Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Is It Armageddon Yet?

How many wars are taking place at the moment?

In Gaza, it was a day of major victories for Hamas and its backers in Iran  and Syria - and of devastating setbacks for the Western-backed Fatah. "The era of justice and Islamic rule has arrived," Hamas spokesman Islam Shahawan said. Here is a link. http://tinyurl.com/2sxkxx

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Blowin' In The Wind

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

I honestly believe it's the beginning of the end of time... although I personally don't particulary like the idea.

I wrote that and then died laughing at myself... I sounded just like my grandmother... who used to say that when I was young!! But I think we are facing serious times... and quite possibly the beginning of the end... but honestly, there is not one of us that truly knows so after babbling for a few minutes... I am going to apologize for not making sense about what it is I am trying to say.... :oops:  :lol:

LV,Maybe this will help answer your question.

Mrs. Red,  I agree people have been saying it for decades, but I really do believe we are close.

ELEVEN FULFILLMENTS OF BIBLE PROPHECY REQUIRED FOR THE END OF THE AGE
 
1.  EXISTENCE OF A 200,000,000 MAN ARMY IN THE EAST
Revelation 9:16 "And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them."

An army of that size had never existed until China's army reached that number in the 1960's.

2.  REDEVELOPMENT OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (EUROPEAN COMMUNITY)
Daniel 2:32-33 "The head of the statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay."
Daniel 2:40-43 "Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.  And in that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have the toughness of iron, and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.  And in that you saw the iron mixed with clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery."

The fourth kingdom of iron is the Roman empire according to Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream.  The two legs are the division of the Roman empire into an eastern portion called the Byzantine empire which ended in the 1400's and a western portion based in Rome which ended in the 400's.  The nations of Europe since the Roman empire dissolved have never adhered or formed one empire but continue as separate nations, however, the European Union now has 15 Member States and is preparing for the accession of 13 eastern and southern European countries.

3.  RETURN OF THE ONE PURE LANGUAGE, HEBREW, TO ISRAEL
Zephaniah 3:9 "For then I will return to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent."

Prior to the restoration of Israel in 1948, Hebrew was a dead language.  Now Hebrew is spoken throughout Israel.

4.  REBUILDING OF THE TEMPLE, RESTORATION OF TEMPLE WORSHIP AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN JERUSALEM

For several end time prophecies to be fulfilled, the temple will have to be rebuilt.
 
Revelation 11:2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the oly city for forty-two months."

Daniel 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolation, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
 
Daniel 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary."
 

Some archeologists believe that the temple mount is actually 340 feet south of the Dome of the Rock site, putting the Dome of the Rock within the Court of the Gentiles.  This may be the court outside the temple that is left out.
 
There are many groups already working on preparations for the new temple.  The blueprints are already done, the temple garments have been made, and there have already been attempts to lay the cornerstone of the temple.  The only thing standing in the way of the construction of the new temple is Islam's third holiest site, the Dome of the Rock and government support for such an undertaking.  Some possible scenarios for the rebuilding of the temple are as follows:
 
1.  The persuasion and performing of miracles by the Antichrist and False Prophet convinces the Islamic world to approve the rebuilding.
 
2.  The United Nations will negotiate the rebuilding of the temple following a war with the armies from the North (Russia and Islamic forces).  This assumes that the war with the armies from the North is not the battle of Armageddon as some feel and that this attack occurs before the rapture or tribulation period begins.  The supernatural destruction of the Russian army and Islamic forces will cause an outpouring of Christian worship and zeal amongst the Jewish people who will reconstruct the temple.
 
3.  It is determined that the site of the first two temples is actually south of the Dome of the Rock, and the court of the gentiles (Dome of the Rock) will be left out of the 3rd temple.
 
A group in Israel called the Temple Mount Faithful have obtained most of the clothing, instruments and other equipment required for temple worship and are actively preparing for the laying of the third temple's cornerstone.

5.  APPEARANCE OF THE RED HEIFER AFTER 2000 YEARS

Numbers 19:2-7 "This is the statute of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel that they bring you an unblemished red heifer in which is no defect and on which a yoke has never been placed.  "You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be brought outside the camp and be slaughtered in his presence.  Next Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times.  "Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight; its hide and its flesh and its blood, with its refuse, shall be burned.  "The priest shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward come into the camp, but the priest shall be unclean until evening."

A red heifer will be required to be used in the process of purification described in the book of Numbers.  In May 1997 the first Red Heifer was born in 2000 years.  Another red Heifer was born in Israel in March of 2002.

6.  INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL

Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

Billy Graham was quoted as saying, "ninety percent of all the engineers and scientists who have ever lived are alive today."  Air travel, space travel, DNA research and human cloning are all examples of the rapid increase in knowledge in our generation.  

7.  RETURN OF THE ETHIOPIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL
Zephaniah 3:10-11 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, will bring My offerings.  In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain."
 

In 1984, Operation Moses saw the airlift of 15,000 Jews who had already fled to refugee camps in Sudan to escape starvation.  In 1991, Operation Solomon flew 20,000 Jews to Israel from Ethiopia itself.  A further airlift began in June of 1999, aimed at transporting the last 3,000 members of the Quara Jewish community from northeastern Ethiopia to Israel.

8.  THE RISE OF RUSSIA

Ezekiel 38:2,4,8 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.  I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords.  After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them."

In order for some end time events to occur Russia will have to be a strong nation with a strong military.  
Putin just tested a missile and are threatening the U.S. over anti-missile installation in Europe

9.  RETURN OF RUSSIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL

Jeremiah 23:7-8 "Therefore behold, the days are coming declares the Lord, when they will no longer say, as the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt, but as the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I have driven them.  Then they will live on their own soil."

In the 1970's and 1980's there was a mass exodus of Russian Jews out of Communist Russia.  In 1999 the Associated Press reported a dramatic increase in the number of Jewish immigrants from Russia, bringing the largest number of Russian Jews to Israel since the early 1990's.
 
10.  TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST

Revelation 13:16-17 "And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."
On May 10, three members of a family in Florida became the first people to receive the biochip implant.  Each device, made of silicon and called a VeriChip, is a small radio transmitter about the size of a piece of rice that is injected under a person's skin. It transmits a unique personal ID number whenever it is within a few feet of a special receiver unit. VeriChip's maker describes it as "a miniaturized, implantable, radio frequency identification device (RFID) that can be used in a variety of security, emergency and healthcare applications."
 
Is the biochip the mark of the beast to be used by the antichrist?  We can't really know.  What is significant is that people are being softened to the idea of a mark or an implant as a means of maintaining security, providing medical information, and regulating a more interdependent world.  As attitudes change, fears subside, and people are convinced of the need for such a mark, the true mark of the beast will be easily introduced to the world by the antichrist.

11.  PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT

The United Nations, World Trade Organization, International Criminal Court, UN peacekeeping/police force, numerous UN NGO's, and other agencies are preliminary steps to the formation of a one world government.  We now have the communications technology, transportation, and the pro-globalization media necessary to usher in the one world government headed by the antichrist.  The increasing terrorist threat and the middle east conflict will only speed up the formation of this governing body as fear and promises of better security make more people willing to give up their national sovereignty for global governance.

12.  INSTANT COMMUNICATION AROUND THE WORLD

Revelation 11:3, 7-10 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.  When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.  And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.  Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.  And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth."

Television and the 24-hour news networks make it possible for people around the world to see the dead prophets and rejoice at their deaths.
 
Luke 21:28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
 
Luke 21:32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."

SIX SIGNS GIVEN BY JESUS TO INDICATE HIS COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE
 
1.  FALSE PROPHETS AND CHRISTS
Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and will mislead many."
Matthew 24:11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many."

In the last several years many have claimed to be the Messiah.  Jim Jones and David Koresh are examples of these false christs as well as countless others who are not as newsworthy.  These false prophets are a prelude to the ultimate false christ, the antichrist.  Many New Age groups, some even NGO's working for the United Nations, are anxiously awaiting the antichrist, preparing the way for his acceptance as the head of the hierarchy of gods and the one who will usher in world peace.

2.  WARS
Matthew 24:6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end."

Rumors of wars in all areas of the world now occur frequently thanks to instant media coverage and the availability of a multitude of 24-hour news sources.

Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

More people have been killed in warfare in this century than at any other time in history.  As the death toll rises in the Middle East, more and more countries work feverishly to develop devastating weapons of mass destruction.  Add to that the expanding threat of terrorism and unpredictable dictators such as Saddam Hussein, and the potential for the outbreak of war exists in nations, kingdoms and places across the globe.

3.  FAMINES
Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

As white, Christian farmers are driven out of Zimbabwe in increasing numbers, and foreigners move in to replace life-sustaining crops with poppies that now supply 25% of the worlds drugs, famine spreads across the African continent.  The undernourished are not limited to Africa, however.  A large portion of the worlds 5 billion people suffers from a shortage of food.

4.  EARTHQUAKES
Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

The number and intensity of earthquakes this century is at a level higher than any other time in history.  A staggering number of seismic events occur around the world daily.  The earthquake seismic monitor IRIS shows all major earthquakes for the last year.  Indicated by yellow and red circles, the seismic events of the last 15 days provides strong evidence of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7 in our day.  By contrast, in the years from 1890 to 1900 there was only one major earthquake in the world.

5.  TRIBULATIONS
Matthew 24:8-9 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.  Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name."

Christians are under attack throughout the world today.  In the United States Christians still enjoy freedom to worship God without suffering much more than ridicule, hatred, or discrimination at work and school.  However in many other countries such as China, Sudan, Africa, Saudi Arabia, Korea, Russia, and many Muslim nations, Christian suffer much greater persecution and often times death for their faith.  During the tribulation this suffering will be worldwide and will continue even to the point of martyrdom.  These first 5 signs will increase in intensity and severity as the tribulation approaches, much like the birth pangs or contractions of a pregnant woman worsen as the delivery time approaches.

6.  THE GOSPEL WILL BE PREACHED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD
Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."

This prophecy has already been fulfilled through television, radio, missionaries, the translation of the Bible into many languages, and the internet.  People all over the world now hear the message of Christ from missionaries who have the means to travel the globe, and via technology that allows us to communicate with people on the other side of the world right from our own homes, churches and offices.
 
TWO CHARACTERISTICS OF THE END OF THE AGE FROM THE APOSTLE PAUL
 
1.  GODLESSNESS IN THE LAST DAYS
II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.  For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

For anyone who has watched television, read a newspaper, lost a retirement to corporate greed and corruption, or just walked outside their front door, it is obvious this prophecy has been fulfilled by our generation.  Our leaders are often corrupt; our cities are filled with crime, brutality, and neon signs proclaiming our sinful, godless nature.  The New Age Movement brings in increasing numbers of mystics who claim to be the enlightened ones.  They are some of the most educated and influential people in our societies, and yet the most lacking in real truth.

2.  APOSTASY (FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH)
I Timothy 4:1-3 "But the spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.  By means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth."  

Churches today are becoming more and more ecumenical, embracing the New Age interfaith agenda, and denying Christ as the only way to salvation.  Giving in to the politically correct media and a corrupt society, they have embrace homosexuality as an acceptable alternate lifestyle and preach tolerance and compromise in place of God's truth for the salvation of the world.  The environmentalist movement within the New Age movement lures them into a worship of mother earth, belief in past lives, reincarnation, and Karma while demonizing all those who would eat the meat God gave us as nourishment for our bodies.

Dear Dihannah,

Thank you for your informative post and all the work you did writing it.

I am clueless about the New Testament in the same way I'm clueless about Shango. I cannot relate to either one. Please don't take it personally. I think the world will end way before the temple can be rebuilt.

Jews do not believe the Messiah is here yet. When my first grandson was born and we had the bris on the eighth day of his life, the Rabbi looked down at him and asked "Are you the Messiah? I know I'm not but maybe you are."

I can easily debunk the resurrection but I won't. From past experience, it has caused me lots of trouble and people are so upset they will never talk to me again.

Thank you again.

Louise

Good summation, Dihannah.

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with BSF (Bible Study Fellowship), but it's a seven year, non-demoniational, international, study of the Bible that is absolutely wonderful. After I completed it, I missed having a structured study, so took a 2 year course of Revelation through a local chapter of "Precept Ministries". I liked the format of BSF better, but learned a lot in that study. First thing I learned is that the Bible is a book with the answers in the back. To even know the questions you have to look at the beginning, and Revelation can only be approached with a good foundational understanding of at least Genesis and Daniel. If Christians are to move from "milk" to "meat", then the book order of the Bible really is divinely inspired, because Revelation is a full rump roast!  :lol:

This stuff is hard to discuss without sounding like all our Grandmothers, Mrs. Red! End time Prophecies have a specifically directed audience........it's intended for "believers", given by God to Jesus, and from Jesus to believers, through John. It's the only book that promises a Blessing for those that read and hear and keeps the accuracy of the book:

Rev 1:1   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, [even] the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John;  
Rev 1:2   who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, [even] of all things that he saw.  
Rev 1:3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.  

I think that when we say things like "It's the end of the world!" it only sounds nuts when we aren't speaking to believers, and Mrs. Red.........you sound incredibly sound and spot on to me. I could write a book on my response to you, or simply answer you with one word: "Yes".

LOUISE!!! I never, ever, purposefully disagree or confront anyone.........especially you, but hon, you just can't throw out a statement like "I can easily debunk the resurrection" and not expect to be challenged! I'm saying a prayer right now that you can know my tone.....which is calm, and my heart.........which is open, when I respond. But, Louise, I have to respond:

There are so many things I could go to, but I'll address the path that is foremeost in my mind as I read your statement.

Remember that Jews and Gentiles alike came to belief in Jesus as Messiah through the Old Testament Scriptures.................the New Testament didn't exist. This is going to be a long post, but I'm just selecting ONE ( Isaiah) Old Testament book and listing the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus as Messiah. I've included the prophecy fulfilled verses in the New Testament which I know you are not familiar with, but you should know Isaiah.
Isaiah Prophecies OT Scripture NT Fulfillment
The Jews would reject the Messiah.
  Isaiah 6:9-10a
  John 12:37-40
 
The Messiah would teach in parables.
  Isaiah 6:9-10b
  Matthew 13:13-15
 
The Messiah would be born of a virgin.
  Isaiah 7:14a
  Luke 1:34-35
 
The Messiah would be called Immanuel, "God With Us."
  Isaiah 7:14b
  Matthew 1:21-23, John 12:45
 
The Messiah would be God.
  Isaiah 7:14c
 
 1 Timothy 3:16
 
The Messiah would have wisdom from His childhood.
  Isaiah 7:15
  Luke 2:40
 
The Messiah would be a "Stumbling Stone" for the Jews.
  Isaiah 8:14
  Matthew 21:43-44
 
The Messiah would minister in Galilee.
  Isaiah 9:1-2a
  Matthew 4:12-17
 
The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles.
  Isaiah 9:1-2b
  Luke 2:28-32
 
The birth of the Messiah.
  Isaiah 9:6a
  Luke 2:11
 
The Messiah would be the Son of God.
  Isaiah 9:6b
  Luke 1:35
 
The Messiah would be both man and God.
  Isaiah 9:6c
  John 10:30
 John 12:45
 John 14:7
 
The Messiah would be from everlasting.
  Isaiah 9:6d
  Colossians 1:17
 
The Messiah would come from the lineage of Jesse.
  Isaiah 11:1a
  Luke 3:23-32
 
The Messiah would grow up in Nazareth.
  Isaiah 11:1b
  Matthew 2:21-23
 
The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon Him.
  Isaiah 11:2a
  Matthew 3:16-17
 
The Messiah would have the Spirit of knowledge and wisdom.
  Isaiah 11:2b
  Matthew 13:54
 
The Messiah would have the Spirit of knowledge and fear of God.
   Isaiah 11:2c
  Matthew 11:27
 John 15:10
 
The Messiah would have a quick understanding in the fear of the LORD.
  Isaiah 11:3a
  Luke 2:46-47
 Luke 4:31-32
 John 14:31
 
The Messiah would not judge on the basis of outward appearance.
  Isaiah 11:3b
  John 2:24-25
 John 7:24
 
The Messiah would judge the poor with righteousness.
  Isaiah 11:4
  Mark 12:41-44
 Luke 13:30
 
The Messiah would come from the lineage of Jesse.
  Isaiah 11:10a
  Luke 3:23-32
 
The Messiah would come for all people.
  Isaiah 11:10b
  Acts 13:47-48
 
The Messiah would have the key of David.
  Isaiah 22:22
  Revelation 3:7
 
The Messiah would defeat death (sin).
  Isaiah 25:8
  Revelation 1:18
 2 Timothy 1:10
 
Several Saints would rise to life at the resurrection of the Messiah.
  Isaiah 26:19
  Matthew 27:52-53
 
The Messiah would be the cornerstone.
  Isaiah 28:16
  1 Peter 2:4-6
 
The Messiah would heal the blind.
  Isaiah 35:5a
  Mark 10:51-52
 John 9:1-7
 
The Messiah would heal the deaf.
  Isaiah 35:5b
  Mark 7:32-35
 
The Messiah would heal the lame.
  Isaiah 35:6a
  Matthew 12:10-13
 John 5:5-9
 
The Messiah would heal the dumb.
  Isaiah 35:6b
  Matthew 9:32-33
 Matthew 15:30
 
The forerunner (John The Baptist) of the Messiah would live in the wilderness.
  Isaiah 40:3a
  Matthew 3:1-4
 
The forerunner (John The Baptist) would prepare people for the coming of the Messiah.
  Isaiah 40:3b
  Matthew 3:11
 Luke 1:17
 John 1:29
 John 3:28
 
The Messiah would be God.
  Isaiah 40:3c
  John 10:30
 Philippians 2:5-7
 
The Messiah would be as a shepherd.
  Isaiah 40:11
  John 10:11
 Mark 9:36-37
 
The Messiah would be God's messenger.
  Isaiah 42:1a
  John 4:34
 John 5:30
 
The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon Him.
  Isaiah 42:1b
  Matthew 3:16-17
 
The Messiah would please God.
  Isaiah 42:1c
  Matthew 3:16-17
 
The Messiah would not desire personal attention for Himself.
  Isaiah 42:2
  Matthew 12:15-21
 
The Messiah would have compassion for the poor and needy.
  Isaiah 42:3
  Matthew 11:4-5
 Matthew 12:15-20
 
The Messiah would receive direction from God.
  Isaiah 42:6a
  John 5:19-20
 John 14:10-11
 
The Messiah would be ministered to by God.
  Isaiah 42:6b
  John 8:29
 Luke 22:42-43
 
The Messiah would be the "New Covenant".
  Isaiah 42:6c
  Matthew 26:28
 
The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles.
  Isaiah 42:6d
  John 8:12
 
The Messiah would heal the blind.
  Isaiah 42:7
  Matthew 9:27-30
 Matthew 21:14
 
The Messiah would be the "First and the Last".
  Isaiah 44:6
  Rev. 1:17-18
 
The Messiah would be from everlasting.
  Isaiah 48:16
  John 17:24
 
The Messiah would come for all people.
  Isaiah 49:1a
  1 Timothy 2:4-6
 
The Messiah would be called by God while in the womb.
  Isaiah 49:1b
  Matthew 1:20-21
 
The Messiah would be called by His name before he was born.
  Isaiah 49:1c
  Luke 1:30-31
 
The Messiah's words would be as a sharp as a two-edged sword.
  Isaiah 49:2a
  Rev. 2:12-16
 John 12:48
 
The Messiah would be protected by God.
  Isaiah 49:2b
  Matthew 2:13-15
 
The Messiah would be empowered for the judgment of mankind.
  Isaiah 49:2c
  John 5:22-29
 
The Messiah would be God's servant.
  Isaiah 49:3a
  John 17:4
 
The Messiah's life and death would glorify God.
  Isaiah 49:3b
  Matthew 15:30-31
 
The Messiah would be sorrowful because of the Jew's unbelief.
  Isaiah 49:4
  Luke 19:41-42
 
The Messiah would be God's servant.
  Isaiah 49:5a
  John 6:38
 John 8:29
 
The Messiah would come to bring Israel back to God.
  Isaiah 49:5b
  Matthew 15:24
 Matthew 10:5-7
 
The Messiah would be God's servant.
  Isaiah 49:6a
  John 1:49-50
 
The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles.
  Isaiah 49:6b
  Acts 13:47-48
 
The Messiah would be despised.
  Isaiah 49:7
  John 10:20
 Matthew 27:22
 
The Palms of the Messiah would be a witness.
  Isaiah 49:16
  John 20:25-28
 
The Messiah would speak with God given knowledge.
  Isaiah 50:4
  John 12:49
 Matthew 7:28-29
 
The Messiah would not be rebellious to God's will.
  Isaiah 50:5
  John 12:27
 
The Messiah's back would be lashed (stripped).
  Isaiah 50:6a
  Matthew 27:26
 
The Messiah's face would be beaten and spit upon.
  Isaiah 50:6b
  Matthew 26:67
 
The Messiah would not waver from His mission.
  Isaiah 50:7
  Luke 9:51-53
 
The Messiah would be justified by His righteousness.
  Isaiah 50:8
  1 Timothy 3:16
 Hebrews 8:32-34
 
The Messiah would completely trust in God.
  Isaiah 50:8-10
  John 11:7-10
 
The Messiah would proclaim the gospel from the mountain tops.
  Isaiah 52:7
  Matthew 5:1-7:29
 John 14:31
 
The Messiah would be God's servant.
  Isaiah 52:13a
  John 9:4
 John 14:31
 
The Messiah would be highly exalted by God.
  Isaiah 52:13b
  Philippians 2:9-11
 
The Messiah's face would be disfigured from extreme beatings during His trial.
 
 Isaiah 52:14
  Mat. 26:67-68
 Mat. 27:26-30
 
The Messiah's blood would be shed to make atonement for all mankind.
  Isaiah 52:15
  Revelation 1:5
 
The Messiah's own people would reject Him.
  Isaiah 53:1
  John 12:37-38
 
The Messiah would grow up in Nazareth.
  Isaiah 53:2a
  Matthew 2:21-23
 
The Messiah would appear as an ordinary man.
  Isaiah 53:2b
  Philippians 2:7-8
 
The Messiah would be despised.
  Isaiah 53:3a
  Luke 4:28-29
 
The Messiah would be rejected.
  Isaiah 53:3b
  Mat. 27:21-23
 
The Messiah would suffer great sorrow and grief.
  Isaiah 53:3c
  Luke 19:41-42
 Mat. 26:37-38
 Matthew 27:46
 
Men would deny association with the Messiah.
 Isaiah 53:3d
  Mark 14:50-52
 Mat. 26:73-74
 
The Messiah bore our sorrows and sufferings
 Isaiah 53:4a
  Luke 6:17-19
 Matthew 8:16-17
 
The Messiah would bear the sins of the world upon Himself.
 
 Isaiah 53:4b
  1 Peter 2:24
 1 Peter 3:18
 
Many would think the Messiah to be cursed by God.
  Isaiah 53:4c
  Mat. 27:41-43
 
The Messiah would bear the penalty of death for man's sins.
  Isaiah 53:5a
  Luke 23:33
 Hebrews 9:28
 
The Messiah's would be bruised for our iniquities.
 
  Isaiah 53:5b
  Colossians 1:20
 Eph. 2:13-18
 
The Messiah's back would be lashed at His trial.
  Isaiah 53:5c
  Matthew 27:26
 1 Peter 2:24
 
The Messiah would be the sin-bearer for all mankind.
  Isaiah 53:6
  Galatians 1:4
 
The Messiah would be oppressed and afflicted.
  Isaiah 53:7a
  Mat. 27:27-31
 
The Messiah would be silent as a lamb before His accusers.
  Isaiah 53:7b
  Mat. 27:12-14
 
The Messiah would be God's sacrificial lamb.
  Isaiah 53:7c
  John 1:29
 John 19:14-18
 
The Messiah would be condemned and persecuted.
  Isaiah 53:8a
  Mat. 26:47-27:31
 
The Messiah would be judged.
  Isaiah 53:8b
  John 18:13-22
 Mat. 26:57-66
 Matthew 27:1
 Matthew 27:22
 Luke 23:11
 
The Messiah would be killed.
  Isaiah 53:8c
  Matthew 27:35
 
The Messiah would die for the sins of the world.
  Isaiah 53:8d
  1 John 2:2
 
The Messiah would be buried in a borrowed rich man's tomb.
  Isaiah 53:9a
  Matthew 27:57
 
The Messiah would be completely innocent.
  Isaiah 53:9b
  Mark 15:3
 
The Messiah would have no deceit guile in His mouth.
  Isaiah 53:9c
  John 18:38
 Luke 23:33-34
 1 Peter 2:21-22
 
God's will would be that the Messiah should die for all mankind.
  Isaiah 53:10a
  John 18:11
 Romans 3:23-26
 
The Messiah would be a sin offering.
  Isaiah 53:10b
  Matthew 20:28
 Ephesians 5:2
 
The Messiah would be resurrected and live forever.
 Isaiah 53:10c
  Mark 16:16
 Rev. 1:17-18
 
The Messiah would prosper.
  Isaiah 53:10d
  John 17:1-5
 Revelation 5:12
 
God would be completely satisfied with the suffering of the Messiah.
  Isaiah 53:11a
  John 12:27
 Matthew 27:46
 
The Messiah would be God's servant.
  Isaiah 53:11b
  Romans 5:18-19
 
The Messiah would justify man before God.
  Isaiah 53:11c
  Romans 5:8-9
 
The Messiah would be the sin offering for all mankind.
  Isaiah 53:11d
  Hebrews 9:28
 
The Messiah would be exalted by God for his sacrifice.
  Isaiah 53:12a
  Matthew 28:18
 
The Messiah would freely lay down His life to save mankind.
  Isaiah 53:12b
  Luke 23:46
 
The Messiah would be counted with the criminals.
  Isaiah 53:12c
  Luke 23:32
 
The Messiah would be the sin offering for all mankind.
  Isaiah 53:12d
  2 Cor. 5:21
 
The Messiah would intercede for man to God.
  Isaiah 53:12e
  Luke 23:34
 
The Messiah would be resurrected by God.
  Isaiah 55:3
  Acts 10:40-41
 Acts 13:34
 
The Messiah would be a witness.
  Isaiah 55:4
  John 3:10-12
 John 18:37
 
The Messiah would come to provide salvation for all mankind.
  Isaiah 59:15-16a
  John 6:40
 1 Thes. 5:8-10
 
The Messiah would intercede between God and man.
  Isaiah 59:15-16b
  Mat. 10:32-33
 Romans 8:34
 
The Messiah would come to Zion as their Redeemer.
  Isaiah 59:20
  Luke 2:38
 John 10:11
 
The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon Him.
  Isaiah 61:1
  Matthew 3:16-17
 
The Messiah would preach the gospel of "Good News".
  Isaiah 61:1-2
  Luke 4:18-21
 
The Messiah would come to provide salvation.
  Isaiah 63:5
  John 3:17
 Col. 2:13-15
 
The Messiah would be revealed to a people who were not seeking Him.
  Isaiah 65:1
  Mat. 15:22-28
 Romans 10:18-20
 
The Messiah would be rejected by His own (Jews).
  Isaiah 65:2
  John 5:37-40

Louise, more than anything else, I want you to know that I'm aware that there are Jews that look at the Christian symbol of the cross and are horrified that anyone could possibly think that "their" Messiah could be depicted wounded and bleeding by any human hands. Jesus was a Jew, and so were all 12 desciples, he went first to the Jews, and the New Testament, as well as the Old is a Jewish Book, written ENTIRELY by Jews. This event marked the turn of His ministry from a solely Jewish audience to include Gentiles, He was mourning and actually said to a Gentile woman desperately seeking any possible healing for her daughter:

Mat 15:24   But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  
Mat 15:25   But she came and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.  
Mat 15:26   And he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs.  
Mat 15:27   But she said, Yea, Lord: for even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.  
Mat 15:28   Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it done unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was healed from that hour.  

That is my passage in the Bible, Louise. That scripture brought healing to me when nothing else could.............but that's a different story. For now, I would have you consider this: The 12 men who had followed and learned from this Jesus, and come to believe He was the Messiah had watched His arrest, witnessed His trials, saw Him beaten, and by the time He was crucified, all but one had run in fear, denied they knew him, and were hiding for their own safety due to association with Him. They were terrified, disallusioned, rocked to the core. FROM THIS STATE, THEY EMERGED TO TAKE HIS TEACHINGS TO THE WORLD AND FACE MARTYRDOM. CHRISTIANITY WAS BORN FROM THESE TERRIFIED TWELVE.

What happened? What changed?
They saw Him die a criminal's death in agony...................................and they saw Him live again, Louise. They didn't "hope", they "knew". The Resurrection, Louise...............He walked and ate among them, and you and I, who put Him on the cross, have the perfect sacrifice for atonement of our sin, accepted by God and forgiveness given through belief in the gift.
Where is the blood atonement for Jews, Louise? The Law requires it, your scripture requires it. Do you think that because the temple and ark aren't available that god just made a mistake requiring it? Do you believe that God just didn't know that the temple would be destroyed, so he forgot to make a contingient plan? Louise! The Jews were and still are His CHOSEN people! Salvation will again be "of the Jews" before this world ends and He has not forgotten His promise or Love for them!!! He made provision, Louise. He nailed it to a tree and resurrected it. He lives and He will return as the Messiah that you want...............with power and weilding judgement. He will return with His Saints, and because He first came to sacrifice, there will be many more! Sin came into the world THROUGH Man ( Adam ), and God cannot be anything other than His own loving and Just nature, so He gave His Son to be born of man and live without blemish or sin, to become the blood atonement for that sin. He lives Louise, He is sitting at God's right hand. The day is coming when He will stand and Old Testament scripture says this about that day:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born

Shalom, Louise. God Bless.

Hi CBB,

Jews have NEVER EVER believed Jesus is the Messiah. Never. Where did you get that information? And honey, I do realize your tone is very sincere.

I have no idea how to deal with the New Testament. The more people who quote the New Testament, the more I zone out. I hold by the Old Testament.

Your statement that "you just can't throw out a statement like "I can easily debunk the resurrection" and not expect to be challenged!"  CBB, yes I can. I already said that I would be hated if I exposed the truth.  It's not a complicated position according to Jewish law. Your know that Mary, Joseph and Jesus were Jews? Yes or no?

I was tempted but I have no desire to be hated so I'm not saying anything further on this subject.

Sorry. I should never have mentioned that.

Yes, Mary, Joseph and Jesus were Jews; absolutely. So were each of the disciples, and so were a lot of followers and believers of Jesus before the crucifixtion and after. Louise, on this point, I don't have to depend on the Bible, new or old. Josephus, a secular historian, and others who chronicled the rise and spread of Christianity record that because of the division among Jews about the "Messiahship" of Jesus, Jews who did believe that Jesus was the "Christ" ,  became known as "Christians". There were Jews that felt that the notion was blasphemous to suggest and there were Jews that were absolutely convinced that He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies. "Saul" was a real person, a real persecutor of those Jews known as "Christians", and a Jew. He ended up writing 13 books of the New Testament. Why do you think that the Sanhedrein bothered to take Jesus to Pilate? He became known to them from those coming to the temple.

I don't want to argue the points either, Louise. I've tried to answer the questions you asked me in your last post, and can't help but notice that you left mine about the required blood sacrifice today, unanswered. This I do know.................I can't let someone challenge my faith without responding, it's just not in me. I respect that you may feel the same. Therefore, maybe we should just both be affirmed of our own beliefs, and wish each other well in our own respective faith. I can do that.

LV, I completely understand you are Jewish and I don't want to offend you and you will never make me mad.  We don't have to go into the faith discussion. But just wanted to point out how the Bible prophecies are becoming fulfilled as each day goes by.  

You asked, so I just had to point it out.  BTW, I can't take credit for writing all that.  I found it on a website and copied.  I forgot to credit it  :oops:

CBB,

I don't know about the required blood sacrifice other than Abraham. Can you explain it to me?

Otherwise, I agree with you. You wrote:  "Therefore, maybe we should just both be affirmed of our own beliefs, and wish each other well in our own respective faith. I can do that." CBB, I can do that too. I have the ultimate respect for everyone's beliefs.

We can overcome that and still be friends.

With love to you,
Louise

Very well stated CBB!  I couldn't have said that better myself. And of course, I'm not as good as you all at writing.  Your knowledge by far exceeds mine, at least at memorizing versus.  I have also found great comfort in the Bible.  

LV,  Mary, Joseph and Jesus WERE Jews!  And Jews ARE God's chosen people.
I can promise you, CBB and I would never hate you nor condemn you for not agreeing with us on this.  Please do NOT be afraid to speak your beliefs and feelings.  Just because we don't agree, doesn't mean we are not all God's children.  We are not Muslims who wish to kill those who don't believe what we do.   On the contrary, we are to love all our fellow men, no matter what!  

WE will LOVE you no matter what!  :wink:

Ok, I started reading these posts from bottom up and answered out of order.   But CBB, that sounds very interesting, the studies you did.  I need to get back into more structured teachings.  I haven't even been attending church like I used to and feel like such a hypocrite.  

I joined a forum, you may find interesting.  If you get a chance to check it out, let me know your thoughts.  Great christian site, Bible studies and discussions and prophecy teachings.  Wonderful, caring people there too.  I do more reading and learning than posting, but you would be a great contributor.

www.tribforces.com

CBB and DiHannah,
Thanks for bringing all of that information in here.  I did a study of Revelations during Lent and was in awe of all I learned.  I used a book called Revelations for the BIblically Inept, and it was amazing!

LV, I realize that many Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Savior, the Promised One, but many did and as CBB stated that is the basis of the Christian faith.  We know the truth, which is that Jesus died on the Cross for us and shed his blood in payment for the washing away (by his blood) of our sins.  

You may, by your statement below feel as if you know a truth to be exposed, and perhaps it is what feels like the truth to you... but it's not.  It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus.... try reading the New Testament... it completely backs up the Old Testament... you would find Revelations fascinating, espeically since it fortells so much of our times.

LV wrote:
"Your statement that "you just can't throw out a statement like "I can easily debunk the resurrection" and not expect to be challenged!" CBB, yes I can. I already said that I would be hated if I exposed the truth. It's not a complicated position according to Jewish law. Your know that Mary, Joseph and Jesus were Jews? Yes or no? "

Mary, Joseph and Jesus were Jews, we all know and acknowledge that but the TRUTH is that Jesus was the Son of GOD and died on the Cross to save us - that is where it begins and ends.

How about if I just give you the scripture reference:
Leviticus 17:11

For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life.
Jews sacrificed "unblemished" animals for blood atonement of sin, and priests from the tribe of Levi poured it on the mercy seat ( the covering lid of the ark of the covenent ) kept in the Holy of Holies in the temple. This passage is also observed today in Kosher preparation that dictates all blood must be drained from the meat or broiled out of it before it is eaten.

 Abraham's sacrifice was of a ram caught in the thicket; given as a substitute for his willingness to sacrifice his son.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold, behind [him] a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt-offering in the stead of his son.

Just as a footnote, Christians find this important passage as purposeful precedence for Jesus as our "substitute" for blood atonement.

Love back at you, Louise!

We could go to church together, Mrs. Red!  :wink:

Mrs.Red,

Re your comment "LV, I realize that many Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Savior ..."

Mrs., NO Jews believe Jesus was the Messiah.  Let me say that again.  NO Jews believe Jesus was the Messiah. As I mentioned previously, we are still waiting.

Please understand, I want you to enjoy religion as much as I do mine. Okay?

Louise,

"Please understand, I want you to enjoy religion as much as I do mine. Okay?"

Reading this thread began with the lyrics to a song, well I think it began in the wrong place and although you state you want to allow us to love our christianity, much of what you are writing is combative in nature and undermines that precept.

Songs are often bites of history but I do not believe that particular song is one of a prophet, but one person's perspective at a moment in time.

I have also seen you disagree with more than one or two doctrine the many jewish I do know and do attend temple religiously, subscribe to. Many of them would disagree with you as well. I think the best course for you now would be to bring some documentation supporting your contentions which would assist greatly.

If you can debunk the resurrection then put it into writing equal to the support and referencing CBB supplied please. If you can't supply the references then I will be unlikely to read it. Frankly this feels like your slams against the Mormons with no documentation, I guess this week it's the Christians?

It truly does feel like you are promoting for yourself do as I say and not as I do?

please don't use that stupid work of fiction... The Da Vinci Code as the truth either, because regardless of how hard Hollywood et. al tries to make it true, it isn't!

LV - I know more than a few JEWISH people... there are most definately those that believe in Jesus... just as None said.

Louise.........there are Messianic Jews, but perhaps the Jewish religion would not consider them Jews since they believe that Jesus was Messiah.
Jews for Jesus is one such group. Basically these folks were born Jewish and converted to belief in Jesus as Messiah, or "Christian" as an adult.

Friends,

I guess what disturbs me most is to think even within this thread, that we all cannot embrace the message of spirituality in unison, whatever the differences may be. Is it always necessary to tear down another religion Louise, in order to elevate one you cleave to or to prove a point?

For me it isn't, I know my post sounded harsh but my real intent is to get the message across. I don't knock the jewish faith nor mormons even if I disagree for over history EVERY religion has it's sore points. I just don't throw out the baby with the bath water except with radical muslim doctrine and some of the deep christian fundamentalists - again they are extremists which is why.

None, you wrote "Is it always necessary to tear down another religion Louise, in order to elevate one you cleave to or to prove a point?" I have not torn down any religion.  I want you to enjoy your religion as I do mine. Now, I am bowing out of this thread.

Okay, I came back to this thread due to your statement that "you just can't throw out a statement like "I can easily debunk the resurrection" and not expect to be challenged!"

CBB, Jews for Jesus has been around for a long time and it is considered a cult. Their agenda is to convert Jews to Christianity.

I now realize my comment about debunking the resurrection has caused a huge amount of flack.  I told you this would happen. I cannot imagine how I would be attacked if I explained the whole story.  So that is why I haven't posted it. It's probably more than you can deal with and you would reject it out of hand. You have no insight into real Jewish law. And you seem to be upset with me when I suggest the answer is in plain sight, via orthodox Jewish law.

For the last time, I want you to know I respect your Christianity, and I expect you to respect my religion in the way I respect yours.

I'm entitled to my beliefs and don't like you telling me what I believe is wrong.  Can y'all please stop and desist from telling me my beliefs are wrong. Why are you doing this?

As far as I know, there is freedom of speech on this forum.

Please everybody, I know I feel strongly about my faith as others do theirs.  But for the love of "GOD", the same one who loves us all, let's please not attack and make this a nasty debate.  A discussion is fine, but respect and love is what all of our "GOD" wants.  So let's be civil and do what he would want us to do.  We do not have to agree, but agree to disagree, like in politics. Religion is sacred and it is not for us to judge anybody!  That's God's job, no matter what religion we are.  

Nobody should ever feel the need to defend themselves, so let's not make anybody do so.  Again, it's God's judgement ,not ours and everybody has a right to freedom of religion.  That's what is so wonderful about the USA!

I am a proud Christian and know Jesus died for my sins.  But I also know Jesus expectations of me and that is not to pass judgement on my neighbor.  So Respect and civility, please?

I love you all!  No matter what!

Louise....  I'm really confused as to why you feel attacked. The resurection is the cornerstone, the absolute centrality of Christianity. If Jesus had died on the cross and never risen, then He was just a man. An incredible teacher, but just a man. Casually stating that "I can easily debunk the resurrection" is an attack on my faith, and I would die for my faith, Louise. You may feel the same way about your beliefs, but never, not once, have I flippantly dismissed the foundations of your beliefs. I haven't undermined the Abrahamic covenant or suggested that Issac wasn't the proper heir of God's promise, or casually suggested that Moses was a fraud, and I could easily debunk the exodus as a fairy tale.

Frankly, I have come to believe that I have more respect for those Jewish principles and truth than you do. If you don't have knowledge of the Blood Sacrifice as atonement for sin then Louise, I'm left to wonder if you know what you're defending. And let me assure you, there is not one passage of Jewish Scripture that bears defending on my account. I accept it in full, I believe every word. You have accused me of having no insight to Jewish Law. My only response to that is to say that I have humbly and earnestly approached scripture to have knowledge of what I hope to attain insight. I recognize that I have no hope for insight without knowledge, and I believe that God gave us His word so that we may have both.
 

I don't expect nor have I suggested that you convert, and haven't invited you to be even open to the suggestion. You asked ME about Jewish Law, and my answers to those specific questions are accurate according to Old Testament scripture: your Bible, Louise. I have tried to let your own faith's scripture answer specific questions, and often sited the Bibical reference.


Jews for Jesus may very well be a cult, and it may have an agenda to convert Jews to Christianity. I did not represent it otherwise. I only represented it at all in response to your assertion that NO Jew believes in Jesus, and even went on to say that perhaps the Jewish Faith does not recognize Jews who have come to believe Jesus was the Messiah, as Jews. I don't know the answer to that for sure, but that would be my guess.

I knew a man; born and raised in a Jewish family, who came to believe that Jesus was Messiah. He was a public figure named Zola Levitt and he went on to establish a Dallas based ministry. Although he recently passed away, his ministry continues and has a web site. I personally know that he considered himself a Jew until the day he died. I personally know that he was not a cult leader, nor did he preside over anything the least bit cultish. If you define "Jew" strictly as one who does not believe that Jesus was Messiah, then watch out, 'cause you'll need to make room for Muslims, Buddests, and Hindus' in your faith. My definition of "Jew" would include "Abraham's descendents" among many other things.

Dihanna's right. There should be and traditionally, in this country, has been a kindred unifying spirit among Jews and Christians. Our supportive relationship with Israel in my opinion, should be even stronger and there have been times we haven't done enough. That kindredness is based in the Judeo Christian faith. Christians believe that your God, is our God. Don't portray yourself as victim of intolerance, Louise. You have been neither victim nor suffered intolerance. You chose to flippantly insult my faith and to personally insult me, and then react as if your superior intellect was just over my head.

I'm not challenging your faith. I think I've just challenged you.

Again, if any message I have left in this thread needs more clarity, my intent is simply this.

If we cannot find middle ground to allow for differing views for of course, we all realize religions are such closely-held beliefs, then what chance is there ever for resolution to the issues dividing our country currently?

CBB I agree that you haven't challenged Louise's religion, the hope should be here that we all expand our minds and our hearts to include many religions. If Louise chooses not to believe in the resurrection then sobeit, but that decision doesn't have to rest upon attacking the commitment of belief to the resurrection by others does it?

I feel this is a really good discussion. I think we should talk about it further. It was never my intention to cause trouble amongst us. I don't mean to be combative but I want to comment on a couple of things.

Mrs. Red wrote: "It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus...." Mrs., Indigo beliefs have NOTHING to do with religion. Can we agree about that? Indigo is metaphysical. As for Jews, Jesus does not figure into the picture other than that he was a great rabbi.

None wrote: "I have also seen you disagree with more than one or two doctrine the many jewish I do know and do attend temple religiously, subscribe to.  Many of them would disagree with you as well." None, can you tell me more about your Jewish friends? Are they ultra orthodox (Hassidic), are they orthodox, are they conservative, or are they reform? Hassidic is the most religious and reform is the least religious. Each sect holds by different values and according to the Torah, the Hassidic Jews follow the religion more closely than the others. Do your friends drive on Saturday? Do they turn lights on / off from Friday night until Saturday night? Do married women wear a scarf to cover their hair? Do they take birth control pills? Do they go to the Mikvah? Do the women get pregnant year after year in order to create more Jewish children? My Rabbi has 12 children. Is there anything in what I wrote that pertains to your friends?

Yes, I started this thread with a very well known song. None wrote: "Reading this thread began with the lyrics to a song" and "Songs are often bites of history but I do not believe that particular song is one of a prophet, but one person's perspective at a moment in time."  None, you mentioned a prophet. Check out the below links. Bob Dylan is considered a prophet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan http
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowin'_in_the_Wind

Regarding presenting you with official Jewish documentation re the resurrection, I have none. It is my own theory I thought up on my own. It follows Jewish religious law. Bodies may not be entombed. They must be buried in the ground immediately after death.

None, I agree that we truly believe that we can reach spirituality in unison when we stop attacking each other.

Can we please all just try to get along? I am not vested in your personal religion and have no reason to anger you, no reason to say one religion is better than the other. It is what it is.

Can we please get over this discussion?

Excerpt from:"Jewish Virtual Library". Here's the link:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/jerburial.html
I would only note that the life of Jesus on earth was during the second temple period.

The large number of burial sites and tombs in Jerusalem dating from the Second Temple period (second century BCE - first century CE) have been the subject of intensive and continuing investigation. Hundreds of tombs, elaborate and simple, were hewn into the slopes of the hills surrounding the city, mainly on the Mount of Olives and Mount Scopus.

The burial caves were in continuous use for several generations by members of the same family. Simple tombs have a narrow opening, sealed with a square stone. Several dozen particularly large tombs have splendid facades, decorated with columns topped by gables with floral motifs. In primary burial, bodies were placed in niches (kuhim) or on benches (arcosolia) cut into the walls of the burial chambers. The most typical feature of the Jewish tombs of that period are the stone chests with lids (ossuaries). Thousands of these have been found in Jerusalem, some decorated and bearing inscriptions. They attest to the prevalent practice of collecting the bones of the deceased for secondary burial, a custom based on the Jewish belief in the resurrection of the dead. Following are descriptions of some of the more important tombs.

There are three famous tombs in the Kidron Valley:

   1.

      Yad Avshalom (monument to Absalom, traditionally ascribed to the rebellious son of King David), is the most complete funerary monument dating to the Second Temple period. The 20 m.- high monument is composed of a lower rock-cut square structure containing a small burial chamber. Its four outer sides are decorated with Ionic columns supporting a Doric frieze. The upper part of the monument is round and built of stones supporting a concave conical roof. The monument was probably intended to serve as nefesh (memorial) for the adjacent cave of Jehoshaphat (King of Judah, for whom this part of the Kidron Valley is named); it contains eight burial chambers and has an elaborate facade decorated with a relief of vine leaves and bunches of grapes.
   2.

      The Tomb of Zechariah (by tradition the Prophet Zechariah or, by another tradition, the father of John the Baptist) is a monolithic monument cut from the surrounding rock. It is a square structure of 5 x 5 m., decorated with Ionic columns and crowned by a pyramid. It probably served as nefesh for the tomb below it.
   3.

      The Tomb of Benei Hezir is characterized by its free-standing facade with two Doric columns, all cut into the rock. It has a long Hebrew inscription carved on the architrave above the columns, identifying it as the tomb and nefesh of several members of the Hezir family who had served as priests in the Temple and were buried in the rock-hewn tomb below. The name appears in the Priestly Roster of the First Temple: ...the seventeenth to Hezir (1 Chronicles 24:15) and again among the priests serving in the Second Temple. (Nehemiah 10:20)

etc. etc. etc.

Louise-

I fear I don't subscribe to songwriters as prophets but certainly you can, if that is your desire.

You wrote this and I will try my best to respond and I APPRECIATE the questions you are asking also  :wink:

"None wrote: "I have also seen you disagree with more than one or two doctrine the many jewish I do know and do attend temple religiously, subscribe to. Many of them would disagree with you as well." None, can you tell me more about your Jewish friends? Are they ultra orthodox (Hassidic), are they orthodox, are they conservative, or are they reform? Hassidic is the most religious and reform is the least religious. Each sect holds by different values and according to the Torah, the Hassidic Jews follow the religion more closely than the others. Do your friends drive on Saturday? Do they turn lights on / off from Friday night until Saturday night? Do married women wear a scarf to cover their hair? Do they take birth control pills? Do they go to the Mikvah? Do the women get pregnant year after year in order to create more Jewish children? My Rabbi has 12 children. Is there anything in what I wrote that pertains to your friends? "

My parents were a bit more progressive than many in the south, actually we as a family were expected to embrace diversity and the worst punishment we as children ever received, was when we did not. I recall my older sister making a snobby statement to another kid in grammar school once regarding their lifestyle, my mother overheard and she was punished for weeks. I learned quickly from that one example. So hopefully that sets a backdrop for you...

- My first jewish friends were 'conservative' and were dear friends of our entire family, they owned and operated the most upscale department store in our city. I had my first experiences within jewish holidays in their home.

- I attended boarding school and had a roommate who had conservative jewish parents but I would note this roommate as having grown up to become a reformist. We are still close friends and she has married and raised four children in this faith. My exposure was limited by distance with her post our graduation, but we visit every few years plus we email weekly and speak by phone as well. Her decision to move to a more liberal form of the jewish faith was one we have discussed often, it did create some issues with her parents as well, I hopefully was a place she could feel support for that as a friend.

- Post finishing grad school I had a job which required me to both employ and work to support as personnel one Hassidic architect. It was a very enlightening experience, very very talented person.

- Post marriage I had seven close jewish friends/families within our personal social network. All were moderate conservative, were in temple each Saturday and driving to and from but not socially active on Saturday. All had 4 children or more, I have no idea if they took birth control and they did wear scarves to temple but I did not notice that occurring beyond that. We also shared in holiday celebrations such as Hannukah with them, in various ways. I often gave them menorahs that I would find on travels as gifts as opposed to xmas gifts each year, or hannukah items for their children.

- Post reformatting my career in 98 in a different direction, I worked as a business and HR consultant helping clients devise diversity planning and support for diversity. Yes faith designation has been included with this but I would also state I see far more gender and sexual preference discrimination violations/issues than religious.

- I have one good new friend post my divorce who is jewish, she is a reformist and we spend time with her family as well.

I hope that gives you some idea of my experiences to date and yes, I do have theological discussion with these friends at time in an effort toward better understanding, just as I do with catholic or lutheran friends.

Dear Nonesy,

Thank you so much for your detailed response. I'm happy to know you are aware of the various Jewish sects. I now feel certain that you understand Jewish beliefs.

In each religion, I see that people pick and choose what tenets they will hold by. There are many Catholics who take birth control pills, for example.

My orthodox Jewish Rabbi has said it is more important to tear down the fences and allow non orthodox Jews into the fold. He did not discourage his daughter, one of twelve children, from hooking up with a guy with maroon long hair, facial piercings, tattoos, etc. I have gone to many Sabbath dinners at his house and he welcomes everyone.

Thanks again for your response. I appreciate it. I have two more subjects to post.

Mrs.Red wrote: "It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus...."

Mrs., do you mean that after all the years, you have been thinking that Jews believe in Jesus?

None,

If we cannot find middle ground to allow for differing views for of course, we all realize religions are such closely-held beliefs, then what chance is there ever for resolution to the issues dividing our country currently?

You are very insightful.

I am seeing all the seeds of Armageddon on this topic.

CBB wrote: "The Jews were and still are His CHOSEN people!"

Let me tell you a story that I was astonished to hear. It totally blew me away.

When my daughter was 18, she went to Jerusalem to study orthodox religion for several years. She went on a scholarship provided by rich and anonymous Jews in Los Angeles who wanted to bring nonaffiliated young Jews, who showed great promise, back to the fold. She was always lucky and hooked up with high level Rabbinical scholars and their wives.

God did not offer Jews "The Chosen People" status first. He offered it up to many groups. He had one condition. In order to be my chosen people, you have to make peace with your enemies. You cannot rob, rape, pillage or kill your enemies. The various groups rejected the conditions as they made their living by murder and pillaging. Eventually he offered "The Chosen People" to the Jews. They said, "Ok, we would love to be your chosen people. We don't want to kill, pillage, rape or rob."

And that is how they gained the status of being the chosen people.

None,  I am extremely impressed with your knowledge on so many topics and with your education.  You are an extremely intelligent person on may topics.  I feel I can learn so much from you.  

CBB, your knowledge of the Bible far outweighs mine, as I continue in my pursuit of knowledge.  I am a firm and avid believer in my christian faith and nobody will ever sway me.  It is in my heart, thanks to the Holy Spirit. I believe I can learn alot from you as well

With this knowledge on Jewish faith, between all who has posted, I believe there can be a constructive conversation.   Especially with the Christian and Jewish ties that keep us so close.

My original post, was concerning what I feel to be the beginning of the end, per my  Bible.  I do see this as the beginning of the end.  I do not fear that, as I know my fate.  I will be with God thru Jesus Christ as my saviour.  

LV,  please keep in mind, the Christians connection to the Jews and our love and respect for them.   Whether you feel you can rebuke the Jesus as the savior is unimportant.  It's our commonalities that are.  So there is never a need to argue, but understand and respect each other for what each other stands for.  It's IN the Bible!  

I love you all!  God Bless!

Louise-

I am glad you can now see I do respect your religion, somehow I felt you thought I might not, which was never the case. Religion is so interesting, CBB does have a phenomenal grasp of the Bible and christian literature that astounds me - I wish I had more time and had more opportunity to learn at that depth. I also found a true renewal of my faith last year as Rick was dying, it's hard to describe but it truly was my faith that held me back from the precipice of emotional ruin. It also enabled me to find a measure of peace so that I could be there for him, for within the realization he would certainly not survive the cancer, his last months needed to be about him and not about my falling apart over losing him. So my faith was truly tested, even now missing him at a level I cannot describe, my faith remains strong. I don't question God, I know there is a plan.

Dihannah - I am far from the most intelligent trust me, I go to bed each night worrying about what I didn't learn for work in any given day that might be my downfall. I was just fortunate enough to have parents that emphasized and also committed to great educations for their kids, and who also expected us to work early and hard. Work and particularly research is really a respite form me in times when I feel unable to control other forces that impact my life negatively. I also was drawn to working with HR strategies because I so like people and truly do believe they are our greatest resource, creativity, and power.

I think you said it best Dihannah, it is all about embracing our differences and looking for the foundations that do link us together - or even the humanity. I like to think we are a very humane group, losing Natalee brought us all together originally, but it's the humanity that draws us close IMO.

NO LV That isn't at all what I was saying. My point was simply if one is able to believe the metaphysical of Indigo children why not believe in a true miracle.... which is that Jesus was actually the Son who died for us and our sins so that we don't have to.

While I will not continue to discuss this subject, due to the fact that you stated that you knew the truth in one of your earlier posts which I previously quoted... I just have to say that regardless of your beliefs - my truth is that Jesus was the Son and died for me.  CrazyBB stated very eloquently and much more succiently what I needed to say.

How many times do I have to write and say Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah? It is upon that very fact that our religions diverge. We don't believe in the miracle. OK?

Am I going to lose all your goodwill and friendships because I follow Jewish beliefs and not Christian beliefs?

There is freedom of religion, yes or no?

LV,  I don't think anybody is disagreeing with your Jewish beliefs.  I think we all know at least the basic beliefs of Jews and your feelings on Jesus.  Nobody is arguing with you about that.  The only debate I've seen is, the discussion of the various factions of it, as there are in the Christian faith.  

This thread has included alot of facts and versus from the Bible to back up what we were talking about, explaining why we believe what we do.   You just went on the attack immediately for no reason with your comment  "I can easily debunk the resurrection" which was very offensive.  

Nobody said anything negative about the Jewish faith or said they would/could debunk it.     This should be a discussion of faith, not an attack of who's is right or wrong and who can prove what.

I believe that one comment is what set the negative tone to begin with and caused everybody to become defensive.

I know you probably feel alone as the only Jew here, while the rest are Christian, but again, nobody is attacking you or arguing your belief of Jesus.  Your getting defensive for no reason.

I say  this out of Love.  Just back up,  take a deep breath, read and think of what you are really responding to.

Dear Di,

You are entitled to your opinion.

You wrote: LV, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with your Jewish beliefs. I think we all know at least the basic beliefs of Jews and your feelings on Jesus.  Nobody is arguing with you about that.

Di, yes they are. When Mrs.Red writes: "It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus...." I consider that statement to be a huge disagreement with my Jewish beliefs. I am not getting defensive for no reason. The reason is that you all are trying to show me that I should believe in Jesus and the true miracle, etc., when I've told you over and over that Jews do not believe in Jesus. Period. End of story.  

In the calendar of Judaism, we are now in the year 5767. Christianity is in the year 2007. Our civilization been here 3760 years ahead of yours.  What does that mean to you?

You just went on the attack immediately for no reason with your comment "I can easily debunk the resurrection" which was very offensive.


this is the crux of why I felt the need to defend my religion.  I get it that the majority of Jewish people don't believe in Jesus... but your statement about debunking was extremely offensive and of course, put me in a defensive mode.

I should not have made the controversial statement. I am not perfect and often say the wrong thing. However, I learn from each of my mistakes.

I have no problem with saying I'm sorry. To me those two words "I'm sorry" mean I will never again repeat this mistake. Many people say they are sorry just to get out of the conflict. My daughter did this all the time. I asked,"What exactly are you sorry about?" She had no answer, so her apology carried no weight because she was not sincere. She kept doing the same things that she previously apologized for.

So while I have a long list of things I will never do again, unfortunately I keep stumbling upon new ways to accidentally offend people. With every experience, I am growing and learning what to do and what not to do. I never have a problem facing my mistakes, assessing the situation, apologizing and never making that particular mistake again.

Having insomnia with my dogs barking and keeping me awake!

This is a very interesting thread.  I am so impressed with the Bible Scholars here!  WoW, you guys have put some time into all that study.

There is one thing this little Catholic girl can add and that is the concept that faith is a gift from God.  It is given to some and not to others.  If you have received this wonderful and miraculous gift, you are truly blessed.

Traditionally, we Catholics tend to be dreadful Bible Scholars and just cannot compare with many of the Protestants in that area.  I know I sure can't.  But we are very strong in the faith department and it is not the factual nor historical nor the knowledge on which my faith thrives but by the gift of Faith alone.

It is not logical but spiritual. No one can "debunk" my faith because it is just that, faith and not facts.  It is a gift I was given from God and I don't have to know much of anything to adhere to it because it is the beliefs I hold and my trust in The Church.  

Yes, I know of all the evil priest and times The Church has fallen on hard times and corruption and all the rest but it is The Church as it is supposed to be that I love and hold dear and through which my faith is sustained.

I guess it could even be called blind faith but that's OK, too, because it lives and thrives and sustains me.  It is sort of the concept of "blessed are those who have seen and believe but more so those who have not seen and yet believe" in a way.  

For us, either you have Faith or you don't and I am blessed that I do.  And thousands before me have devoted their entire lives to the doctrines and tenets of my Faith and they have covered just about all aspects.  That's good enough for me;  I don't feel the need to personally do it myself, sort of like reinventing the wheel.

Louise, you mention your religion is older but I am not sure that means much to me because humanity unfortunately does not seem to be on any path of progress but aside from technology actually seems to be regressing into a sort of Dark Ages.  Age does not equate wisdom, unfortunately.  That can also be said of all aspects of life and humanity, not just religions.

I am in a minority in this region of the country and so am accustomed to taking a lot of flak for being Catholic in certain circles but have grown a thick skin about it over the years.  

Again, for me it is all about Faith and not knowledge.  Wasn't that what Christ said about the Pharisees?  Teaching the letter of the law and not the spirit of it?

So if you have Faith, consider yourself greatly Blessed of God.  Other than that, I just don't worry about it.  Not my own and not anybody else's because no matter what, I can't give Faith to them, only God does that. Few Catholics are Evangelical or try to convert others.  We are taught to respect the faith of others and leave them in peace.  It was not always so with the olden times of forced conversions and all that but today that is what the position of The Church is on other faiths.  We are to live in peace with them and respect their religion but not proselytize to those of other faiths.  OK for those without a faith but leave those alone who have one.  We do NOT believe we are the only Children of God, either.

 I know basic Biblical concepts and stories taught at Church but have never felt a need to delve into it in a scholarly manner.  I just enjoy the work others have done on my behalf in that regard.  I think this goes all the way back to the time when the masses could not read and had to totally depend on priests because they could read the Scriptures.

Hope this makes more sense than I think it does but it is very late and I should be asleep by now.

.

Dear Anna,

Thanks for your post. I agree this is a valuable thread. By the way, I think your current avatar is most adorable one you've ever had.

A couple of things ... Anna, I had no idea that Catholics are in the minority in Alabama. But I understand what you went through because I was the only Jew in my elementary school (6-12) and took a lot of flack and didn't understand why. I have a thin skin.

When I mentioned in the calendar of Judaism, we are now in the year 5767 and Christianity is in the year 2007, I asked what it means to you. You said my religion is older but you're not sure that means much to you because humanity unfortunately does not seem to be on any path of progress.  This is a little tricky point ... I think the older the civilization, the stronger it is. Not many civilizations have been around for 5767 years. We have not died out, while many others have come into being and eventually were wiped out. Jesus said "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Well, guess what? We are still standing undivided and progressing forward.

You mentioned blind faith. I have asked many an orthodox woman why she was doing "whatever" on the Sabbath.  They said they don't know, they are just doing it because that was what their mothers taught them.  So they had blind faith.  As you said, it is not logical but spiritual.

I'm an analyst and like to know the reasons why people do certain things according to their faith.  Fortunately, my daughter studied under the tutelage of the most holy Rabbis in Jerusalem and she came back home and told me the reasons behind why Jews do what they do.  She knew more than the common orthodox women.

Tell me what Christ said about the Pharisees? I don't know. Teaching the letter of the law and not the spirit of it? I'm very interested in this area if you can explain further.

Thanks, Anna, from Louise

Louise,

Thank you for your understanding of how one can be operating on blind faith.

I can't tell you much about what Jesus had to say about the Pharisees except that the point was they get all caught up in the minutia of the law, the details of what is allowed on the Sabbath for example and forget the point is a day of celebration and thanksgiving.  They were so concerned with what was allowed and what was not and this and that that they totally left out the part I would call blind faith or the purpose of the Sabbath, a day of rest and devotion to God.

I am analytical in other areas of my life but not religion.  There I am all faith and trust that God is going to deal fairly with me and don't worry beyond that.  Religion for me is a solace and a comfort, not a contract or a deal I have some how worked out.  It is just a gift I was given from my Holy Father and for that I am grateful and humble.

I guess the point Jesus was making was that one can have too many details and lose sight of the big picture.  I just enjoy my religion and the comfort it brings me without having to even know all the rules and regs because there are just too many of them not to lose the purpose and big picture.  I don't think Catholics are even encouraged to study the Bible except under the tutilege of a priest or other authorized Catholic person.  We just sort of stay dumb and happy. :D

I just follow the basic tenets of my faith to the best of my ability and then don't worry about it any farther.  If it is the beginning of Armageddon, I don't think we can do much about it as it is going to happen no matter what.  But I know I will be dealt with fairly by my God on an eternal basis and so don't worry about anything religious.

Now political is another matter, haha!

Anna

Anna,

When I hooked back up with orthodox Judaism twenty years ago (through my daughter) they were all caught up in the minutia of the law. They were strict. They had high walls.  I agree they totally lost sight of the purpose of the Sabbath, a day of rest, devotion, celebration and thanksgiving. They were so concerned with what was allowed and what was not that they totally left out the part I would call the purpose of the Sabbath which is a day of rest and devotion to God.

Louise,
Well, that was just an example, the Sabbath  The same applies in many areas of religion where we become so entangled in the details, we forget the big picture.

Christians and Jews are today facing a real challenge and threat from the fundamentalist Muslims and we really need to return to our commonality in the face of this the greatest threat to our religions of our lifetime.  I often fear we lack the will to even fight back we have become so soft as a people.

There are troubling times ahead for us all, I do fear.