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What's the 4th rule?

:::puggy holding up lighter:::

Messed up my last post.

I think this fool from Dan's page was just so excited that he thought he had "inside information" that he couldn't pass up the opportunity.

And here I was just bragging on the fact that there are very few rumors going around town.  Shame on me!

RB, don't you think you should have included at least one paragraph about appropriate posting attire?

I read an unconfirmed rumor on another website that some of the male monkeys are posting while not wearing pants.

OMG...I did it again..the refresh thing while you guys were already in a new post..... :?

They like some "breeze" around their privates. :)

seconding Ting's recommendation re: attire -
I'd hate to have to type with my eyes closed!

I can't read all of these hundreds and hundreds of posts- can't keep up. Can someone summarize what new info has come about tonight on the tv stations?

WHatever happened to the Diaro story about trailing a car of kidnappers?

etc etc.........all I know is PVDS was arrested,,,,,house of VDS is boarded up and deserted (where is Anita?)....Natalee's parents seem to really believe she is alive and being held somewhere..yet at the same time these Texas searchers coming in seem to be for the purpose of recovering bodies.

Does the family REALLY think she is alive by what they know that's not being revealed or is it just hope? I HOPE it will turn out to be true.

no smoking banannas on line

maybe they are just a ploy to get the sid-scan radar gear onto the iosland so it can be used to "take a peek" in certain suspect buildings?

I agree, KKM. And this person supposedly got this information, what? Third hand or fourth hand?

Dammit. I just edited it. :)

Just as long as the monkeys don't start throwing their poop.

Chloe:

Here's the link to the Beth Twitty interview.  If anyone notices a transcript of the interview up on Fox, let me know.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160486,00.html

Those double fans in my Dell make it like a wind tunnel for areodynamic testing.

 :lol:  :lol: Good laugh there!

Maybe it`s an idea to make from every days most important 'rumours'
a list in another topic or so. It`s indeed hard to read it all I have my eyes supported on matchsticks now to keep them open...... :shock:

I "read" the BTH interview tonight differently. I think Beth has been doing this amazing job of holding herself together and being strong and all ... but I think her ability to keep it up is starting (understandably) to crack. Tonight she was not her usual super-in-control self and I think we saw her trying to bolster her hope with her anger and belief that Natalee was kidnapped, is on the island, etc. It was really sad to see this interview though I suspect that it is better for her to let some of the control go so she can work through emotions of this horrible situation. (and I apologize for psychobabbling in advance)

Definatly not, no rule against smoking anything.

   The Riehlworld poster said he heard it from his uncle, who heard it from histailor, who heard it from the mayor of Birmingham.
    And if you believe that, there's a bridge I have for sale...

Ocicat -- thanks, that was the one show I had not tried for the video.

I did watch it. I am baffled.

I think Beth Twitty looks abosolutely exhausted and at her wit's end. I did not hear her say that she had any facts to back up her claim that Natalee was kidnapped -- I heard her say often that she 'felt', 'knew', had 'intuition' but nothing that makes me believe she has real information.

Just my take on things - I hope I am misinterpreting, but to me she just looked like a desperate mother grasping at straws. (I really, really hope I'm wrong.)

Maybe I'm punch drunk, because I'm laughing so hard I can't see. :)

lol... :shock:

I am going back to review it. Why did I think it came through as based on fact? Maybe I am exhausted!

On that note, I'm gonna hit the hay....with visions of breezy privates, monky poop, and bananas dancing in my head...

Nite, Monkeys!

bendex wrote:
THANKS GUYS FOR FILLING ME IN
WOW THIS HEAVY , WE FINALLY HAVE A MOTIVE.


waaaay back at 10:34

Could someone pls explain this??? I had to work late...

thanks a mil....
_____________________
His post came shortly after BHY stated that Nat had been kidnapped....did she say anything about a motive or is bendex hallucinating????

so big brother IS watching!

I can't find it Nancy, not coming up for me anyway? No interview on this url you posted

She says very emphatically that she 'knows' things, but I did not hear it as knowing as in having proof. As I said, just how I interpreted things. She said she 'knew' that first night and the next morning that Joran's dad 'knew' something, and when she met him again she had 'proof' -- but the way she says it does not sound convincing to me that she's speaking about objective truth or knowing - more like her intuition. She says the FBI are keeping her informed, so it's easy to take a leap that they've given her some hard core 'facts', but I can't quite take that leap.

I know..I'm going to bed soon. nite all.

hi dan,
have been keeping up with your blog along the way and have to say thank you so much for all that you are doing to get the word about about natalee holoway. i am a native birminghamian (having grown up in mountain brook), now living in new york city. since it seems as though so few people from birmingham are talking i wanted to make your readers aware of some of the latest buzz going around the "tiny kingdom"...hope some of this helps...

our family has a tailor in birmingham - who is known by nearly everyone who's anyone in birmingham, a sort of "tailor of birmingham." as he dresses most of the affluent residents - from the infamous richard scrushy to the pastor of briarwood church (one of the largest churches in the US). he is the eyes and ears and a great source of information....

my uncle was in the tailor's shop earlier this week and got into a discussion about natalee holloway with in which the tailor told my uncle that the mayor of birmingham, who had also been by the shop earlier, informed him that the holloway family has already paid a ransom to natalee's captors, but has yet to receive her, although they are confident that officials are working to get her back very, very soon. this tailor's brother in law is originally from suriname (where the suspect brothers are from) and says that the island is a notorious port through which women are kidnapped and then shipped off to such far eastern locales as bankok and indonesia. being a native of suriname, he feels quite confident that this is exactly what happened to natalee and she is still alive.

you may already know most of this and i'm sure you have loads of emails to answer, but i thought i'd pass along whatever tips i have. i praise God for people like you who are working so hard to get the truth out. may God continue to bless you in your efforts. congrats on all of your great press thus far and please continue to keep us posted.

Most users ever online was 436 on Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:20 pm

A new record yesterday. Before the CNN run. But right during the PVDS arrest discussion.

Welcome to you all.

Nite FOM, see ya tomorrow :)

I'd really like to stay - but I have to catch a plane in 6 hours and I'm not through packing!

On second thought, the Mayor of Birmingham is no more capable of keeping his mouth shut than is Dee Fine!

(Just thought I would stir the pot with that one.)

May our Texas boys find Natalee tomorrow and let Natalee's family and friends take her home and give her a Christian burial.  I found a poem online and would like to share it with you all.  

Poem by Alicia Tamika Taylor of Australia
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/9601/Poems2.html


Falling from your eyes
Travelling down the side of your cheek
Till it falls from your face and dies

Have you ever tasted teardrops
While they're streaming from your eyes
When someone very close to you
Has gone for just awhile

Have you ever tasted teardrops
Of pain and broken hearts
It all becomes a bit too much
When your little one departs

The sorrow you must be feeling
I wish that I could mend
Or at least if I could give a hand
Or be a listening friend

I don't even know you
But your pain has touched me deep
Your loss of one so close to you
Has made me think and weep

For I have also felt the pain
Of losing one so close to me
And when I hear your tragic loss
I wonder why people can't see?

Why are people so cruel
To take love and break the spell of another
Why can't they see the connection
Between the daughter and her mother

Have you ever tasted teardrops
When they've dried up all away
Its because that someone close to you
Has finally come back to stay

She will be with you always.
Never forget.

Good night all.  Say a prayer for Natalee.

Omnibus, has it been confirmed that the chaperones actually knew Natalee washanging around with someone that week. . .or is that speculation?  I heard it very early on, then never heard anything else about it. I think if true, that would be a very important thing to look into, in light of Mrs. Twitty's saying others are involved.

Night all.

I'm joining the "heading to bed" crew as well ... I think the naked monkeys pushed me over the edge!

It's been good to talk with all of you today

g'nite!

(and Hannie - step away from the coffee and get some sleep - it's really early there!)

Ok-- I took another look. I think what I had originally said I got out of the  video and what I still found credible in reviewing it, is her statement that other people are involved, not just the ones locked up. I thought she was pretty clear that she could not disclose all she knew about that. The kidnapping part seemed more speculative. And you are right-- she looks absolutely exhausted, especially when you compare her to the recent photo they flashed of her at N's graduation.

    Then you'd think he'd have told the press instead of his tailor!!! Does the mayor like tv face time? Seriously, this is too silly for words.

Ok coco, I think I take your advice :wink:

G'nite all see you later..... I`m sure in a couple of hours :oops:

 :wink:

Now, I don't want to piss anyone off, but I haven't seen that woman break since the get go...how can she be strong??? This is what I can't believe! Is it her religious faith that has kept her strong???

I am not a religious person so I can't understand her strength in all of this. She has held up tremendously ever since she arrived on Aruba. Someone help me understand this behaviour by Mrs. Hollaway/Twitty.

I watched her on CNN tonight, with a cameraman in the back of her car...she is driving around the island!!! She dropped a person off/or picked someone up at the airport there. Answered her cell phone, told her TUG, I love you...and all the while she seemed just too much together.

I'm not running her down, but I guess I don't understand the strength and courage she is showing in all of this....

 :shock:

my did we not close early tonite.  makes it hard to read the thoughts from prev string.   i had not heard the story of the chaperones learning natalee was hanging out with a dealer.    as i was saying.  remember the rumor about natalee being seen in the marriott eating with a "very dark guy" (nigerian?) and a "light one" drug dealer?  this was off the radio the same day as the stories of the hysterical woman on the Marriott beach and the hysterical woman in front of HI taken away by two guys.  no, joran and the kalpoes do not meet the dealer profile.  did you see deepak's room?  meticulous.  greta is so nosy.  not a dope smoker either.   just can't get my head around these boys as criminals.  as far as i can go is stupid accident  don't think timeline is right for their drugging her for sexual purposes.  mother says like 11 joran called for a lift.  they had to drive out from downtown to joran's get him and come back to the club.   i bet the what time did you pick up joran vs wht time paul picked up joran is one of the contradictions.  i bet the kalpoes picked up joran later because paul had to go to sleep first bfore they could sneak out.  i imagine the kalpoes would have gone to the bar too.  i  liked the mother's detail of deepak's meticulousness with his car precluded him parking it downtown where it might get scratched and the skirts made it too low to go on the bad roads at the lighhouse   now did joran have to call dad to get home after whatever happened?

I just went there, it's there. But, because Fox has so much crap going on it's hard to find...Go to the far right/top and look for a box that says "FREE VIDEO EXCLUSIVE FROM FOX NEWS" just beneath that heading is a picture of Beth Holloway and a link to the video.

All the mothers look exhausted...but after going and thinkig the wrong path, I got the impression that a: Beth has the power to influence the Arubian LE directly. b: She seem to know some inside information, perhaps powers to be or local people with special information has divulge something that makes her so sure ont certain things she is saying.
c: So far all the suspect she had called for are not in Jail.

Did anyone ever post photos of Lorenzo?  I was following things closely a few days ago, though, for some reason couldn't post again until today.  Remember the discussion about Lorenzo, but never saw photos.

I identify with her presentation. She looks like she is a mother who is absolutely driven to find her daughter and is running herself down in the process. I think I would do the same. I would not be able to stop looking and hunting until I collapsed. Every cell in my body would be directed toward my mission and I would probably not be able to eat or sleep.

yeah, probably

hallucinating.  there is not apparent motive (except sex).  also, where is the kidnapping?

Wonderwoman, maybe it is true. . .after all, Mrs. Twitty today stated that she thinks Natalee is kidnapped, didn't she?  I didn't hear it myself, but plan to watch the H&C rerun.

no lorenzo (yet) but here's a better one of MickeyD's in Oranjstead
http://clark.carthage.edu/food/images/mcdonalds/P1010258.JPG

The detainment of paul van der sloot is headline news on the dutch newspapers they quote judge of suspect suspected of murder

source www.telgraaf.nl
          www.nos.nl

plus, i can easily believe that word can spread in a town like that....B'ham is kind of like its own small island in a way I would reckon

Well, me too Hannie.  I went to get a cup of coffee and when I came back everyone was gone.   Took my coffeebreak in the last thread :?

I have a question for anyone that understands Aruban law.  Now that they have decided to hold PVDS for another 48 hours, can he be interrigated durring this time?  I know they interrigated him for 6 hours first...just wondering what happens the next 48?

Oh I agree it is not objective truth. I was struck by how she said she had "proof" in her meeting with him the night before and, in fact, he was arrested the next day. That was the part I found personally convincing that the Dad is involved.

Ohh, I totally agree, I don't think I would be able to stop looking, searching...BUT...I haven't seen this woman break down ONCE?? How is it that somebody is that strong??? Is it the religious part that keeps her strong? Why isn't it that she has not broken in front of the camera's. Thhis is the part that baffles me. I wouldn't be able to talk to a camera without breaking down.

Good Night. Let Natalee come home today..............

I can't believe I actually watched Larry King tonight. However, this little tid bit came out of the mouth of Mariane Croes with the attorney general's office in Aruba:

CROES: At this point the general description is that they are suspected of being involved in the disappearance of Ms. Holloway. That’s the general description. But because when we arrest somebody, you have to have a reasonable suspicion of specific crimes, so at this point all the suspects are arrested on the first crime of premeditated murder.

KING: So that is — is that a charge?

CROES: At this point it is only a reasonable suspicion. The definite accusation and in American system “charge” will be made when the investigation is finished. And the prosecutor has reviewed all of the evidence pertaining to this investigation

iquitos...thanks for your reply.

The kidnapping was implied/sem-stated by BHT in her interview tonight (with Greta?  not sure).

She mentioned that there would be others arrested/detained and the interviewer said, "Would that be the kidnappers?"  and she said yes.

Also, another rumor is making the rounds that the Ts posted a ransom and that's why BHT has been upbeat yesterday and today.

More speculation...

PS...I enjoy your posts...

Hi all...(been lurking trying to catch up)

I feel like I am on a rollercoaster ride.....I have always had this deep gut feeling that Natalee is alive.  Especially when the Diaria (sp?) guy was on the phone with FOX and said they were following ppl who they felt were involved....then...not another word...Then tonight, the Diaria (not sure if it was the same guy) did not seem as enthusiastic about the outcome...really confused me.

But, then, I saw Beth in her interview....I am not by any means an expert on behavior or body language...but I would like to think that I know a little (Bachelors in Psychology....police officer).  To me, she seemed like she was hoping....speculating...but then, when she started talking about a kidnapping and about Natalee being alive and on the island...she changed...she looked straight into his eyes and said YES, ON THE ISLAND ...(not exact words I'm sure)...with such gumption!  Well, that just did it for me...I even felt my eyes starting to tear up...whew...

Then, when I got online, I went straight to Riehlworldview and saw the post about the ransom....have my doubts about it...but there are so many things that make you wonder.....RUMORS????  We don't know...but it is possible....somebody seeing her being taken away against her will...this ransom story...the diaria story (maybe no mention because it would put Natalee in danger)..numerous other rumors...possibilities.

I really have no point to this post...basically, just sharing my thoughts...

I just really feel that she is alive....I think we will know within the next few days....I have a good feeling about this Equusearch group from Texas!! :)


How do they expect us to figure out the puzzle when they keep changing the picture on the box???  :?

Pre-meditated? So the accidentally died from drugs theory is not their main working theory?

I guess so.  And now look what he's gone and done to both the Mayor and the poor tailor's reputations.

I noticed that too Red, the words PREMEDITATED MURDER stood out to me significantly. Did she let something go there? Or is this just another language barrier that may prove to be nothing?

Why though if Beth thinks this is a kidnapping - would they bother with the Texas gang - they cannot find someone held in a basement for a kidnapping???

Reply to inthepacific -
She is strong because of two things - first her faith in God - second, she is running as hard as she can for her daughter.  Running that hard precludes breaking down.  If you have ever been in a life/death situation, it would  be easier to understand.  When you don't have strength on your own, God strengthens you. . .that is what faith is. . .that is what faith does.  If you have ever worked 100& on a project, it is similar. . .you work and work and work, and nothing else matters.  You just don't look back.

But how long she can go in full speed, I don't know.  It will take a toll on her.  Our prayers help.

Goodnight all. I hope this "premeditated murder" thing is just a passing phase. It is interesting to speculate and try to trail the facts, but the reality is so heartbreaking. I really still hold out for her reunion with her family. I think that's what keeps me on, as unlikely as that is.

Hi Everybody,

I have been lurking for a while but just wanted to throw my thoughts into the mix.

JVDS did take Natalee to the beach, but saw something he wasn't supposed to see.  I'm thinking a drug drop or shippment.  The people that were there, including Steve Crose, know that they cannot let Natalee get away but they can't make the son of a judge disappear so easily.  They tell JVDS to keep his mouth shut or he would face a murder charge, and maybe more, like his family getting hurt.  JVDS emails Deepak to come get him then when he gets home tells Papa.  Papa knows these people because he is a judge and has knowledge of what goes on in the drug trade.  Papa tells JVDS to keep his mouth shut, he would take care of it.  I always thought it was funny that the two security guards were arrested so fast.  Did Papa mis-direct the investigation?  

Since JVDS also told Deepak now they all have to come up with an good story to cover themselves because they know they were the last people to be seen with Natalee.  

Papa is praying that JVDS, Deepak and Stashi can keep their mouths shut, but they are young, so the stories are starting to fray at the edges a little, just the cover story.  I don't think anyone that is currently under arrest is ever going to tell what really happened to Natalee because they have a much bigger fear than being in jail for 20 years.  If they talk, their families will end up like the man that was beheaded.

Remember when Arubagirl said this month was the "crappiest" one she has seen on the island.  Too much violence for this peaceful place, all because JVDS and Natalee  were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I don't think JVDS gave Natalee drugs.  They both might have had a little too much to drink, but I really get the feeling they were just acting like a couple of teenagers who got in over their heads.

For what it's worth...just my 2 cents.

PS.  I'm not a teacher, but the mother of a teacher is almost as good.  (Social Studies, Phys Ed and football/basketball coach)

ORANJESTAD De Nederlandse rechter die op Aruba vastzit wegens de verdwijning van een Amerikaanse scholiere, is nu een verdachte in de zaak. De 53-jarige man wordt beschuldigd van het medeplegen van moord, doodslag of ontvoering met de dood tot gevolg.

De rechter werd gisteren opgepakt. Hij is de vader van de 17-jarige jongen die al in verband met de vermissing van de 18-jarige Natalee Holloway vastzit. Ook drie anderen worden verdacht.

Holloway verdween drie weken geleden na een schoolreisje. De politie denkt dat zij is omgebracht. Tot nu toe is er geen spoor van de scholiere gevonden.  

oranjestad-  the dutch judge who is locked up in aruba because of the disappearance of the american student is now a suspect in the case.  the 53 year old man is accused of acessory to murder, manslaughter, and kidnapping with death as a consequence.  

The judge was picked yesterday.  he is the father of the 17 year old boy who is already sitting fast in connection with the missing (disappearance) of the 18 year natalee holloway.  three others are also suspected.  

Holloway disappeared three weeks ago after (should be on) a school trip.  the police think that she was killed.  up until now there is no trace found of the student.  

here is the link in case soembody (nancy) comes back and says it never existed.  http://www.nos.nl/nos/artikelen/2005/06/art0000B0060700.html

It's the first time she has looked exhausted..and she even said it was the first morning she wasn't sure if she could get out of bed. BUT, she's usually so articulate and and reliable in her comments...that's what made the kidnapping comments so shocking.  She very clearly states the "others" who she suspects will be arrested are also the same people who are keeping her on the island.

One thing I thought of is she's so firm on her belief Natalee's alive, she may have been trapped after she used the word kidnapping...meaning the three took Natalee...so where do you go from there?  If she thinks she's alive and also been taken by several, you gotta go the extra step of saying these people have her on the island alive.

Really don't know...it was a very different Beth Twitty interview IMO.

Thanks for your reply bluebob, as I said, I am not a religious person so this could be, like you said, the strength that keeps her going without breaking down in front of camera's.

I commend her for her strenght, I don't think I could endure it as she has consecutively.

WOW, what a strong human she is.

As the religious folk say...God bless her and pray for a safe return of Natalee.

Being a christian myself, and having experienced much...I can say that God gives so much strength in trying times to those that have faith.  My favorite verse...which I am sure Beth recites often is..."I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength, phil. 4:13".  (not a holy roller...but have experienced this strength myself....felt so weak...but those around me were in awe...like we are of Beth)

inthepacific,

Beth Twitty has impressed most everybody with her strength. She did break down at one or two press conferences. There were some pretty heartbreaking pictures of her a couple of weeks ago. She or her husband has also talked about how they have had plenty of very difficult moments.

This sounds pretty logical to me... hmmm, interesting, so the colombian necktie was a warning to all three and PVS?

Scarlett....another potentially viable scenario!!

Even if it turns out to not be true....would make a good novel.

The part about whay arubagirl says makes it even more compelling.

I think the beheading rumor ended up not being in Aruba.  It was in Aruba, Iraq from what I understand.

scarlet.  thank you for that.  very well developed and even a little plausible as things go here.

Waaah!  Locked out again!  Every time you start a new folder, I'm still 2-3 pages from the end of the last one and trying to reply.  By the time I figure out there is a new folder, you have 3-4 pages already!

Isn't there some other way to warn people--like always on a certain page number, then 30 minutes after that page is finished, the whole folder will be locked?  Grrrr.

Who knows if I had something earth-shattering to post--by the time I get to the new folder and have missed all of the last 10 pages total, from the old one and the new one, then I have no idea what is being discussed or has been discussed.

I've read every page I could tonight and not one person described either of the major interviews in detail, so I could form an opinion about them.  Not everyone has cable -- you can't imagine what it's like to sit here and see everyone posting "I sure like the way Beth looks now" or blah blah blah yada yada and not ONE thing that was actually SAID in the interview.

Waaaaahhh!  Whine, whine.

 

red, see my translation of the dutch press dispatch

The comment by Mariane Croes that the four are being held on suspicion of premeditated murder is very disturbing. And is this new as of tonight? Weren't the original charges "suspicion of murder and suspicion of kidnapping"? The premeditated part makes the situation a lot graver. I wonder what evidence they have for this? How awful.

Isn't there some other way to warn people--like always on a certain page number, then 30 minutes after that page is finished, the whole folder will be locked? Grrrr

That's not a bad idea.  And actually I did give everyone a 5 min heads up before I locked it about an hour ago.   I'll take that one up with the team and see what we can do...

Thanks :)

Even though Beth was very compelling in the interview...someone made the point that Natalee's Dad is far more realistic in noting there's not much of a chance she's alive.  He has spent alot of time with FBI and authorities, he gets the same updates Beth does...and he doesn't sound like there's a kidnapping or that there's much of a chance she's alive.

Hey Nancy_Drew, I just got back and read your posts in the other forum re: the theory.  You make excellent points, and they're understood particularly in light of my own line of work.  As far as facts, go, though,  the only facts I was taking were those given out by Beth Holloway, things she has emphatically stated (or in some cases, what she hasn't said) time and time and time again in every interview.  If you look at what she has said, it's impossible to take it as a whole and make it fit into a rape/murder scenario with Joran, IMO.  Coupled with her attitude, her statements do paint only a few pictures.  That said, I'm not picking out wedding invitations with the idea.

I've been researching the mystery Lorenzo, but there doesn't even seem to be consensus on the correct last name. Would love to have help just pursuing this -- it's no less plausible (or more offensive) than the whole random sex/drug or (God forbid) sold into porn stardom theories.   The individuals from Aruba who stated Paul VdS was arrested an hour before we found out it was true have also left a trail of specifics about the 'fifth suspect' that line-up with the bizarre outburst from the Diario guy on Fox re: car chase and Venezuela, and that post that came out before the story broke in America that Natalee was missing.  Sure it's still rumor and conjection, I know.

But so was the nutty story about a break-in at the Watergate Hotel -- before Woodward and Bernstein got on the story. :)

Well thats it for me to guys

" this subject is getting to death for my sword " shakespear

Did the "C. Necktie" incident really not happen on the island???????????

Ita....I don't have access to cable either, so I go to the riehlworldview.com discussion forum for good recaps everynight....thanks to Allison!

Has anyone heard what "medications" Natalee left in her hotel room?

 :roll:

see, I was sure that Arubagirl verified this also

I didn't watch that interview Nancy, was looking for it and somebody provided a link to it on Fox but I still couldn't find it. I would have liked to watch that. Perhaps this is why she is holding up so well, she knows something we do not. If she thinks Natalee is alive, she may have good reason to believe, that from her sources within this investigation, they have told her they believe she is alive and being held captive somewhere.

it happened on the island as well..too tired to look for link but its in the Arubaam.com archives from a few days ago

thanks tuberide... thought I was losin' my mind for a second there

because they are already in train and this is breaking and still iffy for them  maybe fbi does not want ransom paid and maye they did not have contact for a while  the colombian nappers let you wait and sweat after initial contact teh reappear  sometimes months and natalee could be anywhere by now.  only question is why natalee?   did they mistake her for mcwane's daughter?

Actually, it was reported tonight on another board that Nat's dad said she could be alive "and off the island."  How's that for a consistent theory from the parents?

Good Night All!!!

Sweet Dreams & remember to say your prayers.

God Bless Natalee, her family and her friends.

See y'all tomorrow.

who's mcwane?
maybe she was payment for drugs??

Well, yes, I came upon the 5-minute warning about 30 minutes after you posted it!

I have to agree with Natalee's father too. As sad as it is. The likelihood of her being detained or kidnapped and being alive is hopeful, yet in all probability not likely. :(

:::running through the door:::::

His name was Renee... I can't remember the last name but it was Dutch

renee van dutch

 

might want to search on lorenzo van g somebody gave us the right name here a few days back  if they are here they will give it to you  i will look too

It was in the Aruban paper.  The guys name was Rene Van Heyningen.

renee van den der goldmember (the guy from austin powers)  JK

Renee Van Hannikan

McWane is the owner of the steel company in Birmingham that was found guilty of polluting (I believe) recently.  McWane Steel.  Also owns the private jet that flew the Holloways to Aruba.

What other last name besides "van Rijn" has there been mentioned?  Sheesh, that's the one I've been operating with--not that I'm having much more luck, but I wrote all that many, many posts ago.

hi caligirl, btw

I suggest you not give up on this. I thought I remembered someone in Aruba knowing of this person? Can they help confirm the last name? Are they listed in a directory?  Or, phone book?  Or real estate tax roll?   I'm not sure how pubic records work in Aruba, in this country you can usually find some online for free...at least SS records.  It's pretty easy in this country to do great research on someone online and with phone calls to access public records...not sure there.  Maybe some of our Arubans would  give you info on that.

One thing to remember. Quite often the story you started out with evolves into a completely different story.  Say you can't link up the possible relationship to Paulas..but, in your research you find this guy was interviewed and you find a new piece of evidence on the connections LE is making in solving this case.  THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE....many times research can confirm what you origninally thought..or, it can take you into another interesting direction.

Find out how records work in Aruba.  Are they made as public as they are here?  If not, see if there's an easy way to confirm some of the basic details on this guy. Ask around to see if there's someone down there willing to make a few bucks doing a search for you.  Offer to buy them dinner...

You can PM me or email me...I'm not a wizard but I can help you problem solve if you need it.

Good luck.

Max Arends although there is still arguement of whether that is the corrects name.

(((((((HUGS)))))) Hi  :wink:

where is Joran's younger brother in all of this? Is he still on the island or did they ship him back to Holland/Netherlands?  I never hear anything about him or see him in the media either

Thanks, I'll add that back to my path.  I hit 4-5 different forums each time, but can't keep up with this one--would be nice to have it all in one place, but if wishes were monkeys ....

I needed that tonight (snif sniff) Pistons lost to the Spurs  :(

Well at least Kerin will be happy

partial decapatated man found in cemetary...Rene Van Heyningenm - 29 years old

In a way, I do feel bad for Joran's mom.  She has probably been hit hard with the reality of what her husband is really like and the reality that Joran may not be the golden boy she thought he was.  Reality is easy to deal with one thing at a time, but she's been hit hard by all this too.

Well, maybe she meet a nice guy that doesn't lie and sweat so much and run like a girl....(sorry, couldn't resist)

{{{{CALI}}}}}}
::::yawn:::::

Hey Ya'll!!!  :D

Night all!

Fingers crossed and prayers that we get some good news tomorrow.

I remember when this name first came up.  Wasn't there a differnet spelling of the name?  Was it van Geijn  or something similar?

Phew! *wipes brow* all caught up!

I've also seen Van Gijn mentioned.

Hi Kerin

Hi Kerin (did you get my PM from this morning?)


good night Scarlett....take care

Interesting, I will add that to the main page tomorrow. Here is a link to the trascript from Larry King, go down to middle of the page after THE BREAK,

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/23/lkl.01.html

Hey Kerin!!!!!!! Man woman I hope you were sleeping! lmao

I'm not sure why you are pushing forum members to insert themselves into an ongoing criminal investigation ... not good, not good at all!  We should never do anything invasive or intrusive in trying to figure out how the puzzle pieces fit!  Aaaggh!  Stumbling onto something that tips off a bad guy is not right!  

Helping LE is fine, and I send info in all the time, but they know more than we do!  I just try to be an extra pair of eyes and an extra brain for them, not arms and legs!  Nooooo!  This is *just* a public forum--we don't have the backing of a major media outlet, who would have the insurance to cover the bad things that could happen with Joe Citizen out there gumshoeing or possibly libeling or slandering someone.  Uh-uh!

Just thought I would share an interesting beggining to now piece...

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5familysearch19w.htm

Kerin, is that the natural color of your eyes or do you wear colored contacts?  If natural, nice.

aia called him "Van Geijn"

Interesting.. I learned from that link I posted that Joran plays poker...

so he's good at bluffin!  :wink:  Sorry I had to say it! jk lol

Hi 6 prs....(sorry, I am more of a football fan) :-)

Waiting, yes I did get your PM but I have been on the road all day. Give me awhile (or maybe Cali has something?)

try van gijn  i found that in a back post  not much on google other than car rental agency  will check phone book

Hope he gets the royal flush, though :lol:

I think I posted the link for you, or someone.

Go to the link and look at the top right...there's a heading that says something like "FREE FOX VIDEOS"  below it is a picture of Beth and a link to the video.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160486,00.html

You won't see the box unless your screen is open all the way. I just noticed my bookmarks are open now and I had to scroll to the right to see the box.

He seems to be beating the interrogators. I guess playing poker teaches some usefull skills... :roll:

dl3, I do wear contacts but they are clear. Thanks for the comment.  :)

Cali, I got 2 hours sleep last night and then made the long drive to Corpus Christi, fried in the sun all day, drove back and now....here I am!!

Problem there is Joran would have had to awaken his father to "pick him up" and that would have clearly blown the family's curfew...remember, he was sneaking out of the house.  

...and then if he was totally out of control, blowing it with his father wouldn't have been a problem for Joran.

With the interview with Larry King Live, the spokes person for attourney general in aruba, it seems the word for PVDS arrest is....REASONABLE SUSPICION OF PRE-MEDITATED MURDER,(the same as the other 4 arrested)...like Red has noted on the main page.

Interesting, very interesting.

I apologize if this is off topic, but did any of you see the segment on Nancy Grace tonight where they talked about the released transcript of Couey's confession in the Jessica Lunsford case?

http://home.planet.nl/~swart825/Heredis/heredis/22-10-2004.ged

This is the only link I could find that turned up a René van Heyningen.  Unfortunately it is in Dutch, and I only read English and Spanish, tho my Papiwhatever is getting better.

Hmmm. Could be that they have reasonable suspicion of premeditated murder, manslaughter, or the equivalent thereof, kidnapping, etc. As I recall, they seem to group the possibilities together when they make arrests. Not sure it means they necessarily think that it was a premeditated murder. Or am I wrong this time?

Every single media article about this death spelled the man's name very differently - Hannikin, Hanegem, Hannegem, Heynigen, many more.

None of those appear in the Aruba white pages, but this name does (several people by this name), and this spelling was never reported!  Go figure!

Heijningen

Sooo out of no where..mainly because I was looking on the ISA site for names...

Sad, Joran was honor roll as well his brother. How could they be avid partiers and keep those grades?

Random thought.. sorry, just makes me wonder how this all got to this point.

Well, the only way it could be pre-meditated is what??????  What would be the scenario that would make it pre-meditated??????

Wake me up when it is over.

I find the whole picture ugly and getting uglier.

First American teens are sent to an island where the prime reason for going is gambling, booze and the ready availability of drugs and prostitutes, oh yes and a nice beach and reasonable rooms are thrown in to cover the primary motive.

Then Natalee, who is not prepared to be on her own, having been under the thumb of a domineering mother for 18 years, is suddenly set free and makes some really bad decisions.

Then Joran who has had too little direction in life and may have serious problems with controlling his own behavior crosses paths with easy prey, and who knows what happened.

Throw in an incompetent Aruban beauracy and a legal system straight out of the dark ages, not to mention a predatory US press pressuring for quick results, and you have this circus that we all watch, somewhat like the great Roman circuses, complete with Christians and lions.  

And this is our entertainment, we voyuers of violence and depravity. What will be the next big mess that fixates us?

Also listed as RENEE VAN HANEGEM

Thanks Kerin.

Cali, do you happen to have a link to Max Arends?

Mom's a teach at ISA?  Sorry, couldn't resist a low blow  :P

It was corrected by one of the posters from Aruba to be "van gijn."  But nobody confirmed.

I have been wondering the same thing since Red posted this info.

His mom said that he didn't want to get out of bed in the morning. I guess if you're out in the casinos till 3:00am, yeah it might be hard to wake-up! :lol:

no van rijn in aruba phone book
only van gijn is auto rental agency,  no vw dealer by that name, no residence

Sorry Nancy, still not finding it on that page. At the top right of that page is offered "videos" I clicked on that but not interview with beth there. Who was interviewing her?

http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=PZBg5CRvFQPGDGKF

Yeah but honor roll??? lol

prostitutes?

domineering mother?

voyeurs of violence and depravity?

Ok, Neil. We'll wake you up when it's over. Bye!

Makes no sense at all. Where are the witnesses? Where is the physical evidence. The Aruban system is completely ridiculous.

They sexually assaulted her and were afraid that she might tell, then thought they had to get rid of her(killed her)?

Or, they knowingly gave her drugs to rape her and they killed her by overdose?

Try this link (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player05.html?062305/hc_holloway_062305&Hannity_Colmes&Natalee%26%2339%3Bs%20Mom%20&acc&Hannity%26Colmes&-1&new) and see if it works.

We haven't heard much about the texas equusearch group today.  Someone (who was near Houston I believe) posted last night that some members were shown live on local tv flying out.  Also, if they are/were having trouble getting their dogs down there can we assume they won't be taking their horses?

It means they dont have anything at all, its like hey Joran we arrested your dad and if you don't start confessing were gonna arrest your mom too. :shock:

That second scenario wouldn't be murder 1. But about the most heinous example of 2nd degree I can think of. (If this had happened in the states, that is).

Yes, very disturbing details  :cry:

Investigative reporters do it everyday...Bloggers do it everyday. Some of the best research and political breaking news stories in recent months have come from investigative bloggers.  Media, journalists, independent reporters, etc. are all meant to be the watchdog of government, that includes LE...if someone here has a story, they should use their freedom of speech and power of the pen to research it and write it.  So what if it doesn't break the case.  Or, what if their research is truly a help to investigators?

The wave of blogging and journalism is independent news.

I do agree LE probably knows 10 times what we know...they're way ahead of anything we think are huge scoops...but, sometimes they're not...the benefit of a forum like this is sometimes individuals feel more comfortable coming here with info, they aren't ready to share with authorities. I'm not saying it's right...but, it's true.

Keep on doing your research!  In the least you could have yourself a nice story to publish on Scared Monkeys or Dan's site.

Thanks iquitos.

good point though

inspector, afraid that you might be right.

I can see pre-meditated in the first scenario, but in the second. . .that would be stretching it.  But legal terms there may include different things than here.

Maybe playing blackjack helped him in math! :lol:

good post  aunt twitty said today natalee has been in the family since 7 years.  holloway has a 7 year old by his new wife.  when did they jug/beth divorce?  did natalee stay with mom or dad?  can you imagine laid back patient and considerate holloway married to beth?

This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.

I thought that words would fail the talking heads and experts she trotted out. It seemed that it almost did at a couple of points, but they went ahead and talked anyway.

How can you even find words to describe this, without making a mockery of it? This is the worst case like this I've ever heard of.

It almost makes we want to go into LE/criminal prosecution as a career.

They both seem married to people that fit them well now, though.

THANK YOU CALI!!  I knew one of you would have it!!

The Aruban bloggers arubagirl and americaninaruba seemed to know who this guy is. arubagirl spelled it Van Rijn. americaninaruba spelled it Van Geijn. Perhaps if you PM those bloggers they can help you. :roll:

In order for it to be premeditated, would they not have to prove that they knowingly gave her so much of the drug that it would be lethal?

"Gijn" doesn't even sound like "Rijn," except they "rhyme" like "Rhine," lol.  But there IS a lady named "van Rijn" listed in Aruba, which fits with the name of a widow, an older one who still has a land line with a phone listing.  

I can understand all the youngers being hard-to-find because of their cell phones, but that one fit and I liked the irony of a possible earlier liaison of Paulus's in Holland being later married to a distant offspring of Rembrandt--then Paulus marrying an art teacher.  It was just so symmetrical!

Bah.  Pish tosh.

You have to keep in mind the Dutch system. Seems like they can arrest anyone for anything with now evidence whatsoever. Remember the 2 security guards?

Lorenzo van Rijn must not be a VDS because he does not have a tickle site.

LOL !!

I don't think that's being fair to her. You're seeing her when her child has disappeared without a trace. She's had to fight tooth and nail to get any answers, any action at all. Of course she seems a little domineering right now. I can only hope that I would be that domineering in such a situation. We don't know what she was like day to day.

Hannity and Colmes is on again...for anyone who missed Beth's interview the first time around.

Yeah, I probably didn't explain myself properly. I'm starting to get bleary eyed (and bleary brained?)  from all this reading.

If JVDS's intention all along was to administer roofies to have his way (that was the night's plan), and NH died from an adverse reaction (she was tiny at 5'3" and 110 lbs, and we don't know how much or how long she had been drinking), and after this happening, he disposed of the body...

...I'm by no means a lawyer or any kind of legal/criminal expert, but I'd say this case would be tried as 1st degree, no?

This theory is still a good one and premeditation might fit here if Joran took her to the beach as a "payment" to drug dealers that were already there... or maybe Steve Croes was the guy who needed her as payment, so Joran was helping his friend out, offered Natalee, since he apparantly didn't win enough at blackjack that night...

I have had to fight really hard in life/death situations for loved ones.  Even the meekest person will fight like a mother bear for someone she loves.  I really get the impression that Beth is a good mother to Natalee and her determination now shouldn't be taken as an overbearing mother in normal times.

That was me.  We didn't hear a word about them today, which means to me that Tim & the skeleton crew (sorry--I mean the first 3 that went with him) hit the ground running and were getting the lay of the land and having meetings all over the island to get the logistics in place.  Didn't bother me that there wasn't coverage, even here in their hometown.

I did learn that Tim and the first group left around 7PM last night, not 10PM like I thought, so they got a really good head start on the day today.  The rest won't be there until Friday and I'm not certain if the dogs are with Tim or if they're going in the Friday group.  (No, no horses!)  I did learn that they'll have divers, too, which I wasn't certain about.  It's harder to get them out for long trips. (Expensive down time for them, since they're volunteers.)

Today (Thursday) we should hear something about what they're up to.

Oh my! I just realized that monkey mural is at C'nC's!  I guess it's fitting that the Scared Monkeys would get to the bottom of this...but that's just eerie.

LOL. Add to that the fact that every search engine in which you place the name comes up with Return of the Prodigal Son and there's a certain poetry at work.

Did you notice the monkey's hand looking to try to grab Joran? lol

LOL Saw that last night...but didn't realize it was at C'nC's.  So much is missed when one is speed reading :)

Itawamba, thanks for the update on the texas equusearch team.

Accidental death with improper disposal of corpse?

Yeah, and didja notice Urine doing the Bunny Hop?  Hop, hop, hop?

Here's a late-night-outside-the-box thought....

Does Joran's cell phone have a built-in camera?

I don't think that administering rohypnol is legal. Can't it be likened to administering poison?  In both cases, you don't know what dosage can kill.  Esp. the case when mixed with alcohol.

In any case, I think we're trying to make the distinction between premeditated and not?

Holy shit, this sheds a new light on this investigation, watching this video with Beth and what she has to say.

Points she mentioned in this interview that we don't know about. Inside information between the Hollaways and the Van der Sloots...

1. More people have to be questioned and arrested

2. More people involved. FBI, local authorities know who they are.

3. My daughter has been "kidnapped" and the 3 individuals in custody know what happened.

4. Beth believes she is alive.

5. She believes she is on the island being held

6. The interview with her and Van der sloots(Mr.) she knows he knows something and this was confirmed when she was at his home.

7. This was not a contencious meeting Beth says

8. Beth has confirmation now that he has some information.(Mr. VDS)

9. The LE and investigative team are NOT keeping them in the dark.

Took this out of the Bible: (Hosea 13:8 )

I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

Loose translation: Nobody kicks a** like a mother who has her cub stolen!

That's why I stated 'Accidental" death, as for premeditated.  I highly doubt it.

Who knows Scott but the police took that out of his house too.

Well, if he did give her a roofie, you would think they could at least charge him with practicing medicine without a license....
Why would he stoop to that though?
I'm sure there are plenty of horny tourists to go around there.  I'm sure he could have found a "willing" one.

Rijn Deborah T VanFahrenheitstraat 19..............................582-1391

Yes, there is a Deborah vR on Fahrenheit Street.



(I figured that means she is HOT, HOT, HOT, right?)  (Oops, that might be Lorenzo's mother we're talking about.)

that's what i can't figure out unless they were looking for some serial group activity  can't get my head around it.

I wouldn't call a death from rohypnol 'accidental' by any means.

In any case, regarding the premeditated murder possibility, I think the Aruban authorities have a PR disaster on their hands, they will lean towards the harshest charge. Just my opinion.

What I don't get, is it was said by Natalee's friend's she introduced herself to Joran. So it's not like he persued her, stalked her, plotted something etc.

I find that odd.

We posted at the same time.  We're not supposed to publish individuals' home phone numbers.

The Dark side has some interesting things to say about the case. There are about 3 articles that I've read. They are more reflective than factual reporting but the man has an excellent writing style.

Todays blog is about Carlos n. Charlies. this is the link

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_the_vanishing_of_natalee_holloway.html

Fahrenheit Street?  Is Michael Moore gonna answer?

That's where I saw the monkey! :)

 

if they can stretch this thing out for 160 days beth and jug may tire and need to get back to work.  then they can have a prolonged trail or even drop charges.  i agree with a guy from larry king and a poster here that they may be grasping at straws and desperate for somebody to confess even though they might not have the right guy/s

So, how do you think the elder VDS fit into this equation?   They are all being held under premeditation theory.

If they (not sure who 'they' are yet) get tried as a group, and VDS the elder helped dispose of the body, that's where I imagine he would fit in.

They should just put the whole island under arrest, save a lot of time.
I have tremendous admiration for Beth Twitty, she did look very tired tonight. I am sure when she is alone at night with her husband is when she falls apart. My prayers are with her that God continues to give her the stength that she will need to see this to the end. I hope Natalee is found soon.

::::listening to crickets:::::

Hellooooo? lol

Juvenal,

Actually I think it is fair.  When people are under stress they show themselves the most because they lack the energy to put on a front.

I do fee badly for the pain all these people feel.  That does not mean that I should not observe and reach conclusions about them.  Plenty of people have commented on positive things about Beth so it seems fair to observe the opposite.

You can hardly fail to notice that Beth is in charge of the Twitty family.  She is the one out there in front.  One facit of her personality is the "screamer".  The one that makes irrational threatening demands like, "I want my daughter and I want her now."  "I am not leaving this island without my daughter."  That may be what she wants but that is hardly going to force someone to give her Natalee.   Then there is the overcontrolled sweet Beth where you can see that every ounce of her energy is used to come across as nice and sweet southern lady, while at the same time she looks like she will explode any minute.  You can see this control in the tension in her lips.

If she is dealing with adults like she does, can you imagine how she treats her own children in the privacy of her home.  I think she is boss and she dominates her children.  In fact at one time in this saga, my wife and I were talking about the probable Beth/Natalee relationship and we both said that if it wasn't clear that Natalee had her bags packed and was ready to return home, that she probably ran away to escape her mom.

If you let a child of 2 yrs cross a busy street by themselves you are neglegent. If you insist in not letting a 16 yr. old cross the street by themselves you have crippled them and when the leave home they will have real trouble crossing the street by themselves.  Overcontrol deprives a child of learning to control themselves so when they are on their own they have not had practice in controlling their own behavior.  Many 18 year olds leave home and go wild because have never learned self control (there parents never let them learn).  This is why, along with reports of Natalee's behavior, that I think that Beth ruled the house.

All this does not mean squat, except that I think it illuminates why Natalee might have made a bad judgement.

My boys, at that age would have went to bed at 11:00 and I still had a hard time getting them up in the morning. They are growing, they are tired, and 7:00 a.m. is hard thing to wake up to for teenagers. Their bodies are changing, going through hormonal changes.

It has been brought up recently that kids should maybe start their school day later because of this. It isn't normal to the changing hormones as teenagers.

I somewhat agree with that.

Aha!  You found it using their system of alphabetizing.

I'm glad it's late.  It'd be a shame to get that "don't publish phone numbers & addresses" fight going again.  Just kidding.  

This Lorenzo thing has had me crazy for days.  I can usually find SOMETHING.  Not on this one, no matter what spelling of the name...

Do we have a street for the "spray painted house" mentioned earlier?

I think it's safe to say that you're not a mom.

Beth is behaving like most mothers with a missing child would be behaving. Except, she has held up exceptionally well under these surreal circumstances.
 

I knew someone was looking for this information, but couldn't remember who.   It's late and I my brain has had it. .
Good night all.

Maybe PVDS requested that Joran bring someone home for him, since mom's gone and all ....."I won't tell if you won't"

I was disturbed that the gory details had to be brought forward on national television. I was sickened by the fact that this guy admitted to it, but then....they have to spill the gory details publicly??

What is wrong with our world today and the media?

It's sick. Too much information, after the fact.

If I am not mistaken, that is Joran's address

I have a tough time believing that even Joran would bring home a female for his dad to cheat on his mom with.

was reading that article you posted.....
 :shock:

You're right Cali, it seems to me this was just an innocent meeting between the 2 of them. This is what I can't get my head around, as far as pre-meditated. If anything, from what I can see here, she was the one to come onto Joran with conversation. Wasn't like he was seeking her out or anything.

Nah, that would be Montanja street, WW ;)

veery insightful niel.  bravo

It's not really unusual for someone to keep there composure under undue stress and not be that emotional.  I call it automatic pilot, you do what needs to be done, for your own sanity and the people around you.  You or I as the case was break down later.  But you do what you feel you need to do at that time.  Alot of people don't understand that and view it in a negative way, everybody handles things in there own way, I'm reserved and that's how I handle things , I understand what she's doing and i am amazed at her strength.

Gotta jump back in for a minute. Reading and catching up w/o posting is causing sensory overload. So much to absorb!

There is NO WAY the mayor of Birmingham has a shred of inside info. Bernard Kincaid is a self-absorbed crackpot and there is not a chance in the world that anyone close to the Twitty/Holloway family would divulge such a thing to him. A LOT more than Red Mountain separates B'ham city proper and Mountain Brook, as you can well imagine. Spencer Bachus and Jeff Sessions have all the scoops, and have from the beginning. Bear in mind also that Condoleeza Rice is originally from Birmingham hint hint.

There is an angle which has gone unexplored here... that is possible connections between PVDS and the underworld, both in the Caribbean and in Europe.

One statement tonight stood out: Marianne Croes said that PVDS is a suspect in the DISAPPEARANCE, not JUST a coverup, and she made that quite clear and made the DISTINCTION quite clear, not like her usual we-cannot-disclose-that-info style.

For all we know Natalee could as easily be in Amsterdam as in Venezuela.
Just somethin' to think on, guys.

Thanks for the link.  I just skimmed the article--no time for *real* reading these days!  I was hoping it was someone else's take on Carlos & Charlie's that is like mine -- and Greta Van Susteren's (who was scared to death of the place).

Egad!  I hate those places with a passion.  Senor Frog's is only a little bit better, by a micromillimeter.

I had to travel all over Mexico for work and was forced to go to every C&C's along all of the Mexican coasts and I could not believe the things I saw, heard, had done to me, on and on.  For me, the very worst was that I had to *constantly* fight off (and I mean *fight*, like slapping hands and pushing away roughly) these idiot men waiters or whatever they were that INSISTED on trying to spray liquor into my mouth out of wineskins and water guns and all kinds of crap like that.

I don't drink alcohol and I didn't want *anything* near me like that.  A simple "no!," with a little Church Lady finger-wag, which works with the vendors in the mercados who want "demaciado" -- too much -- for their wares, didn't faze these guys.  They thought it was a coy little challenge to make them TRY harder to pour booze down my throat.

I finally got one of my Mexican clients to tell me how to say "I am an alcoholic" in Spanish, so maybe they would realize I was serious as hell!  You know, like I'm frigging ALLERGIC to the crap?  Noppppppeeee.  "Yo soy alcoholico" to them meant "I love booze and I want more!"  I could've sued the pants off of every one of those places if it happened in the US.  It was beyond contemptible, to me.

And that is just ONE thing I hated about them.  The sex stuff is a whole 'nuther story.  Gad, I HATE Carlos & Charlie's!!

I never did feel any energy from either the lighthouse OR the beach near the hotels.  I thought that Joran's apartment might have some activity and when I read that Natalee's mother felt her daughter's energy there I seconded it.

I think she is alive and well although not a runaway or anything like that.

I like the prosecutor's spokesperson Mariane Croes.  She's doing a good job.  Please don't just slam people for no reason.

riehl's latest take

Thursday, June 23, 2005

Two Observations

One is a personal observation I am only posting after seeing the interview with Mrs. Kalpoe tonight on Fox. I can remember when this all started and I was reviewing the boy's websites.

Just as Joran's website was noteworthy for a significant number of pictures from partying and the clubs, casinos, etc. .. the site of Satish was the opposite.

I remember pictures from field trips, archeological sites, art and so forth - I was genuinely struck by the difference in the two boys. That doesn't mean anything as far as guilt, or innocence, but it was a genuine observation.

The second observation will sound like gossip, which basically, it is - please take that into account. If it didn't come through an extremely reliable source on the island, I would not mention it at all.

In talking with an adult professional from Aruba who knew Joran, the individual stated that Joran often bragged to him of his many "sexual conquests" resulting from the use of an illicit substance slipped into a woman's drink and the Aruban individual suggested Joran was a "psychopath."

I doubt that the source of these statements is a certified psychologist, but if he is repeating these types of statements to individuals in and around the investigation, it will likely come out and be proven or disproven in any potential trial. And noone should be considered guilty of anything without one.

With all respect, Neil, I don't think this illuminates anything. Beth Twitty is not in a normal situation right now. You can't even compare the way she is now with how she would be day to day.

If you have your child disappear, with all these swirling rumors about what might have happened to her, there's something wrong with you if you can't get motivated to start demanding some answers.

And for you to utter platitudes about letting kids grow up when you have absolutely no knowledge about Natalee's relationship with her mom is the emptiest speculation I've seen in this forum.

BTW, I did find a 'Van Gijn' in the phonebook, but first name is Johannes.

Not posting the number - most likely unrelated anyway.

On the replay of Hannity & Colmes on Fox right now, Beth mentioned that she reads every card, letter, and email she gets.  Anyone know the proper email addr or snail mail addr to send her our thoughts/prayers?

I would assume...

Holiday Inn SunSpree Resort
ARUBA-BEACH RESORT & CASINO
J. E. IRAUSQUIN BLVD #230
ARUBA, ***
ARUBA
Tel: 297-58-63600
Fax: 297-58-65165
Email: reservations@sunspree-aruba.com

well, folks, time for bed
I'm getting scoliosis and carpal eyeball
G'nite!

thanks for the darkside piece.

I don't "get" that, either.  But it was just one girl's comment--and maybe she has a different perspective than some of the other friends.  Like, looking at it with a negative spin on it.  I can't figure out why others said Nat had been with *with* or seen with Joran several days before that--and this girl comes along with a *stranger* scenario on the last night.

And that *lo and behold* is the same as the alleged Deepak *version*.  Huh?  How come so many people who were there to have their own fun happened to even notice this "first meeting" of Natalee with Urine?

That doesn't make sense, even in historical perspective of what we need to examine NOW, with Natalee missing.

Juvenal has some good points here folks, I have 2 sons, yes, Beth seems to be in control of her family, so much so, perhaps she never gave Nat some free reigns at her age.

Anyone knows that today, we have to let our kids be themselves and have some fun, but that doesn't go without teaching them the dangers. Someone once told me, there comes a time that you have to stop parenting and start being a coach(disconnect yourself as the parent) By this I mean, start LISTENING to your young adults, rather than demanding, demanding, and suffocating them with...do this, don't do that!

More that that, she insisted on buying him a drink at the bar. When he won some money for her.

That's Southern Hospitality

Well Lorenzo supossedly owned a speed boat.. they searched boats

Here the news article (not in english but has pictures of them searching)

http://img75.echo.cx/img75/5898/200506141120335bi.jpg

If you read Dan Rheil's latest (posted a few posts above), and it is to be believed, the whole scenario makes sense.

The unfortunate part is that Natalee may not have been targetted per se, it could have been any other girl, but she just happened to be the opportune one.

Wondering what kind of jobs some of y'all have in order to have time to find all these pics and info on the internet?  LOL.  Glad you have the time though!

Iquitos, please make clear whether this whole thing is quoted from Dan's site or is from your own contact.

Wow, that's horrible.  If there is an adult professional (and most professionals are adults) who believed that Joran was raping and incapacitating multiple victims, then this guy is effectively responsible for not stopping this by not acting.  It was irresponsible to say the least if he believed that and didn't go to the police.  It makes you wonder about the truth of a statement like that.  

Now, I am not taking sides here.  I want Natalee back and anyone responsible prosecuted.  I was thinking earlier that Joran was innocent.  I still do but now it looks bad.  

Joran's internet profiles could support the item posted by Iquitos.  He was pretending to be eighteen and in college.  That can only be for the consumption of tourist females because everyone on an island that size would have known how old he was.  He must have been trying to make contact with them.  Now what would that appeal have been?  Women who are in town for a short while.  They might be sought out for casual sex, or because it would be difficult for them to prosecute him.   Again, I hope that item isn't true and I'm just speculating.  There are obviously less sinister explanations for what he was up to.  

Just more reasons to keep an eye on your teenage boys.  If he didn't have that separate apartment it would have been better.  My friend had a teenage boy in a set up like that and something else bad happened.

His mother was saying she could see his computer stuff.  Did she know about him lying about his age?  I doubt it.

Actually, pacific, that was neil who said that. I was arguing with him.

Nobody's saying that the platitude that "you have to let kids grow up," is wrong. It's clearly right.

Neil is saying that he can tell, apparently by looking at her facial expressions on TV, that he thinks Beth H-T is a "domineering mother." That's what I'm taking issue with. He has no idea what their homelife is like.

In my opinion, there is something wrong with a mother who, under these circumstances, doesn't take on some of the characteristics of an "angry bear" who has been robbed of her cubs! It is natural--and proper--behavior.

The whole content of iquitos' post is from Dan Rheil's latest post on his Rheil World View blog: http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/

If Joran and Natalee had contact with each other before her arrival in Aruba could that be part of the "premeditated" charges?

Com'n now, don't call the kettle black. You are in a forum that is in search of a missing girl, cut the crap. Why would you be bothered to worry about all the pics and info on here anyway?

MAYBE he doesnt live on Aruba. Another island or nearby mainland. ?

LMAO I work for an online extention campus for a university  :wink: So I have to be on the internet! lol

THIS IS ALL FROM DAN, NOT ME

What can you tell me about this Lorenzo... so I can do some research on him. All I know is that he suppose to a son to Paulus Van Der Sloot.

Ohh, i agree, I know I would be acting like an angry bear. I find that Beth is a domineering mother, no doubt in my mind, her strength through this has proved just that.

My only perception is that she didn't educate her daughter leaving her country and going into a foreign country and the dangers involved.

We know that Natalee left with somewhat strangers, we know that her girlfriends would have never allowed it, had they been with her at the close of the night.

LORENZO IS KNOWN TO LIVE ON ARUBA. not yelling, for emphasis only

Ohh, i agree, I know I would be acting like an angry bear. I find that Beth is a domineering mother, no doubt in my mind, her strength through this has proved just that.

My only perception is that she didn't educate her daughter leaving her country and going into a foreign country and the dangers involved.

We know that Natalee left with somewhat strangers, we know that her girlfriends would have never allowed it, had they been with her at the close of the night.

Joran HAD to have had his own computer in that apartment. I can't imagine that he could have posted the stuff he put on those sites with Momma looking over his shoulder. I mean get real, it is UNHEARD OF for a teenager his age to not have a PC. Why didn't the mother mention that? Deepak apparently had his own PC.

BTW, anyone notice that Kalpoe home? It was more upscale than the VDS home! That interior was like it was just remodeled.

Are we looking at the same house? lol

Hey everbody!  I just got here and havent looked back at what you refer to (re: Dan )but I've heard too much about Urine bein round a couple days, her two friends just didn't see him around to think otherwise.  I think they relate from their perspective which may be off!

What else been goin on?

There is another way it's possible as far as Natalee and Joran meeting by chance at the casino.  Since he's a fixture in there, he's more apt to notice whatever is "out of place" than someone who is just taking it all in for the first time.

So, he was on a winning streak and that's what attracted Natalee, supposedly, right?  I don't know about you, but I've never noticed any other casino players on a hot streak anyplace other than maybe the roulette tables or certain blackjack tables.  And of course, the big slots.

But what attracts the attention?  Other people standing around the player, sort of cheering, or gathering in a small crowd to watch in awe and wonder.  Winners are heroes!

So, what if Joran hadn't been winning that night?  Is he just such a "lucky duck" that he always seems to come out on top in everything he does--school grades, sports, Texas Hold 'em Poker, cards?  How in the world does that happen?  Very few people can pull off continual success.

Still thinking about this...more in a minute...

Please someone tell me about this Lorenzo so that I can do some research on him. Do you have his last name - what infor do you have on him?

I did see when they took Joran's computer out and put it in the trunk
of some car seized as evidence..
looked like a custom pc silver with
looked like exhaust pipes inside
kinda cool
I sure he spared no expense when he built it..

have you folks seen all the spectacular native chicks on the island?  plus, prostitution is legal.  why chase tourists except that it is probably the local male sport and it keeps the local girls prisitne for marriage.  tourists as an outlet.  can't imagine it applies to joran.

a tourist is somehow dehumanized in the eyes of the local: here today, gone tomorrow, sometimes looking for trouble, no consequences, variety, lucrative, generous, rich, exotic ...  why drug them?

Thanks for the clarification, Iquitos and GetaGrip

Gee, I pride myself on reading faces.  I've hitchhiked (successfully) and been in a variety of situations but I didn't see that darkness in the male Van Der Sloot's faces.

Not saying what happened, or what didn't happen, just different impressions.

RENEE VAN HANEGEM, his wife works nights at one of the hotels in Aruba.

No offense intended but I think yall are both still way off.  Where is this crap coming from.  Of course Beth come out strong( even stronger the Jug)  Remember she is her Mom and he is her stepdad.  What would you expect?

Juvenal:
Pretty much.

Okay.... must bring this up

Why the hell would police takes CD's and mp3 players in a search?

 :o  :o  :o  :roll:

I dont think any of that makes sense!  Have you forgotten about the shovin match?  That was much earlier!

For the record Mike, I didn't say anything quoted here. I agree with you completely.

as far as i am concered you din't see it becasue it is not there.  meester van der sloot is an oficious bureaucrat LE guy.  the kid seems like maybe too serious with a fertile imagination. he is not bad either as i read him  maybe awkward, dignified, distant, uncomfortable like his dad around strangers.  natalee is described by her dad as th opposite outgoing, gregarious, wants to meet new people,determined, intelligent and probably mature for her age she looks centered and laid back to me.

Just a few assumptions, is all.

Hey Cali, you sweet thang!  ANd jes who is Lorenzo?  Please!

Can someone gimme a clue to find Dan's quote?  Please!

I look sweet and innocent and ummm....
no comment! lmao

Have we eliminated the possibility that the wife of this man was the one who reported seeing 2 men dragging a hysterical woman away at the north end of the beach that late Sunday night...

Or is this just another "Unrelated" incident... hmmmm

With all do respect, that shoving match hasn't been confirmed by anyone...not natalees freinds, nor her parents. That is speculation as far as I am concerned. I haven't read anything solid on that line as of yet. All heresay, as far as I have read.

I have been asking the same thing and no one will answer

"kintento kontesta mi pregunda"

I have a question Mike:

Seems like we're getting conflicting reports on when Joran and Natalee actually met. Or when Joran might've met any of the kids on the trip.

If, as is being said most recently, J and N first met earlier on the day of her disappearance, when did the shoving match happen?

Mike, or anybody else who can clear this up?

A MB student from the trip went on the record to confirm it.

When was it supposed to have happened, CaliGirl?

Can't believe you turned down a date tonight to come on here, by the way! Must've not been a very good prospect. :(

Mike and slt..

Lorenzo is a boy questioned twice but not arrested (YET) he reported owns a speed boat and has a basement

As far as I've read Juvenal, Joran and Natalee met at the casino in the HI that day, prior to hooking up at CnC that evening.

The shoving match hasn't been confirmed by any of her friends or classmates as far as i have read.

A scuffle with words exchanged no one went into great details over what.. probably who's hair looked better with gel! lol WHo knows with kids these days...
lol Yeah the date was a "friend" who I am not thinking of kindly.. posting is more important! lol

the cds might be data.  Burned CDs.  Even the porno cd he made.

What confirmation did they have to say about it. This puzzles me, all this heresay of that, and perhaps it did happen yet nobody has given any account of it.

If there is a thread cali, can you provide it, and if so, was it from one of the students who, in fact witnessed it?

No. The 'premeditated' only concerns the actual act of murder.

/edited for spelling

He's allegedly 26-27 years old.  IF the vdSloot part of his story is true, which I still doubt highly, he would most likely have been born in Holland, possibly Arnehm, where Paulus lived when he was married to Anita and they had Joran.

(I don't know that Arnehm is Paulus's hometown, but it's a known place to start.)  We've heard that Paul was a school teacher before he got into government service in Aruba 10 years ago and did whatever legal training he is supposed to have, whether he has a law degree or not.  

Paulus's job in Aruba for the past few years has been as one of the department of Liaison between The Netherlands and Aruba--and I believe, others of the Dutch Antilles.  That is KABNAA and he was appointed to a 3-year term ending in Jan 2006, except that he evidently has been let go since all this started.

So, who is Lorenzo's mother?  Could it be the Deborah vRijn in Oranjestad, perhaps a widow, or is that just too easy?

Lorenzo's "father" on Aruba is said to have been the Volkswagen dealer on the island and he committed suicide three years ago.  The VW dealership that is there now is:

R & S Automotive N.V.
Address: Barcadera 4
Phone: (297) 585-3004 / (297) 585-3008
Fax: (297) 585-9115  

Note that it's on Barcadera, not sure exactly where that address is, but one of the very earliest searches for Natalee was in the Barcadera area.  I suppose someone could call them and ask questions about the former (late) owner.  He was said to be well known, obviously, since he was a car dealer who needed to have his company name out in the public.

Lorenzo is said to have two homes on far opposite sides of the island--one a mansion and one brightly painted (may be the same one).  Other vague details are that he has a basement in one of these houses, which is rare on Aruba (if not non-existent, IMO); that he gives "underground" parties, meaning *raves*, which are unruly and unsupervised;  that he is "crazy" himself, or perhaps "touched in the head" since his father's death; that he owns a speedboat; and that he was called in for questioning in Nat's disappearance, just before SG Croes was, but he was not detained.

Sorrym stlnative, was distracted by other things - meant to answer earlier.

Lorenzo Van Rijn or Van Geijn or Van Gijn

Rumoured to be PVDS's illegitimate son

Father (I would assume the step father) was owner of a Volkswagen dealership, committed suicide a few years ago

Since then, Lorenzo is rumoured to be doing all sorts of crazy stuff, underground parties, sex videos, etc.

I'm trying to recall other details, but if you want additional rumours, do a forum search for Lorenzo to get a complete picture.

I don't think anything has been confirmed though, other than he being brought in for questioning a few days ago.

The moms stated they were music lol I just found it odd but everything is odd!!

Which leads me to my next weirdness outbreak...

::ducking:: I am curious about the report of Jug taking out insurance (not saying he is involved BTW). I am curious because there a several articles about kidnapping people and companies now offer kidnapping insurance... did anyone know that? I had never heard of such an insurance!

I just found the strangest thing while searching....

There is a stephen lorenzo van Heyningen (same last name as the partial decapitated man, Rene Van Heyningen)

could it be??? :shock:

But when was it supposed to have happened?

Well, while shes described sorta like that shes also been described as " alittle shy".  I do not buy any of this abput her approaching him, buying him A DRINK ETC,  UNLESS AS HAS BEEN STATED EARLIER, THEY MET PREVIOUS AND WERE NOT STRANGERS THAT NIGHT!  Sorry bout shoutin' it was axident!

It wasn't a *shoving match* - not physical - it was just loud words - a *shouting match.*

At least, that's how it started out three weeks ago as being reported, but it kept growing over the course of the case, with each re-telling.

Someone else noticed that too, I see. They took all their tapes as well (I assume that would could be both audio and video). Both mothers mentioned that clearly.

That points directly to the possible teenage XXX rated picture/video angle.

On a related note, it was stated that one of the Dutch "experts" that was sent in was a specialist in so-called "children's crimes" (which would mean anyone under 18). They would know the ins and outs of the blog/Tickle/Myspace cyberworld, and know about the XXX angle as well.

I told someone yesterday that the key to understanding this crime is the Internet.

Natalee has fallen into some unspeakable evil that is connected with this scummy low-life cyberworld, or has been taken by drug thugs, or by the Mafia-style underworld.

Here's one i found really quick http://www.postherald.com/me061005.shtml

In all common sense, I would think that once a person has been missing a certain length of time, the insurance would cover as if the missing person was deceased. But hell, I am just speculating. Who know's what the hell these insurance companys cover anymore, or should i say DON'T COVER?
Edit to add...
I think there has to be a body to for any insurance claim
Not sure if this type of insurance is ligit cali

[

good post  aunt twitty said today natalee has been in the family since 7 years.  holloway has a 7 year old by his new wife.  when did they jug/beth divorce?  did natalee stay with mom or dad?  can you imagine laid back patient and considerate holloway married to beth?[/quote]


Do not know how to link, but a good article on early years and both Holloways & Twittys...

www.clintonnews.com
Thursday, June 16, 2005 edition

Yeah but they pay ransoms.. up to 1 million

I know a lot about it, more than I can write tonight (er, this morning) - but I will expound about it later.  It's part of what I'm writing in sections, but I'm not there yet.

Cali, surely you dont think Nat just met Urine that night and SHE was persuing him? :shock:  SHe might have been friendly w'him but only cause she knew him from before!

Thank you Ida!!

I am really curious about this since I learned they pay ransoms.

Well, Cali,  I see your point! :wink:

I believe she met him before that night.

ROFLMAO I am living proof that looks are deceiving  :wink:

so what is your point?
are you getting at a ransom to the parents or a ransom to the kidnapper? lol, where are you going with that cali?

Ranson to kidnapper! lol Beth has stated tonite she knows her daughter was kidnapped.

Nope! That would be confirmed!  I saw Nat hs friend who broke it up.  He was interviewed on local tv.  He stated that that was when he got a good look at Urine!  There was shoving match!  A FACT!

Yes true Cali,

But I have to say, and ask you this, would you ever take out insurance on your child, teenager ...RANSOM INSURANCE???

It just doesn't make sense.

I dont think any of that makes sense!  Have you forgotten about the shovin match?  That was much earlier![/quote][/quote]

With all do respect, that shoving match hasn't been confirmed by anyone...not natalees freinds, nor her parents. That is speculation as far as I am concerned. I haven't read anything solid on that line as of yet. All heresay, as far as I have read.[/quote]Nope! That would be confirmed!  I saw Nat hs friend who broke it up.  He was interviewed on local tv.  He stated that that was when he got a good look at Urine!  There was shoving match!  A FACT![/quote]

well, please do find us a link or subjective testimony to that fact. I haven't read any confirmation on that at all.
Can you provide details of this match? What happened, why it started, etc.

Actually, from what I read it's included. I tried to do some rearch on it because I was sent some additional info when I posted about it.. a lot of big companies offer it. Jug works for a subsidery of a huge company.

It was an article about how "low risk people" overseas are being kidnapped for ransoms and taken to Latin America...

THER'VE BEEN SEVERAL REPORTS OF HIM BEING AROUND FOR ONE OR TWO DAYS PRIOR AND at the holiday inn.  (SORRY Caps are backards, my bad).  Thers only been one mention of her meeting him 30-40 mins(or whatever) before she disappeared, that being the recent classmate interview.  I just think she's mistaken.  To many say otherwise.  The fight ?  I cant say fer sure.  Dont member!

Thanks Mike.

But me personally I would never take insurance out on my child because not one penny could replace her nor pay for one damn thing to unbreak my heart.

The shoving match was 1 or 2 nights before. There is no clear cause given for it but I personally don't think it had anything to do with Natalee.

It doesn't sound AT ALL like Natalee and Joran were an inseparable "item" during those 4 days. It is really strange though, the discrepancy between Dash and Frances Bird over the time when she first met Joran. (Frances Bird is the gal who said it was the last night). FB was a ROOMMATE of Natalee's and is in just about every one of her pictures, usually standing right by her! Yet she doesn't think they were "officially" introduced until the little spiel about Daddy's money etc.

Another in a LONG list of things that makes no sense in this deal.

Ok, perhaps, it isn't included in my insurance within a company, but hey! you have a good point there, i'm not going to dispute it.

pictures (stills), .wav files (voices sound recordings), documents...you can record a ton of stuff on 700 MB of space.

Agreed. Can not have a straight story from either side and only one sides allowed to speak and we still get many versions of things.

[/quote]

With all do respect, that shoving match hasn't been confirmed by anyone...not natalees freinds, nor her parents. That is speculation as far as I am concerned. I haven't read anything solid on that line as of yet. All heresay, as far as I have read.[/quote]Nope! That would be confirmed!  I saw Nat hs friend who broke it up.  He was interviewed on local tv.  He stated that that was when he got a good look at Urine!  There was shoving match!  A FACT![/quote]

well, please do find us a link or subjective testimony to that fact. I haven't read any confirmation on that at all.
Can you provide details of this match? What happened, why it started, etc.[/quote]As I said ust now, I dont have a link. Hey I ain't stupid, I watch TV! :shock: It was on TV!  No LiNK!

I wonder if Valentijn will be the next questioned.. or maybe Anita? But Valentijn was home...

CaliGirl is that avatar a picture of you? If so you look very sweet and innocent! But then of course looks are deceiving huh!

With all do respect, that shoving match hasn't been confirmed by anyone...not natalees freinds, nor her parents. That is speculation as far as I am concerned. I haven't read anything solid on that line as of yet. All heresay, as far as I have read.[/quote]Nope! That would be confirmed!  I saw Nat hs friend who broke it up.  He was interviewed on local tv.  He stated that that was when he got a good look at Urine!  There was shoving match!  A FACT![/quote]

well, please do find us a link or subjective testimony to that fact. I haven't read any confirmation on that at all.
Can you provide details of this match? What happened, why it started, etc.[/quote]As I said ust now, I dont have a link. Hey I ain't stupid, I watch TV! :shock: It was on TV!  No LiNK![/quote]

I sent a link. lol

oLOve that Greta, "URINE! LOL!

The Birmingham News quotes the guy who got into it with Joran, I believe his name is Kevin Reynolds or something like that.

He did NOT say anything about it being connected to Natalee. I have a feeling the MB guys might not have liked Joran's attitude.

Suspect was in pushing match
Man had scuffle with some of Holloway's friends
By DANIEL JACKSON
BIRMINGHAM POST-HERALD
One of the three young men arrested Thursday in the disappearance of Mountain Brook teen Natalee Holloway got into a pushing match with some of her friends in an Aruban bar, one of Holloway's friends said Thursday.
Bryan Reynolds, 18, one of 124 recent high school graduates whowent to Aruba in late May, said some of his friends almost got into a fight with Joran Andreas Petrus Van Der Sloot and his friends.

The scuffle started after Van Der Sloot, a Dutch suspect arrested at his upper-class home in Oranjestad, Aruba, Thursday morning, had been talking to 18-year-old Holloway at a bar where she and classmates hung out during the five-day trip, Reynolds said.

"There was almost a fight between my friend and him," said Reynolds, who was sitting in his car in the parking lot of Mountain Brook Community Church on Thursday after attending a noon prayer service with his classmates and others. "I had to break them up. That's when I got a good look at them."

With all do respect, that shoving match hasn't been confirmed by anyone...not natalees freinds, nor her parents. That is speculation as far as I am concerned. I haven't read anything solid on that line as of yet. All heresay, as far as I have read.[/quote]Nope! That would be confirmed!  I saw Nat hs friend who broke it up.  He was interviewed on local tv.  He stated that that was when he got a good look at Urine!  There was shoving match!  A FACT![/quote]

well, please do find us a link or subjective testimony to that fact. I haven't read any confirmation on that at all.
Can you provide details of this match? What happened, why it started, etc.[/quote]As I said ust now, I dont have a link. Hey I ain't stupid, I watch TV! :shock: It was on TV!  No LiNK![/quote]

I rest my case, this is not something that has even been brought up to the media to any length(undisputed), littleon the parents of all and anyone involved...It is heresay!!! Period. It just seems to me to be a moot point.

Kevin, Bryan... close enough. The shoving match DID happen.

The way the article is written makes it sound like it was in conjunction with Joran talking to Natalee, but I don't think that is so. That is just a journalistic filler.

Nope! That would be confirmed!  I saw Nat hs friend who broke it up.  He was interviewed on local tv.  He stated that that was when he got a good look at Urine!  There was shoving match!  A FACT![/quote]

well, please do find us a link or subjective testimony to that fact. I haven't read any confirmation on that at all.
Can you provide details of this match? What happened, why it started, etc.[/quote]As I said ust now, I dont have a link. Hey I ain't stupid, I watch TV! :shock: It was on TV!  No LiNK![/quote]

I sent a link. lol[/quote]

Oh man, these links, quotes are all screwed up, i'm off now. Night all.

Itawamba Agreat summary.  Keepin' it for myself, too!

Well pichure this:  They met before!  He comes in that night(after sneakin out ) No remem, they now know each other, so  when she sees him she goes over and says something like "Well, hi big spender!  You seem to be the BMOC around here (nic nic Inside joke flirt) how bout I buy you a rink? "  Get it?  She flirts, a scene repeated through the ages, but her friend who had not seen them together before couldn't tell she was playin and thought the flirt acted meeting was their first meetim!.

Nite all! I Am sweepy!

I just wanted to point out  :wink:

That all the information I reported from my Kalpoe source was confimed by their mom a bit tonite. Now I know I have a source  :lol:

((((Hugs))))


See all ya monkey's tomorrow! Or morning.. since it's morning lol

Agreed!  Agreed!

Nope! That would be confirmed!  I saw Nat hs friend who broke it up.  He was interviewed on local tv.  He stated that that was when he got a good look at Urine!  There was shoving match!  A FACT![/quote]

well, please do find us a link or subjective testimony to that fact. I haven't read any confirmation on that at all.
Can you provide details of this match? What happened, why it started, etc.[/quote]As I said ust now, I dont have a link. Hey I ain't stupid, I watch TV! :shock: It was on TV!  No LiNK![/quote]

I rest my case, this is not something that has even been brought up to the media to any length(undisputed), littleon the parents of all and anyone involved...It is heresay!!! Period. It just seems to me to be a moot point.[/quote] Surely you dont mean the shovin.  As the prev posts veryify, its a fact!

Right TTown Mike, but the point is that FB said this was the first meeting. Remmeber this is Natalee's ROOMMATE and possibly closest friend on the trip. Check out how she is in ALL the pictures.

What this tells ME is that you did not ever have the following scenario:

Nat comes in and says to roommates: Hey did you guys meet that Joran guy, he's OK ya know (wink here). Roommates respond: Yeah Natalee he's a neat guy (or something to that effect)... which leads to discussion from Female Cabinet about relative merits of Sir Joran yada yada.  :roll:

As is standard amongst close female friends. Which would have been remembered by the roommate.

In other words, her thought was that the Natalee radar screen had not really picked up the Joran blip until the very last night.

If I understand you I think I agree what you say is like what I said.  The roomate just may not have been aware they had already met.

OPK gotta crash now !  Night all!

From the Travel Advisor board (before this one got started)

The Allegro Resort Hotel is closed for renovation but the casino is still open. And it has been reported that Natalee and some other teens in her group have been in both casinos, as has Joran with her. If memory serves me well, it was in one of those casinos that Natalee met Joran and it was in one of those casinos that a boy in Natalee's group got into a shoving match with Joran and another boy in Natalee's group stepped in to break it up.

I believe there were 2 shoving matches.  One at a casino and one at a bar.  After the these events, I also believe that the Joran\Nat romance went underground.  This may be why she wanted to walk back to the HI by herself..to quietly come in the back way and incospiciously meld back into the crowd.

TEST

I'm done too. Good night everyone.

Keep Natalee and her family in our prayers.

(quick U-turn)

LouLou, WHERE are you getting all that info from? I have not heard ANY discussions like that in print. All of that basically implies that those closest to Natalee have been lying to everyone. There is only 1 shoving match reported and its location is lost in journalistic fog. And the implications of "their romance went underground" are pretty severe.

Do you have links to articles that bear out what you are saying?

The Birmingham Post-Herald has reported that the recently arrested Joran Van der Sloot was in a pushing match with some of Natalee Holloway's friends earlier on during the night of her disappearance.

One of the three young men arrested Thursday in the disappearance of Mountain Brook teen Natalee Holloway got into a pushing match with some of her friends in an Aruban bar, one of Holloway's friends said Thursday.

Bryan Reynolds, 18, one of 124 recent high school graduates whowent to Aruba in late May, said some of his friends almost got into a fight with Joran Andreas Petrus Van Der Sloot and his friends.

The scuffle started after Van Der Sloot, a Dutch suspect arrested at his upper-class home in Oranjestad, Aruba, Thursday morning, had been talking to 18-year-old Holloway at a bar where she and classmates hung out during the five-day trip, Reynolds said.

quoted from Riehl

to be more specific, I found that at http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/06/natalee_hollowa_7.html

now this is a scenario i just cannot imagine......but apparently some of you are entertaining this one.


Beth:  Operator, I would like to be connected to Farmer's Insurance Company

Operator:  I will be happy to connect you

Bill:  Farmer's Insurance

Beth:  Hi BIll....my daughter hooty, I mean Natalee is going on a senior trip.  Can we get some RANSOM insurance in a hurry?  It could be really handy "just in case"

Bill: Sure Beth....how many millions do ya want?


Get a grip folks.  Ransom insurance, like key man insurance - is sold to cover CEO's, and key persons at corporations - not for momma's little girl's high school trips.   :roll:

Anyone from Aruba...I think you're on the same time as USA ET...which is on daylight time.  I believe that would be UTC -4:00 + 1 hour for the daylight time.

Would you please PM me and let me know if you also have daylight time?

It will help clarify some discrepancies.

Thanks.

OK Brenda I'll bite...why couldn't someone get a specific rider/scripted clause to add such.  I'd agree it's not key man insurance, but it must exist for personal lines.

cost would be one reason Whitney. it's been awhile, but my husband had this kind of thing - it wasn't cheap.

(http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/carlosncharliesimsex.JPG)

from http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_the_vanishing_of_natalee_holloway.html#000814

an excellent article and oh yes, Look at those (not scared IMO)Monkeys

I hear you; the article that I think it was CaliGirl posted said $4000/1 million; didn't give terms, and didn't say if it had to be (which it probably does) necessarily be a part of a package.  And, unless this was something that Jug had because of his position at the company where he worked (he's a GM there, whatever), he would be the first person the FBI would ask to take a polygraph and the happiest camper in the world would be Elio, the ex-poliz detective who's been going on the news encouraging the authorities to probe the young, NH's stateside background.

Thanks for you response...LOL...it's late and I was reading the last two articles at the Dark Side and thought I'd post this.  Good nite!

could someone tell me what this website is about?  I wonder if this is the Rene van Heyningen that they found with his throat slit. There is a photograph.   
                http://www.groenetechnieken.nl/pages_agt/proficiat2003.html

Well, you've probably already done this, but if you do a search, and type in
 Rene AND van AND Heyningen and click the button for all posts on the left...well, I surprised myself..

It's too late to do more...but I was amazed!

according to the crude translator at dictionary.com

Kadertraining Voorman means framework training voorman - so it's a photo of people who took some sort of training course. i'm sure some of our native dutch speakers can do a better job (when everyone surfaces) looks as though they were all burning the midnight (and beyond) oil.

Is this really the person who was found murdered?

mojo...have you done a search of the posts on the SM site?  Apparently the throat slit guy...BTW, I have a different name for the person...it was from the Hasibokos.com site...last Sunday....

SUNDAY: Missing man has been identified as Sergio Gomez. This case and the dead, partially decapitaed, body found at Sabana are not believed to be related to the Natalee Holloway case. ....
...The local authorities aided by the FBI and some Dutch experts have not been able to crack this case yet. As if this case (ref Natalee Holloway) wasn’t enough, Hasibokos.com has received information that the police have found a (partially) decapitated body of an Aruban male Saturday morning in the neighborhood called Sabana (see map). . According to preliminary (unconfirmed) reports the man was murdered in his house and then later dumped in a cemetery close by.  The scene at the house and the cemetery have been described as gruesome and bloody.http://www.hasibokos.com/hbknews/?view=day&blogDate=6/10/2005

First time poster but I've been lurking as a guest for a while so please be kind. This may not amount to a hill of beans but I have been searching on the guy named Lorenzo Van Rijn since you guys have been trying to find information on him.  I haven't been able to find anything with using the first name Lorenzo yet but I have found something I thought was kind of interesting concerning a company with the name of Van Rijn in Aruba.  It appears that there are 3 business that may be affiliated with one another.

1st business Van Rijn IM- EN Export N.V. looks to be an import/export business from the listing. What I really thought was kind of odd as I kept on looking was that I also found 2 other companies which were and automotive company and a diesel company listed all at the same location.  All 3 of these companies are located at the same address in Bacadera in Aruba.  I'm not sure but I think this may be a shipping/cargo area.

2nd business known as R & S Diesel Service has the exact same phone number as the Van Rijn Im- En Export N.V. business.

3rd business known as R & S Automotive and Industrial Parts N.V. sell Volkswagon cars which you guys have mentioned that Lorenzo was connected to a Volkswagon dealership on the board before.  This business has a different phone number but the exact same fax number as R & S Diesel Service.

This may have absolutely nothing to do with anything and may all be normal occurrences for businesses in Aruba but it kind of bothered me since the last name (Van Rijn) is the name on an import/export business.  My apologies to the companies I've written about if I'm out in left field with all of this.  My daughter and I came up with this information in hopes that it might be helpful in finding Natalee.

The arubans said that Lorenzo's dad had a VW business so that would be the right one.

It was just weird to me how all 3 of those companies tied in with one another.

Nice work Sobelle...

key words here might be import/export business...

import/export businesses are sometimes just that, but sometimes a lot more is involved ....

the below link was posted a long time ago on the theory & speculation page but it may be of value to all the newcomers and especially with its context here...

http://www.tni.org/archives/tblick/aruba.htm

"A magnificent washing-machine is sold here, its trademark is Aruba. The machine is an Aruban-Colombian product, its model called Cartel. The brand is well-known for its good performance in the United States and Europe. It is recommended by former ministers, members of Parliament, owners of casinos, supermarkets, cosmetics manufacturers and importers of cars and batteries. The washing-machine fits everybody who has become inexplicably rich from one day to another."
                        -Elio Nicolaas, former minister & police officer

I am a behavioural profiler who has and is tracing five missing persons, and in the past with language codes found the keys in television interviews of persons. These relayed to authorities may have, and were found to be accurate in the persons having these set patterns in conflict to the words stated.

In the case of Joran Van Der Sloot and what has been written. The following is revealed.

Joran Van Der Sloot at an age before 17, made a tape of a 14 year old girl being gang raped on the island with other members of this 'club on the island - that island was Aruba. The circulation is unknown, and not known if free circulation via his internet site, or the site of the internet cafe. Investigative agencies have a copy of those and that edition one would suppose, and the name of the victim.

Joran Van Der Sloot is credited with having anger management therapy. He is quoted by mothers as being a bully. He shows little respect for those lesser than him in size, parental wealth/status and more academic progress. He is not an 'arts' person, but a game player. His adrenalin high is on winning, and competative sports. He has to win, and having the parentage he has he is set to win at any cost. His money for gambling in casino's therefore is from 'where'?

His 'friends' on weblogs say he had sold the film of the gang rape, not given it. This if true is a crime, and one that if the parents knew is a crime he can be charged with as the hardcopy is on the drive of his computer, but more likely the internet cafe computer as parents can 'look down' at email messages on their computer as can police. Erased messages also can be taken by internet security consultants and also photographs.

Joran Van Der Sloot, his age is nearer to 18 as he says he is a LEO. So he will be 18 soon.Most of his male friends seem older than him, and not a racial bias. He has older friends with the same assets and lifestyle. His webpage shows many spelling errors as in ARNHEM, and wonder of his lucidity in making this page. Common words in neurological function of language can be affected by Wernicke-Korsakoffe confabulation, that is half truth/half fiction. Something that is prevalent in most deviants and sadists found who have personality disorders. It is also a condition in severe alcohol ingestion over time, and of course stroke, brain injury persons in the non alcoholic kind.

Joran Van Der Sloot's home page is his identity. The pages of the photos selected as his own cognitive state show how he wants to be seen. The devils horns and bar behind are scenes above his own age of 17 and status those he wishes to impress. These are girls, and he has to impress those older than him, not younger. Therefore in behavioural traits he is being narcissistic, egotistical, AOD and other drugs dependant in some form, and has to be central to all images of him as the 'sensation seeker' in his own mind. I wonder then of the phenomena of 'folie a deux' as in more than one as Master and apprentice, and if one is ellevated past this?

In the homepages in Holland it is said they think he is being framed. Rubbish, serial killers who have been sent the image of Joran with the neckstrap round the puny boys neck will comment if allowed on the mind of the person doing this. But without that reply I am saying that the photograph shows in body language his full frame as covering the photo and his shirt chosen for its association and his neural firing of AOD pupil reaction. The boy in this is acutely victimised shown by the eyes screwed up, palour and side view as sadism is shown, not playful sex bondage. He exhibits strangulation signs. Of all else, Joran shows no gay attributes, this shown is a victim, not a play act. The facial expression and loss of shirt expose the punyness and lack of identity in contrast to Joran's.

This person will and can be a witness, and I would speculate is from a none skilled, low socio economic family where he takes his bullying tendancies and anger pool from.

I would say abandonment rage is a symptom he displays and he has a rage in the home that is known as outbursts. He engages with his dad, and tests him to the limits. His mother is the least aggressive and passive of the whole lot. She is the calmer of the unit. Joran's own statements as to Natalee have been dissociative. He has sought to distance as has his father from the outside media. Natalee's parents on speaking to the father in the early days may as reported have found him to be condescending, arrogant - as stated and above the law. He is however a trainee judge on the island. The judge in the case is an impartial highly qualified judge who is from another island. He is above Joran's father and most people on the island. He will use behavioral assessments, medical records, and all past behaviour to form an opinion on what Joran and the family have as issues on deviant behaviour already exhibited.

Locals are invaluable in message boards as both devils advocate and as insights into the island and of the person in both supporting and non supporting roles to a behavioural profiler.

The issue of the lighthouse as distancing, there is one other near the International School at the extreme south of the Island.

I do not think this was an impromtu event, due to the fight with the lads of Natalees school and the planning element of cognitive minds in three predators shown to be so by locals on the island and his mode of humiliating girls in groups. He is most likely to have taken her in equal matches of power between the two brothers using the safety key of his fathers position. This is a tool for his authority and credibility.

I have to assume to implicate the guards at her hotel he had to have passed in the car and seen this walkie talkie at some time, or that evening to be able to finger these as suspects to allow his release and those of the other two. Hence he, or the two brothers passed that hotel around that time. I would therefore say for the plan to work, if she is dead, she will have been there in some construction area site to make this stick.

In later retractions and distancing she is now said to be in a lighthouse, which one? Why this lead to the extreme North, she is then said to be on a beach, all of which is past her hotel. She is said to be left on that or a beach with Joran. No it does not cognitively fit. They were all together for some period of time, what time we do not know. It is therefore imperative that the findings are in secret from media in order for the search of what looks like her remains to happen, or cloths/DNA. If she is alive, the reward will allow that person to post on messages that will lead to her finding, for she is still on the land on the island. Not in my view off the island, in the sea, and would look inland as behavioural environmental psychology at the familiarity of the suspects and easy access in a car. My professional insights follow this process.

Posted by: Dutchlady | June 21, 2005 05:35 AM

many of the statements upon which Dutch lady bases her profile have not been verified...btw, Arnhem is the correct spelling. the town he lists as his home town is clearly shown in the background of one of his family photos (the one with his little brother, mother and valentijn)

we also know that his mother studied there.

"Dutchlady" continues to impress!...


has there been any searches of the Allegro Hotel site...specifically areas down low or covered over? basements ? beneath a slag pile? waste holes?

obviously there would have been at least a cursory search following the initial rest of Mickey John and the other guy...but anything more thorough since?

Thanks for the interesting link.  Yep, it's kind of scary what is put in those large containers when they are shipped.  That's why I wondered about the import/export company when I saw it listed with the Rijn name.

call me crazy but don't you think this would be what should have gone through jorans mind?

something bad happens to natalee..........why not just call the cops,ambulance,etc right away.......say we were partying, we just met,etc. at least now you look like someone who did the right thing and maybe his fathers influence helps out there.

but covering up and lying and having many people involved, suggests to me that what he and others did was more than the case of an accident or something that could be excused as an accident.

with this tangled web it seems that what they did must have been so bad and evil that they felt hiding was the only option.....this wasn't a case of experimental drugs/alcohol and stupid teens........it seems more like a case of rape,torture,kidnapping......

all i know is that if i was out partying and i was with some girl on the beach, we were drinking, etc and we went swimming or something and she wound up drowning, i would be calling cops and rescue in 5 minutes..........but if i had raped and drugged her and then she died, i might think i have no escape but a cover up.

Thanks for that, maritzka.  I've not seen this before.  Quite interesting!

maritzka, VERY interesting insights and I appreciate you taking the time to share all that with us!  I've always had an interest in behavioral science so this case intriques me.  Your analysis is great!

exactly air - but to what degree and who exactly is involved. i still don't buy the kalpoes - we just gave them a lift. friendship is one thing, but that's absurd.

Morning everyone. Just checking in this morning to see if there were any new developments since last night? Does anyone know if they will be bringing JVDS from prison to interrogate more while his father is also being interrogating? Just wondering. Or if the brothers will be, and/or all of them? Since not much can be released I think it would be somewhat telling if they interrogate them together(not same room but same time), or just the father and son.
Thanks in advance for any updates.

well Peeps, here is my two cents for the day and then I have to be good and work, and leave this sad story until Greta at 10:00 pm tonight

I was watching re runs of the Fox coverage late last night and something the editor of Diario said is making me think this story is running in a more heinous direction, I had a "ah ha" moment

Josee said to Alan Colmes that the reason they hauled in Paul is that there are large contradictions between Joran's and Paul's story, he put it, there is something very wrong going on between the father and the son

now add to this the statement by Ms. Croes, our favourite spokesperson that Mr. VDS is a suspect in the disappearance not the cover up

add to this it's been verified that Joran now admits he was alone with Natalee on that beach

which is what the Kalpoe brothers have been saying for quite some time now, add to this you have Joran saying Deepak picked him up then Satish picked him up, come on, surely you can remember which brother picked you up, and if the father is involved it explains why Joran keeps changing his story

add to this some curious things spoken by Beth and Jug - Beth has been reported to have said she suspected Paul even before she met him, now I am assuming she means that night of May 31st and I believe that what happened was that Beth and Jug were at the Holiday Inn Casino getting information, and I believe they viewed or certainly have since viewed the casino videotape and I think Mr. VDS was at the Holiday Inn Casino the same time as Joran AND Natalee

I think Mrs. VDS's story that her husband was sound asleep after he picked up Joran at McDonalds at 11:00 pm are all lies - she's been told lies by her husband and son

I think Mr. VDS was the one Joran called for help

I think Mr. VDS made up the alibi and either he and/or Joran were somehow able to get the boys on side

don't forget, the Kalpoe boys may have not been told exactly what happened and you tend to give your friend the benefit of the doubt, and given who Joran's dad is, they also may have figured he knows what he is talking about, because I hear they admit they gave Joran cover, they are young, you make stupid judgments at that age

the only thing is I don't know where to fit in Croes per se, I find it interesting that even Jug and Beth are confused as where he fits in and they clearly have more information than we do and they've been on the mark on other areas

I also have to wonder if they have forensic results back that they are not disclosing

now I may just be proven wrong on the brothers, they will be in enough trouble for providing the false alibi

Morning all, just thought I would pop in and say hi, heading to work.

Sounds like it was a semi productive late night in here last night. Great work on the 3 companies info.

just a question for our profiler, very interesting post by the way, did Joran misspell "Arnhem" because Arnhem is the correct spellling of the Dutch city they apparently hail from......I wouldn't put much stock on misspelling on the internet though, that is a matter of typing skill versus spelling, I won awards in spelling as as a child,  I went to law school but my spelling and grammar on the internet is far from stellar

Foremen are congratulated for passing a course.

A question for people who know law - does this ring any bells?

I believe that I have read that, in some places, it could be considered "premeditated" murder if you have a reasonable expectation that your neglect could cause someone to die and, yet, you do nothing.

For example, if you leave the scene of an accident where an injured person is without reporting it and the person dies of an injury as a result of this.

So in our case, Natalee is in a drug-induced coma, both Joran and his father are aware of this, and yet neither get her medical help and she dies.

Could this then be considered "premeditated" murder?

my last note is what would make our profiler think the Kalpoe brothers are predators

if one was watching Fox last night and esp the interviews with the mothers, first of all, the Kalpoe brothers have not been in Aruba that long apparently, according to their mother, if I picked that up right and secondly, Mrs. VDS said that the Kalpoe brothers are not Joran's best friends but mates, which I translate as partying buddies, but then Mrs. VDS may be wrong on a lot of things.......

one thing I left out of my post - one has to wonder what if anything the neighbours of the Van Der Sloots saw or heard that night......

okay, one last amendment to my theory

sounds like Mr. VDS was at the Holiday Inn Casino on the night of May 29th

of course we know Joran left the Holiday Inn Casino and ended up at C & Cs -

now let's assume the Kalpoe brothers dropped off Joran and Natalee at the beach near the Marriott which now seems to be the story they are all singing now

assume something bad happens and Joran panics

Joran has a cell phone, he knows Dad is gambling just up the road, for all we know Dad moved to the Marriott casino and was even closer by

now if Dad was in either of those casinos he'd been on their videotape wouldn't he

hmmmmmmm

just a quick update from hasibokos this am -

Latest developments in The Netherlands (Friday):
The media in The Netherlands has picked up the story about the arrest of Paul van der Sloot on Friday. They reported the following:

Justitie verdenkt de Nederlandse rechter Paul van der S. (53) van het medeplegen van moord, doodslag of ontvoering met de dood tot gevolg. (Read Dutch article here )

Translation:
The justice department suspects the Dutch judge, Paul van der S. (53), of being accessory to murder, manslaughter or kidnapping with dead as consequence.

http://www.hasibokos.com/hbknews/default.asp?view=day&blogDate=6/10/2005

oh oh it gets better,  the security guards say they never met the boys but when the security guards were arrested it was reported they were known to the police, the one guard has some run in with the law, so maybe Daddy, in his position,  knew these guys had been warned about aggressive behaviour trying to pick up tourists, so he steered the boys towards implicating them?  perhaps as someone who also hangs out in all these places, he's witnessed it, because here is the other thing, the one guard was at the Holiday Inn casino, that night, but was reported to have left at midnight, if Joran's old man was gambling there, he saw Mickey Johns, knew about Abraham Jones run in with the law so then it makes even more sense when he tells the boys to say they dropped off Natalee at the Holiday Inn because he knew Mickey was at the Holiday Inn that night

problem was John and Jones alibi's checked out, no one said Mr. VDS was a rocket scientist

he may have just arrogantly presumed his son and he would be believed over two black security guards

That has gone through my mind as well. I think Joran was fine with being dropped there bc he knew he had a ride home from someone else. I think it is highly plausable that his father was out, mom was away after all. If their household works like many others, when mom is away things are even more leniant.
On the chance he wasnt there, maybe he actually knew his son was going out to meet this girl and let him. Therefore knowing more then he is telling. Then is could have been more of a "Ok go out, I will pick you up outside the hotel at X time". He then could have asked his son as any parent would how it went. Joran could have said not so good, something bad happened. Anything like this, and you have his father knowing more and holding out information. JMO

TY georgiablues.  Lemondrop this post  from Dutch Lady was on the Reihl MB.  Everytime I read one of her posts it stays with me.  Not that I believe she is right about everything she says, but she sure causes one to stop and think.

my comments didn't seem to be attached to Cancon's post - I speculated that Steve Croes came before PVDS in a court case and thus PVDS knew his job discription and realized he could potentially assist with the disposal of evidence, whatever.

Well I just love it to wake up and read heavy dose of BS.  First of I think none of us were there, and unless your an interrogator as well all this is speculative as most of the comments here.  I too have gone from one end to the other in finding motives.  Secondly, BH is calling the shots.... I think when it comes to Aruba Tourism, the genuine and sincere purpose of helping the victim families, the cautionary step not to accuse innocent party, the procedural way of working within the country laws, the pressure of the FBI, DEA, Dutch investigators, American media,  and the threat of being boycotted the one and only source of the island income... I believe the Aruba Gov't has really no choice.  Maybe all missing stories run similar, this one has all the twist that would make a Hollywood blockbuster.

No. Prosecution would have a hard time proving that abandoment is murder. They can however demand jailtime up to nine years for abandonment of a person in need of help.

Hollywood Blockbuster - I have been thinking book deal since the beginning but when Greta got the 2 families together I added a zero to the price and with Dad's involvement - Brad Pitt in platforms is my pick for JVDS - it is unbelievably fertile ground - decapitation, a little artistic license never hurt - rainbow coloured houses owned by drug addled illegit son of - it goes on and on.

the question is though if Croes wasn't a friend of Joran but Deepak why would Croes put himself out for Joran and his old man, which is where my theory is weak, Croes might put himself out for Deepak but even then, it doesn't like Croes and Deepak were bosom buddies either? the only thing we know is that Croes corroborated the false alibi, he told police he saw the boys dropping Nat off at the Holiday Inn

I wonder sometimes if Croes wasn't in the vicinity of that beach and got dragged into this somehow if he wasn't directly involved in the first place

I mean if someone calls you up in the middle of the night to help dispose of a body, I don't think you'd do it for many people, even if you were a criminal type, because of the risk,  unless they paid him some big money or they had some blackmail dirt on him.....was there a pending legal case and the father agreed to get it fixed somehow? still sounds too sophisticated for all one night's activity

Fox news update...interview (didn't catch the name) states PVDS WAS followed for some days prior to arrest.

no it would be criminally negligent homicide at best and that presumes they have that offence in Aruba

it would normally be a manslaughter charge in that kind of case at maximum

oh dear, even Brad Pitt is way too old to play Joran, think one of the OC actors,

now I can see Gary Oldman playing the father

No not manslaughter, abandoment is specifically covered in dutch law (art.255)

Paul Walker from the fast and the furious might do well too for Joran.

[I mean if someone calls you up in the middle of the night to help dispose of a body, I don't think you'd do it for many people, even if you were a criminal type, because of the risk,  unless they paid him some big money or they had some blackmail dirt on him.....was there a pending legal case and the father agreed to get it fixed somehow? still sounds too sophisticated for all one night's activity[/quote]

I agree it is a difficult connection to make - but I bring in something that has bothered me - the alleged break in at the Fisherman's Hut - why was that not reported 2 weeks ago - that surfaced very recently - at least in our discussions - was Steve in one of the huts when Dad and Joran were freaking out on the beach over Natalee's comatose / deceased body.

that is interesting th hear vfrom Eloi Nicolaas...anyone know how Elio N.
is historically tied into the town of SAN NICOLAAS??

I must have missed something in my readings. Do we have proof that Joren's dad was at a casino that night?? If so could someone post a news link? Thanks.

compananzi,  thanks for putting the above delusional dutch woman into perspective?   might be right on some points but no motive for murder.

oh I just remembered, some smart posters at this forum also noted there was a special concert or festival going on in the area of the Holiday Inn and all the security guards were dressed in black

now again, if Joran's father is out partying in this vicinity instead of at home he would have seen all the security guards dressed in black, and indeed even the boys would have noticed all the security guards in black, so why not implicate a security guard  or guards dressed in black when you know the vicinity was crawling with guards dressed in black or in fact Joran may have seen a few of these guys near the Marriott, when they were off duty

how convenient, you have hundreds of potential suspects, then, perhaps it was by sheer accident they picked up John and Jones or maybe that was because John has been seen at the Holiday Inn that night and they knew Jones was his best buddy and trolled for chicks together

perhaps the old man VDS presumed it would take days to question all these security guards.......

My God people. 7:40 in the mgn here ..and there are already twenty pages to go through......
Good mgn everyone.

thank you, Companazi. i'm relieved to hear it's not just me!  :oops:

I agree it is a difficult connection to make - but I bring in something that has bothered me - the alleged break in at the Fisherman's Hut - why was that not reported 2 weeks ago - that surfaced very recently - at least in our discussions - was Steve in one of the huts when Dad and Joran were freaking out on the beach over Natalee's comatose / deceased body.[/quote]

the only other possibility of course is that Steve was involved more deeply in which case he had a personal stake in dumping the body

To pick up on a point made late yesterday - Beth was not seen publicly yesterday - am I right? - is there any talk of her making an appearance today - someone was speculating she had been given bad news or something

morning IQ---
didn't you post yesterday that
lorenzoes last name was Frankie???

it must be more and more difficult to say that she believes natalee is alive...as much as she must want to believe it.   :cry:

no she was on Larry King Live and Geraldo interviewed her on the Factor, insisted her daughter was kidnapped and still on the island

she wasn't on Greta's show, she focused on Mrs. Kalpoe and Mrs. VDS

i hope she's right -- i stand corrected!  :lol:

well ciao kids, I think I've done some pretty good brainstorming here, putting some pieces together here now that we know the father is a suspect, discuss amongst yourselves

I apologize for posting, promise not to post again, didn't mean to ruin your morning, just thought post had interesting points........They were right, newbies aren't welcome here.

She was interviewed tho, for the H and C's show.  I too did notice her lack of appearance of the television and wondered if she had been advised to limit what she says to the media now that PVDS has been arrested?

I guess everyone must be waiting for their coffee to kick in - it is a little quiet!

I have been lurking for quite a while and finally decided to post.  I have a theory and haven't seen it posted so I was wondering what all of you might think about it.

What if there is a gang of a dozen or so young men on the island that get their kicks out of drugging unsuspecting female tourists and raping them.  Not in a huge group, either individually or in small groups and then they all get together and brag about it.  That would explain the rumors of additional arrests.  In this particular case maybe what happened is that unfortunately Natalee died, Joren freaked and had his dad and/or friends help with hiding her.

just ignore the negative people,  we all got our theories, we all can constructively question each other's theories and try to clarify the facts and the rumours as best we can

me bad, you are not necessarily farfetched, that would be the nasty scenario, and maybe not just young guys involved?

well it was interesting to note that when Greta asked each mother what the police seized from each house, videotapes, DVDs and cameras were part of the booty along with all the computers, no doubt looking for that infamous gang bang tape Geraldo spoke about one night and haven't since, now maybe Geraldo was told by the Aruban police to keep his mouth shut on that one, it could be central to their case

do we know if the internet cafe computers were seized as well?

I did hear a lawyer on CNN state that he hoped they had reasonable evidence to arrest Joren's father on, because even if he's innocent, his arrest will ruin his career in Aruba forever.  

I also thought it was interesting that the various lawyers said that in Aruba, the father can't be held guilty for not disclosing anything Joren might have told him about a crime. He can be held accountable if he actually saw evidence of his son't involvement of a crime however.

Maritzka, don't mind these guys.  For days people have been saying "would like to hear what a profiler has to say" - it was nice of you to share Dutchlady's post with us here.  Some of us like to look at all points of view.

I'm a newbie and I'm gonna make a stand and STICK around no matter what!  So stay with me and we'll be partners in crime.   :lol:  Don't let anyone run you off!  Especially rude people....

however I would find it hard to believe you could do this often and get away with it, once maybe, but several times

though if you use the date rape drug, supposedly the women cannot remember or there may be some kinky chicks who enjoy that sort of thing?

that is why I am curious if this tape story is true because if it is, it is amazing these kids didn't get hauled into the station for this, maybe they did, maybe they got their knuckles rapped,  

I'd find it hard to believe someone wouldn't have squealed to a parent about this tape esp if it were your friend who was the victim?  because this tape was supposedly of an Aruban girl not a tourist

just posting an article on a previous abduction in the islands that "went wrong" for the kidnappers. They'd kidnapped a child for ransome, but there is a kidnapping team that thwarted the kidnapping.



http://www.hotcalaloo.com/july04.htm#Another%20kidnapping

This article summarizes the increase in kidnap for ransom in the carribean.
http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2004/07/12/secret.htm

And if you think Aruba is safe, read the police records below, which include a kidnapping of a young mother of 4;

http://www.korps-politie-suriname.com/nieuws/nieuwsbronnen%20engels/archief%20nieuwsbronnen%20engels/2005/2005-06-nieuwsbronnen-engels/2005-00-nieuwsbronnen-engels-actueel.htm

Speaking of dad van der sloot's arrest, I really feel bad for his wife. THis must really be a crusher to first have her son arrested and now her husband. But I also think she's totally naive or not facing reality. On Greta's show she contradicts herself by saying there are rules (like being in by 11 PM) and in another sentence says they have tried giving more lieniency because Joren was graduating soon. To look at the various pictures that he posted on the web, Joren didn't slip out one night....he slipped out countless nights! Mama van der sloot isn't living in the real world of what her son is up to.

I agree. There are always going to be people who dont agree or jump on someone for something. It doesnt mean everyone here feels that way. I read the post your shared and I like to have the opportunity to read diff points of view. That is what I thought this board was for. As with any board you will have ppl who dont agree with you or clicks so to speak. Dont let it deter you.

regarding the fbi lowring its man count there........i think, in addition to, the fact that they are on the side lines so to speak.........there is a feeling that aruban defense lawyers will start trying to set the tone that it was american influence(fbi) and their clients were not treated fairly because of the pressure to solve the case for the americans....

i don't agree but i can see this being a reality.

Thanks Gerben, that is some great information. I am not sure that the US law has that same category. We would consider it involuntary manslaughter.

that kidnapping was not in Aruba, that newsletter was from all over the Caribbean that kidnapping was from Dutch Guyana

Actually I was thinking that a lot of women probably wouldn't report it happening, either because they were embarrassed or just because they really have no memory of what happened.  Even in the US a lot of rapes go unreported due to how victims get treated in the courtroom by the defense attorneys.

I also saw someone on Fox last night cant remember who though (was changing the baby) that said they felt as if the fbi might also be leaving bc they were not there to be anyones errand boys. In other words they are basically sitting on the sidelines at this point. They also said they would be involved with this case and continue giving the resources as long as they are asked to do so. The FBI is there as observers right now, how many do you need to observe the case? So this might also be why the cut back.

Perhaps in other cases, the victims were sexually active young females.  If a date rape drug is used, they might not even know what happened.  They get taken back to the hotel, they are to leave the next day, and the "fun" is undetected.

Suddenly they guessed wrong with Natalee.  She is inexperienced, so any sign of sexual activity would "show" so to speak.  Perhaps she did not dring enough of the drug, but woke up crying rape--with the physical evidence to prove it.  

I keep going back to maybe the dad actually is the one who killed her--perhaps to silence her screams.

did we ever parse the "they (were joran and father) seen together at the casinos or mr. v/d sloot frequented the casinos''  rumors or did we buy them whole?  don't know where thus came from.

...and by the way it is a hoot how we have demonized gambling which is spreading like cancer in the us, lotteries, riverboats slots, indian casinos, why it is practically legalized!  is this another example of southern (demonize gambling and send your kid to a gambling haven for a senior trip) hypocrisy?

kidnapping is big business in central and south america why not the carribbean? but those kidnapped are usually known to the kidnappers. they're doing this for the money...why kidnap some unknown american?

and despite what the authorities may say, the families pay. our local aruban friends will know if this is a problem on the island.

there is some offence for leaving someone to die when you could have rendered them assistance, I just can't remember what it is

criminal negligent homicide I believe is when you do something that you knew would cause the death of a person

in manslaughter, I think there are two degress of manslaughter - one when you ought to have known your actions could cause someone's death,  and one where you had no intent but your actions did cause someone's death

I for one love gambling. I lived in southern Ca for 26 yrs and moved to NC a few yrs back. I know SC has gambling as my in laws go there frequently. You are correct however that many many southerners for some reason are against it. Point in case our state doesnt even have the lottery because some group here cries that it is a form of gambling, and somehow is therefore unchristian. I file it under souther folklore myself.

Iquitos...I'm sorry but I have to take exception for your comment about "Southern Hypocrisy". I have big news for you there is hypocrisy all over the country and all over the world for that matter. We Southerners DO NOT have the corner on the market.

This whole situation is a tragedy for humanity. The potential loss of a young life with a bright future and chanve to make a difference in the world. This is a tragedy for all the Natalee's that are missing and/or dead. The grief of the families on both sides, the grief of all the Aruban's and the grief of all those in the states. My heart just aches over all this.

::back to lurk mode::

   :arrow:  What if you went to polis and they
 blew u off  totally/blaming victim
OR what if u knew u polis liked the vidoes too/or knew polis already
knew of this activity and  consistently looked the other way?

indeed, I thought it was funny when Jug Twitty was asked about Mrs. Kalpoe's interview with Greta, he said well at least Mrs. Kalpoe seems to know her sons a lot better than Mrs. Van Der Sloot knows her kid, she at least admitted to confronting her sons

Who has demonized gambling?  It's a form of entertainment.  Some people gamble, others don't.

Paulus really does not look like the partying type...He's 53, studying for his judgeship, and most Dutch people are really reserved.  Like the Brittish if there was a comparison.  BH does seem to think her daughter has been kidnapped, and I m not sure if a ransom was asked for?  If we go with this line of thought, how and where would the would be captors have gotten the idea of Nat being a perfect target?

I feel sorry for all of the mothers.  Children do not understand how much they worry their mothers and break their hearts when they do something wrong.  However, I do not pay much attention to what the mothers say about Joran and Kalpoe being good boys because all mothers think this and will say this after their kids are arrested.  It would mean more if other people outside the family made these statements but we haven't heard any.  I think the boys were living a much wilder free lifestyle than their parents will admit.  Perhaps their parents were too busy or self-absorbed and just didn't notice.  Alot of kids are good at fooling their parents.  I think the boys lead to Natalee's disappearance, no matter what their intentions were, and the mothers are going to have alot of grief to deal with when they find out the truth about what their boys did.  The boys will try to keep it from their mothers even if they are guilty.

exactly - i can't see natalie as a target either. and if anyone can bring up a documented story of an american being kidnapped and sold into slavery, i'd be very interested to read it.

I agree, good information. There are pretty rigid guidelines even in the US on when a person must assist. Skiers involved in a collision, driver in an accident... There must be some special relationship betrween the individuals. Simply present when a victim is in respiratory arrest from accidental drug overdose? No.

oh I understand but if Joran and friends were posting this stuff on the internet and/or selling this tape on the island, hard to believe someone somewhere on the island wouldn't have stumbled upon this and reported it to the police, depends on how long ago this was too I suppose if the story is true

I mean they catch child pornographers all the time, in fact I find it stunning that child pornographers still use the internet to spread their filth to other pedophiles knowing the cops got the internet wired to catch these guys, look at Pete Townsend, he got arrested for downloading one photo once, for research he claimed because he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child

well looks can be deceiving-  everyone thought Ted Bundy was a nice preppy young man, the kind of guy most parents would love their daughter to bring home,

the biggest drinker and driver in our town is a judge and he gets away with it precisely because no cop would dare give him a ticket

he may not be a partyer/drinker but he may be addicted to gambling,  my own 67 year old aunt has become addicted to slots and she's got my mother going with her

Someone mentioned that months ago an American tourist went missing, the parents came to aruba and nothing was found till a week later she showed up, appearently spending time with some Arubian lover... I can't seem to find any info other the post.

and i am sorry I know from my own very frequent observations, when the wives are away, the husbands will play........

Gerben, i have a question for you - a bit muddled perhaps but here goes:

if there is no body or forensic evidence
if there is nothing really in the way of emails, SMS or other communication that implicates any of the suspects
is there any likelihood that there will be no one charged, the suspects will all be released and the investigation will fail?

could we possibly looking at a scenario where this does not get resolved?

Please continue to post - I must be dense - I didn't even realize someone had been offensive to you!  I appreciated your post.  thanks

heck I'm a former lawyer, law students and lawyers can drink as good as anyone else......

now i really got to go, take care kids, let's hope this day brings this case closer to a resolution

thanks, Comananzi - that would be Amy Bradley i think. she worked on a cruise ship that docked in Aruba and she disappeared. the official explanation was that she fell over board, but to my knowledge there has been no trace of her.

From http://www.hasibokos.com:

"The justice department suspects the Dutch judge, Paul van der S. (53), of accessory to murder, manslaughter or kidnapping with dead as consequence."




That sure doesn't leave much room for good news.