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Where is everybody? I'm so 'refreshed' but no one here to notice!

Having lived through the Hargon case here, we kept hope alive that it was almost impossible that someone could do away with an entire family and that they were just out of town or whatever, because the clues at first were so few and far between.We have to keep hope alive now that Nat will be home soon one way or another.

so dear ole dads in the pokey, too.  Why?

Apparently his story and the evidence they have to this point do not match up.

That's probably all we can conclude.

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momto5 wrote:
Im actually more greatful now to be an american then before. Someone last night said on cnn if it happened here they wouldnt be in jail. There has to be probable cause, and they implied there was simply suspicion (atleast thats what aruban govt is saying). Im not saying they are innocent. Im just saying that I prferably would like to see someone held on something more then pure suspicion. That leaves alot of room for false arrest (again not saying in this case but in general look at the security guards for instance). As a citizen in our country I am GLAD they dont just get to go and arrest someone on pure suspicion. JMO

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Got to agree with you on this.....it's scary to think you can be arrested for pure suspicion. I do like the American system a lot better. But I also think the American system would have used more tactics than the Arubian system does......like a polygraph?? A polygraph might not be useable in court, but it does help investigators weed out the wrong leads from good leads.

Could someone give me a short summary of what Greta said last night - I don't get FOX

short???

Yep here they would have polygraphed everyone they suspected. Granted our system is flawed, but there isnt a full proof 100% guaranteed system anywhere in the world. I just enjoy my rights is all. It is nice to know that police arent going to come to my house at 6am and arrest me because someone said they saw me do something, or bc I happened to be somewhere with someone. All in all we dont know whats happening in this case. We just know they are holding people under suspicion. I certainly hope they have more evidence, but honestly we dont know.

I didnt watch greta last night. Wish i could help. My husband had a monopoly on the playstation2 in our room. How dare he right? lol.

Well - important point or 2 - anything stand out?

My belief is that they have SOME evidence and what they are hearing from the 5 contradicts this evidence, HENCE:  Suspiscion

One has to get their priorities straight!

Yep and the whole time hes asking "So whats new with the case?". I told him well if I could watch the news I wouldnt have to read about it sheesh. Seriously though I guess we cant all be glued 24/7 to the news and this site. In fact I am going to have to pry myself away sometime soon and get my daughter a present. Her bday is monday  :lol:

Joran didn't have to do with what?  What did Joran do after he left the club with Natalee and the Kalpoes?  I don't know, you don't know.

 Maybe Joran did not do anythng more than have Natalee pass out on him.  He left her there  She never showed up at her hotel room and nobody who is talking noticed until the next morning.  

Joran was embarrassed and lied.   He would have been better off not saying anything when confronted by the cops and the family.  Our little story would have been neater.  I would say Joran has plenty of reason to lie, since he lied in the beginning and was caught out.  we don't know how many story changes there have been.  We have no access to the investigative file.  

For me, it is hard to imagine a scenario in which Joran would kill Natalee by himself.  Murder is just too extreme for the imaginable circumstances involving Natalee and Joran alone.  Either it was an accident, or something happend to Natalee after Joran left.  Joran is under arrest and under intense pressure to confess a crime he may not have committed.  The cops are not looking for the truth, but a confession.  If Joran did not do anything to Natalee he can't confess, so he has to keep feeding the cops stories.  That is the same thing a captured military person would do to avoid revealing sensitive information  The Arubans desperately need to solve the crime and have already rushed to judge the wrong guys once.  Absent a body and evidence, they could be grasping at straws again and the stakes are now much higher.  

There is a logical explanation for this but it is not that Joran killed her and then he and others disposed of her body to cover it up.  It could have happend that way but it would not make sense.

For a breather....try this FOX article by Greta Van Susteren about a monkey near the parents home:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160602,00.html

I thought it was a hoot when a neighbor accused a FOX staff member of wiring the monkey so that FOX could pick up converstations at the parents. ROTFLOL

Yeah that was pretty funny.Paranoia at it's best!

Thats a very touching story, but Joran killed natalie, lied to authorities 3times and asked his friends to help substantiate a false alibi.  Try again.

From a cable news insider blog:

Thursday Ratings: In Aruba, Greta Has Her Highest-Rated Show Of 2005
Greta Van Susteren's ratings continue to rise: On Thursday she averaged 2,803,000 viewers, making it her highest rated show of 2005.

FNC's primetime more than triple CNN again last night, averaging 2,696,000 viewers, which ranks as FNC's second highest rated primetime of 2005. (The #1 night was the State of the Union.)

10pm: Greta: 2,803,000 / NewsNight: 535,000 / Scarborough: 280,000 / Grace repeat: 327,000 / Deutsch: 97,000 (scratch

I've been lurking for days but time to speak my mind.  First, I'm growing to like the Dutch justice system.  In fact, I think we should retry OJ and MJ over there.  The second thought is much darker.  Could this possibly have been a snuff movie project?  I read where Joran supposedy was selling porn movies of a gangbang.  Thought it strange both moms in Greta's interviews said police took CD's.  Remember hearing years ago that the underground snuff movies were growing and big bucks.  Just a terrible thought. :(

To me only the strongest of fears would keep people silent if they are silent.  So they are guilty and fear the punishment, or they know that whoever has her or whoever harmed her deals out results that are worse that prison--perhaps even involving threats to the families.  Going public as families may even be part of the requirement in second case--to ensure that the bad guys know that the families are not going to divulge the information either.

But the first explanation is the simple one--and therefor probably the truth.

Snuff movies, while thought to be real, are urban legend.  Check here:

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/snuff.htm

i will prompt my Natalee addled mind to give some of Greta,  she talked to Joran's lawyer and Kalpoes lawyer.  Joran's lawyer explained the law. Kalpoe lawyer was a little less forthcoming.  Both vouched for paul van der sloot who they know as decent and professional.  Both refused to discuss their case or anybody else's case.  Both said their clients are holding up.   nothing else comes to mind.  you may be able to get a transcript form fox online.  i have never done it but some have.

no, just look at the facts presented so far.  Its really a simple case of a guy going to far and killing a girl and trying to cover it up.

Razzy, the problem is that there are very few "facts" to be had. What little we do know gets contradicted constantly.

Sandy - this is the FOX page where Greta's transcripts are:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160562,00.html

THe most up-to-date transcript showing is the Thursday transcript. But I would check back later in the day, as they will probably update the page to last night's transcript. Hope that helps.

Just the fact that Joran Lied 3 times and tried to concoct a false alibi tells you pretty much everything you need to know or at least points you in a very specific direction. Innocent people dont change their story 3 times and get friends to lie for them if they didnt do anything wrong.

Razzy, actually that's subjective, not specific for the 3 times lying. The only time I have anyone I'd remotely believe on camera say that the Joran's story has changed is one Mrs. VSD, and that's recent.  Anything else that's reported is subject to validity when the authorities in Aruba actually release the details of what has transpired in the timeline.

RB thanks for that quick info.  Now I can put that terrible thought aside.

RB.....
SCARED MONKEYS IS CRANKING!!!!!
on 6/18 there were 378,199 visitors since 2/05
on 6/25 there have been 634,045.....

u guys deserve a big bunch of banannas!!!!!!

P.s.   Is Kerin a man???  that was my strange dream last night...a guy wearing a KERINTX shirt at the mall.... more coffe please!!!

Good Morning Monkeys...coffee's on!!

Joran said they dropped her off at the holiday inn, lie number 1
Then changed to we dropped them off at the mariott.
Then joran said he called Satish to pick him up then Satish called him a liar then he changed it to Deepak.
Then joran finally admitted to being with her on the beach.

This all comes from fox news, if all this is subjective then we know nothing at all and can assume nobody has even been detained.

 

I do not know where you get your information.  I can't imagine where you get your insider information.  Are you the Dutch prosecutor handling the case?  Of course Joran is changing his story becasue he lied on the first try.  Too bad he was not professionally interrogated.  Then, we think, at some later time, he was finally professionally interrogated and told another story.  We don't know what that is either.  Has it changed, we do not know.  Is it the same one he told his mom?  We don't know.  

We can speculate until the cows come home, but hey, if we knew, the case would already be solved!  Oh, by the way, how did he kill her and what did he do with the body?  .

Good morning, Alt :)  Have we seen anything new reported on Fox?  I haven't turned the tube on yet.  Enjoying my coffee in peace and quiet :)

I haven't followed all the threads closely, but wondering what ever happened with the two topics:

1.  What about the man who supposedly checked into the HI the same day that NH did, but there is no record of his leaving the island?

2.  What about the other people that were under suspicion? Wasn't there a kid that was supposedly a half brother to Joran, a child born prior to his current marriage?  

3. Did NH have a laptop with her? Did police/FBI check her computer to see if she was emailing anyone on ARuba, particularly current suspects?

4. Did anyone ever find out whether there was any connection between the suspects and the man who was beheaded?


5. I've read that Beth H Twitty has been seen at the far end of the island two days in a row, leading to suspicion that there is a ransom being paid. Is there any truth to this rumor?  Is she just searching that end of the island for signs of her daughter, or is there any real evidence of a ransom note? I believe that it was a barber that indicated a ransom had been paid.  Anyone confirming that?

It's reported from Fox news - and I correct my post:  I've only seen 2 people confirm that there has been a change in stories from the trio:  Mrs VDS and Mrs. Kalpoe.  Other than that, there really is no substantiative proof how many times they changed their stories.  Your post reads like it happened 3 times when it could have happened countless times and we don't know it.  That's all I'm saying.

anything wrong yes, murder no.  leaving natalee on the beach does not make you a murderer.

Thanks, FOM :)  You see anything new at all today about the case?

Ive studied enough murder cases to know where this one is going.  He probably accidently suffocated or strangled her.

Ive studied enough murder cases to know where this one is going. He probably accidently suffocated or strangled her.

You've studied enough to have formed your own opinion.  Good for you!  However, I think some of us would rather keep an open mind.  We can agree to disagree, yes?

Sandy asked: "Could someone give me a short summary of what Greta said last night - I don't get FOX"

I taped Greta, and just watched this am...found these things interesting:

Linda Holloway Allison w/ Greta: re father arrested in complicity, Linda: our understanding of dutch law is they list all possibilities of what the crime might be, and then once they obtain enough evidence then they determine which one of those they'll file changes on...
Greta: "are you certain they've looked at all posibilities", reponse: family believes three boys are the last seen with Natalee, continue to hope they find out through them what happened....they hear alot... story has changed... If they were telling the truth, there should only be one story and that would all there would be to it.  Joran sneaking out to go the casino...don't know evidence.

Ricardo Yarzagaray, aruban attorney, probably said something important...will have to wait for transcript...background music distracting...Village People song - i think.

Inteview with mama Kalpoe...

Gretas tour of known events of the evening:  CNCs leaving at 1:00, ends with beach but reiterates no known evidence or witnesses.

No it doesn't, but why would he leave her if she passed out, why not take her back to her hotel.  Not very gentlemanly of him.  The only thought I have on this is he is guilty of something, being it giving her drugs and/or raping her.  I have a hard time understanding why he just left her there, but who knows if this story is true.

Fox news reported when they put the 3 boys in the room together the stories started to fall apart.  Joran said I called Satish to pick me up then Satish said "why are you lying i didnt come pick you up" then Joran said ok I called Deepak to pick me up..Now we are hearing that he was on the beach with her.

Hi RB..haven't looked at the tube yet either..way way too much scotch last night and can't hear anything this morning..lol

 

the two mothers are telling us their sons told them one thing initially (the same thing Joran told the Alabama delegation in the front yard) and then changed that (apparently after they were arrested).   The two mothers are first hand accounts.  We have no others from named sources.

Welcome, pawleys island girl  Thanks for the summary!  Do you mind if we use it elsewhere?  Always looking for good summarizers, and we can refer new folks to it to catch up....

 

that joren is a gentleman has already been discarded long since.  that he has murdered someone has not yet been established.

True, DAG.  being a cad doesn't necessarily make someone a murderer.  However, if something accidently happened (the whole mixing alcohol/some substance thing), and he left her there rather than get help, I believe he can be culpable for that.

FOX reported that some of the suspects are due in court today at 3:00, and that there will be a lot more news after that.  The Texas search team will start today.  The agreement with Aruba is gthat the search team will in no way be subsidized by Aruba.

When did this report happen?  I ask this because I'm sure we'l need to be prepared for the flood of traffic...

Within the past half hour.

Actually, the monkey is in the employ of a sister company. We will have no names, but its initials are SM

Yes, glad to contribute something...y'all are amazing. Keep the lights burning!

arrabba, thank you very much. :)  Did you hear whether it will be all the suspects, or a specific select few?  And did they say who they were?

Nicely said.
I am sorry but the fact of the matter is NO ONE knows what happened. We can sit all day and speculate and come up w/ theories based on "inside sources" being reported by the media. All in all we dont even know that the source isnt a janitor who works at the police dept overhearing watercooler gossip.
I do believe that it will probably turn into a simple story and nothing outlandish, but at this point no one knows! I will reserve the right to cast judgement on any of the suspects. I will wait for facts to come out. When and if they find her (dead or alive) then maybe we might know what happened. At this point tho if shes dead not much evidence may be gained. Yes I have my theories but thats all they are.

I do not know if this made the board, but they have brought a new judge in from Holland for the 3 pm hearing. The conventional wisdom is that the present judge has heard too much evidence that the Royal Court needs fresh eyes on this case.

Okay, I'm coming out of lurk mode.  Amazing what a few cups of joe will make you do.
What is up with the "need a body" "don't need a body" for a convinction?  When asked yesterday evening if, under Dutch Law, a body was necessary for a convinction - G said she did not know and that all the attorneys she had spoken to on the island did not know either.
I've done a good bit of (fruitless) searching.  Did come across some International Law by the UN that said you didn't have to have a body for a convinction if the evidence you did have was enough to prove the person was dead (i.e. 5 quarts of blood at a crime scene when the human body has about 6).
Any good information out there?

I thought they said all, but i'm not positive.  They are reporting live from Aruba this morning.  I will listen more closely to the next report and post here right away.

You're a gem :)  Thank you again and look forward to the update.

Yet anotherday in the search Natalee Holloway

I just wondered we are all argumenting that Joran is guilty , are argument not supported by facts.

Untill now I have not seen one fact that supports that Joran is guilty.

And remember no body no case !

The foxnews statement" procecuters names crimes where suspects aree suspected off ) where everyone was so emotional and excited about yesterday is nothing new , has been published on various news sources days before fox came with this statement.
In fact Fox is the big winner here.

My opinion is that shes dead and joran is directly responsible for her death.  I dont need fox news to tell me that.

I think PVDS's 48 hours are up, and they will extend that or let him go....

Woooo.  That's a big change. The whole our-civil-servant-may-be implicated has gotten some attention, has it?

Does anyone else find it interesting that Paul VDS was at the Holiday Inn casino when Joran first met Natalee? I don't think we knew that until last night. It could be that Dad summoned his son to meet up with Natalee at C&C's, slip her a mickey and bring her back to HIM (Paul) at the beach.
Deepak's mother said her son told her Natalee was falling asleep in the back seat. The mother also imitated this by dropping her head as though she was falling asleep.

Natalee sees the Dad at the beach, freaks out and something bad happens.

The whereabouts of Paul VDS are not known, his wife was out of town and his only alibi is he was home sleeping.

Just speculating......

Greta said last night it would be the three original boys in court today. I believe.
The judge will be flown in again from Curacos.

Another tidbit from FOX - they are bringing in a new judge to preside over the case.  Aruba wants to maintain impartiality and want a new judge to review whether there is enough evidence to further detain the suspects.

Thank Goodness, now maybe we will finally get somewhere!MAYBE

Accidental!?!?!
I have never heard of someone accidentally suffocating or strangling someone they were making out with.  If this is a common problem, I'm definitely not dating any more...lmao....

Obviously if Joran is finally telling the truth about the two of them being alone on the beach and she died, then he is a murderer.  He can make up all the excuses and stories he can come up with, but he was with her last, so we know who is responsible.

From looking at his size in pictures and his being an athlete, I'm sure he could silence her if she screamed....forever.  I think the others disposed of her body.

If these people go free, then Americans will  curtail going to Aruba on vacation.  I cannot believe they will not use lie detectors to get the truth out of these liars.  The Aruban police have been complicit in not recovering Natalee's body and they have impaired the investigation by making forensics impossible without her body.  I think lie detectors should be required when it comes to recovering a living person or their deceased body.  What if she were alive in the beginning, but because of time, is deceased now.  Then many people are responsible for not using technology in finding her.  What kind of justice system is this...that we do not value a life as much as we value prosecution of a murder?  I say use lie detectors, truth serum, anything that will find a missing person.  This is what people want and expect from law enforcement!

sorry 'bout the spelling - insert conviction please!

MsPooh, I think that's a double edged sword.  Won't it be something if this takes a swing in a major opposite direction and if some (maybe not all, but some) suspects are released?

(http://img224.echo.cx/img224/4683/sashas15thbdaypartypart20068jf.jpg)

If this image links okay, it comes from another website that clipped images from news stories.  I think it is weird that Joran's mother is wearing such a see through blouse. Isn't that strange for someone her age?  Do you think she is trying to keep Paul home, or is it indicative of some strange relation with her son, and maybe a reason that he hates women?  Has anyone else drawn psych. conclusions on why a 17 year old would make videos of a gang rape and then sell them?  Has anyone investigated this "pimp" term that he and the brothers used to describe themselves on their websites?

there has been only one dutch case so far where a conviction was granted without a body and that was where a drug dealer admitted in a letter that he had killed this missing person.  Its not likely to convict under dutch law without a body, but not implausible if there is direct and undisputable evidence.

I believe she was drugged; it's after that things get very unclear....and this is certainly a possibility in my book.

KEY WORD:  accidentaly.

We can also speculate that she died of say alcohol poisoning, reaction with alcohol and another medication she was on, aspiration of vomit, drugs someone else administered before the boys showed up.

 I heard all 5.

getting offt opic here but...our fellow monkey.....
DJ TAYLOR IS IN LABOR! SHE WENT TO THE HOSPITAL THIS MORNING AT ABOUT 1.45!! WISH HER LUCK W/ HER FIRST BABY!

With all do respect dublin , I can not see what the bluse of Mrs. Anita van der Sloot has to do with the case ?

Thank you AIA.  :)  How about if I create a well wishes thread for DT and everyone can post their congrats to her there?  That way she can get it when she gets back....

1.  Strange...No - it is a fabric like gauze - quite popular, and the result was not intended at all!
2.  NA
3.  No...Gangster-style lingo that is popular with teens these days.  I was quite surprised by that myself, until informed by others I am hopelessly out of date.

]
Joran probably learned his behaviors from his father.  In the Greta interview Mrs VDS was said as asking her son why he was out so late on a school night and he stated Mom if you had never gone to holland I would have never went out that night.  So hes trying to shift his behavior on his mother and give her extreme guilt.  What a  nice guy he is.

accidentally suffocated someone?

oh.. so maybe like he was so huge that the weight of his body crushed her when he passed out on top of her?  :)


I can't picture any reasonable way you "accidentally" suffocate someone.

He may have "accidentally" overdosed her with slipping a date rape drug into her cocktail.  But, is it then really an accident? What was the intent of using the date rape drug, but "rape" either at his own "hand" or someone elses...

I try to look at things with an impartial eye.  To help in that endeavor I try to switch things around and imagine that an American boy was last seen with an Aruban girl.  I examine how my thoughts about the situation changes.  When i do this my thoughts closely match Iquitos posts.

I think more than one deadline is up and judge will rule on all of them.  it is a new judge, not the same one who interogated the three, again brought in from curacao.  It will probably be a long night.

That's a reasonable, solid approach IMO.

cover her mouth to keep her from screaming.

Aww best of luck to her!

THANK YOU SO MUCH! THAT WOULD BE GREAT!

Wow - do you think they aren't happy with the present judge detaining one of the judges-to-be??? (PVDS)

Wonder what kind of impact this will have, as "needing fresh eyes on the case" sounds like spin to me.

It's a moral interpretation wriggling thru this at times, isn't it?

That's what I am saying, could this be a case of "can't see the forest for the trees"????

I wonder what the average education level is of the people who visit this blog

Can someone fill me in really quickly on what's been happening?

There is no such word in the English language.  While I appreciate your desire for Joran to get off, most people think he murdered her.  I think he has a violent side.  His own mother said she tries to talk with him when he kicks his brothers.  He is a big person.  I do not think he respects women either.  So more likely, he strangled her to shut her up.

Joran killed natalie,tried to cover it up and the texas search team hopefully will find her soon. thats basically it.

AIA, so thanks for the update.  We missed you and had been worried about her.

 did he cite a source.  i heard on one of the news channels last night that the new judge was coming in from curacao.  the old jude is taking up a position in the caribbean court of justice.  that is why he is leaving.

That's my point, he has to be culpable of something, you just wouldn't leave someone like that unless you are guilty of something.

IN the pictures I've seen of Joran, he really does have an evil look. Anyone else notice this? :?

Wait, how do you know? He admitted to it?

How do we know Paul vdS was at the Holiday Inn when Joran met Natalee? Please tell me the source and/or link. I know there was speculation, but I hadn't heard confirmation.

No, I don't think the son brought Natalee for Dad. Why would he summon Deepak and Satish to go with him to CnC's?

It is possible Paul was gambling, or who knows, was with a mistress that night, and that's why his story doesn't match up.

I think so too, my original comment about an accident was just trying to keep an open mind.  Hes a big guy and he probably wanted to have sex with her and she didnt want to.

I think he looks like Frankenstein without the neck bolts.

I think you'd have to cover the nose and mouth, and for several minutes, and beyond the point at which she lost consciousness.  It takes 4 minutes with a lack of oxygen to die. So, if that scenario were true, he had to have gone way beyond trying to keep her from screaming.


I also think the image of the mother is very revealing. I just can't picture the mother of an 18 year old going to any party dressed in such a revealing top with a white bra showing through it.  There are slips, camisoles etc., and she is the wife of a judge. I do think it may reveal something about the dysfunction within the family and could lead to some speculation about the son's emotional disturbance. [/quote]

o.k. sorry but this topic is like beating a dead horse, we have hashed it all out too much..whew thinking very deep this morning aren't we Dublin?O.k. I was watching Britney and Kevin and after their wedding all the guys in the wedding party were wearing sweats with the word "pimp" on the back, does that make them all bad people? I don't think so..the word "pimp" I think these days is the same as "cool" for a guy.

I could only see one real scenario for accidental suffocation.  He is huge and she is tiny.  If she was so inexperienced with sex that she did not know to turn her head sideways so she could breath, his chest could have sealed off her breathing for too long and he might not have even realized.  Of couse I would be biting someone to get them to move, but if she were drugged or had blacked out, that also could have her suffocate under his size.

I just don't think it was accidental suffocation.

No but im just trying to keep everybody focused on whats the most likely scenario.

Razz was being obnoxious. nothing has changed.

RAZZ MBHS is a friend of Natalee's, be nice.

Geraldo live at 10:00 tonight on FOX

mbhs05, that is just Razzy's take on the whole situation.  There is really no new news this morning.  The Texas Seach team is out and a new judge will be talking to the 3 boys today.  News to some out at 2:00 our time.

But, they don't make and sell gang rape videos do they?

[/quote]

There are shirts in certain lights that will be more revealing at times.  Mrs VDS probably saw that picture and said OMG I didnt know you could see my bra in the bright lights.

I thought he wasn't in Aruba anymore :?  :?

I'm glad a new judge is talking to them...maybe he'll be more successful in questioning them.

I don't know about that, Dublin.  Plenty of women have a fashion sense issue :)  Doesn't make them dysfunctional, it makes them perhaps a tad naive.

Also, I have to mention that the word dysfunction applied to this family may not, IMO, be correct used in a context we're familiar with.  I've seen rampant the posts condemning the VSD father and son for gambling, for example, but going to the casino is something that may be accepted as the norm there, isn't it?

It was stated that they wanted "fresh eyes" to look at the case.

Dad sees pretty girl at Casino, knows he can't get a young girl for himself, sends son (player) to meet her. Son goes to C&C, drugs her, brings her to Dad waiting at the beach. Nat's drugged, but has enough sense to see an older man waiting, freaks out, he kills her.

Son lies to cover for Dad.

We still don't know how Joran got home that night. It could be that he didn't need a ride because Dad was with him all along.

Again, just speculating.......

yes indeed I agree might he be devil himself or sent from hell to destruct lives ?

Maybe we should make a poll? hehe

Hey ya'll-I do want to clear something up, because people keep thinking I'm a close friend of hers, and I'm not. I am a classmate, and I'm friends with her friends, but I'm not really a friend of Natalee...we're just aquaintances.

I seriously doubt Mrs VDS meant to wear a blouse such as this. In fact, it was probably the flash of the cam. Plain silly for anybody to think she purposely did this. She ain't no movie star..........LOL...... :wink: I think part of Joran's problem is that he likes women way too much, which I believe is normal for a boy of his age. Porn video is a rumor, and pimp is a term a lots of young men use. Even older ones....

Live in Aruba.

 I dont either but when you say he did something on purpose, people here freak out.
I only stuck the word accident in there to make them think I was giving him the benefit of the doubt which I dont.

There are shirts in certain lights that will be more revealing at times.  Mrs VDS probably saw that picture and said OMG I didnt know you could see my bra in the bright lights.[/quote]

Yeah I'm sure she didn't know it would show like that until she saw the pictures. And I'm sure it wasn't that bad without the flash.

Dublin is stating that elder woman are not allowed to ware see trough blouses as it might be suspicious , help me remind my mother not to where these

lets ot be juvenile about this.  please post your picture so i can see who you look like

Men may come up with all different excuses or legal ways out for Joran, but most women know that the men are responsible for her disappearance.  We may not know exactly how they carried it out.  But we know they should be made to tell where her body is and punished.  We do not care which country the woman or man is from.  We know they did away with her, because her life or death wasn't as important to them as covering their sleezy asses.
If a Dutch judge is sent to Aruba, it is more likely to get PVDS off.  If I were an Aruban politician, I would be furious!  I will never visit Holland either!

On the bra thing, it just happens with some fabrics and lights.  Remember that one of the daughters of Kerry had a revealing photo that was making the rounds.  Pretty much the same thing--I am sure she did not even know it would photograph that way until the picture hit the press.

Most women don't take a picture before we wear something.


The interesting thing though is that Joran or someone put that picture out in public.  Has to be a way to make fun of his mom.

Thanks, MB, nice to see you again.

Razzy, you wish to keep people focused on your opinion.  Others have theirs.  We'll take care of the topic in this thread and you continue believing what you believe - others have a right to their views too.

I do! I hope all goes well! :D  :D  :D

If you read the quotes from the news where Joran blamed his mother for all this since she was in Holland, and he wouldn't have gone to the club if she'd been home, then you'll see what I mean by dysfunctional.

If you read the profiler's description of the type of person who'd have committed this murder, and then look at the family, you may see some similarities and perhaps look at the family's dysfunction as a source of the problem.

That is your most likely scenario, everyone is entitled to an opinion..you know opinions are like noses..everyone has one..

Dublin, that's a reasonable reply and I can buy that.  I'll take a gander and see if changes what I'm thinking...

Well you know more then we do , wich facts can you present us to conclude that joran has killed natalee.

What a wonderful, exciting time for her, please keep us informed.  Prayers for DJ Taylor and precious angel to come.

Without taking up space doing all those long quotes......


I agree with those who recognize that flash photography could be responsible for the see-through blouse on Mrs.VDS.

Second, has it ever been established that JVDS ever made a video of a 14 yr old girl?? I thought is was something Geraldo came out with that was later retracted.

Well, I agree with that. It is possible she was unaware, but why did the son put it out there. I guess I'm hinting at the possibility that there is something going on in the family for him to dislike women as much as he seems to.  Why was he dating a 13 year old. If he was as successful at school and athletics as people say, then why weren't there girls his own age that he could go out with?  Why date a 13 year old, unless perhaps he was able to manipulate her more easily.

In my case a 4 yr degree plus some grad school. I see no reason to insult anyone, if that was your insinuation. If not I will apologize.

Dublin, you're pointing a "respect" issue between son and mother correct?

where did i say they didnt?

It's just a rumor as of now.

Do you have a link to the story? I thought she blamed herself for not being there i didnt know he blamed her? I must have heard wrong.

Another lurker stepping out.....I doubt Natalee would have to be drugged..Yoran had been hanging around with her and her friends and she probably trusted him as a lot of people would have.

Yes. There seems to be something wrong with his relationships with women, and I can only surmise that it has to originate at home.

puleeze! do you know where the picture came from?  i do, and joran did not post it.

absolutely they do, google the Haidl case in CA for one. They didn't even sell the video, they just passed it around buddies for fun----until someone forgot and left it in a VCR in a hotel room to be found by a stranger who then reported it.

Its the greta interview with his mother, right after her husband walked inside to answer the phone she told that part of the story.

Dublin, I can sort of see that.  And as I think someone else just posted, I'm not sure if Joran put a guilt trip on Momma, or if she put a guilt trip on herself. Can someone check the Fox transcripts and see if it's clear one why or the other?

I wish people would stop making such a big deal out of this picture.  I think it's tasteless to keep posting this picture.  This woman obviously did not know how sheer this blouse was or she would have worn different undergarments.  I'm sure she would be horrified if she knew this picture was making its rounds on the internet.  I can't understand why, if she knows about this picture, it was not destroyed.  That's what I would do, or at the very least cut the picture in half.  And if it's digital I'd delete the whole thing.

Please give this a break.

Amen - she went willingly.

That's what I was thinking, the picture surfaced awhile after this all started, and if I remember correctly it was more of a HAHA thing than just showing a family picture.

HEar Hear I agree 100 procent , with the facts we have at our dispossal , one cannot acuse joran of murdering anyone ,

quote="iquitos"]Joran didn't have to do with what?  What did Joran do after he left the club with Natalee and the Kalpoes?  I don't know, you don't know.

 Maybe Joran did not do anythng more than have Natalee pass out on him.  He left her there  She never showed up at her hotel room and nobody who is talking noticed until the next morning.  

Joran was embarrassed and lied.   He would have been better off not saying anything when confronted by the cops and the family.  Our little story would have been neater.  I would say Joran has plenty of reason to lie, since he lied in the beginning and was caught out.  we don't know how many story changes there have been.  We have no access to the investigative file.  

For me, it is hard to imagine a scenario in which Joran would kill Natalee by himself.  Murder is just too extreme for the imaginable circumstances involving Natalee and Joran alone.  Either it was an accident, or something happend to Natalee after Joran left.  Joran is under arrest and under intense pressure to confess a crime he may not have committed.  The cops are not looking for the truth, but a confession.  If Joran did not do anything to Natalee he can't confess, so he has to keep feeding the cops stories.  That is the same thing a captured military person would do to avoid revealing sensitive information  The Arubans desperately need to solve the crime and have already rushed to judge the wrong guys once.  Absent a body and evidence, they could be grasping at straws again and the stakes are now much higher.  

There is a logical explanation for this but it is not that Joran killed her and then he and others disposed of her body to cover it up.  It could have happend that way but it would not make sense.[/quote]

aww ok. I saw the report must have misunderstood. For some reason I took it as she was saying it wouldnt have happened if she had been there. Which I sorta found smug, but if he said it then that is different.

is everyone forgetting about the mcdonald's thing way earlier...it's not open at 3am on the island.

mrs VDS said "i asked my son why was he out so late on a school night" and she said my son said ' you know mom.. I would never have even thoguht about going out if you had been home that night"

Well, I found it here:

http://www.geocities.com/proud_college_republican/

There are several there that seem to be from Sasha's 15th birthday party.  Like this one:
http://img224.echo.cx/img224/4583/sashas15thbdaypartypart20030ai.jpg
http://img224.echo.cx/img224/4583/sashas15thbdaypartypart20030ai.jpghttp://img76.echo.cx/img76/6931/x1pnprgmi5o51c53k3wlvbv9jlr2ij.jpg

edited to remove pics - url's instead RB

THank you jessica !!!

Actually no we're not.  There's apparently some speculation that perhaps a video camera at MickyD's may have caught someone in the parking lot.  That's speculation which came up here last night, and seems plausible.

all you amateur psycholgists out there.  if everyone who has mom and dad issues out there were driven to murder we would have a lot of dead people on our hands.  please, if you do not know of what you speak quit demonizing and personalizing.  we diss the mother's dress because we suspect the son?  what kind of sixth grade (if that) game is this?

A Bachelor's and working on another degree at this time. I don't think that posting at this message board has any bearing on the intelligence of this group. Basically Natalee has touched hearts and most of us want to know what happened to her and understand how something like this could happen....not to mention.....see her home so her family can get their lives back together or grieve if the worst is true.

THank you jessica !!!

ah, out in the parking lot. okie dokie.

Dublin - since we'll be pretty busy traffic wise later in the day, do you mind editing the pics out of the body of your post and linking them instead?  It'll help us in the traffic/volume area...

Something still bothers me,,,,there are so many "hotel rooms" ...I wonder if all the hotels have been checked...

I know for a fact that some hotel employees are not honest and can be up to no good...There are plenty of places to hide someone in a large resort hotel.  Any ideas?

Mrs VDS's pic has been all over TV  only it was cropped...

Yes Dublin very suspicious foto indeed , might that be the missing clue we are all looking for.



Edited to remove pics - RB

The simplest and most straightforward explanation is that Joran gave Natalee a date-rape drug, took her to a beach and had sex with her, where he either murdered her or she OD'd. You may not WANT to believe it, and there may be other POSSIBLE explanations for Natalee's disappearance, but that is still the most believable scenario.

MominTN, why precisely do you think that a Dutch judge would set PvdS free? Because he also used to be a substitute judge? Because they're both from the Netherlands? I'm not trying to confrontational, I'm just wondering. Because I don't think that a (former) U.S. judge would always be helped by another U.S. judge if he did a criminal act.

According to the newspapers, PvdS is not talking at all, all five suspects have to be in court today, like inquitos said.

I can also now tell you that it's 5km from Fisherman's Huts to Montanja, and JvdS could not cut through because of the swamp. He would be risking breaking his neck in the dark without a flashlight.

C&C is still going strong, I know that I believe that they are not to blame, but still, it's a bit freaky, like nohting happened.

When I dropped my friend home yesterday night the mondi (shrubs) in front of her house was on fire due to the fires that were all over the island yesterday because of Saint John's Day. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. They were able to put it out, but it's a good thing that we came home when we did.

The picture of Mrs.VDS originally came from this online magazine:

http://album.pancayente.com/index.php?cat=0

Any other references to websites are copies!

PS.....if you are linking directly to pictures on other sites...it's stealing that sites bandwidth. It would be better to load the picture to your own site for hotlinking or simply provide a link. Just thought you should know.

Perhaps it begins at home.  But I have known many Christian devoted good parents who had a child get into trouble.  Sometimes, they are doing things because of their peers or because of the influence of other things like from tv or movies.  Sometimes they start with a little rebellion by drinking or sex, and then they just go down hill doing worse things until they are really in trouble.  Drinking and drugs remove inhibitions and lead to bad judgement.  Porno movies plant bad ideas into people's brains.  The parents often want to believe the best about their kids.  So the kids can use this to their advantage and hide their immoral or illegal behavior.  All a parent can do is watch them as much as possible and restrict them from places where illegal activities take place.  However when a society makes prostitution legal, then what does this tell teenage boys about the value of sex or women?  Society is also responsible!

Well i do not believe in this scenario at all . Why is it the most believable scenario. Question why do you conclude date rap drug , why do you conclude drugs , why do you conclude sex , and why do you conclude sex on the beach which is a public place ?

The parking lot is open.

I don't necessarily think it is dissing the mom. It may be looking for root causes for a defect in the son.  

Honestly, her son is charged with a pretty heinous act, and not only her son but her husband as well.  

I feel bad for her, but I also think that if she thinks this was just something that occurred out of the blue then she is in denial.  


If her husband and son have been out frequently clubs together every time she goes away, then who stays home and watches the younger kids at home?  If husband and eldest son are out at casinos, gambling and womanizing together then don't you think it is their disrespect for her that should be questioned?

Curiosity, thanks.  It doesn't steal the forum's bandwidth so much that it counts as a "connection" - and each connection starts to pile up when we get busy.  That's why some of the CGI errors during peak periods occur.

No, the picture of Mrs. vdS originally came from one of Joran's website, either the MSN Spaces or the Tickle site.

Anyone out there. Have you ever gone to a 15 year old's party where they danced think Joran and that girl did? Am I missing something? Parent's did not put a stop to that? I know chaperones would put a stop to that at most proms! You are judged by your behavior right or wrong, I see why people don't have a problem bashing Joran

Can somebody please, please, please tell me which McDonald's everyone is talking about.

And I was wrong, there is a third McDonald's on the island. It's in Santa Cruz, almost dead center. Shame on me :oops:

 i recall there was a post from another site saying some mountain brook kids had seen mr van der sloot at mcdonalds 3 am on the morning Natalee went missing.  Poster's last name was Twitty.  we have an aruban source who says there are two mcdonald's and they both close at 1 am.  monkey brain power has long since discarded this one as rumor.  any mountain brookers on here know better?  p.s. anybody seen the latest people magazine?  poor natalee is people now.

This picture was taken at a fifteen year old girl's birthday party.  It was posted on someone's personal website or tickle site.  It's from the same set of picyures that show Joran "dirty dancing" with a young woman.

Anyone out there. Have you ever gone to a 15 year old's party where they danced think Joran and that girl did?

It happens all the time. Even at proms. Chaperones and parents can't be everywhere...

Actually I've seen that kind of dancing at a Bat Mitzvah in 7th grade...it happens...and it doesn't mean the kids are bad. It's just another teenager thing...I think the only thing we really have to judge him on right now is his lying. The other things seem really typical to me.

Actaully it did from from the pancayente site. Sasha's 15 day.

Poor Sasha.

[/quote]

 HOLY COW..... just because this poor woman is lacking fashion sense does not indicate family dysfunction.......

Yes Dublin you are sooooo right father goes to casino son goes to casino mom stays at home Joran did it , yes her son has been charged already for a pretty heinous act, yes Dublin she is in denial wow this is very good.

 

you have to understand the cultural context to understand the picture.  if you don't, please refain from comment.  otherwise you betray your ignorance.

Last night Greta did a walk through of the significant places .... one place was the McDonald's where PVDS picked Joran up at 11 supposedly.  She said this is 4 blocks from the HI.  Hope that helps.

BTW, glad to see you here .... and thank you for all your input in this case.  I don't post a lot, but I find your posts very informative and interesting.

Here is the link to the entire party page. Notice that the picture in question is part of the group about eight rows down. Origjnally it was linkable from an online magazine.

http://album.pancayente.com/thumbnails.php?album=19


Edit....to look at all of the pictures, it appears this must have been a large event and why it made a local publication. It also appears that quite a few of Joran's pix that are posted on other sites on on this page.

 HOLY COW..... just because this poor woman is lacking fashion sense does not indicate family dysfunction.......[/quote]  like i say, if all family dysfunction led to murder we would need more cemeteries.

The parking lot is fairly visibile from the main road. But the drive through area / dumpster isn't.

WHAT???? :roll:

 HOLY COW..... just because this poor woman is lacking fashion sense does not indicate family dysfunction.......[/quote]  like i say, if all family dysfunction led to murder we would need more cemeteries.[/quote]

No kidding.

Parents were there and I think it is a sad state of affairs. I am certainly glad ballroom dancing is now required in New York City Schools. I hope the change will make young men start respecting girls again.

Whatcha the tone, folks. Play nice or I'll start the beatings until morale improves ;)

I agree with Razzberry. Let's face it, some folks only remind us that we are operating on rumor and speculation when they don't like our conclusions. And then they'll spend the rest of the day speculating on their own. RB, you would be better off just to post a caveat, every 15 minutes that this is ALL just rumor and conjecture. And leave it at that.

 HOLY COW..... just because this poor woman is lacking fashion sense does not indicate family dysfunction.......[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that the blouse she was wearing was pretty normal.  What you see is the result from using a flash.

 like i say, if all family dysfunction led to murder we would need more cemeteries.[/quote]

No kidding.[/quote]Lol. Ditto that.

The simplest and most straightforward explanation is that Joran gave Natalee a date-rape drug, took her to a beach and had sex with her, where he either murdered her or she OD'd. You may not WANT to believe it, and there may be other POSSIBLE explanations for Natalee's disappearance, but that is still the most believable scenario.[/quote]

Agreed. But where did he put the body? I believe PVDS helped Joran, but how is it that they disposed of the body without any witnesses? Most obvious explanation is Steve Croes and access to a boat? They could have dumped the body on the other side of the Island where the sea is rough/choppy.

You are aware that the girls do it too, right?
And no, I'm not a guy, I'm a girl.
But we dance with them because we want to...not because they just grab us and make us. It's an equal fault thing. I don't think dancing and "pimp"  and such are reasons to judge him.
It's the LYING that is such a big deal.

The pic of Mrs. vdS may have been on the pancayente site, but it was ALSO on Joran's site.

if dutch-bag was walking  what did he do with natelee   that really limits how you would get rid of a body   some one had to help    but the jackass might be tell the truth now   he left her on the beach(what a asshole)  it could be a random kidnapping   and if thats the case the cops might never figure out who did it (even LE in the USA almost never catch people that they can not conect to a case )but we are still back to if dutch-bag didn't do something to her  WHY ALL THE LIES?

Enlighten this ignorant person please....

Paige on Fox just said that all five suspects expect to go before a judge later today.

RB, I think you asked how many earlier, and I didn't see a reply - just got confirmation.

I agree with Razzberry. Let's face it, some folks only remind us that we are operating on rumor and speculation when they don't like our conclusions

No Professor, I don't like conclusions such as these when the tone of the post appears to want to force them down my, and others who perhaps have dissenting opinions, throat :)  Whether it's meant to be perceived that way or not, I don't know, but there it is.

They are saying that this is normal teen behavior...and not a reason to judge.

Mornin' Diva.

 :D

Thanks kshe. :)

mhb explained it very well, wantsanswers

So, if Joran and PVDS go to clubs together, are said to have both been seen at the casino that night, then PVDS picked up Joran at the McDonalds at 11 and they both went to the casino together?  

Otherwise, why were they calling the Kalpoe brother for a ride?  NH and JVDS didn't leave the club until around 1:00.  PVDS told police he took Joran home, and Joran has said he snuck out, but what if they have PVDS on video in the club after 11:00 pm that night?

I thought the report was that he went to pick Joran up at 3 am, but I've also seen a report that PVDS called Joran on his cell at 6 am, when he suspected he wasn't at home.

It really isnt that unusual. Like it or not times and dances have changed since we were in school. Ever watch MTV when they do spring break week? I dont even think its so a much a cultural difference as it is a generation gap. JMO

When Joran says he left Natalee on the beach, it doesn't necessarily mean he left her semi-conscious in the sand. I believe he may have meant they parted ways at the beach at the back entrance to the H.I.

Heard on FOX this morning --- the texas search team vows to stay in aruba until Natalee is found.

i think what professor means is that this is his best guess as to what happened, purely subjective, not based on fact, just his best guess.  In other words it is what he thinks.  thinking it and supporting it are two different propositions.

arubagirl In aruba if you drug someone and they die is that pre-meditated murder under aruba law? and  what kind of time do you get in jail for it?

Nothing has been forced down anyones throat, maybe thats your perception because the opinion just happens to be something you dont agree with.
Ive answered everyones sarcastic questions pointed at me with as much tact as I can without LOL and rolling eyes at their questions which was how they were presented to me.

There are "cultural" differences.  Which I suspect they will claim the images all having the two finger salute are also part of that cultural difference.  But, it was defined on here earlier and it is a disgusting symbol that is seen again and again in all of these photos.  One more way that he disses women.  It may be an imitation of the gangster look, but it doesn't make it right. I also wonder why all teens aren't effected by the need to imitate that gangster look.  All our teens are exposed to the same culture.

Oh, by the way, the TX already started searching yesterday. They searched Bubali plas (another swamp) and the dam behind JvdS's house.

Guess they didn't find anything.

I'm interested in hearing more about the guy Greta referred to who didn't return to the U.S.  She said there was a man who was on the plane to Aruba with NH and her group, that he stayed at the same HI, and there is no record of his returning to the US.  I find this intriguing but hesitant to start speculating on it.

Has anyone heard anything else mentioned about this?

Can someone clear up if PvdS was spotted at the Holiday Inn casino with Joran when he met Natalee, or is this just a rumor that has been repeated so often it is being accepted as fact?

And I am saying the lack of respect for women is what causes the lack of
self restaint either way.  When he has no problems acting like that in front of his parents, her parents, he has a sense of I can do what ever I want when I want.. Before you start bashing, I worked in a police dept for 10years in florida. I know the type.

Dublin, I can ASSURE you that the girls do not feel dissed in any way.

Good Morning All~~~~~
Has anyone heard anything on the man that flew into Aruba, checked into Natalee's hotel and mysteriously disappeared about the same time as Natalee?

Great said that PvdS was with JvdS earlier in the day at the casino, then P took J home at 11:00.

Can somebody explain that one to me? Bringing in a new judge, because the OLD judge has HEARD TOO MUCH EVIDENCE? Huh? I thought that's what judges were supposed to do. Hear evidence. What am I missing here?

Agreed. Most think it's cool and a compliment...unfortunately.
But it's still just normal teen stuff.

God knows when our kids mess up we are the first to blame ourselves, doesn't mean that we raised them wrong or that our families are dysfunctional but we will be the first to question every minute detail of where we may have went wrong, sometimes we can conclude that it is not something that we have done and we cannot put them in a bubble all their lives and never be exposed to anything...this is the feeling that I get from Jorans Mom.

Great said....

Uhhhh - why can't I type Greta correctly?

I didn't see Greta's report, but it may be the same story I saw a week or so ago.

This guy (adult) went to Aruba, I think he was a snorkeling or some other water sport fanatic. He checked into the hotel, and was never seen again. His family tried to search for him, but the Aruban authorities told them he probably just wanted to disappear.

I just asked the same question, LTL .... this little tidbit of info kept me awake last night.

Im guessing hes overwhelmed.  Maybe getting a second opinion.

It was reported last night on Great that PVDS was at the HI casino earlier that day with Jornan (when the Joran first met Nat).  According to Dad, he picked Joran up at the McD's at 11pm, went home and went to sleep. Joran snuck out, went to C&C's to meet Nat, asked Kalpoe bros for a ride after leaving C&C's with Natalee. Bros dropped them off at the Marriott beach.

I'm very curious to know if PVDS ever LEFT the HI casino. Since there is a rumor about him been seen at McD's at 3am and he, himself mentioned he picked his son up at McD's at 11pm.

Well I certainly wasn't bashing.
I'm a teenager, I'm just another kid, and I know these kinds of things are normal...just imitations of MTV and rap videos. It might be crass, but it's nothing to read into, really. That kind of dancing is extremely normal.

Would not swear to it,,but think it was "mentioned" that he was seen on the casino camera...and that he left Joran there and went home,,,came back for him at 11..??  This was a tv report...

I don't see a lot of information on it, but the actual story was that he was checked in to the HI the same day, there is no record of his leaving the island, but I didn't actually read that he was on the chartered flights.  THat may be false.  If he was on those flights, I think someone would have raised that issue.

Someone else could have come to the island and then have left by a cruise or small boat or be staying with friends, so wouldn't necessarily leave one to suspect foul play. I'm interested in knowing if more develops on that issue though.

Greta has come up with some great leads, so I assume if it was to pan out she'd follow it.

 like i say, if all family dysfunction led to murder we would need more cemeteries.[/quote]

No kidding.[/quote]

Why would she suspect any problem with Yoran when he was a good student, well liked and thought of and active in sports?  Doesn't sound to me like there are any warning signs there.  What a tragedy for all involved.

Razzy,

Don't take it personally, but some of your responses are more sarcastic than the opinion or the question.  You want to assume that Joran killed Nat and you don't wish to explore other possibilities.  IMO, that is pretty closed minded, but it's your opinion and you don't need to resort to sarcasm to express it.  I respect your opinion, but you need to respect others as well.

Charmz

LOL! me too!

'Cuz she's Greta the Great!! lol

Thank you for the info.

Denile isn't just a river in Egypt sweetie.  Unfortunately, she was probably unaware of half of what was going on with the men in her family.

They get new judges from Neth. Ant.  to make sure there is impartiality. They also did it in the Sydney Ponson case.(=idiot Aruban pitcher who works for Baltimore Orioles who decided to beat up a judge of all people)

I live in FL too, and some of the kids down here like to party and dance too...without a special occasion. But there is something not pointed out by this photo. It's a split second caught by the camera. WHo knows what the real action to this dance movement was. But it is really suspicious, I will admit as far as being "dirty dancing".

I think he killed her and Im not going to waiver from that.  If people want to ignore the facts that their choice but I dont LOL or roll my eyes at their posts. and I dont need a rescue squad because I stand by want I say.  People can think what they want I dont care.

dublin:  you start out with an unproven assertion that joran and father went to casinos together.  we have no source confirmation on that.  it is a rumor.  We know from somewhere that he picked joran up at mcdonalds.  remember Joran had been at a poker contest and had seen with natalee according to multiple witnesses.  no witnesses have come forward to say the old man was there with him  his parents say he sneaked out after the old man went to sleep.  we know he went to the club because he was seen there and it is speculated he left with natalee although i do not recall who actually saw that.  nobody has come forward to say the father was with him at the club.  there is no credible information that the old man picked joran up at 3 am and i do not beleive the cell call was between joran and his father.  the father said he does not know if joran was there when he woke up on monday morning.  who goes out first, the kids or the dad?

I do so hope we hear more about this .... I find it very strange that NH and then another man, both at the same hotel at the same time, are missing ... I mean what are the odds of that.

Wow...when did New York schools start requiring ballroom dancing? And I am wondering how they are enforcing it.  I hope all schools do this.

crap, I'm sounding like my mother again...eek!

Morning, nice to see you on. I believe it's the McD up by the high rise hotels.

All the kids in Mountain Brook take ballroom dancing in 6th grade.
And let me tell you, the guys still found a way to be guys. I'm not sure that will help with the respect issue. A girl who can stand up for herself can knock respect into a guy.

[/quote]

That happens with certain lighting. My hubby and I went to a party in the 60's  (black lights!) He wore dark slacks, and his underwear showed up under those lights just like hers did, and every speck of lint glowed. We had a chenille bedspread at that time and he sat on the bed to put socks on, hense his whole backside was covered in lint. He was definitely the hit of the party. You didn't see many bras through the gals' blouses - in the 60's most of that crowd didn't wear bras!

last time i checked, there is no known correlation between dirty dancing and murder.

Never seen it either. Between that and hooking up maybe...now THAT I've seen, but let's just drop this...it's normal teen behavior.

last time i checked, there is no known correlation between dirty dancing and murder.

You would be right about that ;)

The today show did a special and showed  the elementary kids were learning how to ballroom dance. It is like a ph ed requirement. The kids seemed to love it.

<<<<dublin: you start out with an unproven assertion that joran and father went to casinos together. we have no source confirmation on that. >>>>

It was reported on Greta's show last night that father and son were at the Holiday Inn casino TOGETHER when Joran first met Natalee.

It was also reported that there was a confession.

Just sayin'

Really?
We resented it at the time.

I am still very puzzled about Steve Croes

On Greta's show last night, she said it was four blocks from the HI casino....don't know if that is any help or not?

You people got ballroom dancing? As a class? I'm going to have a heart-to-heart talk with my mom why I didn't go to highschool in the states. :D

That's true...and there was a retraction :)

I believe the correlation is about respect not murder...perhaps at your age you don't see the big picture. I know I didn't when I was younger.


there's that mother again....crap...eek!

Thanks for saying which McDs it was.

Parking lot (i.e. where the cars are supposed to park), is pretty visible from the main road).

fox news is saying that he back up the slime brothers first story about droping natelee at holday Inn

Columbo is correct. Greta show stated last night that on the night that Natalee met up with Joran, that Paul and Joran were playing Poker at the HI casino, Mr VDS went home while Joran stayed to continue playing, and later on at 11pm Joran phoned him from McDonalds to come pick him up

No one has reported that they were covered in slime.  Lets not get carried away.

Iquitos - I agree.  I think people are trying to piece together all the information they know of Joran and paint a picture of his character.  There seems to have a wide range of attributes:

- sneaks out at night
- good athlete
- party boy
- honors student
- gambler
- wonderful son
- underage drinking

Re se through clothing - remember the famous picture of the demure Lady Diana Spencer, erstwhile child care worker, sun glowing through her skirt - her legs clearly visible for all the world to see

I think he killed her and Im not going to waiver from that.  If people want to ignore the facts that their choice but I dont LOL or roll my eyes at their posts. and I dont need a rescue squad because I stand by want I say.  People can think what they want I dont care.[/quote]


I won't soapbox on this, all information 'that we have' seems to indicate that Joran was the last person to spend time with her.  

In the USA, it's innocent until proven guilty.  I stand by that.  We don't have enough information, and until we do, other possibilities, should be explored.  This, thankfully, isn't a witch trial.

FYI gonna hang up the wash, will be right back.

3AM was on a blog that soemone from MB who had been in Aruba & gone back to MB had seen PvdS at the McD. Not proven. The 6AM call was on Sun morn not Mon morn and this is per someone iding themself as NH's aunt.

Charmz[/quote]



I won't soapbox on this, all information 'that we have' seems to indicate that Joran was the last person to spend time with her.  

In the USA, it's innocent until proven guilty.  I stand by that.  We don't have enough information, and until we do, other possibilities, should be explored.  This, thankfully, isn't a witch trial.[/quote]

Its not a court of law either, so I can say whatever  I think happened whether its true or not.

Thanks.  I was trying to state there are a lot of inconsistencies in the timeline, and hard to know what is true or not, but I think the news reporters have pretty well fleshed out this as truth.  There were a number of MB teens interviewed that said they saw PVDS there. I just don't know what time he was there and whether there is any indication he went there after 11:00.  

I'm also pointing out inconsistencies in that timeline.  The Kalpoe bros. mother said that they were calling the one with a car (who was working at the internet cafe) from about 11 on to get a ride. They had to wait until he was done working, so her story goes.

So, if Paul gave Joran a ride at 11:00 then what were all the calls to "satish"? (not sure of spelling) at about the same time regarding a ride?  At least per Mrs. Kalpoe's interview...

I'm waiting for Greta's transcript to be posted on FOX. I remember the part about Joren and his dad being in the HI casino together that night...but I don't remember if she made any reference as  to Joren meeting Natalee at that time????

odd, i did not hear that, must have dozed off.  did greta ask why v/ sloots  had told her something else in her interview with them?

here is the link to that interview:

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=286

In the US you are presumed innocent until proven guilty under the law.

You are actually either guilty or innocent.

In the US, unless you are on the jury, you can presume whatever you want about someone's guilt or innocence.

 

Odd, there was an aruban witness on who said joren and natalee were seen together, but he did not mention the dad being there.  can we get some monkey power on this.  And by the way, what does it prove?  maybe he went down there to pick him up after the poker contest where he came in 4th.

1st I heard of that was from Greta last night. Just an aside but when I took Probability & Statistics, I always felt a casino atmosphere would have been more meaningful than pulling marbles out of a bag.

Iquitos - I agree.  I think people are trying to piece together all the information they know of Joran and paint a picture of his character.  There seems to have a wide range of attributes:

- sneaks out at night
- good athlete
- party boy
- honors student
- gambler
- wonderful son
- underage drinking[/quote]

As a mother of four grown kids, this pretty much describes a lot of "normal" teenagers except for maybe the gambling since it's not so accessible in the states.  I know my kids (including the youth pastor) all pretty much had these attributes.

Actually in California you are always innocent no matter what.

last time i checked, there is no correlation between underage gambling (possibly under parental supervison) and murder.

The Mountain Brooks group flew to Aruba on a commercial flight, not a charter.

The only charter involved in the story is when Natalee's parents flew to Aruba when they learned that their daughter was missing.

I don't remember hearing Greta ask PVDS if he saw Natalee in the casino or if he was even there.  Why didn't she ask him?  This is odd.

arubagirl, do you know if your island has a dump where they haul all the trash to? or does it get hauled out on a boat?

Sorry, just woke up.  Am I hearing that there's been a confession and yet another retraction?  Or is this a new confession?

<<<So, if Paul gave Joran a ride at 11:00 then what were all the calls to "satish"? (not sure of spelling) at about the same time regarding a ride? At least per Mrs. Kalpoe's interview...>>>

The call to Satish was to give Joran and Natalee a lift back to the hotel. Not sure how Joran got to C&C's....as Deepak was supposedly working.
Just my opinion, but I don't think Joran ever went home...took a jitney bus to C&C's after gambling all day.

If Arubagirl is back from hanging her laundry - have you seen the Texas group - are they searching behind the International School - hope so.

Perhaps Greta got the info about PvdS being in the HI casino from the HI security tapes.

No klaas - it's in references to the Saturday night debacle a couple of weeks ago...old news.

im not going to sleep until the search team finds her.  I might be up 5 days.

Ain't that the truth!

Shoot, me too.  :cry:

thats what I think, can you imagine her asking PVDS in front of his wife if he was gambling at the casino and she didnt know.  Would have shifted the focus of the interview.
Greta was smart not to call him out on that.

Time for a 12 step program!

Wow...head spinning in so many details! Ok....does anyone know how Joren got from his home after VDS Sr picked him up....to Carlos and Charlies??? How far is Carlos and Charlies from the VDS residence?? I'm asking because it is my understanding that the Kalpoe brothers were called to pick him up from C&C.....but I don't recall hearing how he got to C&C's?

we had squaredancing in highschool for gym, i loved that!



May

Maybe we can get a group rate!!

Are we focusing too much attention on natalee's disappearance?  Useless-knowledge.com thinks so.

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/june/article378.html

Good afternoon :D .  Any news on the search team?  Sorry if this has been covered already.  I just logged in. :D

I dont buy that.

From useless knowledge:  

Fox News doesn't need to issue a "FOX News Alert" every time Natalee's mom sneezes.

Klaassend, I was referring to the "confession" that didn't happen 2 weeks ago. Sorry for the confusion

Clev, there is a dump, it's by car, you haul your stuff there, it's open 24/7, a guard comes, takes down your car number and the district you say you're from (i.e. Tanki Leendert, Santa Cruz, Paradera, etc.) and will guide you to which container you throw your stuff in, will stand there as you do and then you can go.

I forgot who asked, but I don't know if the TX team searched behind the Int. School of AUA, but I think the refinary is directly behind, isn't it?

She didn't ask PVDS. Greta reported this while she was talking to O'Reilly or Hannity. She stated the boy and father were seen at the HI casino together. Perhaps Greta is wrong, I seem to remember hearing that PVDS was returning from a trip to Holland that day? Maybe PVDS told Greta and Beth in the interview we didn't see? Maybe that's why PVDS was arrested....his story didn't match. He's either on a flight returning home or at the HI casino. Maybe that is why Beth said PVDS proved her suspicion that he was involved with Natalee's disappearance.

It's the simplest and most straightforward only if others come forward to show the guy has a history of OD'ing and raping girls. Seems to me Joran is a 17 year old wannabe, not a hard-core criminal type. Accidental death seems more likely.

I have heard rumors that Joran, as Absolut put it to me, "was a playa" and was having his pick of chicks on and off the island.  I rather looked at him like he was nuts, because that if the guy is soooo well liked, how come more women haven't come out to support him? I mean help me out here Monkey women:  if a guy you dated had this happen to him and you found him to fun, engaging, funny, etc, wouldn't you have a vocal opinion?

good one!  :lol:

What was interesting to me is that the brothers could not see who was in the cell next to them.  That is why they didn't know who the guys were.  Yet mickey stated they didnt recognize him.

I did hear Greta say that she had gone over the PvdS interviews (the one that wasn't aired too it sounded like) and said she couldn't figure out what He'd said that caused him to be picked up and detained.

There was a rumor from an Aruban who played tennis with Joran that he bragged about the number of women he had sex with after using the date rape drug.

Razzy Dazzle!!!!

You're still here? Uhhhhhhhhhh, you've been here all night since we had our last little visit? Hmmmmmmmm  I'm just pouring my first cuppa French Roast.

You're gonna stay up until they find her?  Now that's a rather manic statement.

I do appreciate you showing up, you're the first challening, interesting conversation I've had in days on this forum. Everyone here is grealt...but, 90% of what's discussed is pure fantasy and doesn't look anything like a real investigators notebook!

So what's shakin' today?  I'm going to worry about your responses now that you're going without sleep. What's THAT all about?

~Nancy

I wouldnt.  Think they will look like loose girls.  The 2 long term gf's he had should.

Every day, I become more firmly convinced that Joran van der Sloot is a narcissist and budding sociopath, and that his ideal crime is to go to Carlos and Charlies on the night before a group is supposed to head back to the U. S., slip a girl (victim of opportunity) a date rape drug, and have a cheap date. I believe that something went wrong. Maybe he killed her. Maybe she OD'd. Either way, it would be consistent with the narcissistic or sociopathic personality.

Here's how he appears to line up with the classical profile of the narcissist or sociopath. Please. If you are not interested, skip over this. And it you do read it, please don't remind me that much of it is based upon hearsay and speculation. Of course, it is. I know that.

A narcissist is usually the life of the party.

(Check the pictures of the parties Joran attended. He is always the center of attention. The life of the party.)

He/she makes superficial friendships easily, and is skillful at manipulating other people to get what he/she wants.

(Mommy, Mommy, if you hadn’t gone away to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house. Interview of Anita and Paulus, by Greta van Susteren.)

He/she lives behind a mask, and can charming and even charismatic, when he/she chooses to be.

(Charming with the girls from MBHS, arrogant with the mother of Natalee.)

He/she is vain and extremely careful about personal grooming and cleanliness.

(Check the party pictures. Always impeccably dressed, even when partying. Has a preference for plaid shirts. Mother takes clean sheets to him, while he is in prison.)

Narcissists are normally above average in intelligence. They tend to be outstanding students, and excel in many areas, such as athletics and business.

(Fits Joran to a tee.)

The narcissist bends the rules. He/she knows the difference between right and wrong, but does not care, as long as he/she is not caught. He/she is skillful at not getting caught. He/she can be quite brutal or ruthless, but only when no one is looking. He/she sees other people almost as inanimate objects, to be manipulated.

(Rumor has it that Joran brags about his sexual conquests. Brags about using a date-rape drug.)

Narcissists are upwardly mobile, as a group, and seldom end up in therapy. It is usually the co-worker, spouse, or other family member who ends up in therapy. One of the reasons that the narcissist seldom ends up in therapy is because he/she is skillful at manipulating others, skillful at getting his/her own way, and because he/she not feel remorse for the pain inflicted on others.

(On the night that the Twittys first questioned Joran at his home, he pounded his chest and asked “What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?” No sign of remorse. The same with the father, Paulus. At minimum, you would have expected the van der Sloots to show empathy over a missing girl.)

The narcissist normally comes from a narcissistic family. One telltale sign of a narcissistic family is one that is very permissive, and which feels that their son/daughter can do no wrong.

(Seventeen years old. Hangs out in casinos, even on school nights. When asked if Joran drank alcohol and did drugs, his mother said, “Oh, no. He doesn’t do drugs.” When Joran brutalized a younger brother, he was sent off to a YOGA AND MEDITATION class (sic), to help him control his aggression.)

Another telltale sign of a narcissistic family is a mother who collects a dossier on possible mates for her son/daughter, and finds that none of them are good enough. ( ? )

Of course, the extreme form of narcissism is the sociopath. Psychologists used to call them psychopaths, but they now call them sociopaths, because there is no psychosis involved. These people are not “crazy,” in the clinical sense. They do not suffer delusions, and they are in complete control of their faculties. They are entirely "normal," except that they feel no remorse for the pain inflicted upon others.

(Joran has finally graduated, and is now a full-fledged sociopath. When told that his father had also been arrested, he merely said, “I’m not surprised.” Now, that’s one cool cucumber.)

Not if my parents told me to keep out of this

you are correct that it is fair to try to establish a facutal profile on Joran as long as it is objective and does not personalize and demonize to support the foregone conclusion that he is guilty as hell.  

i still don't think underage drinking is a big issue, if proven.  he is a month shy of 18.  the whole mb delegation was in c&c almost three years under the us drinking age of 21.  this is more of a social norm than a legal issue anyway.  some mountain brook parents alolowed their kids to go on an all inclusive tour (free booze too) to a party island probably because they don't really think people should have to wait until 21.  the european approach to drinking is somewhat different.  and by the way, what evidence do we have of Joran's drinking habits?  lots of kids go to clubs for the entertainment and never touch a drop.  there may be a higher correlation between drinking and murder but we have no reason to beleive Joran was drunk.

nancy Im getting ripped to shreads.  Im not allowed to say what I think because Fox news hasnt reported it yet.  Please help me.

I understand, Shell.  I responded similiarly to absolut who told me that the comments on JVS tickle page looked to be made by girls he'd been with or known:  both on and off the island. I wonder where they are now...

The full transcript of the interview with Ramirez is on the Fox website under Greta's blogsite.



That is a part of it. Now you see why I'm questioning the discrepancy in the times?  If Paul came to pick up Joran at 11:00 and yet they were calling Satish for a ride at about the same time, then someone here is lying it seems.

Where ya been all my life?  Uhhhhhhh, some don't take kindly to challenging their made for tv movies!!!

There is at least one female friend of Joran's who has been interviewed. She said he was a great guy, etc. etc. Translation of interview was posted on habikos? (forgot spelling) site. Reporters have questioned neighbors and friends... some say he was a nice kid, others say he was pretty wild.

klaasend, this is not a new story.  We were discussing how reported-news has not always been factual.  arubagirl was mentioning the case-in-point of the "confession" that was later retracted back on June 11th.

Now I know what was wrong with all of my exes.

Yes I would.  I believe only one girl has spoken out about Joran and supported him on camera.  I also found it strange that we haven't heard any support coming from any of his male friends.  Where are they? :shock:

nancy Im getting ripped to shreads. Im not allowed to say what I think because Fox news hasnt reported it yet. Please help me.

Correction:  you are not getting ripped to shreds.  Folks are trying to give you some feedback about the tone of your posts and you perceive it to be that you can't say anything.

Re: Dad & Joran at HI together
Source: taped last night's Greta...

In her timeline, she just said this is the casino where Nat met Joran on May 29th.  According to what Mr. VDS said yesterday, he and Joran were there gambling, at some time Mr VDS decided to go home, he left Joran there, his son doesn't drive, his son had no way of getting home, but his son was there with a bunch of friends gambling.  At about 11pm Mr. VDS got a phone call to pick up his son.  Call did not come from casino, but rather from a few blocks away at McDs.  Don't know how Joran got there, but is just a few blocks away, certainly walking distance

there was one on the radio yesterdy in aruba.  she spoke live, anonymously (station knows who she is), and for a long time answered questions.  conclusion: joran is a good guy and there is nothing about him that would suggest he could have done this.

I think Jorans girlfriends wont come forward because they are afraid hes going to kill them too.

I think I already said there had to be a problem with him if he had to date a 13 year old.  Where were the women of his own age, or was she the only one that would put out for him?

He dated a 13 year old?

I think Jorans girlfriends wont come forward because they are afraid hes going to kill them too.

Or for the local girls, get hauled into the authorities for questioning.  Hard for Joran to do anything to them when he's sitting in jail....

The internet cafe closes at 10pm on Sundays. Is it logical that it would take an hour to an hour and a half to close up?

At least the sound of clanking chains will give them a head start

Two cars were towed in from the VDS home.  Mother was out-of-town.  Why did Joran not drive himself?

When people keep talking about who picked up Joran if he murdered Natalee, is it not possible that he broke into the hut himself getting ropes and an anchor, threw her into a dingy, and disposed of her himself.  He looks strong enough to me to pick up a body by the waist or under the arms.  Remember he is alot taller and heavier than Natalee.

Then an athlete could easily jog home on the main streets.  Who would see someone after 2 in the morning?  I know men in their 50s who run for many miles every day.  I would think an athlete who is 17 would have no problem getting home before he had to leave for school.  He could run for awhile and rest, and run again...hiding if he saw headlights.  

The dad may have called his cellphone looking for him and this may be why the dad was arrested.

The others may have chatted or emailed about looking for tourist women for sex or selling drugs to tourists or even what Joran did or told them, and that might be why they were arrested.

Hopefully they looked at the pcs at the internet cafe where Deepak worked and Croes went to.  I wish they would show an interview with people there.

 arabba:  can we please have a source on that?

I don't see any discrepancy. She says Satish drove Deepak's car to the internet café about 5  or 10 to 11:00 and waited in the car for Deepak to get off work. She doesn't say when Deepak received the call from Joran to pick him up. Could have been well after 11.

Actually one girl emailed his mother because she was out of the country and did say nice things, but we really dont know what the local girls are saying.  I think those people are probably afraid of the intensity of the USA news people.

Then an athlete could easily jog home on the main streets. Who would see someone after 2 in the morning? I know men in their 50s who run for many miles every day. I would think an athlete who is 17 would have no problem getting home before he had to leave for school. He could run for awhile and rest, and run again...hiding if he saw headlights

I wondered if anyone would bring that up.  Joran is an athlete and it would make sense he could have run home.

Like Greta said they are not 100% involved yet, nobody knows and we shoulding go around saying stuff that could damage the poor guy if he didnt do it.

Actually one girl emailed his mother because she was out of the country and did say nice things, but we really dont know what the local girls are saying. I think those people are probably afraid of the intensity of the USA news people.

Very true WRT the US media...does anyone know how many of Joran's classmates have been interviewed?  3, maybe 4?

Without anyone seeing him? Lucky bastard.

Joran isn't allowed to drive, legally. That's not to say that he didn't, of course.

Yes, earlier this spring. Best friend of his younger brother's girlfriend.

They interviewed one classmate on CNN, I think it was. I don't know the name, but it wasn't one of the names that was discussed on the boards.

is the driving age 18 in aruba?

Correct, Razz.

You can't get any sort of driving privileges before you're 18

That is a part of it. Now you see why I'm questioning the discrepancy in the times?  If Paul came to pick up Joran at 11:00 and yet they were calling Satish for a ride at about the same time, then someone here is lying it seems


Earlier in the interview the Kalpoe Mom said that Deepak will sometimes stay a little later at the internet cafe to close out the shop if patrons stay a little longer.  

So - PvdS picks up Joran at 11:00, gets home 11:15.  Joran calls Satish or Deepak at 11:20, while they (Deepak and Satish) are still at the internet cafe, and asks for a ride to CnC.

It is my understanding that yes, and when her mother found out about it forced the breakup.

I'll try to find you a link to that info.

Didn't someone post the mileage from the Marriott beach to his house?

how could mr v/d sloot say someting to greta yesterday if he was in jail?

It's 5km. Someone do the math in miles for me, please

They are probably scared that they will be hauled in for questioning if they start talking to the press.

Im confused about all these pick up times.  And what is the significance of the pick up from the Internet Cafe around 10 pm - when all the bad stuff happened after 1am when the CNC closed.

3.11 miles

3 miles.

A little over 2 miles

off the top of my head i think it's about 3 miles

Agree!

Greta was wearing the blue blouse when she was taping in front of the casino, and on Thur show, Greta had blue blouse on, so that is why Greta says "yesterday", it is because the segment they ran last night was when she was taping in front of casino was actually taped on Thurs and ran last night

Thanks, Sandy, RB and Professor.

A tad over 3 miles. Is this as the crow flies or by the roads? You can walk 3 miles in less than an hour, and run it in even less time.

 
general consensus of aruban posters is that it is walkable, maybe hour - hour and a half.  i think he could have walked but he did not have much time to dispose of the body and then walk home before daylight.  they don't walk much there, gas is too cheap and they all drive everywhere.

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html



part of that page is quoted.

The "tone" of Razzy's posts? PLEEEAAASSSSEEEEE!!!!
RB, I've grown to sorta like you but who cares about the tone of Razzy's posts?  You said the same thing to me.  This isn't a tea party or a fan club. It's a discussion of probable MURDER AND RAPE...Any real criminal pro isn't gonna come here and play house in soft spoken whispers just to appease.

I'm glad Razzy's here...it's so great to have a confident, brash, intelligent poster.

la_cavaliere, by the roads, but for about 1.8 km you cannot cut through, due to the swamp, and if you're not used to walking it home, I think cutting through without knowing what you're doing might be wasting more time than helping.

How anal is it that I actually went out and did this....  :oops:

5 km is 3.1 miles.  So, does it sound about right to everyone that this would take an hour to walk?

Okay - I'll try to find it.  I might need a little time.

1 m = 2.2 k

I find it hard to believe that someone who drinks and gambles illegally doesn't drive.  Driving is the first illegal activity that most teenagers do.

Also, I find it funny when people say one place is so many kilometers from another place, as though a 17 yr old athlete couldn't run around the island if he was afraid of imprisonment.  Why would Greta be asked how far one place is from another and if she could walk it?  Is Greta an athlete or a runner?  Have you ever seen a 17 yr old play soccer competitively?  Do you think he could possibly run for a couple of hours?

Yes, a normal walking pace is 3-4 miles per hour. Jogging even less.

But why wouldn't he just say he walked home?

It was more intense last night.

Yup.  You can walk 3 miles in about 30 minutes.  Joran is a young healthy 17 year old "sportsman".  Easy walk or run for him.

let me repeat
if dutch-bag was walking what did he do with natelee that really limits how you would get rid of a body some one had to help but the jackass might be tell the truth now he left her on the beach(what a asshole) it could be a random kidnapping and if thats the case the cops might never figure out who did it (even LE in the USA almost never catch people that they can not conect to a case )but we are still back to if dutch-bag didn't do something to her WHY ALL THE LIES?

He must have been very very lucky that no one saw him, because it was the night of Soul Beach, so it would have been busier than usual.

1mile  +  1.61 k's
1lb  =  2.2 kilos

arubagirl, that's very important to know for us.  So at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m., a person committing a crime could not be confident that he was alone out there?

iquitos asked: how could mr v/d sloot say someting to greta yesterday if he was in jail?

Good question; have rewound tape from Greta show last night, and she says "told us yesterday" so maybe this was taped earlier and shown 1st time last night?

Greta reported this as fact during her show last night.  It was when she was visiting each location that they know that JVDS was the night in question.  She went to the entrance of the casino in the HI and said (still have it on TIVO),

"Now Joran was there with his father gambling.  They were gambling throughout the evening.  This is what Joran's father told us yesterday.  What happened was at about.....sometime in the evening Joran's father decided he was going to go home, and he left his son here.  His son doesn't drive, his son had no way of getting home, but he was with a bunch of friends, gambling.  At about 11 p.m. though, Joran's father got a phone call to pick up his son.  (para.) He called from the McDonald's a few blocks away."

I wonder if this has anything to do with PVDS discrepancy.  Did he maybe not tell LE that he had been gambling with his son that day, and that's why they picked him up?  Who knows -just speculation.

PVDS stated he picked up his son at 11pm at McD's. Went home, went to sleep, had no idea his son snuck out. Now, we hear the Kalpoe brothers may have picked Joran up after work and brought him to C&C.

It would prove Dad is lying. Why would Dad lie about picking his son up at 11pm? Perhaps, Dad was involved from the beginning!

Razzy,
So this is the real first day of the Texas search.  Do you know the typical length of time it takes them to do a full search....I know that depends on the situation...And, they say authorities are working with them...true?  How about the FBI?  

Also, is there much we can glean about the state of the case from the court proceedings today?  I know it's procedural...but, it seems the lawyers are getting frustrated, might they start talking more?

Dallas Also, I'm talking about walking home.

The Fisherman's Huts could have been deserted at 2am / 3am, yes.

there have many theories as to WHY ALL THE LIES, but basic human behavior regarding criminal activity points to the simple fact that when you lie you have something to coverup or hide.

Anyone hear anymore of guy that sat next to Natalee on plane that stayed at HI also?  Did they figure out where he was on the island?  Or back home yet?

Shellbell, I first heard of it on this site, and no where else.

Here is what a date-rape drug does to you: first you are "sleepwalking" for a few hours, then you pass out.

By "sleepwalking", here is what I mean: you can be walking around the bar, talking to people, but acting pretty wild.  Like, you might decide to go up and grab the mike, or tell off someone, dance on a table even.

Later, you pass out.  You wake up the next day, and you don't remember one thing.  If you are raped, you will have no memory of it.

Is it possible that Baby DID walk home and the Boat DJ gave him a lift?

I hadn't heard that he was sitting next to Natalee?  Is that true?

I heard Greta talk about it, but she didnt go into detail.

Joran could have hid Natalee in the Palm Beach area, or Joran could have walked home and took one of his parents cars back, and then hid Natalee.

Aruba Girl,

Can you help me out? I lived on Aruba (over 30 yrs. ago) and am puzzled with all the talk of swamps, ponds, dams with dumps, etc. When I was there, you were seriously limited to what you could grow in your yard, etc. due to water limitations. It never rained unless you called some big "plops" that passed over the island as fast as the trade winds blew "rain." What is the story on all this surface water? Thank you.

heartache, that's also possible, of course.

I personally thought that daddy picked him up. Or the two brothers.

From   http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/06/two_observation.html

The second observation will sound like gossip, which basically, it is - please take that into account. If it didn't come through an extremely reliable source on the island, I would not mention it at all.

In talking with an adult professional from Aruba who knew Joran, the individual stated that Joran often bragged to him of his many "sexual conquests" resulting from the use of an illicit substance slipped into a woman's drink and the Aruban individual suggested Joran was a "psychopath."

I doubt that the source of these statements is a certified psychologist, but if he is repeating these types of statements to individuals in and around the investigation, it will likely come out and be proven or disproven in any potential trial. And noone should be considered guilty of anything without one.

That is what Greta reported yeterday/last night.

we have known for a while that the kalpoes picked joran up after he sneaked out of the house after his  dad brough him home from mikkie dee.  there is indication kalpoes may have stopped home first to get ready for hot date and eat after leaving Deepak's work.  then they drove to joran's on the other side of town, picked him up, and drove him to the club arriving 12-12:30.  joran could have called deepak at anytime after he talked to Natalee and was told she would be at the club.

Not only do I think Joran is involved in this crime, I believe he's done it before, because this time he was really bold. Think about it. What more perfect crime for the young sociopath than to use a date rape drug and take advantage of some young woman on the night before her group is supposed to return to the U. S.? A little roofie in her drink, right at closing time, and we're off to the races. Drop her off in front of her hotel, right at the door for everyone to see, and she looks like she's just drunk. She's disoriented and can't tell what happened. By the time her head clears, she's two thousand miles away and can't possibly bring charges in an Aruba court. She doesn't even speak the language. And besides, daddy knows all the angles, and won't let baby boy go down.

As for the victims, who is going to tell? What would be the point in telling?

A perfect crime, performed by a master.

Just a thought.

the people on fox news has been saying that the steve guy back-up the first story that the slime brothers told about droping natelee at the holday Inn   there story fell apart  the cop realize  the DJ was telling a lie too

""""



The texas team could be there for a couple weeks if they search the entire island and parts of the water grid by grid. They stated they will stay until Natalie is found or they run out of money, and Im pretty sure they can obtain enough donations to keep this going as long as they need.   The FBI only has a few people left because they moved the suspects and not as many are needed because they cant sit in on the questioning at the prison.  The FBI felt that the aruban authorities were doing a pretty good job in their investigating and interrogation tactics.  

As far as court procedings and the new judge coming in to review the status of the detained.  I seriously doubt anyone will be let go today because of the pressure Aruba is under to solve this case.

Greta commented that the possibility of being victimized twice on the same day in Aruba is iInfinitesimal, especially with their low crime rate.  This comment supposes that Joran already committed a crime against her.

I've seen no proof the kalpoes picked up Joran from home.  We don't really know how Joran got to C&C's.

mehill... so DJ is putting himself out and about at the HI on Sun Night at 3:00 a.m.  Is it possible that He saw Baby walking/running down the road at 3:oo am, gave him a lift home and lied about it? Perhaps Baby told him that the girl he picked up was passed out on the beach and that is it.

That is very good!  The ladies around here that have seen his mug, don't think he would have been quite a "playa" as held himself out to be.  He is very "lurch" like and probably had trouble closing the deal.  A little GHB goes a long way in that respect.

And not only that, but I would guess that there are young women who log onto this web site who KNOW he's done it before, and haven't told anyone.

Professor, would a "master" allow himself to be seen leaving with the person and then change his stories several times?  I just don't see it - we're demonizing and Law&Ordering what appears to be a 17 year old kid who liked to get drunk and play up his chick quotient.  Bad stuff, sure, but not quite Bundy, ya know? :)

The victims will not know that they were raped.

 

ok so now joran was gambling under parental supervision.  was there not some type of contest?  where was natalee in all this because joran had contact with natalee that evening too.  did joran go to mikkie dee to eat after the casino hence being picked up there.  i admit with all this late night monkeyng i fell asleep last night while watching greta,  imagine that.

See, that's what bothers me about those website comments.  If you knew he did it, why would you not be vocal about it now that he's accused in someone's disappearance?

Kind of what Paul and Carla Holmolka did to those girls.  They pretty much were clueless they had been molested.  Occasionaly, they died under the drugs....

It's also possible that JVS was running his mouth that she was passed out on the beach and all the wonderful friends he has, came to see what they could get, including the elder VS.

How do we know the Kalpoes picked Joran up at his house?
Nat's friends stated Nat was hanging out/dancing with Joran....she left CC a little before 1 am. If Joran arrived at CCat 12-12:30 am, then he moved fast....dancing, drinking and drugging her within an 1 hour.

Some of you are forgetting that there are MANY female teenagers that willingly take x and roofies ...

sorry a girl knows shes had sex the next morning whether she remembers it or not.

Maybe, they are not sure it really happened.  It would probably be viewed in there mind as a nightmarish dream, but not necessarily reality.

No I think IF he did it.  It was an accident.  GHB, etc.........

Does anyone know anything about the background of Marcus Wiggins, Steve Croes employer?  Is he, thus, also the owner of the Tattoo?  

I have a slight memory that when our Aruban friends were realizing that they knew Steve Croes, that the employer was also mentioned.  And someone was talking about criminal records.  Did someone talk about Croes having a criminal record in the states?  

Thanks.

I've read that tourists are targetted on their last day of vacation by date rape predators.  When the women go to the police the police tell them how they will need to stay in the country and it may take a long time to prosecute, blah, blah ,blah.  Basically telling the women it is easier for them to just forget about it.  Does wonders for the crime rate too.

That is not necessarily true.

That is not true.  Case in point, Holmolka's in Canada.  Not until after repeated abuses.

Not to be too graphic, but the other symptom of GBH is loss of bowel control.  So when the girl wakes up...  Again, sorry to be so graphic.

that would mean that some how dutch-bag  got him to  lie to the cops for him  i mean telling lies to cops when some one is missing  {is not like lieing to your daddy/mother or wife]  it get your ass put in jail  

i really think the cops know alot more than fox news has found out   and untill we know what the cops knows  we really an't going to know what happen that night

professor:  any statistical correlation between sociopathic condition (if actually) diagnosed and murder?   i though we established the last time you posited this theory that these people are usually not violent.   so far we have eliminated dirty dancing and i forgot what other correlations.
BTW, talk about incompetent investigations/searches, they could not find some little kids in the trunk next to the house.

Razzy:

I'm going to be in and out getting some stuff done today...But.....

I'd like to know more about the sociopath characteristics.  I know you're pissing some people off around here...I for one am not intimidated by your brash, confident manner. I tend to like that sassy attitude. Once I realized you've got info and training valuable to studying this case...

I'm not good at glad handing...

~Nancy

We only have suspects that have lied..that hey went to lighthouse and dropped him at the beach,,,

His apartment seems more likely...hence Papa gets involved.

If it boils down to a question of he said / she said, a lot of Aruban girls aren't willing to report a(n attempt to) rape.

In my opinion

From a conference on drug-induced rape:

She said that they are often quite hard to prosecute because the women (she only talked about women) because of the reporting problem, women need to come in right away but often wait a few days before reporting anything.

A common indicator that something has been slipped into someone's drink is that the person becomes impaired beyond what she has consumed and then wakes up at home, at someone else's house, or during sex. "symptoms not consistent with one or two drinks".

"Drugs are now ideal for sexual assaults." For 1-2 days afterwards, the woman may have self-doubt, "did I drink too much", confusion, memory loss, so they hesitate to report because they have zero memory or flash memories.

<snip>

"She also said that friends will testify that their friend became far more sexually aggressive than usual: "while they may appear to outsiders as the sexual aggressor, they are only reacting that way because of the drug."

http://www.erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_cat6.shtml

Greta also commented that it is possible that Joran did leave her on the beach and that NH ran into someone else who "grabbed her up".

That makes it an even more perfect crime, and add to that the fact that roofies are not detectable in the system after 72 hours. And it's ten hours before a girl's flight out, and a ten-hour plane ride, just to get home. And 2 hours before she even gets home. And already 22 hours have ticked away. But she would KNOW that SOMETHING BAD HAPPENED.

I think what we are really missing is what this DJ  steve Croes really had to do with natelee being missing  
the cops an't talking

Ive had someone slip date rape in my drink before but I was never raped so I can tell you first hand what it was like.

 

arrabba:  the last night syndrome would be the same, date rape or not.  but it is specualtion.  why do we never hear any after action reports from the girls once they get home?   why has no one else come forward?  i woke up with a loose bowel and i do not remember a thing type story ... it must have been the guacamole.

Describe it.

what, are they comatose on the plane?

and I'll bet that a lot of Arubian girls don't want to talk about the escapades that they are willing participants in. Seriously... Teenagers of today are having much different trysts than they were 20 yrs. ago. Did you know that most of them do not consider oral sex "Sex" ? That threesomes happen much more than one would think?  Ever read Maxim? The bible for teenage boys?

Professor - Yes I agree, she would know that something bad happened.  She would walk up with memory loss.

I have had it in my drink also.  I had a roomate one time who had it in her drink and WAS raped.  I know what it does to you.  And FYI she didnt realize she was raped until she turned up pregnant.

why would the they even look at the aruban girls?  they are too busy date raping exotic tourists on the last night on the island.  personally. it seems to me that there are plenty of attractive and available women on ths island to have to go to so much trouble to get laid.

Question for the group: Is Joran strong enough to carry Natalee?

If he couldn't lift her (and it is harder to lift an unconscious person), this would be a reason he might have left her on the beach - to go get help.

I'm not saying that is what happened.  I am asking, is one strong 17-year-old able to carry an unconscious person?

Happened to a good friend of mine while we were on Spring Break in Panama City Beach, as well.  Luckily, there were about 25 of us on the trip, and there was no way in hell she was going anywhere with anybody.  But, I do know how it affected her.

Shellbell, thanks for that good information.

Professor, merge this into your theory then.  There could be Joran-victims in Aruba who don't know it. (since it is reported that he bragged about having done this).

iquitos... someone was wondering why girls from the Island haven't come forward and fingered Baby as being a "predator" My point is that it is entirely possible that Baby had nothing but willing participants. Arubian or Tourist.

i thnk we may have just explained immaculate conception

arubagirl you still here  i have a question please

Unfortunately, Dallas, this is an area where I cannot go, because I am a man. Perhaps some of the women on this blog site can follow that thread, but I can't. Sorry.

Pvds is well educated. Appears Mensa material. He's well rehearsed in schmoozing women: professional, well regarded, feels he's intellectually superior to local intelligences. Telegraphs this to his audience, heck, he did to me! Cruises Casinos and upscale bars before Joran is a twinkle in his eye. A real Pro. Conquests are easy- small Island, tourists replenished daily so little info is passed from tourists to occupants of Aruba. Joran grows up idol worshipping his father. 98% of boys do. Mimics Daddys' ways in the art of schmooze. Booze, low opinion of women, egomaniac. He's now a carbon copy of his mentor. The die is cast at thirteen and Joran evolves steadily .
Timeline: PVDS and son at Casino- Pop is pointing out cuties and imbibing with his underage son.- PVDS with buzz humming proceeds home, leaving son. (Real parental material, no?)-- Natalee introduces herself to Joran, they converse and she mentions Carlos and Charlies'. Joran leaves Casino and Must! Have! Sustenance! Obvious choice for the svelte Joran-- McDonalds. Calls PVDS and on ride home informs his Dad about the hot girl he met and that it's her last night and she's headed to C and C's. This is the perfect setup, what PVDS and son are trained and eager to happen- tourist excited and leaving Island tomorrow, let's tag team her, Dad! I know this sounds sick, but it HAPPENS OFTEN! Kids emulate their parents!.  The facts at this point are muddy at best, so I'll keep with my theory. PVDS drives son to C and C's later, after they get home and make their plans, dropping him off up the street to avoid detection, then PVDS drives home and waits. He knows what time the bar closes and where his son will rendevous with him after the girl"s been GHB'd and taken to the "Lovers Beach" by the Marriot- Both Joran and PVDS have been there many times, this is where they take their prey, always has been. Deepak and Satish drop NH and Joran at beach when C and C closes. They feel squeamish because they know what Joran does to these women, although he's never hurt one yet. PVDS is watching all of this activity from his observation post and moves in when Surinamese brothers leave. The deed unfolds between NH, PVDS, and Joran. NH stunned and drugged, gets hysterical. Trying to keep her quiet the two men accidentally hurt her. (Crushed larrynx, asphyxiation- women are fragile, let's face it. Two big men and one slip in sweaty apprehension and she suffocates. I hate to think of this! This is a first for PVDS and son. PVDS keeps his cool, he's got to. He's gone from sexual predator to monster in one slip, but remember, he's a pro and well versed in the Legal Aspects- PVDS can think fast and on his feet. He drives Joran home and either thru contacts or Stephen Croes, gets a boat and disposes of the body several miles out where he knows the currents will do the rest. He then goes home and the rest is history. Deepak and Satish are in the deep kaka now, but they don't know what happened to Nat. PVDS is sweating bullets but knows son is too afraid to talk. Both men are  afraid of  Mama, who in her own right has had a sneaking suspicion about her son and her husbands nocturnal lurkings, she's just afraid that if she voices these suspicions, they won't go away. I'll bet this woman was abused as a child and covers it up with the Spiritual Leader thing. Been there personally.This family is so dysfunctional they can't see straight, except for PVDS-he's psychopathic with a lot of megolomaniac thrown in. These types could make anyone, and I mean anyone, beieve that whatever they are accused of was SOMEONE ELSE'S DOING. Trained behavior and self discipline can hide wierdness, don't you all think?

And why would they when a recent president didn't?

thats the long version of what Ive been trying to tell them and I was told I was forcing a ludicrous story down peoples throats.

I can describe it from what I witnessed.  We're at a bar/dance club in Panama City, friend ("M") is sitting on a barstool, talking to two men.  One buys her a beer (in a bottle) and she starts drinking it.  This was approximately beer number 3 for her, which was NOT a lot for M at all.  Approximately 10 minutes later M falls off of the barstool, on her face, and hits her mouth on the floor.  Several of us saw it, and freaked.  She was not passed out, and was talking coherently.  Said she had no idea what happened.  She was drinking, and just fell on her face, but said she felt o.k.  The two guys (whom I had met earlier) disappeared in the craziness of us checking on her.

We (about 10 of us) left immediately, and we walked back to our hotel.  She was walking on her own, and was speaking, but was very rude and obnoxious acting.  Her sister kept asking, did you take something, etc., and M was just acting very out of character (pushing her sister, cussing her out, yelling at her, etc.)  Got back to the hotel, sister is trying to change M into her pjs.  M is fighting her the whole time - basically out of her mind, could not be reasoned with.  Urinated in the room (not in bathroom), yelling, etc.  M passed out, woke up the next day, no memory of anything after she sat down on the barstool.  Remembered the guys buying her a drink...........then nothing.

Supposedly Scott Peterson carried and dumped a pregnant Laci ....

mother thing
dirty dancing
dysfunctional family
sociopathy
did i forget any?  
any correlation to murder?

i can tell you that moving a 100 body alone is not easy

Yes, Radiant Orb, self discipline can hide weirdness. At least it did for Ted Bundy. I'm not sure your theory is correct, but it IS plausible.

For me it seemed I was drifting in and out of consciousness but not totally passed out. I was burning hot and someone tried to give me an aspirin and I spit it in their face , Im assuming subconsciously because I had already been given something against my will.  I was burning hot, but not throwing up.  Just wanted to lay outside on the beach.  Its just a weird feeling but not a drunk feeling, its like you know something wasnt right the night before but you cant put your finger on it.  Its not like being drunk its like being in a dream.

What To Do If Your Drink Is Spiked
• If your drink has suddenly been topped up, moved or looks different, don't drink it
• If you feel unwell, extremely drunk, or sleepy after only one or two drinks, get help from a trusted friend, not a stranger, or go straight to the pub owner or security staff.


Time Magazine 2002 Invention of the Year award was given to Francisco Guerra for creating a cardboard drink coaster that can identify GHB and Ketamine. All you have to do is place a drop of liquid on the coaster and rub it in with your finger. If the spot turns blue, it has been spiked. The coasters are available with the company (Drink Safe Technologies) and though there aren't distribution outlets here, it can be ordered online.

AND BE ESPECIALLY CAREFUL OF THE LAST DRINK BEFORE CLOSING TIME.

the scenario stretches credulity on such a small island where there a no secrets.  p. v/d sloot is a public figure.  he is subject to background checks, he has many enemies as an officer of justice.  he would have been found out long ago.

What factual information do we have about PVDS "womanizing" and/or attitude towards women? Seems to me there are an awful lot of assumptions being made about this.

Agree, iquitos... just because Pops and Baby gamble together does not mean they pick up young Tourists and rape them.

that is SCAREY!!  :shock:


May

Maybe that is precisely WHY JVDS chooses tourists, and why he doesn't victimize the native girls. Because it is such a small island and because there are no secrets. With tourists, his secrets are SAFE.

Really is. I had a similair experience. :shock:

Another ploy to watch out for - guy "accidently" spills your drink then insists on buying you a replacement.

if some of you are convinced that Baby's behaviour is indicative of some mental illness... perhaps you should travel to any beach town in Mexico during Spring Break. There are literally thousands of Young Sociopaths partying it up down there.

Hello all,

Just popped in for a quick look.  Have a busy day ahead.  Anything new or significant happen overnight?

-Woody

how the heck can we protect our kids with all this kind of stuff going on?? somebody can slip it into a soda, even. you can tell them all this kind of stuff and they will just think you are being paranoid!! :/


May

I'm with you heartache, so many of these traits are learned by watching the pros at work.

MOM, that will never happen to me. I hear it all the time.
 :roll:

May, these drugs are monstrous.

Has anyone written a summary of the facts and timelines as we know them. It would be good before the judge at 3pm news starts to be added to this as well.

the above description of post drugging antsiness would track with two anonymous stories put out on aruba.  one is of a hysterical woman in a scuffle on/near Marriott  beach that night.  another is of a hysterical woman being forced into a car by two men in front of HI.  source:  TOP FM 95.1 Aruba earlier this week.  

Now, if Joran were experienced in this, whould he not know of this troublesome symptom and take her somewhere where she would not be heard?   Where would that be?  he had to go in a car so it has to involve the kalpoes.  was this group action a la US fraternity gangbang?  

There are apparently two drugs commonly used for this purpose, rohypnol and G something.  Which produces which symptoms, how soon does each take effect, and how long does the "spell" last.  

Finally, why did they have to kill her if she remembers nothing?

I just don't  understand why so many posters are shocked by Baby's antics... Buy a "girls gone Wild" tape.

Terry - did you have memory loss?

If you are referring to the birth of my Savior, you can believe it or not believe it, but please don't MOCK it.

Good description - I was explaing this to my husband last night.  I had an overwhelming urge to sit down, simply had to find a chair.  Next thing I knew I was throwing up on this guy - hehehe - :twisted:.

How right you are! Male and female!

One of the reasons I have a problem with a date rape drug being used is I don't think Joran worried about getting laid....he was cute, charming, smart and for all intents and purposes....a price charming.

I suspect Natalee was willing...maybe not to have intercourse...but, willing to spend time with this perceived prince charming on her last night in Aruba...a trip to the starry lit beach...little did she know halting his advances would bring on rage from him...

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, date rape drugs would be used in a situation where sexual supply and demand is scewed.

Are there any demographics, profiles, etc. on the use of date rape drugs?

MEHill, I'm here.

iquitos, these stories are being silenced, so maybe the authorities will announce something soon.  The authorities seem to have shut down any stories out there that relate to kidnapping.  Best example is the story that got shut down from the local newspaper, saying the paper was in pursuit of the kidnappers with 3 male staff and 2 female staff taking turns following suspects.

facts, timelines?  absolut, we are way beyond that.  maybe you should ask for clinical reports on the sexual outcomes of sociopatic behaviour,  how dirty dancing leads to homicide, or how my mom made me do it with my dad's help.  mondo cane

nancy... go to any college campus... it happens all the time. And like I said before... some girls take these drugs all on the own.

"DITTO"

Razzy, so many people just don't realize how predation can be a "game", so to speak. PVDS is well schooled AND well heeled. He's living in the perfect playground for it , yet I don't feel he is a "killer'. I think his predation slipped into a horrifying accident and he's in "Damage CONTROL MODE" now. Just a thought.

Thats the way I see it.  He was not use to someone saying no.

Yeah...father-son serial "tag team" rapists and perhaps murderers, abused mother and The Tooth Fairy. :)

 

thanks for the perpective nancy

Here's a good (tho disorganized) site for info - date rape drugs

    http://www.projectghb.org/

It has good links and a pretty informative "booklet" on X.

Click on each drug for more detailed info.

Who knows, maybe someone other than Joran slipped something in Natalee's drink. . . . it's just that she ended up with Joran at the end of the night.

what do you mean iquitos?

Nancy, don't confuse RAPE with SEX.  They are not the same.  Rape is an ACT OF VIOLENCE!

I also think it was an accident, the only idea we differ on is the drugs, I dont think he needed them with natalie.  I think she was suffocated or strangled in some sort of attempt to shut her up and or rape her.

I've considered this too.  J wouldn't have expected or known what was happening to her.

Razzberry, I love your posts!

Absolut,

Here's a facts/timeline to get started with...

1) Joran was with Natalee at HI casino Sunday night 6/29
   a) Based on evidence: at least 2 "close friends"
2) No clarity on when they met due to several versions
          a) Based on evidence:  several student interviews give various  
             timeline statements on MSM, and now People mag    
3) Don't know how students paired off for ride to CnCs except for one
    MBer rode with waiter
          a) Based on evidence: boy & girl interview with Bill O'R
4) Various accounts of Nat & Joran at CnCs, around 12:00-1:00
          a) Seen by each other not touching at CnCs
          b) Dancing
          c) Based on evidence: boy & girl interview with Bill O'R
5) Upon MBers leaving CnCs, various accounts, from didn't notice to
    checking that she was ok
          a) Based on evidence: other students interviewed by MSM & posts  
              to Scared Monkeys  
5) Natalee left with Joran approx. 1:00 (1:30?)
          a)  Based on evidence: statements from trio
6) Various statements to police, last one being Joran & Nat back to the
     beach in HI area
          a) Based on evidence: various statement changes from trio
              reported by newspapers, MSM
7) Plus 4th and 5th arrests now in the mix

There could be a thousand reasons why Joran might want to use a date-rape drug, even though there were many beautiful Aruban girls on the island (Check out the pictures. Are these girls not lovely?). And I shall not speculate on any of them. I don't know much at all about the date-rape drug, but the ladies must surely know how and when and why it is used. This is a thread I cannot follow. I am a geezer, to begin with, and do not understand the motivation of even AMERICAN youths today, let alone ARUBAN youths. And secondly, I don't think most men would understand why anyone would use such a drug.

Note: I am NOT saying that Rohypnol was used. I'm just saying that this looks like a situation in which SOMETHING OTHER THAN ROMANCE is involved.

If he didn't use the drug and didn't have any problems with the ladies refusing him, then it wasn't rape.  If you have consent it's not rape.  I'm not psychic, so I don't know what happened.  But, I think we all agree on what rape is.

I'm not confusing the two.  However, we've possibly got a situation where Joran got too rough with Natalee in a consensual act of sex...or, he raped her when she refused to go beyond kissing and a little touching.  In the Chambers case he got rough and violent...

What would you call getting rough during consensual sex?  Rape?  Nah...just plain murder, doncha think?

Joran is a big guy...Natalee is petite.

Saying you tried the date rape drug willingly is being cool in todays world.  Not only do alot of girls willingingly have sex but they also willingly take the drug for the sport of it, like ex or coke.

Okay, just to toss this out there - Steve Croes is a DJ.  Someone else mentioned him maybe picking up extra $$ on the side doing after-hours parties, raves, etc.  Maybe the drug wasn't slipped for a sinister reason (rape, etc) but more like X or LSD for the entire group, and she could've had a bad reaction - physical, mental or emotional?

Cute pic Woody.  Nothing new really happened overnight.  They are going to have an update at 3 pm EST on Fox.

arubagirl  In aruba if you drug someone and they die is that pre-meditated murder under aruba law?

mehill, if you give the drug to the person without his/her consent, I'm sure it is.
With consent, have no idea, but if the person is dead, how can you prove it either way?

yes, with the apparent island date rape epidemic it could have been anyone.  and joran and the boys were not there that long and they had no certainty that natalee would actually leave with them. or did they dope her after she agreed to go with them?  and if the thing lasts ten hours they would have had a comatose person on their hands after they finished.  no wonder joran says he left her on the beach.  the nagging question: why did no one look for her sooner?  her own male half cousins were there too.  It is interesting that in their first story they described her date rape drug like symptoms (stumbling, resisting assistance) as they dropped her at holiday inn.  why would they do that?

Question for the MB'ers: Is Natalee (straight-A, doesn't date much, demure) in her normal personality when she rolls down the window and yells "Aruba! Aruba!" as she is driving away from CnC in the brothers' car?

Look- he could have raped many girls without anyone's knowledge and they can't come forward because they don't REMEMBER!  That's the horror of a date rape drug.  At best, they'll have "fuzzy memories" and be back in the states. What are they going to do then?

Pawley's Island Girl - thank you for the timeline and reminding us that we know *very* little from reliable sources.

I've been just reading here this morning and I'm astonished at the degree to which people's imaginations run wild.

And with so much focus on these bizarre scenarios, it may well be that the authorities are so focused on feeding the US/media pressure to save tourism that they have got it wrong once again.

I keep thinking that I should go back and read the postings from the early days when the security guards were arrested wrongly - I'll be folks had them convicted too.

No, I meant that having no trouble getting laid would not preclude rape or use of d/r drug.  They are not the same conquest.

Rough consensual sex is just that.  Rough consensual sex.

 i don't really know

Now, that I find truly shocking. Why ANY woman would put herself into that position of vulnerability is beyond me. If she wants to have healthy sex, there is nothing stopping her. But WHY would any woman want to take a drug that took away any memory of the act? I am ASTOUNDED.  But then again, I am a geezer, and come from another generation.

Professor, I'm a geezer too and I see such an underlying substucture of designer drugs being espoused by the media, I really don't know what to think. God Forbid this PVDS was involved, I think that's where my GHB theory fizzles. Razzy was right in saying Nat was probably coherent although slightly drunk.

i mean thanks for the perspective, point of view.  pardon the typo

But, rough consensual sex that kills someone is murder...not rape.

Edited to add:  An act of sex that starts out as consenual and then she says NO in the middle...then it's forced...is also rape.  Saying NO anytime during the act is a no no.

arubagirl   does anyone down there really know why the DJ steve croes was arrested

Not for one second did I believe those guards had anything to do with it.

Hi Arubagirl~

What is word on the island about the Texas Search group's arrival?  What are folks saying?

Thanks!

Why are you putting the responsibility of this on her male half cousins?  They didn't give her the date rape drug. In fact, they may not have realized she had been given it. If Joran knew she had been given it, the question is WHY did he just leave her on the friggin' beach?  Why not be a gentleman and take her back to the hotel and say "ummm, she's passed out?"  

You're misdirecting responsiblity.

Hey, fellow Geezers....drugs like X and GHB also have some more pleasant side effects like a heightened sense of affection and hallucinogenic properties, if what I read was correct.

You can read about date rape drugs on allabout.com

I think if it were a simple accidental death with her having alcohol poisoning or drug overdose, then the cops would have found her body.  Especially if Joran just left her on the beach and she died.   I think her body would show bruises or strangulation or forced rape, and that is why they went to so much trouble to dispose of it.  I think they should receive more punishment because of disposing of her body and covering up their crime, not less.

I believe most women are given it unknowingly, and if they say otherwise it is because they are embarrassed.

Theres a thrill attached to having sex while under the influence of recreational drugs like ex and ghb.

My thoughts, exactly. Why would the three amigos describe rohypnol-like symptoms, when they described how Natalee stumbled and fell, in their original story?

Just because this guy may not have had a problem getting girls doesn't mean he didn't use a date rape drug.  I've heard of people who have used the drug on women, who had no problem getting women whatsoever.

Nancy - that is not how you asked the question.  What did you mean to ask?

BatmanCJ, mostly people are wishing them good luck, not in a sarcastic way, but in a hopeful way. Nobody I know has actually seen them at work.

Also we're joking around that the unknown murders on this island will be solved, due to the dogs finding other bodies as well.

Bad jokes, I know. Please don't attack me, went to sleep at 3 o'clock am.

Professor,

ever heard of what nitrous oxide does to a person while having sex? Kids were burning up their brains left and right with this stuff.

Arubagirl, have you heard anything about forensics testing done in Holland being back and that is the reasoning behind the detention of PVDS?

I had to read it 3 times to understand what she meant, but I think shes commenting that their stumbling and resisting assitance comment mirrors what someone does on ghb.  Like they inadvertently gave information they didnt mean to.  Correct me if im wrong but I think thats what she meant.

How about prolonged loss of memory, waking up on the beach alone with a used condom laying next to you and vaginal irritation, scratches, etc?    i mean it is not like nothing happened.  personally. i would raise hell if this happened to me.  besides, it is not like these drugs are unknown to savvy young people.  they know about a lot of drugs we geezers have never heard of

On yahoo message board someone mention steve looked alot like the guy with the axe. How would they know?

Golden, the police are dead dead dead quiet about this. I haven't heard anything about the results. I'm not even sure that they're done.

Okay, then the gentlemanly thing to do is go to the hotel and find her friends and say "HEY, Natalie is out of contol. HERE, you take her!"  Not leave her on a beach!  

Jerk.

How about the drug was used so PVDS could share and maybe they did this all the time.  I wonder is the Kalpoe bros. will come out with another story like "we dropped her and JVDS at his house like we/ve done many times".  Just speculation.

This may be the most useful post I have seen on any board, anywhere. I'm embarrassed I did not even know about this. No woman should leave home without this stuff!

Nancy_drew:  In the Chambers case he got rough and violent...



What is the Chamers case?[/b]