out of context. And they said, you know, what I was saying was a joke. This was earlier in "Prime News." You know, I`m CNN`s law enforcement analyst, and I`m very, very serious about this case and I`m sickened by this case. And what I said, that Cindy Anthony was -- still continued to drink the Casey Kool-Aid, I was implying that she`s still believing what her daughter is telling her, despite the mounds of evidence against her.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live right now. Tot mom Casey Anthony has been moved to protective custody behind bars. Specifically, what does that mean, Brooks, protective custody?

BROOKS: It means that she`s by herself. She`s in a cell all by herself, doesn`t have any contact with any of the other inmates in the facility. You know, there`s a possibility that they believe that she could be in some danger because there kind of might have been threats. That`s why they put them in protective custody. And it`s a very, very high level of security.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by there at the Orlando jail. Explain to me what her living conditions are.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s a 12-and-a-half by seven (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Natisha, could you speak up? Natisha, I can`t hear you . Speak up, please.

LANCE: Yes, absolutely. She`s in a 12-and-a-half by 7-foot cell. She has a desk and a stool in her cell also. She has a bed. She has a sink. She has a toilet. Also, she has one hour a day where she can go take a shower. She can sit in the day room. Also, she has one hour a day where she could possibly go to the recreational area. She can also check out books from the library. And previously, when she has been incarcerated, they have said that she was a very ferocious (SIC) reader.

GRACE: And has she had any visitors, Natisha?

LANCE: She did. She had a visit last night from her attorney, Jose Baez. However, there have not been any visits that have been scheduled by her family for any type of video visitations, at this point.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, child advocate, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello, defense attorney and host of "Closing Arguments" on WGNY.

You know, Peter, you`re in a lot of trouble when your own spokesperson says the victim is dead.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he went off the party line, Nancy, and it`s a very difficult party line to stick to. No reasonable person really believes that this child is alive at this point, and he just forgot. And really, the problem is that they probably shouldn`t be trying to play this in the media anymore. It`s over.

GRACE: You know, now is the time for complete silence on both sides, not as if the prosecution has made any public statements anyway. To Susan Moss, what about it?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The science is going to prove whether this child is alive or dead. And let me tell you something. If Caylee`s fluid is found in her trunk, the defense`s efforts for acquittal is sunk. This is a case about science. I think the science is going to show that it was her hair in the trunk, it`s her fluid on the bag that was found in the trunk, and it was her decomposing body that was found in the air in her car.

GRACE: And here`s the thing. To Michael Mazzariello. Michael, even though the defense spokesperson has said on national TV, on this network, that little Caylee is dead -- he refers to her "loss of life" -- the jury will never hear about that, will they.

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they won`t. And it`s a classic example, Nancy, as you know -- loose lips sink ships. I mean, the defense attorney`s got to button up everybody, tell everyone to be quiet.

GRACE: Yes. My question is, will it come into evidence?

MAZZARIELLO: No, absolutely not.

GRACE: Why?

MAZZARIELLO: Because it`s not admissible. It has nothing to do with the case, no bearing to the case.

GRACE: Susan, why won`t it come into evidence?

MOSS: Well, unfortunately, it`s not a party admission and -- unless he can be shown to be a direct agent of her, but even then, it`s going to be a close call, and I don`t think the judge is going to take that risk.

GRACE: Well, obviously, Peter Odom, it`s based on hearsay. The spokesperson doesn`t know by firsthand account. He did not see, hear, taste, touch or smell anything to convince him little Caylee is dead. That is direct evidence. Hearsay would be based on someone telling you that. That`s why it`s not going to come into evidence. Unless the spokesperson knows himself that she is dead, the jury will never know that the defense essentially blurted out the victim is dead. I mean, their whole premise is, She`s alive and we`re looking for her.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. The statement is not attributable to her. My prediction, though, is, Nancy, by the time this case goes to trial, it will not be about whether Caylee is dead or alive but how she died.

GRACE: Excellent point, Peter Odom.

Out to the lines. Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a quick question for you. I was wondering -- I know they checked the cell tower for her pings and they kind of realized she was out by the airport, but do you think they`ve checked for any other pings that line up with hers that would say there was someone with her?

GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Mike Brooks? This is your expertise.

BROOKS: No, I would say so, Nancy. You know, they thought they had the pings going back to that area that Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch was searching, but nothing came up with that. But I`m sure they`ve gone over each of those pings on those particular days in question with a fine- toothed comb.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don`t think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m scared. And I know I`m running out of options (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you scared of?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m scared of not seeing my daughter ever again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

CINDY ANTHONY: They have not been taking Caylee`s tips, which I`ve been saying that from day one, but I have been ridiculed and prosecuted.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Thinking about the night that my wife made that phone call or three phone calls before someone actually showed up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: That was the hardest thing she ever had to do. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for -- whatever it might be. That hurts her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black, and I`ve spoken to Todd Black personally. And in doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, we played you the clip and no one was joking about little Caylee`s disappearance. In fact, the defense team spokesperson goes on national TV, on this network, and makes a statement that little Caylee is dead while they are arguing to the court that she is alive and they`re looking for her.

I want to go back out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Westwood One. He`s standing by at the Orlando, Florida, jail. Speaking of the defense, there are mounting reports that the defense attorney, Baez, will come off the case because of lack of trial experience. Did Baez address that?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE: Well, he did, Nancy, because under Florida statute, a lawyer here must have at least five years of trial room (ph) experience in order to qualify to sit on a capital murder case. So he says that there are associates within his firm that he can tap who do have the experience and the background necessary that will allow them to stay as the lead counsel for Casey Anthony, if and when this case goes to trial.

GRACE: What exactly is Baez`s trial experience? How many cases has he tried?

O`NEILL: I don`t know the total number. He`s had three of the more high-profile cases in town.

GRACE: No, I`m talking about trials. Trials.

O`NEILL: I`m trying to think of the specific trial number. It doesn`t come to mind immediately.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Nobody...

O`NEILL: I have not covered him in the courtroom.

GRACE: Yes. To -- and that is your beat.

O`NEILL: Right.

GRACE: Mark Williams of WNDB, what about it? I asked you this before. How many cases has this guy tried?

WILLIAMS: We know of three

NANCY GRACE

New Witness in Casey Anthony Case

Aired October 17, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. In the last hour, tot mom Casey Anthony pleads not guilty to murder one. And a new and extremely detailed tip placing mom Casey leaving a heavily-wooded area after Caylee goes missing, shovel in hand, five miles from the Anthony home and near the Orlando airport. The witness says mom Casey, in hat and shades, carrying shovel and bag, along with an unidentified male accomplice. Is the tip credible? This would be the second eyewitness placing mom Casey near the airport after Caylee goes missing.

And tonight, after suddenly pulling out of Orlando with no cooperation from the Anthony family, Texas Equusearch heads back to Florida to pick up the search for Caylee. The defense mouthpiece who slips up and announces 3-year-old Caylee is dead now says it`s all the media`s fault. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony has pled not guilty to a first degree murder charge related to the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee. If convicted of murder, Anthony could face the death penalty and at the very least is looking at life in prison without the possibility of parole.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strands of hair, a questionable stain and a foul odor -- the evidence in this car played a large part in Casey Anthony`s indictment for first degree murder. It automatically qualifies for the death penalty, but it is unlikely prosecutors have enough evidence to seek death row for Caylee`s alleged murder.

Criminal defense attorney Diana Tenant (ph) has represented about 15 defendants facing the death penalty. She says death penalty cases take into account the suffering of the victim, and the murder has to have certain aggravators, like being heinous, atrocious and cruel. But while prosecutors say Caylee is dead, there`s no way to prove she suffered without her body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember we had those two people that we were talking about, the person who had an accident or made an accident or made a bad decision, and a person who`s just a cold-blooded, callous monster? That`s telling me that you`re the second person, this cold-blooded, callous monster...

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I`m not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... who doesn`t care and doesn`t want to help because she`s afraid that something so heinous happened that everyone`s going to look at her and say, She`s a monster. She deserves to go away. She deserves to never see the light of day. This bad thing should happen to her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In addition to the capital murder charge, Anthony faces charges of aggravated manslaughter, aggravated child abuse, as well as lying to investigators. Anthony still maintains the child was kidnapped by alleged baby-sitter Zenaida Gonzalez, while investigators and prosecutors believe that she is responsible for the child`s death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Vegas police and now the feds on high alert, a 6- year-old little boy in extreme danger, kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family found bound and left behind, the search growing more desperate by the minute. Has a person of interest been identified? And what does a Mexican drug cartel have to do with 6-year-old little Cole?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little Cole Puffinburger, a 6-year-old boy, might be in the crosshairs of a ruthless drug cartel, kidnapped because, Las Vegas police, say his grandfather owes drug dealers millions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have interviewed dozens of people. We have created dozens of leads and established several very significant persons of interest. One such person is Clemens Fred Sinimeyer (ph). The individual in this photograph is Cole`s grandfather. This is the individual that has been involved in very significant drug dealing. It would be no understatement to state that other members in the family are involved, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are millions of dollars involved in major drug trafficking that this individual was part of. Please understand that the reason Cole was kidnapped was the result of trying to get back -- the drug dealers trying to get back their money, their property, what have you. We want to ensure that everyone in the country continues looking for this individual.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful little Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking development in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

PAUL KOVACH, WITNESS: White car, black bra (ph) on the front. That area right there is where she was coming out of the woods with a shovel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orlando station WFTV spoke to a possible eyewitness who claims he saw a woman closely resembling tot mom Casey Anthony near a wooded area with a shovel and bag in late June.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paul Kovach says he truly believes he saw Casey Anthony`s car parked along the roadside in late June as he and a friend slowly trolled for scrap metal on the roadside.

KOVACH: I knew something was wrong then. If Jimmy would have just stopped, we`d have been all right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says he wanted to see if the woman needed help, but his friend would only slow down as the woman walked out of the wooded area wearing a large straw hat, where a bridge of old tires is the only access to railroad tracks -- very secluded railroad tracks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The witness also says he saw a well-dressed man standing nearby, talking on a cell phone and pretending to fish.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wasn`t dressed like he was wandering the woods?

KOVACH: No, he was well dressed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

KOVACH: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car and everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, tell me about this new tip. It`s my understanding this is the second eyewitness placing mom Casey Anthony in that same area.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s true. It`s near the airport, south of Orlando International Airport. It was actually the same frame of time, in late June, he says that he saw the car. He says now that it was a white Pontiac Sunfire with a black bra on the front. That`s exactly the way Casey Anthony`s car looks. He said that now thinking back, after seeing pictures of Casey Anthony on the news, he does believe that it`s Casey Anthony.

He says she acted very nervous when she saw the car. She avoided looking at the car. And again, she tried to put the shovel and the bag that she had in her hands in the trunk of that car as quickly as possible, so quickly she almost knocked the hat off. He said she was also wearing big red sunglasses, and that the trunk was already open when they noticed the car, as if somebody was in a hurry to get stuff back into that trunk.

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter joining us from Sacramento, California. Leonard, what`s so interesting about this tip -- and believe me, as a former prosecutor, I`ve dealt with a million tips. This guy is not an anonymous tipster that`s just calling in and leaving some bogus story on a recording. This is a guy -- here he is, Paul Kovach, the tipster. He`s coming forward. We know his name. We`ve seen his picture. We`ve heard his voice. We know all about him. And his story is extremely detailed, Leonard.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it`s certainly easy enough to check that area out by the way he described it, and he certainly describes her. And the latter part of June -- I mean, there`s a lot of things in there that certainly fit. The bag, the shovel, the -- the glasses, the white-brim straw hat -- I don`t know about those items, but it`s certainly within the area that everybody has discussed.

GRACE: Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, it`s my understanding that this informant believes his story so much that he is considering getting a group of his own friends to go out and search.

BELICH: That`s right. He is considering that. He doesn`t want to step on the toes of investigators. He has called in that information. He says he hasn`t heard back. A lot of times, they don`t call back and tell somebody whether their information is good or not. But yes, he believes in it very strongly.

GRACE: To Sergeant Scott Haines, a sheriff in Santa Rosa County, Florida. Sergeant, what`s so interesting to me, after dealing with a lot of tips, is the detail in this tip. What does that mean to you?

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL: Well, the more detailed the tip, usually the more reliable the tip. What we need to look at, though, is when the tip came in because most of the things that he`s stating have been seen by the common public on TV, such as her white car with the black bra, the shovel was brought up, things of that nature. And so is the area. So investigators are definitely going to look into this tip. It sounds like a good tip, but at the same time, there have been tips where people have...

GRACE: Hold on. Wouldn`t it be easy enough to get in touch with the guy that was driving to confirm or deny this story happened, Sergeant?

HAINES: That is true. They would definitely need to look at that. But at the same time, there have been people, I`m sure, as you know, that have come together to fabricate things.

GRACE: Oh, please, Sergeant. Come on. You expect me to believe two guys are going to get together to what, frame Casey Anthony? They don`t know her from Adam`s housecat!

HAINES: I`m not saying that they do. I`m just saying that police need to look into that because of all the evidence that...

GRACE: Well, that`s obvious. Of course, they need to look into it. But the detail behind this tip...

We are taking your calls live. Out to Rosann in New Jersey. Hi, Rosann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice speaking with you. I just wanted to say one thing as far as what they`re going to charge her with, obviously, first degree murder. I think they obviously should stick with that. They`re saying maybe she sold her daughter. But why would she use fraudulent checks, phony checks, and not have the money from the sale of her child? So I think they should just dispel that, go for the murder one, and of course, the death penalty -- she`s, you know, cold-hearted. She -- and that`s my thought on that.

GRACE: Do you have a question, Rosann?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I wanted to know if they`re still looking to even, you know, approach that as far as...

GRACE: Oh, no. They are not looking at the possibility of her selling the child. They are going forward with murder one charges probably because of some of your logic. If she had all the money from selling a child, why would she have to forge checks?

Out to Julie in Massachusetts. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if she`s found not guilty on these charges, can the federal government then go after her for murder?

GRACE: Interesting. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Randy Kessler (ph), also out of Atlanta. What about it, Randy?

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, there are different charges, and sometimes the feds can go after it. We saw this in other cases. We saw this with O.J. Simpson. We saw this in the Anna Nicole Smith situation.

GRACE: I don`t see it here because the little girl is not a federally-protected class, Randy.

KESSLER: If she gets taken across state lines, you know, there are things we`re going to have to look into. The facts are still developing.

GRACE: So it`s possible.

KESSLER: I think it`s possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOVACH: White car, black bra on the front.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paul Kovach says he truly believes he saw Casey Anthony`s car parked along the roadside in late June as he and a friend slowly trolled for scrap metal on the roadside.

Kovach says he wanted to see if the woman needed help, but his friend would only slow down as the woman walked out of the wooded area wearing a large straw hat, where a bridge of old tires is the only access to railroad tracks -- very secluded railroad tracks.

KOVACH: ... area right there is where she was coming out of the woods with the shovel. Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This is now the second eyewitness account placing mom Casey Anthony near the Orlando airport at the time just after little Caylee goes missing. Also today, headline. Mom Casey Anthony pleads not guilty to murder.

Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Tell me about the not guilty.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, she entered it via a letter, so she did not have to make an appearance. She also won`t have to show up for her October 28 arraignment. Looks like the next time that she has to appear in court is going to be on November 5 for her pre-trial for the other charges -- not for the first degree murder but for the check fraud charges and the child neglect.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the Orlando jail. What about the child neglect charge? Won`t that have to be dropped now?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, actually, they say that they are planning to go ahead with the child neglect charge at this point, and we have not heard otherwise. But they are still planning to go ahead with that. Everybody who has been subpoenaed is still planning to be in court on that day.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Penny Douglas Furr and Randy Kessler. To Penny Douglas Furr. I would think that this would be an opportunity for her to appear in court and make a resounding not guilty plea, instead of just doing it by paper.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true, Nancy. However, I also wanted to say on the other charge with the neglect, I would definitely go forward with that, if I was her attorney.

GRACE: I want to talk about the not guilty plea that just went down in court today. Kessler, what`s your theory about why she`s afraid to show up in court?

KESSLER: Well, look, she`s got people like us on TV criticizing and analyzing every single move she makes. You know, she`s not getting the good breaks from the press. So why would she come out and think that today`s going to be any different? You know, not guilty is not guilty.

GRACE: Well, you know, Kessler, I`m sure you and Penny remember that it helped O.J. Simpson when he showed up in court and said, "100 percent not guilty," firmly, affirmatively. He ended up getting acquitted on that charge at that time. I don`t know. I think that this is a bad way to handle what could have been a good appearance for her in the public`s eyes.

KESSLER: But we don`t know what she was like. We don`t know what her lawyers saw in her eyes. Maybe her lawyer knew that if she stepped into court, she was going to break down and she would not handle this kind of a thing...

GRACE: Break down? The whole time -- to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." This entire ordeal, Lillian, she has cried -- she`s shed a tear or appeared to shed a tear twice, when she was charged and in court the first time, and while the grand jury was meeting about her the second time, never for her own daughter. She`s not going to break down in court.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Exactly. You`re so right. These are alligator tears. And when you look at her body language, it speaks volumes. When you listen to her voice quality, it`s a monotone. She doesn`t care. It`s all about her. And this is what`s showing.

GRACE: Lillian?

GLASS: Yes?

GRACE: I know that you are a doctor that has lived in New York for many, many years, but it`s crocodile tears. And where I come from, it`s a very big difference in an alligator and a crocodile.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Out to Linda in Missouri. Hi, Linda. Lorraine in South Carolina. Hi, Lorraine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening, Nancy. First of all, I`d like to tell you that you are a wonderful mother. I wish more women as mothers would emulate you.

GRACE: You know what? I keep feeling like I`m getting on-the-job training. I`m constantly trying to read books, but they`re not helping. Go ahead. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also, my prayer goes out to the Anthony family. My question is, when she goes into her attorneys` offices, are they recording the conversations that she`s having with them?

GRACE: I`m sure they are not. They wouldn`t want those things uncovered. Anything she`s saying to the attorney is covered by the attorney-client privilege and can never be repeated -- unless their spokesperson accidentally lets it slip, like he did on national television, stating that Caylee is dead.

Now, today, I understand -- back to Kathi Belich -- that the mouthpiece says the media -- that would be CNN Headline News -- committed fraud, like it was a big TV hoax, that he really didn`t say that?

BELICH: Yes. He sent a release out again today saying that some reporters were purposely misleading the media, purposely misleading the public. He said that he blames CNN for releasing a fraudulent copy of what he said. And then he went on to say there is no evidence that Caylee is dead. And he basically, you know, made some comments about the media that were very insulting, as usual.

GRACE: Kathi, you know what? Let`s listen. Let`s listen to what the mouthpiece had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We hear Cindy all the time now, even still just days ago and just yesterday, you know, still -- sounded like she`s still drinking the Casey Kool-Aid. But I think George has finally said, you know, Enough is enough here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very serious case involving not just the loss of the life of this little girl, but the loss of whatever is going to happen with Casey Anthony. And for a gentleman to sit on a show, on a national show, and make a remark like Caylee -- what did he call it, cocktail or whatever he said -- Kool-Aid, Casey Kool-Aid -- I mean, making fun of something like this isn`t what anybody should be doing, especially if they`re professionals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So bottom line -- back out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the jail in Orlando -- the mouthpiece for the defense is stating that somehow, Headline News edited what he said on live TV? That`s absolutely impossible. It went out on the airwaves live. Nobody edited that.

LANCE: That`s right. And in the previous release that he had released prior to the one today, he was saying that it was edited and taken out of context. However, we have heard both sides of the argument that were played on Headline News. And it is a live show, just as you stated, Nancy, so there was no editing that went on.

GRACE: And very quickly, we learned that Texas Equusearch is headed back to Orlando to pick up the search for little Caylee. Is that true? To Mandy Albritton, the deputy director.

MANDY ALBRITTON, DEPUTY DIR., TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: That`s correct, Nancy. We`ll be back in Orlando, starting the search again on November 8. That`s a Saturday morning.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony, wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

KOVACH: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car and everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid consultant on the defense team for tot mom Casey Anthony. Koby (ph), I understand that it`s going to be impossible for the defense to do their own air samples, like the ones taken in Oak Ridge`s body farm, because the car has been stripped down.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, I`ll tell you something else. The strategy might very well be to challenge the validity of that air testing. Sometimes it`s not in the best interests of the defense to try to repeat a procedure, especially if you`re questioning the reliability. So this is a matter of strategy.

GRACE: I think what he just said, Penny Douglas Furr, is that if the defense did their own test and they got the same results, they`d be up the creek without a paddle, so it`s better to sit back and throw stones at the state`s testing.

FURR: Well, if the tests are accurate, why did they strip the car? Why didn`t they leave the car the way it was...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Because they stripped it to perform additional searches? Pretty obvious.

FURR: Well, why didn`t they let the defense come in and do their tests before they stripped the car? Did they invite the defense attorney to do his own testing?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t minimize any of this. You have a very dangerous group of people dealing in narcotics. They have forced their way into the home under the ruse of being law enforcement. They`ve kidnapped a 6-year- old boy, took him out of his home. His whereabouts are unknown.

These are extremely dangerous people. We have said it yesterday, we`re saying it again. This is as bad as it gets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just really hard to have one of our baby out there with strangers. And he`s a very, very good boy.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Here`s little Cole Puffinburger. Police say a couple of men posing as police officers burst into his family`s home on Wednesday, tied up Cole`s mom and fiance, then kidnapped the boy.

Now police are naming the boy`s grandfather as a person of interest. His name, Clemens Tinnemeyer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Where is 6-year-old Cole Puffinberger?

Straight out to Michelle Sigona -- Michelle, with "America`s Most Wanted," it`s my understanding he was taken from the home, the family left bound behind?

Do I have Michelle with me?

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Yes. Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

SIGONA: Hi.

GRACE: Give me an update, please.

SIGONA: Absolutely. This happened on Wednesday morning, Nancy, October 15th, just after 7:00 in the morning and from what investigators tell me is that there were two possibly three suspects that entered right through the front door. There`s an unlocked door of Coles home. They go inside and they start asking for Cole`s grandfather.

But the funny thing is, is that Cole`s grandfather hasn`t lived there since May of 2007. The mom actually had no clue where the grandfather has been, especially for the last month, because she hasn`t talked to him since August.

And actually the family has filed a missing person`s report just recently for Cole`s grandfather. His last name is Tinnemeyer, first name Clemens. And so -- excuse me I`m sorry.

And I just want to mention that after these folks went in there and they couldn`t get what they wanted, they wanted money at this time, that`s what they snatched up Cole and they went on the run.

GRACE: To Ky Plaskon with -- excuse me, KXNT, I understand a person of interest has emerged.

KY PLASKON, REPORTER, KXNT NEWS RADIO: Yes. That`s the grandfather that she was just talking about. This is not just a little bit of money that they are looking for. They are looking for millions of dollars. And it`s drug money. It`s methamphetamine money.

He was involved with some kind of a ring, a methamphetamine ring, and these guys come in associated with this ring, looking for him, looking for this money. They know that he has been missing since September 11th. That`s when that report came in, that he was gone somewhere, the family didn`t know where he was.

They didn`t find him, they didn`t find the money, they took the kid. Now this kid is worth tens of millions of dollars to this drug cartel.

One of the things that the police have said here is that a message sent, message received. Who is sending the message? The drug cartel. Who is sending the message? The drug cartel. Who`s receiving the message? Well, that would be all of us here.

Hopefully the police want us to find this guy now, this grandfather, and he`s got a couple of different vehicles out there. He`s got a Valencia 2006 motor home that he could be in. He also could be in a Dodge white 2004 extended cab pickup.

I passed four signs on my way down here, AMBER Alert signs, looking for this truck in particular. And supposedly, they are spread out throughout California, throughout New Mexico, Arizona, and certainly throughout southern Nevada here.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have interviewed dozens of people. We have created dozens of leads and established several very significant persons of interest.

One such person is Clemens Fred Tinnemeyer. The individual in this photograph is Cole`s grandfather. This is the individual that has been involved in very significant drug dealing.

It would be no understatement to state that other members in the family are involved, as well.

Don`t minimize any of this. You have is a very dangerous group of people dealing in narcotics. They have forced their way into the home, under the ruse of being law enforcement. They have kidnapped a 6-year-old boy, took him out of his home. His whereabouts are unknown.

These are extremely dangerous people. We`ve said it yesterday, we`re saying it again. This is as bad as it gets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: How a 6-year-old little boy has somehow gotten embroiled in a Mexican drug cartel plot is incredible.

Take a look at this little boy. He`s just 6 years old. Cole Puffinburger. He`s only 3`11", 48 pounds, blonde hair, blue eyes, stained front teeth, silver-rimmed glasses. He was wearing a black sweatshirt, dark jeans, black shoes and white socks.

This little boy, taken at gunpoint, out of his family`s home. And this is what I want to know.

Back to Ky Plaskon, with KXNT News Radio. Ky, the last time the grandfather was there was when?

PLASKON: Well, what we`ve got is May 21st, that`s the last time that he was seen here in Las Vegas, August was the last time that the family had actually heard from him, and as I said, on September 11th was when they actually decided to report him missing.

Now, this is -- definitely a very dangerous group of people. They probably could have just shown up there and shot up the whole place, or blown up the house. In some ways we might be lucky that they just took the child and now want some money. And they want all of us to try and find this grandfather who supposedly has this money.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at him again, emerging as a person of interest, 51-year-old Clemens F. Tinnemeyer.

And what, Ky, was his involvement again, in a drug cartel, do we believe?

PLASKON: Well, I know a little bit about how money laundering operates and he`s believed to have possibly been involved with money laundering with this drug cartel. The -- there are trunk loads full of cash, very small bills, from drug sales in other states that are coming into the state, in trunks of cars, and then the casinos are used by folks like -- Tinnemeyer to transfer these small bills into very large bills that are very easy to smuggle back across the border, back to the drug cartel, the drug cartel that may be possibly looking for him now.

They would not say which drug cartel might possibly have Cole, but it is, obviously, a very dangerous one. And they are trying to narrow down which drug cartels might be operating here in the Las Vegas valley.

But as I mentioned, there are trunk loads full of cash coming in from all over the country from various cartels to transfer these small bills into very large ones to get them back to their countries of origin.

GRACE: Out to Captain Vincent Cannito with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.

Captain, thank you for being with us. What is being done? What can be done to find little Cole?

CAPT. VINCENT CANNITO, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPT.: Well, I have to tell you, since this afternoon`s press conference, our partnership with the media has just been outstanding. We have developed a number of significant leads to this point, and we are very optimistic with regards to the search for Mr. Tinnemeyer.

GRACE: Do you think there is a chance he is still alive, Captain?

CANNITO: We will absolutely not speculate on anything along those lines. It is our sincerest hopes and prayers that we find this child in good condition.

GRACE: Look at this little boy, everybody. Little 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger, taken out of his home. Why? Police now believe because his grandfather is embroiled with the Mexican drug cartel.

To Dr. Glass, to be taken out of the home must be so incredibly traumatic for this child.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Oh, it must be just awful for him. But one of the things that is little hopeful is that his father was interviewed, and said that he is the feisty little boy, and hopefully he`ll fight back and give them a run for their money, so to speak.

GRACE: Give a drug cartel a run for their money?

GLASS: Not well-chosen words. But.

GRACE: No, no.

GLASS: But basically, he`ll be very feisty, and at least he`ll maybe stick up for himself.

GRACE: OK. Sergeant Haines, we`re talking about a 6-year-old and a drug cartel.

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL: Yes. These are extremely dangerous people, and he -- God be with this kid. I feel horrible for him and his family, and hopefully the grandfather will be found quickly, so he can -- he`s the one link -- he`s the one link that could hopefully.

GRACE: You`re right. You`re right.

HAINES: . identify these people.

GRACE: He is the only link.

Everybody, as we go to break, congratulations to Georgia friends of the show, Clay and Elizabeth, welcoming their newest little crime fighter, Emma Hope. Look at her, getting lots of cuddling and attention from big sister Katherine and grandparents, Dr. William and Patty Oliver.

And at your request, here are pictures of the twins. I hope you like them. I`ll post them on the Web tonight.

Here`s Lucy at music class with her big brother, John David, and her grandmother. She is actually climbing a rope. With his father. Lucy. John David. And that`s from her grandmother Lynn, their new toys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There is still no trace of a 6-year-old boy kidnapped from his Las Vegas home early Wednesday morning. Police say Cole Puffinburger`s family was involved in the illegal drug trade, and his abductors were after significant money and drugs.

Las Vegas police said two men first identified themselves as police officers, tried to gain entry to the home, and then demanded money before kidnapping the youngster. The 6-year-old is described as 3`11", weighing 48 pounds, he has blonde hair, blue eyes, and as you can sigh, silver- rimmed glasses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very clear message -- the act of kidnapping this child. Tinnemeyer has stolen a large sum of money, all proceeds from illegal drug activity. They wanted to send a very clear message. Message sent, message received. They got the attention of an entire nation. We will not stop looking for this child.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Peggy in Iowa. Hi, Peggy. I think I`ve got Peggy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you, and I -- you know, I have been trying for months to get on your show.

GRACE: Well, welcome, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I have a question and a comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First my comment is, you are an advocate and you are my hero. What -- it`s like all these little children are just like Caylee Anthony. All these children suffer for what the parents or grandparents do.

GRACE: They certainly are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it`s a real shame. And my question is, Hon, they said that the mother and the fiance were gagged and bound with like zip ties or something?

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did they notify police?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted," how did they?

SIGONA: Well, if I`m not mistaken, Nancy, actually one of them were able to notify police, but, again, police are not saying for sure exactly the details what went on inside of the house.

But I can tell you that I did speak with Tinnemeyer`s -- a neighbor of his of more than a decade and what the neighbor tells me is that Tinnemeyer would often walk his grandson to kindergarten every day, and that he and his wife cared very much for this child and that they actually watched him during the daytime hours.

So if there is something that happens to this child, one would think and one would imagine, based on this conversation that I had with the neighbor that`s known him for a long time, that he is actually probably pretty concerned if he`s still around himself.

But, again, he is still missing.

GRACE: To Ky Plaskon with KXNT, what can you tell us?

PLASKON: It was an extremely dramatic situation. Nothing angers police more than somebody showing up at a door and pretending to be a cop. That`s what these guys did. She opened up the door, just a little bit, possibly and they just shoved their way right in.

As the caller said, they were bound, they were gagged, and according to a neighbor who heard some kind of screaming down the block, the mother managed to claw her way out of that house, and into her driveway, and scream out loud. And neighbors heard her and came to the rescue and called 911 right away, I believe, about 7:25 in the morning.

GRACE: To Stephanie in Nevada, hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question, do they know if the mom had anything to do with it? Did the mom know that the grandfather was involved with that, or maybe if she or maybe the fiance was involved in the drugs along with the father?

GRACE: Ky, what do we know?

PLASKON: Well, apparently, everybody in the family, as far as knew -- and know knew that the -- grandfather was involved in some kind of drug dealing. And everybody is being looked at, according to police. Everybody except for the father, who just showed up out of nowhere, and was extremely upset by this.

But everybody in the family, including apparently Clemens Fred Tinnemeyer has a wife, as well, and she even knew. We got a caller at KXNT this morning that said that the family had shunned drugs, because of how involved Clemens was in the drug trade.

GRACE: To Kobe -- Dr. Koblinsky, what kind of forensic clues could we get from the scene, quickly?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: It`s a good question. I think the ligatures, the plastic restraints, could very well have -- at least partial fingerprints, and possibly even DNA.

And there may be other fingerprints, other types of evidence in the home. That is critical evidence, because that could lead to the identity of somebody, some person. I was in.

GRACE: Yes.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I was in Mexico about a month ago, training the police there, 11 people were murdered as a result of drugs. Last year, 3,000 people were murdered due to the drug cartel.

GRACE: Quickly, to the lawyers, Penny Douglass Furr, Randy Kessler.

Randy, I.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: OK, I think Randy can`t hear us. Let`s try Penny.

Penny, I fully believe the family should be charged, too, if they exposed their child to drug trafficking?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If they knew about it, definitely, Nancy. But those drug dealers have one reason to keep this child alive, and that`s to find the grandfather. So I think they need -- we need to find the grandfather, and they want their money. They will only release this child if they get their money.

GRACE: And now, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN HEROES.

SUSAN SARANDON, ACTRESS: When I first met Rose, I was just so taken by her heart. She`s the story of the power of forgiveness.

I`m Susan Sarandon, and my hero fights for the survival and resettlement of refugees.

ROSE MAPENDO, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: I had seven children with me and my husband. I never, never thought that genocide can be happen in Congo. The truth, all the men that were killed, they put us in the prison, they were so angry for God.

When they found out I was pregnant, I said, God, accept my life, forgive me, I forgive those enemy. I amend my sins after the commanders tried to kill us, that day is the day I survive.

SARANDON: She`s dedicated her whole life to saving these refugees that have fallen through the cracks with Mapendo.

MAPENDO: Mapendo International is my heart, is my answer for my prayer.

SARANDON: What Rose has done is shown a great capacity to move on and to forgive and to embrace life.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com/heroes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today an experience (INAUDIBLE) grand jury has heard sworn testimony, and they returned a seven-count indictment against Casey Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. An Orange County grand jury has indicted tot mom Casey Anthony for first-degree murder. And as a result the 22- year-old tot mom could be facing the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It only took 30 minutes for this grand jury to decide that Casey Anthony should be charged with first-degree murder.

GRACE: You know it`s still amazing to me that throughout this entire ordeal never once have we heard her make a public plea for people to help her find her child.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Take a look at this picture of the boy. This is who police are looking for. They say that as many as three men knocked on the family`s door in Las Vegas yesterday morning. They claimed to be cops. The mom opened the door because of that. And that`s when these men burst in and demanded money.

When the intruders didn`t find any money, police say they tied up Cole`s mother and her fiance and they kidnapped Cole at gunpoint.

GRACE: I just heard a statement that somehow somebody in the home at some point in the past may have been involved in drugs. What do you know?

CANNITO: This is definitely a situation that is initiated due to a drug nexus.

GRACE: I`m sick that the conduct of adults.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army First Lieutenant Timothy Cunningham, 26, College Station, Texas, killed Iraq. Left studies at Texas A&M to attend West Point. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Army Service Ribbon and Ranger Tab.

Loved family, country, God. Leaves behind parents John and Cindy, three sisters, one brother, also serving in Iraq, widow and high school sweetheart Samantha, baby girl Abigail.

Timothy Cunningham, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/17/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Search for Caylee Back On

Aired October 20, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. The search for Caylee is back on. After suddenly pulling out of Orlando with no cooperation from the Anthony family, Texas Equusearch is convinced they can help, heading back to Florida to pick up the search for little Caylee, and this time with back-up. A Sacramento bounty hunter rounds up fellow bounty hunters from across the country to join forces with Equusearch and find little Caylee. Key target, heavily- wooded areas near the Orlando International Airport and near the Anthony home.

This as mom Casey still under protective custody in a private jail cell, sleeping, reading, eating and lounging all day, according to reports. She pleads not guilty to murder one, as the defense team assembles itself, including a death penalty defense attorney, a veteran in the courtroom. Although mom Casey allowed to have photos in her jail cell, not one photo of Caylee on display. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony awaits her day in court on charges of murder, manslaughter and aggravated child abuse, investigators say they will continue to search for the remains of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl, living the "Sex and the City" lifestyle, with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida. Accused of murdering her daughter, Caylee, to free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself not only childless but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then everybody else can see in. this case, not by choice, the girl who posed for photos like this is on display 24/7.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has gone so far downhill, this has become such a mess, we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew, had any sense of where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While Casey Anthony still refuses to cooperate with authorities and give them any clues as to her daughter`s whereabouts, Anthony`s lawyers are finalizing the defense team, hoping to keep the tot mom off of death row.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a 6-year-old little boy kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family left bound and gagged behind, 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger found alive -- repeat, alive -- wandering alone on the Vegas strip. Police and feds confirm the boy`s kidnap connected to a notorious Mexican drug cartel and millions of dollars stolen. As we go to air, a second arrest goes down, the manhunt still on for the other suspects in the kidnap of 6-year-old little Cole.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cole Puffinburger has been found. He is safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you so much for helping me find my son!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four days after police say men posing as police officers stormed into Cole`s house, tied up his mother and her fiance and kidnapped him, the 48-pound, blue-eyed blond has come home, police saying it was all triggered by Cole`s grandfather, who`s now being held as a material witness, that he stole millions from drug traffickers from Mexico, then disappeared, and that those dealers had resorted to violence to get it back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just moments ago, the FBI announced a woman was taken into custody in the abduction of 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger. Terry Levi (ph), the girlfriend of Cole`s grandfather, Clemens Tinnemeyer, is considered a material witness in the case, and both were scheduled to appear in federal court today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their search for Cole`s kidnappers and their investigation into the drug operation are far from over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every person involved in this family, in this investigation, friends -- there`s a very vast network out there that are under review right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New developments in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Investigators with the Orange County sheriff`s office say they will continue to search for Caylee Marie, hoping to find clues that could lead to the remains of the young child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s alone about 20 hours a day in her cell. She eats alone there. Today, it was corn flakes for breakfast, turkey hot dogs and beans for lunch, Salisbury steak, gravy and potatoes for dinner. She does get dessert three times a day, if she wants. She can have photographs on her shelf in her cell, but we are told there are no photographs, not even of Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla has announced his intention to return to Florida to assist Texas Equusearch in their hunt to find little Caylee. As tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team prepares to go to trial, Anthony remains behind bars on no bond after being indicted for capital murder, aggravated manslaughter, aggravated child abuse and four other charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Suddenly, Equusearch is coming back to search. Why the about-face?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: I talked to Leonard Padilla over the weekend by phone, and he says he will team up with Equusearch starting November 8. They will have a massive search in the -- around an area near the Orlando airport, a heavily wooded area where they couldn`t get to a couple of weeks ago because of storms, water left over by Tropical Storm Fay. They are going to find Caylee Anthony one way or another. Leonard Padilla has reached out to other bail bondsmen, saying, Come to Orlando, we need your help. This is going to be a massive search, at least a thousand people being involved, Nancy.

GRACE: But why the about-face? We just heard right here on our show a couple of days ago from Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch, that he was pulling up stakes because of lack of cooperation from the Anthony family. Now about-face. Why?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think what has happened over the past couple of days is Tim Miller from Equusearch had other fish to fry. He had other cases to go on. He`s already spent $44,000 on this search, and now with the help of Leonard Padilla and his bail bondsmen friends and thousands of people, they are going to find something one way or another. And I think that`s what changed Tim`s mind.

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. What can you tell us, Kathi?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, I talked with Mr. Miller actually a few days ago when he said he was coming back here, and he said that he thinks there`s still a lot of interest in finding Caylee. As you just heard, he`s expecting a thousand people. And finances were probably a concern, as well. And now that Leonard Padilla is going to help raise the money for that, I think he`s changed his mind and he`s coming back.

GRACE: I want to find out about this new defense team. What can you tell me, Kathi Belich?

BELICH: Well, Baez`s PR person put out a release today saying they`re still getting that together They`re not making any comments. But there`s a new attorney, a south Florida attorney, who is death-qualified, who visited Casey over the weekend in jail Saturday night. His name is Terence Michael Lenamon, and he has handled a couple of high-profile cases in south Florida. Again, Baez won`t say whether he`s part of the team yet or not.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at who he has represented in the past. Here`s Delhall. That was about the murder of a witness in a case involving a victim. There you see that person. He got the death penalty. Cesar Mena, convicted of murder and attempted second degree murder. Next case. Oh, yes, that was a teenage couple, that he raped the young lady and killed both her and the boyfriend. And here is Braddy. He murdered the mom and left a 5-year-old little girl on Alligator Alley. The little girl, the 5- year-old, was eaten and killed by alligators.

Now, these are the people this guy has represented. Agree, disagree, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: ... the baddest of the bad, I`ll tell you that. I was looking over those cases, and they`re just horrendous cases. That`s what happens in south Florida. And he has an interesting case right here, if he decides to take the -- take the case, because she has not talked. There`s a problem with credibility. And this thing has had a lot of media play, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. But right now, take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl, living the "Sex and the City" lifestyle with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida. Accused of murdering her daughter Caylee to, free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself not only childless but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then everybody else can see in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one has privacy in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s alone about 20 hours a day in her cell. She eats alone there. Today, it was corn flakes for breakfast, turkey hot dogs and beans for lunch, Salisbury steak, gravy and potatoes for dinner. She does get dessert three times a day, if she wants. She can have photographs on her shelf in her cell, but we are told there are no photographs, not even of Caylee. No one in her family has asked to visit her over the last week, and she`s made no phone calls. It`s no party here for Casey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I guess not. To Kathi Belich, joining us from WFTV. Is it true, the reports that she eats, sleeps, reads and lounges all day long?

BELICH: That`s -- it is true. That`s about all she does. I understand she has three meals a day. I couldn`t find out whether she eats everything, but she has the option of having dessert three times a day. And she basically spends the day by herself. She has recreation for an hour a day, again alone, whatever she wants to do. Yes, she`s pretty much lounging, reading and sleeping all day long.

GRACE: Now, what can you tell me about the fact that she`s allowed to have photos up, but nothing of little Caylee?

BELICH: Yes, she has a shelf that`s on the wall and a desk in her cell, and she`s allowed to have photos in that cell, on that desk, on that shelf, and she has no photos at all. No photos of Caylee in there.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You`re my hero. I love you.

GRACE: Thank you. I certainly do not deserve that. But thank you. What is your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will it make it harder to seek the death penalty against Casey without Caylee`s body, which she very much desires?

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss out of New York, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, and Christopher Amolsch out of Washington. Susan?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: It will make it more difficult, but I don`t think it will make it impossible. Look, these aren`t the bars that Casey is used to, but she`ll have a long time to get used to them now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony, wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

PAUL KOVACH, TIPSTER: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car and everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is going through a nightmare.

CASEY ANTHONY: There`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has a missing child.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is. I`m absolutely petrified.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: My focus is always on my granddaughter. It always will be.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: It just seemed like -- from our perspective, it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer, which is not...

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child!

CASEY ANTHONY: I just want my daughter back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony awaits her day in court on charges of murder, manslaughter and aggravated child abuse, investigators say they will continue to search for the remains of little Caylee. Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla says he will be returning to Orlando to assist for the search of the toddler, last seen by her grandfather on June 16. While Casey Anthony still refuse to say cooperate with authorities and give them any clues as to her daughter`s whereabouts, Anthony`s lawyers are finalizing the defense team, hoping to keep the tot mom off of death row.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Lisa in Indiana. Hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. How are you tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was -- I`m calling -- could you tell me, have anyone checked into the items that she -- that Casey bought from Target?

GRACE: What do you mean, checked into them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like, checked into where she delivered the packages, like, the paper towels and all the other stuff that she bought?

GRACE: And what significance would that be to you, Lisa? What would that mean to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I figured that she used the paper towels to clean up the murder scene.

GRACE: Interesting. What do we know about that, Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO? It`s my understanding that the shopping spree was well after when police believe little Caylee was murdered.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, that was actually closer to when she was arrested. And one of the things we do know is a lot of times, she would show up at her boyfriend`s house with bags of groceries. We know at least on two or three occasions that she did that. So as far as what happened to each individual thing that we -- that she bought, we don`t know about that. But we do know she would a lot of times show up at her boyfriend`s house with groceries.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s go back to the lawyers with Angie in Virginia`s question, Susan Moss out of New York, child advocate, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle Anne Bremner, and Christopher Amolsch, defense attorney out of Washington, D.C. To Anne Bremner. The question was, will it be harder, more difficult to get the death penalty if little Caylee`s remains are never found? Thoughts?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. She does not want to pick an attorney for the damned (ph), Nancy, and she needs to have somebody that has not only death penalty experience but doesn`t have their own memorial wing on death row. That`s the first thing.

But no body? Weaker case. Everyone says you can prosecute without a body, but none of us can deny that that is a tougher case for the prosecution. And with the search still going -- whether it`s rescue mission or recovery, a search is ongoing, and that`s going to be a tough go for the prosecution with a good defense lawyer at the helm.

GRACE: Amolsch?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Forget the death penalty, they`re going to have a hard time getting a murder conviction at all. I mean, there is just no evidence that she killed her little girl at all. None. It`s all speculation.

GRACE: OK. Yes, let me see Amolsch. So you don`t believe in cadaver dogs or -- I personally trained at Oak ridge Labs in Tennessee, where the body farm is located, and it is the cutting edge of technology. You don`t believe that, either. There was a dead body in that car, so who do you think it was, Christopher?

AMOLSCH: Well, maybe there was a dead body, but it necessarily wasn`t her daughter. And we don`t even know...

GRACE: Oh, OK.

AMOLSCH: ... that that`s what the dog alerted on. We know the dog alerted on something.

GRACE: Please put Amolsch back up. I actually want to see him as he suggests...

AMOLSCH: Yes. Absolutely.

GRACE: ... there`s another dead person in the trunk.

AMOLSCH: I`m not saying -- I`m not saying that there was another dead person in the trunk. All I`m...

GRACE: Well, then, what are you saying?

AMOLSCH: What I`m saying is there is no evidence that Caylee...

GRACE: You can`t...

AMOLSCH: ... that Casey...

GRACE: You can`t claim it wasn`t Caylee and it wasn`t another dead person and you believe in science.

AMOLSCH: What I can say -- what I can say is that there`s no proof that Casey is the one who did it.

GRACE: OK. So...

AMOLSCH: There`s no proof that Casey is the one that did it.

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you this, OK? You`ve got three choices. It was Caylee`s dead body, it was another person`s dead body, or you do not believe in the science at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, crime lab and cadaver dogs.

AMOLSCH: Those aren`t the only choices.

GRACE: Give me another choice.

AMOLSCH: They have to prove that Casey did it.

GRACE: No, no! No!

AMOLSCH: ... not that Caylee`s dead.

GRACE: No, no! No! No!

AMOLSCH: They have to prove that...

GRACE: Amolsch!

AMOLSCH: ... Casey did it.

GRACE: Hey! Listen!

AMOLSCH: I understand your question...

GRACE: What`s the other choice?

AMOLSCH: The other question -- the question...

GRACE: Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh...

AMOLSCH: ... the way that you phrased it...

GRACE: The other choice!

AMOLSCH: That isn`t the only question, though.

GRACE: No, you said there are other choices. What are they?

AMOLSCH: The other choice is that she didn`t do it.

GRACE: No, no! No, no!

AMOLSCH: That doesn`t mean that Caylee`s not dead...

GRACE: No, no~!

AMOLSCH: ... and it wasn`t her body in the car...

GRACE: That is an argument, Mr. Amolsch...

AMOLSCH: ... but that she didn`t do it.

GRACE: Let`s deal with the facts. The facts are that a cadaver dog hit on the trunk, that the body farm, which is Oak Ridge lab, Tennessee, crime lab, says that there was human -- there were human remains. There is a hair in the back that has a death band on it, according to reports. That proves to many scientists that the hair is from a deceased body. Now, either it was Caylee, it was somebody else, or you do not accept the science. You said there`s another choice. What would that choice be?

AMOLSCH: What the other choice would be is that let`s assume that it is Caylee. That doesn`t mean that Casey did it, which is really...

GRACE: I didn`t say that.

AMOLSCH: ... the central question here.

GRACE: I didn`t say that.

AMOLSCH: What I said...

GRACE: I asked you...

AMOLSCH: ... was the government is going to have...

GRACE: You said there were...

AMOLSCH: ... a hard time proving...

GRACE: ... other choices, and I`d like to hear what they are.

AMOLSCH: The other choices are Casey didn`t do it.

GRACE: OK...

AMOLSCH: She is on the trial for the murder of her daughter.

GRACE: Mr. Amolsch, thanks a lot.

AMOLSCH: That doesn`t mean her daughter...

GRACE: But just repeating the same incorrect answer isn`t really helping. What about it, Susan Moss?

MOSS: Juries understand and believe in science. Not only do you have the cadaver dogs hits, not only do you have the death band in the hair, not only do you have the decomposing body in the air, but you have a person of interest who has lied from day one. She left without even taking a single piece of clothing of her daughter~!

GRACE: Now, let`s move on to Christopher Amolsch`s next hypothesis, which actually is true. If there -- if it was Caylee, the state`s got to prove it, obviously, Anne Bremner.

BREMNER: Yes.

GRACE: Now, since she was last seen with child, what would your scenario be as a defense attorney about how the child was killed?

BREMNER: Well, you know, as a defense attorney in this case, I would try a reasonable doubt case, Nancy. I would not put my client on the stand, and I would simply say the state has to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. And Nancy...

GRACE: OK. So that`s your whole strategy.

BREMNER: No, it`s not my whole strategy. I want to say, in my next life, I want to come back as one of your callers and not one of your guests because you are tough, Nancy, but -- and we all know that, but...

GRACE: Coming from you, I`ll take that as a compliment. Amolsch...

BREMNER: It is a compliment.

GRACE: ... what would your strategy be?

BREMNER: My strategy would...

AMOLSCH: I`m sorry. Is that for me, Nancy?

BREMNER: Oh, I`m sorry. Go ahead.

AMOLSCH: Was that for me? I`m sorry. Was that for me?

BREMNER: It was, I think.

AMOLSCH: I`m sorry. I think she`s exactly right, but the problem is her lawyer has said that we`re going to hear from Casey about what really happened, so I`m not sure she can`t go on the stand at this point.

GRACE: She absolutely cannot go on the stand. She`d be ruined on cross-exam. He should not have committed to that up front...

AMOLSCH: I agree.

GRACE: ... but the jury will never know that.

AMOLSCH: I agree.

GRACE: The jury won`t know that he blurted that out, will they, Christopher?

AMOLSCH: Well, they`re going to read the newspapers and watch your show, like everybody else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says he wanted to see if the woman needed help, but his friend would only slow down as the woman walked out of the wooded area wearing a large straw hat, where a bridge of old tires is the only access to railroad tracks, very secluded railroad tracks.

KOVACH: That area right there is where she was coming out of the woods with a shovel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. Caylee is likely dead. She`s not as much a victim as little Caylee.

Out to bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, Leonard Padilla, who is rounding up other bounty hunters to come search for little Caylee. Leonard, why the about-face with Equusearch? Why are they coming back? And what prompted you to join them?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I think there was a lot of weather conditions that were involved. And basically, in discussing this thing with Tim, we`re going to make what we consider to be an optimum search. We`re going to have Nick Savage (ph) from the FBI working with us. We`re going to have the ping masters out of the sheriff`s office working with us. And let me tell you, if everybody that listens to you was to send in $5 to you, Nancy Grace at CNN, for Tim Miller, that would be -- that`d put him over the top as far as the finances that he needs because that`s where he`s hurting sometimes, in the financing of this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl, living the sex-in-the-city lifestyle, with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida.

Accused of murdering her daughter, Caylee, to free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself, not only childless, but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then, everybody else can see in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one has privacy in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony, wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk. She darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car, and everything.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are taking your calls live. Out to Mandy Albritton, the deputy director of Texas Equusearch, of course, we`re all thrilled that Texas Equusearch is coming back to search for little Caylee, doing an about-face.

If people want to contribute, Mandy, how would they do that?

MANDY ALBRITTON, DEPT. DIRECTOR, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, SEARCHING FOR MISSING CAYLEE: Well, Nancy, they`re welcome to go to our Web site at www -- hello, www.txeq.com, and donate there.

GRACE: And tell me, what prompted Tim to decide to come back and resume the search?

ALBRITTON: Well, we never finished our search the first time we were out. There was 30 to 35 percent of our search area under water. That was a big factor in it. Also, Mr. Padilla helping finance the search has helped us continue.

GRACE: So Leonard, how many people do you think you can round up?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING IN SEARCH FOR CAYLEE: I`m hoping to round up 500 people out of the bail bond industry. So far, at least 20 or 30 without prompting have called and said, "When are you going to be back there?" And I said I`ll be back to 5th or the 6th of November.

And so far, like I said, we`ve had 30 or 40 phone calls. I`m hoping for at least 500 out of the United States, out of the bail bond industry, and bounty hunters, I`m just really hoping that that`s what we`ll get.

GRACE: To Dr. David M. Posey joining us out of L.A., he`s a medical examiner and forensic pathologist with the Glen Oaks Pathology Medical Group.

Dr. Posey, thank you for being with us. What are the dangers to the remains with people searching for them, out in the wilderness?

DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: Well, I think the biggest problem is an unexperienced (sic) investigator could disturb the remains and disturb the scene.

So if they come on something that might be suspicious, you know, note it -- if they have a camera, photographing, going -- get an authority who used to examining the scene and take them there.

Just -- the thing is do no harm by moving nothing, because once you disturb a scene, you can never put the scene back exactly the way it was.

GRACE: And Dr. Posey, at this point, after the heavy, heavy flooding in that area, if the remains had been out in the open, what would you expect to find now?

POSEY: I think with weather conditions here in the last couple of months, I think there could be a great deal of deterioration, especially if she was out in the open.

The water conditions, wet heat, the body was going to decay and decompose much more rapidly. Availability to the animals. So I think the body could be separated in many pieces, scattered over a large area.

GRACE: But to Brian Reich, deputy chief out of the Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, at this point, they`re left with either the volunteers that Equusearch and Leonard Padilla are rounding up or nothing. So, you know, it`s either volunteer manpower, people that are not experts in searching, or nothing.

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Yes, and - - that`s the situation we`re in, but it`s very, very important, like the doctor just said, that the people that are out there searching get some kind of briefing and some training. What to do if you come across something you feel has evidentiary value, that they don`t disturb it, that they also document the chain of custody.

Once they find something that could have some value, it`s very important that they document the exact location, the time, who found it, and then continue with that chain of custody, so that it can be turned over to the authorities and the chain of custody and all of the evidentiary value is maintained.

GRACE: To Bill in Florida, hi, Bill. Oh-oh, hold on. No Bill. Connie -- do I have Bill now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`m here.

GRACE: Hi, Bill, what`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a little quick question. I can`t see her just doing this, you know, out of the blue at her age. I wonder what led up to this being a child, maybe. Well, my comment is, I have children. And I don`t care if they`re 1 or 21, I always think about when I go to a store.

And what day was she shopping into reference of when they think their child was gone? Because I think if there`s anything in that bag -- in that basket from her from Wal-Mart or whatever, if approximate there is nothing in there for her child, then it`s over. She knew it was over. She never.

GRACE: Bill, you are so correct.

I`m going to go back to Mark Williams at WNDB. You know, Mark, this weekend, I went shopping. It was all at Toys R Us.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes.

GRACE: You know, the thought of me going to get, what? Clothes? A shoe? For what? When you have children, that`s what you want to -- that`s what you want to shop for. There was not one thing in her bag for little Caylee.

WILLIAMS: Yes, we saw the receipt that she got, and it was all for either herself or her boyfriend. And I talked to a lot of people over the past couple of days, Nancy, and they can`t believe that whenever they go shopping, whether it`s a piece of gum, a piece of candy or whatever, they always get something for the child, for their child.

But there was nothing here. And you know, an investigator called her "cold as a cucumber."

GRACE: And -- the caller also mentioned, she didn`t just do this out of the blue. To

Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author of "When to Worry," joining us out of San Diego. Dr. Boesky, thank you for being with us. But the reality is, a lot of killers have no record, no criminal history, they -- they don`t have an obvious troubled childhood.

Look at Scott Peterson. His parents doted on him.

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO WORRY": Well, that`s the thing. There is two types of killers that we see. One are the type that come from horrible, horrific backgrounds, a lot of abuse, sometimes satanic rituals, a lot of abandonment.

That doesn`t appear to be the case here.

The other type we see is we`re not sure if they`re actually born this way, where they actually are colder, more callous, they don`t have the emotional reactions, and they don`t have the empathy that other people have. They can`t relate to other people. They don`t feel other people`s pain. They`re all about themselves.

GRACE: So that -- unlike what the caller said, there`s no indication she was ever mistreated as a child.

In fact, Kathi Belich with WFTV, you have this look of her life behind bars, and now we learn the only person that`s put money in her account is her father, 50 bucks, for her to get things out of the vending machines and all.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. They`re still standing by her now and going into a little more about why this happened. We have information that it may have been as simple as a vacation she wanted to go on in Puerto Rico in July.

Back in March her friends were planning this vacation, and she wasn`t able to go, because, apparently, she wasn`t able to find a babysitter. And if you remember, back in March, that`s when she started looking up missing children`s Web sites, you know.

GRACE: You know, Kathi, her life behind bars now, explain to me again why she is still under protective custody.

BELICH: The jail says she sort of has celebrity status and when they have someone like that who`s very high-profile, they don`t want a disruption in the jail. They think it`s for her own safety, as well as the safety of the other inmates. They just don`t want disruption and that`s why.

She`s not getting special treatment. She`s just being kept away from anyone, so there is no disruption.

GRACE: Well, Leonard Padilla, a bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, first put up her bond, to me, her life behind bars isn`t that much different from her life at home. She lays around all day, eating, reading, sleeping and lounging. She never worked.

I think I`ve got Padilla with me. Leonard Padilla, are you there?

PADILLA: Yes, I`m here, yes. I was just thinking, you know, of the statement that you just made, because when we were there with her at the time, the young lady that was with her basically described her life as just sitting around, not doing anything.

The fact is, the night that -- I just remembered. The night that my nephew actually posted the bond for her, she went into the kitchen, and she fixed him dinner.

GRACE: Who -- wait. Who went into the kitchen and fixed dinner?

PADILLA: Casey fixed my nephew dinner when he was filling out the paperwork for her bond, the same evening that he bonded her out. And I thought to myself, if it was the first time that somebody hits the street after being in jail for 30 days and you`re accused of killing your child, how can you go in there and fix the bondsman dinner that just got you out of jail?

GRACE: Well, she is icy cold.

PADILLA: It`s impetuous.

GRACE: That`s one thing. And I don`t know if the jury would pick up on that.

Everybody, the search set to resume, but quickly, to tonight`s case alert. The search for a 20-year-old woman vanishing, Greenville, North Carolina.

Ashley Hawley -- take a look -- last seen Wednesday, around midnight, orange t-shirt, blue pants. Family unable to contact her ever since. She is 5`7", 140 pounds.

Take a look, if you have info, please call the Greenville police, 252- 329-4335.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just a blessing that this child has been found, and he`s in extremely good condition.

This investigation has been about a kidnapping. It has been about a 6-year-old child who was taken from his home in a very violent fashion. Now that that child has been found, the focus of this investigation has shifted to drug dealing, extortion.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators say they believe that Cole`s kidnapping was in retaliation for some actions taken by his grandfather. They believe that he stole millions of dollars from drug traffickers from Mexico.

They want to know much more about that operation. They also are out there still looking for Cole`s kidnappers.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Another arrest, the girl friend of Clemens Tinnemeyer, Cole`s grandfather, brought in in a federal warrant in Riverside, California.

ROBERT PUFFINBURGER, MISSING BOY`S FATHER: I`m just glad he`s safe and he`s -- back home and in the right hands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, I want to make it very clear. The entire time that we were investigating this kidnapping, that`s exactly what this case was about -- was a kidnapping.

As we progressed in our investigation, we`ve all heard the information coming out about the drug dealing and the people that are involved, and all of the other side bar issues that we`ve been addressing.

The investigation regarding this child is concluded. The remainder of the investigation shifts, and our focus now goes on to the drug dealing, to potential extortion issues, as well as other issues certainly that are involved in this investigation at this time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Ky Plaskon with KXNT News Radio, Ky, it is a miracle, this little 6-year-old boy taken out of his home, his family left behind, bound and gagged, has been found alive, wandering the Vegas strip.

Tell me what happened.

KY PLASKON, REPORTER, KXNT NEWS RADIO: Well, he wasn`t actually out on the Vegas strip. He was found on a side street, it was about five miles or so from the Las Vegas strip or so. A very dark street, residential neighborhood, a pretty nice neighborhood for being as close to the strip as it is.

Apparently, he was there about 10:30 in the afternoon -- at night, and a bus driver was driving up the road, saw this little kid walking down the street and he thought, oh, that`s pretty strange, I better find out what`s going on. He stopped and Cole asked him for a ride, can I have a ride?

And of course, the bus driver said yes. He called officers who happened to be just blocks away, conducting a SWAT operation. But two officers showed up immediately, found that he was in a great -- great condition. He was taken to a hospital, found to be fine there, too, and then delivered to his family.

GRACE: Ky, I heard it mentioned, extortion? Now how does that figure in?

PLASKON: I think that`s probably a better question for your legal experts, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, what are the possibilities? What do we know?

PLASKON: Well, somebody was trying to get money for this -- for this kid. So with -- we have a tendency to say that, you know, this drug cartel.

GRACE: What do you mean, somebody was trying to get money? Explain.

PLASKON: Well, he was held for ransom. So they -- were hoping to possibly get some money or find this -- the grandfather of this young boy.

GRACE: You know, that`s pretty bold, to Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author, to steal from a drug cartel?

BOESKY: Well, you know, it`s interesting. Down in Mexico, this is actually not that uncommon. I think that they may have thought, hey, let`s do this, let`s find the grandfather, get these millions of dollars.

But I have to say, Nancy, given the coverage you`ve done with Casey Anthony, I have a feeling once this kid showed up on your show and they found out the national attention, they`re like, whoa, this is a bad idea and they dropped this kid off.

GRACE: Now how did the grandfather weigh into all this, Ky Plaskon?

PLASKON: Well, he supposedly was driving around going to storage units where they had massive amounts of money. The FBI picked him up on Friday in the evening. They possibly had a bunch of storage units, staked out.

Here in Las Vegas there were also storage units that police served warrants on and found large amounts of cash. But apparently he was going to these storage units and collecting millions of dollars. He has been accused of using that money, laundering it, for the drug cartel, Nancy.

GRACE: So he was going from one spot to the next, re-claiming all this money?

PLASKON: Picking up this drug money. What I told you in the past is that often drug dealers, what they use -- they collect very small bills, collect them in large amounts and then they`ll pay somebody to come here to Las Vegas with these small bills, and put them into the slot machines and convert them into very large bills, which can be easily -- smuggled back across the border down to Mexico.

GRACE: Sources state there was $8 to $20 million at stake, and this little boy kidnapped, apparently, until the drug cartel got their money back.

Now we heard Lisa Boesky state that this is not unusual in Mexico. What about it, Brian Reich?

REICH: It`s very common in some South American countries and in Mexico. It`s not as prevalent here. But certainly, organized crime figures going after people`s families, making threats, and sending a message that you`re going to steal -- you`re going to steal from us, we can reach out and touch you.

And I think that was certainly part of the motivation in this particular case.

GRACE: So, Ky, what`s the next step, and where is the boy tonight?

PLASKON: Well, I`d like to tell you a little bit. He`s back at home, as I just said, but I`d like to tell you a little bit about.

GRACE: Well, is he with his mother or his father?

PLASKON: We believe that he is with his mother, currently.

GRACE: Go ahead.

PLASKON: Well, we have this tendency to think, OK, well, the drug dealers dropped him off on this street, he`s fine, what nice drug cartel. What we haven`t heard yet is what SWAT`s involvement was in this, and apparently this was an extraordinary operation.

Veterans of SWAT here in Las Vegas have never seen a SWAT operation this large. They -- said it was the equivalent to psychological warfare here in Las Vegas, where they had unbelievable pressure on possible drug dealers, the drug cartel here in Las Vegas, where they hit houses simultaneously, seconds apart.

They were actually on 15th Street conducting one of these operations, when Cole was found, so only a few blocks away. They put credible pressure on this group and the impression was that Metro wasn`t going to stop.

The psychological pressure was that they were telling these people in these houses what -- you`re not going to get anything for this young boy. There`s no money there anymore. You might as well just let him go. And that`s exactly what they did.

GRACE: You know there is one man we know still wanted, Jesus Gastelum, what do we know about him?

PLASKON: They`re not really telling us anything about him. They put out a picture out there and hope that we`re going to find him, just like we ended up finding Clemens. The FBI is really out in front on this. They`re the ones who were really making the arrests at the moment. The police department is just kind of putting the pictures out there.

GRACE: Right.

PLASKON: . and hoping we`re going to find them.

GRACE: It`s our information, Ky, that the little boy, Cole, is now with his father. He had been living with his mother in the same home where, apparently, the grandfather, who`s involved with the drug cartel, also had been up until May.

That is not the case tonight. He is with his father. So there`s apparently been a much-needed, apparently, change in custody.

And very quickly, Ky Plaskon, last but not least, what can you tell me about the people that actually did the kidnapping?

PLASKON: Well, we don`t know much about them at all. We don`t know anything about them at all. We`re hoping to find out in the future here from the FBI, from the police department, and from SWAT as they go through and knock down these criminals.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PUFFINBURGER: We had stopped passing out flyers for the night, you know, because we wanted to catch some news and stuff like that, and we were just sitting down and just got called and, we got him. I was like, you`ve got who? "Your son!" I was like, "All right!" And I just booked it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a definite drug nexus. We are very clear Mr. Tinnemeyer was involved in drug activity. That has been established early on in this investigation. Large amounts of cash have been involved.

As I told you the other night, several executed -- several search warrants were executed. Large amounts of cash were recovered during those search warrants.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: :Let`s unleash the lawyers, out to you, Anne Bremner, I don`t even let smokers around the twins.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: And this mom had in the home a guy who owed about $20 million to a Mexican drug cartel?

BREMNER: That`s pretty bad. You know, but the thing is, in a case like this, we have to look at who`s going to be charged, Nancy. And we look at the grandpa -- we have some pretty extensive laws since the Lindbergh kidnapping on -- kidnapping, including some very broad language on embezzling, enticing ,et cetera.

GRACE: OK. Break it down, Anne.

BREMNER: I`ll break it down.

GRACE: Are you trying to say there are going to be other charges?

BREMNER: No, I think this is kind of like a criminal law, law school exam in terms of it`s a very difficult issue.

GRACE: Susan?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. But I just hope his father goes after custody. Because if this mother knew or should have known that there was drug activity in this house, she`s equally culpable, and at the very least this child should not have the trauma of being in the place where he was kidnapped.

GRACE: Chris, I`d like to come to you, but we must leave on that note.

I want to stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Ronald Blystone, 34, Springfield, Missouri, killed Iraq, on a third tour. Awarded two Bronze Stars, two National Defense Service Medals, two Army Service Ribbons.

Once featured on the cover of "U.S. News and World Report." Never met a stranger. Loved scuba diving, football, Kansas City Chiefs, and being a dad. Leaves behind parents Alexia and Lonie, Joe, three brothers, one serving Iraq and four sisters.

Ronald Blystone, American hero.

Thanks for our guests but especially to you for being with us, and a special happy birthday to our stars, Drew, and happy birthday to our other star, Jillian, both on our staff.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/20/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Child Neglect Charge Dropped Against Casey Anthony

Aired October 21, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. The state drops charges against tot mom Casey Anthony after a Florida grand jury hands down seven-count indictment on murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter, and of course, lying to police. The state drops a major charge of child neglect. The defense has yet to file motions for a change of venue or even a speedy trial, and not a single move has been made for the defense to test any of the forensic evidence.

More money shows up in mom Casey`s jail account, clearing the way for snacks, make-up, shoes, lingerie, hair and skin care products. Also, tot mom Casey Anthony continues her routine, sleeping, reading, eating, lounging all day long in a private jail cell while the search outside goes on for her little girl. So far, Anthony`s family not making a single visit to the jail. Why? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I have no clue where she is.

I`m absolutely petrified.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After indicting tot mom Casey Anthony on capital murder and six other charges, prosecutors have decided to drop the original charge of child neglect that Anthony was arrested on back in July.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: She`s not -- one thing I know is she loves that child!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state says that Anthony was initially charged with child neglect on the grounds that Caylee was still alive. However, as the investigation moved forward and evidence was collected, it became obvious that Caylee is now likely dead.

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My granddaughter is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, Casey Anthony`s defense team has added a high-profile Miami attorney with death penalty experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a gorgeous young morning show TV anchor brutally stabbed in her own bed, left for dead. Tonight, as she clings to life, the police investigation in full force. Who attacked 26-year-old anchorwoman Anne Pressly?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends described Little Rock, Arkansas, anchorwoman Anne Pressly as a kind person, kind to everyone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tragic. She`s a wonderful person. She has a heart of gold. She`s good to everybody. And she`s touched so many lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But did she have an enemy who would leave her for dead in her own bed?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Pressly was beaten severely. She also does have some stab wounds, and these injuries are life-threatening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police want to know whether she was randomly attacked or targeted because of her celebrity status.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. The state drops charges against tot mom Casey Anthony.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee`s missing! Caylee`s missing!

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state has decided to drop the child neglect charge against tot mom Casey Anthony. Prosecutors say the neglect charge was centered around the theory that Caylee was alive. And based on the evidence, it`s now clear that the toddler is likely dead.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve lost my granddaughter, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we`re looking for her.

CINDY ANTHONY: I lost my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to -- what I assume, ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say they will continue to search for little Caylee, who has not been seen since mid-June, while Casey Anthony`s defense team has just added a Miami attorney with death penalty experience, hoping to keep the tot mom away from lethal injection.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee because we don`t know where Caylee is.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m going to stand alongside my daughter, no matter what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, a child neglect count has been dropped. Why?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the big reason was, first off, that charge was filed back in July when Casey as first arrested because they were operating -- the state`s attorney`s office -- operating under the premise that the child was alive and well someplace, even though that she had been missing 31 days.

Now, just a couple of weeks ago, if you recall, the grand jury here in Orange County handed up those seven indictments, one of them being first degree murder, which obviously trumps the child neglect charge. Now they`re operating under the premise that little Caylee is now dead, Nancy.

GRACE: Mark, when you read the child neglect indictment, does it lay out exactly what they -- what they charge? Did they charge, for instance, that she didn`t report the child missing or that she handed a child over to someone she was not familiar with? Did they lay out the facts of the neglect?

WILLIAMS: Well, if you take a look at Florida law under neglect, it`s -- you neglect a child when you don`t care for their physical wellbeing, you don`t treat them well, you maybe abuse them, things of that nature. And of course, she has told some tall tales about the -- Zenaida Gonzalez, leaving her with Zenaida Gonzalez, which -- nobody by that name exists, that she handed her off to. So in essence, she basically -- they considered her at the time abusing that child.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss, child advocate out of New York, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Pam Hayes out of New York. What about it, Sue Moss?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The concept was that for those 31 days, the fact that she did not call the police constituted neglect. Now the theory is that on day one, this child was killed. So the concept is, you can`t neglect a dead body.

GRACE: What about it, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. The language in the first...

GRACE: I think I`ve got Ray Giudice with me. Ray, are you there?

GIUDICE: I am. I`m here.

GRACE: OK. Ray, what do you make of this? What about the theory that child neglect is a lesser charge of murder?

GIUDICE: I don`t believe that. And the facts are that in the indictment for child neglect, the child is presumed alive and seriously injured. Sue is right. It contradicts the superseding indictment that speaks of death in the capital charge, capital murder charge, and in the aggravated manslaughter charge. That`s inconsistent, and the state does not want to give the defense an easy out that some crazy jury may come back and find while the child could still be alive, it`s a neglect case.

GRACE: Pam?

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. It seems pretty clear to me that they`re no longer pursuing the avenue of neglect. I think they`re just going to look at it as a straight murder case.

GRACE: OK. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County officials will not pursue child neglect charges against Casey Anthony because the mother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony is already charged with first degree murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The team searching for Caylee is ramping up efforts, meanwhile, to find her. The FBI and thousands of volunteers are expected to be out looking in areas of interest near Orlando International Airport. Now, Caylee Anthony reportedly disappeared back in June, but she was not reported missing until a month later. She was never found, and authorities believe that she is, in fact, dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is her life like behind bars? If you`re wondering, according to local affiliate WFTV, she spends about 20 hours a day alone in her cell at the Orange County jail. She hasn`t had a single visitor or made any phone calls, aside from her attorneys, and has no pictures on display in her cell, not even a single one of her daughter. It is allowed, though, to post them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Gwyn in Florida. Hi, Gwyn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, has anybody even thought about searching someplace other than Orlando? After all, she had an entire month to go someplace and dispose of that body.

GRACE: Yes, and isn`t it true -- to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG -- that she told various people that she had gone to Tampa, various places, looking for a job?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Yes, Nancy. She said that she traveled elsewhere, outside of Orlando. But investigators have been able to do some pretty good work with her cell phone, and they have been able to pin down the fact that she never left Orlando at any point in time. So she had to be in Orlando during that entire month.

GRACE: So what about it? To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping in the search for Caylee. What about the possibility that any remains of little Caylee is outside the Orlando area? I don`t see it.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: None. None. None whatsoever. She never left the Orlando area, like the young lady said. And I`ve got to tell you this. If you look at the ping maps that are right now in the possession of the FBI, the marshals and the sheriffs, and Rob Dick, you`ll see she never left the area. She`s never off that cell phone. Almost 800 phone calls between -- in that one period there that everybody`s looking at, and they all are in the Orlando area. Never left the area at all.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, I`m thinking about the big development today, that the state has actually dropped a charge, a major charge against tot mom Casey Anthony. You know, the old saying is, You can`t have your cake and eat it, too. It would have been great for the state if child neglect had been a lesser charge of murder. For instance, I charge you with murder...

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right.

GRACE: ... the jury can come back with a manslaughter charge. It`s a lesser included. But their theory that they were proving child neglect on was that she didn`t report her missing, that she fabricated lies about the child to the police. That is inconsistent with murder. So I don`t know if the state is really losing anything by dropping this charge.

BROOKS: No, I don`t think they`re losing anything at all, Nancy. Everything at the time it was perceived -- you know, even though it was all a lie, that`s all they had to go on at that particular time. And they were just -- they were going on the fact that she possibly, possibly could still be alive. So no, they`re not losing anything. And keep in mind, she still has the fraud charges, you know, that are pending against her, too. I don`t think they`re going to drop those.

GRACE: You know, another thing -- back to you, Mike Brooks. I`m going back to Padilla in a moment. Brooks, have you noticed that when criminals are on the run, they always stay pretty much in the same area? I mean, you stake out their mom or their girlfriend`s house, boom, there they are. I just don`t see Casey Anthony leaving the area. And if you notice - - take a look at the Scott Peterson case. That`s an easy case to use.

BROOKS: Oh, yes. Absolutely.

GRACE: People go where they are familiar. He was a fisherman, he dumped a body in San Francisco Bay. Very, very simple equation.

BROOKS: Right. He went from his house to the golf course to San Francisco Bay, and then he went down to Fresno, where he was having his affair.

GRACE: And this is the area that she`s familiar with.

BROOKS: Absolutely. She`s very familiar with it. And they don`t leave very -- don`t leave far from home. And also, escapees, what do they do? They usually run back to Mama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once a party girl, now Casey Anthony is a lonely girl behind bars. As mentioned, her family has not visited or called her since she went back in jail. She`s basically alone 20 hours a day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey`s allowed to hang pictures in her jail cell, but there`s not one single photo of Caylee on the walls in her cell. And also, new revelation, prosecutors are dropping the child neglect charges against her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Casey began to break down and cry. And she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO (ph), CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. She was having a nightmare or something.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: That`s when she opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother, and you know, maybe she`s right. Maybe I am. (INAUDIBLE) Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you in the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s alone about 20 hours a day in her cell. She eats alone there. Today, it was corn flakes for breakfast, turkey hot dogs and beans for lunch, Salisbury steak, gravy and potatoes for dinner. She does get dessert three times a day, if she wants. She can have photographs on her shelf in her cell, but we are told there are no photographs, not even of Caylee. No one in her family has asked to visit her over the last week. She`s made no phone calls. It`s no party here for Casey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. The big news today, the state has dropped one of its major charges against tot mom Casey Anthony, that charge of child neglect. I`ve got it right here in my hands, the indictment. And this indictment on child neglect,remember, came down before the evidence showed a dead body had been in her car. And it charges her with failing to care, supervise, maintain the health of the little girl. Now, clearly, they believe that this is not consistent with a murder one charge. This charge supposes that little Caylee is still alive.

Now, we`ve also learned today that the tot mom has a huge array of things she can order behind bars. In fact, her account has been doubled. And now she can order all types of things. She can order underwear. She can order shrimp. She can order Cajun chicken. She can order crabmeat. She can order mascara, eyeliner, mouthwash, cocoa butter lotion, hair, skin products, chili, sports bras, playing cards, tennis shoes.

What`s with that, Drew Petrimoulx?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, I mean, now she`s got finally money in her account. She got $50 from her dad and another $50 from one of her bondsmen, so she does have money in her account. And these are the three pages right here, as you can see, and these is just a bunch of items. She can get everything from mayonnaise to lipstick, underwear to makeup. So I mean, she can buy once a week pretty much a ton of things imaginable.

GRACE: What about it, Sue Moss?

MOSS: Yes, there`s no recession in that jail. That looks like a variety of things that she can get for pretty -- pretty fair prices, and with $100 in her account, boy, she can go to town.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB. I understand that while behind bars, no visitors whatsoever. She had been spending up to six hours a day at her attorney`s office. Now he visits for less than an hour. What was she doing hole up in his conference room for six hours a day?

WILLIAMS: Well, that`s something that Mr. Baez has to talk about, but of course, he won`t since it`s attorney-client privilege. But is she was spending six hours a day, almost 30 hours a week, if not more, in her attorney`s office in nearby Kissimmee. Now she`s down to an hour a day. Last night, for example, attorney Baez stopped by the jail shortly after 10:00 o`clock, signed in. An hour later -- 58 minutes later, as a matter of fact, man, he`s on the road back to Kissimmee, to the house, because he just wanted to talk to her.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. This is quite the facility that she is in. I understand they have television. She has free time, spends her whole day lounging, reading, eating and sleeping.

D`ONOFRIO: She does, Nancy. But I want to go back to her visitors. One of the visitors that she saw over the weekend is Lenamon, and Terry Lenamon is a very high-profile defense attorney in south Florida who`s very experienced with death penalty cases. He visited with her over the weekend, and he is going to be joining the defense team. He`s going to help out there because Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, isn`t qualified to defend her in a capital murder case. And since Terry Lenamon has this experience, he`s now joined the team.

GRACE: We also learned that Tim Miller of Texas Equusearch is headed back to the area to search for little Caylee`s remains. To Tim Miller. He`s joining us right now from Raleigh, North Carolina. Tim, what changed your decision? You packed up and left after no cooperation from the Anthony family. Why are you coming back, and not only that, bringing volunteers along with you?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, Nancy, you know what? We made a commitment to Caylee in the very beginning. So many members of the community joined in on that search and actually became members of that search. And we`re going to live up to that commitment to Caylee and now to that community. You know, this is not about the Anthony family. You know, all the other stuff, we don`t have anything to do with. Our main focus is on Caylee.

And you know what, Nancy? Everything is working out for the best in our search right now. The water`s going down. It`s cooler now, so the searchers can, you know search, longer and harder. The vegetation is starting to leave us.

And I anticipate several thousand searchers. Nobody has lost interest. I think the conditions are ripe for finding that little body. And that little body is out there, and Nancy, we`re going to continue that search. We could have jeopardized...

GRACE: Tim, where are you starting your search?

MILLER: Well, I`m actually getting into town on the 4th and...

GRACE: Where? Where?

MILLER: Well, in Orlando. But I`m spending time with John Allen (ph). With all of the calls that came in with positive sightings of a white car with a black bra on it, we`re going to go ahead and prioritize these sightings. And of course, we`re going to continue doing the three areas that we was really focused in, where the cell tower activity was. And this search is going to go on until we find Caylee.

GRACE: And back out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and now joining in the search for Caylee. We`ve now got up to three people stating that they observed mom Casey Anthony in this area, one of them -- well, actually, two of them, with a shovel and a bag. The driver and his passenger observed that. Is that where the searches will start?

PADILLA: The situation is such that I do not presume to in any way question what Tim is saying as far as where he is going to lead the search, and the search parties, too. He`s the one who`s going to decide...

GRACE: I take it that`s a yes?

PADILLA: Whatever Tim says, that`s what we`re going to do. I`m not going to get in his way, believe me. He`s the leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl living the "Sex and the City" lifestyle with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida. Accused of murdering her daughter, Caylee, to free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself not only childless but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then everybody else can see in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one has privacy in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today, the state drops a charge against mom Casey Anthony, the charge of child neglect. We learn how Casey Anthony is spending her time behind bars as the search gears up outside prison walls for her little girl.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Now that you are part of the team, do you plan to travel and look at the evidence, Koby (ph)? I mean, no move has been -- move has been made yet for them to look at the evidence.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, certainly I -- I`m guessing that I will have the opportunity to do that. But let me say this. The answer depends on defense strategy. They may decide to test certain things, they may decide to challenge the state`s evidence, on the other hand. So we have to see.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators today in Arkansas are looking for a motive in the brutal beating of a popular TV anchorwoman there. KATV`s Anne Pressly is in critical but stable condition after being beaten and stabbed at her home in Little Rock.

The police are trying to figure out if she was the random victim of a home invasion or targeted because of her job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were at dinner last night, and she was so happy. It`s just a great time in her life, with this movie she`s doing. The morning show now that she loves doing that and she`s so happy, and dinner last night was wonderful, and to think that she went home and this happened, it`s just tragic.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 26-year-old was found by her mother, unresponsive and bleeding from severe wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Little Rock police spokesperson, Sergeant Cassandra Davis, says Pressly`s mother called her around 4:30 for her morning wakeup call and couldn`t reach her, so she came over and found her lying in bed, bleeding.

Investigators say it doesn`t look like anyone forced their way inside Pressly`s home. Although they are purse is missing, they aren`t sure if this a random burglary or if the person targeted Pressly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: In the wee morning hours, this beautiful young anchor there in Little Rock, Arkansas apparently bludgeoned and stabbed in her own bed.

Tonight, she is clinging to life, as the investigation is in high gear.

Joining me right now, a reporter from -- KARN News Radio and former co-worker and friend of Anne Pressly, Dana Bradley is with us.

Welcome, Miss Bradley. What happened?

DANA BRADLEY, KARN NEWSRADIO, FORMER CO-WORKER OF ANNE PRESSLY: Well, Nancy, it all started off with the early morning routine. Ann`s mother routinely calls to wake her up in the morning and makes sure she gets up and get ready to report to work.

And her calls went unanswered Monday morning. And about 4:30 she got worried so went over to Anne`s house and entered the house and she noticed that -- she saw her daughter laying in bed, bleeding from severe wounds, unresponsive.

She called the 9-1-1. Police arrived to the scene and initial investigation stated that Anne was stabbed and suffering from severe blunt force trauma. Now after the investigation continued, they did notice no stabbing was involved. There was no knife or any -- sharp object used. It was just blunt force trauma and -- to her upper body and her head.

Anne is now in stable but critical condition. She is doing a lot better. And initial investigation states that Little Rock police found that there was no forced entry into the home. Her purse was missing, so they think that robbery could be the motive, but. I mean, everything is all under investigation right now and they`re just trying to put the pieces together.

GRACE: Do we know, Dana Bradley, what type of lock she had on her door? The fact that there was no forced entry, you know -- immediately visible doesn`t necessarily mean there was no forced entry.

BRADLEY: Well, that`s correct. I have not found out what type of lock she had on the door. That question actually was not asked by the Little Rock Police Department. But they did notice that she has two Cocker Spaniel dogs. And her dogs were out.

They usually stay in the house at night, but for some reason her neighbors returned the dogs and her dogs were not in the house, so -- and you know all of that is still under investigation and the Little Rock Police Department has not confirmed as far as what type of lock she had or how or when the dogs were released.

GRACE: But they say no forced entry.

BRADLEY: No. At first sight right now, they don`t see any forced entry into her home.

GRACE: What is her condition tonight?

BRADLEY: She is still -- she is upgrade from last night, she`s critical but is stable. She is improving.

GRACE: What were her injuries? What are they?

BRADLEY: Well, just blunt force trauma to the head and the upper body. And they don`t know -- there was an object used. Little Rock Police say there was an object used, they don`t know what the object is, they have not recovered the object yet, and this is the last time I spoke with Little Rock Police, this is what they were telling me.

So we don`t know. I mean we don`t know what the object was. And some of her injuries, she had to undergo surgery and brain surgery and a lot of different things like that. And you know, you just hear these initial reports, you talk to her family and her friends and you just hear -- you know hear about her condition, but everybody is just keeping her in their prayers and praying that she recovers wholeheartedly.

GRACE: Out to Gerard Matthews, the associate editor with the "Arkansas Times."

Welcome, Gerard. Gerard, what can you tell us about the neighborhood?

GERARD MATTHEWS, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, ARKANSAS TIMES, COVERING STORY: The neighborhood -- she lived in a neighborhood, it`s called the Heights in Little Rock. It`s very near the Little Rock Country Club, it`s a very nice neighborhood. There`s lots of nice houses. You know people walking their dogs up and down the street, you know, at all hours of the day.

You know, you asked about, you know, the no forced entry. I mean it`s possible -- although I would think it unlikely -- that she just didn`t lock her door.

GRACE: Would that -- is that true to form? Would she normally not lock her door?

MATTHEWS: Well, no, I`m not saying that she wouldn`t. I`m just saying it`s a really nice neighborhood, a lot of people here, just very trusting and open. And, you know, I mean, when you get an initial report that, you know, a young woman was -- her house was broken into and there was no forced entry, I mean, it just sort of raises questions.

Of course, that`s speculation but.

GRACE: Yes, no forced entry. That could mean anything. That could mean somebody got in through a window that wasn`t locked.

MATTHEWS: Right.

GRACE: And closed the window back.

MATTHEWS: Right.

GRACE: What was the weather the evening of the break in?

MATTHEWS: It was great weather. I mean I think it was a -- you know, very tempered outside, if I remember correctly.

GRACE: So there`d be no indication if a window had been entered.

Out to Mike Brooks, formerly fed with the FBI, what do you think?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, it doesn`t sound to me like a random act of violence. This sounds maybe -- possibly, again, this is all speculation, because we don`t know -- she may have known someone who came to the house and let them in.

And I find it interesting about -- the point about the dogs, the dogs were let out. Otherwise they would have been in the home at, you know, that early in the morning. You know, so there`s a lot of things you can look at, Nancy.

They say it`s a robbery right now, but we really don`t know the motive. If it was a robbery, I think there would probably be more missing than just the purse.

So are we looking at a possible stalking case, someone who had known her or someone who had wanted to know her, was it love-obsessed, some who she had rejected, an ex boyfriend? These are all things that law enforcement are looking at.

And also, were there any anonymous letters that ever came to KATV, or any anonymous letters that ever came to her house from strangers? You know, I -- back when I was in D.C., I actually arrested a stalker who was stalking a reporter at a local news station who is now a reporter for CNN, and this person kept showing up at the station, would stand outside with signs that said "marry me so-and-so," and then finally they showed up at her house and that`s when we went ahead and took some action.

And that`s when they wanted -- the station wanted us to take some action.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist -- we are taking your calls live, everybody -- we are talking about a gorgeous, young morning show TV anchor -- there she is -- Anne Pressly in Little Rock, Arkansas. Her mom wakes her up every morning to go to work, really early, around 4:30, a.m., couldn`t get her on the phone, went over and found her daughter bludgeoned nearly to death.

No forced entry obvious. Only her purse missing. The home apparently not ransacked, the TV, the computer, everything intact. Only thing missing was her purse.

Out to Dr. Patricia Saunders, the first thing that strikes me is the mode of the attack. When you have multiple hits, such as multiple stab wounds that shows a certain rage that screams to me, not random.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I couldn`t agree with you more, Nancy. There is too much passion in this for it to be a random home invasion and robbery.

Somebody had to repeatedly hit her and hit her hard enough to make her insensate. Either the person knew her, the person was on drugs or high, or it was a stalker turned to homicide because he couldn`t be with her.

GRACE: The weather that night, the low 50s and very calm, that means that if a window had been left raised and left open for any period of time, there would not have been any indication of that. We don`t know exactly how the intruder got in, but we do know that all was taken was a purse.

Back to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, if this were the work of a stalker, you know, very often stalkers start off by loving you. They want to marry you. They want to romance you. Then when you don`t respond or you respond negatively, all that love turns into rage.

SAUNDERS: That`s right, Nancy. Those kind of stalkers usually have a delusional system. These are people who may well be psychotic. And they`re unpredictable, and the rage can turn into homicide in far too many cases.

The non-psychotic stalker is more someone who that the victim knows, a spurned boyfriend, an ex, and there is nothing that we know about in this lady`s history.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Dana in Washington. Hi, Dana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I am a victim of an attack years ago, and it was due to an ex-boyfriend.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m just kind of wondering, have they checked with her ex-boyfriends, her past, someone that, obviously, she (INAUDIBLE)?

GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Gerard Matthews?

MATTHEWS: Well, you know, from what I know, she actually, you know -- is attractive, beautiful and talented. She was -- didn`t really date much. Dana might be able to speak to that more than I could. But, you know, she -- you know, from all accounts was just, you know, very reserved and very sweet girl. And I don`t know of any boyfriend. But.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly as a kind person, kind to everyone. But did she have an enemy who would leave her for dead in her own bed?

Police want to know whether she was randomly attacked or targeted because of her celebrity status. She also had a small part in a new Oliver Stone movie, it`s entitled "W."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Pressly`s mother called her around 4:30 for her morning wakeup call and couldn`t reach her, so she came over and found her lying in bed bleeding.

Investigators say it doesn`t look like anyone forced their way inside Pressly`s home. Although her purse is missing they aren`t sure if this is a random robbery, or if the person targeted Pressly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) so real. It`s hard to understand, because she is such a wonderful person that something like this could happen to somebody so great.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are talking with neighbors, friends and co- workers to see if there was a person who had an unusual interest in Miss Pressly, whether good or bad.

We do not have any suspects at this time. In talking with the neighbors, no one has been able to provide us information as to seeing or heard anything overnight.

Heard from the mother. Apparently there is a routine for the mother to notify Miss Pressly in the morning, routine wake-up call. When the mother was not able to reach Miss Pressly, she did drive to the residence. She went into the residence -- the rear of the residence, and then she did find her daughter inside.

Miss Pressly was beaten severely. She also does have some stab wounds and these injuries are life-threatening.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: A beautiful young TV morning news anchor has been brutally beaten in her own bed, lying there in her own home, discovered by her mother.

We are taking your calls live. Joining me right now, a special guest, Officer Michelle Hill. Michelle is the PIO, the public information officer, at the Little Rock Police Department.

Officer, thank you for being with us.

OFFICER MICHELLE HILL, PIO, LITTLE ROCK POLICE DEPT., ON THE CASE: Thanks, Nancy. You get me choked up when you air those little clips from our friends. First, I want to start off my thoughts and prayers go out to Anne and her family and the KATV family. This has really rocked our community here. She is a dear friend of ours.

GRACE: You know she`s apparently just as beautiful on the inside as she is on the outside. A lovely young lady.

Could you tell me if there are any suspects or motives at this time?

HILL: You know, at this time, the detectives have worked around the clock, you know, and they`re the best in the world in our eyes. And most of the information that they have, crime scene has gathered information, detectives are still interviewing people, and will continue to. We don`t have a whole lot to go on right now.

And that`s why we need your help.

GRACE: Very quickly, Officer, what do we know about the time line? I know she had dinner with a friend that evening?

HILL: All that still is -- it`s in the investigation case, I can`t really release any of that.

GRACE: OK. Let me then go quickly back to Dana Bradley with KARN.

HILL: Sure.

GRACE: I understand she had dinner with a friend and co-worker around 9:30 to 10:30. That was the last known contact with Pressly.

BRADLEY: Yes, Nancy. Sunday evening they had a surprise birthday party for a fellow co-worker at KATV, and a lot of people were at this party, the KATV president, general manager, Dale Nicholson was there, the reporters were there, reporter and friend of Anne, Mallory Harting, which is one of the young ladies you all spoke with, she was also there.

So they all saw her Sunday night there at that party.

GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientists, what tests need to be done inside the home, in crime scene?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, the first thing, Nancy, is that the crime scene unit needs to find point of entry and point of egress. They have to go in and look for trace evidence, they`ll dust for fingerprints, they`ll take an alternate light source, and run it around the room and see if there is any kind of evidence that could help with the case.

They`ll have to go through her computer records, her cell phone records, her mail. They will have to trace her steps for the last few days, find out who she spoke to, find out friends, people that know something about her. All of that is going to help the detectives solve the case.

GRACE: Kobe, you`re absolutely correct. We just showed you a list of items seized from the homes, including bloody sheets, cushions, bedding, also her computer for them to search her recent e-mails.

This is not the first time an anchor has been attacked. Of course, we all know about the 1995 attack on Jodi Huisentruit, Kathryn Dettman, Jennifer Servo, and here are the similarities. A morning anchorwoman abducted at her own home. Contents of the purse found near her car, here the purse is missing.

With Kathryn Dettman, also a reporter, that was in Waco, Texas, she had been stalked by a neighbor, and in that case, again, no sign of breaking and entering. She had actually left her door cracked for cats.

And, of course, Jennifer Servo, that was in Abilene Texas. She was bludgeoned in her own apartment, as well, no forced entry, no murder weapon ever found. So they`re extremely similar.

Let`s go out to the lawyers, to Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Pam Hayes. First let`s take calls, to Barbie in Florida. Hi, Barbie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was there any signs of sexual assault for, like, DNA evidence or anything?

GRACE: I do not believe there was an assault, a sexual assault, Gerard?

MATTHEWS: There were no signs that we know of right off the -- just - - as the investigation stands that there was any.

GRACE: OK.

MATTHEWS: . sign of rape or anything like that.

GRACE: Which suggests even more a targeted attack. If there`s no robbery, there is no rape, other than the -- pocket book, of course.

To Sonia in Florida, hi, Sonia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. My question is, is it possible that they took her purse and make it look like a robbery and maybe it was someone that she knew.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Pam Hayes -- Ray, we have seen this scenario on many occasions. What`s your take?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I do agree with Mike. I don`t think this is random. That violence, and Dr. Saunders talked about it, it`s so -- a thief would just take the purse, take the TV, flee, take her car or maybe take her with it.

But the violence in the home bespeaks of something more angry.

GRACE: Pam?

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I tend to agree. It`s just seemingly, you know, unmitigated violence just for a purse. There could have been a number of other things.

GRACE: I agree. Ridiculous.

HAYES: . that should have been missing if it was really a home invasion or, you know, just a robbery. And I just would be curious to match up that case in Texas to the Arkansas case to see what the real similarities are like, because it could be.

GRACE: Right.

HAYES: . some person who is doing it so you need to look at that ties.

GRACE: Excellent thought. To Susan Moss -- Susan, also she was still in bed, obviously, still asleep. They didn`t have to fight her to get her pocket book.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: There is a lot to be said that she was found in that bed. And what the evidence shows is that bloodied pillows, bloodied sheets, bloody bed. So she was not out, she was not standing up, she was not fighting.

This was targeted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love her. He just -- she`s just been raised right and trained right and just got good manners. Never saw her with a bad crowd. First-class girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s strong and she`ll be OK. And there`s so many people praying and that`s what the family is just asking for prayers right now. They need so much prayer.

And we believe she`ll pull through because she`s strong and she`s wonderful and she`s helped so many people and touched so many lives. She`ll continue to after she`s better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A beautiful young anchorwoman out of Arkansas found bludgeoned in her own home. So brutally attacked police initially thought she was stabbed.

Out to the lines, to Britney, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just curious if they checked in with any of her co-workers. Was she fighting with them? Were they angry with her for maybe a certain story that she did that they want?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Dana Bradley with KARN, what do you think?

BRADLEY: Well, Nancy, they did interview her friends and her co- workers and her family members as well. As far as right now, nobody says that they had any problem, that she had any problems with anybody.

GRACE: Right.

BRADLEY: Any ongoing problem.

GRACE: So they`ve all been cooperative.

Back to Mike Brooks, what scenarios or motives are investigators looking at right now?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, we know there`s -- we know that robbery`s the motive. And the other one that I`m thinking of, as I said earlier, is the stalking motive. I mean everything kind of leads to that right now.

But again, you start at the -- you start at the inner circle with her friends, family, relatives, work their way out.

GRACE: Robbery.

BROOKS: . cell phones.

GRACE: Robbery. You know.

BROOKS: Robbery.

GRACE: No, think about it. If this were a stalker he would take her pocketbook just to get stuff out of it, just to have her driver`s license or her lipstick.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

GRACE: Why didn`t he take her television, her VCR, her DVD player, her computer?

BROOKS: Or her jewelry, absolutely, her iPod, everything else. I totally agree with you, Nancy, and that`s why, you know, you start with the inner circle, as I said, work your way out. Telephones, cell phones, computers, all these kind of things can lead to a lot of evidence and hopefully find out who did this.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class John Bishop, 22, Gaylord, Michigan, killed Iraq. Awarded the Expert Infantry Badge and Army Good Conduct medal. Loved adventure, snowmobiling, skydiving, fishing.

Remembered as the glue that held everyone together. Leaves behind parents John and Gay, two brothers also serving in the military, two sisters, and new bride Diane.

John Bishop, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/21/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey`s On-Line Searches for Chloroform Recipes

Aired October 22, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Just released, police reveal the suspicious computer searches were actually for on-line recipes, recipes for chloroform at the time little Caylee goes missing. That`s right, tot mom Casey Anthony on line, looking up chloroform recipes. Home-made chloroform, can you imagine? Significant amounts of that powerful chemical solution discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.

And tonight, the stunning theory emerges that mom Casey actually drove 11 days with Caylee`s body in the trunk of her car, this as reports from inside the investigation reveal the crime scene believed to involve the pool, the pool in the Anthonys` back yard.

In the face of murder one charges, grandparents George and Cindy go on national television to announce Caylee is alive, the Anthonys yet to make one visit to the jailhouse or speak to her by phone since her arrest for Caylee`s murder, the Anthonys claiming leads still pouring in, even setting up their own private tip line.

And more money lands in mom Casey`s jail account, clearing the way for high-end snacks like crabmeat and shrimp cocktail, makeup, shoes, lingerie, hair and skin care products, all for her private jail cell. Tonight, as the search for Caylee intensifies, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was researching how to make chloroform on Casey Anthony`s home computer around the time Caylee went missing. Lab tests have shown high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car, and authorities believe evidence suggests that Caylee is likely dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why haven`t Casey Anthony`s own parents visited her in the slammer, especially if they think Casey had nothing to do with the daughter`s disappearance? This morning, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony -- they told the "Today" show it`s because Caylee is still alive.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have returns that indicate human decomposition was present and located in the defendant`s vehicle. We had higher hopes of finding her alive, and that hope has somewhat diminished.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

CINDY ANTHONY: Continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) not telling you where her daughter is?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Correct.

They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding a gorgeous young mom of two, vanishing after a suspicious fire at the family home, North Carolina, Kelly Morris (ph) last seen by her husband and children, her car abandoned just one mile away, purse, keys, cell phone inside the car. What happened to 28-year-old Kelly Morris?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. Morris`s house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson. They have named her husband, Scott Morris, a person of interest in her disappearance. Morris`s car and some personal belongings found a short distance away. Since then, hundreds have searched for Morris. Newly-released search warrants indicate investigators are now looking at Scott and Kelly Morris`s bank records. The warrants also show the couple had arguments where Scott punched holes in the walls and once threw a computer out the window.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure there`s people probably are afraid. You know, I -- for whatever reason -- I don`t know for what reason. Who they`re afraid or what they`re afraid of, we`re not sure of. But we want to get Kelly. We want to know where Kelly is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of missing 3- year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was on Casey Anthony`s home computer looking up recipes for the deadly chemical chloroform around the time Caylee went missing. Police have already said that evidence shows a high level of chloroform in the trunk of the tot mom`s vehicle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact is, not one family member has visited Casey in jail since her arrest on murder charges. Child neglect charges were dropped, so that means, obviously, they`re focusing in on the murder charge. But yet in the interview on the "Today" show, George and Cindy Anthony basically insist little Caylee`s still alive. They even blame the media and police for pushing some conspiracy against their daughter.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, you`re doing things to help us find your daughter, right? And I want you to tell me how lying to us is getting to that end. How is lying to us helping to find your daughter faster?

CASEY ANTHONY: It isn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then why would you do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: Saying I don`t know and telling you that I just dropped her off, and that was the last time that I`ve seen her -- even starting with that, everybody else is, like, Well, and what happened after that?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our ultimate goal is to find Caylee. We`re going to do everything we can. We`ve been doing everything we can to find Caylee. I need you on my side.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I want to be on your side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless whether she`s alive or passed away, we need to find Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, we all knew that there were searches for chloroform on tot mom Casey Anthony`s home computer, her laptop, to be specific. But recipes for chloroform? That`s the first I`m hearing of that.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. I guess we were under the impression she was looking to buy it, but what we found out was she was actually looking at how to make it. And we found more than a million Web sites on line to give you the instructions to make it. You can make it with household chemicals that you probably have in your house right now.

GRACE: To our producer, Natisha Lance. We had you look it up. How do you make chloroform? How difficult is it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s very easy, Nancy. You can use bleach or pool shock (ph) to make it, acetone, as well as lots of ice. And there`s another way you can make it, too, with alcohol or hypochloride.

GRACE: OK. Part of your answer cut out. Repeat. How do you make chloroform?

LANCE: There`s two different ways you can make it. One of them is with bleach or pool shock, acetone and ice.

GRACE: Wait, wa-wait. Bleach or what?

LANCE: Pool shock?

GRACE: OK. Go ahead.

LANCE: Acetone and ice. And the other way to make it is with alcohol and hypochloride.

GRACE: Now, how do you get all those ingredients? How difficult is it to get those ingredients?

LANCE: It`d be very easy to get those ingredients, Nancy. You could go to...

GRACE: OK, let`s go through them again. What are they?

LANCE: Bleach, which you could get...

GRACE: OK. Easy to do.

LANCE: ... from any convenience store. Very easy to do. Acetone, not the kind you use for nail polish remover, but just regular straight acetone.

GRACE: Where would you find that?

LANCE: You could find that at a local supply store, as well as a drug store.

GRACE: Go ahead.

LANCE: And then ice, which you can get from your refrigerator at home.

GRACE: But wait a minute. You named a lot of other ingredients to start with.

LANCE: Bleach or pool shock were the first time, and then acetone and then ice. That`s one method.

GRACE: That`s it?

LANCE: That`s it.

GRACE: That`s it?

LANCE: That`s it.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, Mike, when we first learned of these computer searches on tot mom`s laptop for chloroform, the defense bar did a somersault, claiming there would be a receipt -- there would be evidence of an on-line purchase of chloroform. Now all I have to do is trot down to the Duane Reed (ph) and I, too, can make chloroform?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Down to Duane Reed or to Wal-Mart, Nancy, to get that acetone. Absolutely. It`s not very hard to make at all. But one of the things -- it`s very, very -- you`ve got to be very, very careful because it can turn into some other -- other, as I call it ethyl-methyl bad stuff, you know, such as phosgene, if it`s allowed to sit in the sunlight for too long, if it`s not cool. I mean, it`s very unstable stuff, Nancy. It`s not something that you want to play with. And you know, but you can get all kinds of different strengths of it, depending on how you mix it.

GRACE: And let`s go to our psychotherapist, Dr. Stacy Kaiser joining us out of LA. Let`s just step back for a moment. Forget how easy we now know it is to make chloroform. What mom is on line getting a recipe for chloroform? I mean, I`ve looked up chicken pot pie and shepherd`s pie and Waldorf salad, but chloroform? Who`s on line looking at the recipe for chloroform? Help me, Doctor.

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I mean, this is a mother who was desperate, who was probably feeling helpless and hopeless, and was trying to figure out a way that she could do something to her daughter without being too hurtful and harmful and bloody.

GRACE: Now, OK, I`m not quite sure what you mean, how chloroform fits into your theory of not too hurtful. You`re talking about a 2-year-old little girl -- 2-year-old girl, chloroform, really shouldn`t be in the same sentence under any circumstances.

Speaking of what you just said, other and more unusual theories have emerged. What about it, Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO? The theories as to what may have happened to little Caylee are now being revealed.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, one of the theories was actually printed in "The Globe," and that states that on June 15, that Casey got in a fight with her parents. She left her house and wanted to go to Tony Lazzaro (ph), her boyfriend`s, house. He said that she could come, but not with Caylee. So the theory is that she placed Caylee in the trunk with a chloroform rag close to her, and basically, overnight that she succumbed and died from the chloroform, then actually drove around for about 11 days with the body in the trunk.

GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven!

PETRIMOULX: Yes, there`s another theory also from "The National Enquirer," and in that one, they theorize that Caylee drowned in a pool, and her decomposing body mixed with pool water basically in the trunk of the car, formed the chloroform that was eventually tested for.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. OK, I know, Koby (ph), that you`re already hired by the defense. You`re going to have a tough time convincing a jury that chloroform formed naturally in the back of the trunk, especially in those heavy, heavy, dense -- the density in which it was found.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, first of all, Nancy, in one of our prior interviews, I had mentioned that you can combine bleach and alcohol and inadvertently manufacture chloroform. What we really don`t know are the levels of chloroform. We are hearing trace amounts...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, right there! Right there! BS-o-meter is going off. How do you inadvertently mix bleach with acetone, Koby? Have you done that by accident?

KOBILINSKY: I said bleach and alcohol -- beer, wine, liquor.

GRACE: And how would you accidentally do that?

KOBILINSKY: Oh, very simple. You could have a spill...

GRACE: Really? Have you ever done it by accident?

KOBILINSKY: I don`t know. I hope -- I don`t think so. But it`s possible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focusing on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof...

CINDY ANTHONY: But are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee, Gary?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee, Cindy, because we don`t know where Caylee is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was an overpowering smell. I`ll admit that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It hits you like a wave. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First glance, you thought this may be the smell of a body or decomposition?

GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s a possibility, yes. I mean, it`s a possibility. I mean, maybe my daughter ran over something.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All we had to do is Google "How do you make chloroform," and we found more than a million Web sites with instructions. On the first one we found, page one had an explicit warning about chloroform`s dangers, calling the chemical extremely dangerous and unpredictable and warning never to allow children to come near chloroform. FBI lab tests show high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey`s car, where investigators say Caylee`s body had been. And there was a mysterious stain in the trunk, along with Caylee`s hairs and dirt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s just another piece of circumstantial evidence that`s going to form the chain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Stunning theories emerge as to what little Caylee went through just before her death, a death that is now part of a multi-count indictment handed down by a Florida grand jury. Now we learn that those on-line searches regarding chloroform were actually how-to searches, recipes for the sometimes deadly sedative.

We`re taking your calls live. First let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, John Burris. Susan Moss, how do you explain to a jury that while your client can`t get off her duff and go get a job, you know, go flip burgers at McDonald`s, just do something instead of sucking Mommy and Daddy dry, she`s got time to look up a recipe for chloroform?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I have no idea. She was searching for chloroform. What, was she remaking a Hitchcock film? There is no reasonable theory why she was searching how to make chloroform and then chloroform ends up in her trunk, along with the smell and decomposition of a dead body.

GRACE: Renee, how do you explain the search for this recipe? You want to pin it on Grandmommy and Granddaddy?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, first you`re going to have to show that she was searching for the chloroform, not somebody else.

GRACE: Well, that`s what I just said, Renee. I said there`s only three people to blame it on, the grandparents or Casey Anthony.

ROCKWELL: You can`t -- you can`t prove that nobody else got on that computer, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. So your theory is the "SOD" -- some other dude -- did it. OK, I guess somebody snuck into the house and got on her laptop. Good try. Burris, come on, please throw us a bone.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m not going to deny that she may have done it. I don`t think that`s the way the case is going to turn. The question that I would see if I`m the defense lawyer, if that`s there, I think the theory is that she wasn`t trying to kill the kid. She wasn`t trying to kill him (SIC), so then the issue is, what kind of homicide is this, once you get down to it? And in my...

GRACE: So if she wasn`t trying to kill the kid, what was she doing?

BURRIS: Well, maybe she was just trying to keep the kid sedated while she was going to have fun that particular night.

GRACE: Wouldn`t that be a felony murder?

(CROSSTALK)

BURRIS: ... felony murder or not. I think it might be an involuntary manslaughter.

GRACE: Oh, hold on! Whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa! Wait! Wait!

BURRIS: And let me finish. Involuntary manslaughter. And based upon the fact that she did all the cover-up, that might escalate it up further. But in terms of looking at her intent at the time this homicide took place, I don`t think this is a first degree murder, even if she was looking for chloroform or not.

GRACE: Well, let me take Mr. John Burris, who is a veteran trial lawyer in the San Francisco area, to school.

BURRIS: Oh, I`ve been to school.

GRACE: Felony murder -- refresher course.

BURRIS: Well, you know...

GRACE: Felony -- uh! Uh! Uh! Felony murder is when you commit a felony. It could be rape. It could be aggravated assault. It could be a robbery. And during the commission of that felony, intentional or not, a death occurs. If she assaulted this child with chloroform and the child died, intentionally or not, that is felony murder. Agree or disagree, Mr. Burris?

BURRIS: I disagree with that. I do think that you have issues here, but it might be more of a negligence activity here than that.

GRACE: Negligence?

BURRIS: I don`t think there`s an intent to kill this kid. And I don`t think...

GRACE: She negligently...

BURRIS: ... there is intent to commit a fraud or not.

GRACE: ... looked up the recipe...

BURRIS: I think you have negligent conduct...

GRACE: ... for chloroform.

BURRIS: ... on her part. And then you go from there. I mean, if you say it`s not malice aforethought, or your theory is felony murder, that`s it. I`m not so sure that it`s necessarily felony murder. I think you`ve got more of an involuntary, maybe a second degree, if you say it was reckless disregard for human life. I`m just trying to figure out -- I`m the defense lawyer. I`m trying to figure out how I`m going to work this thing.

GRACE: OK. You know, I`m going to take you at your word. I understand. You`re just looking for an answer for Casey Anthony. I get it.

BURRIS: Absolutely.

GRACE: I get it. Let`s go out to Tim Miller and Leonard Padilla. As you all know, Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch, not only has had huge success in finding not only those people that have passed away, but living -- living people who have gone missing. Also Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter, who is now joining in the search for little Caylee. Both gentlemen with us tonight.

Tim Miller, are you ready to tell me straightforwardly where you intend to start your search?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Yes. We`re -- conditions are right for the search now. The water`s down. It`s cooler outside.

GRACE: Where? Where? Where?

MILLER: The area that we could not finish up before, where the cell tower activity was.

GRACE: Ah, yes. Out near the airport. Everyone, you`re seeing just a few of the many, many people that Tim Miller`s group, Texas Equusearch -- all volunteers, I might add -- have recovered.

To Leonard Padilla, what about it? What makes you so interested in that particular area?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, on the -- on the 27th, I believe -- and I`m pretty sure that Rob`s correct -- she walked down from her boyfriend`s house, got in the car, drove to her mom`s, made a phone call to J.C. Penny, and then she spent 18 to 20 minutes in the cell tower area that Tim`s talking about. So if that`s where he leads us, that`s where we`re going to search. And we`ve got a lot of people out of the bail bond industry that have responded very positively to the search.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Tell everybody to keep looking for her. She`s alive, and we need everybody calling in those tips.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have hope right now?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Just as much as I did last week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s still a chance that she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody give Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, and until all of the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is and satisfy in my mind that she`s not out there, I am not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just a few hours ago, the Anthony family, grandparents Cindy and George, appeared on NBC`s "Today" show, insisting that little Caylee is alive. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I just think it`s another one of their tactics to just delay the disclosure. You know, we had a motion a couple weeks ago to allow us to look at the evidence, and I think it`s just another tactic to slow us down looking at that evidence.

Every bit of evidence could be, you know, brought in a court of law, and also could have some expert witnesses disprove it. So you know, we`ll go to trial, if we have to do that. But I believe we`re going to find Caylee before that.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I describe my daughter -- I can describe her in a lot of different ways, and the best way is to say she`s a great mom. She`s been a great daughter. She always will be a great daughter and a great mom. I mean, I`m not going to give up on my daughter for any reason.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have never in a quiet moment, the two of you, sat there and go, Is it possible, just possible, that we are in denial here?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely not.

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely not.

GEORGE ANTHONY: We`re not going to give up to this find this little girl. We`re never going to give up. My granddaughter`s alive. I have every belief and feeling inside. With all the tips we`re still getting -- we even got some tips, you know, just prior to coming up here. I mean, there`s just too many things that up that our granddaughter`s still out there, and we`re going to find her, no matter what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show, insisting Caylee is alive.

To Dr. Stacy Kaiser in LA. They really believe that. They really believe it, don`t they.

KAISER: I mean, I think they do. But then again, you know, once you give up hope, what do you really have left?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: There was an overpowering smell on the deck.

C. ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that had been returned to us regarding the vehicle. Preliminary information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.

C. ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

G. ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

C. ANTHONY: Air samples don`t mean anything. If we continue to, you know, look at evidence that hasn`t been verified, you guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin because eventually something is going to happen to her if we don`t find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the car that are similar to the length and kind of Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car, and she is dead, certainly is information we take very seriously.

G. ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my grand daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Eyewitness News" legal analyst, Bill Schaeffer, says it`s significant, because if Casey made the chloroform as opposed to buying it, she could have been trying to cover her tracks. Buying it would have generated some sort of record.

BILL SCHAEFFER, EYEWITNESS NEWS LEGAL ANALYST: This way, certainly, she can argue, all right, I was interested in learning to make chloroform but I never did, or that`s why you smelled chloroform in the trunk area, because I was experimenting in making it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Record or not, the jury would be faced with a compromising question for Casey.

SCHAEFFER: Why would you need to make chloroform and for what purpose?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, on the "Today" show, just this morning, insisting that little Caylee is alive, and also refuting much of what the media has said.

They insisted that photos of Casey Anthony partying up and down a stripper pole, claimed that they were before little Caylee went missing.

But the photos that have been shown over and over were actually taken on June the 20th. Police believe little Caylee is missing the day after Father`s Day that would have been around the 15th or the 16th.

The other photos that have been shown throughout the media are also after little Caylee went missing. Many of them are.

Speaking of the "Today" show, take a listen to what George and Cindy Anthony had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: You`re kind of prisoners in your own home. Those people, they are very misguided, and it`s very unfortunate that, you know, if they have that energy and they want to, you know -- if they truly believe that Caylee is deceased, then they should put the energy into someone like -- helping similar what Texas Equusearch and actually looking for, you know, on the ground for her.

I point blank asked the sheriff`s department even weeks ago, you know, is it 100 percent? And they said no, there`s no evidence it`s 100 percent. So, I mean, I don`t know any child that doesn`t deserve a chance to be looked for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, that was George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show this morning.

Mike, have you ever had to tell a victim`s family your little girl is dead? Have you ever had to do that? Is it better to tell a lie that brings a smile?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: No. No.

GRACE: Or the truth that brings the tear? Would it be so wrong for police to say to them, you know what? Yes, the cadaver dogs hit on the car, yes, we found evidence of decomposition, but we haven`t found a body, so, you know what, maybe she is still alive.

Is it possible they told them that?

BROOKS: I seriously doubt it, Nancy. With the amount of that evidence they have -- the decomposing body, of the hair, of the chloroform and everything else, and now the indictment of Casey Anthony -- there is no way that they`re going to say, oh, we`re holding out hope.

You know, they said early on, they said early on, yes, possibly. But you know, I don`t mean to be flipping, Nancy, but, you know, I held out a little bit of hope for George. You know, but Cindy all along, as I said, about, you know, drinking the Casey Kool-Aid, it sounds like both of them have taken a big gulp of it, Nancy, which is.

GRACE: I don`t know. You know what, Mike.

BROOKS: You know and I know they`re parents.

GRACE: After I had the twins, it would be very difficult for me not to believe something that they would tell me. You know, I would want to believe.

BROOKS: Sure.

GRACE: I would move heaven and earth to make what they said be the truth in my own mind. I understand where the Anthonys are coming from.

BROOKS: Sure.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, Patricia in Florida. Hi, Patricia.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hi, Nancy, first of all, I wish every child had an advocate like you and (INAUDIBLE) in their corner.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you so much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just curious, they are so adamant thinking that this child -- you know, alive, they had the high hope, but low probability. Should -- is there a possibility that they have evidence that they`re withholding, and if that could be proven that they do, could they be prosecuted?

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, many people have suggested that George and Anthony -- George and Cindy Anthony should also be charged. I disagree.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: I think what might be going on here is that it`s possible that they are telling investigators one thing on an official level, and saying something else on a public level. And I think that`s difficult for people to navigate. I don`t know that anyone thinks it was anything illegal.

GRACE: What about it, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: They`re confused in their own minds as to what they want to believe. Just a week ago, I got a document that says that they just -- Cindy formed a new nonprofit organization to accept funds for the search.

And while we were back there one night, George was telling his friend, the -- that was a cop also up in Warren, Ohio, that he was tired of living the lie. He couldn`t take it anymore. And that was just back in the latter part of August.

So they know the child is dead. They`re just trying to make the best of it and cope with it. And here`s a way to possibly pick up some defense money for their daughter by forming a -- a nonprofit, and taking in funds, because some of the other organizations have been found to be taking funds and misusing them.

And now they`re faced with -- the reality that their daughter has been charged with murder, and what are we going to do? Well, the next best thing is to keep her -- keep hope alive, have people send money in, and the only thing that`s doing is taking it away from Tim Miller, and -- and the real search.

GRACE: You know what, I do not believe -- I do not believe that George and Cindy Anthony would take hard-working people`s money under the guise of searching for Caylee and then just pump it into Casey Anthony`s defense fund.

I just don`t believe that. I believe them. They really have chosen to believe this little girl is alive. Hey, they are not responsible for this child`s disappearance and death, according to police. So they are not being prosecuted.

To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, why have they not visited tot mom Casey Anthony since the murder charges came down?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I mean, the reason what I would think is because everything that they say to her, whether it be video conference or over the phone, ends up being public.

And then, you know, on this show and throughout the country, dissect every little thing they say, and, you know, a lot of things that have come out through those conversations have painted Casey in a bad light.

So you have to think that maybe the lawyer instructed Casey and the parents.

GRACE: Right.

PETRIMOULX: . to just stop making those calls.

GRACE: Well, this is what they had to say just a few hours ago on that topic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Casey has asked the focus to be on her daughter, Caylee, and not to be on us going to -- it`s a media frenzy every time we go to the jail, every time, you know -- you know, there is an interview or whatever.

The focus is in the wrong direction. She wants us to focus on her daughter. She desperately wants us to find Caylee. I mean, she`s a grieving mom. And who`s to say, you know, how you react when someone takes someone that you love?

I mean, we`ve been criticized how we`ve acted. There is no handbook on how to act in a circumstance like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Cindy Anthony on the NBC "Today" show, speaking out about why they have not visited behind bars.

To Shawna in Wisconsin. Hi, Shawna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Great to talk to you.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for all you do. My mom and I watch you every night.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this: why all of the search teams waiting until the 8th of November to restart the.

GRACE: Good question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . restart the search, instead of doing it now?

GRACE: What about it, Tim Miller? Why wait until November 8th?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, SEARCHING FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Well, November 8th is the weekend that we can get everybody together. We`re going to have several thousand people. And, again, the water was high before -- you know, November is turning into fall, vegetation is going to start dying off.

Our resources are going to be far more valuable than they have been. And we know that if Caylee is out there and not alive, she is not going to be anymore dead then than she is now and the chance of finding her would be better.

GRACE: OK. So basically, you are amassing people from all around the country to come search on the 8th.

To Sherry in Mississippi, hi, Sherry. Hi, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, could Caylee have been chloroformed and then drowned, and has the hair sample has been checked -- has the hair sample been checked for chlorine?

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, can hair samples be checked for chlorine?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Absolutely, they can. And you know, these theories about drowning -- this comes from the "Globe," not a very definitive place to study this.

GRACE: Well, and also the fact that cadaver dogs were hitting in the backyard of the Anthony home where there is an above-ground pool. Remember that?

KOBILINSKY: I do. But we really aren`t convinced that decomposition is human origin.

GRACE: Oh, so you don`t trust the dog. You think the dog is in on the conspiracy.

KOBILINSKY: Quite possibly. Dog might have found a friend, some kind of scent that turned it on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Eyewitness News" legal analyst Bill Schaeffer says it`s significant, because if Casey made the chloroform, as opposed to buying it, she could have been trying to cover her tracks. Buying it would have generated some sort of record.

SCHAEFFER: This way, certainly, she can argue, all right, I -- I was interested in learning to make chloroform. But I never did. Or that`s why you smelled chloroform in the trunk area, because I was experimenting by -- in making it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Record or not, the jury would be faced with a compromising question for Casey.

SCHAEFFER: Why would you need to make chloroform and for what purpose?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Mom Casey Anthony behind bars tonight. You`re seeing photos that we have confirmed were taken after little Caylee goes missing. That is at Fusion bar, contrary to what Cindy Anthony had to say today on the "Today" show.

I want unleash the lawyers again. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, John Burress.

Have you seen this list from the commissary? High-end items she can choose from, like shrimp cocktail, fresh-catch tuna, chipper snacks, fish steaks? Lingerie? Nacho cheese dip, chocolates, cookies, hot cocoa -- this is like she`s staying at the Hilton, Renee.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, yes, well, the Hilton. Doesn`t sound like (INAUDIBLE) County Jail, Nancy. But after all, what is more interesting is the fact that people are putting money into her commissary account.

GRACE: OK. You want to shift gears, that`s fine.

John Burress, do your client set -- or in the pokey usually get to order, nacho, tortilla chips or chicken?

JOHN BURRESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have never heard of anything like this so.

GRACE: Well, I haven`t either. What about is, Sue Moss?

BURRESS: . maybe it`s the last supper or something. But not this way. This is quite surprising.

GRACE: Friendship cards? She can get a friendship card?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She -- she can.

GRACE: Anniversary cards? Makeup, skin care products? Ultimate styling gel? Oil, moisturizer, makeup, lingerie, bras? What is this all about?

MOSS: She can buy bras and underwear, at least she`ll be ready for the next hot body contest.

GRACE: You know, I don`t really care that she can order all of this, fine, get after it, I would be mad if you didn`t. But what`s concerning me is, for all we know, her child`s remains, Sue Moss, are out in a swampy area.

And she is basically eating, sleeping, reading, watching a little TV and doing nothing to help cops find little Caylee.

MOSS: That`s absolutely correct. And the evidence is mounting. There is even a new witness who has saw (sic) her. And if this new witness saw her with a shovel, this defense team is in real trouble.

GRACE: To Dawn in Michigan. Hi, Dawn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know why they`re not showing all the evidence if they`re claiming she is dead.

GRACE: What evidence are you referring to?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The evidence that they have said they found that she -- the -- that they -- they have been showing off and on on the news and stuff. They said that they found evidence, and I`m just wondering why they`re not showing all of the evidence to prove it.

GRACE: To suggest that -- evidence to suggest that little Caylee is dead?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: OK. I think the evidence is this, that we know of so far, two cadaver dogs hit on the trunk of mom Casey`s car. Evidence of human decomposition was found by Oak Ridge Laboratories body farm in that car.

The hair of a deceased person that is either an Anthony family member, and they`re deceased, we know it`s not Cindy, George, Lee, or Casey. That only leaves little Caylee.

I think that is the evidence suggesting that she is dead. Plus the fact that she has been missing for such a long time. And, of course, Dawn in Michigan, the police don`t have to reveal to me or you what their evidence is until they go to trial.

Let`s switch gears. I want to help find Kelly Morris. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search continues on for missing Grandville mother Kelly Currin Morris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family needs closure. Everybody needs a little closure on this.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators say an arsonist set her home on fire the same day she disappeared. Her husband, Scott Williams Morris, is a person of interest. Search warrants reveal investigators are looking at bank records, saying in cases of homicide or arson, there is often a financial motive.

Sources tell "Eyewitness News," Kelly and her husband were in dispute over money. Currin spoke to Morris by phone shortly after Kelly disappeared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t see -- if he any particular place we thought we need to be looking and he said he didn`t.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Out to Gurnal Scott joining us from Raleigh, North Carolina with WPTF.

Gurnal, very unusual circumstances that arson is involved.

GURNAL SCOTT, ANCHOR/REPORTER, WPTF RADIO, COVERING STORY: Yes. Arson is involved with the home of -- the home was found burned after Kelly Morris was discovered missing, and she is still missing a month and a half after that fire occurred.

And they`ve got professional search teams out of Texas coming in to -- to look and canvass the area around Grandville County and town of Stem where the home was, and see if they can find any sign of her as to where she went and what happened to her.

GRACE: We`re showing you a map right now. There is Gurnal Scott speaking with us from WPTF.

Right now, joining us, Kelly`s father, Pat Currin.

Sir, thank you for being with us. When was the last time you saw your daughter?

PAT CURRIN, KELLY MORRIS` FATHER: My wife was at the house on the 3rd about 8:00 that night.

GRACE: And was she in good spirits?

CURRIN: Best I know, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And, sir, she has two young children, correct?

CURRIN: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Have you ever known her to leave them?

CURRIN: No, ma`am.

GRACE: I mean it kills me when I have to leaf the twins just to come to work. What do you want searchers to do? Do you believe that she`s still alive?

CURRIN: We`re hoping for the very best.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

CURRIN: And we are preparing for the worst, obviously, you know, it`s been such a long time. It will be seven weeks tomorrow. So we are hoping for the best, but we obviously are preparing for the worst at this time.

GRACE: Is there a reward being offered by the family? How much?

CURRIN: We have offered $30,000 and the governor of North Carolina has offered $5,000 and CrimeStoppers has offered $5,000.

GRACE: That is a substantial amount of reward.

Everyone, the tip line is 919-963-3213. With us tonight, Kelly Morris`s father.

Look at this young beauty, missing for weeks now. Please help us find Kelly.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sheriff`s office remains tight lipped about much of the investigation. The fire at the house has been ruled an arson, investigators are calling Kelly`s husband Scott Morris a person of interest but won`t release any further details.

Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight back out to Pat Currin, this is Kelly Morris`s father joining us tonight.

Mr. Currin, again, thank you for being with us, I know this is a trying time for you and your wife and your entire family. What were the circumstances of her disappearance?

CURRIN: We -- my wife had gone to -- one of the children had stuck something in their foot and they had gone to their house on the 3rd and my daughter is working a part-time job and had started a new job about 10 days prior to that.

And she had gone -- she works for a group of older people, a place for the older people to live and she was over there helping out with them, collecting money for them, whatever that was for.

But anyway, so she came in while my wife was there and as far as we know everything was OK and obviously none of our family has talked to her since.

GRACE: What are the ages of her children?

CURRIN: 5 and 8.

GRACE: And where they tonight?

CURRIN: The 8-year-old child is with her daddy, which was from a previous.

GRACE: Right.

CURRIN: And the 5-year-old is with Scott.

GRACE: Mr. Currin, thank you for being with us.

Everyone, we`ll be back on the story tomorrow night. Leaving behind two little children, where is Kelly? ` I want to stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Shaun Whitehead, 24, Commerce, Georgia, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Dedicated to country and his fellow soldiers, dreamed of a military career.

Loved time with family, playing with his children. Leaves behind grieving mom Rebecca, widow Brenda, son Gabriel, daughter, Jana.

Shaun Whitehead. American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/22/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Defense Seeks to Bar Evidence

Aired October 23, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. The investigation reveals mom Casey ignores deadly chloroform warnings, warnings that were right in front of her eyes, before allegedly cooking up the highly toxic chemical solution. As the state`s theories on little Caylee`s death emerge, the defense strategy is revealed, as well, the tot mom`s defense now seeking to have all evidence connected to mom Casey`s car, including DNA from hair plus evidence of human decomposition, thrown out of court. The defense begins questioning state`s witnesses, all focusing on the car, as critical FBI lab results to be delivered tomorrow morning, including that chloroform discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.

Police reveal suspicious computer searches on mom Casey`s computer were actually do-it-yourself chloroform recipes. That`s right, the tot mom, Casey, reads up on how to cook up chloroform all at the time little Caylee goes missing, this as grandparents George and Cindy insist when mom Casey was caught on camera partying, it was before Caylee vanished. But the actual photographer confirms mom Casey out celebrating even at a "hot body" contest after Caylee`s gone.

Nearly 1,000 tips pour in. The Anthonys` private investigator is zeroing in on what they say are two new leads, one outside the state of Florida. And still not a single visit to the jailhouse by grandparents George and Cindy, this as complete strangers who say they feel sorry for the tot mom put money in her jail account. But tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony killed with chloroform? Well, according to affiliate WFTV, investigators say someone was researching how to make the potent chemical on her mother`s computer around the same time the little girl vanished. Investigators found high levels of chloroform and evidence of a decomposing body in the trunk of her mother`s car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The forensic evidence in Casey Anthony`s car trunk, Caylee`s hairs, which investigators say came from her dead body, and air tests showing signs of human decomposition is the strongest evidence so far. And the specifics will go public very soon. It appears the defense team plans to attack that evidence, possibly trying to show that it could have been compromised at some time between when it was parked at the Amscot and when it was parked here at the sheriff`s evidence garage. Cindy Anthony has even suggested that someone planted someone`s body in the trunk while it was here at Johnson`s (ph) Wrecker Service in east Orlando.

CINDY ANTHONY: I smelled rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding a gorgeous young mom of two, vanishing after a suspicious fire at the family home, North Carolina, Kelly Morris last seen by her husband and children, her car abandoned just one mile away, purse, keys, cell phone inside the car. What happened to 28-year-old Kelly Morris?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search continues on for missing Granholm (ph) mother Kelly Currin (ph) Morris. Pat Currin has commanded volunteers, canvassed miles of farmland, even in the air to find his missing daughter, Kelly Currin Morris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We surely would have thought we`d have found something by now, but we just haven`t. And the leads seem to be getting less and less.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So Currin is offering a substantial reward after rumors that his body daughter`s body was discovered but the information was being withheld because there was no money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re hoping $30,000 will make somebody come forward. It`s like I said, it could be anonymous, I can be through a third person.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Currin is looking for any new leads. So far, there have been a few since his daughter went missing the same day investigators say an arsonist set her home on fire. Her husband, William Scott Morris, is a person of interest. Search warrants reveal investigators are looking at bank records, saying in cases of homicide or arson, there is often a financial motive. Sources tell Eyewitness News Kelly and her husband were in dispute over money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family fears the worst. Currin says Morris loved her two daughters more than anything and there`s no way she would leave her family and not say good-bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that Casey Anthony`s defense team may be trying to get evidence found in the tot mom`s car thrown out. The station reports that the defense will claim that the evidence could have been compromised between the time it was abandoned and when it was brought to the Orange County sheriff`s office.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: I sat down with her, and when I referenced the car smell, she said, Well, it actually started around Mom`s birthday when -- which is, again, June 5. She said it started around that time when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I got a call to come pick her up. She said that she ran out of gas at that corner and that somebody helped her push her car into the Amscot.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Someone else could have been driving my daughter`s car when it was towed from this one location on the 30th.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, the state attorney`s office announced that they will be releasing FBI lab documents at any moment. At least 30 pages are expected to be released.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, joining us tonight. Kathi Belich, it`s my understanding that when you look up these do-it- yourself chloroform recipes, they all have huge warnings across the top claiming, Do not expose this to children.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They have warnings about exposing it to children. They have warnings about how dangerous and unpredictable it is, that you should be careful in handling it, it shouldn`t be inhaled. There are warnings all over the place about that.

GRACE: We are showing you some on-line warnings. If anyone looks it up -- and we know now that on the tot mom`s computer, there were various searches for how to do-it-yourself recipes on chloroform, all of these warnings, skull and bones, warning people away from the use and the creation of chloroform.

I want to go to Dr. Tristan Lambert, professor of chemistry at Columbia University. Dr. Lambert, thank you for being with us. I know you need acetone. I know you need bleach. Both simple to get. But how do you go about creating chloroform?

TRISTAN LAMBERT, PH.D., PROFESSOR OF CHEMISTRY, COLUMBIA UNIV.: Well, Nancy, it`s actually quite simple. Just as the recipes on the Internet say, it`s literally as simple as pouring one liquid into another. So what you would do is get your bleach, cool it down with some ice, and then just pour the acetone. Or it could be a number of compounds, isopropyl alcohol, which is rubbing alcohol, or ethanol. You pour that into the solution of bleach very slowly, and that creates the chloroform.

GRACE: That`s all you need to do? Why do you have to put it on ice?

LAMBERT: The ice is there to actually cool down the mixture. So when you actually generate the chloroform, that chemical reaction is what`s called exothermic, so it generates quite a good deal of heat, and that heat can get out of hand. If you didn`t cool the mixture, it would actually begin to boil, and that`s going to be bad for a number of reasons, one of which is it`s going to cause the chloroform to boil, and then you`re going to inhale that. It`s actually -- it would be quite dangerous to not cool it down.

GRACE: And so acetone is actually quite common. It`s very simply used as a drying thinner, correct?

LAMBERT: Among other things. It`s also used to clean metal parts and things of that sort. But yes, it`s very common.

GRACE: So that`s very, very common. Acetone, bleach and what else would I need to create chloroform?

LAMBERT: Just a way to cool the mixture.

GRACE: And you can do that over ice?

LAMBERT: You can do it over ice. Yes. Sure.

GRACE: So the acetone that we bought was 3 bucks. The Chlorox was 2 bucks. That`s a pretty cheap mixture for such a deadly solution. Is it correct, Dr. Lambert, that back in the `70s, chloroform was taken off the market for consumer use?

LAMBERT: Well, I don`t know of those details, but I do know that it`s no longer used for any type of medicinal purpose. It used to be used as an anesthetic back in the 19th century, but it`s, in fact, very dangerous. It`s also carcinogenic. So it`s not used for any human purpose anymore.

GRACE: Dr. Lambert, is there any innocent reason that someone would be cooking up chloroform in their home?

LAMBERT: To my knowledge, there`s very few. Chloroform can be used to sort of weld certain plastic parts together. And as far as I know, there`s not many more uses. It would be a very rare thing for a layperson to actually need chloroform.

GRACE: And one last question for right now. Dr. Tristan Lambert joining us from Columbia University. How does chloroform work as a, quote, "knockout agent"?

LAMBERT: Well, not speaking as a medical doctor, essentially, what happens is you inhale the chloroform, and it acts as a central nervous system depressant. And you know, so with small amounts of chloroform inhaled, what`s going to happen is you`re going to begin to feel dizzy, maybe fatigued, headache. If you inhale more, it`s actually going to cause you to pass out. And that`s why it was used as an anesthetic back in the 19th century. But unfortunately, there`s a very thin window between you passing out, and in fact, you dying, which is most likely due to heart failure.

GRACE: Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx, joining us from WDBO. The investigation is revealing that the tot mom went to various chloroform Web sites on how to cook it up yourself, allegedly. All of these Web sites -- most of them, anyway -- have dire warnings that she would have had to have ignored if she cooked it up. To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What is the theory, that she used chloroform to knock out little Caylee and actually put her in the car trunk while she partied?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, well, the theory was that she got in a fight with her mom on June 15, that is, and she called Tony Lazzaro, her boyfriend, and she was wanting to go over there. He said, You can come over, but only if you don`t bring little Caylee. And the theory is that she basically placed Caylee in a trunk with a rag of chloroform and she basically succumbed and died overnight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor. I smelled rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony (INAUDIBLE) looked up chloroform on the Web around the time of Caylee`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) moms will put a kid to sleep by covering over the nose and mouth or something and cause it to lose consciousness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bond (ph) says the practice is more common among young moms who don`t want to be bothered by a crying baby. Bond says it`s a dangerous practice because you don`t know how much the child is inhaling. It can shut down the respiratory system, the brain, and then the heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We now learn that the tot mom, of course, had apparently gone on line, looking up how to make your own chloroform at home. Now we know those Web sites that were visited have dire warnings that were right in front of her eyes to keep chloroform away from children, this as the Anthonys claim photos that have been released of the tot mom partying and dancing, even on a stripper pole, were before little Caylee went missing. The photographer now confirms, No, these were after the little girl vanished. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not going to give up on my daughter for any reason, even though some stuff may have came out showing her maybe in -- out having a good time with friends...

CINDY ANTHONY: Those pictures were prior to...

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) between the age of 18 and 21. I mean, this happened way before all these things.

CINDY ANTHONY: Most of the pictures...

GEORGE ANTHONY: This is very disturbing to us.

CINDY ANTHONY: Most of the pictures are shown have happened before June the 16th, and that`s the problem with this whole case. There`s been so many, you know, people out there that are putting things together that, you know, if you follow the timeline, it doesn`t add up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show defending the tot mom`s partying after Caylee goes missing. These shots are of her partying at club Fusian, including the night of a "hot body" contest, after she says the little girl goes missing.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon out of Atlanta, veteran defense attorney Peter Odom also out of Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" joining us out of New York.

Eleanor Dixon, you`d have to be blind to ignore those warnings on the chloroform Web site, Do not expose to children.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, you`re right, Nancy. And certainly, it goes to her state of mind and maybe her motive in wanting to deep little Caylee quiet at some point.

GRACE: To Mickey Sherman. Mickey, even if the theory emerges that she would chloroform little Caylee to keep her quiet and in the trunk so she could party at night and spend the night at her boyfriend`s, that would be an aggravated assault. And a death occurred. That would be a felony murder.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s no question about it, but the problem is, Why do we know about that? I mean, doesn`t this police department do anything confidentially? I mean, I`m not lauding her for...

GRACE: Well, why are you attacking them? That`s not even remotely close to what I asked you.

SHERMAN: Well, the problem is that even the asking of the questions and the fact that we know about this and that it`s been disseminated...

GRACE: That`s not the problem! The problem is the little girl is likely dead. That`s the problem, all right?

SHERMAN: Yes, but does this move us closer to finding that out?

GRACE: OK. Let me try with Peter Odom. What about it, Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there are very few innocent explanations for why someone would be trying to make chloroform. The problem for the defense here is not just that chloroform is connected with Casey, but the chloroform is connected with that trunk where a decomposing body was found. That`s a circumstance that`s going to be hard for the defense to explain, frankly.

GRACE: Mickey, do you think that part of their defense strategy is going to try to pin it on someone else that used the computer?

SHERMAN: If they can find anybody to pin it on, or at least to point a finger at, and have some basis for it -- as you know, most judges won`t let third-party culpability evidence in unless there`s some decent showing that that`s a possibility. But if they can find that -- I think that`s why they want the items suppressed because the contamination in the vehicle may be responsible.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Florida. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, being in Florida here, I watched the Anthonys try to collect money for searches for Caylee, but I don`t see any searches going on. I`m wondering what`s going on with all that money.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV. What about it?

BELICH: I`m sorry. She`s asking the about the money in the jail account?

GRACE: No. She`s asking about the money that the Anthonys allegedly collect to perform searches.

BELICH: Well, we have not been able to find out a lot about that. They started a new foundation. We`ve asked questions about that. We`ve gotten no answers. We don`t know if any money was donated. A previous fund -- there was less than $2,500 in that fund. So we haven`t been able to find a whole lot out about that.

GRACE: You know, Kathi Belich with WFTV, you just brought up the Casey Anthony jail money. Apparently, people are feeling sorry for her and donating money to her jail account, as opposed to the Find Casey account or Equusearch?

BELICH: That`s right. Apparently, there was a local woman who donate money to her here in central Florida. Also, a woman from California, who says she knows something about the jail experience, who donated money to her, as well, as well as her father donating money.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Why would people, anonymous people, people -- other people that have never met the tot mom, put money in her jail account so she can buy lingerie, high-end luxury items, shrimp cocktail, you name it, a huge commissary menu?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Nancy, these people feel sorry for her. They do not want to believe that a mother could do such a heinous thing. And I have to believe they`re identified with her in some way. Either they`ve been abused by a mother, they`ve abused their own children, maybe they`re drug addicts and neglected their own children, they know what it`s like to be put in jail.

But Nancy, I want to throw something else in. I do not believe that Casey Anthony used chloroform to subdue her child so that she could go out on a date. It doesn`t make sense. When you go on those Web sites, it says it irritates the eyes, it irritates the face. So did she Google how to make chloroform or -- and I`m going to be interested to know this -- did she Google child and harm, child, harm, poison, death? How did those Google searches begin because it just -- I can`t believe it just began with looking for chloroform, and I think the origin of the search is going to be really important.

GRACE: Then what do you believe they`ll find?

MARSHALL: I think -- I just had a producer here at CNN look up chloroform before going on the show, and she looked up chloroform and harm. She looked up poison and death. I mean, she got it really quickly. But we did not start with how to make chloroform. And when you saw the side effects, to thank she put a rag, potentially, if the allegations are true, on her child`s face, her child`s eyes, her child`s skin, knowing what that does to a toddler -- it`s a heinous, malicious, hateful act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your -- get your facts straight!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony feels her granddaughter, Caylee, is alive, even with test results indicating there was a dead body in the back of mother Casey Anthony`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s living in total denial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have hope right now?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Just as much as I did last week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now, I think she`s somewhere in Texas or even Puerto Rico.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an overpowering smell out in the back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first glance, she thought this may be the smell a body or decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s a possibility, yes. I mean, it`s a possibility. I mean, maybe my daughter ran over something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Patty California. Hi, Patty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question to you, since you`re an attorney and I know you have attorneys on your show -- my question is, with everything that she`s done in the public`s eye since this all started and the e-mails and the psychiatrist reports, do you think that her attorneys will try to claim some kind of insanity defense against her?

GRACE: Well, right now, we know that they are checking the chain of custody, everything to do with the car because the car has the most damning evidence. But what about it, Eleanor Dixon? Do you believe there`s any chance of an insanity defense?

DIXON: Well, of course, the defense attorneys are going to try that. You know, how often do we see that, Nancy? It happens all the time. But you`ve got to look at all the pieces of evidence which point to her guilt and her state of mind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Absolutely, she knows who has her. I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She`s coming home.

She`s leading to a place but she`s not telling me to the right exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee. My daughter has some mistruths out there or half truths, but she`s not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

C. ANTHONY: The same dogs that cleared our house. There`s no evidence that Casey had ever done any harm to her child.

She lived with me for three years, I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who`s aged 3, is alive. I`m going to find her. I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us.

I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The FBI lab results expected tomorrow morning. This is the defense gears up to begin cross examining state`s witnesses within the next week.

We are taking your calls live. Out to -- let me see, Nina in Michigan. Hi, Nina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, we love your show. My husband`s an attorney and we never miss you.

GRACE: Nina, thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the psychologist had said that a sociopath always with a bit of truth into their lives and Casey always seems to say that Caylee is close to home.

Is it possible that they buried Caylee under that cement patio near her playhouse that she loves so much and maybe in some sick way they used the chloroform as some sort of an embalming thing?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, that cement had been poured fairly recently, but I`m sure the police have checked that out.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Believe me, Orange County Sheriff`s Office in this investigation has crossed the Ts and dotted the Is.

The body is not there even though she went home and that`s why they got the hits on the 18th. She went home, but the body is by the airport where the pings show that she spent 18 minutes on the 27th, trying to figure out what to do.

There`s no doubt in anybody`s mind and that`s where the search is going to be concentrated to.

GRACE: To Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector -- Ron, thank you for being with us. Ron, do you believe that it`s significant that allegedly Casey Anthony made her own chloroform as opposed to purchasing it?

Online -- I guess, if she had purchased it online, though, what would she have used, her mom`s credit card?

RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, that`s it. If she purchased it online she would have left a trail. Obviously, this shows some type of premeditation. To what -- what she actually was premeditating we don`t know. We only suppose at this point.

But by trying to mix her own it shows that she was not trying to leave a trail.

GRACE: And to Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of L.A., do you believe she was trying to circumvent leaving a trail or some other reasoning for her do-it-yourself chloroform recipe?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": It is hard to say. You know she`s so cunning and manipulative, but this is a girl who never wanted to spend her own money. Remember she went shopping at Target after taking the checks. She stole gas from her own parents.

Did she just want to take stuff from her parent`s kitchen to get the chloroform so she didn`t want have to spend her own money? I`ve heard she`s not even spending on commissary items in jail. She just doesn`t want to spend her own money even when she has it to spend.

GRACE: Back to Lawrence Kobilinsky, he`s a famed -- famed forensic scientist with John J. College of Criminal Justice.

Dr. Kobilinsky, you are trying to tell me earlier about how chloroform can accidentally be made?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Yes. Absolutely. Just as Dr. Lambert explained. It is very easy to make it. But Nancy.

GRACE: No, no.

KOBILINSKY: Let me tell you something.

GRACE: He said it`s very easy. He didn`t mention anything about making it accidentally.

KOBILINSKY: Well, it can be made..

GRACE: As a matter of fact, you should pour it over ice to create it, that doesn`t sound like you`re doing it accidentally.

KOBILINSKY: Nancy, it can be made accidentally. But let me tell you something else. This is not forensic science 101. This is forensic science 201. Animal decomposition can result in hundreds of compounds, one of which is chloroform.

Chloroform can also be converted to carbon tetrachloride. Both of these substances can be found as a result of decomposition.

GRACE: Kobe, there was not a dead animal in the car up, under the car, on the hood of the car, in the trunk of the car. I see where you`re headed. That gives me insight into where the defense is headed.

They`re going to use her story that she or her father had run over an animal and it had created the horrible stench, but the reality is -- and I`ll go back to Ron Shindel on this -- cadaver dogs do not hit on animal remains, Ron, and I trained there myself at the Oakridge Laboratories in Tennessee.

There is a unit called the Body Farm there. They have evidence of human decomposition in the trunk, not animal decomposition, but human decomposition. It`s impossible for cadaver dog to hit on animal remains.

SHINDEL: Dogs are trained to hit on human remain, not animal remains. That`s the exact fact and that`s their job, that`s what they`re supposed to do.

GRACE: Out to the lines, to Sherry in Nevada. Oh, excuse me, Cheryl in Nevada. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. The gentleman that saw somebody looking like Casey Anthony with a bag and a shovel?

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they ever say what type of a bag that was because wouldn`t she have had to do something with the bag?

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what can you tell us about the detail that -- that`s one of three people that sighted her in that area?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, that man says that he actually saw her coming out of the woods. He also said that he actually saw somebody else out there, a male acting like he was fishing to kind of distract the public for anyone that may pass by from knowing what was actually going on.

But, you know, it hasn`t been a story that`s been confirmed but it is one of three sightings or possible sightings of Casey, you know, maybe dumping the body.

GRACE: What type of bag? Do we know?

PETRIMOULX: I`m not sure if that`s been reported yet. I don`t know.

GRACE: Kathi Belich with WFTV, do we know any more details about the bag?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: I do not know any more details about the bag. I believe that the shovel was in the bag as it was being carried in the trunk of the car, of the woman`s car was already open as she was running out of the woods.

So it appeared she was in a hurry and expecting to get out of there quickly with the impression.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.

You know, to Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, the insanity defense is something that Patty in California called in about.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: The search for chloroform, the disposal of the body all of that shows premeditation. How does premeditation or clear intent fit with an insanity claim?

ODOM: Well, it`s really hard to say at this point, but as the evidence mounts showing that Casey has guilty knowledge, as evidence mounts that there was a dead body in the trunk, that there was chloroform in there, the defense is going have to come up with some explanation consistent with the evidence.

That`s why, as I`ve said from the onset, this case is likely to end up with an insanity defense.

GRACE: Mickey?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I don`t agree. No jury these days buys insanity defenses even when they`re valid. I mean don`t forget Andrea Yates had to go through two trials before she was found insane.

Jeffrey Dahmer was found sane. People forget about that. We don`t like insanity defenses in this country. It just doesn`t fly and when you especially have a victim as non-worthy as this young girl -- why is she a non-worthy, (INAUDIBLE) it was such an unnecessary death and such a cruel death no matter who did it, no jury is going to buy it, Nancy.

GRACE: Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I`m glad to hear Mickey say that, I`d like him on my jury if I put every piece of evidence, which points to Casey`s guilt. The odor of chloroform, the cadaver dog hitting, the DNA, come on, she`s guilty.

GRACE: But insanity. I don`t see it, Bethany, there`s just too much intent. The ability to form, intent to do a crime, Bethany Marshall.

MARSHALL: Chloroform search, but she lied extensively to investigators over the course of many hours. That clearly shows she knew right from wrong. And remember, insanity is a legal concept, not a mental health concept.

From a mental health perspective you can be mentally ill like Andrea Yates and still know right from wrong.

GRACE: We are expecting the FBI lab results tomorrow morning. We`re standing by for that.

To Pam in Canada, hi Pam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your questions?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey`s legal bills must be astronomical and I`m just wondering who`s paying for those.

GRACE: Good question. To Kathi Belich from WFTV. Has Baez taken this pro bono?

BELICH: No, he says he`s being paid. He will not say who is paying him and the best we can do is they`ve apparently -- ABC did confirm that it paid some licensing fees for some photos. Other than that, we have no idea where the money is coming from.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I believe in my heart everything. We`re still getting tips and things like that that my grand daughter is still alive. She is alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my grand daughter is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. The next day, that house was burned. Morris` car and some personal belongings found a short distance away. Since then, hundreds have searched for Morris.

The sheriff`s office remains tight-lipped about much of the investigation. The fire at the house has been ruled an arson. Investigators are calling Kelly`s husband, Scott Morris, a person of office interest, but won`t release any further details.

Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re committed and we`re not going to give up until we find Kelly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Where is 28-year-old Kelly Morris.

Straight out to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. Rory, take it from the beginning. What happened?

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: Well, Nancy, good evening. Back on September 3rd it seems that Kelly Morris just disappeared. One day she was there, the next gone.

The family had assumed or some friends had assumed she had gone off to work but only later did they find that her car was parked a block away and her home was actually on fire.

That`s when police and firefighters were first -- learned of this woman`s disappearance. They go to the house. She is not there and that`s when the search begins.

Since then her husband Scott has been labeled as a prime suspect. He has not been contributing to the search and he is the man police are looking at very closely. They want to know where he was the night before she disappeared.

GRACE: And Rory, where does he say he was?

O`NEILL: He says he went to bed early. How the two have had been an estranged relationship, sleeping in separate bedrooms so he says he went to bed but he actually -- cell phone records indicate he was up late talking to his father and actually had his father come over and baby sit the kids, and he did leave the house for about an hour.

GRACE: You know, I want to go out to our lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.

You know, Mickey, in arson cases that I have prosecuted I recall distinctly people will -- perpetrators will take their car and move it, move it away from the structure, away from the building. That`s a dead giveaway of arson.

SHERMAN: Yes, and you know, don`t forget. When people plan these things they don`t plan them well. We`re not talking about criminal geniuses here. So it`s those little things.

And I -- I`m bothered by the fact that the guy is not searching for her. That`s weird. That`s just very strange.

GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. When was the last time she was seen?

O`NEILL: She was last seen at the home the night before. That is the only time -- that`s the last time the husband reports seeing her is before he went to bed and she said that -- he said that she had left to go out and look for a missing family dog, but it turns out the dogs were actually in their crates according to the kids the next day.

But the interesting thing is once firefighters got to the scene of the house and saw the house ablaze, the dogs were free and roaming around the backyard of that household.

GRACE: So typically, to Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector, if you are burning down the home, you`re burning down evidence. Evidence of what?

SHINDEL: Evidence of the crime you`ve committed. And in this case we have a missing person so the crime that could have been committed there could have been a homicide.

GRACE: With me right now is Kelly`s father Pat Currin.

Mr. Currin, thank you for being with us. What are police telling you?

PAT CURRIN, FATHER OF MISSING MOM OF 2 KELLY MORRIS: That we obviously -- you know they`ve told us that the house is ruled arson which you`ve already mentioned.

We know that, you know, we saw Kelly that night -- or we -- yes, we actually saw her the night before at 8 o`clock and I actually went to where Scott worked the next morning about 9:30 and he was there and everything seemed to be fine at that time and then about 12:20, that -- after lunch, one of the guys that he worked for called me and said that the - he said I`m not sure, but the right address is, I believe, Kelly`s house is on fire.

So at that time I tried to make a call to Kelly to at least let her know that the house was on fire and, you know, of course, I didn`t get her to answer the phone so I called Scott and he -- I asked him, I said, what was going on, and he said the house is on fire, so I`ll be down in a few minutes.

So I was in the next small town so I drove over as quick as I could get there.

GRACE: It`s interesting to me, Mr. Currin, about the house being set ablaze. Do you know where the fire started, what room?

CURRIN: You know, just from what the fire chief and everybody was telling me that the fire started in the back of the house.

GRACE: The back -- what room would that have been?

CURRIN: Well, they had a screened-in back porch in the back, I believe it started there from the fire chief said. It appeared to have started on the back porch.

GRACE: Do they being an accelerant was used like gasoline?

CURRIN: They`ve not told me what they thought was used. They just ruled it as arson is all they know.

GRACE: And -- so all they know is it`s arson. They don`t know how it was set.

CURRIN: If they do, they`ve not told me.

GRACE: Mr. Currin, have you learned anything about whether items were taken out of the home before it was set on fire?

CURRIN: I do not know.

GRACE: Did the husband have any items there?

CURRIN: Sure. I mean, you know, both of them were still living there. They had a rolled -- had a four-wheeler and lawn mower and stuff in the garage. They had -- you know, the firefighters have tried to save as much of their personal items as they could.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Gina in Pennsylvania. Hi, Gina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we know about this guy? This husband? Does he have any type of a criminal past? A violent history? Did they have a volatile relationship? What do we know about him other than he`s a person of interest?

GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, what do we know?

O`NEILL: State Bureau of Investigation did conduct its probe and they did find he did have a history of having a temper such as punching holes in the wall. One time he actually threw a computer out of the window so neighbors and friends into say Scott did have a bit of a temper.

GRACE: Is that true, Mr. Currin?

CURRIN: Yes, ma`am. Kelly had said that -- you know I had asked her when she said they were having problems and she had actually came to live in our house in June for about three weeks, and -- you know, said he had a bad temper.

But I asked her did he have -- you know, put his hands on her, she said he had not.

GRACE: What about the episode of throwing a computer out of the window? What was that about?

CURRIN: I don`t - I don`t know about that.

GRACE: Don`t know about that.

CURRIN: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Has she every been gone for a period of days without being in touch with you guys?

CURRIN: No, ma`am. Never.

GRACE: And how are her children?

CURRIN: Excuse me?

GRACE: How are her children tonight?

CURRIN: Well, the older child is, obviously, with her dad and the younger child is still with Scott.

GRACE: Mr. Currin, what have the children been told about their mom?

CURRIN: Well, that she`s missing and we`re looking for her.

GRACE: Everyone, the tip line, 919-963-3213. There is a $36,000 reward. Take a look at Kelly Morris, 28, Stem, North Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CURRIN: We are hoping for the best, but we obviously are preparing for the worst at this time. We`ve offered $30,000 and the governor of North Carolina has offered $5,000 and the CrimeStoppers has offered $1,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Morris` house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson. They`ve named her husband, Scott Morris, a person of interest in her disappearance.

Newly released search warrants indicate investigators are looking at Scott and Kelly Morris` bank records. The warrants also showed the couple had arguments where Scott punched holes in the wall and once threw a computer out the window.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Everybody, earlier on the show, one of the reporters said ABC paid for right to Anthony family photos. I want to clarify. It was NBC that paid for those rights.

Very quickly, back to this story, Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, is it true police have asked for bank records of the Morris?

O`NEILL: That was part of the -- part of the warrant that they had received.

GRACE: OK.

O`NEILL: . was to get information with those bank warrants as well as searching his vehicle.

GRACE: To Eleanor Dixon, what significance the bank records?

DIXON: It`s very significant because you could see where the husband`s interests lie, what he spends his money on and those can give you some very important clues.

GRACE: To Mary in Illinois, hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, about the cadaver dogs how they can tell the difference between human flesh and.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . and OK. Can a cadaver dog go in and tell the difference between regular ashes and human ashes, and is that why that guy set the house on fire to maybe explain away his wife`s disappearance?

GRACE: OK. A cadaver dog can hit on human remains. To my knowledge, cadaver dogs have not been brought into the home. There are no remains found in the home that we know of.

Everyone, let`s stop for a moment and remember Army Private First Class William Dix, 32, Carver City, California, set for a second tour, also served Korea in the Marines. Awarded the Army Commendation Medal, Overseas Service Ribbon and National Defense Service Medal.

Remembered for a sense of humor and devotion. Leaves behind parents, Barbara and William, sister Stephanie, brother Christopher.

William Dix, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially for you for being with us. And a very happy birthday to veteran prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. Finally 21.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/23/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Forensic Evidence Released in Missing Florida Toddler Case

Aired October 24, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 18 long weeks now.
Just hours ago, FBI lab results released, and it is a bombshell, the evidence confirming the scent of death, human decomposition, and extremely high levels of chloroform in mom Casey Anthony`s car trunk, the stunning results debunking a possible defense strategy to blame that stench and decomposition on a dead animal or a rotten pizza, the FBI even going as far as putting that rotten pizza theory to the test.

Plus, forensic experts confirm the decomposition in Casey`s car trunk is from a human and not an animal, this on the heels of reports the defense is set to demand all evidence connected to that car be thrown out of court. As the search for the little 3-year-old intensifies tonight, the big question, of course, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I found my daughter`s car today.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state attorney`s office has made public over 30 pages of FBI lab documents showing tests done on tot mom Casey Anthony`s car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says one of the hairs found in Casey`s car trunk shows signs of decomposition at the root, which indicates death, and says it`s consistent with hairs found on Caylee`s hairbrush.

CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the FBI says it found, quote, "an unusually large concentration" of chloroform, far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition, in the carpet sample from Casey`s trunk, where investigators found a mysterious stain.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lab says not only was there no pizza found in the trunk of the car, but they conducted their own decomposing pizza test in their lab, which showed no maggots on the pizza after testing.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There was an overpowering smell.

CINDY ANTHONY: That smell was terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And in other breaking news tonight, in the last hours, Hollywood superstar and Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother found dead at a Chicago home. Police on high alert for the shooter, and a 7-year-old boy in extreme danger tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news tonight. A shocking discovery in Chicago, where local media is reporting superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother were found dead inside the family home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first victim was a female found in the living room floor with a fatal gunshot wound. The second victim was a male subject found in the bedroom with a fatal gunshot wound.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for Hudson`s nephew, 7-year-old Julian King (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody that knows the whereabouts of the 7-year- old -- his name is Julian King. He`s 7 years old, male, African-American.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven-year-old Julian King missing with a man considered armed and dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, as the FBI releases lab results in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI lab documents have been officially released showing evidence of decomposition in both the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car and the root of a hair found in the vehicle.

CINDY ANTHONY: I smelled (ph) rotten whatever it was. Something decomposing in there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says there are hairs in the trunk that do not show signs of decomposition, and a hair consistent with Caylee`s which does, which could indicate Caylee was alive when she put into the trunk of her mother`s car and died in the trunk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the theory is that she basically placed Caylee in the trunk with a rag of chloroform, and she basically succumbed and died overnight.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: The trunk was open, the windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Results from air sample tests say there also appeared to be an unusually high concentration of chloroform in the trunk of the tot mom`s Pontiac Sunfire.

CINDY ANTHONY: Air samples don`t mean anything.

You guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin.

Caylee is not dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s close to home.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So many developments. Let`s go straight out to news director Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what is the very latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Jane, here are the articles right here. This is the report that was released today by the FBI dealing with the Casey Anthony case. FBI tests have concluded that human decomposition and traces of chloroform found in the back of Casey Anthony`s Sunbird (SIC), and that`s part of the report.

Now, the DNA tests concluded that the hair sample found in the back of the car could not be confirmed whether it`s Casey`s or Caylee`s. And they even took a sample from the hairbrush that Caylee used. But one of the things they did say, Jane, is that there was that -- the hair samples showed some decomposition of that hair strand at the bottom, as they call it, the dark band or the death band.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I`m looking at this report. It`s 35 pages, as you mentioned. It`s very detailed. It`s the kind of thing that us laypeople are going to have a hard time analyzing. But we`ve got forensic experts here tonight.

Let`s take a look at some of the conclusions of Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist. He`s going to analyze this in a second, but -- he read the whole thing. Here`s what he concluded. One, decomposition occurred in the trunk of the car. Two, that decomposition is human. Three, the decomposition lasted about 2.6 days. Four, the decomposing tissue included one human hair. Five, the human hair belongs to either Casey or Caylee Anthony, based on mitochondrial DNA analysis. And six, Casey Anthony is not decomposed. In other words, Casey is alive.

So Doctor, does this show that Caylee is, in fact, dead?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes. This is evidence that one of the hairs on Caylee`s -- well, either Caylee or Casey`s -- head is decomposed. And as we know, Casey is not decomposed. That leaves Caylee with a decomposed hair in the trunk of the car.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So now -- this has been stated often, but why can`t they get to the point where they can figure out exactly whose hair this is? This was a mitochondrial DNA test, but apparently, there are nuclear tests. There are more detailed tests that can be done on here. Is the fact that we didn`t get the root of this hair what`s standing between really identifying whether it`s Caylee or Casey`s once and for all?

ARNALL: Right. We each have both mitochondrial DNA in part of our cell and nuclear DNA in another part. What they were able to find is mitochondrial DNA. However, the other evidence -- that is, the evidence of decomposition -- suggests that whoever that hair belongs to, either Caylee or Casey, was decomposed. And as we know, Mom, Casey, is not decomposed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So basically, for our viewers, what you`re saying is that this hair shows signs of decomposition, which means a dead person. In other words, the person to whom this hair belongs is dead, right?

ARNALL: Right. This hair belongs to a person who`s dead and decomposed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. And therefore, it can only belong to one of two people, based on the DNA testing. That is either Caylee or Casey. And since Casey is clearly alive, even though she`s sitting in jail tonight, then wherefore, it has to belong to Caylee, wherefore, she is dead.

Let`s bring in Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. He is a forensic scientist and he is also a consultant to Casey Anthony`s defense team. Koby (ph), did you reach the same conclusion? And again, you`re working for the defense at this point. But did you reach the same conclusion that this says, basically, she`s dead, the child is dead?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Jane, let me address the issue that Dr. Arnall just raised. He was very clear that it`s either Casey or Caylee`s hair. That is supposed to be based on mitochondrial DNA analysis. What Dr. Arnall is not telling you is that mitochondrial DNA is not unique to an individual. But not only is it not unique because all maternally-related relatives have the same mitochondrial DNA, but also non- relatives -- there are certain non-related individuals that share the same mitochondrial DNA. So this is speculation. This is not scientific fact.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you`re saying that somebody accidentally dropped a piece of hair in the trunk, and they just happened to have the same exact DNA as Caylee and Casey, but it`s not Cindy because she`s alive, so it couldn`t be her hair, but it`s somebody else who then somehow ended up dead or was dead?

KOBILINSKY: Jane, Jane, I`m not saying anything of that sort. And as you know, I cannot comment on the specifics of a case that I`m working on. But I will say that the conclusion that this hair is either Caylee or Casey is simply not scientific. It`s a speculation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Dr. Arnall, you know, shoot back.

ARNALL: I agree with -- I agree with precisely what he said. And the defense will be confronted with the problem that someone who is dead and decomposed has mitochondrial DNA consistent with either Casey or Caylee. So you`ll develop a list of people in the neighborhood who could have been in the trunk and who are currently missing and decomposed to whom this hair might belong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s my point. That`s my point, Koby, is that, statistically, the probability of it being anybody else but Caylee is minute to the point of being ridiculous.

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, "statistically" is exactly the right word because we deal with statistics. We do not have a unique profile. The statistics may be more common than you would think. And the relevant population may not be in the block. It may be in the county or the state.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, this reminds me of the O.J. Simpson trial, when they started doing all the crazy DNA analysis that got to the point where nobody could understand what they were talking about. And basically, you know, it was sort of, like, in confusion, there is victory for the defense.

Do you think that that`s what they`re going to do? And let me bring in the lawyers for that -- Joe Episcopo, defense attorney, and Penny Douglas Furr. Do you think that`s what`s going to happen, Joe? In other words, they`re going to use the statistical possibility that it could possibly be somebody else within the concept of the universe, and they`re going to -- they`ll argue that therefore, you can`t prove that Caylee is dead?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes. You have to understand the defense function here. The defense does not have to prove anything. They only have to suggest reasonable doubt. And this is another reasonable doubt to suggest to the jury and get an inference that, Hey, it may not be correct. So the idea that the defense has to prove something is wrong. Remember that. What they have to do is put Dr. Koby on and take care of not only the hair but also the chloroform, which can be found naturally.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Penny, it`s common sense. I mean, yes, theoretically, hypothetically, within the bounds of possibility, it could be somebody else. But it`s -- it`s Caylee`s, according to just probability.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I have the same report that you have, and in the report, it says with the odor, that it could be of human origin -- not that it is, but it could be. Now, the defense could go very far with that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: It just seemed like -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: My husband`s a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says nearly all the compounds present in early human decomposition were detected in trunk samples, and compounds you would expect to find with animal decomposition were not found in her car trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Here it is, 35 pages of lab reports confirming a lot of what has been previously leaked regarding air, hair and chloroform. So what is Casey Anthony`s defense team saying about all this?

Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx, a reporter with WDBO radio. What is their reaction? Are they worried about this?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: No, just the opposite, actually. Jose Baez said today that, basically, the cat`s out of the bag. The prosecution has shown its hand and that they have nothing, or at least what they have has a lot of holes in it. And while there is some very, you know, concerning, damning even, evidence in these reports, there is also, you know, throughout the reports, words like "not definite" and "preliminary" and "remote possibility." So basically, he says that this casts a shadow of a doubt on the whole prosecution`s argument and that people should be out now looking for Caylee because she`s still alive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me go to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with the Santa Ana PD, who probably gets as aggravated as I do when we hear crazy defense scenarios and it`s sort of, like, anything possible becomes reasonable doubt. Now we hear that the defense possibly will argue that all evidence connected to this car -- in other words, all of the forensics we`re talking about right now -- should be thrown out because it`s possible that other people had access to this car. Do you think that`s going to happen?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: No. I think that when you throw out evidence, it`s because people`s constitutional rights were violated. There were no violations here. And frankly, the chain of evidence seems to be pretty solid to the extent that we know that car has been in a garage. We`ve seen pictures of it. So that doesn`t seem to be a problem.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I think what they`re saying is, sometime after Casey Anthony abandoned it to when it was towed away, that somehow, somebody else may have gotten in there and put this theoretical person that isn`t Caylee`s DNA or hair into the trunk.

SCHWEITZER: Jane, I think that they`re going to be poking holes at this evidence, and that`s why the prosecution and the police can`t just rely on this evidence. I agree with some of your other guests that this doesn`t carry the day. There are some problems with it. But it`s good evidence in light of all of the evidence that they have. And the police have to keep digging, keep interviewing people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. The phone lines have lit up, so many questions about this bombshell evidence just coming in. Pam from Wisconsin. Your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I love the show. With the chloroform that she was looking up on the computer, everyone`s talking about, well, they don`t know if Casey was the one who looked it up. Couldn`t they take fingerprints off the computer and find out who`s actually used it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace producer. Obviously, one of the lab findings was the presence of chloroform. Tell us a little about that, and then the searches on the computer, Casey Anthony`s computer, for chloroform.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Jane, there was chloroform, a residue of chloroform, found not only in the trunk but in also in the right and left side liner of the trunk of the car. And also, those searches that were on the computer, we don`t know for sure if it was Casey, but it was under Casey`s log-in name. And we don`t know the date of those searches, but it was searches for recipes for chloroform.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Now, Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist and author of "My Therapist Is Making Me Nuts" -- great title -- I`ve heard speculation that people -- and I`m speaking hypothetically -- use chloroform to knock out their kids when they want to go dancing, and that drug addicts sometimes do this. They want to leave their kids, they don`t have a baby-sitter, and they just give them something to knock them out, and sometimes the kids overdose.

MARK HILLMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, to be honest with you, Jane, I truly haven`t heard that. But let`s take a look -- not only from the forensic evidence, but let`s take a look, more importantly, from the psychological and behavioral aspects of Casey. Right before you went to break, you hear Cindy saying, Casey loves Caylee. Now, June 15, she went missing. It was Cindy, not Casey, who a month later called the police and saying that there was a smell of a dead body decomposing. Now, then she changes her story to it`s pizza. Then Casey says the police have this vendetta against her, with a persecution complex. And you begin to question it right from the very beginning of her behavior.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go back to the forensic experts. You heard pizza mentioned because Cindy at one point had said, Dr. Arnall, that, Oh, the smell in the trunk, the foul smell is pizza, it rotted, there were maggots. Apparently, tests were done that debunked that. Tell us about that.

ARNALL: It`s not pizza. They actually went ahead and decomposed a pizza. Their observations were that both the organic and inorganic compounds found in the trunk are of human origin and not a pizza origin. And they made the further observation that when they decomposed a pizza, there were no maggots on the pizza. And this makes some sense. Maggots characteristically like a big juicy piece of decomposing tissue and...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, this makes me sick. All right...

ARNALL: Well, you asked.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no. I understand. I was trying to bring a little levity to a very, very, very depressing and sad situation. But let me -- let me...

ARNALL: My point is that the pizza is going to dry out before it decomposes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Basically, it wasn`t a pizza, Dr. Kobilinsky, and...

ARNALL: It was not a pizza.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and so...

ARNALL: Not a pizza.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... they eliminated that explanation. They also eliminated, Koby, the possibility that it was an animal causing the smell in that trunk. So where does that leave us? Because those were the two excuses that were put forth that obviously now have been debunked.

KOBILINSKY: Well, I`m not so sure that their conclusion is correct. They`ve eliminated the possibility of animal decomposition. I`m not convinced of -- of that as a fact. Experts will come to different opinions based upon their tests and observations.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, really, is that the way this case is going to be argued? In other words, science doesn`t exist? It`s kind of, like, we can`t trust anything scientific?

KOBILINSKY: No, Jane -- Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You wouldn`t want that.

KOBILINSKY: Well, of course.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Your life is about science.

KOBILINSKY: No, I believe in science. But Jane, I do not speak for the defense, and I`m not -- I can`t tell you what strategies are going to be applied. I`m just pointing out that it`s clear to me pizza will not produce the kind of chemicals that you would have in animal or human decomposition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Thirty- five pages of damning lab reports from the FBI in today. Meanwhile, Casey Anthony sits in jail with no bond possible. And she got her first visitor today who wasn`t part of the legal team.

Natisha Lance, tell us about that.

LANCE: I`m sorry. Could you repeat that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. The visitor today, the minister who visited her?

LANCE: The minister -- he is actually someone who has been helping them with these vigils that they`ve been having. And recently, the vigils have not been at the Anthony home anymore. They`ve moved to this church where this pastor is. He came and visited Casey this morning for a few hours.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I have to ask, Leonard Padilla, why a minister? What does that say about Casey`s mental state?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it doesn`t really say anything, other than I believe the minister`s conversation with her would be privileged. And she can create a message system between her, the minister, and Cindy and George, and Lee, even, that will not be -- it`s privileged, just like if it was an attorney. So instead of the attorneys taking time to go over to the jail, they sent the minister over.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police spoke with the facility manager of the tow truck company that was holding Casey Anthony`s car, and he told cops that the smell coming from Anthony`s car reminded him of a smell from another car where a man committed suicide.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it is towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She said that she either went down to this tow yard and spoke to the gentleman who gave a statement to police who said that there was this odor, and he said that that smell does not start until a week after it had been at the tow yard.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy Anthony has even suggested that someone planted someone`s body in the trunk while it was here at Johnson`s Wrecker Service in East Orlando.

ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Thirty-five pages of lab reports just coming in confirm what had been leaked previously, regarding air, hair and chloroform. Meantime, Casey Anthony sits in jail, no bond.

I want to bring in the lawyers, because Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter just said, hey, they`re sending in a minister -- and this his theory, you know, we don`t confirmation on this, obviously, because there is privilege there, and so she can talk to him without the Sunshine laws having that conversation ending up on the local news.

We, of course, remember that a lot of the conversations Casey had in jail ended up literally playing on this show and all over the country.

Do you think that`s actually happening with this minister? And I`ll go to Penny Douglass Furr on that.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, most likely they are having conversations that are privileged. But what I wanted to say is, if there are conversations that are being carried then to her family, then you destroy the privilege.

So anything that`s discussed between the two of them is privileged. But once it goes to a third party, it`s not protected anymore.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Do you think, Joe Episcopo, that the authorities could actually prove that or do they have to just assume that the minister is doing what he`s doing, you can`t mess with the minister?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you could subpoena him and the parents, put them under oath and ask him, what did he tell you? And then they`d have to answer the question.

So that`s one way to find out if it happened, and besides, he doesn`t -- the minister doesn`t have a right to give away that privilege and tell someone else. You can`t do that. It`s like attorney/client.

I can`t ever reveal it unless my client tells me to do it or my client does it. And, again, if a third person is in my office and someone is revealing me something, that other person hears it, it`s not privileged.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well.

EPISCOPO: So the privilege is controlled.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, this was your theory. Is there any other explanation for why her parents and her brother have not visited her in jail since she was re-arrested after the murder indictment came down?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, you said it at the first part of your statement, and when we were back there, we had a young lady actually living with her, 24/7, traveling to the attorney`s office back and forth for nine days.

There is a lot of things that the young lady knows that she hasn`t revealed and I have not asked her. But one of the things that they were very upset about was that they could not communicate with each other in the jail or on the phone without it being taped or recorded.

So my thing, and -- the attorney, Mr. Episcopo there told you what happens. And that is that I have no doubt, and the way the family thinks, I have no doubt the minister is the one that`s carrying the messages.

And eventually, law enforcement or the FBI is going to subpoena the parents, and ask them. Because.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what are they achieving by all this alleged subterfuge that we certainly can`t confirm? What -- what kind of communications?

PADILLA: If it --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She has lied to her mother and father over and over again so.

PADILLA: Here`s the thing. Casey might lie to the parents. Cindy will lie to the media. One day she says there was a body decomposing in there, the next day she says it was pizza.

One day she tells us that Casey bought the cross at JCPenny for Caylee. Caylee had been dead for days.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what`s your point? Your point is.

PADILLA: Well, the point is that the family lied.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is mom in denial? Maybe they`re in -- let`s bring in the shrink.

PADILLA: No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist, I mean, nobody can blame a mother for defending her child. I mean, since time in memorial, every defendant has always had their parents there, for the most part, you know, proclaiming their innocence long after -- look at Scott Peterson, you know?

MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "MY THERAPIST IS MAKING ME NUTS": You`re absolutely right, Jane. In the sense that if you`ve lost your granddaughter, why would you want to lose your own daughter? So I think the parents are acting out of a nurturing and protective instinct, as I think most parents would.

We sit here and we judge that, but, again, it`s still a father and a mother trying to do everything they can to protect their own daughter, their own issue.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, nobody knows what it`s like to be Cindy and George Anthony, except Cindy and George Anthony, because they have been through hell and back, I mean, just looking at this video of everything that`s happened to them and the protests outside their home.

Margaret, Colorado, you`ve been hanging on for a while. What is your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just wondering why she doesn`t look traumatized. I lost a grandson in a flash flood last year, and my -- daughter-in-law is traumatized. She shows no emotion. No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you`re referring to who shows no emotion?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother of this child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know -- oh Casey, yes, Casey. Well, we`re going to have to go back to the shrink one more time. I mean there is a lack of affect, except she does seem to smile sometimes when she sees that a lot of cameras are on her.

HILLMAN: Look, we need to understand something that right from the very beginning, when I was on this show, July 25th, I gave a diagnosis of schizoid affect disorder. There is no remorse, there is no emotion.

The problem with what`s going on right now is if you have there is if you have a broken leg, you can see that. But you can`t see true clinical mental illness. That`s the issue that the docs and the forensics will point out in their report.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Ruth, California, your question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, thank you for taking my call. I`m wondering if the maggots they recovered from the car can be tested for DNA, chloroform, anything else that may have been used on Caylee, and if it would be more conclusive than the hair.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB. Did they actually recovery maggots from the car?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That -- I really don`t know, Jane. That`s an interesting question. But, you know, one thing we`ve got to take into consideration.

Even though there -- the Body Farm says there was an 80 percent conclusion that there was a body in the back of the car, we don`t know who it was, you know, the cadaver dogs hitting in the backyard and in the car during the initial investigations.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, absolutely. You know, I want to go back to Donald Schweitzer, a former detective with the Santa Ana P.D., we`re talking about Casey Anthony, sitting in jail, obviously for a long time.

Everybody was hoping that she would somehow tell the whole story, and somehow that would lead to finding Caylee Anthony. Now that she is sitting there, now that she cannot get out on bond, now that she is charged with first-degree murder and a host of other charges, and she has two trials looming, do you think that there is a possibility, and you`ve interviewed suspects of all kinds, even those who were a little cuckoo, that she could crack?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: At this time, I think that she`s so lawyered up that the police are never going to get back to her. They`ve lost their opportunity. She has got a protective bubble. I don`t know if this clergyman is coming in there to -- you know to protect the communications, but I`m sure that the attorneys aren`t going to ever let her make another statement that`s incriminating.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, I was kind of naive when I first heard clergyman coming in, I thought, you know, maybe she found religion and maybe she`s sort of having a change of heart as often happens with people in prison, suddenly they -- you know, they become different people entirely.

And let`s bring in the attorneys. I mean, what is going on here? Do you think that the prosecution is just preparing for trial, or are they going up and saying, hey, you know, Florida is a death penalty state, you tell us what really went on, you lead us to the body and you know, we`re not going to go for the death penalty? Joe?

EPISCOPO: This isn`t a death penalty case. You don`t have aggravating factors, since you don`t have a body. And you won`t get a death penalty, and there is no point in trying to go for that.

But as far as the minister goes, maybe he is comforting her. Maybe she does need some psychological help. The attorneys can go in there. Their communications are privileged, too. I just think we`re making too much out of this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know, Penny Douglass Furr, if you could say absolutely, certainly, that this is not a death penalty case. There are aggravating and mitigating factors, and in the death penalty phase, they have a mini trial to determine if there are more mitigating or more aggravating factors.

One of them is the age of the victim if the child is under 12. So isn`t that one of the factors?

DOUGLASS FURR: It is. However, I think it`s got to be a little more than it could be, or it would be or it may be. And all these scientific reports are saying, it could be her hair, it may be decomposition in the air.

I think for -- especially for the death penalty, the jury wants to know absolutely that is what happened. And their theory does not exclude every other reasonable theory.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to have to leave it there for a second. We`ve got a lot more on the story in just a moment.

In the meantime, a horrific story, the desperate search for a male suspect in the rape and brutal attack of a 16-year-old Chicago girl. The teen victim forced by knifepoint into an alley where she was assaulted, beaten, and her throat slashed.

The perpetrator described as 5`9", 130 pounds, wearing a dark hoodie. A $10,000 reward if you have any information, please call Chicago Police, 312-746-8282.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking discovery in Chicago where local media is reporting superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother were found dead inside the family home. An AMBER Alert has been issued for Hudson`s nephew, 7-year-old, Julian King.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first victim was the female, found in the living room floor, has a fatal gunshot wound. The second victim was a male subject found in a bedroom with a fatal gunshot wound.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. Heart breaking news for Hollywood superstar and Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. Hudson`s brother and mother both found dead in Chicago, and topping it all off, a 7-year-old relative has been snatched from the crime scene and is missing tonight.

For the very latest, let`s go straight out to reporter Kathy Chaney with the "Chicago Defender." She is live at the scene of this double murder.

Kathy, what is the very latest?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: The very latest is the police right now are positioning the police vans to bring the bodies out. What we know right now that there are unconfirmed reports that the man they suspect has the 7-year-old boy is his father, William Balfour.

Like I said, those are unconfirmed reports that it is his father, and that`s the connection of Jennifer Hudson`s mother, Darnell Hudson, was found shot in the head in the home`s -- sorry, living room, and her brother -- I believe he`s 29-year-old, her brother Jason was found shot in the chest in one of the bedrooms.

Neighbors said that they heard gunshots earlier this morning, and then another relative came to the home later on, a few hours later, and discovered Jennifer`s mother, called the police, and when the police came, they discovered the body of her brother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I understand that this child who is missing is the nephew of Jennifer Hudson, it is believed? Would that necessarily make the suspect that they`re pursuing the brother of Jennifer Hudson, the other brother?

Or could you explain the familial connections there?

CHANEY: The unconfirmed reports -- what we`re -- what the speculation is, is that the man who has taken or who has allegedly taken the 7-year-old nephew, Julian King, may be the boy`s father.

The boy`s mother is Julia. I`m not sure where she is right now. I know there are some family members that are on the scene, but they haven`t said who they are exactly, but we`re suspecting that it is the father of the boy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So it`s the father of the boy, but I`ve just been told by producers that it`s not believed to be any brother of Jennifer Hudson.

Now what about motive here? We`ve heard domestic abuse. What exactly does that mean? And can you define the motive a little bit better?

CHANEY: Right now, we just have the preliminary reports that it is just domestic-related. We have no other updates right now for that. I know that the William Balfour who they are looking -- the suspect that has taken the boy, reportedly stole the brother -- the dead brother`s vehicle, the white Chevy Suburban.

I believe that is on the AMBER Alert. So we`re just waiting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What are they looking for now in terms of a vehicle, in terms of a suspect description, and in terms of this child?

There is a high-risk child who is missing right now, a 7-year-old boy. His name is Julian, and he is apparently 135 pounds, which is quite a bit of weight for his age, but this is the description we want to give it to you, because if you see this child, and maybe we can put up a picture of this child, immediately contact the authorities.

So what -- what are they looking for in terms of a vehicle, in terms of suspect description?

CHANEY: In terms of the vehicle, he may be in a white Chevy Suburban. On the AMBER Alert, there are the -- Illinois license plate tags, and -- or he may be in a green or teal Chevy Concord four-door. That`s the kind of car that he may be in.

Now, as far as William Balfour, I don`t have his height or weight, but he is an African-American male. He does have some hair on his head. We don`t have much of a description for him right now at this point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I understand that you`re there at the scene, live, and you`re just watching authorities as they do their preliminary investigation.

Once again, we`re talking about -- and Jennifer Hudson`s publicist has confirmed, in fact, that it`s her mother and brother who have been shot, and of course, Jennifer Hudson won an Oscar for "Dreamgirls." She became famous, initially, on "American Idol," and she was voted off, and people were angry because she is so incredibly talented.

What a tragedy for her.

Donald Schweitzer, former detective with the Santa Ana P.D., what do they do now to find this person and, as we all know, unfortunately, domestic violence is so common?

SCHWEITZER: I think first they have to look at whether or not there has been any family law cases where they can look at addresses on pleadings.

I don`t know if this man was actually living with the victims or not. But if they weren`t, they could go straight to the mother, look for family law pleadings, try to locate where this guy is.

They`ve got to be very careful, though, because this kid`s safety is number one priority, so they`re going to have to be careful in trying to rein this guy back in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course, especially because he could be with this child. And this poor child, who is possibly traumatized by quite possibly witnessing this violence.

Let me go back to Kathy Chaney. Is the child believed to have witnessed the violence?

CHANEY: We don`t know that at this point. When family members came, that`s when they discovered that the boy that was in the home, he was missing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

CHANEY: The car was missing, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to have to leave it there. We pray that this child is found OK.

Tonight, CNN Heroes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

DANA DELANEY, ACTRESS: Look how I`ve changed.

I did a television movie called "For Hope," based on the little-known disease, scleroderma. It`s an autoimmune disease, where your body can over produce collagen, rather than making your skin softer it makes it harder. So many people are so disfigured. They don`t want to go out in public and they don`t want to talk about it.

I`m Dana Delaney and my hero is helping to find ground-breaking research to find a cure for scleroderma.

LUKE EVNIN, MEDICAL MARVEL: I`m committed partly because I am a patient. I was diagnosed with scleroderma in 1998. I don`t look sick. And most of the time I don`t feel sick.

But I`ve decided to go make a difference for other scleroderma patients who aren`t so lucky. This can affect almost all the other organ systems.

We still don`t know why someone gets scleroderma. And today it doesn`t have a cure. So I wanted to spend a couple of minutes and see if we could get caught up a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn again on the side, please.

EVNIN: The scientists do feel like there`s someone looking over their shoulder. I think that does drive them to put everything they can into it. It`s hard to cause scleroderma anything but a curse. There are patients out there that I feel are counting on me.

I want to work for them.

DELANEY: Luke just does it. And that to me is a hero. Don`t just talk about it, do it.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now, CNN.com/heroes.

CNN Heroes is sponsored by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was on Casey Anthony`s home computer, looking up recipes for the deadly chemical chloroform.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: What mom is online getting a recipe for chloroform? I mean, I`ve looked up chicken pot pie and shepherd`s pie and Waldorf salad. But chloroform?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Friends describe Little Rock, Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly as a kind person. Kind to everyone. But did she have an enemy who would leave her for dead in her own bed?

GRACE: When you have multiple hits that shows a certain rage that screams to me, not random.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. Morris` house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson.

GRACE: With me right now is Kelly`s father Pat Currin.

Mr. Currin, what have the children been told about their mom?

PAT CURRIN, FATHER OF MISSING MOM OF 2 KELLY MORRIS: Well, that she`s missing and we`re looking for her.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: You can combine bleach and alcohol and inadvertently manufacture chloroform. What we really don know are the levels of chloroform. We are hearing trace amounts.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, right there. Right there. BS-o-meter is going off. How do you inadvertently mix bleach with acetone, Kobe?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Mark Stone, 22, from Buchanan Dam, Texas, killed in Iraq. On a second tour. Also served in Afghanistan. Awarded the Purple Heart, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal and National Defense Service Medal.

He loved restoring his truck and dreamed of being a minister to the troops. He leaves behind father Don, older brother Jason, and best friend Zane.

Mark Stone, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. See you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. In the meantime, have a happy and a safe weekend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/24/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Jennifer Hudson`s Nephew Found Shot to Death

Aired October 27, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner devastated. In an apparent home invasion, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, the boy kidnapped from the scene.
In the last hours, a little boy`s body has been positively identified as Hudson`s nephew. We are live in Chicago. As we go to air, police announce no suspects. Hudson jets to Chicago to ID the bodies of her family. Tonight, Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American dreamgirl, American nightmare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIA HUDSON, MOTHER: All I ask, I don`t care who you are, just let my baby go. Please. (INAUDIBLE) He`s 7. Let my son go. Please, that`s all I ask!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can confirm that the body located inside the vehicle was the body of 7-year-old Julian King.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news out of Chicago today, where police have found a child`s body in the back seat of that white SUV. The boy has been missing since the Friday shooting deaths of Hudson`s mother and brother at their South Side home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragically, the search efforts ended shortly after 7:00 AM this morning. Chicago police responded to a call of a suspicious vehicle parked at 1313 South Kolin. William Balfour in the custody of Illinois Drew Peterson of Corrections for violating conditions of parole and remains a person of interest in this investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOMEZ: And tonight, breaking news. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 19 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Stunning FBI lab results are in and they confirm death, human decomposition, in mom Casey`s car, along with extremely high levels of chloroform. The stunning FBI lab results torpedo any possibility that pizza or a dead animal was responsible. The massive search for Caylee gears up. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court tomorrow morning. And still not a single visit to the jailhouse by grandparents George and Cindy Anthony. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. A hearing is scheduled hours from now for tot mom Casey Anthony, where a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and six other charges in connection with her daughter`s disappearance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Documents recently released show evidence of human decomposition in Anthony`s car, as well as unusually high levels of chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says there are hairs in the trunk that do not show signs of decomposition, and a hair consistent with Caylee`s which does, which could indicate Caylee was alive when she was put into the trunk of her mother`s car and died in the trunk. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony remains behind bars on no bond and could face the death penalty. Meanwhile, Texas Equusearch is preparing to return to Orlando, along with bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, to continue the search for little Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The singer and Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson and her family, already mourning the deaths of her mother and brother, now have to come to the grips with the murder of a child. Seven- year-old Julian King has been found in that SUV, found dead.

JULIA HUDSON: I love you. Your mama`s looking for you. I`m not going to stop until you come home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family just in the last three days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Julian was found on the West Side of Chicago. The body was found early this morning around at 8:00 AM. Soon after, a neighbor walking his dog -- the dog started howling at the car. When police got there, they opened the car and found the boy inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven-year-old Julian King has been missing since Friday, when his grandmother, 57-year-old-year-old Darnell Donerson, and uncle, 29-year-old Jason Hudson, were found shot to death in their Englewood (ph) home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was at least one report that whoever killed the mother and brother in that house blasted through the front door, shooting through the front door, and shot them even before this person got inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old William Balfour, the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, is considered a person of interest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He spent seven years in prison for attempted murder and carjacking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve got two crime scenes. Oftentimes, there`s a lot of evidence left at a crime scene, and I suspect that we`ll have some evidence that will link us to the killer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I don`t understand it. Straight out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home there in Chicago. They`ve got a vehicle turned casket, and they don`t have a suspect? They can`t tell me whose car it is?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. And I`m thinking the same thing you are, Nancy. And I`m also thinking if they`ve had this William Balfour in custody for three days now, who was driving that van around, that SUV around that was just discovered in that neighborhood this morning with the boy`s body in back? Who was that, an accomplice, somebody else?

GRACE: Well, OK, here`s the sticking point with that theory. How long had the vehicle been there? The vehicle could have been there since before the stepfather was picked up.

ROESGEN: Except, Nancy, that we talked to a neighbor today who says he lives three blocks away and that car was not there before this morning.

GRACE: And let me clear up, there is no suspect in custody tonight. This is an apparent home invasion. Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime. She flies home to Chicago to identify the bodies of her mother and brother. After breaking the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, we can now confirm as we go to air a body has been identified as the little boy`s.

Straight out to Lisa Boesky. Dr. Boesky, you know, if -- this screams domestic violence to me because the front door was actually shot. I don`t know the direction yet. But a burglar doesn`t do that. A robber doesn`t do that. Someone enraged does that. Who in their right mind would take it out on a 7-year-old boy?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, somebody who wants to hurt someone. They took somebody`s most precious possession. That`s what that kidnapping was all about. And to kill him -- her most precious possession. It looks domestic to me, as well. But someone who knows how to use a gun.

GRACE: Back out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home there in Chicago. Tell me what you know, Susan, about the break-in itself, about the mode of attack.

ROESGEN: Well, as far as we know, Nancy, it was a gun. They have not recovered a gun. We understand that the brother was shot first, then the mother was shot. And there is this report going around that whoever did it shot through the door. But Chicago police would not confirm that today.

And Nancy, that`s another reason why some people say maybe it isn`t domestic. William Balfour lived at this house here behind me, where people have gathered for this kind of impromptu memorial tonight. He lived there until the mother kicked him out about six months ago. So he could have knocked on the door, Nancy. He didn`t have to blast his way in if he intended to shoot people inside.

GRACE: And could you tell me, Susan, what this guy is out on parole for?

ROESGEN: Bad dude, Nancy. He spent seven years in prison for attempted murder and carjacking. And yet he married Julia Hudson, the sister of Jennifer Hudson, in `06, after he got out of the pen. And he said that he has -- apparently, he`s known these girls, all the Hudson family, ever since they were kids.

GRACE: And he has not been named a suspect. He is, however, a person of interest. So he only did seven years on attempted murder? In that jurisdiction, he could have gotten up to 30 years for that.

ROESGEN: You know, Nancy, all I can say is this. He`s a person of interest. The police have had him now for three days. Finally, they had no evidence to keep him, and so they got the Illinois Department of Corrections to get him still in custody on a parole violation. Nancy, that makes me think that they don`t have the goods on this guy.

GRACE: Let`s go to Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, how did this all go down?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": As far as the whole incident?

GRACE: Yes, tell me.

CHANEY: OK. As far as we know, Julia Hudson, the sister, was actually the one who went inside the home and discovered her mother and her brother dead. And then that`s when she reported her son and the white Suburban that was registered to her brother missing. There is a gunshot that you can clearly see through the front door. So we -- we`re not sure if William Balfour was the one who did it, if he was seen at the home days before or right after. That is unclear right now. And as Susan said, no weapon has been recovered yet.

GRACE: Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing outside the victims` home. OK, if other family members are there, why did Jennifer Hudson have to go and identify the bodies?

ROESGEN: You know, actually, Nancy, she didn`t. I think that was sort of a misstatement from the Cook County medical examiner`s office. Her sister, Julia, had already identified the bodies. She discovered them, in fact. And it was she who called Jennifer Hudson in Tampa and said, You`ve got to get home here.

GRACE: OK, hold on. I have an Associated Press wire that has just come in that says Jennifer Hudson and six other family members IDed the bodies at the medical examiner`s office via image on video screen. That has just come in.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. Is that a new development? You don`t have to go in for them to pull out the body and unzip it, you can actually do it through a video image?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: That`s exactly right. Many modern medical examiners` offices either have closed-circuit TV, or they can view their loved one through a glass window.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president of Klaas Kids Foundation. Why the death of the child? Why?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, Nancy, I suspect that this had something to do with domestic abuse. Obviously, this was not just some random act. And my theory would be that -- that they took the boy, that there was some twinge of consciousness. The little boy was an ID -- would be able to ID the killer. He took him and ultimately decided to destroy him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we all still are in a state of shock. You know, it hurts. Can`t do nothing, but it hurts, you know? So we`re together. So we sit and we pray. You know, I don`t know nothing else to do but pray. That`s all I know to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family just in the last three days. A woman who is from Chicago, she`s considered a local girl, was working at a Burger King when she first auditioned for "American Idol." Now she`s become a big, big star, of course, but she said that always came home to her family`s home, this place where her mother and brother and sister and the boy all lived.

JENNIFER HUDSON, SINGER/ACTRESS: I`ve always had a positive upbringing and positive people around me, you know? So that definitely helped out. And even when I feel down, I`m still -- like, I don`t want to do this anymore, I can`t do it anymore, my mother was there to say, You know what? This is what you have to do. You have to hold on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: "American Idol" turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s life is rocked by crime. She was extremely close to her mother. Now her mother and brother and 7-year-old nephew have been murdered.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Ellen in New York. Hi, Ellen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quick comment. Thank you, and especially Mike Brooks, too, and the rest of your team for everything you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how you do this night after night.

GRACE: I don`t, either. I don`t, either, I can tell you, especially now that I`ve got the twins.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.

GRACE: It`s just changed everything. You know, I thought I knew it all about being a crime victim until I had them. And I just can`t imagine what Jennifer Hudson is going through right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t, either. And my question -- I have two quick questions.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One is, is the Suburban that they found her poor nephew in -- was that the car originally reported stolen from the original crime scene? And have they not -- or have tests not come back yet on any gunshot residue that may have been on the ex-brother-in-law?

GRACE: Excellent question. Out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by tonight outside the victims` home there in Chicago. What do we know about the vehicle stolen from the scene?

ROESGEN: Nancy, it was reported stolen right after the bodies were discovered. It was Jason Hudson`s, the brother`s, car. Reported stolen, it was part of the Amber Alert, so the cops were looking for this car everywhere, even across state lines. They brought in the FBI. And then they found it less than 20 miles away from where I`m standing right now. As far as gun residue, that`s part of the investigation. They have not found a gun or guns, according to the police, and they won`t talk about any shell casings or residue or anything like that.

GRACE: Well, let me clarify. Let me ask you this, Susan. So you`re saying the Suburban that was found with the 7-year-old boy dead inside is the vehicle stolen from the scene?

ROESGEN: Absolutely.

GRACE: So that vehicle, Mike Brooks, is not going to give us any indication as to whom the perp is -- who the perp is because it`s a stolen vehicle unless you can get a fingerprint off of it. Let`s clarify also about the gunshot residue. Gunshot residue -- when you fire a weapon, a little bit -- invisible to the naked eye -- gunshot residue comes back on your hand, on your wrist. It can get on your clothing. It can go about two feet, diameter, from the weapon, when the weapon is fired. However, Mike Brooks, you can just wipe your hands on your clothes, much less, you know, wash your hands, and it`s gone.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, you can, for the most part, Nancy. But what they`re going to be able to do -- we don`t know if they have gotten any ballistics at all from inside that vehicle. We do know that the little boy, the little 7-year-old boy, he was shot. So what they`re going to do is they`re going to make a comparison from the evidence they have at the original crime scene at the house, and they`re going to compare that to the evidence that they recovered inside that vehicle.

Now, we don`t know if the little boy was shot inside that vehicle or if he was shot somewhere else and then put into that vehicle. We just don`t know that. So we have at least two crime scenes now, Nancy. But there could be another crime scene somewhere, where he was actually murdered.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in Canada. Hi, Sandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. We love you here.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are a saint. You`re an absolute saint.

GRACE: Well, I do not deserve that, but...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you do.

GRACE: ... thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes -- no, you do. I`ve been trying lots. You are. You are a saint. I have a quick question.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or an observation. Is it just me or -- her stardom is wonderful, it`s beautiful, and I think somebody has conspired to -- it`s a money conspiracy thing because of her stardom.

GRACE: So you`re saying that this was for ransom or out of jealousy or they were trying extort money?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: OK. Let`s take a look at that. Out to the lawyers. Let`s unleash them. We`re taking your calls live. In New York, defense attorney Randy Zelin and veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Alex Sanchez. Alex Sanchez, impossible. There was no ransom note that we know of. There was no communication to Jennifer Hudson, I want money. Bottom line is, if you want money in exchange for extortion, you don`t go ahead and kill the target right there on the scene and then expect to get money.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I think a lot of suspicion is on this fellow Balfour. But you know, I`m beginning to wonder if this is some type of a gang invasion that has taken out revenge on this family for some still undisclosed reason at this time.

GRACE: But to kill the little boy, Randy Zelin? That`s complete BS. This is not some gang revenge on a mother and a little boy. No.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think what we see here is the problem, which is we don`t really know what happened -- the physical evidence, no statements, no weapon, no motive. And that`s part of the problem of pointing a finger too quickly. Balfour`s biggest problem is he was on parole. He loses all of his rights. He`s got no 5th Amendment privilege. He doesn`t cooperate, he gets locked up and they`re going to let him sit. Alex`s point could be very well taken. We just don`t know.

GRACE: OK, yes, his point was it was some kind of a gang revenge, which is complete BS.

Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home. What was Balfour`s picked up for? I mean, he`s on parole, but what was his infraction?

ROESGEN: What they`re saying now, Nancy, is because he was not and is not cooperative with the police, and that`s a violation of his parole in this unrelated crime. And you know, Nancy, I`m not so sure the gang stuff is not a possible motive here, or drugs. Who knows now? Really could be - - who knows? This neighborhood where I am tonight with so many people is normally so iffy, we would not even do a live shot here.

GRACE: Susan, Susan, Susan, if it`s a drug problem and you want to get money for a drug debt, why do you kill everybody? You`re never going to get money that way. That doesn`t even make any sense. Let`s kill a little 7-year-old boy? Uh-uh!

ROESGEN: Maybe they didn`t want money, Nancy. Maybe it was to send a signal. I don`t know.

GRACE: OK, well, you know, that`s a great theory maybe in a novel or in a movie. But with all of the drug trafficking cases I`ve ever handled, I have never seen this type of revenge. I think that motivation is going to be a lot closer to home.

Everyone, when we come back, Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist and dear friend of Jennifer Hudson, joins us exclusively.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragedy. It`s a tragedy. Its should have never happened. Should have never happened. And to a kid 7 years old? No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over the weekend, Hudson offered a $100,000 reward for 7-year-old Julian King`s safe return. But today, Chicago police found a body in the back of this stolen SUV and confirmed it was Hudson`s nephew. It is a terrible blow for the big city star with home town roots, the dream girl who could not have dreamed of such personal tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, two very dear friends of the "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson, Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist, and friend and neighbor of the Hudson family Stephanie Patton (ph). To Diana DeGarmo. Thank you for being with us. I understand that Jennifer Hudson was extremely close to her mother.

DIANA DEGARMO, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: Very much so. Very much so. And I can only imagine what she`s going through. Actually, the last time I saw Jennifer, her brother was with her. And every time, you know, we were on the show, Jennifer always talked about her mom because I was there with my mother and she always said how much she missed her mom and how much she wanted her to be there. And her mother was a delightful, delightful person, and I can only imagine what she`s going through.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tragically, search efforts ended shortly after 7:00 a.m. this morning. Chicago police responded to a call of a suspicious vehicle parked at 1313 South Colon. The call was received at 7:06 a.m., and called in by a community resident.

The vehicle was parked on the street in front of a residence and matched the vehicle description of the white Suburban, license plate X584859, listed on the AMBER Alert.

At this time, we can confirm that the body located inside the vehicle was the body of 7-year-old Julian King.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The "American Idol" superstar jetting to Chicago to identify bodies left behind, her mother, her brother, her 7-year-old little nephew, all murder victims.

Joining us right now, a very dear friend of Jennifer Hudson from "American Idol," you all remember Diana DeGarmo. Also with us, Stephanie Patton, a neighborhood and friend of the Hudson family.

Ladies, thank you for being with us.

We are taking your calls live. To Stephanie Patton -- Miss Patton, again, thank you for being with you. Were you home.

STEPHANIE PATTON, FRIEND, NEIGHBOR OF JENNIFER HUDSON`S FAMILY: You`re welcome.

GRACE: . at the time of the shooting?

PATTON: Yes, I was.

GRACE: Did you hear or see anything?

PATTON: I didn`t hear anything. I didn`t hear anything. The kids were out of school that Friday. It was quiet morning. You know, I left about 10:00, and I didn`t hear anything. I get back about 2:30 and the police were out here.

GRACE: Have you spoken to any of the family members since this happened?

PATTON: No, I haven`t. No.

GRACE: And could you tell me how well you knew the Hudson family?

PATTON: My kids played with Julian, and I knew Jason. I didn`t really know Miss Hudson very well. You know, I just heard of her. You know, and I knew she lived here when Jennifer won the Oscar, you know, that`s when I first found out she lived here.

You know, I`ve lived here for seven years. And, you know, I knew Jason, always giving barbecues, and that`s it.

GRACE: Tell me what the little boy was like.

PATTON: A nice little boy. He reminded me of my little boy. That`s why I really took notice to him, you know. A lot of kids out here play together, you know. But he was a nice little boy, polite. Reminded me a lot of my little boy. Very pleasant to be around.

GRACE: How is the neighborhood reacting to what`s happened?

PATTON: Well, we are devastated. We`re devastated, you know. This could have happened to any one of us, our family, and we`re -- that`s why we`re out here. Many of us have been out here since Friday, nonstop, you know, just to give our support to the Hudson family.

GRACE: Back to Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist, I know that you guys were very, very close during the "American Idol" contest, and you have remained in contact since then.

How did all of the fame and the Oscar change her, if it did?

DIANA DEGARMO, "AMERICAN IDOL" FINALIST, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: It didn`t change her personally. It definitely made her a lot more popular. You couldn`t really exactly go out anywhere without seeing her name somewhere or people recognizing her.

But she was the most wonderful person during the show, after the show, after winning her Oscar, you know, having all this notoriety and all this fame. She was still just wonderful to be around and it was great to, you know, think that I was just one of her friends from "Idol" and she was still friends with me, too.

GRACE: So she remained true to you as a friend after all this time.

DEGARMO: Definitely. And I know how close she was to her mother. I mean she talked about her mother very often, even when we were on the show and tour, she always talked about her and -- because I had just my mother and she was -- said that it kind of reminded her of herself with her mother.

And I can -- I mean I can only imagine what she`s going through. It`s just utter, utter heart break.

GRACE: And didn`t she just become engaged?

DEGARMO: She did. And, you know, she`s having so many wonderful things -- you know, coming to her with a brand-new CD that`s number one, a new movie out, all this, you know, wonderful things, getting engaged and planning a wedding and to have such a huge catastrophe happen.

I mean she basically lost almost her entire family in one day.

GRACE: How -- who`s left in her family?

DEGARMO: I mean, she has a few other siblings, but her mother and her brother, Jason, and her nephew, and that really close family, that was it. And you know, her father was not a part of her life very much, and I just - - I know just from how she was on the show, that I can only, only imagine. It`s just -- it`s really terrible.

GRACE: Thank you to Stephanie Patton and Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist and friend of Jennifer Hudson.

Everyone, right now, we`re switching gears quickly. We are still taking your calls live, but I want to give you the latest in the search for Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New developments today in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars awaiting trial, a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and many other charges related to Caylee`s disappearance.

Anthony has pled not guilty and could be facing the electric chair or lethal injection.

Also today, Texas Equusearch being preparations to return to Orlando where they will be joined by Leonard Padilla and others helping to find the remains of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New developments today in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars awaiting trial, a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and many other charges related to Caylee`s disappearance.

Anthony has pled not guilty and could be facing the electric chair or lethal injection.

Also today, Texas Equusearch being preparations to return to Orlando where they will be joined by Leonard Padilla and others helping to find the remains of little Caylee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, joining us from WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark Williams, a lot is happening in the case right now. Number one, stunning FBI lab results are back. We know what they say. Number two, the search for Caylee is gearing up. And number three, still, no visits whatsoever to the jailhouse from tot mom`s family.

Number one, the FBI results, give it to me in a nutshell.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, first off, Casey Anthony tomorrow is going to proclaim her innocence in court. Judge Stan Strickland expected to accept her not guilty plea in the first-degree murder indictment handed up.

Also, this is -- this is all against the odds that have shown up, Nancy. For example, the facts that -- that they found the hair samples in the car, they -- match a little -- they match Caylee or Casey. It`s not really conclusive, but that hair has the death band on it.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait just a minute. Don`t start up with me. You`re tuning up. First thing about it`s not conclusive.

First, to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist.

Dr. Arnall, let`s just break it down. The hair matches either Casey Anthony, the tot mom, or Caylee, the little girl. It`s got a death band on it. What does that say to you?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It says that the person who is, obviously, deceased is decomposed. It could be Caylee. It could be Casey. But, of course, Casey is not decomposed.

GRACE: So, bottom line? Break it down, so Mark Williams will get it.

ARNALL: Well, you know, the mitochondrial DNA is not as specific as nuclear DNA.

GRACE: Oh, come on, Dr. Arnall. The U.S. government has been using it for decades to identify fallen soldiers overseas. Come on.

ARNALL: Right. And what happens is the same thing is going to happen in this case. They`re going to combine the circumstances of the case.

The probability that a person with that mitochondrial DNA was somehow mysteriously found in the -- the trunk of Casey Anthony is going to suggest that it is probably only one person, and that only one person is Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: With me right now, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, joining us out of John J. College of Criminal Justice. And he is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

OK, give me your best shot, Kobe.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, quite simply, as you just heard, mitochondrial DNA profile is not unique. In fact, not only does Caylee and Casey share the same profile, but so does Cindy and so does Lee, the brother.

GRACE: Yes, they`re all alive. They`re all alive, Kobe.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, they`re all alive. And.

GRACE: So what`s your point?

KOBILINSKY: The point is, is that it`s very important that when we talk about this hair, and we say that it`s Casey or Caylee, that is just not the case.

GRACE: OK. You know what?

KOBILINSKY: That`s not scientific.

GRACE: You know what, Kobe? I`ll give you your point. So the hair could be Lee Anthony, Casey Anthony, Cindy Anthony, or Caylee Anthony. Only one person out of that bunch, we don`t know if she is dead or alive. That would be the 3-year-old.

KOBILINSKY: Right. How about the.

GRACE: Do you agree with that?

KOBILINSKY: How about the other people, Nancy, that are unrelated that still have the same mitochondrial DNA profile? Can we rule that out?

GRACE: Such as who? Such as who?

KOBILINSKY: Well, there are people in the population who share.

GRACE: Who?

KOBILINSKY: . that identical profile. Such as who, I don`t know the names, but the statistics prove that there are others that share that same profile.

GRACE: Really? About how many others, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: I think the -- the statistics are in the report. I don`t have it in front of me. But about.

GRACE: How convenient.

KOBILINSKY: Well, it`s the facts. It`s not a matter of convenience.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that.

ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . if we find that out that people are going to look at you a wrong way?

ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission.

ANTHONY: She`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . and hasn`t returned her?

ANTHONY: . the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sources say someone at the Anthony home looked up chloroform on the Web around the time of Caylee`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A parent, usually a mom, will put a kid to sleep by covering over the nose and mouth or something and cause her to lose consciousness.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bond(ph) says the practice is more common among young moms who don`t want to be bothered by a crying baby. Bond says it`s a dangerous practice, because you don`t know how much the child is inhaling. It can shut down the respiratory system, the brain and then the heart.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Stunning FBI lab results are in. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court tomorrow morning. We believe she will enter a not guilty plea, and the search for little Caylee gears up.

Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, you are taking part in the search, joining forces with Texas Equusearch, and you`re rounding up bounty hunters from all over the country to help search.

Where are you going to start?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ASSISTING IN EQUUSEARCH EFFORTS FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re going to start with meeting with Tim on the 7th so that we have everything organized. We`ve got -- according to what Tim told me this past Saturday, we`ve got over 7,000 people, closer to 8,000 that have actually called his headquarters.

And I get 50 to 100 calls a day from people that are wanting to join. And he also said that we`re close to the -- I shouldn`t say "we." It`s his program -- close to the $50,000 mark.

We hope that we will be geared up with at least 8,000 people to search starting the morning of the 8th.

GRACE: You know, when you got in the bounty hunting business, I`m sure you never believed that you would be tromping through the -- Florida woods looking for a little 3-year-old girl.

Tell me why you are so convinced she will be found there.

PADILLA: Well, I was just talking to my nephew, Tony, here. And I said, you know, Tony, the last thing I -- the last words I had with Casey when I walked out of the house when she told me to leave was I turned to her and I told her, I said, I`m going to find Caylee, with or without your help.

We`re going to find the little girl there because she`s never -- Casey was never off that phone. And as long as she had that phone in her hand, she was using it. And we have the cell towers pretty well plotted out on a map.

We know where she was on certain days. And we know that the child was in the trunk of the car on the 18th. We know her dad believes -- George believes that the child was in the trunk on the 24th. And she parked the car by dumpsters to either mask the smell or put the child in the dumpster.

So we`re going to start looking for the -- the signals that were sent to the towers between the 26th and the 30th -- actually, the 26th and the 27th. The 27th is the most important, because on that day, she walked from her boyfriend Tony`s house, got in the car, drove to her mom`s house, called JCPenney, and then she spent 18 minutes in an area there that`s not that large.

That`s where we`re going to start on -- on the 8th.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150, where the pings are that Padilla is talking about, does that coincide with those three sightings of her? Those alleged three sightings? The two men until vehicle together, and then the one woman?

WILLIAMS: Right in that area, Nancy. She made more than 70 calls, according to Tony Pipitone with Channel 6 News here in town. I mean not only was she a texting queen, but she was on this phone constantly.

And that`s their area of search. It`s a wooded area, it`s flat. You know -- and they had to call off the search, Nancy, originally, a couple of weeks ago, because we had that tropical storm.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: . that flew through here and now, of course, things have drained away and things will be just fine for them.

GRACE: Weigh in, Mike Brooks?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Nancy, I think that cell phone pings, that is crucial to this, just as Leonard was saying. And I think that there -- if you take a look, you look at this right here.

This is, as they said, electronic footsteps, and that`s right on target. I think they will be able to -- to take it to that one area. And with those three -- with those three separate sightings, I think that most likely that`s most likely where you`re going to find little Caylee.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, do you believe there has been a tap on their telephones ever since she got out of jail until she went back in?

BROOKS: You know, as an investigator, I wouldn`t be surprised. I mean you never know who she`s going to call. She`s been sitting in that house. Before she went back to jail, she was sitting in that house, she was over at her attorneys.

I would -- either a tap or at least a pen register that registers that all of the numbers of the incoming and outgoing calls.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president of Klaas Kids Foundation -- Marc, is there any chance that she is still alive?

MARC KLAAS, CHILD ADVOCATE, PRESIDENT, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION PRES., KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: No, there`s no chance that she is still alive. But I have real concerns about this upcoming search.

If you`re going to have 8,000 people that are untrained trampling over an area where you`re really not sure if you`re going to find the body or not, several things are going to happen.

First of all, you could easily trample and destroy evidence. Secondly, if you don`t find her, and you suggest that she is there, and you don`t find her, you`re giving the defense a great argument in favor of the fact that she might still be alive.

So I think that this whole thing sounds really half-baked to me.

GRACE: But, you know, that`s the only way, Marc Klaas. It`s the only search.

KLAAS: No, it`s not the only way.

GRACE: Who else is searching? Nobody else is even searching.

KLAAS: You know what, it`s a really big world, Nancy, and she`s a very tiny little girl. And until you have some compelling reason to be in an area, you shouldn`t be in that area.

And if you are, you don`t take 8,000 untrained people and have them just nilly-willy going through that area. This is something that has to be done in a very -- in a very organized way and a very professional way, so that you don`t trample evidence, so that you`re able to maintain it, and so that you can then either recover the little girl, or find something that can be used against Casey in a court of law. Not something that`s going to provide her with an excuse.

GRACE: I want to go to Drew Petrimoulx, with WDBO Radio.

Drew, are the volunteers being given guidance by police or by professional searchers?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, what they have done is they`re actually asking to enlist ex-firemen, ex-military personnel, ex- police, and like Leonard said, he`s bringing down a bunch of bounty hunters.

And what they`re going to do is meet with Texas Equusearch and be team leaders and provide some kind of training to them, that way they can go out in teams and kind of supervise these people so it`s not just, you know, random people stumbling around in the woods, that could.

GRACE: Exactly.

PETRIMOULX: . in fact, you know, destroy some evidence.

GRACE: Exactly. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Randy Zelin, Alex Sanchez.

Randy Zelin, even if a volunteer finds evidence that would come into court, there`s no statute that says a cop has got to find the evidence.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: 100 percent, but I think Marc`s point is a great one -- when you talk about evidence, and you know this as well as anyone, Nancy -- chain of custody, reliability, laying a foundation.

You have people trampling all over the place, they could be screwing up evidence. You`ve got to lay proper foundations, chains of custody.

GRACE: OK.

ZELIN: People all over the place? I think it`s a horrible idea.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Marc`s point is -- it`s very significant. If they do not find evidence of the child there, the defense is going to make a lot of hay out of that when it comes to the trial. And that could damage the prosecution.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Jill in Maryland, hi, Jill.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for all you do.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we have any idea if the car that was seen by the woman and the car that was seen by the man with the girl coming out with the straw hat were seen on the same road in the same place on the same day?

GRACE: To Mark Williams, I believe they were generally the same description of the vehicles. What about the dates?

WILLIAMS: Well, the dates were right in there someplace. There was a gentleman from an auto auction that saw this woman coming out of the woods with a shovel, a floppy hat and glasses.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And, you know, that was the same sighting for -- that was seen in that area. You know, we got the sample of the -- some of the hair samples back from the shovel, and they don`t match Casey`s. So who knows?

GRACE: What I`m asking you was about.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: . the dates of the sightings?

What about it, Drew Petrimoulx, quickly? Are they the same dates?

PETRIMOULX: Not the same dates, they are.

GRACE: OK, got it. All I just needed was a yes or no.

But, Leonard Padilla, that doesn`t mean that they`re not both true. We saw Scott Peterson go back and back and back to the scene of the crime.

PADILLA: I`m more interested in the two cans of deodorant that were found wrapped up in a cold shopping bag inside of a Target bag. And.

GRACE: Why, may I ask, are you more interested in two cans of deodorant?

PADILLA: Because there -- to deodorize the trunk in the car.

GRACE: Excellent point, excellent point.

PADILLA: And they were found basically where she would have been commuting to and from her home and Tony`s house.

GRACE: Everybody, tomorrow morning, the tot mom is in court, we believe, for a not guilty plea. We`ll be taking your calls live tomorrow night on that topic.

So let`s stop now and remember Army Specialist David McCormick, 26, Bay City, Texas. A second tour. Remembered as a proud Texan. Trained Iraqi soldiers as peacemakers and taught friends overseas about beef jerky.

Planned to pursue a Masters degree in business administration. Dreamed of joining the Coast Guard. Leaves behind mother Anna, brother Will, also in the army, and two sisters.

David McCormick, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/27/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE
Aired October 30, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET
Defense attorney Jose Baez questioned five witnesses today including Tony Lazzaro who is Casey`s ex- boyfriend.
<snip>
GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 19 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. In the last hours, the defense commences questioning state`s witnesses all under oath, and it all centers on the tot mom`s car. This after the FBI confirms death, human decomposition and extremely high levels of chloroform in tot mom`s car. Investigators narrow down the timeline after grainy surveillance video shows tot mom at Blockbuster renting a murder movie and one about a child abandoned by its mother, and on the day Caylee last seen.

This as mom Casey orders personal grooming and beauty items from her private jail cell -- skin care, hair products, stamps, lingerie. Nice! But she does nothing from her cell to help in the search for Caylee, spending her days reading, napping, lounging, watching TV. Some life. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. The timeline of what happened to Caylee Anthony may be narrowing, thanks to new surveillance images surfacing from a local Blockbuster video, Anthony appearing lovey-dovey with boyfriend Tony Lazzaro (ph) just hours after Caylee was last seen, little Caylee nowhere in the video. Anthony`s defense attorney, Jose Baez, scheduled to depose witnesses for the first time today, witnesses including Casey`s boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, who told police that after the time Caylee went missing, Casey Anthony would wake up in cold sweats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why, and she said that she would have -- she was having a nightmare or something.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause injury to your daughter, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better life?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You mean as the questions are about the chain of custody of the car?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to make any comments about strategy or anything like that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The defense won`t say, but it`s most likely questioning Lazzaro and the others, three employees of Johnson`s Record Service including Simon Birch who was there when Caylee`s grandfather opened the trunk to show that the evidence in the car could have been tainted because it wasn`t secure.

Simon Birch told investigators the smell caused him to fear Caylee`s body was in the trunk in the trash bag that was in there.

The defense also questioned Katherine Sanchez from Amscot where Casey`s car sat for days in the parking lot, again, possibly to show no one was watching the car 24/7.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you freaked out about all of this to think that she might have been with you just hours after this happened?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He didn`t answer us to today, but he has said exactly that. Channel 9 was first to show you these color surveillance photos on of Casey Anthony and boyfriend Tony Lazzaro at Blockbuster renting movies just hours after investigator say Casey could have murdered her daughter Caylee.

Lazzaro has told investigators that Casey would not let him near her car when he picked her up at Amscot after she told him she ran out of gas. He offered to help with the car but she told him her father was going to take care of it.

We know now that the car smelled of death and she had tried to keep her father away from the car as well before she had abandoned it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. I understand the defense has begun questioning, commenced questioning of state witnesses. Explain.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Defense attorney Jose Baez questioned five witnesses today including Tony Lazzaro who is Casey`s ex- boyfriend. You`ll remember that we, in the last couple of days, have seen photos from a Blockbuster of them renting horror moves on the day when investigators believe that Casey actually skilled her daughter Caylee.

Also that got questioned today were the manager of the Amscot where Casey dropped off her car and three workers at the tow truck company that towed that car.

Now one of those workers actually accompanied George Anthony when they walked out to the car and he said that the car smelled like another car that he had towed and in that car somebody had committed suicide.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, who is helping the search for little Caylee, what do you make of these witnesses?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, I can only tell the truth and the truth is exactly what they`ve already got in their police reports.

The testimony under oath that, I think, is being taken right now is duplication and I`m sure that Jose would like to try to punch holes in their story, but their stories are very simple, very factual and very truthful. There is nothing he`s going to be able to do to sway them from telling the truth.

GRACE: But on Tony Lazzaro, the other witnesses, Leonard Padilla, are all about the car. Lazzaro has a lot to talk about. That`s her boyfriend, her lover.

PADILLA: Sure. And he`s going talk about exactly what Petrimoulx just said regarding her not wanting him around the car, him going and her demeanor in the movie rental store and also the fact that, yes, he loaned her his jeep while he was gone to New York for almost a week and what she did during that period of time and the fact that on one occasion -- I think it was on the 5th of July -- she took it to a car wash and washed it.

There`s a lot of details that not only he, but Jesse and Chris and other individuals that were involved with her, are going brick into play especially if Jose continues to ask them questions under oath.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Richard Herman.

Peter Odom, we`re not at trial, so explain to those that are unfamiliar with it how the defense is getting to question state`s witnesses right now under oath.

ODOM: Nancy, there are just a couple of states who allow these pretrial on-the-record interviews. Florida happens to be one of them. This is a trial preparation technique that the defense is allowed to use in Florida.

Witnesses are brought in. They`re put under oath. Everything they say is taken down. There`s no judge present so the rules of evidence don`t apply. All that has to be shown is that the questions are designed to lead to admissible evidence and the defense in this case is going right after the most damning evidence against Casey.

GRACE: To Richard Herman, it`s a bug plus for the defense. This is a preemptive attack on the state`s witnesses.

HERMAN: What a great opportunity. We don`t have this in New York.

GRACE: Yes.

HERMAN: What an opportunity to tie down, lock in the testimony and then be able to use it for impeachment purposes at trial.

GRACE: You`re not kidding.

We`re taking your calls live, to Mary in Georgia. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Hi, dear. I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I live in Macon.

GRACE: Oh, hello to all my friends in Macon, my hometown. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I wanted to know (INAUDIBLE) inside and why Lee Anthony has dropped out of the picture?

GRACE: Interesting.

Leonard Padilla, we haven`t heard much out of him at all recently. Why?

PADILLA: Well, I think since the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office took his DNA, he has kept such a low profile that everybody is concerned as to what he`s doing and a lot of it has to do with him being upset at Equusearch right now because they`re looking for the child.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: . as if the child is dead and he`s not.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, I understand the tot mom, Casey Anthony, made quite a list of requests. You know what? She might as well be shacked up at the Hilton for all of the beauty and hygiene aids she purchased.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. She ordered them yesterday, she`ll get them tomorrow, about $70 worth of products, a lot of beauty products, as you said -- lotions, hairstyling products like volumizing shampoo and conditioner, some Chapstick, and some clothing also, some envelopes and some letter-writing paper. But they were mostly predominantly beauty products on that list.

GRACE: You know, what about it, Bethany Marshall?

MARSHALL: Well, I don`t think it`s unusual when somebody is cut off from everyone they`re attached to to invest all their energy back in themselves. Like when a couple divorces, usually they go -- they exercise, they lose weight, they get their nails done. All the libido is invested back into the self.

She has no one to talk to. She`s there all by herself. All of her attention is going to go on to herself and probably for the first time she`s listening to her defense attorney. She`s not spending time via video conference talking to her family.

She had that ah-ha moment when the indictment was handed down and she knows on some level that she`s been had. And so she`s just there by herself in jail focusing on herself.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks -- Mike, I still say that there`s a chance they may make a recovery, that they may very well find something when the search commences.

BROOKS: I really do. And, you know, from what we heard from Leonard Padilla and also from Tim Miller, I think that that is a definite possibility, especially with all the volunteers you`re going to have down there. I just hope the weather holds up.

And, Nancy, you know, one thing that just makes me sick, thinking about them in that video store on the same day where Caylee could have been in the trunk of her car, either dying or already dead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Quickly, out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, joining us out of John J. College of Criminal Justice, a pay consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Kobe, why do you insist that the evidence is weak in this case with that hair?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well -- but there are -- I mean there are a number of items of physical evidence in this case. Physical evidence is really the heart of the state`s case. And some of it is soft. Just plain soft. And I think there are questions.

GRACE: So you don`t believe in cadaver dogs?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I do up to a point. I.

GRACE: Oh really, what point is that?

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I.

GRACE: When you get paid in a case, is that when you quit believing in them?

KOBILINSKY: Not at all. I think these dogs alert and that`s a presumptive positive. That means that there could be something to investigate further. It doesn`t mean that there`s human decomposition.

GRACE: OK. Put Kobe back on the screen, please.

So you`ve got two separately -- dogs that hit separately, two cadaver dogs, highly trained. You have air samples from the Body Farm saying there`s a dead body, human body in that trunk.

KOBILINSKY: No, that`s not correct.

GRACE: OK. Explain to me.

KOBILINSKY: That`s not correct. If you read the report, the conclusion is that there could be human decomposition and there could be animal decomposition. The report is weak.

GRACE: You know what? You are right. You are right about that. But how do you explain that the cadaver dogs only hits on human remains and there is a.

KOBILINSKY: No, that`s.

GRACE: No, No.

KOBILINSKY: I`m not convinced.

GRACE: Well, you`re not convinced but that`s not what statistics say. And what about the hair with a death band on it?

KOBILINSKY: Well, again, there`s mitochondrial DNA involved in that particular hair. And that is not a unique profile. I`ve heard people say it`s either Caylee or Casey. That is incorrect.

GRACE: But we know that Casey -- you know what? I`ll save my argument for another day because right now I want to remember Army Staff Sergeant Clay Craig, 22, Mesquite, Texas killed Iraq, on a third tour.

Proud to serve his country. Loved family, making others smile, taking nieces to the movies, dreamed of a military career, college and teaching history. Leaves behind parents Debbie and Roger, seven siblings, including sisters Nita and Michelle, widow Cynthia, baby girl Isabelle.

Clay Craig, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/30/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Attorney Being Investigated for Hugging his Client

Aired October 31, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee not seen for 19 long weeks. Mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars, not a single visit from family, only jailhouse meetings with her attorney.
And now we learn defense attorney Jose Baez gets a little too close for comfort, Baez caught hugging Casey Anthony behind jailhouse walls in direct violation of strict security rules. Now, reports are that the Florida bar is even launching an investigation.

Grandparents George and Cindy speak out for the first time since the release of bombshell forensic evidence, the Anthonys still insisting little Caylee is alive and say mom Casey will go to prison for life to protect her little girl. Five thousand tips pour in, as mom Casey caught on surveillance video renting a murder movie on the day Caylee was last seen. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news, George and Cindy Anthony speaking out for the first time since forensic tests from the FBI show evidence of decomposition and chloroform were present in Casey Anthony`s car.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: George and I don`t believe that Caylee is in the woods, or you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive. Exact spot? We`re getting close. The actual why? We pretty much -- you know, we feel we`re on the right track. We believe and we`ve believed from day one that Caylee has not stayed in the same place for very long. We believe that she`s been moved numerous times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony behind bars facing murder charges, but that hasn`t stopped her defense attorney, Jose Baez, from hugging her not once, but twice, inmate contact strictly against security policy, Baez eventually telling officials he didn`t intend to break the rules and would make an effort to remember.

LALAMA: And tonight, "American Idol"superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson devastated by violent crime. Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home, her 7-year-old nephew kidnapped from the scene, then confirmed dead from multiple gunshot wounds.

Just moments ago, police announced they have the murder weapon. Forensics confirm a .45-caliber handgun recovered in a vacant lot is the same used in the Hudson family murders. Jennifer Hudson under tight security. A private funeral set for Monday. Tonight, an "American Idol" tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chicago police have identified the weapon that killed Hudson`s brother, mother and her nephew. Today they confirmed that the gun they found Wednesday is the same weapon used in all of the murders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The weapon itself is a .45-caliber semi-automatic handgun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are still trying to figure out whether the gun could be linked to the person of interest. That person is William Balfour, the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, Julia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a person of interesting, but that`s not to say that there`s not other individuals that may turn up.

MICHELE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF PERSON OF INTEREST: If Julia felt that William was a threat, don`t you think she would have put a restraining order on him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What if it`s the wrong guy. Balfour`s been locked up in custody for six days now. They haven`t found anything? They`re probably water boarding him in there, and yet they haven`t found anything on him.

BALFOUR: So it`s always two sides of the story. You all are painting him, portraying my son as being the worst scum of the earth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Anthony.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news, Casey Anthony`s defense attorney, Jose Baez, has been reprimanded not once but at least twice for hugging his client during jailhouse visits, touching a client strictly prohibited for fears contrabands could be passed, Baez originally upset and told jail officials he hugs all his clients.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey spent several hours a day in her attorney`s office while on home confinement. Many speculated why the mother of missing Caylee was spending so much time there.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I would implore you as responsible journalists to question what`s going on here. You can all understand why she`s spending so much time in my office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The jail says Casey Anthony has every right to work on her case with her attorney and her house arrest cannot interfere with that. But six hours every day for a child neglect case?

BAEZ: And I don`t care what rumor and what speculation is out there. Casey trusts me and trusts that I will do my job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, did you kill Caylee?

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Get away! Get away!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not intimidated, not in any way, shape or form.

BAEZ: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. I would again ask you and employ (ph) all of you to try and understand what Casey is going through and to understand that we have been preparing from day one for the very worst.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Well, it`s the case of the hugging attorney. Here we go. Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150, is it true that the state is investigating this?

MARK WILLIAM, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, this is not a trick-or-treat deal whatsoever. There`s a woman in Indiana who saw the story on a Web site of a local TV station. She contacted the Florida Bar Association, the association now looking into the case of the attorney hugging his client.

Attorney Jose Baez says he hugs all of his clients. However, he was caught twice at the Orange County jail hugging Casey Anthony. The last time that we know of was on Monday night. He stopped in for a visit, they were hugging, and that, of course, is against jail policy whatsoever. They`re afraid they`re going to pass contraband between one another. So that`s -- that`s where that is right now.

LALAMA: Wow. Well, there`s all kinds of, you know, crazy, tacky things that people are implying as a result of this. Let`s go to our attorneys, and let`s just see how cozy they do get. Anne Bremner, defense attorney, is it OK to hug your client?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I was just thinking, Pat, have you hugged your lawyer today?

(LAUGHTER)

LALAMA: Well, I live with one, so I`m allowed to.

BREMNER: There you go. We all need a hug sometimes, I`ll tell you. But you know, the fact is, it`s OK. And I went to the Gerry Spence school. He`s one of the best lawyers in the nation, and he says you`ve got to love your client first, and if you don`t, get out. And so you`ve got that affection with your client. You got to really stand behind them. In the jail, a little bit different. But they search -- you know, he`s got -- is he passing contraband? No. This seems to be something that`s really blown way out of proportion in terms of what happened. It was well-intentioned.

LALAMA: You can say what you want about Mr. Baez, but he doesn`t appear to be carrying a file in his back pocket.

BREMNER: Exactly.

LALAMA: I don`t get that feeling. Let`s go right to our callers on this Halloween night. Lisa from Florida. Hello, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you doing?

LALAMA: I`m well. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a comment. I wanted to know -- have they ever -- or a question, actually. Have they ever found the carseat that the baby was photographed in the picture with?

LALAMA: The carseat? OK, Nikki Pierce, reporter with WDBO radio. What do you know about the baby`s carseat?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Actually, I believe that it was found in the car when the car was recovered. That was one of the things that made investigators question what the deal was and where Caylee was, because her carseat was there, as well as her doll and a couple of other things that she generally wouldn`t be without.

LALAMA: And of course, our good friend, Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, now consultant to the Casey Anthony case. That carseat obviously would have been something that would have been thoroughly investigated.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, there`s no doubt about it, Pat. Anything in that vehicle would have been looked at very carefully, would have been sent to the laboratory, DNA testing, trace evidence testing. Everything would have been reviewed. We haven`t heard anything about it yet, but you know, I think this is potentially, at least according to the state, a crime scene. So there`s no doubt no stone would have been left unturned.

LALAMA: Let`s get back to the hugging incident, since that seems to be the big event of the day. There are some other issues to talk about. He`s seen his client -- Mr. Baez -- seen his client 7 out of 14 days. You know, let me ask Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former FBI agent, is that so odd? I mean, I know lawyers, if they`re interested in -- in the concern for their client, they`re there and they`re there around the clock.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think this case is consuming Jose Baez. And I think that when she was out on home detention, the only place she could go was to be with counsel, and she spent an inordinate amount of time there. That was the only time that she could get away. I don`t think there`s anything to that. I don`t think there`s anything to the hugging. People are distraught. It`s an emotionally-based case. He comes in, he sees his client, he hugs her, he sits down and he interviews her. There`s nothing wrong with that at all.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, you know, it seems to me he would have been smart to come out and say, Look, my client is in distress, and I`m the only one there for her. He sounded a little bit almost too defensive. Methinks thou dost protest too much, instead of coming out and using it as a positive. Am I just reading way too much into this?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s hard to tell with somebody like Casey Anthony, who is a chameleon. She plays roles, and here she may be playing the damsel in distress...

LALAMA: Right.

SAUNDERS: ... to his Lancelot, and he`s going to rescue her. But it is kind of strange that he said, reportedly at one point that he didn`t know the rule in the jail. I wouldn`t want a defense attorney who doesn`t know basic rules in jails. It`s a little suspicious.

LALAMA: Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and helping to search for Caylee Anthony, did you sit close to her?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: ... say something on behalf of Jose. While we were back there for those 10 days, I can tell you this. She went to the office simply to get away from her mother and her dad. I`m telling you. That`s the fact. Jose`s family is just a great family. I may have disagreements with Jose on other things. That was just bad judgment on his part.

And the reason that security prevents contact visits by attorneys is because, look back in the history of the California prison breaks, back in the `60s and `70s. They were always things that were conducted by an attorney, bringing in a handcuff key or gun to a prisoner. And it doesn`t matter how innocent that prisoner looks, the security in those jails has to be firm and it applies to everybody.

As far as what`s going on there, it was just bad judgment on his part on this particular issue. He made a mistake. And you know, it`s just a mistake that he made, you know? He knows what the rules are.

LALAMA: And you know, and just very quickly -- I`ve just got a few seconds -- she does probably -- not encouraging physical contact, but encouraging the "Come to me and help me" sort of routine, which a lot of people could easily fall into. Yes or no, Leonard?

PADILLA: Yes, absolutely. I`ve said this before. The night that she bailed out of jail, she actually fixed dinner for my nephew.

LALAMA: Right, right.

PADILLA: Instead of sitting there and saying, OK, let`s get a plan together, let`s go look for Caylee, she fixed dinner for him.

LALAMA: Right. Yes. I think that`s part of her MO.

All right, as we go to break, new photos of Nancy`s twins. Here are little Lucy, of course, and John David in their pre-Halloween party T- shirts and boo (ph) socks. And here they are in their adorable costumes. Wow! Lucy is a flower and John David is a pirate, and mommy -- we know this is true -- is a tiger. We`ll also post these on the show`s Web site at CNN.com/nancygrace. Good for you, Nancy. Have a great night with the kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Casey Anthony was released from jail back in September, her attorney, Jose Baez, kept her close to him and away from the media. Now that Anthony is back in jail, Baez has been reprimanded by jail officials for hugging his client on two occasions. The first incident happened two weeks ago. A corrections officer saw Baez hug Anthony, and Baez was advised that physical contact with inmates is prohibited. Then a week later, on October 21, another report said Baez was again observed hugging his client.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. You know, it was just in the last 24 hours that Cindy and George Anthony did a media interview, I believe with a local media. They had some interesting things to stay. Of course, they are standing by their daughter, saying that they truly believe that Caylee is alive and floating from location to location someplace around the globe.

All right. I want to go to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey, Police Department, former member of the FBI joint terrorism task force. You know, I mean, these are grandparents. They want to believe in their daughter. But what do you think of the position they`re taking?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPARTMENT: This is a law enforcement officer`s nightmare. The position they`re taking is what grandparents would probably take, either hoping that the child is still alive or knowing something and trying to cover it up. It`s just a bizarre case, and this is a tough nut to crack for law enforcement.

LALAMA: Absolutely. Why don`t we go to one of the pieces of sound from George and Cindy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: George and I don`t believe that Caylee`s in the woods, or you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive. Exact spot? We`re getting close. The actual why? We pretty much -- you know, we feel we`re on the right track. We believe and we`ve believed from day one that Caylee has not stayed in the same place for very long. We believe that she`s been moved numerous times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy and George wholeheartedly believe their granddaughter is still alive and their daughter is innocent.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There`s a lot more to this story than you guys could ever, ever imagine, and it`s all going to come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: There`s a lot more to the story. Anne Bremner, you know, if you know a lot and you could help the case, why not `fess up and tell us what you know?

BREMNER: Well, sure. But I guess they`re trying to say, it`s like the kind of thing where you try the case, you`ve got the jury in the box, and you say, You know what? Caylee Anthony is going to come in right behind that door right now, and all the jurors look. That`s reasonable doubt. You know, the fact is, she could be alive. And I guess they`re trying to put that specter out there.

LALAMA: That sounds like a movie to me.

BREMNER: That was a movie.

LALAMA: Yes, I think it was, too. Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, again, you know, the family is saying that the reason -- she puts it this way. She would go to her grave, she`ll spend the rest of her life in prison because she`s not going to tell what`s going on because it could hurt her child. Could you explain the logic to me?

ROGERS: Well, there is no logic. And I`ve got to tell you, just seeing what I just saw really causes me to believe that there is something they`re not telling us. And you answered -- you asked the right question. If you`ve got all this information, give it to the police and let`s be done with it.

LALAMA: Yes. I mean, to me, I don`t know, I`m just wondering, Hugo Rodriguez, would you just tell the parents please just don`t say anything?

RODRIGUEZ: I would keep everyone quiet, from my client -- as her counsel, I would keep quiet. There`s no reason, there`s no benefit to have any press releases, to say anything. They`re not helping her at all.

LALAMA: Leonard Padilla, could it be a strategy that if they could just convince one potential member of the jury, because they`re these caring -- I`m not saying they aren`t caring, by the way. Let`s just make that sure -- certain. But you know, this could be some sort of a PR strategy.

PADILLA: It`s Cindy Anthony`s way of getting through life. If she is telling the truth, then Special Agent Nick Savage (ph) and the whole FBI, the government is wasting a lot of money on them. I`m old-fashioned. The FBI is not lying. Cindy Anthony is flat-out lying. She knows she`s lying and has got no strategy about the jury or anything like that. She will just lie to convince people that she is right and everybody else is wrong, including the whole FBI structure.

LALAMA: Let`s hear what`s on the minds of our callers. Maureen in Pennsylvania. Hello, Maureen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

LALAMA: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Does anyone know where Casey`s brother was the day she was seen coming out of the woods with the bag with the shovel in it? Could he have been her look-out?

LALAMA: Nikki Pierce, what do you know about that?

PIERCE: We don`t have any information on that. As far as I know, none of the members of the family are being investigated as being an active part of whatever may have happened to Caylee.

LALAMA: And Mark Williams, we know her brother is just sort of out of picture. What`s up with him? Lee, I believe his name is.

WILLIAMS: Lee Anthony and Cindy Anthony at one time, right after Caylee went missing, instead of looking for the little girl, they were trying to figure out where they were going to do their PR blitz at, what television network they were going to be at and what television station that they were going to be on. He has kept a very low profile the past six or seven weeks or so. We have not seen him, nor his black Mustang cruising around Orlando at all. So who knows whatever happened to him.

LALAMA: Yes. He`s certainly not making public statements about his sister, at this point.

To tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a missing 14-year-old Illinois girl, Simone Boyd, last seen October 20 in the Romeoville area near Chicago. Police reportedly investigating a connection to an Internet predator -- Boyd, 4-11, 130 pounds, with black hair and brown eyes. If you have any information, please call the Romeoville police, 815-886-7219.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey was indicted on first degree murder charges based largely on forensic evidence recovered from her car.

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no smoking (ph) down here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Air samples and hair samples in the reports that Casey`s lawyer and her parents say are inconclusive at best.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m angry, and for them to pull that and this is all they`ve got? This is ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. You know, there`s been 4,000 tips coming in to try to solve this case. And I want to go to Gale St. John, who`s a psychic and host of "The Bodyhunter." And you have tried to search for Caylee Anthony. You know, a lot of people don`t put a lot of stock in psychics. You would, I`m sure, counter that argument with what?

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: Oh, I`m not out here to -- you know, to make people accept, you know, a psychic. Basically, we`re out here and we did what others have done. We`ve gone out. We`ve searched. We still have searches going on. As a matter of fact, there`s a search going on tomorrow with some of our volunteers. You know, so if people want to join, they can go and join up the search.

LALAMA: What have you been able to glean in your psychic investigation?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, a lot of things that we saw are, you know, things that are common when you get to Florida. So what we`ve done is we`ve taken tips, as well, of our own and others, and we`ve investigated all these tips that have come in because we have our own tip line. And I think just like the police, we have gotten thousands of tips.

LALAMA: Well, I wish you the very best, and the fact that you`re involved is a big thing.

And you know, I have to switch gears really quickly because I`ve just got such little time left in this block. The movies now that we`re finding out that Casey rented with her boyfriend -- "Untraceable," about a serial killer, and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her child. I`ve got to ask, Lieutenant Steven Rogers, as law enforcement person, does that mean anything to you?

ROGERS: Oh, it sure does.

LALAMA: Really?

ROGERS: Oh, yes. Police officers are going to get those movies. They`re going to look at those movies very closely and they might find a potential plot and motive that she may have carried out through those movies.

LALAMA: Wow! Hugo Rodriguez, what do you think about that?

RODRIGUEZ: Hey, I`m going Blockbuster tonight and ordering five romantic movies, and hopefully, some people will insinuate what I do after that.

LALAMA: Oh, Patricia Saunders, give me a psychology to this, if, in fact, she -- well, give me a psychology.

SAUNDERS: Well, if it was before, then there`s some possibility in what these guys are saying. But if it was after the fact, then it does suggest that this is a person who does not experience normal human emotions or attachments because the last thing you want to see after you lose your baby is a story about murder.

LALAMA: Oh, wow. When we come back, tragedy for "American Idol" turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. A big break in the case. Police confirm they do indeed have the murder weapon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Every gun leaves distinctive marks as it goes through the barrel.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chicago police are confirming now that the gun found in that ally near an abandoned white SUV was indeed used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was a .45 caliber handgun that was recovered near the place where the missing car and the boy`s body were found.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chicago authorities are saying Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s nephew was probably shot in the SUV where his body was found. Investigators believe Julian King was alive when he left the house where his uncle and grandmother were shot dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son`s alibi was with one of his girls. If William did do this, right, no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. And that`s a big break in the case.

Let`s go right to Natalie Thomas, deputy news editor, "US Weekly" magazine. Tell us more.

NATALIE THOMAS, DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR, US WEEKLY: We do now, as you saw in the intro, that police did confirm that they found -- they discovered that the murder weapon was used in the case -- I`m sorry. The murder weapon was used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s family, the gun that was found on Wednesday.

LALAMA: Wow, that`s amazing.

Kathy Chaney, reporter for "Chicago Defender," it`s a lucky break, but it doesn`t mean it belongs to the person of interest, does it?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER: Not, exactly. It does not. The police spokeswoman said that it has been confirmed as the gun, the .45 that was used to kill all three. However, they have not, you know, found out who the gun belongs to, or should I say who killed all three family members.

That has not been determined yet.

LALAMA: And my understanding, am I right, Natalie, that it was traced -- the owner was in Michigan. He said it was stolen. Do we know anything more about that?

THOMAS: We do know that -- just as you said, the owner reported it missing. He lives in Michigan. We do not know how it got from Michigan to Chicago.

LALAMA: Yes, such is the way with guns used in the commission of crimes, correct, Detective Rogers?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY N.J. P.D., FMR. MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, yes. They`ll try their best to find out how it got to Chicago. But they`ll try to lift fingerprints, perhaps some DNA. This is a tough one.

LALAMA: Lawrence Kobilinsky, what do they want from that gun and how is it is going to help or hurt the case?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, the gun is the central piece here, linking the three bodies, the two crime scenes, and I think we have to stand by for DNA analysis.

While you can`t get fingerprints off a gun, you usually can get DNA, either a full profile or a partial profile. That`s the evidence that will link the suspect to the crime scenes and the bodies.

Also, back spatter, if it`s present in the muzzle, that will be swabbed and DNA tested, as well. Stand by for those results.

LALAMA: Let`s hear from the callers. Cindy in Pennsylvania, good evening, Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

LALAMA: Hi, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I`ve read in the "Chicago Tribune" where Jennifer Hudson`s brother was living with the mother because he was recovering from a gunshot wound that he received in a (INAUDIBLE).

Do you know if the cops are following any leads on the brother?

LALAMA: Cathy Chaney, who is in Chicago, what do you know about the brother?

CHANEY: The brother, he has had some trouble, some criminal troubles in the past, and right now the police won`t confirm if they`re looking at leads of whether he may have had some type of linkage to this or not. Police will just not confirm that at all.

LALAMA: Anne Bremner, they may know or may have the murder weapon, but that doesn`t mean they got the murder, correct?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely correct. And, you know, when we have a person of interest in this case right now, we don`t have him being called a suspect.

LALAMA: Right.

BREMNER: And interestingly in this case, we hear from Julia, Jennifer`s sister, very little about our person of interest being guilty. And you have to think about, you know, blood is thicker than water. If she thought so, did he kill her mother, her brother and her son, she`d be saying a lot more.

LALAMA: Hugo Rodriguez, you know, he apparently, according to cops, stopped cooperating and refused to take a lie detector test.

Now, in your mind, that`s perfectly OK. But in other people`s minds, it`s like, hey, why not?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: I haven`t -- no one has verified for me that the authorities have asked him to take a polygraph exam. Because to do that would really complicate issues. They -- the police would have to make great concessions to ask somebody to do that. OK?

And I haven`t seen that yet. There is no benefit to it. None at all. He`s been charged or he hasn`t been charged. He is being held on a positive role violation. They have no evidence to link him to this crime.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, I`m really moved by -- I don`t know if moved is the right term, but affected by the violence of this act. The extreme violence. What does it say to you? I mean a gunshot through the door, the guy, whoever it was, is mad before he even got in the door, he or she, whomever.

What does it say to you about the level of violence, taking a 7-year-old child, shooting a 7-year-old child in the head for heaven`s sakes.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, this is a savage kind of violence that speaks to people who may well be sociopathic, real criminals. Could be gang-related, too. Maybe people who used to live with this primitive level of violence and abuse.

LALAMA: Souleo, I hope I am pronouncing that correctly, entertainment journalist, you interviewed Jennifer Hudson just, what, about a month ago?

SOULEO, SISTER 2 SISTER MAGAZINE, INTERVIEWED JENNIFER HUDSON: Yes, yes, it was about a month ago.

LALAMA: You know, she -- I can`t even imagine what sort of hell she must be in right now. Tell us a little bit about her. What kind of perspective you got from spending time with her?

SOULEO: It was amazing to talk with Jennifer, and my condolences go out to the family. She was someone who was very humble, very down to earth. She came across as just very warm, very giving. Magnetic personality, and someone who cares deeply for her family. So we can only imagine the pain she is experiencing now.

LALAMA: Did she talk about her family with you?

SOULEO: Yes. Yes, she did. She spoke lovingly of her mom and of her brother and sister. About her mom, she said that Jennifer loves to draw, that`s one of other private passions, and she said that her mother inspired her to draw, and she said that her mom said, you know, anything that her mom said that she could do, she ended up doing it, from acting and winning the Oscar to all these successes she has now.

So her mother inspired her and was -- and really kept her grounded and gave her the confidence to succeed, as we are witnessing today.

LALAMA: Have you heard anything about what kind of emotional state she may be in?

SOULEO: No. With something like this, we can only imagine the kind of emotional state. Of course, she is traumatized and in shock and in pain. Jennifer loves her family, so, so much. And I -- you know, I just can`t imagine what she must be going through. Yes.

LALAMA: Unbelievable. Another caller, Tiqua in California. Hello, Tiqua.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

LALAMA: I`m well. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I read that Jason, also along with the gunshot wounds, he suffered defensive wounds. And I was wondering if, William, did he have a swollen -- swollen knuckles or, you know, fighting marks on his body?

LALAMA: Natalie Thomas, what do you -- I thought the defensive wound was with Darnell. Am I wrong about that?

THOMAS: No, I believe you`re correct about that.

LALAMA: OK.

THOMAS: I don`t -- I don`t know. To our knowledge, we`re not sure about wounds on William Balfour`s knuckles. We do know that about a month prior he had gotten into an altercation with Jason, and James Patton who is coincidently Jennifer Hudson`s ex broke it up and beat him up.

William Balfour then became enraged, threatening that he would come back Julia Hudson and the rest of the family.

LALAMA: Wow.

Detective Rogers, you know, I don`t want to pour gasoline on the flames of fear here. But whoever this person is or person or people who are responsible, clearly, I mean, if there`s some sort of revenge act or extreme anger act, exacted on an entire family. Should Jennifer Hudson be concerned?

ROGERS: Well, this case would cause me as an investigator to lean away from any gang connection to someone close to the family. That poor 7-year- old boy who was shot and killed.

LALAMA: Yes.

ROGERS: . he may have been able to identify the killer.

LALAMA: Right.

ROGERS: And that`s why he was executed. So, yes, she should be concerned.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, I keep thinking, and I try not to think about, what kind of terror it must have been for that little boy. You know, I don`t know, just try to help us through this.

SAUNDERS: Well, you know, Pat, the mind, the brain has ways of protecting us that only come out in extreme situations. It could be that he witnessed his mother and uncle being murdered and he was so numb and in so traumatized, he was in an altered state and may not have been that aware of the imminent danger that he was -- in.

LALAMA: And it`s very important to talk about the time of death there, Lawrence Kobilinsky, correct? You know, when he died is critical.

KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s true, Pat. The longer the post-mortem interval, the more difficult it gets to pinpoint the time of death. The range is very large. There are methods of, you know, estimating time of death, body temperature, potassium in the eye.

So I`m sure they have some notion of when death took place. But it gets a little complicated sometimes.

LALAMA: Very, very quickly, Detective Rogers, you know, the time of death on that little boy also could point to an assailant or rule out an assailant.

ROGERS: True, it sure could. And like I said, it would cause me to point toward someone close to the family, who he, that young child, could identify.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve still got a lot more to do. There is still a lot more forensic examinations to do. Right now, we`re extraordinarily pleased and satisfied that the weapon has been identified as the weapon that was used in the homicides, and there`s still more work to do, which we are doing at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators are looking for the mechanical equivalent of a fingerprint. It`s marked on a bullet each time a gun is fired. The lines are called striations and they allow forensic experts in a lab to connect a weapon with bullets found in a victim.

A police recruit scouring a field found the gun yesterday. It was less than a block from where 7-year-old Julian King`s body was discovered in a white Chevy Suburban stolen from the Hudson family home.

The weapon itself is a .45 caliber semi automatic handgun. That`s the same caliber used to commit the murders of Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign. It gives us additional clues, and we`re going to keep running them down. Like I mentioned before, I`m extremely confident that this case will be solved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.

Kathy Chaney, where is William Balfour, and what happens next?

CHANEY: Well, William Balfour is still in the custody of the Illinois Department of Corrections, being held on that parole violation, and he has a parole status hearing on November 10th to determine whether or not he did violate his parole or not.

LALAMA: OK. Natalie Thomas from "US Weekly," you know, there is talk that he was stopped in June with crack cocaine in his car, and maybe he didn`t go to anger management. What`s up with this guy?

THOMAS: He definitely has a criminal past. He, you know -- as we know, he spent seven years in prison when he was -- beginning when he was only 17 years old for attempted murder, among a list of other things. So he definitely has a shady past and has violated his parole since he has been out. And is not -- you know, a decent character.

LALAMA: Well, they`ll figure out, I guess, at the hearing whether he has violated his parole for any variety of reasons.

And, you know, Hugo Rodriguez, everyone says, oh, rush to judgment, rush to judgment, you don`t know, there`s all kinds of things going on in that neighborhood, why are you pointing to him.

But it seems to me, and I don`t know, but, I mean, he has had some friction with the family. And right now, who else would have a motive?

RODRIGUEZ: You know, I don`t know who would have a motive. But we had a similar situation here in South Florida, unfortunately, where a famous football player, Sean Taylor, was shot in his home. And it turned out to be that someone not immediately related, but who knew of them, and it was a robbery attempt that no one figured out until several days later.

I don`t know. He is a person of interest. They`ll probably violate him for violating his parole, for whatever those charges are, but until they have some concrete evidence, they`re not about to charge him with the homicides in this case.

LALAMA: Anne Bremner, is being a person of interest in a case enough to get you back in the pokey?

BREMNER: No, absolutely not. They`re just going to hold him on the parole violation. I was thinking, you know, the most famous case of a family murdered together was Truman Capote`s in cold blood.

LALAMA: Right. Right. Right.

BREMNER: You know, and so, of course, you just -- you don`t know. And right now they`re just holding him on parole violations and right now he`s just a person of interest.

LALAMA: Entertainment journalist, Souleo, you know, what -- what should then Jennifer do next? I know she`s staying out of the spotlight. Do you think that`s wise for her?

SOULEO: I think that`s very wise. As an artist, you have to live your life and you have to be true to yourself. And right now, Jennifer, she`s not in a condition to be out there promoting her film or her music and, you know, her fans wouldn`t think that it would be respectful, anyway.

So, of course, she needs to take care of herself, keep herself grounded, remember her mother`s legacy, which was, you know, confidence, support, wisdom. Remember all those great things that her family gave her, and hold on to that, because that is really the only thing that`s going to get her through this terrible, terrible tragedy.

LALAMA: She stayed in constant contact with her family, correct?

SOULEO: Oh, yes, yes, constant contact. And there is actually a funny story. Her mom actually did not want people to know that Jennifer Hudson was her daughter, that they were related, because she liked her privacy.

And she didn`t want people to be too involved, in their family business, and things of that nature. But, yes, she stayed in constant contact with her family, would visit her brother and sister, and when she would go there, you know, they would tell her, oh, my god, Jennifer, what are you wearing, why do you have this on?

So they were just honest and loving with one another. And so that`s her rock. That`s her support system. And now that it`s gone, it`s going to be tough for her.

LALAMA: Here`s something we were debating in the newsroom, everybody. Apparently Julia, who is the mother of Julian, and, of course, you know the rest of the story. On her MySpace page, she still has her ex, William Balfour, as one of her top 10 friends. Forgive me for not understanding how this thing works, MySpace.

But, Patricia Saunders, you know, why would he still be on there? I`m not saying he`s committed the murders, but they`re estranged and having all kinds of problems, her wages have been garnished because of nonpayment on his part. Why would he still be there?

SAUNDERS: Well, because she still loves him. Clearly, there`s a deep attachment between these two, although it may be highly conflictual(ph) and ambivalent, I don`t think we can make presumptions about what their relationship is really like.

She also said on MySpace that she`s numb. So she`s no condition to be processing much kind of thinking at all.

LALAMA: Do you think, perhaps, Souleo, since you know the family, very quickly, you know, she just may in some sort of grief and denial?

SOULEO: I think so. I think grief and denial, just unsure of how the events are going to play out. And you know, the message that she wrote was very respectable. And you get the sense that she is really going through a lot of pain.

LALAMA: Thank you.

Tonight, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I dropped out of high school when I was 15 years old. I had put education on the back burner. I didn`t have to go back and get my GED. But it was something I really needed to complete me as a person.

My manager called a local high school, and they sent us to Bernadine.

And name is Gretchen Wilson and my hero helps people finish their education.

BERNADINE NELSON, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Your scores are incredible.

When I began working in adult ed, I had no earthly idea that there was millions of people without a high school diploma or a GED. But you know, every single person who I helped helps with the big problems.

What are you going to do after you get your GED?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pediatrics nursing.

NELSON: So you`re going to be a great success, aren`t you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

NELSON: We have a GED program for people 17 to 75. We work with the individual wherever they are to take them where they need to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernadine promised me that I`d be able to stand in that line and be proud of myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gretchen Frances Wilson.

NELSON: As long as they`re at sixth grade level, we can make that work.

Education is a passion for me because I know that I`m making a difference in people`s lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s bound and determined to put that sense of pride back into these people. Not only is it respectable, it`s admirable.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com/Heroes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: And now a look back at the stories making the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t care who you are. Just let my baby go. Please. He`s 7. Let my son go. Please. That`s all I ask.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Singer and Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson and her family already mourning the deaths of her mother and brother now have to come to grips with the murder of a child, 7-year-old Julian King has been found in that SUV found dead.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Did your son refuse to take a polygraph, do you know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one knows. I don`t know. You don`t know. No one knows if he refused.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: King`s estranged step-father William Balfour remains a person of interest and in another development has reportedly refused to take a polygraph test and is not cooperating with investigators.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: William was not raised to disrespect no one. You put my son`s face on worldwide news like he`s Attila the Hun.

GRACE: Hey, it`s not our fault he was arrested for attempted murder, having a record dating back to when he was around 12 or 13 years old and allegedly a member of the Gang Disciples.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The mother of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony has been officially arraigned on murder charges.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony had entered a written plea of not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s charged with first-degree murder in her daughter`s disappearance, even though the little girl was never been found.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning new photos released today show tot mom Casey Anthony renting a movie about a kidnapper and killer the same day police believe her daughter, Caylee, was murdered.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. There they are all snugged up at Blockbuster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Brian Bolander, 26, from Hemet, California on a fourth tour of duty. Lost his life six weeks before his wedding. Highly decorated. He loved being a ranger, fishing and sports. He also served in Kosovo.

He leaves behind parents Grace and Tony, fiancee Sandra and 4-year-old son Tyler.

Bryan Bolander, an American hero.

Thank you to all of our guest and to you at home for being with us.

Nancy, thanks for letting me sit in. Have fun with the kids tonight on Halloween.

We`ll see you tomorrow night. That`s at 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. And until then, have a great evening and a spooky Halloween.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/31/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Possible Second Gunman in Hudson Murders

Aired November 4, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

<Snip>

GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

The search for little Caylee intensifies, with searchers back in Orlando now, and this time with plenty of back up. A team of bounty hunters join forces to zero in on heavily-wooded areas and other key targets. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s case in court tomorrow morning as teams of psychics also converge in Orlando. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for little Caylee Anthony`s body is under way. Search leader Tim Miller meets with police today to talk over plans. The search reportedly will center around an area near the Orlando International Airport.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A cell tower is a three-sided object, and it can give you a direction that the phone was in up to three quarters or a mile- and-a-half. You get enough people out there, you`re going to be able to find the areas where these pings were from.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Almost 2,000 new pages of discovery is expected this week in the disappearance of little Caylee Anthony. Also expected, a pre-trial hearing on theft charges against tot mom, Casey Anthony, scheduled for Wednesday. Anthony could face up to 55 years in prison, if convicted of those charges.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Monday, June 16th, Caylee was last seen alive.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My daughter said she was going to work, and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the babysitter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Of course, it was a lie. Only Casey knows where she really took Caylee.

Equusearch will be back November 8th, leading volunteers in the search for Caylee`s body.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Frankly, there`s not a whole lot of people that we trust. I trust Casey.

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: There was a one-hour period on the 14th, where she texted 66 messages.

This woman is addicted to text messaging. I think if Caylee wanted her diaper changed, she would have to text her mom.

C. ANTHONY: I trust her attorney.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Baez has been reprimanded by jail officials for hugging his client on two occasions. The jail`s visitation policy clearly states there should be no physical contact with inmates.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: All the searchers are headed to or already in Orlando to commence the search for Caylee. Expected, nearly 3,000 people.

Straight out to Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." Fill us in.

JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Well, I tell you, Nancy, this is actually something that has been too long in the making. We`re going to have -- it looks like 3,000 searchers, as you mentioned, out there.

Equusearch is on the ground right now, meeting with investigators, trying to pinpoint their game plan, which areas they`re going to search first and how they`re going to search those.

You`ll remember, Nancy, a lot of the areas last time weren`t able to be searched, because of the weather, because of that tropical storm. So this hopefully will be a more fruitful search.

GRACE: Joining us right now is Gale St. John. She is psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunters." She has already searched for Caylee Anthony.

Gale, thank you for being with us. Tell me about your involvement in the search.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHED FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, we`re still involved with the search. I mean we have volunteer searchers that are there yet. We`re checking out these two very specific areas that we`re having checked out at this time.

GRACE: Which are what?

ST. JOHN: We`re still going back to the Heintzelman/Weatherbee area. The one area was extremely wet, not able to be searched. That area still needs to be searched. And there is another area that was brought to our attention, the Lake Pickett in Route 50. It`s kind of an area that makes a circle around and that area is being checked.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, now helping to search for Caylee -- he has rounded up bounty hunters to join the search, and he is leading them as they join forces with Equusearch, Tim Miller.

Leonard, the psychic has stated where they are searching. How does that fit in with your theory of where the remains may be?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re -- the focus that we have is the pings off the towers on the 27th. Now, obviously, Tim is back there today. He`s got 48 hours in which to get ready. Actually, he`s got four days in which to get ready. The search starts on the 8th.

But we`re going to focus strictly on what he says. He is in charge, he is the leader. Whatever Tim says, that`s where we`re going.

GRACE: Yes, you told me that last time. What I asked you, Leonard Padilla, was how does your search coincide with what the psychic just told us they are doing?

PADILLA: It doesn`t, because we`re searching in a different area, totally different.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Power on, because that will cover two areas at the same time.

Back to Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunter." She has already been there in Orlando searching for Caylee. Everyone converging again in just a couple days to commence the search. Many volunteers and searchers, including Texas Equusearch, already on the ground right now as we go to air to commence the search.

Gale St. John, a lot of people don`t believe in psychics, that`s nothing new to you. But I want to hear what your psychic visions railroad or feelings have been about the search for Caylee?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, I`m not here certainly to make anybody believe in psychics, and our team has more than just that to offer as we do go out and search.

You know, the biggest most important thing that I have gone on is the feelings that I had while I was there twice in Florida, which has led me back to that Heintzelman/Weatherbee area.

Like I said, unfortunately, it was so wet we could not search that area. I`m still hoping -- according to the volunteers that we have right now in the area, they`re saying that it has cleared up, and it is now able to be searched and I feel that`s important.

GRACE: Gale, what was your vision? What do you see or feel that leads you to that area?

ST. JOHN: Well, originally, I had gone on things that I had seen visually.

GRACE: What?

ST. JOHN: But I was here in Ohio. I saw a wooded area. I saw some names of streets. Streets that began with, you know, names like that. So that`s kind of what led me there.

GRACE: Names like what?

ST. JOHN: Like Heintzelman, Weatherbee. I had seen things like that, heard names like that. And.

GRACE: When you say you see and hear, does this happen when you`re asleep, or is it a vision that comes to you in the daytime, during your waking hours?

ST. JOHN: During my waking hours is when I have visions.

GRACE: How does that happen? See, many of us are -- want to know more about it, or are intrigued by it. So what do you, stand there at the dishwasher and suddenly, you see the name of a street, it comes -- you just get a thought, like a thunder bolt?

How does it work for you? I know every psychic is so, so different, but how does it work for you?

ST. JOHN: Well, for me, it`s a lot of different ways. I`ve actually been driving down the street and kind of had my entire view blocked, and pictures came in just as if we were watching a television. I had to pull over.

And then other times it`s been more subtle than that. So it`s kind of shocking at times. But, I mean, this started when I was about 4 years old.

GRACE: To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, joining us in New York, I can see that you are shaking your head as she is speaking.

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.

GRACE: Why?

AUSTIN: Well, I have friends who are forensic psychics. I know that this is true. The human brain has so much more capacity than we understand. Why can you be washing the dishes and suddenly remember a song you heard two days ago, or have an intuition about something that will happen tomorrow?

These things do happen. We don`t understand them. And really good psychics are professionally trained, just like other people.

GRACE: To our producer, Ellie Jostad -- Ellie, I understand Casey Anthony`s case will be back in court tomorrow morning. Why?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: That`s right. Tomorrow morning she`s going to be facing 13 counts relating to the theft of checks missing from her friend Amy Huizinga.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute, Ellie. I mean, I`m talking about a murder one case and you`re telling me about theft.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Stealing some checks.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Why do we care? What`s so important? What is she facing in the theft charges?

JOSTAD: Well, she`s facing up to 65 years on those theft charges. Each of them is a third-degree felony. She`s looking at a lot of time in those theft charges.

GRACE: Now why so much for stealing checks and forging them?

JOSTAD: Well, what authorities alleged that Casey Anthony did is that she took these checks from Amy Huizinga.

GRACE: Her friend.

JOSTAD: Yes, her alleged friend. She fraudulently used her personal information, so that`s four counts right there. She also passed the check -- actually writing the check itself is another four counts. And the act of cashing the check is another four counts.

So when you add al those up, you`re looking at a lot of jail time.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers again, Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and the famed Richard Herman, defense attorney out of New York.

Penny, I guess you disagree with the stacked charges.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, what I would like to see is how many other people in that jurisdiction have been charged with bad checks and they would get up to 60 years.

GRACE: Really?

DOUGLASS FURR: I mean this is highly unusual.

GRACE: Let`s see, Douglass Furr on the screen again. Yes, there she is.

Could you direct me -- I`ve got my pocket constitution with me that I carry with me all the time. Could you direct me to the clause in the constitution that says there must be uniform sentencing? Because I don`t see it.

DOUGLASS FURR: No, I`m not saying there must be uniform sentencing, Nancy.

GRACE: So what are you saying?

DOUGLASS FURR: But to get somebody on a bad check and then all of a sudden.

GRACE: So?

DOUGLASS FURR: . this woman gets an outrages number of years and somebody else does the same thing and get probation.

GRACE: She hasn`t gotten anything yet, Penny.

DOUGLASS FURR: They`re alleging and attempting to go after an extended number of years. So I would like to see how the judge does go ahead and sentence her.

GRACE: Yes, and I would like to see your legal precedent.

DOUGLASS FURR: And what`s the status.

GRACE: . for an argument that says they`re doing it, why can`t I? You know that doesn`t even make sense.

DOUGLASS FURR: Well, Nancy, I guess if one person commits murder and they don`t want to pursue it, then that`s fine, let them go, but let`s go after this one.

GRACE: Richard.

DOUGLASS FURR: I disagree with that. I think it should be fairly uniform.

GRACE: Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, you know the sentence is going to be concurrent here. It`s not going to be consecutive. She`d be lucky if she gets one or two years of prison for all of that.

GRACE: I don`t know that it`s going to be concurrent. And what do you mean to everybody by concurrent, consecutive, when you`ve got multiple charges like Ellie just told us about.

They can all be -- the sentences run at the same time, like one year on each bad check to all run at the same time, which would equal one year, or one year to run one after another consecutively, which would be 10 or 12 years.

HERMAN: Yes, but she has no prior criminal history. So she`s going to qualify.

GRACE: That we know of.

HERMAN: Right.

By the way, happy birthday to the twins, Nancy. They`re at my office.

GRACE: You know what, Richard?

HERMAN: . signing their contract to be my partners. Defense attorneys.

GRACE: Richard, don`t start.

I want to get back to these charges tomorrow.

To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, you know what? The defense attorneys have a point. You can sentence somebody on theft to the max. I`ve done it many, many times.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Sure.

GRACE: Gotten a plea or a sentence of -- after a trial to the max. But then they may be due a year behind bars, because they got to make room for the rapists and murderers. But could she crack behind bars and tell the truth?

BROOKS: She hasn`t so far, Nancy. But, you know, they do have -- that`s video surveillance evidence that`s going to come into key -- is going to be key in this particular case, but I doubt if she`s going to crack. She is a tough nut.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. I need to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, LEADING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Caylee`s little body needs to be found. The search will be larger than any search, I feel, we have ever done in history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: With us right now, Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, leading the search for Caylee. Tim Miller, not just a searcher, he is a crime victim himself. His daughter went missing and was murdered. Her body found long after.

Tim, thank you for being with us.

MILLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Tim, when you go searching, does the memory of your daughter play in your mind while you are searching?

MILLER: You know it`s not a sad memory anymore, Nancy. It`s kind of the things that when Laura disappeared, unfortunately, her body was found two- and-a-half miles from our house.

But what I did not do back then for my own daughter -- I didn`t know what to do, I basically was just paralyzed. And believe me, I beat myself for feeling I was a father that let my daughter down and I just made a promise the Laura and to God that I`d never leave another family down again as long as there was anything I could do to help.

So Laura`s death was not in vain by no means. And unfortunately, I learned a lot because of her disappearance.

GRACE: Well, Tim, speaking for myself and many others, you have inspired a lot of people to do what they can. I found out the other day, my little court reporter so many years ago, when I would try cases, she was the court reporter, sent you a check after watching you on this show.

A lot of people are believing in you and Texas Equusearch. You`re already there in Orlando. What`s the first thing you plan to do in it the search?

MILLER: Well, the first thing is a lot of planning. We`ve got a location for command center, which is at the Chrysler plant here.

GRACE: Right.

MILLER: We`re going to be bringing in all of the tables and chairs and tents and buildings and copy machines. I`ve got 21 more people that we`re actually flying in from all over the country. That`s a huge core team.

We`re going to have a big meeting Friday night, Friday evening, to set all of the ground rules, go over all of the search procedures.

GRACE: Good, because a lot of nay-sayers are all right attacking volunteers, destroying or overlooking evidence. So that will be a vital, vital moment in your search.

Out to Nate.

Everybody, Nate is Casey Anthony`s former roommate, when she was living with Tony Lazzaro.

Nate, thank you for being with us. Tony Lazzaro was deposed under oath by the defense. Did he share anything with you about where they`re headed?

NATE, LIVED WITH TOT MOM CASEY ANTHONY WHEN CAYLEE WENT MISSING: He didn`t really talk to me too much about what went on. He just gave me a couple of general questions.

GRACE: Like?

NATE: . they`ve asked about were he had lived, you know, and jobs. He didn`t really give me any other insight as to what exactly they discussed.

GRACE: How long was he in there?

NATE: He had left sometime early that afternoon, and I was not home when he got home. But I don`t think he was there terribly long.

GRACE: Very, very interesting that Baez didn`t grill him, because, you know, Mike Brooks, this is like you`re getting a first shot at a state`s witness. What did Baez do, let the opportunity fritter away?

BROOKS: Absolutely. Especially from the video we saw him with Casey at Blockbuster, right in that time frame that the prosecutors feel that Caylee could have been in the trunk of that car dying or already dead.

I mean, it was a blown opportunity, in -- is the way I feel.

GRACE: I want to go back to Natisha Lance, our producer who`s been on the case from the very, very beginning. I know the Anthony family has been forced to move their headquarters again. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: There`s been some vandalism, as well as people threatening to picket these areas where they have set up their tent to do their search headquarters. And because of that, Nancy, they have had to move.

They`re now going to be moving to their sixth location. They have been at Publix supermarket before, at a skating rink, and now they`re hopefully going to get some office space where they can continue to do their search.

GRACE: And to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky from John J. College of Criminal Justice.

Kobe, I understand, of course, you are a paid member of the Anthony defense team, that you`ve come up with a new theory on the chloroform in the trunk.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: I don`t have a new theory, Nancy. But I`ll tell you this. You might be surprised to learn that one out of two vehicles tested for chloroform has come up positive, chloroform in the trunk.

These are randomly obtained vehicles and tested in the same way that the Body Farm did their testing on the vehicle in question.

GRACE: Says who?

KOBILINSKY: Says the Body Farm.

GRACE: Based on?

KOBILINSKY: Based on their findings.

GRACE: Based on how many cars?

KOBILINSKY: I think one out of two.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute, wait a minute. How many cars did they test?

KOBILINSKY: Two.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Wait a minute. Let me see, Kobe. They tested two cars. And half of them had chloroform in them?

KOBILINSKY: Yes. One had chloroform.

GRACE: So you think I`m convinced by a two-car test study?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the issue is.

GRACE: I`m so glad I thought to ask you details, Kobe, on your great new insight.

KOBILINSKY: This is not insight, this is simply a statement that.

GRACE: You know what? I -- if I.

KOBILINSKY: If you get chloroform in a random car.

GRACE: I`m embarrassed for you for even saying that, to suggest to me that that`s a scientific point based on a two-car study? That would be like me taking two guilty pleas on shoplifting and then giving you an overview on felony prosecution.

KOBILINSKY: When you expect to find no cars, finding one out of two is saying a lot.

GRACE: And what was the level of saturation in the one car?

KOBILINSKY: It was not a great quantity.

GRACE: Excuse me, I couldn`t hear you.

KOBILINSKY: It was not a large quantity, but it was there.

GRACE: As compared to what was the saturation level in Casey Anthony`s car?

KOBILINSKY: I don`t think that has been.

GRACE: Heavily saturated. Am I right, Jon Leiberman?

LEIBERMAN: Look, it was enough to indict her for murder, along with all of the other evidence there, and there is a lot of evidence that we haven`t even heard.

GRACE: I`m taking that as a yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. She has a missing child. She`s also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Tonight, again, I want to thank you for all your encouragement, your thoughts and your prayers when John David, Lucy and I were in the hospital for so long.

Today, their first birthday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: This past April I married David and tonight announce that we are expecting twins.

The sexes of the twins had been confirmed by ultrasound -- pink and blue.

Tonight, meet two very special guests, two of the tiniest crime fighters, Lucy and John David.

John David is on the left in the green bassie and Lucy Elizabeth is on the right in the pink bassie.

Tonight, my own true loves here on the set to wish you a Happy Valentine`s Day.

When people say how is motherhood I don`t even know the words to describe it. I really don`t. It`s like nothing I`ve never experienced before. I never thought anything like this miracle could happen to me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Happy birthday.

Let`s stop and remember Army Captain Andrew Pearson, 32, Billings, Montana, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served Afghanistan. A West Point grad, highly decorated, awarded the Bronze Star, Army Commendation Medal and Service Ribbon.

Loved hunting, fishing, riding motorcycle and being a dad. Leaves behind father Ron, Stepmom, Renee, widow Jon Marie and four children.

Andrew Pearson, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/04/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Defense Memo Says Caylee`s Death Maybe Accidental

Aired November 5, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The defense team puts it in writing. Tot mom`s defense? Little Caylee may have died after an overdose of sedatives. They go on to say the tot mom spent other people`s money, wrote bad checks, had a string of lovers and thrived on risky behavior. Then they try to explain why mothers murder their children. That`s right -- it`s all in writing -- they try to explain why mothers kill. This while the defense publicly claims little Caylee`s alive, kidnapped by the nanny and living in Mexico.

The clock ticking down on the state`s announcement whether the death penalty will be sought, deadline November 24, the defense actually arguing mom Casey Anthony too young to get the death penalty. How old do they think little Caylee was? And in a play for sympathy, they display the tot mom`s own baby pictures, maybe a mistake since they look eerily similar to 3-year-old Caylee.

A bizarre sighting of grandfather George at a heavily wooded area near the Anthony home, that spot a target for search after cell phone records reveal tot mom Casey making repeated trips to this exact area. Searchers and investigators zero in there to find Caylee. Texas Equusearch and a team of bounty hunters converge in Orlando as we speak. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is Caylee Marie Anthony tonight? Even today, Casey Anthony and her family would have you believe she is still just like this, an achingly adorable little girl who has been far from home for far too long.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I still believe in my heart and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter is still out there. She`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Anthony has never been found, and investigators believe the little girl is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state is expected to announce its death penalty decision against tot mom Casey Anthony, charged with first degree murder in the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee. The defense attorneys plan on use baby pictures of Anthony to try and get the death penalty thrown out. Anthony`s lawyers say if Caylee`s death did occur, it was probably a tragic accident. They say Anthony has no criminal record, she`s a good and loving mom, but a troubled one who may be suffering from depression.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere -- she`s out there somewhere, and her rotting body is starting to decompose.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: One thing I know is she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An attorney hired by tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team is reportedly asking prosecutors to show Anthony some mercy and not seek the death penalty. They`re using baby pictures of their client to help their cause. Those photos show Anthony as a baby, playing with her brother and with family members. Anthony`s lawyers say if Caylee`s death did occur, it was probably a tragic accident, and they say Caylee may have been poisoned by chloroform while she was possibly sedated. Anthony`s defense team also says she`s an unlikely candidate for the death penalty because she has no criminal record. And they say she may be suffering from depression or mental illness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On a separate note, Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, was reportedly spotted last week in an area where searches are expected to resume for the little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is another wooded area that`s easily accessible by car yet easy to disappear into. And it`s less than four miles from where Casey Anthony and Caylee lived with Casey`s parents. The Channel 9 viewer told us she saw Caylee`s grandfather, George`s, car parked in this area about 6:15 PM on October 30 and that he was staring into the woods. Then she saw him get into his car and drive away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. To say it is bad enough. To put it in writing, unheard of. I`m reading what reports say was in this defense memo. They actually state if death did occur, it was almost certainly due to an unwitting overdose of sedative, and they allude to chloroform?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They say it was almost certainly a tragic accident, that she might have been poisoned by chloroform, also might have been under the effects of a sedative, maybe an unwitting overdose of a sedative, and again, as you said, using baby pictures of Casey to gain some sympathy from prosecutors in deciding whether to go after the death penalty in this case.

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What happened to, Caylee`s alive, she`s been kidnapped by Zenaida Gonzalez and she`s living in Mexico? What happened to that? Why are we suddenly finding out about a memo -- that is not for the public, I might add, we`re not supposed to find out about this -- the defense writes a memo that says the child may have died by an unwitting overdose? Like Caylee climbed into the medicine cabinet and accidentally got some Robitussin?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Right. There was no mention of Zenaida Gonzalez today. But even today, Jose Baez did say that they still are, you know, under the belief that Caylee Anthony is alive, even as they`re laying out, basically, their defense of why she shouldn`t get the death penalty, among other reasons that she was young, that she may have been mentally ill. One of her attorneys even said, you know, that she is mentally ill, that he wanted her to get a psychiatric evaluation, but Jose Baez wouldn`t let that happen.

GRACE: OK. This is so wrong. We are taking your calls live. The defense actually putting it in writing -- and of course, it got leaked -- that little Caylee may have died from an accidental overdose, alluding to the chloroform found in the tot mom`s car trunk.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. I can`t wait to hear this. Everybody, child advocate out of LA, you know her well, Gloria Allred, joining us tonight, veteran defense attorney Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell also joining us out of Atlanta.

Ray, what were they thinking? What were they thinking to, number one, even say this, and number two, put it in writing?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, let me take a contrarian approach to this. I think they knew it was going to get leaked. I think a very -- much more savvy defense counsel is trying to steer this to a guilty plea to count three of that indictment, the aggravated manslaughter count, the language of which permits a plea if there was an accidental death. And I think that`s where they`re going.

GRACE: OK. Let me see -- there he is. So Raymond Giudice, what would be accidental about putting a rag soaked in chloroform over a child`s mouth and leaving her in the car trunk?

GIUDICE: If what she was trying to accomplish was to sedate the child or calm the child down or medicate the child...

GRACE: Medicate the child...

GIUDICE: ... and the child died accidentally.

GRACE: You know what, Ray? You know, I know you haven`t given birth, but typically, when a mother wants to calm a child, you sing it a lullaby. Maybe you take it to the window. Maybe you get up and walk around with it. You don`t give it chloroform.

GIUDICE: And that`s the difference why it would be a felony, Nancy. I agree with you, it`s a crime. But the difference is, it`s not a capital death penalty homicide, and that`s where the defense is going.

GRACE: You know what? You are making me break my vow to give up cursing, Ray Giudice. Gloria Allred, please explain the theory of felony murder and why this would be a murder one, if this scenario is correct.

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, it could possibly be murder one. And you know, here`s the question that I have, too, Nancy, which is, why, if they want to claim insanity, would they not permit a mental exam of their client?

GRACE: Well, I can tell you that, Gloria.

ALLRED: Why?

GRACE: Because they`re still saying the child is -- publicly, anyway, Jose Baez, the defense, is saying the child is alive, she was kidnapped by a nanny, and she`s well and thriving in Puerto Rico or Mexico or Texas. This was not to be leaked. This is completely contrary to their public position.

ALLRED: They`re trying to have the best of all worlds, and they can`t. They`re going to have to choose a theory. They`re going to have to have facts that support their theory, and they`re going to have to stick to it. They`re not going to be able to have it all.

GRACE: Renee Rockwell, you know, when you try to go and work out a deal with prosecutors, you don`t put it in a written memo that`s going to be made part of the record, the public record. That`s not the way it works. If you have confidential things to tell the prosecutor, you go meet with them and tell them.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and make sure all the rooms are closed, and there`s no tape recording running, Nancy. It`s just so reckless to me. It`s so reckless that I almost have to agree with Ray that somebody may have wanted this to leak out only maybe to poison the thousands of the jury venire in the event that...

GRACE: Really? Really?

ROCKWELL: ... this case does go to trial.

GRACE: Because the effect that it`s having, after all that the public has been put through, much less the grandparents, all of the volunteers out there searching, looking for her, all the people looking for her on the streets, calling in tips, and now we find out the defense puts it in writing? Let me just go ahead and quote it. "May have been poisoned by an accidental" -- excuse me -- "unwitting overdose of sedative"? That`s supposed to engender my sympathy, Renee?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, they`re just putting it out there because all the publicity so far has been so negative. And I`m waiting for some type of a change of venue, Nancy. I don`t see how there`s going to be -- if there`s a trial in this case, I don`t see how they`ll ever find a fair hearing.

GRACE: Well, here you go, artfully dancing away from the topic.

Mike Brooks, you know what? This whole panel, except for Allred, is upside-down.

(LAUGHTER)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: As usual! Well, And I`ll say Ray usually is a little bit on point.

GRACE: Come on. It`s out there. I`ve got it right here, quotes from the memo where they actually say -- first of all, they talk about her risky behavior, a string of relationships with men, spending money she didn`t have, writing bad checks. And they go on to say an unwitting overdose of sedatives may have resulted in Caylee`s death? After they`ve led police on a wild goose chase, lambasted them for not searching for Caylee alive, and now we get this?

BROOKS: You know, it sounds like Morgan (ph). They`ve created a false hope, you know, with George and Cindy. Now they put this out there. It sounds like they`re trying to go for the manslaughter, or they`re trying to make up a defense that she`s mentally deficient.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me the truth, and we can work with that. Or if you continue down this path and continue lying, I can tell you that when this snowball gets to the bottom of the hill, the only person who`s going to get hurt is you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not true. A lot of people around you get hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your parents...

CASEY ANTHONY: A lot of people are hurting right now and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you know what? One person could put a stop to that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been trying.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On her MySpace page dated July 7, a week before Caylee was reported missing, Anthony posted, "What is given can be taken away. Everyone lies, everyone dies, life will never be easy."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: In a stunning defense memo, in writing, the defense admits that little Caylee may have died of an unwitting drug overdose.

We are taking your calls live. To Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It doesn`t seem possible that the babies are a year old.

GRACE: Sheeba...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am just -- it`s just amazing.

GRACE: I can`t believe it. I can`t believe it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are beautiful.

GRACE: You know what? I wake up in the night sometimes and just say a prayer of thanks that they are alive and healthy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you get up and go look at them.

GRACE: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you do.

GRACE: All night!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I know you do, honey. My question is, if Casey -- not Casey -- yes, if Casey has lied all throughout her growing-up stage, and her mother and father -- and I must say, especially her mother, kept covering up for her and doing all these things, does she not realize yet she`s raised a brat and a probable murderer? And as far as they said mental thing, I don`t think she has a mental incapacity because she`s only had one child out of wedlock. She has enough about her mind that she knows about birth control.

GRACE: She certainly does, apparently, to Sheeba in Illinois. Now, that`s one part of the discovery we are not privy to.

Let`s go to Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us in New York. Caryn, the memo goes on to suggest that tot mom Casey Anthony has mental problems, possibly even depression. Number one, that doesn`t rise to insanity. But number two, have you seen her on that stripper pole? Have you seen her making out with the other girl while she`s dancing in the mini-dress and a push-up bra? That does not look like depression to me. But I`m just a lawyer. Weigh in.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: You`re right, Nancy. That is not depression. She really fits the sociopath, not depression. This is somebody who, as they say there, does risky things, really attempts to do things she shouldn`t. She forges checks and fraud.

GRACE: Here`s your (INAUDIBLE) depression. The depression is on the left in the blue mini-dress. Go ahead.

STARK: Yes, this is not depression. This is definitely not depression. We know that. We know this is sociopathic behavior. It`s not depression.

GRACE: We don`t know anything because we are just trial lawyers. You explain it to me.

STARK: That`s what I`m trying to tell you. If you do that kind of stuff, it`s like a con artist, when you`re doing fraudulent checks, when you`re running around and doing all that dancing that you`re describing, when you have risky behavior. You take those kind of chances because you need to have that exhilaration. That`s a sociopath, that is not a depressive personality.

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, soon to converge there in Orlando in the search for little Caylee. Surprised at this written memo by the defense?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No. But let me backtrack just a bit, Nancy, for just a second, please. On the 15th, when her mom was choking her and she ran out of the house, she didn`t take no Xanax with her. She had to come up with something. She had the chloroform. She quieted the child, put her in the trunk of the car, but she also left the rag in the trunk, which created enough chloroform there to kill her.

Now, the situation as far as the -- the notation about, if there was a death, it was accidental, it doesn`t surprise me at all because they know we`re going to find the body by Monday, and at that time, all bets are off. The state prosecutor doesn`t have to make a deal. So if she`s going to make a deal, she`d better hurry up and do it now while she`s got some bargaining chips. Otherwise, it`s all over for her. And the attorney, Jose, and the gentleman from Miami, who`s very detached from being involved with her personally, is telling them, We better do something now because these guys are going to find the body.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist joining us from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid consultant to the Casey Anthony defense team. Koby (ph), now, all along, you`ve been telling me how it`s very uncertain as to the body farm tests, about the chloroform being in the trunk. And now the defense has a written memo stating if Caylee`s dead, it`s likely to -- excuse me, unwitting overdose of sedative?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, I find this very interesting. Obviously, the most...

GRACE: Interesting?

KOBILINSKY: ... the most important goal for the defense is getting this -- this capital punishment possibility off the table, and they`re coming up with every mitigating circumstance that they possibly...

GRACE: And that`s supposed to make me have faith in them, that they`re throwing the kitchen sink at me?

KOBILINSKY: Well, this is legal strategy. And I`m not a lawyer, but it seems to me...

GRACE: Just legal strategy?

KOBILINSKY: ... that putting something in writing is not always the best way to go. But I`m not a lawyer.

GRACE: OK, so your response is they shouldn`t have put it in writing.

KOBILINSKY: I`m saying that, you know, that`s a step beyond what they needed to do. But I`m not making the call.

GRACE: Doesn`t it concern you that they want you to come up with ways to punch holes in the state`s case?

KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s the job...

GRACE: Which you have the intellect and the knowledge to do. You have the power to do that with your knowledge.

KOBILINSKY: That`s true.

GRACE: You, among all people, would be able to do that. But now you see in writing that they`re actually saying point-blank, the child may be dead to an unwitting overdose of sedative, when they want you -- does the truth not mean anything in this arena?

KOBILINSKY: It certainly does. This is a legal strategy. I mean, I`m concerned that the state needs to do top-notch, reliable work at the highest standards. If they may take somebody`s freedom or life away, they have to be held to the highest standards, especially with scientific analysis.

GRACE: So you`re throwing it onto the state. It doesn`t concern you that this is just a strategy and the truth means nothing to the defense?

KOBILINSKY: We`re all interested in justice, Nancy, but we have to make sure that the testing is reliable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee says partly because of that atrocious smell in the car, their mother angrily confronted Casey about her claim that the nanny took Caylee, telling Casey, quote, "We could have found her a month ago. Why did you wait? What have you done?"

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve never seen her be a bad mom. She loves her daughter. I don`t doubt that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee relayed to investigators how Casey started pouring her heart out about the tension between her and their mother over Caylee, starting by quoting Casey as saying, "Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother, and you know, maybe she`s right and maybe I am."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Jim in Michigan. Hi, Jim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a question regarding the grandparents` finances, and I wondered if you or Leonard knew if they were paid for the interview last week on the "Today" show.

GRACE: Interesting question. Leonard Padilla, what do you know?

PADILLA: My understanding is they weren`t paid for the interview. What the television media people do is they license photos and things of that nature, which I believe they were paid for, and then they throw in an interview for free. But they were paid a licensing fee for...

GRACE: Do you know how much?

PADILLA: I`ve heard all the way up to 200 thou.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer. Natisha, what do we know? Were they paid for the photos and video, so you can get around saying you paid for the interview?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I`m hearing the same reports as Leonard Padilla is hearing, actually, Nancy. There is speculation they were paid for these photos, as well as video, upwards to $200,000.

GRACE: When you say speculation, speculation by whom? I mean, is it family members or is it sources that know the family members?

LANCE: No, it`s actually speculation from the media that has been coming out about this.

GRACE: To Kathryn in Connecticut. Hi, Kathryn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just want to let you know, last night when you made that dedication to your children, hats off to you. I don`t know how you did it with a straight face. I would have cried. Knowing what you went through to have those beautiful children and having to watch this every night, it`s absolutely atrocious. A couple questions...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Kathryn. We`re going to break, and we`ll pick it up in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who`s age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Channel 9 viewer told us she saw Caylee`s grandfather George`s car parked in this area about 6:15 p.m. on October 30th and that he was staring into the woods. Then she saw him get into his car and drive away.

She figured he might have been here looking for Caylee, and the information was passed on to law enforcement.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: George and I don`t believe that Caylee`s in the woods or -- you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search for little Caylee Anthony`s body is underway.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Equusearch is back in town, making plans for the next search scheduled to begin on Saturday.

G. ANTHONY: My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony have been put through hell, publicly stating that the little girl is still alive, but now we get a defense memo that states the girl likely dead because of an unwitting overdose of sedative?

They seem to throw the kitchen sink.

Out to the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Ray Giudice, Renee Rockwell.

Gloria, they say, OK, we don`t think she is dead, but if she is dead, it`s because of an unwitting overdose, and even if she is dead, they -- mom has a mental illness, she`s been depressed and they go on and on and on about her erratic behavior.

I mean, which defense are we supposed to pick?

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, exactly. But I think what they`re trying to do here, Nancy, is obviously they`re trying to argue the prosecutors don`t seek the death penalty against her. Because if she did, if she was responsible for little Caylee`s death, it was an accident, or it wasn`t intentional, it wasn`t premeditated, first-degree murder.

But, by the way, if it was an accident why no 9-1-1 call? Why no cry for help? That`s the problem they have.

GRACE: What about that, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I agree. But let me also say that there`s a new sheriff in town. This is new defense counsel, and experienced death penalty counsel. He`s evaluating this case in a much more sophisticated level than Mr. Baez was.

He`s not worried if he gets you angry, Nancy, or has inconsistent defenses, he is trying to keep his client from having a lethal injection.

GRACE: Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with Ray, Nancy. This -- his only job at this point is to keep her alive at the end of the day.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at women who have been sentenced to death in Florida.

Of course, Arlene Wuornos, later played by Charlize Theron. She -- serial killer, seven murders. Tiffany Cole, currently on death row, killed two people. Anna Cardona killed her son. Judias Buenoano, first female murderer executed in Florida since `76, she poisoned her husband.

Virginia Larzelere, currently on death row, killed husband. Andrea Hicks Jackson killed police officer. Marie Dean Arrington killed Husband. Sonja Jacobs, murder of two officers.

So it does happen in Florida that women are sentenced to the death penalty. And in this case, they are also arguing she is not an appropriate candidate for the death penalty. But the reality is, the murder of a child under 12 is an aggravating circumstance for the death penalty, in Florida, Gloria?

ALLRED: Well, yes and so that`s the problem. All they can do is make their best argument. It`s going to be up to the prosecutor and perhaps the prosecutor is committing to advise the prosecutor as to whether or not to seek the death penalty.

Does this case fall within their guidelines for deciding that a death penalty should be sought? That`s going to be the issue.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, leading the search for Caylee, he is there in Orlando, poised to start the search, and he has got a multitude of volunteers, of bounty hunters, of professionals, military, former cops there to help him.

Tim Miller, I understand that you have spoken with the Anthony family this time?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, LEADING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: I spoke with Cindy last night. I spoke with her a couple times a day. It was very pleasant conversation, and -- and, again, Nancy, nobody has ever walked in the shoes of this family right here in this.

GRACE: That`s true.

MILLER: You know, I support -- I support them. And.

GRACE: I know you do. And you always have.

Tim, do the Anthonys tell you that they believe little Caylee is still alive?

MILLER: They do tell me that. And.

GRACE: OK.

MILLER: And I wouldn`t -- never want to discredit them for believing that.

GRACE: Well, then, what do you make of this defense memo outlining how little Caylee may have died of an unwitting overdose of sedative, i.e., chloroform?

MILLER: I think that -- that gives us more reason to put on this huge search that we`re putting together in a -- I mean, the calls and e-mails we`re getting, Nancy, we`ve got over -- people from over 32 states here, they`re coming, people from Canada, from Puerto Rico.

Everybody is falling in love with little Caylee across the country, across the world.

GRACE: They certainly have.

MILLER: And the support is unbelievable. And Nancy, I want to say something to you, if I can, please. You know, you`ve said so many kind words to me, but I just want to tell you that we actually got a check in the mail when Larry said he wanted checks mailed to your show.

A check went to your show, and then you all mailed that to us, and we opened that this morning. And it was a check from one of your viewers that said, please, this donation is for Texas Equusearch for Caylee Anthony`s search. And it is in honor of your children`s birthdays.

And Nancy, what you`ve given to the viewers, what your children have given, how many hearts you`ve touched. But, yes, we got a check in honor of your children`s birthdays, and it just really warmed our hearts.

And, you know, thank you for everything you do. And everybody, just pray for the Anthonys during this period of time, and see if we can bring this to a close.

GRACE: We are. And so many people are. And thank you for that, for what you just said.

Speaking of the Anthonys, to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what about this report that Mr. Anthony was out staring into one of the areas that is -- an area that is targeted for search?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. That report was from last Thursday, which would have been October 30th, and the report was that basically he was kind of staring off into those woods around Orlando International Airport where Texas Equusearch is going to be searching here in the next couple of days.

A spokesman from the Jose Baez law firm said that he was aware that he was out there.

GRACE: For?

PETRIMOULX: Basically, what they suggested is that maybe he was out there to find a new place to set up a kid-finder tent.

GRACE: With me, Drew Petrimoulx from WDBO and Kathi Belich with WFTV.

Back to Catherine in Connecticut.

Catherine, dear, what was your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question, and it`s sort of been touched on. The venue. I know that it was mentioned, but then after today`s disclosure, you know, and the defense, obviously, is putting that out there. I mean.

GRACE: So you`re wondering if they`re going to seek a change of venue?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A change of venue, yes.

GRACE: Gotcha.

Gloria Allred, Ray Giudice, Renee Rockwell, I don`t see how they can afford not to get a change of venue, Renee.

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, the question is, can you find a juror that`s going to be able to sit and be fair, given all the publicity. And when you look at the citizens that have come out just against -- they are mad, they are vicious. They are mad at the parents of Casey Anthony.

GRACE: So what are you trying to say?

ROCKWELL: They are passive. I`m just saying.

GRACE: There is or -- will or will not be a change of venue?

ROCKWELL: I`m saying they`re going to ask for it, because I think they deserve it. I don`t think they can find a fair juror there.

GRACE: Take a look at the cities there in Florida, possible change of venues, Tallahassee, Pensacola, St. Pete, Ft. Myers, Hollywood, West Palm, Cape Coral, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville.

There are plenty of places to go. But as of right now, Gloria Allred, no request for change of venue. Why?

ALLRED: Well, maybe they think that they`re not really going to have any better chance elsewhere, or maybe they`re just not going to ask for a change of venue. But even if they do ask, asking doesn`t mean they`re going to get. They`re still going to have to prove that they can`t find fair and impartial jurors where they are. And.

GRACE: Agree, Ray?

GIUDICE: Yes.

ALLRED: Usually jurors say that they can be fair and impartial.

GIUDICE: If it`s a capital case, the defense will make a motion for change of venue. The judge will grant it so as to take reversible error out of the trial.

GRACE: Yes, better safe than sorry.

Everybody, as we go to break, we`re taking your calls live, but I want to tell you about some breaking news.

There`s a massive search underway right now. It`s in Dallas where a 4-year-old little girl abducted after her mother stabbed in a parking lot. Please look. Police say Tonoko Cipriano took off in his ex-girlfriend`s red Toyota with this little girl, Yameli Nava.

License plate L-Love-W-P, Peter 5999. If you have information, please, call Dallas PD 214-671-4268.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE LAWYER: Casey is going through a nightmare.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: There`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again.

BAEZ: She has a missing child.

C. ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is. I am absolutely petrified.

G. ANTHONY: My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be.

CINDY ANTHONY: It just seems like from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you have been building a case against Casey as a murderer. She`s not a murderer. One thing I know is she loves that child.

C. ANTHONY: I just want my daughter back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, to Kathleen in Maryland, hi, Kathleen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m glad you just played that little clip there. My question actually goes way back to when Casey`s mom called -- put in that 9-1-1 call, and she said, I really think my daughter did something.

I mean, as a mother, you feel real strong about those feelings when you put your daughter out there and say you think she did something to her daughter.

Why is it now she is recanting those feelings, and she`s not even playing on that anymore? She is just totally, you know, she didn`t do anything, she is still alive. How can the Anthonys think this?

GRACE: Caryn Stark?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can they think that their granddaughter is alive?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: They need to think it. They really need to think it, because that is what gives them hope and keeps them alive. This is not a bad mother, this grandmother. She was a good mother. And she really needs to defend her daughter. That`s what she wants.

GRACE: Everyone, this, after a bombshell defense memo has been released to the media. Long story short, in the memo, the defense team states that little Caylee may have died from an unwitting overdose of sedative. Chloroform, for instance.

Stunning revelation. After all this time, they have been arguing little Caylee is alive and well, having been kidnapped. And we remember, all the gyrations, Mike Brooks, that tot mom Casey Anthony put police through. I was at Jay Blanchard Park, I worked at Universal, the nanny was at Sawgrass Apartments, they drove her around and around all over Orlando, trying to find the baby.

Now this.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, you go back and as the caller is talking about, it goes all the way back to July 15th, when her world started crumbling down around her when her mother came over to Tony Lazzaro`s house and confronted her.

The same day that she was also confronted by Amy Huizinga about the money that was stolen and that`s when her mother said get your things, we`re out of here, and that`s when she went back and made that 9-1-1 call, and that`s when Casey`s world started going downhill, fast.

GRACE: To Jeanne in Massachusetts, hi, Jeanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I just first want to say thanks for all you`re doing, congratulations on your beautiful family. Your twins are so beautiful.

GRACE: I`m really blessed, thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re so lucky to have you and David.

I actually just have two quick questions, Nancy. The first one is if her parents are staying away because of the question of the calls being recorded and people listening, I don`t understand that, because I`m a mother myself, and any mother would want to see her child, just to say hello and say I love you and support you.

So I don`t understand why no one has been to the jail to see her.

And then the second question was, I`m just questioning, I`m a health care professional myself. I actually work in an operating room and I`m a nurse. And when any anesthetic is given or anything is given, and to talk about this poor little girl being given chloroform, most young children, any (INAUDIBLE) anesthetic agent, even it`s tainted with a scent, it`s on them.

Initially they might be a little cooperative, then they go through a disoriented stage, Nancy. Where I could not understand how any mother could not put their child through this.

GRACE: What do you mean disorientation, Jeanne?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they start to fight you and they`re pushing you away and it`s just -- it`s like a disorientation phase before they fall asleep. It`s a horrible thing -- I mean little children.

GRACE: Listen, you know what? For all of the people I put behind bars for all those years, it kills me to even give the children medicine when I have to give them medicine in one of those droppers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh it`s horrible.

GRACE: Can`t hardly stand it. Lucy always clinches her mouth shut. It`s horrible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m just wondering if that would be a mitigating factor as well for her, with this being a death penalty case.

GRACE: You mean aggravating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aggravating, I apologize. Yes.

GRACE: You know, excellent question.

To Gloria Allred, what a child would go through, if this is a mode of death, would that be an aggravating circumstance?

ALLRED: You know, I don`t really think so. I think, really, what her intent was and what her actions were really are more relevant on this issue. And, you know -- and I have to ask, how can she be insane and do this? I mean she has to show a mental disease or defect. She has to know -- she would have to show that she didn`t know what she did was wrong.

GRACE: Gloria, Gloria, Gloria.

ALLRED: Yes.

GRACE: Have you seen the shot of her snugged up to the boy friend, trouncing through the Blockbuster on the day police think this likely may have happened?

ALLRED: Well, yes, and exactly. And that`s why I`m saying.

GRACE: She`s not crazy.

ALLRED: . I think she will have a really hard time with that kind of defense.

HAMMER: You know, to Ray and Renee, it`s -- you know, payback is hell, isn`t it, Ray, when your client there at Blockbuster, snugged up to the boyfriend on the day police theorize she killed her child?

GIUDICE: Look, Nancy, Miss Anthony and her parents have done absolutely nothing to help her case from day one. And I think that answers the earlier caller.

GRACE: What does that have to do with what I just said?

GIUDICE: Well, let me just say that, it doesn`t help. I agree with you. It hurts the case, and I wanted to respond to a caller who said why is no one going to visit her? The new lawyer is saying, you people can`t be trusted. You mouth off, you talk too much. And I`m taking control of this case, stay away from the jail.

GRACE: Renee, the video hurts.

ROCKWELL: Video hurts, and just to piggyback with Ray.

GRACE: Any attempt at insanity -- there she is, you know, at Blockbuster?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, they have not made one good move, there has not been one good photograph. There`s not been one good.

GRACE: That`s not the defense attorneys` fault.

ROCKWELL: There`s not been one.

GRACE: That`s Casey Anthony`s fault. Don`t lay that on Baez.

ROCKWELL: Exactly. No, no, no, I`m not blaming anybody. But she has absolutely, with these fantastic stories, painted herself into such a corner that if there is ever a trial, she is going to have to respond to everything that the state throws out.

GRACE: I want to go back to the search. It`s just about to commence.

Mike Brooks, how will it work?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, Leonard Padilla and his bounty hunters, along with Tim Miller who is the best in the business, they will put -- they`re starting to put everything together.

Tim is putting -- starting to put together his whole game plan along with Orange County and all these thousands of volunteers that are going to be out there. And I`m glad to see that they`re going to have volunteers who are actually, you know, like bounty hunters, retired police officers, firefighters, who know how to handle evidence should they come across it.

But it`s -- it could be a lengthy process. But I hope they will find it and I -- I really think they will.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, the other day somebody was saying, what makes you think -- I says if we have to drain every pond and gut every gator, we`re going to find little Caylee.

We`ve got the people, we`ve got the manpower and we`ve got the area and we`ve got the best, Tim Miller. Tim Miller, directing this search is the best there is.

GRACE: Leonard, you spent time with the Anthonys. How do you think they are responding to this memo, this bombshell that the defense just dropped on us?

PADILLA: Well, right now they`ve got a situation they have to decide. Are they going to stick with Casey in this thing about the baby being alive or are they going to go and help us search for little Caylee and be ho honorable about it?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There is only one reason that my daughter would keep her mouth shut and my daughter would sacrifice going to prison for the rest of her life. It`s to protect this child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy and George wholeheartedly believe their granddaughter is still alive and their daughter is innocent.

G. ANTHONY: There`s a lot more to the story than you guys can ever, every imagine. And it`s all going to come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Diane in Louisiana, hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: And hello to all of our Cajun friends. How are you tonight? What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are just fine. You`re great. Me and my sister love you. You should have run for president. Is it true.

GRACE: Don`t have the stomach for politics.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you heard that Casey got a letter from Scott Peterson in jail?

GRACE: Diane, Diane, it`s not true. I know it`s all in the tabloids. Isn`t that correct, Natisha Lance? That`s all B.S.?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. It`s not true whatsoever. There`ve been report saying that they have some type of love affair going on and once they`re released they`re going to come together. But it`s completely not true.

GRACE: Once they are released?

LANCE: If they were released.

GRACE: OK.

Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV, I understand the defense actually doesn`t mind that this memo has been made public?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: It seems like that is where it would have come from. I`ve talked to the prosecutor`s office here. They call it outrageous that a document like this was released before it`s been in -- filed in court.

The judge is not aware of this document and it`s -- now the public is aware of it. They are calling it inexcusable.

GRACE: Does that mean that -- does that mean, Drew Petrimoulx, that the defense leaked it?

PETRIMOULX: You know, we don`t know that for sure, but I mean, I`m sure you could ask your lawyers that some of the things they do just don`t make sense on one hand arguing that Caylee is definitely alive and on the other hand laying out a case for why she shouldn`t get the death penalty because Caylee died on accident.

So a lot of the thing that the attorney has done doesn`t really make sense.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant First-Class Lawrence Ezell, 30, Portland, Texas, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served in Afghanistan, highly decorated. Awarded the Bronze Star, Army Commendation medal, Army Achievement medal.

Dreamed of being a cop or military. Leaves behind grieving widow Christy and 2-year-old son, Tristan.

Lawrence Ezell, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/05/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

More Investigative Documents Released in Casey Anthony Murder Case

Aired November 6, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, 500-plus pages of highly sensitive police investigative files released. We learn tot mom admits she refuses to cooperate in the search for Caylee, repeatedly saying cops will not, quote, "break" her. She even bragged psychological testing confirmed she`s normal and that she`s never had a single mental health problem. Well, somebody should tell her defense team because they`re claiming little Caylee may have died from an overdose because mom Casey`s depressed or has a mental defect.

A leak from inside the prosecutor`s office says they will not seek the death penalty. These bombshell documents just released also reveal grandfather George physically sick to his stomach describing when he smelled mom Casey`s car and his gut-wrenching fear little Caylee was dead in the trunk. More friends reveal mom Casey never mentions a baby-sitter or shows any concern after Caylee goes missing. More of mom Casey`s web of lies emerges, even lying to her own lawyer. The defense files a motion demanding forensics from Tennessee`s Oak Ridge lab, all the tips, crime scene photos, investigative reports. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There`s only one reason that my daughter would keep her mouth shut and my daughter would sacrifice going to prison for the rest of her life. That`s to protect the child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense insists that Caylee Anthony is alive. But at the same time, the defense is arguing if Caylee is dead, that it was, quote, "almost certainly a tragic accident," and that Caylee could have been poisoned by chloroform or she could have died while she was sedated from an unwitting overdose of sedative. The defense document describes Casey as troubled, possibly depressed.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Tonight. -the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee is not dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all believe she`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In hundreds of pages of new discovery documents, we learn George Anthony believes that if he`s lost Caylee, he`s lost Casey, too, the interview ending abruptly when George Anthony tells investigators he`s feeling sick and later vomits.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s father, George, told investigators, I believe that there`s someone dead back there and I hate to say the word human. He told them when he opened the trunk of the car, he said to himself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t like the smell in the car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense document cites Casey`s lack of emotion after Caylee`s disappearance as proof that Casey is not normal, possibly suffering from mental or emotional stress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The document also argues that the death penalty is not an appropriate sentence in this case because Casey is young and she`s never had a criminal record.

CINDY ANTHONY: She is not a murderer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I will lie, I will steal and do whatever I can to find my daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, how did we get these documents?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, today the state attorney`s office released 500 pages of new documents, and we`re getting a very interesting look into how George Anthony acts behind closed doors when he`s only talking to investigators. He says that when he went to go pick up Casey`s car from the tow truck company that he was afraid that Caylee was in the trunk just by the smell that was coming from outside.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Hold on. I asked you how these documents were released. That`s what I asked you.

PETRIMOULX: It was released by the state attorney`s office. This is the discovery.

GRACE: Why? Why was it released to the public, though? How does the media get their mitts on it?

PETRIMOULX: It was basically e-mailed to our newsroom desk. This is something that Jose Baez has been asking for, and I`m not, you know, completely 100 percent sure of how that legal process works, but just like we`ve gotten all these other thousands of pages, they were, you know, basically e-mailed to our newsdesk.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Angie in California. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to find out about if they`ve ever questioned Casey or anything to do with -- before Caylee ever went missing, the parents said she was working and we know she wasn`t working and we know there was no Zenaida, so none of her friends seem to have seen the baby very often. What was she doing all that time even before Caylee became missing?

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. What was she doing?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, most of the time, her parents were watching Caylee. Sometimes her friends said that she would bring Caylee with them to party and she would put Caylee to bed early and Caylee would sleep through the parties. But most of the time, the grandparents were watching Caylee.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s father, George, told investigators, I don`t want to believe that I have raised someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. But he went on to tell them, I believe -- I believe that there`s someone dead back there, and I hate to say the word human. I hate to say that. He told them when he opened the trunk of the car, he said to himself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told investigators his daughter, Casey, lives on the edge, that she takes things as far as she can take them and then she piles on more. He said they caught her in lies about work, money, and said she`s really good with computers. George Anthony also told sheriff`s investigators that the very first night they found out Caylee was missing, Cindy told him, We lost her, we lost her. When he asked who, she said, Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, is it true that she actually brags that police won`t "break" her to get her to tell the truth, that she`s almost proud she`s not cooperating in the search for little Caylee?

PETRIMOULX: Yes, well, this comes from an interview with Department of Children and Families, where she basically says that the sheriff`s office is trying to break her and make her admit to something that she didn`t do. She tells them that she won`t break and that her and her attorney are ready to take this to trial.

GRACE: And she also goes on to brag that she has been psychologically examined and there`s absolutely nothing wrong with her?

PETRIMOULX: Yes, she talks about the evaluations that she got before she would be allowed to be let out of jail that first time and said that those tests showed that she didn`t have any mental problems.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta Eleanor Dixon, defense attorney out of Atlanta Peter Odom, and New York`s Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?"

So Eleanor, bye-bye mental defect defense.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Oh, exactly, Nancy. I mean, it`s her own words coming back to haunt her. She couldn`t have said it better herself. And as a prosecutor, I would hammer that home.

GRACE: Also with me tonight, a very special guest joining us exclusively, attorney Mark Nejame. He is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He is a veteran trial lawyer trying to help the grandparents. He is not in any way involved in the defense of Casey Anthony.

Mr. Nejame, thank you for being with us. I was especially interested in these documents where your client, George Anthony, says he was physically sick -- he was sick when he was recounting to police -- in fact, he went and threw up. He was recounting to police a story of when he got to that car and he smelled the smell, and these documents say he was muttering, Please don`t let it be Caylee in that car trunk.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, it`s fully been -- you know, this is -- this -- these documents have been here for a while. They`ve just been disclosed to the public. And it`s the point we`ve been wanting to make that I`ve been making all along. These are grandparents who have been going through an unimaginable hell. And they speak for themselves. You know, for anybody who`s been so vicious to suggest that they`ve had anything to do with this, these are the documents that, you know, we knew would be coming out, that these parents -- these grandparents are just devastated and were from the onset.

GRACE: You know, George Anthony -- everyone, we`re talking about little Caylee`s grandfather. He said that when he drove up to the home that evening, grandmother Cindy was pacing back and forth and back and forth out in front of the house, and her first words were, We lost her, we lost her. And he said, Who? She said, Caylee, we lost her. What did she mean by that?

NEJAME: Well, it`s obviously not my place to be commenting about that. We talked about before that the state is prosecuting this, and you know, my clients are going to be called as witnesses and have already been questioned by law enforcement. So we`re going to leave that up to them. But I think it clearly shows that these are two grandparents who were completely blindsided by these unfolding facts and that they`ve just been - - you know, found themselves in an unimaginable hell.

GRACE: I understand that your client, Cindy Anthony, has been very opposed in the past to Tim Miller with Equusearch coming and searching for possible remains of Caylee. Why?

NEJAME: That`s not correct. Tim is here with me right now. Tim and Cindy had a meeting in my office today...

GRACE: Recently. I said in the past.

NEJAME: Well, in the past, there was a misunderstanding. Cindy -- when Tim first came -- I think Tim can better speak to it. There was an understanding that he was coming here to search for a Caylee who was still with us. Tim ended up primarily doing a search, a ground search for a Caylee who`s no longer with us. And there was miscommunication, misunderstanding. Cindy fully supports and appreciates the people that are going out and assisting any positive way they can, whether they believe Caylee is with us or Caylee`s not with us.

And so that`s what we`ve been assisting them, is to communicate. Now there`s a full and complete understanding, and there were tears and there were hugs and there was an understanding. And I think that -- in fact, I know George and Cindy fully support everybody`s assistance, especially Tim`s, so that we can get some answers. And what`s being set up is a ground search and a live search. So we`ve got all answers for all people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Every focus that`s on Casey takes effort away from Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where my daughter is. Yes, that is the truth.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a moment that you`ve ever thought for a second that maybe Casey had a hand in Caylee`s disappearance?

CINDY ANTHONY: Why go through all of that? Why put us through all of that? It doesn`t make sense. She would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A web of lies -- that`s what police say they are dealing with in the search for Caylee Anthony.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`d lie to your parents and friends concerning your child`s whereabouts.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: You`re blaming that you`re sitting in the jail? Blame yourself for telling lies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going around and around with you, you know, because that`s pretty pointless.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She lied to the cops. She lied to everybody.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re tired of the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Over 500 documents inside the investigation just released, stunning interviews with grandfather George Anthony. We find out so much of his thinking.

To Kathi Belich with WFTV. Remember what he said in these documents regarding the pool in the back yard?

BELICH: Yes. Apparently, at some time around June 24, he believes he saw that the ladder to the pool was not safely stowed the way they did stow it so that Caylee could not get to the pool. And they -- he and Cindy had an argument about that. She accused him of being careless because, you know, it wasn`t safe for Caylee. He said he didn`t use the pool. And then they started to theorize that possibly that ladder was like that and possibly that had something to do with Caylee`s disappearance, that perhaps something had happened, that she had gotten into that pool and there was some sort of accident.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, Mike, when you go back to your home or your apartment after work, you know how you left it. You know what -- I do, anyway -- what lights I leave on, how I leave the windows, the door. And when you come in and you see something out of place or something unusual, you notice it. Or at least I do. When they came home and they saw that that aboveground pool ladder was, I guess, there up against the pool, they never left it like that because of Caylee.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Exactly. And you know, that has been one of the theories all along, Nancy. You know (INAUDIBLE) again, totally speculative. But that was one of the theories, that she had possibly drowned in the pool and that she`d taken the body and put it in the trunk. Now, they had also -- the cadaver dog apparently had hit on some human scent back by the little play area, which is not too far from the pool. So again, this is, again, one of the speculative theories, along with the chloroform and putting the baby in the trunk.

GRACE: Yes, but you know what? The pool theory doesn`t work...

BROOKS: No.

GRACE: ... because that does not account for the multiple searches on line for how to make chloroform.

BROOKS: Right. And the large amount of chloroform in the trunk. You know, there`s some theories -- OK, if it was a decomposing body, it would be smaller -- no, I`m not buying it. I`m thinking it`s the chloroform, just like you said, Nancy.

GRACE: And what did we learn -- to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO -- about George Anthony`s feelings regarding the defense attorney, Jose Baez?

PETRIMOULX: He basically says that (INAUDIBLE) he doesn`t like him, that he thinks that he has some kind of ulterior motive to take this case, and he doesn`t even know how that Casey is paying him.

GRACE: You know, the fee was about $5,000 up front she said she could pay and more later.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman. What could be an ulterior motive?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The only ulterior motive is getting publicity and getting your name out there and winding up on CNN every night as the attorney in a big case, which is not necessarily...

GRACE: Well, he certainly got his name out there. But I don`t know that it`s actually in a positive way, especially with those horrible PR relations that keep coming out. You know, Baez has not really done a bad job when he speaks publicly. He`s keeping mum. His client has spoken, Peter Odom, and that`s saying a lot. Usually, they talk like crazy when they get behind bars. He`s managed to keep a lid on her behind bars, anyway.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly, Nancy. You know, we might second guess things that Baez has done, but he is doing a valiant job. And while some people might say...

GRACE: I don`t know if I`d go so far as valiant, Peter.

ODOM: But some people might say that he`s -- he`s not being seen in a positive light, but certainly, there`s a large sector out there that seems him as doing just what a defense attorney should do, vigorously representing the client.

GRACE: Well, Eleanor, speaking of not yakking -- the Department of Family and Children`s Services came over to investigate little Caylee, and mom Casey just sits down, kicks back and says, Hey, mom, put a sock in it, I`m going to do the talking. And she retells her whole story to these case workers. They`re like therapists.

DIXON: You`re right, Nancy, and they`re in a totally different position than law enforcement agents. And you know, it`s just another way that her story is getting out there and another way that you can impeach her perhaps later on with her lies.

GRACE: Yes, the Constitution protects you from police questioning, but not from blabbing to, you know, basically, volunteers that come in to look at a case.

To Kathi Belich. What did she tell the Department of Family and Children Services? We learned that in these documents, as well. She went on and on and on.

BELICH: She did. She insisted that she did still work for Universal Studios, which we all know that she did not.

GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait. Stop right there. Leonard Padilla, did you hear what Belich just said? The DFACS workers come in and she goes, I don`t know why police keep I don`t work at Universal. I do. I`m seasonal. There are pay stubs. She`s sticking to her story no matter what, Padilla.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, here`s what happened, too. The day the caseworker came out there, there were several of us there and a couple of the people were inside. And after the caseworker left and she went through her litany of lies one more time, she turns around and she says, I`ve got to find those pay stubs. They don`t want to believe that I still work out there. And she actually started looking for the pay stubs in the room.

GRACE: You know, I`ve got to go to the shrink. Dr. Janet Taylor joining us, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, it`s really bizarre, and it`s something that George Anthony, we learn in these documents, said, that Casey will take things to the limit, like insisting she worked at Universal and actually taking cops to Universal. And the poor security guy didn`t know that cops knew she didn`t work there, so he was trying to find the name of her boss and trying to find her name on the roster.

So they finally let them in. She goes all the way up to the door of the wrong building and says, OK, you guys have been looking at me the whole time. I admit I don`t work here. And just like this, she unloads on the county workers, tells the whole story again, then in front of everybody, goes to look for pay stubs that don`t exist. What is that?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly, she believes her own lies. I mean, she has a long history of not telling the truth. Her father indicated that she`s a risk taker, and maybe in her own way, she`s just trying to game the system and see how much she can say before she actually gets pinned to something. But it`s interesting she has a way of making people believe her, and then she reels them, in and then that`s why we have just the big buckets, literally, of lies.

GRACE: And just like Anthony says, she takes it to the limit. Kathi Belich, what else did she tell the caseworkers?

BELICH: She explained how Caylee`s father had died in a car accident. He had set up a trust fund for Caylee. She talked about the baby-sitter again, Zenaida Gonzalez. And then again, she said she was tested psychologically, that she`s normal, and the sheriff`s office investigators are not going to break her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say to the people who say your daughter has lied, that think she was up to no good and that she might have harmed your granddaughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, those people don`t know my daughter. Anybody that knows Casey knows that she is a loving mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, the state attorney`s office has doubts on whether there`s enough evidence to seek the death penalty against Casey Anthony. We don`t if we`re going to have enough aggravating factors, he said. The case is developing. We`re still looking for a body. Bottom line, he says, death has not yet been ruled out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People." Let`s talk about the death penalty. Sources with in the DA`s office say they`re not seeking the death penalty, they don`t have enough aggravating circumstances. All it takes is one. And in Florida, simply the murder of a child under 12 equals an aggravated circumstance. What are they thinking?

SHERMAN: They`re thinking they don`t know what happened. And that`s the appropriate decision they`re making at this point.

GRACE: Well, they know enough to charge her with murder one.

SHERMAN: Well, there`s a big difference between just charging someone with murder one and asking for the death penalty. I think they`re making an appropriate and reasonable and cautious stance of waiting to see what comes out, what turns out, whether or not she...

GRACE: I bet you do...

SHERMAN: ... pleads guilty...

GRACE: ... don`t you!

SHERMAN: Absolutely.

GRACE: What about it, Eleanor Dixon?

DIXON: Well, Nancy, you`re completely right. It only takes one aggravating circumstance. In Florida, as you said, the death of a child less than 12 years of age, that would be one. And it`s enough for the death penalty.

GRACE: It`s also especially heinous, atrocious and cruel, which is another circumstance, Eleanor.

DIXON: Exactly. So you`ve got two. And there`s probably more, too. But think of the chloroform.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: After about 7 o`clock when I still hadn`t heard anything, I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He told investigators that his daughter Casey lives on the edge, that she takes things as far as she can take them and then she piles on more.

C. ANTHONY: Walked her to the stairs. That`s where I dropped her off a bunch of other times besides just that day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. When you dropped her off, who took her at that point?

C. ANTHONY: Zani did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t tell me, anybody, I can find Caylee?

C. ANTHONY: No, because every number that I`ve tried, every number that I`ve called is disconnected.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George Anthony told sheriff`s investigators that the first night they found out Caylee was missing, Cindy told him, we lost her, we lost her. When he asked, who, she said, Caylee.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE LAWYER: We all believe she`s alive. And these tips are -- if there`s one credible tip in that 5,000, it`s worth us going through.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Doesn`t the key lie with her? Why do you need to rely on strangers` tips when she is the one who really can lead her in some direction?

BAEZ: Cathy, I`m not going to disclose any theories of defense or anything that we plan on bringing out in the court.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think she`s being open and honest with you?

BAEZ: I don`t think that`s wise for me to make any statements about my communication with her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You`re not going to disclose anything? Well, guess what? A written memo from the defense camp has surfaced to the prosecutors asking them not to seek the death penalty. In it, it goes so far as to state the little girl may have died from an overdose of sedatives.

We learn of these police documents I`ve got in my hands right here, George Anthony states -- I told the guy will you please walk around the back of the car and looked inside with me. As I walked around, I whispered out to myself, please don`t let it be Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s what I -- my heart was saying.

I opened it up and I saw the bag. That`s when I saw the stain. I did see a stain. It`s where the spare tire was, a basketball-sized stain. Not exactly circular.

OK. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist from John J. College of Criminal Justice, paid consultant to the Anthony defense team, there`s the stain you kept saying didn`t exist.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Oh, I -- that`s not true, Nancy. I never said the stain didn`t exist. I think anything in that car is important physical evidence and obviously.

GRACE: So could you explain to me, Kobe.

KOBILINSKY: Yes?

GRACE: . how a stain came from an old pizza?

KOBILINSKY: How can I even comment about that?

GRACE: Because that`s what the defense said. That`s what the family said. That was the smell, that was the stain, an old pizza.

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, that`s not science. And I deal with science. I have great respect for the legal system, I have great respect for the scientific system. I think if they`ve both got to be held to the highest standards and that`s what I`m trying to do.

GRACE: I respect that, Kobe. You know, I`ve known you for many, many years. I don`t necessarily respect what you say about this case, but I do agree with that.

We are taking your calls live. To Betsy in Indiana. Hi, Betsy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you, dear?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I want to say I love those twins of yours.

GRACE: Oh, I do, too. I do, too. I was up with little Lucy all night long and it was worth it. At 1:00 a.m. she was just sitting there looking at me. Like let`s play.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to ask, remember when the grandfather George said that wasn`t my granddaughter`s body in the trunk of that car -- who was it?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Back to Peter Odom, if it wasn`t little Caylee, does that mean there`s a third -- a third person we don`t know about? Another dead body? That`s been in a trunk?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s really hard to sort of rely on what George Anthony said. This is a man that is suffering great (INAUDIBLE) of grief.

GRACE: That`s not the point. That`s not the point. There was a dead body in the trunk according to forensics. If not Caylee, then that means somebody died up in the trunk?

ODOM: If the defense is pursuing a strategy that Caylee is still alive, in my opinion, that`s a bad strategy. No one reasonably believes that at this point.

GRACE: So that means, Mickey Sherman, they`ve got to fall back on insanity or mental defect? Her client just bragged to people -- she`s perfectly sane.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Well, everything we`ve said tonight seems to prove that she`s a pathological liar. And that seems to be the foundation for maybe.

GRACE: Not a defense. Not yet, anyway.

SHERMAN: Well, it`s -- the foundation for someone who`s not all there. And I think that is maybe to see that they`re trying to play right now.

GRACE: Hey, Sherman.

SHERMAN: The diminished capacity.

GRACE: You want to tell me you`ve never told a pack of lies in your whole life?

SHERMAN: Never, never. And I just did another one.

GRACE: See, you just did another one.

That is not the framework, Dr. Janet Taylor, for any type of mental defect defense.

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, absolutely. And clearly -- I mean in the realm of the law, I don`t know, but the framework for mental defect defense, but there can -- you can be psychotic and know right from wrong.

And she has no past history of any mental ailments. She herself said her psychological was normal. She`s never been arrested in the past. Sure, she`s had some ups and downs.

GRACE: OK, Doctor -- Dr. Taylor.

TAYLOR: That`s not enough. Yes. Yes.

GRACE: Are you sitting down?

TAYLOR: Yes.

GRACE: You sure?

TAYLOR: Yes.

GRACE: Good. I have in my hand here more of the documents just released as we went to air where Casey Anthony, the tot mom, says she is going to have a new vocation and that is going to be, "looking for missing children." Thoughts.

TAYLOR: Well, she certainly would be an expert at what it took to find a missing child in terms of how we -- you know, a mom could lose a child and not talk to the police about it. But, you know, maybe she`s turned over a new leaf and is going to help other people.

GRACE: Right. She could start by helping police right now.

Out to Mark Nejame, a special guest joining us tonight in a primetime exclusive. He is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He`s a veteran trial lawyer there in the Florida area.

Mr. Nejame, you have not been happy with some of the comments the bounty hunter Leonard Padilla has made about the case. Why?

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: You mean P.T. Barnum? I think a lot of Leonard personally. But, you know, there`s a lot of speculation that he fuels without having really a lot of facts.

GRACE: Such as?

NEJAME: Well, he started off -- with the first one I remember was within 24 hours of me getting on the case, it was suggested that I help negotiate some sort of book or movie deal that that`s been rampant to several people. I have not made one penny or negotiated anything for any type of deal nor have my clients. You know, to take -- to take speculations in the.

GRACE: Speaking of money.

NEJAME: Uh-huh.

GRACE: Were your clients paid for footage, photos, or interviews?

NEJAME: Absolutely not. You`ve made more money on this case than they have. The fact of the matter is.

GRACE: Let me clarify something.

NEJAME: No, allow me to finish.

GRACE: No. No. No.

NEJAME: Allow me to finish. They have not made a penny.

GRACE: You cannot make a comment like that, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: I did. Why?

GRACE: Because I get paid.

NEJAME: This is fueling your ratings.

GRACE: I get paid.

NEJAME: This is fueling your ratings.

GRACE: . the same paycheck whether I ever met you or whether there had ever been a Casey Anthony just as when I was a prosecutor. I didn`t get a bonus when I got a conviction or somebody got over on me in court. Not at all.

NEJAME: When ratings increase.

GRACE: No. No. Not at all. Believe me, there are not bonuses based on your clients` case.

NEJAME: Nobody is saying that but.

GRACE: No.

NEJAME: Hold on.

GRACE: You just said that, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: I said that you...

GRACE: Yes, you did.

NEJAME: If you`ll allow me to finish, I don`t know what you`re afraid of hearing, if you`d allow me to finish I`ll tell you.

GRACE: I`d like to hear the truth.

NEJAME: Then stop interrupting me. The fact of the matter is, is that you and other news agencies go ahead and fuel wild speculation, rampant speculation at times to increase.

GRACE: Such as.

NEJAME: Well, like the dress that was found. I knew about it, law enforcement knew about it.

GRACE: Oh.

NEJAME: Hold on, let me finish. If you want to hear the facts, then allow me to finish.

GRACE: But you`re lying.

NEJAME: Hold on. And you said on TV.

GRACE: But you are lying.

NEJAME: Got an 18-month-old child. I watched your show. An 18- month-old child could sit in a size 5 or 6. You`ve got a 1-year-old. You know darn well that no 18-month-old child could wear a 5 or 6 dress.

We knew it was a fake from the beginning. I spoke to law enforcement, I spoke to Tim Miller. That was going ahead and feeding something what we all knew was.

GRACE: Could you hurry up.

NEJAME: . not the dress.

GRACE: . before have to go to commercial break so I can address your pack of lies, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: Don`t you dare call me a liar because you know darn well I`m telling the truth.

GRACE: Number one, our producer here has a 2-year-old little girl that wears a size 6.

NEJAME: A 6.

GRACE: Number two -- the same.

NEJAME: Ask any mother.

GRACE: The same size as the little girl`s dress that was found. Number two.

NEJAME: Not true. Not true.

GRACE: When your client -- when your client went on the air with the little dress that belonged to Caylee, we showed that the moment that came out to say here`s the dress, the dress that was found was not Caylee`s. And the night that we discovered a dizzy dress had been found, we called you for comment. And you would not comment.

So don`t show up two months later.

NEJAME: Oh no, no, no. You`re not telling the truth now.

GRACE: . and try to make it look like there`ve been a big, a big conspiracy.

NEJAME: You -- you -- no, no conspiracy but it was sensationalized. We all knew the night before that that wasn`t the dressed.

GRACE: Why didn`t you call our producers.

NEJAME: Excuse me.

GRACE: . when we told you and asked you.

NEJAME: It was up -- because it was up to law enforcement to address it.

GRACE: So now you`re on the air whining.

NEJAME: Anybody -- anybody -- nobody`s whining.

GRACE: We got it wrong, but you knew that.

NEJAME: Excuse me. You`re the one whining. I`m calling you on the carpet for sensationalizing something.

GRACE: No. No, sir, you are not.

NEJAME: . that any mother in America would know that a 1 1/2-year-old child does not wear a size 5 or 6.

GRACE: No. No.

NEJAME: Don`t tell me no. You know that`s correct.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony poisoned by chloroform?

Orlando affiliate WFTV is reporting that despite repeated claims from her mother`s attorneys that she`s alive, they`re now planning a memo to prosecutors that if the little girl is dead, it was, quote, "almost certainly a tragic accident." And they`re hinting the death could have been caused by the overdose of a sedative.

Even though the little girl has never been found, her mother, Casey, is charged with first-degree murder in her disappearance and could face the death penalty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: As we go to air tonight, just released, over 500 pages of investigative files from police.

I want to follow up with what the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony was stating earlier suggesting that the media had lied about a little dress volunteers had found.

I want to go to our producer, Norm, who`s standing in the control room. Let`s see Norm. There you are.

Norm, you have a daughter, Isabelle. When she was 2, was she wearing a child`s size 6?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, at certain brands.

GRACE: Are you sure?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

GRACE: OK. I guess, you know, I got a lot to learn as a new mother. The twins just turned 1. But there you have it, from the horse`s mouth.

Mr. Nejame, have your clients taken a polygraph yet? George and Cindy Anthony?

NEJAME: We`ve checked with the expert polygraph officer with -- the expert polygraph.

GRACE: What? I`m sorry, you`re stuttering.

NEJAME: Excuse me, I stuttered, I stuttered, and I apologize.

GRACE: Yes. Just yes or no.

NEJAME: Slow down. Slow down. I made a mistake. I apologize. The answer is we have checked with an expert polygraph administrator.

GRACE: But, but, but.

NEJAME: Don`t interrupt me, please, don`t be so rude. We checked with a qualified polygraph.

GRACE: Yes, no?

NEJAME: One more time. That`s the second time you`ve interrupted me. We`ve attempted.

GRACE: Third, actually.

NEJAME: All right, well, then continue to be rude. Are you through?

GRACE: Yes, no, have they taken a poly?

NEJAME: The answer is, is that we have checked and they are not proper candidates for taking them.

GRACE: Why?

NEJAME: Because she is on medication.

GRACE: Really?

NEJAME: Yes.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks.

NEJAME: Wait -- would you not.

GRACE: Mike, how many people have taken -- take polygraphs that are on medication? I mean.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Tell me someone almost in the United States anymore, Nancy, that`s not on some kind of medication. That is not a disqualifier for taking a polygraph.

GRACE: I want to go back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, these documents that have been released are bombshell, especially when the tot mom goes on and on voluntarily to DFAC workers, Family and Children Welfare, that come to the home.

What possessed her? What does she discuss with them?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, again, she talks about the same things that she told investigators that we now know are not true. They described her as being very smooth, very cool, very emotionally detached.

She was actually telling them that she might get overemotional and may not be able to tell them what they need to know. But they actually described her as quite the opposite. And she actually went on to say also that she enjoyed working with the agencies and volunteers that were looking for her daughter.

There`s no evidence that she ever did that. And then she went on to say as you said earlier that now she`d like this new vocation of helping with missing children.

GRACE: Is it true that the state, Drew Petrimoulx, the prosecutors, are asking for a gag order?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. Well, basically what they said is they`re asking that even people that worked for the sheriff`s office, the state attorney`s office, Jose Baez, anyone that works for his law firm, the Anthony family themselves, all stopped talking about this case.

They even mentioned your show and Dr. Kobilinsky on there saying that all this talk about specifics of the case is, you know, detrimental to the investigation, detrimental to this whole thing and they want everyone to stop all of this conversation about evidence.

GRACE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I understand, Kathi Belich, that another commissary order was made by the tot mom from behind bars and now she`s getting pastries. What happened to gruel behind bars? Now there`s pastries?

BELICH: Getting pop tarts and a lot of snacks and a Spanish-American dictionary among other things that she`s ordering from the jail. I can`t explain.

GRACE: You know, I want to take your calls right now, everybody. Joining us right now, Kathi Belich, Drew Petrimoulx, Mark Nejame, the attorney for George and Anthony, and the rest of our panel.

Donna in Massachusetts, Hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My daughter Corine(ph) and I think you`re great and we have to say thank you for your dedication and compassion and don`t ever change, please.

GRACE: Thank you. You can tell that to the defense bar on the show tonight. Go ahead, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone put a hot pocket in his pocket. But anyways, my question was this. There was a person that saw her coming out of the woods. Was there ever a shovel found or any type of dirt or anything to that effect ever tested?

GRACE: What about it, Kathi Belich? What do we know about that sighting and whether any dirt has been tested?

BELICH: What we do know is the dirt was found in her car trunk. We know that a shovel from her neighbor was tested and according to the reports we`ve gotten so far, there`s not a whole lot of evidence there that would tell you one way or the other what went on.

As far as that shovel that an eyewitness claims to have seen in her hands coming out of the woods, we don`t know where that shovel is. And investigators plan to go back to that area and search this weekend as well.

GRACE: Speaking of the search this weekend, and it`s headed up by Tim Miller of Texas Equusearch, and he is with us tonight.

Tim, as always, it`s good to see you. I understand that you have some extremely sophisticated maps you`re using in the search. What are they?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, we`ve got actually three-dimensional maps. It`s $150,000, it`s a software program itself and we`re going to be doing a lot of flying tomorrow, putting the maps together.

We`ve got tremendous amount of mapping together right now. And Nancy, I think this search could come off as one of the largest searches in history for a missing person. And, again, Caylee has just grabbed the hearts of everybody across America and as huge as growing by the second.

GRACE: How many team leaders are you going to have?

MILLER: We`ve got over 250 team leaders right now alone, not counting the volunteers coming. And so far I think I`ve flown in 32 people as a core team. And it`s -- everybody is looking forward to hopefully bringing this thing to a close this weekend.

GRACE: You know, I pray, I pray that you`re right. So the Anthonys can have some peace of mind.

As we go to break, happy birthday to a little 12-year-old, our New York friend crime fighter Sara. She is a champion for our military heroes and has created a youth initiative called Victoria`s Veterans in her hometown. She is sending cheer and cookies to veterans.

Happy birthday, wonderful Sara.

And tonight, we ask again for your prayers for Attorney Sandy Schiff. Her leukemia has returned and she needs our thoughts and prayers now more than ever.

Sandy, stay strong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Loraine in New Jersey, hi, Loraine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. I think we`re all hoping that the search turns up something so the parents get closure over this. But what happens if they do the search and they do not find anything?

GRACE: You know, good question.

Leonard Padilla, what would be next?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Let me go backwards on something. You know that stain you`ve been talking about? When we brought it up, Cindy told us that that stain was there in the car in the year 2000 when they bought the car for Lee. So any other change in her attitude or discussion about that would be totally different.

Now, if the body is not located in a search, obviously, the defense will say see, she`s alive and she`s somewhere. And then this whole thing possibly will continue. But I believe, and Tim will tell you the same thing, I just got to believe we`re going to find the body.

GRACE: Hey, Leonard, I know you were called Barnum in a circus person.

PADILLA: P.T. Barnum? Let me tell you, let me tell you.

GRACE: No, no, no. Hold on.

PADILLA: Hold on. P.T. Barnum.

GRACE: Have you noticed that people don`t like what you`re saying, they attack you.

PADILLA: P.T. Barnum`s biggest act was Tom Thumb. He made more money by getting him on -- out in the public than any other act he had.

GRACE: And your point is?

PADILLA: Well, I`m not the only one sitting here in front of your camera here tonight.

GRACE: Tell it. Tell it, brother.

All right, everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Chad Caldwell, 24, Spokane, Washington, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served Afghanistan. Awarded two army commendation medals, risked his life saving a lieutenant colonel and a pregnant woman trapped after a bombing.

Loved skateboarding. Dreamed of a military career. Leaves behind parents Carol and Mark, brother Justin, sister Christa. Widow and high school sweetheart Rachel. Sons Trevor and Cohen.

Chad Caldwell, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.

And tonight, a special good night from New Jersey, friends of the show, two little crime fighters, my Liz`s sons, Koa and Kye. They`re naturals, totally naturals.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/06/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

More George Anthony Interrogation Tapes Released

Aired November 7, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. Just released today, caught on tape, grandfather George Anthony physically sick to his stomach describing the smell in mom Casey`s car and his fear Caylee dead in the trunk. And tonight, we have the tapes. On those tapes, from her father`s own mouth, we hear about tot mom Casey Anthony`s lifestyle, night after night out at Fusian lounge, a string of lovers, and Casey Anthony`s web of lies in the days and weeks after Caylee goes missing. This after 500-plus pages of highly sensitive police investigative files released.

And tonight, the search for Caylee back on. Texas Equusearch, a team of bounty hunters from across the country and literally thousands of volunteers converge in Orlando, mapping out key search zones by land, by air to find Caylee. Target? Heavily-wooded areas near the Orlando International Airport and the Anthony home. It`s all based on investigative leads and mom Casey`s cell phone pings placing the tot mom in the exact area at the time little Caylee goes missing. But still, tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I was really shocked to find out she was hanging out at this Fusian club. I guess that`s how she`s met all these people in the last two, two-and-a-half months. That`s what seems like that`s when Casey went really different for me.

Oh, after we pulled inside that garage, she said, her exact words were, Jesus Christ, what died? That`s exactly what she said. But then she said, in a way, she says, George, it was the pizza, right? And I said, Yes, it was the pizza. And that`s what left it go with that. But I`m sitting here as a grandfather, a father, as George Anthony and as a guy who smelled the smell before years ago and you just never forget. I even set my nose down on it and I`m concerned.

Where this is leading, I don`t want to think about it. I don`t want to think about that, but I had bad vibes the very first day when I got that car. I can be straight with you guys and hope it stays in the confines of us three. I don`t want to believe that I have raised, you know, someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. And if it happens, all I can do is ask, if you guys can please call me so I can prepare my wife because it`s going to kill her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a hometown Navy officer gunned down in cold blood. No, not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan, in upscale Virginia suburbs, and the tragedy unfolds directly in front of the victim`s two little girls, his fiancee and the family dog on a stroll in a quaint, pristine neighborhood. Tonight, the manhunt. Who killed Navy Lieutenant Todd Cox (ph)?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We went from planning a wedding to a funeral. And it`s just the same nightmare every day you wake up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A fiancee desperate for help, speaking out after her future husband brutally gunned down. Naval Lieutenant Todd Cox went for a walk with his family. Out of nowhere, a pick-up truck pulls up, a gunman walks up to Todd and fires at point-blank range, hitting Todd multiple times, the brutal murder right in front of his own fiancee and family. Now his fiancee begs for just one tip, so justice is served.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think for the whole family, we deserve answers, and whoever did this needs to pay for what they`ve done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, bombshell in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: The wrecker -- I don`t know what the gentleman`s name, I still don`t know. I`m sure you guys know by now. But he -- as I opened up the door, he says, Whoa, does that stink! And I said -- I sat in the car for a second, opened up the passenger door because I was trying to vent that thing. And I smell, and I`m, like, Oh, God. I tried to start the car for a second, then I said, No, George, if there`s something wrong, you got to find out now. You can`t take it away.

I told the guy, I said, Will you please walk around to the back of this car and look inside (INAUDIBLE) As I walked around, I don`t believe I said to him anything out loud. I think I whispered out to myself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s what I -- my heart was there. Opened it up, and that`s when I seen that bag. I did see a stain. I think it`s right about where the spare time is at, basketball- size or something around there.

I have the same friggin` feeling that I did the day we found the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every tip that we get that`s out of state, the FBI calls up, not local agencies.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not trying to get sick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m trying to be cool. But right now, my -- I`m just -- I don`t feel good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a walk? Here. Come on. Let`s go for a walk. (INAUDIBLE) take a walk. I think we got everything we need.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, George isn`t feeling good. He`s throwing up back here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Just recounting what he went through made grandfather George Anthony physically sick, George and Cindy Anthony taken aback when they learned their little girl, their little granddaughter, has been gone over a month before tot mom Casey Anthony ever reveals it to them.

Straight out to Mark Williams at WNDB Newstalk 1150. What do we learn? You know, Mark, it`s very rare that juries, much less us, the public, gets to hear the actual interviews that police make during their interrogations.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Nancy, one thing about these bombshell audiotapes, it shows you a different side of George Anthony we didn`t know existed. These explosive audiotapes just released -- we`ll hear them a little bit later on the show -- are just mind-boggling. For example, he talks about pulling into his -- into the garage with his car -- actually, it was Casey`s car, Cindy, his wife coming out, saying, and we`re quoting, Jesus Christ, what died? Was it the pizza? Kind of contradicting herself. And George says, yes, it`s the pizza, knowing that it wasn`t the pizza that was rotting in the back.

Also, shockingly, they had to stop the interview with George Anthony at least once because he became physically ill when he was starting to think about the smell of death he received from the car and literally threw up right there in the investigator`s office, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to go straight out to Dr. Lilian Glass, psychologist and body language expert, author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." Dr. Glass, from my own experience after a violent crime, I remember the smell of food literally made me sick. What is the mind/body connection that when you are facing a tragedy, you literally get sick?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: What happens is, you relive the situation and all of a sudden, everything just explodes, literally, because you have gone through what`s like a sensed memory. You`re reliving the whole situation, and so that`s what really made him sick, the reality of the situation.

GRACE: Joining me tonight, a famed medical examiner, Dr. Joshua Perper out of Miami jurisdiction. He`s the author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, it`s great to see you. Thank you for being with us. Doctor, medically speaking, we hear George Anthony physically getting sick. He had to leave the interrogation, he got so sick describing when he smelled the smell of death in the tot mom`s car and his fear as they opened up the trunk, Please don`t let it be Caylee, Please don`t let it be Caylee in the trunk. What is the mind/body connection? Why does your body physically retch when you are upset or afraid or you hear shocking news?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, our body and our mind are really one unit. In the Western world, we divide between them. And in the East, they recognize that they are one unit, and therefore, if you are upset, your parasympathetic system, nervous system, becomes involved and people become -- start to vomit. They become very pale. They become paralyzed sometimes. That`s -- those are the reactions which I expect.

GRACE: Well, you know what`s interesting, Dr. Perper, after many, many crime scenes and dead bodies I saw as a prosecutor -- none of that, blood, you name it, never made me sick at all. But when it happened to me in my personal life, that made me sick. I think you`re right. The way we view the mind/body connection is very, very separate. It`s very compartmentalized.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live. But first, let`s listen to more of these police interrogation tapes. They are just released. And is let me remind you this is extremely rare, very unusual that even a jury, much less the public, gets to hear actual police interrogations. Take a listen to grandfather George Anthony.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: What does it mean? I don`t want to think about it. I don`t want to think about that. But I had bad vibes the very first day when I got that car. I can be straight with you guys and hope it stays in the confines of us three. I don`t want to believe that I have raised, you know, someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. And if it happens, all I can do is ask if you guys can please call me so I can prepare my wife because it`s going to kill her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I first saw you that night, when I first came to your house, there was a mention of the car and there was a mention of what you smelled in the car. Do you remember what you told me?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. I believe that there`s -- something was dead back there. And I hate to say the word human. I hate to say that. When I first went there to pick up that vehicle, I got within three feet of it, I could smell something. You look up and you say, Please don`t let this be. Please don`t let this be. Because I`m thinking of my daughter and my granddaughter first. I glance in the car on the passenger side, I see her seat`s there and I see some other stuff around in it. As I walk around to the driver`s side and I put the key in it, I said, Please don`t let this be what I think it is.

The wrecker -- I don`t know what the gentleman`s name, I still don`t know. I`m sure you guys know by now. But he -- as I opened up the door, he says, Whoa, does that stink! And I said -- I sat in the car for a second, opened up the passenger door because I was trying to vent that thing. And I smell, and I`m, like, Oh, God. I tried to start the car for a second, then I said, No, George, if there`s something wrong, you got to find out now. You can`t take it away.

I told the guy, I said, Will you please walk around to the back of this car and look inside (INAUDIBLE) As I walked around, I don`t believe I said to him anything out loud. I think I whispered out to myself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s what I -- my heart was there. Opened it up, and that`s when I seen that bag. I did see a stain. I think it`s right about where the spare time is at, basketball- size or something around there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did your wife think about it being when she first noticed it? Did she actually notice it, or did she make any comments on it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, after we pulled inside that garage, she said, her exact words were, Jesus Christ, what died? That`s exactly what she said. But then she said, in a way, she says, George, it was the pizza, right? And I said, Yes, it was the pizza. And that`s what left it go with that. But I`m sitting here as a grandfather, a father, as George Anthony and as a guy who smelled the smell before years ago and you just never forget. I even set my nose down on it and I`m concerned.

When I drove around, I told my wife, I said, This car stinks so bad, I can`t -- I`m having a hard time driving it home. It`s raining outside. I have the windows down in this car probably this much to get home. I couldn`t freaking breathe.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: You are hearing extremely rare -- this is police interrogation tapes. And this is grandfather George Anthony`s police speak to him. I`ve got to go out to Brian Reich, deputy chief with Bergen County sheriff`s office. I know you`ve been on a lot of crime scenes, as have I, and I was just trying to describe it here to the people on the set. Once you smell the smell of a dead body, a rotting body, rancid human flesh, it`s -- somebody just asked me, What is it like? It`s like nothing you`ve ever encountered before, and once you smell it, nobody has to tell you what it is. You just know. You know what it is. And you know from then on what it is.

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Absolutely. It`s a very distinct smell, and it`s certainly something you`ll never forget if you`ve had the unfortunate opportunity to have to smell it. And I have smelled that smell before, and I can certainly relate to the -- to not forgetting about what it would smell like.

GRACE: I`m trying to say -- out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping search for Caylee Anthony. He first put up Casey Anthony`s bond, came off that bond. He`s at the Orlando search command post tonight. Leonard, I`m sure you`ve probably on crime scenes, as well. And I was trying to explain, if you imagine the worst garbage, the worst smell you`ve ever smelled and then multiply it by about 50, that`s what you get. It literally -- just the smell can make you throw up.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s right. And once you`ve smelled it -- my very first experience was in Contra Costa. A lady got killed on a Friday night, I think, or Saturday morning. And Monday, we were there because she failed to appear on her bond sometime before. And as you neared that motel room, you could see that something was wrong. And we couldn`t understand why the manager hadn`t been down there or -- well, she didn`t work over the weekend. But once you smell it -- and even right now, when you`re describing and you`re talking about it, I can still smell it.

GRACE: Yes, yes.

PADILLA: And I`m telling you, once you`ve been there, you`ll never forget it.

GRACE: Never forget it.

PADILLA: I`ll never forget it.

GRACE: Everybody, extremely unusual that the public is allowed to hear police interrogation tapes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I have the same friggin` feeling that I did the day we found the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every tip that we get that`s out of state, the FBI calls up, not local agencies.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not trying to get sick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m trying to be cool. But right now, my -- I`m just -- I don`t feel good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a walk? Here. Come on. Let`s go for a walk. (INAUDIBLE) take a walk. I think we got everything we need.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, George isn`t feeling good. He`s throwing up back here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I was really shocked to find out she was hanging out at this Fusian club. I guess that`s how she`s met all these people in the last two, two-and-a-half months. That`s what seems like that`s when Casey went really different for me. At least, that`s what I`m getting from her friends. Whether or not that`s true or not -- maybe she was doing it months before. I don`t know. I -- I -- she`s an adult. I`ve got no control over her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, Mandy Albritton. She`s the deputy director of Texas Equusearch. She`s helping to lead the search for Caylee. She`s joining us right now from the Orlando search command post. Mandy, thank you for being with us.

MANDY ALBRITTON, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: The search kicks off in just hours. Explain to me, what`s the first thing you guys are doing?

ALBRITTON: Well, one the most important things we`re doing right now is we`re holding a team leader training session. And we have 500 registered team leaders who are being briefed on Texas Equusearch`s policies and procedures. We also have our staff medical examiner, who is briefing them, as well. Once they`re trained, they`ll be able to come out in the morning and manage a team of 15 people, get out into the field, and hopefully, we can bring this to a close very soon.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping in the search for Caylee. He has been rounding up bounty hunters from all across the country to start the search tomorrow. Leonard, I understand everybody has to wear a badge, and I`ve got the form everybody`s got to fill out. Why is that? Why does everybody have to wear a badge?

PADILLA: Well, in other things that I`ve been involved in, you don`t want to go out with 2,000 or 3,000 people searching for somebody, and then all of a sudden, you lose somebody or something takes place that you don`t really know who it happened to. So it`s very important. I mean, there are times when people say, Well, you know, everybody knows who I am. Their ego is bigger than their brain.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: However, everybody wears a badge. I had mine made up last night by a young lady. And Tim has got -- Tim`s got probably, without a doubt, the best search organization I`ve ever run into. And I`ve seen law enforcement with organizations across the country that do the same work. Tim`s got it down to a science. He really does.

GRACE: Everybody, that search set to kick off in the Orlando area, thousands of volunteers converging in the search for Caylee. We are live there at the search command center. We are taking your calls live. We`ll kick it off when we get back from this break.

But first, in the last hours, a guilty verdict in the 2005 tragedy inside an Atlanta courtroom. A violent offender facing a jury on charges of rape and sodomy makes his way through a courthouse, gunning down a judge, an official court reporter and deputy, all before killing a federal agent while on the run. Brian Nichols confessed to the shooting spree, but claims insanity. Superior court judge Rowland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brandau, Sheriff`s Deputy Hoyt Teasley and federal agent David Wilhelm all murdered in cold blood. Monday morning, penalty phase, Nichols facing the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Words can`t express how proud I am to be called his daughter and to have his last name. Anybody who knows me will tell you that he`s my everything. And I am so proud that the world knows now, even under these circumstances, what a great man my father was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it a weekday, when you were working, or a weekend?

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys are asking about the 24th? Maybe it was the 24th.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the 24th is the day she took the cans.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Took the cans. That`s...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess what we`re looking at is -- is that what -- it gets back to the -- if the cans are taken on the 24th, that`s because -- that`s in your report. So we know that`s a good date.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think the thing with the pool happened...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the car is towed in the 30th.

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you know she`s not driving from then.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB. When he says, The pool thing, is he talking about when the ladder to the pool was misplaced?

WILLIAMS: Yes, Nancy, he was talking about that the pool area gate was open, the ladder was taken up. And that was around June 24 or so. That was the same day George Anthony had a confrontation with Casey over the gas cans that she had in the back of her car. He wanted to get close to the car, but she wouldn`t let him. It was not a pretty scene out at the Anthony household, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, dear. I know that I came down pretty hard on her mother the other day. But my question is, would the lawyer -- would the lawyer -- their lawyer have them maybe get some psychological help, whether or whether or not they find Caylee? Because I really worry about them.

GRACE: Excellent question. Joining us tonight, let`s unleash the lawyers, Paul Batista and John Burres. John Burres, have you ever suggested one of your clients get help, emotional help?

JOHN BURRES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, my clients, I just suggest that all of the time. I think it`s very important that they have -- get help in a case, whether they need it or not.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Do you think that Casey believes that nobody would forgive her if something happened, if some accident happened, some bad thing?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: That`s -- that is -- that`s -- I`m not able to answer. I`m going to have to think about.

ALLEN: If she ever -- if she thinks that nobody would forgive her for.

ANTHONY: Right. Because when she started coming clean with the money she was taking, and this and that coming up, yes, she balled. I mean she literally balled. She didn`t -- because we just kept on catching her in stuff.

I`ll tell you one thing, I don`t know how one time she made a $4400 or $4,000 deposit into my wife`s account. We still don`t know how she did it. It looked very real, you know, the carbon copy type of thing, and it looked real.

CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Well, did she actually deposit that money or is it -- she just hand you a deposit slip that.

ANTHONY: Right. Now that`s the same amount, I believe, I gave my wife when I sold my Toyota Camry. But I sold my Camry last year, last August. That`s where I got my other car from.

MELICH: What do you think needs to be done?

ANTHONY: Have a chance to talk to her. I -- know one thing. She`ll confide in me probably to a point. Then again, my temperament of being the father might come out and say, listen, don`t give me any crap. Just tell me what`s going on. So that would be the wrong approach for her.

My -- wife is going to drill her from the toes to her head and.

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: And she`s not going to tell your wife. No, I really don`t think she`s going to tell her.

ANTHONY: The only one I really believe. I`ve said it before and I`ll keep saying it, her and my son have a different kind of communication that we -- even our son started telling us stuff after all this stuff happened.

ALLEN: Yes.

ANTHONY: Well, Casey told me about this guy. And she`s staying with this guy, and she`s been with this guy. And I`m like, oh man, oh man."

(END AUDIO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: And there we hear, our to Nikki Pierce with WDBO -- Nikki, the story George Anthony recounts about how his daughter presented a fake deposit slip for, like, $4,000, and it wasn`t real. The money had not deposited into the parents` account.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. They -- she apparently said something along the lines of having that 4,000 or $5,000 to Jose Baez, saying that she was going to present $1400 now, and the balance when she, quote, "gets out of this situation." But she simply didn`t have the money, according to George.

GRACE: You were just seeing and hearing little Caylee Anthony.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live. I want to go back to John Burress, San Francisco defense attorney.

You just said you have your clients get counseling, whether they need it or not?

JOHN BURRESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I didn`t mean whether they need it or not. Obviously, I don`t have them do counseling unless they do need it. There are two considerations there.

GRACE: But that`s what you said.

BURRESS: One, you look at whether -- I know. What you`re looking for is clinical, whether or not they really need treatment for help. And the second, you`re looking at forensic point of view, and whether or not there`s some kind of psychological disorder that may be necessary to be used in court.

GRACE: Oh, you mean, you get them evaluated whether they need it or not. OK, I get it.

BURRESS: Yes, get them evaluated, because there may be a psychological disorder in existence that you may want to use.

GRACE: Got it.

BURRESS: On the other hand, there may not be and just clinically they need help because they`re suffering.

GRACE: They need to be -- OK, I understand now. To Paul Batista.

BURRESS: And that`s not discoverable.

GRACE: To defense attorney and author of "Death`s Witness," Paul, what the caller was asking about was George and Cindy Anthony, should they have some type of help dealing with little Caylee`s disappearance or death?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, I can speak as a human.

GRACE: And dealing with the whole Casey situation.

BATISTA: Yes, I can speak as a human being, not as a lawyer.

GRACE: As a lawyer, do you tell your clients they need counseling?

BATISTA: Almost never, Nancy. I`m a lawyer, not a doctor. If I have a client who`s in a great deal of distress, I might say, hey, Mr. Smith, maybe it`s a good idea if you get counseling. But that`s not really a legal determination. I do -- I do it as a human being.

Here -- here, it may be appropriate. George Anthony is, obviously, in a great deal of anguish, and I might say to him, George, you might see someone.

GRACE: Everybody, we are playing for you tapes that have just been released in the past hour. Police interrogation tapes of grandfather, George Anthony. And boy, are they revealing. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY: On Sunday we had the prayer vigil type at our house. There were 15, 18 of not only a couple friends of my son`s that knows Casey and my son very well. We talked about so much stuff. What happened in the last two years? Guys, help us out. What`s going on?

Everyone kept on telling us, Casey`s a good mom, Casey, this, Casey would call her mom. Whenever she was out with Caylee, she always had to make sure Caylee was away from alcohol or someone smoking.

That`s what they told us. Now in the last two, two and a half months, these same friends that she`s had for -- since she`s been a little one. They`ve been over our house. They`ve been out of the picture.

ALLEN: Yes.

ANTHONY: Maybe she might call them, but then she tells lie upon lie upon something else to get them going in different directions.

I don`t like this freaking attorney that she has. I can tell you that right now from personal experience, I don`t like the guy. I told you that guy, I`ve become -- my daughter talked to someone when you guys initially incarcerated her.

And I guess whoever she talked to, you know, according to my daughter now, this is what Mr. Baez told me, or Jose, I`ll just call him that, says -- told, Jose Baez, I asked someone who`s a good attorney? And she has $5,000 supposedly or at least $1400 of it, to give to him as a retainer to assist.

We did not contact this man. We initially -- when he came to our -- called us, we thought the guy was a court appointed attorney. And you know, that`s what we though, because my daughter does not -- I don`t think she has any money.

My wife and I discussed this thing about the pool. My wife, when called me one day, after she was home from work, she called me, she said, George, did you shut the gate? I said, what gate? She said, the gate around the side. I said, Cindy, I always shut it. It`s always locked or I shut it, or make sure I have it shut.

She say, well, I came home and the gate`s wide open. And by the way, thanks for taking and leaving the ladder upon on the pool. I said, I didn`t go swimming. I`m not a real swimmer. I mean I go in it to cool off and I don`t really stay in it for periods of times. I didn`t put the ladder on it. I wouldn`t do that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, according to George Anthony, grandfather George, what theories have he and wife Cindy Anthony discussed about Caylee`s disappearance?

PIERCE: I think the one that has gotten the most discussion between the two of them is evidenced in the clip that you just played, that they had been discussing the facts that Caylee loved to swim, and sometimes, very rarely, but sometimes the ladder may be left out on the pool, so that it`s accessible to her.

And perhaps it was a tragic accident, and she drowned in that pool. That was the one that was discussed the most when they did entertain the notion.

GRACE: Yes. Back to John Burress and Paul Batista, our lawyers tonight. A tragic accident does not account for the online searches for how to make chloroform, do-it-yourself sedative, and a lot of other forensic evidence.

If there was an accident, John Burress, why not call 911?

BURRESS: Well, of course, that makes sense to do it. But, you know, I think that if there is an accident, she very well may have panicked, she may well have thought that no one is going to believe this, and therefore, she disassociated and turned to what the right thing to do was.

I mean, this is a lady who apparently had a lot of emotional problems that she was going through. I don`t think it`s inconceivable that this was an accident in terms of what happened.

GRACE: To the lines, Bonnie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Caylee seems to have a good relationship with her grandparents. Didn`t she -- didn`t the grandparents ever speak to Caylee about the babysitter or where she is doctoring during the day?

GRACE: Interesting question. To Natisha Lance, our producer at the search command post tonight -- Natisha, what do we know about whether little Caylee ever mentioned the nanny?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s actually something that`s has never come up. That`s a great question. But they have never mentioned anything about Zenaida Gonzalez. There`s no pictures of Zenaida Gonzalez. Cindy has said that she`s never met Zenaida Gonzalez. She never had to pick up Caylee from the babysitter Zenaida Gonzalez.

So that`s a great question one that hopefully will get answered at some point soon.

GRACE: What about it, Mark Williams?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Natisha, wholeheartedly, there has never been any discussion in the Anthony household about Zenaida. Again, no pictures, nothing like that. So she was just Zenaida -- this Zenaida person was just somebody out there in space, an imaginary person that allegedly Casey.

GRACE: So, of course, the child never mentioned it.

WILLIAMS: Yes. So.

GRACE: Everybody, quick break. We are taking your calls live.

Just released in the last hours, bombshell interrogation tapes of grandfather George Anthony we are playing for you tonight.

And as we go to break, at your request, new photos of the twins, celebrating their first birthday. I`ll post these on the Web tonight. This is the day of their birthday.

Oh, first toothbrush. There you have it. They liked it. Here we are after party. A serenade on her birthday and his birthday. This is our little music class at "Moon Soup."

The tee-shirt said, "It`s my birthday." Yes, I dressed her in a tutu. I never thought as long as I lived I would do that to a little girl. But I did it. And isn`t she beautiful? Oh, yes, we had to have bubbles. There he is.

Oh, there`s his grandfather, just before the party.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sounds of gunfire quickly turned this tranquil neighborhood in a chaotic crime scene. At around 8:00, police say Todd Cox, his fiancee and two children were walking their dog along Beverly Avenue when the shooter gunned Cox down.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Megan says she made eye contact with the driver who would become Todd`s killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a truck drove by, turned around a dead end and came back and pulled over behind us, and next thing I know, Todd pushed me down on to the ground, and I hear shots. And I -- looked over, and he was on the ground.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: A military man gunned down. No, not Iraq or Afghanistan, right here on U.S. soil. The worst part -- there is a worst part. He is gunned down in front of his fiancee and two little children as they`re out walking the family dog.

Let`s go straight to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter and now host of "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL" at 7:00 p.m. Eastern right here on HEADLINE NEWS.

Jane, what happened?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": Well, this is a horrific story. You see he is such a handsome Naval officer, a war hero, good family man. He is walking last April 24th at about 8:00 p.m., down a quiet tree-lined street, in a very safe neighborhood, with his fiancee. They had gotten engaged less than a month ago.

His child from a previous marriage, a 9-year-old girl, and her daughter from a previous marriage, an 11-year-old girl, are up a little further ahead with the family dog. Just a beautiful scene.

Well, suddenly, this pickup truck drives past them, goes to the dead end, and then doubles back, and then this man -- this mystery strange man, gets out of the car, and guns this Naval officer, this war hero down. Execution-style. When he tumbles to the ground, they keep pumping the bullets into him.

This individual -- now, this is not a robbery, he didn`t take anything, he didn`t really interact with anybody else, just gets back in his pickup truck, drives off. This is seven months ago, they have absolutely no suspects, they don`t know why this happened. They talked to all the lieutenant`s friends. Nobody had a grudge.

It was certainly not motivated by money, because the suspect diplomat take didn`t take anything. It is a total mystery, and the fiancee is tortured and devastated, as are the children.

And I saw the letter that she wrote to you, Nancy, and I`m really happy you`re doing this story, because that letter broke my heart.

GRACE: Everybody, I`ve got to tell you about the tip. There`s a $2,000 reward, and the tip line is 888-LOCK-U-UP, 888-562-5887. And joining me right now, everyone, we need your help.

Who killed a man who has served our country for so long, on the verge of starting a new life with his girlfriend of three years, just engaged, blending their families, out for a walk, in a good neighborhood.

With me right now, Megan McGuire, Lieutenant Todd Cox`s fiancee.

Miss McGuire, thank you for being with us.

MEGAN MCGUIRE, LT. TODD COX`S FIANCEE, DAD & NAVAL OFFICER SHOT IN COLD BLOOD: Thank you.

GRACE: When did you guys plan to get married?

MCGUIRE: Either this October or November. We were going to do it this fall.

GRACE: And I understand it was going to be an outside ceremony with all of your blended family there together?

MCGUIRE: That`s correct.

GRACE: And you had just gotten your engagement ring, right here in the diamond district in Manhattan and were so excited you took the wrong train home.

MCGUIRE: We did.

GRACE: Megan, what has your life been like since this incident, and how are the little girls?

MCGUIRE: It`s been a nightmare. The kids are doing -- they`re doing well. All of them are in counseling. Just trying to move forward with our lives.

GRACE: You know, it`s hard enough when violent crime touches your life, but at such a young age, 9 and 11? What can you remember about that night? What do you remember about the shooter?

MCGUIRE: I just looked at him briefly, as he passed us, driving down the street. Just a black male. I believe he had on a white tee shirt and blue jeans. I really saw him get out of the truck out of my peripheral vision, and before I knew it, Todd had pushed me down on the ground, and the shots started. So I didn`t really get a very -- you know, very long look at him.

GRACE: What about the truck? What do you recall about the truck? What can you tell us about that?

MCGUIRE: It was a mid `90s model Ford F150. It was white, two-toned with green. So the base of the truck was white with green stripes. Just an older, kind of beat-up work-type truck.

GRACE: Did he say anything? Were any words exchanged?

MCGUIRE: No, he didn`t say a word.

GRACE: What did you do as soon as he was shot? What did you do?

MCGUIRE: I was -- I was laying on the ground, and I had my arms over my head. Basically, once I realized what was happening, really, I just laid there and waited to get shot myself. I thought for sure that he was going to shoot me, too.

And then as soon as the shots stopped, I heard the truck start, and the truck was leaving, and I looked over.

GRACE: Everyone, Megan, hold on one moment. We`re going to break. She is going to join us afterwards, and we`re going to give you the tip line again.

But right now, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

WYNTON MARSALIS, MUSICIAN: The most essential thing for the development of kids are those things that they do that`s not school-related. Started this group (INAUDIBLE), a talent show at a young age. You can do whatever you put your mind to it.

I`m Wynton Marsalis and my hero uses jazz music to inspire the minds and souls of young folks.

DAVEY YARBOROUGH, CHAMPIONING CHILDREN: Back in the `80s one of my visual arts students was killed due to his involvement with drug trafficking. To have an element on the streets take a student that was so bright and so promising was a trigger for me to open a music (INAUDIBLE) program to take young people and nurture them on their time.

One, 2, and -- I really wanted to be able to see the students develop. We have a mentoring system of professional artists. Sometimes I wonder am I really getting through? When I see that light go on in the students` face, I can wake up tomorrow and do it again.

MARSALIS: He is the next step of heroic actions. He sacrifices. He actually is fulfilling himself. The students, they all admire him and look up to him. And they love him.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com.

CNN Heroes is sponsored by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The murder weapon used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew reportedly belonged to Hudson`s brother Jason. Jason Hudson allegedly owned a gun identical to the .45 caliber pistol used in the murders.

GRACE: What can you tell me about the weapon, Michael Sapraicone?

MICHAEL SAPRAICONE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: It`s a killer`s gun, it`s an assassin`s gun. It`s often used by drug dealers and criminals.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An attorney hired by tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team is reportedly asking prosecutors to show Anthony some mercy and not seek the death penalty.

GRACE: They actually state this death did occur? It was almost certainly due to an unwitting overdose of sedative, and they allude to chloroform?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. They say it was almost certainly a tragic accident.

GRACE: There are not bonuses based on your client`s case.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Nobody`s saying that. But -- hold on.

GRACE: No, you just said that, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: I said that.

GRACE: Yes, you did.

NEJAME: If you`ll allow me to finish, I don`t know what you`re afraid of hearing. If you`d allow me to finish, I`ll tell you.

GRACE: I`d like to hear the truth.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The check went to you show and you all mail that to us, and we opened that this morning and it was a check from one of your viewers that said, please, this donation is for Texas Equusearch for Caylee Anthony`s search. And it is in honor of your children`s birthdays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to remind you the tip line on that Virginia story is 888- LOCK-U-UP. We`re also putting the information on our Web site, CNN.com/Nancygrace.

Let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant Glen Martinez, 31, Boulder, Colorado, killed Iraq on a second tour. Highly decorated. An Ottawa University grad. A smile lit up a room, loved baseball, football, wrestling, classical music, and the rock band the Eagles.

Leaves behind parents Ron and Carol, sister Laurie, widow Melissa, a Marine sergeant also killed in Iraq.

Glen Martinez, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you. Good night from the New York control room, there they are, Brett and Rosie.

And tonight, good night from Georgia and Alabama friends of the show, Derrick, happy birthday, Kelly and Donna.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/07/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Caylee Search Divers Find Bag With Toys, Bones

Aired November 13, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 21 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, police, FBI swarm a local park after a dive team announces the discovery of tiny bones and a bag of toys discarded in a nearby river, the dive team spending hours combing murky alligator- infested waters. Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony immediately insist it was all planted there at the bottom of the Econ River. When tot mom sees the coverage on TV from behind bars, she registers no emotion whatsoever, calmly going back to her private cell. What does that mean?

Mom Casey still refusing to cooperate with police, but taking the time to order off a menu of high-end snacks like crab meat, shrimp cocktail, make-up, shoes, lingerie, hair and skin products, all from her private jail cell, tot mom lounging, sleeping, reading, snacking, doing nothing to help find Caylee. And another bombshell. Has there been another alleged sighting of Caylee? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Caylee went to Blanchard Park (INAUDIBLE) walking around the lake. She liked to just (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There may be a break in the disappearance of Caylee Anthony. It`s a swampy river basin area where police have found what appeared to be possibly the remains of little Caylee Anthony. They found a plastic bag with toys and small bones that`s been weighed down by bricks. Inside the bag, there were bones the size of fingers. And they also found a shamrock, and the shamrock is significant because it was Casey Anthony`s favorite symbol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just a matter of a handful of miles, and we do know from Casey Anthony`s cell phone records, the cell phone pings, that during the time of Caylee`s disappearance that the investigators are focusing on, she was here in this park.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The last time I know that she was there was the end of May.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, expert dive teams combing the murky waters of a local river.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I call Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service. I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. So I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They discovered a stuffed (ph) shamrock first under a tarp of some sort that turned out to be part of a garbage bag and some bricks weighing down that garbage back, other baby toys, and indeed bones, small bones that looked to be finger or toe bones.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve taken her three times myself this year. The last time that I noticed she went with someone other than myself was the end of May.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey had a tattoo of a shamrock. There was a shamrock sticker on her car, and we do know that Caylee had a shamrock-type toy. That is making people very concerned in this area, and of course, the fragments of the bones and garbage bag. We do know parts of a garbage bag were also found in Casey`s trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: She liked to go on a walk, a big trail at Jay Blanchard Park.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, you were there all day at the dive. Tell me what happened.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: I was there all day. At 2:00 PM today in Blanchard Park, a possible break in the case. Divers that were organized by Leonard Padilla, they found what looked to be small bones, finger bones and toe bones. And that`s what they said they were, and to my layperson eyes, they certainly looked like bones to me.

They also found pieces of a trash bag that had been weighted down with bricks and cement, along with baby toys, one of them a shamrock, one of them some sort of a stuffed figure.

What followed after that was a media frenzy, hundreds of people showing up at that area, including the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office, who reviewed the evidence extensively. Now the Orange County`s sheriff`s office just a couple of hours ago came out and said nothing of evidentiary value was found, and that those weren`t even bones.

But the divers -- I got to say, this is not their first rodeo. They`ve been around, and they said they were bones, and that`s why they called out the police officers. Now, Leonard Padilla has been asked to take a polygraph test, to top it all off, by Orange County`s sheriff`s office because they were upset that the media was there first instead of the sheriff`s office.

GRACE: I want to go straight to Todd Bosinski. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Divers in the murky waters of the local Econ River pull up what look to be -- inside a plastic bag, what look to be tiny bones and toys.

Straight out to Todd Bosinski, the owner of Black Water Divers. He`s conducting the search for Caylee. You know, Todd, as a fellow diver, it is very difficult in -- number one, rivers to start with, because it`s incredibly murky. There`s a lot of debris at the bottom, silt at the bottom that comes up off the bottom of the river. Tell me the circumstances of your search. What was it like in the Econ today?

TODD BOSINSKI, BLACK WATER DIVERS: Well, just to give you a quick idea, if you go into a cave, to the deepest part of the cave and shut off all your lights...

GRACE: Oh!

BOSINSKI: ... that`s pretty much what we were dealing with. Down at the bottom...

GRACE: Man, I hate cave diving. Don`t tell me that, you can`t see a thing.

BOSINSKI: You can`t see a thing. Down at the bottom of the river, the conditions were -- you have that real soft silt sediment. It was about four feet in depth. And we`re just basically taking our arms and pushing them down as best as we could. We had a gentleman drop off a couple of experimental things, some screens and some drag nets, and that assisted us in covering a larger area faster.

And that`s where we soon uncovered what appeared to be bones. I`m not a forensic scientist, so I can`t tell you for sure. Just from the past, they look like bones.

GRACE: Todd Bosinski is joining us. He is the owner of Black Water Divers. He is conducting the search, leading the search under water for little Caylee. Todd, you stated that you are feeling your way along the river bottom. You can`t see anything. You have to go by sense of touch?

BOSINSKI: Yes, ma`am. Yes. It`s all by touch. And if -- see, we can`t really tell if it`s a bone or if it`s a piece of wood, if it`s a piece of metal.

GRACE: Until you bring it up.

BOSINSKI: Until we bring it up. And that`s the whole purpose of having these drag nets. If you give me one second, I`ll grab it.

GRACE: OK. And I want to find out what`s the current. Is there any current in the Econ River?

BOSINSKI: It`s very slight. The current is very slight. There is some, but nothing that`s really affecting the search.

GRACE: OK. Tell me about your drag net you`ve got with you.

BOSINSKI: OK. This is a drag net from a local person that produces these right around the corner, and he dropped these off to us this morning to assist. And I`ll tell you, they came in really, really handy. And basically...

GRACE: How does it work?

BOSINSKI: Basically, what you do is you take it, you got the one side that`s a floater, and the other side is weighted down. And you take it and you sift it through the sand and you close it up like a sandwich or a taco and bring it up to the surface.

GRACE: So you`re going along the entire bottom of the riverbed. Everyone, all day today, the search under water for remains of little Caylee has been going down at a local river, the Econ River, led by bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. As you recall, Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, there in Orlando, in fact, at Blanchard Park, a point of interest. Leonard Padilla, why did you isolate this particular part of the river?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it`s across from the playground where Lisa (ph) with Texas Equusearch had taken a picture on a tree of a cross. And on that cross were beads, and those beads were identified by Tracy (ph), who stayed with Casey for the 10 days we had her out on bail. And she had -- the night before, she had drawn (ph) them. And then we came back out here on Sunday and we found not one but two beads on two consecutive days, and they matched the beads that she said.

So then we went and spent two days reading reports and things of that nature and came up with the mention of the park eight times, eight distinctive times. You heard the one time there. And the most significant one is where she changed her story from losing her child at the apartments to having come out here and having Zenaida take her away here at the park. And what we thought that she was setting up an alibi as to why she lost the child at the park, and therefore, Zenaida came away with the child. But that was to where they found the child dead here, she could always say, Well, that`s where Zenaida took her away from me.

GRACE: Yes, and I told you that...

PADILLA: So this is where we`re concentrating...

GRACE: Yes, and she can say I`ve been telling you that all along. I tried to tell you about Jay Blanchard Park.

PADILLA: Correct.

GRACE: Got it. I understand your thinking. To Bethany Marshall. Padilla is correct, she did keep mentioning over and over under a lot of different circumstances this Jay Blanchard Park.

Everybody, we`re showing you footage of it right now. Padilla joined earlier with Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch in the search for little Caylee.

Why would she continue mentioning Jay Blanchard Park? When people are pathological liars and they keep weaving the same fact in over and over, it does raise a red flag, yes?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, sometimes what they mention is what`s most deliciously satisfying to them. So if she killed her child and drowned her in the river there, the park, the park, the park, that`s where this experience happened which might have been very gratifying her, much like going to rent a movie about kidnap and murder the same day her child goes missing.

Why? It`s a reliving and a glorification of the act. So I would be sifting through her language, just like these heroes, these divers, sift through the river, looking for those words, just like Padilla is looking for. Hey, it`s like Scott Peterson went he went and looked over the bay or O.J. Simpson writing, "If I did It." There`s a revisiting of the moment in the murders, both their language and in their acts and in their reminiscing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you really want to delve into the mind of Casey, you`d have to dig real deep into some shrink`s ugly book because she is an ugly-minded little person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Divers searching for Caylee Anthony found a bag with toys. It was in a lake today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The bag was taken away as possible evidence. Divers were searching the Little Econ River near Blanchard Park in Orlando. It`s an area of interest because cell phone pings show that Caylee`s mother, Casey Anthony, was in the area during the time that Caylee disappeared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whereabouts in the park did she like the best?

CASEY ANTHONY: The playground. She liked to just (INAUDIBLE) around (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was the last time she was there?

CASEY ANTHONY: I took her in April a couple times.

Every day, I`ve been beating myself up about this, every single day...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... not knowing where to go, what to do, running in circles literally. It`s all I can do, at this point.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very, very difficult to understand why Casey Anthony will not come clean and not help the investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: When I asked her why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED).

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Today divers searching the murky waters of the Econ River in the search for little Caylee.

Back to Todd Bosinski, the owner of Black Water Divers, conducting the underwater search. Are there actually alligators in that river?

BOSINSKI: Oh, yes, within yards of us. I`m talking 10 to 15, 25 feet from us, anywhere from the range of little babies up to -- we just saw a 12-footer this morning, and throughout the afternoon.

GRACE: You know those things can run, right? They can run.

BOSINSKI: Yes. .

GRACE: I have dived with sharks but never alligators. That`s a whole different thing. Explain to me how you go about diving with alligators in the vicinity.

BOSINSKI: Gators are generally will not attack under water. We had a guy who...

GRACE: Generally? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa~! Operative word, generally. You mean there are exceptions?

BOSINSKI: I`m sure there are exceptions. We have -- all the gators that I have come in contact with under water, which is a daily basis or a weekly basis, just depending on what the weather is, they`ll come up and they`ll nub you in the legs, they`ll hit you in the back, slap you with their tail a little bit. But as far as I know, and from my research on gators, the gators will not actually physically attack you under water.

GRACE: Is it because they cannot physically attack under water?

BOSINSKI: I don`t think it`s because they can`t physically. I think it`s something to do with when they open their mouth, there`s a possibility of that little flap in the back of their mouth, when they`re forced to go grab their prey, the water rushes in.

GRACE: OK. Because there has to be a physical impossibility for them to attack under water if they`re right there nudging your leg and they don`t bite.

BOSINSKI: It`s probably due to the fact that...

GRACE: Got it.

BOSINSKI: ... they know if they open the water -- or open their mouth under water, they could drown.

GRACE: What was your first reaction when -- was it you or one of your divers that discovered this?

BOSINSKI: Discovered the -- discovered what?

GRACE: The bone-like pieces you found.

BOSINSKI: I was actually the initial diver who found the garbage bag, which was underneath the piece of concrete that had that little what we assumed to be a clover, a four-leafed clover. Come to find out once the FBI got here and forensics teams got here, they broke it apart and it came to be a small Gumby, Gumby magnet.

GRACE: But it was a child`s toy, but you`re saying it was in a garbage bag weighted down with a cement block?

BOSINSKI: Yes, ma`am. The garbage bag was ripped -- when I found it down underneath the silt, from what I could tell and by what I could feel, the garbage bag was partially closed. And as I pulled it up, I didn`t realize there was concrete in it. And as I got it up to the surface, I realized that there was actually something weighing in it, and I tried to do the best I could to preserve it. But in these type of conditions it`s extremely -- extremely hard to be able to control everything...

GRACE: Well, you can`t see.

BOSINSKI: ... especially when you`re only using one of your senses.

GRACE: You can`t see what you`re doing.

BOSINSKI: Exactly.

GRACE: With me Todd Bosinski, owner of Black Water Divers.

We are taking your calls. Out to Sarah in Canada. Hi, Sarah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a two-part question. I wanted to know if the fact that the bones were with the toys -- could that indicate significance of the whodunnit? I mean, it would be random for just a maniac to do something like that, bury the child with toys.

GRACE: True.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also, can the grandparents can be called to identify whether or not they recognize these days as little Caylee`s?

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Tell me about the toy.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: What I saw were very small toys in a plastic bag. And I don`t think investigators believe they have any connection whatsoever. They left them with the divers and they did not, you know, take them along with -- well, they did take the -- they were actually rocks. What they thought were bones were actually two rocks. One was smaller than the other. I saw the larger one. It was sort of diamond- shaped. They did take those as found properties, the sheriff`s office called it. But again, they were saying it had nothing to do with (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: No connection with Caylee. I want to go to Tim Miller, the president of Texas Equusearch. Had you already scanned with sidescan sonar this area?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Nancy, I can only shake my head. This is so crazy. You know...

GRACE: So was that a yes or a no? Did you already sidescan it?

MILLER: I scanned that thing two times. And this is just exactly the way Leonard told me he was going write the script on Sunday. And if his experts can`t determine stones from bones, you need to get different divers. I just can`t even believe what`s going on.

GRACE: Well, these are volunteers, Tim Miller. I mean, they are not experts, archaeological or anthropological experts.

MILLER: Well, Nancy -- Nancy...

GRACE: They`re people out there volunteering. Of course they don`t know the difference.

MILLER: Nancy, Nancy, Nancy, stop right now. You said in the beginning the expert divers. I`m going to tell you, if you`re an expert diver, you can determine stones from bones.

GRACE: Well, I consider myself to be an expert diver because I`ve dived over a hundred times, but I may not know the difference of something I pull up off the bottom of the river.

MILLER: I don`t think you would call the media first before you call law enforcement to put on a damn circus show. If you thought it was truly that, why wouldn`t -- I know you, Nancy Grace. You would call the police first if you think you saw something.

GRACE: So does this mean you did search the river with sidescan sonar?

MILLER: Nancy, I knew on Saturday that Leonard Padilla was going do this dive. I put somebody in that water with sonar for three-and-a-half hours Sunday morning. They got done scanning that, said they didn`t find anything. I personally got in that water myself with the sonar. I eliminated that. When I pulled that boat on the water, Leonard Padilla was standing on the bank and said, Tim, I need your divers. I said, Leonard, we`re not diving. I said, I can tell you where tires are, where a wheelbarrow frame is, where different things are at in there. I said, Leonard, please...

GRACE: Understood.

MILLER: ... don`t do this.

GRACE: So you did do sidescan sonar.

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks. Weigh in, Mike.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, you know, if Tim said he went and did sidescan sonar and he was able to pick up these anomalies, you know, then that would have been good enough for me, but you know, Leonard felt the need to get these divers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You don`t have my permission. You know, I`m on TV every night (INAUDIBLE)

I have not a problem with him being out here. I have a problem with him having a memorial service for Caylee tomorrow. that`s my problem. You`d have a problem with it, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve got a tip right now in Coral Springs, Florida, that Caylee is alive. What`s going on at the park? You know, I`m told that the authorities are coming down. We`re going let them do their job, and whenever they come to us and tell us they have something concrete, then we`ll take that. But right now, we`re focusing on this tip that just came in just moments ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, what was Casey Anthony`s reaction behind bars? I understand she was actually watching the coverage of the dive search and the apparent discovery of bones.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Right. And this was in the initial stages, when it didn`t come out yet that this was all a hoax and that it wasn`t actually bones that were found. The jail...

GRACE: I don`t know that I would call it a hoax, Drew Petrimoulx. I think that I would call it the discovery of something unrelated to the case, as it turns out.

PETRIMOULX: OK. We can put it that way. But she saw the early stages of the investigation today, and she saw that -- you know, that they -- it wasn`t determined yet that this was false, and she basically just turned around, went back into her cell with no reaction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She`s coming home. She`s leading you to a place but she`s not telling me to the right -- exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.

My daughter may have some mistruths out there or half-truths, but she is not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots that stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

ANTHONY: The same dogs that cleared our hour cleared them. There`s no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child. She`s lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead. We still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. I`ve got a tip right now in Coral Springs, Florida that Caylee is alive. Until I hear it from the authorities, it`s just -- it is what it is, it`s a bag of whatever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: George and Cindy Anthony joining us tomorrow night right here. There you hear Casey Anthony`s biggest defender, her mother, today before these items found by Padilla`s team at the bottom of the Econ River were determined to be unrelated to Caylee`s disappearance.

Their first reaction was it was planted.

Speaking of reactions, according to Drew Petrimoulx with WBDO, Casey Anthony sees the coverage of possible bones of her daughter found at the bottom of the river, has no reaction, turns around and goes back to her cell.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor, Atlanta, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Richard Herman, defense attorney, New York.

Richard Herman, if I were looking for John David or Lucy, and I see that on the TV I would be screaming to turn up the volume to get every last detail. Why did she go back to her private cell?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because she knows that`s not where her daughter is, Nancy. It`s the -- I.

GRACE: So she does know where her daughter`s buried?

HERMAN: No, she knows she`s not there in that lake there. Listen.

GRACE: Why -- how would she know that if she doesn`t know where she is?

HERMAN: She gave the daughter away to someone, Nancy.

GRACE: Then how does she know that someone didn`t kill Caylee?

HERMAN: Because this is a circus by Padilla. I respect Tim Miller.

GRACE: There you go.

HERMAN: He calls this the Padilla circus and old bozo.

Here`s a breaking news, they want him to take an FBI lie detector. He better lawyer up right now because federal obstruction brings five years, Lenny. Five years.

GRACE: Richard, once again, you`ve done an artful job of avoiding the question.

Eleanor, please weigh in.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I agree. I can`t believe a defense attorney would say that his potential client didn`t shed a tear because she knew the body wasn`t there, because you know what, Nancy? She probably does know where the body is.

GRACE: And if she had been -- Caylee had been kidnapped by the nanny, like she said right there at that park, Jay Blanchard Park, where they are looking, Padilla`s looking, how do we know that that nanny didn`t kill the little girl? We don`t know that.

Why, Peter Odom? How do you spin that in front of a your that she just turn around and marched back to her cell, not interested at all in the possible discovery of her daughter`s bones?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ve got to tell you, Nancy. I`m with Richard on this one. This search was a circus perpetrated by Leonard Padilla.

GRACE: No. No. If you can just answer the question.

ODOM: The answer is there`s no other way to characterize it but that she has guilty knowledge, Nancy. She knows exactly where that body is.

GRACE: At least, finally, a straight answer. Peter, I respect that. Of course, you could never say that in front of a jury in your line of business but at least you`ve said the truth tonight.

ODOM: But I`ve said on this show.

GRACE: Padilla, you want to answer all these accusations?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION FROM DIVE TEAM SITE: I don`t think they even merit an answer. We`re out here with these divers that are Black Water divers. Our own diver was not experienced enough. We were going pull out when this gentleman called me Wednesday.

We decided to go ahead and go to work with them because they are experienced Black Water divers. Our guy is not. As far as attorneys that sit there and criticize, you know, our motives and our actions.

GRACE: I don`t see them out searching.

PADILLA: No, I don`t think so and they`re not going to, but the -- situation when you`re talking about these divers that are out here in that murkiness, and the alligators, you see the alligators out there.

You know, I won`t even get within 25 feet of the water line and neither will Rob Dick, and these guys are out right there and you see the alligator just laying there 25 feet from Todd and I`m -- like starting to feel like, no, this is a bad idea. Let`s get him out of there and they`re saying, no, don`t worry about it, Todd knows what he`s doing.

And then you have somebody saying that this is a circus. Well, you know, I just -- I don`t think they have an understanding. I`d buy their airplane ticket down here so that they can be here with us tomorrow and the next day. And they could see exactly what we`re doing.

GRACE: Yes, let them get down at the bottom of the Econ River and look around for a while.

PADILLA: Yes.

GRACE: Let them do what Tim Miller does and his search crews every day all over the country. People that are throwing stones at the two of you, you know what, they`re not doing anything except armchair quarterbacking. So you take whatever they say with a box of salt, to both you and Tim Miller.

Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, also a consultant on the Anthony defense team. How long does it take, Kobe, to determine -- to test and determine whether bone is animal or human?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, a physical anthropologist, just by visual inspection, would probably be able to identify human versus animal.

If they cannot, they`ve got to do mitochondrial DNA and clearly determine there if it`s human or not. That could be a matter of a couple of days, but I think this was very rapid, visual inspection. No problem.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Liz in Florida. Hi, Liz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is have any reputable psychics been brought into this case to help find Caylee or her body?

GRACE: What about it, Nikki Pierce with WDBO?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, there was one psychic that I believe actually appeared on your show. She also has some cadaver dogs with her along with that psychic.

GRACE: St. James.

PIERCE: Yes, Gail St. James and along with that psychic there have been thousands of tips called in. I do know that the Orange County Sheriff`s Office does investigate tips that they call credible but I don`t know exactly what the criteria would be.

GRACE: And St. James, Nikki, apparently, brought with her a whole team of psychics that felt they had had visions or vibrations or feelings, dreams, whatever they have, and we`re going on those with cadaver dogs.

Again, you know, you may want to throw a stone at them because you don`t believe in them, at least they`re out there with dogs searching.

Back to the lines. Tracy in Wisconsin, hi, Tracy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, thanks for keeping the story on the front line and hopefully.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . we`ll get some justice for Caylee.

GRACE: I pray.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m wondering, when Equusearch pulled out, where did they go and when are they going to be coming back, and then why do they want Padilla to take a lie detector test?

GRACE: Very quickly, you know, Texas Equusearch, I believe, went down to look for Natalee, I believe it was eight separate times. They pulled out -- I`m going to go to Tim Miller on this -- because of the torrential flooding rains in Florida to start with and they`d come back when they thought they could do some good.

Tim Miller, where did you guys go?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: In this search we did exactly what the sheriff`s department wanted us to do. We completed the areas that would be flooded.

GRACE: Extensive areas.

MILLER: Extensive areas. Many, many distractions. The search continues for Caylee every weekend to a smaller scale. We`re not going anywhere. When we`re going to go back there on a bigger scale, we`ll certainly be there with the best resources that we`ve got and.

GRACE: What is your Web site? What is your Web site, Tim Miller?

MILLER: TXEQ.org.

GRACE: T-X-E-Q-U?

MILLER: No. T-X-E-Q-O-R-G.

GRACE: Got it.

With me the president of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. They covered about 25 square miles with over 2,000 volunteers this past weekend.

Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento who originally put up Casey Anthony`s first $500,000 bail before he came off the bond, now conducting under water dive searches for the little girl.

Todd Bosinski is with us, the owner of Black Water Divers. At the end of day, how do you feel the search went?

TODD BOSINSKI, OWNER, BLACK WATER DIVERS, CONDUCTING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: I think it went fantastic. Honestly, we`re not doing anything but help -- trying to help.

You know, I hear the president of Equusearch over here stating that he was out here with sonar and all this other stuff. One of the questions I have for him, has he been trained with sonar? Does he know what type of sonar equipment he was using? Was it recorded, and if it was.

GRACE: Well, I can answer that for you. I can answer that for you very quickly. Yes, he`s been trained. He`s done five-scan sonar with success all over the country.

Very quickly to Bethany Marshall. Bethany, I want to go to you about her reaction behind bars. I am intrigued, and I think this is going to come up in trial. No reaction when she saw the possibility Caylee`s bone has been discovered.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, you know, when someone commits what we call (INAUDIBLE) homicide, what that means is there is a buildup of such hatred, envy, rage, bitterness towards another human being. They don`t even want that human being on the face of the planet.

What happens when that person`s gone? There`s tremendous relief and actually it`s been documented that this relief phase can last as much as six months to two years and it can either be a flattening of affects or partying, you know, literally, dancing on the other person`s grave.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We`ve been following reports today that a bag of toys and possibly bones was found during a search for missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

This search in particular organized by bounty hunter Leonard Padilla.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Padilla has been requested by the Orange County`s sheriff`s office to participate in a polygraph and that will be conducted by the board -- by the FBI.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We asked California bounty hunter Leonard Padilla whether he saw the items that were supposedly bones and he, obviously, was trying to distance himself from it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were they really, in fact, bones here or was it.

PADILLA: I don`t know. I haven`t seen any yet, it`s because they`re over there and I`m over here. And.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who called law enforcement?

PADILLA: The divers thought it was important enough to call.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. First, back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What can you tell me about an alleged sighting of Caylee? I want to hear about that.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That came from Cindy Anthony today when she was being questioned about this bag that was found. The whole time she maintained that Caylee is as still alive saying she even knows of a sighting that happened down in South Florida, Coral Springs area, and she said she was spotted with a middle-aged man at a McDonald`s down there.

GRACE: And what happened? Was it investigated?

PETRIMOULX: I`m not sure. She`s basically saying that -- I think if it was investigated it would have to have been her own private investigators. I don`t if it was something that the sheriff`s office did, though.

GRACE: You`re seeing a photo taken of an alleged sighting of Caylee. Take a look. This turned out not to be Caylee. There she is. Let`s remove the chyrons at the bottom of the screen so we can see the full photo of the sighting. There you go. That`s the sighting. One of the sightings. There have been several, Nashville, Tennessee, Georgia, Orlando, Daytona Florida, two sightings there, Coral Springs, the most recent.

To Nikki Pierce, do we know whether this sighting of little Caylee with a man at McDonald`s was investigated by police?

PIERCE: It was investigated by police and they found it to not be a credible tip. They found that it was not indeed Caylee.

GRACE: Then there was the sighting, Kathi Belich, on the AirTran flight from Florida to Atlanta to Puerto Rico.

Kathi Belich joining us from WFTV. Was that sighting investigated?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That sighting was investigated. I believe there were two children on that flight, one was much younger than Caylee and another older than Caylee. It was thoroughly investigated. They got the flight manifest from the flights and it turned out not to be her.

GRACE: So all of these alleged sightings, Kathi Belich, have been investigated, correct?

BELICH: As far as we know, everyone has been investigated and everyone has been ruled out at that point.

GRACE: Is that true, Nikki Pierce with WDBO?

PIERCE: That`s true. As far as we know, they`ve all been investigated and all been ruled out.

GRACE: Do we know any circumstances around these alleged sightings at McDonald`s in Coral Springs?

PIERCE: Besides the fact that it has also been ruled out and.

GRACE: Yes.

PIERCE: . she appeared in a McDonald`s, no, not really.

GRACE: I guess that`s all we need to know is they investigated it and it`s been ruled out.

Everybody, taking your calls, to Mary in Florida. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You are truly a blessing for everybody.

GRACE: Thank you for saying that. You need to tell that to the defense bar. I don`t think they believe you.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do. I have a question and a quick comment. My question is to Tim Miller, why he will not go ahead and send divers down. And my comment is I`ve been following this case the whole time and we should be thankful for everybody who has done everything and stop turning noses at the people who are out there every day.

This isn`t a competition, you know? This is truly a blessing.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, I understand you didn`t send divers down because you had already side scan sonared it several times.

MILLER: Several times, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

MILLER: And I`m good at that.

GRACE: And that`s no easy thing.

MILLER: It`s no easy thing. And you know what, if you -- if that water is so murky you`re not going to see an alligator 20 feet away so I question divers, but, you know, the reason I`m not sending divers down is that I told Leonard on Sunday, Leonard, don`t do this.

Leonard told me personally and I`m going to sit here and tell you what he told me. When I got doing the sonar work, pulled the boat up to shore, Leonard said, Tim, I need your divers, I need your divers.

GRACE: You told me that.

MILLER: I said, Leonard, there`s nothing there. Leonard told me, Tim, you don`t realize the opportunity we`re missing. He gave me the story about why he thought that. He said the body is right there. He said, Tim, think about it, just think about it, we`ll have that cameras be -- we`ll have your divers in there, TV cameras all around.

Tim Miller`s holding Caylee`s skull. Think how much money we can make, Tim. Exactly what happened today is what Leonard told us on Sunday and we are doing the statement.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, do you want to respond to that?

MILLER: The script went exactly as he said.

GRACE: Leonard, do you want to respond to that?

MILLER: It`s not a circus. I asked Leonard.

PADILLA: I`d like to respond.

MILLER: . to be at the lake of Texas.

GRACE: I`d like too hear Leonard respond to that. Go ahead, Leonard.

PADILLA: I begged Tim to send his divers down because we only had one and I asked him on Sunday, I even went back by his headquarters and asked him, please, Tim, we can`t pass up this opportunity if you`ve got the divers, and he told me -- the last thing he told me Sunday was OK, I`ll get them out there tomorrow morning.

Well, when tomorrow morning came, we had our two divers and then we decided to go ahead and send in the two divers, but I did, I begged him. I did everything I could short of.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: . paying him.

GRACE: Understood.

PADILLA: . to send the divers down.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane. I think I`ve got Diane in Florida. Hi, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I`ve watched the coverage all afternoon, the live coverage from here, from outside of Orlando, and the lead detective, one of the lead detectives arrived at the scene and one of the FBI agents arrived.

They were there less than 15 minutes, the lead detective shook his head and said, this is, you know, it doesn`t relate to the case. I don`t even understand how they can do that.

GRACE: What about it, Mike Brooks? How could so quickly rule it out, especially the little toys?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes, I -- you know, Nancy, they know. They have been working this. They know from leads. They have been in the house. They`ve done search warrants. They know what`s human bone probably looks like because they are homicide investigator and that`s what the specialize it.

And you know, if you got the FBI and the Orange County there with the experience, both of those departments, they say it`s not related.

GRACE: You know, would seen it. They would at least take it and look at it.

BROOKS: Well, if it`s not related to it, if it`s not anything.

GRACE: Well, how would you know that, especially the toys?

BROOKS: Well, they probably know what kind of toys were in the house, what kind of toys did she had -- had played with.

GRACE: OK. All right, whatever.

BROOKS: I`m telling you, Nancy.

GRACE: Out to the lines. I hear you.

BROOKS: All right.

GRACE: Jennifer in Texas. Hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: What`s your question, dear? I`m good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just love your babies, they`re so cute.

GRACE: Thank you, thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have a question.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Casey goes to trial, what evidence do they need to make sure that woman gets the death penalty?

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, what about it?

DIXON: Aggravating circumstances and the biggest one is that she`s the child under the age of 12.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Peter Odom, Richard Herman -- to you, Richard, I still don`t get why when Casey Anthony heard the coverage that her daughter`s bones have been discovered, she goes back to her room.

HERMAN: Because she knew this was an orchestrated event by bozo media-whore Padilla. That`s why.

GRACE: Oh excuse me, I believe you are on the air waves right now as well, so pot, don`t call the kettle black.

What about it, Odom?

HERMAN: Hey, I`m not hogging all the media coverage.

GRACE: Uh-huh.

ODOM: Nancy, she`s been play-acting forever. But I still have to contend she knows where the body is buried. And she knows it wasn`t buried there and that`s why she didn`t react.

GRACE: Well, she`s not hiring you for the defense team.

Eleanor?

DIXON: Well, it`s a good thing she`s not hiring these two because they`d be my favorite jury members right now, Nancy.

ODOM: Oh yes, OK. Beautiful.

DIXON: And I think we all know why she went back and didn`t shed a tear.

HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, we defense lawyers love you. That`s why we do the show.

GRACE: Padilla, Padilla, why are they -- is somebody asking you to take a poly?

PADILLA: Well, I think it`s to make sure that I didn`t have anything to do with planting evidence and as I`ve told the media this afternoon out here, Lee, Cindy and George, obviously, don`t want to take a polygraph. I have no problem with it. Bozo, media whore, whatever you want to call it, I have no problem with a polygraph.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Elizabeth in Washington. Hi, Elizabeth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hello?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. Thank you for being a good role model, first.

GRACE: Oh lord, please don`t say that. What`s your question? Hurry, hurry, hurry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My question is, Caylee was allegedly killed on June 15th and I would assume she would have been placed into the car at that point. Why on June 24th did George not smell that smell? And where would Casey possibly put the body when she came back with those gas cans, because it was reported George did get to the trunk?

GRACE: You want to tackle that one, Leonard Padilla?

PADILLA: Yes. Here`s what happened.

GRACE: Hurry.

PADILLA: She was gone in the wee hours -- excuse me?

GRACE: Hurry.

PADILLA: You mean hurry. 16th, on the 24th, the body has been packaged. When she went to the house on the 18th, she packaged it. There was only 2 1/2 days of decomposition in the trunk. After that the body was packaged and didn`t rip open until the 25th.

GRACE: Let`s remember Army Specialist Alex Gonzalez, 21, Mission, Texas, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Loved baseball, football, golf, dreamed of being a cop.

Leaves behind parents, Alfredo and Dahlia, three sisters and doggie Lucky.

Alex Gonzalez, American hero.

Thank you to our guests and to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/13/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Car Stills Smells of Decomposition

Aired November 14, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 21 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. As we go to air, police confirm, after four long months, the horrible smell of human decomposition still at this hour in mom Casey`s car, the scent of death so bad, investigators say they can still smell it without even opening the car door. The stunning announcement comes as the defense team finally brings in their own forensic expert to examine mom Casey`s car.

And tonight, we learn mom Casey may have detectives over the barrel. Hours of so-called dead zone drop the tot mom cell activity on and around the day Caylee disappears. This after cell phone records reveal mom Casey obsessively texting and calling day and night, over 553 texts. But then the phone goes radio-silent when Caylee vanishes.

And tonight, a team of bounty hunters and volunteer divers continue to comb a local park and the murky alligator-infested waters in the Econ River in the search for Caylee. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I believe that there`s -- something was dead back there. And I smell and I`m, like, Oh, my God. I think I whispered out to myself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to Orange County authorities, tot mom Casey Anthony`s car, which showed evidence of human decomposition, still reeks, and the car has been in the evidence garage for four months.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One office said that he could smell the odor just by being near the vehicle, even with its doors locked.

CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local 6 analyzed hundreds of text messages and phone calls placed and received by Casey in the two weeks after Caylee disappeared. We found only 24 times when three or more hours passed with her phone remaining silent. And when you account for sleep and periods when she appeared to stay in the same place, we`re left with three gaps or dead zones, three hours of possibilities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic, and I went to a neutral place, still hoping that I would get a call, or you know, find out that Caylee was coming back so that I could go get her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a hometown Navy officer gunned down in cold blood. No, not Iraq, not Afghanistan, but in upscale Virginia suburbs. And the tragedy unfolds directly in front of the victim`s two little girls, his fiancee and the family dog, all out on a stroll in a quaint, pristine neighborhood. Tonight, who murdered Navy Lieutenant Todd Cox (ph)?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was "Pop," pause "Pop-pop, pop-pop."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sounds of gunfire quickly turned this tranquil neighborhood in a chaotic crime scene. At around 8:00 o`clock, police say, Todd Cox, his fiancee and two children were walking their dog along Beverly (ph) Avenue when the shooter gunned Cox down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Megan (ph) says she made eye contact with the driver who would become Todd`s killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was laying on the ground and I had my arms over my head, basically, once I realized what was happening. Really, I just laid there and waited to get shot myself. I thought for sure that he was going to shoot me, too. And then as soon as the shots stopped, I heard the truck start. And the truck was leaving, and I looked over.

i think, for the whole family, I mean, we deserve answers. And whoever did this needs to pay for what they`ve done. Todd didn`t deserve to die like this. Nobody does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, after we pulled inside the garage, she said -- her exact words were, Jesus Christ, what died?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Orange County sheriff`s office says the smell coming from Casey Anthony`s car determined to be human decomposition is still present nearly four months later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: When I drove around, I told my wife, I said, This car stinks so bad, I can`t -- I`m having a hard time driving it home. It`s raining outside. I have the windows down in the car probably about this much to get home. I couldn`t freaking breathe.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff`s department spokesman even went so far as to say he could smell the horrific odor just by being near the car, which had its doors and windows shut.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: When I first went there to pick up that vehicle, I got within three feet of it, I could smell something.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Caylee died Monday, June 16, investigators may want to focus more on Wednesday, June 18, to Thursday, June 19. And we found two dead zones of interest on those days. First, Wednesday, June 18, the phone goes silent at 6:57 PM and does not ping another cell tower until 8:32 AM, Thursday the 19th. Later that Thursday, June 19, another unusual gap. Casey`s phone moves from around Tony`s apartment at 4:54 that afternoon, then starts toward the south and east. There`s no indication where Casey may have been. And if this is the time Casey may have disposed of the body in her car trunk, there`s no indication where Caylee may be, either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, welcome back.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Thank you.

GRACE: What can you tell me? What`s the latest on the search today, the dive search?

WILLIAMS: Well, first off, we can talk about the Anthony car. It still has that smell of death. Dr. Henry Lee and attorney Jose Baez stopped by the car today. They took a look at the car, they took photographs, things of that nature. They were not able to take anything away from the car.

And as opposed to the search now, we have in the little Econ River, a half dozen divers went into the Little Econ River earlier today, they came up empty-handed. Yesterday, if you recall, Nancy, they came up with a bag of goodies, basically, a Gumby doll and some bones, but they were not related to the Caylee Anthony case.

Now, this bombshell we just learned. Leonard Padilla, who has been conducting that search, the California bounty hunter, has been told by Blanchard Park officials, Out you go. You`re not going to be diving this weekend whatsoever.

GRACE: Why?

WILLIAMS: Because they just want a respite of everything that has happened out there. That area has already been searched by -- by Tim Miller and his Equusearch team. It`s already been cleared. So nobody really knows why there`s just this fascination from Leonard about going back into the water. There`s a lot of alligators in the water. There`s a lot of strange things in that water out there in the Little Econ.

GRACE: Well, it just seems to me -- I know that Tim Miller had used the sidescan sonar. I don`t know what it would hurt to also search with divers.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, that`s a good back-up because one time, Tim Miller had promised that his divers would be out there, they never showed up. And that`s why Leonard Padilla hired a couple of divers to go in yesterday from a group called Black Water. And they were volunteers. They went in and found this bag. But there`s still a lot of things down there, and the water is very murky, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s talk about this dead zone. What can you tell me about that, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, what we can say is there were three times during the course of several days where her phone went dead. The first one was June 17, a three-hour period, between 5:23 and 8:23 PM. Then her cell phone pinged near Tony Lazzaro`s (ph) apartment near the University of Central Florida. Then on June 18, the cell went dead from 6:57 PM until 8:32 the next morning. Both times, again, the phone pinged when it was turned on near Lazzaro`s apartment. Then on the 19th, it pinged on a tower near Lake Underhill at 4:54 PM. Then the cell phone went dead for several hours.

GRACE: Out to famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. The detectives say now, four months after the fact, they still smell the smell of human decomposition. You are a paid consultant to the Anthony defense team. Take a listen to this, Koby (ph).

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you guys picked up the car, what else was in the car that may not have been in the car when we inventoried it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys are aware of the smell of the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I`m trying to tiptoe around that issue because I know it`s a sensitive one.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I just got to tell you my feelings are, and I don`t like how that smells. I`m being straight with you guys. I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t like the smell, either.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m being straight and honest and I just...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we appreciate that, George, and we wouldn`t share that with anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, because that`s a difficult topic for you.

GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s tough. You know, stuff has got to come out. It`s just the way it is. I`m not going to hold back

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

I thought rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

I know what I know. Caylee is not dead.

Air samples don`t mean anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: No odor, Koby. But the detectives say four months later, it still reeks.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, the chemistry of decomposition, whatever was decomposing, consists of a lot of different chemicals, some of them volatile -- they evaporate -- and some don`t. And I`m assuming that what they`re smelling are the chemicals that have adsorbed onto various surfaces either in the car, under the car, someplace on the car. So that`s what they`re smelling.

GRACE: The smell of decomposition? You are admitting there`s decomposition?

KOBILINSKY: I`m saying that something was decomposing. I don`t know what it was or whether it was human or not. But...

GRACE: Are you suggesting it`s a pizza, like your clients did?

KOBILINSKY: Certainly not. I don`t think...

GRACE: So you admit that it`s a life form.

KOBILINSKY: I don`t think it`s a pizza. And based on what I`ve read, it is a life form, or was a life form.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Peggy in Florida. Hi, Peggy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Where is Caylee`s dad? And who is he? Does anybody know?

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the get- go. Natisha, weigh in.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Caylee`s dad is someone who was never put on the birth certificate. There have been several different stories about who he was or who he is. But the long story short is that he is deceased, and he was not in Caylee`s life whatsoever.

GRACE: Why do you believe he`s deceased, because Casey Anthony said so?

LANCE: Well, yes. This is according to Casey Anthony that...

GRACE: Wait. Did you just say yes? You believe something Casey Anthony said?

LANCE: I`m not saying I believe it. I`m just saying, according to Casey Anthony, she says that the father of Caylee is deceased. And that seems to be a story that police have been comfortable with, and they`ve gone with that story, as well.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. The search has ended. Will there be any more dives in Blanchard Park? The search has ended for today, that is.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, as we`re hearing, Nancy, Leonard Padilla is not allowed back in Blanchard Park, so for now, Blanchard Park is going to be quiet for some time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve been getting text messages, phone calls, media. I`ve heard it from all over. And you know, it`s been -- I hear it from the authorities. It`s just -- it is what it is. It`s a bag of whatever. Just another day in our lives. We go through this every day. I mean, stuff (ph) over at Blanchard Park`s a little different, you know, than what we`ve had, except I did get from Tim Miller they found bones the other day that were rib bones from a cow or something that someone put out at the site.

So you know, it is what it is. Right now, we`re dealing with this. And you know, we still believe firmly that Caylee`s alive. That`s where our focus has been from day one and we`re not faltering from that. And until something concrete comes in from the authorities and not speculation from anybody else, this is what our focus is on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And there has been a lot of infighting, a lot of division amongst the ranks in the search for little Caylee. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Leonard told me, Tim, you don`t realize the opportunity we`re missing, gave me the story about why he thought that. He said, The body`s right here. He said, Tim, think about it. Just think about it. We`ll have the cameras -- we`ll have your divers in there, TV cameras all around. Tim Miller is holding Caylee`s skull. Think how much money we can make, Tim. Exactly what happened today is what Leonard told us on Sunday, and we are doing a statement...

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, you want to respond to that?

MILLER: The script went exactly as he said. It`s not...

GRACE: Leonard, do you want to respond to that?

MILLER: ... a surface -- I asked Leonard to be...

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I`d like to respond.

GRACE: I`d like to hear Leonard respond to that. Go ahead, Leonard.

PADILLA: I begged Tim to send his divers down because we only had one. And I asked him on Sunday -- I even went back by his headquarters and asked him, Please, Tim, we can`t pass up this opportunity, if you`ve got the divers. And he told me -- the last thing he told me Sunday was, OK, I`ll get them out there tomorrow morning. Well, when tomorrow morning came, we had our two divers, and then we decided to go ahead and send in the two divers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And we`ve done a lot of defending various parties on this show, a lot of defending anybody out there, trying to search to bring Caylee home. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Who pays your people?

MILLER: Nobody does, Nancy.

GRACE: They`re all volunteers.

MILLER: We`re all volunteers. I`ve got $35,000-plus invested in -- in Caylee`s search. But what price tag do you put on a missing person?

GRACE: Let them do what Tim Miller does with his search crews every day all over the country. People that are throwing stones -- you know what? They`re not doing anything except armchair quarterbacking. So you take whatever they say with a box of salt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony have been put through hell, publicly stating that the little girl is still alive. Many people have suggested that George and Anthony -- George and Cindy Anthony should also be charged. I disagree.

MILLER: Everybody`s looking forward to, hopefully, bringing this thing to a close this weekend.

GRACE: You know, I pray -- I pray that you`re right so the Anthonys can have some peace of mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Mark Williams with WNDB. Why all the infighting?

WILLIAMS: Boy, you know, it`s tough to say. I`ve stayed very, very, very neutral in this. I know Leonard Padilla. I have not yet met Tim Miller. Both seem to be honorable men. It`s difficult to say what goes on behind closed doors, Nancy. And I -- last week, I did a telephone talk show for our radio station, and I said everybody should throw a couple of bucks towards Tim Miller`s organization because they`re out there doing a great job. I hope this thing comes to an end soon because it`s...

GRACE: Well, bottom line...

WILLIAMS: ... because everybody hurts.

GRACE: ... here`s the deal, Mark Williams. It`s not the search for Mark Williams. It`s not the search for Padilla or Miller or George and Cindy Anthony or Nancy Grace, or anybody else. It is a search for Caylee.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

GRACE: And I believe that a lot of people are getting confused about what is happening down in Florida right now.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Julie in Florida. Hi, Julie. I think I`ve got Julie on the phone. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if the Anthonys have this information that Caylee is alive, why are they wasting everybody`s time and effort? Why don`t they release it and get Casey out of jail?

GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Very quickly, Natisha, what is the most recent sighting? I understand it was in Coral Springs?

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. Cindy said the other day that there was a sighting at a McDonald`s in Coral Springs and they were looking into it and following up on that tip.

GRACE: And to you, Jessica D`Onofrio. I understand that every sighting -- Nashville, Tennessee, Coral Springs, Deltona, Florida, even an AirTran flight from Florida to Atlanta to Puerto Rico -- has been checked out by police? Yes, no.

D`ONOFRIO: They`ve all been checked out by police, Nancy, and they`ve all been dismissed.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Julie in Missouri. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. I first want to say that I think it is great that Leonard is searching the river, regardless of his motives.

GRACE: And you know what? Even if his motive is for showmanship, even if that`s true, he`s searching. He`s searching. I know Tim Miller`s motive. He is a crime victim. His daughter was murdered and went missing, and that propelled him into a lifetime of searching for murder and kidnap victims. You know, I don`t care what the motivation is. They are trying to find Caylee.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, do they know yet what caused the stain in the back of the trunk?

GRACE: You know, that stain was actually referred to in George Anthony`s statement to police. To Lawrence Kobilinsky, who`s on the case for the Anthonys. Do you know what the stain is from?

KOBILINSKY: Honestly, I don`t. I mean, it`s been alluded to that it might be a pizza stain, it might be something biological. But I really...

GRACE: A pizza stain?

KOBILINSKY: I heard stories like that.

GRACE: You know, Koby, you know, you keep saying things like that...

KOBILINSKY: I`m not...

GRACE: ... and they`re going to play it on cross-examination on you at trial.

KOBILINSKY: I am not implying it`s a pizza stain. I`m saying I`ve heard that language. But I don`t know what that stain is. I have no idea.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Hugo Rodriguez out of Miami, defense attorney Carmen St. George out of New York. To you Carmen. Yesterday, when Caylee (SIC) Anthony hears on the jailhouse TV that there may be discovery of a child`s bones at the bottom of the Econ River, they told her to go back to her cell, she said, Fine, turned around and walked off. Can you imagine?

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What else is she going to say, Nancy?

GRACE: Insist that she gets to see the coverage?

ST. GEORGE: Nancy, I think, at this point, she knows she`s the focus of the investigation. She wants to really leave it to the authorities, let them see what they come up with and then answer to it with her attorney.

GRACE: Leave it to the authorities. OK. That`s a good one since she refuses to say cooperate, Carmen. What about it, Hugo?

ST. GEORGE: She doesn`t have to, Nancy. She`s the accused.

GRACE: Yes, and it`s her daughter missing. Rodriguez?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I understand that Joe Baez is going in there every day or every other day to apprise her. It`s a difficult situation. I don`t know that we can insinuate anything from it. You would expect some other type of response.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I believe my daughter ran over something.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY: My husband`s a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said it started around that time when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert joining us out of Raleigh. Ben, it`s great to have you back on. What do you make of this problem the police now have, these dead zones where they can`t determine where Casey Anthony is for hours on end?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, it`s kind of amazing, Nancy, isn`t it, that the best thing the defense has is that their client constantly made phone calls, so we constantly knew where -- where Casey Anthony was, and there`s only a three-hour period over four days that we don`t know where she was? That`s pretty amazing.

GRACE: Yes, but there were three different times that she goes radio- silent. Tell me what your analysis was of her calls, Ben.

LEVITAN: Well, I was just shocked at the sheer volume of calls that Casey Anthony made. There was a one-hour period of time at 8:00 o`clock in the morning where she sent 66 text messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots it stunk so bad.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: There was an overpowering smell. I`ll admit that.

C. ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that has been returned to us regarding the vehicle. Preliminary information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.

C. ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

G. ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

C. ANTHONY: The hair samples don`t mean anything. If we continue to, you know, look at evidence that hasn`t been verified, you guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin, because eventually something is going to happen to her if we don`t find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the trunk of the car that was similar in length and color to that of Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that, you know, that she was in the trunk of that car and that`s she`s dead, certainly is information we take very seriously.

G. ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, insisting the little girl is still alive. The searches go on, including the murky waters of the Econ River, and tonight we learn detectives go back to the car, and four months later, it wreaks of human decomposition.

We are taking your calls live.

I want to talk about the dead zone for one more moment. Detectives over the barrel. They`re in a bad spot, because, apparently, cell phone towers dropped for hours on end mom Casey`s signal around the time little Caylee goes missing.

Ben Levitan with us, telecommunications expert out of Raleigh.

Again, tell me your analysis of her telephone calls and texting.

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, Nancy, I have looked at four days of her records around June 16th, and I found that this is a woman who slept about three to four hours a night, based on when she sent her last text message and when she sent her first text message in the morning.

She was getting up at 8:00 in the morning and sending 60 text messages. She averaged 12 an hour. You`d think a mom would wake up first thing in the morning and up and take care of her child.

Now all we have is three hours that she wasn`t using the phone. So it`s not a dead zone, Nancy. Let`s call it a period of inactivity, which is perfectly normal with people who own cell phones.

GRACE: But if your cell phone is turned on, wouldn`t the tower be able to pick it up?

LEVITAN: Yes, it would, Nancy. But the only information that`s been released that I have, the only forensic evidence, indicates when calls were placed or when she received calls, or when text messages were sent or received.

We do not have further technical data that says that her phone was actually off or in an area where she couldn`t receive a signal. We have not seen that.

GRACE: And at the most, to Sergeant Scott Haines, sheriff`s office with Santa Rosa County, Florida, at the most, we`ve got a three-hour stretch. How far can you go in three hours?

Let`s see, 60 times 3, 180, that`s 90 miles one way, 90 miles back. But on those days, Sergeant Haines, June 17th, 18th and 19th, she can be placed at other locations during the day which would preclude her from driving 90 miles anywhere.

So how bad do these dead zones really hurt police?

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL.: I don`t think they hurt them that bad. Any area has dead zones. The ping locates within a few miles. So -- and when they overlap, they can triangulate, so that can be narrowed down.

There is always going to be dead zones if the phone is off, it`s not going to ping. So they`re still looking for a very close proximity and I don`t think it`s going to hurt them that bad with all the other evidence that they have.

GRACE: Let`s take a further look at it, to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist, and author. Dr. Gardere, what does it mean behaviorally the fact that, as Levitan tells us, she is texting 60, 70 times an hour and suddenly she goes radio-silent for extended periods of time when Caylee goes missing?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": Yes, it tells me that there is a possibility that she was having some sort of a manic episode, something traumatic may have happened that we think she probably may have been part of.

This is a young woman who is desperate, who is confused, but there was something going on, something catastrophic going on with her emotionally at that time.

GRACE: To change that behavior.

Joining me right now, Michael Gast, he is the president and founder of National Academy of Police Diving, he is also a training -- a trainer.

Mr. Gast, it`s great to have you with us. What is your analysis of the dive search of the Econ River down there in Florida?

MICHAEL GAST, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, TRAINER, NATIONAL ACADEMY OF POLICE DIVING: Well, every search requires the people that are involved to be systemic and thorough. And that means if they`re a team they need to be people that work together.

When you cover an area, you need to be able to be concise in what you`re searching for, and give up an area that`s not in it.

GRACE: Does it matter if you`re searching at day or nighttime?

GAST: For the diver, it really doesn`t, if the visibility in the bottom, turbidity, as such that you can`t see anything anyways. But in the daytime, it`s better for safety. That people on the surface can tend to any emergencies that come up a lot more efficiently.

GRACE: And also, isn`t it true that in the daytime a little bit of light filters down?

GAST: Most of the time that is true. But sometimes the turbidity can be such that it`s just zero visibility.

GRACE: How much does the silt on the bottom of the river confuse things for the divers?

GAST: Well, it depends on how badly they stir it up. If it`s a river, it`s obviously flowing. So if they address the turbidity or the silt coming up as they move into the water, it`s going to be going behind them, so they`ll be hitting fresh bottom each time.

GRACE: And, everybody, with me, Michael Gast, the president and founder of National Academy of Police Diving. These people are actually diving amongst alligators. Thoughts?

GAST: Well, it`s just something you need to be cautious with. Alligators tend to want to stay away from people moving in the water with them. They do have tell-tale signs as far as when they`re aggressive and when they`re not. But you need to, obviously, have people watching out for any cruising through the area.

GRACE: Also joining me Mark Smith, polygraph expert and he is the VP in New Jersey Polygraphists.

Sir, thank you very much. Question: if you take two polygraphs off one person, can you fail one and pass another with the same questions?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, V.P. NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: I wouldn`t think so, Nancy.

GRACE: Why is that?

SMITH: Because if someone is telling the truth, they`re going to come up every time they`re tested as truthful. If they`re not, they`re going to come up deceptive.

GRACE: And what if someone is a habitual violator -- habitual liar?

SMITH: That`s a common myth. Habitual liars are just good liars, but it has no effect on the polygraph. I`ve never seen that in any of the cases I`ve run.

GRACE: You mean it would have no effect on the polygraph?

SMITH: Someone who is a habitual liar means they lie a lot. It doesn`t mean that they can control the physiology in their body that`s going to happen when they lie.

GRACE: How do you beat a polygraph?

SMITH: I don`t think you can. You can be trained maybe to meditate or something like that, or disassociate yourself from your body, but it would be extremely, extremely difficult.

GRACE: I agree with you. I agree with you. I think the trick is in the questions asked.

Everyone, with me an expert, Mark Smith, with New Jersey Polygraphists. Joining me right now by phone, Tim Miller with EquuSearch.

Hi, Tim.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: You`re calling in to make a point. Tell me.

MILLER: Well, I mean, the point is, there`s been so much negative stuff going around here, and so much -- and you know what, I think that all in all, little Caylee has touched and broken every heart in America.

And you know, once in a while we have different personalities, we`ve got different attitudes, and unfortunately they clash at times, and then we lose our focus. And I`m just begging everybody to get their focus back on this little girl. And it`s all about Caylee.

Not about anything else. So let`s get our emotions back together and let`s get our focus back together and find this little girl.

GRACE: Tim, Tim, I got to tell you something. I would feel the same way that you`re feeling right now when I was trying cases. When you`re there with the victim`s family, and you`re working day and night, back-breaking hours, it is so hard.

And I know you, Tim Miller. You`re a crime victim yourself after the murder of your daughter. And I know that every case you handle brings that back up in some way or another. I know you went down at least eight times in the search for Natalee Holloway.

Will EquuSearch continue in the effort to find Caylee?

MILLER: You know, the positive thing that came out of Caylee that nobody really knows, Nancy, is we`ve gotten over 85 brand-new Texas EquuSearch members in Orlando that`s going to continue searching on weekends on a smaller scale.

And I told Cindy Anthony the other day, I said, you know what, one day you will realize that Caylee`s disappearance wasn`t in vain, because we are getting new members together, a whole new chapter together down here, and it`s not -- if it happens, it`s when it`s happened.

There will be people here to hit the ground running, so no parent will be alone when their child is missing.

GRACE: Well, Tim.

MILLER: Through all the bad, Nancy, that we`ve learned and, you know what, we`re more prepared for the next one.

GRACE: Tim, I know that there has been a lot of stones thrown and a lot of infighting. But you`re always welcome here. I know where your heart is. And I want to thank you for calling in.

Everybody, we`ll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: My mother and father told me that my dad actually drove the car back because my mother was talking about how she didn`t know how my dad survived it because the smell was so bad.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We went from planning a wedding to a funeral. And it`s just the same nightmare every day you wake up.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A fiancee desperate for help, speaking out after her future husband brutally gunned down.

Naval Lieutenant Todd Cox went for a walk with his family. Out of nowhere, a pickup truck pulls up, a gunman walks up to Todd and fires at point blank range, hitting Todd multiple times.

The brutal murder, right in front of his own fiancee and family. Now, his fiancee begs for just one tip, so justice is served.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just one tip. That`s all we need.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL" here on Headline News just before our show.

Jane, please tell me what happened. Is there any break in the case here? This is a tragedy.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": It`s a horrific tragedy, and Nancy, there are promising developments to the story. And frankly, it`s thanks to you. The fiancee of this murdered naval hero had become increasingly frustrated and desperate and scared over the months, because she said she just wasn`t getting any answers from the local authorities.

And this was a particularly gruesome execution-style slaying.

GRACE: Right in front of the children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right in front of the children, this guy pumps five bullets into this naval officer, and then doesn`t say a word, doesn`t take anything, gets in the pick-up truck and drives off.

This happened near her home. So she`s scared, at times, to go back her house. She`s terrified. So in desperation, she contacts you, you put the story on the air last Friday, and miracle of miracles, what a coincidence, she is now getting full cooperation from the police.

She has met with them. They assure this is an active investigation and they are pursuing all leads.

GRACE: To Megan McGuire, this is Lieutenant Todd Cox`s fiancee. Megan, it is so great to have you with us again. The children were right there with you, taking a walk with the family dog. How are they responding to what they witnessed?

MEGAN MCGUIRE, LT. TODD COX`S FIANCEE, DAD & NAVAL OFFICER SHOT IN COLD BLOOD: They`re doing well. They`re all in counseling. They are -- I mean, I guess kids are a little more resilient, you know, than adults. So they`re doing well.

GRACE: Tell me about the break in the case. What do we know?

MCGUIRE: Actually, as far as any break in the case, I really don`t have any information on that. I was told that, obviously, that it is an active case, that they are making progress on it.

GRACE: They are making progress? Do they have a person of interest or a suspect?

MCGUIRE: I know that several months ago they had mentioned a person of interest or, you know, were following up on some leads. But as far as specific information, I don`t have any of that.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Hugo Rodriguez and Carmen St. George.

Hugo out in Miami, this was in cold blood. There wasn`t a fight leading up to it, it wasn`t an accident, the guy gets out of the car and guns down an American military man in front of his children.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: Obviously, from someone who`s either done this in the past or was calculated and planned. This was some type of a hit. They obviously knew the victim. They obviously possibly knew where they were at. And just went to him. It wasn`t random. I think it was calculated.

GRACE: And Carmen St. George, you know what that means, that is death penalty country.

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. And I definitely would agree that it`s targeted and specific. Unless there`s some sort of misidentification that they thought he was someone else or.

GRACE: But that wouldn`t be a defense. I meant to murder somebody else, but I got him instead?

ST. GEORGE: Not a defense at all.

GRACE: That will help.

ST. GEORGE: Not a defense, but I`m just saying, in terms of investigating this crime, it looks like somebody was out to get him specifically, or if it was somebody else that he was misidentified, then that`s a different story. But this is definitely not a random act.

GRACE: To Jane Velez-Mitchell -- Jane, why had the case sat stymie for so long?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they just don`t have that much information. They didn`t get a good description of the perpetrator because the fiancee, understandably -- first of all, he heroically pushed her to the ground, the murdered man, before he was gunned down to get her out of the way.

She was on the ground, curled up in a ball, with her hands over her face. The kids hid behind a tree, so they didn`t get a good description. And then this guy drove off. He didn`t say anything, he didn`t take anything. So that`s the problem.

GRACE: Back to Megan McGuire, Lieutenant Todd Cox`s fiancee.

Everybody, just let me tell you right off the top, the tip line is 888-562- 5887. 888-LOCK- U-UP. There`s a $4,000 reward.

Megan McGuire, that night you didn`t get a good look at the guy?

MCGUIRE: No, I didn`t.

GRACE: Why?

MCGUIRE: When we were walking down the street, we were on the sidewalk and the truck drove down the street on my right. I just glanced over. We just glanced at one another.

GRACE: What about the vehicle? What did the vehicle look like?

MCGUIRE: It was a white Ford F-150 with a green stripe down the side. A two-tone truck, probably a mid -- early to mid `90s model.

GRACE: OK. Let me put that out there. A mid `90s white and green Ford F- 150 pickup. Maybe you have the answer to this mystery.

Right now, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

SHAQUILLE O`NEAL, NBA SUPERSTAR: The message would be a very disturbing thing. I don`t really think a lot of women know what to do.

My name is Shaquille O`Neal, my hero is Karen Earl. She helps and keeps women out of domestic violence situations.

KAREN EARL, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My friend brought me to Jenesse Center. She said, Karen, they need volunteers. I never knew that there were shelters that were safe houses. And I thought about, you know, my mom.

I remember us having to run out of the house at midnight with sheets wrapped around us. I know the impact it had on my mom, and of course impact on me and my siblings. So I volunteered and I never left.

And in `97, I became the executive director.

O`NEAL: The Jenesse Center is a comprehensive center. You can bring your children. They`ll help you get back on your feet.

EARL: We have more than 100 beds where the women and their children can stay for two years. We started something that we call healing through art. We try to work with that particular family to help them express what it is that they`re feeling.

O`NEAL: Miss Earl is a tireless, fearless woman. She`s helping those in need. You get the presidential clap from me.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now, CNN.com/heroes.

CNN Heroes is sponsored by.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Do what you have to do for that. You have to shake your ass, that`s all you have to do. If I could shake my ass for 50,000 baht, I`d shake my ass.

GRACE: The women you see judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot snugged up in that hotel room with are college students there in Thailand. He is trying to talk them into going to the Netherlands, his birthplace, to be dancers and models, translation, hookers.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The body of a former "American Idol" contestant was found just outside the home of "Idol" judge Paula Abdul. Police have confirmed that the woman was found dead inside her car just yards away from Abdul`s home.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you mean to tell me that if someone`s watching you walk out of your house, maybe we should put them behind bars.

GRACE: No.

RIPKA: . in case they`re a psycho and going to kill somebody?

GRACE: But if somebody is there every day, at all hours of the day and night, with a mental history, you`re darn right, they need to be put behind bars and maybe Selena and John Lennon would still be alive today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe a break in the disappearance of Caylee Anthony. It`s a swampy river basin area where police have found what appeared to be possibly the remains of little Caylee Anthony.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: What they thought were bones were actually two rocks. One was smaller than the other. I saw the larger one. It was sort of diamond-shaped. But again, they were saying it had nothing to do.

GRACE: No connection with Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, let`s remember Army Specialist Mary Jaenichen, 20, Temecula, California, killed Iraq. A military police officer, she wore the same brass medallion as her father when he served in Operation Desert Storm.

Always thought of others first, loved the beach, spending time with friends, handing out comic books to Iraqi children. Leaves behind parents Alfred and Julieta, two brothers, two sisters.

Mary Jaenichen, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us. And a special good night from the New York control room.

Night, Brett, Liz, Stacy, Evil.

Tonight, good night from friends of the show from Ivy League Philadelphia Wharton University, Naomi, Marina, Dan, Tyler Ronnie, Andrea, Nicole. What a fine bunch.

Welcome back, sweet Naomi.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/14/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Text Messages Show Casey Anthony Frustrated With Mother`s Duties

Aired November 17, 2008 - 20:00:00

Text Messages Show Casey Anthony Frustrated With Mother`s Duties

Aired November 17, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police suspicions confirmed. Tonight, the timeline is finally nailed down and it reveals that in the days and weeks leading up to Caylee`s disappearance, tot mom repeatedly complains to friends Caylee`s cramping her style, her social life. And it all comes straight from the horse`s mouth. Her own text messages do her in.

And tonight, the search continues in a local park, including in the murky, alligator-infested waters of the Econ River, all in the search for Caylee. And although the tot mom`s not cooperating with police in the search for Caylee, a Florida trial lawyer is now set to depose her under oath in hours. Will the tot mom finally be forced to speak? Bounty hunter, leading the search for Caylee, Leonard Padilla, agrees to a polygraph. But will grandparents George and Cindy Anthony and brother, Lee, break down and do the same? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities were being heavily restricted by her daughter, Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene, but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2- year-old daughter Caylee home alone. Anthony`s mommy duties were not allowing her to have fun with friends and caused the tot mom to constantly wait for her mother, Cindy Anthony, to come home to take care of the parenting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would have been great to get Casey, Lee, Cindy and George would have taken a lie-detector test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite swirling anger and personal attacks among the players in the Casey Anthony case, volunteer searchers continue to search for Caylee, hoping to bring her home and bring peace to a community desperate for answers.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Kidfinders -- it`s -- (INAUDIBLE) people are on our side. We believe our granddaughter`s alive and still out there, and we`re going to bring her home. You know, this other stuff that`s going on is just a distraction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. The suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide. He`s still insisting wife number four left her own children for another man, claiming she remains in hiding.

Peterson now plans to file for divorce. It`s all caught on audiotape. At stake, all the marital assets, including the family home. The prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, Peterson must now prove in court that she left him. But how?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I really believe she took off with somebody. Why am I going out searching for someone I don`t believe is there? You know, it`s a waste of my time. It`s, like, crazy.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former Bolingbrook, Illinois, police officer Drew Peterson, a suspect in his four wife, Stacy`s, disappearance, is said to be seeking a divorce from the missing mom of two.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always said that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bychowski.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: Well, what about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you, nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, he`s been blabbing for months. Now he clams up? Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Casey Anthony actually be forced to give details of what happened to Caylee from behind bars? Zenaida Gonzalez`s attorney, John Morgan, hopes that`s the case. He says he plans to depose Casey from jail, thanks to Anthony`s countersuit against Zenaida Gonzalez. In that suit, Anthony claims she was truthful to investigators. Now Morgan telling local reporters the countersuit forces Anthony to either give a deposition or drop her lawsuit. Morgan hopes to depose Anthony within the next two weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter was on the edge. You know that (INAUDIBLE) all these contradictions.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from the apartment complex. And they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you at all that day. Do you think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... do all this stuff?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter (INAUDIBLE) the car (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this while reports indicate divers plan to return to Blanchard Park to continue the search for Caylee in the Little Econ River, while Leonard Padilla confirms he`s waiting for the FBI to administer a polygraph.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A lot happening in the search for Caylee. With us tonight, the renowned scientist Dr. Henry Lee. As you know, Dr. Lee has been called in on the Anthony case, and he has examined the automobile belonging to the tot mom that still reeks of human decomposition now 22 weeks after Caylee goes missing. We`ll go straight to Dr. Lee.

But first to Natisha Lance, our producer. Her own text messages are doing her in. What do they confirm? I understand our suspicions are now confirmed, as to a possible motive, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the text messages confirm, Nancy, that, apparently, Casey`s mommy duties were getting in the way of her being able to go out. There were several text messages she had with friends between May and June, where in which time she had to cancel certain plans with them because she said, quote, her "mommy duties" got in the way. Now, one of these times was with Amy Huizenga on May 3. Another time was in mid-May, and another time, as well, was at the end of May. And then after that, she ends up going to that no clothes party, which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her in that American flag. And then at the end of June...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait! The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S, no clothing party?

LANCE: Yes. It was...

GRACE: No, I didn`t know about that. What`s that?

LANCE: It was actually the anything but clothes party. And in the text messages, she says that, You will see the American flag in all of its glory.

GRACE: OK. Before we go to Dr. Henry Lee, very quickly to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, at her point in life with a child, a 2- year-old child, what is she doing at a party that the cops bust up at 1:15 AM?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Hey, she`s an unmarried mother who`s still young, and she made an unfortunate decision when she had her child, and that`s to understand...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!

TAYLOR: ... the complete responsibilities...

GRACE: When I was her age, I was not at a party that was broken up by cops. I was in law school, working two jobs. Help me out here, Doctor.

TAYLOR: Well, she chose to be a mom, and with being a mother comes the responsibilities of denying what you want to do and taking care of your child. Clearly, that was a conflict for her. Her mother seemingly bailed her out numerous times. But as she said, the mommy duties became too overwhelming. She just wasn`t ready to be a mother.

GRACE: I just don`t see what you said, Doctor -- Dr. Janet Lee (SIC) -- denying what you want to do. I would think that what you would want to do is be with your child.

TAYLOR: Well, I mean, the reality is, mothers feel a lot of pull. It`s a lot of responsibility. Sometimes you have support, sometimes you don`t. But most of us have to make the sacrifices with coming with the decision that we have made to have our children, to raise our children, and to delay our gratification until later.

GRACE: With me, before I lose him, I want to go to Dr. Henry Lee, who is taking time out of his travel schedule to join us tonight. You know Dr. Henry Lee originally probably from the Orenthal James Simpson double murder trial, forensic scientist. He has examined Casey Anthony`s car. He is a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO ANTHONY DEFENSE: Yes. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: Friend.

LEE: I haven`t talked to you for a while.

GRACE: I know. I`ve been missing you, Dr. Lee. It`s nice to hear your voice. So did the car still stink to high heaven when you examined it?

LEE: Yes, when I examine the car, it still have the odor.

GRACE: Now, Dr. Lee, your testimony has been extremely impressive in the past. No one will ever forget the various demonstrations that you have done in high-profile court cases. When you say it smelled, is it true the car smells of decomposition?

LEE: The smell -- actually, it`s a rotten smell. It`s caused by any type of decomposition. The definition of decomposition, anything. It can be any food material. Can be human body. Can be any type of thing, decomposition. So the terms decomposed, human body odor, I don`t think any scientist can qualify to say -- just smell the odor, say that`s a human body.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Henry Lee -- everyone, with us, he is on the Anthony defense team -- I know that you have the highest regard for the Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee. I trained there myself for a period of time. According to them, and their -- their specialty unit, the "body farm," there was evidence of human decomposition. Would that be consistent with the smell that you smelled, Dr. Henry Lee?

LEE: Here, that`s -- you know, I`m a scientist. I only can address some scientific issue. I cannot speculate. Decomposition, because the trunk -- don`t forget, I looked at not only the car. Also looked at the liner, the carpet. Also looked at the content of the material. And I don`t know anybody informed me or not -- there are a lot of garbage was collected. A lot of material was collected from the trunk.

GRACE: Like what?

LEE: Like what? Like food, like meat, like pizza box, like cheese, like ham, box (ph) of soda, and all different material in there. So basically, a lot of maggots and a lot of insects, all kind of material mixed together. So I cannot really elaborate too much on what I found because this is an active case. I cannot really reach a conclusion at this moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know! The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, renowned scientist, Dr. Henry Lee. Shortly, we will be joined by another famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Lee joining us as he heads to the Philippines to accept a peace award medal. Again, thank you for being with us. Dr. Henry Lee, what part of the car did you examine?

LEE: OK. Nancy, I look at the whole car. Then I examine the liner, the carpet, the content of the car. I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Orange sheriff department, the crime scene investigator and detective. They`re true professionals. So the whole examination took a whole day and very professional manner. We did find some additional evidence, which was collected and handed to the sheriff`s department.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, do you plan on looking at any other evidence in the case, such as the hair samples?

LEE: Not right now. My initial agreement was just to examine the car, to look at the car. So I don`t know any other evidence. And of course, a lot depends on the schedule and -- to look at the hair or not. And I`m sure if it`s important -- Larry -- Dr. Kobilinsky is another excellent forensic scientist. I`m sure he can look at the hair, too.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, you stated that there was a lot of garbage in the car. Did I understand you correctly to say meat and cheese were in the car?

LEE: Box of -- you know, those (INAUDIBLE) frozen foods. So have some food residue there. But we did find a lot of maggots, insect activity and fungus growing. But you know, it`s a lot of (INAUDIBLE) information have to digest before we reach any conclusion.

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, you said frozen food? Such as what?

LEE: Frozen food boxes. You know, those packages.

GRACE: Frozen food boxes. Was there food inside of it?

LEE: Well, because right now, I can`t really say too much about what we looked at, what we found, OK?

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, I understand that. You are a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team. And very quickly, Dr. Henry Lee, I asked you about the body farm, which is a special unit there at Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee.

LEE: Yes. That`s not really -- the body farm, just people give that name. The correct term is Tennessee Anthropological Testing Facility.

GRACE: It certainly is. And I understand that you have the utmost respect for them.

LEE: Yes. Dr. Bass (ph) is a good friend of mine and -- but I doubt any forensic anthropologist can just smell the odor and reach a conclusion.

GRACE: No, it`s my understanding they took an air sample, and then with a gas spectrometer, then analyzed it and found human decomposition in it.

LEE: Right. Well (INAUDIBLE) it`s identified as organic molecules.

GRACE: Right.

LEE: It`s not going to identify human or nonhuman. Any decomposed molecules this (ph) consist of certain amount of components only shows some of those organic material present. That`s -- I think -- you know, somebody looked at this and reach a conclusion that`s human decomposition. That`s little bit too far.

GRACE: Joining us...

LEE: But right this moment, of course, we have to digest, to review the report and to found out what exactly it means.

GRACE: With us tonight exclusively, Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic consultant to the Anthony defense team.

Very quickly, I want to go out to Kathi Belich, with WFTV. On Friday, it was reported that Leonard Padilla was kicked out of the Jay Blanchard Park. There he was with volunteer divers, searching the bottom of the Econ River. That`s not true at all. He was not kicked out. There were simply other functions at the park, and he didn`t search over the weekend. He is resuming the search this week, is that correct, Kathi Belich?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. The divers plan to be back later this week. I`m not sure if he is coming back with them. I did talk with him, actually, about a half hour ago, and he couldn`t tell me when he might take this lie-detector test, either. He has agreed to take a lie-detector test. He doesn`t know why they`ve asked him to take a test, but he says he`s agreed to it and he`ll either come back to Orlando to take that test, if he has to, or an FBI agent in the Sacramento area will do that.

But yes, he was not -- he was told not to come back for the weekend because there were a lot of activities at the park, it`s very crowded, and they really didn`t want us and everybody else there, as well. So he is welcome to come back this week, as far as I understand.

GRACE: Well, Kathi, let`s get it straight from the horse`s mouth. With me right now, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. Why are you being asked to take a polygraph test? And to your credit, you`ve said, Sure, strap me up!

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: To be honest with you, I think sometimes, you know, the tactics of putting an individual like me in a car when you could just as easily stand there in front of 100 people and ask them questions is meant to either annoy or upset you, which it doesn`t. I`ve sat in many cop cars. I think that the situation about a lie detector-test being asked in front of people is supposed to make you uncomfortable or disconcerting and I got...

GRACE: Well, you don`t look uncomfortable to me.

PADILLA: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

PADILLA: I`ve taken lie-detector tests going back to when I was...

GRACE: I hope you passed them.

PADILLA: I think I did, in the military, many, many times. So something like this is probably...

GRACE: What are they -- are people alleging that you planted what was found in the Econ River?

PADILLA: I was asked that by reporters, not by law enforcement. But I think the main thing is the cross that was on the tree...

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: ... that two young ladies took pictures of back in August. And on the Sunday and Monday that we were there, one of our team members found two little... GRACE: Beads.

PADILLA: ... beads that matched the beads in Casey`s house identically. And I think law enforcement was a little, Oh, my God, how did we miss those? Well, my guys are taught to dig, dig and dig more.

GRACE: Well, with us, taking your calls live tonight, Leonard Padilla. More on the search and the text messages that confirmed what we already suspected about possible motive for Caylee`s disappearance.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Favorite places to go. I guess Universal`s one of them.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, as a theatrical thing, of course. But she liked Jay Blanchard Park, going to Lake Underhill and walking around the lake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whereabouts in the park did she like the best?

CASEY ANTHONY: The playground. She liked to just attempt to run around Lake Underhill.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My husband is a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot happening in the search for little Caylee. First of all, out to the lines. Raye in Florida. Hi, Raye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, very much. What is your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know why George, Cindy and Lee aren`t taking a polygraph just to clear themselves.

GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney Jason Oshins, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless. What about it Jason Oshins?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, it`s not to their advantage.

GRACE: Why? They`re not charged with anything.

OSHINS: It`s not admissible. It`s only going to hurt them and...

GRACE: We know it`s not admissible. That`s not what Raye in Florida asked you.

OSHINS: Yes, but it`s not going to help. There`s nothing good that`s going to come of it no matter how it`s administered or how it`s tailored (ph).

GRACE: Susan, agree?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If they have nothing to hide, they should come forward and help find the remains of this little precious girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She is coming home.

She is leading you to a place, but she is not telling you the exact right location to which apartment it is, because she is afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.

My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half truths, but she is not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

ANTHONY: The same dog that cleared our house, cleared them. There is no evidence that Casey has ever done anything to harm her child. She lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead. We still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. We have a tip now Coral Spring, Florida that Caylee is alive. Until I hear it from the authorities, it`s just -- it is what it is. It`s a bag of whatever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Yes, obviously, Cindy Anthony is ignoring the obvious. She`s in denial. Clearly, she`s defending her daughter. But can you imagine being hounded by the media every day, every night, like a pack of hyenas, chasing you up the sidewalk?

Out to the lines, Suzie in New Mexico. Hi, Suzie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: No, thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if this car smelled so horribly bad like, by all accounts it did, wouldn`t it have been noticeable to her boyfriend and other people, and how could she stand driving around in it?

GRACE: Well, you know, she abandoned the car.

Out to Nikki Pierce. I don`t know that the boyfriend ever smelled the car. Wasn`t she waiting outside the car with groceries in her hands when he showed up?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, when he showed up to rescue her from the supposedly -- that she ran out of gas when she abandoned the car at the Amscot parking lot. She was standing outside with groceries in her car so he never got near it.

And when she was returning the gas cans and so on to her father that she supposedly stole, she wouldn`t let him near the trunk, either. So by all accounts, she tried to keep everyone away from it.

GRACE: To Crystal in Delaware, hi, Crystal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I absolutely love your show. I watch it every night.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, with all of the sightings they had of Caylee in the United States, has anyone gone down to Puerto Rico and checked the sightings out down there?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Out to you, Natisha Lance, our reporter on the case from the very beginning. What about in Puerto Rico?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, in Puerto Rico, Cindy did do an interview on Univision Television to get the word out out there in Puerto Rico, but also the private investigator who has been working with them has been following up on all tips, all leads that are coming from all over the country, as well as Puerto Rico.

GRACE: So back to you, Leonard Padilla, when are you set for your polygraph everybody is talking about?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, Friday, I spoke to the agent there, Nick Savage, and he said that his polygrapher was on vacation or something this week.

GRACE: Well, there`s more than one, FYI.

PADILLA: Well, no -- I don`t know. I mean he told me that the guy that does the -- the polygraph test there was gone and would be back either Tuesday or Wednesday. And I hinted that maybe he wants to cover my expenses while I stayed past the weekend. And then he said no, well, we can go out to California, and do them out there.

And the thought came to my mind that I`d call Don King and maybe have the polygraph test done on pay-per-view and make some money to go back and resume the hunt.

GRACE: Boy, you really are something. OK. I will just leave it at that, Padilla, because at least -- no matter what anybody says about you, at least, whatever the motivation is, you`re out there hunting. You`re doing something. Everybody else is sitting on their duff, all right? So you`ve got that going to you.

To Mark Smith, polygrapher -- polygraph expert with New Jersey Polygraphist -- Mark Smith, how reliable do you believe polygraphs are?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, V.P. NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: It doesn`t matter what I believe, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, well, that`s what I asked you.

SMITH: The Department of Defense has done testing over 20 years, and they`ve shown that for specific-issue polygraph tests, it`s well over 90 percent. That`s the good news. The other good news, it`s the only method of lie detection that there is today.

GRACE: You know what? That was an excellent answer. You know, you beat me at my own game. Why should somebody take a polygraph, such as the Anthony family?

SMITH: Nancy, look at the -- what would the average person do? If somebody`s child disappeared or the wife disappeared, they don`t want the police suspecting them. The first thing they should do is, if the police ask, or even if they don`t, volunteer, get that out of the way so that they can focus their resources where it should go.

GRACE: I always point out -- let me go to Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct." Joe, great to see you again. Joe, I always point out Marc Klaas, because when his daughter Polly went missing, the first thing he said to police was polygraph me, don`t waste time on me. I`ll give you anything you want, go search for Polly.

Why isn`t the Anthony family doing that? And then as much as everybody seems to hate Padilla, he`s ready to take a poly?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, I think you`ve got to hand it to Leonard Padilla because there`s offensive polygraphs and defensive polygraphs.

I would never advise a client to do it, only because I think a polygraph is only as good as the person interpreting the results. It doesn`t detect lies or truths. You know it detects bodily responses to questions that I ask.

GRACE: Which are proven to respond when you`re lying. Yes.

LAWLESS: But it`s also.

GRACE: It determines body temperature, sweat, heartbeat. Yes, it detects all of that.

LAWLESS: Cold, stress, anxiety. All of that. I think it`s an investigative tool when someone who is in a position like Marc Klaas was, who comes forward and says, yes, give me a polygraph, because that suggests they believe in their own innocence.

GRACE: But why aren`t the Anthonys taking one? Padilla is ready to take one.

LAWLESS: Well, because at this point I think the police in Florida are -- the police who are involved in the search for Caylee are as much looking for suspects in a murder as they are Caylee. And I think they`re trying to find anyone they can.

I wouldn`t advise them to take it right now, because I don`t know how those results would be interpreted. It`s way too -- I think it`s way too far out in the investigation to let someone in their position do it. I wouldn`t advise them to do it.

GRACE: I want to talk very quickly about the possibility that the tot mom may have to finally speak from behind bars. Certainly not to police. But remember Zenaida Gonzalez, the woman that tot mom accused of kidnapping little Caylee? It turns out she had never even any of the Anthony family?

Well, her lawyer is set to take a deposition under oath, behind bars, of the tot mom.

Unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, Joe Lawless.

Susan Moss, will it work? All she`ll do is take the Fifth Amendment.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may not, because she doesn`t think -- she may not think she is guilty of anything. This -- with this deposition, she is going to need more than the neighbor`s shovel to dig herself out of this one.

GRACE: Jason, is there anything you can say to top that?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I don`t think it`s going to happen as quickly as us and the media would like it to happen, just for the -- you know, the sensationalism. There is a lot more legal maneuvering that`s going to go into this before that ever goes down.

GRACE: Well, Joe lawless, I don`t think it`s going to happen. Because when you know that the -- the person you`re deposing is going to take the Fifth, why would you go ahead and go behind bars?

I mean, she is looking at a murder trial. Why should she go under oath, and for a deposition?

LAWLESS: She shouldn`t, and she won`t. And I think the fact she filed a counterclaim suggests that whoever filed the counterclaim wasn`t thinking. Anyone in her situation should not be giving depositions.

GRACE: No way. No way is she going to give a deposition. I`m surprised the attorney even said it. But I guess he`s got to get it on record.

Let`s go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a consultant on the Casey Anthony defense team. You heard what Lee had to say about Oak Ridge Laboratories, the Body Farm. Do you agree or disagree?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I too am a very good friend of Bill Bass. Let me just say this. The conclusion of their report on air sampling says that it could be human decomposition. It does not say that it is.

That tells me it could be a lot of other things, which apparently is what Doctor Lee is saying.

GRACE: But it is decomposition. That is confirmed. They just don`t know whether it`s human or animal.

KOBILINSKY: That`s -- that is correct.

GRACE: You know, every time you give me an answer, you leave out a little fact, like that big study you told me about, how half of all of the cars searched turned up with chloroform in the trunk. And then I found out only one car turned up with chloroform in the trunk.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, one out of two and the fact that.

GRACE: Yes, I can`t believe you`re actually reiterating it.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that there`s a car with chloroform tells us that that is possible.

GRACE: And, and is what was the amount, the percentage of chloroform in that car?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it`s there tells us.

GRACE: Negligible, negligible, as opposed to highly saturated in Casey Anthony`s car.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it was there tells us it can form in a vehicle.

GRACE: I hope you don`t jump up at trial with that one, Kobe.

To Brian Reich, the deputy chief at the Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, Padilla is about to take a polygraph. Have you ever seen law enforcement or a bounty hunter take a polygraph?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I haven`t seen a bounty hunter take a polygraph, but I`ve got to tell you, it`s certainly applicable that he should be taking a polygraph. I mean he`s using the media to get a lot of publicity. And if I was running this investigation, I would certainly want him to take one.

GRACE: Are you suggesting that he planted the evidence?

REICH: I`m not suggesting that, but I`m saying I would definitely want him to take a polygraph if I was running this investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY: There is still a chance she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody gives Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, and satisfied in my mind that she is not out there, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Drew, on Wednesday I`m releasing a story that you`re meeting a lawyer to divorce Stacy. Can you confirm this?

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOTHER STACY PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: No denial either?

PETERSON: No nothing.

ARMSTRONG: When I interviewed you for "Drew Peterson Exposed," you mentioned that you would seek a divorce on the one year anniversary, you mentioned it was important to move out of Bolling Brook?

PETERSON: I might have said that.

ARMSTRONG: I have a confirmation that you have an appointment with high profile lawyer.

PETERSON: So?

ARMSTRONG: Who specializes in pre and post-divorce proceedings.

PETERSON: Yes.

ARMSTRONG: You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You said - you`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always aid that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bykowski.

ARMSTRONG: So it`s about selling the house and moving away?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Meaning you don`t expect her to return?

PETERSON: Why would she return to all this?

ARMSTRONG: So you`ll sell the house?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: What about the marital assets?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: How far away would you move? You mentioned Kentucky and California in my previous interviews with you for "Drew Peterson Exposed."

PETERSON: Out of the neighborhood is important for the kids. Some of the people around here are nuts.

ARMSTRONG: So Kentucky sounds good?

PETERSON: Anywhere sounds good.

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: What about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you. Nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. He is facing felony gun charges and a possible homicide charge, and he says the neighbors are the nuts? So he has got to move away from them? OK. That`s former cop turned suspect in his wife`s disappearance, Drew Peterson. You heard him speaking with Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," a pretty telling expose` of Drew Peterson.

And with me tonight is Derek Armstrong. He is seeking a divorce, it`s apparent. Why, so he can liquidate all of the assets and get out of dodge?

ARMSTRONG: Absolutely, Nancy, that seems to be the case.

GRACE: And I guess the police are just going to twiddle their thumbs and let it happen?

ARMSTRONG: Well, he seems to think they`re always twiddling their thumbs, I think.

GRACE: On what grounds could he actually divorce Stacy Peterson? I guess he`ll show her and divorce her without her being there.

ARMSTRONG: Yes, under Illinois law, according to my research, he can apply under desertion. He`s claiming she ran away, that she hasn`t been around for a year. I think you have to wait a year.

GRACE: What can you tell us about a mock jury that was created at the University of Illinois regarding the pending gun charge?

ARMSTRONG: I obtained some documents on the mock trial with -- they had 18 jurors who are paid, I think, $50 each. And I obtained the questionnaires afterwards, which indicated their verdicts and what they believed, how they believed the defense did on the presentation and also the prosecution.

GRACE: And what was their verdict?

ARMSTRONG: Five found him guilty, 13 not guilty. All of them said they were not swayed by his involvement or, pardon me, the investigation on his wives. And that they were solely based on -- basing their analysis -- their verdicts on the -- the case presented, which was vindictive prosecution as a defense.

GRACE: With me is Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed."

Kathy Chaney, with the "Chicago Defender," quickly, what more can you tell me?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: Pretty much just as Derek said that you do have to wait for about a year for abandonment in order for you to try to file for divorce. He had said previously that, you know, he was looking to move away, but, you know, he can`t do that right now.

And Stacy`s name is on some of the property, including the house. So that would be impossible for him to do with her still around, with him still married. So right now, it does point that he is looking to get a divorce.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, both out of New York, Joe Lawless out of Philadelphia.

Susan, what do you think?

MOSS: Giving this guy a divorce is like giving Hannibal Lecter steak sauce. But there is good news, because in Illinois there is very broad discovery rules. So if he wants to go and claim desertion, that is going to open up depositions, all types of discovery instruments to find out what happened to Stacy.

GRACE: What about it, Joe Lawless?

LAWLESS: My question would be, who would take the discovery? If she`s abandoned, they`re going to file an affidavit that they tried to serve her, couldn`t find her, there is no one representing Stacy. I think he gets a divorce, unless the judge wants to stay it, pending the murder investigation.

GRACE: Well, Jason Oshins, what would happen with her share of all of the assets?

OSHINS: Well, depending upon if there is a will or not, an administrator can be appointed for her assets, and they can be distributed either to the children, or whoever is named in the will. If there is no will.

GRACE: She has to be declared dead.

OSHINS: Yes, it`s -- well.

GRACE: But if the children get her share of the assets, he`ll get his mitts on it.

OSHINS: Yes, they`re going to declare her dead one way or another, either by the murder investigation, or by a civil finding based on the abandonment.

GRACE: To Derek Armstrong, who wrote "Drew Peterson Exposed," do you truly believe that murder charges are coming down?

ARMSTRONG: I actually do believe in the case of Kathleen Savio that there is an indictment case coming down. I have no evidence of that, it`s just that the hearsay law in Illinois would apply more to that case.

GRACE: And the legislature has changed the hearsay law. And how will that, in a nutshell, help prosecutors that are prosecuting Drew Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: I believe because of a couple of pieces of hearsay, one was Kathleen Savio`s letter indicating that if something happened to her, that Drew did it. And the other would be Pastor Scorey`s hearsay testimony that Stacy told him that Drew had killed Kathleen.

GRACE: To Brian Reich, do you find it suspicious that he wants a divorce?

REICH: Yes, I certainly do. I mean, if your spouse ran off and left you, you would think you`d want to cherish that memory and not end it and not have it final. So if I was investigating this crime I would definitely find that suspicious and want to put a lot more efforts into it.

GRACE: That hearsay rule about to pass the Illinois House is expected to pass, and very quickly, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, what do you make of him being so audacious as to speak a divorce when he`s suspected of killing her?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly in his mind either she`s gone or not coming back. And I think, again, it seems like he`s just not thinking about the children. They`ve had a major loss. And now even if he files for divorce, you know how traumatic that is to a family. So he`s got to think about the welfare of his kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what, there ought to be a law. Can`t you see all that money being funneled away to Turks & Caicos somewhere, Susan Moss?

MOSS: It`s possible but a smart judge will reserve the issue of equitable distribution and the division of marital property.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uhm.

GRACE: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. I was wondering if they ever asked somebody like Tim Miller to search for Stacy.

GRACE: What do we know, Kathy Chaney? What type of searches have gone on?

CHANEY: You know what, nothing too much lately. It`s just pretty much like the water searches, air searches. But there hasn`t been a vigorous search lately at all.

GRACE: But there were very vigorous searches when she went missing, correct?

CHANEY: When she went missing, yes. They did.

GRACE: Yes.

CHANEY: In the water, in the air, but lately, nothing too much.

GRACE: To Dana in Washington, hi, Dana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the third wife was re-ruled as a homicide, can`t the family of this woman take him to court and sue him for death or wrong suit just like the Goldmans did for O.J. Simpson?

GRACE: Aren`t they doing that, Derek Armstrong?

ARMSTRONG: Yes, I believe they have retained a lawyer in New York.

GRACE: Yes. I think they have. And it remains to be seen what will become of it.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Joseph Ford, 23, Knox, Indiana, killed Iraq. Left studies at University Southern Indiana to deploy. Loved history, fencing, Greek and Roman mythology, studying the medieval period. Leaves behind grieving parents Sam and Darlene, widow Karen.

Joseph Ford, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/17/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Text Messages Show Casey Anthony Frustrated With Mother`s Duties

Aired November 17, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police suspicions confirmed. Tonight, the timeline is finally nailed down and it reveals that in the days and weeks leading up to Caylee`s disappearance, tot mom repeatedly complains to friends Caylee`s cramping her style, her social life. And it all comes straight from the horse`s mouth. Her own text messages do her in.

And tonight, the search continues in a local park, including in the murky, alligator-infested waters of the Econ River, all in the search for Caylee. And although the tot mom`s not cooperating with police in the search for Caylee, a Florida trial lawyer is now set to depose her under oath in hours. Will the tot mom finally be forced to speak? Bounty hunter, leading the search for Caylee, Leonard Padilla, agrees to a polygraph. But will grandparents George and Cindy Anthony and brother, Lee, break down and do the same? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities were being heavily restricted by her daughter, Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene, but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2- year-old daughter Caylee home alone. Anthony`s mommy duties were not allowing her to have fun with friends and caused the tot mom to constantly wait for her mother, Cindy Anthony, to come home to take care of the parenting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would have been great to get Casey, Lee, Cindy and George would have taken a lie-detector test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite swirling anger and personal attacks among the players in the Casey Anthony case, volunteer searchers continue to search for Caylee, hoping to bring her home and bring peace to a community desperate for answers.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Kidfinders -- it`s -- (INAUDIBLE) people are on our side. We believe our granddaughter`s alive and still out there, and we`re going to bring her home. You know, this other stuff that`s going on is just a distraction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. The suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide. He`s still insisting wife number four left her own children for another man, claiming she remains in hiding.

Peterson now plans to file for divorce. It`s all caught on audiotape. At stake, all the marital assets, including the family home. The prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, Peterson must now prove in court that she left him. But how?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I really believe she took off with somebody. Why am I going out searching for someone I don`t believe is there? You know, it`s a waste of my time. It`s, like, crazy.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former Bolingbrook, Illinois, police officer Drew Peterson, a suspect in his four wife, Stacy`s, disappearance, is said to be seeking a divorce from the missing mom of two.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always said that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bychowski.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: Well, what about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you, nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, he`s been blabbing for months. Now he clams up? Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Casey Anthony actually be forced to give details of what happened to Caylee from behind bars? Zenaida Gonzalez`s attorney, John Morgan, hopes that`s the case. He says he plans to depose Casey from jail, thanks to Anthony`s countersuit against Zenaida Gonzalez. In that suit, Anthony claims she was truthful to investigators. Now Morgan telling local reporters the countersuit forces Anthony to either give a deposition or drop her lawsuit. Morgan hopes to depose Anthony within the next two weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter was on the edge. You know that (INAUDIBLE) all these contradictions.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from the apartment complex. And they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you at all that day. Do you think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... do all this stuff?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter (INAUDIBLE) the car (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this while reports indicate divers plan to return to Blanchard Park to continue the search for Caylee in the Little Econ River, while Leonard Padilla confirms he`s waiting for the FBI to administer a polygraph.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A lot happening in the search for Caylee. With us tonight, the renowned scientist Dr. Henry Lee. As you know, Dr. Lee has been called in on the Anthony case, and he has examined the automobile belonging to the tot mom that still reeks of human decomposition now 22 weeks after Caylee goes missing. We`ll go straight to Dr. Lee.

But first to Natisha Lance, our producer. Her own text messages are doing her in. What do they confirm? I understand our suspicions are now confirmed, as to a possible motive, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the text messages confirm, Nancy, that, apparently, Casey`s mommy duties were getting in the way of her being able to go out. There were several text messages she had with friends between May and June, where in which time she had to cancel certain plans with them because she said, quote, her "mommy duties" got in the way. Now, one of these times was with Amy Huizenga on May 3. Another time was in mid-May, and another time, as well, was at the end of May. And then after that, she ends up going to that no clothes party, which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her in that American flag. And then at the end of June...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait! The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S, no clothing party?

LANCE: Yes. It was...

GRACE: No, I didn`t know about that. What`s that?

LANCE: It was actually the anything but clothes party. And in the text messages, she says that, You will see the American flag in all of its glory.

GRACE: OK. Before we go to Dr. Henry Lee, very quickly to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, at her point in life with a child, a 2- year-old child, what is she doing at a party that the cops bust up at 1:15 AM?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Hey, she`s an unmarried mother who`s still young, and she made an unfortunate decision when she had her child, and that`s to understand...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!

TAYLOR: ... the complete responsibilities...

GRACE: When I was her age, I was not at a party that was broken up by cops. I was in law school, working two jobs. Help me out here, Doctor.

TAYLOR: Well, she chose to be a mom, and with being a mother comes the responsibilities of denying what you want to do and taking care of your child. Clearly, that was a conflict for her. Her mother seemingly bailed her out numerous times. But as she said, the mommy duties became too overwhelming. She just wasn`t ready to be a mother.

GRACE: I just don`t see what you said, Doctor -- Dr. Janet Lee (SIC) -- denying what you want to do. I would think that what you would want to do is be with your child.

TAYLOR: Well, I mean, the reality is, mothers feel a lot of pull. It`s a lot of responsibility. Sometimes you have support, sometimes you don`t. But most of us have to make the sacrifices with coming with the decision that we have made to have our children, to raise our children, and to delay our gratification until later.

GRACE: With me, before I lose him, I want to go to Dr. Henry Lee, who is taking time out of his travel schedule to join us tonight. You know Dr. Henry Lee originally probably from the Orenthal James Simpson double murder trial, forensic scientist. He has examined Casey Anthony`s car. He is a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO ANTHONY DEFENSE: Yes. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: Friend.

LEE: I haven`t talked to you for a while.

GRACE: I know. I`ve been missing you, Dr. Lee. It`s nice to hear your voice. So did the car still stink to high heaven when you examined it?

LEE: Yes, when I examine the car, it still have the odor.

GRACE: Now, Dr. Lee, your testimony has been extremely impressive in the past. No one will ever forget the various demonstrations that you have done in high-profile court cases. When you say it smelled, is it true the car smells of decomposition?

LEE: The smell -- actually, it`s a rotten smell. It`s caused by any type of decomposition. The definition of decomposition, anything. It can be any food material. Can be human body. Can be any type of thing, decomposition. So the terms decomposed, human body odor, I don`t think any scientist can qualify to say -- just smell the odor, say that`s a human body.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Henry Lee -- everyone, with us, he is on the Anthony defense team -- I know that you have the highest regard for the Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee. I trained there myself for a period of time. According to them, and their -- their specialty unit, the "body farm," there was evidence of human decomposition. Would that be consistent with the smell that you smelled, Dr. Henry Lee?

LEE: Here, that`s -- you know, I`m a scientist. I only can address some scientific issue. I cannot speculate. Decomposition, because the trunk -- don`t forget, I looked at not only the car. Also looked at the liner, the carpet. Also looked at the content of the material. And I don`t know anybody informed me or not -- there are a lot of garbage was collected. A lot of material was collected from the trunk.

GRACE: Like what?

LEE: Like what? Like food, like meat, like pizza box, like cheese, like ham, box (ph) of soda, and all different material in there. So basically, a lot of maggots and a lot of insects, all kind of material mixed together. So I cannot really elaborate too much on what I found because this is an active case. I cannot really reach a conclusion at this moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know! The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, renowned scientist, Dr. Henry Lee. Shortly, we will be joined by another famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Lee joining us as he heads to the Philippines to accept a peace award medal. Again, thank you for being with us. Dr. Henry Lee, what part of the car did you examine?

LEE: OK. Nancy, I look at the whole car. Then I examine the liner, the carpet, the content of the car. I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Orange sheriff department, the crime scene investigator and detective. They`re true professionals. So the whole examination took a whole day and very professional manner. We did find some additional evidence, which was collected and handed to the sheriff`s department.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, do you plan on looking at any other evidence in the case, such as the hair samples?

LEE: Not right now. My initial agreement was just to examine the car, to look at the car. So I don`t know any other evidence. And of course, a lot depends on the schedule and -- to look at the hair or not. And I`m sure if it`s important -- Larry -- Dr. Kobilinsky is another excellent forensic scientist. I`m sure he can look at the hair, too.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, you stated that there was a lot of garbage in the car. Did I understand you correctly to say meat and cheese were in the car?

LEE: Box of -- you know, those (INAUDIBLE) frozen foods. So have some food residue there. But we did find a lot of maggots, insect activity and fungus growing. But you know, it`s a lot of (INAUDIBLE) information have to digest before we reach any conclusion.

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, you said frozen food? Such as what?

LEE: Frozen food boxes. You know, those packages.

GRACE: Frozen food boxes. Was there food inside of it?

LEE: Well, because right now, I can`t really say too much about what we looked at, what we found, OK?

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, I understand that. You are a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team. And very quickly, Dr. Henry Lee, I asked you about the body farm, which is a special unit there at Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee.

LEE: Yes. That`s not really -- the body farm, just people give that name. The correct term is Tennessee Anthropological Testing Facility.

GRACE: It certainly is. And I understand that you have the utmost respect for them.

LEE: Yes. Dr. Bass (ph) is a good friend of mine and -- but I doubt any forensic anthropologist can just smell the odor and reach a conclusion.

GRACE: No, it`s my understanding they took an air sample, and then with a gas spectrometer, then analyzed it and found human decomposition in it.

LEE: Right. Well (INAUDIBLE) it`s identified as organic molecules.

GRACE: Right.

LEE: It`s not going to identify human or nonhuman. Any decomposed molecules this (ph) consist of certain amount of components only shows some of those organic material present. That`s -- I think -- you know, somebody looked at this and reach a conclusion that`s human decomposition. That`s little bit too far.

GRACE: Joining us...

LEE: But right this moment, of course, we have to digest, to review the report and to found out what exactly it means.

GRACE: With us tonight exclusively, Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic consultant to the Anthony defense team.

Very quickly, I want to go out to Kathi Belich, with WFTV. On Friday, it was reported that Leonard Padilla was kicked out of the Jay Blanchard Park. There he was with volunteer divers, searching the bottom of the Econ River. That`s not true at all. He was not kicked out. There were simply other functions at the park, and he didn`t search over the weekend. He is resuming the search this week, is that correct, Kathi Belich?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. The divers plan to be back later this week. I`m not sure if he is coming back with them. I did talk with him, actually, about a half hour ago, and he couldn`t tell me when he might take this lie-detector test, either. He has agreed to take a lie-detector test. He doesn`t know why they`ve asked him to take a test, but he says he`s agreed to it and he`ll either come back to Orlando to take that test, if he has to, or an FBI agent in the Sacramento area will do that.

But yes, he was not -- he was told not to come back for the weekend because there were a lot of activities at the park, it`s very crowded, and they really didn`t want us and everybody else there, as well. So he is welcome to come back this week, as far as I understand.

GRACE: Well, Kathi, let`s get it straight from the horse`s mouth. With me right now, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. Why are you being asked to take a polygraph test? And to your credit, you`ve said, Sure, strap me up!

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: To be honest with you, I think sometimes, you know, the tactics of putting an individual like me in a car when you could just as easily stand there in front of 100 people and ask them questions is meant to either annoy or upset you, which it doesn`t. I`ve sat in many cop cars. I think that the situation about a lie detector-test being asked in front of people is supposed to make you uncomfortable or disconcerting and I got...

GRACE: Well, you don`t look uncomfortable to me.

PADILLA: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

PADILLA: I`ve taken lie-detector tests going back to when I was...

GRACE: I hope you passed them.

PADILLA: I think I did, in the military, many, many times. So something like this is probably...

GRACE: What are they -- are people alleging that you planted what was found in the Econ River?

PADILLA: I was asked that by reporters, not by law enforcement. But I think the main thing is the cross that was on the tree...

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: ... that two young ladies took pictures of back in August. And on the Sunday and Monday that we were there, one of our team members found two little... GRACE: Beads.

PADILLA: ... beads that matched the beads in Casey`s house identically. And I think law enforcement was a little, Oh, my God, how did we miss those? Well, my guys are taught to dig, dig and dig more.

GRACE: Well, with us, taking your calls live tonight, Leonard Padilla. More on the search and the text messages that confirmed what we already suspected about possible motive for Caylee`s disappearance.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Favorite places to go. I guess Universal`s one of them.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, as a theatrical thing, of course. But she liked Jay Blanchard Park, going to Lake Underhill and walking around the lake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whereabouts in the park did she like the best?

CASEY ANTHONY: The playground. She liked to just attempt to run around Lake Underhill.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My husband is a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot happening in the search for little Caylee. First of all, out to the lines. Raye in Florida. Hi, Raye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, very much. What is your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know why George, Cindy and Lee aren`t taking a polygraph just to clear themselves.

GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney Jason Oshins, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless. What about it Jason Oshins?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, it`s not to their advantage.

GRACE: Why? They`re not charged with anything.

OSHINS: It`s not admissible. It`s only going to hurt them and...

GRACE: We know it`s not admissible. That`s not what Raye in Florida asked you.

OSHINS: Yes, but it`s not going to help. There`s nothing good that`s going to come of it no matter how it`s administered or how it`s tailored (ph).

GRACE: Susan, agree?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If they have nothing to hide, they should come forward and help find the remains of this little precious girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She is coming home.

She is leading you to a place, but she is not telling you the exact right location to which apartment it is, because she is afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.

My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half truths, but she is not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

ANTHONY: The same dog that cleared our house, cleared them. There is no evidence that Casey has ever done anything to harm her child. She lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead. We still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. We have a tip now Coral Spring, Florida that Caylee is alive. Until I hear it from the authorities, it`s just -- it is what it is. It`s a bag of whatever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Yes, obviously, Cindy Anthony is ignoring the obvious. She`s in denial. Clearly, she`s defending her daughter. But can you imagine being hounded by the media every day, every night, like a pack of hyenas, chasing you up the sidewalk?

Out to the lines, Suzie in New Mexico. Hi, Suzie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: No, thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if this car smelled so horribly bad like, by all accounts it did, wouldn`t it have been noticeable to her boyfriend and other people, and how could she stand driving around in it?

GRACE: Well, you know, she abandoned the car.

Out to Nikki Pierce. I don`t know that the boyfriend ever smelled the car. Wasn`t she waiting outside the car with groceries in her hands when he showed up?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, when he showed up to rescue her from the supposedly -- that she ran out of gas when she abandoned the car at the Amscot parking lot. She was standing outside with groceries in her car so he never got near it.

And when she was returning the gas cans and so on to her father that she supposedly stole, she wouldn`t let him near the trunk, either. So by all accounts, she tried to keep everyone away from it.

GRACE: To Crystal in Delaware, hi, Crystal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I absolutely love your show. I watch it every night.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, with all of the sightings they had of Caylee in the United States, has anyone gone down to Puerto Rico and checked the sightings out down there?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Out to you, Natisha Lance, our reporter on the case from the very beginning. What about in Puerto Rico?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, in Puerto Rico, Cindy did do an interview on Univision Television to get the word out out there in Puerto Rico, but also the private investigator who has been working with them has been following up on all tips, all leads that are coming from all over the country, as well as Puerto Rico.

GRACE: So back to you, Leonard Padilla, when are you set for your polygraph everybody is talking about?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, Friday, I spoke to the agent there, Nick Savage, and he said that his polygrapher was on vacation or something this week.

GRACE: Well, there`s more than one, FYI.

PADILLA: Well, no -- I don`t know. I mean he told me that the guy that does the -- the polygraph test there was gone and would be back either Tuesday or Wednesday. And I hinted that maybe he wants to cover my expenses while I stayed past the weekend. And then he said no, well, we can go out to California, and do them out there.

And the thought came to my mind that I`d call Don King and maybe have the polygraph test done on pay-per-view and make some money to go back and resume the hunt.

GRACE: Boy, you really are something. OK. I will just leave it at that, Padilla, because at least -- no matter what anybody says about you, at least, whatever the motivation is, you`re out there hunting. You`re doing something. Everybody else is sitting on their duff, all right? So you`ve got that going to you.

To Mark Smith, polygrapher -- polygraph expert with New Jersey Polygraphist -- Mark Smith, how reliable do you believe polygraphs are?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, V.P. NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: It doesn`t matter what I believe, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, well, that`s what I asked you.

SMITH: The Department of Defense has done testing over 20 years, and they`ve shown that for specific-issue polygraph tests, it`s well over 90 percent. That`s the good news. The other good news, it`s the only method of lie detection that there is today.

GRACE: You know what? That was an excellent answer. You know, you beat me at my own game. Why should somebody take a polygraph, such as the Anthony family?

SMITH: Nancy, look at the -- what would the average person do? If somebody`s child disappeared or the wife disappeared, they don`t want the police suspecting them. The first thing they should do is, if the police ask, or even if they don`t, volunteer, get that out of the way so that they can focus their resources where it should go.

GRACE: I always point out -- let me go to Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct." Joe, great to see you again. Joe, I always point out Marc Klaas, because when his daughter Polly went missing, the first thing he said to police was polygraph me, don`t waste time on me. I`ll give you anything you want, go search for Polly.

Why isn`t the Anthony family doing that? And then as much as everybody seems to hate Padilla, he`s ready to take a poly?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, I think you`ve got to hand it to Leonard Padilla because there`s offensive polygraphs and defensive polygraphs.

I would never advise a client to do it, only because I think a polygraph is only as good as the person interpreting the results. It doesn`t detect lies or truths. You know it detects bodily responses to questions that I ask.

GRACE: Which are proven to respond when you`re lying. Yes.

LAWLESS: But it`s also.

GRACE: It determines body temperature, sweat, heartbeat. Yes, it detects all of that.

LAWLESS: Cold, stress, anxiety. All of that. I think it`s an investigative tool when someone who is in a position like Marc Klaas was, who comes forward and says, yes, give me a polygraph, because that suggests they believe in their own innocence.

GRACE: But why aren`t the Anthonys taking one? Padilla is ready to take one.

LAWLESS: Well, because at this point I think the police in Florida are -- the police who are involved in the search for Caylee are as much looking for suspects in a murder as they are Caylee. And I think they`re trying to find anyone they can.

I wouldn`t advise them to take it right now, because I don`t know how those results would be interpreted. It`s way too -- I think it`s way too far out in the investigation to let someone in their position do it. I wouldn`t advise them to do it.

GRACE: I want to talk very quickly about the possibility that the tot mom may have to finally speak from behind bars. Certainly not to police. But remember Zenaida Gonzalez, the woman that tot mom accused of kidnapping little Caylee? It turns out she had never even any of the Anthony family?

Well, her lawyer is set to take a deposition under oath, behind bars, of the tot mom.

Unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, Joe Lawless.

Susan Moss, will it work? All she`ll do is take the Fifth Amendment.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may not, because she doesn`t think -- she may not think she is guilty of anything. This -- with this deposition, she is going to need more than the neighbor`s shovel to dig herself out of this one.

GRACE: Jason, is there anything you can say to top that?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I don`t think it`s going to happen as quickly as us and the media would like it to happen, just for the -- you know, the sensationalism. There is a lot more legal maneuvering that`s going to go into this before that ever goes down.

GRACE: Well, Joe lawless, I don`t think it`s going to happen. Because when you know that the -- the person you`re deposing is going to take the Fifth, why would you go ahead and go behind bars?

I mean, she is looking at a murder trial. Why should she go under oath, and for a deposition?

LAWLESS: She shouldn`t, and she won`t. And I think the fact she filed a counterclaim suggests that whoever filed the counterclaim wasn`t thinking. Anyone in her situation should not be giving depositions.

GRACE: No way. No way is she going to give a deposition. I`m surprised the attorney even said it. But I guess he`s got to get it on record.

Let`s go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a consultant on the Casey Anthony defense team. You heard what Lee had to say about Oak Ridge Laboratories, the Body Farm. Do you agree or disagree?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I too am a very good friend of Bill Bass. Let me just say this. The conclusion of their report on air sampling says that it could be human decomposition. It does not say that it is.

That tells me it could be a lot of other things, which apparently is what Doctor Lee is saying.

GRACE: But it is decomposition. That is confirmed. They just don`t know whether it`s human or animal.

KOBILINSKY: That`s -- that is correct.

GRACE: You know, every time you give me an answer, you leave out a little fact, like that big study you told me about, how half of all of the cars searched turned up with chloroform in the trunk. And then I found out only one car turned up with chloroform in the trunk.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, one out of two and the fact that.

GRACE: Yes, I can`t believe you`re actually reiterating it.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that there`s a car with chloroform tells us that that is possible.

GRACE: And, and is what was the amount, the percentage of chloroform in that car?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it`s there tells us.

GRACE: Negligible, negligible, as opposed to highly saturated in Casey Anthony`s car.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it was there tells us it can form in a vehicle.

GRACE: I hope you don`t jump up at trial with that one, Kobe.

To Brian Reich, the deputy chief at the Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, Padilla is about to take a polygraph. Have you ever seen law enforcement or a bounty hunter take a polygraph?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I haven`t seen a bounty hunter take a polygraph, but I`ve got to tell you, it`s certainly applicable that he should be taking a polygraph. I mean he`s using the media to get a lot of publicity. And if I was running this investigation, I would certainly want him to take one.

GRACE: Are you suggesting that he planted the evidence?

REICH: I`m not suggesting that, but I`m saying I would definitely want him to take a polygraph if I was running this investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY: There is still a chance she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody gives Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, and satisfied in my mind that she is not out there, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Drew, on Wednesday I`m releasing a story that you`re meeting a lawyer to divorce Stacy. Can you confirm this?

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOTHER STACY PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: No denial either?

PETERSON: No nothing.

ARMSTRONG: When I interviewed you for "Drew Peterson Exposed," you mentioned that you would seek a divorce on the one year anniversary, you mentioned it was important to move out of Bolling Brook?

PETERSON: I might have said that.

ARMSTRONG: I have a confirmation that you have an appointment with high profile lawyer.

PETERSON: So?

ARMSTRONG: Who specializes in pre and post-divorce proceedings.

PETERSON: Yes.

ARMSTRONG: You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You said - you`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always aid that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bykowski.

ARMSTRONG: So it`s about selling the house and moving away?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Meaning you don`t expect her to return?

PETERSON: Why would she return to all this?

ARMSTRONG: So you`ll sell the house?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: What about the marital assets?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: How far away would you move? You mentioned Kentucky and California in my previous interviews with you for "Drew Peterson Exposed."

PETERSON: Out of the neighborhood is important for the kids. Some of the people around here are nuts.

ARMSTRONG: So Kentucky sounds good?

PETERSON: Anywhere sounds good.

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: What about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you. Nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. He is facing felony gun charges and a possible homicide charge, and he says the neighbors are the nuts? So he has got to move away from them? OK. That`s former cop turned suspect in his wife`s disappearance, Drew Peterson. You heard him speaking with Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," a pretty telling expose` of Drew Peterson.

And with me tonight is Derek Armstrong. He is seeking a divorce, it`s apparent. Why, so he can liquidate all of the assets and get out of dodge?

ARMSTRONG: Absolutely, Nancy, that seems to be the case.

GRACE: And I guess the police are just going to twiddle their thumbs and let it happen?

ARMSTRONG: Well, he seems to think they`re always twiddling their thumbs, I think.

GRACE: On what grounds could he actually divorce Stacy Peterson? I guess he`ll show her and divorce her without her being there.

ARMSTRONG: Yes, under Illinois law, according to my research, he can apply under desertion. He`s claiming she ran away, that she hasn`t been around for a year. I think you have to wait a year.

GRACE: What can you tell us about a mock jury that was created at the University of Illinois regarding the pending gun charge?

ARMSTRONG: I obtained some documents on the mock trial with -- they had 18 jurors who are paid, I think, $50 each. And I obtained the questionnaires afterwards, which indicated their verdicts and what they believed, how they believed the defense did on the presentation and also the prosecution.

GRACE: And what was their verdict?

ARMSTRONG: Five found him guilty, 13 not guilty. All of them said they were not swayed by his involvement or, pardon me, the investigation on his wives. And that they were solely based on -- basing their analysis -- their verdicts on the -- the case presented, which was vindictive prosecution as a defense.

GRACE: With me is Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed."

Kathy Chaney, with the "Chicago Defender," quickly, what more can you tell me?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: Pretty much just as Derek said that you do have to wait for about a year for abandonment in order for you to try to file for divorce. He had said previously that, you know, he was looking to move away, but, you know, he can`t do that right now.

And Stacy`s name is on some of the property, including the house. So that would be impossible for him to do with her still around, with him still married. So right now, it does point that he is looking to get a divorce.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, both out of New York, Joe Lawless out of Philadelphia.

Susan, what do you think?

MOSS: Giving this guy a divorce is like giving Hannibal Lecter steak sauce. But there is good news, because in Illinois there is very broad discovery rules. So if he wants to go and claim desertion, that is going to open up depositions, all types of discovery instruments to find out what happened to Stacy.

GRACE: What about it, Joe Lawless?

LAWLESS: My question would be, who would take the discovery? If she`s abandoned, they`re going to file an affidavit that they tried to serve her, couldn`t find her, there is no one representing Stacy. I think he gets a divorce, unless the judge wants to stay it, pending the murder investigation.

GRACE: Well, Jason Oshins, what would happen with her share of all of the assets?

OSHINS: Well, depending upon if there is a will or not, an administrator can be appointed for her assets, and they can be distributed either to the children, or whoever is named in the will. If there is no will.

GRACE: She has to be declared dead.

OSHINS: Yes, it`s -- well.

GRACE: But if the children get her share of the assets, he`ll get his mitts on it.

OSHINS: Yes, they`re going to declare her dead one way or another, either by the murder investigation, or by a civil finding based on the abandonment.

GRACE: To Derek Armstrong, who wrote "Drew Peterson Exposed," do you truly believe that murder charges are coming down?

ARMSTRONG: I actually do believe in the case of Kathleen Savio that there is an indictment case coming down. I have no evidence of that, it`s just that the hearsay law in Illinois would apply more to that case.

GRACE: And the legislature has changed the hearsay law. And how will that, in a nutshell, help prosecutors that are prosecuting Drew Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: I believe because of a couple of pieces of hearsay, one was Kathleen Savio`s letter indicating that if something happened to her, that Drew did it. And the other would be Pastor Scorey`s hearsay testimony that Stacy told him that Drew had killed Kathleen.

GRACE: To Brian Reich, do you find it suspicious that he wants a divorce?

REICH: Yes, I certainly do. I mean, if your spouse ran off and left you, you would think you`d want to cherish that memory and not end it and not have it final. So if I was investigating this crime I would definitely find that suspicious and want to put a lot more efforts into it.

GRACE: That hearsay rule about to pass the Illinois House is expected to pass, and very quickly, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, what do you make of him being so audacious as to speak a divorce when he`s suspected of killing her?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly in his mind either she`s gone or not coming back. And I think, again, it seems like he`s just not thinking about the children. They`ve had a major loss. And now even if he files for divorce, you know how traumatic that is to a family. So he`s got to think about the welfare of his kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what, there ought to be a law. Can`t you see all that money being funneled away to Turks & Caicos somewhere, Susan Moss?

MOSS: It`s possible but a smart judge will reserve the issue of equitable distribution and the division of marital property.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uhm.

GRACE: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. I was wondering if they ever asked somebody like Tim Miller to search for Stacy.

GRACE: What do we know, Kathy Chaney? What type of searches have gone on?

CHANEY: You know what, nothing too much lately. It`s just pretty much like the water searches, air searches. But there hasn`t been a vigorous search lately at all.

GRACE: But there were very vigorous searches when she went missing, correct?

CHANEY: When she went missing, yes. They did.

GRACE: Yes.

CHANEY: In the water, in the air, but lately, nothing too much.

GRACE: To Dana in Washington, hi, Dana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the third wife was re-ruled as a homicide, can`t the family of this woman take him to court and sue him for death or wrong suit just like the Goldmans did for O.J. Simpson?

GRACE: Aren`t they doing that, Derek Armstrong?

ARMSTRONG: Yes, I believe they have retained a lawyer in New York.

GRACE: Yes. I think they have. And it remains to be seen what will become of it.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Joseph Ford, 23, Knox, Indiana, killed Iraq. Left studies at University Southern Indiana to deploy. Loved history, fencing, Greek and Roman mythology, studying the medieval period. Leaves behind grieving parents Sam and Darlene, widow Karen.

Joseph Ford, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/17/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Missing Toddler`s Mother Unable to Look at Pix of Her Daughter

Aired November 19, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. We go inside the Anthony home, including little Caylee`s bedroom. What clues does it hold? And tonight, mom Casey`s movements, her actions, her behavior in the first days after her initial release from jail revealed, the tot mom refusing to sleep in her room surrounded by Caylee`s photos -- I wonder why -- watching all of her favorite TV shows, even watching her parents battle protesters right outside the front door, but never lifting a finger in the search for Caylee.

Mom Casey shows no emotion while she sits on the sofa, watching TV about the search. When she learns about evidence of human decomposition in her car trunk, the tot mom blames other people she claims borrowed her car and then simply leaves the room.

And a heart-wrenching look at Caylee`s favorite toys, her favorite pets, the Christmas gifts still filling her little bedroom unopened, and her favorite playhouse in the back yard, the same back yard where cadaver dogs alert to the scent of human decomposition.

Tonight, we learn the Anthonys all set for a blockbuster press conference where they claim they`ll announce evidence that Caylee`s alive. Psychics back on the scene in Orlando to resume their search for the little girl as tot mom Casey Anthony spends days and nights eating, lounging, reading, napping, ordering from the menu of high-end snacks, watching herself on television. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Having Thanksgiving come, it`s not going to be our normal, you know, Thanksgiving.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG (voice-over): The word "normal" has become a stranger to George and Cindy Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) You can`t come out here and face us!

D`ONOFRIO: Their lives have been turned upside-down since Caylee disappeared and Casey was arrested. There are the personal attacks...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer~! Baby killer!

D`ONOFRIO: ... and the possibility their granddaughter is dead and the young woman they raised for 22 years could be responsible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people want to say, Cindy and George are in such denial. Why can`t they just see it the way we see it?

CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a quiet close-knit Arizona community in shock, an 8-year-old little boy accused of double murder, allegedly confessing to gunning down his own father and his father`s friend, and it`s all caught on tape. We have the tape. An 8-year-old charged with two counts of murder one?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened with your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on. Tell us the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not! I`m not lying!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did (DELETED) shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I -- I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I think I shot my dad because he was suffering, I think. I think he was suffering.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I didn`t want him to suffer.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy`s lawyer says he believes the court may not accept the taped statement because he was not represented by a family member or an attorney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D`ONOFRIO (voice-over): When Casey got out of jail the first time, when the convoy of SUVs delivered her home and the garage door closed, the Anthonys told me that`s when they felt suddenly trapped, prisoners in their own home, when their mission was to continue their search for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey didn`t want to come in here at first. It was hard because this is where -- you know, this is where her and Caylee spent most of their time. We got an air mattress, and she wanted to stay in our room. And we have a big enough bedroom that she had a big enough space, and that`s where she stayed for the first week.

D`ONOFRIO: Cindy says Casey had a hard time being alone in her own bedroom, which is covered with pictures of Caylee, from those first ultrasounds to her birth and beyond, the two of them together.

CINDY ANTHONY: And this is Caylee`s room. This is very hard to come in now, and people are starting to send Christmas presents to us already for Caylee.

D`ONOFRIO: Her tea party table remains empty.

CINDY ANTHONY: I open the door a couple times a week. I was in her room earlier today, just sitting and reflecting and crying.

D`ONOFRIO: And her favorite pets, Tilly (ph) and Tinker (ph), run into her room, still looking for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I still have three bags of birthday presents in my closet. So yes, I`ll probably buy Christmas presents for her, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who took that exclusive tour of the Anthony home. Tell us what you observed, Jessica.

D`ONOFRIO: Well, you know, we started in Caylee`s room, and it`s just amazing to see that little girl`s bedroom. You were showing what we shot in there -- all of the presents, the presents in the corner of her room, on the floor that have just gone unopened. She was supposed to celebrate a birthday back in August. Obviously, she hasn`t opened any of those presents. And now gifts from all over the country are coming in for Christmas for this child.

After that, we moved on to Casey`s room and we sat on Casey`s bed. I talked to Cindy for quite some time. And the whole room is plastered with pictures of the child. You know, we saw those ultrasounds. We saw -- you can`t move a step in the house without running into a family picture, especially of Casey or Caylee or both of them together. That room is covered in pictures. And we know that Casey was an avid photographer. She wasn`t a professional photographer, but she took so many pictures.

GRACE: With us, Jessica D`Onofrio, who had that exclusive tour inside the Anthony home. What do we learn? We are taking your calls live.

Right now, to Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist in New York. Caryn, I`m not really that surprised -- I mean, I`m just a lawyer, you`re the shrink - - that she couldn`t stay in the room plastered with Caylee`s photos staring down at her. I guess not.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s also hard, Nancy, because she`s so removed from her emotions that it`s hard for me to understand why that would even bother her. It doesn`t make a lot of sense. This is somebody who really can`t feel the way we feel.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who was there inside the home after her initial release from jail. Did she have a problem looking at photos of Caylee at that time?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I don`t -- I don`t remember any photos of Caylee at the time in her room. And the reason that she wasn`t allowed to be in her room out of her parents room -- and incidentally George didn`t sleep in his bedroom, he slept on the couch -- was that Jose didn`t want her alone with Tracy in any other room of the house, so he told her to sleep in the parents` bedroom. But George wasn`t there. It was just Cindy and her.

GRACE: You know, I couldn`t hear you. Why did she sleep in the parents` bedroom?

PADILLA: Because Jose, her attorney, did not want her in any other room where her and Tracy might be alone. On more than one occasion, when he was in the house and they were off in a room by themselves, he`d go over there and grab Casey and say, There you are, yakking again, get out of there.

GRACE: Let`s take a look inside the Anthony home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s only one ultimate being that can judge another human being, and that`s almighty God. So anybody else, they`re going to have to face their maker one day. And George and I and Casey and Lee will walk up to our maker and not have any problem going into the gates of heaven because we have not done anything wrong.

And this is Caylee`s room. This is very hard to come in now, and people are starting to send Christmas presents to us already for Caylee. I open the door a couple times a week. I was in her room earlier today, just sitting and reflecting and crying. I still have three bags of birthday presents in my closet. So yes, I`ll probably buy Christmas presents for her, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Doug Burns. You know, Susan Moss, it speaks volumes to me that she cannot stand to be in a room with Caylee`s photos looking down at her.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And you know, for somebody who has gone to bars after the missing -- her daughter went missing, bought videos, cooked dinner, cooked, cleaned for her boyfriend, it seems sort of strange that now she`s having this conscience problem.

GRACE: What about it, Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t know why you would find that strange. Maybe she feels bad because the child is gone. I don`t think...

GRACE: But according to her, the child is still alive.

ROCKWELL: I said the child was gone, not dead. And just because she can`t be around the child, maybe it looks kind of human that she misses the child.

GRACE: Renee? Renee?

ROCKWELL: Yes?

GRACE: Photo (ph) of Renee, please. Renee, I recall distinctly that you lost your first husband in a car crash. You never had a problem looking at his photos.

ROCKWELL: Initially, I did, Nancy. I didn`t want to see them.

GRACE: Not what you said in the past.

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, in fact...

GRACE: You left -- you left the laundry in the washer that he mixed the white and the red together.

ROCKWELL: And everything was pink.

GRACE: And it all got pink. You left it there for a long time because you didn`t want to take it out.

ROCKWELL: I know that, Nancy. But what I`m trying to say is some people grieve in different ways. She doesn`t want to look at -- this is the most human thing that she`s experienced.

GRACE: Don`t try and pull over on me, Renee. You know this is an unusual response.

And to you, Doug Burns, defense attorney here in New York...

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: Doug, if she really thought that her little girl was just missing...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... and not dead, she would not have a problem just looking at a photo of her. That is BS.

BURNS: Look, there`s no question that some of these human responses teach us experts, seriously, what we think went on. And I agree with you, Nancy. The only point I would make in support of my defense colleagues is a lot of times, it doesn`t translate into a defense, you know, in court.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan. We were playing video games, and she -- and Casey was sitting there on the couch also, on the laptop. And then all of a sudden, there was a knock at the door.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Hey. Can you get me Tony`s number? Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Having Thanksgiving come, it`s not going to be our normal, you know, Thanksgiving.

D`ONOFRIO (voice-over): The word "normal" has become a stranger to George and Cindy Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) You can`t come out here and face us!

D`ONOFRIO: Their lives have been turned upside-down since Caylee disappeared and Casey was arrested. There are the personal attacks...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer~! Baby killer!

D`ONOFRIO: ... and the possibility their granddaughter is dead and the young woman they raised for 22 years could be responsible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people want to say, Cindy and George are in such denial. Why can`t they just see it the way we see it?

CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And we are still waiting on the Anthony family press conference, guaranteed to be a black blockbuster, in which they`ll reveal their evidence that little Caylee is still alive.

Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Have you learned what that evidence is yet?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, they say there was at least one sighting in Gainesville and other tips that they`re calling reliable. They`re going to be joined by Kidfinders, their private investigator, and also their lawyer, Mark Nejame.

But we heard from a spokesperson with the sheriff`s office today, and he said that, you know, basically, these leads that they`re following are not true. The evidence -- there`s one -- hope is one thing, but the evidence shows that Caylee is dead, and they are not going to follow these leads around the country anymore.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, has the Gainesville sighting been followed up? What do we know about the Gainesville sighting?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, we know very little about that one. The one in Coral Springs was followed up on and found to be false. As far as we know, the Gainesville one is false, too, but I don`t have a lot of detail on that. As Drew said, all we know so far is that these tips that the Anthonys are calling credible are coming in. But we don`t know what this additional evidence is supposed to be that they have, this blockbuster evidence. It`s anyone`s guess.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who has spent all this time inside the Anthony home. Did the Anthonys reveal to you what their evidence is that Caylee is alive?

D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely not, Nancy. We`re still waiting to hear, like everybody is waiting to hear. But one thing that the investigators say is, you know, If you have this evidence that this little baby is alive, well, give it to us, show it to us, let us know what it is so we can go get her.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Madge in West Virginia. Hi, Madge.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wondering about Casey`s boyfriend. When he picked her up in the car, did she have any type of smell to her clothing or anything? If she was in the car, she would have the smell with -- that was the smell that was in the car.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx. I know that Tony Lazzaro has been questioned, has cooperated with police, opened up his apartment for them to search. Did he mention any smell on Casey Anthony?

PETRIMOULX: No. And he talks about that time when he picked her up in front of the Amscot, she was holding groceries. The investigator doesn`t ask him about any smell, and no, he doesn`t mention that she smelled like any kind of decomposition or anything like that.

GRACE: We do know, Madge in West Virginia, that the clothes she had been wearing were left in the car, and they reeked so badly that mom Cindy Anthony washed them, thus destroying any forensic evidence that may have been on them, unwittingly.

Joining me right now, Tim Miller, the president of Texas Equusearch. Tim, welcome back. I understand that you have your members from Equusearch still there in Florida, and they are going to resume the search. Where are they going to look, Tim?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: You know, Nancy, they`re actually going over areas we don`t know if we did well enough, you know, when we were there before, checking everything twice. It`s going to be actually at a smaller scale, of course, than it was before. We`ve got 86 members down there, going to keep following up on this search, and you know, hopefully, one day, you know, find that lucky spot and bring it to a close.

GRACE: Tim Miller, it`s my understanding you have just come back from a search in which you were successful?

MILLER: You know what we did yesterday Nancy, we left Florida, went to North Carolina. We got called on one in Brian (ph), Texas, right there at Texas A&M University, a 23-year-old that disappeared 3:00 o`clock Saturday morning. They found his vehicle burned at 7:00 o`clock in the morning. We got there on -- we put people on the search two days ago to get everything organized. We got into town 4:00 o`clock in the morning, 8:00 o`clock we was out searching. We had searchers in an area where the car was found burned.

And we knew where point A was, where he was last seen, apartments, point B, where the vehicle was found. And Lisa Hoffman and me actually found his body five miles away from where the vehicle was found. So you know what? When you know where they disappeared from, and when you get in there in a short period of time and you`ve got things to look for -- and the only reason we found him is that we seen tire marks going to...

GRACE: So you did find him. Just off a successful find, Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch has his crew of nearly 100 searchers still in the Orlando area searching for Caylee.

Out to the lines. Beverly in Canada. Hi, Beverly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Belated happy birthday to your two little darlings.

GRACE: Thank you very...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard to believe a year has gone by.

GRACE: I can`t believe it. I count my blessings every day, Beverly. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, they`re adorable. I think your son looks like you.

GRACE: Oh, well, I`m going to take that as a compliment. I`m going to take that as a compliment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, by all means.

GRACE: The little thing, today was the first day he refused to take a nap. He`s just miserable. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. First of all, I got a comment. I think Cindy Anthony knows more than what she`s letting on. I really do. And I think she has an idea what happened to Caylee. She doesn`t want to admit it. My question, the fellow that said he`d seen Casey with the hat and the shovel, and there was a well-dressed man standing by the road, like as if he was fishing -- has anybody asked that gentleman if this fellow he was talking about, a description, his height, color of his hair, what shoes he was wearing? Has any investigation been done regarding that so-called man?

GRACE: Excellent question. Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what do we know?

PETRIMOULX: You know, that really hasn`t been treated as a credible sighting from investigators. We get a lot of tips in. We`ve had sightings in Tennessee and Coral Springs and Gainesville, Texas, all over the country. And basically, now they`re focused on finding a dead body, and they have said that, you know, a lot of these sightings are not credible.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll be right back, and when we come back, the psychic leading a group of psychics that are converging in the Orlando area to continue the search is joining us, Gayle St. John (ph). We are taking your calls.

And quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert," The search for a suspect in the murder of a gorgeous little 9-year-old Florida girl, Mya Lyons found stabbed to death July 18 in an alleyway yards from her own home. A person of interest questioned and released, a knife also discovered at the scene. Police say the murder location leads them to believe someone knows what happened. A $6,000 reward. If you have information, please call Chicago police 312-747-8271.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Stephanie in Kansas. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. My question is, with all these pictures they`re showing us of the Anthonys` home and everything, why isn`t there a picture of the baby-sitter, Zanny, with this child that she supposedly watched for three years?

GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Leonard Padilla?

PADILLA: There`s never been any connection between Zenaida Gonzalez. She never held the baby. She never sat her on her lap. It was totally a figment of Casey`s imagination that she came up when she ran across the information at the Sawgrass Apartments, where her friends Dante (ph) and Ann (ph) lived, totally made up, a patsy in case the cops found her, and where we believe...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter Caylee may still be alive.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You would think someone would want to be, quote, quote, "a white knight" or our hero.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On this day, the couple is frustrated and worrying in the kitchen.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`re not supposed to get upset.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They get a tip that Caylee was spotted at an East Orange County auto zone.

C. ANTHONY: We should have every right -- every right to be able to rule out or to look and see and to verify whether it is her or not. If they`re talking about delaying looking for someone, are they any better than my daughter, when they said that -- condemned and criticized her for waiting months, because she was afraid to go to authorities?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, an exclusive look inside the Anthony home, including the discovery that tot mom Casey Anthony refused to sleep in the bedroom with the walls plastered of little Caylee.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who went inside the Anthony home.

What else did you learn, Jessica?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Very interesting, Nancy. When we were sitting on the bed there in Casey`s room, we were sitting right next to this teddy bear, and Cindy Anthony told me that Casey needed to hug that teddy bear in order to get to sleep.

So, you know, we`re talking about this very steely, you know, what many people -- who many people are calling a baby killer here. And Cindy is describing to me how hard it was for her to sleep in that room. Cindy says she had to sleep by her side -- by Casey`s side several nights to get her to sleep, back in her bed. And that she had to hug that teddy bear for several nights to get her to sleep.

That was a very interesting piece of information for, you know, such a young woman who we hear on such an even tone, sometimes swearing at her parents in some of these jail house conversations. And that she had to hug a teddy bear?

It`s just very interesting, because you hear Cindy talk about her almost like Casey, this 22-year-old woman, is a 10-year-old. Very interesting.

GRACE: Back inside the Anthony home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Put a call into my attorney, so I kind of need to know where we need to go from here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter Caylee may still be alive.

G. ANTHONY: You would think someone would want to be, quote, quote, "our white knight" or our hero.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On this day, the couple is frustrated and worrying in the kitchen.

C. ANTHONY: We`re not supposed to get upset.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They get a tip that Caylee was spotted at an East Orange County auto zone.

C. ANTHONY: We should have every right -- every right to be able to rule out or to look and see and to verify whether it is her or not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But there is legal red tape, which delays them from viewing the surveillance video, and the tip never pans out.

C. ANTHONY: If they`re talking about delaying, looking for someone, are they any better than my daughter when they said that -- condemned and criticized her for waiting a month because she was afraid to go to authorities?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining me right now, Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of the "Body Hunters," she is searching for Caylee Anthony.

Miss St. John, thank you for being with us. Tell me about your search for Caylee. I understand you`re about to resume.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes, actually today we did resume. We had checked out some areas that we had gotten tips on. We did not find anything in those areas.

GRACE: Where did you search?

ST. JOHN: We had had a lot of tips, and people wanting us to go to the area, the Greenwood Cemetery Area, and Lake Underhill, and we did look through -- you know, at those areas, and check out the tips. We did not find anything. We did look in those areas.

GRACE: Did you take cadaver dogs?

ST. JOHN: We did not have cadaver dogs this time. We do possibly have some coming up around Friday, but we`re still looking into it, some local ones.

GRACE: How many psychics did you lead today?

ST. JOHN: Today was only myself, here and my daughter has been out searching with us, as well as our search coordinator and the volunteers. And we have volunteers that have been here locally searching in between since I left the last time until now. So we have had had people.

GRACE: We`re showing video right now of the search. The underbrush is so incredibly thick it`s very difficult to search.

Miss St. John, I know that you know many people do not believe in psychics, but tell me what visions or feelings have you had that lead you on your search? Regarding Caylee?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, as vague as it sounds, because we don`t let a lot of information out, because we don`t want to, you know, lead someone to go and tamper with any type of evidence such as, you know, destroy the, you know, crime scene or anything.

But we did see water areas. We did see woods. We have seen other certain very particular things that we`re looking for. That is what we`ve continued to look for.

GRACE: Like what?

ST. JOHN: We haven`t seen.

GRACE: What are you looking for?

ST. JOHN: Well, there was a certain type of flower that we saw. And we are looking for that particular type. Those are things that when we`ve gotten in these areas, we haven`t seen them.

Had we done a thorough search in the areas, even if we did not see, you know, those particular things, yes, we still did, we`re still a search team, and we need to clear the areas.

GRACE: With me, Gale St. John who is continuing the search.

Now out to the lines. Eileen, hi, Eileen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it`s kind of a little bit intense, and hopefully you`ll understand what I`m asking. I want to know if the detectives have watched the movies that were rented that had to do with child death to see if there`s any similarity and maybe that that would help them lead if she has put several of these scripts together to kill this child.

GRACE: Excellent question.

To Nikki Pierce with WDBO, we have video of Casey Anthony in a Blockbuster, renting videos around the time little Caylee went missing. We know that those videos dealt with murder, including a body in a trunk. What can you tell us?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, we do know that the investigators have taken a look at the topics that were covered in those, as you say one of the movies had a something to do -- had a scene where an FBI agent found a decomposing body in a trunk. And the other one had something to do, actually, with a mother abandoning a child.

We know that they are looking into those, but we don`t know if there have been any clues derived from them yet.

GRACE: To Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector -- Ron, thank you for being with us. I was listening to what Cindy Anthony had to say as to why should the search be called off for her granddaughter.

How long will police continue looking for someone alive when a murder one charge has come down?

RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, Nancy, I don`t know if they`re looking for someone alive, as much as they`re looking for any clues that will lead them to find someone alive or someone dead at this point.

Obviously here we don`t have a body, we don`t have a child, and they`re going to keep searching until everything has been exhausted.

GRACE: Do you think it is unreasonable for the Anthonys to ask police to continue looking for Caylee alive?

SHINDEL: Alive I think at this point, in my opinion, yes. However, I think the search should still go on, and whatever they can find may lead them to the actual answers in this case. I think that would be a worthwhile pursuit.

GRACE: Those movies, "Untraceable," about a kidnapper and killer, and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her 5-year-old child.

Very quickly, to Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner in Broward County, Dr. Perper, in your experience, after this much time has passed, do you believe Caylee`s remains will be found?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": In my opinion, it is that they are not going to find the -- the remains. I think that`s very low probability event, and while it`s possible, it`s highly improbable.

GRACE: And Dr. Perper, if they were found, what condition would they be?

PERPER: Well, the body by now it might be even skeletonized or it might be a little bit of soft tissue. But as I said, I don`t believe they`ll find the body.

GRACE: Very difficult to find a skeletonized body in this type of undergrowth.

Everyone, we`re taking your calls live. As we go to break, our thoughts and prayers tonight with the family and colleagues of veteran attorney Milton M. Ferrell Jr. He passed away Saturday.

He was the chairman and president of Ferrell Law, a Miami-based firm representing corporations and individuals around the world. He got his B.A. and J.D. from Mercer University, practiced law in Florida, in New York, D.C., Georgia, all around the world.

A pillar in the legal community, he was the president of the Jackson Memorial Foundation and on the boards of the American Red Cross, and so many charitable and cultural organizations, I can`t name them. All while being named one of "Worth" magazine`s top 100 attorneys in the U.S. but not just a stellar attorney.

He had a heart of gold. Gregarious, outgoing, would give you the shirt off his back. With a smile that lit up a room. He leaves behind wife Lori, and two children, Britney and Morgan.

Milton Ferrell, good night, friend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An 8-year-old Arizona boy who is accused of killing his father and another man faces two counts of premeditated murder. Prosecutors have released videotape now of a police interview with the child in which he admits firing at least two shots at each man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I started walking down the street towards my house and I saw the door open and I saw (bleeped) right there and I ran and I said, Dad, Dad, and then I went upstairs and then I saw him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then you saw him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was blood all over his face I think and I think I touched it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think you did touch it? What did you do when you touched it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just kind of checked if he was a little bit alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You checked if he was a little bit alive? And how did you do that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I kind of just went like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With your foot?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mike Watkiss with CNN affiliate KTVK in court today.

Mike, heart breaking. What happened?

MIKE WATKISS, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE KTVK, IN COURT TODAY: Yes, at so many levels, Nancy, this thing will just tear the heart right out of your chest. A little 8-year-old boy accused of shooting and killing his 29-year-old father, and another 39-year-old family friend two weeks ago tonight.

The little boy has been the subject of all kinds of international attention since that time. The day after the homicides, the two men were shot, that interview with police here in the little eastern Arizona town of St. Johns conducted.

A woman from the county sheriff`s office and the local police department conducting that interview, in which the little boy first says, basically, I didn`t do it. I got home after school, and I found my dad dead and the other man dead. Over the course of more than an hour, his story changes to where he`s basically saying that he pulled out his gun.

He never confesses to shooting the men being the first shooter. He says that there was some unnamed sort of faceless intruders who may have shot them and then he pulled out his gun and shot them to put them out of their misery.

You know a convoluted story, but clearly the child saying in front of those investigators on that tape that he did pull the trigger and shoot each man at least twice. They were in court today, trying to figure out what do you do with a little 8-year-old boy accused of what, in essence, is a premeditated double homicide.

GRACE: Take a look at this interrogation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times do you think you fired the gun? Just try to (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think twice? Do you think it could have been more than twice?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I thought it was twice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. You shot your dad twice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And then how many times did that gun shoot (bleeped)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice like my dad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the room where we talk to people and we make a promise to each other that we`re only going to tell the truth. OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That means I have to tell you the truth. I can`t lie. (Bleeped) can`t lie, and you can`t lie. Is that OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just going to talk truth, OK? We`re not going to make anything up. We`re just going to be honest, OK? Even if it`s bad stuff, OK? We just need to talk the truth. Just us in this room. Is that OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Robin Sax, juvenile prosecutor joining us out of L.A. -- Robin, I just don`t think this boy should go to jail. I just don`t think an 8-year-old should go to jail. But I don`t know what the answer is.

ROBIN SAX, JUVENILE PROSECUTOR: Nancy, I`m surprised, actually, hearing you say that. I thought that, you know, usually you`re the tougher on crime than I am. And in this case, I just think that it is such a terrible message to not hold, even as sad as it may be, an 8-year-old culpable in some way, jail, mental facility, something, but not nothing.

GRACE: Something, yes, but jail? A typical juvie facility for an 8- year-old?

SAX: Well, if the elements of the crime are there, and there is specific intent to kill, and there is calculated evidence and you have a confession, if -- it`s unfortunate, it`s heart breaking, it`s sad.

But it just may be the place for him for no other reason than to send the message to everybody that you are going to do the crime. You may have to do the time.

GRACE: Well, you know, how many other 8 years old do you think are actually watching TV and learning about this? What messages do you want to send? To who? All the 8-year-old viewers?

SAX: I think the message is being sent to all of the people around who are taught -- all of the parents out there who are listening, who are talking to their kids, all of us who sit here and comment on these cases and it trickles down, I think that these do become the subject of conversations around St. John.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Robin -- Robin Sax with us, juvenile prosecutor in Los Angeles -- maybe you`re right. Maybe jail is the right thing, and I just don`t want it for an 8-year-old boy. But maybe that is the only alternative. I don`t know.

Very quickly, to James Gannalo, firearms expert, with Stria Consulting Group, joining us from New York.

James, would the gunshot residue most likely still be on the boy`s hands or clothing? He wouldn`t know to get rid of it.

JAMES GANNALO, FIREARMS EXAMINER, STRIA CONSULTING GROUP: Not at this point, obviously, Nancy.

GRACE: I mean, immediately after.

GANNALO: If it was soon enough, if it was timely enough, they could have tested the boy`s hands for the presence of gunshot residue.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, in addition to Robin Sax, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Doug Burns.

Renee, weigh in.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are we assuming that everything we`ve heard is just going to get in the court, Nancy? The first thing the defense attorney is going to do is try to keep that out.

GRACE: OK. Agreed. But most likely, it`s going to come in.

ROCKWELL: Because?

GRACE: Because the child apparently voluntarily began speaking.

ROCKWELL: But how is the child -- that`s 8 years old going to even know that he has a right not to talk about it? I mean, just because he`s - - that young?

GRACE: And why are you assuming he wasn`t read his rights?

ROCKWELL: How is a child going to understand that.

GRACE: The same way you`re saying how is he going to understand he has got a right to a lawyer. I mean, he doesn`t understand.

ROCKWELL: And Nancy, what are we going to do, try him as an adult? Maybe we`ll let him represent himself.

GRACE: I thank you for the -- I mean, snarky comments, but I`m looking for an answer, so just -- you know.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, there`s no.

GRACE: . put a sock in it.

Sue Moss, you`re the child advocate. What do you think?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Look, he may be the Doogie Howser of murderers, but that interrogation was disgusting. They repeatedly asked him again, and again, did you shoot your father, did you shoot father?

This was not a discussion with a witness. This was a discussion with a suspect. He should have had an adult. He should have had a guardian. He should have had a lawyer in there and this was a disgrace.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I appreciate all of that, ladies. But the issue is the death of the father and the friend. That`s what we are talking about right now. You can all gnash your teeth and swish your tails about should he have gotten Miranda. But I am going to talk about what`s going to happen to this kid?

Doug, thoughts?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The reality is that he`s so close in age to ages where there`s no culpability, 6, 7. He`s 8. He`s not 16, he`s not 17. This has to be handled and adjudicated as a juvenile matter. The rules of evidence and everything else are relaxed and much less formal. And that`s what`s going to happen. And he`s not going to go to prison as an adult.

GRACE: Very quickly, Ron Shindel, how do you approach a juvenile interrogation?

SHINDEL: Well, there should have been an adult, whether it`s the parent, the one remaining parent, or a guardian there in the -- in the room when the child was interrogated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back to Mike Watkiss with KTVK in court today. What do you believe is going to be the outcome? Are prosecutors planning to prosecute him for murder one, two count?

WATKISS: Well, they certainly said that they had every intention of trying him as adult. This was really what set this in motion. Early on the chief of police here in the little town of St. John said that this was so, you know, premeditated, so calculated on the part of this little boy. They wanted.

GRACE: There isn`t any reason.

WATKISS: . to try him as an adult.

GRACE: Do they have any sufficient evidence to a motive?

WATKISS: The only motive that came out during that very lengthy interview with police that he had been disciplined, had been spanked a day before by his stepmother, encouraged by his father to discipline the boy. He had apparently some disciplinary issues at school and for lying at home.

But I think most of us when we come to a story like this, we think we`re going to find that oh, yes, revolution, there`s abuse, there`s this, there`s that, to explain it. There is none of that.

GRACE: Mike, Mike.

WATKISS: There has been some discipline in the home right before the shoot.

GRACE: Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike. What kind of a weapon was in the home? And how did the boy get to it?

WATKISS: It was his weapon. The father had bought it. The dad`s a hunter. He bought himself -- he bought little boy a .22 caliber rifle that you need to reload with each shot.

GRACE: Good lord. He gave an 8-year-old a .22?

WATKISS: That`s exactly right. Nancy. And a lot of people will tell you that in every home in this rural community there are firearms at hand. Whether that`s a good defense or not.

GRACE: Mike Watkiss, standing by from KTVK. We`ll keep you updated.

But now I want to stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Victor Cota, 33, Tucson, Arizona, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Army Commendation medal, National Defense Service model.

His friends called him Chico. He had a smile that lit up a room, loved singing, dancing, making people laugh, family. Leaves behind grieving mom Mariela, brother Gilberto, widow Liliana, two children.

Victor Cota, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/19/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Anthony Grandparents Call Off News Conference as Attorney Quits

Aired November 20, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Orange County police announce they are no longer looking for a live Caylee. Does that mean they`ve stopped pursuing alleged sightings of the little girl? And tonight, investigators drop a bomb. The FBI confirms Caylee is dead. And a high-profile lawyer representing grandparents George and Cindy Anthony walks off the job. That`s right, he quits. He only says he worked with grandparents George and Cindy if he could search for Caylee without restrictions. Apparently, that didn`t happen. As we go to air, the Anthonys call off the so-called blockbuster press conference where they promised to reveal evidence proving Caylee`s alive, but why?

And tonight, a deeper look inside the Anthony home. We`ve now learned mom Casey`s movement, her actions, her behaviors in her first days after her release from jail. But tonight comes word of an eerie and haunting song the tot mom listened to over and over and over again after Caylee goes missing, a song about leaving another soul behind, a song about the pain she, the tot mom, is suffering. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl!

I need to find her!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson says FBI evidence proves that little Caylee is dead.

CARLOS PADILLA, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S SPOKESMAN: You look at the evidence that the child is alive, there is none.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County authorities say they have stopped following up on all live sighting tips and have no reason to search for a living, breathing Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says they are confident that FBI lab tests on evidence found in her mother`s car prove that Caylee is dead. That finding, he says, is backed up by the grand jury`s murder indictment of her mother, Casey Anthony.

CARLOS PADILLA: We cannot continue to look when we don`t have any evidence whatsoever to indicate that she`s alive.

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee is not dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s living in total denial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson vanishing, upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, the suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide.

Bombshell. Just moments ago, a judge drops -- repeat, drops -- all existing gun charges against the former cop. But a secret grand jury reportedly set to hand down murder charges against Peterson in the death of wife number three. All the while, the former cop making plans to divorce wife number four, insisting she left her own children for another man and that she remains in hiding. Right!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Just moments ago, an Illinois judge totally dismissing felony gun charges against Drew Peterson after Will (ph) County prosecutors refuse to turn over their documents, the judge ruling moments earlier the defense had a right to see the documents, the judge even warning prosecutors if they didn`t turn the documents over, he`d have to drop the charges.

More developments in Drew Peterson. A new law just approved by the Illinois state legislature could be a crucial break in the case for prosecutors in the Drew Peterson investigation, the new provision allowing previously barred hearsay testimony to come into court if the prosecution can prove the defendant is responsible for the witness not being able to testify.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very powerful tool. No longer can someone terrorize a woman, threaten to kill her, physically abuse her. And if she relates this information to a third party, literally, she can testify from the grave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the case of Stacy Peterson, a minister alleged Stacy said Drew Peterson was involved in the death of his previous wife. This statement could enter into a possible trial. In the case of Kathleen Savio, she wrote a letter to the prosecutor that said Peterson would take her children away or kill her instead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It may have some small effect that there may be small pieces of evidence, some statements that one of -- Kathy or Stacy made to some friend or family member that may potentially be admissible because of this law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (SINGING): You`ll never know how much I love you...

CARLOS PADILLA: Tragically, we are confident that this child is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In some of their strongest language yet, a spokesman for the lead agency in the search for Caylee Anthony says any hopes of finding her alive are false hopes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search for a live child is over?

CARLOS PADILLA: It`s over. It`s over. You know, we did everything we could, you know, a lot of man hours, a lot of resources.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury has concluded that little Caylee is deceased and their daughter has been indicted in her death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her grandfather, George Anthony, said law enforcement has given up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you still confident, reaching out to people, asking for donations, given the fact that some in law enforcement are saying, That aspect of the search, in our eyes, is over?

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Well, it`s unfortunate that law enforcement, the authorities have given up. That`s a shame. It really is.

CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.

So forget about any evidence that has been...

There`s no concrete evidence of anything. There`s only circumstantial evidence. So show me proof.

Show me proof.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB. Am I to understand that the local authorities are now no longer pursuing sightings of Caylee?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, that`s right, Nancy. The biggest thing is, of course, Carlos Padilla from the Orange County`s sheriff`s office saying that they have given up all hope of finding little Caylee Marie Anthony alive whatsoever. They base that, of course, on what the FBI has come up with their evidence, and of course, the grand jury indictment handed up just a couple of months ago -- two months ago.

Also, spokesman Carlos Padilla says there`s really -- they`ve got to move on with their life. They have a record murder rate here in Orange County. They`ve got some unsolved cases to take care of. They have other fish to fry. So they`ve kind of given up any chance of finding Caylee Marie alive.

Also, another bombshell dropped today. Attorney Mark Nejame, the personal attorney for Cindy and George Anthony, says he`s out of here. He`s giving it up. So he`s no longer representing them, and a news conference scheduled for tomorrow has been called off.

GRACE: Take a listen to what Nejame had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: If somebody wants to write to somebody or talk to somebody or appear somewhere or to challenge somebody, they all may be valid points but they need to go through your adviser. What`s the sense of having an adviser if you`re not going follow your adviser`s advice? And so I`ve got to respect that. And so somebody needs to get a new adviser or they need to handle their own matter.

If I`m providing service as an adviser and -- it does little good if my advice is not followed. I think any client has got a case should not be doing interviews.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Everybody, we`re taking your calls live. In addition to local authorities, calling off the search for a live Caylee -- that does not mean that volunteers, that Equusearch, that the psychics, that Padilla have gone home. They are still there searching. But local Orange County sheriff saying they are no longer looking for a live Caylee. This as the press conference is called off by the grandparents in which they were to announce blockbuster evidence that little Caylee is still alive. Their lawyer walks off the job.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor out of Atlanta, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Richard Herman, high- profile lawyer out of New York. What about it, Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, what can I tell you here? Just because Padilla says, they call it off? I don`t know. It`s devastating to the defense...

GRACE: What did you just say? That doesn`t even make sense.

HERMAN: They said he was a spokesperson for the police department? Padilla?

GRACE: No.

HERMAN: How is he a spokesperson?

GRACE: No, no, no, no. A, that`s not what I asked you. And B, Padilla is not a spokesperson for the police department.

HERMAN: Please.

GRACE: OK, so let`s go to someone who can hear and interpret the question. Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think the attorney left because, obviously, George and Cindy weren`t following the advice that he was giving them. And maybe he didn`t want to be involved in this press conference, and clearly, they were going against something he told them. However, remember, Nancy, whatever they`ve told him is attorney-client privilege and he cannot reveal that.

GRACE: I think the confusion, Richard -- you`re talking about Leonard Padilla. There is a Padilla that is the spokesperson for the sheriff`s, Carlos Padilla, all right? It`s not Leonard Padilla. But again...

HERMAN: Thank you.

GRACE: ... that`s not the original question. Peter Odom, the attorney walks off the job with the grandparents. He will not reveal any confidences, of course, but he does say when he was signed on, he was told he could look for Caylee without restriction, even if the outcome was a bad one. Apparently, that`s not what the grandparents want.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And Nancy, remember, he`s a private attorney. He took on the job of representing them under conditions they apparently -- according to what Nejame said, they violated those conditions by going against his advice, and he has every right to walk off, particularly if his clients are being frustrating. There`s nothing to force him to stay.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Melissa in Indiana. Hi, Melissa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m just wondering why they`re searching in that one area and (INAUDIBLE) they got pings from her cell phone from all different places. Why couldn`t she have disposed of her in a dumpster or something like that?

GRACE: You know what? I couldn`t hear your question. Could you repeat the end of the question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?

GRACE: Could you repeat the end of the question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m wondering if she could have put her in a dumpster instead of where they`re searching where they have been searching and...

GRACE: What about it, Mark Williams? There`s been a lot speculation that she was, in fact, placed in a dumpster.

WILLIAMS: There was a dumpster close to the Amscot location where they found her car a couple of months ago. But thus far, nothing has been coming out of that dumpster, and that garbage has been dumped in the landfill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: It`s a constant battle between the Anthonys and investigators all hoping to find little Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m just going to be putting a call in to my attorney, so I kind of need to know where we need to go from here.

D`ONOFRIO: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter, Caylee, may still be alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D`ONOFRIO: George talked about his granddaughter in their back yard. It was once a spot where cadaver dogs alerted to the smell of a corpse.

GEORGE ANTHONY: To think about the days she`d go in her little cottage (ph), you know, and she`d ring the little doorbell, Ding-dong.

D`ONOFRIO: That sound rings in his ears, and so does the sound of his family when no one was being chased and heckled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Major developments in the search for little Caylee. Police come out and say the FBI has confirmed little Caylee is dead, this as grandparents George and Cindy insist she`s alive and that they`ve got evidence to prove it. Then why did they cancel their press conference in which they would reveal that evidence? This as their attorney, a veteran trial lawyer, walks off the case.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Jennifer in Utah. Hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. We love you. My girls and I and my son, we watch you every single night.

GRACE: And I think I heard one in the background.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course, you did. She`s just dying to get on the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, Nancy Grace.

GRACE: Hi, love. Thank you for calling in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Here`s my question. Number one, real quick. Padilla, I love you. I don`t care about your motives. The Anthonys should be kissing the feet of all these people that are out there helping. I just have a real quick question. Has Jose Baez asked for a change of venue? Do you think he will? And if so, when would something like this happen?

GRACE: Oh, that`s a good question. Number one, Padilla, apparently you do, in fact, have a fan club.

Back to the lawyers. Let`s see if they can be succinct this time. Richard Herman, I`m a little surprised that Baez, the defense attorney, has not asked for a speedy trial. After all, they`ve been whining about her being behind bars and she`s going to be proven innocent. And number two, change of venue. Rule number one, ask for a change of venue whether you get it or and not, and in this case, they probably will.

HERMAN: You`re right, Nancy. He should have made a motion for a change of venue.

GRACE: What is he doing?

HERMAN: But here`s the deal. If he makes the motion for a change of venue, he doesn`t get the speedy trial. That period extends. So I don`t know if he`s pushing for the speedy trial, it has to be done by April. If he makes the motion, it`ll be extended even further. But they don`t still have the manner or means of death in this first degree murder case. They`ve got a big problem here. This is not a slam dunk. And the science is junk science, Nancy. This is a very difficult case to prove.

GRACE: Yes, I remember when they used to say that about DNA and fingerprints.

HERMAN: How many air sample cases have you tried, Nancy?

GRACE: Zero.

HERMAN: Exactly.

GRACE: And before the `80s, I had never tried a DNA case, either. But guess what? It`s for real, Richard. Get used to it.

To Eleanor Dixon. What about it?

DIXON: Well, Nancy, first of all, it`s not junk science. This is good science and it`s good evidence.

GRACE: Yes.

DIXON: You know, what can I say about that?

HERMAN: It`s not going to be admissible.

DIXON: I think it`s going to be...

GRACE: OK. Ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-hold on. Hold on. Back to Herman. You know, Herman, I personally trained at Oak Ridge labs, and you`re not going to find a higher-tech laboratory in the country. It is phenomenal, and any judge in his or her right mind are going accept the air sample testing. Now, unless you know differently, instead of just sitting there throwing stones, unless you have a scientific or legal reason that this science is not going to be accepted, then you need to just shut your piehole.

HERMAN: There`s no level of trustworthiness of that test. You can ask Koby. I`ve discussed it with him over and over again.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I will ask Koby. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist joining us, out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Koby has been on many, many high-profile cases, and he is a paid consultant in the Anthony defense team.

Now, Koby, I have you on record stating that you deeply respect the Oak Ridge, Tennessee, labs, including the so-called "body farm." This is an FBI report. And I also have you on record stating that you don`t know of any reason to distrust the FBI. You did mention a case several years ago that somewhat tarnished their reputation, in your mind, but that`s all you came up with.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT FOR ANTHONY DEFENSE: Well, I have great respect for the FBI laboratory and I have great respect for the Oak Ridge laboratory. My concern is with the report on the air sampling.

GRACE: Why?

KOBILINSKY: In fact, let me quote right out of page 4 of that report. It says, "Common fluorinated compounds usually associated with human decomposition were not detected in the Florida trunk sample."

GRACE: And what about the next sentence, Koby?

KOBILINSKY: Yes. "It is possible"...

GRACE: Yes! Oh, yes, that next sentence.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, let me finish that. "It is possible"...

GRACE: Yes, let you start that because you weren`t going to mention that, were you.

KOBILINSKY: If you`d like me, let me -- let me read it.

GRACE: I`ll paraphrase it for you. I don`t have to read it.

KOBILINSKY: OK.

GRACE: It says Caylee was likely not old enough to have those chlorocarbons in her system, and therefore, they would not have been released.

KOBILINSKY: Well, they don`t know because they`ve never studied young people. But...

GRACE: And I`d like to refer you, Koby, to page 3, and I`m referring to the last paragraph. Out of 24 compounds...

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: ... found in mom Casey`s car, out of 24, 16 -- 67 percent of them...

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: ... are associated with human decomposition, not animal decomposition...

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: ... not spoiled meat from the grocery store, not a bad pizza, human decomposition.

KOBILINSKY: Well...

GRACE: Koby, respond.

KOBILINSKY: I will respond. Check page 10, where you will read the conclusions of the author of this report. And I will quote, "indicates that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with the decompositional event that could be of human origin."

GRACE: And you said it yourself right there, Koby.

KOBILINSKY: OK.

GRACE: A portion -- a portion -- because 67 percent of the compounds in the trunk, the air compounds, are human decomposition, only human decomposition, nothing else.

KOBILINSKY: This report does not clearly indicate -- this is a preliminary report, don`t forget. I mean, there may be more.

GRACE: Sounds like to me somebody`s doing a little backstroke right about now.

KOBILINSKY: No, no, no. There may be more evidence, but this report does not indicate that this is a human decompositional event. It may be.

GRACE: OK. You know what? Let`s go to another source. What about it, Eleanor Dixon? Weigh in.

DIXON: Well, Nancy, of course, this isn`t junk science, as I already said, and it`s just one piece of the puzzle. There have been many scientific tests done in this car -- the odor of decomposition, the DNA tests on the hair with the death band, as well as -- oh, gosh, I forget the last thing, but there`s many things.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: This is very hard to come in now and...

D`ONOFRIO: But as Cindy showed us around...

CINDY ANTHONY: I just hung up from John Allen.

D`ONOFRIO: ... she and George went back and forth on the phone several times with the Orange County lead detective on the case, John Allen. The Anthonys want the sheriff`s office to help them look for the child alive, but investigators are convinced she`s dead, and the tension between both sides grows every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would think someone would want to be, quote, our "white knight" or our hero. If there`s a missing child out there, a missing person, everyone should be wanting to cooperate and just help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today the attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony walks off the job, this as the grandparents` press conference to announce the evidence that proves Caylee is alive is called off, and the sheriffs announce they are not looking for a live little girl anymore. When we come back, everyone, we`re going to be joined by Gale St. John, psychic detective who was there searching for little Caylee.

But right now to the lines. Joanne in Florida. Hi, Joanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, we love watching you. We watch every night. My question is, as sorry as I feel for George and Cindy, they have evidently fed (ph) this girl, letting her lie and go along with it.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She couldn`t go to the authorities because she was afraid for the baby. What about going to her parents, who love that baby more than anything?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Weigh in.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think Joanne`s right, and what she`s point out and what we`ve seen with Mark Nejame today is that Cindy and George have adopted this radical, rigidified belief system that Zenaida Gonzalez took the baby. And the belief system is designed to ward off the fact that their daughter could possibly be a murderer. And now the belief system is extended to investigators and...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy told me Orange County detectives admitted to her the evidence they found in the car, the smell, the stain, the decomposition of human remains does not prove Caylee is dead or that Casey is a killer, and they`re angry the sheriff`s office has apparently rushed to judgment by shutting down the search for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Elizabeth Smart, the police department there thought that she was dead, but yet they followed up and brought Elizabeth home to Ed Smart.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: (INAUDIBLE) Emotions just take over sometimes. You believe your child. You put faith in and everything, you know? I wouldn`t wish this for anyone.

This is a tough day for us. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for whatever it might be, it`s hard. It`s quiet, the house is just too quiet. Just tears me apart.

Whenever these sightings come through and photos on are taken of a child that could possibly be my granddaughter I get excited, my hopes are out there. And if it`s not, they get to play a little bit.

My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be. I love my daughter. I love my wife, I love my son.

I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Do you blame them? Listen to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Finish your song.

CAYLEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S DAUGHTER: Are you tired, papa?

C. ANTHONY: Are you tired, Papa?

G. ANTHONY: I`m tired.

C. ANTHONY: I didn`t know you had (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Do you blame the Anthonys for believing? For wanting to believe that she`s alive?

To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, what more can you tell us after your exclusive tour of the Anthony home and all the time you spent with them.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, one of the things that I asked them out in the backyard was where is Lee? We haven`t seen him in quite some time. He was a fixture in this case from day one. He was out here very close, standing right by his parents, standing right by Casey every day, and the answer that I got from George and Cindy conflicted a little bit.

George said that he is right now trying to make a living. He lost two months` worth of income, just dedicating his time to this case. Now Cindy kind of interrupted him and said oh, he`s traveling right now. He`s traveling and George seemed to indicate that Lee is somewhere working here in downtown Orlando.

So it`s a little unclear, but there are some rumblings that something else might be up -- is a reason for his absence.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, what do you know about that?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE: I don`t know anything about it. Haven`t seen or heard from Lee since we were there back in August and have not discussed it with either Cindy or George since then, so I have no knowledge of anything.

GRACE: But when you were there, Lee was a staunch supporter of mom Casey.

PADILLA: He was -- he was definitely behind her all the way to the point where several times he just out and lied to us, but we didn`t call him on it, we just kind of let it slide to see what the purpose of the lies were, and subsequently amongst ourselves we decided that he would do anything to defend his sister.

He just wasn`t going to give up any information that would help law enforcement regarding her.

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, the presser, the grandparents had promised in which they would reveal the evidence that proves Caylee is alive called off abruptly, what happened?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: They basically said in light of recent developments and things that have happened that it was unnecessary to have the press conference. You know that press conference was supposed to be where they unveiled the tips and new information that proved that Caylee was alive.

They also backed off that. They said that there was no hard evidence that Caylee was definitely alive, but they wanted to get, you know, people together to let them know why they were still looking for Caylee, but again, that has been called off.

GRACE: Joining me right now the president and founder of Texas EquuSearch. He has team members still searching for Caylee. You all know Tim Miller.

Tim, thank you for being with us tonight. Tim, the sheriff`s office has announced they are no longer looking for a live Caylee and they are not following up on sightings of her, alleged sightings of her.

How does that jive with your search?

TIM MILLER, PRESIDENT, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, TEAM MEMBERS SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE: Well, you know, I -- met with the Anthonys and we agreed to disagree, and I said I would not support their efforts in searching for a live Caylee, but I would respect their efforts and I -- I personally today feel as though Caylee will probably never be found alive or dead and the chances are very, very, very small, Nancy, that she`ll be found dead, but it`s better dead than alive.

I mean, it`s just been a huge strain on that family, a huge strain on that community, and you know, I think it`s time to sit back and, you know, let the prosecutors do what they`re doing. We`re going to continue doing small searches on the weekend. We cannot put huge efforts in it anymore.

GRACE: Right. Because you guys have been there so much and have conducted such extensive searches. One searcher is still there amongst the others, Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunter." She is still actively searching for little Caylee.

Gale, you are there in Orlando right now. Tell me what your group is doing.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re searching some very specific areas right now. We happen to be in the northern half of the Orange County area.

GRACE: Gale, when you and your team members have had visions or vibrations about where Caylee may be, is it ever a live Caylee?

ST. JOHN: You know I`d like to say it is, but it`s not been, at least not for me which is disappointing. I have grandchildren and it breaks my heart.

GRACE: With me Gale St. John, psychic detective, and host of "The Body Hunter," still there searching for little Caylee. You told me where you`ve been searching most recently. Why that area? What led you there?

ST. JOHN: Well, we`ve had some tips in that area as well and some of the things that we`re finding right now are very similar to some of the visions that we`ve had and so we are now.

GRACE: Really?

ST. JOHN: . checking out some of those areas.

GRACE: Such as?

ST. JOHN: Well, it is in the area where there is water and trees and a specific type of flowers that we`ve been looking for which is important. We are not ready to disclose the location at this time because we -- today we are only about 50 percent of the area was cleared. So we`re going continue tomorrow to finish this area. It`s a vast area.

GRACE: To Tom Shamshak, former police chief and current private investigator joining us out of Boston, Tom, it`s great to see you. You know, Tom, a lot of people don`t believe in psychics, but -- and I`m a naysayer myself, but there have been cases where they have found bodies, they have found people alive that were missing.

TOM SHAMSHAK, FMR. POLICE CHIEF PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Absolutely correct, Nancy. Good evening. I certainly believe in the use of thinking outside the box and involving people like psychics. Don`t leave any stone unturned and they may generate something, but this really is a very difficult chore that is ahead of law enforcement.

GRACE: It is. You know, Tom Shamshak, at this point -- Tom Shamshak, private investigator out of Boston. At this point of the search anything goes, anybody and everybody, all hands on deck.

And back to Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Kobilinsky, what about clothing? If the little girl`s clothing were found this much later what would you expect to find?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I mean, there might be some important evidence in or on the clothing. First of all, how do we know.

GRACE: How would the clothing be degenerated?

KOBILINSKY: Well, it could very well be being exposed to the environment and, you know, it`s been many months since the child was reported missing. It could be shredded. Animals could have ripped the clothing apart if it`s an outdoor situation.

You may lose a lot of information, but there may be DNA on the garment that would tie it to a particular person. That`s a possibility.

GRACE: Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky joining us from John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Very quickly, case alert. The search of a suspect in the murder of a beautiful little 9-year-old girl in Chicago. Take a look.

Mya Lyons stabbed to death July 18th in an alleyway yards from her home. A person of interest questioned and released. A knife discovered at the scene. Police say the location leads them to believe someone did see what happened. There is a $6,000 reward.

Look at this little girl. If you have information please call Chicago police 312-747-8271.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Peterson, off the hook on gun charges tonight. Just moments ago an Illinois judge totally dismissing felony gun charges against Drew Peterson.

A new state law was overwhelming approved by the Illinois House allowing so-called hearsay evidence from witnesses who may have been murdered by a defendant trying to stop them from testifying.

This means prosecutors have a new weapon in the investigation into Drew Peterson who has been named a suspect in the disappearance of his fourth wife Stacy. A minister has said Stacy told him Drew Peterson had killed his third wife Kathleen Savio whose death is now being called a homicide by authorities.

State`s attorney Glasgow(ph) says the new law is very powerful and was passed with the intention of helping women who had been abused.

JOEL BRODSKY, ATTORNEY FOR DREW PETERSON: Obviously, we`re very pleased. We believe that, you know, the only real reason that the state would have not wanted to turn over the documents is because they would have helped us, otherwise, if they would have been of no help they would have gladly turned them over and we believe the judge assessed the proper sanction which is dismissal and the case, we`re confident that if the state chooses to appeal will be upheld and this case will be over with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: News flash, it`s not going to be upheld. The judge, Judge Richard Schoenstedt had a little hair fit in court today because the prosecution would not do what he told them to, but the prosecutors don`t work for the judge any more than the defense does.

So when the prosecutor is told by the judge hand over your whole file, your work product, everything, all your direct examination questions you`ve prepared, your scientific arguments, the outline of your opening statement, hand it over right now and the prosecution says no and what did the judge do? He dropped all the charges against Drew Peterson.

Now, that`s a fine kettle of fish, Judge Richard Schoenstedt.

Out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Richard Herman, I`m coming right back to you, but first to Joe Hosey with the "Herald News," author of "Fatal Vows" in court today.

Joe, what happened?

JOE HOSEY, REPORTER, HERALD NEWS, IN COURT TODAY: Like you said, Nancy, the judge dropped the charges. He ordered the prosecutors to turn over internal documents, memoranda and the like so that they could establish whether or not this is a vindictive prosecution and the Assistant State Attorney John Conner refused to do so.

He risked going to jail himself for doing that. He could have been held in contempt and the judge decided to dismiss the case.

GRACE: You know what? I hope my path crosses with John Conner some day. I want to shake his hand.

To you, Eleanor Dixon, current felony prosecutor in Atlanta, that is complete BS, you cannot force the state to hand over their work product. When I say work product, I`m talking about your legal research. Everything you`ve done on the case, your interview notes with your witnesses.

The defense doesn`t have a right to that any more than the state has a right to the defense notes. What the answer should have been, Eleanor, in my mind, correct me if you think differently, is for Judge Richard Schoenstedt to get off his bench and review the file himself.

See if there`s evidence to support a genuine prosecution or if this is selective prosecution of Drew Peterson. Right or wrong?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You`re exactly right, Nancy. They can take it in chambers, look at it, do what`s called an (INAUDIBLE) inspection. And you know what, I bet he didn`t ask the defense attorney to turn over his work product.

GRACE: You know this is a blow to the state, but from my understanding, to Derek Armstrong, author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," hours of interviews with Peterson. Derek, I understand that the grand jury is about to hand down a murder charge on wife number three, Kathleen Savio, who drowned in a dry bathtub covered in bruises.

I guess you saw that autopsy report.

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Yes, I believe they are. I have an inside source whose indicated to me that if charges weren`t filed today or the indictment didn`t come down today they would imminently be coming down.

GRACE: Richard Herman, try to take off your defense hat just for a moment. You know a judge cannot order the state to hand over its entire file to the defense or vice versa.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there is open file discovery, Nancy, and they were claiming.

GRACE: Not in that jurisdiction.

HERMAN: They were claiming a vindictive prosecution.

GRACE: There`s not open file in that jurisdiction, OK? Number one, so let`s get off that incorrect premise, but go ahead.

HERMAN: The issue is whether or not it was a vindictive prosecution.

GRACE: Right.

HERMAN: . against Peterson which it absolutely was and as a result of that, the judge made a direction which the district attorney chose to not comply with. That`s OK. He`s not going appeal the case. It`s not.

GRACE: Yes, they are.

HERMAN: It`s not dismissed with prejudiced. They can bring it back.

GRACE: They are appealing it. They are taking it up.

HERMAN: When they indict him for murder they`re going to add this in, too, and then they`ll turn over their documents down the road.

GRACE: Peter Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The prosecution doesn`t work for the judge, Nancy, but the prosecution should be working for the people. This judge realized that the prosecution was doing something unfair to the people.

GRACE: Which was?

ODOM: Vindictively prosecuting Drew Peterson for this trial.

GRACE: I want to see Odom`s face.

ODOM: And such.

GRACE: Odom, do you really believe that?

ODOM: Yes, I do, and the judge had every right.

GRACE: Why? Why is it vindictive?

ODOM: . to ask for that file. And nothing shows that more clearly, Nancy, than the fact that they wouldn`t turn over the file.

GRACE: Peter, when you were prosecuting, did you give open file to the defense?

ODOM: If the judge asked me to turn something over, Nancy, even if I didn`t like it.

GRACE: Typically would you? Would you?

ODOM: If the judge told me to turn something over, I would.

GRACE: No, SOP, standard operating procedure, unless you had a judge`s order, would you give open file, all your work product?

ODOM: Not only would I give open file work -- not work , not work product because that`s privileged, but open file discovery, yes, and I`d invite the defense attorney into my office to make.

GRACE: You just said if a judge told you to. How about when a judge didn`t tell you to?

ODOM: My notes, Nancy. No, no attorney would turn over notes in work product. However if a judge told me to do so I would have to even if I didn`t like it and the fact that they didn`t turn them over is suspect.

GRACE: With a judge -- you listen to every nut job judge down there on the Fulton County bench?

ODOM: That`s why they make.

GRACE: You think they know the law better than you? They`re appointed by the governor, all right? Just like every other jurisdiction and then maybe run for re-election some day.

Uh-uh, it`s on you to know the law and give it to the judge, not let some nut job tell you what the law is. Uh-uh.

Hold on. We`ll pick this back up.

Candace Aikin is Stacy Peterson`s aunt. Miss Aikin, thank you for being with us. What do you make of Peterson`s decision to divorce Stacy Peterson?

CANDACE AIKIN, STACY PETERSON`S AUNT: I think it`s kind of late for that. She wanted one like 13 months ago. So it`s kind of late for that now. I don`t think -- I don`t think she`s around to be able to divorce him.

GRACE: Why do you think he`s seeking a divorce at this juncture?

AIKIN: I`m really not sure what he`s thinking. Maybe -- I just -- I don`t know.

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author, what do you make of it?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I think Drew Peterson, always in his own mind, thinks he comes off looking like the good guy.

So if he paints a picture to the public that his wife took off with another man, what is he going to do, ringing his hands, all he can do is file for divorce. It makes him look fantastic in a really miserable situation.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOM STACY PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: What about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you. Nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . as far as a bill helping allow into court stories that Stacey told her minister that Peterson killed his third wife, Brodsky says the bill wouldn`t apply to that either.

BRODSKY: Well, that wouldn`t be hearsay, that would be double hearsay. That would be Drew that told Stacy told the pastor who told us. That`s double hearsay. Just, still doesn`t covered by the hearsay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hearsay is hearsay, Mr. Brodsky. Check out the law.

To Joe Hosey in court today with the "Herald News," is it true that when Judge Richard Schoenstedt dropped, the gun charges that Drew Peterson kissed his lawyer on the cheek and said I`m going to Disney Land?

HOSEY: He kissed them both. He kissed both Joel Brodsky and (INAUDIBLE).

GRACE: And?

HOSEY: Yes, it is true. And he had also said -- you know, he said I love these guys. Before that, he said I`m going to Disney Land. I think he had that all planned out. I think he probably knew how this was going to go.

GRACE: I`m sure Disney Land is so proud of that endorsement.

Out to the lines, Mercedes in Michigan. Hi, Mercedes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks for taking my call. I love your twins. We need more picture.

GRACE: Oh you`ll get them. I`ll get them for you online. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh good. I`ve been watching the Drew Peterson thing for a long time and I never miss your show. I don`t even go shopping anymore at night. I just come home to see your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And yes. And all with Caylee and everything, too, and with Drew Peterson, though, who in their right mind would believe him, saying that she would run off and leave the kids behind? Because even in a custody fight, the kids -- she would come back and kidnap them. She loved those kids so much.

GRACE: Bethany Marshall, do you think anybody would really believe that?

MARSHALL: No, and when you really understand the pattern of domestic abuse that leads to domestic homicide, the man is always belittling the woman, belittling her motherhood, her personhood, every aspect of her character.

GRACE: So I guess that`s therapy talk for no, nobody is going to believe it.

Thank you, Dr. Bethany.

Let`s stop, everyone, and remember Army Sergeant John Kyle Dagget, 21, Phoenix, Arizona, killed Iraq. On a first tour, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart, Army Service ribbon. Loved football, outdoors, hunting, fishing, camping rafting, volunteering at nursing homes.

Leaves behind parents Jack and Colleen, three sisters.

John Kyle Daggett, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/20/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

New Anthony Grandparents Interrogation Videotapes Released

Aired November 21, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 22 long weeks now.
Major bombshells tonight. Hours of FBI interviews of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony just released. Tonight, we will show you the new videotapes, and you will be shocked by what Cindy and George tell the FBI. The grandparents wrestle with theories about what they believe happened to Caylee.

Plus, they weigh in on tot mom Casey`s web of lies, the so-called nanny she claims kidnapped Caylee, her secret wild lifestyle, and the horrible scent of death in mom Casey`s car. We even learn little Caylee herself never mentioned a Zanny. And perhaps the most upsetting bombshell, not only did mom Casey steal money from her parents, she also robbed little Caylee`s piggy bank and raided the baby`s college fund.

Tonight, even after police announce they no longer are looking for Caylee because they think she`s dead, there has been yet another alleged sighting of the little girl in Orlando. The defense reveals they will call some famous forensic experts to the stand, officially releasing their witness list. But the big question still remains, where, oh, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: After we pay for everything, the gentleman comes out. I can`t remember what his name is. We watch (ph) a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and -- the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I got a sick feeling for a second because the car was all closed up, and if you`re from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor, you don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you know this because?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Being a deputy sheriff for all the years I was, I have investigative...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) So anyhow, as I went around the driver`s side, the guy was almost as close to you and I, walking right behind me. And as I opened up the door, that smell took my breath away. I mean, it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and pulled clear (ph) from that (INAUDIBLE) open the passenger door (INAUDIBLE) let this thing vent. And it was that overpowering.

The stain that was in the trunk of my daughter`s car -- (INAUDIBLE) got it home, and I mean, I opened up the trunk. We had the windows rolled down, the sun roof open. Instantaneously, that gets in your house just like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, bombshells in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Anthony.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I opened up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter and my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. The guy reached inside, This is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped -- dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you convinced -- based on what you know as a law enforcement officer in your background, are you convinced in any way that the maggots were solely caused by the pizza, or did you think that there`s a distinct odor that you recognized that day that was in the car?

And you don`t have to answer it, if you don`t want to. But I`m just - - I`m putting it out there based on what I know, and I`m asking you your opinion.

GEORGE ANTHONY: That distinct odor is something you never forget. That distinct odor, I -- I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk, and I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t want to believe that it`s any other kind of - - any other thing but that pizza. That`s all I`m trying to believe (INAUDIBLE) but deep inside my heart, it was not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not your granddaughter?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, let`s put it this way. I`m hoping it`s not. I want to believe it`s not. I mean, I`m trying to believe it`s not. But then again, like I said, and you guys know, once you smell that smell, you just -- you never get over it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fast-breaking developments tonight in the Caylee Anthony investigation. For the very latest, let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, news director with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what is the very latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Jane, some breaking news, as we`ve stated, that there`s -- the state attorney`s office today releasing crucial FBI video of interviews with George and Cindy Anthony which took place right after Casey was arrested, their daughter, Casey. Those interviews, two different people, really, George Anthony saying that he just can`t put the pieces together. He`s dumbfounded by anything. Cindy Anthony, the mother, trying to defend Casey any way that she could, trying to put the pieces together.

One other thing, Jane, the lowest of the low. In some parts of the country, they would say lower than a snake`s belly. The deal is, Casey Anthony, we have found out, stole from her daughter`s piggy bank, Caylee Anthony`s piggy bank. She had a coin collection there. Also, apparently, Casey got on line and stole money from a college fund that was set up for Caylee by her grandfather, George. There was $400 in there, now there`s only 5 bucks.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is absolutely stomach-churning that a mother, any mother, would steal from her own daughter`s piggy bank. Boy, does that speak volumes, doesn`t it. Now, there`s so much tape we want to get to. There`s new information in this tape. We want you to hear it for yourself. Let`s start with George talking about that smell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition. I started to turn it, and I`m, like, No, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong. I looked in the back seat a little bit more. I didn`t see anything. I looked around as quick as I could. I scanned. I`m looking for everything.

And I told the guy, I said, Can you walk around with me to the rear of the car? He says, Why? And I said, Man, there is a smell in this car, and I`ve just got to know where it`s coming from. And as I walked around the back of that car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, Please don`t let it be either one of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, what`s fascinating about this, Tad DiBiase -- who`s a former prosecutor who specializes in prosecuting "no body" homicides -- is that this grandfather is saying, basically, That smell, I was a cop for years, I know that smell. But later, he`s, like, That`s not my granddaughter in that car, that smell wasn`t my granddaughter. So he`s telling different stories to different people. Would you say this is the more honest George, the more straightforward George talking to the FBI?

TAD DIBIASE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think so, Jane. I mean, I have to say, I share the opinion that once you smell a decomposing body, you do never forget the smell. And I think we see throughout this tape George speaking very honestly. He`s not filtering his thoughts as to how it`s going to affect the investigation into his daughter, but he gives his honest thoughts. And I think they`re quite telling. A lot of the things he says on this tape are, frankly, going to be very difficult and damning against Casey.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, we have to, as we look at these tapes, imagine -- the trial is supposedly coming up January 5. We`ll see if it ever happens on that date. That`s doubtful. But these tapes will undoubtedly be played in some way, shape or form in that trial. So as you watch them, think about how it`s going to be used by the prosecution and the defense.

Now we`re going to talk -- listen to George talking about the stain in the trunk. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you saw a stain in the trunk?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. Probably about the size of a basketball, maybe. Just a little bit -- not completely circular. It had some...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not a circle.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE ANTHONY: To draw a particular design on it, that I couldn`t do. But I can tell you, I did stick my nose as close as I could get to it, and man, it`s a very strong odor. It`s right where the spare tire is at, the spare tire cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it where the pizza was sitting? It was not where the pizza was sitting.

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was more in the center of the trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Dr. David Posey, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, he`s talking about the stain in the trunk, which was approximately the size of a basketball, not totally circular, but somewhat. And it has this liquid that produced a strong odor. What are we talking about there, and why was there no DNA found in that?

DR. DAVID POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, in order to have DNA, you have to have cellular material, and the liquid could be just purged from the body or whatever the decomposing object is. And they`re looking for the cellular evidence. That`s why they`ve taken the car in and they`ve basically taken it apart. You have to have some cellular matter, then you can find some -- hopefully, find some DNA, provided it`s not degraded.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just to translate that into people speak, what I understand is that sometimes a body, when it`s dead, will exude something called cadavering fluid, which does not create -- does not contain DNA, is that correct?

POSEY: That`s correct. It`s just purge. It`s water, maybe some, you know, like, salt materials that has no...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But can`t you tell it`s a human being?

POSEY: Not from that by itself, no. The smell gives you a pretty good idea, but that`s where the cadaver dogs come in and then they`re very helpful. They can differentiate between human and non-human. But a lot of times, you may smell a dead cat or a dead rat or a coon or something, it`ll have a similar smell, but believe me, the body smell is even different from that of an animal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you just heard George, who was a cop for many years, talking about that smell. And it`s absolutely fascinating to me that we have all these pieces of forensics lining up, but they`re all kind of slivers. None of them is an outright DNA match with this missing child.

Now, what`s also absolutely shocking is this whole notion that tot mom Casey raided her child`s piggy bank. Listen to what George has to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. And I know she has been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping a buck, 5 bucks, quarters. You know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy. And it`s a good-size piggy bank. And you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I -- it just boggles my mind. You know, a kid`s piggy bank -- Casey is taking money, quarters, out of the kid`s piggy bank. It really blows my mind.

Lillian Glass -- we`ve got to bring the shrink in to analyze that behavior. You`re a psychologist and body language expert. What do you make of a mom taking money out of her own child`s piggy bank?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it shows, Jane, how selfish she is and how heartless she is to take money from a -- her own child, her own baby? Unacceptable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I looked around the car, first I thing I looked around was to make sure all the tires were on. And I took a quick glance inside before I even opened it up, see if there was anything there I could see. I could see my granddaughter`s carseat in the back, in the passenger side rear. I could see my daughter`s purse, clothes. And it was in disarray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Purse, you mean like her regular purse?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Her regular purse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was her driver`s license and stuff in it, do you recall?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So wherever she was, she was without any ID, to your knowledge.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There was no -- yes, she didn`t have this kind of stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that had to be at least from the 30th because that`s when they originally towed it.

GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was the 15th. So for two weeks, she`d been out and about with no ID, no nothing.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as you knew.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Bombshells tonight as we bring you just-released videotape of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony talking to the FBI about their granddaughter, Caylee`s, disappearance. We`re going to get to some more tape in just a moment.

But the phone lines are going crazy over this latest development. Monica in Georgia, what`s your thought or question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was wondering -- Leonard Padilla had mentioned the other night that Casey had said that nobody had found her clothes yet. And when she stole the gas cans out of her parents` shed, has anybody thought that maybe she burned Caylee`s clothes or anything?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that is excellent! Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, your associate spent time with Casey, and allegedly, Casey said something to that associate that on its face is very incriminating. Tell us about it.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s correct. She said, They haven`t even found her clothes yet. That -- if you think all of the things through in detail from the 24th, when her dad almost found the trunk -- what was in the trunk, and the 25th, when we believe she took the body and put it in Blanchard Park, we believe she by that time she had it in a bag, she ripped the bag, that`s the stain in the car, and also got it on herself while she was walking down to the waterfront. There was no burning of the child. It was in the water, is where she placed her. There`s no doubt about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but this caller said burning of the clothes.

PADILLA: No. I don`t think so. I think what she did is, she threw the clothes somewhere just to get rid of them because on the 18th is when she had taken the clothes off the child and put the child in the pool to make it look like a drowning. She didn`t have the clothes on after that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is -- yes, these are your theories. And of course...

PADILLA: Correct. They`re theories.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... the timeline is very hard to figure out. All we know is that George last saw her on June 16. And then there was this frantic 911 call that Cindy made about -- well, it was a long time after that. I mean, there was a huge gap of about a month between the time that Caylee was last seen and when Cindy finally says, Enough, I`m going to call cops. I`ve got to find out where my daughter is.

Let`s listen to Cindy talking to the FBI about that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just throwing it out there because that`s what she`s asking us to believe.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Well, I`m normally a very rational, you know, person that would think things through before I would speak...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CINDY ANTHONY: ... OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s very evident.

CINDY ANTHONY: Now, it`s very obvious that on those 911 calls, I was scared (DELETED) because I didn`t know what was going on and I did and said whatever I need to do to get help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when you did...

CINDY ANTHONY: So if she`s saying anything...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... made sense.

CINDY ANTHONY: But we don`t...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what she`s doing doesn`t make sense.

CINDY ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense, but it would if we find Caylee. If we find Caylee and she`s with this person, then isn`t going to make sense that she was trying to...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was giving us clues that would actually lead us to this person, but all the clues that she`s given have led us away from the situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we should bring in all the lawyers at this time because what I`m hearing there -- and I`d like to get, certainly, the defense attorneys weighing in -- is a mom who is really frantically trying to come up with an explanation that isn`t the bad explanation that she doesn`t want to believe. It`s almost, Dan Horowitz, like she`s not only enabling but sort of co-dependent on her daughter. And because it`s her daughter, she can`t imagine what is the horrible truth.

DAN HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Jane, you`ve really set forth the best defense theory in this case. Even though it`s a no-body case, I think we all know and understand that Caylee is dead, even though we don`t want her to be, and that her mother had something to do with it.

But this dysfunctional grandmother, this clueless family that goes back and forth, theory to theory, they`re all trying to cover something up. And that`s the mental state defense. A dysfunctional family, a mother who would never normally kill a child, even if she does take money from the piggy bank, that`s where the defense should be going. And I hope that`s where the defense does go in January, when trial starts.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m sort of confused here. Penny Douglas Furr, that wouldn`t seem to me to be a defense. I would think that would be the prosecution argument, that essentially, this is a mom trying to avoid what the reality is about what her daughter did.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the grandmother has no clue what happened and she doesn`t want to believe that her daughter is involved. So she`s looking for any other reasonable alternative.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, we have more of this shocking tape, and a lot of it is really about suspicious behavior by Casey and her parents` reaction or description of that. Listen to a very suspicious incident involving gas cans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I said, You know, Casey -- I said, yes, I said, the cans are out (ph). So I said, yes, the cans are gone. So me, I`m trying to play the father and grandfather, but I`m also trying to be this old detective guy again. I said, Hey, look, I said, in the trunk of your car is one of these metal wedges, you jack up a car and you put a wedge underneath the tire so the car doesn`t roll back. Oh, yes, Dad, I know where it`s at, I`ll get it out for you.

I said, No, that`s OK, I got an extra key for the car. I`ll just go back and get it. No, Dad, I`ll get it for you. I mean, it`s safe (ph) little back-and-forth type thing. As I`m getting ready to go out through my garage -- we have an inner garage door, you know, to...

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I`m getting ready to go out the door, my daughter just blows past me, says, Dad, I`ll get it. And I said, Casey, I`m capable of getting it out. I know where it`s at, you know, trying to be -- as I`m still walking out through the garage with my daughter down the driveway, she says, Dad, I`ll get it. She keeps on pushing her hand back, like, Don`t come close, you know, type deal.

Finally, I get back to the back of the car, and I said, Casey, she opens up the trunk and she says, Here`s your -- starts with an F and ends with an N. I`m not going to say what the word is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I am actually calculating when this is happening. According to what we were seeing there, that -- he`s describing something that happened on June 24. This is right in that intermediary time before Cindy calls 911 and reports to police, Hey, something`s gone wrong, this car smells like a dead body.

I mean, why would Casey not let her dad in the car, if she had nothing to hide? And I direct that to Vince Velazquez.

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA: I mean, it`s obvious that George is torn between a career law enforcement guy and a father. His gut feeling told him that there`s something in that trunk, and she didn`t want him to go in there because she knew what was in there. And it was the smell of death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it like between Casey and Cindy?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I think it was a very loving relationship. I mean, I`m sure they had their moments. It could have been a temperament issue or something like that. But I don`t think it was anything that was ever...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overly contentious?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Contentious, right. I don`t think it ever was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace, as we dissect brand-new shocking FBI tapes of George and Cindy Anthony talking to the FBI. And this tape is coming in as we speak. We`ve been cutting it and bringing it to you almost raw.

The phone lines lighting up. Margaret in Missouri, your thought or question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, we know that Cindy had access to Amy`s car because that`s where she got the checks from. Was she driving Amy`s car and maybe left Caylee decomposing in the back of her car for a time period?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, interesting. Drew Petrimoulx, reporter WDBO radio, your thoughts on that.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, she was driving Amy`s car while Amy was on a vacation. But you know, I`m sure that investigators have looked in the back of that car, and if there was any signs of a decomposing body, that would be, you know, a huge part of this case and that would be something that we would obviously know about at this point.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition, I started to turn it, and I`m like, no, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong.

I looked in the back seat, before I didn`t see anything. I look around and scan, and now I`m looking for everything. And I told the guy, I said, can you walk around with me to the rear of the car, and he said why. And I said, man, there is a smell in this car and I want to know where it`s coming from.

And as I walk around the back of the car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, please don`t let it be either one of them.

The person who is in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Bombshells tonight, as we show you new videotape just released of missing Caylee`s grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, talk to the FBI. Their shocking comments.

Meantime, more bombshells, word that famous scientist Dr. Henry Lee is set to appear as a defense witness for Casey Anthony during her trial for the murder of her missing tot.

You remember Dr. Lee, right? He`s worked on the most famous cases of our time. O.J. Simpson, JonBenet Ramsey, Scott Peterson, Phil Spector. So does Dr. Lee`s involvement with this case -- let`s bring in the entire legal panel we have.

Does Dr. Lee`s involvement with this case mean Casey Anthony`s murder trial will become another one of those trials of the centuries?

Let`s start with Dan Horowitz on that one. We both covered a big case together, the Michael Jackson case. You know how crazy those big cases get.

DAN HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I still remember you walking around with so many files of papers there. You worked harder than almost everybody there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t remind me. Thank you.

HOROWITZ: But, you know, this will be a mega case. And I think, ultimately, it`s going to end in a conviction for murder when it shouldn`t because when you fight the fact that the child is dead, and when you argue that the mother had nothing to do with it, when it`s so clear she did, all you`re doing is setting the jury up to say, OK, the heck with you.

We think you did it, and it must have been on purpose, or you would have told us about the accident or the outburst of anger. You would have given us the real reason why it happened. So it`s going to be a mega case, but it should really be maybe even a plea bargain.

I`m really sorry that it`s getting this much media attention.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney, when I think of big cases, I always go back to O.J., who started so many trends. And I think of the dream team saying garbage in, garbage out and also blaming the police and charging police misconduct.

And I -- I kind of think that`s going to happen in this case, because the forensics are not iron clad. You`re talking about air samples. So how easy is it to argue garbage in, garbage out with air samples, right?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is exactly what they will argue, because we have great scientists for the defense. The only evidence the state has is the scientific evidence. I don`t know of another case that has been prosecuted and found guilty on an air sample.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now.

DOUGLASS FURR: This would be the first.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tad Dibaise, former prosecutor, you specialize in prosecuting no-body homicide cases. Here is a fascinating tidbit. One of the defense attorneys has asked the judge for access to internal records from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office to track down leaks.

But I`m wondering, are they on the road to that police misconduct type of trial that we all know so well?

TAD DIBAISE, FMR. PROSECUTOR, SPECIALIZES IN PROSECUTING "NO BODY" HOMICIDE CASES: I mean that`s always a possibility. In any case, it`s always a wise defense to try and attack the police work.

The problem is, in the no-body case, the way you build a no-body case is by piling on evidence upon top of evidence, and in this case, even small, seemingly insignificant pieces of evidence, when you pile them together, between the forensic evidence, how strong or weak it may be, her statement, her actions and the fact that the jury is going to look at her and say you`re the mother of a 2-year-old, now 3-year-old, where is she?

That to me is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence in this no-body case, because often in a no-body case the victim is an adult and has walked away or has left, is what the defense argues.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s told many bizarre stories about what possibly happened, all involving a Zani, short for Zenaida, a person that most people believe does not exist.

Now this is going to be a long trial, because guess what? Just these tapes that we`re analyzing, hours and hours and hours, and we`re cutting this tape and bringing it to you as fast as we can.

Let`s listen to George talking about Casey`s bad-girl photos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I even have some things that I can share with you guys that I shared with law enforcement. But they took me aside before the date of the 9/11 tapes were released and they told me that somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 photos of my daughter, I guess, are out there somewhere that she`s in some -- in -- she`s done some bad things, so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

G. ANTHONY: I`m sure I don`t think shared it with you. When I heard that, I got even sick about that, because I`m like -- I thought I knew my daughter. I don`t know what`s going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The very patient Kathi Belich, who is a reporter for the CNN affiliate WFTV, put this in context for us, because we`re getting inundated with so much information.

How can we sort this out in terms of its importance to this case for the prosecution, and you never know, possibly the defense, as well?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, one of the things that I think we haven`t heard yet is that George Anthony said that he had actually asked Caylee if she had a good day with Zani, because Casey had quite frequently talked about Zani, and he said that she never registered any, even slight bit of recognition to that name.

And that she would use people`s names and talk about people that she knew, that she was familiar with, that she spent time with, and he did think that was odd. But he said that she never seemed to know who Zani was. And, of course, nobody knows who this Zani is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, you know, Mark Williams -- we`re going to go to the phones in a second, but Mark Williams, I want to ask you. These are parents -- obviously, it`s a natural inclination for parents to want to protect their child.

Do you get a sense that they kind of -- especially George, just spilled his guts, said whatever was the truth to the FBI, and then suddenly realized the implications of it. Oh, my gosh, I`m starting to realize what I said, and that accounts for a lot of the backtracking, like the tape we saw of him saying that was not my grandchild in that car.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That happened after a report was released earlier this year, about a decomposing body in the back of Casey`s Pontiac Sunbird.

George is the guy with the deer in the headlines routine. He doesn`t want to believe it, but as an investigator, he does believe it. Cindy Anthony runs that family. There is no doubt about it. You`ve seen her in all the media interviews. She`s the one who said there is a damn dead body in the back of the car when she called 911.

A couple days later, she says, oh, well, that was the smell of a dead -- of a pizza filled with maggots. So, you know, you`re seeing kind of dysfunctionality at its very best.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, and there`s more dysfunctionality to come. Wait until we tell you about the pyramid, the Nigerian pyramid scene that George admits that he was involved in. That`s coming up in a second.

But first, the phone lines. Dawn from Pennsylvania, thanks for your patience, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, thank you. I just wanted to know if she was on any type of illegal drugs like coke or crack or meth or anything like that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Drew Petrimoulx, obviously, that has been explored quite a bit. What do we know?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Talking about Casey here, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

PETRIMOULX: Yes, well, when you talk to her friends, they did say that she did smoke some marijuana and that she was drinking a lot heavily. But you know, everyone says she wasn`t doing any hard-core drugs, where she would be involved in any kind of, you know, serious drug-related crimes or stuff like that. So, you know, it was basically just, you know, marijuana and alcohol.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I want to contrast what these grandparents said to the FBI, and this was months ago, with the way they`re acting now. And essentially, what they`re saying now is, we believe little Caylee is still alive, and they actually take very seriously these alleged sightings that the authorities say, forget about it. They`re not real.

Caylee is dead. And I want to show you -- I have a photograph right here of one of the alleged sightings. Let me try to line it up here. Yes, there you go. This is taken with a cell phone camera at a Florida shopping mall, and I`ve got to say that, Leonard Padilla, the problem with these kinds of sightings is that with a grainy cell phone camera, kids look very similar to each other.

And there`s really no way to distinguish one from another, even though they -- they kind of look alike.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTERSEARCHING FOR CAYLEE: I have -- I have seen little 3-year-olds, and they all, believe it or not, look alike. I`ve gotten pictures, e-mailed to me from New Jersey, about, you know, the neighbor has her

Let me backtrack something on the Zani. Zani is not short for Zenaida. Zani is Xanax.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there`s various interpretations.

PADILLA: Right. But it doesn`t have anything to do with Zenaida, because she never knew Zenaida, never ran into Zenaida prior to the 17th of June when she was at the apartments.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Well, they -- at one point Cindy said that Zani was whoever was taking care of little Caylee. In other words -- and there was also claims that the brother said that Casey was speaking in code. So it`s all cuckoo for cuckoo for coco puffs kind of behavior.

As we go to break, we ask for your thoughts and prayers for defense attorney Sandy Schiff. She is in a fight of a lifetime battling for leukemia. Starting another round of chemo treatment.

Sandy Schiff, we are thinking of you. Our prayers are with you. Please stay strong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You obviously are aware that they have sent -- sent those on to the labs and they`re waiting -- awaiting results as to what that may or may not be, identifiable, within the stain.

G. ANTHONY: I know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t tell you what it may or may not be. But I can tell you what I think it is. I think it`s going to come back with human DNA. Those kinds of stains don`t show up in trunks of cars out of the blue.

G. ANTHONY: That`s something we all understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re talking about the stain in the trunk.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Bombshell developments as missing tot Caylee`s grandparents George and Cindy Anthony talk to the FBI. The videotape just released. We`re cutting it and bringing it to you as fast as we can. It`s kind of like being a fly on the wall of a horrible family tragedy.

We`re going to get to the phone lines in a second, but first, Kathi Belich, tell us about George admitting that he got sucked into a Nigerian pyramid scheme?

BELICH: He said that a couple years ago he had been unemployed for some time with a disability knee injury, and that he got this e-mail saying he had won $2.2 million. He said he was silly enough to give some personal information, and he lost a lot of money for the family. Thousands of dollars.

And he actually told Cindy that he gambled it away. He lied to her about how that happened, but he says that caused a lot of tension between the two of them, and they had serious financial problems.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lillian Glass, psychologist, we all wonder how did Casey become such a liar. Well, here you -- here it is evidenced that dad lied to mom. So when truth is a dead issue in the household, that`s what the kids learn.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Absolutely. The apple doesn`t fall too far from the tree and -- when you talk about lying. And she, obviously, learned this behavior somewhere because they put up with her lying.

She`s been lying for years. They`ve let her get away with it, instead of saying, hey, wait a minute, this girl needs some help.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it`s a cautionary tale. I mean if lying is tolerated in the household and the parents do it, don`t be surprised if your kids turn into pathological liars.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Lisa from Indiana, what`s your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I`m glad to see you`re giving Nancy a break tonight.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she`s got the night off and she`s with her twins, but she`s going to be back here on Monday, and please tune in and see her then.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I sure will. And my question is, I noticed that Casey`s mother and her father also said that there was maggots in the car, in the trunk. Now, could there be, like, maggots eating the flesh of the body, you know, to the bone?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, gee, that -- I don`t even want to visualize that, but Dr. David Posey, medical examiner, take us to that trunk and the whole controversy between the pizza and whether or not that was the smell or whether it was a dead body.

DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: Well, yes. I really think that it`s a dead body in the trunk of the car. Maggots are fly larvae, and in other words, flies that got in. They had contacted the body, they laid their eggs, and so once the body is removed, some of the larvae were still there, maybe hadn`t hatched yet, and that`s what you`re finding the results of.

I doubt seriously if there is any fly larvae planting on the pizza. So I think we`re dealing with a dead body here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I -- think you`re right. Certainly the police believe that.

Let`s go to a heart-breaking comment that George made to the FBI about the last time he saw Caylee alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your gut feeling, if I`m hearing you right, while this is proceeding from June 15th up until this point, is something is not right.

G. ANTHONY: Well, actually, it`s June 16th. That`s the last time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 16th, 16th, that`s what I`m saying.

G. ANTHONY: That`s the last time I saw my daughter and granddaughter together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up until the 24th when you just saw your daughter by herself.

G. ANTHONY: I just saw her by herself. That`s the last time -- that`s I saw my granddaughter on the 16th, because I was watching the Food Channel before going to work, this one guy you always watch. And I know it`s 10 minutes to 1:00, I`m positive there, because I looked and they were coming -- my granddaughter had her backpack on, my daughter had some stuff or backpack and stuff for work.

She was dressed, I believe, in work attire, and she says, dad, you know, I`m on my way to work, Caylee is going to Zani`s house. I`ll be working late, so we`ll be staying over tonight. We`ll see you guys tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That is a heart-breaker, talking about the last time grand dad saw his beloved granddaughter alive.

Vince Velazquez, homicide detective, that was on June 16th. Cindy doesn`t call 911 until she`s had it with her daughter`s cookie explanations. That`s an entire month that is relatively unaccounted for. Vince?

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA, HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: I`m here. She basically was worried about her daughter and at some point when it came to light, she had to make a decision and the decision was to call 911. She knows what happened. I think the family is in denial, unfortunately.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think the family is in denial, and you kind of see that. And your heart goes out for them. I mean, who could -- none of us can judge how we would handle this kind of situation, so I certainly don`t think we should judge the grandparents.

Zoe, in Florida, what is your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wondered where the brother is. He was supposed to be so close to her. Why don`t they question him? And maybe she has told him something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mark Williams, I`m sure they have questioned -- I know they have questioned the brother.

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes. He was -- he was questioned right off the bottom. And the deal is, he was very close to Casey during her first arrest, and of course, when Leonard Padilla and his nephew, Tony, bail her out of jail, they were close. They have questioned him.

He has been nonexistent over the past couple of months. He`s trying to get his life back together. From what we understand, he`s an accountant in downtown Orlando. And the deal is, he has just kept a -- he`s kept a low profile. Nobody has been able really to see him, and he has not surfaced among any of the media outings that have taken place.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s going to be absolutely fascinating to see what happens with this videotape. One thing I can guarantee you, the jurors who hear this case are going to be watching that tape and perhaps over and over again. It`s going to be a key part of this entire case against Casey Anthony.

But first tonight, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

JOHN LEGEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Last year, in October, I visited Mbola, Tanzania. The folks are starting with supreme disadvantage. Most of them are living on less than a dollar a day. It`s difficult for them to even survive. And that`s where I met Mama.

MWADAWA "MAMA" RUZIGA, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My name is Mwadawa Ruziga. I`m the leader of the group that uses local fruits to make jam, wine and juice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through translator): Before I joined the group, my life was at an all-time low. But slowly my life changed for the better.

RUZIGA: We sell our products at different trade shows. Now the members are more educated and the money they make helps them to take care of their basic needs.

LEGEND: I was really inspired by the willingness to not just kind of wait for a handout but really take an active role in helping to uplift their community.

RUZIGA: The group has really lifted my life and give me hope.

LEGEND: Mama Ruziga, she`s a leader. She`s inspirational and she`s one of my heroes.

ANNOUNCER: CNN Heroes. An all-star tribute. Thanksgiving night on CNN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: "CNN HEROES" is sponsored by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragically, we are confident that this child is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In some of their strongest language yet, a spokesman for the lead agency in the search for Caylee Anthony says any hopes of finding her alive are false hope.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An 8-year-old Arizona boy who`s accused of killing his father and another man. He faces two counts of premeditated murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times do you think you fired the gun?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news. Just moments ago an Illinois judge totally dismissing felony gun charges against Drew Peterson.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: News flash. It`s not going to be upheld. The judge, Judge Richard Schoenstedt, had a little hair fit in court today because the prosecution would not do what he told them to. But the prosecutors don`t work for the judge any more than the defense does.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities are being heavily restricted by her daughter Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2-year-old daughter Caylee home alone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: End up going to that no clothes party which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her and that American flag. And then at the end of June she.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S? No clothing party?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Private Branden Haunert, 21, from Cincinnati, Ohio. Killed in Iraq. He left his studies at University of Cincinnati to enlist.

He had a heart of gold and loved playing baseball and spending time with his brothers. He leaves behind parents Bill and Tammy and five brothers.

Branden Haunert, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. And be sure to check out "ISSUES" with me, Jane Velez-Mitchell, every night right here at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

Nancy Grace will be back Monday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then have a terrific and a safe evening.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/21/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

George Anthony Describes Smell of Dead Body in Daughter Casey`s Trunk

Aired November 24, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. Just released, FBI questioning grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, hours and hours, and all caught on videotape. The feds take the Anthonys step-by-step through the day Caylee goes missing, their reaction to the smell of human decomposition in the tot mom`s trunk, all the way to mom Casey stealing from her toddler`s own piggy bank.

In their own words, we hear the Anthonys wrestling with theories about what happened to Caylee, new details about the mysterious nanny the tot mom accuses of kidnapping the 2-year-old, and even more of mom Casey`s web of lies, and tot mom Casey Anthony caught red-handed stealing from everybody - - parents, friends, even stealing from Caylee`s piggy bank and college savings, grandparents, great-grandparents. Finally, the grandparents` response? They insist they were, quote, "ambushed" by the FBI.

The defense goes to court to fight the gag order. And tonight, we finally obtain the defense witness list. This as the search for Caylee goes on. And another bombshell. Has there been another alleged sighting of the little girl. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We walk through a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and -- the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this -- in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I got a sick feeling for a second because the car was all closed up, and if you`re from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor. You don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would agree with you. And you know this because?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Being a deputy sheriff for all the years I was, I have investigated...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition. I started to turn it, and I`m, like, No, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong. I looked in the back seat a little bit more. I didn`t see anything. I looked around as quick as I could. I scanned. I mean, I`m looking for everything.

And I told the guy, I said, Can you walk around with me to the rear of the car? He says, Why? And I said, Man, there is a smell in this car, and I`ve just got to know where it`s coming from. And as I walked around the back of that car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, Please don`t let it be either one of them.

I went around the driver`s side, the guy was almost as close to you and I, walking right behind me. And as I opened up the door, that smell took my breath away. I mean, it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and went like this, and had to open the passenger door because I had to let this thing vent for a little because, I mean, it was just that overpowering.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hours and hours of FBI interrogation of grandparents Cindy and George Anthony. Today they say that they were ambushed.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. And I know she has been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping a buck, 5 bucks, quarters. You know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy. And it`s a good-size piggy bank. And you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.

She`s taken money from my wife`s purse...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You started to...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Twenty dollars, forty dollars, maybe more than that at a time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You started to use the word there that you hesitated in -- you started to say -- you stopped.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Steal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that how you feel about it or is that how your wife feels about it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any doubt in your mind that`s what she was doing?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No because we have all the information that she`s done it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Three deposit slips that she had -- she had forged a deposit slip for $4,400.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your mother`s name -- with her mother`s name on it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, with our account.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever hear Caylee talk about Zanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No. No. Because, as a matter of fact, we didn`t even bring up Zanny`s name. Our granddaughter is a pretty bright little girl. No, she never...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said Zanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never talked about her nanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, never said anything in those regards whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think is the more likely scenario? Do you think it`s more likely that -- as she says, Zanny knocked her to the ground and took Caylee? Or do you think it`s more likely that the -- and I understand completely. I`m asking for a gut reaction. I`m not asking because you know anything, but...

GEORGE ANTHONY: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard for us, considering the circumstances surrounding what`s going on...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to go with a theory where she`s telling us who these people are and none of them are identifiable. None of her family has ever met her nanny.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None of her friends outside of the new friends -- actually, none of the new friends know who Zanny is.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hours and hours of videotaped questioning by the FBI of George and Cindy Anthony just released. Their response? They say they were ambushed by the feds. We are taking your calls live.

Out to Mark Williams WNDB Newstalk. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: ... FBI videos that have been released by the FBI, the interviews of George and Cindy Anthony, George admits on those videos that when he got to the tow yard, he could smell that smell of death, the odor coming from the car. He says it`s the worst odor you could ever expect in your lifetime, and he says you can`t forget that odor. Secondly, the video...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Let`s take a listen to what Mark Williams just described. Everybody, we`re taking your calls live, and we are talking about in the last hours, the FBI releases hours of interrogation tapes of George and Cindy Anthony. The two of them tell very, very different stories. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I open up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter or my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. Also inside that container was an Arm `n Hammer liquid laundry detergent bottle stuck inside of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I did not touch it. The guy reached inside and he says, Oh, this is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped it, dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away from where we were at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In describing where the pizza bag -- the trash bag with the pizza was, where was it, left or right? Inside...

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK, this is the trunk of the car. Over where the left rear taillight`s at. The bag was closer to that taillight area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left rear taillight?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. That`s where I found that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And the stain was -- if this is the left rear taillight down here...

GEORGE ANTHONY: The stain was almost directly right in the center because that`s where the spare tire cover and stuff is. That`s where the spare tire`s at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the best of your knowledge, did you ask the tow truck driver or anybody that was on the lot that day had they been in the car or done anything to the car? You didn`t ask that?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I didn`t even ask. And as a matter of fact -- I`m crazy. I wish in some ways I just would have left it the way it was. But I couldn`t stand the smell. I mean, even the pizza had a particular odor to it that was just -- whew. It would take you back. But this specific odor...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Distinct smell outside...

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was a totally different smell. It`s -- garbage and this other decomposition smell are totally different. That`s very distinguishable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girl that you described to me earlier on the general assessment is a very well-rounded, well-adjusted, intelligent young lady.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I`m not -- I`m not...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what she`s asking to you believe at this point -- and I`m just trying -- I`m throwing it out there objectively. What she`s asking to you believe at this point is that she`s acted so far out of character that she now believes that somebody has her child and is going to do harm not only to the child or her but now to the family, but she doesn`t want to tell anybody, but she wants to give us clues to go find them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, on the story from the get-go. Natisha, what has been the Anthonys` response to the release of these FBI questioning tapes?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, according to reports, Nancy, they have said that they feel like they were ambushed, they were not aware that they were being videotaped give whatsoever, and they said that this speaks volumes to that the sheriff`s office is no longer looking for Caylee. But they said that`s OK because they`re still looking for Caylee. But they think the sheriff`s office is more interested in building a case against Casey.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. With us, family law attorney Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, veteran defense attorney, and Kirby Clements, former prosecutor turned defense attorney joining us out of Atlanta. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She stole money from Caylee`s piggy bank? What was she, buying chloroform with nickels? This is outrageous. They say that she was -- this family has been ambushed. Well, they`ve been ambushed with the truth, and the truth is, is that we should be looking for a body and we should be preparing for this trial.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez, the grandparents say they were ambushed. Are the feds under any duty to tell potential witnesses they are being videotaped?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they may not be under any duty, but I can see why the Anthonys feel that they were ambushed. Why is this tape being released? If the prosecution is so concerned that the general public is going to be polluted by improper information, how come they didn`t go to court and try to prevent this information from coming out?

GRACE: You know, Alex, I really appreciate that. But to you, Kirby Clements -- Kirby Clements, off what Sanchez just said, what tainted information? It`s their statements. And why are they -- I understand they didn`t realize the tapes were going to be made public. But it seems to me that they would be more worried about the smell of death in the car, more than the tapes being made public.

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true. But at the same time, you have to factor in that they`re also claiming that they believe this little girl is alive. And they feel as though that the police are not doing their job in looking for this girl and trying to follow up on these leads of this child has been spotted elsewhere. So releasing this information now and -- just serves to create more confusion and it makes them think they`re not...

GRACE: Confusion? Who? What confused? I`m not confused. Are you confused, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: Well, at this point, they haven`t found a body. At this point...

GRACE: So what are you confused about, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: I`m confused, like the police are confused. They haven`t come forward with a body, with definitive evidence to show us exactly what took place, how this child died...

GRACE: Oh, really? Because they found evidence of human decomposition in the back of that trunk, and Caylee`s gone. I believe you can still add two plus two and get four, Kirby.

CLEMENTS: Well, that doesn`t mean that the mother killed her, and that`s the point. She`s on trial for killing the child.

GRACE: Well put. Well put.

Everyone, quickly, program note. This Thursday night, a special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, in-depth look at the critical first 24 hours after Caylee reported missing. Then Friday, the critical first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Because I asked her, I said, Who are you protecting? Are you protecting Caylee? Yes. Are you protecting me? Yes. Are you protecting your dad? Yes. Are you protecting your brother? Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Protecting from what?

CINDY ANTHONY: And that`s what I specifically asked her. I asked her, Are you protecting from our feelings being hurt, from something bad happening, you know, that you don`t think we can handle it? And she says, No, it`s not emotional. She says, It`s physical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say she says you`re too upset, what were you upset about that she noticed?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, number one is where we believed our daughter was at, our granddaughter, she`s not there. She can`t be in Jacksonville if her car`s here in Orlando. That`s impossible. Why did it take us so long to find all this information out? I mean, that`s 15 days, you know? If we could have got a call from these guys on the 30th, on July 1, we could have been further into all this kind of stuff than we`re at right now. That was very upsetting to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the smell upset you, as well?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Bombshell tonight. Hours and hours of FBI interrogation of George and Cindy Anthony have just been released. The Anthonys say they were ambushed by the FBI. We are taking your calls live. Also tonight, we get, finally, the defense witness list. To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Who`s on the list?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Three people. One of them you`ll know from your show, Dr. Koby (ph). Another one is Dr. Henry Lee, a very famous guy from the O.J. Simpson trial. And then there`s another man named Larry Daniel. He`s a computer forensics specialist and he`s going to be there, analyzing the computer forensics on the stuff that was found on the computer and also cell phone records.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Drew, Drew Petrimoulx, where are all the people that tot mom Casey Anthony says she told Caylee was missing?

PETRIMOULX: Right. Well, I mean, you know that you can add to these lists, you know...

GRACE: Yes.

PETRIMOULX: ... before the trial starts. And this is weird because there`s only three people on her list. But if you look over at the state attorney`s list, there`s over 83 witnesses that will be coming, including 34 from the sheriff`s office. So the size of the lists of both these teams is, you know, hugely different.

GRACE: Well, let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements. Alex Sanchez, where are all the witnesses?

SANCHEZ: Well, look, the defense has made a decision that the only legitimate defense to take in this case is a forensic defense. What are they going to call, character witnesses on behalf of Caylee -- Casey? That`s highly unlikely.

GRACE: No. What about all the witnesses they claimed they had that she made outcry to?

SANCHEZ: Right. But once...

GRACE: Outcry is, everyone, a term of art that refers to a witness to whom a victim first tells their story or a witness first tells their story. Where are they?

SANCHEZ: Yes. An outcry witness usually doesn`t apply in a case like this. It may apply in, let`s say, a rape case, but not in a case like this.

GRACE: No, Alex. Actually, outcry witness is now expanded to all types of cases, when you first tell someone what happened. For instance, all the people she said she told, My daughter is missing. Where are they?

SANCHEZ: Well, they`ve determined that they`re not going to take that route. It`s a forensic defense, attack all the forensic evidence in the case...

GRACE: You know what, Alex?

SANCHEZ: ... call in the great evidence -- the great experts and try to destroy the prosecution`s case.

GRACE: You know what, Alex? Contrary to what many people may believe after hearing what you just said, I respect you because you said that with such a straight face. You could actually argue that to a jury.

To you, Kirby Clements. The kicker is the state, the prosecutor, cannot comment in front of the jury about the defense`s failure to call these witnesses. Why? It is tantamount to commenting on the right to remain silent. What about that?

CLEMENTS: I think it`s a great rule. That`s what the Constitution is there for. In this case, the prosecution doesn`t have a body. Why should the defense concede murder, concede death, and then try to argue, Well, let me tell you the reasons why this happened? No. They have to fight this case all the way through, and the prosecution should not be allowed to comment on the defendant`s right to remain silent.

GRACE: But Susan Moss, there is a around it. When the defense doesn`t bring all the witnesses they say they`ve got, the state cannot comment on that at trial in front of the jury unless -- until and unless the defense brings them up first. So if the defense attorney, Jose Baez, in this case mentions all these people -- Tot mom Casey Anthony said my daughter`s missing, my daughter`s missing -- then the state can say, Hey, jury, where are they?

MOSS: That`s right. It`s akin to opening up the door and allowing the prosecution in. But the truth is, it`s indisputable that the funk from the trunk smells worse than a dead skunk. There`s enough evidence here to show, through the "body farm" and the other experts, that there was a dead body decomposing in that car and that`s going to make the difference.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Erica in South Carolina. Hi, Erica.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just have to say my mother and I both watch you and we`ve loved you for years.

GRACE: Thank you, Erica in South Carolina. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- well, on Friday, you guys mentioned -- and I think it was a good point -- that the mother and the father -- or especially the mother, Cindy -- seem to be enabling and co- dependent. But in watching the tapes, the initial tapes, they seemed more forthcoming and more truthful in the early days.

And I`m wondering if they feel guilty and are kind of overcompensating now and are in denial because of the fact of the type of careers they had? They were absentee parents a lot because nurses work 12-hour shifts, and then police officers are having long shifts. And so I`m thinking that the tot mom, Casey, she learned how to -- lying for attention-seeking at an early age. And it`s something that (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Well, you know, Erica, I think you`ve got a good point, but I don`t want to shift too much blame onto the parents because if you call them absentee parents, basically, every working parent in this country is an absentee parent. What about it, Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist out of LA?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: First of all, these parents are victims. And if we say that about them, it`s just what you said, Nancy. There are lots of families with two working parents, and their kids are not being accused of murder.

GRACE: You know what? You`re right. And Stacy, both of my parents worked really long hours, but I never considered them to be absentee parents. Stacy?

KAISER: Yes. Yes. No. I mean, they`re not absentee parents. And even if they were, that doesn`t make for children who steal and lie to police officers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I open up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter or my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. Also inside that container was an Arm `n Hammer liquid laundry detergent bottle stuck inside of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I did not touch it. The guy reached inside and he says, Oh, this is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped it, dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away from where we were at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In addition to hours of FBI interrogation tapes being released on George and Cindy Anthony, we also learned the defense witness list has been released. To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies." John Lucich, one of them is a computer forensics expert. What will they do with that, the defense?

JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATOR: Well, there`s no doubt about it. His whole job is going to be refuting the evidence that they found. He`s going to attempt to show that those searches could have been done by anybody. These investigators, I`m sure, know the computer forensics process inside and out. They`re going to take a look at e-mail that could only have been sent by Casey Anthony, send and receive, match those dates and times to the computer searches and you`re going to be able to show that Casey Anthony was on the computer at that time when those searches were being done.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am just throwing it out there because.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: How.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . that`s what she`s asking us to believe.

C. ANTHONY: I`m normally a very rational, you know, person that would think things through before I would speak.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

C. ANTHONY: OK? Now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s very evident.

C. ANTHONY: . it`s very obvious that on those 911 calls, I was scared to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because I didn`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

C. ANTHONY: . what was going on and I did and said whatever I needed to do to get help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what you did.

C. ANTHONY: So you see things, anything that she`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what you did made sense.

C. ANTHONY: But we don`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What she is doing doesn`t make sense.

C. ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense but it would if we find Caylee. If we find Caylee and if she`s with this person, then isn`t it going to make sense that she was trying to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was giving us clues that would actually lead us to this person but all the clues that she`s given have led us away from the situation.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I had a savings account for my daughter -- for granddaughter at Wachovia Bank. I was the executor on it and my daughter was the assistant or she was like the second executor on it.

I gave her the permission -- bank to sign everything that she could go and deposit and/or take funds out if needed in an emergency, not just to take it out any time. That account was up $3, $400 and there`s maybe $5 in it right now.

I mean I had director deposit. I don`t even have that anymore because every time that I went to check on my daughter`s -- my granddaughter`s account, guess what? The money is gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Hours and hours of interrogation by the FBI. These tapes released of George and Cindy Anthony, caught on tape, two very, very different stories about their daughter, tot mom Casey Anthony.

Out to the lines, Deanna in Michigan. Hi, Deanna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, I love your show. You -- I love your twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have twins myself. The older they get, the easier they are and the more fun they are.

GRACE: Good to know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. My question is we have pretty much proven proof that Casey was seen leaving the woods with a shovel and she borrowed a shovel but it seems to be that they`re concentrating on the swamps and the rivers.

And I`m just wondering why they`re spending so much time in the rivers when, you know, she obviously had a shovel?

GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question, Deanna in Michigan.

Let`s go out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, Sacramento, California, who is resuming the search for little Caylee.

Leonard, there were several sightings of a woman who fits Casey Anthony`s description with a shovel. We know the neighbors place her taking a shovel from them. Why are you looking in a river?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The shovel she borrowed from the neighbor she returned to the neighbor and the detectives from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office were seen carrying it in a bag, and it`s probably still sitting in the Orange County Sheriff`s Office evidence locker.

There was no sighting of her that`s valid as far as going or coming out of a forest. Casey would never step five foot into the brush. She just not geared that way. The shovel was used in the backyard that day to fish her child out of the pool after she tried to fake a drowning.

GRACE: OK. To Mark Williams of WNDB, am I to understand correctly from Padilla that the multiple sightings of a woman who fits tot mom`s description coming out of a wooded area near the Orlando International Airport, all of those have been discredited?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: From what we understand, Nancy, that is the case. I mean, you know, there`s -- this person that said that he saw a woman come out of a wooded area with a floppy hat and some sunglasses and a shovel. And that`s been about it. The reason that they`re searching.

GRACE: Well, no, hold on, because another person was in the car with him and they both saw the same thing and in addition to that, a female driver thought she saw a friend`s car and then realized that the bumper stickers didn`t match and saw a woman in that same area coming out that matched Casey Anthony`s description.

So all three of them are wrong?

WILLIAMS: I`m not saying that, but they have, obviously, discounted that for some reasoning that they have not told us about. They`re concentrating, of course, Nancy, and we`ve had this on the show before, about where those pings from the cell phone were and they`ve been, you know, close to her house, near Blanchard Park, places like that near the Orlando Airport.

GRACE: And at Orlando International Airport where, apparently, I believe you`re the one that told me that some of those sightings were near the airport.

WILLIAMS: They were near the airport. They were near some railroad tracks, from what we can gather because.

GRACE: Well, then why are they discredited?

WILLIAMS: I -- Nancy, I wish I could tell you. But obviously.

GRACE: But you agree they have been discredited.

WILLIAMS: I would say right now they have been discredited because.

GRACE: You assume they`ve been discredited.

WILLIAMS: Well, Nancy, they.

GRACE: But you don`t know they`ve been discredited?

WILLIAMS: Nancy, they have checked through 5,000 tips and leads and after that there has been really nothing coming out of that wooded area. Again, they`re searching in other areas where they had the cell phone pings.

GRACE: OK. Everybody, take a listen to what is caught on tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. I know she`s been taking from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping five bucks, quarters, you know, one day you go in there in that bank is heavy. I mean it`s a good sized piggybank and you know you put money in there, you know it.

There`s nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you saw a stain in the trunk?

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Probably about the size of a basketball maybe just a little bit -- not completely circular. It had some.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was -- not as certain.

G. ANTHONY: Yes -- right. To draw a particular design on it, that I couldn`t do, but I can -- I can tell you, I did stick my nose as close as I could get to it, and man, it`s a very strong odor. It`s right where the spare tire`s at -- spare time cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it where the pizza was sitting? It was not where the pizza was?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, it was more in the center of the trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now is an exclusive guest tonight, Richard Grund, this is Jesse Grund`s father out of Orlando. Before we go to him, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: Richard Grund, G-R-U-N-D. He and my wife spoke probably about 10-15 minutes last night because I was doing other things. I didn`t get a chance to call him back.

And there was a little heated discussion from Richard with my wife. My wife, I believe, handled very, very diplomatically. And he said he`s going to bring up all this stuff about our daughter being a liar and all this stuff. So I don`t know where this is all going at the moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Richard Grund, Jesse Grund`s father, what do you make of that?

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I have to tell you I was pretty shocked to be listening to this testimony and about four minutes in to hear my name mentioned and to hear -- for no reason, the FBI didn`t ask him anything, George just felt compelled to tell him about my conversation with Cindy. So I`m shocked and really disappointed in George.

GRACE: Well, under the circumstances, though, Richard, they -- can`t find their granddaughter. They think maybe their daughter`s implicated, I have to cut them some slack but what things did Casey Anthony tell you?

GRUND: Well, you know, Nancy, you may want to cut him some slack but when you have been in their living room three nights before hugging their neck telling them, look, we love you and we`ll do anything for you.

GRACE: True.

GRUND: And then you find out they`re trying to implicate your son for the sake of their daughter, I have a little hard time with that.

GRACE: Agree. Agree. What did Casey Anthony tell you?

GRUND: Casey would sit at our dinner table while she waited for Jesse to get home from work and she would just vent. She would just tell me everything what was going on in her family`s life, how much she hated her father for the gambling debts and losing $30,000 of the family`s money, not $10,000.

The fact that she thought her father was cheating on her mother. She didn`t want him to come home. She told me about, you know, a lot of the inner workings. And I`m not sure what it was that got them startled enough that they wanted to do a proactive thing and tell the FBI, but I just basically told Cindy Anthony after hearing one of their lawyers slander my son, I said that`s it. I`m just going to answer any question anybody has about you and your family.

GRACE: And tell me something, did you and George Anthony have a conversation at a prayer vigil?

GRUND: Yes.

GRACE: What happened?

GRUND: The second week of the prayer vigil was Sunday the 27th, I think. I had actually contacted George that morning. I was going to start calling in favors from my friends in law enforcement and military intelligence and see what I could find out, but I gave him the message and said, George, if I`m going to harm Caylee by shaking the trees, let me know.

He immediately called me up and said, look, I want to talk to you. I`ve been wanting to talk to you. We tried to meet that afternoon. Then he said why don`t you come by the prayer vigil. Well, my wife and I went to the prayer vigil and stood there for three hours while George disappeared.

Finally Lee said, look, come inside and sit down with us. George finally came out about 11:00 and walked us out to the car. I hit him with a couple of things. I said, George, what about the smell in the car? I said you know what that smell is. And he said, well, yes, it could be this. It could be that.

And I said, no, you know what that smell is. If it`s not Caylee, who is it? He goes, I don`t know. And then I asked , you know, him about Casey. And he`s finally said, look, I believe my daughter finally ripped off the wrong person. And as I was leaving I looked at him and I said, George, what has your daughter gotten herself into?

And this is after him telling me I know my daughter hasn`t had a job in two years. I know that. And he said, I don`t know what she`s got herself into.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. And as we go to break tonight on a happy note a very special happy anniversary to Georgia friends of the show, Arthur and Ewell Johns.

They blow away all the statistics from divorce celebrating 60 years together and still going strong.

Happy anniversary, Mr. And Mrs. Johns. You give all of us hope.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She talked about Mallory?

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Because whenever we mentioned Uncle Lee`s name -- oh we`re going to see Uncle Lee today, she said Mallory? Mallory? That was something that she.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would associate people with.

G. ANTHONY: Right. Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . other people or things like that but you never heard her talk about Zani or Jeff or Zachary?

G. ANTHONY: Annie or any of these other friends of hers. No. I never heard my granddaughter say anything like that. Even if you ask her, did you have a good time with Zani today? There was never any brightness or anything like that come through her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

G. ANTHONY: And it`s like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no recognition on her part as far as you could tell?

G. ANTHONY: None, whatsoever.

And then you get these e-mails (INAUDIBLE) that some says there`s a $2.2 million in bank in the U.K. so I got involved in .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

G. ANTHONY: I`ve fallen to that completely. I should have known better. That was stupid. Every phone number that were given to me, every address, I always followed it up with it and everything sounded legitimate and (INAUDIBLE) I got scammed.

And I have been unemployed for almost two careers because of a knee injury. I couldn`t just go back to work, I mean, I had a complete knee that was replaced.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

G. ANTHONY: And it took me -- usually it takes you about a good year to get through all of that and it just -- I took the time. And we try so - - yes, we were financially pretty tight and I just -- when this came up, I tried it. This is a quick fix for us to get back on our feet, you know, to keep our house because my wife...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just the right time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hours of FBI interrogation of the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, just released. They claim they were ambushed by the feds. The defense finally releases its witness list, three witnesses on that list.

We have one of those witnesses with us tonight, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Kobi, as we call him, forensic scientist of great fame actually, out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is the paid consultant to the Anthony defense team.

Dr. Kobilinsky, you are one of three. What do you plan to talk about at trial?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Yes, that`s right.

GRACE: What do you plan to talk about at trial?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I believe I`m going to be called to discuss the DNA results. That is my area of specialization, although I have a lot of knowledge about forensic science in general. My area is really DNA.

GRACE: Among the many, many motions filed by Baez, he is also asking for additional testing on the forensic evidence. Why?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think the defense is reserving the right to retest the air samples. I think there are a lot of issues about admissibility and reliability and validation studies and so the defense reserves the right to test that -- those samples but they may not.

GRACE: If you tested them, where would you test them?

KOBILINSKY: That`s a very good question. There is absolutely no crime lab in the United States that does the kind of testing that was done in Oak Ridge and so we have another issue about the validation and reliability of these procedures.

GRACE: But yet, Dr. Kobilinsky, when you want to use Oak Ridge Laboratories testing methods and their results to your favor, you don`t have a problem with it. But now that you are going to disagree with it, you say their testing is unreliable.

You don`t see a problem with that?

KOBILINSKY: I`m not saying it`s unreliable. What I.

GRACE: You are.

KOBILINSKY: What I`m saying is there may be an issue of admissibility in a court of law with the rules of evidence.

GRACE: Admissibility because of what? Admissibility because of what?

KOBILINSKY: Admissibility because of lack of validation studies that this procedure is not done by any other crime lab, that we don`t have error rates. There are a lot of issues.

GRACE: Kobi, Kobi, when you say lack of validation what you mean is reliability.

KOBILINSKY: Absolutely, it refers to reliability.

GRACE: You just said you`re not saying they`re not reliable but that is what you`re saying.

KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. I am not saying it`s not reliable. I`m saying that we have to determine if these procedures.

GRACE: If it`s reliable.

KOBILINSKY: . have withstood the standards set by the state for admissibility.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls, but before we go back to calls I want to tell you about another alleged sighting of little Caylee. Let`s go back to Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark, what can you tell me?

WILLIAMS: Well, there is a picture being circulated by the Kid Finders Network of a cell phone picture taken by.

GRACE: We`re showing it right now.

WILLIAMS: OK, of a 3-year-old -- what looks like a 3-year-old girl. She is white, she has brown hair and she`s having a great time. They say that that is a Caylee sighting. Right now the police departments are kind of not discounting it but they`re taking a look at the picture.

The person who snapped this picture tried to call a couple of agencies, waited for a couple of hours, didn`t get any response. Finally went over to the Web site known as Helpfindcaylee and that`s where they uploaded the pictures.

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of the mall at which this photo was taken. Let`s see the shot again, Elizabeth. Another alleged sighting of little Caylee.

Do we know, Natisha Lance, whether cops have followed up on this?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Actually, Nancy, police are saying they are not looking into this tip whatsoever. All the evidence they have says that Caylee Anthony is dead and they are going along with that evidence and they feel as if it is ridiculous for the family to be putting other families through this trouble of trying to prove that their child is their child.

GRACE: What about it, Drew Petrimoulx? Is that true? Are police not following up on the tip?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. They said they`re done with these wild goose chases across the country. There have been alleged sightings, you know, in Coral Springs, down in South Florida, Gainesville, all the way up to North Carolina.

So they basically said they`re done spending their resources. You know there`s 34 cops that are going to be called in to trial. So that just goes to show you how much resources the Orange County Sheriff`s Department has spent on this case.

So you know, basically, they have other things to do. They can`t follow all these leads around. They believe that Caylee is dead.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements.

Kirby, I know that all three of you have tried a lot of cases. Kirby, in this instance, the cops are damned if they do, damned if they don`t. If they follow up on the tip at trial the defense is going to say you weren`t convinced she was dead as recently as Thanksgiving 2008.

You were trying to find her alive. Weren`t you, officer? That`s what they`re going to say. If they don`t follow up on the tip, Kirby, at the -- at trial the defense is going to say but we gave you tips she was alive and you refused to follow up. Isn`t that true, officer?

Am I right, Kirby?

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely correct and quite honestly, that`s the way it ought be. I mean if you`re going to try a murder case without a body, then the defense is entitled to show, hey, maybe the child is still alive or you haven`t done enough. And it`s unfortunate for the police but that`s how it`s going to be.

GRACE: Alex?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s disgraceful that the police are not looking into some legitimate tips. That`s photograph. I mean I don`t know if it`s legitimate or not. But what is wrong with sending the police down to the local area where that photograph was taken and try to determine the identity of that child. Would that be such an imposition on the police department?

GRACE: You know what, Susan Moss, I have to agree with Sanchez on this one. Do I think it`s Caylee? No. Do I think that Caylee`s most likely dead? Yes, but I`d rather them follow through and at trial say, we did it to put the parents` minds at ease.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I`m just afraid that one juror may be hoodwinked in thinking that this little girl is still alive and vote not guilty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: She`s dropping us little hints every once and a wile. And it`s hard to put this all together. My son`s been working on it and friends and everything you guys talked to her about what I`ve said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I went around the driver`s side the guy was almost as close to you and I walking right behind me and as I opened up the door that smell took my breath away. I mean it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and went like this, and had to open the passenger door because I had to let this thing vent for a little because, I mean, it was just that overpowering.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The trail date is now set for January, but it looks like the defense is backing off. We don`t know what their reason for delay is.

Out to the lines, to Mary in Florida. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am. What`s your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I would like to know if Casey had a transponder in her car to pay for tolls around Orlando, probably she has.

GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: We don`t believe that Casey has one in the car in the Pontiac. But there was one in Cindy Anthony`s car as well as George Anthony`s car. At one point, Casey did take Cindy Anthony`s car and that is when George Anthony had followed her and there are.

GRACE: Got it. I get where Mary is headed. She wants to find out if she can be traced to the transponder.

To B.J. in Florida, hi, B.J.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am wondering for this average American family, who is paying for these high priced defense people?

GRACE: Tell it. Tell is because Kobi ain`t cheap. What about it, Mark Williams? Who`s paying the bill?

WILLIAMS: Keeping their mouths shut on this one, Nancy. Nobody is saying anything about where the money is coming from or anything else. Now, remember, they had a licensing deal, allegedly, with NBC TV for pictures but, you know.

GRACE: Got it.

WILLIAMS: . Larry Garrison(ph), I guess, has that.

GRACE: Right.

Everybody, let`s stop our discussion and remember Army Specialist Kyle Norris, 22, Zanesville, Ohio, killed Iraq. Proud to serve his country. Loved handing out candy to Iraqi kids. Time with friends, paintball, video games.

Dreamed of proposing to his girlfriend Courtney and joining Ohio State Highway Patrol. Leaves behind parents, Neva and Wayne, brothers Michael and Sean, sister Tempest.

Kyle Norris, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from New York, friends of the show, daughter of defense attorney, Alex Sanchez, Nadia.

Isn`t she a beauty? And her friends Matt. Welcome to both of you.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friends.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/24/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Did Missing Tot`s Grandmother Withhold Evidence?

Aired November 25, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight, stunning and disturbing developments. In the last hours, allegations surface that grandmother Cindy intentionally tries to trick the FBI to save daughter Casey Anthony. How? By allegedly handing over the tot mom`s hairbrush for DNA instead of little Caylee`s the FBI asked for. This after hair in tot mom`s trunk allegedly proves a death did occur. But so far, that hair is not linked only to Caylee. Will grandmother Cindy be prosecuted for obstruction?

And just hours ago, the Anthonys hold a press conference, blasting police for stopping the search for a live Caylee, including a Caylee look- alike spotted at a shopping mall, Orlando. And today, both sides in court over a string of motions connected to the upcoming murder trial, the defense fighting tooth and nail to stop a gag order, but not a word from the defense on a motion for a speedy trial or to change the venue. Does the defense want to delay the trial? Why?

And tonight, more of the stunning FBI questioning of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony all caught on videotape. We have the video. And the search set for 2-year-old Caylee to resume. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Science is just science, OK? There`s nothing 100 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orlando station WFTV is reporting that the FBI is investigating an e-mail allegedly from Cindy Anthony that reveals she may have given investigators a hairbrush for DNA comparison that was not Caylee`s.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to fight with them. I want them -- just like Padilla (ph), I don`t want to fight with them. Be responsible for what you`re doing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, arguments were heard today in an Orlando courtroom, where a judge is deciding whether to issue a gag order in this case.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Every single thing that has been released and leaked out into the media, Judge, has been leaked by the state attorney`s office or law enforcement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution and the defense, the sheriff`s office, all of the attorneys and the defendant`s family can essentially say nothing about this case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to shut us up because they have zero by way of any witnesses that happened to Caylee Marie, zero by way of any type of confession, zero by way of how this child may or may not have died.

CINDY ANTHONY: No matter what happens to us, it`s about Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mom vanishing into thin air, Birmingham, her 1-year-old baby boy left behind at day care. Mommy never comes to pick him up. What happened to 23-year-old Nadia Kersh?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ellen Wilson (ph) is the director of ABC Day Care, where 23-year-old Nadia Kersh took her 1-year-old son Christopher every day. That`s why Wilson had to call police when Nadia didn`t pick him up. According to Nadia`s boss at Homewood`s Tria Market, Nadia left work Monday for lunch at 1:00 o`clock and didn`t come back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t miss work, so we knew something was up then. And then -- but when she found out that she didn`t go to get her son, then we knew something was terribly wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homewood police were back at Nadia`s Homewood apartment, searching for clues to her disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Securing this as a crime scene, and we`re processing and gathering things to try to find, you know, financial records, medical records, things like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very sad. I`m glad to know that her son`s OK. That`s what really concerned me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Nadia`s day care is concerned, as well, for her wellbeing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I have read all the reports. There is nothing there. There`s nothing concrete.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to Orlando station WFTV, the FBI is investigating whether Cindy Anthony tried to sabotage the Caylee case by allegedly giving authorities the wrong hairbrush which to compare Caylee`s DNA to. A former Anthony family spokesperson sent an e-mail to the Orlando station that was allegedly from Cindy Anthony saying that although she never lied, she also never went to the bathroom and retrieved the hairbrush only used for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: Hair samples don`t mean anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This as a showdown occurred in an Orange County court today, where arguments were heard on a wide-ranging gag order in this case.

BAEZ: I didn`t tell the public that there was alleged chloroform in the trunk of that car. I didn`t tell the public that there are allegedly chloroform searches on the Anthonys` computer. I didn`t tell the public that there was hair found in the trunk of the car that could be Caylee`s. I didn`t tell the public that that hair has post-mortem banding on it. That all came from this side of the room.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car. The worst odor that you could smell in this world.

CINDY ANTHONY: It shouldn`t be about a prosecution`s case. Caylee Marie has rights. She should have the right for everybody to look for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, we learn allegations have surfaced that mom -- grandmother Cindy Anthony, actually tried to trick the FBI. They needed a DNA match to little Caylee`s hair sample. Remember that hair found in the trunk of mom Casey`s car? Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony tries to give the appearance she`s cooperating with investigators, but Channel 9 has learned she and her husband, George, have been stalling for weeks in answering detectives` follow-up questions. Today, this e-mail surfaced. It appears that the Anthonys` former spokesman, Larry Garrison, says he confronted Cindy by e- mail about why she gave Casey`s hairbrush instead of Caylee`s hairbrush to investigators who wanted a DNA sample. He says Cindy`s e-mail response was this, quote, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Will this be tantamount to obstruction of justice? Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, what happened?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we understand is that this e-mail came to light -- the family`s former spokesperson, Larry Garrison, said that he confronted her about giving the wrong hairbrush to investigators on July 21, which would have been about a week after we all found out that Caylee was missing, and that that was her answer, that she never lied, she just simply gave a different brush that was used, apparently, not only by Caylee, as they had asked. What we have been told is that if you withhold evidence that an officer is asking for in an official capacity, it could be obstruction of justice. But of course, authorities have discretion in these case.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, explain why it is so crucial, was so crucial, that the FBI have a known sample -- a known sample -- of little Caylee`s hair.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, when you`re comparing DNA, mitochondrial DNA, Nancy, it`s very important you have this. And not only obstruction of justice, if, in fact, an FBI officer, an FBI agent asked her for that and she gave it to him or her and said, Yes, this is the brush of my granddaughter, and it wasn`t, then also, she could be charged with lying to a federal officer.

GRACE: And unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Greg McKeithen. Susan Moss, it doesn`t have to be verbal. It doesn`t have to be expressly stated, This is little Caylee`s hairbrush. If they say, Can you give me Caylee`s hairbrush, and you come out and hand them a hairbrush, what does that say?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. It`s called a verbal act. And by giving a hairbrush you know is somebody else`s hairbrush, she`s committed. Her credibility is gone.

GRACE: What about it, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sue and Mike are right. I mean, you don`t have to actually lie, but if you just fail to do what`s asked of you on a federal investigation, especially, that can be obstruction. I will say, they still have to show intent.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Let me the get this straight, Ray. Let me the get this straight, Ray.

GIUDICE: Yes.

GRACE: So the feds say, Give me the hairbrush. If they don`t have a subpoena, do you have to give them the hairbrush?

GIUDICE: Yes, well, the question is -- has to be specific. Give us Caylee`s hairbrush, the one that she uses. If the question is...

GRACE: If they don`t have a warrant for that...

GIUDICE: No. You cannot -- yes. The answer is yes. They don`t need a warrant. It`s a federal investigation through a state investigation, and she has to be honest with them.

GRACE: What about it, Greg McKeithen?

GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree she has to be honest, but remember, we must examine the totality of the circumstances here and find out whether there was any criminal intent here. Perhaps this was just an honest mistake, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, let`s go back over the e-mail. I`ve got the e-mail right here. Kathi Belich, we`ll figure out where this e-mail came from. And did the former spokesperson really send it? I don`t know. She says, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."

All right. To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. What do you think?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, there`s consciousness of guilt. She said, "I never lied." And she said...

GRACE: But...

SAUNDERS: ... but I never went where they asked me to go and do. So she heard what they asked her to do, and her behavior was contrary to it.

GRACE: Back to Mark Williams. Everybody, you know Mark from WNDB. What I want to reiterate is the significance of little Caylee`s hair. Hair was found where, Mark Williams?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Hair was found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s Pontiac Sunbird by investigators, and they sent that off to the FBI lab. And it came back with -- they said, yes, this came from human, from a human, and it had that so-called death band on the bottom of it, the discoloration of the bottom of the roots.

GRACE: In fact -- to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, on the Anthony defense team -- hair that is from a deceased person has what we have called a death ring, a death band. Explain.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, it`s actually, Nancy, an accumulation of air pockets, microscopic air pockets, very close to the root end of the hair. Under the microscope, it looks like a dark band. Sometimes it looks brownish, sometimes blackish. Sometimes it`s a little lighter than in other hairs. And this generally forms when you have a scalp that is in the process of decaying.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, in court today. Drew, I want to go back to the possibility that grandmother Cindy Anthony intentionally tried to trick the FBI. What are you hearing? I`m going to Drew Petrimoulx. Are you with me?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WBDO: I`m with you, Nancy. It had to do with this brush that she allegedly gave over to investigators, and you know, there was an e-mail saying that while she didn`t give the -- the brush -- excuse me -- that would have had the hair that Caylee had, that she gave a brush that maybe had Caylee and Casey`s hair on it.

GRACE: Everybody, as we go to break, program note. This Thursday night, a special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, an in-depth look at the critical first 24 hours after little Caylee goes missing, then -- reported missing. Then Friday, the critical first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony tries to give the appearance she`s cooperating with investigators, but Channel 9 has learned she and her husband, George, have been stalling for weeks in answering detectives` follow-up questions. Today, this e-mail surfaced. It appears that the Anthonys` former spokesman, Larry Garrison, says he confronted Cindy by e- mail about why she gave Casey`s hairbrush instead of Caylee`s hairbrush to investigators who wanted a DNA sample. He says Cindy`s e-mail response was this. Quote, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is grandmother Cindy now facing a possible charge of obstruction of justice? According to reports that are just surfacing as we go to air, the FBI instructs grandmother Cindy Anthony to go in and bring out little Caylee`s hairbrush, instead she brings out a brush that was shared with tot mom Casey Anthony. And what we know, or what we believe the results are, is that the hair found in the trunk where there was human decomposition is not matched only to little Caylee.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Your understanding of the match on that hair is that it matches to whom?

KOBILINSKY: Well, it matches to somebody who was maternally related to Cindy. That includes Cindy, of course, and Casey and Caylee, as well as Lee. But it can also match to roughly 2 percent of the Caucasian population, as well. Remember, there`s microscopic examination and there`s mitochondrial examination. And looking microscopically at this pseudo- exemplar from the brush, one could distinguish the three. On the other hand, with mitochondrial DNA, they`re all the same.

GRACE: Dr. Kobilinsky, mitochondrial DNA has been used for decades by our government to identify our soldiers overseas. And to my knowledge, there has never been a mistake in that match-up using only mitochondrial DNA. So let`s not cast aspersions on the use of mitochondrial DNA, which was not the question I asked you. I asked you specifically about the car (SIC) in the Pontiac belonging to tot mom. Now, let me ask you this, Dr. Kobilinsky...

KOBILINSKY: Yes?

GRACE: ... if the hair that was given to the FBI was, in fact, tot mom Casey Anthony`s, of course we`re not going to get a positive match to Caylee. If we were given a Caylee hair from the brush, isn`t it more likely we would get a match to Caylee, if, in fact, that was her hair in the trunk?

KOBILINSKY: You`d get a mitochondrial DNA match whether it was Caylee or Casey`s hair.

GRACE: What if there was a root?

KOBILINSKY: Well, if there was a root, that`s a whole other story now.

GRACE: Well, what if?

KOBILINSKY: The root...

GRACE: What if there was a root? Wouldn`t you get nuclear DNA match?

KOBILINSKY: OK. You can get a nuclear DNA profile if there is sufficient tissue in the root.

GRACE: Thank you, Dr. Kobilinsky.

Out to the lines. Tanya in Canada. Hi, Tanya.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has Casey`s parents visited her in jail recently? And if not, why?

GRACE: The answer to that is no. Out to Mark Williams with WNDB. In fact, since the formal charges came down, has there been a single visit from the family?

WILLIAMS: No, not from the family at all, Nancy. Lee has been absent. George and Cindy have been absent. The only visitors that she`s getting are late-night visits from attorneys.

GRACE: I want to go back to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. I`m very disturbed about those allegations. Right now, they are just allegations founded upon an e-mail, which I`ve got right here, an e-mail from a former spokesperson, apparently, of the Anthonys, back and forth between him and Cindy Anthony, talking about her not giving the correct brush to the FBI.

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: Dr. Kobilinsky, you are one of only three witnesses listed for the defense. You are clearly, and without a doubt, a renowned expert in your field. When, if at all, are you going to go and examine, for instance, this hair?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, examining the hair is not a problem, and I would be more than happy to go when I`m called to do that.

GRACE: When?

KOBILINSKY: But let me also...

GRACE: When?

KOBILINSKY: It hasn`t been decided. But what you were talking about with the root is just -- doesn`t make any sense because there is no root. If there was a root, you would have seen the nuclear DNA testing, along with statistics. You can be pretty sure, Nancy, that there is no root on that hair.

GRACE: How do you know, if you haven`t seen it? And my question is, you are an expert for the defense. Why haven`t they taken you to see the hair?

KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s up to Mr. Baez. When he wants me to look at the hair, I will do that.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Everybody, a bombshell tonight. Are there going to be obstruction of justice charges lodged against grandmother Cindy Anthony? She`s the one that kicked off this entire investigation. She`s the one that called police. She`s the one that was looking for little Caylee. Now we learn, based on these e-mails, did she intentionally try to mislead the FBI?

Kathi, where do these e-mails come from?

BELICH: Well, I`m not going to say where we got it. We got it from a source, a reliable source. We have tried to talked to Cindy Anthony about this. She`s not responded to our e-mail or our text messages. We`ve tried to speak with Larry Garrison about this, as well, and he`s not really responded to our questions about the e-mail. But we did get it from a reliable source, and we know that the FBI is investigating this. Larry Garrison said in his e-mail that he had reported this to the authorities, but we have yet to find anyone involved in the investigation who knew anything about this.

GRACE: Who is Larry? Who is Larry?

BELICH: Larry Garrison is the Los Angeles actor/author that served for a while for free as the Anthonys` spokesperson. You may remember...

GRACE: Right.

BELICH: ... a week or two ago, there was a falling out. He says the falling out actually is over this hairbrush issue.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, that spent time within the Anthony home when bond was first made. Leonard, what do you make of this development? You know all of them better than any of us.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Let me add fuel to the fire. Today, when I`m sitting there talking to Tracy about this development, she says, You know, that brings to mind something else. One day, Cindy walked in there and said, You know, when the FBI asked me for her toothbrush, I should have given them the brush that I use to brush the dog`s teeth. And Tracy says that George just about went into heart arrest, you know, like, Oh, my God, don`t be saying things like that. Now, I suggested that Tracy call the FBI first thing in the morning as a result of this development jogging her mind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I think she`s being coached to a point by Mr. Baez because his first inclination is to take care of her, but at the expense of my granddaughter. We`ve had that discussion with him. And would I have hired this guy? No, I would not have. He`s not our attorney. My daughter hired this guy, saying she could pay him. I don`t know how she`s going to pay him. She don`t work. She doesn`t have any money that I know of, unless she has something hidden somewhere that I don`t know about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did Cindy Anthony lie for her daughter? Does it -- is it tantamount to a lie? According to reports that have just surfaced, the FBI asked for little Caylee`s hairbrush to make a DNA match to hair from a deceased person found in the trunk. She gives a different brush.

Out to the lines. Gina, California. Hi, Gina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, thank you for -- I`d like to thank you for honoring our troops...

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... because we can pray -- all of us can pray for the families because of you.

GRACE: We certainly can.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I just -- I appreciate that so much. My question is, the video where Caylee is sitting on what appears to be maybe her great-grandpa`s lap, I`m not sure...

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She -- you guys had a little flash, a picture of it just a few minutes ago. Her eyes and the way she clings to him and the way she -- her eyes look at somebody, like she`s afraid, it -- I see fear in her eyes. And I have a 4-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter and...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you convinced -- and based on what you know as a law enforcement officer with your background, are convinced in any way that the maggots were solely caused by the pizza or do you think that there`s a distinct odor that you recognized that day that was in the car?

And you don`t have to answer if you don`t want to but I`m just -- I`m putting it out there based on what I know and I`m asking you your opinion.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: That distinct odor that`s something you never forget. That distinct odor I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that.

G. ANTHONY: I don`t want to believe it`s -- any other kind of -- any other thing but that pizza. I certainly try to believe at this moment. But I believe inside my heart I feel it`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That it`s not your granddaughter?

G. ANTHONY: Let`s put it this way. I`m hoping it`s not -- I want to believe it`s not. I mean I`m trying to believe it`s not, but then again, like I said, and you guys know, once you`ve smelled that smell you just -- you never get over it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: And today the case was back in court. The defense battling tooth and nail to avoid a gag order. You know, very typically, the shoe is on the other foot, the defense wants a gag order. I find this highly unusual.

Drew Petrimoulx, what happened in court, in a nutshell?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It was a big argument basically over who`s tainting the jury pool. The state attorney`s office says Jose Baez and Dr. Kobilinsky via his appearances on your show and other cable shows are basically tainting the pool by letting out information in this case.

Jose Baez took an extreme offense to that, saying that it`s the state attorney`s office who has tainted the pool by releasing information about the DNA, about the hair samples, about the chloroform in the car, and you know, call them the 800-pound elephant in the room, the -- kettle calling the pot black, because they were the ones that were actually the ones tainting the jury pool.

GRACE: Drew, it`s the pot calls the kettle black, FYI.

PETRIMOULX: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Greg McKeithen.

Ray Giudice, what do you think about the defense fighting a gag order? It`s usually the defense demanding a gag order.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And that`s right, and I think Mr. Baez somehow believes that he can turn the tide on this bad publicity over the next month or two before trial.

After today`s story about the hairbrush and maybe now the toothbrush, I submit he is wrong and he ought to cut his losses and agree to the gag order.

GRACE: And to Susan Moss, in Florida, they`ve got a very, very liberal sunshine act, which means pretty much everything becomes public. All of these documents and recordings were going to be made public anyway.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That`s right. Anyone could get access to these documents. I mean a gag order? Even Helen Keller has heard of this story.

GRACE: Long story short, though, when it comes down to it, it`s not the state leaking this. It is made public because of the -- sunshine in government act, Sue.

MOSS: That`s exactly right. So these documents are coming out sooner or later, and you know, you might as well have them out now.

GRACE: You know, Greg McKeithen, before you came a defense attorney, you and I practiced prosecution in the same office, and generally speaking, our rule was, never speak about a case to the press.

Whenever I was asked a question, I would uniformly say, I`m sure that our jury will reach the right verdict. Boom. End of story.

GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct, Nancy. That`s always the policy. That was my policy when I left the D.A.`s office. You don`t want to give the defense any grounds, raise any issues about any pretrial comments made by you as a prosecutor. So that was off limits.

GRACE: And Mike Brooks, correct me if I`m wrong, but I have not heard the prosecution on the morning talk shows talking about their cases the way I have the defense.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I haven`t heard the prosecution, Nancy. I haven`t heard the FBI, I haven`t heard anybody talking about their case. None whatsoever.

GRACE: And speaking about the FBI, what can you tell me about an FBI questionnaire, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: Well, it`s a questionnaire, Nancy, that they`re giving everyone to try to get a barometer, if you will, of where they`re coming from and what their thought processes are, and it helps them to determine what the line of questioning to their next possible witness could be.

And you know, it gives them just a good baseline on what these people say, and it`s given to each one of them. I mean we saw what Cindy`s was and what George`s was, and they were quite different.

GRACE: In what way?

BROOKS: Well, apparently, you know, she is trying to basically soften Casey, making her look like, you know, she is a, you know, the ideal mother and this kind of thing. Where George has been saying, well, as you know, she`s stealing from everybody, basically.

GRACE: Even out of her own kid`s piggy bank.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

GRACE: Let`s go back to Gina in California.

Gina, your question was about that photo of little Caylee sitting in her great grandfather`s lap, you thought she looked afraid?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because I have a granddaughter who`s 4, and their eyes show everything.

GRACE: We`re pulling up that photo right now.

Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, what do you think? Look.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s hard to tell with little ones, because when they`re tired, their eyes can glaze over, and their blink rate goes down. But Gina may be right. She may be afraid, maybe the mother is taking the picture.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Cindy in Florida, hi, Cindy. I think I`ve got Cindy. Cindy, are you there?

Let`s go to John in Missouri. Hi, John. Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m here.

GRACE: Hold on. Our satellite is down. Hold on just a moment. We`ll go straight back to the callers.

To Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150, bottom line in court today, we talked about a gag order. Why was the tot mom a no-show in court?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, she didn`t have to be in court today. And that was a question that was raised yesterday. And, of course, Orange County doesn`t talk about the transportation of high priority prisoners.

She was -- there was really no reason for her to be in court. Her next court appearance is going to be December 11th, when she has a pretrial hearing in an Orange County courtroom, just tantamount to the start of her trial on January 5th, Nancy.

GRACE: And today, more news. The Anthony family has their own press conference in which they blast police. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t care what it takes. Our goal is, we`re going to bring Caylee Marie back home. The last breath that I take, I`m going to continue to look for her. And I feel very confident, every day, that we are getting closer and closer to finding her, because I think, and maybe it`s because of the negative activity, and maybe the sheriff`s department gave us a blessing in disguise by saying case closed, Caylee is dead that people are letting their guard down, that finally they`re showing her out in public again in Orlando.

So I`m going to take that, and I`m going to continue to look for her.

Here is a little girl that this tipster said was Caylee. And she was kicking the backseat, the back of a chair, and saying, "You`re not my mama, I want my mama." And no one questioned whether or not that little girl belonged with the people in the airplane. No one except the tipster.

And that`s the sad thing because they would have had to have heard that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who has spent time with the Anthonys, do you really believe that George and Cindy think Caylee is alive?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: No. They -- they displayed the fact that they knew she wasn`t alive, even while we were there. And they were trying to come up with answers to the results from the Tennessee labs and the FBI labs.

Now, you could see Cindy really, really grasping for some kind of a result. Possibly prior to that, there was some thought that they wanted to believe Casey, but subsequent to that, you could really, really tell that Cindy wasn`t just believing it anymore, but she had to put up a front.

Also, in the time that Casey was with Tracy by herself, there was some very guarded moments there where Cindy herself would break down and cry. And these are times that were a window into Cindy`s soul, and her knowing that there was something definitely wrong with her granddaughter.

There was another time when we ran into a gentleman that told us that George was very upset, and was blaming Tracy for having used the family computer. And we asked Tracy, why did you use the family computer,. she says, I never did. And I said, well, why is George putting out that story?

And we came to the assumption that there was something on the family computer that shouldn`t have been there, and they`re going to blame it down the road on Tracy.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice, I`m not saying that I agree that the Anthonys believe little Caylee is dead. But if they do believe that, is this a charade to make the jury believe Caylee is still alive?

GIUDICE: Nancy, you know, I truly believe that these are very good grandparents who are confronted with the sad fact that their granddaughter is probably dead and that their daughter is going to serve the rest of her life in prison.

And I know you don`t like this story about no game book, but no game plan, but I don`t know how anybody deals with that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: All of the tips that we have received, pretty much all of them have been out of state. So we were dealing not only -- with the Orange County Sheriff`s Department are not the lead investigation -- investigators.

What they do is they authorize the out of state authorities to follow up. And that`s where we`re hitting that end, is there is no authority, there is no follow-up given to them. We have heard not only frustration from the tipsters, but also frustration from other law enforcement agencies as we did when we went to Gainesville a few weeks ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It started like any other day for 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. She left her job at the food market around 1:00 to pick up her son from daycare. But Nadia never made it.

The next day, Nadia`s abandoned car found in West Birmingham, Alabama. Her purse found on railroad tracks nearby. Railroad tracks in a wooded area. Police say they had someone in custody, but had to release them due to lack of evidence.

Police need your help in solving what happened to Nadia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Paul Finebaum with WJOX. Paul, what happened?

PAUL FINEBAUM, TALK SHOW HOST, WJOX, COVERING STORY: It`s a good question, Nancy. And we still don`t have any answers, or we know that she left her job at Tria market which is a posh food store in Homewood right outside of Birmingham about 1:00 to pick up her son at daycare, but never made it.

GRACE: How far was that from daycare?

FINEBAUM: About a mile away. And what`s interesting is -- obviously, what the police find so interesting is that her car was found about 15 minutes away, nowhere near there. It was found on the west side of Birmingham, near Elmwood Cemetery, which is interestingly where the famous Alabama football coach Paul Brian is buried.

Her purse was -- her car was found near a railroad tracks, and the purse was found on the railroad tracks.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. It is Nadia`s mother, Nancy Kersh.

Thank you for being with us, Miss Kersh. Miss Kersh, what do you -- what are police telling you about her disappearance?

NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING MOM NADIA KERSH: Well, we know that the case has turned from a missing person case to a criminal investigation at this point. Her car was found in West Birmingham. It was actually found in an isolated alley.

The purse was found on railroad tracks, in a very deep area that was overgrown. When I went to the bridge, the overpass, to look down below, you couldn`t see it. You really had to go under the underpass and see the area where the purse lay. So it`s a miracle that they found it.

I know that the -- that her phone was in her purse, and so the police have been able to track the individuals or certainly the phone`s whereabouts in West Birmingham, and actually in East Birmingham.

They do have a prime suspect. He is a man from Irondale, is what I know. And I know that they`re building a case.

GRACE: Tell me about this prime suspect, as you refer to him, Miss Kersh. Did he know her?

KERSH: I understand he was an acquaintance of hers.

GRACE: Now tell me, where did she work, Miss Kersh?

KERSH: She worked in Tria market. It`s sort of an upscale health food store.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, joining us out of New York, anyone could have come in and out as a customer.

SAUNDERS: Yes, they could have, Nancy. But we know that fully a third, if not a little bit more, of women who are homicide victims are killed by their significant others, their partners, their boyfriends, their husbands.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 8:00, I had to call Homewood, I called DHR and I called Homewood. They came out and he sent one of his guys over to check the house and look for the car and see some signs of him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helen Wilson is the director of ABC Daycare, where 23-year-old Nadia Kersh took her 1-year-old son Christopher every day. That`s why Wilson had to call police when Nadia didn`t pick him up.

According to Nadia`s boss at Homewood`s Tria market, Nadia left work for lunch at 1:00 and didn`t come back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did miss work, so we knew something was up then, and then -- but when we found out that she didn`t go to get her son, then we knew something was terribly wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Susan Moss, child advocate, that must have been incredibly confusing for the little boy for his mom not to come back.

MOSS: Well, absolutely. And although you certainly don`t want to lie to a child, and you -- you really have to be very soft in talking about where his mommy is, because I`m sure even a 1-year-old is looking around and noticing something different.

GRACE: To Nadia`s mother, Nancy Kersh, joining us tonight out of Montgomery, where is the little boy?

KERSH: The little boy is with a good friend of Nadia`s, and she is taking very good care of him. She has a very close relationship with our grandson, and he is comfortable with her, happy with her. And we just feel it`s important for him to stay there for now.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what should police be doing right now?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, initially they should have been going through, looking at any surveillance video of maybe the route that she would take to and from the daycare center, from her place of work. You know there was some surveillance, apparently, in a parking garage that showed her, but it looked like she was by herself, you know, checking her ATM card, had there been any activity on there.

I`m glad to hear from her mother that, apparently, they were able to use the cell phone that was in the purse to try to trace this person, this person they`re looking at right now, this chief suspect, as they call it, but there`s a lot of other things now that they need to do, talking to people close to her, friends and associates.

Again, just like any other investigation we always talk about, Nancy, you want to make sure that the people close to her are just taken out of the case, so they can focus her case on a good suspect.

GRACE: To Paul Finebaum with WJOX -- Paul, what can you tell us about this person of interest?

FINEBAUM: Well, the person of interest -- there are a couple -- there are three persons of interest right now, Nancy. One has been retained but no charges are filed. Another, of course, is reportedly her ex-boyfriend. They apparently dated a year-and-a-half, and have broken up, and I`m sure the mother could probably add more to that than I could.

GRACE: What about it, Miss Kersh?

KERSH: Well, I can tell you that the Homewood Police Department, with whom I`ve been in contact with on a daily basis has told me today that the ex-boyfriend has been cleared as a suspect.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, joining us out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, I guess at this juncture you`d have to treat the car as the only crime scene you`ve got, really. What would you do?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I think you`re right about the car but let me also redirect your attention to that purse.

GRACE: OK.

KOBILINSKY: That purse may have latent fingerprints or DNA. It may have been thrown by the assailant. And that could be a very key to tying this person of interest or suspect directly to the event.

GRACE: Kobi, you`re absolutely correct about that. Go ahead.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I think the car certainly is another point where clearly an assailant was in that car. And there may, again, be latent precipitations. There may be DNA on the steering wheel, on the door handle. There are a lot of things that police should be doing now, and they have to act quickly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scores of volunteer searchers, police still haven`t located 23-year-old Nadia Kersh, the mother of a 1-year-old, left work to pick up her son at daycare but never arrived.

Police recovered Nadia`s car abandoned. Nadia`s purse found on nearby railroad tracks. Investigators taking forensic samples, even asking NASA for satellite images in an attempt to find mom Nadia Kersh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started like any other day for 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. She left her job around 1:00 to pick up her son from daycare. But Nadia never made it. The next day Nadia`s abandoned car found in West Birmingham, Alabama, her purse found on railroad tracks nearby. Railroad tracks in a wooded area.

Police say they had someone in custody but had to release them due to lack of evidence. Police need your help in solving what happened to Nadia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois, hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, darling. I appreciate everything you do. Like the other lady, the tribute to the soldiers. That`s just something that`s wonderful.

I wanted to ask your psychologist or psychiatrist, is this something more progressive than we`ve seen in earlier times? I`m 53. I never heard of anybody disappearing when I was growing up.

GRACE: What about it, Dr. Saunders?

SAUNDERS: I don`t know that we have any reliable reporting. I think that these kinds of crimes have been happening for a long time and have flown under the radar, ma`am.

GRACE: Very quickly to Mike Brooks -- Mike, I do believe that this, these type of crimes are on the increase.

BROOKS: You know, it seems that they are on the increase, Nancy. It seems that way and you know with the technology that we have now in the media, all the affiliates at CNN has now, I think there`s more.

GRACE: Yes, we hear about it more, too.

BROOKS: We hear about it more, too, especially with over 800 affiliates that CNN has, Nancy. You know it -- I mean, it just comes to the forefront especially with stories like this, you know, that -- especially around the holiday season.

GRACE: Everybody, the tip line is 205-332-6262. There`s a $35,000 reward.

Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Frank Gasper, 25, Merced, California, killed Iraq. On a fourth tour. Awarded three commendation medals, National Defense Service medals, loved muscle cars, pickups and four-wheeling.

Dreamed of being a Green Beret and DEA agent. Favorite song, "My Infinite Love" by George Strait, a song he used on a video tribute to his family and friends should he lose his life in Iraq. Leaves behind mom Anita, sister Victoria, widow Brianna.

Frank Gasper, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/25/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

More Anthony Family Computer Searches Released

Aired November 26, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee. Over 700 pages of stunning new documents just released. And there are some major bombshells. Not only were there computer searches for chloroform in the week before Caylee goes missing, but we learn searches for ``neck-breaking,`` ``shovel,`` and key ingredients to make chloroform also discovered on the Anthonys` computer.
They Anthonys blame rotting pizza for the smell of death in mom Casey`s car, but new evidence reveals there was no pizza at all, just an empty box. And shocking new details about the slacks found in mom Casey`s abandoned car, plus more of Casey Anthony`s text messages surface. This time, she tells her live-in boyfriend she`s, quote, "the worst mother and hates myself" -- "and I hate myself" and says if cops don`t find Caylee, she will end up in jail. And we finally hear a description of the so- called nanny mom Casey claims kidnapped her little girl. But tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey, do you still think you`re an unfit mother?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over 700 pages of new documents have been released from the state attorney`s office. Not only did someone on the Anthony family computer search how to make chloroform, but they also searched "neck-breaking" and "making weapons out of household products."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) I made the greatest mistake that I ever could have made as a parent.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also in the documents are text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony to boyfriend Tony Lazzaro, where she says she is the dumbest person and the worst mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: My mom flat out told me yesterday she would never be able to forgive me, and I even told her I`m never going to be able to forgive myself. Every day I`ve been beating myself up about this. Every single day.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also breaking today, an Orange County judge has denied a request for a gag order, which the state says was necessary to keep a fair and impartial jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old girl named Caylee. Hundreds of bombshell documents just released.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The (DELETED) detectives told (DELETED) (DELETED) They got all of their information from me, yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`re -- they`re already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Documents just released by the state show someone on the Anthony family computer was searching "neck-breaking" and how to make chloroform. Text messages from the tot mom to Tony Lazzaro show what she was going through the day she was arrested, telling Lazzaro she was the dumbest person and the worst mother.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said, I`ve stolen money from you, you know, I`ve been untrustworthy, you know, and she goes, And maybe I have been a bad mother and a daughter and sister.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The documents were just made public hours ago, while the judge in this case has denied the state`s motion for a gag order on all parties involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: She opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother. And you know, maybe she`s right, maybe I am.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The biggest mistake was not calling you guys right off the bat. I understand all of that. It`s the biggest slap in the face, and I did that to myself. But the worst is I`ve done this to my daughter by allowing her to still be with someone else.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Hundreds -- and I`m talking hundreds -- of pages just released, and some of these things you will not believe. I want to go right out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s all of these hundreds and hundreds of pages? This is some unbelievable stuff.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Mike, this is not the first goat (ph) rope (ph) you`ve been to.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Seven hundred pages of documents released today by the state`s attorney`s office. They reveal some shocking searches on the Anthony home computer, including Google searches of words such as "chloroform," "how to make chloroform," "weapons out of household products" and the most disturbing of all, "neck-breaking." Now, there have been separate searches on Wikipedia. Whoever`s been on this computer has been a busy person. They reveal searches for words such as "acetone," "shovel" "inhalation" and "death."

Now, one note of interest, Mike, is the fact that we don`t know who was on this computer. The documents don`t show that. But one thing they did do is they went back and checked Cindy Anthony`s time card...

BROOKS: Right.

WILLIAMS: ... at work. She was working at the time this computer was accessed on line. So your guess is as good as mine.

BROOKS: OK, I want to go out to Kathi Belich, reporter for CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, who else in that house had access to that computer?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, it could have been George. The documents show George was not working at that time. Or it could have been Casey. Obviously, prosecutors believe it was Casey. That`s why they`re using this as evidence. That`s why it`s become public at this point. And you know, it`s important to note, too, that this was back in March. This was three months before Caylee had disappeared. And at the same time, Casey was also looking on line for missing children Web sites.

BROOKS: What kind of Web sites was she looking for for missing children?

BELICH: She was looking at several missing children Web sites. And you know, there was speculation that she was trying to figure out the circumstances under which other children had disappeared. And you couple that with this information and you wonder, you know, what she was looking at. Our legal analyst says it could go to motive and premeditation here.

BROOKS: Yes. I have to agree with you on that. You know, we talk about computers all the time. And I`m not a computer -- I don`t know that much about computers. I know how to turn it on. I know how to make it print.

But joining us by phone tonight from Raleigh, North Carolina, is Ben Levitan. He is a computer and telecommunications expert. Ben, thanks for joining us.

BEN LEVITAN, COMPUTER AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Thank you, Mike.

BROOKS: Now, help us break this down, would you? They have all this information from the computers. Now, is it possible to tell who signed on, who looked up these things, just from the time of day? I mean, what do they have to do when they -- from the time this person, whoever is using the computer -- it could be George. It could be Casey. We know the mother wasn`t home. You know, could it have been Lee? Tell us how they go about starting an investigation into who`s using a computer?

LEVITAN: Well, Mike, like you said, this case is full of circumstantial evidence. The fact that someone looked up these Web searches does not make them guilty of anything. So we...

BROOKS: No, no, but we`ve got -- we`ve got -- we`ve got, you know, a girl -- a little girl missing.

LEVITAN: Yes.

BROOKS: You know, everybody -- the evidence points that she`s -- she`s dead. And you know, we`ve got these things they`re looking up about neck-breaking, about chloroform, acetone, all these things. Now, how can we find out who signed on to the computer or maybe who had access to this?

LEVITAN: Well, we can`t tell who signed on, but we do know that whoever was using the computer was looking up this information and was doing it in a kind of casual manner. They were not afraid of being caught at it because if someone -- from what I`ve seen, most of the people in the Anthony family are very intelligent. And if they were concerned about being caught, they would have erased all this what we call computer history.

BROOKS: But can you really ever erase...

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: But can you ever even erase -- if you just hit delete and you erase it, you put it in trash and it`s gone, can computer experts retrieve that from the hard drive?

LEVITAN: Well, now, here`s how it works with a browser. Now, there`s different levels of technical capability...

BROOKS: Right.

LEVITAN: ... but you yourself can just -- on your own computer, you can see your own history. There`s a button that says "history."

BROOKS: Right.

LEVITAN: And it keeps a list of all of the Internet sites you`ve gone to in the past six months.

BROOKS: But if you delete that -- if I put "delete history," does that delete the history, or can they retrieve that from the hard drive?

LEVITAN: Well, now, that will delete the history, but it will be still embedded on the hard drive until it`s written over.

BROOKS: Interesting.

LEVITAN: OK? However, that`s not the only place. The second place is there something called temporary -- Internet temporary files. And very often -- every Web page has an expiration date. So if you download a page that has an expiration date of, say, next year, because the writer doesn`t anticipate...

BROOKS: Gotcha. Right.

LEVITAN: ... changing that page, that page will be stored right on your computer, so next time you request it, it will just pop up so it doesn`t clog the Internet.

BROOKS: Interesting. Does it also tell you how long they spent on this particular page? Is there kind of a history like that, too?

LEVITAN: Well, you can find that out, too, just by telling when the next access was. There`s only two conditions. You`re either going -- there`s certain conditions. When you`re looking at a page -- well, you could have brought up the page and walked away from the computer.

BROOKS: Gotcha.

LEVITAN: The only way we know is when the next page was accessed or the browser was closed.

BROOKS: Gotcha. Rosie (ph)...

LEVITAN: That`s the only thing we can tell.

BROOKS: Rosie, let`s take a look at some of those Web sites that they were accessing. I saw a couple in there that were kind of interesting, you know, that whoever at this house -- we have Toursex, I mean, missing kids, Sexsearch.com, Sweetsexy, World4U, Sexy -- I mean, whoever -- you know, why they were doing -- then there`s one dealing with escorts, Philadelphia escorts. It`s just -- it`s just a little strange.

I want to go out to our producer, Natisha Lance. She`s a producer for the Nancy Grace show. Natisha, how many computers did they seize from that house?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they have the home computer, which they seized, and they also have the laptop, which they seized, as well, which Casey was carrying around and claiming that it was her work computer. This was left over at Tony Lazzaro`s apartment when Cindy came to get her from the apartment. Lee Anthony went back to the apartment and got it, and police were able to go back later and get that laptop.

BROOKS: So they have both the laptop and the home computer.

LANCE: That`s correct.

BROOKS: Great. Folks, we`re taking your calls live. I want to go out now to Lisa in Missouri. Lisa, thanks for calling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks, Mike, for taking my call.

BROOKS: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question has to do with the evidence that Cindy -- the hairbrush that Cindy had given the FBI, knowing that it was not the correct brush. And I also want to ask about the jeans that she had taken out of the trunk of Casey`s car and washed. With her being a nurse, I have to wonder if she hasn`t known from the very beginning and has been more concerned with protecting Casey by getting rid of that evidence, as opposed to finding Caylee.

BROOKS: Well, you know, that`s a good question because, you know, right from the very beginning, we hear from Cindy. And we`re going to talk about Cindy a little bit more after a break. But you know, we hear Cindy - - initially, she talks about, Oh, there was something dead in the car. And then she says, Well, no, it was pizza. Now, we now find out that it was not rotting pizza. There was no pizza in the box. It was an empty box.

And then the pants. She was supposed to turn some pants over, and the FBI kept asking for, but they -- she never cooperated. So then they had to go ahead and get a search warrant and go to the house and get the pants.

But as we go to break, a program note. Tomorrow night, tune in for a special Nancy Grace investigation as we go inside the critical first 24 hours in the Caylee Anthony case. Then on Friday, an in-depth look at the first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s computer records just released this morning and show she Googled "chloroform" and also ingredients that could be used to make the potential deadly chloroform, peroxide, acetone and alcohol which could be found around the house, on the afternoon of Saint Patrick`s Day, March 17. The newly released records also show on March 21, she researched how to make chloroform, "self-defense," "household weapons," "neck-breaking" and "shovel."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Well, over 700 pages of documents released today. The staff has been going through it all day. There is some unbelievable things that you`re going to want to hear that`s in this.

But when our last caller, Lisa from Missouri, was asking about the pants -- I want to go out to forensic scientist -- noted forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky here in New York. And he`s also -- he`s with the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, and also a consultant to the Casey Anthony defense team. Koby (ph), thanks for being with us.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Sure. Good evening.

BROOKS: Now, the pants that they got out of the house. Now, if she washed these pants, could there be any evidence still left in the pants?

KOBILINSKY: I think it`s highly unlikely, Mike. I think that if you`re using detergent -- whether or not you use bleach, it`s almost irrelevant. But when you go through a typical washing cycle, you can remove trace evidence. You can remove stains of all sorts. I mean, that`s what the detergent is meant to do. So I think whatever was there is gone.

BROOKS: But what about blood? You know, sometimes you can try to wash off blood from a wall, and then you can use, you know, certain chemicals, luminol, for instance, to try to bring it back up. Can you do that with material?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you can. Luminol is a very sensitive procedure, and we have other presumptive tests for blood even more sensitive. But despite all of that, you can wash out a blood stain, especially if it`s not an old stain. Older stains become very fixed in fabrics and they stay there a long time. It`s very hard to get rid of it. But a relatively fresh stain can easily be removed.

BROOKS: What`s the best type (ph) of DNA will stay in clothing? What DNA is the strongest that will stay in clothing the longest?

KOBILINSKY: DNA will remain on clothing for a very long time, as long as you don`t use bleach, as long as you don`t use detergent to get rid of it. It`s a very stable substance and not easily degraded, not easily destroyed. But you can remove it if you try.

BROOKS: Now, I want to go back out to Kathi Belich, reporter for CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, tell us what was the deal with the hairbrush that our caller was asking about.

BELICH: Well, we obtained an e-mail that shows that her -- the Anthony family`s former spokesperson, Larry Garrison, had confronted Cindy about giving investigators not Caylee`s exclusive hairbrush, but rather a hairbrush that belonged to Casey. And we also obtained -- Cindy`s response to that was that she didn`t lie to investigators, she just didn`t walk to her bathroom to get the hairbrush that was exclusively Caylee`s.

And we did get a response from her last night about that. She says -- she claims that she told investigators she did give them a brush that was used not only by Caylee but also by Casey. That is what she`s claiming. But we would know that investigators would want Caylee`s exclusive hairbrush for DNA tests.

BROOKS: Absolutely. And she says she didn`t lie, but you know, does this -- does this go to her credibility?

Let`s uncage the lawyers. Out of Atlanta, prosecutor Eleanor Dixon from Cobb (ph) County, and Renee Rockwell, also from Atlanta, noted defense attorney, along with Alan Ripka here in New York.

OK, gang. What -- her credibility is shot, don`t you think, Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, I do think it`s shot totally, Mike. And here`s the thing. While she may have been well-intentioned, I wonder, too, if she wasn`t trying to protect Casey from something because that`s not a mistake that you`d easily make. She knew what the investigators wanted.

BROOKS: Absolutely. Alan Ripka, you see possible obstruction of justice charges coming here, or lying to a federal officer?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think so. I think if she was really trying to protect somebody, she wouldn`t have given any hairbrushes at all. She would have said she didn`t have one handy or didn`t know where they were.

BROOKS: You know that they would go ahead and just get a search warrant.

RIPKA: Well, maybe she could have gotten rid of them by then. First of all, she did hand over a hairbrush that she claimed was used by both of them.

BROOKS: After the fact, though.

RIPKA: Well, she knew at that time they were going to get the evidence that they wanted. So if she wanted to hide it, she could have gotten rid of the hairbrushes, and she didn`t.

BROOKS: Renee, weigh in.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I want to say she shouldn`t have gotten rid of the hairbrushes because, let me tell you something, Mike, if she did something deceptive, if she lied, don`t think that the feds are just going to walk away from this. I don`t see it. And I disagree with you, Alan. I think that there could be some potential charges.

BROOKS: And you know, and we heard also in the interview with the FBI, you know, she was, like, Oh -- just said totally opposite of what George said.

ROCKWELL: Well -- is that to me?

BROOKS: Yes, Renee.

ROCKWELL: Well, you`re going to see these people on the stand again. And I think now I`ve just about figured out why George went before the grand jury. I think they probably were asking him, Since mama was at work, who was on that computer during the day? Was that you making those searches? They`re trying to narrow down what was going on with that computer while mom was at work.

BROOKS: And Eleanor, you know, I know it`s not admissible in court, but I have used the polygraph as an excellent investigative tool. You know, if they have nothing to hide, why not give a polygraph to George and Cindy and Lee?

DIXON: You`re right, Mike. And besides, sometimes it can be used in court, if both parties stipulate to it. So again, if they have nothing to hide, stipulate to the polygraph and go forward. I think George testified in front of the grand jury because maybe that Cindy wasn`t going to tell the whole truth.

BROOKS: Yes, I think that could possibly be the truth because, you know, she started doing the -- you know, the old -- the backstroke right from the very beginning when she -- she wanted her daughter locked up the day -- you know, the day she reported to police. And now, you know, she`s defending her. You know, and since -- I just -- we`re going to talk again more about Cindy Anthony.

But I want to go out to Leonard Padilla, noted bounty hunter. Leonard, thanks for joining us.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Thank you, Mike. Thank you for having me here. And let me go on record. I`ll take a polygraph any time anybody wants. I have no problem with it.

BROOKS: By the way, have you taken the polygraph that the FBI asked you about yet?

PADILLA: No, no. They -- I`ve talked to them several times. And I`m trying to get a free trip back to Orlando and take it back there. I don`t care where they set it up. I`ll take it any time, and I don`t need a lengthy notice.

But let me explain something to you. If I was doing traveling as part of my job around the country and I was anticipating maybe seeing somebody or a young lady or sexual encounters or anything like that, I certainly wouldn`t use my computer. I`d go down to my sister`s computer and use her computer to do these searches.

BROOKS: Yes.

PADILLA: So there`s a lot of things there that somebody else was using her computer also. I don`t know who it was. But a lot of that stuff on there is just definitely not Casey`s.

BROOKS: Now, what about -- we talked about this last night a little bit. What about your assistant, Tracy (ph)? Have they tried to say that she was using the computer?

PADILLA: There was a situation that developed when we were down there the second time in Orlando, where a gentleman that`s a friend of George`s came up and said that George had gotten upset at Tracy because she had used the computer in the house and he was very upset because she didn`t ask permission. Myself and Rob asked Tracy, Did you use the computer? She said, No, I had my laptop the whole time, never used the computer in the house. So we told her, Well, George is setting you up for something that he did on that computer, and he`s going to say you did it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t care if it`s a year from now. Someone says that they saw Caylee -- and we`re still seeing (INAUDIBLE) we`re looking for her. I am going to go and look for her if someone calls me and said, I`ve seen her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: Fear of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, or not seeing my don`t go away again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: No one can say or second guess what you`re going to do to protect your child when you fear for their safety.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Dad, she`s safe. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter is safe.

CINDY ANTHONY: You know, we`ve got to be very mindful because anything we say not even thinking about it could be something that could put Caylee`s life in danger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Well, 700 pages of documents released today, with some unbelievable information in there. Text messages -- we`re going to talk about that -- some e-mails from Cindy`s brother -- we`re going to talk about that.

But I want to go back out to Natisha Lance, producer for the NANCY GRACE show. Natisha, what was the sheet of paper that was found in the car?

LANCE: There was a sheet of paper that has Casey`s name on it, and she had written her name with Tony Lazzaro`s last name on it. So it seemed like, you know, they were in a new relationship, a young relationship, and she was writing "Casey Lazzaro" on the sheet of paper.

BROOKS: Yes, you know, I`ve got the sheet of paper right here, and it`s really strange -- Casey Lazzaro, Casey M. Lazzaro, Casey -- I mean, I -- and all different handwriting. I didn`t know what to make of that.

I want to go out to our criminal profiler, Pat Brown, joining us from Washington. Pat, what do you think of, you know, this sheet of paper with all this different writing on it?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it sounds like a teenager, somebody who`s not very mature, as we did when we were kids in school, girls would sit there and write boys` names and, you know, match them up and pretend you were -- you know, that would be your married name. So I think she was fantasizing about her future.

I do want to point out one thing that Mr. Padilla said which I totally disagree with. He says because there were sex sites accessed on the computer, escort agencies, that this couldn`t possibly have been Casey`s. Maybe Casey`s looking for a new job as a hooker. She`s got to make money somehow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New records show Casey Anthony was online on March 22nd, Googling neck-breaking, shovel, household weapons, self defense, and how to make chloroform. Four days earlier on Saint Patrick`s Day, she was researching the makings of chloroform, household items like peroxide, acetone and alcohol. Right around the time she was looking at missing children Web sites.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How do you deal with what they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots that stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But like almost every statement her daughter Casey has head, it`s just not true. There was no pizza in the trash bag in Casey`s trunk. Just an empty pizza box.

There were flies and maggots in the trunk, along with Caylee`s hair and it turns out that trash bag came from her boyfriend`s apartment, which even he doesn`t understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace.

Well, let me see now. Flies, maggots, a pizza box. But no pizza. Sorry, Cindy, there was no pizza in that box. So what drew the maggots and the flies? We don`t know.

You know, earlier today, Cindy Anthony was on the "Today" show. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY: I said from day one that Caylee needs a voice and I`m her voice. If they had such a great case, they wouldn`t care about following up on leads. My only goal is finding my granddaughter.

I`m not worried about building some case against, you know, the prosecution to prove that, you know, a reasonable doubt. Either they have a case or they don`t. Bottom line is, Caylee is missing. And if there`s a tip out there, I`m going to follow up on it.

If they choose not to, that`s their prerogative. But they told me months ago that nothing is 100 percent. So if there`s 1 percent that she is still out there, I owe that to her, and I would think they would owe it to her, too. But if they choose not to, it will be on their hands when she comes home.

Something was decaying in there. And the forensic reports, they will reveal it. Right now, I`m not worried about that. You know, that was 15 days after the worst thing that ever happened to him in his life. His granddaughter is missing. His daughter is in jail. And he`s still in shock.

So, you know, we messed up this first date of when the last time we saw Caylee. We thought it was the 8th when actually it was the June 16th. So, unfortunately, when you`re going through a lot of stress, you know, you just -- your mind doesn`t work exactly the way, you know, you would normally want it to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: That`s Cindy Anthony on NBC`s "Today" show.

Well, I`m sorry, Cindy, you know, you keep bashing the police. They are doing the best to try to find the body of your granddaughter. You know, you say they`re not following up on leads?

Well, we heard from the sheriff`s office, and yes, they are following up on leads. If they get a sighting, they let the police department in that particular jurisdiction handle the case.

Also, one of the other things that was in this 700-page documents was an e-mail. A very, very interesting e-mail from Cindy`s brother, Rick, to Cindy Anthony. And I quote, "Has anyone seen the friggin` babysitter? This is the friggin` question. If you can`t answer yes or no, then I have nothing more to say to you.

No grandparent that I know doesn`t know who is babysitting their grandchild. You have never seen this person. Who has seen her? If you can`t answer me, then count me out. Either produce a witness or forget it. This is not a, quote, `do you believe in God situation.` Have faith.

Your ignorance is intolerable. I am your brother, and I demand to know if anyone other than Casey has seen this stupid sitter. If you can`t answer that simple request, then you all -- are all by yourself on this. You need to get some psychiatric help."

Well, I tell you what, that is from her brother, Cindy Anthony`s brother.

Right now, I`d like to bring in from Los Angeles Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."

Bethany, you just heard that from her own brother.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Yes.

BROOKS: And, you know, we`ve seen this whole family. George, Cindy, Casey, Lee. There`s a strange, strange family dynamic here. Help us figure that out.

MARSHALL: Well, I think that what has happened is that Cindy Anthony has developed this elaborate -- almost like a fanatical religious belief system about her own daughter. Almost like people who hold dogmatic beliefs.

And the belief system is designed to ward off the fact that her own daughter could be homicidal. And the belief system started a long time before little Caylee went missing, and the brother, looking from the outside in, as we as the public are looking from the outside in, begins to confront Cindy on this fanatical belief system about her own daughter.

And I think what this points to now is maybe the washing of the pants was because she was protecting Casey. Maybe giving the wrong hairbrush was an attempt at deception of the police.

And maybe -- and I agree with the attorneys on this, that the reason George Anthony went in and testified in front of the grand jury is that he does not have a voice at home in front of Cindy, just like her own brother did not have a voice. And this is the one chance he had to go in and tell the truth about what was happening.

BROOKS: You know, I have to agree with you, Bethany, because all along, I`m kind of seeing a family where George may try to inflict some, you know, some punishment on Casey or correct Casey. And it`s Cindy, no, no George, George, now, don`t do that. She -- it`ll be OK. And I think George has just had enough of it.

MARSHALL: I think so. And what`s really -- what is emerging is that the mother is ending up being almost as deceptive as the daughter. So we wonder how does all this pathological lying get started? Maybe we are getting a case study in that.

And I have to throw in one more thing.

BROOKS: Sure.

MARSHALL: I think what Leonard Padilla said about him implicating George Anthony on going and looking for sex sites, I think that was mean- spirited and low at a time like this.

And I think the fact is that Casey may have joined in her own mind getting rid of her daughter and then going out and looking for escorting work at the same time. That seems to make a lot more sense in this situation.

BROOKS: It does seem.

We`re taking your calls live. Eleanor in Florida, thanks for staying with us, Eleanor. You have a question. We have Eleanor from Florida? How about Joanne from New York?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m here.

BROOKS: Hi, Joanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m -- hi, how you doing?

BROOKS: Good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m curious. I know that everybody said that the boyfriend has been cooperative. But I find it very odd that George said from, like, three feet away with the car being all sealed up, all locked up and everything, that the smell was horrible.

And I know that the boyfriend went to pick Casey up when she called when her -- when she called initially that her car had died. I find it strange he didn`t notice the smell. And I was wondering if maybe Leonard Padilla knows whether or not the boyfriend took a lie detector test.

BROOKS: I believe that he did, didn`t he, Leonard?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Jesse took a lie detector test, and I believe Tony Lazzarro did also.

BROOKS: Yes.

PADILLA: But let me, let me come back on something that took place one night while we were there. George actually, at the top of his voice, said I can`t stand this anymore. I`m tired of living a lie. I`m not going to do this anymore. And his friend, Jim Smith, who was a cop with him up in Warren, Ohio was there as a witness to that statement that George made that night.

And I wasn`t implicating George in those sex searches. He`s not the one that was traveling out of town on his job going to other cities. Think about that, ma`am.

BROOKS: Now I will also go back out to the lines. Chris from Oklahoma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, how are you?

BROOKS: Good, buddy. You have a question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, some of the terms that you had on the search terms, I noticed that it said "sex tour" up there. And automatically, in my mind, I mean, I`ve watched a lot of these new shows, and, you know, you hear about these people that they get involved with selling their children off to, like, sexual slavery and those type of criminal organized, you know, things overseas.

BROOKS: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`m wondering if they`ve looked into that, that maybe this is a deal gone wrong, or something like that.

BROOKS: Mark Williams, news director from -- I`m sorry, WNDB News Talk 1150. Have you -- have they looked at all into that? You know it sounds like the Joran Van Der Sloot case.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, you know, here`s the one thing, Mike, is the fact that they`ve probably looked into that. But let`s just take a look at the facts. The cadaver dogs hit in the back of the car.

BROOKS: Right.

WILLIAMS: Hit two spots in the back of the Anthony household by the swimming pool and under a, under a little play house that they had. The FBI, in their evidence, have said that Casey -- little Caylee is dead, the Orange County Sheriff`s Office keeps talking about it.

And, of course, you know, we get Cindy Anthony on "Today" -- on the "Today" show this morning, same song, same verse, poor-mouthing the Orange County Sheriff`s Department, who Leonard Padilla says is one of the top 10 investigative units that he has ever run into.

BROOKS: No, and I know the Orange County Sheriff`s Department.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BROOKS: I mean I -- I know folks down there. And the FBI, you`re going to say that the FBI lab is wrong also? I just, I just don`t get it.

I want to go back out to the attorneys, Eleanor Dixon out of Atlanta, Renee Rockwell and Alan Ripka out of New York.

Should Cindy Anthony just stay off TV and keep her mouth shut, Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: I think so. Something interesting she said on the "Today" show is something was decaying in that trunk. Well, think about it, Mike. What was decaying in the trunk? It was a human body, probably Caylee`s in which the cadaver dog hit on.

BROOKS: Well, you know, Alan, their attorney, Mark Nejame, he`s -- I think he threw his hands up and said, you know, no more. I can`t take this anymore, and he`s no longer representing them.

Do you think that somebody should just tell them, look, just stay in your house, keep your mouth shut, because do you think they`re hurting the case by coming out like this?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s always better when your client, their family and anybody else doesn`t make any statements, because oftentimes those statements could be used against your client during the course of trial.

In this case, however, it`s funny. The motion was made for a gag order by the prosecution. It`s usually made by the defense. And in this case, I thought all these statements were helping the defense.

By having all these people come out and make all these statements, they were gaining valuable information and evidence, but they chose to try to gag it, and it didn`t work for them.

BROOKS: Right.

Before we go to break, we ask for your thoughts and prayers for little 5-year-old Pensacola friend, Joey. After receiving a kidney transplant just two years ago, Joey is in the hospital fighting pneumonia.

Joey, please get well soon. We`re thinking of you, buddy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has worked so hard all of her life to make sure that you have kids to be proud of, she has kids to be proud of. And other people can be proud of her family.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That that perception on her part is being shattered right now, and she doesn`t want to admit that yet.

G. ANTHONY: I know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Subjects such as responsibility and dependability, she rated her extremely high in all of them.

G. ANTHONY: Wow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And -- that`s one reason I didn`t want you to think that I was just saying earlier that your wife is seeing through -- things through rose-colored glasses or things but that`s actually what she is telling us, and she`s putting it in writing. That this, this is how she feels about her and how she views her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace.

Over 700 pages of documents released by the state`s attorney`s office today, and some of the information on it you will not believe. Computer searches. Somebody searching a computer on neck-breaking, chloroform, death, shovel.

Who`s making these -- who`s making these searches? We don`t know. How to make chloroform? Household weapons? It looks like -- you know, as you might -- whoever, I don`t want she. Whoever this was should have just gone out and gotten the anarchists cookbook or the book, "How to Get Even."

I just don`t understand it but there`s -- and there`s plenty more.

I want to go back out to Kathi Belich, reporter for CNN affiliate WFTV.

Kathi, there was also something in there about Casey Anthony stealing from her grandmother. What was that all about?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, she`s stolen from her grandmother apparently more than once. She wrote a check to a grocery store chain here for 50-some dollars, and then at some point after that, hundreds of dollars to pay for her phone bill, her cell phone bill.

And actually, her grandmother told investigators that she did confront Casey about stealing the money. It was actually stolen from an account that was dedicated to her grandfather`s assisted living facility payment for that.

BROOKS: Nice.

BELICH: For those services. And even her grandmother didn`t have access to that account. But she said that Casey did admit it to her and she forgave her for Casey`s and for Caylee`s sake, as well.

But apparently, when this came to light, this caused a lot of tension between Cindy and Casey, already a tense relationship, and apparently there was a big argument about that very thing on Father`s Day after Cindy had visited with Caylee, and had visited the grandparents.

And they were talking about that money again. And there was a big fight, apparently, on Sunday, and the documents show that apparently Cindy might have grabbed Casey by the neck the day before she and Caylee took off, the last day that anyone had ever seen Caylee alive.

BROOKS: So Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer, do you think it was this fight that could have kind of kicked everything off?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it`s a possibility. There are reports previously that said that Cindy Anthony was seeing a counselor, and this counselor had told her that she needed to cut Casey off, put Casey out of the house.

And on that 911 tape, you do hear Cindy saying I gave you 30 days, so perhaps it could be referring to her putting her out of the house and giving her some time to get her act together. But we don`t know for sure.

BROOKS: Bethany Marshall, a psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers," this behavior, this whole stealing -- I mean she steals from everybody, you don`t leave your checkbook around this woman, that`s for sure. I mean she stole from her best friend, she`s stolen from her parents, we heard that right in the very beginning, and now her grandmother.

MARSHALL: Well, I think for Casey the world is a piggy bank, OK? So she steals from her grandmother.

BROOKS: And she did -- stole from her daughter`s piggy bank.

MARSHALL: She took the money out of her child`s own piggy bank. She steals from her parents. Maybe if she was looking at escorting sites, maybe she was going to see men as piggy banks or marks so she could take money off of them in an illicit kind of way, but if this is true, it could provide a powerful motivation for homicide, because maybe George and Cindy were spending their money, their piggy bank, so to speak, on Caylee, the granddaughter.

And that built up a great deal of resentment on Casey`s part towards her own parents and towards the little girl, and that could have been sort of the boiling point that was taking place in the household.

BROOKS: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection. I know she`s been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank, because I`m always dropping five bucks, quarters, you know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy, that`s a good- sized piggy bank and you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: That`s Casey`s dad talking about her stealing from her own daughter.

I want to go back out to Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer. We also see in these documents, Natisha, a detailed description of the so-called nanny.

LANCE: That`s correct. There is a detailed description of the nanny. Now I spoke to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office, and they said -- I asked them, why didn`t they put out a composite sketch, and why didn`t they make this description available previously.

And they said that up until this point, even now, Casey has never told the truth about anything. So they didn`t want to put anything out there that would mislead the public, send them on a wild goose chase. But this description said that Zenaida was about 5`7", had curly brown hair, brown eyes, weighed 140 pounds, and she had a lot of money.

BROOKS: She had a lot of money. Hmmm. Did she have bills hanging off of her clothes? I mean, how does she -- well, first of all, we know that there is no Zenaida Gonzalez to begin with. And she had lots of money.

It seems like this young lady was obsessed with money, Pat Brown.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": The funny thing about that is how many people who have lots of money do daycare? Usually you do daycare because you really need some.

Casey likes to fabricate and she fabricates anything that is useful to her. So at any point in time where she needs to come up with a new story that she thinks can convince somebody of her innocence or put her in a better light she`s going to make a story up. So you cannot believe what she said.

BROOKS: It seems like if her mouth is moving she`s lying.

Let`s go out to the phones. Karen from Pennsylvania, thanks for joining us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was -- my question is, I was just kind of wondering with all of the lies that Cindy Anthony has told and everything, has anyone thought about the possibility that -- the fact that maybe she is willing to take an obstruction of justice charge to create enough doubt that at least one jury member will be swayed and her daughter will escape the death penalty?

BROOKS: Renee Rockwell, what do you think?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, and you can`t blame her, that`s her daughter, that`s her blood. And I don`t -- I wouldn`t blame her at all. But she`s going to be prosecuted.

BROOKS: But Alan, what do you, what do you -- I mean, come on. Should there be an obstruction of justice charge? I think if they find out that she did this, and they say -- she has told people that, you know, I gave them the wrong one, she should go -- she should be locked up.

RIPKA: I mean, at the end of the day, what are you going to do? You`re going to start prosecuting the grandmother of a -- dead baby? I think you`re going out of bounds here and I don`t think they`re going to take the time to do it.

BROOKS: I think -- hey, put the cuffs on her, put the cuffs on her, take her to jail as far as I`m concerned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: The biggest mistake was not calling you guys right off the bat. I understand all of that. It`s the biggest slap in the face and I did that to myself. But the worse is I`ve done this to my daughter by allowing her to still be with someone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: Over 700 pages of documents released by the state attorney`s office today. And included in those documents are a whole series of text messages from tot mom to her boyfriend at the time, Tony Lazzaro, on the early morning of July 16th. It starts off at 7:02 a.m. from Casey.

"I`m the dumbest person and the worst mother, I honestly hate myself. The most important thing is getting Caylee back but I truly hope that you can forgive me. Granted I will never be able to forgive myself. No."

Then Tony asks, "Are you open? Yes, almost 12 hours of stuff, finally getting a shower. I feel like hell."

Tony: "Where did you drop off Caylee the last time you saw her?" She says, "At the apartment at the bottom of the stairs. Where? Sawgrass Apartments. I`ve showed and told the police the apartment."

And it goes on from there. But we know now that it is all a lie.

Eleanor, this doesn`t look good for her, does isn`t it?

DIXON: It doesn`t. The best thing the prosecutors can do is to use her own words in her prosecution to show that she is a constant liar. So this is great for the prosecution.

BROOKS: Renee, how would you, how would you defend things like that?

ROCKWELL: Mike, just because she`s a liar does not make her a murderer.

BROOKS: But she hasn`t told the truth from the very beginning.

ROCKWELL: I know that.

BROOKS: About anything.

ROCKWELL: She`s her own worst enemy. But there might be a juror that thinks that this child is still alive and that -- or that she might be protecting somebody.

BROOKS: Alan, you agree, yes or no?

RIPKA: At the end of the day the jury can`t convict based upon these lies that you believe she`s made. There`s no dead body, there`s no physical evidence.

BROOKS: Thank you, Alan.

Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class Jason Dene, 37, from Castleton, Vermont, on a third tour of duty in Iraq. Dene dreamed of joining the military as a young boy, serving 20 years. He lost his life just one month before he was set to return home. He leaves behind parents Tisa, Teri widow -- Teri widow Judith, and three children.

Jason Dene, a true American hero.

Thank you to all our guests and you at home for being with us. A special good night from New Hampshire friend Shelby.

We`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, stay safe.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/26/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Facts and Evidence in the Caylee Anthony Case

Aired November 27, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony is a 22-year-old mother. That`s a fact. This is her beautiful 2-year-old Caylee. That`s also true, but the rest of the story is blurry, at best, false at worst.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony claims she dropped her daughter off at this apartment on June 9th and when she came back the babysitter was gone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything she has told them so far has led nowhere. The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee`s mother, Casey, abandoned her white 1998 Pontiac in the parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell what she knows about Caylee`s whereabouts and the little girl`s well being.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff`s deputy has testified Casey Anthony`s car did smell of decomposition and one of the dogs smelled human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her own mother locked up in jail continues to keep her secret locked up as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: A beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl Caylee Anthony vanishes into thin air last seen by her mother. In a stunning twist, baby Caylee go on for an entire month before she`s even reported missing and it isn`t her mom who finally calls 911. It`s little Caylee`s grandmother.

So why didn`t mommy call police? The grandma`s 911 call ignites a desperate search. A police investigation and lie after lie by the tot mom, but still, no sign of Caylee.

Tonight, the crucial first 24 hours in the search for Caylee and the police investigation that follows.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE (voice over): Amazingly, it all starts here at this local check cashing shop Amscot. Casey Anthony`s white `98 white Pontiac Sunfire left abandoned in the parking lot for days. Mom Casey calls Anthony Lazzaro, saying she`s run out of gas.

He shows up and Casey Anthony leaves the Pontiac behind saying her dad will take care of it.

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I got a call that to come pick her up that she ran out of gas. I asked her where she was and she said that she ran out of gas at that corner and that somebody helped her push her car into the Amscot. So then I went and picked her up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No child that night before?

LAZZARO: No child with her at all. She had some groceries and some clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were the groceries from?

LAZZARO: They weren`t actually groceries from the store. It was from her house. She had some freezer pops and like some Tyson chicken or something to make for dinner that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From grandma`s house?

LAZZARO: Yes, because it wasn`t in any bags. It just looked like normal plastic bags.

GRACE: June 15th, Casey Anthony`s parents George and Cindy Anthony get a letter from Johnson`s Wrecker Service. It reveals the tot mom`s car has been towed to the wrecking yard and has been sitting there for nearly two weeks.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We received a registered letter. It was stuck on our door. I did not find that registered letter until the Sunday before Tuesday which was, what, 13th, I guess, and when we opened it up -- I mean, it just says that there was a registered letter waiting for us at the post office because, obviously, you can`t go find out on that Sunday.

So the letter was stated that was put on my door on the 11th, but I didn`t find that letter until the 13th. On the 14th, my husband had a chance to go get the registered letter. So that`s why I was talking technical because you`ve been so technical and I`m trying to be as cooperative as I can, so on the 15th is when we got the registered letter, my husband did, and when he found out it was from a towing company is when we found out about the car.

GRACE: George and Cindy Anthony head to Johnson`s wrecking yard and it`s there, the heart wrenching story of Caylee Anthony begins to unravel.

After settling the $500 towing bill, the manager leads George to his daughter`s car. When they open the driver`s side door, the car wreaks with the smell the manager tells police knocks him back. It`s the smell of human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: The wrecker, I don`t know what the genetleman`s name, I still don`t know, I`m sure you guys know by now, but he said, whoa, does that stink. I said -- I sat in the car for a second and I opened up the passenger door because I was trying to vent that thing.

GRACE: At this point grandmother Cindy hasn`t seen her granddaughter for three weeks. She finds a scrap of paper inside Casey Anthony`s car. On it, the phone number for Anthony`s friend, Amy Huizenga. Also left behind, Caylee`s favorite baby doll. She refused to go anywhere without the doll, day or night.

Determined to find her daughter and her granddaughter, Cindy Anthony calls the friend Amy.

In the meantime Casey Anthony is driving Amy Huizenga`s car while she`s on vacation. Well, unfortunately, Huizenga left something behind, her checkbook.

Anthony caught on grainy surveillance video at a local bank and Target allegedly forging friend Amy`s check, racking up hundreds of dollars worth of lingerie, sportswear, grocery, even cases of beer. No toys, no diapers, no baby clothes, nothing, not a single thing for little Caylee.

Casey Anthony`s check scheme later lands her multiple fraud and theft charges.

CAPTAIN ANGELO NIEVES, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: Orange County`s Sheriff`s Office detectives return to the Anthony residence and place the defendant under arrest for violation of Florida statutes dealing with economic crimes. The defendant was placed into custody without incident and transported here to the Orange County main office for processing of her paperwork.

The defendant is under arrest currently for violation of Florida statutes dealing with (INAUDIBLE) a forged instrument, fraudulent use of personal information and petty theft. She had used some moneys and checks and an account that did not belong to her. It belonged to someone else. That was known to her and that was a violation of Florida state law.

You have the investigative process. You have to make sure that you have your information that`s collected. We have to have information back from the banking institution so there`s a number of dots that we need to point and make sure that our homework is properly done, and we`ll continue to do so.

Remember that there isn`t any investigation of this magnitude. You have allegations and additional charges that may surface and we`ll continue to investigate those as well.

GRACE: Between 2:00 and 4:00 p.m. Casey Anthony stops at the Cast-Iron Tattoo shop and makes an appointment. She then heads to the Orlando International Airport to pick up friend Amy Huizenga. Amy Huizenga back from Puerto Rico, a trip Casey wanted to make herself, but claims Caylee was the reason she couldn`t go.

After picking up her so-called friend, Huizenga drops Casey off at her current live-in`s apartment, Tony Lazzaro. Amy drives off with no idea she`s about to become involved in a major dispute between Cindy and Casey Anthony.

According to police, Huizenga received a disturbing call from Cindy Anthony desperately wanting to talk to Amy. Cindy Anthony tells Amy if she doesn`t find Casey, Casey Anthony will end up behind bars.

AMY HUIZENGA, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FRIEND: The grandma called me and pretty much wondering where her daughter and granddaughter were. Briefly explained some of the situation. Offered to come pick me up from the mall.

After some deliberation I decided to pick her up on that offer. She sounded very concerned and told me that if she did not find Casey she would end up in jail. And I.

CPL. EDWARDS: Grandma said that?

HUIZENGA: Yes. I decided to trust her.

DET. RIVERA: Did you ask her why she would make a statement like that?

HUIZENGA: Well, she has told me that the car had been in impound since the 30th and they had just gotten it off. She hadn`t seen Caylee. She was pretty panicky.

GRACE: Cindy tells Huizenga about the letter from the tow company and the stench of the trunk of Casey`s car. Amy confides the tot mom told her she`d run over something, an animal, with the car.

CPL. EDWARDS: Grandma ever ask you about a smell coming from the car?

HUIZENGA: She told me about the smell in the car ride back to Tony`s place. After she had picked me from the Florida mall, that was -- she was telling me the story about, you know, the fact that she had gotten a letter from the impound saying that the car had been impounded since the 30th. They went to go pick it up. And that the car smelled like something had died. And.

CPL. EDWARDS: Grandma tells me that and at that point I`m like, oh yes, Casey told me she had run something over with her car. And then proceeds, she proceeds to tell me, she`s like, oh well, you know, we didn`t know that. But proceeds to tell me the rest of the story that the impound law because they couldn`t, did have the keys.

DET. RIVERA: Yes, but didn`t you say that that Casey blamed her dad for running something over?

HUIZENGA: Is what she told me but we now know that.

DET. RIVERA: That`s what she told you.

HUIZENGA: . nothing Casey says is true.

GRACE: But Cindy Anthony goes on to blame the smell on pizza boxes. Pizza boxes rotting left sitting in the car.

C. ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza, for what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggot that stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

GRACE: Next the so-called babysitter Casey Anthony claims is a kidnapper.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Cindy Anthony reveals multiple lies Casey Anthony has told. Grandfather George never had a mini stroke.

G. ANTHONY: There is no ridiculous question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have a stroke on the 13th? That you were treated at the hospital before?

G. ANTHONY: No. Curious where you got that from.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll shed light on it for you. You don`t look like you`ve had a stroke last month.

G. ANTHONY: Well, put it this way. I thought I almost did because I did get -- but that was about four, three years ago just before I had my knee replacement or something like that, but.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your daughter, it seems, has a pattern as if she`s made a date with a friend or scheduled to do something and if she needs to come up with a reason not to do it. Instead of just saying I don`t feel like going, she comes up with that you had a stroke on the 13th and she was unable to go to Jacksonville with someone because she was busy at the hospital with you. So it`s always on the extreme.

G. ANTHONY: That`s extreme, all right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

G. ANTHONY: Because if I had a stroke I wouldn`t be sitting here talking to you guys. I mean, let`s put it this way, if I was, it would be sort of a miracle so I would have.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still had to ask.

G. ANTHONY: Oh I know. This is getting so bizarre. This is just unbelievable.

GRACE: George and Cindy were no longer getting a divorce and Casey Anthony stole money from her parents and the grandparents.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Stolen money from mom, I`ve been a bad daughter. You know, I`ve been -- she said I`ve stolen money from you. You know, I`ve been untrustworthy. You know? And she goes, and maybe I have been a -- you know, a bad mother, a daughter and sister.

GRACE: Cindy Anthony even questions whether Casey has a job, asking Amy where does Casey work. Well, Amy says Universal Studios. Cindy also claims Casey is an unfit mother and vows she plans to seek legal custody of little Caylee.

HUIZENGA: She said that she was worried she hadn`t seen Caylee. She hadn`t talked to Caylee in over a month. Casey kept saying she`s fine. She`s with the nanny and she pretty much, you know, said that she thought Casey was an unfit mother and that if this goes on much longer that she would sue for custody of Caylee if it got to that.

DET. RIVERA: Why did she think she was an unfit mom?

HUIZENGA: The going out, the partying. She -- I don`t know if you guys have seen the picture of Casey and the American flag. That`s from a no- clothes party that we went to in May.

She pretty much showed that picture that she had printed it off from a computer in her face and said you`re at work, huh? And so that she had been watching Caylee and Casey had said she was at work. And it was the going out, the partying.

DET. RIVERA: That was the no clothes party?

HUIZENGA: Yes.

DET. RIVERA: So she was with the mom at the no clothes party?

HUIZENGA: Yes.

GRACE: Then we learned about Cindy and George Anthony, scared to open Casey`s car trunk. That was when they picked it up from the tow yard. They were both terrified Caylee was dead inside.

CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: When I first saw you that night, when I first came to your house, there was a mention of the car. And there was a mention of what you smelled in the car. Do you remember what you told me?

G. ANTHONY: I believe that there`s something dead back there. I hate to say the word human. I hate to say that. When I first went there to pick up that vehicle I got within three feet of it. I could smell something.

You look up and you say, please don`t let this be, please don`t let this be, because I`m thinking of my daughter and my granddaughter first. I glance in the car on the passenger side, I see her seat is there. I see some other stuff around in it. As I walk around to the driver side and put the key in it, I said please don`t let this be what I think it is.

GRACE: 7:30 p.m. that night, Amy lead Cindy straight to Casey Anthony at boyfriend Tony Lazzaro`s apartment.

LAZZARO: What happened was I was just sitting there with my roommate Nathan. We were playing video games and she -- and Casey was sitting there at the couch also on the laptop, and then all of a sudden there was a knock on the door and I said come in and there was Amy just standing there with a miserable face.

And we were all -- we all looked confused and then Casey then proceeded to go outside and it was me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then I would say about a half hour later Casey and her mother Cindy Anthony came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears and her mom said get your things. You`re coming with me.

And Casey said no, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, no, get all your things.

GRACE: A mother/daughter confrontation ensues outside the apartment with Cindy demanding Casey lead her to Caylee. Casey repeatedly insists Caylee`s fine and with a nanny.

Getting nowhere, Cindy Anthony forces Casey into the car. The blowup continues in the car with Grandmother Cindy confronting the tot mom about all the lies and the horrible smell in the car. Casey simply sits there refusing to talk.

HUIZENGA: Mrs. Anthony confronted Casey about a lot of those lies in the car and she pretty much sat there.

DET. RIVERA: You were in the car?

HUIZENGA: She didn`t say a word. Yes. Well, because they took me back to where I live.

CPL. EDWARDS: Did grandmother bark at Casey about the smell in the trunk of the car.

HUIZENGA: Yes.

CPL. EDWARDS: She did.

HUIZENGA: I don`t remember.

CPL. EDWARDS: What did she.

HUIZENGA: Just saying that the car smells like (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And you know, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) were terrified.

CPL. EDWARDS: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) or death? I mean did she go down the death road with her like.

HUIZENGA: I don`t, I don`t remember. It was very, very uncomfortable for me to be in the middle of that.

CPL. EDWARDS: Oh, I could only imagine.

GRACE: Finally, Cindy Anthony threatens to call police and that is when, according to Cindy, Casey confesses Caylee has been missing a month.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You called the police that night.

C. ANTHONY: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For a reason.

C. ANTHONY: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What reason?

C. ANTHONY: Because after speaking with Casey, she -- I did not get to see Caylee. Right? I was not satisfied with her answers.

GRACE: Casey Anthony quickly blames the so-called nanny saying she kidnapped the tot. Grandmother Cindy makes two frantic 911 calls to police.

OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

C. ANTHONY: I`m calling a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

OPERATOR: OK, what is.

C. ANTHONY: Get someone here now.

OPERATOR: OK. What is the address that you`re calling from?

C. ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her. I need to find her.

OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

C. ANTHONY: That the sitter took her a month ago that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter.

She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

OPERATOR: OK, what is the 3-year-old`s name?

C. ANTHONY: Caylee. C-A-Y-L-E-E Anthony.

OPERATOR: Caylee Anthony?

C. ANTHONY: Yes.

OPERATOR: How long has she been missing for?

C. ANTHONY: I have not seen her since the 7th of June.

OPERATOR: What is her date of birth?

C. ANTHONY: 8-9-2000, oh gosh, she`s 3, 2005. Caylee`s missing. Caylee`s missing. Casey says Zanny took her a month ago. She`s been missing for a month.

GRACE: That same night, 11 p.m., grandmother Cindy calls Amy Huizenga in tears to give her the heartbreaking news.

HUIZENGA: They dropped me off and then I did not hear from either of them until 11:00 when Cindy Anthony called me and told me that -- she had told me when she dropped me off, I`ll let you know what happens and, you know, if Caylee is OK and all that stuff, and called me crying at about 11:00 that night saying that, you know, Casey was gone -- or Caylee was gone and that Casey said that the nanny had ran off with her, like, a month ago.

And you know, that`s the first I heard of that story, but she called from me from her cell phone at 11:00 on the 15th.

GRACE: Meantime, Casey Anthony reaches out to numerous friends to report Caylee`s been missing over a month.

Next, more on the critical first 24 hours of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Cindy Anthony`s 911 calls are the beginning of a bizarre case. After the frantic calls, multiple police interrogations, written statements by family and friends, investigators head out to the Anthony home.

Detectives meet with mom Casey in private, confronting her about her version of events, even offering her a chance to change her story and tell the truth, but tough as nails, Casey Anthony refuses, reiterating the same story to cops. Her little girl was kidnapped by a babysitter Zenaida Gonzalez.

MELICH: I asked you this at the onset and before we move on tape and I`ll ask you again just to make sure we`re clear.

Is there anything about this story that you`re telling me that is untrue or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No, sir.

MELICH: Did you cause injury to your child Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

MELICH: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

MELICH: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

The horrible thing that happened is this is the honest to God`s truth, of every thing that I`ve said I do not know where she is. The last person that I saw her with is Zenaida. She`s the last person that I`ve seen my daughter with.

MELICH: And you know that that`s not true. That can`t be the truth because if that were the truth everything you would have told us would have been on the money. The addresses you would have taken us would have been on the money. Everything else would have matched.

If you had told us the truth, we wouldn`t be here at Universal Studios at a place that you`ve been fired since 2006 with you trying to explain to us, you know, that you got an office and all that stuff.

GRACE: According to Casey Anthony, between 9:00 p.m. and 1:00 a.m. June 9th she drops Caylee off with nanny Zenaida on the stairwell at Sawgrass Apartments, then heads to Universal Studios for work.

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: I want to go through this and I want you to stop me at the part that isn`t the truth, OK? You take your daughter and you drop her off on June the 9th, OK, at somebody -- at the babysitter`s house. OK? Now this is the babysitter that lives at this apartment, OK? That`s been vacant.

CASEY ANTHONY: I dropped her off at that apartment.

ALLEN: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: At the stairs.

ALLEN: Oh you just walked her -- you dropped her off and.

CASEY ANTHONY: I walked her to the stairs. That`s where I`ve dropped her off a bunch of other times besides just that day.

ALLEN: OK. And when you dropped her off, who took her at that point?

CASEY ANTHONY: Zani did. She took her at that point.

ALLEN: So you left her in Zani`s care on June 9th. OK? So far that`s right? OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

GRACE: When we come back, mom Casey Anthony refuses to cooperate in the search for her little girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELICH: Go back to your statement, you dropped off your -- you dropped off Caylee on June 9th and -- walk me through -- you dropped her off to go to work?

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

MELICH: OK. Get off of work and go from there.

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal driving back to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service, says that the -- the phone is no longer in service, excuse me.

So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house so I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone, a couple stores -- just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.

GRACE: Tot mom says she goes several places Zenaida frequents, a local park, stores, she even parties at nightclubs to find Zenaida and Caylee.

Instead of calling police, though, she says she starts her own investigation. We later learned that investigation includes multiple trips to nightclub Fusion, but photos show it doesn`t appear the tot mom is looking for Caylee.

Stunning and disturbing photos emerge of mom Casey partying, hanging out with friends, dancing the night away, even reportedly the life of the party at the club`s hot body contest. All just days, days after she says little Caylee`s kidnapped.

The name Zenaida Gonzalez quickly becomes the focus of the police investigation after tot mom says the babysitter`s a kidnapper. Police ask Casey to take them to known Zenaida locations, but this quickly degenerates into a big waste of time.

ALLEN: That makes sense to you? It makes sense to you that I`m trying to help the police find my daughter by giving them a bunch of bad addresses? That makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s what I said, yes.

ALLEN: No, no, I`m asking you. That makes sense to you? My attempt.

CASEY ANTHONY: That part of it, no. Not at all.

ALLEN: My attempt to help him find my child, OK? What I`ve done to try to help him find my child is I`ve given him a whole bunch of addresses to go to that are bad addressed. That`s what I did to help him find my child.

That makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: I took him to the last place that I`ve seen my daughter. Besides that I took them to other places that I`ve seen.

ALLEN: OK, when you -- when you brought us here -- when you brought us here to go look in your office, that was supposed to help us how? Because everything we`re doing here is about finding your daughter, OK?

So I want you, OK, to explain to me how coming here to go to an office that you don`t have, I want you to tell me how that`s helping us find your daughter.

GRACE: Casey Anthony agreed to show cops three of Zenaida`s last known locations in hopes of making an I.D. Their first stop, 301 North Hillside Drive where the tot mom points out a second floor window on the building`s northwest corner, claiming Zenaida lived in that apartment in 2006.

But the building turns out to be a seniors` only living facility. No Zenaida.

Then they had to 2863 Conway Road, the Sawgrass Apartments, the location Anthony claims to have last seen Caylee. Again, no Zenaida.

Their final stop, a town home community Crossings at Conway. Anthony tells cops Zenaida`s mom owns a condo here and that she dropped Caylee there many times in 2006 and early 2007, but then, once again, mom Casey runs into big trouble. She can`t point cops to the specific town home claiming she can`t remember the address.

Police approached three different town homes, but all three tenants say they don`t know Zenaida or Zenaida`s mom Gloria. Again, no Zenaida.

MELICH: So you`re saying that your ex-boyfriend`s house the 9th of this month when you`re staying at your other boyfriend`s house, Tony, the rest of the month?

CASEY ANTHONY: He`d been out of town so I was staying over at another friend`s place while he was gone. I wasn`t staying in his apartment. I was staying with Amy and Ricardo and J.P. J.P. and Ricardo own the house.

MELICH: So why didn`t, why didn`t you tell us you were staying there? We drove right by the house this morning, didn`t we, when we went today? OK? And you were pointing us to an old folk`s home, which is another lie. Right? Because Zanny never lived there. Am I correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

MELICH: OK. Why were you pointing at this old folks` home and saying Zanny lived there at one point when she didn`t?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because she had gone there before. I`ve seen her there.

MELICH: She went to the old folk`s home.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: But you never dropped your kid off to her at an old folk`s home. You never went into the old folk`s home and went into an apartment with her.

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

GRACE: Getting nowhere fast, police dropped back at her parents` home. George Anthony comes out and admits to cops he believes his own daughter Casey is holding back information.

George and Cindy Anthony say they`re in fear. They`re in fear something has happened to Caylee.

Not giving up, police return to Sawgrass to question the apartment`s manager and the maintenance man. Neither knows of a Zenaida Gonzalez and when cops shows them a picture of Caylee, neither recognizes her.

Then bombshell. The manager and maintenance man reveal the apartment where Anthony claims Zenaida lives, number 210, it`s been vacant for months. Police even go inside to see with their own eyes. It`s empty.

Then a twist. The manager finds a Zenaida Gonzalez logged into a computer system. A Zenaida Gonzalez who did look at an apartment June 17th. The manager hands over Zenaida`s desk card to cops.

Detectives begin checking name after name after name in the database. Jeffrey Hopkins, the co-worker Anthony claims she told Caylee was missing. Juliette Lewis, another coworker Casey says she told Caylee was missing, and of course, the name Zenaida Gonzalez.

MELICH: Who else did you talk to about this besides Jeffrey? You said you tried to cal Zenaida`s mom. You talk to Jeffrey. Who else did you talk to?

CASEY ANTHONY: I talked to Juliette Lewis. She was one of my coworkers at Universal.

MELICH: She works -- you still work at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: What do you do at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: An event coordinator.

MELICH: OK. What is Juliette -- what position is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s also an event coordinator. We work in the same department.

MELICH: Do you have a number for Juliette?

CASEY ANTHONY: Offhand, I can`t think of one.

MELICH: Is she in your SIM card?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not. Some of the more recent numbers. Her number just changed because she just moved back up north, she -- within the last two months has finished moving up to New York. She`s subleasing her apartment.

MELICH: So Juliette doesn`t work at Universal anymore.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she does not.

GRACE: Not only did Casey Anthony say Zenaida was a babysitter, but also a seasonal employee at Universal.

MELICH: Where does Zenaida, does she have another job besides watching children?

CASEY ANTHONY: She has a seasonal I.D. for Universal, however, the only job that I that she`s had for the last few years, she`s been a nanny.

MELICH: So seasonal employee at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

MELICH: When was the last time she worked at Universal, do you know?

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no idea.

GRACE: But further investigation reveals Casey Anthony was fired from Universal April 2006. Jeff Hopkins left April 2002, and Juliette Lewis -- she never even worked there and neither did Zenaida Gonzalez.

MELICH: How about Jeff? Jeff worked here until about two months ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, he hasn`t worked here for quite a while.

MELICH: Ten months? How long?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s been at least 10 months.

MELICH: OK. He got fired since 2002. He hasn`t been an employee here since 2002. And what about the girl?

CASEY ANTHONY: Juliette?

MELICH: Yes. What about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She left two months ago. That`s exactly what she had told me.

MELICH: Juliette Lewis never worked at Universal Studios.

GRACE: Next, more on the first 24 hours in the desperate search for Florida girl, 2-year-old Caylee Anthony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Before heading over to Universal, detectives finally locate the Zenaida Gonzalez connected to Sawgrass Apartments. She`s never met Casey Anthony or little Caylee and has never even worked as a babysitter.

Armed with new information cops call Casey Anthony who continues to insist she still works as an events coordinator at Universal, even giving them a work number and the name of a supervisor, Tom Manly.

But when cops call the number it`s not valid. And there is no such person as Tom Manly at Universal. Cops discover there is a Tom Mattison, however, who says Anthony`s not an employee there and never was.

Cops go back to mom Casey and ask her office location, but she can`t give them a building number and now she says she can`t even find her work I.D.

July 16, 12:30 p.m., detectives go to the Anthony home and tot mom agrees to go with investigators to Universal. At the entrance they meet up with three employees.

Anthony tells a security officer she works there, but she`s lost her I.D. When he asks for a supervisor`s name, Casey repeats Tom Manly. Then the security officer confirms what cops already know. There`s no Tom Manly at Universal.

For once, Casey Anthony falls silent.

The cops agree to take her back to her so-called office. Casey Anthony leads the way down a hallway as if she knows exactly where she`s going, but moments later she stops in her tracks, turns around. She`s busted.

Tot mom admits it`s all a big lie, and she doesn`t work there. Police take Casey Anthony into a conference room to confront her about her lies, the whole thing, caught on tape.

ALLEN: Our purpose in coming here was to do what? Go where?

CASEY ANTHONY: I guess there wasn`t a purpose. There wasn`t a purpose whatsoever to come up here.

ALLEN: So we`re wasting time, valuable time, we ought to be spending looking for your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m trying to think of places.

ALLEN: No, I.

CASEY ANTHONY: . where I know she`s been.

ALLEN: You`re not answering my question. Do you want us to help.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

ALLEN: . find your daughter?

CASEY ANTHONY: I do want you to help.

ALLEN: Well, then you need to help me -- a good starting point would be to answer the questions, OK? If I say you were here because and then you just ignore that, like as if I never asked it, and go off in some other direction, does that answer the question?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

ALLEN: OK. All right. Let`s go through this again. We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied. Because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for.

ALLEN: No, stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

GRACE: Tot mom confesses lying about her job at Universal. One of the locations she claims Zenaida Gonzalez lives and admits she should have called police the day Caylee went missing, but she still insists last seeing Caylee June 9 Sawgrass Apartments.

During the entire interrogation Anthony doesn`t shed a single tear. She never shows emotion over her missing girl, even laughing at times.

MELICH: Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking at me in the eyes, you`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie. Every single thing. And you can`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, it isn`t.

MELICH: Yes. And you can`t keep sitting here telling us the same thing and getting constantly over and over and over again we`re disproving everything that you`re telling us. You`re telling us that you`ve lied us to, you`re telling us you`re giving us misinformation, everything you`re telling us. OK? This needs to end.

CASEY ANTHONY: The truthful thing is I have not seen my daughter. The last time that I saw her was on the 9th of June.

MELICH: And what happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

MELICH: Sure you do. You need to listen.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

MELICH: Something happened to Caylee. We`re not going to discuss where the last time you saw her. I`m guessing something bad happened to her some time ago and you haven`t seen her. So that part is true if you`re saying you haven`t seen her because she`s somewhere else right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s with someone else.

GRACE: Leaving no stone unturned, cops pull up every single Zenaida Gonzalez in the system. Casey Anthony can`t identify a single one and she doesn`t recognize the Gonzalez from Sawgrass Apartments.

NIEVES: We know that there are Zenaida Gonzalez`s out there. The Zenaida Gonzalez that have talked to us by Casey is not existent to this point. What we need to do is receive information from Casey and nothing but the truth. We need that information.

GRACE: Again at headquarters, detectives give Anthony a last chance to come clean, to tell the truth, but the tot mom digs in and sticks to her story.

July 16th, 4:33 p.m. police place tot mom Casey Anthony under arrest for child neglect and, of course, lying to investigators. Cops continue passing along any new information about the investigation to mom Casey behind bars.

Each time Casey Anthony insists she does not know where Caylee, still laughing at times. The same day grandfather George turns over Anthony`s laptop computer to police. Forensic investigators discover photos on of Caylee with her great-grandfather, photos taken June 15, proving Caylee`s alive after June 9.

That`s the day tot mom claims to have last seen Caylee. George also tells police he sees Casey Anthony and granddaughter Caylee leaving the home the morning of June 16.

G. ANTHONY: The 16th is when I actually saw Casey and Caylee together. They were both leaving with backpacks and my daughter said she was going to work and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the babysitter.

And I know it was 10 minute to 1:00 because I was watching this food channel thing that I watch between noon and 1:00. So I`m positive. That I know for a dog gone fact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she actually told you on the 16th, I plan on staying at Zanny`s a late event.

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Most definitely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom starts calling -- apparently mom says that she had some form of a big deal going on at work, a convention. So they were staying at the Hard Rock Hotel.

G. ANTHONY: That`s what she told us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

G. ANTHONY: I mean, that`s what my wife reiterated to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t have a conversation -- just your wife.

G. ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then there was -- they had to move that to Busch Gardens, Tampa area?

G. ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s where Zanny got in her car accident?

G. ANTHONY: Supposedly Zanny got in this car accident. Casey was following at some distance behind her and Zanny got involved in this accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hospitalized at Tampa General.

G. ANTHONY: That`s what we`re told.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And treated for a concussion.

G. ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then the next day the ER nurse discovered a large laceration behind the ear and had to treat that.

G. ANTHONY: And kept her, I guess, an extra day or something, yes. If I remember correctly, yes.

GRACE: Throughout one all of the lies, one thing is consistent, Casey Anthony`s version of events doesn`t add up. The more she tells police, the more holes appear in her story.

In her written statement Anthony claims July 15, 12 p.m. she gets a call from her missing girl. The first time she`s heard Caylee`s voice in four weeks. This alleged call comes in on the same date grandmother Cindy reports Caylee missing.

DEP. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Do you remember the phone call you were telling us about? Is that true?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

WELLS: Did you actually talk? What day was it that you talked to her?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yesterday.

WELLS: You remember what time of day?

CASEY ANTHONY: Around noon. It was from a private number.

WELLS: OK. What did she tell you? What did your daughter say to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She said hi, mommy.

WELLS: And that`s it?

CASEY ANTHONY: And she started telling me a story talking to me about her shoes and books.

WELLS: It`s important that you tell me, I mean, maybe there was something in what she said that can help us figure out where she is. What did she say?

CASEY ANTHONY: I tried to ask her where she was and she just kept talking about the book that she`s been reading. We have videos of her reading the story and she`s telling me the story. And she`s telling me the story.

ALLEN: So she seemed happy and.

CASEY ANTHONY: Fine.

ALLEN: Seemed fine, seemed happy.

CASEY ANTHONY: She seemed perfectly fine. There was nothing in the background.

ALLEN: Telling you about a book. No sign of any type of stress at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not at all.

ALLEN: Great. That`s wonderful. Let me ask you a question. Your daughter hasn`t seen you in over a month, and she`s not.

CASEY ANTHONY: She was excited. She was excited to talk to me. But at the same time it`s crazy that she didn`t get upset when she talked me, which.

ALLEN: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: . had it been my mom, I know it would have been totally different.

ALLEN: Is that another thing, is that another thing that makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She never gets upset when she talks to me, whether I haven`t seen her for an entire day or if I had to work late at night. I didn`t see her almost an entire day until the next morning.

GRACE: But cell phone records prove otherwise, revealing not a single call that could have come from little Caylee.

Remember Anthony says she dropped Caylee off with Zenaida Gonzalez on the stairwell there at Sawgrass Apartments June 9th? Police go so far as to check apartment surveillance video. No Casey Anthony. No little Caylee. No Zenaida Gonzalez.

When we come back, tot mom Casey Anthony`s web of lies.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELICH: We even pulled surveillance video from an apartment complex and they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you there at all that day.

You think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.

MELICH: . do all this stuff? OK. We`re not seeing you there. So now if -- you`re not there and you`re not being seen there and somebody`s already saying that you`re not there, everything else you`ve told us is a lie.

GRACE: Then, another twist. Anthony also says Caylee was kidnapped by the babysitter Zenaida At Jay Blanchard Park. This is a whole new story. Mom Casey`s new story is that Zenaida, Zenaida`s older sister Samantha, and Samantha`s three children, also at Jay Blanchard Park.

After they snatch little Caylee, Casey claims the group leaves a so-called script for Anthony to tell cops over a period of 30 days. Zenaida, her sister, and the three young children allegedly take off in a silver Ford with Caylee.

Anthony never mentioned this Jay Blanchard Park story in her written statement or during the police interrogation caught on tape. Still insisting little Caylee kidnapped from Sawgrass Apartment.

Coincidentally Jay Blanchard Park is the same location Casey Anthony claims she lost her Black Jack cell phone. But cell phone ping records reportedly place the young mom near the same park June 17th, just one day after Caylee`s last seen alive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: It is universally accepted that the first 48 hours are critical when a child goes missing, every minute, every second counts, so why would a mom who claims her daughter`s kidnapped not call police? Or at least alert friends and family?

It doesn`t make sense. And the more Casey refuses to cooperate, the more suspicions grow.

Tonight, still the question. Where is Caylee?

Thank you for being with us, inviting us into your homes for this special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, the first 24 hours of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/27/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Investigation, the First 30 Days

Aired November 28, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony is a 22-year-old mother. That`s a fact. This is her beautiful 2-year-old, Caylee. That`s also true. But the rest of the story is blurry at best, false at worst.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony claims she dropped her daughter off at this apartment on June 9, and when she came back, the baby-sitter was gone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything she has told them so far has led nowhere.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee`s mother, Casey, abandoned her white 1998 Pontiac in the parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -tell what she knows about Caylee`s whereabouts and the little girl`s well-being.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff`s deputies testified Casey Anthony`s car did smell of decomposition, and one of their dogs smelled human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her own mother, locked up in jail, continues to keep her secrets locked up, as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Police desperately search for a beautiful 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Tonight: What happened? How exactly did tot mom Casey Anthony stump veteran police? Every investigation starts at the beginning. Under 24- hour protection and ankle-monitoring devices, Casey Anthony does the exact reverse from what bounty hunter Leonard Padilla predicts. She claims she couldn`t help the search for her daughter when she was behind bars. Why? Because her jail conversations were being recorded and released, thus pushing the kidnapper further away from Orlando.

Well, Casey Anthony fools her family again, offering nothing other than info detectives say doesn`t pan out. Padilla regrets posting the bond. Casey Anthony ends up back behind bars on charges of stealing from a friend. But the big question: Where is 2-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE (voice-over): It immediately took over national headlines, 22- year-old mom Casey Anthony decides not to report her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, had vanished for an entire month, not to family, friends, or especially police. Tot mom Casey Anthony carries on a normal life, dining out, shopping spree, even getting a brand-new tattoo "La Bella Vita," the beautiful life. Her live-in boyfriend and the roommates didn`t have a clue little Caylee had disappeared -- no emotion, no concern, not a single tear, nothing.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wanted you to go to Fusian?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FIANCE: Correct. Yes, sir. I declined. And I asked her -- well, first I asked her, Well, where`s Caylee? You know, You`re going to Fusian at this point. I knew that she`d had a falling out with her mother. How -- who`s watching Caylee? And that`s when she tells me Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: July 15, grandmother Cindy Anthony makes a frantic 911 call, Cindy Anthony desperate to find little Caylee, now missing for four long weeks.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing...

(CROSSTALK)

911 OPERATOR: OK. What is the address that you`re calling from?

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her. I need to find her.

911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

CINDY ANTHONY: The baby-sitter took her a month ago, that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in it.

911 OPERATOR: OK, what is the 3-year-old`s name?

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E, Anthony.

911 OPERATOR: Caylee Anthony?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: How long has she been missing for?

CINDY ANTHONY: I have not seen her since the 7th of June.

911 OPERATOR: What is her date of birth?

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s 8-9-2000 -- oh, gosh, she`s 3 -- she`s -- 2005. Caylee`s missing! Caylee`s missing! Casey says Zanny took her a month ago! She`s been missing for a month.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Daughter Casey Anthony claims the tot`s kidnapped by the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez, a nanny no one has ever met.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Is your daughter there?

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m on the phone with them!

911 OPERATOR: Is your daughter there?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Can I speak with her? Do you mind if I speak with her? Thank you.

CINDY ANTHONY: I called them two hours ago, and they haven`t gotten here. Casey finally admitted that Zanny took her a month ago (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Ma`am? Ma`am?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey (INAUDIBLE) they want to talk to you. Answer their questions.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Hello?

911 OPERATOR: Hello?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Hi. Can you tell me what`s going on with this?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m sorry?

911 OPERATOR: Can you tell me a little bit what`s going on?

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

911 OPERATOR: And you know who has her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a minute.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you guys call and report a vehicle stolen?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, my mom did.

911 OPERATOR: OK. So is it a vehicle stolen, too?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, this is my vehicle.

911 OPERATOR: What vehicle was stolen?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s a `98 Pontiac Sunfire.

911 OPERATOR: OK. I have deputies on the way to you right now for that. But now your 3-year-old daughter is missing, Caylee Anthony?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: White female?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, white female.

911 OPERATOR: Three years old, 8-9-2005 is the date of birth?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: Thirty-one days. It`s been 31 days.

911 OPERATOR: Who has her? Do you have a name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.

911 OPERATOR: Who is that, a baby-sitter?

911 OPERATOR: She`s been my nanny for about a year-and-a-half, almost two years.

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Can you give me the name of the nanny again? Like, spell it out for me?

CASEY ANTHONY: Zenaida, Z-E-N-A-I-D-A.

911 OPERATOR: Last name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Fernandez.

911 OPERATOR: Fernandez?

CASEY ANTHONY: Hyphen Gonzalez. I think the officers are here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Orange County sheriffs begin investigating a missing child, but no Amber Alert, no police report of a kidnapping ever issued. Why? Because tot mom`s story doesn`t add up. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s car reeks of a dead body, discovered abandoned at a local check-cashing shop.

CPL. YURI MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Initially, on the 17th, when we had the car towed, our forensics technician met us downstairs. I actually went into the car to smell what the smell smelled like. Briefly, just before I came into the job (INAUDIBLE) I was a homicide detective for two years with Orange County sheriff`s office. And in my experience, the smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

GRACE: And the so-called nanny who Casey Anthony accuses of kidnapping Caylee has never even heard of Caylee or Casey Anthony. The tot mom takes investigators on a scavenger hunt all over Orlando, but none of her so-called leads pan out. Her alleged job at Universal Studios, the nanny, her timeline, the cell phone records, none of it pans out. And she never explains why she refused to report Caylee missing for an entire month.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The horrible thing that happened is -- this is the honest-to-God`s truth of everything that I`ve said, I do not know where she is. The last person that I saw her with is Zenaida. She`s the last person that I`ve seen my daughter with.

MELICH: We know that`s not the truth. That can`t be the truth because if that were the truth, everything you would have told us would have been on the money. The addresses you would have taken us would have been on the money. Everything else would have matched. If you had told us the truth, we wouldn`t be here at Universal Studios at a place that you`ve been fired since 2006, with you trying to explain to us, you know, you got an office and all that stuff.

Basically, if you`re trying to fabricate a story to kind of make something look a little bit better, now is your time to tell me. Are you telling me that this is the story you want to stick with?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s the truth. It`s the story I`m going to stick with, yes.

MELICH: OK. In your own words -- let`s go back. Your daughter`s name is Caylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: Marie Anthony. She was born August 9?

CASEY ANTHONY: Two thousand five.

MELICH: OK. And according to your statement back on August 9 -- I`m sorry, back on June 9, 2008, you took Casey (SIC) to a baby-sitter`s house?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: And who is this baby-sitter?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: July 16, an arrest finally goes down, Casey Anthony officially charged with child neglect, and of course, lying to police. A whopping $500,000 bond is set. And defense attorney Jose Baez enters the scene.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I can tell you that, based on my conversations with my client, what we ended up discovering based on these conversations was that there`s actually a very reasonable explanation for this whole delay in reporting the incident, or the kidnapping.

Unfortunately, she is under criminal charges at this time. I cannot disclose any of the specific discussions that I`ve had with my client that would possibly lead to a defense. The prosecution nor the police are not telling me everything they know, and I certainly don`t think that launching a proper defense would be disclosing every single thing that we know.

GRACE: When we come back, Casey Anthony tells police one lie after the next. Why?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: July 17, a team of investigators show up at the Anthony home. They`ve got a search warrant in hand.

CAPT. ANGELO NIEVES, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: At this point, we can`t talk about anything that was taken out of the house. We did return to the residence this morning with George Anthony and remove an item, some items in some of the bags. We`re not at liberty to discuss anything that was taken out of the residence, nor anything that would hinder or in any way hurt our investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know they took some evidence from the house. Can you at least talk about the bags of evidence?

CINDY ANTHONY: Back away from the car, or we`ll walk back in and get the deputies to come back out, OK? We are late. We should have been out of here an hour ago. We`ve got to go to (INAUDIBLE) There`s no story, guys.

GRACE: They searched the back yard and pool with a fine-toothed comb, even removing little Caylee`s back yard playhouse.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GRUND: Caylee loved that playhouse. That was, like, her own little palace. She loved everything about it. She had her own little phone in there. She had a little kitchen set. I mean, she -- she absolutely and totally loved the playhouse. Every time I`d go outside and play with Caylee, any time I got the chance, right to the playhouse every time. She spent a lot of time out there with her grandparents and with Casey. And I believe that Casey -- if something would have happened to her, that would have been the first place that she would have put Caylee if she wanted to place Caylee`s body somewhere.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: On the scene, cadaver dogs, who hit in the tot mom`s back yard.

JASON FORGEY, DEPUTY SHERIFF, K9 UNIT: I deployed him on the whole back yard. The dog actually alerted in the -- I believe it`s the southeast corner, over near a play area. I continued to work the dog through there, took the dog out. I called another cadaver dog handler that I know that works for Osceola County sheriff`s office, and had her come in for a secondary search. With that dog, I told her that we had probed three areas and how long it had been since we had probed it and that we had kept people out of the back yard since then. And that was the generic thing that I gave her. I went with her and watched her dog also, who I`m very familiar with. And her dog actually alerted in the same spot that my dog, K9 Garris (ph), did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. To the odor of human decomposition.

FORGEY: Human decomposition, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Cadaver dogs also hit on the tot mom`s Pontiac Sunfire.

FORGEY: Garris put his head inside the vehicle, looked straight towards the back seat. I had the tech work ahead of me and ventilate the trunk. Still in a counterclockwise manner, we came around to the trunk. Garris jumped up into the trunk, front paws, stuck his head in, backed back up, did the eye contact and moved to the right rear passenger side rear fender/trunk/taillight area and gave me a fine (ph) train (ph) on alert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that mean?

FORGEY: He alerted to the odor of human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the trunk of that car?

FORGEY: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Then there`s the story told by tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone records.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DPTY. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: ... was it because you got to go to work and she watching, would you call during the day, call her up during the day and say...

CASEY ANTHONY: I would always call and check on Caylee or send a text message, or if I was on line, just to make sure that everything was OK. She would occasionally call me just to let...

WELLS: Can you get on line here at work? Can you send text messages from work?

CASEY ANTHONY: I usually just use my phone.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Over 500 calls and text messages, but not a single call from the so-called nanny, Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, and significantly, absolutely no record of the mystery phone call mom Casey claims she got from Caylee just two days earlier.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

WELLS: You remember the phone call you were telling us about?

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

WELLS: Is that true?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

WELLS: Did you actually talk with -- what day was it you talked to her?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yesterday.

WELLS: You remember what time of day?

CASEY ANTHONY: Around noon. It was from a private number.

WELLS: OK. And what`d she tell you ? What`d your daughter say to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She said, Hi, Mommy.

WELLS: And that`s it?

CASEY ANTHONY: And she started to tell me a story, talking to me about her shoes and books.

WELLS: It`s important that you tell me. I mean, maybe there`s something in what she said that can help us figure out where she is. What did she say?

CASEY ANTHONY: I tried to ask her where she was, but she just kept talking about the book that she`s been reading. We have videos of her reading the story, and she was telling me the story...

(CROSSTALK)

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: So she seemed happy and (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: Fine.

ALLEN: Seemed fine, seemed happy?

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: She seemed perfectly fine. There was nothing in the background...

ALLEN: Telling you about a book, telling you -- no sign of any type stress at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not at all.

ALLEN: Great. That`s wonderful. Now, let me ask you a question. Your daughter hasn`t seen you in over a month, and she`s not -- she`s...

CASEY ANTHONY: She was excited. She was excited to talk to me. But at the same time, it`s crazy that she didn`t get upset when she talked to me, which had it been my mom, I know it would have been...

ALLEN: Is that another thing...

CASEY ANTHONY: ... totally different.

ALLEN: Is that another thing that makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She never gets upset when she talks to me, whether I haven`t seen her for an entire day, or if I had to work late at night and I didn`t see him almost an entire day until the next morning.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: July 18, crime scene investigators show up at the Anthony home and leave with a shovel, a shovel mom Casey borrows from a neighbor at the time Caylee goes missing.

ALLEN: We did have a shovel. Once we put the information out to the public, we did have somebody call us and tell us that a shovel was borrowed on a day in close proximity to the being child missing. So we felt that this would be a good place to look.

GRACE: Behind bars, Casey Anthony lashes out at friends and family who ask for answers about little Caylee. Those heated exchanges caught on tape.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Waste my call sitting in, oh, the jail.

CINDY ANTHONY: Whose fault is...

CASEY ANTHONY: Sorry?

CINDY ANTHONY: Whose fault is you sitting in the jail? You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you had told them the truth and not lied about everything they wouldn`t...

CASEY ANTHONY: Do me a favor. Just tell me what Tony`s number is. I don`t want to talk to you right now. Forget it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t have his number.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, get it from Lee because I know Lee`s at the house. I saw Mallory`s car was out front. It was just on the news. They were just live outside the house.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know they were.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well?

CASEY ANTHONY: Can you get Tony`s number for me so I can call him?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Next, more on the first 24 hours of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: July 18, Casey Anthony takes on her mother Cindy, brother Lee and friend Christina.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom.

CINDY ANTHONY: Hey, sweetie.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I just saw your nice little cameo on TV.

CINDY ANTHONY: Which one?

CASEY ANTHONY: What do you mean, which one?

CINDY ANTHONY: Which one? I did four different ones, and I don`t know -- I haven`t seen them all. I`ve only seen one or two so far.

CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t know what my involvement is in stuff?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey...

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom?

CINDY ANTHONY: What?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, don`t waste your call to scream and holler at me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number?

LEE ANTHONY: I -- I can do that. I don`t know what real good it`s going to do you, at this point.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I`d like to talk to him anyway.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, and by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my -- my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.

LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know Mom will understand this better than anyone, that there`s that type of bond that you have with your kids...

LEE ANTHONY: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... and it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds because I have to stay composed to talk to detectives, to make other phone calls, to do other things. I can`t sit here and be crying every two seconds like I want to. I can`t.

I know you`re on my side. I`m not trying to...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody`s saying anything bad about you. Your family is with you 100 percent.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, they`re not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes...

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s (DELETED) because I just watched the (DELETED) news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody in my own family is on my side.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they are. Nobody has said...

CASEY ANTHONY: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now is getting Caylee back. And you know what? That`s all I care about right now.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: When we come back, police say mom Casey Anthony refuses to cooperate in the search for her little girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: July 21, investigators show George and Cindy Anthony photos of little Caylee visiting her great grandfather. Photos from mom Casey`s laptop. They were taken June 15th, Father`s Day weekend.

The pictures confirm Caylee was seen after June 9th. The date the tot mom tells cops Caylee was kidnapped.

DEP. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: You last saw her June the 9th?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Ninth. Monday.

WELLS: Do you remember what you all did on June the 8th?

C. ANTHONY: It`s a Sunday.

WELLS: I can`t think of what I did. But anything significant?

C. ANTHONY: I think I might have been at Tony`s. I think my mom took Caylee up to see her parents in Mount Dora. She either took us there Saturday or that Sunday.

WELLS: What`s Tony`s?

C. ANTHONY: It`s my boyfriend`s apartment.

WELLS: Oh OK. So it was like a day visit?

C. ANTHONY: For my parents or for my mom, yes. When my mom goes up there even just by herself or with my dad or I go up there with her.

WELLS: Your baby went up there with your mom to see her parents?

C. ANTHONY: See her great grandparents.

WELLS: Yes.

GRACE: You are seeing the last known images of little Caylee. The same day the Anthonys see these stunning photos, the grandparents turn over toothbrushes, a hair brush, a comb, Caylee`s oral thermometer, all for DNA.

CARLOS PADILLA, DEPUTY SHERIFF, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: There was some items that they felt that was of interest to the case. However, we`re going to be able to discuss as to exactly what was removed.

But, as you noticed, Mr. Anthony went with the detectives over there, and again, indicative of the cooperation that the family is having with us.

GRACE: That evening at the Orange County Jail, cops executed a search warrant and collected DNA sample including hair from Casey Anthony.

July 22, bombshell evidence emerges. A bond hearing for Casey Anthony goes down.

JUDGE STAN STRICKLAND, ORANGE COUNTY CRIMINAL COURT: As to these charges, I would say it is substantial, in fact, basically, includes a confession from her that she`s lying about the investigation. Not a bit useful information (INAUDIBLE) Miss Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter. I would point out that the truth and Miss. Anthony are strangers.

GRACE: On the stand, grandparents George and Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you need a moment?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Yes. The first time I`ve seen Casey in a week. Go ahead. I`ll be all right. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you state your name and relationship to Casey Anthony?

CINDY ANTHONY: Cynthia M. Marie Anthony. I`m her mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

So what about after she`s been incarcerated? Have you had an opportunity to speak to her?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: No, sir. I have not. This is the first time I`ve seen my daughter since then.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a close family?

G. ANTHONY: I hope we are. I believe we are.

GRACE: Brother, Lee.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: We connect on a level above anybody else. We love each other unconditionally. And we can tell each other things that we may not feel comfortable telling anyone else even our family members.

GRACE: And for the state, the lead detective.

CORPORAL YURI MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: There was a -- there was a very bad smell inside the car. After speaking to Casey extensively, after listening to all the stories, after trying to follow up all these leads, obviously, we started to having to look elsewhere and see if we could obtain information elsewhere.

And I remember that somebody had mentioned that there was a very bad odor in the car. So we asked Mr. And Mrs. Anthony if we can go ahead and seize the car, look for evidence inside of it. Mr. Anthony signed an affidavit allowing us to do so.

GRACE: July 22, police question the tot mom`s live-in, Tony Lazzaro.

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I got a call that to come pick her up that she ran out of gas. I asked her where she was and she said that she ran out of gas at that corner and that somebody helped her push her car into the Amscot. So then I went and picked her up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No child that night before?

LAZZARO: No child with her at all. She had some groceries and some clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were the groceries from?

LAZZARO: They weren`t actually groceries from the store. It was from her house. She had some freezer pops and like some Tyson chicken or something to make for dinner that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From grandma`s house?

LAZZARO: Yes, because it wasn`t in any bags. It just looked like normal plastic bags.

GRACE: Detectives learned about mom Casey`s lifestyle, her movements, her very thinking in the days and weeks leading up to and immediately following Caylee`s disappearance.

LAZZARO: She actually used to say that she didn`t -- that she was getting ready to not live at her house anymore with her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was she going to go?

LAZZARO: No particular place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: She was just looking to move out because she was 22 and wanting to get her own place.

GRACE: July 26th and 29th, brother Lee sends investigators e-mails to prove babysitter Zenaida Gonzalez does exist, and to prove Casey Anthony did hold down jobs. But senior execs at Kodak and Color Vision her mom Casey claims to work, confirm her stories don`t pan out.

She hasn`t worked at Kodak since 2005. Casey Anthony even goes as far as allegedly faking a Universal Studio e-mail address.

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: When the police do get involved, OK, when your parents involved the police, in an attempt to locate your child because they`re worried.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: The first thing you do, OK, is you lied to the detective who`s job it is to try to find your daughter and get her back into safe hands, OK. You give him all kinds of bad addresses to look at, right? OK? So far I`m on track, correct?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: OK. Then you bring us out to Universal where you say you work in an office, to try to help find stuff that will help us find your daughter. I`m on track so far, OK?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: And we get here, we walk all the way down the hall to where you tell us you don`t really work here. You don`t have an office here, OK?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: So far everything I`ve said is true, correct?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

GRACE: According to police, the e-mail was bogus. Universal confirms there is no such person and says the e-mail address is a fake.

MELICH: I can tell you now that everything you told me is a lie. Everything that you`ve told me this morning from -- from Zanny, from the addresses, from Universal, from all these people that you`ve talked to including people that you never told me their names, and I found them and talked to them.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

MELICH: You know, everything that you`ve told me this morning is a lie. Every single thing. That there`s one of two options right now. You need to tell me the truth and we can work with that.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

MELICH: Or if we continue down this path and continue lying, I can tell you that when this snowball gets to the bottom of the hill, the only person who`s going to get hurt is you.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: That`s not true. A lot of people around you get hurt.

MELICH: Your parents.

C. ANTHONY: A lot of people are hurting right now and.

ALLEN: And you know what? One person could put a stop to that.

C. ANTHONY: I`ve been trying.

GRACE: July 30, the Appeals Court, Daytona Beach denies the defense demand to lower tot mom`s $500,000 bond. Mom Casey stays put behind bars in a private cell.

July 31, detectives sit down with grandmother, Cindy, to go over a timeline surrounding Caylee`s disappearance.

CINDY ANTHONY: I talk to her every day. I talk to her every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every day you talk to the baby or just.

CINDY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No?

CINDY ANTHONY: I -- no. I didn`t -- I stopped talking to Caylee the six - - the last day I talked to Caylee was the 15th. I did not have a conversation with Caylee after that.

Now George had conversation with her in the morning because she was there in the morning, had breakfast, did the normal stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No time here though?

CINDY ANTHONY: Nope. None at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: And that was -- every time her and I would talk, Caylee wasn`t with her or something. You know there was something going on. That`s why I think she`s fabricated this whole story, so that she would justify to me why I couldn`t talk to Caylee, because she knew that if it wasn`t a reasonable thing, then I would say, "Where the hell are you and I`m coming to pick Caylee up because something`s wrong."

I lost my granddaughter, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee, we`re looking for -- Casey.

CINDY ANTHONY: I lost my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy, listen to me. Please, let me.

CINDY ANTHONY: You guys were so good the first four days. You guys were so good at coming to the house and everything, and then it stopped. No one came from missing persons. No one came from anything. We`re in the dark.

So we`re a grieving family, frustrated as heck because I didn`t even care where was at. I still don`t care where Casey`s at. All I want is Caylee back. Do you understand that?

GRACE: Same day, police commence a second interview with Casey`s former fiance, Jesse Grund, the man she accuses as little Caylee`s biological dad, a claim, like everything else, that turns out to be a lie.

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone, that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now? That she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not.

We can all tell that from the last couple of years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.

GRACE: The month of August kicks off with real life CSI, swarming the Anthony home, seizing multiple bags of evidence, including two gas cans tot mom allegedly stole from her own family.

G. ANTHONY: I called my wife and I said, hey, guess what happened to day? She said what? I said someone broke into our shed and stole the gas, the gas cans and she said, you`re kidding me. I said I`m not joking.

The reason why I`m bringing that very specifically is because I have thought or I have caught my daughter, I know she`s been taking gas and using it, because I can see that on her car, on the side of her car because I could see spill marks. When you spill gas on the car, it leaves a mark.

Many times I`ve confronted her about it, I said listen, if you`re using it, I don`t care. Just put it back. I don`t care.

While she`s in her room, she shouts out to me, oh by the way, I talked to mom and I understand something happened here at the house. I said in reference to? She says, oh the gas cans. I said oh yes, isn`t that something? Oh yes, Dad, that`s terrible.

So me being this investigator thing come though. I know my daughter`s not leveling with me and I know what she`s done in the past.

My gas cans were stolen on the 24th of June. I mean there`s a report about that. They just want to come in and there`s lining everything up. They`re doing a thorough investigation, but I said whatever you guys want to take from my house, you want to take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care. You do what you need to do to bring my granddaughter back.

GRACE: When we come back, mom Casey takes cops on a wild goose chase delaying the search for her little girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The grandfather, George, tells police about an angry confrontation with mom, Casey, over the gas can, with mom, Casey, fighting to keep her own father far away from the trunk of her car.

G. ANTHONY: I said, hey, Case, you know in the back of the trunk of the car we got these metal wedges to put underneath the -- your wheel of the car if you jack your car up so it doesn`t move? I said hey I want to get that one out of your car because I`ve got one already in the garage.

I want to get that other one because I want to go ahead and rotate your mom`s tires over this weekend. In case you`re not home, I like to be able to do it. Oh Dad, I`ll get it out for you. Case, I`ve got an extra set of keys, I`ll go into the trunk and get it. So her and I got into a little verbal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go.

G. ANTHONY: She didn`t want me to go into the trunk of her car, so as I`m getting ready to go out through our inter-garage door in front of the big garage door, she just blows right past me and she said, Dad, I`ll get your thing. She said something very crude to me that I don`t appreciate.

So as I`m walking out the garage with her I`m walking at a pretty decent pace and she`s almost running out to her car. She said, Dad, I`ll get it. I know where it`s at. I said, Casey, I`m capable of reaching inside your trunk of your car and unbolting the thing because when I bolt stuff down I crank it down.

And she said, Dad, I`ll get it. As I`m walking, I just get pass the passenger rear taillight through her car, she throws open the trunk, she says here`s F-ing cans.

GRACE: August 4, George and Cindy sit down for more police interviews, and it`s all caught on video and audiotape.

CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny at this point was a real person in the beginning But I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee. In my mind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Transferred the responsibility?

CINDY ANTHONY: The name -- yes, so I think she refers to -- I believe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So do you think we`re spinning our wheels looking for a Zanny?

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not sure. But my -- I have to two theories and I`ll share that with you. I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse at this point. It just seemed like -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We.

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.

G. ANTHONY: Ninety percent of the time or more, it was my wife watching -- our granddaughter. Very few times that I actually watched her by myself because of scheduling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was almost more of a mother figure than Casey.

G. ANTHONY: Yes. I think it happened from the day she was born as a matter of fact. I don`t know if my wife shared that with you guys or not, but the day that she was born, after they got done cleaning my granddaughter up and stuff like that, who they hand her to was my wife and my daughter has always.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harbored ill feelings?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, there`s been some toughness right there, yes. She`s thrown it at my wife`s face a few times, yes. I have to be honest. She has. She said seems like Caylee goes to you guys more than she does to me.

Well, it`s not that we`re trying to take her away from her, it`s just that we`re there. We`re constantly there with that little girl, you know? She sees us every day. Did she ever call my wife mommy? No. Did she ever call me daddy? No. It`s ways been Joe-Joe, grandpa, papa or something like that or.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just play the strong parental figure.

G. ANTHONY: Absolutely. I mean it`s -- I want the best for that little girl.

GRACE: George Anthony`s timeline of events reveals the last time anyone interviewed by police saw little Caylee alive.

G. ANTHONY: The 16th is when I actually saw Casey and Caylee together. They were both leaving with backpacks and my daughter said she was going to work and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the babysitter.

And I know it was 10 minute to 1:00 because I was watching this food channel thing that I watch between noon and 1:00. So I`m positive. That I know for a dog gone fact.

GRACE: Cindy Anthony admits she takes clothes, pants, boots from tot mom`s car, and washes them, all before that frantic 911 call. She leads investigators back to the Anthony home, again. This time, CSI seizing pants, skirts, shirts, jeans, all belonging to mom Casey Anthony.

CAPTAIN ANGELO NIEVES, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: The FBI is assisting us with the examination. And we`re using their lab in order to submit our evidence and our information.

They will return that information back to us when they`re ready, and obviously when they are ready and obviously when they`re -- when they`re done with the examination of those items.

We also have their federal law enforcement, FDLE, lab as well assisting in that effort and we will continue to monitor that information and progress as we received those results.

GRACE: After several jail house phone calls and videotapes released, Casey Anthony refuses all visits with family.

CINDY ANTHONY: It was very difficult for me not to go see her today. But I think it`s in Caylee`s best interests. I think it`s for her safety, because those recordings are -- you know, the videos are public, can be public record.

So it was very hard decision for me, but it`s all about Caylee. And it`s all about her safety. So as much as I wanted to go see Casey today, and visit with her, you know, I couldn`t.

GRACE: August 8, mom, Casey, rejects a visit from her own brother, Lee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think your sister is being truthful?

L. ANTHONY: To the best of her ability right now, I do. Frankly, I wouldn`t still be here if I didn`t think she was trying to cooperate with me.

GRACE: August 9, not only does Casey Anthony refuse to cooperate in a search for Caylee from behind bars, it`s Caylee`s third birthday.

NIEVES: Well, again, this is something that she needs to consider. We`re talking -- we will continue to do everything we can. It is frustrating. Again, Casey is the key to this investigation. She knows what she did. She knows what time was the last time she saw the child, who she may have left the child with.

Our concern is to find Caylee, who`s going to be 3 years old on Saturday. That`s our concern. What we need to do is receive information from Casey and nothing but the truth. We need that information.

Caylee`s birthday is on Saturday, on the Saturday, the 9th. She deserves nothing less than to be home with her family.

GRACE: Her birthday cake, party balloons, and her favorite meal chili, all waiting. But August 9 comes and goes, little Caylee still missing.

G. ANTHONY: We have a small cake inside. We have the number 3 on it and we`re going to light it. This is a tough day for us. If you guys have children, or if you`re grandparents, you can understand. These days like today don`t come around very often. When they do, they mean more to you than anything.

CINDY ANTHONY: And I still know my granddaughter`s out there. And I know she`s going to come home to us. So, you know, she didn`t make it home by her birthday, but it`s just a day.

GRACE: Next, more on the desperate search for little Caylee.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: On the heels of her daughter`s birthday, Casey Anthony canceled the jail house visit with parents. The second time in three days she refuses to see family.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`d like to see her. But, you know, what am I going to say? If she wants to, you know, not see us, that`s her prerogative.

GRACE: The search intensifies for little Caylee while grandfather George drives streets and highways, with a Caylee billboard, hoping to generate tips in the little girl`s disappearance.

The Anthonys bring in their own PI, announcing they have Caylee`s alleged kidnappers under surveillance. Mom Casey claiming all the while she can`t talk about what really happened for fear of retaliation.

MELICH: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

C. ANTHONY: I think part of me was naive enough to think that I can handle this myself, which obviously I couldn`t. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved, or my parents which I know would have done the same thing.

Just the far of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

GRACE: August 16, a Sacramento bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla, flies to Orlando to put up the $500,000 bond. Tot mom still not cooperating with police or family. Padilla believes he`ll be the one to convince her to talk. He even announces he`ll find Caylee alive in just one week.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I believe that she made a mistake. I believe that her daughter was handed off to somebody. I believe that the daughter is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still estimate it will take a week to get her back?

PADILLA: A week from today.

GRACE: Early-morning hours, August 21, after 37 days in isolation, tot mom Casey Anthony walked free from the Orange County Jail. And still, no one any closer to finding Caylee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Thank you for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes. For being with us on this special "Nancy Grace Investigates: The Caylee Anthony Investigation, the First 30 days."

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/28/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Jennifer Hudson`s Brother-in-Law Arrested in Family Murders

Aired December 1, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Jane, there is breaking news tonight. As you mentioned, "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother murdered in their own home. Well, just hours ago, an arrest. We are live in children.
And Jane, in the search for a missing Florida girl, 3-year-old Caylee, bombshell documents just released. We discover highly incriminated new Google searches on the tot mom`s computer -- neck-breaking, shovels, death, household weapons and how to make chloroform. Also tonight, the tot mom`s text messages, Jane, all to her live-in, show her big concern -- what happens to her if Caylee is never found?

Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar-winner devastated, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for her 7-year-old nephew, kidnapped from the scene, only to learn the little boy confirmed dead. Murder weapon, a P20 Sig-Sauer .45-caliber discovered in a vacant lot just yards from the 7-year-old boy found dead. As we go to air, finally, an arrest for murder one goes down. Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American "Dreamgirl," American nightmare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the murders of Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson`s family. Police have arrested 27-year-old William Balfour in connection with the murders of Hudson`s mother, brother and 7- year-old nephew, Julian King. Balfour, who is Hudson`s brother-in-law, was already being held at Statesville (ph) prison for a technical parole violation and now is expected to be formally charged for the three deaths. The bodies of Hudson`s mother, Darnell Donerson, and brother, Jason Hudson, were found October 24 inside the family`s home. Seven-year-old Julian`s body was found shot to death three days later in an SUV on Chicago`s West Side.

MICHELLE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF ACCUSED: She called him at 2:31. She talked to him. I called him from work at 5:30 this morning. I called my son. I texted my son. My son called us back. So if you committed a murder, why would you call back?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 24 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Bombshell. Over 700 pages of stunning new documents just released. They reveal new and highly incriminating Google searches on the tot mom`s computer, including neck breaking, shovels, household weapons, death, and lost (ph) numbers, also how to make the powerful and deadly sedative chloroform right there in your own home. We know significant amounts of that powerful chemical solution discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.

Also tonight, the tot mom`s text messages to her live-in. So her big concern? What happens to her if Caylee is never found? And the whole old pizza theory completely debunked tonight. It turns out there was no pizza in the tot mom`s trunk, after all this, just evidence of human decomposition, along with chloroform.

And tonight, grandmother Cindy goes to the feds, claiming her e-mail account has been hacked. And finally, a physical description of the so- called nanny the tot mom claims kidnapped little Caylee, this as new photos of little Caylee emerge. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking developments come out of newly-released documents in the case of missing toddler Casey (SIC) Anthony. In over 700 pages, investigators disclose the Anthony family computer was used to search phrases like neck-breaking, how to make chloroform, and making weapons out of household products. Deeper into the documents a text message conversation between Anthony and boyfriend Tony Lazzaro emerges. At the time, Caylee was publicly discovered missing, Anthony insisting she left Caylee with the nanny.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Closing with, quote, "If they don`t find her, guess who gets blamed and spends an eternity in jail?"

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Well, whose fault is you sitting in the jail? Are you blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We put a plate down, and I gave (INAUDIBLE) I lost it. And I just -- I couldn`t sit at the table for a few moments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. An arrest for murder one finally goes down in the shooting deaths of Oscar winner "American Idol" star Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and 7-year-old little nephew.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An arrest made in the murders of Jennifer Hudson`s family. Police announce they have arrested Hudson`s brother-in-law, 27- year-old William Balfour, in connection with the murders. Hudson`s mother and brother were found shot to death inside the family home just over a month ago, and Hudson`s 7-year-old nephew, Julian King, was found murdered three days later inside an SUV. Balfour was transferred to Chicago police custody today, and is expected to be formally charged in the coming hours. Balfour is the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, Julia. He was already being held in prison on a technical parole violation stemming from a 1999 attempted murder conviction.

BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends, OK, one of the girls that he`s dating. My oldest son, which is Raymond (ph), his brother, has told me he was with Diana (ph) that night and he was with Kate (ph) in the morning. Now, that`s what he had told me. My son told me this, OK? If William did do this, right, no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent, standing by there in Chicago. Susan, what`s the latest?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is, as you just heard, Nancy, that the Chicago police did say that they have this arrest warrant now for William Balfour. They presented it right away today to the Illinois state jail, where he was locked up on this parole violation, alleged parole violation. They immediately transferred him to the Chicago PD lock-up. He has been locked up, Nancy, now since the murders, about a month-and-a-half, since October 24.

GRACE: Well, what do they have now they didn`t have at the very beginning?

ROESGEN: Well, you know, they haven`t told us exactly what they have, but we do know from his first parole hearing last month, just a couple of weeks ago, they brought up the various little charges, you know, that he didn`t talk to his parole officer, he didn`t do this, he didn`t do that, as to why they should keep him locked up in the Illinois state jail.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That`s a smokescreen.

ROESGEN: Well, the kicker...

GRACE: It means absolutely nothing. Because I told you on day one, Susan Roesgen, in all my years as a prosecutor, you do not pick up a parolee because they miss a meeting. You know those jails are full, Susan, full of murderers, rapists, child molesters, drug dealers. You don`t want to take up a cot for somebody that missed an appointment, all right?

ROESGEN: Right.

GRACE: So there has to be more...

ROESGEN: Here`s the kicker.

GRACE: ... to it. But what is it?

ROESGEN: Well, they got the local prosecutor, someone from his office, to go there to this parole hearing and say that a girlfriend -- now, a girlfriend -- apparently, William Balfour had more than one -- that a girlfriend has said, Nancy, that she saw William Balfour with the gun that matched the .45 that was used in the murders. However, that girl herself did not come forward. It was simply what the prosecutor said there. And you have to wonder, Nancy, did this girl somehow become an instant expert on what a gun looks like?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Susan, Susan, Susan, I couldn`t hear you. She said she saw what?

ROESGEN: She saw William Balfour with a gun that she claims matches the gun that was used in the murders. I assume the cops must have said, It was this gun, right? And she said, Right.

GRACE: OK, now, what`s your problem with her not coming forward? You very typically do not have witnesses at a parole hearing. Parole hearings, Susan Roesgen, are not like full-blown jury trials. They are more akin to grand jury hearings or bench trials, where the judge or the parole officers hear evidence. It`s not like a big trial. So what`s the problem with the prosecutor coming forward with that evidence, as opposed to the girlfriend?

ROESGEN: Because there`s something smelly about it.

GRACE: Really, what?

ROESGEN: Why didn`t you come forward with this a month-and-a-half ago? Well, he could have said anything. He could have said that...

GRACE: Well, typically...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... as a result of police work, such as going out and finding the girlfriend, and showing her the weapon. Things like that don`t happen overnight. It takes time to track her down. Even the mother, when I had her right here on this show, only knew some of the girlfriends` first names. It takes a while, Susan. And let me ask you this, Susan Roesgen. You think that is smelly? You think it`s more smelly than three dead bodies, Susan?

ROESGEN: Yes, I do because I was a victim of an armed robbery, Nancy...

GRACE: Really? So you think the girlfriend coming forward and identifying the gun is worse circumstances than the three dead bodies? Good to know. Susan...

ROESGEN: Who knows if she really did? Who knows if she really did? This isn`t a trial, Nancy, as you pointed out. It was just his word. And poor Balfour has not had a lawyer from day one. No representation, Nancy, to tell him to keep his mouth shut.

GRACE: Hold on. Did I just hear you say "poor Balfour?" Did I hear that?

ROESGEN: I don`t know. I said this guy.

GRACE: You said it.

ROESGEN: We have to roll it back.

GRACE: Actually, you said it.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I want to go to Kathy Chaney...

ROESGEN: I`m not sure they`ve got the right guy.

GRACE: ... from "The Chicago Defender," joining us. Kathy Chaney, Balfour arrested, murder one, in the triple slaying of "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson`s family. What do we know is on that arrest warrant? Does it give away any of the facts that would lead to his arrest?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": Actually, it does not. And it actually doesn`t have the charges yet. When I talked to the state`s attorneys office and the Chicago Police Department about 20 minutes ago, they said charges are pending and they have yet to determine a bond hearing. Usually, in Chicago, when a person is arrested, they have within 48 hours to charge them. So we can expect some formal charges within 48 hours.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. An arrest just going down in the triple slaying of "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson`s family.

Let`s unleash the lawyers as we take your calls. Joining us tonight, Christine Grillo, prosecutor, Carmen St. George, defense attorney, Mickey Sherman, veteran trial lawyer and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?"

To Christine Grillo. Christine, it`s great to have you with us.

CHRISTINE GRILLO, PROSECUTOR: Thank you.

GRACE: First of all, when an arrest warrant goes down, the offense is named on the arrest warrant.

GRILLO: Yes. But the arrest warrant, as you know, Nancy is based on probable cause for arrest. So all they need is probable cause, so that`s basically all they`ll have to include on any kind of arrest warrant. And in doing that, then I think they`re doing everything properly. They have their evidence. They`re going to do it properly before the grand jury, and they`re going to get their charges in order.

GRACE: But what I`m -- my point is, Christine -- I`m not disagreeing with you, but my point is, in response to Kathy Chaney, who says charges haven`t come down yet so we don`t know why he was arrested, the reason he was arrested is on the arrest warrant. You can`t just arrest somebody and say, We`ll tell you why later.

So to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent there in Chicago. Susan, why was he arrested? It`s for murder, correct?

ROESGEN: Right. Three charges. Three counts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chicago police found a body in the back of this stolen SUV, and confirmed it was Hudson`s nephew. It is a terrible blow for the big city star with home-town roots, the "Dreamgirl" who could not have dreamed of such personal tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family. The woman, who is from Chicago, she`s considered a local girl, was working at a Burger King when she first auditioned for "American Idol." Now she`s become a big, big star, of course, but she said that she always came home to her family`s home, this place where her mother and brother and sister and the boy all lived.

JENNIFER HUDSON, SINGER/ACTRESS: I`ve always had a positive upbringing and positive people around me, you know? So that definitely helped out. And even when I feel down or feel like I don`t want to do this anymore, I can`t do it anymore, my mother was there to say, You know what? This is what you love to do. You have to hold onto that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar-winner Jennifer Hudson`s family gunned down in their own home, mother, brother, even her 7- year-old little nephew, found dead. Tonight, finally, an arrest goes down.

Out to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly," the senior editor with the magazine. Tom, explain to me Balfour`s connection to Hudson.

TOM O`NEIL, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Well, she is married -- he is currently married to her sister, Julia, the mother of the little boy, Julian, who was slain.

GRACE: And Tom O`Neil, do you have any idea -- we`ve known he was picked up on a parole violation almost at the get-go. Now, this is what I know, Tom O`Neil. I know that around 7:00 AM the morning of the murders, his vehicle was spotted in the Hudsons` neighborhood. He did not live there. I also know that his vehicle was then abandoned about a mile-and-a- half away at a local public school. There was video of the car being abandoned, and a male leaving the car.

We also know that he owned a .45-caliber weapon. We also know that there had been domestic discord, arguments, between them, and threats. We also know that he has a prior, including attempted murder via carjacking, and that he is a possible of member of the Black Gang Disciples. That`s what I know.

Now, Tom, you`re the reporter. You tell me why you think this translates into an arrest warrant.

O`NEIL: Well, he has already confessed, as far as we know, that he was at the house at 7:00 AM that morning, having an argument with his estranged wife, Julia, over missed car payments. She had just come from her job, where she was a school bus driver, and found her wages were garnered. So we know that they were together at 7:00 AM. The gunfire was heard at 9:00 AM.

And what`s really significant here, Nancy, is this abandonment of the car around 12:30 that you mentioned. At that same time -- and we don`t know it`s him in that video, by the way. Somebody abandoned this car. At the same time, he is pegged, according to his phone records, as being across town, leaving some people to believe, unless the timestamp is wrong on that video, he had an accomplice.

So what`s significant about these charges is some people thought he merely was involved in two of these murders, not the little boy, but it appears as if they`re pinning all three deaths on him.

GRACE: Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by there in Chicago, who refers to "poor Balfour," the man now arrested in a triple slaying, including the shooting death of a 7-year-old boy. So Roesgen, he places himself in the home at the murder scene the morning of the murders. And you`re still telling me you don`t see the connection why he`s arrested for murder?

ROESGEN: No. In fact, Nancy, I had never heard that. I really question that report. What I had heard and what you heard as well that night that we had the mother on, she said, Look, he was at Julia Hudson`s birthday party the night before the murders. They loved each other. OK, that`s the mom, but...

GRACE: Does this name ring a bell to you, Miss Roesgen, Scott and Laci Peterson? Remember the happy Christmas photo of them, and then she winds up dead in the San Francisco Bay? What, you believe the photo tells the whole story?

ROESGEN: Well, what I say, Nancy, is that I`m a typical cynical reporter, and I don`t believe they`ve got the goods on this guy. And remember that long rap record on Jason Hudson. In fact, today, Nancy, I talked to the people who keep his records. They don`t -- they are not even able to fax those records to me. Why? Because they say there`s too many of them, including felony aggravated use of a weapon, tampering with a vehicle, possession of marijuana, stealing cocaine.

This is the brother. Yes, he`s the victim. Yes, it`s terrible that he was murdered. But I just think there are too many loose ends and too many other possibilities to explain those murders.

GRACE: Oh, because maybe -- because he`s a bad guy, he can`t be murdered?

ROESGEN: Yes.

GRACE: I`ve dealt with that theory so many times in court, when defense attorneys would argue to a jury, This victim`s life was worth nothing, so you should acquit my client.

ROESGEN: Oh, no, no, no!

GRACE: It`s complete BS.

ROESGEN: What I mean is -- no...

GRACE: No, I know what you mean. Let`s unleash...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... Christine Grillo, prosecutor, Carmen St. George and Mickey Sherman. Mickey, weigh in.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would never argue that the victim`s life is worth nothing. I mean, you`ve got to be a moron to do that. And what your CNN reporter in the field is saying is -- all she`s doing is bringing up that annoying presumption of innocence, which I know gets a lot of people ticked off.

And also, you`re dealing with the fact that it`s such a hateful crime, the murder of a 7-year-old child (INAUDIBLE) I mean, there`s nothing worse than that. But try and just focus on the fact that he`s presumed innocent. And the other problem you`re having here is that we don`t know what the police have. But you know what? We`re not supposed to know what the police have. That`s why they`re the police.

GRACE: Carmen?

SHERMAN: We`re the public.

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, you know, it`s like we say in the South. If he did this, he`s an egg-sucking dog. But at this point, it`s an investigation. He`s shown to have two alibis, as far as we can tell from his mother. So it`s...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa!

ST. GEORGE: ... still in the early stages.

GRACE: Hold on. Head spinning. Alibi from his mother?

ST. GEORGE: It does happen, Nancy.

GRACE: From his mother? You don`t think your mother, my mother, would get up on the stand and lie through their teeth? From his mother? That`s his alibi? You know what? Call me back when you`ve got a better alibi. Thank you, Carmen St. George.

Out to the lines. Tammy in Massachusetts. Hi, Tammy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, let`s start on a good note. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving with the beautiful babies.

GRACE: Let me tell you something, Ms. Tammy in Massachusetts. Last Thanksgiving, my daughter was in intensive care, and I saw her before our Thanksgiving lunch. And that whole night, we were not together until I went back to the hospital. So I can`t tell you what a blessed Thanksgiving I had. And thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I recall that. I recall the time you were having and we were all praying for you. The babies are beautiful.

Anyway, on to this case situation. Being the fact that we`re talking about a child -- and I`m trying not to get upset here -- how someone could have the audacity to call this person a poor person that can look in the eyes of a 7-year-old child, shoot them to death -- I`d just like to know, is there any particular special sentencing that would go above and beyond the fact that two adults were murdered here, but they might have had a chance to fight this person off? I`d like to know what kind of sentencing, whether it`s Balfour that did it or not, would receive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think he did have something to do with it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No! I don`t want to cuss, but no. He did not have anything to do with this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends, OK, one of the girls that he`s dating. My oldest son, which is Raymond, his brother, had told me he was with Diana that night and he was with Kate in the morning. Now, that`s what he had told me. My son told me this, OK? If William did do this, right, in no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, there`s the alibi, but it doesn`t actually cover, it sounds like, the time of the murder. We are taking your calls.

Back to Tammy in Massachusetts. You know, Tammy, Illinois does have the death penalty. However, former governor George Ryan put a moratorium on it. It`s been continued by Governor Rod Blagojevich. Killing a child, in many jurisdictions, under the age of 12, 12 or under, equals the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great.

GRACE: So we can only hope that it will be sought in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great. Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did your son refuse to take a polygraph, do you know?

BALFOUR: No one knows. No one knows. No one knows. I don`t know. You don`t know. No one knows if he refused. But they refused one of his...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI has asked us not to divulge all the details while it investigates, but someone got into Cindy Anthony`s e-mail account, and sent out at least four e-mails so they appear to come from her.

There were exchanges with prior spokesman Larry Garrison, her private investigator and the Kid Finders` PR person. Cindy texted me today that she had been locked out of her e-mail over the weekend after someone broke into her account.

But private investigator says it might be somehow tied to some of the protesters who`ve been in front of her house, and they think whoever did it might be from Ocala.

The Anthonys wouldn`t talk to us about it but their private investigator say they are distressed by it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: A lot of developments in the search for little Caylee.

Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, what can you tell me about these new Google searches we`re learning about on tot mom`s computer?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, going back to March, apparently, someone who was on Casey Anthony`s computer was researching how to make chloroform, the components that you could use to make chloroform such as alcohol, acetone peroxide.

GRACE: Yes, I knew about that.

BELICH: Yes, we had reported that earlier. What we did hear also about which perhaps is more disturbing, neck-breaking, shovel, household weapons, self-defense. There were lots of searches like that going on, on her computer going back to March, which would have been months before Caylee disappeared.

GRACE: Neck-breaking, household weapons, alcohol, acetone, peroxide, death.

And out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, also searching for Caylee, explain to me how lost numbers, the search -- you go on Google or Yahoo! or any of the search engines, and you plug in "lost numbers." Why is that so important, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: You`ve got me. I`ve talked to several people, including investigators with several law enforcement agencies.

GRACE: Well, look, I`ll just clue all of you in. And I`m just a lawyer.

PADILLA: OK.

GRACE: Don`t you remember? Way back at the get-go -- let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx.

Drew, remember when she kept claiming, my nanny called me and put Caylee on the phone, and I talked to her, and I`ve lost my Blackjack cell phone, and I was using a SIM card from this phone, I plugged it into that phone. Blah, blah, blah.

All about lost numbers. Lost cell phone. About how the nanny called her, but then she tried to call her back, and the line was no longer in service. A whole song and dance about why police couldn`t trace the nanny`s phone. Yes.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: And she could never produce those numbers. You know, she said they were on one SIM card, but she couldn`t find that one. She had two different cell phones, and when it boiled down to it, she couldn`t produce any of the numbers that would be involved with the babysitter, Zenaida Gonzalez.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer who`s been on the story from the beginning, what can you tell me about these new -- newly-discovered Google and other searches on her computer?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they were conducted in March, as Kathi pointed out, but this is also the time when she was -- somebody was searching for missing children`s Web sites, as well.

Now they also searched for inhalation. There were some searches down on size spots, drug libraries, instructables, for making weapons out of household products. Chloroform habit, how to make chloroform, and chloro 2, as well.

GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx, what can you tell me about the text messages that we discovered today that were sent to her live-in, Tony Lazzaro?

PETRIMOULX: These were the text messages that were sent back and forth on the day that Casey was first arrested. Tony Lazzaro wants to know, why didn`t you tell me about Caylee? Casey admits that basically that she was a liar and a terrible mother, and that she gave the -- gave her daughter to a psycho and has really no explanation for where she is.

Tony Lazzaro is just basically baffled that someone that he trusted could betray him like this, and he is, you know, really concerned for someone that he cared about in Caylee.

GRACE: Well, I`ve been looking at all of the text messages, and one is particularly disturbing. This is where the tot mom writes to her live- in, Tony Lazzaro. This is July 16, 7:21 a.m. July 16. This is just after the police have been called in on the whole thing.

She writes, "If they don`t find her, guess who gets blamed and spends eternity in jail." Her big concern -- to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author, joining us from L.A., her big concern is what`s going to happen to her. And this is July 16.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Absolutely. Yes, her concern is about look what`s going to happen to me. And it`s like, oh, poor me. If they don`t find her, putting the blame on the police, if they don`t find her, then poor me. That`s what`s going to happen to me.

So, again, you see this narcissism, this selfishness. You know, rear its head over and over again with her.

GRACE: And I noticed in this, Dr. Glass, that the boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, keeps saying, where did you drop Caylee off? When did you last see her? And the tot mom keeps writing back, other things. She`s very vague in her answers. And it`s always about me, me, me. What`s going to happen to me if they don`t find Caylee? They. Like you said, it`s their fault that they don`t find Caylee and I`m going to get blamed for it.

This is July 16, and she is already talking about not finding Caylee. She knew they weren`t going to find Caylee.

GLASS: Exactly. Exactly. You`re so right. Again, it`s about me, me, me. And we hear this throughout the whole -- the whole situation with her. That`s all she talks about, and that`s all she is concerned about.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Karen in Nevada. Hi, Karen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, friend. Nancy, question, and then quick comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Cindy Anthony really believed that Casey was innocent, and that Caylee were really alive, wouldn`t she have handed over that right hairbrush to say, OK, law enforcement, in your face. Now go find my granddaughter.

GRACE: What about it, Mickey Sherman? Why did she hand over the wrong hairbrush, when cops asked for Caylee`s hairbrush?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Well, I think she is kind of torn. I think she doesn`t want to incriminate her daughter.

GRACE: Well, if she thought she were still alive..

SHERMAN: Well.

GRACE: . that Casey -- tot mom Casey had done nothing.

SHERMAN: I think she.

GRACE: Why not hand over the hairbrush?

SHERMAN: She may think that because she wants to think that. I mean this is the grandmother. She`s kind of been victimized in this case, too, between all of the people who volunteered to help her are really just capitalizing on this whole tragedy, and her daughter who`s a total nut job.

Yet, in all this stuff that you just reported, there`s no confession. There`s no confession.

GRACE: That`s all you`ve got? She hasn`t confessed?

SHERMAN: Yes, she hasn`t.

GRACE: Mickey Sherman, you normally don`t have confessions in murder cases. I mean you actually got to.

SHERMAN: Well, when you got people`s text messages.

GRACE: . a mental that she has to confess.

SHERMAN: Yes, but when you`ve shifted through their underwear drawer and you got everything she`s written on the computers, her text messages, everyone in the world is informing on her, you would think you would come up with some statement that -- is inculpable.

GRACE: Well, you know what, talking about not finding Caylee way back at the beginning when the search was just started I find highly incriminating and looking up neck-breaking, household weapons, death, lost numbers, shovel on the Google search.

You know, she might as well have written it all down in a diary, Carmen St. George?

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think something that we have to keep in mind is that her traces on her phone show that she was nowhere near the house. So somebody else may have had access to the computer and made those searches but I think the evidence is going to show that.

GRACE: Carmen, she was living at the home.

ST. GEORGE: . her records were.

GRACE: She was living at the home when the searches were conducted.

ST. GEORGE: It doesn`t make a difference, Nancy. If we`re using all her phone records to actually show she`s pinged at a particular location, well, then let`s use it the same way to show the fact that.

GRACE: Her cell phone does not say she was somewhere else when these searches were done on the computer. That`s totally erroneous. That`s not what the pings show.

ST. GEORGE: Nancy, that`s the information that I have heard.

GRACE: Yes.

ST. GEORGE: That her records show that she was not near the computer at the home at that time.

GRACE: Natisha Lance, what do we know about that?

LANCE: Actually, these searches were done in March. And Carmen may be referring to June, when Casey was not living at the home at the time. But these searches were done in March when she was still living at home full time.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Norma in Georgia. Hi, Norma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Excuse me. Got allergy. I am interested in where she was spending the two years before all this took place. And where was Caylee at that time? I can`t help but suspect some pornography.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, wasn`t she living at home?

PETRIMOULX: She was living at home. I`m not exactly sure, two years -- what does she mean by two years before what?

GRACE: Two year`s before the death. Caylee is only two years when she went missing. So those two years, where was she? Where was she living?

PETRIMOULX: She was living at home. It was only right before she got arrested, the months before she got arrested that she moved out. She was living with friends and then eventually with her boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro.

GRACE: I mean, bottom line, this woman has basically never held down a job. Of course, she was living at home, parked right there on her parents` sofa.

Everybody, quickly to our case alert, the search for a Georgia woman vanishing into thin air. 22-year-old Laneeka Varnado. Last heard from November 24. She was at an event at Georgia International Convention Center. After a brief phone call with her dad, she disappears.

Police on the lookout for a `99 silver Mercedes SLK 230. Varnado`s 5`5", 105 pounds, black hair, brown eyes.

Take a look. If you have any information, please call Paulding County sheriff, 770-443-3010.

And tonight, our thoughts and prayers with my former "Court TV" colleague, FOX News Channel`s Kimberly Guilfoyle. Kimi`s mother passed away when she was a little girl. And I have just learned that her father, Tony Guilfoyle, passed away Thanksgiving.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: We walk through a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled -- like a decomposed body.

I am being very straight with you guys. I got a sick feeling for a second. Because the car, it was from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor and you don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would agree with you. And you know this, because?

ANTHONY: Being deputy sheriff for all the years I was. I have investigated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?

ANTHONY: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, we now learn that the whole old pizza theory to explain the awful stench in tot mom`s car has been totally debunked.

I want to go to famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, joining us out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Kobe, it`s great to see you again.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: It`s a pleasure.

GRACE: This whole pizza theory has been used to explain the horrible stench in the car. With these documents just released, we learn there was no pizza. There was an empty box.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. I`ve said this before, Nancy. The idea that pizza would create that kind of smell is -- just doesn`t make any sense. And I`ve said this sounds to me like decomposition of either an animal or a human being, but not a pizza.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Kobilinsky, you and I go back a long way. We know the trial was set January 5th. Do you believe the trial will really go forward? I mean, we`re -- we`re heading in December in just a couple of hours.

And you, the expert, one of the main experts on the case, have not seen the evidence yet. I mean, it`s time for trial, essentially.

KOBILINSKY: I think you`re right, Nancy. I think it`s just silly to think that the defense will be able to put its case together in such a short period of time. You know, experts need to be gathered, and a lot of things have to be looked at and discussed. The trial will not be held in early January.

GRACE: Absolutely not. Because you, as an expert, need to see the evidence, review all the files, and then come up with how you want to pursue -- what theory you`re going to use.

And also, Kobe, I want to talk to you very quickly about the additional searches on tot mom`s computer we learned about tonight. Peroxide, acetone, alcohol. Can those ingredients be used to create home- made chloroform?

KOBILINSKY: Actually, no. Those ingredients.

GRACE: What are they?

KOBILINSKY: . by and of themselves, there`s an alcohol, an organic solvent -- those ingredients are not going to contribute to chloroform that is needed to make -- I`m sorry, the chlorine that is need to make chloroform. You need.

GRACE: I thought alcohol was necessary to make home-made chloroform.

KOBILINSKY: Well, yes, but you need something like bleach, sodium or potassium, hypochloride. Bleach would contribute to chlorine and then together with the alcohol or the acetone, you can form.

GRACE: So acetone is used.

KOBILINSKY: It can be.

GRACE: For chloroform.

KOBILINSKY: It can be a component.

GRACE: OK. Because first you said no.

KOBILINSKY: No, no, you need a -- source of chlorine to convert that acetone or ethanol into chloroform.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Cherie in Tennessee. Hi, Cherie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I watch you every night.

GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was calling to see if she had not worked a job in almost two years, what would the point be in even having a nanny? I think with all the animosity towards her mother, with the relationship that she had with little Caylee, I think she did this because she knew it would hurt her the worst.

GRACE: What about it, Dr. Glass? I mean the whole point of having a nanny is to keep the children while you`re at work, and since she was never at work, that further debunks the theory that there was ever a nanny.

GLASS: Absolutely. And I really agree with what the caller had to say. It really makes a lot of sense. Because when you`re looking at the whole picture, she doesn`t need a nanny. She is not working.

And again, the fact that she and the mother had a severe argument and a severe fight the night before she left, according to the brother, Lee, speaks volumes.

GRACE: And speaking of severe fights, to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, it`s our understanding that fight -- we know more details about it now?

PETRIMOULX: Yes, it was a fight that happened on June 15th. Now, Lee Anthony allegedly, according to these newly-released documents, told Casey`s ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, that Cindy Anthony grabbed her by the neck and shook her on that day.

Neighbors also say that there was screaming and yelling coming from the house on that day. So it was a pretty bad fight that happened the day before she was last seen.

GRACE: And what was the fight about?

PETRIMOULX: That is not released in there. One thing that we could think that it might be about is all this money that she had apparently been stealing. We know she was stealing from her grandfather.

In these documents we even find out that she was also stealing from her grandmother, not to mention Caylee and her parents. So, you could think that it could be money.

GRACE: Yes, Caylee`s piggy bank.

To Kathi Belich with WFTV, now we learn that grandmother Cindy claims her computer has been hacked into? What`s going on down there?

BELICH: Well, what we -- I actually got four e-mails that appeared to have come from her on Friday. And when I looked at them, it just seemed to me, based on what they were, that they wouldn`t have been the kind of thing she would want me to have.

So I texted her on her phone number, and asked if she had sent me something. She said no, she hadn`t. And today we got a little more information. Now there is -- the family`s private investigator is looking into this as well.

They say she sent no e-mails over the weekend, she was not at her house, and they are saying that some of their information from Yahoo! indicates that perhaps it was somebody in Ocala, or with ties to Ocala, and they say that some of the protesters had ties to Ocala, so that`s what we know at this point.

GRACE: So apparently someone hacked into Cindy Anthony`s computer, then sent the media information off the computer about her not giving the FBI little Caylee`s hairbrush.

Very quickly, Natisha Lance, what can you tell me about this new composite sketch of Zenaida Gonzalez? Is it from the tot mom? Is she the one that gave this description?

LANCE: Yes. It does come from Casey Anthony. She described.

GRACE: And what`s the description.

LANCE: She describes Zenaida Gonzalez as 5`7", 145 pounds, with curly brown hair that had been straightened. Also she says that she had a lot of money.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first bonded tot mom out of jail came off the bond and is now leading one of the searches for little Caylee.

Leonard, in the documents she describes -- tot mom Zenaida, Zenaida Gonzales. What do you make of this description?

PADILLA: It doesn`t fit. One of the thing that she said was that she did not have any tattoos and Zenaida has got about a dozen tats. And also she`s only about 5`4" 160 pounds. She`s definitely not 5`7". And she`s 100 percent Puerto Rican.

GRACE: And very quickly to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD, why do you believe police did not publish that description of the nanny?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Nancy, I don`t know why they didn`t. I think that they may have not wanted to send the public on a wild goose chase.

Also, they probably didn`t believe her. She would have had a lot more information about this person rather than a general description. She would have known where this person was from. We would have located her if there was a real nanny in this case.

GRACE: Donald Schweitzer, have you ever heard somebody give such a detailed yet false description?

SCHWEITZER: Yes. Many times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad. You know how hot it is. That smell was terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During an FBI interrogation he spoke about the smell of death in his daughter`s car. When asked about it tonight he shied away.

G. ANTHONY: I am going to not even answer that at this point. I -- I believe my granddaughter`s still alive. I`m going to continue to believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Chris in Montana, hi, Chris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Your babies are just precious.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I know the police investigate all the sightings and everything about Caylee and everything. And I believe with the dogs finding the pants and poor little Caylee probably is dead.

But that picture that you guys showed last week in Florida, that mall, that little girl, have they checked that one out to make sure that it just kind of looks like Caylee and it`s not here?

GRACE: Yes, let`s see that photo, Liz. This is a recent sighting at a local Orlando mall.

To Drew Petrimoulx, police said they were not following up on the lead, not following up on the picture. What do we know?

PETRIMOULX: That`s right. They`re not following up on any more leads of live sightings of Caylee or searches for her out of state. They said that the FBI evidence and the DNA evidence shows that she`s dead and they refuse to chase these sightings around the country.

They`ve already used thousands and thousands of dollars of their resources to -- for the search and they`re not willing to search any more.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, e-mails between Cindy Anthony and her brother show they fought over what happened to Caylee. Do you know anything about their arguments?

PADILLA: Rick basically talked to one of our team members at one time. And we didn`t know if it was really a brother or not. But whoever the person was, he was very discouraged about the position Cindy was taking.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Christian Cotner, 21, Waterbury, Connecticut, killed Iraq. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Global war on Terrorism medal, Sea Service Deployment ribbon.

Loved the Yankees, adventure, bungee jumping, roller coasters, video games, remote-controlled airplanes. Leaves behind parents Karen and Graham, brother Eric.

Christian Cotner, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special thank you to Calvin`s Grill in Warner Robins, Georgia for hosting a huge family reunion and two hungry twins over the holidays.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/01/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

More Casey Anthony Jail House Tapes Released

Aired December 4, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 24 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, as we go to air, secret video from behind bars just released. Tonight, tot mom Casey Anthony`s personal jailhouse visits from parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, their private conversations, or so they thought, grilling her with questions about little Caylee`s disappearance all caught on tape. We have the videos.

In her own words, we hear the tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, web of lies, admitting she has not shed a single tear behind bars, instead frittering away her time reading, napping, anything but thinking of Caylee, even laughing and joking. Mom Casey claims she`s protecting her family, but then goes on to give a detailed description of the alleged kidnapper, nanny Zenaida Gonzalez.

Grandparents George and Cindy test out motives for Caylee`s alleged kidnapping, concerned that drugs or the tot mom`s habitual stealing is to blame. The grandparents are desperate, even willing to go into protective custody to get little Caylee back. We learn, in her own words, playing the role of victim, tot mom blaming everybody, including police. After hours and hours of visits, not one time -- not one time -- is there a single legitimate discussion of the search for Caylee, just the tot mom dodging one question after the next. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Do you think Zanny is acting by herself or did she have help?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I don`t know, Mom. I haven`t been able to talk to anybody. I don`t know. I`m hoping that if there`s people involved, there`s as many people that are dumb enough to open their mouth and say something as possible. But Mom, I have -- I have nothing to go off of at the moment. I don`t know.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I really -- I don`t know. Jose and I go over this every time we talk.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know the pictures of Caylee in Zanny`s apartment. Is Zanny`s apartments the one with the drums?

CASEY ANTHONY: She had a drum set, yes.

CINDY ANTHONY: The one in the picture?

CASEY ANTHONY: I think there are even other pictures. I told Lee to look through everything.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Is that Zanny`s apartment? Because I know whose apartment it is. Is it Zanny`s apartment?

CASEY ANTHONY: That exact apartment, if that was Ricardo`s apartment, is set upon a lot like Zanny`s apartment.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Do we have any pictures of Zanny`s apartment?

CASEY ANTHONY: Lee and I already talked about this. I don`t know. It could on the desk at home. I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Hours, hours of secret jailhouse video recordings of the tot mom just released.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S BROTHER: Hey, gorgeous. How`re you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell!

LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know something? You really need to keep your spirit high through all this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.

LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know something...

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff.

CINDY ANTHONY: Did Lee tell you how much the reward is to find Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: Can you imagine?

CASEY ANTHONY: I haven`t heard anything of this, so...

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s over -- I think it`s $225,000.

CASEY ANTHONY: Jesus Christ. That`s half my bond.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, a lot of people want that little girl found.

CASEY ANTHONY: Good, the more people the better. Everyone should want her back.

I`m being as strong as I can, considering the situation. It`s just hard. It`s just very hard. I just -- God, I just want to go home! Every day I wake up, I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home. I just want to be with you guys. I just want to help find her because I feel a little hopeless. I feel a little helpless here, I mean, honestly, not really hopeless, but more helpless because I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have to ask...

CASEY ANTHONY: Go ahead.

CINDY ANTHONY: Did Caylee ever stay at Tony`s?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you sure?

CASEY ANTHONY: Positive. We hung out over there, but she`d never stayed, no.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Tony admitted to Lee that there`s drugs in his home. Could this be related to something like that?

CASEY ANTHONY: No. It`s not.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. I just had to ask.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, his roommates smoke weed, but no.

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: One, Caylee would never stay over there. And two, I wouldn`t have Caylee just stay at anybody`s house.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you wouldn`t. That`s why I had to ask.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. That`s fine.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: This might be a tough thing to answer...

CASEY ANTHONY: No, go ahead.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But did you borrow something from anyone or remove it without their permission that Caylee might be being held for?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I know that`s a tough question, sweetie, but I just need to ask you.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not a tough question. I mean, Mom knows the stuff that I have taken from her. We discussed that, you know, on numerous occasions. And with Amy, you know, I mean, I feel guilty about that. I feel extremely guilty. But I was under a time of desperation.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, well, what do you mean -- what do you mean by that, it was a time of desperation? I don`t understand.

CASEY ANTHONY: Like I said to you, and what I said to Mom, and Lee and I have spoken, and he advised me of something which is very smart. A written contact would be better than anything that`s going to be recorded since we can`t speak openly and freely in person.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I understand that. OK. Well, I don`t want to take time, then, going into anything else. And I just -- I want you to know, is there something that I can do for you, sweetie? I mean, I want you out of here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are seeing jailhouse videos secretly recorded. They thought it was their personal conversations. Not so. Nothing behind bars is personal, is subject to any privacy conditions. You are seeing grillings, as best as they can, by George and Cindy Anthony of the tot mom, concerned that her habitual stealing or possibly even drugs are connected to little Caylee`s disappearance.

We are taking your calls live. Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, why were these tapes released, Mark?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, they were released by jailhouse corrections officials, of course, here in Orange County, and they reveal a side of Casey Anthony that we had never seen before -- laughing, crying, sniffling, sighing a lot.

And when they ask her about Zenaida Gonzalez, she just gets snarky about what`s going on. And she denies a lot of things, like, for example, no drugs were involved with the disappearance of little Caylee. And really, she`s not helping herself or helping find little Caylee at all.

GRACE: Well, speaking of her sniffling -- let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in Atlanta. Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Richard Herman, veteran trial lawyer out of New York.

Eleanor Dixon, if you heard her, like I did, state that she had not been crying for Caylee behind bars, every time she starts to sniffle, it`s about her own predicament. It`s never about little Caylee.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Isn`t that interesting, Nancy? She`s more concerned with herself and the amount of her bond and all of that, rather than the search for Caylee. And if her parents even start asking her about it, she just gives up a lot of excuses.

GRACE: What about it, Richard Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, these conversation are not privileged. They are going to be admissible in court, subject to a relevance objection. But you know, what are we proving so far by hearing this stuff? What are we proving? I don`t think they`re relevant at this point.

GRACE: Are you just pontificating, or do you really want to know what they prove?

HERMAN: Yes, I want to know what you think they prove.

GRACE: I`ll tell you what they prove. They prove that she`s not concerned in the least about her missing daughter.

HERMAN: That`s not true. She said...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And you want to hear what else they prove...

HERMAN: She wants to come home to help find her.

GRACE: I`ll finish my sentence! They prove that she is not concerned about her daughter. She has not shed a single tear behind bars for her daughter. And if you listen to this stuff for hours and hours, as I have been doing all day long, you do not hear one legitimate conversation about the search for her daughter. Why? Because she knows she`s dead.

HERMAN: She wants to get out of there to help find her daughter, and she`s crying during the entire conversation.

GRACE: Oh, really? Richard Herman...

HERMAN: Yes, that`s what I heard.

GRACE: ... can you outline on just even one hand what she did when she got out to find her daughter? Listening!

HERMAN: I don`t know. Why don`t we get Padilla...

GRACE: OK!

HERMAN: Padilla can probably tell you what she did.

GRACE: Thanks! Peter Odom, weigh in.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I was just comparing her demeanor there in the jail visits with her demeanor when she was at the Club Fusian. This is one of the most narcissistic suspects ever.

GRACE: You are a defense attorney, Peter Odom? And while your observation is entirely accurate, what do you do with that at trial, Peter?

ODOM: I think you show that this is someone that is so narcissistic, Nancy, that it`s a pathology. And that`s where this case is headed, toward a mental defense.

GRACE: An illness? Bethany Marshall, I guess you`ve had just about a snoot full of people suggesting this woman is insane.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, maybe she`s a narcissist, but narcissists do know right from wrong, so that would not meet the mental -- the defense -- the insanity defense.

But what I see with these tapes is that Casey built this elaborate lie that someone took the baby. Now George and Cindy are very invested in the lie because the more they go into the lie, the more they can ward off the fact that their daughter might be homicidal. So they keep questioning her about little Caylee, but Casey`s not so interested in that lie anymore. That`s an old myth, an old story. She only cares about herself, her own tears. At one point, she even talks about restricting her calories and what she looks like. That`s all she really cares about.

GRACE: You know, I`m glad you mention that. Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. I noticed that when they were telling her, with what excitement they could muster -- you know, George and Cindy Anthony reeling from the disappearance of Caylee -- they`re saying, Guess how much the reward is for her? And when she finds out it`s 250 grand, she goes, That`s half my bond.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s half my bond.

GRACE: She wants them to use that money to get her out of jail? Is that what she`s suggesting?

BROOKS: Hey, yes, from what we heard about her, Nancy, it wouldn`t surprise me that it was the first thing that popped into her mind. What can that money go for towards me? Nancy, if her mouth is moving, Casey Anthony is lying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: He wanted to know if you were eating regularly (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: I ate cole slaw today. Tell him I ate cole slaw.

(LAUGHTER)

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, you`re probably eating a lot of things you never used to eat before because when you`re hungry, you`ll eat...

CASEY ANTHONY: I hated baloney. I`ve been eating baloney and cheese on occasion. Grits -- I don`t do grits at all. It`s terrible.

(LAUGHTER)

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, you know what? You`re going eat what`s in front of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY: We never really got a full description of Zanny. I know she`s got brown curly hair.

CASEY ANTHONY: Shoulder length. She wears it straight.

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s curly.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s curly, but she also wears it straight. (INAUDIBLE) it`s called a straightener. She`s the one that gave me my straightener.

CINDY ANTHONY: That`s true. OK. How tall is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: About 5, 7-ish. She`s, like, maybe an inch or two shorter than Dad, so 5-6, 5-7, very thin, maybe a little bit more meat than me, about 140-ish, fairly tan, brown eyes, no tattoos that I`ve ever seen, that I know of.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, I would think that if anybody around her knew her, they would have come forward by now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s what I was thinking. That`s even what I had told Jose. If it was anyone that especially has known me that knows Caylee, that at least knows of us...

CINDY ANTHONY: Did anybody ask you to describe her, and they did a composite drawing of her?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not once. And when they went and interviewed that girl down in Kissimmee, they never showed me a picture of her. They never searched...

CINDY ANTHONY: OK, but they told us that...

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, they told us that you couldn`t pull her out of a line-up.

CASEY ANTHONY: They`re full of (DELETED) I had told them multiple times, Find a sketch artist, show me pictures, show me something. I can point her out to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are seeing just-released jailhouse recordings of what they thought were private conversations, where George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents, grill tot mom Casey Anthony about the disappearance of her 2- year-old daughter, little Caylee. Every question is dodged. And you see the Anthonys basically handling her with kid gloves.

We are taking your calls live. We`ll get right to that, but first, more of these stunning conversations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, God. My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. It`s in my gut every day stronger and stronger, I know we`re going see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. I want you to know that.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. I want her home now.

CINDY ANTHONY: I want her home so we can celebrate her third birthday...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know.

CINDY ANTHONY: ... and be a family again.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Every day, I can feel it, Mom. I know that I`m going to be home with you guys. I know she`s going to be home with us. Everyone just has to keep that faith because mine`s growing stronger every day.

I`m being as strong as I can, considering the situation. It`s just hard. It`s just very hard.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: God, I just want to go home! Every day I wake up, I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home. I just want to be with you guys. I just want to help find her because I feel a little hopeless. I feel a little helpless here. I mean, honestly, not really hopeless, but more helpless because I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: From where you`re at. OK. Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter from Sacramento, who first posted the tot mom`s bail, came off the bail and is now searching for little Caylee. Leonard, from where she`s at -- explain to me -- you were in the home. What did she do when she finally got out?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Nancy, I`ve got to confess to you that she actually told us -- right now today, when I was watching these tapes, I went back through some notes. She told us, Zenaida held me down while Samantha took the baby from me, and with the other two children, went to the Ford Focus. I asked her, I says, Why would Zenaida do that to you? This is before I blew up and became stupid. She says, In retaliation. And why would she do that to retaliate? She said. Oh, probably for some money that I owed her.

She mentioned, as I have said before, Blanchard Park, Blanchard Park, Blanchard Park, told us exactly where. She subsequently told Rob, she subsequently told Tracy. There is no doubt in my mind, and even less in Tracy and Rob`s mind today after watching these videos, that that child went into the Little Econ River and she subsequently went back and hung a cross in that tree.

And we felt so strong about it that we called Nick Savage, the FBI agent, and we said, You`ve got the two beads that were found at the base of the tree. Go ask Cindy to look in her room for the rest of the beads and match up the milling from the machines that make those beads and you`ll find that they`re identical.

She told us. But I was so upset that she was running the Zenaida thing that I just blew up, and then she got upset and told me to get out of her house. That`s where she put the baby. And right now in one of these tapes, you`ll see where she says, You guys were the greatest grandparents, and then she catches herself and says, Are the greatest grandparents.

GRACE: Take a listen to more of these stunning jailhouse videotapes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Silver Ford Focus 2008, four-door. The windows aren`t tinted. It`s very basic. There`s a pink floral carseat on the right passenger side, in the back seat. That`s the car seat that she`s had for Caylee, and that`s why Caylee doesn`t...

CINDY ANTHONY: None of her stuff is missing from the house because she`s got everything.

CASEY ANTHONY: She has everything. She`s always had shoes, socks, diapers, clothes, toys, I mean, you name it.

CINDY ANTHONY: Who else did she ever nanny for before besides Jeff, that you`re aware of?

CASEY ANTHONY: No one that I know of. He`s the only person that I knew of.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know she`d watched her nephews and her niece. Outside of that, I don`t know if there is anyone else.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And she definitely watched Anabelle (ph).

CASEY ANTHONY: Definitely watched Anabelle on several occasions.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Is there any...

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, we`re not talking. Can`t.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, no, no, no.

CINDY ANTHONY: Me, no, no. I know. It`s hard. I`m just wondering if there`s anything else you want me to tell Caylee because everybody -- you know, I always get an opportunity to speak to the media. Is there anything you want me to say to Caylee (INAUDIBLE) or anything?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that I love her and that I miss her. I mean, that`s the constant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just released in the last hours, hours of secretly-recorded phone calls between the tot mom and her parents, little Caylee`s grandparents, in which they asked her question after question regarding little Caylee`s disappearance.

To Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction, who specializes in crimes on women and children. In this case, there`s no privacy behind bars. Explain.

DIXON: Well, exactly, Nancy. There`s no expectation of privacy. It`s a public place, if you will. And in many jails, they have signs up that say, Your conversations are monitored. When you call somebody on the telephone, there`s a recording that comes on saying, This call is being monitored. So no expectation of privacy.

GRACE: Let`s go to the defense attorneys, Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney, Atlanta, Richard Herman, famed defense attorney out of New York. Peter Odom, what do you do when your client, who is charged in the murder of her then 2-year-old little girl, is joking behind bars that she`s eating cole slaw with yucky mayo in it?

ODOM: Well, the first thing we do, when we meet with them, Nancy, is to tell them...

GRACE: Try to suppress it?

ODOM: Well, the first we do is to tell them, Please don`t be...

GRACE: Shut the hey up?

ODOM: ... talking about any of these things at the jail because we know they`re going to be recorded and probably used against them.

GRACE: Herman?

ODOM: The second thing we do is to make (INAUDIBLE) for relevance.

HERMAN: How about the rule of completeness, the entire tape?

GRACE: Oh, you want the whole thing? All right.

HERMAN: Yes.

GRACE: Be careful what you ask for, for you will surely get it, Richard Herman.

HERMAN: I hope so.

GRACE: You, too, Odom!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We forgive anything that you`ve said.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Hold on. Can we turn the volume down? You can probably hear it. My head`s going to explode. I haven`t said anything, don`t worry. No one has said anything for me of the ways that I love my daughter. That I -- I want her safety and that she and the rest of our family is my only concern.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I`m writing this down. (INAUDIBLE)

C. ANTHONY: All I want is to see her again, to hear her laugh, to see her smile and to just be with our family. Nothing else matters to me at this point.

L. ANTHONY: We all feel that way. Every one of us. OK, Case?

C. ANTHONY: I know. But again, they`ve been hearing that from you, from her uncle, from her grandparents, not from -- her mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You are hearing just-released recorded conversations from behind bars, conversations the Anthonys apparently thought were private. They`re not. Nothing behind bars is private.

We are taking your calls live out to Natalie in Florida. Hi, Natalie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe that no one has thought of this. For a person who hasn`t worked for two years.

GRACE: How does she afford a nanny?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?

GRACE: Are you going to say how can she afford a nanny?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Were you about to say how can she afford a nanny?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. I have another question.

GRACE: I`m not clairvoyant. I`m sorry. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she hasn`t worked for two years and she steals from her family and friends, if the father of Caylee is dead, wouldn`t she be wanting to prove he`s dead for the Social Security benefits Caylee would be entitled to?

GRACE: Natalie, what do you do for a living? Excuse me?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A little bit of everything. I need to be a private detective.

GRACE: No. You should be a lawyer.

What about it, Richard Herman? What do you have to say to Natalie in Florida. You know, I mean, she`s stealing gas her parent`s car. If this father is dead why not on the gravy train of the government?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, what I can say? She should be. She should have been doing that.

GRACE: I don`t know. I`m asking you. Don`t ask me back. You tell me.

HERMAN: I don`t know what her motives were. Maybe her parents were supplementing her income. Maybe her boyfriends were giving her money. I don`t know how she was earning income during those two years. And it`s irrelevant to this case.

GRACE: No. It`s not irrelevant. It`s just another one of her lies.

HERMAN: Has nothing to do with this first-degree murder.

GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, a thought and Natalie sparked the thought. How can her parents actually believe she had a nanny if she was stealing money from them to go buy a push-up bra at Target?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it`s pretty typical that you see with the parents of defendants, they`re in denial. They`re not going to believe anything bad about their daughter and we see that every day in criminal cases.

GRACE: You know what, you`re right about that.

What about it, Dr. Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, that`s why I talked earlier about the parents stepping into the lie. They want to believe the lie so they can delude themselves that their daughter is OK.

And another lie is that she`s actually concerned about her daughter. She seems quite resentful when little Caylee is mentioned. She throws out gratuitous things like, oh I want to see my daughter and I want her to be found.

But she sounds quite resentful and all that giggling and laughing? She`s giggling because she has her parent`s attention all to herself which I believe could have been the motive for homicide if she did kill her daughter that she wanted her parents to herself. She didn`t want to share her parents with her little child.

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, Drew, it dawned on me while I was listening to the tot mom weave another yarn about the nanny that kidnapped little Caylee, she told them that the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez, had a complete wardrobe for Caylee, had a car seat for her, had brushes and combs, everything the little girl would need, but yet the grandparents never noticed that Caylee`s clothing and her possessions, her toys, were missing?

That they were with the nanny? They never met the nanny? Who bought all this stuff? Tot mom didn`t have a job.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: No, she didn`t have a job. And, you know, there`s really no record of Zenaida throughout these interviews. They`re asking her for information. How can we get in touch with Zenaida? Where -- you know where does she live? Who can we contact?

And the whole time Casey is just basically giving them a runaround. She doesn`t have any numbers. It`s just all this confusion. There`s never anything concrete throughout the -- almost six hours of tape there`s nothing through the entire time that can be concrete evidence that can be actually used to try to locate Zenaida or Caylee.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, a board-certified forensic pathologist. Dr. Arnall joining us from Denver.

Doctor, Tim Miller from EquuSearch just made a stunning announcement that he does not believe Caylee or her remains are findable. Why?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I agree. After six months the bones, if they`re on the surface, are likely completely skeletonized. It is likely that small animals have scattered the bones. The bones have likely sunk in to the soft soil.

If some small animal or if an alligator has eaten part of the remains that would explain why no remains have ever been found despite extensive searches.

GRACE: You know, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, it ain`t over yet. I recall a case in my old jurisdiction where the body was proven with one glass eyeball many years later.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know, Nancy, you know, when it comes to homicide investigations, you never say never. You know? And there is -- you can go years and years, someone may come across a piece of bone. They can prove the DNA, but again, in this case, you can never say never, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to more of the secretly recorded jailhouse conversations between tot mom and her family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY: How come she never got a chance to get the car? It doesn`t make sense.

CASEY: Mom, because this is recorded and I don`t know who`s going to see things and who`s going to misconstrue whatever else, like I said, there`s things that I directly need to say to each of you.

CINDY: OK. I trust that.

CASEY: But Lee and I are finding other means to do.

CINDY: Is there a Tia Torres in our neighborhood? There`s a Tia Torres.

CASEY: Tia Torres?

CINDY: Yes.

CASEY: I don`t know who that is. I don`t know who a lot of the people are that live in our neighborhood outside of.

CINDY: Well, she -- I forget who she told, but she told someone that I was hospitalized recently with a mental condition.

CASEY: Wow.

CINDY: This is serious.

CASEY: I`m glad I`m not on the outside. I`m really glad I`m not out there.

CINDY: You`d be surprised the crap that come in, you know, that people say.

CASEY: I`m not surprised at the crap that`s coming up. That`s another reason I don`t want to hear any of this media bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED). If people want to have their face on the news, want to have their two seconds of fame, I never once wanted to be on TV and to have anything, period, let alone be the worst catastrophic thing that can happen not only to myself but to our family.

L. ANTHONY: Obviously Jose works for you, OK? Anything that you say to Jose is supposed to be attorney/client privilege and supposed to be in confidence.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: How that works is even if you ask him to reach out to the family, if you ask him to reach out to law enforcement, if you give him a later and ask him to do it, he is not obligated to do that. He will weigh -- he will make a decision if it`s in his or your best interest.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: It is his best interest, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Marie in Pennsylvania, hi, Marie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering, has the grandmother ever said to anybody that she blames herself because of the big fight they had that night, she`s the one who set Casey off and now she`s responsible for Caylee`s missing?

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, what about that and what can you tell me about that huge argument that allegedly happened the night before Caylee went missing?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, I don`t think Cindy blames herself for -- for maybe pushing Casey over the edge. What happened on the night of -- what we believe is June 15th is that Casey and Cindy got into a verbal fisticuffs in the house and in an e-mail to -- from Lee Anthony to Jesse Grund, it was apparent that Cindy eventually grabbed Casey by the neck and shook her around a little bit.

But I don`t think that was it. I think there`s -- this thing has been simmering for a long time and it just exploded that day.

GRACE: What, specifically, was the argument about, Mark?

WILLIAMS: From what we gather, probably what Casey has been doing the past couple of weeks and her -- possibly her spending habits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY: I`m protecting our family, yes. Not from anything that I`ve that I`ve done.

CINDY: Someone`s threatening us? Is someone threatening us?

CASEY: Mom, just leave it at that, please.

CINDY: OK.

CASEY: For right now, just leave it at that.

CINDY: OK. I trust you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY: What message do you want me to give to Zanny and to Caylee? What do you want me to tell Zanny?

CASEY: That she needs to return Caylee.

CINDY: What do you think her reasons are?

CASEY: Mom, I don`t know.

CINDY: OK.

CASEY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and that she`s smiling and she`s happy and that she`s, that`s she`s OK.

CINDY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY: That mommy loves her very much, and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me and to be brave.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I miss you, Sweetie.

CASEY: I know that. I miss you, too.

G. ANTHONY: I wish I could have been a better dad, a better grandfather, you know?

CASEY: You`ve been a great dad and you`ve been the best grandfather. Don`t for a second think otherwise. You and mom have been the best grandparents. Caylee`s been so lucky.

G. ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY: Caylee is so lucky to have both of you. I can`t even put into words how glad I am that she`s had both of you and that she still has both of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, for somebody who`s apparently grieving or says she`s grieving over her kidnapped daughter, this woman is very focused on her own stomach. Snickers bars, strawberry bars, pretzel crisps, pork skins, let`s see what else here. Beauty products, Chex Mix peanut butter, mouth wash, lemonade.

You know, she`s doing a lot of ordering off her menu.

To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor, I`ve never heard of a jail with basically take-out or room service like that. Have you seen that list? There`s crab meat, shrimp cocktail. You name it. It`s like being at the Hilton Hotel.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: And to think, Nancy, she didn`t even have to put any money on her account. She had people donate money to that he account so she could buy these things.

GRACE: Now, Dr. Bethany, I`m sure that the defenses will say there`s no playbook for grieving, but I recall grieving after someone dear to me had been murdered and the thought of food, the smell of food turned my stomach.

Just the thought of eating and I can even remember many, many weeks later the first thing I finally ingested was a glass of orange juice.

MARSHALL: And the.

GRACE: It was a week had passed before I felt like eating.

MARSHALL: And the reason that is -- the reason that is, Nancy, is that when you grieve the world is an empty place. You lose your appetite for it and all you want is the lost loved one and because of that all you can do is reminisce about the lost ones, where they are, what are they doing? What are they talking about?

GRACE: Well, could you then explain to me, Dr. Bethany, the Chex Mix, the cheese crackers, the jalapeno dip, the bold and zesty -- I mean it goes on and on. Cheddar popcorn, tortilla strips, pretzel crisps, tuna, beef jerky, pork skins.

I mean, this woman is an eating machine. Isn`t she supposed to be grieving?

MARSHALL: Well, she`s a texting machine, too. She does a lot of things, but, I mean, quite frankly, she`s not grieving. Again, when you grieve, you reminisce. You think about the lost loved ones. There is not one reminiscence in this whole six hours of tape about little Caylee.

She only mentions her resentfully and all that eating, it`s just about self-gratification. All that energy is focused on herself and her parents are colluding with her. They treat her like a frightened little kitten rather than a girl that`s really as tough as nails.

GRACE: And you know, Leonard Padilla, you were in the home after her first or initial release from jail, and you said that`s how they treated her in the home as well, with kid gloves like she was the prom queen in the kitchen.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: That`s right. Kid gloves and like the good doctor there just said, you know, she is as tough as nails. But here`s the one thing that I`m willing to say and we were talking about it today, if she will come forth and tell us and we receive proof of where the body is, we`ll get bail set for her and get her back out of jail pending her trial. But she has to be honest with us.

GRACE: Well, if the state would go ahead and get off this duff and announce they`re seeking the death penalty, not so fast, Padilla.

Back to -- let`s go to Stephanie in Arizona. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I can`t see a nanny working a year, year and a half without getting payment. My question, have the police learned if there was any kind of schedule that Casey was paying her and if there`s a paper trail attached to that.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the get-go, what about it, Natisha? I assume that it`s an avenue police have explored.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They have explored it. There`s no paper trail. There`s no schedule of payment because they have not been able to find a Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez who exists.

GRACE: And to Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta -- Eleanor, why didn`t the grandparents get suspicious? I mean, for all this time the baby was supposed to be with a nanny they never met. She never called the house, they never saw her, they never saw her come pick up the child. This girl is not working.

How can she afford a nanny plus another wardrobe?

DIXON: You`re exactly right, although Casey was stealing money from everybody, but I certainly think that would go towards premeditation as part of the prosecution.

GRACE: I keep saying secretly recorded phone calls. A lot of people don`t understand that they are being recorded behind bars, but it is clearly posted and everyone else at the jail seems to know they`re being recorded.

What about this bunch? Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY: Has Jesse ever watched Caylee in the last month or so while he was off work?

CASEY: No.

CINDY: OK.

CASEY: The last time he watched Caylee was at his parents` house when she was a baby. So that was 2006.

CINDY: OK. You know his dad has been trying to reach out to your dad. His mom sent Lee an e-mail and said to tell us that they, as much as the differences that they had with you, they still know that you`re a good mom and that, you know, they want Caylee back as well. So I want you to know that.

CASEY: I appreciate that. I mean, coming from his family, that means a lot. As far as Jesse as an individual is very questionable for me.

L. ANTHONY: I cannot speak to anybody else`s focus other than what they`ve told me.

CASEY: Mm-hmm.

L. ANTHONY: What I can do is speak to my own focus.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: What I can tell you is my number one focus is on Caylee.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: My second focus is you.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: My third is mom.

CASEY: Mm-hmm.

L. ANTHONY: Then dad. Then me.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: OK? So I want to make -- and I don`t give (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about Baez. I don`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about anything else. That is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) anything else, that is -- those are my priorities.

CASEY: Perfect, thank you. Yes.

CINDY: The whole United States is looking for Caylee.

CASEY: I know that, mom.

CINDY: Her cover is going to be on "People" magazine in a few days.

CASEY: OK.

CINDY: Everybody is looking for her.

CASEY: Oh, good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: Hey, gorgeous, how are you doing?

CASEY: I look like hell.

G. ANTHONY: You know something? You really need to keep your spirit high for all this.

CASEY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.

G. ANTHONY: Well, you know something?

CASEY: I`ve been trying to read books and doing other things to keep my mind off of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are hearing recorded phone calls from behind bars with the tot mom and her family in which they grill her, asking her questions about Caylee`s disappearance. She manages to dodge every question.

Out to the lines, Beth in Washington. Hi, Beth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it`s more of a comment, I guess, than a question.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just curious how that is it that if Casey came across Zenaida`s name as a coincidence, while in the Sawgrass Apartment offices, how is it that George was able to talk to Caylee about that name when he said that she showed no recognition? It just seems like such a large coincidence that.

GRACE: Beth, I don`t believe he asked her about the name. I think he asked her about the nanny. But you know what, maybe you`re right.

What about it, Mark Williams, did he?

WILLIAMS: Well, from what we know, from what some transcripts that we have is the fact that whenever he mentioned the nanny, there was no name recognition.

GRACE: Did he use the name or "the nanny?"

WILLIAMS: As far as I know, he may have used that name because obviously during the course of.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Beth makes an excellent point.

WILLIAMS: Sure, she does.

GRACE: . that we will follow up on.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: Thank you, Beth.

But, everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Cody Legg, 23, Escondido, California, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Army Achievement medal, Overseas Service ribbon, Global War on Terrorism Service medal, lost his life trying to rescue two fellow soldiers.

Loved hanging out with friends, Disneyland, San Diego Padres, playing baseball, dreamed of being a firefighter or EMT, building a life with his girlfriend. He leaves behind parents Bunny and Dave, four brothers.

Cody Legg, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special tonight from Georgia friends of the show Carol, Edward, and all, good luck. Also, to our star intern in Atlanta, Scotty. Isn`t she beautiful? She`s heading back to finish her studies at Southern Methodist University.

Scotty, walk slow and hurry back, friend.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/04/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Defense Ignores Police Tip Collection

Aired December 8, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony insist surveillance video will reveal images of Caylee alive and well, and they are demanding legal action to get their hands on that video. What`s on the video? What will it reveal? And tonight, George and Cindy Anthony announce they`ll travel across the country to investigate another alleged sighting of 3-year-old Caylee in California.

And tonight, we learn that although the defense repeatedly accuses police of withholding evidence, it`s the defense team that has failed to show up and simply retrieve hours and hours of CDs of thousands of Caylee tips. Why? Does the defense actually believe Caylee was murdered, and therefore all of these tips, thousands of them, are useless?

And tonight, more new secretly recorded video surveillance of the tot mom behind bars, her personal visits with parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, private conversations, or so they thought. And they`re grilling her with questions about little Caylee`s disappearance. More of tot mom`s web of lies, admitting she hasn`t shed a single tear behind bars. We hear it all in her own words, her attacks on friends, acquaintances, claiming everybody`s lying but her, right down to the tot mom`s own hair stylist.

And tonight, exclusive, the high-profile lawyer who argued against the death penalty for tot mom. He`s taking your calls live. And the search gears up again. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We`ve got to bring you and we`ve got to bring Caylee home. And we know where you`re at. I don`t want to see you here. I don`t want you here. But...

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Yes, but in some ways, I almost feel more protected here than if I were on the outside.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, I guess there`s some truth in that. But you know, once we get that little girl home, which I hope is today, you know, the stuff with you is not going to be easy to get through, but at least we`ll have you out also. And that`s...

CASEY ANTHONY: As long as we have Caylee home, everything else with me we`ll deal with as we can. Lee made a good point. Getting Caylee home is our priority. Everything else will fall into place after that. And that`s the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s the truth. OK.

Also tonight, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mom vanishing into thin air, Birmingham, Alabama, her 1-year-old baby boy left behind at day care. Mommy never comes to pick him up. Is there a break? Grainy surveillance video released tonight. What happened to 23-year-old Nadia Kersh?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are desperately searching for clues in the case of missing 23-year-old mother Nadia Kersh. Just released, grainy surveillance video shows the last time Nadia was seen, leaving work on her lunch break. Nadia left her job in the early afternoon to pick up her 1- year-old son from day care and hasn`t been seen since. Nadia`s car was found abandoned the next day, her purse found in a wooded area nearby. Police have conducted multiple searches in the area and are awaiting forensic test results on physical evidence found in Nadia`s car, hoping those lab tests can help crack this mystery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. More secretly-recorded surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: What can I do (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: Just try to keep talking to the media, I guess, keep things positive, keep it focused on Caylee. That means to me the main focus.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Is there anything else that you want to say directly to me at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just that I wish that none of this would have ever happened. I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, we all feel that way.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I`m sorry.

CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t have to apologize. It`s good to actually see you guys smile a little bit.

CINDY ANTHONY: Dad was out sweating, working, doing fliers and stuff. I just...

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: I haven`t showered in two days.

CINDY ANTHONY: We got a flat tire as we were getting off the expressway. My car tire went flat.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, guess what? That happened to me!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. What is this about the defense allegedly sitting on hours and hours of CDs prepared by police, thousands of tips, yet they claim police are withholding evidence from them?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They even went to court to try to get these tips, but it really amounts to a public records request. But 1,800 tips have been sitting on two CDs at the Orange County sheriff`s office for a month. And he (ph) actually interviewed with us November 5 and said he wanted these tips because if even one of them could lead them to Caylee, and they still believe she`s alive, then it was worth going through all of them, and yet he`s let them sit there a whole month.

GRACE: Kathi Belich, it seems to me that if the grandparents are claiming little Caylee is still alive and all of these tips are sitting there, it`s just a matter that their attorney or them, they won`t go pick them up? Why?

BELICH: I don`t know. There is a $980 charge. It took the sheriff`s office 50 hours to put these things together. I don`t know. Is it the money? We don`t know. The defense has given us several different reasons for not picking them up, none of which make any sense...

GRACE: What are they?

BELICH: ... but they`re still sitting there tonight...

GRACE: What are the reasons that they`re giving?

BELICH: First they said that it wasn`t what they asked for -- first they told me I was lying that they were even sitting there. Then I told them I had video of that. And then they said that they weren`t what they had asked for. But I didn`t know how they would know that if they hadn`t picked them up yet. And then the last reason we heard was that maybe the defense already knows what`s on them. And again, without having looked at them, how could they possibly know that? So...

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. In addition to just-released videotape, secretly surveillance videotapes of the tot mom meeting with her family -- they`re grilling her about questions regarding little Caylee`s disappearance -- we now find out that there are hours and hours of tips compiled by the sheriff`s office -- they`ve put them all on CD, took them about 50 hours, and a thousand bucks worth of time and energy to do this -- waiting for the defense to come pick them up, if they want to follow up on these tips. And they`ve been sitting there all this time. Yet the defense continues to claim police are withholding evidence from them.

We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers, veteran defense attorney Jason Oshins joining us out of our New York bureau, Hugo Rodriguez out of Miami, and tonight, an exclusive and special guest joining us, Terence Lenamon. He is the former attorney for Casey Anthony. He is a death penalty attorney veteran. And let me tell you something, everybody. To be a death penalty lawyer, you`ve got to have a lot of trials under your belt. He argued against the death penalty for tot mom Casey Anthony. And just Friday night, we learned the state is not seeking the death penalty.

Straight out to Jason Oshins. Jason, if there are tips on these CDs that could show Caylee`s alive, according to the defense, why won`t they go pick them up? Does this suggest to you they know Caylee`s dead, so why bother to pick up the tips?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t think that, Nancy. I think it`s very expensive and time-consuming to mount a defense. They were preoccupied with the death penalty aspect...

GRACE: What?

OSHINS: ... and dealing with that. I think they`ve just got to get to it right now, and don`t let this be more of a public spectacle than it needs to be.

GRACE: Get to it. OK. You know what? That didn`t make any sense.

OSHINS: Well, it does, Nancy. Look...

GRACE: Because if you`re racing against the clock and you think your granddaughter is alive and there are tips sitting at the sheriff`s office you want to follow up on, why are you sitting on your thumb, to put it euphemistically, and not pick them up?

OSHINS: Nancy, I think the police and the authorities, if they thought they had anything that would be of aid to them, they would have let us all know about it in some way.

GRACE: Well, they have been letting them know. Isn`t it true, Kathi Belich with WFTV, that they are sending them repeated e-mail reminders, Hey, come pick up the tips. Again, Come pick up the tips.

BELICH: That`s right. Three in early November reminding them. At one point, Jose Baez`s office said he would be by on one particular Friday at 4:30 to pick them up. He didn`t show up, no explanation, no phone call. They`re still sitting there. As of tonight at 6:00 o`clock, they were still sitting there.

GRACE: I want to go to Terence Lenamon. He is a death penalty expert. He`s a trial court veteran and the former attorney for Casey Anthony. He cannot -- so don`t ask him in a phone call -- reveal any conversations he`s had with the tot mom.

But Mr. Lenamon, it looks bad that the defense isn`t even bothering to go pick up the tips.

TERENCE LENAMON, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER ATTORNEY: Well, I think this is a situation where the defense is overloaded with a lot of information. What you have to understand, Nancy, is that these kind of cases normally take years and years to develop. And it seems like things have been running on an expedited pattern right now with the defense and the state releasing all kinds of pages of documents, thousands of pages of documents, it`s my understanding. So it`s not unusual for these things to take a while. This is a case...

GRACE: Mr. Lenamon...

LENAMON: Go ahead, Nancy.

GRACE: ... I am very, very familiar with death penalty cases.

LENAMON: Absolutely.

GRACE: And they absolutely do not always take years and years to go to trial. And also, at the get-go, it was defense attorney Jose Baez screaming for his day in court. Well, he`s got it, January 5. And apparently, the defense is going to ask for a delay.

LENAMON: Well, my understanding is that the judge is actually going to be changed. Judge Strickland (ph) is not going to be the judge on January 5. I don`t know if they notified you about that.

GRACE: Yes.

LENAMON: But when you have a new judge taking over, the whole situation changes, depending on what the judge`s style -- as you know, having tried a number of cases that you`ve tried, you know that depending on the judge`s style is going to dictate how the calendar runs.

GRACE: Well, you know, Terence, I can already tell you know your way around the courtroom because now you have managed to successfully blame this on a new judge coming. And you know what? You do have a point. Different judges approach cases in different ways.

But Hugo Rodriguez, that doesn`t explain why the defense hasn`t moseyed on over to the sheriff`s office and picked up all these thousands of tips.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not Brady material. It`s not discovery. I think that they`re trying to do maybe what the police haven`t done. I can`t get excited about it, Nancy. It is not part of the discovery package. Hopefully, they`ll get to it. Hopefully, they`ll use it as part of their defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: We only have five minutes. What else do you want me to check on?

CASEY ANTHONY: I thought they were giving us extra time.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know. That`s only five minutes in this session.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know, and it`ll cut off when we have one minute left and then we`ll get our last minute. I`m fine.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I want you guys to know that. I`m eating to the best of my ability. I miss real food.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Where did you take Caylee to get her hair cut?

CASEY ANTHONY: I never took Caylee anywhere to get her hair cut. That`s why when I heard that, that was complete (DELETED). The only time Caylee`s gotten her hair cut has been at the house...

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: ... when you did it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know that. Who was your beautician?

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: No one colored my hair. I did my hair last.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: No one has touched my head since the first week of April, after my 21st birthday last year. That was the last person that cut my hair.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m just wondering where that came from.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, exactly. I`m wondering where that came from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s between your age and dad`s age so she`s...

CINDY ANTHONY: About 55?

CASEY ANTHONY: Roughly, yes.

CINDY ANTHONY: Have you ever heard her sister`s name? Not Zanny`s sister, her mom`s sister`s name, Zanny`s aunt`s name?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is it possible that she could be staying with her sister -- Zanny`s mom could be staying with Zanny`s aunt in Miami?

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s a possibility. I don`t know where exactly they are in Miami or who they`re staying with, but it`s a possibility.

CINDY ANTHONY: Does Christina sound familiar to you, or Sophina?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Here you hear the tot mom, Casey Anthony, even blaming her hair stylist. If you think back to the beginning of the investigation, recall a photo emerged of little Caylee apparently with a bruise on her face taken by a hair stylist. That was the reports we got. Here she`s saying, I haven`t been to the hair stylist. I haven`t had my hair colored, nothing. All this is a big fat lie. Well, that photo came from somewhere.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Beth in Virginia. Hi, Beth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just first want to say Merry Christmas to you and your beautiful family.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And...

GRACE: Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... I want to know if there is no real Zenaida Gonzalez baby-sitter, who`s been taking care of Caylee all of the time that she was supposedly with that baby-sitter?

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Where was the baby during all this time, just at various men`s apartments?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, that`s kind of the big mystery, Nancy. Some people are saying that she was staying with Casey at various men`s apartments, her current boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, her ex-boyfriend, Ricardo Morales. And some people are saying that she was already gone by that point.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is now searching for Caylee, originally posted the bond for the tot mom, came off that bond. What is your theory about all this time, who was keeping the little girl when the tot mom would say, She`s at the beach with the nanny, or she`s at Disney Land. Where was she, in the trunk with the chloroform?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The baby died the night of the 15th, early hours, probably around 1:30 on the 16th. That was after the big fight, where Cindy got physical with her because she had found out she was stealing from the grandmother`s account. The baby`s been dead since 1:30, 2:00 AM on the 16th, and therefore, everything else she says as to where she was is a figment of her imagination. It`s made up. It`s a lie. Nobody saw her after that time, starting with, like I say, 1:30, 2:00 o`clock in the morning of the 16th. She`s been dead ever since.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the beginning. Natisha, even before the date that Padilla is giving -- and his theory is not far-fetched. That`s a theory a lot of people believe. Even before then, though, the little girl had to be staying with somebody. Who was she staying with? There is no nanny.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, she did stay with a friend of Casey`s a while ago, a friend of hers, but then she had stopped staying with her. But no, there was never a nanny. So they believe that she was with Casey all that time.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Terence Lenamon. Everyone, Lenamon was on this case as a death penalty expert. He has tried multiple death penalty cases. He`s had varied results. He`s won some, he`s lost some, but he`s not afraid to get in there and try a case.

Mr. Lenamon, you argued against the death penalty. You argued mitigating circumstances. What were they?

LENAMON: There was numerous mitigating circumstances that we presented to Mr. Lamar (ph), who`s the state attorney in Orange County. Among those is some of the facts that you actually have seen that come out -- had come out on your show and in the newspaper about her personality, her behavior, her sleeplessness, her reactions...

GRACE: Are you trying to say she`s insane?

LENAMON: Absolutely not insane. Insanity is not an issue in this case. My job is to present to Mr. Lamar`s office the facts and circumstances as they exist in a light most favorable to him, should she get convicted. And that`s the approach I used.

GRACE: Mrs. Lenamon -- Mr. Lenamon, have you seen the photos of tot mom dancing in a mini-skirt and a push-up bra in the days after little Caylee -- Casey -- after little Caylee went missing? It hardly suggests that she`s having a depression or any type of a mental illness.

LENAMON: Well, I disagree with you, Nancy. I think if you`re familiar with bipolar disorder...

GRACE: I`m very familiar.

LENAMON: ... mania is symptomatic of someone who is not sleeping, who`s acting irrationally, who`s spending a lot of money, and whose brain thought process is different from ours. And I think that that could explain some of the things that were going on in Miss Anthony`s world at this time.

GRACE: Interesting because those are the symptoms of bipolar.

To Jason Oshins, defense attorney. Bipolar is in no way -- while Lenamon is correct, she exhibits some of those characteristics, she`s never been diagnosed as bipolar. Bipolar is not a mental defect defense and it is not insanity. Fifty percent of the people in Manhattan claim they`re bipolar.

OSHINS: It`s probably true.

GRACE: And it`s probably true! Can you blame them?

OSHINS: No, I don`t. But again, I don`t think that`s really, you know, the issue we`re talking about. We`re narrowing it down to mitigating circumstances on a death sentence. I think that`s really where the focus is. I don`t think it was in the state`s interest to try this as a death penalty case.

GRACE: Not what I asked you, but thank you for the sermon...

OSHINS: You`re welcome.

GRACE: ... Pastor Oshins.

Out to the lines. Bonnie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m glad to get through finally.

GRACE: And I`m glad to hear from you finally. I`ve been waiting to talk to you.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, when Cindy was asking Casey last week if Zenaida had baby-sat anyone else, Casey mentioned Jeff. And Cindy said, Oh, she babysat Anabelle (ph), and Casey said yes. My question is, did the police question this Jeff or an Anabelle?

GRACE: Oh, yes, they did. You`re referring to Jeff Hopkins. They did question him. Zanny the nanny never baby-sat for Anabelle. In fact, he had never heard of Zenaida Gonzalez.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Listen, people like Tara (ph), people like Jesse (ph), who are maybe trying to help, even Christina, God bless her, don`t know what the hell they`re talking about. They may have talked to me within the last few months or seen me within the last, oh, I don`t know, year, and will say, Oh, yes, this was during this such-and-such time, because they`re trying to help me. Well, Mom, this is why stuff`s getting misconstrued or just getting put in my mouth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Everybody`s lying but her, according to the tot mom, Casey Anthony. Just released, a grainy surveillance video secretly recorded from behind bars.

To Dr. Belisa Vranich, psychologist in New York City. Dr. Vranich, thank you for being with us. Isn`t it a big red flag, a red bell of alarm when you believe everybody is out to get you, everybody is lying on you and you`re the only one telling the truth?

BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: She`s trying to take the focus off herself. And she said it herself, which is, Focus on Caylee, which means, Take the focus off me. It`s very clear.

GRACE: And what do you make of her demeanor?

VRANICH: Her demeanor is really not of a mom who`s devastated. Her child has been gone now, what, six months? This is not a devastated mom. This is a defiant adolescent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You know, I just had a little analogy of our family.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Uh-huh.

G. ANTHONY: Think of me as the fountain. Think of dad. The next finger, you know, your index finger is your mom. You know, she likes to point, just like Caylee.

C. ANTHONY: Yes, but.

G. ANTHONY: And the middle finger is -- OK, the middle finger (INAUDIBLE). I`m looking at size of the family. You know, and the next finger after that is going to be Lee, that`s going to be you, and then finally, the little pinky, that`s Caylee.

So think of that -- think of your hand and say, this is us. This is the family that loves each other and cares, and needs to be together. And -- we`re missing two fingers. As silly as this sounds, as silly as it sounds.

C. ANTHONY: I know.

G. ANTHONY: But we have you here, we know you`re here, but it`s not the same.

C. ANTHONY: I know it`s not the same. It`s just like I have you guys with me, but it`s not the same.

I guess a certain lady that came forward on the news, her -- son were at the airport, said they saw Caylee, spoke to Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Right. And she said her name was Caylee Marie Anthony.

C. ANTHONY: Do you have any more information on that?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes. But, again, the sheriff`s department is telling us they`re fully investigating that.

C. ANTHONY: Well, I want someone outside of the sheriff`s department looking into these things. I mean, I want Lee to look into stuff. I want you guys to look into stuff, I want the state to look into stuff. I don`t -- I just want.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re looking -- we`re trying to request those videotapes from the Orlando airport.

C. ANTHONY: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: I was with Jose today when he requested that.

C. ANTHONY: OK. Have you spoken to her yourself?

CINDY ANTHONY: Oh, she contacted me. She calls me every day.

C. ANTHONY: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: Three or four times a day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony insist there is existing video that will prove little Caylee is alive.

To Kathi Belich with WFTV, what is the video that they are seeking to obtain?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: From what I understand, they`re trying to get videos from a mall here in Orlando, from an auto shop store, and possibly some other businesses where they say people have claimed that they have seen Caylee alive.

Investigators are not interested in those videotapes, but they`ve also called the businesses, saying we don`t want them, but we also don`t want to stop you from releasing them to the Anthonys, but I think the Anthonys are having trouble still getting those videos from those businesses. And I think they`re trying to move forward with subpoenas.

As of the end of today, we saw nothing filed with the Orange County Clerk of Courts as far as getting any subpoenas, but that`s what the defense claims they`re going to do.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Jason Oshins, New York, Hugo Rodriguez, Miami. And exclusively joining us tonight, Terence Lenamon, veteran death penalty defense lawyer, who was on the Anthony defense team, death penalty off the table now.

You know, Hugo, if you could, just give me a straight answer on this, all right? Now, for all of the years that I prosecuted, all the defense has to do is get a form subpoena, you fill in the indictment number, and you write what you need.

It`s a subpoena duces tecum for a document or a saying and you give it to the business, and they give you the video. What`s the problem?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: No problem. You`re correct. I have -- maybe Terry can answer this question. I don`t know if she`s been found indigent for costs, hence, it has to be requested through the court.

I don`t know the answer. But you`re correct. They can issue a subpoena to any third party. Then it can be litigated either by the custodian of record, or if the state wants to come in and object. But they can issue their own subpoenas.

GRACE: What about it, Terrence?

TERENCE LENAMON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY, ARGUED AGAINST DEATH: Well, Nancy, actually I know Georgia is a little different than Florida. In Florida, in criminal cases, you have to get permission from the court, in state court.

I know Hugo does a lot of federal court, but in state court, you have to get permission from the court to issue a subpoena duces tecum, so that`s probably the procedure they`re following. And.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Have they asked the court for permission?

LENAMON: I can`t answer that. You know, my involvement has been specifically dealing with Mr. Lamar`s office on the issue of the death penalty, and I`m very grateful that he decided not to seek the death penalty. But I haven`t been involved with Mr. Baez in that aspect of the case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I want to be able to reach out and hug you and give you the -- you know, the big papa Joe hug. But, you know, we`ve got to get that little girl back any way we can. And we`re doing everything we can.

C. ANTHONY: My only concern -- I gave Lee a statement. I want him to speak to whoever in the media, give them a statement specifically from me. He is going to give them an exact quote. She is my only concern. Next to Caylee, it`s you guys.

CINDY ANTHONY: How about Jesse? He has been real close. Is there anything you want me to tell Jesse?

C. ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that wholeheartedly, and as calmly as possible.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now. And I even told Lee that. Lee is going to investigate a few people for me. I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is there any particular day, for sure, that you know we need to track this back to?

C. ANTHONY: As far as what, mom? What specifically?

CINDY ANTHONY: The last day you saw Caylee.

C. ANTHONY: The 16th.

CINDY ANTHONY: Now, I thought Tara said her and Caylee spoke on the phone on the -- that week.

C. ANTHONY: Tara?

CINDY ANTHONY: Tara from Michigan.

C. ANTHONY: You mean Mark`s psycho ex-wife Tara.

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

C. ANTHONY: She has not even spoken to me since probably the end of May. At least.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So there you hear even more people that the tot mom doesn`t trust. They`re all psycho, they`re all lying about her.

Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, I just heard Terence Lenamon explain to me that the procedure is pretty much the same in a lot of jurisdictions. But in Florida, you have to get the OK from the judge to issue that subpoena.

So has the defense gone to the judge and said, we need these videos to show Caylee`s alive?

BELICH: Not that we know of. I checked today with the clerk of courts. You know, I tried to find the judge. The judge`s courtroom was dark. The spokesman for the court administration here in Orange County has said she knows nothing about this.

I suppose he could have gone -- I don`t even know if he had to go to the same judge that`s been handling this case. But there is no indication.

GRACE: So bottom line, there`s nothing in the record that any of these videos have been requested that the Anthonys insist will prove Caylee is alive. OK.

I want to go back to Terence Lenamon. Terrence, what can you tell me -- you mentioned the judges have changed. Why? And who is the new judge?

LENAMON: Yes, it`s not unusual for judges to rotate out from criminal to civil and vice versa, depending on what jurisdiction it is. In Orange County, my understanding is that they -- rotate out into different branches from civil to criminal.

I`m not familiar with the name of the new judge. Again, I know that Strickland was leaving. I know that, because I`ve had a conversation with the prosecutor and Mr. Baez about this when I was first brought in on the case.

So all of the parties are aware that this is going to happen. It`s just the normal procedure that is followed.

GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies," here`s the deal, Lucich. They claim these businesses, malls, et cetera, have video that will show Caylee on the video. They haven`t gone to the court to get the OK on the subpoenas, to get the video.

It`s very, very simple procedure. You and I know that most businesses tape over -- over after about seven days, max. So the fact that they`re not going to get the video, what are they trying to do, set it up for trial? And claim, here`s little Caylee? But we don`t have the video?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": They have so many sightings of this little girl out in California, down in Florida, out in Oklahoma. The only way this little girl could be in all that places in such a short amount of time is if Captain Kirk himself was beaming her around from the deck of the Star Ship Enterprise.

That`s the absolute only way. Bombshell. Guess what? This little girl is not alive, and they are just all about tactics. This is not about -- this is not about sightings. It`s not sightings at all.

GRACE: And very quickly, to Dr. Michael Bell, out of Palm Beach, he`s the chief medical examiner there. A search is going to be led by Leonard Padilla, very soon, for little Caylee. If her remains were found, what would a volunteer find at this time?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: At this time, next to nothing. Maybe some bones, some -- some soft tissue, not much else.

GRACE: And back to Natisha Lance, our producer on the case. I understand the Anthonys are headed to California. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They`re going there to do an interview, and also while they are there, they`re planning to follow up on some tips that have come in there as far back as July.

They said that some of these tips are put on the back burner and now they`re going to investigate them fully once they get out there.

GRACE: And to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, are these alleged sightings of Caylee?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Are they are alleged sightings of Caylee, and they`re going to investigate those when they go out there to do a media blitz. But they won`t give us any information. Their spokesman says that they`re going to wait until they get more information, until they can find -- determine its credibility on their own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Have you spoken with the psychologist or psychiatrist yet?

C. ANTHONY: Every single day.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: That`s who I was talking to when I was sitting at the table.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you able to really speak with her, or is that recorded?

C. ANTHONY: No, it`s not recorded.

CINDY ANTHONY: So do you feel like you can open up to her?

C. ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Understood.

C. ANTHONY: We`ve talked about how I feel about things, but I`m not opening up to someone that I don`t know. The only person that I have would be Jose. I mean, for obvious reasons. He`s someone that I -- I know that I need to trust. That I`ve started to trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police have just released grainy surveillance video showing missing mom Nadia Kersh the last time she was seen. In the video Nadia is seen leaving her job at a local market and is on her way to pick up her 1-year-old son from daycare. Nadia never made it to the daycare center.

Police later found her car abandoned, along with her purse which was found in a wooded area close by. Investigators are anxiously awaiting test results from the FBI lab in Quantico, hoping that forensic testing for physical evidence found in Nadia`s car can lead to an arrest in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the last images we have of 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. You`re watching the young mom leave on her lunch break from Tria market last Monday, just after 1:00. Kersh hasn`t been seen since. Police have recovered her car in west Birmingham, her purse at a nearby railroad tracks.

Detectives have identified a 26-year-old male suspect from Irondale. So far, there is not enough evidence to charge him. Investigators have shifted off what they are calling a good deal of physical evidence to the FBI crime lab in Quantico for processing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The little boy left in daycare. His mommy never came to pick him up. This is unlike anything Nadia Kersh has ever done before. The search still on for the 23-year-old out of Birmingham, Alabama.

To Paul Finebaum from WJOX AM 690, Paul, a suspect? what happened? What -- why did he get let loose?

PAUL FINEBAUM, TALK SHOW HOST, WJOX AM 690: That`s a great question, Nancy. And right now, everyone here is -- they`re anxiously awaiting the DNA evidence from the FBI lab in Quantico. That`s one thing that`s everyone just.

GRACE: What DNA evidence?

FINEBAUM: And that`s another thing as well and this is more psychological. Beth Holloway, Natalie`s mom, has joined the search and that has really embolden a lot of people here.

GRACE: You are seeing video of Nadia`s graduation from Victory Christian Academy in Florida.

To Nancy Kersh, a special guest joining us tonight. This is Nadia`s mother.

Miss Kersh, what are they talking about? A suspect was apprehended and released?

NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING MOM, NADIA KERSH: Yes. They didn`t have enough evidence to hold him at the time. But as the days go by, there`s more and more forensic evidence coming in, and they`re slowly building that puzzle to really have a strong case, so that they will be able to charge the suspect.

GRACE: Let me ask you, Miss Kersh, what DNA evidence, to what DNA evidence are they referring?

KERSH: From what I understand, there`s -- I don`t know exactly from where it is from. But I understand that there are trace amounts of DNA evidence that they did send up to the FBI.

GRACE: They must have been found in the car.

KERSH: It may have been found in the car.

GRACE: With me is the mother of Nadia Kersh. She left her little boy in daycare, went to work. She never picked him up.

Miss Kersh, tell the viewers who are unfamiliar with the story what happened.

KERSH: Nadia is a very dedicated worker, and she is a very dedicated mom. The pictures that she sent me over time, and the last batch of pictures she sent me were back in May, when we were still in Guam.

And each of those photos -- and there were, oh, gosh, 15, 16 of them, there were photos of her and our grandson. And as we were looking through those to try to have a picture of just Nadia, I said Nadia always had her son with her.

And so she was a dedicated mom. She brought him everywhere. And her friends will attest to that, as well. She just.

GRACE: Where is the little boy tonight?

KERSH: He`s still with a very close friend of Nadia`s. We`re not in a position yet to take him, because we live out of state, we have to meet Alabama requirements, and that includes background checks, home study, that kind of thing.

GRACE: Right. Right.

KERSH: So that takes a while. They said normally, that`s..

GRACE: With me.

KERSH: Go ahead.

GRACE: With me is Nadia`s mother, everyone.

Nadia, 23 years old, 5`3", about 115 pounds, chestnut hair, hazel eyes. Take a look. She never picked up her 1-year-old little boy from daycare. Newly-released surveillance video shows her leaving on her lunch break.

Let`s take a look at that again, Elizabeth. Her car was found abandoned, her purse found later on railroad tracks nearby. Evidence does suggest foul play. No sign of the 23-year-old girl.

I want to go back to John Lucich, former investigator, and author of "Cyber Lies." The family is considering bringing in their own private investigator, like you. What would that bring to the table? What could you do that say the police can`t do?

LUCICH: OK, well, first of all, I`m a former criminal investigator, not a private investigator. But I would say leave it up to the cops. The cops have a lot more resources available at their ability. It`s easier for them to get a subpoena, and guess what, if you don`t give that stuff over they come out and pick you up.

So they have a lot more bite to their, to their investigation. A private investigator may just fumble over everything. I would leave it at this early stages in the hands of the cops for right now.

GRACE: To Paul Finebaum with WJOX AM 690, where is the baby`s daddy? Who is he? Has he been ruled out? That`s always where police start their investigation.

FINEBAUM: They have not ruled him out. But they did -- but there`s a great mystery about who he really is. And I`m going to defer to the mother on that. But they picked up his boyfriend -- her boyfriend, or ex- boyfriend, I should say, Nancy.

He was released after investigation. And it`s totally confusing right now. Totally. On who the father is.

GRACE: To Nancy Kersh, who`s the father?

KERSH: I can`t add to anymore of his comments. They`re still trying to determine who that is. Nadia never shared that information.

GRACE: OK. Well, that is her right. I just wish we could rule him out. And why is it, Belisa Vranich, Dr. Vranich, psychologist, that police always start with boyfriends, biological fathers, husbands, as a possible perp?

BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: The statistics show that those are the men that usually will hurt women, is exactly what you said, the fathers of their children, boyfriends, paramours, fiances. That`s what the statistics show, unfortunately.

GRACE: To Donna in Missouri, hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is have they slowed the tape down of Nadia in the garage when she`s pulling out? It`s so fast you can`t see. But it seems to me as though someone might have been in the car.

GRACE: Excellent question.

To Nancy Kersh, the mother of Nadia, have you heard anything from police that someone was in the car?

KERSH: No, I haven`t.

GRACE: And I want to go to Dr. Michael Bell with Palm Beach County, he`s the chief medical examiner there. Officials still waiting for Quantico, the FBI lab, to finish processing evidence. How long does it take?

BELL: It could take weeks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the last images we have of 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. You`re watching the young mom leave on her lunch break from Tria market last Monday just after 1:00. Kersh hasn`t been seen since. Police have recovered her car in west Birmingham, her purse on a nearby railroad tracks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There is a $35,000 reward. The tip line, 205-332-6262.

To Pat in California, hi, Pat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I didn`t catch all of the previous caller`s question but I was wondering something similar. Did they -- do they have that surveillance camera trained on that area the entire day? And I wonder if they watched it from the time she arrived to work until that point, to see if possibly anyone entered her car if it were unlocked.

GRACE: To John Lucich, typically the surveillance cameras do not move. They are stationary. Wouldn`t you agree?

LUCICH: Yes, they do have pan tilting zoom. That means they have -- they`re operated by somebody. What they need to do is actually start going out and finding out how many video cameras they have in the city and then start taking a look at those to see if she went specific ways. I mean that -- that`s a good place to start.

GRACE: Back to Nancy Kersh, the mother of Nadia Kersh. Did police give you a ballpark estimate as to when the DNA would come back from Quantico?

KERSH: They did not. They -- what I understand, what I`ve been told is that they have submitted it and they have asked them to put it on the fast track.

GRACE: Do you plan to get the little boy when you have met all the requirements?

KERSH: Yes.

GRACE: Everyone, tip line, 205-332-6262. Please help us.

Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Tyler Picket, 28, Saratoga, Wyoming, killed Iraq. On a second tour. Awarded the Medal of Valor. Also served in Afghanistan.

Devoted to friends, dreamed of retiring to the Wyoming mountains. Leaves behind parents Ed and Sherry, widow Christie.

Tyler Pickett, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/08/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

O.J. Simpson Transferred to State Prison

Aired December 9, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Thirteen years to the day after the double murders in Brentwood, Hall-of-Famer turned murder suspect O.J. Simpson found guilty of armed robbery and kidnap after blasting into a casino hotel room with an armed posse, making off with over $100,000 in sports memorabilia, all caught on tape. After Simpson turns down a sweetheart plea deal for as little as three years, a judge finally brings down the hammer on O.J. Simpson, sentencing him to 33 years behind bars. He`ll do at least 9.
In the last hours, Simpson transported under armed guard to the Nevada state prison system. But is star treatment already kicking in at Simpson`s new house, the big house?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O.J. SIMPSON: I stand before you today sorry, somewhat confused.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NFL Hall of Famer and now convicted felon O.J. Simpson has officially begun serving his 33-year sentence for attempting to rob two memorabilia dealers at a Las Vegas casino. Hours ago, Simpson was transferred to state prison, where he will have to serve at least nine years before he`s even eligible for parole. Simpson is now at High Desert state prison, where he will undergo a 21-day inmate intake evaluation before he being assigned to a prison.

SIMPSON: In no way did I mean to hurt anybody, to steal anything from anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo!

And tonight, breaking news. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Details emerge of another alleged Caylee sighting, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony traveling from Orlando to Newport Beach, California. Was little Caylee spotted at a local restaurant with another family? And was it caught on video?

And tot mom`s lawyers go on national TV, claiming she can`t get a fair trial in her own home town. And after demanding swift justice, the lawyer now says he`s in no rush to go to court, this while the defense accuses police of withholding evidence. The reality is, the defense has failed to show up and retrieve hours of CDs compiling thousands of Caylee tips. Why? Why haven`t they shown up? Do they actually believe Caylee was murdered, and therefore all of these tips, thousands of tips, are useless?

And tonight, more of the bombshell video surveillance from behind bars, the tot mom`s personal visits with parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, private conversations revealing more of the tot mom`s web of lies. We hear it all in her own words, her attack on friends, claiming everybody`s lying but her, of course. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: She`s not going to hurt Caylee, is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: No. I told you, in my gut, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, Mom. I know she`s still OK. We`re going to get our little girl back and she`s going to be just as she was.

CINDY ANTHONY: Never let anybody (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: No. Trust me. I said the same thing. I`m going to be the crazy, overprotective mom at that point, but I don`t care. I think it`s well-deserved.

CINDY ANTHONY: You`ve always been a protective mommy.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, well, like I said, the crazy. I won`t let her out of my sight.

CINDY ANTHONY: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, you can get a real explanation from, that knows where she has been. It`s going to have to be because up to (ph) that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson heads to his new house, the big house.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recently convicted kidnapper O.J. Simpson has officially begun serving his sentence for armed robbery and kidnapping. Hours ago, Simpson was transferred to state prison. Simpson will undergo 21 days of inmate intake evaluations before he`s assigned to a southern Nevada jail to serve the remainder of his sentence.

SIMPSON: I wasn`t there to hurt anybody. I just wanted my personal things. And I realize I was stupid. I`m sorry. I didn`t mean to steal anything from anybody. And I didn`t know I was doing anything illegal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simpson will not be eligible for parole for at least nine years, and could serve the rest of his life behind bars, should he serve the maximum 33-year sentence.

SIMPSON: I forgave Mike. I yelled at him and I forgave him, just like I yelled at Bruce and Beardsley and I`ve forgiven them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also breaking today, four former Simpson co- defendants, who all agreed to plea deals and testified against Simpson at trial, received probation sentences, while Simpson could be spending the remainder of his life in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent for "In Session." I understand he was transported under armed guard. Where is he headed?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, he`s headed for Indian Springs, which is very close, 45 minutes from Las Vegas. So today, Nancy, while O.J. Simpson began to be processed within the Nevada state prison system, the other four co-defendants who became state witnesses were being sentenced by the judge in Las Vegas.

GRACE: Jean, what can you tell me about rumors, about reports that Simpson turned down a sweetheart plea deal as light as three years behind bars? On three years, he might have done a year, maybe.

CASAREZ: I can confirm that there was a plea deal. Yes, I can. I can`t confirm to you the minimum or the maximum, and there was a minimum or maximum, but it was turned down. And it was a situation where both co- defendants, C.J. Stewart and O.J. Simpson, both had to agree to the plea deal.

GRACE: Take a listen to Simpson in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIMPSON: Yes, your honor, I stand before you today sorry, somewhat confused. I feel like apologetic to the people of the state of Nevada. I`ve been coming to Nevada since 1959. I worked summer jobs here for my uncle in `60 and `61, and I`ve been coming here ever since and I`ve never gotten into any trouble. People have always been fine to me.

When I came here, I came here for a wedding. I didn`t come here to -- I didn`t come here to reclaim property. I was told it was here.

When he told me that Monday that the stuff was in Nevada, when he knew I was going to be in Nevada, I called my kids. I talked to my sisters. I called the Brown family and I told them I had a chance to get some of our property back, property that over the years, we`ve seen being sold on the Internet. We`ve seen pictures of ours that were stolen from our home going into the tabloids. We`ve called the police and asked what to do. They told us what to try to do. But you can never find out who was selling it.

And this was the first time I had an opportunity to catch the guys red-handed who had been stealing from my family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, somebody`s stealing from O.J. Simpson! It`s their fault! They set him up.

Art Harris, investigative journalist with Artharris.com, is he actually trying to tell the judge that all that Joe Montana and Pete Rose memorabilia belonged to who, his mother? What`s he trying to tell the judge?

ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, he sort of skips over, Nancy, what belonged to him and what allegedly was...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! This did not belong to him, number one. None of this stuff belonged to him.

HARRIS: That`s right. It belongs to the Goldmans, right. He was just trying to reclaim it under the radar so that he could deprive them of the court order giving it to them for the civil judgment of $33 million.

GRACE: Art Harris, what do you know about an alleged plea deal that was as low as three years behind bars? That would have been the sentence. On three years, Art -- you know the justice system -- he may have done one year.

HARRIS: He would have skated right out of there, Nancy. I don`t know the numbers. I know that Jean Casarez was accurate that there was an offer and that he did turn it down. Now, that is a guy who goes to Las Vegas and does not gamble on the right color.

GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Jean, I understand he`s going to be processed at a center. Everybody gets sent there, and from there, they`ll get shipped out to where they`ll be for their prison stay. Where do you believe he`ll end up?

CASAREZ: I think he may end up right where he`s going right now, which is High Desert. That`s southern Nevada. It`s medium security. Nancy, up in northern Nevada, which is actually where I am right now, is where you have the death row. You have maximum security. You have a different type of prisons here. I think he`s going to stay where he is right now, in southern Nevada.

GRACE: Jane, what can you tell me about the facility, High Desert?

CASAREZ: It`s about 3,000 beds. It`s all male. It is...

GRACE: We`re showing video of it...

CASAREZ: ... as I said, medium security.

GRACE: ... right now, Jean. We`re showing video of it right now.

CASAREZ: It is...

GRACE: Go ahead.

CASAREZ: And O.J. Simpson -- remember, he`s been in protective custody down in Clark County. He`s going to remain in protective custody. I think he will have a lot of people around him. But this is where he will be, at least for the next nine years.

GRACE: What do we know about amenities at that jail?

CASAREZ: It`s much better, I understand, than the Clark County detention center. When I was interviewing his co-defendant, C.J. Stewart, in jail several weeks ago, what I learned was that this facility, you have more freedom. You`re allowed out about four hours a day that you can be out and about, which is a much different situation than the jail in Las Vegas.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, the Goldman family attorney Jonathan Polak from Indianapolis. Also with us Gloria Allred, famed attorney, former Brown attorney, joining us out of LA. Trial lawyer Raymond Giudice out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. And high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Washington, Anne Bremner.

Anne, the co-defendants got probation. I guess you think it`s all so unfair to Simpson.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the fact of the matter is, it`s like in the parade of shame, Nancy. First in line gets the deal. But yes, it is because lookit, he`s 9 years to 33. And they got zero time. One, two, three, four zeros, probation.

GRACE: What about it, Gloria?

GLORIA ALLRED, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR BROWN FAMILY: Well, no, it`s very, very fair because, first of all, Simpson was the ringleader. Secondly, the defendants -- the other defendants who got probation today, Nancy, were offered a deal and were smart enough to take it. Simpson was offered a deal and didn`t take it, and now he has to pay the consequences. He gambled big-time and he lost in Las Vegas.

GRACE: Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Just because Simpson got a bad sentence doesn`t mean these guys shouldn`t get a fair sentence. I thought they got very reasonable sentences because they testified quickly and honestly.

GRACE: Jonathan?

JONATHAN POLAK, GOLDMAN FAMILY ATTORNEY: It`s fantastic. The fact that he`s probably breathed the last free air that he will ever breathe again is tremendously satisfying to all those who`ve worked on the Goldmans` behalf.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Nevada court judge has sentenced four of O.J. Simpson`s former co-defendants to probation. That ruling handed down today. Under a plea deal to avoid any prison time, the four testified against Simpson. Two of the men also admitted bringing guns into the hotel room at the Palace Station about a year-and-a-half ago, September `07, in a confrontation with two sports memorabilia dealers. Simpson still maintains he only wanted to retrieve personal items he claims were stolen from him years ago.

SIMPSON: I didn`t want to steal anything from anybody. I don`t think anybody there said I wanted anybody else`s stuff, just my own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: O.J. Simpson finally heading to jail after a judge brings down the hammer, Simpson given 33 years behind bars. He`ll probably do about nine. And today, he is transported under armed guards to High Desert medium security facility.

Out to a special guest joining us tonight, Kato Kaelin, everyone`s favorite house guest. He was a witness at Simpson`s initial murder trial. He`s host of "National Lampoon" and is now touring with -- what`s the name of it?

KATO KAELIN, WITNESS AT MURDER TRIAL: Nancy, it`s called "The Weenie Man-O-Logs."

GRACE: OK.

KAELIN: Got you tickets.

GRACE: Thank you, Mr. Kaelin.

KAELIN: Sure.

GRACE: Do you think the plea deals today -- the co-defendants get straight probation, he gets 33 years blind bars, he`ll only do about nine - - is fair?

KAELIN: Well, I think for O.J., he`s thinking right now it`s going to ruin his whole prison fantasy league. You know, he`s hoping that he had someone there that he could -- you know, someone -- you know, they sold him out, basically. They got the great deal. And to know that O.J. got a plea deal and...

GRACE: He could have taken a plea deal.

KAELIN: I`m saying to know that -- is that just another act of stupidity? I mean, this is something that either Yale Galanter made the call, his lawyer, or it was O.J., but how you...

GRACE: No, honey! Listen...

KAELIN: Yes. OK.

GRACE: ... you know nobody is telling Simpson what to do. He`s telling Galanter, which is very difficult for a good defense attorney when their client will not do what you advise them what to do. But listen, Kaelin, you`re the one that knows him. You lived right up under him for all that time. When he`s behind bars, is he going to be just another idiot, or will he somehow become king of the idiots?

KAELIN: Well, first of all, I got to say, I knew Nicole much better, and the kids, of course. You know that. It was Justin and Sydney I was much closer to. You know, they named the dog Kato after me. I knew...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, fine. I`m glad you made that clarification.

KAELIN: I had to because you always say that. But...

GRACE: So you`re closer to...

KAELIN: I think he`s definitely going to -- I definitely know he`s going to make friends in prison immediately because birds of a feather, you know, flock together. And he`s going to be with other criminals, so he`ll definitely make friends right away. And I understand that he`s already buying Snickers bars for them, to make friends with them. Is this true?

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: That`s what the reports are saying. And Gabriel Grosso (ph), one of the attorneys, I believe, has said on the record that he is using the money that he`s getting that others are giving to him through the commissary and the jail and now probably prison to buy Snickers bars for the other prisoners.

GRACE: OK, you know what? Fine. I`d be mad if he didn`t, Jean. I don`t care who he buys a candy bar for. That`s not a felony. What is a felony is blasting into a casino room at gunpoint. And of course, I didn`t mention the two dead people in the front yard many years ago.

Out to the lines. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, darling. My question is -- a statement -- is he`s going to make it just fine in prison. A few days, maybe a couple of weeks, everybody`s going to want to be his best buddy, and then it`s going to be inmate Simpson from there on out. And he might as well get used to it.

GRACE: Question? Do you have a question, Sheeba?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I mean, is everybody really worried about how he`s going to adjust to jail...

GRACE: Good question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and make friends?

GRACE: Everybody, we`re seeing a split screen of the infamous Bronco chase, where Simpson and his friend, Cowlings, led police on a wild goose chase. Simpson was holding himself hostage at gunpoint the entire way. Remember that, Art Harris?

HARRIS: You know, Nancy, 17 minutes of the most watched TV in history. He did not shoot himself. He had $10,000 in his pocket, a passport, and was headed to Mexico, supposedly. Didn`t quite make it, surrendered himself, and the rest is history. You`ve got to...

GRACE: Now, if that`s not an innocent man, I don`t know who is, Gloria Allred.

ALLRED: Yes, not innocent. As a matter of fact, I think one of the ways he got out of being -- being convicted in the murder case was that he didn`t testify. But he did testify in the civil case. So let`s remember the jury in the civil case did find that he was liable for the deaths of Ron and Nicole, may they rest in peace. That`s why they awarded a multi- million-dollar judgment against him.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice and Anne Bremner. You know, Raymond, very often, we hear about so-called jailhouse justice, where other inmates take on the role of Lady Justice -- for instance, in the double murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Simpson. Do you know of a single case -- I can only think of two -- where that ever happened?

GIUDICE: You know, Nancy, that tends to happen with child molestation and child abuse cases, where there seems to be some code of honor amongst even the most vile criminals. I really don`t think that`s going to be a problem for O.J. I really think he is going to make a lot of friends, and I don`t think it`s just going to be amongst the inmates. I`ll bet that if there`s ever a problem on him having some contraband, it`ll be traced back potentially to one of the workers at the prison or one of the marshals or sheriffs there.

GRACE: Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: There was the case of Jeffrey Dahmer, of course, but...

GRACE: That was one of the two, that one and one of the Catholic priests...

BREMNER: Exactly.

GRACE: ... that met up with one of the people he allegedly molested behind bars, and that was the end of him. Those are the only two I know of.

BREMNER: I agree with you, Nancy. But you know, the thing is, there`s three things in life that are certain, death, taxes and karma, and I think he`s had his karma in the conviction in this case.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Denise in Georgia. Hi, Denise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to finally get a chance to talk to you.

GRACE: Well, likewise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you really think that the sad story that O.J. Simpson told the judge about supposedly getting his, quote, "family stuff" back would greatly influence her in any way, or do you think that was just a sad sack story to try to get off?

GRACE: Yes, I think it influenced her, Denise in Georgia. I think it made her mad as a hornet and she brought down the hammer. Also, let me clue everybody in. Very often, when the judge goes on the bench, they already know what the sentence is going to be. They`ve looked at all the evidence. They`ve listened to everybody. Would you agree, Jonathan?

POLAK: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that judge, after, you know, keeping up with the trial and the way she ran that courtroom, the way in which she kept the witnesses in line, and frankly, the way she kept the lawyers in line, she had that courtroom under control. She wasn`t going to let him get out of control. But that speech that he gave, it wasn`t informative, it was pathetic.

GRACE: And back to Kato Kaelin, witness at the original double murder trial. What is it about Simpson, Mr. Kaelin, that makes everybody, from inmates to wardens, want to be his friend? Are they just ignoring the two dead bodies in the front yard?

KAELIN: You know what? He`s got some celebrity. They probably saw him in some of these movies, and they think, Oh, this is a celebrity and I`m going to become his friend. You know, Nancy, another thing is I think O.J. -- if he would have gotten off from this robbery trial, it wouldn`t have mattered. He`s so narcissistic, I think he would have robbed a year later somebody else. He would have been in another trial. He keeps wanting to do the wrong thing. But they caught him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: The time that he is not out causing havoc and reminding us of the pain that he caused us 14 years ago is an amazing feeling and to watch him sit there in shackles, to watch him walk back through that door -- twice in our lifetime, he`s walked out the same door as our family, and it was nice to see him walk back into his door and his jail cell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. You know, he had it all, Lauren. He had money, a home, a retirement fund, a hot-looking girlfriend, plenty of money to buy dope. Why did he have to go do this?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Because he was full of hubris and narcissism and pushed the envelope. And the rules don`t apply to him. He does what he wants and he`s able to negotiate his way around people, getting them to do stuff with him. I mean, this is what this guy has done historically. No reason to think it`s going to stop in prison, either.

GRACE: And to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Is the district attorney releasing the property? Explain.

CASAREZ: Yes, he is. The memorabilia, the property that was the crux of this entire case, the DA is releasing it. So now there`s an issue. The Goldmans believe that that property is due to belong to them. Bruce Fromong, who physically had the property in Las Vegas, he believes the property belongs to him. So there`s going to be an issue now between those two parties.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: You have to keep your strength as much as you can.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: You`re doing so great.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) when she comes home and then you`re going to need us when you get home.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll be fine. I`m fine now because I have you guys. I have you guys, even if it`s not in physical form at the moment. I have your love and support. I have everything that I.

CINDY ANTHONY: It doesn`t (INAUDIBLE).

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to need all of us. So we all need to be strong and you need to take care of yourself. I was just telling dad, like I told Lee, you need to eat, you need to sleep. You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not going to hurt her, is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: No. I told you, in my gut, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, mom. I know she`s still OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: There you see the tot mom on recorded surveillance video from behind bars in personal meetings with her family, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, brother Lee.

Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Radio 1150. Mark, her attorney goes on national TV this morning and declares she is 100 percent not guilty. I haven`t heard that phrase since Simpson stood in front of a judge in double murder and said that. Bad choice of words.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, but there is no Ford Bronco involved in this chase right here.

GRACE: Not yet, anyway.

WILLIAMS: Yes, Jose Baez, her attorney, went on the "Today" show with Matt Lauer this morning proclaiming that Casey is 100 percent innocent, saying that Caylee is still alive and well, and telling all of us that we really haven`t heard all of the story yet and we can`t make a judgment in this story, because we really don`t know what we`re all talking about.

He addressed the issue of a change of venue with Mr. Lauer. He says he`s hoping to find an impartial jury here in the Orange County, Orlando area. However, he has his assistants out researching other media markets across the state, maybe shopping around for a possible change of venue, maybe a more impartial jury than what he would find here.

And, of course, the media blitz continues. Cindy and George Anthony on the West Coast, a huge media blitz this weekend.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. Gloria Allred, Raymond Giudice, Anne Bremner, joining us. Let`s talk about the possible change of venue, very quickly, before we go here, more of those jailhouse and recorded videotaped statements.

To Gloria Allred, he has not moved for a change of venue. Why is he sitting on his thumb? He`s going to wait until the morning of trial?

GLORIA ALLRED, CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, I think he better do it in a timely way. And the real question is, is there going to be any other place where there`s not been national coverage of this? I think -- I mean, there are millions of people that watch NANCY GRACE and watch other shows, as well.

And I think it will be hard for him to find another place. But the point is, you know, he`s going to have to show that he can`t get a fair trial where he is. And I think that`s going to be difficult. It`s always an uphill burden to show that the jury.

GRACE: Right.

ALLRED: . can`t be fair and impartial.

GRACE: Well, Anne Bremner, we know -- you know this is a state case, it`s going to have to be held within Florida. What do you make of the defense attorney going on national TV and outlining the defense strategies?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I -- he should have said yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. I mean he should not go out and say 100 percent innocent in a case that`s this problematic.

He needs to go out and move for a change of venue and deal with the defense on the facts that he has, but to come out and do an O.J. Simpson, 100 percent, 110 percent not guilty, I think, was a huge mistake.

GRACE: And you know, Ray, I`m going to play it for you right now, but he seemed to waiver on whether he was actually going forward on January 5. He kept saying, I want to be totally prepared, but yet he wanted to go forward on January 5.

Why is he revealing strategy?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think he knows what his strategy is. I`m going to be honest with you. Dr. Kobilinsky, the other night, says he hasn`t even reviewed the scientific evidence. We don`t have a change of venue motion even filed, let alone thought out yet. And I -- I think that the.

GRACE: You know what, Ray? You know.

GIUDICE: Yes, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s just -- let lawyers just come clean.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: . with the viewers right now. It`s all on the computer. It`s not like you`ve got to go camp out in the law library, Ray, to do a change of venue motion.

GIUDICE: No.

GRACE: A change of venue motion is one page.

GIUDICE: That`s right. And remember just.

GRACE: You push a button, the computer spits it out, and you go file it.

GIUDICE: Right. You can hand write it. And just to correct Mr. Williams, he`s not going to be shopping for a venue, the judges find a better venue. That`s not something a defense lawyer gets to pick. The defense lawyer has some input into that, but that`s not done by the defense lawyer.

GRACE: That doesn`t mean Baez can`t window shop, Ray Giudice.

GIUDICE: Yes, he has input.

GRACE: Take a listen..

GIUDICE: And he should look for other jurisdictions.

GRACE: Take a listen to Baez.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: She is innocent. Absolutely, 100 percent innocent, and we`ll have our day in court, we`ll be able to tell everyone the full story, not just a fraction of it, where people have been assuming the worst, and quite frankly, you can`t judge someone`s life based on a fraction of a story.

Currently right now, what we`re doing is doing the research in the different areas, different media markets to see exactly where is the best place to see if we can possibly try this case. That we should be submitting to the court shortly.

We believe that Caylee is alive. And what we want to do -- as her attorney, I have a responsibility to Casey. And that is to do the best job possible. So it`s not an issue of rushing to get a trial just because we expect a body to be found.

MATT LAUER, HOST, TODAY SHOW: So will you delay the trial?

BAEZ: Well, that`s not something we`re willing to do either. My client is sitting in jail, she wants to clear her name. She -- she wants her day in court, and we wanted to have our day in court. So really, it`s all about getting the job done right, going in -- going into trial prepared. And that`s the key goal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So bottom line, he doesn`t know if he`s asking for a continuance or not. That`s Baez on NBC`s "Today" show, adamant, Caylee is still alive.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is continuing to search for Caylee, the defense attorney keeps talking about how you`ve only seen snippets of her story, as if somebody has held her back.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn`t police and authorities spend hours and hours with her, her own family, hours and hours, trying to get her to tell the whole story, and it never happened?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, even when we were back there, and now that everything has been released, there`s not much of her story for a 30-day period there that the public doesn`t know and understand.

And Jose is obviously banking on the situation that if you can put a reasonable doubt before a jury, and get them to not believe, at least with one jury member, and that`s what he`s playing for, that`s what Cindy and George are doing right now. They`re crisscrossing the country in order to get reasonable doubt, and maybe, just maybe he can -- he`s got rid of the murder case on the first degree, now he`s trying to get maybe accidental death, or reckless death or something to that effect.

But everybody knows when she died and -- the 30 days is not a secret anymore. And don`t be surprised -- don`t be surprised if Orange County or the FBI don`t drop it on us here that they`ve got the body somewhere.

GRACE: Very quickly, we`re taking your calls live, and I`m about to play you more of this recorded jailhouse videotape of tot mom with her parents. But quickly, to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay Criminal College of Justice. He is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Today, Baez seemed to waffle back and forth, and back and forth, about whether you`re going to trial January 5. Have you reviewed the evidence yet, Kobi?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, let me first say that when I said the trial would be delayed, that was my own opinion based upon experience with high-profile cases.

GRACE: Sure.

KOBILINSKY: That was not Mr. Baez`s determination.

GRACE: Right.

KOBILINSKY: Now, your question again?

GRACE: Have you seen the evidence? Have you reviewed it?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I mean, I`ve certainly reviewed a great deal of evidence. But I can`t really.

GRACE: You`ve seen the evidence. You`ve seen the evidence.

KOBILINSKY: I`ve seen written reports, just as you have.

GRACE: Well, no, no, no. That`s not what I asked you, Dr. Kobilinsky. I asked you, have you traveled and viewed the evidence? Have you seen the car?

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I.

GRACE: Have you seen the hair?

KOBILINSKY: I have not. But I am also not at liberty to discuss everything that I have seen and discussed with the attorney.

GRACE: Take a listen to tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I have not spoken with Tara in well over two months.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. She said that she had a 13-minute conversation -- no, no, no, not 13. That was someone else. That she had over an hour conversation with you. She was having issues.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, exactly, like two months ago. I haven`t talked to her since then.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: You can check the number on my call records.

CINDY ANTHONY: Don`t get upset. I`m just saying.

CASEY ANTHONY: No. I`m -- I`m just telling you, she`s.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s saying that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know what she is saying.

CINDY ANTHONY: That you spoke to each other. OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: The babies never spoke to each other. I never even put Caylee on the phone. Don`t listen, mom.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, Casey.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not getting mad at you.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, we have to find her before her third birthday.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I know.

CINDY ANTHONY: That`s coming up fast.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know, we have a couple of weeks.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute, let alone.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute. I want -- I want her to be found, whether I`m still stuck in here or not. I don`t care.

CINDY ANTHONY: I think once she`s found then you can tell everybody what you know. And you`ll be out -- you`ll be released. Don`t you think?

CASEY ANTHONY: Potentially? I don`t know. Yuri has it set in his mind that I`ve done something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, he thinks -- he thinks you guys did something to Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, can you hold on for a second?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I want to openly thank not only our family, but our friends and the community.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: For, you know, their unconditional love and support.

L. ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I want to thank, obviously, all the charities that are donating their time and their efforts, and their resources to help us. I want everyone to keep Caylee and our family in their prayers, and if there`s anyone that has any information, please to come forward without haste.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Radio, 1150. Mark, what can you tell me about this most recent alleged sighting of Caylee causing grandparents George and Cindy to travel across the country from Orlando to California?

WILLIAMS: Well, it happened in California on November 21st. Two individuals at a restaurant in Crystal Cove, which is near Newport Beach said that they thought they saw a girl that looked a lot like Caylee. They have sworn affidavits, signed sworn affidavits to that effect.

A check with the restaurant out there said we have security cameras, but our videotape doesn`t go back that far. Police out there say they`re looking into it, but they really can`t find any other witnesses. So these two folks who have signed the sworn affidavit have given their information to the George and Cindy Anthony Web site.

GRACE: What more can you tell me, Natisha Lance?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Mark is absolutely right. I spoke to that restaurant today, they said that they -- they are looking into it, they have had everyone from their staff, nobody has said that they saw this little girl.

We also spoke to the police department out there. They said, yes, someone did come forward. However, at the time that they came forward, it was so long after this initial sighting happened that they weren`t really able to do much to follow up on that -- follow up on it.

GRACE: Can you tell me about the family that she was allegedly seen with, Natisha?

LANCE: The family she was allegedly seen with was a Hispanic family. They`re saying that Caylee -- this little girl was a white girl, not Hispanic at all, and they said that they were there at about 7:30 in the evening, having dinner. And that`s all that we know at this point.

GRACE: To Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers with the Nutley New Jersey Police Department, former member of the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force.

Detective, thank you for being with us. What do you make of this alleged sighting?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY N.J. P.D. FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, you know, there are a lot of sightings when there is a lot of high-profile cases. But I can tell you this. That the police probably gathered enough evidence that they need in order to put the pieces of that story we`re talking about together, and that story will be told in a courtroom.

They`re not going to let, Nancy, no stone be left unturned in this case. They`re going to do everything they could, look at videos, check out all leads. But I`m sure they have a good case or they wouldn`t have come this far.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Erica in Florida. Hi, Erica.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, it`s such a pleasure to talk with you. Your kids are gorgeous.

GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just had a question. As far as the e-mail in reference to the Cindy Anthony giving the FBI or the police the wrong hairbrush.

GRACE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they still investigating that, or is that just going to be.

GRACE: Dropped by the wayside? What do we know, Mark Williams?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

WILLIAMS: Well, right now, we haven`t heard anything new on that. It`s just something that`s under investigation. You know, she allegedly gave the wrong hairbrush to the FBI. But that`s where it stands right now. No word is -- if they`re going to pursue that or if she`s going to be brought up on -- on charges of obstruction. So who knows what`s going to happen with that.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who was in the home after tot mom`s most recent -- release from jail, what can you tell bus the hairbrush incident?

PADILLA: Well, the hairbrush incident was something that we weren`t aware of until it broke on your show. But the one thing we were aware of was the almost giving the dogs toothbrush to the FBI. She made some comment about it, when Tracy repeated it to me, I thought, well, that`s typical Cindyism.

On the other hand, she also has made a comment about when did Tracy get an attorney to talk to? Well, she got that attorney way back when she first came back to Sacramento, because of some incriminating things that Casey had mentioned to her. And she didn`t want to be jacked up on a misprison -- felony type situation.

But let me make a comment on Hispanic versus white girl. I`ve got a brother that looks as light and as red-hair as Robert Redford, and I`ve got relatives that look like O.J. Simpson as far as skin color. So us Hispanics, Mexicans, we come in all shades and colors, so just because a little girl is whiter than her companions doesn`t mean that it`s Caylee.

GRACE: Out to the lines, to Laura in Michigan. Hi, Laura.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Caylee`s grandparents and lawyer are still believing she`s alive, yet the hair in the trunk showed it was from a decomposing body. You can`t just make a hair show decomposition, so why are they still believing she`s alive?

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Gloria Allred, Raymond Giudice, Anne Bremner.

Gloria, how will they try and explain away that hair to a jury?

ALLRED: Well, I think they`re going to go with the whole doubt defense, basically, that, you know, it could have been this, it could have been that, it could have been the other. Kind of reminds me of Scott Peterson. Well, why didn`t you interview this person, a sexual predator, why didn`t you interview that person?

I think that`s the way they`re going to go. And maybe they`re going to try to say - they`re -- maybe they`re going to try to question the chain of evidence, as well, in reference to the hair, that somehow there was contamination of the lab, and therefore, the test on the hair is not reliable.

GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: Gloria is absolutely right. And there is no body here. And it`s a case where she`s got all kinds of things.

GRACE: Well, what does that have to do with anything, that it`s not body hair? It`s all part of the child`s head.

BREMNER: No, no, I said there`s -- Nancy, that there is no body here. There`s no body in this case.

GRACE: No body here.

BREMNER: Right. And so.

GRACE: There`s just a hair.

BREMNER: Here.

GRACE: . with death ring on it that shows the person is dead.

BREMNER: Well, that -- like Gloria said, you can sure go after forensic evidence, and the bottom line is, this is a case where there`s not a lot of evidence, no direct evidence, and I think you go after doubt and whether or not the baby is still alive. Is Caylee still alive?

GRACE: Ray?

GIUDICE: Following up on what Gloria Allred said, I agree. I think Baez has been shotgun and scatter brained on this from day one. I don`t think he has a focused defense. I think he`s going to throw everything he`s got on the wall and see if anything sticks and I think that`s a mistake.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Betsy in Florida, hi, Betsy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was listening to the tapes of Cindy -- of Casey Anthony in jail. And her mother -- Cindy was talking about what a bad day she had had because she had a flat tire and Caylee responded, "oh, that happened to me as well." And I was just curious as to where she had a flat tire or when and who changed it and was.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . even in the car.

GRACE: What do we know about that, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: Casey had apparently said that she had a flat tire at some point where she was supposed to go out with her friends. Her friends had to come to her aid, fix the tire. It was on one of the freeways there in Orlando.

GRACE: And also, to Lauren Howard, what do you make of her demeanor behind bars?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, she is a very flat affect. But that`s not enough for me -- that`s not what shows me that she`s guilty or not guilty. There is no question that the argument here is try to muddy these waters and cast doubt because what are all these secrets about? What`s this big story that once everyone knows the truth, you know, everything will be fine?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: We`ll figure everything out. But I wanted to overlap to where we can all have our time. And all be with her. She is not just my little girl, and I know -- I mean, she`s -- she`s my baby, she will always be my baby. But she will always be your baby and dad`s baby and Lee`s baby. She`s our little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Janice in Vermont, hi, Janice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy Grace, I love your show, I go crazy if I don`t get to see it, your babies are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. I was wondering if the father`s hair sample would be the same as the baby`s?

GRACE: The father`s?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, Dr. Kobilinsky, forensic scientist on the Anthony defense team, when you`re using mitochondrial DNA from hair where you don`t have a root, the father`s DNA, is that an element of the analysis?

KOBILINSKY: Generally not. I think there`s a very, very rare situation referred to as heteroplasmy where the male mitochondrial DNA gets into the fertilized egg. Normally it is not a factor. And they`re strictly maternal inheritance.

GRACE: And very quickly to Anne Bremner, last night we focused on the fact the defense had not issued subpoenas for all of this video where they claim you see little Caylee. After our show they are now issuing subpoenas.

What took so long?

BREMNER: Well, Nancy, you -- have this every night, everyone`s watching you, and they should have about watching you before. You know what happened. They watched your show, and then they did it. And that shows.

GRACE: But the longer they wait the less likely the video is still kept.

BREMNER: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the fact of the matter is they`ve been behind the eight-ball all along.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Steve McCoy, 23, Moultrie, Georgia, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Purple Heart. An accomplished marksman. Loved football. Leaves behind parents Sam and Pam, grandmother Ann, widow Tabitha, twin toddlers Landon and Lylie.

Steve McCoy, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Denver friend of the show, Don.

Good night, Don.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/09/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Follow-Up Lags on Two New Caylee Sightings

Aired December 10, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. War breaks out over surveillance video. Is this little Caylee? A cell phone photo taken at an upscale Orlando mall sparks a battle over surveillance video and thousands of tips the Anthonys claim could bring Caylee home alive, the Anthonys fighting tooth and nail in court to get their hands on secret surveillance video from the mall. Is the mystery girl a profile shot of little Caylee?

And now another alleged sighting emerges at a local restaurant all the way across the country, Newport beach, California, all the while, investigators say multiple disks containing over 5,000 tips, taking over 50 man-hours to compile, have been sitting on a police desk, waiting to be picked up. But still, the defense attorney is a no-show. Is it because he knows that tot mom`s guilty of murder, rendering all the tips useless? This as grandparents George and Cindy Anthony publicly insist little Caylee is alive. Why? Do they believe it, or is it just trial strategy?

Both sides gearing up for a legal showdown. The tot mom`s murder trial set for January 5, the defense saying they`re considering a change of venue, but still dragging their heels on that and a speedy trial. And they just keep coming tonight, more stunning private jailhouse conversations between tot mom and her family, grilling her about Caylee`s disappearance. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details emerge in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, reportedly wants surveillance video from the Central Florida Mall, the location of a possible Caylee sighting on November 16.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s this photo by two women using their cell phone camera at the Florida mall. Here Cindy Anthony e-mails the photo to both the sheriff`s office and the FBI, just one of the 5,000 tips which they believe have gone mostly ignored.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Florida mall has so far refused to release the video, so Baez plans to ask the judge to force the mall to hand it over. A separate Caylee sighting in Newport Beach, California, is being investigated by George and Cindy Anthony themselves, as they travel to the "left coast" to determine if the child sighted is a living, breathing Caylee.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I`m doing everything I can, everything I can to help you and help her. I wish there was more I could do. I would give my life right now for you and for her to have you together.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I know that, Dad.

GEORGE ANTHONY: So would mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a gorgeous young morning show TV anchor brutally attacked, left for dead in her Arkansas home. After police admit very few clues at the scene, suddenly, a break. DNA evidence links a separate attack nearly 100 miles away, leading police straight to a prime murder suspect. Tonight, was the brutal assault of the 26-year-old Anne Pressly random, or was the stunning young anchorwoman the target all along?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of murdered Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly. Authorities have arrested and charged 28-year-old Curtis Lavell Vance in the brutal beating and murder of Anne Pressly after DNA from Pressly`s home was linked to him. The DNA that was taken from Pressly`s home matched a suspect in an April rape case in a town 90 miles away. Police were led to Vance after a detective working the rape case suggested officers investigate him. DNA from Vance`s saliva matched him to both crimes, and now Vance faces capital murder charges. Pressly, who her parents say was also a victim of sex assault, was found bloody and beaten inside her own home. Pressly never regained consciousness, dying in the hospital five days after the attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can tell you that the affidavit included facts that there was forensic evidence that was found in the victim`s home that connected him to the crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More breaking developments in the case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. The alleged live sighting of Caylee at the Florida mall has caused a stir, and now Casey Anthony`s attorney wants video from security cameras inside the mall.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There are just too many characteristics that stood out that it could be her. We`re not saying that it is her, we`re saying that it`s just another tip that somebody in the community believed it was her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to reports, Jose Baez will ask a Florida judge to force the mall to turn over video from November 16, the day multiple people spotted the child. While George and Cindy Anthony are out in California to appear on national television, they will also be investigating another live sighting of Caylee in the Newport Beach area.

CASEY ANTHONY: We miss her. We love her. I miss her. I love her dearly. And I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs with her family. It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, maybe in heaven. Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. War has broken out over surveillance video. And it`s all sparked from this photo taken with a cell phone at an upscale mall, the Florida mall there in Orlando. Why won`t the mall just give the video to the grandparents? What`s the problem?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the problem is, Nancy, is that the mall apparently has a policy through their management that they...

GRACE: Oh, please. Did you just say policy?

WILLIAMS: I`m just...

GRACE: Who cares about policy?

WILLIAMS: Well, I agree, Nancy, but here`s the deal. They`re only going to turn it over to Orange County sheriffs` investigators, since it is an active investigation. So they don`t want the Anthonys with their hands on it or anything else. So what...

GRACE: Why?

WILLIAMS: ... Jose Baez is -- because...

GRACE: Because what?

WILLIAMS: That is a good question, because three of the -- three security people have already seen this. They`ve already gone to the Anthonys. So Jose Baez...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! They`ve seen it, they`ve gone to the Anthonys...

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: ... and said what?

WILLIAMS: We have this video, you should have it, you should see it. And the mall refuses to turn it over.

GRACE: Did you say that mall investigators or police investigators went to the Anthonys?

WILLIAMS: I`m saying mall security personnel.

GRACE: Mall security. OK. So to me, that is cruel to go to the Anthonys and say, Hey, you need to see this video, but we`re not going to give it to you. That is complete BS. Policy, shmolicy! It`s Florida mall in Orlando refusing to hand over the security video. And let me ask you something, Mark Williams.

WILLIAMS: Yes?

GRACE: Are the cameras obvious? Can you see the cameras, or are they where these people with this little girl would not have known they were being surveilled?

WILLIAMS: I have not been out to the Florida mall in a little more than a year, and...

GRACE: Did you see cameras, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: I`ll tell you what, it`s probably Las Vegas style. Like any other mall in the country, you`ll see the brown bubbles or the black bubbles, and that`s where they probably shoot it from.

GRACE: You know what? You`re most likely correct. So tell me -- to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, joining us from Orlando. You know, this photo and this security video has been around since when? When was this photo taken, Petrimoulx?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: It was taken on November 16. And Jose Baez wants a subpoena -- he`s actually issued a subpoena for the tapes as a way of getting around this mall policy. He wants between the hours of 1:00 PM and 5:00 PM on that day. He wants those tapes, and he`s filed that with the courts.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Natisha Lance, that he just filed a subpoena after we lambasted him on air for sitting on his thumb, doing nothing to get that videotape?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It is true, he did just file the subpoena as of Friday of last week. However, Nancy, I did speak to the Orange County sheriff`s office, and they said even if they wanted to get the surveillance video, they would have to file a subpoena, as well. It would just not be handed over to...

GRACE: Well, let me clue you in, Natisha. Filing a subpoena is not a big mystery. It`s very easy to do. In fact, let me show you. It`s a form. All you do is write, "state versus Casey Anthony," and you put the indictment number. You write in there, it`s a subpoena ducus tecum (ph), which means a subpoena not for testimony but for an object or a document. You fill in what you want and you deliver it to the mall. In Florida, you may have to get an OK from the court or the court clerk. It`s easy -- one, two, three. What`s the hold-up, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: Well, he`s filed it now, so I guess we`ll have to wait and see.

GRACE: He filed it now. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn`t about a month passed since this photo emerged?

LANCE: Yes, this photo did emerge November 16. So it has been quite a while.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, former prosecutor out of D.C. Tad DiBiase, Alex Sanchez, veteran trial lawyer out of New York, and Alan Ripka, defense attorney also out of New York.

Alan Ripka, don`t they get it? Time is of the essence. You know, as in the Chandra Levy, where there was video, it was taped over. That`s very common in business establishments.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It absolutely is. And there`s often a policy of keeping a videotape, you know, for only 30 days because of storage. But in this case, Nancy, I`m quite sure that Jose Baez was on the phone, was trying to get this video and was probably assured it would be turned over to him. That`s why he didn`t file the subpoena.

GRACE: Right. So if you`re trying to find a girl, a little girl, that you believe is alive, Alex Sanchez, or so you say on the air -- so you say on the "Today" show, she`s alive -- instead of following up immediately and trying to find the little girl, you wait a month? Explain, Alex.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think that Mr. Baez believed that the police and the FBI went out of their way to try to get this tape. After all, why wouldn`t they go and get this tape and then turn it over to Baez and turn it over to the courts? So they waited a couple weeks, believing that the police would have followed a legitimate lead.

GRACE: A month.

SANCHEZ: But they didn`t.

GRACE: A month. Don`t say a couple weeks.

SANCHEZ: Wait a minute. Aren`t the police...

GRACE: The police said up front they don`t believe this is Caylee. They believe Caylee is dead.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Aren`t the police being irresponsible by not at least getting that tape, looking at it and resolving that problem and that issue once and for all?

GRACE: No. This is the defense argument. They`re the ones that want the videotape.

To Tad DiBiase out of D.C. Why did they drag their feet? I`ve got a theory. Because they may know that the tot mom is guilty of murder, and therefore, they know this isn`t little Caylee. So what`s the hurry, Tad?

TAD DIBIASE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s possible that`s true, Nancy, although I would say in no-body cases, it`s very common to have sightings of the victim. So it is incumbent upon the police and the prosecution to knock this down, if they`re able to do so, and presumably, they would be able to do so. So both sides should have gotten this tape as quickly as possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This grandmother says nothing is more frustrating to her than working with the sergeant in the Orange County sheriff`s office who won`t help her get the surveillance video from places where people say they`ve seen Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: If the sheriff`s office was requested, then it would make them look like they`re looking for a live Caylee, and that would hurt their case against my daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told you that.

CINDY ANTHONY: He absolutely exactly told me that in his exact words.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a roadblock that isn`t deterring Cindy as she continues to look for her missing granddaughter while preparing for what may be her first Christmas without Caylee since she was born.

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee has a tree for her room. Casey has a tree for her room. The kids have always had a Christmas tree from their very first Christmas.

If you think of anything that can help, don`t be afraid.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I won`t hesitate to let you guys know.

CINDY ANTHONY: You can`t be afraid, Casey, of anybody. You`ve got to get that strength from me and your dad and your brother. I know you have it in you. OK? You need to get that strength inside and do not feel like someone can hang anything over you or anything over us or threaten us because, well, you have said, you`re protecting your family. You don`t need to protect the family. Family has been through a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: War breaks out of -- over secretly recorded video taken from an upscale Orlando mall, the Florida Mall. This photo that you are looking at was taken from a pedestrian, a shopper`s cell phone. She immediately contacted authorities. Is there video revealing this little girl? The grandparents say yes, and it will prove Caylee is alive. Authorities say no, the girl is dead. All the while, tot mom sits behind bars, facing a January 5 trial date for murder.

I want to go straight back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and one of the few people still searching for little Caylee. Leonard Padilla, what do you make of this sighting? Have you seen the shot of this little girl? And why doesn`t the mall just hand over the video to the grandparents?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, you`ve got a lot of bureaucracy involved there, but let me tell you...

GRACE: In a mall?

PADILLA: In a mall, you`ve got...

GRACE: I mean, I can see in Washington, D.C., but hello, a mall?

PADILLA: You`ve got bureaucracy. Until somebody in that mall steps forward and says, Here it is, take it, they`re just going to be at a stalemate. But let me tell you, Caylee...

GRACE: Go ahead.

PADILLA: Caylee, beyond all reasonable doubt, is deceased. The FBI knows it. Orange County knows it. Cindy and George know it. And most of all, Casey, the perpetrator of her death, knows it. They al absolutely, positively know it.

GRACE: Do you believe, Leonard Padilla, that that is why, when the grandparents get a tip -- for instance, this new tip out of Newport Beach, California at Javier`s (ph) restaurant -- they wait? They don`t release it to the public? They sit on it. They keep saying they`re going to have a press conference, they never do. Is it because they know the little girl is dead, or do they really believe she`s alive?

PADILLA: No, they think about it. They also know one thing, and that is that these tapes are taped over. They know that they want to raise doubt. They want to have one juror on that jury somewhere down the road possibly believe that maybe in Newport at Javier`s, she was there. It`s not true. It`s absolutely not true. It`s all fiction, and it`s made up to confuse the future jury, if there is ever a jury, if there is no plea bargain achieved.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. I want to talk about this shot. Mark, apparently, it`s in a common area, it`s not within any particular store. Is there a play area? You know, like in McDonald`s or Burger King, they have, like, a little play area, like a mini-playground for children? Where is this?

WILLIAMS: It appears that it was taken in the -- like, the center court area of the mall. That`s kind of the common area where everybody kind of congregates, wait for their spouses to come out of stores.

Now, this picture was taken by a woman by the name of Hilema Solomita (ph). She is a worker, an employee of a nearby jewelry store only feet away from where this little girl was found. She took the picture. And then she was with a friend. They tried to call Crimeline, or one of tip lines here in town, and they waited 20 minutes. They finally just hung up the phone because they didn`t get any response.

GRACE: And Mark, what can you tell me about the location of this mall? Is it near an interstate, or is it a place that only locals would know about?

WILLIAMS: No, it`s well known. It`s even well known by international travelers. During my visits over there to the mall, I see a lot of folks from other countries coming in there. It`s at the corner of Sand Lake Road and Orange Blossom Trail. It`s a very big commercial area. You know, I`ve been -- I went to -- first came down here about 25 years ago to look around, and the area has just exploded with commercial ventures.

GRACE: So basically, anybody could have been in that mall, not just locals with the Caylee look-alike.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. To Alex Sanchez, defense attorney out of New York. Is it just trial strategy? Because if I were the defense, that`s the first thing I`d put up on a big-screen TV -- Look, here she is. This is little Caylee, and the police haven`t investigated it.

SANCHEZ: You know, I don`t believe that. I think that`s a very cynical approach to what is happening...

GRACE: I`m asking you.

SANCHEZ: I think that these parents believe that that child is alive, and they have a right to look at possible sightings and examine that evidence to see if there`s any truth to it.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Alan Ripka, if you want to win a case, you`ve got to anticipate what the other side is going to do.

RIPKA: Of course you do, Nancy. But don`t forget, this is strangers who took this photo. The Anthonys had nothing to do with this photo being taken, so there was no trial strategy here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, I don`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. That doesn`t matter because I know it`s not true and everyone that knows me knows it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home. But I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Somehow, it all always gets back to the tot mom getting out of jail. Not one single legitimate conversation about the search for Caylee on these recorded jailhouse videotapes. As we go to air tonight, the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, are in California following up on a lead out of Newport Beach, California.

What can you tell me about it, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: Well, this tip came five days after the Florida mall sighting, so it would have been November 21. Apparently, this little girl was with a family of Spanish origin. The family was speaking more Spanish, the little girl was speaking more English. There was a couple there. They spotted this little girl.

Now, they didn`t report this tip until just last week. Now, police, because it was so long after this actually occurred, they weren`t really able to follow up on it as much as they would like to, but they did refer them to central Florida Crimeline, and central Florida would get back with police if there was anything that they needed to follow up on.

Now, I spoke to the manager at Javier`s restaurant. She said that no one in the restaurant has come forward and said that they actually saw this little girl. Also, they do have surveillance cameras at this restaurant. However, since so much time has passed, they said that they don`t keep those tapes for very long.

GRACE: Once again, to Vince Velazquez, homicide detective out of the Atlanta metro area and hostage negotiator -- Vince, they sat on their thumb, and it was taped over. Why? Doesn`t anybody watch TV?

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO: Nancy, if they wanted that surveillance videotape, they have -- he`s an officer of the court, just like I am as a detective, like any prosecutor is. He could have dropped the subpoena off a month ago. He would have had that tape already. I don`t know what the strategy is. I`m not an attorney. But it does seem to me that waiting for the tape, there is a possibility that when they go to get it, it won`t be there.

GRACE: You`re certainly right, Vince. And back to Natisha Lance. You stated "they," they didn`t report it. Who is "they"? Who are you talking about? Who didn`t report the Newport Beach, California, sighting?

LANCE: That is this couple who saw her. It is apparently a lawyer and his girlfriend. The girlfriend is the one who went to the police department to make this report. However, they have given sworn affidavit statements to the private investigator for the Anthony family. And they said that they are very credible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I just want her back.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: God!

CINDY ANTHONY: You have to keep thinking positive. Positive feelings, Casey.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know. I have been. I`ve been staying as positive as I can.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: She is beautiful. You know that, I know that. And I`m hoping.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I hear that every day. I know.

G. ANTHONY: I said, you know, that the photos of her are beautiful. But when you see her in front of you, the eyes.

C. ANTHONY: She`s captivating. She`s absolutely captivating.

G. ANTHONY: She has a personality that`s so, so remarkable. And I said, I owe that, you know, to my daughter, I owe that to my wife, myself, I -- you know, my son. Other family members that have made her so excitable because she`s just a fantastic little girl.

C. ANTHONY: She has the best in all of us, and that`s something I`ve been thinking about. She has the best that we all do. And she shows it all the time. I mean, she has the little quirky things about her that you do, you know, or that you have and same thing with mom.

I mean, she is the best of the four of us. She is. She`s that top point in our star. You said that we`re like a hand. We`re also like a star.

G. ANTHONY: There`s a lot of hard decisions to make. We`re trying to find that little girl. We`re trying.

C. ANTHONY: I know you are.

G. ANTHONY: I mean all of us have experienced a lot of different things. We have so many questions. We have emotions and -- but if there is anything at all that you want to share, you know, you`ve got to share it. You know, write it down. You know? I mean, I know Mr. Baez is working on your best interest, but, you know.

C. ANTHONY: My number one.

G. ANTHONY: Let me ask you something. Would you be interested in talking to, like, an FBI guy or something?

C. ANTHONY: Anyone that you guys want to bring in, I`ll talk to.

G. ANTHONY: OK. That`s great, that`s great news. OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Battle breaks out over secretly-recorded mall surveillance video after this cell phone photo emerges from the Florida mall there in Orlando.

As we go to air, grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony in California, following up on a tip out of Newport Beach, California at a local restaurant called Javier`s. A lawyer and his girlfriend spot a Caylee look-alike.

But has the video been taped over?

Straight back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, did police follow up on the Newport, California tip?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: They did, Nancy. They went out there after they received the report, and they talked to the manager. They also talked to some of the employees. But there were no witnesses.

The employees didn`t know really what was going on. All they had was that tip that was given to them by that couple. And that`s pretty much it, Nance.

GRACE: Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He`s a paid consultant to the Casey Anthony defense team. You know, in the last 24 hours, defense attorney Jose Baez has gone on national TV, suggesting he wants to go forward with trial January 5.

Are you prepared to testify?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Oh, I am prepared to testify. I can tell you that he has been not just doing the "Today" show, but, you know, he`s been visiting experts, and he has been working hard.

He`s an advocate, he`s zealous, and he really believes that the child is still alive, and everything will come out in the courtroom.

GRACE: Really? So you`re prepared to testify without having viewed the evidence? I`d never let you get on the stand like that.

KOBILINSKY: Well, I would testify about certain things. Obviously, I can`t testify.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?

KOBILINSKY: I said I would testify about certain things that are within my area of expertise.

GRACE: And your area of expertise is DNA.

KOBILINSKY: That`s correct.

GRACE: OK. So to the lawyers, Tad Dibiase, D.C., Alex Sanchez, New York, Alan Ripka, New York.

Alan, the first thing he`s going to be asked on cross-examination is, isn`t it true, Dr. Kobilinsky, tell the jury, you haven`t even seen the evidence? You haven`t handled it. You haven`t held it in your hands and looked at it. Much less put it under a microscope, isn`t that true?

Question number one.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s true, Nancy. What he`s going to be asked is what supports his opinion? You`re giving an opinion, you want the jury to rely upon, but you have nothing to support it, because you have not investigated the evidence and it`s not going to be credible.

GRACE: Alex?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know I seriously doubt Dr. Kobilinsky is going to get on that witness stand without having reviewed all the.

GRACE: He said he`s ready.

SANCHEZ: . available.

GRACE: He said he`s ready.

SANCHEZ: But this case is definitely not going to trial on January 4th. There is too much information. There`s too many reports that have to be reviewed and completed.

GRACE: Oh, listen now, wait a minute.

SANCHEZ: And Dr. Kobilinsky is probably.

GRACE: Alex.

SANCHEZ: . not prepared nearly to get on the witness stand and testify yet.

GRACE: I know Kobilinsky. I know Kobilinsky, and believe you me, he`s read every existing report backwards.

SANCHEZ: And there`s additional reports.

GRACE: But he hasn`t seen the evidence. He hasn`t seen the evidence, Alex.

SANCHEZ: Well, that`s exactly why he is probably not going to testify on January 4th. He wants more time. I know Dr. Kobilinsky, very thorough, he wants more time to review this evidence so that he could be -- so he could testify properly.

GRACE: Yes, you know what? There is a reason he is summoned in all over the country, Tad Dibiase, because he`s thorough. And what he hasn`t done, though, is he hasn`t put that hair, that`s his expertise. DNA. Deoxyribonucleic acid.

He has not put that hair, the death hair, the so-called death hair belonging to Caylee, found in the trunk of tot mom`s car under a microscope. He hasn`t viewed the back of the car to see that stain ostensibly human DNA. Human stain from decomposition.

So wouldn`t you agree the first question on cross-exam is why haven`t you seen the evidence, Doctor?

TAD DIBIASE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. You can`t have credibility unless you have actually looked at all the evidence and evaluated it. To do so without getting up there makes it easy fodder for a prosecution to, frankly, rip you apart in front of a jury and then toss you aside when your own experts take the stand and say we have looked at this evidence. It`s not -- I think it is also unlikely it was.

GRACE: So all this that the defense attorney is saying, for instance, on the "Today" show, is complete and total BS.

Take a listen to the defense attorney on national TV.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: She`s innocent. Absolutely, 100 percent innocent. And we`ll have our day in court. We`ll be able to tell everyone the full story. Not just a fraction of it where people have been assuming the worst.

And quite frankly, you -- can`t judge someone`s life based on a fraction of the story. Currently, right now, what we`re doing is doing the research and the different areas, different media markets to see exactly where`s the best place to see if we could possibly try this case.

That we should be submitting to the court shortly.

We believe that Caylee is alive. And what we want to do -- as her attorney, I have a responsibility to Casey. And that is to do the best job possible. So it`s not an issue of rushing to get a trial, just because we expect a body to be found.

MATT LAUER, "TODAY" SHOW HOST: So will you delay the trial?

BAEZ: Well, that`s not something we`re willing to do, either. My client is sitting in jail. She wants to clear her name. She -- she wants her day in court, and we want to have our day in court. So really, it`s all about getting the job done right, going into -- going into trial prepared. And that`s the key goal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Really? It`s just about answering Matt Lauer`s question, trying to sound like you`re making any sense.

That`s Jose Baez, defense attorney on NBC`s "Today" show, adamant that little Caylee is still alive.

Correct me if I`m wrong, but didn`t I just hear him say, Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist out of L.A., he said, "We`re doing research to find out if we could try the case." Clue. You`re going to try the case, Jose Baez. You`re going to trial whether you like it or not. I mean is that a Freudian slip?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Oh, you bet. And so is his body language, if you look at it. You know when he shakes his head no, and he is saying things in the affirmative. So there is a lot between the lines when you look at that interview.

GRACE: Like what? What? What am I supposed to read from the body language? You`re the expert.

GLASS: Well, you`re supposed to read that he doesn`t think she`s alive, because you see -- you know, Caylee is alive, we really believe she is, as he shakes his head no. And that tells you a lot. The body doesn`t lie.

GRACE: Oh, you mean like if I say yes, yes, and I`m shaking my head no, I`m giving -- got it.

GLASS: Yes.

GRACE: All right. OK. Speaking of body language, take a look at tot mom behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: If we don`t find her, you know, they`re building -- they`re trying to build a case against you, honey.

C. ANTHONY: They`ve already -- that`s what they`ve been doing. I know that`s the other two detectives` main goal is building a case.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know, and that`s why I`m so frustrated because I know.

C. ANTHONY: That`s why I`m frustrated. That`s why I don`t want to speak to either of them because it`s not going to do any good. It really isn`t.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, we`ll make it happen with this other person.

C. ANTHONY: Thank you.

CINDY ANTHONY: And like I said, if we can get an outside source, like FBI to talk to.

C. ANTHONY: If you can get someone outside, that`s fine. Bring in whoever. By any means.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: You and I are on the same page with that. We will do whatever is necessary.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. All right, honey. I believe that.

Is it just the local police you don`t feel comfortable to?

C. ANTHONY: Oh, it`s just.

CINDY ANTHONY: Or is it just the authority in general?

C. ANTHONY: It`s those two specific. It`s Adam Zembelic. No, Happy Wells. The other.

CINDY ANTHONY: Allen and Melich.

C. ANTHONY: Allen. Yes. Sorry, John Allen and Melich.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: The other guy that came to the house, I don`t know if you remember him very well. He went by Happy. His last name is Wells.

CINDY ANTHONY: Happy Wells? You want to talk to Wells?

C. ANTHONY: I would speak to him -- of any of the -- you know, the detectives.

CINDY ANTHONY: Would you speak with him with Jose or by himself?

C. ANTHONY: I would speak to him alone, with Jose, it doesn`t matter. He`s -- we had a lot of conversations when I sat up in the room that day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: TV anchorwoman, Anne Pressly, beaten and stabbed at her home in Little Rock. The 26-year-old was found by her mother, unresponsive and bleeding from severe wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our hearts are heavy here at KATV after learning that our own Anne Pressly died from injury she suffered during a brutal attack on her home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities have arrested and charged 28-year- old Curtis Lavelle Vance in the brutal beating and murder of Anne Pressly after DNA from Pressly`s home was linked to him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is specific forensic evidence that they were able to link directly to the suspect. The Little Rock Police Department, I know, throughout the entire process, was extremely careful in their processing of the evidence, and making sure that they have a good, strong solid case. And so we`re confident in that aspect.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re confident they have the right person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a the although of people that are really intensely eager to find out what the facts are, and at this point in time, due to all the hard work at the police crime lab, we probably don`t need to say.

I can tell you the affidavit includes facts that the -- that there were forensic evidence that was found in the victim`s home that connected him to the crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: About 4:30 in the morning, this stunning young anchorwoman`s mother comes to her home to find her daughter left for dead. Her face crushed and bleeding so badly, police originally thought she had had been stabbed.

In fact, it was a beating death. Five days later, after lingering in the hospital, she passes away. Now tips lead police nearly 100 miles away to a prime suspect.

To Dana Bradley, reporter with KARN Newsradio and former co-worker of Anne Pressly`s, what`s the latest?

DANA BRADLEY, KARN NEWSRADIO, FMR. CO-WORKER OF ANNE PRESSLY: Well, Little Rock District Judge Lee Martin has set a gag order on the case, and that`s become the big news here, because the local paper here says, no, that`s not right.

They`re trying to find out some information dealing with Curtis Lavelle Vance who is the suspect in this case, who`s in jail here. They want to read different jail log records and try to find out what they can, but it`s pretty much under a gag order, so there`s not too much more we can find out from the Little Rock Police Department.

GRACE: Well, I know this much, Jane Velez-Mitchell, the host of "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL" airing just before our show -- Jane, I know that DNA apparently links him not only to Pressley, DNA found in the form of semen, blood and even skin under Pressly`s fingernails.

She fought to live, apparently attacked in her bed as she lay sleeping. DNA links him, allegedly, to not only her attack, but a rape attack, nearly 100 miles away.

JANE VELEZ MITCHELL, HOST, ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s right, Nancy. And that alleged rape occurred seven months earlier, and it took the authorities months and months and months to process that DNA.

And the question is, why did it take them so long? Because had had they processed that DNA and tracked down this suspect, Curtis Vance, months earlier, Anne Pressly might be alive today.

But it took them a long time. Then they finally matched up that DNA from that then unsolved rape with Pressly`s DNA, the same person, and they tracked this Curtis Vance down to this little town 100 miles east of Little Rock. They interviewed him, he gave a DNA swab. Turns out that`s the guy, and that`s how they caught him.

GRACE: Correction, Jane Velez-Mitchell, she would be alive today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are right.

GRACE: You hit the nail on the head.

Back to Dana Bradley with KARN. You know, when they got the Pressly case involved, it took them one day, one day to match up the DNA. But that rape case, 100 miles away lingered for months?

BRADLEY: Well, they`re saying -- I asked that question. And the thing with that is, when they got that DNA from the rape case from the young -- the teacher who was raped in Mariana, they didn`t have a suspect to match that DNA to. So when the second case -- when the second case came about with Anne Pressly, the DNA was in the system already.

So that`s how they matched the two together. So it did take a long time for the DNA to come back. But they did not have a suspect to match the DNA to.

GRACE: Well, that makes sense, Dana Bradley. But let me ask you this. Does he have a criminal history? Was his DNA already in the DNA data bank, CODIS?

BRADLEY: No, it wasn`t. His prior history was basically for traffic tickets and stuff like that. He did not have a criminal history, and they were -- he was under investigation in Mariana for burglaries and things of that sort, but nothing that he had been arrested for.

GRACE: Which goes back to my premise.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Tad Dibiase out of Washington, Alex Sanchez and Alan Ripka out of New York. I believe that when you`re charged with a felony, such as burglary, if you go to trial, and you`re convicted, or you enter a guilty plea -- to Alan Ripka -- I think your DNA needs to go, not just to your fingerprint, but your DNA needs to go into CODIS that day, because they would have matched him up to the original rape, and Pressley would be alive today, Alan Ripka.

RIPKA: Well, you`re saying had they arrested him on the burglary charge, she would be alive today. Like your prior guest said, there was no link to him at that particular time. So it wouldn`t have mattered, Nancy, in this case.

GRACE: He had prior -- Dana, did he have a prior burglary?

BRADLEY: He was under -- the Mariana police were investigating him for burglary.

GRACE: Oh, just under investigation. I understand. Thank you, Dana.

BRADLEY: He hasn`t been arrested for burglary.

GRACE: Thank you, Dana.

Now, isn`t it true, Jane Velez-Mitchell, that women at a gym, a sports club had stated he was stalking women outside the club? I mean this guy`s been everywhere. Everybody knew he was roaming around neighborhoods where he didn`t live. He was hanging around sports clubs, ogling women that came in and out?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly, Nancy. Why wasn`t he picked up for these burglaries? Because at one point, the police in the small town in which he lives, Mariana, said, oh yes, you know, there is this guy that has been lurking in yards and going into people`s houses and he`s a suspect in a couple of burglaries.

Why wasn`t he arrested if he was a suspect in a couple burglaries? And why was he out there lurking around until they finally got this DNA, and they put two and two together?

GRACE: And to Alan Ripka, defense attorney out of New York, the MOs of the two attacks, rapes, one a murder, in addition, are startlingly similar, both inside a freestanding home, not an apartment, the woman home alone, he breaks in undetected, a sex attack goes down, and flees with certain objects.

It`s -- I predict that one will come in at the trial of the other.

RIPKA: As you know, Nancy, the judge will make that determination before the trial starts to determine whether or not that evidence is more prejudicial than probative.

GRACE: Come on, Alan, you know it`s coming in. We`ll pick that up when we come back.

But as we go to break, a special happy birthday to Georgia friend of the show, Macey, celebrating her sweet 16 today.

Happy birthday, Macey.

And at your request, new photos of the twins. They`ll be on the Web tonight. I hope you like them. Here`s John David, exploring nature, and Lucy, look. You only buy expensive gifts, and I`ve got a few that were gifts, but her favorite toy is this old box. There`s nothing in it.

Oh, they got that monkey as a gift, and they must put it on their heads. There she is back in the box. John David with the monkey and his pretend cell phone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had felt all along that the police had a very solid, very strong case. So that tells me the judge concurred with the evidence that was presented to him initially. So we`re looking forward to a trial in which we anticipate that the prosecutor will prevail in a capital murder case, and then we`re looking forward to a conviction that is appropriate for capital murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The stunning anchorwoman died five days later from a brain stem that was ruptured. The crime scene covered in blood, apparently throwback from the murder weapon.

Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell from "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL," was a murder weapon ever discovered in Pressly`s murder?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, and I have to say, Nancy, that this woman was so brutally beaten that there were literally bones popping out of her face, and her left hand was broken, pointing out that she put up a fierce and valiant struggle.

The other woman who says that she was raped by this same individual, has courageously come forward and said that she was attacked from behind. She didn`t put up a struggle and she is alive to talk about it.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, the crime scene must be a field day for crime scene techs getting DNA evidence.

KOBILINSKY: Sure. There`s a lot of blood spatter, I think that is -- that reveals a lot about the events that took place during the attack. Different kinds of patterns.

GRACE: Right.

KOBILINSKY: . dynamic static, so there`s a lot of information there.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez, he`s likely looking at the needle.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I mean, this is a very egregious crime and you know, if he gets convicted, certainly these aggravating factors are going to come into consideration before the jury, and there`s a very good chance that if he`s convicted, he`s looking at the end of a rope or he`s looking at a needle.

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember right now Marine Lance Corporal Kelly Waters, just 19, Virginia Beach, Virginia, killed in Iraq, on a second tour, awarded two Purple Hearts, combat action ribbon, lost his life, his parents by his side as he battled severe injuries at a stateside hospital.

Dreamed of buying a Dodge Charger, loved dance, music and movies. Favorite snacks? Slim Jims. Leaves behind parents, Peter and Lisa, three brothers and one sister.

Kelly Watters, American hero.

Thanks to our guest but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/10/ng.01.html

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/10/lkl.01.html

KING: Now joining us George and Cindy Anthony. They are the grandparents of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Their daughter Casey is Caylee's mom and she's in jail now, charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and lying to investigators.

Before we start, let's watch the gripping jailhouse video of Casey talking with her parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: Hey gorgeous, how are you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: I look like hell.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something, you really need to keep your spirit high for all this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven't been crying while I've been in here.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something...

CASEY ANTHONY: I've been trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: Listen, I'm in front of the cameras all the time.

What message do you want me to give to Zanny and to Kate and to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: A short...

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Zanny?

CASEY ANTHONY: That she needs to return Caylee. I forgive her.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you think her reasons are?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don't know.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she's smiling and she's happy and that she is -- she's OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much and she's the most important thing in this entire world to me. And to be brave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: By the way, you heard that -- on that tape -- a reference to Zanny, who Casey claimed was the little girl's nanny -- the woman who allegedly kidnapped her. That woman says she didn't even know the family and has been cleared by police.

There's a lot to cover with the Anthonys. We're glad to have them here. We'll get into it right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We now welcome George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents of the missing Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony. They last saw her in mid-June.

How are you holding up?

CINDY ANTHONY: We take one day at a time. You know, it's very hard -- a lot of sleep lost, lost a lot of weight. You know, we just take one day at a time.

KING: When did you last see Caylee?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I last saw her on June 16th, the day after Father's Day.

KING: What happened the day she went missing?

CINDY ANTHONY: We actually didn't find out until July so...

KING: She had been missing how long when you found out?

CINDY ANTHONY: About a month. And...

KING: Isn't that strange?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, not really. My daughter, you know, had her. And, you know, we just -- we just assumed that Casey and Caylee were, you know, off visiting friends. KING: George, why wouldn't your daughter have called you and say Caylee's gone?

GEORGE ANTHONY: That's really a good question. I -- I know we kept in contact with her -- at least Cindy did -- almost every day or every other day -- a little text message here and there. And everything was fine.

KING: So what do you make of it?

I mean, she's your daughter. You have to have some -- why wouldn't she not -- why would she tell you -- not tell you?

CINDY ANTHONY: I think she's -- I think she was frightened. I think, from what we understand, that, you know, there's been threats to not only Caylee's well-being, but also to our family's well-being.

KING: By?

CINDY ANTHONY: By the people that have Caylee.

KING: You think Caylee was taken. Your daughter obviously knew she was taken.

CINDY ANTHONY: Um-hmm.

KING: For what purpose?

CINDY ANTHONY: You know, I'm still trying to sort that out. You know, the person that originally has her or had her, we've had three or four different sightings with the same description that Casey released -- that they finally released on this person. And the Zenaida that the police department tracked down was one out of thousands that Casey said right from the beginning was not the correct person.

They just now released, within a couple of weeks ago, the actual description of the baby-sitter. And we've had three -- that I'm aware of -- tips that have come in since June of people who described this person to a tee that had Caylee.

KING: What does your daughter think, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, our daughter thinks that Caylee needs to be found. And she said...

KING: No, I mean what does she think happened?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh. She's already told us that this Zanny, this baby-sitter, is the one that has her.

KING: Who denies it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, the one that -- like Cindy just said about the one that the sheriff's department, our local sheriff's department, had brought to my daughter's attention, it's not her. It's just not her. KING: Let's go back to July 15th. Cindy, here's part of the 911 call that you made.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911.

What's your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff is not here. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can't find my granddaughter. And she just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. There's something wrong. I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damned car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KING: Did you suspect your daughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: No.

KING: Never in all of this?

CINDY ANTHONY: Never.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Never.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have not. From day one, I haven't. You know, Casey has been a loving, very caring mother. And I could see that first night that she was very frightened when the sheriff's department arrived at the house. I mean she was devastated. She was on the floor just beside herself. And she has been very emotional since day one, which hasn't been reported. Her main focus has been the same as ours, it's been looking -- it's been looking for Caylee since the very beginning.

KING: When they arrested her, were you shocked, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, absolutely. When they took her into custody the very first time, I was just appalled because I wanted them to -- and I wanted to put an AMBER Alert out for my granddaughter, which they never did. They never contacted the FBI that I wanted them to contact. I mean, I have a little bit of knowledge on some stuff and you would really think that they would want to have some -- someone wanting to have helped them assist trying to find this beautiful three year little old girl. And all I was trying to do was trying to help them and they haven't...

KING: But why do you think they wouldn't?

GEORGE ANTHONY: They had their mind made up.

CINDY ANTHONY: They had their mind made up. You know, they picked out... GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE).

CINDY ANTHONY: ...Zenaida Gonzalez. They picked out a 38-year-old woman when Casey told them it was a 24-year-old woman. They picked out someone that had children...

KING: As the nanny, you mean?

CINDY ANTHONY: Right. And she told them she had no children.

You know, they, from the very beginning, decided how this was going to take place. They made judgment on her within two hours of having her in custody. And that's the way it's been. They have not assisted us into looking into finding Caylee.

KING: And they said...

CINDY ANTHONY: And we believe she is alive.

KING: I gather. I want to get to that.

Have they set a trial date?

CINDY ANTHONY: Right now, January 5th.

KING: And no death penalty, right?

CINDY ANTHONY: No death penalty.

KING: They removed -- they had it and then removed it?

CINDY ANTHONY: They removed it. GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

KING: We'll be right back with George and Cindy Anthony on this education of LARRY KING LIVE.

The Anthonys have a Web site -- helpfindcaylee.com.

If you have something today -- to say, rather -- let's hear it at our Web site, CNN.com/larryking. And we'll air some of your comments later in the show.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, you don't realize the whole United States is looking for Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know that, mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're back.

Casey Anthony, by the way, was interviewed by members of the Orange County Sheriff's Office July 16th.

Here's part of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn't you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: I think part of me was naive enough to think that I could handle this myself, which obviously I couldn't. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved or my parents, which I know would have done the same thing.

Just the fear of the unknown -- fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Why do you think she was arrested and charged, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Because they had their -- like Cindy said, they had their mind made up. It was too easy for them to just close the book on this and say well, we're going to charge you with your daughter's disappearance and just be done with it.

KING: Did they ever look at why a mother would kill her daughter?

I mean, did anyone ever question motive?

CINDY ANTHONY: Right. There is no motive and they haven't found a motive. They even said they haven't found a motive. They -- they told us they thought it was an accident and she's scared and she's trying to cover it up.

KING: Killed her by accident and then...

CINDY ANTHONY: Right.

KING: ...buried her or something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Right, they don't feel there's the motive.

KING: Have they looked for the child?

CINDY ANTHONY: We have had five searches done by the sheriff's department, done by Tim Miller with Texas EquuSearch.

KING: I know him.

CINDY ANTHONY: And it's come up with nothing. There's nothing that they have found that, you know, has given them any evidence that Caylee is no longer with us.

KING: Where do you think she is, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, Caylee? She's with hopefully a loving family that's taking care of her.

CINDY ANTHONY: We got a tip today.

KING: Today?

CINDY ANTHONY: Today, at 4:00 today. Right now, being investigated by --

KING: What was the tip?

CINDY ANTHONY: In Tennessee.

KING: Someone spotted a girl who looked like her?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yeah, at a grocery store in Tennessee. And my investigators have already spoken with the Tennessee authorities and also the tipster and we're just waiting to see if there's any video in the store.

KING: You realize if they find Caylee, this is a terrible miscarriage of justice.

CINDY ANTHONY: It's been a terrible miscarriage of justice.

KING: However, you must understand the authorities' viewpoint here. Here they are with the dilemma of this woman, a nanny says I didn't do it, I wasn't with her. She waits a month before telling -- I mean, they certainly have grounds for suspicion, don't you think?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, they looked at one Zenaida Gonzalez, one Zenaida. They told us there was only one in our area. There was 11 just in Orlando. They picked out one. Casey told them to check New York or Miami because she had a New York license. She told them that. They pulled up an Ohio license.

Bottom line is Caylee is out there. We have had people from June 20th who have given us sworn statements that they have seen Caylee in Orlando. We have sworn statements from July 2nd. We have people that are out there, can't sleep at night because they have seen her in July. We have people that we met last night that saw her in California just two weeks ago. How do you fight with someone or, you know, say if they're sitting four feet away from this child and they say they're positive that this is Caylee? Because they have seen her picture for the last six months, four feet.

KING: How old would she be now?

CINDY ANTHONY: Three.

KING: Let's listen to a bit more of Casey's July 16th interview with authorities.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) INVESTIGATOR: Was there anything that you want to change or divert from what you have already told me?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

INVESTIGATOR: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

INVESTIGATOR: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you're worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

INVESTIGATOR: And you're telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn't returned her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She's the last person that I've seen with my daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KING: Let's take a call. Winston-Salem, North Carolina, for George and Cindy Anthony. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, George and Cindy. I am so sorry for the trouble that your family has been going through. I just wanted to ask you, Cindy. When you first called police, you said something like it smelled like there was a dead body in the trunk of your daughter's car. And more recently you said that you believe that it was maybe old pizza. And I was just calling wondering why you changed your mind on that.

CINDY ANTHONY: I changed my mind on that -- I never changed my mind on that. What I stated was the car smelled, OK. I was told by my husband and also by the gentleman at the tow yard that there was a bag of food that contained pizza and maggots in the car. I went down and I spoke myself with the manager of the tow company, and he told us that that was the cause of the smell in the car. I don't know if anybody that has ever smelled decay of food that's been in a car trunk for 19 days in Florida heat. I have opened my refrigerator and made the comment, something died in here.

KING: We'll take a break and come back. The Orange County sheriff's department released this statement tonight for us. "From the beginning, our desire was to find Caylee Marie Anthony alive and well. Evidence unfortunately revealed that we are looking for a deceased child. The sheriff's office got involved because Cindy Anthony called us about her missing granddaughter. The resulting investigation led to a grand jury indictment of Casey Anthony for murder in the first degree. Our hearts go out to the Anthonys for the extremely difficult time they're living through."

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: A beautiful little girl. Following Casey's arrest in July on child neglect and other charges, George and Cindy visited her in jail. Here is some of the surveillance video from that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I don't care what I have to do. When I told them I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever by any means to get her back. That's exactly how I feel, it's the truth.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, we have to find her before her third birthday. That's coming up fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: There were reports, photo shots, I think, of your daughter partying a lot and out having a good time during all this, while her daughter is missing. Explain that.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was one photo out of all of the photos that has been shown of her partying that was after June 16th, one. And what we have learned that that is a staged photo. That those are photos that they used to entice other people to come into that club. She would have gotten paid for that photo. So, in fact, she was working. And we have proof of that.

KING: Where George, is Caylee's father?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Caylee's father lived somewhere in the Carolinas I believed at one point. He's deceased. He passed away right around her second birthday.

KING: Oh, so she was still around when he died.

CINDY ANTHONY: Right, he was never part of her life.

KING: Sioux Falls, South Dakota, hello.

CALLER: Thank you, Larry. My question is for George. George, removing yourself from your family, I know you are a professional in the department. What was your professional opinion of the smell in that trunk?

GEORGE ANTHONY: My professional opinion is I never really realized how long it would take garbage to smell for 19 days or 18 days inside of a car in Florida, to be honest with you.

KING: What do you do, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right now, I'm in the security field. Been in law enforcement for years, I sort of stayed in the security field off and on all the years.

KING: Were you in law enforcement in Orlando?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, never was in Orlando, now. I was in law enforcement 20-some odd years ago.

KING: So you would understand law enforcement psyche?

GEORGE ANTHONY: To a point, yes, possibly, yes. But then again, I know what I feel inside, that that's like Cindy says. Inside that bag was garbage. It really was. It was pizza. I mean, I've seen it. I know what was in there.

KING: And there's no way you can fathom, Cindy, your daughter harming your granddaughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, there's nobody that has come forward that has ever seen or said anything other than that Caylee (sic) was an excellent mother. So there's -- Casey has done nothing to her daughter. There's no evidence that shows that, and I can with 100 percent of my being say that I believe that Casey had nothing to do with Caylee's disappearance.

KING: We have a little more to show you from inside the jailhouse, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: What's your gut telling you right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: That she's OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And your gut tells you she's close or she's hiding?

CASEY ANTHONY: She's not far. I know in my heart she's not far. I can feel it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Oh, boy. This is -- are you optimistic that you're going to find Caylee? I mean, how do you feel about it? It's been a long time.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, over the last several weeks we have gotten probably our best sightings. We had one in the middle of November, right in Orlando. Two women, very credible, were within 10 feet of her, watched her for 20 minutes, took photographs of her. This last couple that we met last night saw her a week after that point, were within four feet of her.

KING: So she's somewhere, you think?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely.

KING: We'll see what you're saying on the blogs tonight in 60 seconds. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Let's hear what you're talking about tonight. Here's our own David Theall with the blog report. David?

DAVID THEALL, LARRY KING LIVE PRODUCER: Larry, as you know, in advance of their appearance tonight, George and Cindy provided us with a guest commentary that we posted on your blog. This is one of those stories that garners a lot of comments. The vast majority of them are critical of George, Cindy, and their daughter Casey. Not all of them, however.

Nikki belongs in that camp. Nikki says, "I don't understand how anybody can attack George and Cindy. Nobody knows for sure how they would react if put in this situation." Crystal says, "I have become addicted to this story and I cannot help but lean to the facts that show most likely this child is no longer in the flesh."

As I said, the vast majority of people on your blog right now, Larry, are critical of the Anthonys. Barbara belongs in that camp. She says, "Your daughter holds the truth no matter how bad it will be to hear."

And Lisa says this, "The enabling of Casey needs to end now."

This conversation is going to continue on your blog. You can read the exclusive guest commentary from the Anthonys in which they battle this public perception of their family and of this case. It's at CNN.com/LarryKing. Look for the live blog link. Click it, come on in.

KING: Thank you, David. And when we come back with our remaining moments with George and Cindy, we'll find out why they think most people are against them, if that's true. More of your calls too, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Anderson Cooper will host "A.C. 360" at the top of the hour. What's up, Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, tonight on the program, the governor heads back to work today, Governor Blagojevich as calls mount for his resignation. Fifty Democratic senators and an aide to President-elect Obama want him to step down. Will he stay in office? And we'll show you a peek into the governor's private life. His wife standing by her man. And while there's no evidence she has committed any crimes or allegations of that, many are calling her a modern day Lady Macbeth with a mouth like a trucker. Although maybe that's unfair to truckers.

And we're following the breaks news on the auto bailout. The House passes the $14 billion bailout, but a growing revolt among Republican senators could kill the bill. We'll have all the breaking news live from Capitol Hill. Those stories and an answer to the question, will Barack Obama use his middle name Hussein when he's sworn in? The president-elect has decided. We'll tell you his answer tonight on "360." Larry?

KING: That's "A.C." Thanks, Anderson. "A.C. 360," 10 Eastern, 7 Pacific. Anderson will be with us in a couple of minutes to preview tomorrow night's show. Why do you think so many people get angry at you?

CINDY ANTHONY: Because they only hear one side of the story. They only see what is put out there by the Nancy Graces of the world and the Leonard Padillas of the world. They don't look at themselves and look at their own families and figure out what they would do if one of their children was missing.

You know, there's a very -- there's a lot of people that are in our shoes. And there's a lot of people that will do one of several things. They'll either go into a recluse and they'll just withdraw. You could do that. Or you could get up every morning and you could fight for the people that you love.

And we're not going to -- I'm not going to sit back and worry about what people think about us, because my focus is on Caylee. And anybody that wants to criticize me for that, that's their problem.

KING: Has Nancy Grace convicted your daughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Nancy Grace is the reason there are people out there -- but I tell you what, there's just as many people that watch Nancy Grace that only watch her because they don't have local media like we do in Orlando, keeping up with Caylee. That's their only outlet. They don't believe in the things she's doing. In fact, it's fact they tell us when this is all done, when Caylee is home, they're never going to watch her again.

KING: Thank you both very much. And their Web site, if you want to keep in touch is helpfindcaylee.com. Helpfindcaylee.com.

NANCY GRACE

Small Child`s Remains Found Near Anthony Home

Aired December 11, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Absolutely stunning information, and Nancy will have all the latest details. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, skeletal remains believed to be little Caylee discovered in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthony home. A utility meter reader stumbles on a discarded garbage bag. When he kicks it, a human skull literally rolls out, the bag believed to contain a child`s full skeletal remains. In a stunning twist, it`s the same area investigators, searchers, volunteers previously combed, but at that time, everything was totally under water after flooding from Hurricane Faye.

Now, at this hour, the remains en route to Quantico`s FBI lab. And in the last hours, investigators confirm they want back inside the Anthony home and they are requesting another search warrant, even blocking off the Anthony home as we go to air. Grandparents George and Cindy jet back from the other side of the country, California, where they were following up on a potential Caylee sighting. They are not allowed by police in their own home tonight. Why?

And in a last-minute emergency motion by the defense for their own forensic experts to be present for all testing and autopsy on the remains, the January 5 trial date for the tot mom comes to a screeching halt. Sources say the defense team preparing a motion to change venue, get out of town.

Tonight, is this child`s skeleton -- are these discarded remains just yards from the Anthony home all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news out of Orange County, Florida. In Orlando, there may be a break, the break in the case of the missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials confirm the remains of a young child have been found. This is less than half a mile from Caylee Anthony`s grandparents` home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Orange County sheriff`s office says a meter reader found a bag this morning, and when the worker picked it up, a skull reportedly fell out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve exhumed the remains, and that has been transported to the medical examiner`s office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve also learned that authorities are seeking a search warrant for the Anthony home, where Caylee lived with her mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, that house is secured for a possibility of being more of a crime scene later.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: But do you think after this long, she`d still be local?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: There`s a possibility.

CINDY ANTHONY: What`s your gut telling you right now?

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: ... that she`s OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And your gut tells you that she`s close or some - - she`s -- she`s hiding?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, skeletal remains believed to be that of little Caylee discovered in a heavily wooded area just yards from the Anthony home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news and late developments in the case of the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony. A child`s remains have been found not very far from the grandparent`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, that`s the spot. The grandparents live 20 houses down here. That woods backs up to their house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom line is real simple, folks. We`ve recovered this human skull. Appears to be that of a small child. And now we have to -- the investigation continues.

CINDY ANTHONY: Everybody is looking for her. Are we going to be able to find her, do you think?

CASEY ANTHONY: I hope we can, Mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve been searching for this little girl for months. I mean, everybody is listening. America`s listening and wanting this little girl to be found. And I bet my bottom dollar that`s her they found today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner`s office has been in contact with the FBI, and they`re going back to take a look at some of the remains as we speak.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have secured the Anthony house pending more investigations. The detectives will be working there tonight.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, our whole life`s turned upside-down looking for this little girl.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Trust me, if I could be out there with you, I would be in a heartbeat, trying to help take the strain off of you, trying to find her. That`s all I want to do.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re going to see her little face again.

CASEY ANTHONY: I pray to God every day that we do.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey...

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, bring us up to date.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: I`ll tell you, Nancy, what an unbelievable story, an unbelievable turn of developments today. A utility worker, who wanted to go into a wooded area just basically to relief himself, found himself a plastic bag only three tenths of a mile from the Anthony household that we`re located at tonight. He kicked this plastic bag and a skull rolled out. He called 911, and the rest is history.

Cops converged on the scene. The crime scene unit came in. The command post came in. And right, now they don`t know if the remains of a young child is that of Caylee Anthony. They`re just saying it`s a young child. The body`s at the medical examiner`s office right now. It will go to Quantico, Virginia, to the FBI lab, where it will be given priority, a rush priority, as they call it.

Nancy, if you recall, in a release of a conversation from videotapes from the jail, at one time, Caylee -- or Casey said, I know she`s close by and she`s in a better place. Three tenths of a mile away -- is that what we`re talking about tonight, Nancy?

GRACE: Just 15 homes away from the Anthony home. Apparently, it`s just there at Hidden Oaks Elementary School, where not only tot mom Casey Anthony but her brother, Lee, both went to elementary school. This is between the Anthony home and the elementary school. It`s within walking distance, about a block from the Anthony home.

Out to Natisha Lance. She is there at the location where the remains were discovered. Natisha, it is my understanding that this is like a garbage bag, that it is opaque, that the meter reader could not see what was in the bag until he kicked it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. It is a garbage bag. I was hearing earlier reports that it was wrapped in duct tape, as well, and other reports that were saying that this bag was sealed. But obviously, if a head rolled out, that report might not be correct.

However this, meter reader immediately called for police. Police came to the scene. Forensics investigators, FBI, as well, were on the scene. They have taped off this area. There are deputies who will be here around the clock tonight to continue searching this area tomorrow, as well as the Anthony home.

GRACE: Joining me right now, also there at the location where the remains were discovered, is Tim Miller. He is the director of Texas Equusearch. He has searched exhaustively for little Caylee. He says the sources -- his sources say this is little Caylee.

Tim, your workers, volunteers, everybody has been in and around this area, but isn`t it true that at the time the search was going down, Hurricane Faye had come through and there was extensive flooding?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Nancy, if you recall -- and I got a lot of criticism for calling the search off the first time, but we actually lost a four-wheeler back in this same exact area that one of the volunteers was on the four-wheeler and water went totally over it. And the next day is when I called the search off, and it`s the best choice I ever made because if you recall back then, I said, You know what? If this little girl is under the water and a horse steps on her or a four-wheeler goes over or even a person steps on her just thinking it`s some type of debris underneath the water, then we`ve jeopardized any future search efforts.

And then when we came back the second time, this water where she was found -- and I actually went right back to the scene with investigators a couple of hours ago. But this water was still high when we came back the second time. And a neighbor actually said it was about a week-and-a-half ago or two weeks at the most when the water receded enough that you could see anything there.

So this is an area that we tried to search. Weather conditions just would not allow it. And I will never, ever regret calling the search off at that time because we could have done far more damage than good if we had...

GRACE: Tim, I remember that very night -- I remember talking to you about that night on the show, asking you why you pulled out. And you made it very clear that you were so afraid that in all the water -- it was feet deep -- that you were afraid if Caylee`s remains were there, they would be ruined or scattered and would never be found. And boy, were you right, Tim Miller. You never made a better call in your life.

MILLER: Thank you.

GRACE: I want to go back to Natisha Lance, our producer who has been on the scene from the get-go. She`s there with Tim Miller at the location where the remains were found just hours ago, believed to be those of little Caylee. I want you to describe the location. How is it, Natisha Lance, that this is 15 homes away from the Anthony home, but yet it`s heavily wooded? When I see their home, it looks like a suburban neighborhood.

LANCE: Absolutely. Well, this is an area that is behind the subdivision a little ways. Now, it`s a densely wooded area. They say that it`s pretty thick back there. But they also say that these remains were about 25 feet off of the curb. So they were a ways back, so that if anyone was passing by, they wouldn`t see it at a first glance.

Now, they are also saying -- this area, once again, when Tim Miller went back to search, it was closed off because they were planning to do some developing back there for some newer homes. But it is an area that is directly behind the Anthonys` neighborhood, like you said, not far from the home, about 15 houses down.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. She is there at the Anthony home, joining us. Kathi, what more do we know, if anything, about the bag itself? Does it look as if it had been through the flooding? Was it weather-beaten? What do we know about it? And is it true that trash bags were taken during the initial search out of the Anthony home?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: I don`t know about trash bags being taken from the home. I never saw that on the search warrant list. But I do -- I can tell you that investigators feel very good about the evidence they have found in that bag, a child`s skull, bones. And I am told there`s something else in that bag, possibly clothing. But they feel very, very, very encouraged by this discovery today.

I don`t know whether the bag was weather-beaten, but apparently, it was under water for several months. And it`s plastic, and plastic doesn`t go away, as we know. So what I can tell you so far about that.

GRACE: Well, you know, to Mike Brooks, that`s highly probative, is the bag looks as if it has been through the Hurricane Faye, it was there before the waters. That can also date when it was placed there. And today, a spokesperson actually said there were no clothes in the bag with the skeleton. But something about what they found today, Mike Brooks, make police want another search warrant to go back in the home.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely, Nancy. There`s something there in that bag that they can match (ph) and say, Hey, we want to go back and get something else from that house to maybe make a comparison. But we`ll know when all the evidence comes back from the FBI lab in Quantico, and it could be this weekend or maybe Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A utility worker makes a gruesome discovery in central Florida this morning, a bag with the skeletal remains of a child found less than a quarter of a mile from Caylee Anthony`s home. The little girl hasn`t been seen since June, and her mom, Casey, is charged with her murder.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We want Caylee back (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. All I want is to see Caylee.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. Do you know -- do you know what today`s date is?

CASEY ANTHONY: I believe a week until her birthday, I know.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, we have six days.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know that.

GEORGE ANTHONY: So you know, I just -- I want to have that big party for her. We were first having just a little one, but we want to have a big one, you know?

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I want to be home so we can do that, Dad.

(INAUDIBLE) thumb, Mum`s index finger, you`re the middle finger, which was funny because you`re the big guy. I`m the ring finger. Caylee`s the pinky finger. And you know, there`s two fingers that are missing right now, but our hand will be complete, just as our family will be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Dr. Marshall, I`m sure you`re familiar with all the late- breaking developments regarding the discovery of those remains just a stone`s throw from the Anthony home.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.

GRACE: If this is little Caylee, if the tot mom knows about the remains, responsible for the remains, this means that all we have been listening to all this time of her jailhouse recordings, she`s been taking them on the ride of a lifetime.

MARSHALL: Well, and she`s created this huge tale, this huge delusion, and Cindy and George have stepped into the delusion and become delusional with her. And now if this is little Caylee`s remains, I`m afraid George and Cindy may delude themselves again, saying, Well, Zanny did it, that the nanny took her and now she killed her.

But the other thing, Nancy, she put her in a garbage bag. She treated her like she was trash. What do you put in a garbage bag? Something that has absolutely no value to you. This little girl`s life has been trashed, her future, her opportunities, and all the relationships she had with her family and with the people around them. It has all been trashed.

GRACE: Eleanor, thinking about how, forensically, they can tie this all together, do you recall what was found in the tot mom`s trunk?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Remember, Nancy, it was a garbage bag with an old pizza box and some other items that were supposedly decomposing, where we really had the odor of body decomposition.

GRACE: And Mike Brooks, garbage bag in the drunk where the smell of decomposition was prevalent, also now a garbage bag with these remains. You want to guess that they`re from the same garbage bag lot, from the same store, from the same package?

BROOKS: There`s a good possibility, Nancy. And one of the other things they`ll do, they`ll try to match up the perforations. When you pull a garbage bag out of the box and you rip it apart, you see the little perforations. They`ll try to match that. But they`re also talking about tape. That could also yield some extremely valuable evidence, possibly some fingerprint evidence, even though, Nancy, it was still under water. If that tape was on the plastic, they can take it back to the FBI lab and be able to separate that to see if there was any kind of fingerprint evidence that was left on the adhesive side of that tape.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. She`s standing by at the Anthony home. Why aren`t the Anthonys allowed back in their home tonight, Kathi?

BELICH: I don`t know that they`re not allowed here. I don`t think the deputies wanted anyone else in that home. From what I heard earlier, the Anthonys did not want to come back here. They got to the airport, and deputies took them elsewhere. And we are hearing that there could be a search warrant served on the house some time, possibly soon. We`re not sure.

GRACE: OK, you know, Natisha Lance...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Natisha Lance, our sources are telling us police had the Anthonys not go to their home tonight. Why?

LANCE: That`s correct. Because the home could possibly potentially become a part of the crime scene investigation. As you stated before, Nancy, apparently, there was something that was found where these remains were found that could possibly be connected back to the Anthony home. So they are in the process of trying to obtain that search warrant to be able to search the Anthony home. The home -- from what I`ve been told from Orange County sheriff`s office, is that the home is cordoned off and nobody is allowed back into that home right now.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner. Dr. Bell, with a child age 2, 3, can you look at the remains and determine if it`s a boy or girl?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: I think that`s going to be very difficult. When they`re that young, the skeletons look very much alike. So I tend to doubt it.

GRACE: Then how do you make the differentiation?

BELL: Well, you might look at the pelvis. You might look at the -- if there`s any soft tissue, that might suggest...

GRACE: Well, do you really believe there`s going to be soft tissue six months later?

BELL: There might be.

GRACE: Really?

BELL: Yes. If it`s -- if the body has been in a bag and under water and away from any animals or maggots, there might still be a good deal of soft tissue.

GRACE: If there is any soft tissue, would you be able to determine the presence of chloroform?

BELL: You might, yes.

GRACE: How?

BELL: Through use of toxicology.

GRACE: Now, you just told me you cannot look at the body, the skeletal remains, and tell if it`s a boy or girl at this young age. But then you told me you can look at the pelvis. So which one is it, can you look at it and tell or not?

BELL: You might or you might not.

GRACE: Gotcha. OK. So it just depends, really.

Out to the lines. Tammy in Ohio. Hi, Tammy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I was wondering, if they find enough evidence to put the death sentence back on the table, could she go and say, What if we don`t have a trial and I`ll just plead guilty, and can you take off the death sentence and I`ll just serve life?

GRACE: She can only do that if the state agrees to do that.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor who has handled death penalty cases, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney, Peter Odom, also a veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You know, Eleanor, right up until the trial commences, the state can change its mind. They originally said they were taking the DP off the table. Now that can change.

DIXON: Exactly, especially because you have an aggravating circumstance. The child is under 10 years of age, so the state now, with the discovery of this body, could request the death penalty.

GRACE: But Peter, the defense -- the defendant can`t just go up to the microphone in court and say, Oh, I plead guilty. Gotcha. You can`t take the death penalty now. That can`t be done.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. No, that can`t happen. The prosecution will have a chance to go back and seek the death penalty, if they want to. And the prosecution`s case just got a lot stronger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, it`s very early in this discovery to provide any additional information that can compromise our case. We want to proceed carefully, methodically, and allow our investigators and our forensics teams to provide the information to our investigators that is necessary to proceed with this investigation.

QUESTION: Do you know how long the DNA testing will take so that you can actually confirm whether...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: ... excuse me -- whether you can confirm whether it`s Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... forensics units for the FBI lab to continue to do their follow-up work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Remains found just about 15 homes away from the Anthony home believed to be those of little Caylee.

Leonard Padilla, weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s -- it`s -- it`s good that there`s going to be some finality, I think, and I`m...

GRACE: Well, this is what you`ve said all along was going happen.

PADILLA: I said to -- yes, but I also know that you`re the one that kept it at the forefront of America to where when that man, call of nature made him go into the bushes there, he had in his mind that there was a bag there, and he reached down and picked it up. How many people don`t reach down and pick up a bag? And it`s -- you know, God put this whole thing together right at the last minute there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Let`s go straight to the scene of the Anthony home. You`re seeing right now police have converged the Anthony home and they have surrounded it with crime scene tape.

WILLIAMS: Nancy, this is an unbelievable sight that we`re looking at right now. Just moments ago sheriff`s department crime scene investigators rolled up in their minivans and immediately got out of the truck -- their truck and started putting around crime scene tape around the entire Anthony house, at least the front.

They`re asking people to move. This is still a busy street. All the camera people from local and national television stations, but this is breaking live on your show right now. Several sheriff`s deputies are here, probably a dozen or so putting up that crime scene tape, and this is now an official crime scene which we all thought was going happen sooner rather than later and this has come true, Nancy.

GRACE: What do you mean, Mark Williams? This is a crime scene. Are you suggesting that this is where little Caylee was killed?

WILLIAMS: I`m not suggesting anything. This is just part of the ongoing investigation. Earlier today we had an individual which was reportedly Lee Anthony`s girlfriend come into the house.

She was hustled out of there real quick and then John Allen, the lead investigator, came over and talked to her. She finally left, but this -- they set up shop here right after 10:00 this morning saying that it`s a potential crime scene. Now it is a crime scene.

Who knows? Remember the cadaver dogs hit back here twice in the backyard plus in Caylee`s car and -- so I think they`re going to go over this house now with a fine-toothed comb, Nancy.

GRACE: But to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, consultant on the Anthony defense team, is it too late to get forensic evidence?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: I don`t think so, Nancy. I think what they`re looking for are perhaps a package of garbage bags, black plastic garbage bags and perhaps duct tape so that they can make comparisons with the evidence that they just identified.

Of course, we`re getting ahead of ourselves. The identification of the skeletal remains is really step one, but this is absolutely required if they`re going make any kind of comparison of evidence.

GRACE: To our attorneys, and we`re taking your calls live. To Renee Rockwell, is this the moment that the tot mom better talk if she wants to save her own skin?

ROCKWELL: Not without some kind of deal, Nancy, because what has just been eliminated is that one juror that might have held out and said I`m not going to convict this gal because we don`t even know if the baby`s dead.

That has been removed from the equation. The dynamics have changed and the work is just about to start now. Now it`s time for her attorneys to man up.

GRACE: But, you know, let`s go to the other lawyers.

Eleanor Dixon, she doesn`t even have a bargaining chip anymore. If this is little Caylee which sources within the FBI say it is, she has nothing to bargain with anymore. I mean she`s -- there`s no location of the body to reveal. What does she have to give the state if they need anymore?

DIXON: She has absolutely nothing, Nancy. It`s the icing on the cake if this is little Caylee. And if I were the prosecution I`d go full steam ahead.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER SCHAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right now the finding of the body has answered only one of the many questions that surround this and right now Casey.

GRACE: Oh, really? What question do you have left?

SCHAFFER: The cause of death, manner of death.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAFFER: Where the crime occurred, none of that is known yet. Now that might be revealed, but it`s not known yet.

GRACE: The state doesn`t need to prove that.

SCHAFFER: But, Nancy, jurors are going to have those questions and until the state can sew that up with hard evidence it`s still many questions remain.

GRACE: Renee?

ROCKWELL: And also whodunit. This does not mean that Caylee committed this -- I`m sorry, Casey committed the crime, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, Renee.

ROCKWELL: It doesn`t mean.

GRACE: That second verse is the same as the first one. Do you have a new anthem, please let me know.

Out to the line, Lisa in Pennsylvania, hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering if authorities were looking into the possibility of whether the bag was placed or buried somewhere else and washed to this location by Hurricane Fay and that`s why EquuSearch didn`t see it.

GRACE: What do you make of that, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: There is a possibility if it was in a shallow grave that this water may have popped it to the surface. Now one of the things they will do, remember there was a shovel in this equation that they did seize from the home that she had borrowed from a neighbor.

Let`s say, got it from a neighbor. Now they would try to take -- soil comparisons from that shovel to the soil that`s there at the scene. Now it would be a lot easier to work that crime scene if the ground was dry, but they can still work it wet. They can -- they`re going go back there tomorrow, and if I were them I would be digging a little bit deeper just in case that was -- she was in a shallow grave.

Also that whole area, surround that whole wooded area tomorrow will be searched thoroughly to see if there`s any other evidence that may be of value.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, the director of Texas EquuSearch who has searched exhaustively for little Caylee, you know one of the first things the defense is going say is when it finally goes on trial, Texas EquuSearch searched this area, volunteer search police, search -- they didn`t see the bag, now the bag is suddenly here six months later. It was obviously put there while the tot mom was in jail.

MILLER: You know what? The bag was not put there later, Nancy. I was actually out there at that scene today. It wasn`t buried. It didn`t float up. You can see where the bag was actually laying on the ground. The weeds are very thick there so it didn`t float. It would have got caught up in something.

Whoever put that bag there pulled up alongside the road, threw the bag out there in that little weeded area. So there was no digging, there was no nothing. You can actually see in the grassy area where someone had sat there for a long period of time. So it was set there. It wasn`t buried. Trust me.

GRACE: So you can actually tell, and this is possible, everyone. You can tell if an object has been sitting on the grass for a long period of time. There`s not any grass under it, things have gotten on top of it and around it.

How could you tell, Tim, from looking at it that it had been there for a while?

MILLER: Well, you can tell that there was an indentation in the ground where something that -- you know that had a little bit of weight to it had laid there, kind of like if you would have put a log or something some place and six months later picked the log up, how there`s just a small indentation and the grass is dead underneath it.

And as wet as it`s been since the -- tropical storm came in, you know, it`s pretty obvious that it`s something that has been sitting there the entire time and it`s something that truly, Nancy, was not findable, had been under water and according to the neighbor it was a week and a half ago when the water receded enough to be able to see anything back there.

So you know, if it wouldn`t have been for that tropical storm, believe me, Caylee`s little remains would have been found a long, long time ago, but you know the good news is finally and finally.

GRACE: Some answers.

MILLER: . after this long period of time, she can come home.

GRACE: Have you spoken to the Anthonys?

MILLER: We can take her home.

GRACE: Have you spoken to the Anthonys?

MILLER: I haven`t spoken to them. I haven`t spoken to them yet. I`m flying to Birmingham tomorrow, but I do want to say at least hi to George and Cindy and hug their neck and just let them know that -- you know how bad we feel for them.

GRACE: Tim, did you see the bag? You`ve been there on the scene all day.

MILLER: No, I actually got out here after the bag was removed and I got such a close relationship with law enforcement that they took us back there and we sat down and talked. And you know it`s.

GRACE: Was it an opaque bag? Was it black? A black or white garbage bag?

MILLER: From what I understand it`s a black garbage bag and there was some duct tape around the bag, and -- but no, personally, I did not see the bag.

GRACE: Tim.

MILLER: . but I could see where the bag was laying.

GRACE: Yes. We have heard reports that there was duct tape actually on the remains. Do you know if there was duct tape on the skull?

MILLER: I`m hearing that report, but I didn`t ask law enforcement anything, but I certainly anticipate in the search warrant they`re going to be searching for probably duct tape to see if it matches the duct tape that was found there on the scene.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, if duct tape is on the skull, bye-bye manslaughter because that means the child was taped around the face. That is premeditated.

DIXON: Yes, you`re exactly right, Nancy, and that certainly shows an abandoned and malignant heart which you want for murder one.

GRACE: What about it, Renee?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, why wouldn`t the duct tape have been placed in the child after she was dead. This does not mean at this point.

GRACE: It doesn`t even make any sense.

ROCKWELL: I mean you can still duct -- duct tape a body.

GRACE: Why?

ROCKWELL: Who knows she might.

GRACE: Why?

ROCKWELL: Whoever.

GRACE: No, no. Next time you say something, please, please, let it make sense.

ROCKWELL: OK.

GRACE: It doesn`t make sense to put duct tape on a dead body.

ROCKWELL: Unless you might be duct taping it to a heavy brick or something to perhaps.

GRACE: But there`s not a heavy brick.

ROCKWELL: A heavy piece of object or whatever.

GRACE: A garbage bag?

ROCKWELL: We don`t know.

GRACE: OK.

ROCKWELL: . if they were trying to maybe -- whoever was disposing of the body make the body sink.

GRACE: Sink in what? It was grass.

ROCKWELL: It could have been partial low under water at some point, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

ROCKWELL: And it moved with the water.

GRACE: OK. OK. I can go with that.

To Bonnie in Texas, hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. The question I have, I`m really thinking that Cindy has been emotionally blackmailed by Casey because that night that she choked her, they had that real bad fight, that was the longest she had spent away from her mother with that little baby, that whole month after that happened.

And I`m thinking now is the time, even though I feel so sorry for Cindy, now is the time for her to stop enabling Casey and go ahead and let her know she`s got to tell the truth.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, do you think that`s even possible?

MARSHALL: It may not be possible, but I think Bonnie is right, when something bad happens to another person we blame ourselves, and Cindy might be blaming herself because of the fight that ensued in her house that night and that all of this happened afterwards.

Instead of blaming herself she needs to look to her own daughter Casey and really compel her to tell the truth, but I don`t know if that`s really possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning at approximately 9:30 a.m. we had a call to the sheriff`s office regarding a discovery that was made by an Orange County meter employee who had gone into the woods.

A bag was found there and skeletal remains were recovered or found at the scene. We currently have our investigators on scene evaluating the situation. Forensics unit as well has responded. The FBI is also on scene as we continue to process the scene, the FBI as well and their lab will provide assistance in the coming days.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I realize that the circumstances as they are would lead most people to believe that these are Caylee`s remains, but I must -- I must stress it`s not -- people have been wrong before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Jose Baez in the last moments responding to the discovery of remains that are believed to be those of little Caylee. Just a stone`s throw from the Anthony home right near the elementary school, Hidden Oaks Elementary, where tot mom Casey Anthony and brother Lee Anthony went to school.

He also revealed that the tot mom had to take a sedative when she learned the remains were discovered.

Mike Brooks, I bet she did.

BROOKS: I bet she did, Nancy, and you know, with this evidence they have. And you know, speaking of Mr. Baez. You know he`s filed an emergency motion to, quote, "preserve and inspect evidence and participate in forensic testing."

And then part of that he says, if the body is determined to be of that Caylee Marie Anthony then the defense would request that their own experts be permitted to be present during any forensic testing done including, but not limited to DNA or autopsy.

Well, let me just tell you. They probably already started the autopsy. They`re going to have a hearing tomorrow at 11:30 in court. But I can tell you, Nancy, when it comes to the FBI lab, it is highly unlikely that the FBI will allow any outside forensics -- Mr. Kobilinsky or whomever to go into that lab.

They will allow them to review the protocols of the FBI lab and the initial reports, but I was talking to one of my sources today at the FBI lab and they said it is highly unlikely that they`ll allow anyone from the defense team into the lab to watch the DNA testing.

GRACE: Kobi, is that true?

KOBILINSKY: I think that is true. I don`t know whether they would be forced to open up the lab under court order, but I -- I just don`t know. It`s a legal question.

GRACE: Doubtful. Doubtful.

OK. Let`s go back to the scene. Mark Williams is standing by with WNDB Newstalk 1150 along our producer, Natisha Lance, there in Orlando.

Mark Williams, you`re at the home. Tell me what`s happening?

WILLIAMS: Well, in the past couple of minutes since I`ve talked to you, more than a -- dozen sheriff`s deputies from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office has -- have arrived on the scene and various types of vehicles from SUVs to regular squad cars to unmarked cars.

They immediately came out. They put crime scene tape up around the Anthony house, the front of it, at least. This is now a crime scene. They want to get that -- those search warrants so they can get in there and give this house a second look.

There is more than likely some evidence that they can find that would tie the -- plastic bag to Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing live feed outside the tot mom`s parents` home. The Anthonys` home. The Anthonys have been barred from coming into their home tonight. They are just touching down, a couple of hours ago, from California.

As you all know, they were in California following up on a lead that little Caylee had been sighted at a -- restaurant named Javier`s. They were told these remains have been found and they jetted back immediately.

According to our sources, they were wearing their "Find Caylee" t- shirts on the plane and appeared to be very calm. Now that may not make any sense to a lot of people, but to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, they may very well -- refuse to believe this is actually little Caylee.

MARSHALL: Well, as they said earlier, they`ve developed this almost delusional belief that the little girl is alive or that somebody took her, so if the little girl -- if these are her remains they may tell themselves that Zanny did it. So in that case Casey is still exonerated.

But you know, Nancy, one in four violent crimes occur near -- in or near the victim`s home and when a child is a victim of homicide, they`re often stashed within three blocks of the family home. So this totally fits the stats of what happens with a child`s homicide.

GRACE: Well, you know, I want to go back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter. You and Brooks have seen a lot of cases, not on the legal end, but on the investigative and bounty hunting end.

Long story short, take a look at Scott Peterson. He was a fisherman, he was a golfer. Where did he hide the body? At the marina. It washed up on the shore.

Tot mom Casey Anthony, this is her stomping grounds. This is her home. Where are you going to hide the body? Out in the woods behind the house.

PADILLA: As the doctor said, the statistics that have been compiled by the FBI through the years proved -- she hit the nail on the head. I mean, that street where the body was found is -- you go straight down from the house, you make a right, there`s a little dead end there and 25 foot.

And it also fits everything else that was said that she wasn`t going dig a hole. She wasn`t going to go deep into the forest and it`s a situation where she basically followed her own precepts on what to do. She told everybody it was close to the house. Caylee`s close. Close by.

GRACE: She did keep saying that behind bars.

PADILLA: Kept saying that.

GRACE: We have that sound, we`re about do play it for you.

Mike Brooks, I mean, what`s the likelihood that somebody would get Caylee, kill Caylee and then take her all of the way back home to suburban neighborhood to dump the body right near the Anthony home. It doesn`t make sense.

BROOKS: Nancy, it doesn`t make sense at all. Then Dr. Bethany, as was you`re saying, I`ve talked with experts to talk about the same thing when they have a case like this, statistics prove that you stay in an area that and usually it`s right off of the path and that`s what we have here.

Highly unlikely that somebody brought it in there -- from outside and dumped it right near the house.

GRACE: Take a listen to tot mom behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My gut feelings? As Mom asked me yesterday, and they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court. In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still fells like she`s, she`s close to home.

L. ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my, my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean obviously I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.

L. ANTHONY: Right.

C. ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable. Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, a lot of people think they can explain it tonight.

Out to the lines, Theresa in Illinois. Hi, Theresa. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi Nancy. My question is, do you think that the defense now will try to do an insanity case?

GRACE: I think that may be their only alternative at this point, Theresa.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, this is a human skull and it looks like that of a small child. Don`t know about plastic bag or anything else. Don`t know. No clothes that we know of now, but understand Dr. James is here and we can`t talk about the evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is the search for little Caylee over? Remains have been found just yards away from the Anthony home in a heavily wooded area.

To Margie in West Virginia, hi Margie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering if you noticed when Cindy was in the jail talking to Casey, I don`t know if anybody else noticed this, that when she was talking to her, she seemed to be like walking on egg shells. Everything that she asked Casey about, she just seemed like she was like afraid to ask anything.

GRACE: I have noticed that. Why is that, Bethany?

MARSHALL: I think she wants to believe her daughter is frightened and vulnerable. Because if she`s frightened and vulnerable, she wouldn`t be homicidal, mean and cruel and putting duct tape around a child`s head.

GRACE: And very quickly, back to Natisha at the location where the remains were discovered. What`s happening there now? Are they still working?

LANCE: They are still working, Nancy. There is still some light down at the location where the remains were found. They recently just put up some cones on the street so that nobody can get through.

There is actually an Orange County Sheriff`s..

GRACE: OK.

LANCE: . vehicle parked that is here. Nobody is getting through tonight.

GRACE: And Mark Williams, what about at the home?

WILLIAMS: Well, the home is still active. It`s now the crime scene has expanded. They put some tape going back to the backyard. They`ve expanded this crime scene. They`re waiting for a search warrant.

Nobody has entered the house yet. There are seven deputies here. The street is blocked off and it`s been an interesting night tonight for you, Nancy.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant First Class Gerard Reed, 40, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, killed Iraq. On a third tour, a 22-year army veteran, highly decorated, awarded seven army commendation medals, nine army achievement medals.

Set to retire after this tour, dreamed of teaching, an ordained minister, loved preaching the Gospel and talking on the phone with hours with his 16-year-old son. Leaves behind grieving parents, Bobby and Clyde, four siblings, including brother Cedric, also serving the army, widow, T`Wona, son Isaiah.

Gerard Reed, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Lisa, John and Steve. Let`s see them.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/11/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Latest Caylee Anthony Case Details

Aired December 12, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Major bombshells tonight in the disappearance of a 2-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, skeletal remains of a small child discovered just yards from the Anthony home. And now it`s looking more and more likely that these are the remains of little Caylee Anthony. In the last hours, the defense announces in open court that the body size and hair color matches Caylee`s.
And we learn of another shocking discovery at the scene. Our sources reveal duct tape was found over the mouth of the child`s remains. Was the young victim silenced before her death? Tonight, we will play for you the stunning 911 call made immediately after the remains were found. Plus, the local sheriff reveals that evidence at the scene leads police straight back to the Anthony home.

Real-life CSI teams swarm the tot mom`s home, removing multiple bags and boxes of evidence, including vacuum cleaners, a pillow and pesticide tanks. Tonight, are the skull and bones all that is left of little Caylee Anthony?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was at about 9:30 yesterday morning, after the meter reader walked 20 to 30 feet into these woods less than a half mile from Caylee Anthony`s house to relieve himself. He saw a black trash bag and poked it.

Investigators were back again today, sifting through dirt by hand in the immediate area where the remains were found, looking for any other evidence that might have been left behind. And we understand they have found additional evidence here.

The remains were not just a skull and bones, but hair and some remaining human flesh. Duct tape was found over the mouth of the child`s skull, stuck to some of that tissue. The tape and remaining tissue could hold clues, possibly fingerprints or traces of chemicals that could tell us who killed the child and how.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators with a search warrant removed more evidence from the house, like this blue and gray shop vac, a pillow, pool chemicals and pesticides.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe that this is Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we believe there`s certainly enough of an indication right now for us to come here with a motion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Fast-breaking developments tonight, skeletal remains of a small child discovered just yards from the Anthony home match the hair color and bone measurements of little Caylee Anthony. And tonight, we have the stunning 911 call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve -- this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m letting you speak right now with a representative of our field services (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull from (INAUDIBLE) that we believe is human.

911 OPERATOR: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw, in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the...

911 OPERATOR: Oh! Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Suburban and Golden what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

911 OPERATOR: Chickasaw. I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. Just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

911 OPERATOR: East side of Chickasaw. And what is your party`s name that we`re going to meet with? He`s not touching this, I hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he`s a meter reader.

911 OPERATOR: Meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and I`ll just tell him to stay at that location and just stay away from everything.

911 OPERATOR: OK. And if you can transfer (ph) to him to please not walk into the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

911 OPERATOR: And that would be great, just in case there is something. It may be nothing, but just in case. And you`re from what department?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Utilities customer service.

911 OPERATOR: Utilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you need any information, my phone number is...

911 OPERATOR: Go ahead and send a call up for a deputy to meet with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

911 OPERATOR: And is we`ll see you there very shortly. What type of vehicle is he going to be in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably a Colorado, small Colorado, white...

911 OPERATOR: White?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It will have an Orange County insignia on it.

911 OPERATOR: OK. White Colorado truck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: And with Orange County markings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: OK. We`ll see you there very shortly, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

911 OPERATOR: Bye-bye.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So many developments on so many fronts. Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, the news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, you are near the very spot where the remains were discovered. What is the very latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, it looks like they`re, first, wrapping up this crime scene slowly but surely, Jane. They`ve been here since 5:00 o`clock this morning. They`ve been going through everything, sifting through the -- even the ground that`s around there.

But late today, the Orange County sheriff`s office, a spokesman for that office, Jane, said they are pretty much positive that the remains found here at that site in back of us belong to Caylee Marie Anthony. And the reason given by SO spokesman Carlos Padilla is the fact that there are no kids missing in the range of 3 years of age. The remains are consistent with a 3-year-old, and it is near the Anthony homestead. Would you believe three tenths of a mile away, maybe 15 doors away, where this -- where the remains were found yesterday.

In addition, defense attorney Linda Kenny Baden (ph) says attorney for Casey Anthony Jose Baez was told that the measurements of the bones and the color of the hair match Caylee Marie Anthony -- Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, so many developments once again coming from the sheriff`s department. Let`s listen to the sheriff himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF: There`s certain things that they want to be looking for. Some of those clues came from the crime scene yesterday, and a lot of items were taken into our custody for review.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you can`t go into detail, but there was something that was found that made you want to search the grandparents` home?

BEARY: Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Sheriff Kevin Beary on ABC`s "Good Morning America" after detectives removed evidence from the Anthony home last night.

Let`s go to Natisha Lance, a NANCY GRACE producer who has been on scene from the very beginning. Where are the remains tonight, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Those remains are with the Orange County medical examiner`s office, Jane. And I spoke to Deputy Carlos Padilla tonight, and he told me that they will remain there. What is going to happen is that they will have a conversation with the FBI, figure out which items might need to go to Quantico for further testing. But that does not necessarily mean that all of the remains will be shipped off to Quantico for that additional testing.

Now, they said something in court today, saying that there has been no tentative ID that has been made on these remains. However, the medical examiner`s office did release a press release later on this afternoon saying that preliminary results will not be released, which is a little interesting, saying they have no tentative ID, but now they`re saying even if they do have them, they`re not releasing any preliminary results on those remains.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, I want to bring in the attorneys because what`s so shocking here, Joey Jackson and Darryl Cohen, is that the claim that they have tentatively identified this child as little Caylee Anthony came from the defense attorneys, and you have the actual authorities saying, No, no, wait, that`s premature, we`ve still got to do our DNA test. Isn`t that backwards? Isn`t it the defense attorneys who are supposed to say, No, it`s not little Caylee, and the prosecution is supposed to say, Yes, it is?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Jane, it absolutely is. But here`s the real issue. Now, what has happened in this case, Jane, it has moved from a circumstantial case -- you might remember early on, they were saying she didn`t report it. She ultimately told the police conflicting things. There was evidence of decomposition in her trunk, you know, the Internet searches with the chloroform. This takes that out of the spectrum of circumstantial evidence and allows the direct evidence to establish guilt in this case, and that`s what`s so significant. If there are prints on that duct tape, is there chloroform attached to that body, that`s the significance of this development.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. Now, Darryl Cohen, the reason why the defense was saying it is Caylee is because they wanted the right to go in and observe the autopsy. The judge said, No way. And the prosecution was saying, No, no, we don`t know for sure it`s her, so we can`t let the defense team in. Is that a fair assessment?

DARRYL COHEN, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY`S FORMER FIANCE, JESSE GRUND: I think it`s a very fair assessment. I also think it`s something, a bone that the defense is throwing out, trying to say, when they`re not allowed in, that the scene is going to be contaminated. As a result of that, our experts are not going to be able to show what really needs to be shown. It`s just a game they`re playing, and it`s not a very good one, quite frankly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ve got the phone lines lighting up, stacked up over LaGuardia here. Sherry in Michigan. Your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think since Casey had fought with her mother that day and knew that her mother loved Caylee so much, that she could have killed Caylee to punish her mother?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. That`s a heavy-duty question. I want to bring in Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter. He has searched for Caylee Anthony. And I want to dovetail that with another comment today. We have observed - - this is another breaking development -- that the Anthonys returned home from California. They were not initially allowed into their home because they had gotten a search warrant, and they were actually -- authorities were searching that home and removing all sorts of items. And we`re going to get to all of the specific items they removed in a bit because it`s a fascinating list.

Meantime, Cindy and Anthony (SIC) have now returned home. They went in. They grabbed their two dogs, they grabbed their suitcase and they left. What is the significance of that? Is it for their safety, or is it possibly, Leonard, that the information that they`ve gotten from authorities has chilled them to the bone, that they may be thinking, Oh, my gosh, perhaps the child died in this home. I don`t want any part of this home.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No, it`s not that. I think they had a pretty significant belief that the child was dead prior to that. I think it`s just readjusting their defense strategy as to how they`re going to handle it. They`re probably huddling with their attorneys right now. Somebody said that they were actually filming a Larry King show.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard, how could you possibly say that they were pretty convinced that their grandchild was dead when they flew to California to follow a sighting, when they have said repeatedly over and over again, We believe our grandchild is alive? I mean, you`re not a mind reader, you can`t go in there and create thoughts in their head that they may not be having.

PADILLA: George was a homicide detective for 10 years in Warren, Ohio. He knows what the smell of a decomposing body is. Cindy`s been a nurse for years and years, and she knows what a decomposing body smells like. And Cindy`s the one that posted on July the 3rd, My Caylee is gone.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, OK. Then basically, you`re saying that everything that they`re doing is a big act up until this point, like going to the sightings. But let`s ask this question...

PADILLA: The defense strategy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, they`re going to have to come up with a new one, let me tell you that.

PADILLA: No, they`re going to blame it on Zenaida, and say she dumped by the family house so that she could frame them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but Zenaida doesn`t exist.

PADILLA: We know that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Zenaida that they found has nothing to do with this case. Zanny the nanny is a figment of her imagination.

PADILLA: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we`re going to have to see what they`re going to come up with now as a defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Science is science. It should speak for itself, and it shouldn`t be manipulated. And if it can, then it`s not science. We have qualified people, the best in the business, reviewing this evidence so we will be able to actually verify it independently. And that`s all we`re asking for, nothing more. And we`re not even asking to hide it. We`re allowing them to observe whatever it is we do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve -- this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m letting you speak right now with a representative from our field services (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull from (INAUDIBLE) that we believe human.

911 OPERATOR: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw, in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the...

911 OPERATOR: Oh! Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Suburban and Golden what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

911 OPERATOR: Chickasaw. I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. Just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Remember that if this is the daughter of Casey Anthony, this little -- is little Caylee Anthony, she is still the mother of this child, and she`s still presumed innocent. And like any person, she would have a right to see remains, to view remains, and to, hopefully, deal with the remains in a manner that would be appropriate scientifically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Bombshell developments in the Caylee Anthony case. Orange County, Florida, sheriff`s officials say they are confident the skull and bones of a child is that of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. The phone lines lighting up. We`re going to get to them in just a moment.

But first I have to bring you up to date with Drew Petrimoulx, reporter from WDBO radio, on what they found inside the Anthony home. Now, Drew, the sheriff`s officials said that something at the crime scene with the remains was a clue that led them right back to that home. What did they take out of that home?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, first I think we should note that the house has already been searched. This was a third search, so it had to be something that was at this crime scene that led them back to the house. And what they ended up taking out was a vacuum, a vacuum container that would collect stuff off of the carpet when you vacuum, also pool-cleaner chemicals and pesticides. And then they also took out some pillows from the house. We`re not really sure why they took the pillows out, but obviously, something from the crime scene led them back there to remove that, as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner, obviously, the knowledge and the news, courtesy of our producer, Natisha Lance, that the duct tape was apparently found over the mouth of the remains is shocking and it`s gruesome and it`s grisly. How does that relate to what they removed from the home? Could it be something on the duct tape that they`re trying to match up with fibers from the home? Particularly when you think of the vacuum cleaner is removed.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, this tape is very important because, obviously. it was placed there when the child was alive -- otherwise there wouldn`t be no reason to place it -- and because the sticky part of the tape, there might be fibers, there might be hairs. There might be things which are inside the plastic bag which were discarded from the house, like a cigarette pack which is Grandpa`s or an envelope or other stuff which can be actually directly connected to what is in the house.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want to ask the attorneys in a second how that evidence would stack up in a criminal trial.

But first, let`s go to the phones. Robin in Michigan, your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first I just want to say how absolutely heartsick I am over what this little baby girl must have went through in her last minutes. But I`m thinking maybe she was suffocated. And if so, the tape would have fibers from a pillow. You said pillows were removed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what kind of -- I think it just shows the proof that this wouldn`t be an accident. Why would she place tape over her baby`s mouth? I mean, if this was an accident and she was panicked and tried to get rid of it -- but I think this shows how diabolical she is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think excellent question. Donald Schweitzer -- you`re a former detective with Santa Ana PD. You`ve heard what they removed from the house. You`ve heard what they found at the remains -- the duct tape, the plastic bag, the skull, the bones. What do you make -- how can you put those two together to try to read into what the detectives are thinking right now?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Well, Jane, what I`m thinking of is, is that they found some cloth, maybe some kind of material, at the site where these remains are, and they`re just trying to find anything that they could put under a microscope later on. These police are just trying to get it all, get as much as they can, and then get it over to the crime lab so that they can actually do the work and look at it with a microscope.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the pesticide cans, though? I mean, of all of the things to remove from the home, two cans of pesticides. It strikes me as very odd. That`s something very specific. They`re not taking out other things, like furniture.

SCHWEITZER: I agree with you. And I think that they may be looking at the Internet searches that were going on with the computer. If they could find a cause of death that`s consistent with those searches that somebody was doing research on, that would go a long way of showing premeditation, and you know, who did it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, one thing just occurs to me is that they said they found a skull, and on the computer searches on Casey`s computer, there was a search for neck-breaking. I don`t know if those two match up, but it certainly seems an odd coincidence.

Donna in Kansas, your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, there. Thank you for taking my call, Jane. This baby`s skeleton was found with no clothes. Back in the first or second time she was arrested, she was making fun of the police and she made the comment, They haven`t even found her clothes yet. I want to know how the defense is going to explain that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating. Either coincidence, or she slipped. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, sometimes -- and again, this woman is presumed innocent, but sometimes criminals slip and they say things that are incredibly incriminating because it`s hard to keep that many lies together, right?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, sometimes they slip. And sometimes, when people have a very sociopathic, psychopathic personality, they like to play games and say something that`s true in their world that nobody else can discover. A comment like saying, I feel her very near, if, in fact, she was involved, if it`s shown that she did kill her daughter and she was involved in burying her, that may be a way of teasing the police. And it`s very, very twisted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard Padilla, your thoughts. Leonard?

PADILLA: She didn`t have the intention to kill her, I don`t believe. She chloroformed her to put her in the trunk asleep while she met somebody on the night of the 15th. The tape around the mouth was in case she woke and started making noises in the trunk. But I think what happened is, she overdosed her with the chloroform, and she panicked. And on the 24th, from the -- when the dad almost worked his way around to the trunk, she ran around the corner and dumped her in the bushes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Baez was called yesterday by the sheriff -- and he can correct me if I`m wrong -- and told that the anthropological measurements were correct on the child for her being Casey (SIC) Anthony, that the hair color was correct, and that they were proceeding as if this was Caylee -- little Caylee Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want any craziness at the Anthony house. It needs to be left alone. Right now, that house is secured for the possibility of being more or a crime scene later. So I don`t want anything going on crazy there. I want people to act like human beings. And I will tell you, we`re not going to put up with any nonsense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the Anthonys have packed up and left, taking even their pets.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Bombshell developments tonight. Authorities say they are now confident the remains discovered are Caylee`s.

So many questions. Let`s go straight out to Jannie in Tennessee. Your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m just wondering, the reward money, if it does turn out to be her, would the utility worker be the one who would get the money? And I just want to say what a great job the whole staff has done on covering this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the whole Nancy Grace staff has done an amazing job, including producer Natisha Lance.

Leonard Padilla, reward money?

PADILLA: There was a reward if she was found alive. And for a period of time, I had offered one if she was found dead, but that was recalled because a lot of people were trampling back yards and stuff. And so I took it off the table way back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County Utilities Emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you speak right now with a representative from our field services facilities? Hi. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull, and we believe it`s human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area right by the.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh! Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suburban and Goldenrod?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chickasaw, I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. But just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: East side of Chickasaw and, what is your party`s name that we`re going to meet with? He`s not touching this, I hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a meter reader.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`ll just tell him to stay at that location, and just stay away from everything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And if you can, stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that would be great. Just in case it is something, it may be nothing, but just in case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re from what department?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Utilities customer service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Utilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you need any information, my phone number is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead and send a call out for a deputy to meet with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we`ll see you there very shortly. What type of vehicle is he going to be in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably a Colorado. Small Colorado, white.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a Orange County -- it had an Orange County insignia on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. White Colorado truck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with Orange County markings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County markings. OK. We`ll see you there very shortly, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye-bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Stunning 911 calls after a meter reader going to relieve himself at a wooded area finds a plastic bag and there was a skull and bones inside.

Tonight, it appears ever more likely that those are the remains of Caylee Anthony. Clearly those at the crime scene immediately made the connection, as did the 911 operator you just heard from.

Let`s go straight out to our producer, Natisha Lance.

You, I understand, have some new inside information on when the crime scenes, where are the remains were found, is going to be cleared and what happens to the defense team entering that in the aftermath.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, there is a possibility that the crime scene could be cleared tonight. We`re keeping a watchful eye on it, trying to see when the deputies might clear this area.

What we were told is -- in court today, they did make an arrangement, saying that the defense would be contacted once they were done with this scene, and they would let them know, so they could come in and then do their own investigating of this case.

However, Orange County Sheriff`s Office is saying that they are not going to hold this spot for them. They`re not going to secure it for them. Once they`re done, they`re out of here. They`ll let the defense know, and that`s about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they better get over there fast, because given the publicity surrounding this case, when they take down that yellow tape, and as a reporter, I`ve seen it many times, people just swarm in there.

So if the defense wants to check it out, since they have been denied the opportunity to observe the autopsy, they better be standing by.

I want to bring the defense attorneys, Daryl Cohen and Joey Jackson, because it appears the defense team is becoming a dream team.

And Joey, let me start with you and get your reaction to this very, very high-powered team that is being assembled. Linda Kenney Baden is famous from the Phil Spector case and many other cases. Dr. Henry Lee is famous of O.J. Simpson and JonBenet Ramsey cases.

Werner Spitz is a veteran medical examiner. Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, he`s famous from being on this show, we all know him. Kathy Reichs, a very well known forensic anthropologist.

I mean if they are creating this kind of team, what does that say about the kind of case they plan to wage in court during the trial?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, here`s what it is, Jane. It`s always comforting as a defense attorney to have people who are confident and knowledgeable around you. But at the end of the day, you have to deal with the evidence, and, of course, they`re going to deal with it and they`ll evaluate it.

Now, on the issue of them actually petitioning to be present and observing the actual autopsy, let`s start there. No matter how confident or reliable your expert team is, it`s totally not necessary. The discovery rules of California allow -- excuse me, of Florida, allow for the information to be given to the defense for that team of outstanding experts to evaluate it, and it`s simply no basis for other reasons to be there.

The other thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Daryl -- Daryl Cohen, why is it that the defense was so desperate to get in there and observe the autopsy if it -- if it`s basically a non-bias procedure that really you can count on?

DARYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t believe for one moment that the defense truly wanted to be there. They wanted to say they wanted to be there knowing the judge, knowing the prosecution was not going to allow it. So that gives them the opportunity at a later date to say, hey, someone has contaminated this.

I mean, let`s face it. The prosecution is driving this case slow, methodical, meticulous. The defense`s -- and their job is to win a guilty verdict, if that`s where it goes.

The defense`s job is to cut holes in it and to divert. They want to throw up a smokescreen. The more smoke you have, the less chance the prosecution has to drive in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me tell you something about this dream team. And I think they`re all great professionals. I`m not trying to knock them. But they are specialists in smoke and mirrors. Every single one of them -- and I`m speaking particularly of Dr. Henry Lee and Linda Kenney Baden.

They know how to take a case that appears to be an open and shut case, like the Phil Spector case, for example, where she was an attorney, and it ended in mistrial, now a retrial, and they took a case that was very simple and made it the -- most complicated cases of the entire universe, and that`s what I`m afraid is going to happen with this case.

COHEN: Not -- no.

JACKSON: Well, that`s their job.

COHEN: Not going to happen in this particular instance. Florida is a law and order state. I suspect the judge, the state attorney`s office, is going to try a very down and dirty case, unlike what happened in Phil Spector, where it took forever.

This is not California. This is not a liberal state. This is a very conservative state, and in Orlando, I suspect you`re going to see something very quick. You`re not going to see a long, convoluted trial. And they`re not going to get away with.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, unless they get a change of venue to South Beach, you know? You never know what could happen.

Listen, Brenda in West Virginia has a question. Brenda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hi. What I wanted to know is, instead of charging her with first-degree murder, why don`t they go on second-degree murder and this way, instead of trying to prove that it was premeditated or planned, at least a second degree murder charge would definitely hold, and she still could get, say, a life sentence in prison.

I had that happen to me. My late husband was murdered, and he was identified by his remains, which was dental, and they went with second- degree murder. And he got life in prison out of it, to make sure that he was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, ma`am, I am so sorry that that happened to you, and that you had that experience, first of all. My heart goes out to you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And thank you so much -- thank you so much for calling and sharing your wisdom and experience.

Donald Schweitzer, there has been this big debate over whether this was pre-medicated or this was an accident, and then a cover-up. Based on the new information of what was found with the remains, the duct tape, the plastic bag and what was found at the house, have you reevaluated your theories?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: It`s only supported my theory. I`ve thought for a long time that this was premeditated, given the fact that we have these -- searches going on in the Internet, looking for ways to murder people.

And then we have her behavior. Cold, callous, you know, that wasn`t the behavior of somebody that had an accident. That was somebody that really was kind of relieved that she didn`t have a child anymore. It looked like there was some planning. So I commend the prosecution for going forward with the first-degree -- murder prosecution.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Leslie Austin, what makes me so sick to my stomach is that apparently because this young lady is pretty and young, people -- some people, anyway, find it harder to accept the fact that she may have -- and I`m not saying she did, but hypothetically, they`re finding it harder to accept the fact that a young mother would commit premeditated murder.

If she were ugly and fat, do you think that maybe they`d find it easier to make that conclusion?

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Sadly, unfortunately, I think that`s true. We like to demonize people that aren`t ideal, and she has a great media image. She is attractive, she is young. I think it`s terrible to think that a mother could do that. It`s worse to think that a young, attractive lively mother could hurt a toddler like that, such a savage way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Joshua Perper, when are we going to get the DNA results? Do we know where the remains are tonight, and when they`re going to Quantico, Virginia to the FBI?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, they don`t need to send all the remains. They need to send only a small sample and probably they already sent it with the FBI, and within a week or 14 days, we are going to have the results.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: She is not just my little girl, and I know -- I mean, she`s my baby. She`ll always be my baby. But she will always be your baby and dad`s baby. And Lee`s baby. She`s our little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Before the Oak Ridge Laboratory report came out, there was a test of the air that was found not conclusive. Of course, none of you ever received notice of that until maybe five months later. And I think it made one blip on the news media. And one little story. And everybody forgot about that.

We`ve got two conflicting results, and nobody says anything when it comes to anything exculpatory when it has to do with Casey, and that disturbs us, which is why we want in as quickly as possible, and to be able to inspect it in the same manner in which it is, and to be able to, you know -- to be able to inspect it appropriately.

Remember that if this is the daughter of Casey Anthony, this little -- is little Caylee Anthony, she is still the mother of this child, and she is still presumed innocent, and like any person, she would have a right to see remains, to view remains, and to hopefully deal with the remains in a manner that would be appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What! We`re going to examine that.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Bombshells tonight, Casey`s grandparents appear to pack up and leave their home with their dogs hours after the cops do a CSI-sweep of the home and authorities leaving with bags of evidence, vacuum cleaners, and pesticide cans.

What does it all mean and specifically?

Let`s bring in the defense attorneys, Joey Jackson and Daryl Cohen.

Joey, she`s saying that just because Casey is the mom, she gets to see the remains? She is also in jail charged with murder.

COHEN: Yes, this is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean did -- Scott Peterson get to see Lacey and Conner`s remains?

JACKSON: Very nice point, Jane. Look, the issue on the -- as far as , let`s go back to them taking the items out of the home and establishing the connection. I`ll tell you something. What concerns me is not the vacuum cleaner, the vacuum cleaner container. That`s not of really concern. Because you could explain that away, and certainly this is (INAUDIBLE) the child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is your concern?

JACKSON: The concern is the pesticides and the chemicals. If indeed there is an autopsy report and the pesticides and chemicals, there`s a link between the two, that dream team is going to have a significant -- certainly front to mount in explaining away how those chemicals and pesticides translate into that body. That`s the concern.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating.

Dawn in Texas. Your question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I have a question for Leonard Padilla. At one point, there was a home-made cot found at some location, and the beads matched some beads that were supposedly in Casey Anthony`s home.

Did -- where is that location compared to where the body was found?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHED FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The -- the little Econ River is approximately six miles north of where the body was found. The body is exactly -- a third of a mile from the residence. The little Econ River is about six miles north.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Williams, what is the mood in that neighborhood? You are right there, right where the remains were found, and that`s just less than half a mile from the Anthony home.

What is it like for this community, being the center of the storm again tonight?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, as you know, Jane, I was out at the house last night, at Hope Spring Drive, and I think a sense of relief that this thing, at least in the house, and in the neighborhood, may be coming to an end.

We finally have a body. A body of somebody. As the sheriff`s department said, it is probably little Caylee Anthony. And I think there`s that sense of relief. A little bit of closure for the folks, due to the fact that they have been riveted to this story, not only here in Orlando, but across the nation and around the world, since really the middle of July.

So there`s that somewhat sense of closure. And I think a really sense of closure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But they`re sick of it, right? I mean, they`re sick of.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think -- in other words, some neighbors of people who are involved in major.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: . dramas, like, let`s say, Drew Peterson.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: . they are sick of it, they want it to end. How about these people here?

WILLIAMS: I think-- I think after we find out who the body really belongs to, or we have an identity on the body and the news crews go away from the front of the house, they`ll say, have a nice day, folks, don`t come back. Because the story is not there anymore. It`s in the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think, Drew Petrimoulx, that the Anthonys can live in that home, given everything that`s happened?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I mean, it`s going to be hard, and especially if evidence comes out that the -- that Caylee was killed inside the home. You`ve got to figure that it would be very hard for them to function day to day in there.

In fact, they`re not staying there now. They are allowed back in that house, but they`ve chosen to stay at the Ritz -- the Ritz Hotel, so they can -- it seems like they don`t want to be there tonight, at least.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think that`s absolutely significant. And more will be revealed on that.

Jessica in Alabama. Your question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I know that the death penalty was taken off the table. But seeing all the research that she had done, and all of the lies that she has told to cover herself from the very beginning, is it possible that it could be put back on the table?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Daryl Cohen, why did they take the death penalty off the table, to begin with, and could it go back on?

COHEN: Well, I think, first of all, yes, it can go back on, but the reality is, in the beginning, they didn`t have a body, and when you take this and go away from hypotheticals, juries like real evidence. Now we have real evidence, and yes, I think they can.

And one other thing I want to point out, the defense team, dream team, bad dreams come as well as good dreams. And it`s very important for the defense -- for this dream team not to let everything go to their heads and be all about them. It needs to be about their client.

But I think point by point, they`re going to have a real major, major problem.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How are they affording this dream team, Leonard Padilla? I mean, these people do not come cheap.

PADILLA: No, most of these attorneys work for a piece of the action down the road, book and movie rights and things of that nature. But going back to Judge Fidler in California, if you go on to one of the computer sites that dealt with that trial, the judge really dressed down, the defense team out there, especially their expert, Dr. Lee, over a nail that was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, you`re talking about the Phil Spector case, yes.

PADILLA: Yes. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But -- but nevertheless, these high-priced, high-powered legal experts earn their pay.

PADILLA: But, but.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they take an open and shut case, which some people say now that -- if in fact this is Caylee, this will become -- and they use confusion and they use an overwhelming amount of minutiae to completely confuse and dazzle the jurors. This is what they`re known for.

PADILLA: Before it`s over, they will have so much convolution going in there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.

PADILLA: And -- Zenaida will be wondering if she`s going to get arrested.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.

PADILLA: I`m telling you, you watch what happens.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

PADILLA: You`re right, you`re absolutely right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. Penny from Michigan, quick comment or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am, I have two things to say. Mr. Padilla, I was just wondering why you`re so sure about Caylee being just, you know -- the tape across her mouth, and then just giving her a little chloroform.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Leonard, final word. Ten seconds.

PADILLA: Chloroform was used to put her to sleep so she could go to her boyfriend`s. And she put the tape across the mouth in case she woke. You don`t want to hear a child screaming out of a trunk of a car. It resulted in death instead of...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: O.J. Simpson heads to his new house. The big house.

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL STAR: In no way did mean to hurt anybody, to steal anything from anyone.

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you would have gotten off this robbery trial it wouldn`t matter. He`s so narcissistic, I think he would have robbed a year later something else. He would have been in the news and in another trial. He keeps wanting to do the wrong thing. But they caught him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just released grainy surveillance video showing missing mom Nadia Kersh leaving her job at a local market to pick up her 1- year-old son from day care. Nadia never made it to the day care center.

GRACE: With me is Nadia`s mother.

NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING NADIA KERSH: She was a dedicated mom. She brought him everywhere.

GRACE: The search still on for the 23-year-old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities have arrested and charged 28-year-old Curtis Lavelle Vance in the brutal beating and murder of Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly.

GRACE: DNA links him allegedly not only to her attack but a rape attack nearly 100 miles away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Had they processed that DNA and tracked down this suspect months earlier, Anne Pressly might be alive today.

GRACE: She would be alive today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There may be a break in the case of the missing Florida toddler.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a young child have been found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Less than half a mile from Caylee Anthony`s grandparents` home.

WILLIAMS: This is now a crime scene. There is more than likely some evidence that they would find that would tie the plastic bag to Casey Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Private Eugene Kanakaole, only 19, from Maui, Hawaii, killed in Iraq.

He fulfilled his life-long dream of enlisting. He was proud to serve his country. He loved football and track and field. He leaves behind parents Christine and Eugene, sisters Teresa, and brother David, who is also serving the military.

Eugene Kanakaole, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And be sure to tune in right here at 7:00 p.m. eastern for "ISSUES" with me, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Meantime have a happy and very safe evening.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/12/ng.01.html

ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Is it Caylee?

Aired December 12, 2008 - 19:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, CNN ANCHOR: Bombshells tonight with grisly breaking news out of Florida. The skeletal remains of a young child found in a plastic bag near the home of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. Could this stunning discovery finally break the case wide open? We`ll have the latest details.
Plus --

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT-ELECT: I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. No representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As Obama blasts Blagojevich, the disgraced Illinois governor clings to his job with shameless determination. Wait until you hear about the extraordinary measures being taken to force him from office. And who else might fall with him? What do you think about this corruption scandal? We`ll have the latest details and we`ll take your calls on the shocking case.

These issues and more tonight.

Breaking news tonight. We bring you in-depth analysis of the bombshell developments.

Breaking news tonight in the Caylee Anthony case. Just released, the shocking 9/11 call from a Florida meter reader who found the skull of a young child.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utility, the emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to let you speak with the representative from our field services. Everything is recorded. Here he is. How are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A skull of what we believe is a human.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, indeed. Bombshell developments at every turn from the courtroom to the crime scene, starting right now.

Breaking news tonight. More bombshells in the Caylee Anthony case. Investigators now confirm that items found last night at the Anthony home are linked to the crime scene. That scene, a wooded area just a quarter mile from the home of Caylee Anthony, her grandparents and her mother Casey. The gruesome discovery of the skeletal remains of a small child found in a plastic bag only yesterday. And another bombshell from Casey Anthony`s defense attorney in court today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA KENNEY-BADEN, CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mr. Baez was called yesterday by the sheriff and correct me if I`m wrong and told that the anthropological measurements were correct on the child for her being Casey Anthony, that the hair color was correct and that they were proceeding as if this was Caylee -- little Caylee Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: DNA results not in yet, but the judge just hours ago announced that Anthony could not have a defense team expert present during the autopsy. It remains that may very well be those of her young daughter.

With me now, Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, author of "And Justice For Some" and professor at the New England School of Law. Lisa Bloom, fabulous host of "In Session." Dr. Ken Harshbarger, a forensic pathologist. Brian Russell, lawyer and forensic psychologist. And we`re also joined by CNN`s John Couwels.

John, you were in the courtroom today. What was the reaction to the stunning announcement by the defense of all people regarding the resemblance of the remains to Caylee? Was this tantamount to the defense saying hey, there`s been a tentative identification of this child?

JOHN COUWELS, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, it was very shocking, surprising, the fact it would have been the defense in the courthouse would say in open court that a conversation between Jose Baez and the sheriff`s office that the bones, the measurements, the age, the hair color were all similar to that of being Caylee Anthony.

And the fact that it would come from the defense and not from the prosecution and that they even said repeatedly that they could not even tentatively I.D. the remains in open court. And the judge even asked, can you give me an idea of when you could? And they said, no, we can`t. We won`t release anything until we have an absolute positive I.D. from the FBI, who is currently trying to match it by DNA evidence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, you have watched very crafty attorneys work their magic over the years. Linda Kenney Baden is a famous attorney. Whenever she`s involved in a case, that means it`s a big case. Why do you think she was the one who dropped the bombshell today revealing that there are all these markers that line up with little Caylee, essentially saying the sheriff is proceeding as if this is little Caylee?

LISA BLOOM, HOST, IN SESSION: And you`re right. Linda Kenney Baden is a highly respected, outstanding defense attorney. She represented Phil Spector. I think she was brought into this case because she is a forensic expert. She really knows her stuff backwards and forwards.

The reason why she said that in court is because the defense wanted access to the autopsy. They wanted access to the testing because sometimes DNA testing destroys the tissue, destroys the subject matter of the testing. So it`s not fair for the prosecution to be able to test something if the defense can`t also test it. That`s why she`s making the identification in court saying, yes, we think tentatively this is Caylee Anthony so, please, let us have access to the remains in a scientific, respectable way so that we can do the testing as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now today, the lead sheriff for this investigation dropped this bombshell on ABC`s "Good Morning America." Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIF KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA: There are there certain things they want to be looking for. Some of those clues came from the crime scene yesterday and a lot of items were taken into our custody for review.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you can`t go into detail, but there was something that was found that made you want to search the grandparents` home?

BEARY: Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wendy Murphy, investigators remove from the parents` home and the grandparents of little Caylee, four boxes of evidence, seven large paper bags. They also seized, and I find this fascinating, four vacuum cleaners and two pesticide tanks. What do you make of that?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well let me speak first to the vacuum cleaner issue because I think that`s the easiest to speculate about. We know that little Caylee`s body was found, despite having no flesh, with a piece of duct tape over the mouth. God bless duct tape.

Let`s send a thank you note to that company. Strong enough to stay in place six months under water. Unbelievable. But what`s beautiful about duct tape, fibers stick, DNA sticks. Stuff sticks.

And when you go and ask for vacuum cleaners, it`s because probably you found something either on the duct tape or in the black bag that was also found that is either fibrous or something that you would expect to find inside of a vacuum.

When you clean your house, all sorts of stuff goes inside of the vacuum and it`s impossible to get rid of. So taking those vacuum cleaners to a forensic lab now, they are going to do the really important forensic work of comparing scientifically and hopefully matching something found inside those vacuums with something either found in the bag, somehow attached to the body or hopefully on that duct tape.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s talk about the duct tape. Dr. Kent Harshbarger, you are a forensic pathologist. Everyone saying well there was duct tape on the skull. That means it could have been put on the child`s mouth. And that could be a sign of premeditation. But if there`s no skin left on the child, then that`s a big if. I have no independent confirmation of that.

Then, you know, what is fascinating to me is that everybody is making this assumption, Lisa Bloom, that somehow this duct tape remained exactly where whoever put it there put it, even though the skin has disappeared.

That`s not how it works. I mean, obviously if the skin`s deteriorated and the duct tape was put on the skin, then however the duct tape got to the skull means that something happened in the interim.

BLOOM: Well that`s right and we know the utility worker, unfortunately, kicked the bag. Of course, he didn`t realize what he was doing and then this discovery came upon him. What that means is that the crime scene was unfortunately altered to some extent innocently by the utility worker.

So the duct tape could have moved because as Wendy said, it was under water for six months. It may have lost some of its adhesive qualities.

But we also can be sure that law enforcement is looking inside the home for duct tape that would match the duct tape found in or on the body of this poor child whose remains were found. Duct tape can be matched by manufacturer`s lot. So you and I might have duct tape that looks identical. Maybe it`s black, maybe it`s gray. They look the same. But they can be scientifically determined as to whether they came from the same manufacturer at the same time to really ascertain if it`s the same roll of tape.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask this question of our forensic pathologist Dr. Kent Harshbarger. It seems that everybody -- of course, we`re all playing detective because we have to speculate. The authorities themselves aren`t saying that much. But what they are saying is crucial. They are saying that there was some clue at the crime scene that made them want to search the Anthony home. And then they are saying, once they got into the Anthony home, they found something that was absolutely of interest, and we saw them taking all this stuff out. We talked about the duct tape. We talked about the vacuum cleaner. What about the pesticides? How could that fit in?

DR. KENT HARSHBARGER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The pesticide tanks for a chemical exposure. Maybe there was some chemical or receipt in the bag that was found about when something like that might have been purchased. So we don`t really know what else was in the bag that may have led them to search the crime scene for that pesticide tank. Chloroform residents were found in the trunk of the vehicle. Is that going to be related to the cause of death or not? Maybe that is contained within those tanks that are looking. Duct tape, more important, we`ve heard about the lots being matched. But actually the fracture pattern of where it`s ripped being matched would be crucial. To actually find not only a lot that matches but the exact roll of duct tape that matches. Fingerprints on that adhesive, what fibers that adhesive collected that the vacuum cleaner bags might have in them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to get back to whether essentially the defense was admitting that this is little Caylee, which is what everyone suspects. Here`s what Casey Anthony`s defense attorney Linda Kenney Baden said today about I.D.`ing the child`s body that has been found.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEY BADEN: There`s always a tentative I.D. in any medical examiner`s office as to who they think the person is and then they do a confirmation with regular DNA. That`s been my experience. I`d be quite surprised if the medical examiner`s office is sitting out there and saying, this is somebody unknown and we`re devoting all this time and all this energy and all these press and all these objections because we don`t believe that this is the child.

(END VIDEO LCIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, essentially is she saying that they tentatively identified this child as little Caylee?

MITCHELL: Yeah, I mean, she sort of is. I think most people are of the opinion that it is Caylee because no other little girl that size has disappeared in that area. She had the same kind of hair. All the things you`d expect to match, except DNA, have basically matched.

Plus we know that some other physical evidence was found there that no one is really talking about, but that also is making people more confident to say indeed this is her. But the defense is not going to be held to having conceded the question, if that`s your issue. As a matter of law, now that they`ve made this argument for the purpose of trying to get access to the autopsy. It doesn`t mean that henceforth they`re not going to be able to challenge all of the scientific testing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me ask this question of John Couwels, who is our reporter on the scene. When is the DNA going to come back? We`ve heard everything from this weekend to two weeks. Nobody is saying anything definitive. What have you heard?

COUWELS: Well that`s what the judge had asked in court. He asked, can you tell us when you expect any results? And they said, no, judge, we really can`t. And he said, can you just sketch me a timeline, give me a frame, give me something? And the prosecution said, no, judge, we can`t. We have no idea how long exactly it is going to take.

And, I mean, even the defense outside of court when you were talking about the fact that, is this exactly Caylee or not. You know, Ms. Baden has said by all presumption, by everything that is showing, that it appears as though it is Caylee. And she had said in court, too with the fact that that was one of her concerns was that once they do, that`s why they want to be a part of the autopsy. They want to be part of the DNA testing. Right. Her line was she was afraid they would desecrate the remains and they`d have nothing left to test. And that was one of their main concerns.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well thank you so much, John. We`re covering so much ground. Stay right there, panel. We have a lot more to cover on this gruesome story, including the rush to identify the remains. DNA testing as we just heard, not finished yet, but there is already legal wrangling over the results. More bombshells to tell you about, coming up in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEY BADEN: Remember that if this is the daughter of Casey Anthony, this is little Caylee Anthony, she is still the mother of this child and she is still presumed innocent and like any person, she would have the right to see remains, to view remains and to, hopefully, deal with the remains in a manner that would be appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The remains of a child discovered near the Anthony home. And today comes news that police have discovered items of interest, key evidence inside the Anthony house. Defense attorneys for Caylee Anthony`s mother Casey say the measurements and the hair color of the remains, the skull, resemble those of little Caylee. I want your thoughts. And with me is my fantastic panel. Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, author of "And Justice For Some." Lisa Bloom, host of "In Session." Dr. Kent Harshbarger, a forensic pathologist. And Brian Russell, attorney and forensic psychologist.

Brian, as we all know, Cindy and George Anthony, the grandparents of little Caylee, have been very vocal in defending their daughter Casey, the mom, accused of killing her child -- this child that may have now been found. If evidence is found in the Anthony home, the home of the grandparents, could that get them into hot water? Could they end up facing charges?

BRIAN RUSSELL, ATTORNEY: Well, sure. It would depend on whether or not there is evidence that they concealed anything or that they tried to dispose of anything. I think they`ve been outwardly defensive of her throughout this whole thing. But some of the videotapes that I`ve seen and that you`ve probably seen as well of them talking with her in jail suggest to me that they, too, have developed suspicion over time that she knew more than she was saying.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know, Wendy Murphy. They always seem in complete denial to me and they just went to California to look at a sighting and then they rushed home from California when the remains were discovered. And so their whole game plan up till now has been she`s still alive. She`s out there and that was apparently going to be the defense argument during the trial.

MURPHY: And if anything, that defense has gotten stronger. I don`t know how they feel personally, but at least their spin has gotten stronger with the nonsense about the Caylee sightings here and the Caylee sightings there and when are we going to get our team together and help us find Caylee? Posters, all that nonsense all over the place.

The problem I have is that sort of spin, that nonsense poisons the jury pool. It is strategic. It`s designed to be a dog and pony show, distract us from focusing on the growing evidence against Casey. And I just -- I find that just distasteful. If you want to support your daughter, fine. Just shut up.

The beauty of this discovery, as sad as it is, is that those two will now stay off the airwaves, asking us to go hunt for Caylee because there`s been yet another sighting somewhere in the country. And I`m glad that part of this case is over.

MITCHELL: That`s going to go away now. And I think as a psychologist, I don`t just look at the defendants in these things. I look at everybody. We were talking in the first segment about how -- is this going to be confirmed to be Caylee here pretty soon? I think one of the ways we can believe and know that it is that nobody involved in the whole thing is cautioning us in the media that, hey, maybe this isn`t her. And all throughout this thing, every time the bounty hunter found a necklace or something out in the forest or whatever, we got a lot of cautionary statements from people saying, hey, you guys better be careful. This might be nothing. We`re not getting that here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.

BLOOM: Jane, can I jump in about George and Cindy Anthony. Because with all due respect, I really disagree with telling them to shut up. You know, they`re not criminals. They`re not suspects. What they have done is try to support their daughter during a time that`s clearly very difficult for them. Many parents will support a child who is accused of a crime, even a crime like murder. You know, there`s no evidence that they are an accessory to the crime in any way.

And if they delusionally believe their granddaughter was still alive until yesterday when the remains were found, can we really put ourselves in their shoes and second guess them and criticize them? I think many of us probably would have reacted the same way, holding out hope after hope, even hope against hope that your grandchild was still alive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you, Lisa, to a certain degree. They have been put through hell. We just saw video of protests outside their own home where they were literally harangued by strangers who formed some group on the Internet and then went over there and started harassing them. And it`s a crazy, wild scene.

So I have a lot of compassion for them. But I will also say that, and maybe we can bring in Brian Russell, who is a forensic psychologist, that they were in denial and the extent of their denial throughout all of this, where they start saying the smell on the car is a pizza.

To me, it almost indicates where Casey got her ability to lie. If a family structure does not have respect for the truth, this is something that becomes part of the family dynamic. Truth becomes a dead issue and people just say whatever works.

RUSSELL: We`ve seen a lot of similarities throughout this whole thing between the mother and daughter, the grandmother and Casey. Also, those Jerry Springer scenes on their front lawn, that was insane. Those people gathering on the front lawn to protest.

But it was also insane how the parents came out and confronted those people. So, yeah, I`ve seen signs and symptoms throughout this whole thing that there were issues in that household. I think that, probably, Casey, her entire life, has been manipulative and lying her way out of things.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah, and you know, we have just scratched the surface here. So many other developments to tell you about. Panel, hang tight. Don`t forget, coming right up after this program at 8:00 p.m., I`ll be filling in for Nancy Grace. I`ll have all the latest breaking developments in the Caylee Anthony case. Things are happening and changing minute by minute. Please make sure you stick around. And in just minutes, I`ll have much more on all of this. We`re going to examine all the things that happened in court today and have the shocking discovery and how it will affect the case against the mom, Casey Anthony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of this area, we confirmed this with the county, was totally under water when we started doing all of this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you guys at no point ever searched this area?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were all over this area several times, but the bottom line is, it was probably under water and that`s really all we can say right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And when the water receded, they found a skull. Meantime, today, a judge denied Casey Anthony`s defense team access to the autopsy. Here`s what defense attorney Jose Baez said in response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We have qualified people, the best in the business reviewing this evidence. So we will be able to actually verify it independently. And that`s all we`re asking for, nothing more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re back. Joining this discussion on the stunning developments in the Caylee Anthony case. And I`ve got to say that Lisa Bloom, I am seeing a new trial of the century come into formation. As soon as I saw Linda Kenney Baden who is very famous in her own right, as you mentioned, the Phil Spector trial and her husband Michael Baden is the pathologist who was involved in the O.J. Simpson case, John Belushi`s death, Phil Spector as well.

Now we have Dr. Henry Lee and we have our good friend, Lawrence Kobilinsky. But I`m seeing what I called the dream team. And as soon as I see that, I think we both know what that means.

BLOOM: Well, it means that she`s got a good defense team and she needs a good defense team. And Linda Kenney Baden also represented basketball player Jayson Williams and got most of the charges against him, got him acquitted on most of the charges. So she`s done a good job in this case.

Look, there`s no question that Casey Anthony needs a good defense team. We want to be sure we get the right person. We want be sure her constitutional rights are protected. I`m disappointed by today`s ruling. I would like to see the defense have the same access that the prosecution has. We don`t want to rush to judgment here. We don`t want to railroad this young woman. If indeed, she is the killer, we want to get it right. And I think today, frankly, we`re off to a bad start.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well I think what I see every time I hear dream team, another phrase comes to mind, Dr. Kent Harshbarger. And that is garbage in, garbage out. And anytime I hear the defense team being very, very intent on getting to the remains, I know that they have to do that for a legitimate defense. But there`s also the specter of trying to challenge every single thing that the authorities come up with. And that is so easy, isn`t it, when the evidence has been under water, since this summer?

HARSHBARGER: Well clearly, there`s degradation of the evidence that occurred. But the policies and procedures that are in place in most statewide crime labs and the medical examiner`s office allow for later review by the defense team.

I think it`s not valid to claim that because the defense wasn`t given access, when they really don`t have rights. The reality is the remains aren`t I.D.`ed. They aren`t Caylee yet. They aren`t the remains of this particular toddler until they are scientifically I.D.`ed, and they don`t have a right to access yet. And the policies and procedures in place in most labs will protect that evidence for later review.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Wendy Murphy, give us a sense of what`s going to happen in terms of this trial now. There`s talk of a change of venue. The trial has been pushed back. They are going to meet to decide. Maybe it`s not even going to happen until March or now with this later.

MURPHY: I`d be surprised if we saw a trial in `09. You know, it`s funny. When there was no body, the defense was rushing to get to the trial, just like in the David Westerfield case with little Danielle van Dam when there was no body. Boy, they couldn`t get a fast enough trial, right? Until oops, now that we have a body, we`re going to do the slow crawl to trial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Panel, stay right there. So many other new developments to tell you about in just a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Bombshell developments in the Caylee Anthony today. Here`s where things stands, investigators confirm items found last night at the Anthony home are linked to the crime scene. That scene, a wooded area just a quarter mile from the Anthony home where the gruesome discovery of skeletal remains of a small child found in a plastic bag were made.

Another bombshell from Casey Anthony`s defense attorneys in court today revealing that measurements and hair color of the skull match that of Caylee Anthony.

With me now, Wendy Murphy, a former prosecutor, author of "And Justice for Some" and professor at New England Law Boston. Lisa Bloom, host of "In Session." Dr. Kent Harshbarger, a forensic pathologist and Bryon Russell, attorney and forensic psychologist.

Lisa Bloom, I want to get a sense of what this trial is going to look like assuming, and it is a big assumption, that this, in fact, is little Caylee. Casey Anthony, the accused, always has a way of adjusting her story to new developments.

So how is she going to explain this now? Is she going to try to pin this also on Zanny the nanny, a person that the police think does not exist?

LISA BLOOM, "IN SESSION" HOST: Great question Jane. First of all, I want to point out there`s a big difference between the attorneys and Casey Anthony. And yesterday morning, before these remains were discovered, they asked for a continuance of the trial date. And that was granted.

So they are not just asking for more time because of this. And secondly, let me say that Casey Anthony is clearly a piece of work. She has lied to the police over and over again sent them all off on false trails.

It`s all going to come down to the forensics now. It`s really not going to matter so much what she said. She`s lied over and over again. We know that. That`s very bad for her at trial. That`s why she`s clearly not going to take the stand.

But time of death is going to be critical. If this poor child was killed at a time, for example, when Casey was incarcerated, that would tend to exonerate her, unless this was a conspiracy type of crime.

Manner of death. Is it consistent with the prosecution is claiming or will claim at trial? Was it chloroform or something else that they can link to Casey?

So manner of death and time of death are going to be important for the defense.

Stay tuned for a very -- a finely tuned scientific forensic defense in this case masterminded by Lindy Kenney-Baden (ph).

BRYON RUSSELL, ATTORNEY AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: And Dr. Kent Harshbarger, this is Bryon Russell and I just had a question for you real quick. How likely do you think it is that we`ll be able to tell from cellular evidence found on the duct tape maybe or to other tissue evidence whether that duct tape was applied to the child while the child was still alive or after?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Kent?

DR. KENT HARSHBARGER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It will be nearly impossible to get that specific answer. There are no -- once the decomposition has -- there`s probably no way even in a fresh case but in this case, it will be near impossible to know whether -- even if applied around the mouth, you can say breathing and maybe the cellular transfer from the saliva being found but that could happen postmortem.

So in fact we`ll never know whether the tape was applied before an attempt to dispose of the body or as a potential cause of death. Which the third thing is going to be of importance is actually the cause of death. What did cause the child -- accident is still a potential.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the fact that the head appears to be disconnected from the rest of the body? They found a skull. What does that tell you, doctor?

HARSHBARGER: Just the time interval of her death can be long. So in other words all those soft tissues that connect the spine to the skull have dissolved or are decomposed away such that the ligament support no longer supports the skull.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but Wendy Murphy, there was a search on Casey Anthony`s computer for neck-breaking.

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, exactly. And we don`t know the precise date when these computer searches were done, how it correlates with the ever-evolving timeline. We don`t exactly know when she disappeared. There`s been so much misinformation about that -- lies I should say -- out of the Anthony family home.

One thing I want to go back to Jane, we talked about pesticides earlier. I used to be a counsel to the chief medical examiner`s office here in Massachusetts. Pesticides are commonly used when the homicide is, you know, not necessarily intentional, but you are trying to get rid of the body.

It speeds up decomposition and covers up odor; covers up odor. Think about that. Summer, hot; they`ve got to cover up the odor. Try to get the body to decompose quickly so it won`t be discovered. Perhaps that`s why they were looking for pesticides.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So if they could take -- and we saw them take the pesticide containers out of the Anthony home and they can match up --

MURPHY: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- those pesticides with the smell or the pesticide at the crime scene where the skull was found in the plastic bag.

Is this becoming an open and shut case, Lisa Bloom? I mean when you consider all the other evidence, the cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk of the car that Casey Anthony drove, the fact that a hair strand also in the trunk of the car appeared to match little Caylee.

The fact that chloroform was found in the trunk and that she actually went or somebody on her computer went online and researched chloroform. I mean, you`ve got a wealth of evidence here.

BLOOM: Well, I would never say any case is open and shut. It`s clearly a very strong case against Casey. It was before the body was found. Now that there is a body, and if it is the body of little Caylee, then another element of murder, namely that a child was killed or person was killed, is established.

But let`s keep in mind that intent has to be established; that this was a premeditated killing. Not just a regular killing. Not just an accidental killing or a mistake, but a premeditated killing. And yes there is some evidence of that; the searches on the computer.

Perhaps the pesticide search is because this child was poisoned. And we just don`t know. There may be a mental defect defense. There may be an insanity defense in this case. This is clearly a very troubled young woman. So I would never say this is open and shut. The trial has not even begun yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right, I will never say open and shut because I`ve covered the Michael Jackson case, --

BLOOM: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Robert Blake case, the Phil Spector case, all of which appeared to be open and shut cases. But we all know what happened with all those cases. But I think you raise a fascinating point, Lisa. And that is the possibility of the insanity defense.

What do you think, Bryon Russell, as a psychologist? Do you think that she might given all the kooky behavior, that we`ve got captured on tape, the dancing after her child went missing, she`s caught out there partying on camera.

RUSSELL: Well, we have to keep in mind that the insanity defense is an affirmative defense. And say well, I did it but at the time, I wasn`t playing with a full deck. And that`s a hard argument to make when lots of things, obviously, happened surrounding this child`s death that were planned and purposeful. You know, either in causing the death or at least immediately thereafter.

And when you see lots of planned, purposeful activity around the death, it`s tough to argue that your mind wasn`t working well enough to know right from wrong or to know the actions were criminal.

Interestingly, there have been some signs throughout this whole thing that we`re dealing with a psychopath or a sociopath. Which actually cuts against an insanity defense, and you`ve studied these people. You wrote a book about it. "Secrets Can be Murder." But there are also signs that don`t -- that are not consistent with a stone-cold psychopath or sociopath.

For example, those are good liars. Look at O.J. Simpson. I think he`s a sociopath. But she is a horrible liar. So it`s -- she`s a very interesting case. I`d love to get a crack at her in person, but we`re all kind of speculating here at a distance.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, of course, it`s, what, Lisa Bloom, the knowing the difference between right and wrong.

BLOOM: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you are insane. You don`t know the difference between right and wrong. And frankly, watching her behavior, I think you could make a good argument that she doesn`t know the difference between right and wrong. I mean the pathological lying, the leading investigators to a place she claimed she work and then finally admitting when they had her in a corner, no, I don`t work here.

BLOOM: Yes, taking the investigator on false trails at a time when perhaps they could have still found Caylee. And that`s just extraordinary evil conduct. Not just right from wrong though. It`s also the ability to conform her conduct to the law.

And look, an insanity defense is always a long shot.

RUSSELL: Right.

BLOOM: And I`ll tell you, Florida is a law and order state. So these are difficult arguments. It may just get her down from first-degree murder to reckless homicide, a lower charge, something slightly below first degree murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead Wendy.

MURPHY: The jury would have to feel some sympathy to buy into it, like with Andrea Yates. There was some sympathy for her. I don`t think there`s any sympathy for Casey, given her behavior after the fact.

But you know what else is interesting psychologically. I took a look at some old notes. In July, Casey Anthony had a recorded conversation with her brother where she said, and we all will remember this now, "I think Caylee is close to home."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well listen to this. I`ve got it right here. I want to take you back to July when she had that conversation with her brother. Listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is ok right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As mom asked me yesterday, and they asked me last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court. In my gut, she is still ok and it still feels like she`s close to home.

L. ANTHONY: Ok.

C. ANTHONY: So, I mean, that is still my best feeling at the moment.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MURPHY: Unbelievable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy, you`ve covered so many of these cases. Often -- and again, she hasn`t been convicted, she deserves the presumption of innocence -- but often criminals weave the truth into their lies.

MURPHY: Yes. And there`s the tell-tale heart possibility. You know, I think there`s a lot that she said that now that we found the body, we`re going to have to go back and re-examine and say, well, look at there. She was saying something else.

I think she may have a lot of psychological problems. But she definitely knows the difference between right and wrong. She covered up. When you cover stuff up it`s because you are afraid of the consequences, of people finding out the truth. That`s enough; she`s not going to have an insanity plea in this case because it`s going nowhere.

VELEZ-MICHELL: Well, you know --

RUSSELL: She probably has a lot wrong with her psychologically. And they`ll have an expert the defense will to come in and say she`s this or she`s that. But that does not at all mean that she is insane at the time she committed the crime for the purposes of, you know, not guilty by reason of insanity defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Bryon, you mentioned my book "Secrets can be Murder." and the whole premise of that book is that toxic secrets can lead to murder. And these toxic secrets are often part of a family pattern. And when there is no respect for the truth and honesty in a situation, it is handed down generation to generation. And people back themselves up into a corner where they have no alternative in their sick minds other than to kill.

My panel sticking with me. Don`t forget, you should stick around for "Nancy Grace" immediately following this program. I`ll be filling in for Nancy and I will have all the latest breaking developments; they`re changing by minute.

Stay with us we have more to come in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Get someone here now.

911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That the baby-sitter took her a month ago that my daughter has been looking for her. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The chilling call from Caylee Anthony`s grandmother, Cindy, reporting the little girl missing for the first time a month after she disappeared.

I`m back with my panel.

Lisa Bloom, you said it was all going to boil down to forensics. But for me, some of the most compelling evidence is this circumstantial evidence that the fact that this woman, Casey Anthony, did not report her child missing for an entire month. Finally admitted it to the mother, but only when they found her car and it smelled like death. And that`s when grandma called 911.

BLOOM: Yes, that`s devastating to her case as well. And that`s why this case has gotten so much media attention because her story is preposterous and it has been from the beginning. It`s impossible to understand how her daughter has been missing for a month and she didn`t report her. Even if she felt she was in some personal danger herself, what mother wouldn`t put her own child`s safety ahead of her own safety.

And all of the crazy stories she told about where her employer was and who the boyfriend was and they all turned out to be lies. So that is damaging, damaging information against Casey Anthony. No question about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Wendy Murphy, we actually have some video which we`ll bring you in a second of little Caylee Anthony with her great grandpa the day before she was last seen.

There she is. Look at that angelic little child.

Now here`s the thing. This occurred after -- you see right there. This occurred -- actually, that is June 15th is that video. This occurred after Casey claimed that she dropped the baby off with this Zenaida Gonzalez on June 9th. And she said she left her at this apartment complex called the Sawgrass Apartment at a certain apartment that turns out to have been vacant for more than a month.

They stuck with that story until the video you just saw came up. And when authorities found that video and said, wait a second, it was June 15th that you went on Father`s day to visit the great grandpa. Everybody in the family said, oh, wait a second. Yes, we got mixed up. Actually, it was -- and then the story changed.

And then ultimately, Casey ended up saying that Zenaida Gonzalez, Zanny the nanny took the child from a park. Grabbed her and took off and handed her a script and said read this; that according to the bounty hunter.

RUSSELL: And all that concoction of stories and stuff like that. That`s psychopathic stuff that cuts against an insanity defense. A psychopath or a sociopath is somebody who does something wrong and knows they are doing them.

So I expected -- as a psychologist and an attorney, I expected more of something along the lines of she didn`t intend the death but the death happened. Maybe she intended to sedate the kid and then -- so rather than being guilty of murder, she`s guilty of a negligent homicide maybe rather than first-degree murder and a cover-up afterwards. I`m thinking that`s what happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, do you see that or do you see what this high-powered defense team that they`re going to go for broke and try to get her off completely. Because again, as we`ve learned, there`s no such thing as an open and shut case in America anymore.

MURPHY: I think what they are going to do, at least at this point, until more information comes out and there`s a lot we don`t know yet. The police haven`t revealed everything. And that`s a good thing.

You know, look. They`re going to say the state hasn`t met its burden because, among other things why would she kill the child. If the prosecution says she didn`t like here and she was cranky and wanted to have her free-spirited ways. It`s hard for a jury to get their head around the idea that you would kill your own child, toss her into a snake-filled swamp after she`s dead just because you wanted to go out and party with your friends.

I don`t know. I think there`s more to the story, Jane. I think that apartment; there`s more to the story about that apartment. It was vacant. Casey tells police that that`s the apartment where she used to bring the kid and she just happened to be a good guesser, that that would be an apartment that would just be vacant.

Were people there before? What were they doing in that apartment? Where was she from the 9th to the 15th?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now you`re starting to sound like a defense attorney.

MURPHY: No, what I`m saying is there`s more to the story and both sides have to deal with whatever that more to the story is.

BLOOM: Jane, you know what`s sad? When you see that video of little Caylee with her great grandfather and you think about two-year-olds, my children when they were that age or two-year-olds that you might know. Most 2-year-olds are not going to be real comfortable sitting in the lap of somebody like that.

She`s very, very comfortable with her great grandfather. She clearly loves him. She snuggles in, almost goes to sleep at one point. This was a family that had options for Casey. If she didn`t want this child, she could have let her parents raise the child. There were other family members that the child felt comfortable with.

What is so sad is that if she did this, she felt this is what she had to do to have her free-spirited life, and she didn`t have to do it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the fact is, she did not want this child. According to the court documents, a friend of hers said, I`m not able to have a child -- back when Casey was still pregnant with this girl, and said, I would be willing to take the child. Apparently Casey went to her mother, asked permission, the mother said no, you have to keep the child and you have to keep it -- you cannot give it away, give it up for adoption.

That`s the tragedy, and the morality tale of this entire Shakespearean drama, is that when you try to control your children to that extent, it can really, really, really bite you.

But I think you`ve raised so many important questions. Wendy Murphy, I was wondering whether prosecutors could actually try to offer her a deal.

Look, this is going to be a nightmarish trial, one of these trial of the century kinds of things, where there is a mini city set up for the media, and then they`re going to do a change of venue, they`re going to try, anyway, and everybody is going to have to commute long distances. Don`t you think that they might be thinking in the back of their heads, now we can approach her and say, look, tell us what happened, and what can they give her in return though? They have already taken the death penalty off the table.

MURPHY: What`s weird about this case is there is no victim waiting desperately to hear the truth, because the victim is the -- you know, is the child of the suspect, so there is no suffering family wondering what the truth is. They all know. They`re just not telling.

So -- and I don`t like giving up deals to save money. This isn`t a swap meet. You have a trial, because justice should be done for that child, whether or not her mother is the killer. You`ve got to do the right thing by the kid. And the whole world is watching to see whether we`re going to be fair and that means honoring this child`s life, not giving out discount sentences just because we finally found the body and we need to save money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Up next, we`re going to talk about whether they could take the offer to remove the death penalty off the table and bring it back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve -- This is (inaudible) utility and emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a -- I`m going to let you speak with a representative from our field services. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? The skull of a -- we believe it`s human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Oh." That says it all.

Fascinating as a meter reader, who -- let`s face it -- nature called, he had to go relieve himself, and he went off the road and he went back there, and actually found that bag, picked it up, and there was a skull in it.

Lisa Bloom, your response to that caught on tape.

BLOOM: Yes, did he say it`s in the Anthony area? Is that what I hear him saying? So it sounds like right off the bat, this stranger, this man who has nothing to do with this crime, this incident or this family, understands the implications of what he has found. He says it`s a human skull and you hear the dispatcher say, oh! And these are people who are trained to get these calls day in and day out.

Everybody immediately understands the implications that perhaps this is Caylee Anthony, the little girl, the entire community has been looking for. This is something I can see the defense using, by the way, in support of a change of venue motion, because everybody in that community is just saturated with this crime.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Wendy Murphy, given that this has gotten global coverage, and everybody in the country, you just say the word "Caylee," they know exactly what you`re talking about, how does a change a venue work when we live in a global village?

MURPHY: It`s not going to work. I had a party at my house -- all these profession women -- that`s all they wanted to talk about. I`m telling you, you can`t go anywhere. That`s one of the reasons the venue motion will be denied.

But remember, we`re talking about a spot that was a three-minute walk from Cindy and George`s home, okay? The grandparents of this little girl; three minutes from their home. Pesticides taken from their house, because it was forensically related to whatever they found at the scene where the body was located.

I hope the police put the squeeze on Cindy and George. And I`m not saying they have anything to do with the death, but there is funky about a woman who says, "I smelled death in that car," and two weeks later says, whoops, I made a mistake, that was pizza. I wish this was smell-o-vision instead of television. You know why? If we could get the audience to understand what the smell of death is, you would never, ever mistake it for pizza at any stage.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to give you the last word, Wendy, and you said it best. It`s not pizza.

My panel is fantastic: Wendy, Lisa, Kent, Brian. Thank you so much for your insights.

Up next, I`m going to be filling in for Nancy Grace with the very latest on the continuing investigation in Florida. Bombshell, shocking tapes; please, stick around for more.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/12/ijvm.01.html

NANCY GRACE

More Bones Found in Caylee Anthony Case

Aired December 15, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, skeletal remains confirmed by sources to be little Caylee found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthony home. A utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, kicks it, a human skull literally rolls out. We believe the trash bag, black in color, contains nearly a full set of child`s remains.
FBI and investigators back in those woods this morning, deputies remaining tight-lipped, but we have confirmed a trail of bones leading to the child`s skull. A team of experts there all weekend, combing those dense woods for more remains, sifting through literally buckets of leaves and dirt, pulling out branches, methodically checking the area where the skull was found. Police conducting a search of the Anthony home late into the night. What in that plastic bag links the child`s remains back to the Anthony home?

And tonight, in a stunning twist, was the child`s skull tightly bound in thick industrial-strength duct tape? The body wrapped in plastic. Tonight, we learn some of those remains already at Quantico`s FBI lab. And in another bizarre turn, the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, still blame it all on the nanny.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to reports, investigators found a trail of bones close to where the skull of a young child was found early Thursday near the Anthony home.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents and Orange County investigators are back searching the area today, hoping to find more evidence. Authorities have yet to officially identify the remains found, including a human skull. But detectives believe the remains are likely that of missing 3-year-old Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a human skull, and it looks like that of a small child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, investigators concluded their search of the Anthony home, which was examined by police after something of interest was found in the area where the remains were discovered by a local meter reader.

CASEY ANTHONY: All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, well, maybe not. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details emerge at the scene where a child`s skull discovered completely by chance. Tonight, a trail of bones?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and I`ll just tell him to stay at that location and just stay away from everything.

911 OPERATOR: OK. And if you can, try to stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. OK.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: We`re going to get our little girl back, and she`s going to be just as she was. I won`t let her out of my sight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI and Orange County investigators reportedly found a trail of bones in the wooded area where remains were found just yards from the Anthony home. One Orlando station is reporting that dozens of bones, which may or may not be related to the skull found last week, were spotted by investigators combing through the crime scene.

CASEY ANTHONY: I want her to be found whether I`m still stuck in here or not. I don`t care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents sifted through buckets and buckets of dirt dug up from the wooded area believed to be little Caylee Anthony`s shallow grave. They could be searching for more bones, but they probably discovered the most crucial evidence already, duct tape stuck to the child`s mouth, with part of the flesh still intact.

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Official identification of the remains is expected any time now, while the FBI and local detectives continue to gather more evidence.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: They said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, you can get a real explanation from, that knows where she has been. It`s going to have to be because up to (ph) that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, a stunning discovery allegedly of a trail of bones leading to a child`s skull. All of this just 15 homes away from grandparents George and Cindy`s home.

Straight out to special guest joining us right now, famed forensic pathologist Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic scientist and a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. Dr. Lee, what have you heard regarding a trail of bones leading to the child`s skull?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO DEFENSE TEAM: That`s the first time I heard. We were in Florida yesterday. However, as you know, the coroner (ph) did not judge (ph) did not prove that. So the other defense expert, we did not have chance to observe, nor examine anything.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, everyone, famed forensic scientist, is on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, you are saying the judge denied a particular motion. Was that to allow you and other defense experts on the scene while police were processing it?

LEE: Not exactly observe. Not really join examination. But many time, you know, like (ph) cases, most of time, they allow for defense expert to observe. Some of the time, we even join together, work on the searching (ph) of the remain or search of the trace evidence.

GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum joining us tonight, crime analyst and director of the cold case squad at Pine Lake Police Department. Sheryl, I find that highly unusual, that defense experts are at the initial processing of the scene? No way!

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: No way. With all due respect to Dr. Lee -- and I`ve trained under Dr. Lee -- no way are they going to be on my crime scene. They`re not necessary. They`re not needed.

GRACE: Back to Dr. Henry Lee, who, as you all know, is a famed forensic scientist on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, I`ve just got to ask you, you know, tot mom Casey Anthony was siphoning gasoline from her family`s car to fill up her own tank. How the heck are you getting paid? I`m sure you`re costing a pretty penny. Dr. Lee does not come cheap.

LEE: No, we did not get any pay for that and for -- I`ll say, you know, this country, as you know, everybody entitled a defense. And many forensic experts, we do pro bono cases and that`s our obligation to our profession. As an expert, we look at evidence, doesn`t matter inculpatory, exculpatory, we report (ph) as it is. I don`t think should be labeled as a defense expert going to just for defense. Many time, found more evidence, inculpatory evidence, than the police found. There -- you know, case history, case example, many time we`re allowed to work on the case together. Many of my cases, I let the defense expert observe. It`s nothing wrong.

GRACE: So Dr. Lee...

LEE: Nothing unusual.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, are you telling me that you are working on the case pro bono, for free?

LEE: Yes.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee is with us, everyone. Dr. Lee, the body was found this past Friday. Investigators have been out there ever since. They have stated -- they`re pretty tight-lipped -- that something in or about that bag is definitely linked back to the Anthony home. What is it, Dr. Lee?

LEE: Well, if it`s a plastic bag or masking tape, definitely you should collect all the bags and tape from the home and try to compare. That`s a usual -- not really unusual. That`s a very common practice. I have many past cases like that. We compare all the plastic bags which we can seize from the individual`s house.

GRACE: And Dr. Henry Lee is with us, everyone. Sheriff`s deputies took up quite a treasure trove out of the Anthony home during a late-night search, including vacuum cleaners, pillows, pesticide tanks. Dr. Lee, what do you believe they were looking for?

LEE: I think this is so-called shotgun approach, just collect everything, later try to see whether or not can link something from debris from the vacuum bags because you -- the search warrant let you search, seize some of evidence, you should seize everything possible.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, have you been told by the defense when they believe they`ll go to trial?

LEE: No. I think, you know, that`s a legal issue. I was told Saturday afternoon they`re going to release the scene. That`s why I was in Chicago, working on a case. Right away, they ask me to be in Orlando. That`s later Sunday, we heard they are not going to release the scene. That`s why I come back because just -- life have to go on. Connecticut, we still have a lot of other cases to work on.

GRACE: With us, everyone, famed forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee. He is now on the Anthony defense team.

Let`s go to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark Williams, you have been there on the scene from the get-go. I want to find out a lot of things. Number one, was the bag black in nature? Was there something in the bag, not just the bag and the duct tape itself, that links this back to the Anthony home? Why were the Anthonys kept out of their home during that late night search, and why did they go back? Hit me.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: OK. Here we go. What we understand is from our sources that that may be a plastic bag over the body. The body was initially put in a plastic bag. That bag broke, or it became very smelly, the decomposition took place. She took a second bag, put it over the first bag, and used duct tape to wrap it. From that point, she drove around with the body for several days...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Back it up about three sentences. Repeat?

WILLIAMS: OK. She double-bagged the body, from what we understand. From our sources, who I talked to just the other day, that she had an initial bag, put the body in there, and then when the stench became so much, she put it in a second bag, then used duct tape to wrap the front, took it, drove it around for a while, and then when George decided to get the gas cans out of the back of the car, that`s when she decided that she better allegedly dump that body someplace. So that`s what my sources are telling me.

Also, the Anthonys kept out of their home since Thursday night. They came back from a West Coast media blitz, Nancy. And the place automatically became a crime scene because of what they found. They were allowed back in their home, and they went back to their home Sunday afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, I don`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. It doesn`t matter because I know it`s not true, and everyone that knows me knows that it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: FBI agents and investigators there spending a fifth day searching woods near Orlando for clues in Caylee Anthony`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents sifted through buckets and buckets of dirt dug up from the wooded area believed to be little Caylee Anthony`s shallow grave.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A utility worker found a child`s skull half a mile from the home that the toddler shared with her mother and grandparents.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know Mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kids.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) still believe Zenaida Gonzalez had something to do with this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But not the Zenaida Gonzalez that Mr. Morgan represents. And Casey Anthony has made it clear from the beginning that the individual that Mr. Morgan represents is not the Zenaida Gonzalez that she was referring to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you still think that Zenaida (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was the last person in custody of Casey -- or of Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the new attorney for grandparents George and Cindy. Apparently, they are sticking with the story and blaming it all on Zanny, the nanny, although, apparently, Caylee`s remains have been found only 15 homes away from grandparents George and Cindy Anthony`s home.

Out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the location where the remains were found. Natisha, what`s happening now?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they`re still investigating this area, Nancy. Crime scene investigators, FBI, have all been on the scene today. They said that they expect to wrap up probably on Wednesday. But as you said earlier, they are sifting through this material, literally picking up with their hands leaves, dirt, soil, all types of foliage, dumping them into these big buckets and then sifting through them.

Now, they`ve said that they`ve discovered some smaller bones in addition, while they have been doing that sifting, and those bones will be sent off to the medical examiner`s office. But as of right now, like I said, doesn`t look like they`ll be wrapping up until about Wednesday.

GRACE: Also there at the location where the remains of who we believe to be little Caylee have been found is bounty hunter out of Sacramento, Leonard Padilla. He first put up the tot mom`s bail, came off the bail, and has now been at the forefront, along with Equusearch`s Tim Miller, looking for little Caylee.

Leonard Padilla, you predicted all along it would come down to this. Explain to me what your sources are telling you, the theory as to how the bones became scattered, resulting in a trail of bones.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s not exactly a trail. What happens when a body like this gets dumped and it`s under water for a period of time, after the water dries off, the little critters come out and they pick up particles of the body, they pick up bones, and they take them off to their shelters. And their shelters are usually under the palmettos a foot, a foot-and-a-half. And you will see this area basically cleaned of all palmettos, of all topsoil, in order to get down into the little burrows.

And I`m going to tell you something. Besides there being a legal need for a complete and thorough investigation of that area, Sergeant Allen also is looking at it from an angle, I believe, of morality, and that is that all of Caylee be buried at one time in a funeral service. Not just get enough to what you need for DNA and then run off and leave the rest of her scattered out there. I believe he`s a very moral man, and that`s what he`s doing right now.

GRACE: To Dr. Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing." Dr. Lipkins, thank you for being with us. The thought that some of her remains may be left out in the woods must be devastating to George and Cindy Anthony. Why? Why is that -- what is that, insult to injury? But why is that fact so disturbing?

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`m not even sure that they`ve accepted the fact that Caylee is dead. And I think that the parts -- you know, you would like to have a funeral. It`s like an ending for everybody, the entire country, as well as this family. And as they do in any tragedy, they like to put all the pieces of the puzzle and the person back together, so they can say a true good-bye.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, joining us out of Orlando. Drew, with dental records, little Caylee could be identified almost immediately. Why are they not officially calling it?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: They say they have to get these lab -- these test results back from the lab there in Virginia. And the thing is, there`s been conflicting reports. Initially, we heard that the ID could come back as soon as Sunday or even today. Now we`re hearing the end of the week. And we`ve also heard maybe not even until next week until we finally know. So there`s just been conflicting reports on how long it will actually take them, and you know, what actual physical evidence they`re going to use to make an exact positive identification.

GRACE: And to Dr. Daniel Spitz, medical examiner joining us out of Madison Heights, Michigan, also a forensic pathologist. Dr. Spitz, explain to me, if there is no soft tissue left, how can you get DNA from bones?

DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, you can easily extract DNA from bones. And once you have the DNA from the bone, you can make a comparison with a known sample from the parents or something that has Caylee`s DNA on it.

GRACE: When we come back, was the child`s skull bound tightly in duct tape?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge declined to give the defense any rights to the body until it`s ruled to be Caylee. But neighbors are so convinced, they already started saying their good-byes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just kind of think it`s just really sad and unfortunate -- you know, just a way to pay my respects by coming out here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All weekend, two sources speaking on condition of anonymity tell us they`ve been finding a small trail of bones. Thirty members of the FBI`s evidence response team and other crime scene investigators have been sifting through dirt and debris around the area where a child`s skull was discovered by a meter reader Thursday morning. Sources say it had long, light hair. Its mouth was duct taped shut. Investigators say they`re still trying to figure out why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Apparently, a trail or something like a trail of bones leading to a child`s skull. New evidence emerging. Experts, police, sheriffs, the medical examiner`s office out in those dense woods all day today after the remains of a small child found on Thursday of last week.

Straight back out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what can you tell me about a so-called "dream team" being put together? They`ve got their hands full if it`s true duct tape was found wrapped around the child`s skull.

WILLIAMS: Yes, well, this dream team, of course, has been put together by Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, one of the people, of course, Dr. Henry Lee, eminent forensic specialist, also Linda Kenney Baden, who`s a self-proclaimed forensics expert, and of course, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, who appears on this show.

Again, my sources tell me that the body and -- the duct tape was wrapped all the way around the head, including the mouth, and in a very tight fashion. Again, those people talking to me on -- you know, anonymity. So consequently, we have some hair, we even have, allegedly, some soft tissue that was stuck to the sticky part of the duct tape. Now, that sticky part kind of preserved everything. Plus, they can get other evidence off of there, like of hair, and of course, fingerprints.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Robin Sax out of LA, Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta, Doug Burns out of New York. Robin Sax, originally, the death penalty had been taken off the table. But if this skull was bound in duct tape, that`s a whole `nother animal.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: It certainly is a whole other animal. All of a sudden, the reason that the prosecutors took the death penalty off the table before was an unclear version of the events. But now we have a skull, and as was just discussed, with the tape and the preservation of evidence, we now really can see the calculation and deliberation.

GRACE: What about it, Penny?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I see a lot of confusion here because the person said he picked up the bag and a skull fell out. He didn`t mention anything about it being covered in duct tape.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Doug Burns, what do you think?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. I still think it`s going to be hard to sort out exactly what happened on the killing itself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County Utilities Emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you speak right now with a representative from our field services facilities? Hi. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull, and we believe it`s human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area right by the.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suburban and Goldenrod?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chickasaw, I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. Just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: East side of Chickasaw, and what is your party`s name that we`re going to meet with? He`s not touching this, I hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a meter reader.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`ll just tell him to stay at that location, and just stay away from everything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And if you can, stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that would be great. Just in case it is something, it may be nothing, but just in case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re from what department?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Utilities customer service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Utilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you need any information, my phone number is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead and send a call out for a deputy to meet with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we`ll see you there very shortly. What type of vehicle is he going to be in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably a Colorado. Small Colorado, white.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a Orange County -- it had an Orange County insignia on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. White Colorado truck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with Orange County markings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County markings. OK. We`ll see you there very shortly, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye-bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You just heard the 911 call from the meter reader. He made the discovery of what many believe to be the remains of little Caylee Anthony.

Back out to Mark Williams at WNDB, it`s my understanding that since the discovery of these remains there have been no visits to the jail to see the tot mom. Is that true?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That is very true. As a matter of fact, George and Cindy Anthony have remained -- have stayed away from the jail as much as they can.

Their new lawyer today during a mid-day news conference said the fact that they haven`t been to the jail, Nancy, is they don`t want to be recorded, because, you know, once those things are recorded it gets out into the media. And they.

GRACE: OK. You know what? Out to Doug Burns. You know what, Doug? If all these people believe little Caylee was alive, the parents and the tot mom, wouldn`t she need consoling from her family? Jail cameras be damned?

You really think, Doug Burns, if somebody in your family has a loss of a child, you don`t go comfort them?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. There is no question that all of the behavior is totally bizarre. And more importantly, let`s add another little footnote in, which is that the grandparents have not exactly been bashful with respect to appearing on the media themselves, Nancy.

GRACE: Penny, what about no visits to the tot mom after the discovery of what could be their little girl?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I feel strongly that the attorney is telling them not to go there. They`re being advised by their attorney and their daughter`s attorney to stay away from the jail, because they don`t know how, what they say could be changed or twisted, and they`re saying it`s better if you say nothing.

GRACE: Well, what they, what they say, Robin Sax, joining us out of L.A., is not going to be changed. It may be on video camera -- video camera, but it`s not going to be changed.

What do you make, Robin Sax, of the fact that even -- with all of them believing that little Caylee is alive, or so they said, mostly the tot mom, leading her family on this wild goose chase, insisting the child is still alive and kidnapped by a nanny. Nobody has visited her?

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS AND CHILD MOLESTERS": No one is visiting her is surprising because George Anthony is involved and was involved in law enforcement for many years. They have been on tape many, many times. So I find that unusual, actually, at this moment, now all of a sudden.

I think the reason they`re not visiting her is they are extremely concerned about their own potential of charges of obstruction of justice.

GRACE: To crime analyst and director of the "Cold Case Squad," Sheryl McCollum, it`s my understanding that the skull was wrapped in duct tape. I don`t know the extent of it. Also, they insist that it is Caylee, even though we don`t have DNA back.

Now, I personally know of other missing children in the Orlando area. So what are their reasons for believing this is little Caylee.

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIRECTOR, COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE POLICE DEPT.: Three. One, there`s no other missing children in close proximity.

GRACE: OK.

MCCOLLUM: Two, she`s found within real close proximity to the Anthony home. And three, the remains are the size of Caylee, and the hair is identical to her color and length.

GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx, joining us with WDBO, let me confirm. This is about 15 houses away from the Anthony home, correct?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, about 0.4 miles.

GRACE: OK. To Robin Sax, prosecutor and author -- Robin, the proximity to the Anthony home. What does it tell you about the killer?

SAX: Well, it -- as I`ve thought all along, I`ve always believed that it was Casey Anthony, and the proximity to the home is huge. First of all, Casey Anthony has knowledge of the area. She has the ability to know the ins and outs of the woods, been there, grown up in the area. She`s had access to the area, so if things got close in the search, she would have the ability to move things, if she had to.

And also, it just goes to show that when she -- if she was in a panic or in a moment of trying to figure out what to do with the body when the odor came to be, it was an opportunity to dump really quickly.

GRACE: Back to Mark Williams with WNDB, it`s my understanding that the Anthonys` private investigator was spotted in and around the Anthony home with some type of a meter that was blinking red? What was that all about?

WILLIAMS: Yes. The new private investigator stopped by the Anthony home last night. It was a device, from what many people tell us, to check for any electronic surveillance inside the Anthony home such as a microphone or a camera that they say.

GRACE: A bug.

WILLIAMS: Yes. That they say, oh, could have been placed in there by detectives and investigators when they went in to take their evidence out over the past couple of nights.

GRACE: And back to Cheryl. Cheryl, why would vacuum cleaners and pool chemicals be taken from the Anthony home?

MCCOLLUM: They`re going to see if the evidence, again, links to anything they found in the trunk, anything they found on the trash bag, anything they`re going to ultimately find on the wrapping that Caylee was found in.

GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, standing by at the location where the remains have been found.

Natisha, it`s been our report that something inside that bag, not just the bag and the duct tape itself, but something in the bag is linked back to the Anthony home. What do you know?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right. There have been reports that there was a covering, actually covering these remains inside the bag. We don`t know exactly what brought them back to the Anthony home, but we do know for sure that Sheriff Kevin Beary did say that absolutely, there was something that was found at this crime scene that led them back to the Anthony home.

GRACE: And Natisha, they definitely said there were no clothes in the bag, right?

LANCE: Well, that hasn`t been confirmed yet. There have been reports that said there were -- was clothing inside the bag.

GRACE: I heard them say that with these two ears. I heard them say no clothes. So? Were there clothes or not?

LANCE: Well.

GRACE: Are you telling me there may be clothes?

LANCE: That has not been confirmed by police, that there have been clothing, no.

GRACE: OK. Well, it was the cop speaking, Natisha, so maybe you know more than the cops do. But they said on air with a mike, up in their mouth, no clothes in the bag, which takes me back to bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla.

You said -- you told me on air months ago that tot mom Casey Anthony stated cops haven`t even found the clothes she was wearing that night, which led us to analyze, was the child buried without clothes.

Leonard Padilla, what else can you tell me about the theory regarding the child being wrapped in a -- some material, and in a plastic bag, not just in a plastic bag?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: Well, I can tell you this, that it seemed as though she was wrapped in a sheet or some type of linen. I believe there was also clothing in the bag that she was found in. There was a hole in the bag that the skull fell through.

I can tell you that she was put in that bag on the 18th, and that`s when the skull -- the tape around the skull came to be. I don`t think it was done the evening of the -- or the morning of the 16th, when she, I believe, overdosed on chloroform. I believe she chloroformed her to put her to sleep.

I believe it was the 18th when she wrapped the head tightly with the tape in order to make it look like a kidnapping, furthering the Zenaida Gonzalez thing that they`re going to embark on now that Zenaida kidnapped her. They were getting close with the sightings, they killed the child, dumped her close to the house to frame the family.

And also that Zenaida had a key to the house, so she could have gone in there and gotten tape. She could have gotten a bed sheet or a pillow case, or anything out of there.

GRACE: So they`re actually sticking with the nanny story.

Everybody, we`ll be right back. But right now, we are saluting Dr. John Taylor, a personal inspiration to our staff, who, with the help of his wife Sally, won four gold medals in age 85 to 89 group at Florida Senior Olympics , Ft. Myers.

Superstar athlete, former minister, Doctor John Taylor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is the family doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When your sister told you that the body was.

(CROSSTALK)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Do not follow me on the property or we`ll call law enforcement. .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you`re holding up on the possibility?

ANTHONY: Do not follow -- do not follow me on to our property or I will call law.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you taking away the memorial, Lee?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there`s a human skull, and it looks like that of a small child. I don`t know about a plastic bag or anything else. Don`t know it. No clothes that we know of now, but understand Dr. G is here, and we can`t talk about the evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child`s bones were found a quarter of a mile from the Anthony home. And as you see, the Orange County Sheriff`s Office continues to work the site. Down the block, though, a familiar face has made an appearance.

PADILLA: It`s a tragedy, and.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leonard Padilla says he was happy when he heard the bones had been found.

PADILLA: Elation. And then you get sadness -- because you`re related, because, hey, you know, I`ve been vindicated. I told them she was dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says he`s confident it`s Caylee.

PADILLA: And probably digging up a ten-square feet of that place back there, all the way out to the road, they`re going to know exactly how and when.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears people have come to their own conclusion about whether Caylee is alive or dead. Memorials are laid out at the Anthony home and near the search site.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just kind of think it`s just really sad, unfortunate, and, you know, just a way to pay my respects for coming out here and -- you know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether it is Caylee or not, some -- there is a dead child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says any way you look at it, it`s a sad way for a child to die.

PADILLA: It was a little girl that had a whole lot of life left ahead of her, and it was taken away from her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mark Williams, what can you tell me about brother Lee taking down a memorial created by the community?

WILLIS: Well, several people stopped by the Anthony home on Friday night. And they set up a small memorial, leaving teddy bears, a cross, things of that nature.

Lee arrived at the house, Saturday afternoon, roughly 4:00 or so, drove into the driveways with his Mustang, saw what was going on, went over and literally picked everything up, telling reporters to stay off his property, or he would call police.

Basically, he desecrated a memorial and a -- just a remembrance for his niece. And a lot of people aren`t happy about that.

GRACE: Cheryl? Cheryl?

MCCOLLUM: I can`t imagine why anyone would take that down, Nancy.

GRACE: Also, I want to play for you something that the tot mom said behind bars. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday, and even they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning that I got through the court. In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

L. ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: So, I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if it that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately. But I know mom will understand this better than anyone. That there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.

L. ANTHONY: Right.

C. ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable. Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Prosecutor and author, Robin Sax, out of L.A. veteran defense attorney, Doug Burns, in New York, and trial lawyer Penny Douglass Furr out of Atlanta.

You know, Doug, don`t you just hate it when your client is either clairvoyant or a killer? How did she know little Caylee was so close to home, 15 homes away?

BURNS: Yes, no, there is no question. She engaged in a whole series of mistruths about where she worked, Universal Studios, the babysitter. It just went on and on and on. And you`re right, from the defense perspective, it`s an absolute horror show.

GRACE: Penny?

DOUGLASS FURR: From the defense perspective, she would have been better off not to talk, just as I answered the earlier question. I said they`re advising them not to talk, just be totally quiet.

GRACE: Well, Robin Sax, I think comforting your daughter over the discovery of her child`s remains is a lot different from talking about the facts of the case. But what do you make of tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars stating I just feel she is really close to the house?

SAX: Well, that comment is very telling and it`s a comment that may - - you may hear again in opening or closing statements. But she also said, and this other phrase, another statement that she made keeps rolled through my mind, which is everything will make sense once we find Caylee.

And we get a lot of the tokens and a lot of nugget from Casey Anthony`s own mouth, and I think that it`s very, very telling and probably the most amount of truth we got.

GRACE: Dr. Susan Lipkins, weigh in.

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "PREVENTING HAZING": (INAUDIBLE) her connection. And the connection between her own mother and herself. And I think that she looked at this young girl Caylee as a doll. She sometimes played with her, sometimes dressed her up and sometimes threw her in the corner, and I think that`s what we`re going to find out at the end of this.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla who is now -- was searching for little Caylee.

Leonard, the duct tape around the skull, where was it, according to your sources? Was the entire skull covered? Was it the mouth and the nose?

PADILLA: It covered -- no, no, it covered -- it was wrapped around the mouth and the head, hard enough to where it is still there with a lot of soft tissue under it and hair under it. And I believe that the tape was placed there post-mortem on the 18th, not on the 16th when she died, and it was there to insinuate some type of a kidnapping.

The other thing you`re going to hear is that that area back there is where the kids in the neighborhood, Casey and other children, used to bury their pets, parakeets, birds, when they died. Also, if you remember the song that she played constantly when she got out of jail, the song with "Under the Water" and things of that nature.

GRACE: Yes?

PADILLA: . that area was under water. It started raining on the 24th of June. By the time she got out of jail, it was three foot under water where the body was. So there`s no doubt in my mind that there`s a lot of preservation took place because the body was under water up until about a week, 10 days ago.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Robin Sax, Penny Douglass Furr, Doug Burns.

Robin Sax, I don`t agree with the deal regarding the duct tape. It would make absolutely no sense to put duct tape on post-mortem. The existence of duct tape around the mouth, Robin Sax. She is looking at the Florida death penalty by needle if she duct-taped this child`s mouth.

SAX: That`s absolutely correct. The suggestion to me that it probably is to you the duct tape either shows she was trying to quiet little Caylee for some reason at some point, or she was trying to suffocate her. And I think it goes right to the intent and right to first-degree murder and lends itself to a death penalty case.

GRACE: Penny?

DOUGLASS FURR: Nancy, I still have a problem with the duct tape. It`s been out there for months, and I just don`t think it`s in the same place. I can`t imagine under water for all those months and she comes out still with duct tape on her mouth? Something that`s not right about that.

GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Doug Burns, that even plumbers use duct tape when it will be subjected to water?

BURNS: Yes, absolutely. But I don`t necessarily.

GRACE: There you have it, Penny.

BURNS: I don`t, I don`t necessarily reject what Leonard Padilla is saying now. The duct tape could have been put on.

GRACE: Yes.

BURNS: . after the child died.

GRACE: Hey, I know what you`re doing. You`re trying to mitigate.

BURNS: I`m not mitigating anything.

GRACE: . the circumstances at the time of the death.

BURNS: It`s a straight evidence point, Nancy. There is no way that you can prove conclusory whether the tape was put on before or after and there`s all kinds of proof.

GRACE: I don`t know about that.

Is there any way, Dr. Daniel Spitz, if there was soft tissue under the tape?

DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: You know the body was so decomposed that common sense may tell you that the duct tape were put on, you know, in an ante-mortem fashion, but the reality is that there`s nothing forensically that would allow you to distinguish whether the duct tape was put on before or after death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I know she`s close. I can feel her. Every night before I go to bed, I thought I see Caylee, the moon and the stars in the skies, sweet heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: I want to see that little girl. I want, I want to hear Caylee laugh. I want to be with my baby.

G. ANTHONY: Yes.

C. ANTHONY: That`s my focus. Her birthday is in just a few days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk, will the tot mom be -- allowed out of jail to attend the funeral?

WILLIAMS: Boy, great question. I would think that she would be allowed out of jail at least.

GRACE: Really? Why would you think that?

WILLIAMS: I think it`s been done in the past when -- blood relatives have died, and they`ll keep her under constant surveillance.

GRACE: Yes, well, when blood relatives have died but not necessarily at the hands of the defendant.

WILLIAMS: But by the same token, Nancy, they could say.

GRACE: Name one. Name one, Mark Williams.

WILLIAMS: I can`t.

GRACE: Name one.

WILLIAMS: I can`t name one.

GRACE: OK. There. You know all these cases but you can`t name one.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I`ll be honest with you, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, fine. What about it, Cheryl? Will she be at the funeral?

MCCOLLUM: Absolutely not.

GRACE: And back out to Natisha Lance, will she be at the funeral? Natisha Lance?

LANCE: I don`t think so, Nancy. Not a strong possibility. I don`t think so.

GRACE: I`m hearing Padilla say yes. What about it, Drew Petrimoulx?

PETRIMOULX: I don`t see any possibility they could let her out, especially since the trial hasn`t happened. It would be one thing if she was convicted and sitting on death row. But let her out with the -- with the bond circumstances there, it`s just too cloudy of a situation to let her out before the trial has even happened.

GRACE: And what about it, Doug Burns?

BURNS: Agree. I mean, right now from a straight legal standpoint, she`s on bail. She hasn`t been convicted of anything. However, I don`t think they`re going to let her go. But there would be more reason to let her now than later.

GRACE: Robin?

SAX: There`s no way as a prosecutor that I would agree or could imagine.

GRACE: OK.

SAX: . a judge in this case letting her out.

GRACE: Penny?

DOUGLASS FURR: They won`t let her go, Nancy. It`s just too much of a nightmare trying to keep security and everything.

GRACE: OK.

DOUGLASS FURR: They will not let her out.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop our discussion and Remember Army Sergeant John Aragon, 22, Antioch, California, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star, two army achievement medals.

A devoted Oakland Raiders fan, tattooed the team name above his heart. Loved his dog, Amy, Sue and his 1964 Chevy Impala. Leaves behind parents, John and Denise, sisters Cristina and Brianna.

John Aragon, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/15/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Anthony Grandparents Reportedly Seeking Immunity

Aired December 16, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, police and forensic experts still on the scene, still on the scene where skeletal remains believed to be little Caylee found in a heavily-wooded area, and it`s just 15 houses away from the Anthony home.
A utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, kicks it. A human skull, a tiny human skull literally rolls out, the trash bag containing nearly a full set of child`s remains, the skull apparently still covered in long, light-colored hair, still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.

Deputies still digging, searching, even sifting through buckets of dirt for more remains. We have confirmed at this hour, bones still being found scattered along the same location where the skull was found. In court today, a state`s attorney seems to slip up, confirming for the very first time it is the skull of a little girl.

And another bombshell tonight. Are grandparents George and Cindy actually seeking full legal immunity? Today they admit to, quote, "conflicting statements" in the past and now want to cooperate. And just hours ago, the defense in court demanding a second autopsy. Grandparents George and Cindy submit to fingerprinting. Brother Lee only gives in when a subpoena forces him. Top federal investigators working around the clock to identify those remains at Quantico. Tonight, are the remains all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Investigators continue to search the remains site for more evidence after saying they have made significant findings at the location.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That information, obviously, and those items are being sifted through, properly identified, sorted, labeled and submitted into evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At a hearing today, an attorney representing the Orange County sheriff`s office revealed that the skull found is that of a little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we will not do is we will not release photographs of the -- the skull of this -- this little girl to then be broadcast all over the news before the body has even been identified, before the parents have been notified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forensic experts are working to officially identify the remains and have sent some of the evidence to the FBI lab in Quantico to confirm the ID. The attorneys for George and Cindy Anthony confirm that the FBI has taken DNA and fingerprints from George, Cindy and Lee Anthony, while the family remains hopeful that the skull found is not their granddaughter.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. In my gut, every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Right. You can feel it. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the best investigators in the country are here at the scene, sifting through the dirt by hand. They`ve already found dozens of bones and other strong evidence that has led investigators to search the Anthonys` home again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re talking about numerous -- a large area that is being sifted through, being gridded out in order to make sure that no stone, no area is left untouched where the child`s remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they were to find duct tape in the Anthonys` home, they`d be looking for fingerprints and DNA that might have stuck to the sticky side of the tape. And they`d be looking to match up the ends where the tape was torn. Now, the trash bag, even if it`s not from the Anthonys` home, could hold a lot of evidence.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, that you can get a real explanation from, that`s known where she has been, it`s going to have to make sense at that point. Once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. I understand police and investigators are still at the scene?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That`s right, and they really aren`t saying when they`re going to be leaving. They said that they`ll stay there until all of the evidence that they can find has been found. Each day, they`re finding more and more stuff. They`ve found, you know, bones pretty much every single day.

That area was also frequented by kids around that, so you can imagine that there`s all sorts of beer cans and debris that`s hidden in there. They have to search through every single thing that they find, so it`s a long, tedious process. Attorney Jose Baez even said today in court that they were taking too long, but Angelo Nieves with the sheriff`s office said today that...

GRACE: Wait a minute. The defense said they`re taking too long to look for the little girl`s bones?

PETRIMOULX: Exactly, and that`s why they want...

GRACE: Man, he`s got a nerve.

PETRIMOULX: ... access to the same site that they`re at.

GRACE: Man, he`s got a nerve because they are trying to put together this child`s skeleton. Does he want the -- does he want her buried with some of her bones still laying out near a playground?

PETRIMOULX: What he wants is access to the site where they`re doing all this searching and where they`re putting together these bones. And he wants to be able to have his experts be at that site while they`re doing this.

GRACE: Straight to Natisha Lance, our producer, who is there at the remains location. What are they doing?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, right now, Nancy, actually, they`ve packed up pretty much for the rest of the night. They will be back out here early tomorrow morning. They said that they actually could be finished tomorrow, but also saying that they could work through tomorrow. So as Drew said, it`s still kind of up in the air right now.

GRACE: What have they been doing out there so late?

LANCE: Doing a lot more sifting. They said that there`s a whole bunch of soil that they have already put to the side, and they are going to go back and look through that again, redoing, recovering. They said it`s pretty tedious. They said it`s an acre of area that they are searching and that they are digging up the soil. And they will continue to continue going over it until they feel comfortable with the fact that they have done their job well.

GRACE: Let`s see a shot, Liz, of the scene there where Natisha is -- Natisha Lance joining us from the scene where the remains were discovered. Natisha, you were in court today, and it`s my understanding one of the state`s attorneys slipped up and actually confirmed it is a child`s skull, a girl`s skull.

LANCE: That`s correct. That`s correct. This was the attorney for the Orange County sheriff`s office, Ann Marie Delahunty. But actually, afterwards, there was a press conference this evening here at the site, and Captain Angelo Nieves from the Orange County sheriff`s office said that this was actually a misstatement, and they said that there have been no definitive results that have come out yet as to gender or the general ID of these remains at this point. And because there`s no definitive results or confirmation, they`re not wanting to have that information out in the public at this point.

GRACE: Straight back to Drew Petrimoulx. Drew, it`s my understanding that there at the scene, they are actually sifting through dirt, like a gold miner would, looking for even the tiniest bones?

PETRIMOULX: Right. And they`re taking a lot of stuff with them. You can -- as you watch their trucks, they`re loading in even sticks, and you know, soil from the ground where they`re actually sifting through that and finding even the most minute little pieces of evidence. And they bring those back to the lab and use microscopes and all kinds of technology that these crime scenes are able to use to see exactly what`s in there. They`re even looking at the bugs that are in the soil to see if there`s signs of decomposition that would bring these bugs in there. So it`s a very complicated process.

GRACE: Take a listen to what happened today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Mr. Baez wants to make a -- turn this into a public records request, we have the ability to pick and choose photographs that we can waive the exemption on and we can provide them to Mr. Baez. What we will not do is, we will not release photographs of the skull of this little girl to then be broadcast all over the news before the body is has even been identified, before the parents have been notified.

We will pick photographs that we believe are relevant, that can help put markers in the ground and may give them sort of a guidepost to what that crime scene looks like. But that will be at our discretion, and we will do that as quickly and reasonably as possible under our ability to waive the exemption to the...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Also, we learned today that apparently still attached to the skull are long, light-colored hairs attached by duct tape.

Dr. Michael Bell joining us out of Palm Beach, the chief medical examiner there. How can that be, Doctor?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: How can what be?

GRACE: The fact that after all this time, the hair is still attached to the skull. Is it just because of the duct tape?

BELL: Most likely because, oftentimes, the hair is one of the first things that falls off with decomposition.

GRACE: Dr. Bell, how many bones are in the human body?

BELL: Well, there`s more than 200.

GRACE: So it`s completely reasonable that they are still looking for bones, Doctor?

BELL: Absolutely. And I can assure you, they`re going to be quite small.

GRACE: What do you mean by quite small?

BELL: Really small. They`ll be very hard to see.

GRACE: Two inches, a quarter inch?

BELL: Less than that. Yes, more like a quarter inch, especially in the hands and the feet.

GRACE: I want to go back out to the scene where the remains were discovered. Standing by is Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who actually is searching -- had been searching for Caylee. Leonard, thank you for being with us. What have you observed today?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: You`re welcome. Well, basically, when we came out here this morning, you could see the sheriff`s crew and at least 30 FBI agents getting ready to go out there. And they`re proceeding much like somebody accused them of doing, which is an archaeological dig. In other words, they`ve got at least an area of 40,000 square feet, which, like Natisha said, it`s about an acre. And they`re going through it very methodical because they have to dig down three to four feet where the little animals that get up in there and take their bones and they take them off to the burrows, their nests.

And there are also -- a lot of kids have buried their parakeets and their cats back there, so there`s an assembly, an assortment of bones back there, and they have to sort through there and get the human bones from the animal bones. You would think it would be that easy, but as the doctor said, there are small bones there sometimes that have to be distinguished.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. On a different note, is it true that grandparents George and Cindy Anthony are actually seeking legal immunity?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s what we`re hearing. Their new attorney, Brad Conway (ph), said in a press conference yesterday, after he read a letter from them seeking privacy, that he will try to seek immunity for the Anthonys, and that they admit to misspeaking in the past, and they won`t make misleading statements anymore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason we stay here very long is, again, because they`re doing a meticulous job out there. They`re doing it very slowly, very methodically in order to make a determination and look at all of the items that are there. If there is something that needs attention, they will continue to provide attention to that. Again, the site will dictate how long they will be here, not the investigators.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When investigators found more bones in the woods, they decided it was time to slow down even more. They`re methodical, carefully sifting through soil, leaves and branches in the large wooded area behind Caylee Anthony`s home. And now they`ve invited more experts into the mix, including specialists in the area of insects and plants, to help determine what happened and how long the bones were here.

Investigators say the skull found here is already in an FBI lab, undergoing DNA analysis. An attorney for the Anthonys says the family is waiting for that absolute confirmation and praying, even though all signs point that it`s Caylee Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Apparently, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony seeking full immunity and want to cooperate with police. All along, we`d been told they were already cooperating.

Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What can you tell us?

PETRIMOULX: About them -- one more time?

GRACE: Immunity. Immunity.

PETRIMOULX: Yes. We understand that that is what they`re seeking, and they have admitted to making false statements, and now they say they`re going to go back and be reinterviewed and this time, they won`t make conflicting statements.

But I have to add that yesterday, through their attorney, they had mentioned that they still believe that it was Zenaida Gonzalez that kidnapped the child. So if they go back and now are going to tell the truth to investigators, come clean and seek immunity, what will they be telling investigators? It`s going to be really interesting to see since just yesterday, they still are talking about Zenaida Gonzalez.

GRACE: OK, I need to get something straight for clarification. Out to Natisha Lance, who was in court today. She is at the location where the skull was found. Natisha, OK, one reporter says they admit to misleading statements. One says they admit to false statements. One says they admit to conflicting statements. What exactly was said?

LANCE: It was said that they were conflicting statements, admitted to conflicting statements, but in these new interviews that they will be giving, there will be no more conflicting statements.

GRACE: You are seeing video right now of the investigators, literally -- it looks like they`re mining -- panning for gold. They are sifting through buckets and buckets of dirt. They are looking at nearly an acre of land, trying to put together all the remains of this tiny skeleton, a skeleton that is widely believed to be that of little Caylee.

Let`s unleash the lawyers -- we are taking your calls live -- former prosecutor Holly Hughes out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Raymond Giudice and defense attorney and author of "Death`s Witness" Paul Batista joining us out of New York.

Ray Giudice, the grandparents want immunity. What does it mean?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, it means there`s some good lawyering on their behalf going on. That lawyer has recognized that whether there are conflicting statements, confusing or false statements, he wants to prevent them from being indicted and potentially be accessories to this crime. He wants immunity, which means they will not be prosecuted for any statements they may have made.

GRACE: OK. Ray, when you go to the prosecutor hat in hand, asking for immunity, do you have to give the prosecutor a proffer of what you believe your clients can offer you? I mean, why should the state give immunity -- I mean, it`s the 11th hour.

GIUDICE: Right. Sure. Well, that`s what a good lawyer like Paul Batista would do. He`d have that level of credibility with the prosecutor and sit down and say...

GRACE: So is that a yes?

GIUDICE: That`s a yes. He`d make a proffer.

GRACE: OK. No need for sucking up tonight.

GIUDICE: All right, Nancy.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: We`re digging for the body of a little girl.

GIUDICE: Well, I`m trying to help him before you attack him.

GRACE: Batista, what about it?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they`re doing absolutely the right thing in requesting immunity, Nancy. You know...

GRACE: But my question was...

BATISTA: Yes?

GRACE: ... do they have to give the prosecutor a proffer, in other words, a peek preview at what the client is going to say? I mean, why would the prosecutor just offer up immunity without knowing what they`re going to say?

BATISTA: Without a doubt. They have to have real and valuable information to exchange in order to get the benefit of the deal, and the deal in their favor would be immunity. But they have to provide something for it.

GRACE: OK. You know what? Maybe I`m the crazy one. I highly doubt it. But Holly Hughes, isn`t it a day late and a dollar short? We found the body, all right? Why are they coming now to try to help the police in the search for little Caylee?

HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: That`s exactly right, Nancy. What they`re doing now is trying to cover their behinds because, so far, they have not been helpful. They have made conflicting statements. Cindy Anthony admitted that when they wanted the hairbrush for DNA from little Caylee, she was going to give them the wrong one, to the FBI. So what they`re trying to do now is look like they`re doing something helpful.

I don`t think they have anything to offer, quite frankly, Nancy. And what they`re doing is, via their attorney, they`re trying to say, Oh, all of a sudden, now we want to do something. It`s too late. They have the body. They`re going to be able to prove that their daughter was the killer of this child, like we have been saying all along. And so they are running scared, Nancy. That`s all there is to it.

GRACE: Well, listen, I want to get something straight, Holly. A lot of people have called in suggesting the grandparents had something to do with Caylee`s disappearance. I don`t believe that. I don`t believe that for a second.

HUGHES: (INAUDIBLE) Nancy.

GRACE: And also, when they publicly lash out at anyone, that suggests little Caylee is deceased or that the tot mom might be guilty -- you know what? When you`re grieving for your granddaughter and your daughter is about to go to the big house, you lash out at things you don`t want to hear.

HUGHES: Absolutely.

GRACE: And I find that not only is it normal, it`s very -- it`s hurtful because they are going through so much. But this whole immunity deal, that`s a whole `nother ball of wax.

We`re taking your calls. Out to Debra in Tennessee. Hi, Debra.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Real quick, before my question, I just want to say this is the saddest thing here at Christmas. This little girl should be sitting on Santa Claus`s knee instead of laying in a cold, dark autopsy room right now.

My question is, do you -- would it be possible for her little dream team that she`s gathered to take this long, long trail of lies that she`s come up with and turn it into an insanity defense?

GRACE: Oh, listen, Debra in Tennessee, where there`s a will, there`s a way. What about it, Ray Giudice?

GIUDICE: That`s right, Nancy. I agree completely. The caller is very insightful on this matter. This holiday time is just -- it`s a terrible situation. There`s no defense lawyer whose heart doesn`t go out to these people and for this terrible tragedy to this child.

GRACE: Well, I think what she`s asking about is, will they be able to make an insanity plea out of this crock of lies we`ve been hearing from the get-go, Ray?

GIUDICE: I don`t think so, Nancy. I don`t believe that.

GRACE: But will they try? Is that where they`re going?

GIUDICE: I don`t think so. I don`t think they`ve laid the foundation for it. I don`t think of they have the science for it.

GRACE: What else can they do, though, Paul Batista?

BATISTA: They can mount the Zenaida defense, if that`s the route they`re going to pursue, Nancy.

GRACE: Oh, the nanny defense. OK. I`ll be right back with Holly Hughes on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve just been waiting for closure. I`ve wanted her found, of course, alive. But if this is what we`ve got, then you have to respect her. You have to respect the little child. And it`s just cruel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body, which evidence shows could be Caylee`s, was wrapped in something before it was stuffed into the trash bag. Casey`s parents, who are in seclusion, provided fingerprints, as did Casey`s brother, Lee, to help investigators exclude them as having any connection to the black trash bag holding the remains, which were found right down the street from the Anthony home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, standing by there at the scene where the little child`s skull was found. Natisha, what are sources telling you about mom Casey`s reaction behind bars? We were told when she found out last Thursday remains had been found, she had to take a sedative.

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. And also, according to her attorney, Jose Baez, today, he said that she is not doing well. She is taking everything in stride. We did hear from the...

GRACE: Taking it in stride! Did you say she`s taking it in stride?

LANCE: Well, she`s dealing with it as best as possible. He said that he`s keeping her up to date with everything that is going on...

GRACE: OK. Quick...

LANCE: ... in terms of motions, court hearings...

GRACE: Just stop. Stop. She could have been in court today. Why wasn`t she?

LANCE: I would assume that it was probably on advisement from her attorney.

GRACE: OK. Is she on suicide watch?

LANCE: No, she`s not on suicide watch. She was on psychological observation, but she was taken off of that today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crime scene investigators chop away thick brush with machetes. In these woods, authorities have set up a grid. Just as archeologist might excavate a historical site, crime scene investigators are scooping up buckets of leaves and soil and then pouring them into these sifting tables, searching through the debris by hand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a process that is going to go very slowly, very deliberately, in order to make sure that nothing is left untouched.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once again, Orange County chief medical examiner, Dr. Jan Garavaglia was out here conferring with the lead detectives. She was joined by anthropologists from UCF, as well as numerous experts on insects, trees and other pertinent fields.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have an entomologist that`s going to be present, a botanist is going to be present, so what we`re doing is bringing all of the proper experts into a wooded area field where this body was recovered and we want to make sure that we do not -- leave any stone unturned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Investigators and police, experts, just now packing up the scene where a child`s skull was found. Now apparently a trail of bones. They are sifting through dirt by the bucketful, looking for the bones of this little girl, trying to complete a full skeleton.

This, as grandparents, George and Cindy apparently ask for full immunity, and agree to fully cooperate with police. Is that true?

I want to go straight back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Our sources state that the skull actually had long, light-colored hair attached to it, with duct tape wrapped around it. What do you know?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Originally, we thought that the duct tape -- or we had heard that the duct tape was just wrapped around the mouth, maybe to keep her quiet or something, to keep her from screaming or crying.

But we have since learned that reports say that it was actually wrapped all the way around the head with flesh stuck to the duct tape and also hair that was similar to the color and length of Caylee`s.

GRACE: Flesh still on the duct tape?

PETRIMOULX: That`s what reports are saying, Nancy. And I know it`s.

GRACE: What reports? What, what report?

PETRIMOULX: These are leaks that come to different news agencies from, you know, people that are at the scene, investigators. I mean we`ve been getting these leaks throughout the case. It`s hard to pinpoint exactly who`s saying them, but there are reports from investigators inside the scene.

GRACE: To Holly Hughes, former prosecutor -- Holly, you know, the caller from Tennessee, Deborah, just called in, talking about this child should be home at Christmas. And not on one of those metal tables you and I are familiar with in autopsy.

The -- this -- what I am hearing now is stunning. It`s very upsetting. That the child`s flesh may still be on the duct tape? And they`re not seeking the death penalty?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Nancy, it`s absolutely heart breaking. But from an evidentiary standpoint, we should be grateful as prosecutors that some of that evidence still remains. You`re absolutely right. You know, and I used to tell my juries that when I was doing a murder case.

GRACE: Well, I`m glad you can look at it that way, Holly. I`m glad you can look at it that way like, you know, you`re in a -- laboratory. But I`m not necessarily grateful that the child`s flesh is still on the duct tape.

HUGHES: Well, Nancy, it`s going to provide great evidentiary value. And ultimately, in order to get justice for Caylee, what we need is good, hard, scientific evidence. This way it`s not an eyewitness that they can say lied, it`s not somebody who got their facts wrong.

Science doesn`t lie, Nancy. And when you have to have such a terrible, terrible tragedy like this, you need to find the silver lining. You need to get justice for Caylee and what`s going to enable us to get that justice is this great forensic evidence that we`re recovering.

There is just no other way to look at it, Nancy. As a prosecutor, you know, you laugh or you cry. You have to find a way to get through these horrible, horrible emotional times and that is focusing on your case and providing the best evidence you can in order to get justice for this baby, who should be on Santa`s lap at Christmas.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla there at the scene. Is that what your sources are telling you regarding the flesh on the duct tape?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: Absolutely. And furthermore, if they can just retrieve a portion of a long -- a piece of a lung to see the nitrogen content, the oxygen content, the chloroform content, they can also evaluate whether it was chloroform or some other situation that led to her death.

I -- I know you disagree with me, but I still maintain the duct tape was placed there on the 18th, two days after the child was dead. She did it in order to make it look like a kidnapping. It was not used to cause the child`s death.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell.

PADILLA: Chloroform was the (INAUDIBLE) to do that.

GRACE: . joining us out of Miami, is it possible that this much later, Doctor, there is still flesh?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think what they`re probably referring to is when the body decomposes, the outer layer of skin sloughs off. And I suspect that`s probably what they`re referring to.

GRACE: Is that possible? Is that -- does that sound reasonable to you after six months?

BELL: Yes. I mean, if they found hair -- again, hair is nothing more than appendage of the skin. So there may well be still pieces of skin. Again, it`s the outer layer of skin. It`s not the entire layer of skin.

GRACE: Joining us tonight from Vancouver is Professor Rolf Mathewes. He`s a biological sciences professor. He`s a forensic botanist at the Simon Fraser University.

Professor, thank you very much for being with us. Professor, what would an expert like yourself, an expert in forensic botany, play in a crime scene like this one?

PROF. ROLF MATHEWES, BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES FORENSIC BOTANIST, SIMON FRASER UNIV.: Well, there`s a number of options, but one of the first things on the cases that I`ve worked up here in Canada would be to look for something that was foreign to the scene, like plant material that was not native to the area where a body had been recovered, for example.

Something -- flowers from a garden or from house plant or leaves tracked in from a car mat that shouldn`t have been to that site, because that plant doesn`t grow there. That`s often included to make a link or a connection to another person, another site or something.

And secondly, when you go to a site like this, there`s a whole bunch of local site things that need to be done after you photograph it all at its original state. That can be very important, actually, before you start cutting a trail and then collecting evidence.

There`s all sorts of things that might relate to disturbance at the time, someone walked in to drop a body, they would break branches or stir up the vegetation in some way. If there was some sort of a grave dug, the turning and disturbance of soil will often cause local vegetation to change.

You will see young plants coming up that were not necessarily there initially, and they will actually (INAUDIBLE) or a grave area. See, I -- all I have is reports from CNN and watching your show. I have no direct connection to this case in any way. But I`ve worked on similar cases in Canada, and intrigued by some of the similarities.

GRACE: Professor Mathewes, quickly, I believe that plants found under water are different from those found above ground. And how could that in this case help determine when the body was placed there?

MATHEWES: Again, I don`t know the specifics of the case, but I understand the site was wet. But I suspect since Caylee disappeared, I think I believe sometime in mid June, I suspect it may have been dryer, and you know, that wetness may be part of the fall changeover and climate and weather.

GRACE: Right.

MATHEWES: So it`s very hard -- certainly water plants are going to be very different. And if water plants are intimately associated with it, that tells you something about when the water level was high enough to.

GRACE: Right. Right.

MATHEWES: . have aquatic plants there.

GRACE: With us is Professor Rolf Mathewes joining us from Vancouver.

Very quickly to the lines, Laura in North Carolina, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m wondering how -- I can understand Jose Baez defending Casey pro bono. Everybody is entitled to a good defense. But how is she getting all of these high-profile attorneys and forensic specialists to defend her?

GRACE: Good question. You know, I asked Dr. Henry -- I asked Dr. Henry Lee that on the air and he told me he was working the case pro bono.

What about it, Nikki Pierce? It`s quite an assemblage of experts they`ve got.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It certainly is. And Jose Baez has not directly said one way or the other who is being paid and who isn`t, and how they`re being paid. We do keep hearing pro bono being tossed around a lot. Even Brad Conway, the grandparents` new attorney also said yesterday in a press conference that he was working for free. So we`re not hearing about how anything is being paid for.

GRACE: Very quickly, to John McKillop, former homicide detective at Glendale P.D. with Noble Security, joining us from L.A.

Question: the FBI have taken DNA samples from George and Cindy Anthony. Why?

JOHN MCKILLOP, FMR. HOMICIDE DET., GLENDALE P.D., V.P., NOBLE INC. SECURITY: Well, they have to assemble as much evidence as they can early on. It`s going to be either used to include or exclude everyone involved in the case.

GRACE: When will they release this crime scene?

MCKILLOP: You know, I hear timeframes all the time and I can tell you this. No one should be discussing timeframes. It will be -- it will be released when it`s done.

GRACE: With us, John McKillop, former homicide detective and now V.P. at Noble, Inc. Security out of L.A.

Very quickly, we are stopping to remember the mother of Tennessee friend of the show, Martha Dugger. She was 87 years old. Evelyn Addison. She was so proud of her six grandchildren, her children, her five great grandchildren.

She actually worked for the government during World War II on a secret project. It turned out to be the atomic bomb. A few years ago, she was diagnosed with Alzheimer`s, and she battled it bravely, to the end.

We miss you, Evelyn, and our thoughts and prayers to you and your family at this time of sorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It almost never happens. A murder victim and crime scene discovered and processed weeks after a defendant is already indicted in the murder. But that`s what defense attorneys Jose Baez and Jose Garcia are dealing with as they try to get the evidence to their team of experts before its value is lost.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We are in a situation where it is no longer a crime scene. It has become more of an excavation site.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Stan Strickland denied the motions for immediate access to photos, videos, and drawings of the scene and to block the medical examiner from doing more tests that may alter the remains.

Strickland also suggested the defense experts` visit to the crime scene Saturday may have just motivated authorities to be more thorough and take more time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) you have time clock on an investigation and if law enforcement doesn`t do an absolutely exhaustive job, then defense counsel is going to argue that his investigation was completely shoddy and incompetent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The judge just hours ago denying the defense motions for their being present there on the scene while the excavation is taking place for their representatives being at the FBI crime lab while the tests are being done. A myriad of requests made in court today by the defense.

Casey Anthony had the opportunity to be in court today, but declined to do so.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Jennifer in Maryland. Hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First I want to thank you for following this story so closely. It`s really heart-breaking.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, has Casey ever given a description of this Zanny, the pretend nanny, at all?

GRACE: Oh, yes.

Out to Natisha Lance, what is the description she gave of Zanny, the nanny, the alleged kidnapper?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: She said that she was about 5`7", 140 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. This brown hair was curly, but it had been straightened and previously in her interview she has said that this nanny was biracial, African-American and Hispanic.

GRACE: I want to talk about the fact that the grandparents are -- George and Cindy Anthony, are apparently requesting full immunity.

Natisha, you stated that their representative says they have given conflicting statements in the past. But they`re still sticking with the nanny did it? How can that be?

LANCE: Yes. This is according to their attorney, Brad Conway. He is saying that they still believe that Zenaida Gonzalez is involved with this investigation, and with the missing of Caylee Anthony.

Now, he also said that he is going to be meeting with prosecutors to seek immunity for the Anthonys and whatever conflicting statements that they have had in the past, they will not be making these conflicting statements in the future when they meet with investigators.

GRACE: But, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, joining us from New York, can they be trusted, Doctor? Because not that they`re intentionally trying to hurt the investigation, but they are intentionally trying to protect their daughter.

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well.

GRACE: And do you blame them? I -- don`t necessarily blame them. But how can they one day say nanny -- the nanny did it, and the next day say we want to be straight with cops, and PS, we want full immunity.

TAYLOR: Well, I think there are a couple factors here. The first is they are parents and as parents`, their first job and primary job is to protect their daughter, and then they`re also facing the loss of their grandchild in a very just horrible way. And it is a tragedy.

But secondly, this has been a grueling process, six months. I mean, the only thing that`s probably been able to keep them going on, facing the media, looking for Caylee, is the fact that they believe that someone else took their granddaughter.

If they didn`t believe that, I would think it would be impossible for them to sustain the level of energy that they have had.

GRACE: You know, Doctor, I think you`re absolutely correct. And I`m being an armchair shrink now, but they have, even when they`re lashing out at those of us that suggest little Caylee was deceased, and that the tot mom is responsible. Even when they`re lashing out, they seem real and genuine, and acting out of love for their daughter. But at this juncture, they have got to realize that they have been misled.

Doctor, will they ever really believe it?

TAYLOR: Well I think, you know, when the technology comes in and when the forensics come in, if, in fact, it is little Caylee, then I think they`re going to have to believe it and try to figure out exactly what happened to their granddaughter.

And if their daughter is involved, that will definitely change their whole perspective and their demeanor.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who has searched for little Caylee, he is joining us there at the scene where the skull was found.

Leonard, something in that bag, in that black trash bag, made police go back into the night, into the wee hours of the morning, searching the Anthony home, keeping the Anthonys from coming home from California to their own home. They had to go to a hotel.

What are your sources telling you was in that bag? It wasn`t just the bag itself.

PADILLA: No, no. It was the bag, plus the plumber`s tape, plus the linen pillow case, a sheet that she was wrapped in. They needed to.

GRACE: Now how do you know it was a -- how do you know that, that it was a pillow case? Or a sheet?

PADILLA: Because they picked up pillow cases and sheets at the house to compare. The other thing I want to bring to your attention, have you heard the song that the little girl sings about.

GRACE: Yes.

PADILLA: OK. Do you know what the word is that she`s -- that is hard to understand? It`s not "Don`t take my sunshine away." It`s "Don`t take my nana away." That was the nickname that she had for Cindy, so which is a very sad thing. But that`s what she`s saying.

Now here`s another thing. Earlier in one of the recordings there at the jail Casey says that when they find the little girl, she`s going to be able to explain a lot of things as to where she has been and things of that nature.

This little girl, when they get her in that lab in Quantico, she is going to speak volumes louder than Casey ever thought. She is going to give up liquids, in the lungs possibly, nitrogen, oxygen, she`s going to give cause of death, when, where and how. She`s going to speak volumes.

GRACE: Back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Conflicting reports tonight as to whether flesh was actually attached to the duct tape, wrapped around the child`s head. What can you tell me about pillow cases or linens being found in that bag?

PETRIMOULX: I know that pillow cases were taken from the Anthony house when they went back and served that latest search warrant on the house, was something that was taken along with vacuum cleaners and some chemicals from the house.

And you know, what I`ve talked to people that said that that was possibly for is that if there was hair found in that bag, they may have been trying to take pillow cases from the house to try to recover hair from the house so they can compare those.

If you remember, there may be some discrepancies over the hair that they originally recovered from the house because Cindy may have gave (sic) them the wrong brush.

GRACE: Right. Right.

To Liann in Texas, hi, Liann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, since the bones have been found, nobody has mentioned about how she looked up how to properly break a neck. And yet they say the duct tape was first around the mouth, now they`re saying it was around the whole head.

Well, that`s my question. My daughters and I keep wondering why haven`t they mentioned about her breaking the neck.

GRACE: Well, apparently, they`ll have to get the bones to the crime lab to determine whether the neck was actually broken. Isn`t that correct, Dr. Bell?

BELL: Yes, although the neck is fairly flexible on a child. And it may be impossible to see any fractures themselves. You can still break it and not leave any fractures.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: We miss her. We love her. I miss her, I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs with her family.

It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back. Because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being, that we will be with her again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. Holly Hughes, Ray Giudice, Paul Batista.

In a nutshell, Paul Batista, we understand that while the grand parents George and Cindy submitted to fingerprinting, that brother Lee wouldn`t. He only gave in when issued a subpoena. Explain.

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, the government has the right to fingerprints and hair samples and DNA. And you can voluntarily turn it over, Nancy, or it can be compelled through a subpoena, and apparently the brother waited for that to happen.

GRACE: And my question, I`ll repeat it to Holly Hughes, why? Why not? If you are willing to cooperate and you want to help find your niece, why do you insist on a subpoena?

HUGHES: He`s not willing to cooperate. He is furious at the authorities for arresting his sister. He is still acting out. This is the man who went out and ripped down a memorial to his 3-year-old niece.

GRACE: Well, you know, on that.

HUGHES: Why would he do that?

GRACE: On that -- I don`t know but I see that as acting more out of grief. But the fingerprint thing -- and very quickly, Ray Giudice, these tapes, if this is little Caylee, show her leading her family down the garden path all these months.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, look, it`s going to be game over on this case pretty soon. Not to be frivolous. The technology and the science is going to come back. There`s a real reason why the parents are -- the grandparents are seeking immunity.

GRACE: You know what, Ray, on this count, I have to agree with you.

Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Jason Cox, 21, Elyria, Ohio, killed Iraq. Loved to work with his hands. Rebuilt a Mitsubishi with his buddies before shipping out. Wanted to become a diesel mechanic. Planned to be married.

Leaves behind parents Gregory and Kathy, brothers, Matthew and Ryan, also active in the military.

Jason Cox, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And happy birthday to one of our superstars, Rachel. She ducked out on us yesterday to avoid this close-up.

Happy birthday, sweet girl.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/16/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Evidence at Anthony Home Reportedly Tied to Remains Location

Aired December 17, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Incredible! Nancy has the very latest in the Caylee Anthony case. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. We are waiting for a formal announcement, expected at any moment, officially declaring a child`s remains to be that of little Caylee.

At this hour, police and forensic experts still on the scene for skeletal remains believed to be Caylee found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home, reports that experts now working off a tooth and a hair found at the scene, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a human skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, the skull apparently covered in long, light-colored hair, still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s tiny head.

And contrary to what police earlier said, clothes were found inside the trash bag. Is this why cops are so sure it`s Caylee? Deputies still - - repeat, still -- digging, searching, even sifting through buckets of dirt for more remains. We have confirmed tiny bones still being found scattered along the same location as the skull.

Tonight, bombshell. Reports surface items seized during a late night search of the Anthony home now positively linked to evidence at the crime scene. What was found in or around that trash bag? Late reports confirm little Caylee`s sheets were seized by police. Why?

The jailhouse calls in a local pastor to speak with the tot mom behind bars as the case closes in around her. Federal experts still working around the clock to ID the child`s remains at the FBI lab, Quantico. And what has become of grandparents George and Cindy`s request for complete immunity? Tonight, are these scattered remains all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say the FBI`s evidence response team and county CSI workers are still finding evidence in the palmettos, brush and dirt that they piled up along the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to reports, something found inside the Anthony home during an execution of a search warrant has been linked to evidence found at the remains site, which is less than half a mile from the home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We continue to make additional discoveries here at the site, continue to gather that information, gather that property and continue to label and properly address that in order that it can be booked into our evidence section and continue to process the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives have not revealed what the evidence is, but were initially led to the Anthony home after significant findings were made in the area where the skull and other bones were found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This site is going to dictate the importance of what we`ve recovered, how much we`ve recovered and the determination by our investigators, the crime scene technicians, as well as the experts in their disciplines coming in, speaking with our investigating and making the determination how much longer do they need to go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As investigators continue to sift through dirt for more physical evidence, tot mom Casey Anthony remains behind bars, awaiting her trial on capital murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pastor Shane Stutzman has been meeting with mother Casey Anthony since she was first arrested in July, a month after anyone last saw her daughter, Caylee, alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) specifics (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While the Pastor Stutzman says he`s bound to keep secrets Casey may tell him confidential, he admits she needs all the help she can get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details emerge in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Items seized from the Anthony home have reportedly been linked to evidence discovered at the scene where a skull and other remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are continuing to sift through the wooded area and recovering significant finds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators executed a search warrant at the home after something of interest found at the remains site led them to the home, less than half a mile from where the remains were discovered. Investigators continue to search the area for clues, looking through dirt and branches at the scene for additional evidence. A sheriff`s office spokesperson says that authorities plan to stay at the active crime scene until at least tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expected that it might have been late this afternoon that this scene might have been able to be cleared. As we continue to discover items on the scene, we will continue to hold the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, the Orange County medical examiner and FBI forensic experts continue testing on the remains, hoping to get an official identification any moment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony received a visit from her pastor yesterday and maintains her innocence in her daughter`s disappearance.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Dad, I can`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. That doesn`t matter because I know it`s not true and everyone that knows me knows it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What`s the latest?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, the latest is we`re waiting for this press conference where Orange County detectives are going to tell us who these remains belong to. You know, what they said they`re going to do is they`ll tell the parents. Immediately after that, they`ll hold a press conference. They did hold a press conference this afternoon, and everybody`s waiting on pins and needles, thinking that this is the one. It turned out that it wasn`t.

Also, we got confirmation today that items at the crime scene have been connected to the house. So there is some connection between the house and this crime scene. Also, the state confirmed today that there was clothing found at that crime scene inside that plastic trash bag where the remains were also found.

GRACE: And Natisha Lance, standing by at the location where the remains were discovered, what can you tell me about a sheet of little Caylee`s bed being taken from the Anthony home during that late-night search?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, I spoke to the former spokesperson, Michelle Bart (ph), today, and she told me there were previous reports saying that pillow cases were taken from the home. She said, actually, no pillow cases were taken from the home. All of them have been accounted for. However, Caylee`s sheets were taken from the home in that search by police.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Why? Why the sheets off Caylee`s bed?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, there had been talk that the body had been wrapped in a sheet inside that plastic bag. There also could be some kind of trace evidence, try to match that up. You can look on the label of the sheet, go back and find out where it was purchased, when it was purchased.

You know, this could be a big break in this case, you know, but we`re just still awaiting, number one, the identification from the FBI lab in Quantico, and now they`re also working on building that homicide case against Casey Anthony.

GRACE: And Nikki Pierce with WDBO, what can you tell me about the jailhouse calling in a pastor to meet with the tot mom behind bars?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, as we heard, when she first heard the information on Thursday, she -- according to some sources, she had a bit of a meltdown and requested a sedative. She was just removed from psychological observation, which we hear is not the same as a suicide watch. But when she was, the first day that she was removed from that psychological observation, they called in a pastor from the church where they`ve been holding the vigils for little Caylee every week.

GRACE: And I want to clarify something, Nikki Pierce. The tot mom did not request a pastor to come. The jail asked for him to come, correct?

PIERCE: Correct. That`s correct.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney, and Mickey Sherman, famed defense attorney out of LA tonight, the author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" The pastor has already made statements to the press, none of them divulging what the tot mom said behind bars. But I`m telling you, Mickey Sherman, there`s no way she cracked and told the preacher anything.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we should -- we`re not going to know it and we`re not supposed to know it. There`s a priest-penitent privilege. When you talk to a priest or a pastor, it`s not supposed to be divulged to anybody, authorities or anyone else. That`s the obligation of the pastor.

GRACE: Renee?

SHERMAN: And if he does it...

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. It is the pastor`s obligation, but the pastor cannot waive that. The only person that can waive that privilege is the defendant, Nancy.

GRACE: We are waiting for a formal announcement expected at any moment, officially declaring these remains to be those of little Caylee. Reports surfacing from the location that experts are currently working off a tooth and a hair found at the scene.

Now, in an unusual twist -- back to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the location -- it turns out this was a frequent hang-out of Casey Anthony`s. In fact, she used this area as a pet cemetery.

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. According to her friend, Kio Marie (ph), this is a place that they actually called "the zone," and they would go hang out there, eat, hang out with friends, possibly smoke. And she said that this is a place where Casey actually went and buried her hamster and kids in the neighborhood would use this area as a pet cemetery of sorts.

GRACE: I`m going to go to a special guest joining me tonight, Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner out of Broward County. He is the author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: You`re welcome.

GRACE: Do you believe the medical examiner will determine that this is, in fact, a homicide? And why?

PERPER: Well, that`s my opinion, that he will do so in view of the fact that the body or the skeletonized remains show this tape on the face, which clearly indicated that the child was assaulted. And therefore, she had this tape when she was alive and when she died and after that. So this, in conjunction with a circumstantial story, with the lies of the mother, with the proximity of finding the body so close to the house, and the additional evidence, I think that amounts to a clear evidence of homicide. And I`m sure that the medical examiner would make that determination.

GRACE: A very important question, Dr. Perper. Would the skeletonization of the remains be consistent with the time the child disappeared? Can you look at the degree of skeletonization and determine when the child was dumped, when this body was dumped?

PERPER: Yes, it`s possible to do it within a reasonable range of time. And in this particular case, we know for sure when the child disappeared. So that`s going to be quite -- quite feasible and relatively easy.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, standing by where the remains were located. In court, it was stated that a portion of these bones would be macerated. Explain.

LANCE: Yes. It was indicated that three inches of these bones would actually end up being destroyed so that they could do the toxicology testing, and the maceration process would also go into that.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, in maceration, any flesh or soft tissue would be taken off the bone, Natisha?

LANCE: That is correct. However, the county attorney said that if there is any flesh on these bones, they will be -- go through this maceration process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We`ve got to get that little girl back in any way we can. And we`re doing everything we can.

CASEY ANTHONY: My only concern -- I gave Lee a statement. I want him to speak to whoever, the media, give them a statement specifically from me. He`s going to give them an exact quote. She`s my only concern.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: They can take our whole house down. They can level it. They can dig a big hole. I don`t care what they want. Caylee`s not there.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You want to take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care. You do what you need to do to bring my granddaughter back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Items seized from the Anthony home have reportedly been linked to evidence discovered at the scene where a skull and other remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An attorney for the Anthonys says the family is waiting for that absolute confirmation and praying, even though all signs point that it`s Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The last six months have been the hardest six months of our lives, and we understand that the ongoing investigation and prosecution of our daughter, Casey, will consume our lives with conflict."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) from the beginning, we`ve been very thorough with this. And whoever this child may be -- and of course, we`re all assuming that it`s Caylee -- and, you know, that we want to be thorough and we want to make sure that we do things right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As we go to air tonight, we are awaiting a press conference, officially declaring these remains to be that of little Caylee Anthony, the remains found just 15 homes -- 15 homes away from where the Anthonys live.

I want to go back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO radio. We know they have a skull. We know that hair is attached with duct tape. That is enough to make a positive ID on dental records alone. What are they waiting on?

PETRIMOULX: It`s hard to say exactly what they`re doing there, but we also -- I`d like to add that there`s been reports that they`re also using a tooth from the scene that they found, along with the hair, and they`re using all that at the FBI labs to try to make an ID on this body. Like you said, we`re expecting this press conference any second now. It could happen tomorrow. They said that they`ll be at the scene still tomorrow. But you know, any time they call a press conference, that could be it.

GRACE: I want to go to Marc Klaas, the founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. He is a victims` rights advocate and a friend of our show. He is also a crime victim. His daughter, Polly, went missing of her own home many years ago and was murdered.

Marc Klaas, thank you for being with us. Marc, a lot of people have suggested the police somehow screwed up because the body was so close to the home and they didn`t find it. I disagree. What`s your take?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, my take is probably very similar to yours. When they were told about that location where the body was ultimately found, that this was some place that Casey used to like to hang out, they went to that area, and it was covered in water. And in fact, they brought cadaver dogs to that area then and later in September. But still, there was too much water covering the area, so the cadaver dogs were unable to get a positive hit.

Now, I would further suggest that if they had been more aggressive in their search for evidence in that area, and if they had, say, dredged that particular area, they could have easily destroyed the very fragile evidence that ultimately is going to resolve the case. So I think that law enforcement and all of the search teams that were involved have done exactly the right thing.

GRACE: Well, Marc, I think the evidence is bearing out what you`re just pointing out is correct because if they are truly working off one tooth, that means that the remains have been so scattered, all the other teeth are missing, they have not been found, if that report is correct.

And to Natisha Lance, standing by at that location, what can you tell me about clothing in the bag?

LANCE: Well, according to a report, there was clothing found in the bag. Now, this is very contradictory to what Sheriff Kevin Beary had said a few days ago, saying that there was no clothing, but this new report says that there was clothing actually found in this bag.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who`s been on the case from the beginning, actually helped to look for little Caylee. He is also there at the location where the skull was found. Weigh in, Leonard.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, the clothing, according to my understanding, was a small swimsuit and part of a dress. Now, one of the other things that`s happened is the little critters have gotten in there and they`ve torn the bag. They`ve taken the little bones and everything and scattered them over an area that`s probably three quarter of an acre to an acre.

And the thing about it is, like Marc just said, it`s a good thing they called off any further searching in there or any dredging because it`s bad enough that the animals have scattered the remains. One of the things that they do in a situation like this is they want to get as many of the remains because eventually, the body will be turned over to the family and they don`t want to just have a couple of bones that they did DNA testing on and forget about the rest of it. They want to do a complete job.

And that`s what they`re doing. They`re being very, very methodical about it. And sometimes, like the spokesperson for Baez, who doesn`t obviously know what`s going on out here -- they make comments about the sheriff taking too long or they`re digging too deep a hole, or something like that. He doesn`t understand they`ve got 40 people back there. They know what they`re doing. They`re very precise.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Brandy in Michigan. Hi, Brandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question was, over the last week or so, there has been a lot of talk about sheets and pillow cases and brushes being seized from the home. Right after that, the grandparents asked for immunity. Has anyone said anything about maybe duct tape being found in the home that could match the duct tape wrapped around the skull?

GRACE: Drew Petrimoulx, don`t you imagine that`s one of the things police were searching for?

PETRIMOULX: Right. And we know they removed a bunch of items from the house. It`s interesting, also, that came out today, is a Facebook posting that came from Casey Anthony to her friend, Amy Huizinga. It happened on May 26. I`ll read to you word for word. It says, "You lost my duct tape. I was excited to have so much left. That`s why I" -- I think she meant that`s what I get for giving you my purse.

So it`s another interesting thing. She was talking about duct tape on that day. Is that the same duct tape that was found at this scene? You know, we`re just waiting to see.

GRACE: OK. To psychologist Caryn Stark. How many red flags does she have to wave at me before I demand the state seek the death penalty? Here she is going on Facebook, talking about duct tape?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, I mean, it`s not just even that. It`s all the other things that they`re finding and the fact that this woman has just been denying everything that happened. So this is truly the signs of somebody who`s guilty, and I think that`s what you`re recognizing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: Hey, gorgeous, how`re you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell!

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something? You really need to keep your spirit high for all this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something?

CASEY ANTHONY: Trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I know my mom will never forgive me. I`m never going to forgive myself because there`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again, and I don`t want to think about that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An Orange County water meter reader went into the wooded area just off the road to go to the bathroom and stumbled upon a child`s remains. He saw a plastic bag, picked it up and the child`s skull rolled out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK, and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And in my hand, just released is a press release by the defense camp, criticizing police for not rushing the scene and getting out of there so they can come in. You know, that`s really the last thing the sheriffs need at this point, Leonard Padilla.

PADILLA: Well, one of the things that I`ve maintained is that this department is one of the top 10 I`ve ever run into. And you`ve got to say that John Allen has knowledge of how to do this. Whatever the spokesperson for Baez`s defense team is saying, he`s wrong. The man that`s in charge of this here is John Allen. He`s doing a great job. He`s not rushing it because if he rushed it, then somebody would say, Well, you know, we found a bone afterwards.

GRACE: You know, to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What do you make with these ridiculous announcements from the defense? Trying to rush them? They`re out there trying to find every tiny bone, every tooth, every scintilla of evidence linked to Caylee.

BROOKS: Oh, it`s ridiculous, Nancy. It`s just -- it`s just a ploy on them. I used to be one of the team leaders for the team that`s out there right now, the FBI`s evidence response team, and I can tell you, there is no hurry. We take our time. We do the right thing, dot all the T`s (SIC) and cross all the -- dot all the I`s and cross all the T`s, Nancy, period.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your gut feeling up until this point is something is not right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, it`s June 16th. That`s the last time that I saw my daughter and granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got arrested on a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) whim today. Because they blamed me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had someone call us and tell us a shovel was borrowed on a day that -- in close proximity to where the child missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone has researching how to make chloroform on Casey Anthony`s home computer around the time Caylee went missing. Lab tests have shown high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.

UNIDENTIIFED MALE: We had high hopes of finding her alive, and that hope is somewhat diminished.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe. And to be where she belongs, with her family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.

And it`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the first time Casey has had an anxiety attack, and asked for sedatives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wish none of this would have ever happened. I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.

(END VIDOE CLIP)

GRACE: We are waiting for a formal announcement, as we go to air tonight, that these remains are Littlecaylee. By now, certainly dental records or even DNA matches may have been made. We are waiting for that press conference to go down. We expect it at any moment, officially declaring this to be Littlecaylee.

At that time, we also predict a reevaluation by the district attorney`s office as to whether they will seek the death penalty in this case. The child`s skull found with hair still attached, bound in thick industrial-strength duct tape. Just 15 homes away from the Anthony home. I want to go out to the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. To Renee Rockwell, Atlanta. Mickey Sherman, L.A.

Could you explain to me, first to you, Mickey Sherman, apparently the grandparents are still sticking with the nanny did it story? Zani the Nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez. How is it that Zani the Nanny got into the home, got the child`s sheet, wrapped her up in it, and then buried her, coincidentally, in the same place that mom Casey Anthony buried her pets?

SHERMAN: Well, they don`t know. And they don`t have to know. They don`t have to give the answers. All they know is that their granddaughter is missing, their granddaughter is under indictment for murder, and they`re beside themselves.

GRACE: I`m not talking about the grandparents. I`m talking about you as a defense attorney in this case. How do you explain that? The some other dude did it theory.

SHERMAN: Well, I`ll answer that with a question. How do we know that someone else didn`t move that body into the area where the body was found, because the body -- the area had been searched. And as you pointed out earlier, it had been under water. But I think most of the scientists are telling you that a cadaver dog will find and can find the remains of a body while it`s under water. So that may mean that body was moved there while she was incarcerated and that that`s pretty darn exculpatory evidence.

GRACE: You know, Mickey, I admire what you just did. Renee, he completely avoided a question that a child may very well have been wrapped in a sheet from the Anthony home which means the killer had to go in the home, get the sheet, get a trash bag, most likely, from the home, we don`t know that yet. And then bury the child there where Casey Anthony buries her pets.

ROCKWELL: But does that mean that Casey did it?

GRACE: Yeah.

ROCKWELL: What we`re saying so far, does that exclude every other possibility that somebody else might be involved?

GRACE: Hold on. What other reasonable possibility is there? Give me one other reasonable hypothesis.

No! No!

Renee, I want you to answer that. You brought it up. One other reasonable hypothesis.

ROCKWELL: What if, just for example, the brother did it?

GRACE: The brother was not -- no. The brother was not last seen with Caylee. The mother was. The mother is the one that came up with this zany Zani the Nanny did it. Not the brother.

ROCKWELL: Well, first of all, she doesn`t need to be saying anything, because she doesn`t .

GRACE: That`s not my question.

ROCKWELL: Exactly. Let me answer.

GRACE: Try to stick to the question.

ROCKWELL: OK. But, Nancy, what I`m saying is, until they know exactly what happened, all they have is a homicide. There has to be some theory, not that just she is a liar and she is the mother and she was mad at her own mother. That does not a murder make.

GRACE: OK! OK!

I got that you`re not answering the question. Go ahead, quickly, Mickey.

SHERMAN: The Lindbergh Baby was taken from his home.

GRACE: Oh! You`re digging deep. How long ago was that?

SHERMAN: What`s the difference? The Lindbergh Baby was kidnapped from his home, wearing the clothes from the house, so obviously somebody in the house must have been connected. That`s the same logic. It could have been a stranger, it could have been a nut case out there, there`s a lot of strange people out there, there`s a lot of criminals out there.

GRACE:: You`re leaving out -- conveniently leaving out that the mom in this case was the last one seen with the child, and she`s the one that apparently made up a theory that the child was kidnapped by an imaginary nanny. We are taking your calls live. Out to Debbie. Hi, Debbie.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is, up until it was announced that a body had been discovered, Leonard Padilla had posted a $250,000 reward. Once it started being reported that a body had been found, he announced the other night that he pulled that reward money. And I`m just wondering, did he pull the reward money because he thought that he was going to find the body first, and wouldn`t have to pay anyone the reward money?

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, you want to speak for yourself?

PADILLA: It sounds like Todd Black`s girlfriend made that call. There was a $50,000 reward for the body way back. I pulled the reward way back. It wasn`t 250. And the situation was such that the worker now in checking to see if he can receive some kind of reward or some kind of compensation, county workers are not allowed to get gifts, compensations or rewards. We have checked with several people here at the county. So the lady is wrong on all counts. And I`m still trying to figure out how to get him some reward without getting Sergeant Allen all over my butt.

GRACE: We are waiting right now for an announcement linking -- identifying these remains formally as those of Littlecaylee. Back to Drew Petrimoulx. What can you tell me, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony`s request for complete immunity? What`s become of that?

PETRIMOULX: Nothing further. Again, they said that they`re ready to make a new statement. They admitted to making, through their lawyer, and making conflicting statements. They said they`re going to come back, make true statements this time, and in return their asking for immunity.

GRACE: And what can you tell me, Nikki Pierce, about when the pastor came to the jail, and how long was he there?

PIERCE: He was there for about three hours. He came in the morning, from about 9:30 to just after 12:00.

GRACE: Joining us right now, Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist from Florida Gulf Coast University. Professor, thank you for being with us. After almost six months in both rain and heat, is there any chance soft tissue will still be on the bones?

HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, if the remains were on the surface, we would have skeletonized remains anywhere from a week to 10 days. But when you have remains in an area where the water level rises and falls, you can still have soft tissue after many, many months.

GRACE: And what information can be gained solely from a skull, professor?

WALSH-HANEY: Oh, well, you can determine things like the age of the individual, especially with someone who is young and less than five, because you can look at the development of the teeth, so much so that you can narrow down the age just from someone that`s 2 to 2.5 or 3 or 3.5.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the scene where the remains were discovered. Standing by, Natisha Lance, our producer. They were there again, all day today. They have just recently packed up and headed home. They are not releasing the scene to the defense. When are they saying they will release the scene?

NATISHA LANCE, CNN HN PRODUCER: They`re saying that they`re planning to work through tomorrow, and possibly it could be released tomorrow. But at this point, it`s really kind of up in the air. They`re not giving anything definitive at this point as to when this scene will be released.

GRACE: And to Karen Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York, what does it say to you, if, in fact, this is Caylee, as we believe it to be, and the state of obviously going forward on murder one charges, that she buried the child where she buried pets?

KAREN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it shows you, Nancy, that she really doesn`t see a difference between her child and a pet. And we know that about her. That`s her personality, that she can`t have authentic feelings. Any time that you see her on television crying, it`s not to be believed. She went partying. Did the Lindberghs go partying when their child was missing?

GRACE: And very quickly back to Mark Klaas joining us out of San Francisco. Do you believe, Mark Klaas, that the state will reevaluate its decision regarding the death penalty?

KLAAS: Well, they should. I mean, if that body was -- if that -- if that little skull was surrounded by duct tape, that was obviously a premeditated act, and absolutely, absolutely they should go for the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, and the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk. More than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When rain storms chase rain storms go over -- Papa, are you tired, papa?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you tired, papa?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole United States is looking for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that, mom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything is looking for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

UNIDENTFIED FEMALE: I hope she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless of whether she is alive or passed away, we need to find Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not concerned about them finding a dead body, because we believe she is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It leaves my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she is coming home. I can feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re concerned that we`re going to do whatever it takes to make sure we collect all of the proper evidence. Keep in mind that Mr. Baez will probably be the first one to say if we left and we left evidence behind there that it`s shoddy work. They just said that himself yesterday. So, no, we`re going to be here as long as it takes. We`re on our schedule and not on Mr. Baez`s schedule.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: While we were on air tonight, we have gotten a statement from the sheriff`s office there in Orange County, stating that this property, this location, is -- cannot be just released to the defense, as they are requesting. This is private property, and the owner must allow the defense to come on to that private property. We are taking your calls live, and we are waiting for a formal announcement, expected within the hour, that these remains are those of Littlecaylee. Straight to the lines. Tina in Pennsylvania. Hi, Tina.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is, if the defense team and the Anthonys are trying to pin this on Zani or someone other than Casey, couldn`t the prosecution just take the hair that they found in the trunk of the car with the death ring and match it up to the hair that they -- that was recovered from the skull and if they`re an exact match, wouldn`t that automatically put Casey at that scene?

GRACE: Yes. Depending, Mary in Maryland, if the car was proven to be in the continuous possession of Casey Anthony. That`s a very interesting point, a very crucial point, at trial, Mark Klaas, because you`ve got to show that she was in control of that car, and Zani the Nanny that never borrowed the car. What do you make of the whole defense?

KLAAS: Well, I make very little of the defense. I think that what we`re going to find multiple crime scenes here. There is a crime scene at home, there is a crime scene in the car, there`s a crime scene certainly they location where they found the little girl. But, you know, Nancy, when we were looking for Polly, it was always about a quest for the truth, and we wouldn`t listen to anybody`s lies.

But here in this situation, with this little girl, while the police are trying desperately to put together what actually happened to her, you have a mother who continues to lie, you have grandparents who were scrambling to go get immunity. They are continually victimizing this little child, and I just think that the dysfunction in that family has created such a toxic environment that a little girl lost her life, and still -- still nobody there is willing to face the truth. I just think it`s about one of the most appalling family situations I`ve ever seen.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, we`ve got to think about the evidence at trial. We`ve got to think about what can be proved. And we`ve got to think, and anticipate what the defense is going to say, and meet it ahead of time. And I`m thinking about the continuous possession of this car. Of this car. Linking that hair to this body. And getting rid of any theory someone else may have had the vehicle. Weigh in.

BROOKS: I think you`re right, Nancy. And that`s going to be very important when you go to trial. And -- the evidence. They`re building the identification. Now you need the evidence. And the whole time that the car ran out of gas and that`s why the -- the employees at that Amscot are going to be able to say, you know, did they see anyone in that car, did they se anyone leave that car, did they see anyone come back to that car? It`s going to be very important on some of their statements they`ve given police.

GRACE: And with her there at the car stating I ran out of gas, we can place her there on that date. We know when the car was first determined to have the smell of death in it. It`s going to be a very complicated time line to show continuous possession of the car. I want to go to Natisha Lance, there at the location where the skull was discovered.

Natisha, what can you tell me about possession of the car and not only that, Natisha, I understand that there has been a fight, an actual argument, over photos or video of this skull? I can guarantee you, that skull, even if the photo is ever released, will not be broadcast on this show. I can tell you that much.

LANCE: Well, this argument came in court when Jose Baez was arguing the motions he had. One of the motions was to get photographs and drawings and any video recordings of the crime scene back there. And the attorney for the Orange County Sheriff`s Office said, we cannot release photos of this skull and possibly have it broadcast on the news. We will pick and choose and possibly give you pictures that we think are relevant and that we think you might possibly need in order to do your case. But we`re not going to go ahead and give you pictures that could possibly make it on to the news.

GRACE: I understand that the FBI have just arrived there behind you?

LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. Nick savage, one of the investigators who has been working diligently on this case, just pulled up back here. Probably means that they are having some sort of meeting or debriefing at this point.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Renee Rockwell, Mickey Sherman. Mickey, the grandparents now wanting full immunity. Why can we believe them now?

SHERMAN: Well, why can you not believe them? These are people who are in crisis.

GRACE: Because they have admitted to making conflicting statements, number one.

SHERMAN: Well, last I checked, conflicting statements is not a crime, a misdemeanor, felony or an infraction.

GRACE: That`s not what I asked you. I asked you why should we believe them now.

SHERMAN: Because we`re vilifying them. First they were seduced by the press. And then they became their enemies.

GRACE: I`m not vilifying them.

SHERMAN: I`m not saying you .

GRACE: Don`t say we! Don`t jump up and say we! I`m not vilifying them, I`ve defended them.

SHERMAN: Not you. Everybody else. I agree. You`ve seen the scenes of these people under siege with the satellite trucks all around. At first they thought everyone was there to help them. Now they`re absolutely paranoid and I don`t blame them.

GRACE: Renee, let`s talk about the brass tacks. Why should the prosecutor give them immunity now? They`ve got the body, apparently. We`re waiting on that announcement. Why should they give the grandparents immunity now?

ROCKWELL: What if the grandparents through the attorney and through a proffer say, OK, you`ll never believe our daughter but we will tell you exactly what happened. That might be interesting enough. They may not be able to figure that out, Nancy, from the physical evidence that they have now. And maybe the truth would be important to the prosecution.

GRACE: Renee, do you believe the state is going to re-evaluate its position on the death penalty?

ROCKWELL: Absolutely, Nancy, absolutely. Because they don`t have to commit until the jury`s empanelled.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The FBI has just arrived on the scene where the location -- where the remains were discovered. Out to Natisha Lance standing by there. Natisha, what`s happening?

LANCE: Actually, Nancy, they went into -- the Orange County Sheriff`s Office mobile command center is still here. So they`ve gone into that area. We can`t see what they`re doing but I would assume probably have along debriefing about the things they found today. Because Captain Angelo Nieves told us they continue to make more and more discoveries and possibly waiting on that I.D. that could happen as you`ve been saying at any moment.

GRACE: Also, it`s my understanding Natisha, they say they are still finding bones?

LANCE: Actually, they haven`t specified whether it`s bones or not. But they said that they are continuing to make discoveries in this case. Significant discoveries that they think probably will be shipped off to the medical examiner`s office.

GRACE: Have the grandparents come to the scene at all, Natisha?

LANCE: No, Nancy, not that I have seen. Now I did hear word they were outside of their house today for a few moments. But no, they have not come down to the scene. They have remained fairly quiet.

GRACE: And Natisha, I understand that they`re all closeted in that mobile unit. How late does the mobile unit stay there?

LANCE: It`s here all night. All night. It will be here in the morning.

GRACE: Is it protecting the scene?

LANCE: Actually, there`s deputies right behind us. I`m not sure if we can pan over and you can see. But there are deputies right behind us. There`s crime scene tape so that you cannot get past here unless you go past these deputies. And they are on 12-hour shifts. So nobody can get past here without going past those deputies first.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class James Yohn, 25, Highfire (ph), Pennsylvania, killed Iraq. A firefighter, inspired to join after September 11th. Outgoing, free-spirited, loved making others laugh. Killed before the birth of his very first child Jimmy Jr. Leaves behind mother Judith, father and stepmother Robert and Julia, three brothers and grieving wife Amber. James Yohn, American Hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/17/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Worker Who Found Possible Caylee Remains Was Also August Tipster

Aired December 18, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. We are waiting for a formal announcement, expected at any moment, officially declaring the child`s remains to be that of little Caylee.
At this hour, police and forensic experts still on the scene where skeletal remains believed to be Caylee found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home, police expanding the search area after finding a tooth, hair and even more tiny bones. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, and a human skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around this child`s tiny head.

Tonight, bombshell. Did the meter reader who found the child`s skeleton actually alert police with the same tip four months ago, calling not once, not twice, but three times? What went wrong? And just moments ago, confirmation more bones have just been found. Investigators now say the search will go through the weekend. Just released, photos on of the crime scene, 171 images where little Caylee`s remains likely being recovered at this moment.

And despite reports these are the tiny bones of her 2-year-old girl, tot mom Casey Anthony busy behind bars ordering a list of snacks for herself to enjoy, even ordering playing cards as the rest of the country waits for an announcement. Are these scattered remains all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. The meter reader who found the remains near the Anthony home had called police three times over four months ago to tell them about the location.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

922 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We got a -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Orange County sheriff`s department said a deputy was sent on scene to investigate back in August, and they`re now looking into the incident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tip that we received on August 13 was the same individual that reported the findings on December 11. It was the same individual that called in to the communications center and called us this past Thursday that made the discovery. We have three tips from that individual. We are trying to determine the circumstances and the thoroughness of the deputy that responded that day, and we`ll continue to do so in the coming days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also just moments ago, authorities announced they`ve found additional significant skeletal remains today along the outer perimeter of the search area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the search area, we currently are going to maintain the crime scene investigation. The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon on the outer perimeter of the grid area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson said investigators will be on scene searching until at least tomorrow night, while photos of the active crime scene where the remains were found were just released by the sheriff`s office.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, that you can get a real explanation from that`s known where she`s been -- it`s going to have to be because up to that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene. Bombshell. Could the case have been cracked four long months ago?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning details today in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. The utility worker who found the remains believed to be that of little Caylee had called police at least three times in August to report it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to let you speak right now with the representative from our field services facilities. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? The skull (INAUDIBLE) says he believes it`s human.

911 OPERATOR: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the...

911 OPERATOR: Oh!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson said the deputy was sent out to the site four months ago and they are now investigating the new development.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On August 13, he actually meets with the deputy out here at the scene, takes him into the wooded area. The deputy does a follow-up of the wooded area, where he saw a bag. The -- what we`re going to -- trying to determine now is the thoroughness of the deputy`s response.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local investigators and the FBI will continue to search the area where the skull and other remains of a young child were found. A police spokesperson said officers will remain at the site for at least another day, while photos of the crime scene itself has just been made public.

CASEY ANTHONY: She is going to need all of us. We all need to be strong. You need to take care of yourself. (INAUDIBLE) like I told Lee, you need to eat. You need to sleep. You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) she`s not here (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: I told you, in my gut I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, Mom. I know she`s still OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, thank you for being with us -- Jessica standing by at the location where the little remains were found. What can you tell me about this same meter reader calling in the tip three times back in August?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, back on August 11, he called the tip in to Crimeline. A deputy responded out here to Suburban Drive. They didn`t meet with him at the time. They cleared the scene. They left.

Then on August 12, he calls in another tip. This time, it goes to CID, the Criminal Investigations Division at the Orange County sheriff`s office. It gets passed along to a detective. That detective looks at records and sees that cadaver dogs have already searched here, so the detective doesn`t feel it`s necessary to respond out to the location.

Now we`re on August 13. He calls in the tip again to Crimeline. A deputy, a male deputy, responds out to the scene here on Suburban. He meets with the utility worker this time. It`s the first time he met with the deputy in those three days. And the deputy does go back and does look, but then leaves for some reason. Also, he`s backed up by a female deputy who pulls up, and she`s waved off by that deputy and he says, I have this scene covered, no need to worry. And that`s all there was.

They left, and now we are, you know -- to this day a week ago on Thursday, he comes back out here. He`s curious. He used to work in this area. He was reassigned at a certain point, but now he has been reassigned to this area again, and he was curious. He went back there, he looked, and he found what he found. He found the remains of a small child. Now, we`re still waiting to hear, is it Caylee?

GRACE: OK, let me get this straight -- Jessica D`Onofrio joining us from WKMG. She`s there at the scene where the remains were found. The first day he calls in, the cops get there and there`s no meter reader, so they leave, right?

D`ONOFRIO: Correct. The deputy responds, they leave.

GRACE: Yes, no. OK. Second day, he calls in. He`s still saying, Look, people, there`s a bag out there. And he calls in and they look at their logs and see cadaver dogs have been in the area before, so nobody goes out?

D`ONOFRIO: Correct.

GRACE: OK. Nobody goes out.

D`ONOFRIO: Correct.

GRACE: Thursday, he`s, like, OK, I`m going to call again. He calls and the cops come. Here`s my question. When the cops come, did he take them up to where the bag was, or did he point and go, It`s out there, and leave? What went down?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, we`re still asking those questions right now, Nancy, and that is what this investigation is about. That is what the Orange County sheriff`s office is looking into, that specific deputy and how thorough he was. What exactly did he do? Did he go back there and search? How far did this meter reader take him back? So that`s what we`re waiting to hear. It`s under investigation.

GRACE: Or did the meter reader even take him back? Did he meet him there by the side of the road and say, It`s right up there, I`ve got to get back to work, let me know what happens?

Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining me from the Atlanta studio, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor specializing in crimes on children and women, veteran trial lawyer Peter Odom, also out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and famed defense attorney out of New York Richard Herman.

Well, this certainly gives the defense something to gnash their teeth with.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s brilliant, Nancy. I mean, the cadaver dogs were there. They did not alert. All of a sudden, Casey`s in prison. Now, all of a sudden, a bag is found with bones in it while she`s in prison. Obviously, the logical explanation is someone moved the body there while Casey was in prison.

GRACE: You know, Richard, I had a feeling you were going to say that. But what about this scenario, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta? What about the fact that this actually helps the state? If someone spotted the remains there back in August 11 and called police, a concerned citizen, so we can now hone that timeline. We now know the remains were there August 11.

And you know, I used to practice law in front of a judge that was 84 years old, Peter Odom, and he would tell the jury, When there are conflicting statements, you are to impugn deception on no one, but instead, find a way to make all parties speak the truth. That may be done here. Maybe nobody did anything wrong. For all we know, the meter reader pulled up, the cops pulled up and he goes, It`s right up there, and took off.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But Nancy, how about those cadaver dogs in which you put so much faith? If the body was there and the cadaver dogs didn`t smell -- why didn`t the cadaver dogs not smell them? This throws everything into question.

GRACE: I disagree. Eleanor Dixon, you`ll have to show me where the cadaver dogs went. Don`t tell me they just went in the area. The area could be five miles wide. I don`t want to hear the cadaver dog went in the area. You got to show me where the cadaver dog went, when he went, because remember, right after the meter reader saw the bag, according to him, Hurricane Faye hit and the whole area was under water. In fact, the meter reader, after the water subsides, goes back and says, I`ll be darned, there`s the bag. I`m calling again.

What about it, Eleanor? What`s wrong with that scenario?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Nothing wrong with it, Nancy. And of course, the cadaver dogs weren`t called out after that time. And you`ve got to remember, it`s heavily grown. There`s a lot of underbrush. So it would have been easy for somebody to have missed that.

GRACE: Just released, 171 images of the crime scene. Of course, when it is released, we will not be showing photos of the child`s skull. You can see here how thick the underbrush is while cops were desperately looking for little Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I love you guys so much. I miss you. Oh, God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you, too. I love you, too. We`re going to -- we`re going to find Caylee and...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon. The skeletal remains are (INAUDIBLE) consistency of a small child.

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) I miss her. I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs, with her family. It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve searched over 5,000 tips. We currently are following up on some information regarding this particular location in which we received three tips back in August. Again, we are attempting to be as thorough, as clear and as concise as possible with the information that we receive.

There was a window of opportunity, possibly. We had a deputy respond to this location on August 13. We are currently trying to determine the situation of that response, determine what the deputy did on scene at that time with the tipster that we received the information from. And we continue to be thorough as possible in order to determine the circumstances on that afternoon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did the meter reader who stumbled across this garbage bag full of a child`s remains actually call in the same tip back in August three separate times? What went wrong?

Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. That in addition to the fact that just hours ago, even more remains were found. Drew, what can you tell me about the recent remains found today? How far away are they from the original bag?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, that`s what`s interesting about these latest findings. We understand that they were actually found on the outer perimeter of the search zone, which we know now to be anywhere from a half acre to an acre. So you can see that these bones are being found really far away from this original finding was, which explains why it`s taking so long for them to do this search. It`s a big area.

You know, you can see through those pictures that it`s really thick undergrowth, and they`re having to clear out the undergrowth to be able to search there. There`s also beer cans and trash there because we have heard that that was a place where kids used to party. So it`s just a huge area for them to search in. It`s why it`s taking eight days, and they it`s going to go on into the weekend.

GRACE: And this while the defense -- well, there`s no other way to put it -- whines, whines in court, asking a trial judge to stop the search, claiming that the police are taking too long to process the scene. And now after that argument was knocked down in court by the judge, more tiny bones have been discovered.

What about it, Richard Herman? What`s the defense afraid of? Why don`t they want the police to finish the search?

HERMAN: They want them to finish it, Nancy. They just want to be there to observe it. Look, you would agree with me that law enforcement made a mistake. Three times they were alerted to this months ago and did nothing. This law enforcement...

GRACE: That`s not true.

HERMAN: ... makes mistakes.

GRACE: That`s not true. They did not do nothing. Every time, they followed up. They dispatched people out there. In fact, one time they even sent two cars. I don`t know why you`re shaking your head no. Just because they didn`t find the remains when they went out there does not mean they did nothing or that they were derelict in their duty.

Elizabeth, could you please show the scenes, the photos of the crime scene. You know, I know that you`re joining us from a skyscraper in New York, Richard Herman, and you may not be familiar with the dense growth in the Georgia and Florida area, but I doubt even you with a microscope and a machete could have found this bag, so don`t even start with me, Herman!

HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, I know those dogs alert whether the body`s covered in water or not.

GRACE: If they`re in the right place.

HERMAN: Those dogs would have alerted.

GRACE: If they`re in the right place.

HERMAN: Well, they were in the right place, Nancy.

GRACE: Says who, you?

HERMAN: Yes, says me.

GRACE: You can`t laugh it off, Herman. I`m serious. Says who? You? How do we know where they were?

HERMAN: Because the police said they put the dogs through that area, that`s how.

GRACE: Through the area, but where? What area? A five-mile radius? Where? Where were the dogs, Herman?

HERMAN: Nancy, they were taken directly to that location...

GRACE: Says who?

HERMAN: ... where the bag was found.

GRACE: Yes, says who?

HERMAN: Says law enforcement!

GRACE: No. As a matter of fact, Natisha, what did they say? Didn`t they say that the cops looked back in their logs and (INAUDIBLE) cadaver dogs had gone in the area?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They did say that. They said that cadaver dogs had gone in this area. However, according to Jessica D`Onofrio -- and you can probably go into more detail with her -- around this time -- Hurricane Faye actually did not hit until August 20.

GRACE: Right.

LANCE: They said that there were cadaver dogs who were in this area and who did search around during that time...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But could you tell me, Natisha, when you say the area, what do you mean by that? Is it a five-mile radius? Is it -- is it exactly where the bag was? Is it around the elementary school where Casey Anthony went to school? Is it around the house, which is just 15 homes away? Where? Can you clarify for me where the dogs searched exactly?

LANCE: I cannot tell you specifically where they did search, but I can say it was around the general area, Suburban Drive, in this area where they found these remains.

GRACE: You know what? No offense, Natisha, but I already know that. Tell me something we don`t know.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter there on the scene. Leonard, what do you know?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I was really satisfied that God had had a hand in guiding this individual meter reader into the brush because it`s pretty thick brush. And then when this situation developed today, I started having doubts and questioning the situation as to an individual that calls the deputies on the 11th, calls again on the 12th, persistently calls on the 13th.

I`m saying, OK, is somebody guiding this gentleman into doing these calls and then puts him back out there on the 11th of December? I just have questions. Now, I`ll grant you this, that that brush is so thick that you could be standing two foot from the body and not see it. Now, there`s a lot...

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, have you ever seen a case without a big conspiracy behind it? Because apparently there are items within this bag that link directly back to the Anthony home.

PADILLA: That`s correct.

GRACE: To suggest the meter reader is somehow in on some nefarious...

PADILLA: No, no, no, no, no. That`s not what I`m saying.

GRACE: ... plot is completely not true.

PADILLA: That`s not what I`m saying.

GRACE: Then what are you saying?

PADILLA: I`m saying that somebody told him to go there, that that`s where the body was.

GRACE: So then he`s in on it.

PADILLA: Not in a conspiracy form. Not in a conspiracy form.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon on the outer perimeter of the grid area, that continued -- that the grid area has been expanded so the area will not be released probably until possibly either Friday evening, possibly looking into Saturday at the earliest. So we will continue to look into the area, continue to scour, work the grid patterns. And our crime scene investigators with the FBI Tampa team evidence recovery team continue to work the situation here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to be responsible. And from the beginning, we`ve been very thorough with this. And whoever this child may be -- and of course, we`re all assuming that it`s Caylee -- and you know, that we want to be thorough. We want to make sure that we do things right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Stunning developments today in the search for little Caylee. First of all, to Surata in Georgia. Hi, Surata.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, first I wanted to say that I love your show. And I have my little girl and she`s -- I`m a young mother and she`s my world.

GRACE: I feel the same way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And also that since all this new evidence came out with the meter reader finding it -- finding the skull and giving the tip in August three times, and the cops didn`t find anything, are they not going to seek the death penalty? And...

GRACE: OK. Go ahead quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then will we ever know, instead of Casey being the monster that she is, why wouldn`t she just give custody to her parents instead of killing her?

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, to answer those questions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are searching for answers in the case of missing Caylee Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators have been digging in the family`s backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detective Yuri Melich says when they finally got permission to search the car, they opened it up and it smelled of death.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: When we smelled that smell you never get over it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baez does believe Casey will be key in the search for little Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I have no clue where my daughter is? Yes, that is the truth.

She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`d be out searching if she could.

C. ANTHONY: I just want to help find her. I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: I know Caylee`s remains are out there somewhere.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We need to start looking for a little girl that`s walking and breathing that someone actually has her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey? Where`s Caylee? At least where`s her remains!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a little girl found lost from the family`s home and investigators believe bones, hair and other findings point to evidence it`s Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute.

C. ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute. I want -- I want her to be found whether I`m still stuck in here or not, I don`t care.

CINDY ANTHONY: I think when she`s found then you can tell everybody what you know and you`ll be out -- you`ll be released, don`t you think?

C. ANTHONY: Potentially, I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live.

Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What about that question from Georgia?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Georgia asked, number one, if the death penalty could be back on the table. Absolutely it could. If they find that there are aggravating circumstances in this little girl`s murder.

GRACE: You mean like duct tape around the head?

BROOKS: I`d say that`s one -- at least one aggravating circumstance, Nancy. She`s also under the age of 12 and you know, when we find out exactly how she died, there could be more so I`m looking at it -- it can be back on the table.

The other question was about why her -- why she just didn`t give her to her parents. For the most part, Nancy, we know that she spent a lot of time with the grandparents and, you know, they basically raised her up until now.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene where the remains have been found that reports are emerging that during her pregnancy, she discussed giving the baby away and then grandmother Cindy Anthony put the (INAUDIBLE) on that?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Well, reportedly, she had discussed giving the baby away to her friend Kale Marie who had suggested adopting the baby, but then she says that she discussed it further with Cindy and Cindy said no, you`re going to keep the baby and so Casey was -- had Caylee.

GRACE: We are awaiting a formal announcement that these are the remains of little Caylee.

Back to Natisha there at the scene. What`s going on?

LANCE: Right now, Nancy, there are some investigators who are still here tonight. I was told that they would probably be wrapping up around 10 o`clock. They are back out here with a blue light looking at this grid pattern area that they`ve been being looking at for the past week.

They were out here last night as well as this blue light -- apparently, this blue light will pick up different fibers, different hairs, as well as different fluids possibly in the scene, and once again that grid pattern area has extended to about an acre.

GRACE: Now hold on. They are out there right now with the blue light combing over the area where the bag was found?

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Mike Brooks, that the blue light works obviously much better in the dark?

BROOKS: Yes. You need total darkness, Nancy. We call it ultra light source, the blue light, you also use it in conjunction with some orange goggles. As I said previously, I was -- I was with the emergency evidence response team with the FBI, have used this before, and it shows hairs and fibers.

You would be surprised at different fibers possibly from her trunk, possibly from clothing, possibly from the home that just light up under this alternate light source, and you can also use it to find body fluids. But most likely what they`re looking for since they`ve already found in this particular area a hair. They`re back out looking for more hair and possible fibers.

GRACE: You are seeing images from the crime scene, that green tarp set up over where the searchers are and also where the remains were located. According to our producer, they are still out there right now searching the scene with a fine-toothed comb looking for hair, fiber, fluids with an -- ultraviolet light, an alternative light source that does not work in the daytime hours.

We`re taking your calls live.

Very quickly to Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins, he`s joining us out of Washington, D.C.

Dr. Makary, long time no see. Thank you for being with us.

Dr. Makary, we have learned that police believe the remains were dumped. The body of this child was dumped very shortly after the murder. How can you tell that?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: You know, unfortunately, when skeletal remains are scattered and we learned today that they found more, quote, unquote, "skeletal remains" of significant amount, then really the assumption is that animals got into the body, if you can tolerate that thought, and the soft tissue is gone.

So those bruises are not something you can really investigate. The DNA, you`re going to nail a perfect match, but with the soft tissue it`s really not going to be there like it is in most investigations especially when it`s under water.

GRACE: To Jason Byrd, joining us out of Gainesville, Florida. He is a forensic entomologist with the University of Florida.

Professor, thank you for being with us. How can police determine -- how can they develop a theory that this body was dumped so shortly after the murder?

JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: You can (INAUDIBLE) the insects found (INAUDIBLE) on the -- on human remains. The insects themselves develop at a known rate which is based on temperature. So you can go back over the time period in question, take some climate record, temperature data and basically plot on a day for day basis.

So locally, with the insects and come back to within a reasonable timeframe of when the body was colonized by the insects or exposed to that environment.

GRACE: Even though Hurricane Fay left all the water, they can still do that?

BYRD: Well, yes. There is a chance that the remains have been colonized before the hurricane. If the remains were deposited in an aquatic environment then you have the aquatic insects to deal with which are still colonized remains and as the water started to recede, of course, the land-based insects could colonize as well.

GRACE: Right.

BYRD: So it could prove a complete timeline.

GRACE: With me is Professor Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist at University of Florida.

As you all probably recall, all of you court watchers, the first time many people became aware of the use of a forensic entomologist was in the case of Danielle Van Dam, out in California. The entomologist established a timeline as to when a child`s body had been exposed of and we can expect the same thing in this case.

Very quickly, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers."

Bethany, we learned that a couple of hours after the announcement that these remains had been found, tot mom Casey Anthony is behind bars ordering a deck of cards and snacks for herself. Thoughts?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, my thought is this girl has become so adept at telling lies, getting caught, falling apart for just a few minutes and then pulling herself right back together again.

GRACE: I mean Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: That`s happened so many times.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: She just reassembles herself.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany. Dr. Bethany. Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: Yes?

GRACE: My daughter`s remains have been found, she thinks so, I`ll order some pork skins. It`s not fitting together for me.

MARSHALL: I know.

GRACE: Explain the thinking, the mentality of that.

MARSHALL: Well, Nancy, let`s think about this little girl being in the woods. It`s not just that Casey, if she did this, wanted her daughter out of the way, this is a mother who had hatred, resentment, distaste for this little girl. Why?

Did she want her out of the way because she wanted Cindy and George`s attention, resources, money all to herself or, as you pointed out in an earlier segment, maybe she never wanted to give birth to this little girl and also that...

GRACE: You know what, Eleanor Dixon, I know that the defense will argue it doesn`t matter, but I would make it the state`s exhibit that within hours after her daughter`s remains have been discovered she`s ordering snacks for herself behind bars.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Exactly, it goes to the state of mind, Nancy, and you can tie that to her state of mind when Caylee was allegedly missing and she was playing in a bar.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/18/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

DNA Confirms Remains Are Caylee Anthony

Aired December 19, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate today. Word comes just hours ago the FBI forensic lab, Quantico, matches little Caylee`s DNA with a child`s skeleton found in a heavily- wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthonys. Cause of death, homicide. The little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making the manner of death nearly impossible to determine.
Orange County investigators literally on their hands and knees for the last eight days, searching, searching for hundreds of tiny undeveloped bones, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a human skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s tiny head.

In the last hours, the utility meter reader finally breaks his silence, confirming it`s the same bag he spotted back in August. Did he actually alert police with this same tip four months ago, calling not once, twice, but three times? Tot mom Casey Anthony learns behind bars the tiny skeleton is confirmed to be little Caylee, and then promptly turns away a visit from the family pastor. Instead, she takes a visit from her own defense team. Tonight, will there ever be justice for Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11 are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony. This identification was made by nuclear DNA taken from a portion of the remains and compared to a known profile of Caylee Anthony. My examination of the body and evidence is complete, barring no further bones being found, and the anthropologic exam will be finished up shortly.

The remains are completely skeletonized, with no visible soft tissue present and no ante-mortem trauma evidence, meaning that there was no trauma to the bone prior to the death. Toxicology testing is still to be completed on the bone and hair. While this analysis may prove to be informative, it will be difficult to interpret levels from these specimens, and thus will not be definitive in helping determine the cause of death.

The manner of death, though, is an opinion based on available information, including examination of the body, information from the scene, as well as circumstantial evidence. Based on all of this, the manner of death in this case is homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. Six months of searching comes to a screeching halt. DNA confirms tiny skeletal remains discovered just 15 homes from the Anthonys are those of little Florida girl Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is some dispersion of the skeletal remains over an area. A large percentage of the skeleton has been recovered. That`s why we said, for a child, some of the bones are tiny. All of the bones are not developed. They`re in pieces because of the way a child develops. And so there are numerous -- there are -- a child`s skeleton has many more bones than an adult`s skeleton. Some of the bones are tiny, as big as a pebble, and some of those have been recovered.

SHERIFF KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY: This would be a police chief`s or a sheriff`s nightmare case. And it`s got tremendous media exposure. I think there`s been an open wound in the community, and I believe we can start putting some closure to those open wounds and -- having a kid at the -- you know, I`ve raised two girls. Goodness, gracious! As Steve Ibison said from the FBI, the bottom line is, folks, no child should have to go through this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What a day. Straight out to Mark Williams, joining us tonight. Mark, bring us up to date.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Nancy, of course, big news this afternoon, the news we were hoping to hear but we really didn`t want to hear, is the remains found last week by a meter reader are those of 2-year- old Caylee Anthony, found in her neighborhood literally 15 doors away from where the remains were found. This afternoon, "`Dr. G.," the Orange County medical examiner, said those are the remains of those of Caylee Anthony. There was no trauma to any of the bones. And the remains were identified through DNA and the profile of little Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: What do we know about the reaction of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony?

WILLIAMS: Well, right now, what we know is that their attorney, Brad Coleman -- Conway, held a news conference just a couple of minutes ago. He said the Anthonys are grieving right now. They hope no other parents or grandparents ever have to go through like this. Their pastor, Shane Stutzman, is with them right now at their house out on Hopespring Drive.

GRACE: I want to go out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. We understand that the meter reader -- sources say that he says this bag is the same one he saw back in August. Response.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I tell you what, he spoke out today and he says he`s nothing but a concerned citizen. But Nancy, I have a real problem. There were three calls, at least two calls for police service, and one call in to a crime line. Now, the one that bothers me is August 13. There were calls on August 11, 12 and 13.

What they need to do, what the Orange County sheriff`s department needs to do, they need to talk to Mr. Kronk, get the recording when he called in to the Communication Division, find out what time the call was dispatched, what time the deputy arrived there and he met with him.

Now, I want to know what he told the deputy, and did the deputy investigate the report of the bag? Did he point it out to him? And after the end of every call for police service, Nancy, you come back with a disposition. Either it`s 10-8, no report, you get a report, or they type something into their on-board computer. They need to find out exactly what that is.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, it seems to me that reports that surfaced today explaining the entire thing very well. What have you heard?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Are you talking about that -- that last meeting right there between...

GRACE: I`m talking about the meter reader`s three tips about the same bag.

PETRIMOULX: Right. Well, really, the million-dollar question, what happened on that third day, like Mike was just talking about, when that meter reader met with the cop out at the site? That is the one unanswered question. Sheriff Kevin Beary said today that they will conduct an investigation into that but didn`t really say exactly what happened. Did they go into the woods? Did he point out that exact bag? These are all questions that are going to come from an internal investigation that the sheriff`s office is conducting within their department.

GRACE: To our producer, Natisha Lance, standing by at the location where little Caylee`s remains were discovered. Natisha, reports are surfacing that out of the three calls, there was one day where the police came and the utility meter was there, and the police officer said, Hold on, I`ll go search, and was scared away by a rattlesnake who was there in the underbrush. What do you know?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. According to some reports that are out there -- there`s one report that says there was a rattlesnake that both the utility worker and the deputy saw, and the deputy said, You stay back here since there`s a rattlesnake, I`ll go in there and check it out. And then there`s another report that says that the deputy went into the woods, was scared off by a snake, came back out and said, Oh, there`s nothing back there, it`s all clear. And like Drew was just saying, this is under investigative review -- and they are -- administrative review, excuse me -- and they are looking into it.

Now, the other thing that`s interesting, Nancy, is that second call that came in, they didn`t even come out here. It was -- went to the Criminal Investigation Division. A detective looked at it and said, We`ve already had cadaver dogs out in that area, there`s nothing back there. So all these things -- all these answers need to be -- all these questions need to be answered.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Today marks the end of six months since little Caylee was last seen alive. DNA testing from the FBI lab, Quantico, Virginia, confirms remains found just 15 houses away from the Anthonys` home are those of little Caylee. Since that time, grandparents George and Cindy have been in seclusion in their home. We know their pastor`s car has been parked there in the driveway of the home. We are taking your calls live.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Gloria Allred, victims` rights attorney out of LA, Joe Episcopo, renowned trial attorney out of the Tampa area, and Pamela Hayes, a defense attorney, a courtroom veteran, joining us out of New York.

Gloria Allred, who cares? What difference does it make if the cop didn`t see the bag, if he did see the bag, if a rattlesnake scared him, what difference? Shoulda-coulda-woulda. Long story short, they didn`t see it when they followed up on the tip. They see it now. It`s the same bag in the general location as before. And it`s Caylee.

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, the fact is, Nancy, for the defense, this is going to be the gift that keeps on giving because what they`re going to do is, of course, demand that the investigation be investigated, which is already going to be done, according to the sheriff. But then when it comes to the trial, they`re going to continue to raise doubts, doubts about when the bag was there, did anybody tamper with the bag afterwards, how long has Caylee been in the bag, who might have placed her in the bag? That`s what`s going to happen.

GRACE: You know -- out to Joe Episcopo, joining us there in Florida. Joe, listen, these are the same officers that have been on their hands and knees for eight days looking for undeveloped bones of little Caylee. I just am not falling in line with the dereliction of duty by that sheriff that went out there.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, if you`re crawling around on your hands and knees, why are you going to be scared by a snake? No, you know, this is two things for the defense. One, a new suspect, Mr. Kronk, and two, botched police investigation, which you know was a major factor in O.J.`s acquittal...

GRACE: Stop, stop, stop! Stop everything. Put him on the air. You`re saying on national TV that Kronk, who called the police not once, not twice, three times, called the police to report this bag, is a suspect. Do you really believe a defense attorney in his or her right mind would jump up and say that to a jury? You`ve got to be kidding me.

EPISCOPO: Yes, of course they`re going to do it. They`re going to do it from every angle.

GRACE: BS! They will lose all credibility, Pam Hayes, if they come up with that argument. Pam Hayes, answer!

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`ve got to investigate the case. I don`t know what their defense is going to be.

GRACE: You argue that, and you`re all looking at the death penalty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: One thing that her and I always did was Spongebob Squarepants, you know? And I started that and I started to cry, but then I started to chuckle because -- you know, that special little combination of things that I had with her, you know? So realize we love you, we love her. We want you both home. We want you home. Whatever you can do to help us, you know...

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I`ve done everything that I can do from where I`m at. I`m sorry. I`ve done everything that I can.

BEARY: No child should have to go through this. I think there`s been an open wound in the community, and I believe we can start putting some closure to those open wounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Sheriff Kevin Beary. He nearly came to tears today, describing the discovery, these little remains and their DNA match to Caylee Marie Anthony. It`s been six long months since she was seen alive, and today we learn that skeletonized remains just 15 homes away from the Anthonys are those of little Caylee. At this hour, we do not know the cause of death, only the manner of death is homicide.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. We hear that the bones, the skeleton, had no trauma to them. I`m assuming what she means by that, the medical examiner in Florida, is that there were no broken bones, there were no lacerations to the bones, no nicks in the bones to suggest a bullet wound, no tool markings on the bone to suggest that the bones had been severed or lacerated at the time of death. What does it mean, no trauma to the bones?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I believe she said no ante- mortem trauma. I interpret that (INAUDIBLE) to mean that she sees no trauma on the bone that may be related to the cause of death. But I think she`s left the door open, and we`ll just have to wait and see whether there may be actual marks from small animals.

But I think she said no ante-mortem trauma, but that does, indeed, mean that she`s found no evidence of a gunshot wound on the bones, no evidence of a knife wound on the bones, and no evidence of a fractured skull or a fractured arm or leg or ribs. So I think she has excluded any type of traumatic injury before death that would have caused the death of this child.

GRACE: And Dr. Arnall, the fact that there is absolute -- well, let me rephrase. The bones were completely skeletonized. It`s my layperson`s understanding that that means there is no flesh or soft tissue left from which to get a tissue analysis to determine if chloroform had been used. Does that also mean that there were no internal organs left?

ARNALL: That`s exactly what it means. My interpretation is no skin, no muscle, no internal organs. And that it makes it such that if -- if she wants to get toxicology, she has to do it on a bone or bone marrow.

GRACE: What about hair?

ARNALL: Bone or bone marrow or hair. Hair is excellent.

GRACE: What can you get out of hair?

ARNALL: Hair is excellent.

GRACE: Like what?

ARNALL: Well, hair will tell you a couple of things. Hair can tell you what toxic substances she was exposed to at the time of death, but it also may tell you what substances she was exposed to before death. Hair grows about a centimeter a month, so you can actually go back in time to determine what other drugs she might have been exposed to before death for a period of days.

GRACE: Dr. Arnall, would the inhalation of chloroform show up in a hair?

ARNALL: For two reasons, it may not. It may have been a very short period of time. And the chloroform -- the chloroform is volatile. It means it evaporates. This hair`s been out in the open for a long period of time. The reason they picked it up in the trunk was that it was protected. But out in the open, it may well have completely evaporated.

GRACE: Dr. Arnall, will the only toxic substance that shows up in hair be something that was ingested, as opposed to something that was inhaled?

ARNALL: It could be ingested, it could be inhaled, or if this child was in a room where people were smoking marijuana or crack cocaine or methamphetamine, that also might be on the hair, as well.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Tell me about the grid search. What is your analysis?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, it started out -- what my analysis is...

GRACE: Mike, Mike, Mike, what I`m boiling it down -- what I`m trying to ask is, do you think that there are still bones out there belonging to little Caylee?

BROOKS: Most likely not, Nancy. I think they`re almost done, or they are done at the scene. Dr. G. said today that they`ve got the majority of the skeletal remains from the scene.

GRACE: And tell me about the search. How did they do the grid search?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, I`ve got some pictures we`ll show you here on the Telestrator. This is an aerial view. Here is where the body was found. See how close it is to the road here? Now, let`s go to the next picture. And what they did, after they got inside, they put a tent over the crime scene. And what they did, Nancy -- every one of these little pieces here, these are all what most likely would be pieces of evidence. And what they did, they would grid it out. And you see strings along there.

We can go to the next picture. And each one of these little strings - - this is where they start to make the grid, Nancy. And each one of these grids, what they`ll do is they`ll use a global positioning device, and they will do GPS -- we`ll go to the next slide. And what you see, all these buckets here, Nancy. These are taken from these different grid areas. And what they`ll do is, as they were doing the search, with this -- with -- using the sifters, if they found a piece, they would say, OK, it came from this longitude and latitude, so many inches this way, so many inches that way.

That is so when they do go to trial, Nancy, they can say, We found this piece of bone or this piece of particular evidence in this particular place, basically, recreating the crime scene for the jury.

GRACE: And you know what? I know it sounds like it`s labor- intensive, like they overdid it. Not true. You can`t prepare enough for what you`re going to face on cross-examination at trial.

Back to Mark Williams with WNDB. Mark, is it true that just after learning this is little Caylee, that the tot mom turns away her family pastor behind bars?

WILLIAMS: Yes, that happened this afternoon. Reverend Stutzman, Shane Stutzman from the East Side Baptist Church, went to the jail about 2:00 o`clock this afternoon. Casey refused to meet with him. He left at 2:19 this afternoon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As everyone now knows, the remains recovered off of Suburban Drive are those of Caylee Marie Anthony. The Anthony family did not give up hope that Caylee was still alive until they were notified by the Orange County sheriff`s office. They now know that their precious granddaughter is safe and hope that she will serve as the angel that protects thousands of missing children and their families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Still up in the Anthonys` windows, posters to help find little Caylee. They haven`t taken them down yet.

Out to the lines. Patricia in Maryland. Hi, Patricia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. How`re you doing, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Why does the utility worker, one, have a lawyer? And two, what`s the chances of finding a needle in a haystack twice?

GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much, Patricia. If I had people like Joe Episcopo on air calling me a suspect, I`d get a lawyer. I might hire Joe Episcopo. But number two, remember, he called once, got no response, didn`t think anyone had come. He kept calling. And I`ve got to hand it to Mr. Kronk that he didn`t give up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Tell her that I love her, that I miss her, pretty much. It`s a constant.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: She is the light for our day. She is the brightest little star. She has the most amount of energy. She is - - she is extremely curious.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Dear, lord, please watch our little girl, keep her safe until we find her.

Are we going to be able to find her, Casey?

C. ANTHONY: I hope we can, mom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11th are those of the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony. The cause of death will be listed as homicide by undetermined means.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

C. ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much. And she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You know, it just makes my stomach clench when I take a look at George and Cindy Anthony. Look at Miss Anthony`s face as she`s -- as she`s listening to her daughter, her face is just blank, she is exhausted. She is holding on to anything the tot mom says behind bars, listening to it, try to interpret it, decipher it, to try and find her little granddaughter.

Out to Dr. Jeff Gardere, take a look at the tot mom going on and on and on, telling this story behind bars. How could she do it? After all this time, all these hours and hours of watching her on jailhouse video? How did she keep it up?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": Well, I think she was certainly in denial as to whether her daughter was involved in the disappearance of her little Caylee.

GRACE: No, I`m talking about the tot mom. How did the tot mom keep up this facade? I know Cindy Anthony is just hanging on for any -- any words of hope that she can get out of her daughter. But how does Casey Anthony keep this up?

GARDERE: Well, I think it`s part of this personality disorder that we think she has. I think it`s just very telling that she doesn`t allow the reverend or the pastor to come in to talk to her after she finds out that her daughter is definitely dead.

We all know that losing a child is worse than losing a parent, a sibling, a spouse, it shakes your faith. That`s the time that you want to have someone come in and speak with you about your faith. That`s the time that you want to address your daughter is dead.

Instead, she gets down to the business of speaking to her lawyer. It makes me wonder whether she really knew that her daughter was dead, the shock just isn`t there.

GRACE: You know, I want to unleash the lawyers on this, Gloria Allred, L.A., Joe Episcopo, Tampa, Pam Hayes, New York.

Pam, as I recall being a tangential victim of murder, losing someone to murder, when you first learn that in the hours, the weeks that follow, I couldn`t even focus. I couldn`t eat. I couldn`t drink a glass of water. Much less hear some lawyer talking to me about trial strategy. She turns away her preacher and brings in her defense lawyer?

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She`s got a real big problem, Nancy. I`ve been thinking about this. Since the time someone said that little girl was been missing from her mother for 30 days. I think this might be one of the cases that I could not try, because I can`t get beyond just admit. And you don`t need your lawyer to say that.

GRACE: I know. I know what you can`t get beyond, Pam Hayes.

HAYES: You know?

GRACE: You have a little girl. That`s why -- just like Sheriff Kevin Beary today, teared up, talking about this.

What about it, Episcopo, turns away the preacher, bring on the defense lawyer?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s not going to end up in court. No one is ever going to hear that. It doesn`t make any difference.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you if it`s going to come in court.

EPISCOPO: Maybe she thinks.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you that. Why don`t you address what I asked you?

EPISCOPO: Well, I did. I said it`s not going to matter.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you if it was coming into court. I`m asking you what does it mean?

EPISCOPO: It doesn`t mean anything. It`s not going to hurt the case.

GRACE: OK. Let`s see if Allred says the same thing. Gloria?

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think it certainly shows that she`s not -- apparently either in shock or not in need of counseling for that, because she has talked to her attorney. And at this point, I don`t think she`s going to be saying anything, including to her parents, because she knows whatever she says to them is going to be recorded.

This is a person who didn`t help to find her daughter. She gave various reasons for not wanting to help. She is in fear something might happen. Well, now her daughter is found deceased. Is she feeling guilty? Does she still know something that she doesn`t want to disclose?

GRACE: I mean, Gloria, look, you have a daughter, a beautiful daughter, a beautiful granddaughter. If you had heard this distressing news, I just don`t believe you, Gloria Allred, could get down to the brass tax and meeting with a lawyer, and mapping out courtroom strategy. I don`t believe it. I don`t believe it.

ALLRED: I think when you are -- if you`re a true victim, then you want all the support around you that you can get. And that -- and here, if she does talk to her spiritual advisor, to her minister, anything she says is going to be confidential.

GRACE: No.

ALLRED: He can`t disclose it, so she would be safe talking to him.

GRACE: But Leonard Padilla.

HAYES: There`s something wrong with her, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, that`s the understatement of the year.

HAYES: There`s something wrong with this person. It really is. And, you know, I just can`t get beyond, just tell us what happened. How could your child be missing for 30 days, and you find her and her skeletal remains? It has me -- I`m off with it. I can`t get beyond it.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION FROM ORLANDO, FLA.: Well, about a year ago, my daughter moved from California to Boulder, Colorado. She has three of my grandsons. And their cat got killed by a fox. And I was upset for a week. Can you imagine when a child -- dies?

GRACE: You know what, I can`t. I thought that I knew all about being a crime victim.

PADILLA: No, no.

GRACE: But now that I`ve had the twins, I can`t even.

PADILLA: No.

GRACE: . think about it.

I want to go to Tim Miller, the director of Texas EquuSearch. He has searched exhaustively, brought on volunteers, drummed up money for a search, has searched exhaustively through all types of conditions for this little girl.

Tim, what is your -- what was your reaction when you heard the news that this was little Caylee?

TIM MILLER, DIRECTOR, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, SEARCHED FOR CAYLEE: You know, I wasn`t surprised at all, Nancy. I think last week when that body was found, it was pretty obvious that it was going to be Caylee. Of course, they had to do all of the testing and get positive I.D. but it`s -- you know -- even though all of the efforts we put into it, we weren`t prepared for it. It`s still a very, very sad story.

GRACE: But, Tim, Tim, even though we knew it up here, I think a lot of us didn`t want to know it here, in our hearts, until -- I mean you can`t argue with DNA.

But Tim Miller, how long do you believe Caylee`s body was in that area?

MILLER: From the -- back in June when she disappeared. I mean, I was taken to that spot, Nancy. I seen the grass was dead underneath a spot. You can see a little hole in the ground, just a little indentation where that body laid, and I don`t have any doubt after seeing that site that little Caylee was there that entire time, nobody put her there.

Afterwards, there is no conspiracy on that. That little baby was placed there. Casey Anthony let the entire country come and help search when gas prices were higher than any time in history.

GRACE: You`re right.

MILLER: I spent four days in the house with her, and not one time in four days, Nancy, did Casey Anthony say the word "Caylee." Not what can we do to help, or anything. It was just the oddest situation I`ve ever been in.

And Nancy, I remember when my own daughter`s body was found, Laura, after 17 months, I literally took a sigh of relief. At least I knew. And after 900-plus cases on little Caylee, I think I took that same sigh. And, you know, it`s just heart breaking for everybody involved.

GRACE: You`re right.

MILLER: And what an effort. What an effort.

GRACE: You`re right.

Out to the lines, Selena in Virginia. Hi, Selena.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering, how can the defense attorney say that the body was just placed there while she has been in jail, while the bones have been scattered everywhere.

GRACE: You know, Selena, I`ll tell you the bottom line is, because they don`t have anything else they can say. But very quickly, Gloria, can you respond to that?

ALLRED: Well, sure, because a defense attorney`s job is always to create doubt. So they`ll raise a thousand questions, as many as they can, about the body to try to place blame elsewhere, not on Casey.

GRACE: Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live. But as we go to break, happy birthday to Indiana friend of the show, Mary.

Mary, thank you for watching and happy birthday.

And tonight, on a happy, happy note, the twins couldn`t wait until Christmas to give me their present, and I want to share it with you. Here is my gift from little Lucy and baby John-David. Please look. They gave mommy these earrings. They each have their birth stone and their mommy and daddy`s birth stones.

This time, last year, all of us were just out of intensive care. And I believe your prayers and concerns made it possible for us to be together this Christmas. Thank you. And thank you to the twins.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: She`s beautiful. You know that, I know that. And I.

C. ANTHONY: I hear that every day. I know.

G. ANTHONY: I said, you know, that the photos of her are beautiful. But when you see her in front of you, the eyes.

C. ANTHONY: She`s captivating. She is absolutely captivating.

G. ANTHONY: She has a personality that`s -- so, so remarkable. We`ve got to get that little girl back anyway we can, and we`re doing everything we can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People do care. And I think they even care even more when it`s a small child. So it will bring a little closure to the case. But, folks, closure is not done until after a fair and equitable trial.

So now we will be working with the state attorney`s office to make sure that we`re doing the very best we can at every level of government to help in this case to bring this case to a conclusion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The creep factor definitely on the rise, as you watch tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars weaving her story on and on and on. Now that we know this is little Caylee, it`s definitive, it has been decided by DNA at the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, and we hear this long, long story from the tot mom.

I want to go right out to Natisha Lance. What can you tell me about reports that authorities are positive that Caylee`s body was dumped, disposed of immediately after she was killed?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: That`s correct, Nancy. According to a local report, this body was dumped very soon after she would have been killed. And according to the information that we received today from Dr. G., it`s a very likely possibility considering that there were only skeletal remains that were left.

GRACE: And Mike Brooks, what`s your theory?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know, Nancy, I don`t know what the theory is. There have been so many now. You know they have said that she was found in her bathing suit and there were clothes. You know there have been so many speculative theories with the chloroform.

You know I`m waiting for the toxicology to come back, Nancy. We heard Dr. G say today that, well, we might not be able to get exactly what kind of levels are -- were -- you know, in that piece of bone or that hair. But still, the report is not finished yet. I have my faith that we might get a little something out of that.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, what`s your theory?

PADILLA: I would go along with him on what he`s saying that I think that she was dumped.

GRACE: Well, he didn`t really say anything. He didn`t give me a theory.

PADILLA: Well, no, he`s waiting for the reports. My theory is that it was accidental.

GRACE: Your theory is that you`re waiting?

PADILLA: . because she overdosed her -- accidental on chloroform. As far as the toxicology coming in, it will come in and it will tell us.

GRACE: Accidental.

PADILLA: . because there`s an.

GRACE: Accidental death on chloroform?

PADILLA: She didn`t -- she didn`t mean to kill her. She acted on a horrible manner.

GRACE: You give a baby chloroform, and you -- that`s like.

PADILLA: To put her to sleep.

GRACE: . me pointing a pistol at you and shooting and saying oh, well, I only meant to scare you.

PADILLA: I know. I know. I know. But hear, the cops think she was dumped on the 18th or 19th. I think it was on the 24th or the 25th.

GRACE: I want to go to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Cops have also had suggested that she was never out of the area. In other words, there was no Zanny the nanny that took her to Jacksonville or Texas, or anywhere else and then came back here to dump her.

Why do they say she never left the area?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: It`s -- she says -- Dr. G says it`s the summary of the evidence that was at the scene. They used -- there was a skeleton there. Some of the other things that they found at the site, they didn`t exactly specify what, but they said there is really no reason to think that this body was dumped there at a later time or that there was ever any, you know, co- conspirator in this case.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB who`s been reporting on the case from the very beginning.

Mark, what do you know about a bathing suit being found in that bag? Was the child wearing a bathing suit?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150, COVERING STORY: There have been conflicting reports about that, Nancy. There have been reports that there was clothing found in the -- in the bag of bones. Other reports say she was totally nude.

Right now, that is still up in the air, and the sheriff`s department and investigators have not released that. But remember, Casey at one time said they haven`t even found her clothes yet.

GRACE: You`re absolutely correct. I first heard that from Padilla.

Out to Lee Ann in Alabama. Hi, Lee Ann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Your babies are beautiful. I love the pictures in the wagon.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you, very much. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question and a comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of your -- one of your associates had a gentleman, Mark Aglosh (ph) on Prime News today, and Mike Wallace, as well as Leonard Padilla was there. And my question with regards to the chloroform, he said whether it was the first time that she had chloroformed her in order to go out and party, or if it was the 50th time, that that would not cause first degree murder.

My question is, why would it not?

GRACE: Well that is complete and total BS, that`s a technical legal term, I think we can all understand that, because, Joe Episcopo, that in my mind would constitute felony murder.

EPISCOPO: Of course.

GRACE: In the middle of an aggravated assault.

EPISCOPO: Exactly.

GRACE: Chloroforming a child is an aggravated assault. That is a felony and a death occurred during the commission of a felony, and that will qualify for the death penalty, with a child under 12 in Florida. Response.

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all, it`s aggravated child abuse.

GRACE: Yes, it is.

EPISCOPO: That`s the enumerated felony. And yes, that is the best way to get a first degree murder conviction, which will result in life, no parole. I don`t think you`re going to get a death penalty case. You don`t even have a conclusive cause of death.

GRACE: So?

EPISCOPO: You don`t have the aggravating statutory aggravating factor.

GRACE: Come on, Episcopo. I have seen a death penalty.

EPISCOPO: You don`t have them.

GRACE: . come down when all that was left is a glass eye. That`s all that we had left of the body.

EPISCOPO: You don`t have the factors that the law requires for a death penalty.

GRACE: Not true.

EPISCOPO: You don`t have it, OK?

GRACE: Gloria? Gloria? And you know what, Episcopo, I give you this much. At least you anticipate what the other side is going to do. That`s the only way you can win a case.

Gloria, do you believe there is enough for the state to seek a death penalty?

ALLRED: Well, I think it`s going to be discretionary, Nancy, with the state...

GRACE: Of course.

ALLRED: . to decide whether to seek the death penalty or not.

GRACE: Of course.

ALLRED: But, yes, and perhaps they could also argue premeditated murder, as well as felony murder, because allegedly on her -- on the computer at home there was a search for chloroform many months before.

GRACE: Absolutely. Along, Pam Hayes, with household items as weapons, looking up all the ingredients to chloroform.

HAYES: The chloroform goes to her intent to just put the child asleep. As much as I don`t like the facts of this case and you can never win a child killing, you just can`t do it, you know, I can`t believe that she just wanted to kill this little girl.

GRACE: OK. You know what, Dr. Jeff Gardere.

HAYES: I don`t think it`s going to be a death penalty either.

GRACE: What about the use of duct tape? I mean you put it on a child`s mouth and nose, what do you think is going to happen?

GARDERE: Well, I think this is a situation where she didn`t care whether the child lived or whether the child was just injured or was a temporary way to restrain her. So I don`t buy what Pam is saying.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: As the search for a beautiful, sweet little Florida girl comes to an end, we stop and remember and say a prayer for 2-year-old Caylee Marie.

Let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant Nicholas Walsh, 26, Millstadt, Illinois, killed, Iraq, on a second tour. Left study at Southwestern Illinois to re-enlist. From a long line of military vets, lost his life just hours after a last call to his wife.

Loved restoring cars, outdoors, skiing, snowboarding. Favorite place, Glacier National Park. Leaves behind parents Gerry and Donna, step-mom Maggie, two sisters, four brothers, widow Julie, son Tristin and Tanner.

Nicholas Walsh, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and a special good night from California and Georgia, friends of the show, Dan, Steven, Taylor, Alden, Kyle, Kathy and Sarah. What a good looking bunch.

And tonight a special good night from the New York control room. Bret, Liz, Squeaky. Everybody else, see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.

Tonight God bless Caylee. Good night, friends.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/19/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Police Search Anthony Home Again After Releasing Crime Scene

Aired December 22, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthonys confirmed to be those of little Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, Orange County investigators literally on their hands and knees for days, searching, searching for hundreds of tiny, undeveloped bones, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s tiny head.
Tonight, police leave the scene, heading straight to the Anthony house, where the CSI unit executes yet another search warrant, seizing even more evidence, leaving George Anthony visibly upset. What do we know so far? Items taken include little Caylee`s and mom Casey Anthony`s clothing and shoes.

And tonight, the jail announces mom Casey will be banned from any memorial or funeral services for 2-year-old Caylee, a funeral now on hold while the defense seeks a second autopsy. As we go to air, we are waiting on toxicology and other test results. The scene where little Caylee`s remains found now released, but the defense still hasn`t shown up, after days of complaining and whining to get in. Why? Where are they? And the defense sets up their own tip line for leads they claim will prove the tot mom is innocent.

And tonight, primetime exclusive, the man tot mom once accused of being little Caylee`s biological father is on air with us tonight. But tonight, will there ever be justice for Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a very little child are now unfolding a very big mystery.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she`s smiling and she`s happy and she`s -- that she`s OK. We`re going to get our little girl back and she`s going to be just as she was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11 are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No specifics yet on how and when the 2-year-old girl was killed, but authorities say she was a victim of homicide. Investigators are still waiting for toxicology reports. No tissue, though, was found on the bones, so experts are not optimistic they`ll be able to specify a cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the midst of grieving for their granddaughter, Caylee, Cindy and George Anthony were handed another search warrant. Less than five minutes after Orange County sheriff`s deputies cleared the crime scene a half mile away from the Anthonys, crime scene techs were entering their home. Investigators say that search warrant was obtained with probable cause from evidence gathered in the past few days. It`s likely that evidence could have come from the crime scene or an autopsy of little Caylee`s remains.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the jailhouse bans tot mom from little Caylee`s funeral? Florida CSI back at the Anthony home, seizing clothes and shoes. Why? All this while the defense demands a second autopsy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I truly, truly love that little girl and miss her so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Marie Anthony`s last moments may always be a mystery. Investigators believe her mother, Casey, is the only one who knows what horror she might have suffered. They believe Casey is the one who researched neck-breaking and chloroform on her own computer as far back as nine months ago, three months before Caylee was killed. Orange County medical examiner Dr. Jan Garvaglia says there is no sign of trauma to Caylee`s bones. And as far as possible chloroform poisoning, the bones are clean of tissue, but even the hair that was found probably won`t help answer that question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It will be difficult to interpret levels from these specimens and thus will not be definitive in helping determine the cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Dr. G. says the totality of evidence tells her Caylee was murdered -- evidence that her mother did not report her missing for a month, evidence that Caylee`s mother partied during that month, made incriminating statements...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how, to do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied. Because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to help.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and evidence uncovered just recently that Caylee`s body was wrapped in a trash bag and dumped into the woods less than a half mile from Caylee`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one day after the Anthonys learned of their granddaughter`s death, authorities searched the family`s house yet again. Investigators took clothing and shoes belonging to both Casey and Caylee, among other items.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, CSI, Florida crime scene investigators, back at the Anthony home. Why?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, they just want -- they apparently found something, Nancy, at the crime scene during their nine-day search of that crime scene off of Suburban Drive in east Orlando, where they wanted to go back and check the house one more time. And they did about five minutes after the crime scene team left Suburban Drive and -- where the body of little Caylee Anthony was dumped.

And from what we understand they took clothing. They took shoes. They even took toys belonging to Caylee, and of course, clothing and shoes belonging to Casey Anthony. They were taken to the sheriff`s office, and they will be used as part of the investigation, Nancy.

GRACE: So you`re telling me, Mark Williams, that about five minutes after they finish the scene, they head straight to the Anthonys and execute another search warrant?

WILLIAMS: Three tenths of a mile away, Nancy. They didn`t waste any time. They found something there. They aren`t talking about that. But then they went back to the house, of course, and they even wrapped crime scene tape around the place -- around the Anthony home, as they did just a couple of weeks ago, Nancy.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the remains site. Is it true, Natisha, that even though police have now released the site, the defense still hasn`t shown up to take a look?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. The defense was contacted about 11:30 in the morning, before the scene was released. And they said they will not be coming out here. There was no reason to come out because they felt as if the scene had nothing to offer them, so...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Did I just hear you say the defense said there`s no reason to see the crime scene? Did I hear that, or is my IFB completely fritzed out?

LANCE: No, your IFB is working. They said no reason for them to come out here. They would not be responding, coming out to see the scene.

GRACE: After all this time they`ve been screaming that they can`t see the scene, the scene gets released to them, and they don`t show up.

LANCE: That`s correct. And still have not even been out here, as of today.

GRACE: OK. We are taking your calls live. Let`s quickly unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of San Francisco, Daniel Horowitz. Also with me, Meg Strickler. Also with me, Darryl Cohen. I want to go first to you, Daniel Horowitz. Not go to the crime scene? Why?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you know, if you`re invited to a party, then you show up. They were disinvited to the real examination of the evidence. Now the party`s over, and the judge says -- and the police say, Go to the scene. It`s over. It`s too late. They wanted to be there when the body was there, when the evidence was there. They got cheated, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. You know, I disagree. Darryl Cohen, the defense itself has been complaining they can`t get into the crime scene where little Caylee`s remains were found. Now the police have released the crime scene, and they`re saying they don`t need to see it. I mean, Darryl, you`ve been both a prosecutor for many, many years, and now a defense attorney for many, many years. Most people don`t get to go to the crime scene, defense attorneys, until time of the trial. This is an excellent opportunity for the defense. What`s their problem?

DARRYL COHEN, ATTORNEY FOR JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I think, Nancy, what I mentioned the other night. They said they wanted to be there. they really did not want to be there. They asked to be there. They knew the judge would not allow it. They didn`t want to go to the party because if they were not at the party, now they can complain that any problem at all, any mistake by the forensic people they can try and jump on because if they were there and they went there now, they couldn`t have that and they wouldn`t have it.

GRACE: You know what? Meg Strickler, he`s right. Everybody, what this means is, they asked to see the scene with the judge. The judge said no. Now they`ve got a chance, but now they`re not going to go so they can set it up on appeal that this is a reversible error, that they were not allowed on the scene while it was being processed. Meg Strickler, agree or disagree?

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I totally agree with Mr. Cohen. They were properly filing the right motions, and now they have great appellate issues, should this go to trial and they lose.

GRACE: Straight back out to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene. Natisha, not that I`m not sure that they would want to go, but have the Anthonys been to the scene?

LANCE: No, they have not been to the scene, Nancy. Most of their outings that they`ve had so far -- they went to church on Sunday evening, but they have not been out and about too much since then.

GRACE: Natisha, what more can you tell me about this search that was executed on the Anthony home? My sources are telling me that Mr. Anthony was visibly upset. Now, before we go with that, how do we know that? Did someone actually see him?

LANCE: Apparently, they did see him in the doorway when he came to the door when the investigators came, saying, We have another search warrant to search the house. And from what onlookers are saying is that he appeared to be visibly upset about the situation. And I guess they`re dealing with it as best as they can. And once again, I did see George`s car outside of the house today, him walking to the door, and he just looks tired, Nancy. He looks like he`s been through it and he`s trying to cope with it as best as he can.

GRACE: There you see the video that Natisha Lance is describing, George and Cindy Anthony apparently both there. You also see that still in the doorway and in the windows, the family has up the posters "Where is little Caylee? Have you seen me?"

Mark Williams, what more can you tell me about the fact that the tot mom, according to the jail, will not be at a funeral or a memorial?

WILLIAMS: Boy, you hit that right on the head. Here`s the deal with this, is that thus far, no funeral service for little Caylee has been planned. A second autopsy was conducted. The remains will be given to a funeral home within the next day or so. And it`s jail policy that the tot mom will not be released. However, if somebody makes a request, that request could be -- could be honored.

GRACE: Mark Williams is with us. Everyone, when we come back, the ex-fiance of the tot mom is with us, this after the Anthony family appeared to accuse him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, God. My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. In my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. And I want you to know that.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: I want her home now.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know, I want her home now.

CINDY ANTHONY: I want her home, so we can celebrate her 3rd birthday...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know.

CINDY ANTHONY: ... with the family again.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Every day, I can feel it, Mom. I know that I`m going to be home with you guys. I know she`s going to be home with us. Everyone just has to keep that faith because mine`s growing stronger every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Every time I see that video of the tot mom visiting with her parents and I see the stricken look on Cindy Anthony`s face, where she`s just trying to hang onto anything the tot mom says that she can believe in -- she always has that same look. She`s just listening and listening, hoping.

Straight to Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk 1150. Why is the jail now saying the tot mom will not be allowed to attend the funeral?

WILLIAMS: Well, there are obviously security concerns, and they really don`t let anybody out of jail to attend funerals. However, if there`s a request made by either her attorney, Jose Baez, and signed off by a judge, Allen Moore (ph) from the jail says they could accommodate that. But I don`t think you`ll see the tot mom at the jail.

Also, there`s a report out that the Anthonys are seeking donations for little Caylee`s funeral. That was one of the big stories tonight on one of the television stations here in town. And I ran that past a couple of people and they just could not believe that they would be asking for donations for their granddaughter`s funeral. They already have a trust fund set up already, and there`s a couple of thousand dollars in that, from what we understand, Nancy.

GRACE: What do you know about it, Natisha Lance? Are the Anthonys asking for money, for donations for the funeral?

LANCE: Actually, this is the first I`m hearing about that, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, we`ll find out. Thank you, Mark Williams.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live. And joining me right now in a primetime exclusive appearance is Jesse Grund. He is the ex-fiance of the tot mom, Casey Anthony. As you know, she at one point told him he was the biological father of little Caylee. He is being represented by veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen, who is joining us from New York. We are taking your calls live, along with Jesse and Darryl.

But first, I want you to hear this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: How about Jesse? He`s been real close. Is there anything you want me to tell Jesse?

CASEY ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that wholeheartedly and as calmly as possible.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now, and I even told Lee that. Lee is going to investigate a few people for me. I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.

CINDY ANTHONY: Has Jesse ever watched Caylee in the last month or so while he was off work?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: The last time he watched Caylee was at his parents` house, when she was a baby. So that was -- 2006.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. You know, his dad has been trying to reach out to your dad. His mom sent Lee an e-mail and said to tell us that they -- as much as the differences that they had with you, that they still know that you`re a good mom and that, you know, they want Caylee back, as well. So I want you to know that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I appreciate that. I mean, coming from his family, that means a lot. As far as Jesse as an individual, is very questionable for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Jesse Grund. Later, the Anthonys go on to mention your name to police. At this point, what are your thoughts?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: When I heard that they had mentioned my name to police, and when I heard the jailhouse tapes of what she had said, I was fairly shocked. I thought Casey and I had maintained some sort of trusting friendship over the years after our relationship had broken up and didn`t for one second think that either her or her parents would suspect me of doing any harm to Caylee whatsoever at all.

GRACE: Is that how you interpreted their comments, that they were naming you as a potential suspect to police?

GRUND: Well, I mean, their actual statement to police, Cindy does directly mention me as the person she thought was Zanny, the person who was watching Caylee. And that was after she actually had the meeting with Casey in the jailhouse.

GRACE: Why do you believe the tot mom would go to the trouble of saying, I don`t trust him?

GRUND: That`s really something you`re going to have to ask her. Nancy, to be honest with you, I don`t know that person. The person I was with and the person that sits in that jail -- I don`t know her.

GRACE: Tell me about the person you thought you were with. How is she different from the tot mom we`ve come to know?

GRUND: Casey was a totally different person when we were together. She was a loving mother. Her life revolved around how she was going to be a mom, her career as a photographer, which is what she wanted to do...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa! Career as a photographer? For all I know, she sat on the sofa for the last two years!

GRUND: I`m not saying she hasn`t sat on the sofa...

GRACE: Career as a photographer?

GRUND: Nancy, I`m not saying she hasn`t sat on the sofa. What I am saying is, is that when we were together, she worked for Kodak, as we all know, and she wanted to further that as a career as a photographer. She did have a job all the way up until April of 2006, which is confirmed.

GRACE: What did she do for Kodak?

GRUND: She was an assistant manager for one of their on-site stores that they had inside the theme park.

GRACE: Are you sure?

GRUND: Positive. That`s where I met her.

GRACE: Tell me something, Jesse. When you first learned that Caylee was missing, what did you believe?

GRUND: I didn`t believe in my heart that Casey could actually hurt her. I didn`t really think that it was anything more than Casey left her at Target, or you know, dropped her off -- I didn`t know the extent of it because I was...

GRACE: Why did you two break up?

GRUND: The first time, it was because she thought that -- you know, she broke off the engagement because she thought I loved Caylee more than I loved her, which was the furthest thing from the truth. I loved them both.

GRACE: You know what? That`s the first time I`ve ever heard that. She thought you loved Caylee more than her?

GRUND: Absolutely. Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And you know, she has similar problems with her mother, concerned that the child looked to her grandmother as her mother. So this is a recurring problem with her?

GRUND: Well, that may be a little founded since Cindy did call herself Mommy to Caylee in front of Casey before.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will always stand by their daughter. And I want to ask people to think about the fact that this is their only daughter and their only granddaughter, and their only daughter is charged with the first degree murder of their only granddaughter. That`s not -- that`s not something that you can imagine. I mean, you can think about it, but to actually be there is -- is horrendously difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, we learn that police leave the crime scene and head straight back to the Anthonys` home, executing yet another warrant, leaving with bags of evidence out of the home, including clothing and shoes belonging to not only the tot mom but little Caylee, as well. We also learn the jail has put the kibosh on Casey Anthony attending her daughter`s funeral.

Also, Mark Williams, it`s my understanding the defense is demanding a second autopsy, but yet at this juncture, that autopsy has not been completed? Is that correct?

WILLIAMS: That`s my understanding right now, Nancy. The second autopsy was an option for the defense.

GRACE: OK. And to renowned pathologist Dr. Joshua Perper. He is the chief medical examiner in Broward County and author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, these remains are completely skeletonized. Every autopsy, well, most of them that I`ve seen, weigh the internal organs, they describe the body. What do you do in an autopsy when there`s nothing but a skeleton?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it`s a misnomer because this is really an examination of skeletonized remains, not an autopsy. So the only thing which they did, or the medical examiner did, examine the bone for any kind of broken bone or fracture and any kind of natural disease, which is very unlikely to be seen in this healthy child. So a second autopsy, there is no autopsy, and wouldn`t show nothing more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I just want her back.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know you do. You have to keep thinking positive. Positive feelings, Casey.

C. ANTHONY: Oh, I know. I have been. I`ve been staying as positive as I can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The remains found in the woods last week are the remains of Caylee Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our number one priority from day one was to locate little Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cause of death will be listed as homicide by undetermined means.

C. ANTHONY: No one has once said anything for me, always -- that I love my daughter, that I want her safety. And that she and the rest of our family is my only concern.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony is already facing first degree murder and other charges in her daughter`s disappearance, charges filed before the remains were found.

Casey Anthony has pleaded not guilty. If convicted, the 22-year-old could be sentenced to life. Prosecutors said they will not seek the death penalty, although they could change their mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: After the discovery of the child`s skull completely bound in thick industrial duct tape, the state may be rethinking their decision not to seek the death penalty.

With us tonight is a very special guest and a primetime exclusive, Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance of the tot mom. The Anthonys actually suggested to police he could be a suspect, and we are taking your calls.

Out to the lines, Lisa in Oklahoma. Hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy!

GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you so much. I`ve been watching you since you were Larry King`s sidekick.

GRACE: Bless you. Bless you. And thank you so much, and thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I want to tell you that little Lucy is the spitting image of you.

GRACE: Well, don`t tell my mother that, because she thinks she looks just like her, and they saw Santa today for the first time ever, and I`m going to show you those pictures in a few moments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh good. Well, you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you need to put pictures of them after Christmas.

GRACE: I will.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My question is, why would Leonard Padilla believe that Casey accidentally killed Caylee when Casey was searching neck-breaking, let alone duct taping her head and mouth?

GRACE: To Jesse Grund, you thought initially she was not involved. And I`m guessing that you still believe it was accidental?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FIANCE: That`s tough for me to say. Again, I don`t know what this Casey is capable of. I know the evidence, of course, points in one direction. But I don`t know what she is capable of anymore. And I repeat myself.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Search your heart. What do you believe?

DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, JESSE GRUND`S LAWYER: I don`t mean to jump in, Nancy, but I think that what Jesse is trying to say is his heart is saying one thing, his head is saying something entirely different. And that makes a tremendous difficult decision for him to come out and say that.

GRUND: Trying -- trying to reconcile the two individuals together has been difficult for me. Because I remember the Casey that she was, and I try and see her for the person that she is now, that`s not the same person that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. And that -- that makes it a little bit harder when I try and put those two things together.

GRACE: Well, Jesse, you just said something actually that`s pretty profound. I once had a trial judge that would tell the jury that they must believe beyond a reasonable doubt in their head and in their heart to a moral and reasonable certainty.

So are you telling me that while you believe in your head that the evidence shows she`s guilty, in your heart, you still cannot believe it?

GRUND: It`s hard for me to accept that she would do anything to Caylee. It`s -- very difficult for me to accept that, Nancy. And I don`t mean that to be patronizing or condescending to anyone out there who believes otherwise.

But when you knew who Casey as she was, and you know what she was like around to Caylee and how much the two of us loved Caylee and doted on her, it`s -- difficult for me to actually commit to something like that.

GRACE: Jesse, what is your most vivid recollection of little Caylee?

GRUND: I`ve got a couple. You just said that your kids went to -- your children went to see Santa for the first time. Caylee`s first Christmas, they couldn`t make it to the mall for Santa pictures, so I went and bought a cheap Santa outfit and took pictures with her on my lap as Santa for her little holiday scrap book.

And, you know -- I`m -- I`m sorry. It`s rough, because every time I think about her, I realize that she`s gone. And that I`m not going to get her back. And that`s -- that`s hard. That`s hard.

GRACE: Jesse, why did the tot mom accuse you of loving little Caylee more than you loved her?

GRUND: I mean, it sounds like -- when I heard it, my response to her was -- because I got a paternity test done to prove that I was not Caylee`s biological father. And if I didn`t love Casey, wouldn`t that have been the perfect time for me to just go at that point?

But she didn`t want to hear that. She didn`t care at that point. And she wanted me to go from being Caylee`s father to just another guy in Caylee`s life.

GRACE: Because it seems to me, Jesse, that the kind of man I would want is somebody that does love the twins more than me, because they are now the most important thing on earth to me. So why did that -- why did Caylee end up being a reason that you guys broke -- I just don`t understand why that would be a break-up.

GRUND: You know, I think that may have been a front for something else. I mean, her behavior completely changed at the end of the relationship. She went from being a homebody who enjoyed watching movies and hanging out as a family and going out to dinner to somebody who blew off my brother`s graduation because she had a party the night before, and she was too hungover to show up.

So there was some definitive changes in her behavior. And I still have no explanation. I still can`t reconcile who she was and then who she became. It`s very difficult for me.

GRACE: Did you love little Caylee like she was your own child?

GRUND: A piece of paper couldn`t tell me not to love her like she was my daughter.

GRACE: Back to the lines, Amanda in Kentucky. Hi, Amanda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was wondering, is it true that Casey was spotted coming out of the woods with a shovel, and was it the same area of the woods that the body was found? And also, has the shovel been taken for evaluation as evidence?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first put up the bond for the tot mom and then went on to search exhaustively for little Caylee -- Leonard, I don`t think the truth of that sighting has ever been proven or disproven, but it`s not the same place. Wasn`t that sighting out by the Orlando International Airport?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes. That`s correct. It`s a totally different area. It doesn`t -- it`s not even close to where they found the skeletal remains.

But let me, let me throw something in here that I think is important that I`ve been thinking about for about a week. At one time, and I think if you go back, you`ll find the.

GRACE: You`ve been thinking about it for a week, why couldn`t you tell me Friday night?

PADILLA: Because I didn`t know exactly what it meant until today when I discussed it with Rob.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: What happened is, George is saying that he`s got people being followed that he knows.

GRACE: I remember that.

PADILLA: . who`s got Caylee.

GRACE: And they`re being surveilled.

PADILLA: They`re being surveilled. And then we got to talking about Dominic, his private detective, and another fellow by the name of Jim Hoover. And we thought, well, why hasn`t, you know, somebody like the FBI, for instance, Nick Savage, gone and asked George if these are the two private detectives that were following the suspects.

I think it`s very important.

GRACE: Because?

PADILLA: If they were following somebody, they`re going to say, this is who it was. I don`t think they were following anybody.

GRACE: So you`re saying if there was somebody in mind by the Anthonys, that could be a potential killer, a suspect, is that what you`re saying?

PADILLA: Yes, sure. But.

GRACE: OK, got it.

PADILLA: Listen, let me tell you why I know it`s not true. The very first night we got there, we met with the Anthonys, Lee, Cindy and George. And 100 percent of the conversation was directed at convincing us that Jesse had the child or had done something to the child.

We met the very next morning with Jose Baez, and he drag out a card that proved how innocent statements about love for a child and a woman can be contorted into making us believe, and they really, really worked on it, that Jesse had something to do with it, Jesse had the child, Jesse had harmed the child.

Two different instances within 24 hours.

GRACE: With us, Leonard Padilla, who actually searched exhaustively for little Caylee. And as we go to break, we are taking your calls live.

But now at your request, new photos of the twins. They`ll be online tonight. Here they are with Santa. They asked for lots of bottles to learn to walk, to kiss my sister, brother, every day, to see my grandparents a lot. They would like hair, teeth, and love.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: During the whole time when I was sitting there talking to Jesse that Saturday after all of this happened, when he was in my home, he -- was sure of all of his -- you know, he was sure about -- now, you haven`t talked to Caylee or Casey during this whole time frame? Absolutely not. Are you absolutely sure? Absolutely not.

So that was a big red flag when he changed his story from going to the media that he didn`t see Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the 24th.

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, or even that he had heard Caylee`s voice because he maintained the whole time that the babysitter had her from what Casey said, and that was not he believed all that so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We learned police leave the crime scene, and head straight to the Anthony home, leaving with bags of evidence. This just recently -- this is just about the third search they have done on the Anthony home.

George Anthony appearing visibly upset with police, came with a warrant to look at the home.

We are taking your calls live.

We also learn the jail has announced the tot mom will be forbidden from attending the funeral.

Out to the lines. Amanda in Kentucky. Hi, Amanda. I think I`ve got Amanda in Kentucky?

Jennifer in Maine, hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question for Leonard, if I could.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wondering the date of the incident in which Casey would not let her father near the trunk in the garage, what the date of that incident was. And on that day, was the area that the body was found in, was it flooded at that point?

GRACE: Interesting. To Leonard Padilla, in a nutshell -- when -- when did George Anthony and the tot mom have an altercation when she wouldn`t let him look in the trunk? And Hurricane Faye didn`t come until the end of August.

PADILLA: That particular incident was on the 24th, in the afternoon of the 24th.

GRACE: The 24th of July?

PADILLA: June. June, June.

GRACE: June 24th.

PADILLA: 24th.

GRACE: OK. Thank you.

Back out to the lines, Amber in Michigan. Hi, Amber.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Beautiful pictures.

I have a question regarding the police officer or officers that Casey had dated.

GRACE: That was a nice way to put it. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Were they ever thoroughly questioned during this investigation? Had anyone ever theorized that possibly they assisted her, her being Casey and ways of possibly how to cover up the murder?

GRACE: Interesting. Out to Mark Williams with WNDB, it`s my recollection that both the officers said the tot mom had dated were questioned.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, they were questioned. As a matter of fact, one of them decided just to resign. He worked for the Orange County Sheriff`s Office for a very short time.

And I don`t think they assisted in -- any sort of a cover-up whatsoever. The one, the rookie, basically, I don`t think had the -- had the wherewithal to cover up any sort of a murder.

GRACE: Out to John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies."

John Lucich, what do you make of the jail forbidding the tot mom to go to the funeral?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": I think it`s a standard procedure. I think any time you have someone who is that much of a threat, or could be harmed, puts the sheriff`s office in a precarious situation.

I think for security purposes right there, to cover them, they need to do that, and I think it`s the right thing to do.

GRACE: And John Lucich, why did the cops yet again go back to the Anthony home after closing down the crime scene?

LUCICH: It`s very clear that what they found at the crime scene was very evidentiary. And what they`re looking for, especially when they took shoes, maybe they`re looking for a shoe print that was found on the girl`s clothing or embedded on to the duct tape. Maybe they`re looking for fibers when they took the clothes that they found with the body.

This -- a host of things but they -- they were very clear when they went. They went back very quickly.

GRACE: Right.

John, I find it very difficult to believe, unless the perp was wearing gloves. I just have to stop every time I see this video of little Caylee. That there are no fingerprints, hair, fiber, nothing on that duct tape?

Lucich?

LUCICH: Oh, I`m sorry. I thought you were talking to somebody else. No, it`s very -- remember, this body was under water for so many times, and remember, it was Tim Miller who said that he had to call off the search, because he actually lost a four wheeler in that area.

So water and the elements can do so much to erase DNA and lots of other types of evidence.

GRACE: Do we have Dr. Perper yet? OK.

Dr. Perper, do you believe that even being submerged in water that duct tape, thick industrial duct tape, would still have evidentiary clues, such as fingerprints? Or would water get rid of any potential fingerprints?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, this is not mathematical. It could have -- the tape, which is sticky, could have still some fingerprints stick to it. But certainly water would disturb the initial condition of the tape. So it`s a question of what the findings are. It`s possible, but not necessarily so.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, the family has remained silent, essentially, since the remains were identified as Caylee`s. They also have not been to the jail at all to visit the tot mom. Thoughts?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, when they`re probably shuttling between feeling numb and continuing their ongoing denial. But these people have got to be devastated.

It`s possible that Casey didn`t want them there, that she didn`t want to be burdened with their emotions, with their grief, although they rationalize it by saying, no, it`s going to be public record, we can`t say anything to her.

GRACE: Back to Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance of the tot mom Casey Anthony. Jesse, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any reason that you have outside intuition to believe that Jesse may or may not be involved in Caylee`s disappearance?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I believe that Jesse -- again, this is just my feelings, I believe that Jesse is very jealous of the relationships that Casey has had after they were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: When you hear this, do you bear anger toward the Anthonys, or is your heart softened to them after their loss?

GRUND: Look, I believe that the Anthonys are grieving grandparents, so our differences aside, I want to give them time to grieve, you know.

GRACE: Right.

GRUND: Things can be addressed at another time. But as of right now, they are grieving grandparents. Again, a lot of what they have said is not congruent with what I would consider the truth about my feelings, and about who I am as an individual. However, they are going through something right now that I would not wish on my worst enemy.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. We are taking your calls live.

Darryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer who is representing Mr. Grund, Meg Strickler out of Atlanta, Daniel Horowitz out of San Francisco.

Daniel, if the defense wants to blame somebody else they better stick with an imaginary figure, like Zanny the nanny, not somebody live that can walk into the courtroom and say, that is BS, like Jesse Grund.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s a fact.

I mean, Jesse, you are a remarkable young man. And that family and Caylee were so fortunate to have you in their lives. And the defense better keep far away from you. They`d better make you their hero if they want to have any credibility with the jury.

GRACE: And to Meg Strickler, apparently, the defense is still sticking with the nanny did it.

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, they are. And they`re just going to have to try and come up with some reasonable doubt here. That`s all they needed to do, some sort of reasonable doubt. They`re going to be grasping at whatever they can here.

GRACE: And to Darryl Cohen, do you recall they`ll stick with that at trial?

COHEN: I hope they`re not that foolish. It should be the unknown nanny.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene where little Caylee`s remains were discovered.

Natisha, what are police doing to kind of protect the scene at this point, even though it`s been closed? It`s over. The police search is over.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, this is actually private property, Nancy. And there are some "no trespassing" signs that have been put up. Bu But there is at least one deputy who`s out here tonight, kind of out here for our protection, not necessarily because of anything that they think is going to happen to the scene.

GRACE: And finally, back to Jesse Grund who was once told he was the biological father of little Caylee. Will you be attending the funeral?

GRUND: Well, that`s dependent on if the Anthonys invite me. Of course, I`m going to want to be there for Caylee`s memorial. But one way or another, for those of us that don`t get invited, if Anthonys don`t invite me and my family, those that they have associated with, we`re going to have our.

GRACE: Jesse, how has this affected your life?

GRUND: You know I`m never going to be able to replace Caylee. I`m never going to be able to replace that portion of my heart that I had that I gave to her. But this case is -- all of us were involved, it has followed us around and it will continue like a cloud.

There is a -- those accusations that they have.

GRACE: Right.

GRUND: . thrown against me have been proved to be incorrect and.

GRACE: Jesse.

GRUND: . it`s always going to be there.

GRACE: . you`ve remained strong throughout, thank you for being with us.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Lieutenant Colonel Max Naliai, 42, Pagopago, American Samoa, killed Iraq. On a second tour. Worked with Iraq police and army. Over 20 years of service. Awarded two Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, five service medals.

An Oregon state grad. Dedicated to family. Loved e-mailing jokes. Leaves behind mom, Kalala, four sisters, two brothers, widow Evelyn, four children.

Max Naliai, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us. And tonight, thank you to Monica and Sissy in Campbell for these darling stockings for Lucy and John David. And special goodnight the twins to Germany and New Jersey friends of the show, Sebastian and Megan.

And from precious future crime fighters in Georgia, Ann, Mary, Michael, Abby and Taylor.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night and Happy Hanukkah.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/22/ng.01.html

NANCY GRACE

Lee Anthony`s Attorney Says He Might Be Charged

Aired December 29, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the case of missing 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. After months and months of searching throughout the Orlando area, a local meter reader calls authorities after finding a bag containing skeletal remains in a heavily- wooded area just yards from the home of Caylee`s grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, the remains later identified as those of little Caylee, the medical examiner revealing the manner of death to be homicide, but the cause of death remains a mystery.
Headlines tonight. Will Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee, face criminal charges? His attorney is saying the state may seek to charge Caylee`s uncle with obstruction of justice or aiding and abetting. Meanwhile, we anxiously await results from additional forensic testing done on Caylee`s remains, as well as a report from CSI experts who thoroughly searched the remains site for more evidence.

And also tonight, investigators are said to be focusing in on computer searches shortly before Caylee went missing. At the same time that someone in the Anthony home was searching neck-breaking, how to make chloroform, they also were searching for a television episode centered around a child`s kidnapping. Who was the kidnapper in that show, you ask? Why, the nanny, of course.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: We love you. And you know, please think of anything that we can help find Caylee because the sooner we can help find her, it`s going to be, you know, open and shut to get you out of there, OK, darling?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Absolutely. I know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony, could reportedly be facing criminal charges, including obstruction of justice or aiding and abetting. According to an attorney claiming to be an adviser to Lee Anthony, the state attorney`s office may hand down charges against Caylee`s uncle, even if he never intended to commit a crime.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: (DELETED) Baez. I don`t give a (DELETED) (INAUDIBLE) (DELETED) anything else. Our focus is on Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, according to reports, someone at the Anthony home was searching for a specific episode of a television program where a child is kidnapped by the nanny.

LEE ANTHONY: My mother immediately goes, Who took her? Who took her? And then Casey goes, The nanny did. She was kidnapped, Mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," in for Nancy Grace tonight. Stunning developments. Is Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony, in legal trouble? The attorney advising him says Lee could face charges of obstruction of justice. And tonight, investigators reportedly focus in on computer searches inside the Anthony home. Do searches about a television show give new insight into Casey Anthony`s Zenaida Gonzalez story?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: More like a hand. You`re the middle finger, which is funny, because you are the big guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An attorney claiming to be an adviser to tot mom Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony, says Caylee`s uncle could face criminal charges. The adviser says that even if Lee Anthony were not aware that he was doing something illegal, the state could still seek obstruction of justice or aiding and abetting charges against him.

LEE ANTHONY: I know you`re going to meet with, you know, the investigators and everything. You know, is there anything specifically, the details that you want to clarify to me now, so when I`m following up on my own leads and my own information, putting this stuff together, you know, that I can start working on it now?

CASEY ANTHONY: At the moment, there`s nothing to consider (ph), or nothing that, you know, should probably be said here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, computer records reportedly show a search for the 100th episode of a television show where a nanny is suspected of kidnapping a child.

LEE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) to be looking for the nanny`s place. Would it be advantageous of me to look in areas that are familiar to another friend that you may have?

CASEY ANTHONY: That would be pretty much on the money.

LEE ANTHONY: We`re going to find Caylee, and that`s it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, news director for WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Jean, the latest, of course, is could Lee Anthony be charged with obstruction of justice? Well, that may not happen anytime soon. The investigators right now are wrapping up all their loose ends into the Casey Anthony case right now, involving little Caylee Anthony. The state attorney`s office has not been asked to, of course, press charges against him as of yet.

But his attorney, Tom Luka, here in Orlando says Lee has been investigating. But if you have followed this show since at least July 24, that has not been the case. Lee Anthony told his parents at one time, Do not -- do not take any polygraph tests that have been administered or they want to administer to you. And secondly, you know, the lawyer says, Well, he gave up his DNA. That`s a -- a bunch of bull because they needed a search warrant for him to get his DNA. That`s the only way he ever cooperated was search warrants and through intimidation.

CASAREZ: So these would be very, very serious charges. And this is coming tonight from the attorney advising Lee Anthony.

Let`s go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, who is the host of "Issues With Jane Velez-Mitchell." Jane, you just spoke with attorney Thomas Luka. What really struck you as you spoke with him?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Well, he wouldn`t tell us why his client might be facing these obstruction of justice issues or the aiding and abetting. And I asked him, I said, Could it be that Casey asked the brother to do something that he thought was an innocent request and later turned out to be incriminating? He said, No, you`re absolutely wrong. And I said, Well, did he throw something out of the house that he thought was something that he could just innocently dispose of that later turned out to possibly be important information or evidence? He said, Absolutely no.

So he wouldn`t say why. But he says reading the tea leaves, he`s getting the idea that authorities are gearing up to charge his client. And what`s so bizarre about is, usually, a lawyer doesn`t want to plant that idea in the authorities` heads and give them any ideas about charging your client. So for it to come from the attorney is really strange.

CASAREZ: It is strange. Well, let`s listen to attorney Thomas Luka in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS LUKA, ATTORNEY FOR LEE ANTHONY: No charges are pending as of yet. What we are concerned with, however, is that here in Florida, the laws regarding tampering with evidence and obstruction of justice are extraordinarily broad, as opposed to other states. And because of that, there is some concern that some activities that -- that Lee might have been involved with during the investigation might have -- be seen by law enforcement to be misleading or to be in some way hindering the investigation. And that`s what we`re trying to make clear, that throughout this investigation, he has been cooperating fully.

Mr. Anthony is not -- did not throw anything out. In fact, he has talked to Casey several times in the jail at law enforcement`s request in the search for his niece. He has been fully cooperating with police, including giving a DNA sample.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And let us go out to the attorneys right now. We can`t wait any longer. Susan Moss, family law attorney, child advocate, prosecutor Holly Hughes, defense attorney Doug Burns and George Prothro, also a defense attorney.

First to Doug Burns. Tell me why it would be advantageous for an attorney who is advising Lee Anthony right now to come out on national television, saying his client is truly being investigated by the Orange County Sheriff`s Department?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can`t, Jean, and that`s the problem. I find it highly unusual. I`ve been practicing criminal law 23 years. I`m not going to malign the gentleman, but by the same token, I find it highly unusual that an attorney would publicly say to the media, you know, By the way, they`re, you know, likely to be charging my client with a crime. I don`t see any merit to that.

CASAREZ: To prosecutor Holly Hughes. These would be very, very serious charges because I`ve been researching the Florida law, and initially, the attorney said aiding and abetting. I cannot find a criminal statute of aiding and abetting under Florida law. I do find accessory under the fact, which can be a first degree or a second degree felony. I also find, obviously, obstruction of justice. Now he`s saying tampering with evidence. What do you make of it?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: What I make of it is he knows a heck of a lot more than he`s telling us. And obviously, because of attorney/client privilege, he has to keep so much of it secret. But he knows that Lee is in this up to his neck, Jean, because otherwise, he`s not out there trying to taint the jury pool and, Oh, feel sorry for this family, and, They`re going after George and Cindy, and now they might be going after Lee.

And I think what he`s trying to do is put it out there that the prosecutor is a big bad wolf and they`re going after this grieving family, so that if and when Lee gets charged, they can say, Oh, you know, they`re over the top. Not only are they going after Casey, they`re going after everybody else.

But when he starts throwing around terms like "tampering with evidence," "aiding and abetting," I`m also thinking of party to a crime, depending on what he did, Jean. You know, he could be charged as, you know, not only tampering, but also as a party to whatever crime Casey committed, if he was part and parcel. You know, they say in for a penny, in for a pound, Jean.

CASAREZ: Well, Holly, it`s interesting you say that because if you look at the indictment and if you look under count two, which is aggravated child abuse, the prosecutor leaves it open for somebody else to be involved in this case. It is right there in black and white. It is interesting.

To George Prothro, defense attorney. What I want to ask you is, after the remains were found on December 11, George and Cindy Anthony were asked to give their fingerprints. They voluntarily gave it to law enforcement. But what we understand is that Lee Anthony waited until he was face to face with a subpoena before he did that and gave his fingerprints. Did he know something at that point?

GEORGE PROTHRO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think, you know, he knew anything at that point. I think it`s very hard to speculate at this point on the evidence that we have with the information that we have. But what I do think he may have been trying to do is to make sure that he was protecting his rights by waiting until he was required by subpoena to provide that information. He has protected his rights if charges are later brought against him, if he is later added to the indictment. And if he has to go to trial, then that produces some issues at trial that may protect any evidence or protect his rights against any evidence that may have been brought in based on the evidence collected with that subpoena.

CASAREZ: But to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter -- he helped search for Caylee from day one, practically. That`s really what I`m driving at because if George and Cindy Anthony voluntarily gave their fingerprints after the remains were found, but Lee Anthony -- and he has every constitutional right to not do it voluntarily, but doesn`t that mean that he may have information that an investigation was ongoing in regard to him at that point?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Lee not giving up his fingerprints voluntarily is a red herring. His situation is there`s a daisy chain that extends from Casey all the way to the meter reader, Kronk. They`re trying to fill in the spaces as to who carried the message where the body was so that the meter reader could find it after the fourth try.

Lee probably is the major suspect in the daisy chain because he`s the one that had contact with Casey, and semi-coded messages were possibly passed from her to him. He, in turn, dealt with Hoover and the other private investigator, Dominic, eventually ending up with the information in Kronk`s lap.

CASAREZ: But Leonard, what are your facts to back that up right there, your theory?

PADILLA: Hoover showed me a video that he took of Dominic filming the area for about a minute-and-a-half exactly where the body was found. On the -- on the date, it says November 15.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: That`s when she opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother, and you know, maybe she`s right. Maybe I am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee says partly because of that atrocious smell in the car, their mother angrily confronted Casey about her claim that the nanny took Caylee, telling Casey, quote, "We could have found her a month ago. Why did you wait? What have you done?"

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re more afraid of your mom`s reaction than you are if you ever see your daughter again?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m absolutely petrified, absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LUKA: They have not yet issued him a subpoena for his trial testimony. That subpoena would give him immunity to anything he would say in a court of law. They have not -- the state attorney`s office has not issued a subpoena for him yet, and that is what troubles me, at least, as far as whether there might be charges on the horizon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: But Lee Anthony is on the prosecution`s witness list, as is George and Cindy Anthony.

Welcome back. I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," sitting in for Nancy Grace. Stunning news today out of the mouth of the attorney that is advising Lee Anthony, the brother of Casey Anthony, saying that it is very, very possible that Lee Anthony could be charged with a number of felony charges in this case. He is currently, according to Thomas Luka, being investigated by the Orange County Sheriff`s Department.

Let`s go out to Kathy in New York. Good evening, Kathy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Jean. How are you?

CASAREZ: Fine, thanks. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have a question for Leonard Padilla. When he first bonded Casey out, he was convinced of her innocence. What changed his mind when he was around the family that now he doesn`t believe that?

CASAREZ: Good question. Leonard?

PADILLA: The lab results from the Tennessee body farm and also the FBI labs. I`ve said it a thousand times. I`m old-fashioned. I believe in the FBI lab, and definitely know they -- they know what they`re doing. I mean, they`re 100 percent. Very seldom are they off. They`ve had a couple of incidents in the past, but not this time.

CASAREZ: Now, those results, Leonard, did not come in until this fall, I believe, late summer, early fall. How did you reconcile all of the mistruths, the lies, that were evident through the entire months of the summer?

PADILLA: Well, the thing about it is that we had bailed her out, and a week later is when the results came out, in mid-August. By that time, if you`ll look at the timeline, Kronk had made three attempts on the 11th, 12th and 13th Of august to actually find the remains. Somebody was tipping him to the area but not exactly to where that bag was.

CASAREZ: Now, why do you believe somebody was tipping a meter reader, who had that vicinity to read meters in this near the Casey Anthony home -- why do you believe he was tipped off?

PADILLA: On two occasions, I believe the second time and fourth time, when he actually found the body, said he had to relieve himself -- if you`ll notice in the first, second or third tape, he starts to say that that`s where he was going, to relieve himself. Two instances, he mentions, Well, there was a dead snake back there, something to that effect. There`s no way you`re going to stop on that road to -- to go relieve yourself down that slope and into those woods when you`ve got a friend that works with you right around the corner. You can go and use the bathroom in his home.

CASAREZ: Well, to Drew Petrimoulx, reporter from WDBO radio, what`s the general consensus, the opinion of the meter reader? Because it`s my thought that if there is a meter reader and his area is near the Casey Anthony home and everybody is looking for Caylee, I would sort of have an unofficial duty, a feeling inside of me that I needed to look out. Everyone was trying to find Caylee Anthony. Why shouldn`t the meter reader, too?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, I mean, coming from the sheriff`s office, they have basically said that he has shown no signs of being guilty, they don`t suspect him as being involved in the disappearance and eventual finding of the murdered body.

But you know, it is a strange story. He went out there three times and back in August, and he obviously thought he saw something out there. He called police out there. They weren`t able to find it. He comes back five months later and finds the body in the same spot. It`s a really close area to the Anthony house. So while there`s been no direct linkage between him and the death of Caylee, it`s just a strange story. It`s hard for people to swallow. But there`s no direct connection as of yet.

CASAREZ: But if he`s a meter reader and he`s walking around doing his duties, maybe he`s going to be looking for whatever he may find. And we don`t know if what he saw in August is the same thing that he saw December 11.

Let`s go out to Kim in Michigan. Good evening, Kim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean. There were reports about Casey making a phone call to J.C. Penney`s and possibly purchasing two cross necklaces. Has that been verified? And then -- because there was video on your show where, when she was rearrested, she was wearing a cross necklace. Has that second one ever been found, or could it be with the remains, do you think?

CASAREZ: Well, let`s ask Mark Williams, news director WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark?

WILLIAMS: Well, that`s news to me. The only cross that I know of is the one that Leonard Padilla found on the little bank -- or the banks of the Econ River, when he had divers in the water looking for little Caylee. And that was allegedly a home-made cross.

But that cross could have also come from -- from a murder case that happened just a couple of weeks before that, when Michelle Ganguzza (ph) went missing. She was a jogger, and they eventually found her body. And again, that`s the first time I`ve heard the possible purchase of some crosses at J.C. Penney.

CASAREZ: Well, you know what? I think Kim is saying that it`s so important -- many times in circumstantial cases, the devil is in the details. It can be extremely important.

Let`s go to a detail right now involving a computer search that was done around the time of March of this year when other computer searches were how to make chloroform, neck-breaking, were made all at the same time. Drew Petrimoulx, reporter from WDBO radio, tell us about that computer search for a TV show?

PETRIMOULX: Right. Well, as you said, there were searches for chloroform and household weapons and neck-breaking. Well, we also have learned now that there was also a search for "One Tree Hill" 100th episode. And in that episode, if you look through what transpires, the baby-sitter actually kidnaps a kid from a wedding and is holding him in a hotel room. He is eventually recovered.

But now there`s speculation, is that where Casey came up with the whole Zenaida Gonzalez story? You remember she claims that her baby-sitter took Caylee and basically never returned her. So now there`s speculation, is that where she came up with the idea, from an episode on a TV show?

CASAREZ: All right. Let`s go to John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies." You are a forensic investigator specializing in computer searches. How important will this search be? And is the timing of it in March around those other searches critically important for the prosecution?

JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATION, "CYBER LIES" AUTHOR: Absolutely, it is, because it`s going to go to show premeditation. But the one step they have to make in order to be able to use this really conclusively is to tie her to it. And based on what I see with the computer searches done so far, they haven`t been able to do that.

They have to take those dates and times and actually check the computer to see if there`s other dates and times that are around the same that says that she and only she could have been on the computer at the date and time that these searches were done.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said the sister told you that, Because I`m a spiteful (DELETED)

LEE ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did she yell that so Mom could hear it, or she just whispered that to you, or what was the context of...

CASEY ANTHONY: She didn`t whisper it. She didn`t -- she didn`t also say it -- necessarily make it a point to say it as loud so my mom can hear it. When I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," sitting in for Nancy Grace. Well, in addition to the attorney who is advising Lee Anthony publicly saying that his client, Lee Anthony, brother of Casey Anthony, is under investigation by the Orange County Sheriff`s Department, there is also brand-new information from a private investigator by the name of Dominic Kerry (SIC).

Now, he used to work for the defense, Jose Baez. He is now working for George and Cindy Anthony. And he says that he took a video of the area where the remains were found months ago, but they looked very different. Let`s go back out to Mark Williams, news director for WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s that all about?

WILLIAMS: Well, what it`s all about is, all of a sudden, this tape has allegedly surfaced which -- from mid-November which shows Mr. Casey shooting videotape or videotape shot by him in the area where they found the body a little less than a month later.

Orange County sheriff`s office investigators want to talk to Mr. Casey. However, one of the deals is, is the fact that he used to work for Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez. Now, Mr. Baez has gone to court asking for a special master to be assigned to the case, saying that special master should be in -- should be present when the cops talk to the private investigator because Mr. Baez doesn`t want any privileged information to be released. Basically, he thinks the cops are leaning heavily on Mr. Casey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking me in the eyes. You`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie, every single thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey began to break down and cry. And she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days. Her hands are in her face, and she is crying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re tired of the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey seems to be asking you here, if it you want her to bring the little snot in. I`m assuming the little snot is -- who?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you believe that when she is referring to the little snot head here, she is talking about her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

THOMAS LUKA, ATTORNEY FOR LEE ANTHONY: There is a great deal of rumor and speculation and innuendo surrounding this entire case. I think that Mr. Anthony is simply being caught up in the periphery of this. He was running a parallel investigation with -- to the police, looking for his niece. Any money that was spent was spent appropriately. There was no misuse of funds. There was no appropriation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: That is a separate issue, I believe, from obstructing justice. The information here is coming in fast and furious. I`m Jean Casarez of "IN SESSION," sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. Jim Hoover, private investigator, is who allegedly took the video of the very same area where the remains were found. But Dominic Casey was the center of a defense motion filed just today by Jose Baez, asking for a special master to oversee any questioning of this private investigator.

Let`s go to a caller. Roz in Colorado, thanks for waiting. Hi, Roz.

CALLER: Hi, Jean. Thank you for taking my call. What I`m wondering is, if the defense team uses Zenaida Gonzalez`s name as part of their defense, even though the only known Zenaida Gonzalez has been cleared of any wrong-doing, I`m wondering if Zenaida can sue the defense team for defamation of character, if they continue to use her name?

CASAREZ: Well, let me tell you, the Zenaida Gonzalez that was the focus initially of this investigation, she has filed a civil suit against Casey Anthony. So that has already been done, which is very interesting, because we don`t think there is a lot of money there. But based in principle, this young woman believes her name has been ruined.

I want to go to a very, very special guest right now. Dr. Joshua Perper, he is the chief medical examiner of Broward County. He is the author of the book, "When to Call The Doctor." He is nationally renowned. He is actually the forensic pathologist that determined the cause of death of Anna Nicole Smith in Florida. It`s an honor to have you with us tonight. Thank you so much.

I want to ask you a question, because I think what is so important in this case, and the results are yet to be known, is forensically what will be found on any duct tape that was around the head, around the mouth, any area of the torso. Here`s what I want to ask you: if the prosecution would bring the death penalty to this case, I think it would be important to find out if the duct tape was put on while Casey Anthony was alive. And I want to ask you, could any hair or any tissue that got stuck on the sticky side of that tape while Casey Anthony was alive, can that be determined forensically?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: If there is such evidence, it will be determined. However, there is no question in my mind, and I think that the reason why the medical examiner determined the case to be a homicide, that this tape was placed when the child was alive until the child died. Because there`s no reason in the world why this tape would have been wrapped around the head.

CASAREZ: Right. And legally speaking, homicide is death at the hands of another. Dr. Perper, when you look at duct tape, how good of a conductor is it of finger prints? Because if there was an accomplice, if there was someone else that was involved, would that be the area where forensically you could determine the acts of another?

PERPER: This would be a good conductor, if it`s dry. But remember that this tape was soaked in it water for a long period of time, that whatever finger prints were there disappeared.

CASAREZ: What about the humidity of Florida`s sun? Does that also dissipate the levels of DNA?

PERPER: The DNA level is a different story. But, yes, there can be defraction by heat. But in this particular case, they proved that the DNA of the child indeed identified her as Caylee. And there was no other DNA. The hair, which was found in the trunk of the car, could have equally been coming from the mother or from the -- this unfortunate child.

CASAREZ: You know, another thing that I wanted to ask you, because prosecutors need to link the crime scene where the skeletal remains were found with Casey. That is critical for the prosecution`s case. I was reading in the forensic report from the FBI that the air testing in the truck showed air samples of decomposition associated with anaerobic decomposition. Can you put that in plain English?

PERPER: Yes, well anaerobic decomposition means the decomposition in the absence of air, in the absence of oxygen. The explanation might be that inside the plastic bag there was not much air. Besides that, many of the decomposition processes themselves are anaerobic, and there is no use of oxygen. But because of this anaerobic lack of oxygen, this is consistent with the skeleton being in the bag, as it was found.

CASAREZ: So there is a link, potentially, between the car trunk and the air samples of decomposition, and the crime scene. Let`s go out to Mary in New York. Good evening, Mary.

CALLER: Good evening.

CASAREZ: Your question?

CALLER: When will we be hearing from her parents or anybody that will be backing her up, friends, these wonderful friends that she had parties with?

CASAREZ: Well, that`s a good question. You know, I think the next thing in line is obviously a funeral service for Caylee, for her to be remembered. That has not happened yet. Let`s go out to Drew Pethimoulx, reporter, WDBO radio. What is the status of a memorial service for Caylee Anthony?

DREW PETHIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: We understand a second autopsy has to be completed before they`ll have that memorial service. As far as what the caller was asking, when are we going to hear from people, you know, we don`t know who is going be at the private, who is going to be at the public. Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance, didn`t know whether he was going to be invited to the private service. So, we don`t know when we`re going to hear from these people.

What we do know is we`ll be hearing form them in court. They`re all on the prosecution`s witness list. So when the trial will start, we don`t know yet. But we know that they`ll be called to testify when that trial does start.

CASAREZ: Do we have any idea when that second autopsy is going to be performed?

PETHIMOULX: That hasn`t been announced. I haven`t heard an exact date on that. We know that the body is in the possession of funeral home that the family has chosen. So when they decide to hold this second autopsy, I have not heard yet.

CASAREZ: To Dr. Joshua Perper in regard to a second autopsy performed by defense, forensic investigators, is it normally done in the medical examiner`s office, or do you require it to be done somewhere else?

PERPER: No, it`s up to the wishes of the family. Once the body is released, it`s up to the family to decide where they want the examination to be done. By the way, that`s not an autopsy. It`s just an examination, unfortunately, of skeletal remains. And the first examination revealed no evidence of trauma. So the defense cannot do anything to improve, because it`s in the favor of the defense that there were no fractures or broken bones.

CASAREZ: Could that make a decision then to not do identification or looking at the body by the defense experts?

PERPER: They could do that, but they`re not going to do that because they have to show that they did every effort to try to uncover what they -- what they say that the actual suspect. But it`s not going to help them in any way.

CASAREZ: Very interesting. Regina in New York. Thanks for calling tonight. Hi, Regina.

CALLER: Hi, Jean. My question was for Dr. Perper, is that there was an e-mail that she had had, a friend talking about duct tape that she had took. Is it possible she put that duct tape on, because the poisoning didn`t work, and she suffocated her? And as far as the trunk goes, are you going to tell me now that he has got keys to her car and her home to be a suspect?

CASAREZ: You`re talking about the meter reader?

CALLER: Yes.

CASAREZ: That he has keys to the trunk?

CALLER: No, that they`re trying to make him look like he could be suspicious now. But he didn`t have keys to her car or to her home or anything else.

CASAREZ: Very good point. Dr. Perper, in your vast array of experience, with duct tape, what can it show? What -- how can it help in the investigation?

PERPER: Well, the tape which was placed on the mouth of the child, on the skull, was either a result of trying to prevent the child from crying, or a result of the fact that they tried to asphyxiate the child. But in either case, it`s homicide, murder by negligence or specifically.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was at my mom`s house within five minutes. When I arrived, go through the garage door like I typically do. There was -- the only vehicle in there was the vehicle driven by my sister, the white Pontiac. The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to, I assume, ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time. And I went inside the house to see if anybody was there, nobody was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell filled up the garage?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it was -- it hits you like a wave. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "IN SESSION," sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. Out of the blue, the attorney advising Lee Anthony is saying that his client may be charged with some criminal counts here under the Florida statutes of obstruction of justice, tampering with evidence, possibly aiding abetting, accessory after the fact, according to my legal research. I want to go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, who is the host of "ISSUES" with Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, we appreciate having you on so much.

We have so many people that day after day seem to be coming out of the woodwork, a private investigator that took video of the exact area, new attorneys. What do you make of it all?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Well, this case, every second it seems like it there is a dramatic twist and turn. And this is going to be really extraordinary, Jean, if it turns out that they can show this videotape of the very area where remains from found and say, hey, look, a month before the remains were found, we videotaped this area, and guess what, no bag. And that would certainly dove tail with the fact that this meter reader called three times in August, and said, check this out. And authorities did go down on at least one occasion, possibly more, and didn`t find anything.

Now, we have heard all sorts of things that, oh, they were scared away by a rattlesnake. But when you consider and you listen to the tapes of Roy Kronk (ph) saying, hey, go down and check out this area; he is very insistent. These are extensive conversations he has with 911. I think this is an opening for the defense. And they`re going to take the ball and run with it. But who knows when this videotape was actually taken.

CASAREZ: You`re exactly right. I think it is a mark for the defense. But also, when you think of a forested area, everything looks alike. And when you really look at that videotape, if we ever are see it, how do we know if it`s the exact area? There`s going to have to be some precise landmarks, or it`s a videotape that both sides during trial are going to be able to use.

MITCHELL: Absolutely. You could take a video of a bunch of leaves in Central Park and say, hey, this is the area. But I think there are trees there, and the trees have very distinctive roots. And if they can actually match that video up and somehow prove that it was taken in November, that`s going to be a huge blow, because the implication is the body was moved.

CASAREZ: True. But I remember what the head of Texas Equi-Search, Mr. Miller said, that he saw the area where the skeletal remains were found. Not only was there a hollow in the Earth, but all of the leaves were very, very dark and brown underneath the skeletal remains. So that confirmed in his mind it had been there for a long time. I guess we`ll just have to see.

Let`s go to Dr. Janet Taylor, M.D., a psychiatrist. You know, doctor, the holidays, we have just gone over the Christmas holidays. And I think a lot of us, myself included, were thinking about the Anthony family, because they so long had held on to the belief that Caylee was alive, but they had to accept the reality come December 11th and onward that those were her remains. How could someone, a family, cope during a holiday period with news like that?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Jean, you`re right, the holidays are extremely tragic, and bring up so many memories of loss for everyone. But during the holidays, as in any time when you`re coping with a tragedy, the memorial service will be extremely important, and also try to gather memories and gather support wherever you can. I think, unfortunately, in this case, because the investigation and the trial is going to be ongoing, it`s going to be really difficult for closure. And the families, it`s just time and support that really can make a difference.

CASAREZ: I think you are right. Let`s go out to Mary in South Carolina. Mary, your question.

CALLER: Yes, I was wondering -- I wanted to ask the doctor about how long, approximately -- I know it`s hard to pinpoint it -- would the body have to have been in the trunk for the smell to be so overwhelming like it was? And also, I was curious why the brother is not cooperating as far as the finger prints and the DNA.

CASAREZ: OK. Dr. Joshua Perper, you have another question from one of our viewers. How long would the body have to be in the trunk to have the smell get to the point where it was at?

PERPER: Well, at least probably two or three days. In two or three days, it would be the smell. And my understanding is that the chemical analysis showed that the decomposition was about two to three days old.

CASAREZ: All right. To Doug Burns, defense attorney, Part B of Mary`s question in South Carolina: was Lee Anthony not voluntarily giving fingerprints, like George and Cindy Anthony did after the remains were found?

BURNS: Sure.

CASAREZ: Of course, that is his constitutional right. But why would someone at that point have his mother and father voluntarily give them, but he would ask for that subpoena or not give them until he received a subpoena.

BURNS: I think that`s an excellent point that the viewer raises. You do have the right against it, but by the same token, if you have nothing to hide, why in the world wouldn`t you? I mean, one of the other panelists made the point that, you know, you simply are making the authorities do it in the correct fashion, which is not uncommon, Jean, in terms of a lawyer advising somebody. But again, I think the caller makes a good point. But I think that`s a far cry, of course, from obstruction of justice.

CASAREZ: Right. You know, to Holly Hughes, prosecutor. When I look at this, and I think about the time that that body was spent in the trunk, that is something that I think could be very important to both sides. What do you say for the prosecution? How does that fare for the prosecution?

HUGHES: Well, I think it fares well for the prosecution, because it shows you, this wasn`t just a panicked moment where something accidentally happened and then she rushed out and dumped the body. This is someone who planned this. She kept that body in the trunk until she had time to get rid of it, dispose of it, without being seen. So she is methodical. She is not crazy. She is not legally insane. She is not out of her mind. She is planning every step of the way. And she waits until she can safely get rid of that body, when no one will see her, and she can get away with it, Jean.

So I think it goes directly to her state of mind before and after the crime, which will bode very, very well for the prosecution.

CASAREZ: And let me play devil`s advocate. George Prothrow, defense attorney, I think it could fare well for the defense. And let me tell you why. Do you remember the Robert Durst (ph) case in Houston? That`s where Robert Durst was accused, charged with first degree murder. He was acquitted of murder because the defense was able to separate the time of the killing, the murder, and separate it from the disposal of the body. I think there could be a mental defense in this case. What do you think?

PROTHROW: Well, absolutely, there could be a mental defense. But let`s remember one thing, an insanity defense is an affirmative defense. That will require Casey to actually admit that she engaged in this crime in this crime, that she committed it, but at the time that she did it, she wasn`t able to differentiate between right and wrong; she didn`t understand her actions.

At this point, there is no direct evidence linking her to any type of criminal behavior. She hasn`t admitted that she did it. There`s been no testimony. There`s been no confession. There`s also been no eye-witness testimony that has implicated her. All we have is circumstantial evidence. At this point, we have forensic evidence that, based on the FBI report that I`ve reviewed, is somewhat confusing at best. They haven`t come out to conclusively say that a decompositional event occurred, but that it may have occurred. They also found chemicals that would be present in an aerobic decompositional event, like you mentioned earlier.

They also noted in the FBI report that the levels of the chemicals that were found were somewhat lower than you would traditionally find in a decompositional event. So to ahead and look at the insanity defense I think is putting the cart a little before the horse. Right now the state still needs to prove that a murder occurred and that Casey actually participated in it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: Let`s go out to Susan Moss, child advocate, attorney. Susan, we`ve had breaking news tonight from the attorney that is advising Lee Anthony, telling the country and the jury pool that Lee Anthony may be charged with some very serious crimes. If you look at obstructing justice, tampering with evidence, I`m going to focus in on aiding and abetting, knowledge is a key element. Not knowledge a murder has occurred but knowledge that actual abuse and neglect of a child; that`s the knowledge that can come in regard to that count. Your thoughts?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. That`s the only knowledge you need. This guy better hire Monty Hall, because it`s time for him to make a deal. If the attorney is going on national television and trying to make his case, they`ve got something against this client, because me thinks he doth protest too much.

CASAREZ: Could that be a strategy here, some type of a deal?

MOSS: Absolutely, that`s going to be his only option. If he`s going national -- lawyers just don`t go national and say, my client`s innocent, unless they have some problem, something to hide.

CASAREZ: To Mary Jean in Connecticut, good evening.

CALLER: Hello, how are you?

CASAREZ: Fine, thank you.

CALLER: I`m calling because I was wondering if she were to breathe -- if little Caylee were to breathe in the chloroform and the tape were to be placed over her mouth after, would there be any deposits from that chloroform on the tape? And if so, would that prove that this was an aggravating factor?

CASAREZ: Good point. Yes, it could be an aggravating factor. Dr. Joshua Perper, Very quickly, if Caylee was alive, she breathed that chloroform, could it be on the tape?

PERPER: Well, if it`s found, then it`s evidence. If it`s not found, it doesn`t mean anything, because the tape was in water so long. But it`s clear that this is something which was done during life, and that Caylee died with the tape on her mouth.

CASAREZ: All right. Tonight, let us stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class Anthony Woodham, 37 years old, from Rogers, Arkansas. On a second tour of duty, Woodham planned to retire once he reached 20 years of service, which would have been next month. Woodham was a huge NASCAR fan. He had a passion for restoring and fixing up Ford Mustangs. He leaves behind his mother, his mother Katherine, his wife Crystal, and three children: Patrick, Mitchell, and Courtney.

Sergeant First Class Anthony Woodham, American hero.

I want to thank you all, to our guests. Our biggest thank you though is for you, for being with us tonight. Thank you so much for inviting us into your homes. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, everybody.

(NEWS BREAK)

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/29/ng.01.html

Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Missing Persons - High Profile => Caylee Marie Anthony - Florida (BODY FOUND) => Topic started by: Blonde on October 01, 2008, 08:11:20 AM