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Post has been moved - you can view it here:

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=356

I'm sure this will be censored too.

It's sad this has happened. Razzy is a good addition to the forum.

Yes, I totally agree.  Heard tonight from Mr. Croes (the official) that there may well be a change of venue for this case, which could mean that it will definitely be scrutinized for the slightest infringement of their laws.

And if something is leaked, and discussed, it will be thrown out.  Our media is doing a great job, but we're beginning to hear what many consider "inside information."  They need to back off.  just my NSHO.

ok, so i saw the theory about the phone calls placed to the brothers about a ride home and then cancellation of this...if this is true, then who picked him up? and how "premeditated" could this all be?

k

nikki... it was a question. And one I think I can answer. No, the damn beach has not been dug up and if there were cadaver dogs in Aruba then the Texans would not be bringing them.

Geraldo: What question have I not ask that you might want to see or happen?
Jug Twitty: I like to see Mrs Anita van der sloot questioned as well eventho she was not in Aruba..

Hmm..Id summon the dog as well.

oh please...the truth is the truth...
maybe this forum is just a faster medium.
IMHFO
 :?:

I think Jug just looks awful when he asks that Anita be brought in  - he looks cruel and that does not help keep support amongst Arubans or Dutch for the prosecution. It looks like he is pushing the investigation and that's already a fear so he would be very smart to stop those kinds of statements.

(writenow) Very Concise and detailed Timeline can be found here. Great Job on it by the way. It is sticky'd and can be posted to as well.

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?p=35052#35052

Nancy Drew


Really? I could have sworn I heard on Fox today an Int'l atty say there was no protection of parent-child relationship info.

Do you know this as absolute fact?

kshe78 wrote:
From Jossy Mansur:

Apparently Joran is not cooperating very well with the investigation.

GR: In what way is he not cooperating? Is he being arrogant, claiming ignorance, defiant, etc.?

JM: No, he's not defiant or ignorant or anything. He's just sticking to the rules of the investigation. If this is the hour when you have to stop the interrogation, stop. I'm not answering anything.


Is she saying he's refusing to answer anything? Or he watches the clock and stops talking when he knows the hours are up? I'm confused.

Writenow
First - I made a mistake - they were speaking of Paulus VDS, not Joran, sorry!

All that was said is what I posted above.  He did say at first, "we don't know much about what he's saying b/c they are not releasing anything.  Apparently, he's not cooperating very well with the interrogation."  

It should be noted that he's the editor of a paper, and is apparently geeting his info. from somewhere, but we cannot verify it.

>>Geraldo: What question have I not ask that you might want to see or happen?
Jug Twitty: I like to see Mrs Anita van der sloot questioned as well eventho she was not in Aruba..

Good one, he pegged 'slimeball', she's next..."Kleenex Ma'am?".

This has nothing to do with truth, but their laws.

In the US, you can discuss a case with new facts revealed every single day.  Not so over there.

I think the protection of parent child conversations was confirmed last night by several aruban lawyers on Greta.

Oh, i thought that was what you were saying..sorry..

lizzboo I missed most of the interview. but I thought that geraldo was talking to an official.

Was the offical stating "evidance type facts" or what the Kids have said ?

If fact could it be a "disclosure" that would invalidate the case?

While I understand (and partly agree with) your point of view, I can see his point as well.  While she wasn't home when whatever happened, happened, she has been at home with her husband and son since.  I wouldn't have a problem with them questioning her, and, quite honestly, she would probably be the easiest to break and/or get her husband or son to break.  I'm not talking about taking her into custody, but just questioning her separately.

That's my understanding too, Nancy.

It was covered several times this evening...he will not be required to testify against Joran.

If Jug said that, and AvdS is going to be detained, then I guess we know who's running the show.

AvdS wasn't on the island, so she couldn't see/hear anything. And anything that JvdS told her she doesn't have to reveal, so basically, there is no point.

I've read it and seen it described several times. We should ask for confirmation ...but, I've been fascinated with the law and the ramifications to this case. Dutch law extends the marital privilege (husband/wife)  we have here to parent/child. Paulas is protected from what he heard, but NOT what he may have seen.

This is an important deal....because when LE brought him in they knew this...so some people feel his involvement may well be greater than a normal suspect as he's already protected.

well then "this" is somewhere inbetween ...
unchartered waters so to speak?

I think the polis should question her - and I suspect they have since I don't think (anyone know this?) that they can only question someone if they bring them in - but to have Jug calling for her interrogation after he was pushing for PVDS' arrest is just bad strategy - imho.

Nice Timeline WriteNow - Thanks for posting it!

G'night monkeys.  Have to get this place packed before Tuesday.

:::looking around::::  Could be a problem.   :?

Will be back tomorrow, hopefully hearing that Natalee has been found and I can get some order back in my life!   :)

Next on Geraldo..So fido van der sloot.. we know you have involvement and knowledge in the disapearance of Natalee, we can do this the easy way or the hard way...the animal control is one phone call away and I can have you put in the slammer...

Fido : woof woof woof ::whine::

Geraldo: This confirms it, I am going on the record that from this reliable source the van der sloot's are 100% responsible for this disapearance..he's going to lead me to the body in an exclusive not seen anywhere else..

:::fido sniffs for 5 minutes and relieves himself on a tree:::

Geraldo annoucing he has solved the case, cracked a suspect and found Natalee...she's under s tree because Fido said so...

Sorry I had to include a funny Geraldo moment! lmao

I don't suppose the name of PVDS 's attorney has been disclosed, has it? Is Antonio Carlos still representing Joran. Antonio was a student of Pauls' from what I read. Just curious.

if Paul van der Sloot heard something (i.e. NH talking) or saw something, he has to tell.

If Joran told him something (dad, this is what happened to her), then he doesn't have to tell.

I've heard Ariaen de Bie and Arie Swaen.

If anyone has better times/facts, please PM me. It's still a work in progress...

Have heard a couple of times that the VDS house is boarded up.  Where did AVDS go with the kids - back to Holland?  Anyone know?

coco, according to Canal 90 they have interrogated AvdS

Every Aruban attorney asked yesterday gave pretty much the same answer.  Parent child protection for anything you are told but not for any thing you see--and not for anything you do as a result of what you may have been told.

It will be posted on the rss page and other places starting in the AM and updated. (writenow) is now my source :)

I don't think AvdS went to Holland when her son and husband are in jail. I'm guessing that a) she boarded it up for privacy b) They just went somehwere else on the island, stay with friends or something.

When the threesome changed their story, and the Marriott was mentioned for the first time, authorities drained a pond and did some digging around the Marriott, if I remember correctly.

Would she be forced to reveal what her husband told her or does the Dutch law have the same provision as the US law regarding spousal privilege?

No, that's not how I read it's described.  The law goes both ways...parent and child.

For instance if Joran confessed to his dad that he killed Natalee, that's protected.  Or vise versa.

HOWEVER, if either of them saw something they are not protected.

In our country the privilege is only for husband/wife.

maybe that is why in interview Paulus said he still beleieved in his son.
as if he believed joran could maintain the wall???
then papito goes in (pvds)
he knew that joran was in jail for not pointing
finger at dadda
IMHOA :roll:

Frankly I really dont care at this moment for them either..Yes blah blah Natalee is the victim but there crucial events that we do not know and they hold the key as well in order to solve this problem...One could say with suspicion..the following..

1. Almost and organized response with in 12 hours to 18 hours that they were here in Aruba.
2. Total black out of the views and information of all the MB students.  The immediate reproach of anything that is not in a favorable light of Nat.
3. The weird 1st poster of the search of Nat...and the first weird local Aruba TV suplication by Big Hootie for her daughter..Remember the first 2 hours they knew where to go and who to accuse...this small but crucial fact does not fit the response of the poster nor TV appearance.
4. The uncomfortable insuation that the suspect need to be added more pressure to confess.  Is torture in mind? Gitmo perhaps?
5. The dangling of a carot on MSM that more arrest are on the way, well if the police is stonewalling how the heck you pull that wabbit?
6. The tie in with ..tourism..If I don;t get my way this will hurt Aruba's Tourism. Frankly of all the island in the carribean, especially in reference to American Tourism, the cooperation has been unquestionable.
7. I think there is a real danger that if this continues we may not be for sure what really happens....all Joran has to do is say ok I did it she out in the sea and everyone is off the hook.  Case closed, no body, perhaps 20 year with early parole.

NICE...next???

From the way I understand it, husband wife is protected...as well as parent child.

>>I think Jug just looks awful when he asks that Anita be brought in - he looks cruel and that does not help keep support amongst Arubans or Dutch for the prosecution. It looks like he is pushing the investigation and that's already a fear so he would be very smart to stop those kinds of statements.

He might be a monkey (http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?p=30826&highlight=#30826) DutchLady:

according to dag...song just played with "molenita"
Do aloy of people there have monkees too?//??
I do love 'em....but   WTF!!!

Anyone else getting the idea that the ATTORNEYS are trying to spread disinformation and confusion? I am very skeptical of anything they say. It's like "controlled leaking" of what they want out there and it IS confusing.

Would the attorneys be trying to get the case thrown out in a pro-active way? Can they do that? Or will the judge kick them off like he did with joran's initial lawyer.

Or, in other words... who MISLEAD the investigation since the beginning. :?

I'm warp-speed-reading trying to catch up. Regading an exchange between Iquitos and ExTexinAz near the end of the last thread - Is the new judge in Curacao?  If so, isn't fast and easy to take a boat to Aruba?

Also, whan I stopped reading this morning, you all were discussing the effects of date rape drugs. If you need any more first hand info, I have an unusual experience with that and would be happy to share.

Nancy_Drew, I don't see where we differ. If Paul van der Sloot heard something suspicious, but information that he didn't get from Joran, he's supposed to tell. Natalee screaming, door slamming at odd hours, etc. If he saw Natalee in his house he's also supposed to tell
If Joran came to him and said: Dad, I left NH alone on the beach and she was abducted by aliens, Paul van der Sloot is not obligated from saying that to the cops.

Ok here is what I had earlier that never panned out, source or confirmation.

The Texas group can't believe the amount of (stuff, crap, objects, areas) that there are on the island. I don't think this means trash or that the place is unclean just they move for minutes of search and they find "something" and either have to catalog or discount and move on. As of tonight there was no word of having turned over anything or them having anything of interest. Again never got reported therefore we have no facts.

There were rumblings of more arrest, rumblings of releases and final rumblings of a trip back to the PD for JVDS and PVDS. None of which happened.

So here is what I am looking for between now and 6am either releases in the middle of the night or nothing. Then 8:30am hearing for who is left.

So don't put it in a timeline, don't quote it really isn't that important since it didn't happen.

OK. Didn't the LE dig up the beach at the Marriott (forgot to add that to timeline)? With the too-happy panty guy and the radio station calling for diggers in the morning before the LE got there in the afternoon? Hasn't this area been thoroughly searched? Tuesday June 14.

GREAT job, Write!

You are correct...it was confirmed several times....

 

The other legal question here that might influence the venue, even back to Holland, is the proper treatment of juvenile detainees.  Can you use the same methods under dutch law to "break" a kid?  I suspect that the prosecutorial crew in Aruba are inexperienced second stringers (as Poor Paulus may have been).  They are also his former colleagues.  They may be over compensating for their initial disbelief that Joran could be involved and reacting to external pressure the likes of which they surely have never seen in their lives by putting their toughest face forward.  It appears to me that unless they get a break, this one will be in the courts for a long time.  if these guys don't talk, as they apparently are not in any productive way, they can't hold them for the legally allowed time without wearing everybody down and destroying their tourism based economy in the process.

Ladyhawk, yes the judges are coming from Curacao, and it would be a miserable 3 hours on the boat. The waters are very choppy in between Cur. and Aua.

 :arrow: Then lets add/ just for shits and giggles/
the news on fox today re oil prices and need for refinreies....
close now to $60 barrel??
maybe it is bigger than state of texas!!!

Yes, great timeline!  One interesting thing Greta said this evening is that PVDS told her in the interview that he was gambling with his son the evening of May 29th at the HI, then left his son there, and then JVDS called his Dad at 11PM from Mcdonalds to get a ride home.  It suprises me that ,being a Judicial offical, he would admit to that.  Isn't it illegal yo gamble at 17 in Aruba?  Although he wasn't charged with contributing to the delinquincy of a minor.

I think its a bit disgusting to see Jug smile with glee at Paul's arrest.  He'll probably be so happy if they charge AVDS as well.

You know when people get killed or murdered you always see the family crying and sobbing...I have not seen it in MSM. Maybe they cry off camera, but it sure looks cold to me...it raises no sympathy...so I hope hope the spin doc relay this to the them.

iquietos, as I understand, they brought in Dutch experts in interrogating. I don't think these people would have any loyalty to PvdS

Please share.

I did meet a girl (one of the first to file a lawsuit about it) who was given a roofie. She said she couldn't move.

This, I'm sure will not be popular but, my dog wouldn't let Jug in my house with all his vinegar. To me, the way the vdSs' dogs reacted to strangers, told me volumes about them as people who live/brought the dogs up. Barking but tails awagin'.

WTF have u been???
I'm almost at 1,000....

Thank you for clarifying - now it makes sense to me that they should wait for a flight.

This mat be moot,but PVDS was not working prior to NH's appearence on the island. He was trying to get some type of position in the justice dept, clerical or something to that nature. People have posted that a part time judge doesn't make a very hefty salary anyway, but he was out of work. His wife is a teacher. Who was paying for nights out on the town and gambling? And was Mrs in Holland for a week? that would have menat the other two children were home, at school all week? Does anyone know?

Even funnier is if Joran did finish 4th in the hold em tournament, he beat daddy and took his money unless Papa was in the top 3.

Exacty.  Sorry, I must have read your post wrong.

Anything Paulas has heard from his son...even a phone call, confession,etc. it's protected. If he saw anything...a body, etc. he must tell.

I just thought of something.  What if they have a phone record of a call from Joran to his dad. The discussion in that call is protected.  Hmmmmm.  Weird.

Edited to add: I meant to say the fact the call was made is not protected, but what was said is.

Companzi stated:"I think its a bit disgusting to see Jug smile with glee at Paul's arrest. He'll probably be so happy if they charge AVDS as well. "

I suspect Jug was reacting with the manner PVDS obstructed the investigation the first night.

I ws shocked when he said that....that poor woman has been through enough.....I know many will not agree with me....but it's my opinion.  Certainly it doesn't compare to what Beth and family have been and are still going through....but as Arubagirl says...anything she might know (and I doubt she knows a thing) would be protected. As far as her being the easiest to break...I think not....remember she would be the lioness is protecting her cub...

JM thoughts

<<Or, in other words... who MISLEAD the investigation since the beginning.>>


Yeah, like no searches tied to JVDS and the Kalpoes for a week and a half... totally Jug's call!

Do we know if LE ever took anyone back to the beach drop off spot(if there was one) to look for any evidance?

Compananzi - I'm not sure I follow your post but I do feel queazy about the speed of response from the Natalee's parents and the level of it. I could imagine Beth and Jug flying in to "wait for Natalee" and ask questions and push the police to investigate but there's something about Jug and 5 buddies (I think that's what he said the other night) and the FBI and the DEA all descending that fast - coupled with the complete shutdown of any negative info or even informational info from MB students that sits in the back of my mind nagging. Not even speculating here, just recording uneasiness on this score.

Does anyone know when Joran's birthday is?

My understanding is that no one has yet been formally arraigned.

If Joran were to turn 18 before he is charged with murder, could he then be tried as an adult?

kkial, I can understand the willingness of the police to ask her, but what precisely would they ask? "So, saw anything different when you came back?"

He was also a law professor.

I would have JVDS out there every night at 3am in the dark. Then place a tape over loud speakers with Natalees voice.

Soo, arubagirl, why did you allude to the issue that you would be crazy to snap a shot of the VDSs' backyard? Is it taped off? Is it a media frenzy? How close can one get? Curious...thx.

In Dutch law (which again, is not 100% identical to what they have on Aruba), you do not have to say anything at all during the pre-trial investigations. During a trial, you do not have to relate any information that might  incriminate yourself, your spouse or ex spouse, your (grand)children, (grand)parents or sibblings, or even uncles, aunts, cousins and nephews in 'up to the third degree'.

I remember reading on one of Jorans boards that his birthday is in August.

sounds reasonable!
they say ignorance is bliss but
maybe its just plain stupid ignarance.

I suspect if they do arrest her, it will be soley to put pressure on PVDS and JVDS.

Daniel, for real? Wow, didn't know that.

Kipster, urm, it's a backyard. To take a picture I would have to go the back of the house. I'm pretty sure that the walls are high, and my camera can't take pictures through walls, so that's not going to happen.

Also I think Nat was on de palm tours on the 29th, from 930 - 2 pm.  I don't think all 140 MB students could jump on this boat.

Also Deepak does not end work at 10pm, according to the mom he finishes at 11pm.

Also the Soul beach Festival was from 7-11pm. starring Lauryn Hill..Nat could have been there..

He was in the past or he was teaching at the time, Antonio Carlo was one of his students, was this in Aruba? I read that he was out of work and looking for a position with the justice dept, or some related position just recently.

Regarding Jug's description of PVDS' and Deepak's obstruction the first night, in how (I assume) they both were telling JVDS (who Jug says wanted to help) "not to say anything." I personally think that is really why PVDS was arrested. But more curiously to me, how does Jug's description of that night jive with  Beth's, who claimed that JVDS was rude and arrogant to her?

Is it true on top of it that Beth was in Arkansas and had to drive home first?

Jug and Beth Twitty are the kind of people who're determined to find their daughter and they really don't care too much what anyone thinks of why or how they go about it! They are VICTIMS and they don't need all the finger-pointing at them right now. They are more worried about RESULTS than IMAGE.

LOVED it!  LOL! ROFLMAO!  :D  :D

Nat was at the BOYZIIMEN concert, Soul Festival.

I believe I heard them say on the news that he was also a teacher and had been turned down for the position as a judge.  (On Geraldo tonight)

Well, Sb, I'm curious why she went to JvdS house, and not for example the Kalpoe's house.

I am not so sure that they did not talk to her last weekend..remember she was there at the same time as PVDS..I would ask a lot of the same questions that Greta asked....She certainly is not responsible for anything that her son "might" had done...that is all..I feel sorry for her

The interrogators wouldn't but what about the prosecutors who are his colleagues?  the appearance is that they first cut him slack and then slammed him hard.  Was that a tactic?  Rudy Croes said it was.  Now Rudy says they are using Paulus to get at Joran.  Is he not the Minister?  What is he doing talking to Gerardo?  

I am talking about perception here.  I am in no position to judge any of it.

Before 9:30 or after.

Companzi stated:

"Also Deepak does not end work at 10pm, according to the mom he finishes at 11pm."


Actually the Internet Cafe closes at 10 p.m. on Sunday according to the sign on the door that was shown on Fox News.

goon squad wrote:
 
"<<Or, in other words... who MISLEAD the investigation since the beginning.>>

Yeah, like no searches tied to JVDS and the Kalpoes for a week and a half... totally Jug's call!"

What?  I don't understand what you're saying...?

LOL... I saw that :D But I haven't too much patience to spend my time hearing only SIDED opinions.
I'm furious when I see "Tupperware" brainstorms :roll: so... I take my "papers" and go to the beach :wink:

Could be because they know their daughter and she would NEVER do something like this. They had a friend arrange a private charter so they could leave immediately. I'm sure, by the time they got there the police were involved already on a missing person report by the chaperones/hotel personnel and I will bet my tutu Beth spoke with Natalees friends too. Only makes sense. Because she was an American, the FBI was notified and it may even have been through the Aruban Police that they were notified.

iquitos, I have no idea what did idiot is doing talking to Geraldo.

As for his former colleagues...I don't see where a colleague would demand such loyalty, I know that I'm not that loyal to my current ones.

u r funny!!!!
lolololololololollo
why don't i go to kennedy compund ???

so you have this all in one place, was Anita already questioned?  why does jug not know it or does he want more?

Natalee was said to not have taken the cruise but went snorkeling.  Depak's mother was very clear, his quiting time was not usually when he left.  Many times he worked later to help.  She had no difinitive time as she didn't know.

Why couldn't Natalee have attended the concert? She could have gone early to see some of the music and left.

It would not surprise me the posey that came down was tired, angry and focused all their frustration right or wrongly on PVDS and JVDS.  Having people yell obscenities and accusing you of kidnapping might I say might raise some one to be defensive.  I do not see anything strange the way the Van Sloots acted and being the law gear head that Paul is its natural that training kicks in.  Whether you are innocent or not the best thing is to keep quiet and let the lawyers do the talking.   PVDS, did say to Jug " you have no manners" I think that might have been a reference to his fould mouth sailor vocabulary...just my opinion.

Maybe everyone but Joran went to Holland. it was some kind of family thing and Paul may have tied it in with work-related issues. Maybe he came back alone Sunday and Mom came back with the 2 younger boys wednesday. Because remember that post on Valentijn's website telling him to have fun in Holland? (or something like that)

We have stories from early on that this was not the case. The police were willling to wait 48 hours. It took the info from the family and the reaction of the VDS pair to get the report.

>>Kipster, urm, it's a backyard. To take a picture I would have to go the back of the house. I'm pretty sure that the walls are high, and my camera can't take pictures through walls, so that's not going to happen.

Urm, sorry, most American backyards are not walled compounds. One of those periscope digicams and a ladder coming your way via container ship. :)

yeah-nice job if u can get it!!!
u must know TTown Mike....LAZYASSS he said it himself!!!!

THe first reports said she went to the BOYZIIMEN concert, and then out to eat at CnC's. I'm not sure of the timeline.

It wanted to help in the beginning, before he father told him to shut up. After the heated arguments and her mother was clutching Natalee's picture, she said she wanted her daughter, that is when he said What do you want me to do about it. It was during the heated discussion before they left.

Some of you guys are really grasping at straws here.

Of course her parents are going to fly down their the first chance they get.  They know their daughter and if they feel that she is not the type of person to be late or irresponsible then they are going to go and try and find her as soon as they can when they find out she is missing.

Too my knowledge their hasnt been a shutdown of any negative info, only that their isn't really any to report.  By all accounts she seems to be a fairly good person.  Sticking up for your daughter/friend and saying that she is a good person is hardly a shutdown of any negative info.  ANd actually a lot of the MB students have given info.  From the interviews on Fox to interviews they have done with local papers.  Hardly a shutdown on information.  

The DEA agent was already in the island for an unrelated reason and was in the best position to help the family that is why he was involved.  

As to the FBI who knows?  Maybe the family has connections.

Technicaly what "counts" is the date of the "crime".

My point was if LE has not indcated where the drop off on the  was by searchng a particular area they may think the Beach story is another Lie
Where is  the beach from the area oidentifed on the time line.(HOW was THIS IDENTIFIED)
6:30 am Call to or from Joran’s cellphone in area of Santa Lucia

"I would have JVDS out there every night at 3am in the dark. Then place a tape over loud speakers with Natalees voice." Your are too nice Let BTh or Jug spend 15-30 min, with him.

BTW has anyone aked for a POLY to prove they are not Lying?


THNKS

As far as the shut down of information from the MB students, I don't think that anyone is telling them not to talk.  I think that it is their choice to do this.  They have got to be feeling guilty about what happened to her and therefore at this point are being very protective of her and not saying anything that would put her or her family in a bad light.

Can you imagine Paul coming to Aruba at 5pm sunday, then less then 10 hours later all hell breaks loose?

Per this link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160231,00.html

VAN SUSTEREN: Have you spoken to any of her friends that saw her on May 30 because she left Carlos and Charlie's?

TWITTY: Not in person. I really have not.

---

Am I supposed to think that she didn't speak to them at all or that she spoke to them via phone?
[/url]

Does anyone know if the Aruban authorities or the FBI has the full archive of Joran's websites before they were altered or taken down?

If, in fact, Joran drugged and raped Natalee, it is quite plausible that she was not the first victim; just the first to die.

If the names of the American girls whose photos appear on his sites can be identified, they should each be contacted and asked the nature of their relations and contact with him.  

I would be most curious to know which of these girls recall spending their last night in Aruba with Joran.

I believe his MO would be to prey upon already intoxicated girls who would have a murky recollection and questionable credibility.

Even if Natalee's death was drug-induced but unintentional, Joran may well have tried to cover it up because it's unlikely to be perceived as consensual if Natalee was a virgin prior to that night.

I think that's what the "People" article says. She tried to get a police escort and couldn't, so she was doing 110 mph and got pulled over, told them what had happened and then I think she got an escort.

I am a big fan of non violent passive torture. Natalees voice on that beach at the same time every night would be a sound that would kill him inside.

I think that interview with O'Reilly was very revealing, the male MB appears much more open and honest and not trying to paint some kinda of Stepford image of Nat.  We learned from his info and Bill's questions the following.
1. nat and Joran met days prior maybe up to 3 days before the dissapearance.
2. The played poker together.
3. He did not see anthing wrong with Nat and Joran hanging out at CnC

What is this story today about Paulus being unemployed?  

He was appointed to his KABNA job in January, 2003, for a period of three years.  There, he was deputy member of the Common Court of Justice of the N.A. and Aruba, serving as under-secretary to the Attorney-General.

While he was doing this job, he was also studying for a judgeship and had taken the entrance tests once without passing, so he had been given a few cases to hear part-time (3-4 per month, I read somewhere) in preparation for again trying for a full-time judgeship.

So, where did they get that he was unemployed while he was doing this?  He still had his regular job, he was just trying to move up and hadn't made it yet.

I know Geraldo "announced" tonight that Paulus flunked the judge tests a week before Natalee went to Aruba, and that he had no job, but isn't this just like all the other bologna Geraldo mis-announced last time he was in Aruba?

Last week, before PvdS was *detained* but while all this was going on, Anita said that they had taken Paulus's cases away from him--and he was without work--but as I see it, all this latest stuff was because of the case.  Someone had loaned him a nice Mercedes he was driving every day and they *said* he was going to work in it.

Strange that much of GR's story is the one we already heard, except PvdS was *not* unemployed.  This smells a bit.

They are friends with Jeff Sessions, I think he is a senator.
Coco, would you not do the same for your daughter or son? I would walk on water, I would even kill for my child. Unless it happens to you, you cannot understand the pain and having to do something right then, You can not sit back and wait, the first 48 hours are the most crucial. I would call on anyone I new to help, they are just fortunate to have many friends and also ones with healthy bank accounts that can help them.

arubagirl, I think they went directly to the VDS house because the evidence they had was that Joran was the guy Natalee had met before. There was...and IS... NO evidence, not ONE SHRED, that Natalee had seen or met the Kalpoes before and for all we know, she thought they were taxi drivers.

maybe...so then as R? would say......
come on down Anita!!

and also
Rob is currently in aruba and absolut asked earlier if there were any special requests....
so far...shark feed place/ north lighthouse/marriot beach at night....
interestingly dark I imagine...

any other requests????

That's interesting because that's the first I heard that Paulus may have gone and returned early. First AVDS said she was gone for the weekend, then the week. I think there were some off days earlier in the month for staff, just wondered why she would be out of town during the week before finals if she taught and had children in school.

I am curious, (and not to start the whole "don't blame the victim because I think we all know I would never do that) does anyone realize that if this crime happened in teh US the Twitty's and Holloway's would be throughly investigated as normal procedure?

I am kind of curious as to why everyone thought it was such an outrageous thought for anyone to have suiggested it. I mean in the US they would have already raided Natalee's room etc etc looking for any clues and leaving no stone unturned.

Compananzi, per this link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160385,00.html, her friends say that she first met Joran  on the night of May 29th into May 30th. May 30th is when she was supposed to fly home.

No one is painting a stepford image of Natalee.  They are saying she was a good girl who was responsible, smart and level-headed.  No one has said that she was perfect.  And none of the points you listed would even contradict a stepford (unrealistic) image of her.  Is it so hard for people to believe that she was a good person?

born Aug. 6, 1987

I see what you are saying...   I still think that BTH could get some info from him.  JUG would of course be that absolut (no pun) resort.

But Lhas Le been in particular are of the beach.

thnks

I'm sure Beth Twitty has spoken with kids on the trip.  The article in the July 4 issue of People magazine mentions that Jug spoke with Natalee's cousins Thomas and Hunter Twitty who were on the trip and learned that Thomas has played poker with Joran that same night.

But, since her friends obviously didn't know where she was at all times, isn't it possible she met Joran before 5/29?

arubagirl:
>>Am I supposed to think that she didn't speak to them at all or that she spoke to them via phone?

Pretty obvious the FBI spoke to them and told her what to say.

Arubagirl, have you heard any rumor that Joran is literally biting his tongue to make himself unable to speak? A source elsewhere (who has been almost as reliable as you) stated it a few times. He did not confirm or deny when someone translated it as being in the literal sense, and did refer to it as the boy's poor bloody tongue.

You are so right but they are not home, they are in a foreign country with a different legal system and their antics can backfire on them.  What, for example if they change the venue to a less vulnerable place, like the Netherlands.  Would they have as easy a time of bullying there.  Beth could stay in Aruba to find her daughter but all the action would be somewhere else.  Somebody said sugar works better than vinegar or something like that.  They can pressure in camera but should be careful publicly.  Note the stark contrast between Mr. Hollaway and Mr. Twitty.  I think Holloway will get further than Twitty with the locals.  BTW, there is such a thing as too much media face time by the principles.  Sometimes it is better to dose that out and use a spokesperson.

Because they were not there on the island at her disappearance. I am sure they check her computer, room, everything a t her home. remember they were there talking to her friends and relatives and kids from the trip

I have a gov report by a committe expressing concerns that 16-18 y.o.'s can be tried as adults according to the nature of the crime. Unless the laws have he could be tried as an adult relative to the nature of the charge, like in US.

The FBI told Beth Twitty what to say? I'm not following you, kipster.

But she introduced herself to him, klaassend, so I'm taking that as a first meeting.

maybe on-line??? what a shock!!!


p/s
 :lol:  I WANT MY T SHIRT!!!

because the kids (and Natalee's twin cousins) from MBHS recognized Joran as someone they'd seen before at the casino and some saw her get in the car with him. the twins played poker with him. Joran had to sign in for the game he played at the casino. that's how they got his name. asked for his address. went there. Don't think they knew about the Kalpoes until they meet Deepak at the v.d.Sloots.

That is what I think, and it makes sense given what was earlier said about them meeting 2 days before.  
But with all the misinformation flying around who knows?

Lil, I haven't heard anything of the sort. Not to say that's not true.

I think many more kids would have to be interviewed, as the FBI did, before I would make any firm statement.  Kids see different things at different times from different perspectives.  Two kids is too few to get a good timeline.

Her close friends interveiwed said at 12:30 Joran and his friends came into CNC and it was the brothers with him.

Who gives a RAT'S ASS when NH and Baby met? What the hell difference does it make. Lacy Peterson knew the person who killed her pretty darn well.

Any ideas why if the whole family know that JVDS was the prime suspect that a lame poster was sent out and the first tv appearance was in the similar vane? (confirmed info) I need a good explanation so I can rest it aside..

http://www.geocities.com/dutch_on_aruba/nhposteraruba.jpg.

I wonder why they didn't fly over  to Arkansas and pick her up on their way to Aruba???  Seems like Arkansas would be a pretty long drive to Birmingham.  Over 5 hours, I'm sure.  Maybe more like 8-10 hours.  What part of Arkansas did she drive from?

I think those girls were flakes. Dash and others saw them talking on other days.

could someone tell me how long the plane ride is from Holland to Aruba? Thanks in advance.

the kid on o'reilly with dash said he was around all week or something like that.  i don't think the scuffle in the casino if it happend would have gone uncommented by all.  maybe if she didn't know him she knew of him.

Really? I missed that...when did they say that?

Someone posted earlier that this is not only used to elminate or include suspects but to build a better idea of who the victim is so it is better known, what scenarios are even viable.

I think there may be something very wrong with Jughead.  Must be a treat to be married to and a step-daughter of a mean bully like him. JMHO

DT - I understand what you are saying ... I've just been going around in my head trying to figure out how I would have acted if it was my daughter and all I know is that she missed her flight and didn't show up at the hotel. I'm not sure - and I know that by the next day for example I would have been in lioness mode ... I'm just uneasy with the speed at which things went from Natalee missed her flight to confrontations at the VDS house.  

I really respect Beth for her fierceness and her speaking up for the security guards and for her civility to the aruban people which is what led me to get interested in the case and start reading her obsessively. And I'm sure Natalee is a wonderful girl. I just really don't like the tone that comes from Jug and I am uncomfortable with some of this.

I think there's something about the assumption that "I know my daughter would never do anything irresponsible so I know you kidnapped her" that makes some little piece of me go hunh? And there's something in Jug's style that reminds me of problematic dads - completely different from what I get from David Holloway who seems to shun the spotlight and focus on the search ... I don't know.

...and I am uncomfortable with the feeling that even thinking these things is somehow blaming the victim or such instead of just another avenue for speculation and self-examination. I honestly find myself thinking Ok, if I got a call that my dtr missed a flight home from Jamaica, what would be my assumptions? It makes me think about things like what do I assume about my own kids, what do I "know" with the level of certainty people ascribe to Beth, etc.

Really just trying to think this through in my own head ... and trying to be honest.

The Brian Reynolds on the trip who was at CnC's. Could that have been one of her cousins? She had twin cousins on the trip. He ws the one who saw the shoving match,..and I'm sorry, these questions are on my mind. If so, why wasn't that known?

Selena, that beach concert thing troubles me too. The stories of the 3 guys and the stories of Natalee's closest friends all have her at the HI at 9:30 meeting Joran for the first time. At which time he supposedly says it's Sunday night, it's slow, nobody goes out, I have no plans etc.  Now I am NOT an expert on teen music at all but I have heard of Boyz2Men and if they were holding a concert that night, everybody and their grandmother on that island under 30 was GUARANTEED to be there where it was GOIN' ON! The word was that AFTER the MBers left the concert, they went to CC's.

I am HIGHLY sceptical of the Sunday night timeframe until Natalee et al. were at CC's. I contend that the Joran meeting was much earlier in the day and I have no earthly idea why people are saying 9:30 PM.

Why didn't the Aruban police hold all those kids for questioning?  They may have missed something by letting them leave.

And I bet he got beat by Joran too, now is that when the confrontation was?

I've been perplexed by this too, Arubagirl. Since day 1, the Holloway's have claimed they haven't spoken to any of her friends. How is that possible? It bothers me. I understand they don't want to interfere with the investigation, but aside from the few students who have been interviewed, we don't have any eye witness accounts (as far as we know) and the Holloways keep saying they haven't spoken to any of the students. Just doens't make sense to me.  ??

The DePalm Tours was a snorkeling tour. ..there was an early day concernt but she was on the snorkeling trip...that evening with Lauryn Hill (7 grammy awards), why not?  This is something her 'best friends can fill out'

 I would like to add a few more scenarios of my own--

Run-A-Way Tourist -5%-(my Prayers are for this one)
Kidnapping-10%
Murder-10%-(Drugged sexually assaulted death)
Drugged then succumbed-10%-(perscription drug interaction with alcohol)
Drugged then Murdered-2%
Accidential Death no one involved-25%-(drowned after she left Joran)
Accidential Death Joran involved-36%-(She resisted advances then accident)
Human Trafficing-2%-


This is just my opinion. No facts support these theories. What are your Scenarios and percentages?


GuyWdog

What if they were of the belief that Joran was responsible for turning her over to a drug dealer/kidnapper/pimp in exchange for money?

Who knows?  I don't see what it has to do with my post though. Maybe they thought it would appeal to peoples emotions to show the closeness she and her mother had?  I don't know if that poster has been confirmed by the way.

Yes, they went there based on what they had been told by "the quiet people". How convenient. No problem, no questions. Even Law & Order looks close to home. If the Ed kid could get friendly with a waiter/bar tender at C&C, whatever, don't you think someone else could also make connections?

Not in person--she was leaving to go to Aruba, they were on a plane to the US.

She easily could have talked to them on the phone.

You know, they may have contacted the FBI in the states right away -- before they left for Aruba. The FBI could have given them tips on what to do. Plus, they could have put them in touch with other organizations who could immediately tell them what actions to take when a child is missing (Missing kids/Polly Klauss organization, etc.). These groups have it down to a tee from years of experience (unfortunately involving many kidnapped kids).

Sb, I didn't go. Too damn expensive.

The plane ride from Holland to Aruba is about 9 1/2 boring hours.

Have done it four times.

SB
There had to be a gigazillion people still on the island at that time,..and after the concert, can you imagine what it would be like to get into ANY nightspot? let alone to eat dinner...

I don't believe they would have called the FBI for advice before leaving because best I can remember it was Memorail Day that day.  And you that is a holiday.

I understand that you are just trying to be reasonable, but the thing is nothing makes sense without these guys being involved somehow.  I really can not see her running away, and not because of anything the family has said about her character.  

I don't know about you but if I had a daughter and she didn't turn up for a flight home I would be on the first flight out regardless of how she had behaved previously.

Because Joran was in a poker tourney that started at 8pm at 9:30ish he was done and had finished 4th. Her friends said that they met after he had played poker, at the blackjack table.

I'm sorry, but who walks around with the FBI phone number handy?

Thanks for the answer. The source types in metaphor and riddle, but he's usually accurate and Fox reports it, oh, five hours later. :)

r u listening o dag???  
WTF?
"last dance" by donna summers??
all of a sudden stop/schreeechheeesses to halt/commrcial??


followed by song "GASOLINA"

LOL... I already "knew (http://scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?p=16708#16708)" him. :x

Well, Lil, then I would *definitely* believe the guy.

Im pretty sure it would be in the phone book. Plus if they had connections ( a senator for instance) he would have no problem getting the FBI involved.

arubagirl wrote:
If Jug said that, and AvdS is going to be detained, then I guess we know who's running the show.

AvdS wasn't on the island, so she couldn't see/hear anything. And anything that JvdS told her she doesn't have to reveal, so basically, there is no point.


Maybe the Twittys think that AvdS could possibly have found something while cleaning. I think I remember BHT saying something about Natalee being at the Van Der Sloots house at 3:00 AM the night she went missing.
Does anyone else remember that?

Sorry I messed up the earlier try - It's my first post. :(

DT, huh, in the phone book? The one they have in Aruba? Not following.

http://www.fbi.gov/contactus.htm

arubagirl:
>>The FBI told Beth Twitty what to say? I'm not following you, kipster.

That's my guess. :) The only thing I've walked away with on the MB folk, is that they may have been contacted/interviewd. No details--anyone?. My opinion is that when Beth was ragging the local authorities, the FBI stepped in and made her change that line with a tidbit of info and a lecture on Dutch Law. Since then every family spokesperson has exuded his and her confidence in the way ya'll are handling the case (smart move IMO). Reeks of FBI...

Jug seems to be the typical hard aXX business man that is successful, No Nonsense, goes by the book, etc. I dont think he is a bully, just tired and wanting answers. Her father Dave, on the other hand, seems very kind, sweet and very depressed over losing his daughter. He did not want her to go on this trip and probably feels her let her down by not being there to help her. It is a lot to have to go through and he seems like a very private person.  If it were not for Jug and Beth, I think this would all be swept under the rug. Sometimes you have to put pressure on to get results. Believe me, I live with a man just like that...

My daughter doesn't show up for a plane ride... I call the FBI. You punch in 411 on your phone. Maybe the chaperones called them. WHO FRIGGIN cares who called them.

So BobinTx, you think they went online to find out the number?

Good catch I didn't even think about that. That should have made all these cycles longer.

I'm not following you.  It was my understanding that DEA already on assignment (in Aruba? a neighboring island?) were contacted due to their proximity.  I don't know how/when FBI got involved, although reports have said Beth asked police how to contact the FBI before she flew over.  What makes you uneasy about 5 friends going over to Aruba, too?

As for the MB students...  That's kind of a funny story, I think.  It involves the far-reaching effects of irresponsible media.  One of the first stories in our local paper ended with the line, "MB students will not discuss Natalee or the trip."  I was shocked!  I happened to be talking to an MB student right after that, & I asked him, "What, we aren't supposed to talk? Who said?  I didn't hear about it!  Why didn't they use the email tree (of the students/parents involved on the trip)?"  And he said, "That's funny, the reporter wrote that because of me.  I went to the prayer vigil (the first one) but got the times wrong, so no one was there practically but me and this reporter.  She asked me all kinds of questions & I kept saying, 'I can't answer.  I'm a sophomore.  I wasn't on the senior trip.  I don't know Natalee, I'm just upset and concerned for her, so that's why I showed up here.'  Then she goes back and writes, "'MB students refuse to talk.'"  Because she didn't get the answers her editor must have asked her for, she covered her rear with this unusual spin.

Ok, so like me, all the folks in MB read that & blanched because they didn't know why they weren't in the loop.  Again, we all thought, we're not supposed to talk?  Why not?  Who said?  Well, we better not!  And so most kids from then on buttoned up, & a story that started out as false became true.  Amazing!

On several occasions I've talked to Marcia Twitty & the friend helping her handle media requests.  They both emphasized that neither of them had or would tell *anyone* not to talk.  

However, the students who have been interviewed are shutting down & advising others not to step up because each & every one has gotten completely screwed over.  In some cases, they were outright lied to by producers; in others, their words were twisted & quotes used to endorse information that they'd actually *refuted* in interviews.  In all cases, they've been vilified in this and other message boards.  They've been criticized in the same forums both for talking and for *not* talking.  

Heck of a situation for kids to find themselves in.

heartache, I care.

you punch 411 on your phone? From Aruba? Help?

Well they could always call home and get someone there to call the FBI, again the family seems fairly well connected.

So i am behind?

It's what I would have done.

Hmm..

Let me see now .. a proffesor once say to use check marks..

1. They both had good friends.
2. They both had a good social circle.
3  Both had scholarship and college future.
4. Both are honor students.
5. Both appear to like to gamble, (your in the casino your gambling).
6. Both appear to like the night life ( you in CnC your drinkin and dancin).
7. They both appear to like each other..

I guess if you have to be on one side you have to demonize the other... I am just revisiting back and forth again.

Santa Lucia is inland, kinda center of the island I think. Right? Isn't that the road that Joran would take to go to school in the morning -- heading south from Noord?

arlee, it makes me uneasy because the five friends went before the dad.

At first I thought the Twitty's found out it was Joran from the other students,..I'm confused....

Ok,..I see the 9:30PM time frame, but I also thought other students said they saw the Kaploes gambling during the week...

Santa Lucia is way off the main road, unless the bus had to pick up a student there as well.

Good point, BobinTx

It must be at least 7 hours..

It was a Sunday night, reported to be a "slower" night at the night spots. Especially with a big concert going on, eating dinner was probably not a problem.

Not meaning to sound sarcastic, but do you think the regular police shut down for bank holidays?  I wouldn't think the FBI would just leave on an answering maching.

I read somewhere that Natalee's roommates weren't too concerned about her not being in as she hadn't slept in her room for three previous nights, is that true???

Compananzi, it's more than that, 2 long hours more than that.

Now I remember why I prefer going to Miami.

Curiously absent from this case is any mention of the role of the US Conulate General in Curacao with jurisdiction over Aruba.  When an American is in distress overseas they are the ones who are supposed to get involved.  They have been totally invisible except maybe the DEA  guy if he is attached to them  Anyone detected any Consular (Dept of State) presence on the island?  Any statements from the Consulate?

Way offf...The FBI did INDEED talk to all the kids!

I'm back to Joren calling Deepak @ 2:30 to get a ride home.  Joren then text msgs. Deepak @ 3:15 saying he doesn't need to pick him up, he's found another ride.  

Who from:
  A.  Papa VDS
  B.  Steve Croes (sorry, I'm still trying to get
      Croes to fit into this mess.)

Does it take 45 mins. to get anywhere on this island?  There would be little to no traffic at this hour.

Is the text msg. a cover as absolut indicated was a possiblility?  If so, did Deepak take Satish home?  Did Satish close Deepak's door so Mama Kalpoe would think both her boys were home safe & sound in bed?  Why in the middle of all that was going on would Deepak bother to take Satish home?  

Or, were both Satish & Deepak at home?  To me, this gives Satish & Deepak an alibi that they were not there with Joren & Natalee on the beach.

Oh hell, I hope this makes sense...I'm confusing myself.  LOL

Sounds like a plan to me...(Edited to add) to investigate other potential victims.

writenow, thanks for asking. If you are unfortunate enough to be slipped one of these creepy drugs, I was very lucky. I was with my husband and daughter at a yearly crab-feed fund-raiser.  We had attended may years already; DD and her classmates performed. It's basically a family situation; everybody knows everybody. You buy your drinks - served in plastic cups and you don't think twice about leaving them at your table to socialize. What I remember is having a glass and a half of wine with a very full meal (I had thirds on crab - we knew the cook), watching the performance start about 8pm and waking up in my bad about 7am - with no knowledge of how I got there - or why I wasn't in my normal nightgown.

The good news is that we later determined that the "attack" was probably aimed at my daughter, and I am glad to have taken that hit. My husband says that I responded almost coherently to conversation, but I have no memory of doing so. At the end of the performance - he walked me to the car - again an act I do not remember.  He told me later that at one point I said, "I am so glad I'm with you." Again, no memory.

This happened about 4 years ago and even though I was protected from anything really bad happening, I cannot describe how creepy it is to awaken with part of your memory unavailable. I feel that to this day.  I cannot imagine the horror to have awakened feeling physical evidence of having been violated.

Bottom line - no matter where you are or what you are drinking - watch it being prepared and do not set it down.

Anyway  - based on what my husband told me, I was able to walk whilst drugged - so if this happened to Natalee, she might not have needed to be carried.

Arubagirl... when the parents were still in the States, they punched in 411. Why is everyone on the BB obsessed with details that have nothing to do with anything. Howcome the FBI was involved so quickly. What meds was NH on. When did NH meet Baby? Why was Mama in Holland? What color toilet paper does the VDS's use?  How many drinks did the entire MBHS studentbody consume in a year. What is the rate of Teen pregnancy in MB? What was NH's GPA?  What was NH's waistsize on this trip, compared to the same time last year? Maybe Geraldo is having an affair with Beth and that is why Fox is all over this story. :roll:

What if, when the brothers picked up Joran & natalee from C & C, they took the two of them to Joran's house/apartment?  If his intention was to have sex with her, wouldn't that make more sense than the beach or the car?  Then whatever happened to her happened at his apartment.  Then he gets the Dad involved in the coverup.

they are good friends with a senator, according to the papers he got the FBO involved

Oh, why aren't ArubaGirl , NativeLingo or any of the other 'on Island folks' on or staying on the board t help us know what is going on and to translate for us? Oh, maybe because we are insulting idiots or by definition, UGLY AMERICANS????????

Check your PM, I'm sending you one more.

flight time ams-aua is probably 9 hours.  it is 11 from london via amsterdam.  will keep looking

heartache, someone was theorizing that they called the FBI from Aruba. That's why I was wondering how they got the number. Jeez.

I have read his posts too.  I don't think he means literally.  Just that JVDS wont talk.

I was referring to all of the cycles, flight plan approval, contact to officials who give more than lip service and head from Atlanta or Alabama to Aruba. All of that seems to have started while the chartered plane was in the air. There are many other cycles that started faster in this case than almost any other.

The FBI has a command center in DC - they man it 24x7 as part of the DHS (Department of Homeland Security) work.  All calls over holiday and non business hours go there.

>>Way offf...The FBI did INDEED talk to all the kids!

Though I agree: Link? Quote? Proof? All I have seen or read says they have interviewed 'most'.

And for most people they won't do anything. If you think the FBI jumps on the case of every missing American (less than 24 hours in the case), you are seriously deluded. I have some personal experience with this.

The dad was coming from a different state.

In People Mag. it said she asked the cop who picked her up for speeding for the fbi #

Cancunmole... just as an aside... do you happen to know the lineage of one of the co-authors of "The Ugly American"???

aua girl has been here today.  

CancunMole, what in the hell?

"He did not want her to go on this trip and probably feels her let her down by not being there to help her. It is a lot to have to go "

Is that true?...her dad didn't want her to go?



I knew I liked him from the start.....a real dad, with real concerns for his dtr...

Well that is understandable, there was a question also posed why no friends of Joran has some to his defense. ... Well one or 2 did, but because of this massive exposure, there is on this side also a shutdown.  Partly because no friends wanna get arrested... Jug Twitty today mentioned his desire to see AVDS arrested or interviewed... I think Nadira Ramires, mother of the Kalpoes is next.

I still don't understand...?  Not being confrontational -- this is not even something I knew about.  So I'm not defending the situation, I just don't know what happened or why it is troubling...?

(I'll be away for a few minutes.)

To my knowledge having friends, good grades and a scholarship doesn't make someone a good person. Im not sure we know Natalee likes to gamble.

I don't really know what that has to do with what I posted.  All I did was claim that your original assertion that Natalees friend were trying to portray a "stepford" image of her was off base.  I've never heard her friends try to do anything like that.  And nothing we know makes her seem anything less than what her friends have said about her.  

Also, I'm not demonizing Joran. I really don't know anything about him.  All I know is that he has lied repeatedly to police and to NH's family regarding her disappearence.  I know that he is falsely implicated to innocent men.  He may have been a great person up until now, but so far as this story is going he is looking to be a fairly bad person.

My grandma was kidnapped and held for ransome 2 years ago.  The fbi was here to help us less than 48 hours after she was taken.

LOL @Geraldo and ANYONE having an affair!!!
( I heard that Marianne Croes was kind of hot...)
Scott,..a girl did allegedly have a story reported by the Post Herlad which I believe is the Birmingham paper, she was from Boston and met Joran and found him "aggressive" but I was never able to locate the story. I had the URL and it didn't come up.

Just following every lead.

Not saying it didn't happen but I would be shocked if the cops here had the FBI# handy with them.

No, Hunter Twitty and I think the other one was named Thomas. Is that right?

You can find this URL here

http://www.cdnn.info/news/travel/t050618.html

This should shed some light on WHO found out who Natalee was last seen with. To me this is a sticking point, as BHT has said many times that they have NOT talked to any MBHS sutdents on the trip. So many inconsistancies and so many unanswered questions....

GuyWdog

Mariaine and Geraldo... hee hee hee.

Thanks to the poster who said that Beth asked the cop to get the FBI for her.

Arlee, maybe 'uneasy' is the wrong word. I just find it strange that when your (step) daughter goes missing you don't take the dad along, but you do take five friends along. Dad is in another state, but still. Did other relatives also travel with the plane?

arlee Thank you for your really helpful answer about the MB kids - and for your tone in all these discussions. I know this is all close to home for you and I've wanted to say that I think you've been great.

And having worked press relations in some sticky situations, I really feel for the kids who have dealt with the media - it's mighty rough out there and they've done an admirable job.


DT nodding - I would have been on the first plane down too - but I may have been less certain about precisely what happened right at the beginning. I'm not sure if that's a bad point for me as a mom or a realistic reaction.  

and Jug makes me crazy - just a personal aversion to a certain style of man ... I'd take a David Holloway any day of the week!

the dad was in another state and booked a flight, someone called them according to his wife on TV, and said they found her. It was a mistake, the chaperone called from Natalees cell phone to her mother and someone thought it was her. The flight was cancelled, then they were told she did not call and then they rescheduled the flight the next morning. Again you have to get info in the first 48 hours. We  have lots of TV shows called 48 hours that is what the cops say is crucial for investiagations. The police told them to wait, she would show uo next happy hour. I am sure they wanted to kill somebody after that!!

Then why wasn't NH's Dad, Dave Holloway called right off? Why were he and his wife dealyed until Wednesday, June 1?

When I had a stalker who was monitoring my phone calls on my cordless phone (not cell) and who had threatened me about the Internet (long story), I called my local cops, my 911 emergency number.

The detective who listened to my story said it was FBI jurisdiction and just patched me through to an agent.

ty writenow,..I was thinking Reynolds as in Paul(uncle)
It must be hard to think of first name that sounds good with Twitty

Such a hoot!!

Im not sure how long it took them to be sure Joran had something to do with it.  Maybe they were just being presumptuous, who knows?

Agreed about Jug.  But I wouldn't pass judgement on him given his situation.

>>Oh, why aren't ArubaGirl , NativeLingo or any of the other 'on Island folks' on or staying on the board t help us know what is going on and to translate for us? Oh, maybe because we are insulting idiots or by definition, UGLY AMERICANS????????

Aww, their hides are leathered from dealing vis-a-vis with our dumbasses daily. Lil message board adrenaline shouldn't scare them off. ;) However, what happened to --- & other AL folk?

Being kidnapped and held for ransom is quite different from a missing person.

The FBI handles all Internet issues as it's across state lines, etc.  If I recall they even have a spot on their site where Internet/email issues can be sent to them.

Not that any of us ever believed it but found out today that Mr. Holloway is an insurance agent for a major insurance co(think Farm) so that would make it more unlikely that he would take out an insurance policy on his daughter for the purpose of defrauding.

That's right

Maybe, after having spent every night at C&C, despite having to pay for drinks, no one could speak?

I believe it was the son who called Dad.

Just wondering....

Is it possible that Joran never went home at 11pm? Is it possible that he and Nat hung out from the time they met at the casino and then, went to CC together. If Joran was gambling until 10:30 (after the tourny) and Nat was at a concert untill 9:30, could it be possible that they made plans to meet up and Joran never went home?

Supposedly, Joran shows up at CC at 12- 12:30...he leaves with Nat before 1am. Is this enough time for her to trust him? Is this enough time for her to feel safe with him? Why would she be dancing/partying with someone if she briefly met him at casino and then, spent less than an hour with him at CC?? She obviously felt close enough to him to accept a ride. Perhaps they did hang out at the concert, casino and went to CC's together? Am I way off here?

I know that Dave and Robin Holloway have two younger children, so there had to be a lot of contingencies taken care of in order to leave, at least, I would imagine so.

What I'm not quite understanding is if Tom and Hunter Twitty, Natalee's cousins, were on the same trip, why didn't one of them stay behind with the chaperone?  And since they did leave and go back to Birmingham, has either one of them been back to Aruba for the searches--they are the ones who saw Joran and played cards with him or were around him in the casino.  They would be a big help.  What's the story on them?

According to local news,,,they wanted to talk to the kids and they would not let them until they had been debriefed by the FBI.

I am not in any way criticizing those who have questioned why the students from Mountain Brook High School have not been more vocal, why the public hasn't heard more from them, etc., etc.  I am not out to cause discord, I am just curious.

My question to you (those who want to hear from them) is this.  After everything you have heard to date from all sources, what exactly do you want to hear from them?  What could they tell you that would solve this case?  Why is it so important for these kids to be in the public eye?

You have already been told that nobody (especially those who were out by the pool) saw her returned to the Holiday Inn.  I think you know how highly thought of she is, along w/ her parents.  This place isn't nearly as "Stepford" as it's made out to be, it's just a small town, with small town, old fashioned values.

Issues I have had for a week.

It's no alibi if Deepak and/or Satish procured a drug for Joran to put in Natalee's drink.

It's also doesn't clear their names if they drove/dropped off Joran and Natalee at the van der Sloot home or a secluded location with the intent of allowing Joran to have his way with a drugged/passed out girl.

I heard the stepmom talk about this.


Said they got call from 16 year old? brother of nat--remember the Beth was not at home, that Nat missed her plane.  They waited all thinking she had just overslept and whould show up to go with second group.

When they found out she missed second flight they got reservations to fly there that day.

Then they got word that Nat's reservations had been moved to a later flight.  They thought that meant she had showed up.  They later found out that the chaperone had changed the reservations thinking she would show up.  They cancelled their flight though.

In the mix was also the fact that Nat's cell phone was being used, and then they found out that was the chaperone calling parents.

By the time they were sure she had not been the one to change the reservations, they got the next flight out--but it was not till early the next morning.

I heard this interview on television and could have a couple of things mixed up, but this was why she was explaining they did not leave till the next morning.

Hey, all y'all!
Is  it safe to come in here?  I been tryin ta catchup, sotaspeak!  As pre the following:




WHUTCHUTAWKINBOUT!?!?!?!?

I think they had hung out before, and joran was familiar with the MB people being in the casino so much, which would explain her trust.  I think that some of her friends actuall went with natalee though, so I doubt she was hanging out with Joran all that time.

My daughter doesn't show up for a plane ride... I call the FBI. You punch in 411 on your phone. Maybe the chaperones called them. WHO FRIGGIN cares who called them.

My grandma was kidnapped and held for ransome 2 years ago.  The fbi was here to help us less than 48 hours after she was taken.

It actually does matter, if the speculation about insurance is true, then it is possible that this entire "how come the FBI/plane/flight plan etc" could be because if in fact there was a kidnapping/ransom situation relayed to them and the Twitty's had travel risk insurance (it's a benefit I have where I were work, for example, and Natalee would be covered since she's 18, registered for college and can be claimed as a dependent until she's out of school, I think) there's a predefined plan between the risk insurer, the policy holder (the employer) and the feds that gets followed to expedite getting the family there and FBI involved in the cases of a out CONUS traveller's disappearance.

I am not advocating that Natalee was or wasn't kidnapped: what I am saying is that if there was an indication (either a ransom phone call, Aruba police, etc) that she was, this would be handled expeditiously in the manner that's been described.

Wow. You were lucky. Maybe the woman I talked to could move but had the mental perception that she had no control over her body. She said she did wake up in a place she didn't recognize and didn't know how she got there.

More Unlikely? I would think more likely she would be getting employee discount rates..

Are we absolutely certain the Texas Hold 'Em power tournament started at 8PM?  I thought it was much, much earlier in the day, like afternoon.

I'm guessing if there is a big policy that covers kidnapping (which I've read and not confirmed) I think it's because State Farm employees may have great packages that cover them and their family.

Just a thought...

they r definitelt well informed.

Well that is understandable, there was a question also posed why no friends of Joran has some to his defense. ... Well one or 2 did, but because of this massive exposure, there is on this side also a shutdown.  Partly because no friends wanna get arrested... Jug Twitty today mentioned his desire to see AVDS arrested or interviewed... I think Nadira Ramires, mother of the Kalpoes is next.[/quote]

I honestly don't blame any Aruban for not speaking up or offering any information they may have.  Everybody that does  gets arrested.  Yes, AVDS will probably be next.  I understand that the Holloways want and deserve to know what happened to NH, but at this point it is getting to look like a surreal black comedy.

But, that is not what ED said in the O'r interview,  and Repeat interview! Duh, even Dash (oh so sorry) looked at him like, what da F?

Question: Could the family just have assumed she was kidnapped and would that have sufficed for indication.  I guess what Im trying to say is would the family have any control over how the situation is handled.

Really, and who won?

It's not important that they be in the public eye, BUT having said that, does anyone find it weird that this girl, who is reportedly so well liked, appears to not have confided  (by that I mean girl talk) anything about Joran Van Der Sloot to them after meeting him, and basically (if the reports and rumors are to be believed) spent time exclusively with JVDS at C&C, to the exclusion of her friends?  I'm confused by that.

[/quote]Thought that at first, too, but then the other guy translated it to be figurative and the source continued on with the bloody tongue stuff. Will have to go back and read it over again. Thanks! Not sure why I care, just that it would suggest to me J is the one who tried to commit suicide over this.[/quote]

JMHO, JVDS is not the suicidal type.  He probably thinks there is still a way out of this for him.

 

was this gh vs rohypnol?

TRUE...but at that point we hadnt gotten a ransome note yet

Whose to say that she didn't?  It may not have been anything important though, just something as simple as saying she thought he was attractive.

It means alot. Who saw it, who was pissed and cared?

arubagirl

"
Not sure where the Time Line info came from this but what do you
 make of it given the beach story? One his way home or out of the  way?

Considering the theory Natalee was drugged, if she had a reaction similar to yours, she could have been under the influence of it as she was leaving the bar and her friends would not have noticed anything amiss in her behavior.  It could be she was already under the influence of a drug like that when she got in the car with Joran.

Don't know

Well I thought the father said to have picked up Joran at 11 pm at McDonald.  The father supposedly picked Joran up and went home...The Kalpoes are about now under way to pickup Joran to take to CnC

Question: Could the family just have assumed she was kidnapped and would that have sufficed for indication. I guess what Im trying to say is would the family have any control over how the situation is handled

I'm wondering, as I did in the other thread, if there wasn't a ransom call placed as a coverup by PVDS directly after the night Natalee disappeared. And in order for a risk insurer to get involved, it must have a missing persons report from a LE authority in the country where she was missing and/or a ransom contact. The call could have been made to the hotel, the tour company, etc. Once that risk insurer is involved, things happen FAST.

Correct.  But how do we know that they did any of the above?

I am convinced that the "young adults", not "kids" who have appeared on National TV have a prepared "script". Therefore, therefore there should be the number of inconsistnecises we heard.

Oldfart, I'm sorry, I'm not following. Out of his way? what way?

You know if you discount all of the lies, retractions, disagreeing statements, and things never released in the investigation, you have a very simple answer to all this.

I am new to posting here but have been reading for days.  The answers to so many of these so-called concerns have already been posted here.  One example is the friends of NH saying they were all standing outside getting into taxis to go back to the HI and right then and there, NH indicated to her friend she was returning with the second group of MB students, NOT that she was going with Joren at all.

She was at the very back of the group, taxis pulling up, loading people.  Perhaps because of his size, Joren was able to shield her from their view and hustle her into their car or it was the only one left as she was at the rear of the group.  I remain convinced she thought she was getting into a taxi like everybody else before her had done.

This would explain the mother of the brothers saying she never spoke one word to them.  She thought they were taxi drivers.

I am from Alabama and am on here for the poster asking.  It gets hard to stomache all the suspicion placed on the victim, her family and even the MB kids instead of whomever did this.   :evil:   Makes my blood boil and I can only take it in small doses.  Such a desperate attempt to find some dirt on the victim or the family.  Gotta wonder why!

Rohypnol
It is a potent tranquilizer which produces a sedative effect, amnesia, muscle relaxation, and slowing of psychomotor response. The pill is distributed in 0.5,1.0 to 2.0 milligram form (Restrictions have been placed on the 2.0 mg form). It is colorless, odorless, and tasteless and dissolves without leaving any traces. It takes effect approximately 10 - 20 minutes after ingestion. Rohypnol can be added to any liquid (effect lasting 2-8 hours) but when added to alcohol it produces disinhibition and amnesia (effect lasting 8 - 24 hours). Rohypnol can be detected in the blood for 24 hours and in the urine for 48 hours. Some individuals use Rohypnol as an alcohol extender for a rapid and dramatic high. This is something to watch for in social settings if individuals seem extremely intoxicated after consuming only a small amount of alcohol. Hoffman-La Roche is working on changing the formula so trace particles or a color would appear when Rohypnol is dissolved.
Street Names: Roofies, Rope, Ruffies, R2, Ruffles, Roche, Forget-pill.

GHB
It is an odorless, colorless, liquid depressant with anesthetic qualities. It is also used as an amino acid by bodybuilders. GHB is usually distributed as a sodium salt in powder or tablet form commonly dissolved in water. This drug gives a feeling of relaxation, tranquillity, sensuality, and loss off inhibitions (especially for women). The drug takes effect 10 - 15 minutes after ingestion and lasts 2 - 3 hours unless combined with alcohol, where effect may last 20 - 30 hours. Large doses can induce sudden sleep within 5 - 10 minutes.
Street Names: Liquid Extacy, Liquid X, Scoop, Easy Lay.

Ketamine
It is a new drug that has been added to the predator drug category. It is a powerful anesthetic used as an animal tranquilizer. It is available in liquid, powder or pill form. Ketamine causes hallucinations, amnesia and dissociation (a feeling where the mind seems separated from the body) making it attractive for a potential date rapist.

Street Names: 'K', Special K, Vitamin K, Ket.
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Which is?

the rumours are out yes she did talk about him, but they are not talking to the press and her one friend is having a nervous breakdown,

>>Not that any of us ever believed it but found out today that Mr. Holloway is an insurance agent for a major insurance co(think Farm) so that would make it more unlikely that he would take out an insurance policy on his daughter for the purpose of defrauding.

So what  (with all due respect) dumbass came up with this insurance theory? Sorry, but if I'm a reporter reading this board and see that,  I'm handing it over to Andy Rooney.

ummmmmm....yeah...
maybe too fast with cyber sex and all??
who else is on dag???

i'm crashin soon... nite all

I HOPE somebody can go back and look at this interview - it was the remote Greta did (from Aruba) w/ Frances Ellen Byrd and Ruth McVay (from Bham) about when Natalee actually met Joran.

I should have posted this DAYS ago, but didn't realize it would become such a big point of contention.

While watching that particular interview, I remember thinking "Greta, you screwed up asking that question and now you have them all confused."  I think Greta may have stumbled around a bit asking as well.  So, if ANYONE can go back and look at that, let me know what you think.  

I am pretty sure it will show that they were ALL confused and that the question was both asked and answered inconsistently.

Thats hittin the nail on the head, Pug"!

I just meant, I didn't have to look up any FBI phone numbers -- if any of Natalee's family had just called their own local 911 and told them the problem, they would've been given to the FBI.  (People were asking how they got the FBI so fast or something.)

Some of it I think is legitimate curiosity and trying to get all the details possible to make a good opinion about what might have happened.

But with a lot of posters I've seen it seems to be pure and simple cynicism.  They can't believe that a teenager might actually have good values and be a good person.  

And some of it is I think extreme skepticism about anything that is said in the media.  If her friends say one thing then they must be exaggereating lying.

Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.

Makes my blood boil and I can only take it in small doses. Such a desperate attempt to find some dirt on the victim or the family. Gotta wonder why!

Anna, welcome.  I don't think any of us are attempting to find dirt, only details like this are important to us discussing who other than those that are being held might be responsible for this. I say this because I don't believe that anything is 100% guarenteed until someone signs on the dotted line...and I've always been taught not to put all my eggs in one basket until that signature is where it needs to be. Know what I mean?  I don't think some of these questions are unreasonable, given what we know at the moment.

right. If you believe you have info you can share it.
In the event it is mportant- they;'ll call you/
every bit helps!

I'm so far behind...like 12 pages or so behind, you.

But absent the "confession" from any VDS family member or another close to this and tied to this, Arubagirl's implied-point that this duo's game is obviously wait-it-out for 3 1/2 months and go to trial on very flimsy evidence.

I'm sure this has been discussed X infinity and I'll see it in the next 15 pages as a I catch up.

I'm still not a true believer in the the Jug/Geraldo system of justice...{b]not ready to torch JVDS and/or the imputed conspirator, the "Dutch-slimeball-pour-it-on-demon-seed-father" Paulus; how can we be convinced before the Aruba court reveals its case?  

They make it impossible to definitely conclude otherwise in my notebook.

However, in 3 1/2 months, if it's shown that this is what they have, then I'm with those who say, it's not a very good place to vacation...Aruba...may be a great place for sailing and beach sitting...but there are places better for law.

Whitney

On the boy obviously.

They haven't arrested Lorenzo, Max or Larissa yet.

At the time they interviewed my daughter, I looked at the list and they'd already gotten about 90% of them.  That was over a week ago.

So, eyewitness account, if you'll accept that.

Ladyhawke or Liquid X, you can make it at home, odorless and colorless, looks like water, how easy is it to put in a drink at a br though, nuless you are buying. How was Nat drinking at the bar, from what I heard all she had on her was a drivers license, and I didn't see pockets on her skirt, Could someone else have bought her drinks, maybe even Joran?

Sorry, this was not a QUESTION, it was a response.

maybe lorenzoe is dead???
killed in speedboat accident??

I find this "though it was a taxi" an odd explanation which smacks of party line.  does that mean nobody from mb knew natalee left with Joran or that the joran and the Kalpoes were in the club and Joran was with Natalee at some point even though there were witnesses and a scuffle between Joran and some MBers outside the club according to more than one source?   And what about he Yahooo Aruba story where some MBers saw Natalee stick her head out of the car and yell out?  Did they think that was a taxi too?  If nobody saw her get in the car with Joran or thought it was a taxi, how can anyone be sure she left with Joran?  Of course we know she did becaue Joran admitted as much.

HEY, TT!  I've missed you lately.  Guess we've been on at different times.  :D

Well, somebody told Beth Twitty that she were leaving with Joran, or did the Alabama group just go to the van der Sloots because NH and Joran were talking in the casino?

Drugged dear!! Sounds like a classic case

[/quote]

There are also some trouble makers that just go through life making life disagreeable for others and they show up in discussion threads.

Yes bob, there sure are :)

Or the question is who lost? and how much?

 

she would have taken some emergency money too.  and maybe she won one of the free drink contests.  joran came on the scene late.  one bartender report  (not confirmed) said she had five vodka drinks.

I listened to the interview of Jug Twitty tonight and he did NOT say AVDS was going to be detained at all.  He said he would like to see her questioned as would I.  Why not?  Because she goes on TV and cries?  Because she says Joren is a good boy who does not even drink??  :?:

I think she could answer a great many questions that might be helpful such as are there any household cleaning supplies missing.  Not that I would expect her to tell the truth but I would really like to know if the bleach for example was still intact.  We know she lies from her saying Joren did not do any of the things he is shown in the photos doing.  But bleach destroys DNA as do other caustic chemicals.  Oh, it is probably useless anyway.  Everything seems that way in this case, having been so bungled at the beginning, there is no way to recover from that.  Whomever did it, Joren or otherwise, were given such a headstart at destroying all evidence, how could they not succeed?  

But did AVDS see anything out of the ordinary, etc.?  While I would be very surprised if she told the truth, at least she could be on record refusing to do so and perhaps this is some offense under this legal system.  Apparently, obstruction of justice is not at least that is what I am told.  I do not see how any judicial system could even begin to function without something to forbid obstructing investigations.  

But both the mothers of the boys go on TV and cry and cry while Beth does not and forces herself to maintain composure.  She is the one who might be crying.  That tells me a great deal but mostly that Beth knows her child has not done anything wrong.  And the mothers cry because they cannot see their boys.  Well, boo hoo!  I think Beth might want to see her daughter about now but guess what?  She probaby never will again, at least not alive, and these boys know something and are refusing to even tell what they do know and have even lied to throw off LE from any chance of finding NH.

My last hope is with the search team, if they fail to find anything, guess it is pretty much over and they (whomever) just got away with it.   :cry:

I've commented before on those extended family dynamics and your conclusions are not exactly as my own; however, Jug's public (on TV behavior over these past three weeks certainly allows enough to comment upon his interaction with Beth and that with NH....)  I offer his public statement about his relationship with his bio-son...was that George, last night, and his comments about Natalee...

If you heard it, you know what I heard...and if you didn't then you didn't...suffice to say it was different...it was.

Wow. Sorry you're so offended by what we're all typing here. I don't think there is anyone on this board who would say they don't feel badly about Natalee's disappearance or who don't feel her parent's pain. That being said, please keep in mind taht this board is set up for people who are interested in solving crimes. We are simply trying to put the peices of the puzzle together. I can see how someone related to the victim could take offense to it, and I'm sorry, but that doesn't change the purpose of this board. Noone is here to "blame" Natalee or her family.....we are just trying to place the peices to the puzzle, the same way we've been trying to place the peices to the puzzle of the Van Der Sloots.

I'm all Monkey Ears...Spill it     LOL

the flight left for Alabama at 2Pm from Aruba? I'm sure between those hours and the hurs that the Twitty's left they were at least able to talk to the cousins.

If it was the same tourney on sunday Joran finished 4th, I believe that is a jug reference.

DT - I think part of the questioning is that it's really rare to see a public case like this that is so completely controlled in terms of media coverage and image. Just thinking in comparison to say the Elizabeth Smart case where there were all sorts of runours and innuendoes and such - not condoning those but that's how the media operates and we don't see it here.

I also don't think it's that people find it hard to believe that there are good kids - I sure do believe there are good kids but I know that they are not perfect and more multidimensional than that - couple this with the image of "good kids with good morals" who go to Aruba for open bar all inclusive, casinos and Carlos and Charlie's at night ... it's an interesting picture of what our culture not considers "good."

And I think that that is part of what stirs interest in the case - we're seeing an image of acceptable or even "good" young adult behavior that is very different from the definition that many of us grew up with. This is not ... NOT ... blaming Natalee or the parents or anything like that - it's about Natalee as a symbol for a shift in our culture and how we react. These discussions are probably not meant for folks who are close to the situation itself - for you all, it's personal and about someone you know. But online, in a blog, etc it becomes also about ideas and broader cultural implications. One thing I value here is that I don't think anyone, no matter what their theory of the case, forgets that at the core is the disappearance of a lovely young woman who did not deserve whatever has happened to her - and I think we all ache for her and her family.

Apparently you haven't met our little Dash.

No scripts, Cancun. You're reaching here.

YOU TELLUM BOUT IT ANNA!  Folks tend to forget about drugs and for some reason want to accept the Nat willingly left with JvS after meeting 30 mins before!  Gimme a break!  He's known to be a liar about all this and she's not here to explain, but bein as she's gone, and he's incriminated himself, one should conclude he had more agenda than she did!  She is the victim!  I cannot accept anything except she thought, when she got in the car, that it was a ride to the HI.  With the three amigos there I'm sure she found herself where she didnt intend to be very soon if not instatntly!  I dont necessarily believe even that there was a trip to lghthse!  All we know of what the 3 have said is that "that was their story and they" INTENDED to stick to it!  ONce they start sqirming who knows whos still lying or fessin!  I dont think either Urine or the bros have told MUCH TRUTH IF ANY!

I am shorter and weigh less than Nat, but I tell you what, after 5 vodka drinks they'd be carrying me to a cab.

As for the parents, its been a long time and they are in the anger stage, everyone does that, I can say that from experience. As for teh kids, they seem very, very immature.  Almost like nothing really has happened. Some of the girls might have been jealous, some not talking maybe can't because of grief.

How would a bartender remember how many drinks she had if
1) it was a crowded bar with many people buying drinks
2) there were other blonde young women at the bar
How can the bartender be sure she had 5 drinks?  And what if she picked up drinks for other people? Just asking

There was a time line post (not usere of source) that was
"6:30 am Call to or from Joran’s cellphone in area of Santa Lucia"
Just wondering where that was?
thnks

Hi, Anna--glad you posted.  I think what is *significant* is that there is NO DIRT to find about Natalee.  It's good that all these questions are being asked.

I hate to bring up Jennifer Wilbanks, but for lack of a better example, you see what the public found out *after* she had gone missing and all had searched for her (I had gone into my 24/7 sleuthing mode by Day 3, after following a bit to see more about the case)--her parents withheld some info that would've been relevant.  She had a shady background that no one knew about.  Turned out to be a hoax as far as her being missing.

While it's hard to look at all this *crime* lingo and suspicion being directed at youngsters of yours and your friends, it is necessary and it's the only way Natalee will be found or justice will be served for her.  God bless you for being her friend.

CancunMole...sort of my point I'll be making...

If you saw the tape with Greta and Beth Holloway/Twitty making that surprise visit to the VDS-household...there was NO BARKING...in fact, there was tail-wagging behaviour by both of the dogs...and I think that voice was Beth HT's voice calling out, initially to the dogs, and then yelling, 'are you home?' to the inhabitants...all the dogs continued to wag their tales...with heads BOWED...

They knew that Beth had authority...there was NO DOUBT.

...and this is my last edit...the first was to place those ' and '....

the homeys...the VDS peeps, the owners and 'feeder' of these dogs-beasts-watchers were home!...for a woman as Beth to win over these doggers so easily says a lot about Beth and the owners of this household...

these people are very you-and-me peeps, IMHO.

Your "90%" interviewed confirmed the "most" part I read or saw, thank you arlee. :)

Please note in my earlier post that I agreed with you. The 'authorities' would not be doing their jobs (IMO) if they didn't have a sit-down with 100% within a week, and it probably would not behoove any involved to make it a public statement of fact that the interviews are 100% complete.

And the fact that they weren't carrying her shows she didn't drink 5 vodkas.

It's actually in the middle of nowhere ;).

At 6.30 am, if that's when the phone call took place, it looks very early for him to be already in the bus.

But damn, to go hide a body or evidence of a crime THAT far? Why?

Selena, unfortunately, whether she bought or not, unless she was carefully watching how what was served was prepared and keeping an eye on the beverage as it was delivered, particularly near closing time, she was in jeapardy. I'm guessing, as there was a time I would have felt likewise, that she paid no attention.

It makes best sense that if she ha any idea she was going AWAY from her friends, SHE WOULD HAVE TOLD SOMEONE WHERE SHE WAS GOING!  (But then, if drugged, who knows what she may have been able to think or do or say!)

>>Hi, LUNA. As you can see, I'm Puggywug. I post this alot when there are questions about Natalee getting in the car. Here is a quote from Dash's mom who also posts here:

"My daughter spoke with Natalee right after C&C's closed. My daughter & her friends came across Nat & Joran as all were exiting the club, and all were walking more or less together toward another group of classmates...

Natalee was walking unassisted (not falling down drunk), spoke ok (though not answering in long sentences), and was not touching Joran.

Nat assured them that she was fine, and said she was going to go back to the hotel "with THEM," pointing to the MBHS group just a few yards ahead. The Kalpoes were nowhere in sight; neither was the car.

Next {woman’s daughter} heard was that Natalee got into a car that many in the group had thought was a taxi. (Those look like regular cars.) It may be that the Kalpoes pulled up on the street before Natalee reached the next group; Joran may have deliberately stalled her. The group may not have even realized she was behind them, approaching.

But while we hear that she got in the car willingly, we know from her comments that it was not her pre-planned intention. Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .“
 
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=303&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=400<<

Well, I really can't help how odd anybody finds this but it has been explained over and over and even on this forum.  And NH has been called some very vile names by the Joren fan club because she got into this car but the poster just a few pages back stated that under the influence of a date rape drug that she walked/talked fairly normally.  While some may not like this version, it is the closest thing we have to what actually happened, an eyewitness account from somebody who spoke to her just an instant before they were loading into the car.

Sure looks like to me she did not even intend to go with Joren.  And there was a link yesterday to an article on the Dark Side about the practice called carving out where males surround the female victim to separate her from her group which it seems is sadly a common practice in the region.  Block her from their view and they from hers and just sort of jostle her along to the waiting car or whatever.

I can't believe everybody missed this post.  And I sometimes wonder why the same questions are asked over and over and over, even on the same day.  Sure, we all miss a bunch of posts but it just seems so odd to come here day after day and the same questions being asked yet again.  Sometimes by the same people.

What's up with that? :?:

This is really the saddest part, how many people will be continuously affected by this sad situation,the Holloways, Twittys, VDS, Kaploes and everyone close to them will have to deal with this for a very long time.

Puggy
At CnC's they POUR drinks down your throat! there is a conga line, when it passes the DJ booth people get shots down their throats, the waiters come to your table and pour shots, everyone can participate in contests where half the bar wins shots, it would be IMPOSSIBLe to keep up with one girls drinks!

But you're missing the point no one is claiming anyone is perfect.  They're claiming she was a very good person with good morals.  Nothing we know yet contradicts that. We don't know how much she drank or even if she gambled.  I wouldn't be surprised if she did both of these things.  But I think that is entirely consistent with a person who has good morals.

They are probably on the list.

This is absolutely true OIMO. I probably should have separated the question from my own answer................

I think its sad some of you guys are afraid of Jug, a lot of hot air like Trump. I don't really care for that type of attitude, I wouldn't jump down his throat.. That is how they hide their emotions, don't cry or they will think you are weak. Trump says that to everyone.

arubagirl, in probably watching way to much FoxNews, I think it was reported that the VDS' were disclosed to the Twittys by a bartender (or other worker) at C&C's.

this info came out awhile ago, but could be inaccurate. Can't remember now how it got out to the press. One of the lawyers? family? can't remember.

Maybe if someone in LE would give Joran a "shocker" (the hand gesture in all the tickle.com pictures) he might start talkin!  Or at least squirmin and squealin

Absoulutely, absolut! In a nutshell, thats exactly what we've got and where we are!  The only questions after that are really who did how much bad and who did more or less in a crime!

 Well put!

Here's a map of Aruba that has sites of interests marked. marked.http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Images-Fun/map3.pdf

Thanks, Ladyhawke. If that's the case then that would also imply that Joran was a regular C&C customer.

They did also go the CnCs. But I'm also sure they were on the phone with friends and relatives back in Mountain Brook who had by then talked to some of the students/her cousins/close friends.

Beth Twitty said she picked out Joran from hotel security tapes.

Sobelle,
thank you

the very first post on this topic at visitaruba.com bb stated she left with a drug dealer, it was by a mother from the group, they knew on the 31st that she left with someone that they were concerned about. the topic thread was HELP. How to contact police!

Hey puggy'!  Thanks fer dat!  I been in an out, mostly out!  Seems the more I'm away the more the discussion seems to digress!  I been spendin time wiff women, but Im here ta tellya, EVER ONE OF EM GOT BACK SAFE! KwnowwhutImean?

And that's exactly why the Kalpoes would change the story to cover for Joran. They all know he's gonna get the blame. Its just like the security guard that found the bomb at the olympics, he was blamed for planting it.

Think I've heard he's a Leo...that'd be ...how knows...it has august in it...give you a clue?

Night all, try and behave, the monkey always knows.

That makes perfect sense.  I know you've all seen Marcia Twitty on tv (Jug's brother's wife and the twin boys' mom).  All Beth had to do was talk to Marcia - I am sure she's perfectly capable of getting information from those on the trip and passing it on to Beth.  There you have it - Beth didn't really NEED to talk to the kids, Marcia, Thomas and Hunter could have taken care of that for her.

absolut I would really like to hear more about your expectation for midnight that didn't happen - you had some info on the search which sounded interesting?

(that said, I need to head to bed - just saw the time and I have  to drive my dtr to work at 7AM tomorrow so I can have the car ...argh!) I'll catch up in the morning.

g'nite all ... and DT - thanks for the discussion - I appreciate the exchange.

Whitney, per another poster he can be tried as an adult.

And with that I'm going to bed.

Good night all.

Don't you wonder? Did someone get their arse beat? Who was involved in the "scuffle"? Where was the "scuffle"? What was the "scuffle" about? We're talking peoples lives here, too many questions for this mother. If it were my kid being blamed, I'd be asking questions.

It sure would imply that. And to my mind, if you were about to commit a premeditated crime, you probably wouldn't begin at a place that knows you as a regular.

Have I missed any rumors, breaking news, etc.................

Aruba, Im sprised you hafta ask.  She was seen walkin out with Urine!  In a sec she wuz gone!  Beth et als asked questerns and got a name then bartender said "ask cabi" to find out where Urine lived so there they went!

Get it?

Jorans official Bday August 6. 86. according to a cache of a sports roster for school it's June 8th,..take your pic

 that would depend on several factors, including her prior drinking habits, what she had in her stomach, etc. we all know them

Good night, Absolut

Hi Shell....you knew about the hearing being delayed right?

 no news, hearing postponed until tomorrow 8 am.  geraldo was on with little new.  Mr. Twitty thinks Anita should be questioned as a witness.

What's up with that? This account is being posted on a message board rather than the news. I know the kids said they believed Nat was leaving with the next group, but we have no idea if Nat thought she was getting into a cab. This is why we need more eyewitness statements from the kids who were on the trip. But, aside from the few who have come foward on O'Reilly and Van Susteran, we have nothing else to go on. If the students (or parents of students) want to tell their story, then why not speak to the media? Why would this mother tell her story to Scared Monkey's and not CNN, FOX or any other news org. ??

I know you probably commented and I missed it but do you think Mrs VDS should be questioned, Iquitos?

Hugs Kerin!!!!!!!!!  Yeah I was glued to the tv at 3.  I hope I can wait up at 8.  Anita?  Why?

ok, its late and I am just gonna be a dumba** and ask this b/c sometimes ya'lls abbreviations throw me off..justtrying to catch up here with the posts..what is an MSM? <hanging head in embarrassment because i know it will be obvious when i hear it>

Why not?  The premeditated crime would be the rape of an American girl on her last night in Aruba; certainly not someone who'd be a regular CnC's customer.

I wouldn't have doubted that!  :wink:

What many of you may not be understanding is that the AL teens that went on TV did not have scripts. Actually just the opposite that I would defer to arlee to explain if she wishes. It has been researched and backed up by calls that I have made.

Maybe the teens that everyone wants to hear from would go on the MSM shows if they were treated with respect and told the truth. These teens committed no crime yet they are sometimes given a harder time than they actual suspects in this case.

Do not confuse nervousness and bewilderment with inconsistencies.

Was anyone ever able to come up with any good thoughts/ideas about what some/all of the 3 missing pieces of puzzle might be, as stated byaruban authorties?

sorry Shell..disregard that PM

I just recently read what MSM cause I was in the dark too about the term...Main Stream Media

That can't be right.  If he was born August 6, 1986, that would make him 18 going on 19.

Because the media might spin their story, whereas they could tell their own story exactly as they want it to be heard on the internet w/o the risk of people taking what they say the wrong way.

It has been pointed out repeatedly that her twin cousins were gambling with Joren in the casino earlier in the week.  No one ever said NH herself gambled and she may have been there just watching her cousins.  She probably saw Joren while there, however.   The friend who was there with her on Sunday said NH introduced herself to Joren which would indicate to me at least that this is when she met him.  Otherwise, her memory would be in pretty bad shape for one so young, wouldn't it?  Why would she introduce herself is she already knew him?  But he was a familiar face from hanging around the hotel casino so much.  But she introduced herself to him on Sunday according to the friend who was with her.  The same day she disappeared, although she had seen him around before that.

As for the oddity of BethH finding Joren so fast, I guess that is a shock to any who might see tourists as just a commodity with no family or roots or as being real people.  So many from Aruba seemed surprised to find the girl actually had concerned parents!  What is that about?  Did Joren think of tourists in this way?  Bet he was most surprised of all, if he did.

Some of the students who had stayed behind, maybe these same twins, identified Joren on the casino tape, locals provided his name from same.  Beth looked in the phone book and found the address for the residence from his name.  Apparently, there are not a lot of Van de Sloots listed and if they knew Joren's name at the casino, maybe they knew the father as well.  The chaparone had contacted the DEA agent while they were in flight.  The Senator contacted the FBI and I do believe a senator can locate an FBI agent even on a holiday would be my guess.  

It pays to have friends.  They can help and do things like this in a time of emergency.   :wink:

I can post what the National Enquirer printed 1 week ago if you are interested.  I know it's a tabloid, please don't flame.  It does give a bit of a different spin than we've heard before.

The woman's daughter DID tell her story to the MSM - it was Dash's mother who wrote that post. :D

Night dude ... see you tomorrow ... same monkey time ... same monkey channel

msm=mainstream media

Good Questions...we don't know because there's never been that viz a vie in USA/cabel/MSM TV/interview/press...

You get that one...then you've a SCOOOP, as they used to call it... [/b]

Nite arubagirl! Thanks for hanging with us!

Aruba girl & coco - night

Night Arubagirl! Still hoping for that Monkey "shout out" from you on TV tomorrow!  :D

 He's more my type too.   Interesting entries on http://www.al.com/forums/mountainbrook/ (Yes, The Tiny Kingdom has it's own forum!) I'm reading these statements about the Holloway/Twitty family dynamic which are to be taken as unproved gossip:
1.  "I think they don't like each at all, not even in a time of crisis. I heard that the mom wouldnt even allow the dad to ride on the private plane with them to Aruba. She said the plane was full with some of her friends."
2."It's more than clear that the Holloway's don't like the natural father.  After being notified that Natalee was missing Beth Holloway left for Aruba and didn't notify Natalee's father (per his first interview on Fox News). He found out through the son and then made arrangements on his own...I noticed that the step-mother spoke of Beth and acknowledged her as the mother, sympathy for the grief she's going through...For the record, I think that Beth has behaved in an exemplary fashion (except that she pretends that Natalee's biological father doesn't exist and I'm not the only one who has noticed that.)"
Beth and Jug are definitely Type A personalities. From descriptions of Natalee, she sounds like she might be a lot like Mr. Holloway.  When you look at the Graduation pics of Natalee with either her Mother or her Father, it's obvious there's much love all the way around.   Maybe the lawyer they hired to help work with the Aruban LE also helps facilitate communications between the two ex's!

WAY TA GO ANNA! That is an excellent post!  Some folks, when they "put themselves in her shoes" tend to think of the worst,(reckless behavior leaving your friends) and some "when they put themselves in her shoes" realize that they would not have willingly done so.(gotten into a situation)  This shows us insite into those two personal viewpoints which tells of how THEY ARE moreso than HOW NAT IS!

Or, could it have been because Joran beat the pants off some people at cards in the casino and NH introduced herself to him at some point and indicated an interest? I'd like to know when NH really met Joran? Is it per Ed who had seen him with NH and her friends or per others, or on video? If this were my son. I'd have someone in ALA asking questions,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

unless of course other people there were in on it. As I stated before, If Joran was a regular, he probably was friends with the bartenders and dj's. Could this be where he met steven croes?  Having been there myself (CnC's), I've seen the bartenders literally tip the heads back on women and pour drinks down their throats. Who's to say the bartender didn't do that with something in the drink? I think if I wanted to get a drug into someone, that is exactly the place to be, surrounded by my friends who could help me and would never rat on me. Just my opinion

Scott, He may very well have comitted the crime, no one knows. I just think (my own opinion) when he went to C&C's to meet her, committing a crime was probably not on his mind. If he regularly does these heinous acts, as a regular, with all this worldwide publicity, wouldn't another victim have come forward by now?

I'm not saying he was not involved - no one knows - and he most likely knows more than we have been told - I just think (whatever that is worth) that is was not planned before the meeting at C&cC's.

What does it say? And do they have actual facts or are they quoting aliens and psychics?

Most I've seen have said August 6, 1987.  I think the other incongruity is the Euro way of writing dates -- 8-6-87 transposed would be 6-8-87.

Post away!  My mind is wandering all over the place about all of this and I'm reading most everything I can  No flaming from me at all.  Thanks

Hang on, let me get it.  I'll just post a snippet regarding the scuffle.  BRB

Personally I would rank National Enquirer right in with Geraldo but hey, it 's all good!  :D

The woman's daughter DID tell her story to the MSM - it was Dash's mother who wrote that post.

Ok, sorry....I don't know who Dash is. My point is we have no idea if Natalee thought she was getting into a cab or her friends assumed she was getting into a cab. For all we know, Nat was comfortable enough with Joran to leave with him, or maybe not. If we had more statements from Nat's friends her name/reputation would not be in question. It seems like the MB folks are getting upset by what they're reading here, but we don't have enough information from the other students/friends to discount the rumors and speculations.

Thanks for calling me on my error though, Puggy. :) I love to be proven wrong.  :x  :)  8)

columbo



Wow, I almost take offense to that comment.  :shock:

Here might be your answer. Maybe just maybe, Scared Monkeys has acted with more professionalism, courtesy and honesty with the MB teens and their parents than the MSM?

Trust me when I say this, I have said to more than 1 MSM producer this past week that they better start doing right by these kids. All remember, this is not like interviewing an adult. Like it or not they are teens and the same sleazy MSM rules do not apply.

Why would they come on here huh and say it. Thanks a lot.

Maybe other victims have come forward.  We won't know until trial because under Dutch law, anything discussed in the media is inadmissable in court proceedings.

Also, sexually assaulting women on their last night of vacation is actually a scheme that is well-known in some places.  The women are too humiliated to postpone their return to their home, so they usually don't press charges or tell anyone about it.

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/crime/

DT, agreed!  No real evidense of any negative characteristics in Natalee! (Though some seem relentless in efforts to undermine her character)!

At the same time, Urine was seemingly "good kid"!  Im sure he has "charm" (see links around here to "psychopath") which if ya thank about it contributes to NAt being sucked in!  
And too, I see that no one seems to say that urine has done this before.  (But who knows how close he may have come with other TARGETS?)

What more do you need?  Everyone I've heard talk about her who knew her said she was a good person.  Not a single person has brought forward any charges against her character.  Im not saying she was perfect, but her character as we hear it from her friends/family was better than the sort of accusations I keep hearing repeated.

Columbo--

I do not know yet how to post a quote but think they waste too much space anyway.  What few kids have granted interviews have had them twisted and have been misquoted.  They are just kids and are not accustomed to being interrogated or made to feel that they did something wrong as has happened in other interviews.  They have been harshly asked why they did not look out for their friend and things like that.  They had no idea what was going to happen.  If you were 17-18 and on national media with someone badgering you as to why you did not look out for a member of your group, what exactly would you say?

Interesting that some want the kids grilled far more than the suspects.  And no, these are not stepford kids and not perfect but the sure do not go out drinking and gambling every night, either.  Just not done in this part of the country.

They are also from very privileged families, some of the most privileged in the country, some of them.  They have condos on the beach, most all homes have nice swimming pools, many private planes, etc.  Joren would not be in their league in this country.  I seriously doubt NH was very impressed with him at all, contrary to what some think.  He was younger than her for one thing and she was a very mature girl for her age.  I think she tried to be friendly and this is where it got her.  And Boyz2Men is no biggie here, either.  Doubt she would even bother to attend if they were in B'ham.  My kids wouldn't for sure.  Most of those kids also spent the entire days on the beach.  They were not some desperate gang out for any and every thrill.  I know dozens of kids just like them who do not have to have the wild stuff to have a good life.  And I don't believe any bartender can remember the exact number of drinks served to every customer like that, either.  

So as I asked before, why trash the MB kids, the victim or her family?  I believe if there were any dirt it would have come out long before now and most of what I have seen is just pure fabrication of dirt/suspicion where none exists.  Believe it or not, lots of families do not have deep dark evil secrets but even if they did, so what?  Does that mean their daughter should be made to disappear and likely killed in some horrific manner?  What am I missing here?   :shock:

A geat "post" to jump ahead on!...as the arlee states: (impliedly: 'why not? '....)... ...any reasonable 'thread person' would know arlee is to read in that regard....

However...I gave the reference last night...: If you were imprisoned bull of your faculties (and fully innocent of any crime...at least that you knew of;)  how long would you last?  

Let's bet!...and that's the sinister sort of line that, IMHO, this story line should begin upon...

The DEA agent just happened to already be at the Holiday Inn on some other assignment and heard the commotion between the chaperone and others in the lobby, then offered his assistance.  That's how that part happened.

http://www.picayuneitem.com/articles/2005/06/22/news/11friends.txt

Aruban LE said Aug. 6, 1987 (and spelled out August). Maybe they're wrong. Which could explain a lot in this investigation.

Or it could have been written the european way 6/8/87 (they put day month year instead of american way of month day year) and someone got confused. But they've been identifying him as still 17, so i don't think his 18th b-day has occured yet.

It's amazing the Enquierer can pst stuff like that and get away with it. Soounds like the Arubaian Police just need to contac the Enquiere..LoL..thanx for the link...

GuyWdog

When Natalee first went missing people started shifting blame to the adults that went on that trip.
I  HEARD ??  that they, adults, got a lawyer. It could be their lawyer told them and the kids to keep quiet.

We have to trust that the FBI have gleaned all necessary info from the MB kids and have passed it along to the authorities in Aruba.  I have no doubt about this.  I don't need to hear from the MB kids to feel confident in this.  My curiosity and my interest about Natalee might make me want to talk to the MB kids, but I know that it's not a good idea--for the investigation and for the kids.

http://www.postherald.com/me061005.shtml

your welcome, however, for those not familiar with this publication please read it as a mostly fictional work.  It may still reveal some names we have not seen as of yet.

Please, don't even mention Trump. I'm not afraid of Jug, I think he's an ah. I don't think he helps at all. My dog would not have liked any shrill voice, but I live in the "North".

I'd just to prefer to "hang out with Anna"...that's what I'm doing for this moment... :wink:

If anyone thinks Jug is outta line, FERGITTABOUTIT!
He is only admirable in his desperate search for his girl!  Others who may have found themselves in similar situations I'm sure look aty him with admiration for his strength!  As to he(they)and the media, if they didn't do the interviews where would the case be?  If they hadn't been there asap, where would the investigation be?  (1- lost in obsurity; 2- just another missing person report)  
They are wonderful parents doing all they can and appreciating all the help and support they are gittin!

SOTASPEAK!

So just keep "Urine" and his dad in prison. And then we'll all be happy right? Since we all know he's guilty of raping and killing Natalee. The Twittys should all be happy and content and can go back home. What more could they have hoped for? :roll:

I talked to a man yesterday that his parents live next to Natalee, the neighbor hood is just in-shock about this whole situation. This man knew of Natalee and he confirms how nice and sweet she IS.

GuyWdog

Anna....I was really touched by your post.

CM:
>>Or, could it have been because Joran beat the pants off some people at cards in the casino and NH introduced herself to him at some point and indicated an interest?

Right, it was the Depak e-mail that mentioned she gave him some cash to win back for her prior losses right?

a month, a million threads, breaking news flashes, dreams, still hope of seeing her smiling face live, THE reason I'm afraid of having kids...no way I could maintain

BS. They knew who NH left C&C with before they left ALA.

Not if he strictly targeted girls who were already intoxicated, heading back to the States the next day.  A lawyer representing an American girl who was admittedly very drunk would have a rather difficult time getting a rape conviction against Joran in an Aruban court.

If there is any pattern to his behavior, I would also lean to believe that he boasts about his father's standing as a judge on island, thus further intimidating any girl who can't recall exactly what happened the previous night.

THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER  6/27/2005

By David Wright in Aruba
and Sharon Ward

****snip*****

The National Enquirer can reveal van der Sloot had an angry pushing match with Natalee's friends just hours before she vanished.  The blow-up occurred on May 29 at Carlos'n'Charlies.  It's a sprawling nightclub and dance club in the resort with booths and several bars that serve yard-high margaritas for $12.  The club, a Mexican theme bar that offers us loud music and South of the Border food, was the place Natalee and her group decided to party before their scheduled flight home the next day.

Bryan Reynolds, 18, one of the 125 Alabama seniors on the Aruba trip, recalled that van der Sloot was chatting with Natalee and she seemed ill at ease with him.  When it came time for her to leave, Natalee didn't seem to be bothered by van der Sloot.  She left with him and the Kalpoe brothers.

****snip****

Is there any rumors of why they got in a scuffle?

Ditto writenow!  They were on the phone, looking at survielane at CnC's, asking who knows this guy, getting a name, a finding where he lived, going there, asking "You were seen leaving with Natalee, mind tellin us where you left her?"!

Then after encountering hostile defenciveness they began to DEMAND "WHAT DID YOU DO WITH MY DAUGHTER?"

That aint too hard ta foller now is it?

...um, their daughter?

How can these guys hold up under such intense scrutiny and pressure? since i am too lazy to write out my whole theory on what happenned that night i thought i would just write out what specific charges the current suspects believe they would face if they told the truth.
imo

steve croes - drug dealing leading to death, obstruction

satish k. - body disposal, obstruction

deepak k. - drugs(middle man?) leading to death, body disposal, obstruction

PVDS - obstruction

JVDS - manslaughter, body disposal, obstruction.

in this scenerio, JVDS, Deepak and Croes do not talk because of the seriousness of the charges and PVDS and Satish do not talk to try and save son/brother.

As to the confusion about when NH met Joren, ever talk to somebody without knowing their name or anything about them?  This might especially happen in a place where you do not know many people.  Ever talk to the clerk at the Dry Cleaners or the supermarket without knowing their name nor they yours except maybe from your check or receipt?

Ever speak to the people in the next cabin on a cruise without knowing all about them?  Just say hi in passing?  The point is not that NH never spoke to Joren at all but that they did not even know each others names until the Sunday that she disappeared despite having seen each other around.  If they had, it would have been pretty odd for her to introduce herself as her friend says she did on Sunday.

That is unless, again, there is some implication the the MB kid is just lying about it for no real reason at all.  Why would she lie that NH told Joren her name on Sunday if that did not happen?  Just to get herself grilled more about it?  I doubt it.

LMAO! Gotta love Mike  :lol:

Totally agree with you. Although Natalee may not be his own flesh and blood daughter, Jug sees the pain and torture his wife is going through and is acting as her protector.

\
...if you dissect it...and sorry for the BOLD...but I'm not certain any of us are saying/singing a different tune...I'll just go on the record...: (sounds like a lead-into-a Greta show...:

IMO, there's a dynamic betwen the Jug-BTH...that's different in their pursutit of NH!...both want to get this resolved...but in their heart-of-hearts...that'd be their souls...it's expressed the way BHT does, and the way the-Jug does...and that'd be the PC way I can 'splain-it.
[/b]

The accumulation of reports about the person she was last seen with revealed a discription of "a local drug dealer"!  Questions were asked!  Answers were given!  How bout that?

Well, guess what, there is one person, me, who doesn't believe that their cell phones worked from C&C to MB.  When is "by then"???????

Hi. From a previous msg in this thread he's born 6 August 87.
The "Aug 6" vs "Jun 8" divergence could be because US date are writed MMDD as "8/6" but european write DDMM as "6/8". :wink:

Didn't you hear? "Urine" and his dad and the evil Kalpoe brothers raped killed and dismembered poor Natalee, then fed her to the sharks? Yeah, that's it. Why even bother looking? We all know what happened...

I was wondering, does anybody HAPPEN to know how long Beth and Jug have been married? Maybe she is like a daughter if he has basically aided in raising her since she was young...i have been wondering about that.....

That none of this tragedy had ever occured and their daughter was at home, safe and sound??? :roll:

Hey Kerin!  Whutchudoin?

The cell phones only need to be programmed to send/receive international calls.  This was done when Beth arrived on the island.

LOL!  No fence!

7 years

I has been long enough for any woman who had any suspect encounter with Joran v/d sloot to have come forward. Maybe they have.  However, we have not heard of them.  Nor has anything been proven against Joran.  So it is no more than a theory that Joran is a serial date rapist.

I should change my name to "A Mother of A Son", thank you because we've had DIFFERENT explainantions of individuals conditions upon depating from C&C.

Yeah RED  And leave us not fail to understand that the interrogations in here at times would tend to drive em off, too!  Sotaspeak!

>>van der Sloot had an angry pushing match with Natalee's friends just hours before she vanished.

Nice scoop National E. However, after being reminded of that after 2 weeks, one punch from either party would have ended the freaking night 'peacefully'. Geez, what a story; it's so crazy I actually believe there's a slight chance she's alive! Any other case--no way in hell.

iquitos - Thanks for the links you posted.

pybrid - Thanks for the article

Maybe it's because they're innocent? BTW why don't you list the "evidence" against them. Sorry, that was rhetorical question because there is no evidence...

I think this article might answer some of your questions.

http://www.clintonnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050616/NEWS/506160357/1001

(Edited to move my post to the proper place)
I thought we wouldn't know whether or not other potential victims have come forward because details of the case cannot be dislcosed by LE according to Dutch law; anything revealed is inadmissable in court, right? Isn't that why none of us know any facts?

When I read comments such as the above, I start to wonder...have you (general 'you') ever tried imagining that it was your daughter who was missing?

inspector, I pray to God (and I'm hardly a religious person) that your comments don't turn out to be true - because despite all the information that has been 'sealed off' from us due to the different law system - everything points to foul play from the people now in custody.

I was not talking about other victims in terms of them seeking conviction. It just seems likely if he regularly targeted intoxicated American girls leaving the next day - one of them might recognize his picture, which has been all over the news.  It seems that whether his father is a judge or just one-in-training at this point is moot, since he is also in custody. It's the perfect time for a victim of this supposed serial preditor to come forward and write the best-selling book! There hasn't been one - or even a fake one out to just make a buck - doesn't that fact strike you as interesting?

Just want to quote/save this post for my own...she's special!

You're quite welcome.

Regarding Jug's description of PVDS' and Deepak's obstruction the first night, in how (I assume) they both were telling JVDS (who Jug says wanted to help) "not to say anything." I personally think that is really why PVDS was arrested. But more curiously to me, how does Jug's description of that night jive with  Beth's, who claimed that JVDS was rude and arrogant to her?[/quote]

Trying to catch up.  Good observation - I didn't catch this conflict in their respective descriptions.  So wonder which way it happened?

What were the Representative's remarks - I'm sorry, it was referred to here earlier today.  I have been looking but can't find anything about it now.  Something said buy a US "higher up" - Sen or Rep, perhaps?

However, his friends on his websites do tease him about "roofies" and his friends and even his family say how much he likes women.  And he is fond of hanging out at C&C's where many tourist women go.

Lying repeatedly is pretty good evidence against him if you ask me.  I don't know what he did, but he has something to hide otherwise he wouldn't be lying.

Wow.  :shock: I'm almost take offense that you would take offense at my comment! :shock:

Why wouldn't the MB students use the MSM to get their story out? How do you know that the MSM uses SLEAZY rules?? I enjoy this website, but in all honesty, it IS a website. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but are you suggesting that this website is the end all of all news?? We have the MSM giving every account of the suspects, yet there is no word on Natalee's friend's statements in the MSM. Sorry you're so offended by my question. Geez!

Uh Cancun?  WHEREYOUBEEN?

UH, oh... :shock:

You saying that there is "no evidence" is the same as me saying that there "is evidence". neither of us know what LE has. i was just giving an opinion.

Re Dash's mom, Nat said she was going back to HI!  Granted being 4 weeks into this some folks weren't payin tention, Iguess!

Now that was an article that did add dimension to Natalee!  Maybe it's just the difference in Mississippi and Mountain Brook style.  I love the idea of a girl who'd invent a closet with a magic KoolAde button, or who'd bring in a prayer list that even included the boys she didn't like.  Nice depiction of her personality.

The MB kids HAVE been quoted and on TV, in the MSM.  I don't know what you mean, I believe it is CancunMole who does not seem to ever catch the interviews.  This was a group of 140 students, not some intimate group of five or six.  I would think the vast majority of them would not be monitoring NH's movements but would be concentrating on having fun themselves.  I doubt they can remember which day they might have seen her where, etc.  Many of them might hardly know her.

But I have seen several on TV and there are articles posted in the newspapers all the time.  What exactly is it you want them to do or say?

Also, didn't someone who knows Natalee also say that she babysits children with autism?  She sounds like such a warm person.

In regards to the MB group not talking.......here is the proof they were asked by the Holloway family not to.

Reynolds didn't elaborate, and Barron said people who went on the trip aren't publicly discussing details of what happened in Aruba at the request of Holloway's family, which fears the publicity could hamper the investigation.

If everyone that ever told a lie was in jail, there would be a lot of people in jail.  :roll:

Whitney, I posted a snippet from the article a page or 2 back.  Let me know if you cannot find.

I may be behind because of my dial up connection but believe me, I'm not BEHIND. This girl's mother has from the get go been IMOO, been beyond involvement. I personally question what the motives are? I have bolded my question so there is no other question about what I am asking. I'm from Maine originally and I'm sick of the BS. Dash is no more a confidant of NH than ED. Did no one else (with the replay, not get that ED deviated from the script?)

Good point, Anna. I find it bewildering that some come out in the defense of Arubans for being 'media shy' and not grant the same courtesy to the MBHS students, esp. since they are going through such a difficult time.

The fact is, they have been contacted and interviewed by the proper authorities (FBI). They don't owe us (the puclic) anything right now and I appreciate that they have felt comfortable with the SM crowd to give us some insight and information.

Locker room talk?  Bullshooting?  I'm 55, but I sure remember the way my younger brother and his friends used to "brag"...the more braggadacious (spelling) a fellow was, the less likely there was that much truth.  The guys who were "scoring" were much less likely to talk.  But that was what==well, skip the math, let's say a long time ago.

Actually, Dash said she is not one of Natalee's closest friends.  But, they are friends, and they were Calculus partners.

I may be behind because of my dial up connection but believe me, I'm not BEHIND. This girl's mother has from the get go been IMOO, been beyond involvement. I personally question what the motives are? I have bolded my question so there is no other question about what I am asking. I'm from Maine originally and I'm sick of the BS. Dash is no more a confidant of NH than ED. Did no one else (with the replay, not get that ED deviated from the script?)[/quote]

What does being from Maine originally have to do with this?

I agree. The teens came on here and answered ever question people had long before they ever hit the MSM circus shows. Even when they answered the questions many just badgered them because it was not the answer they wanted to hear.

I was told in some cases the 3rd degree they got here made the shoes a bit easier. However, that does not justify some of the rude behavior they received. People need to understand who the suspects are in this case and not go after the witnesses.

Sure everyone would like all the answers, but even eye witnesses do not remember everything. Do not ever forget, they are teens.

Well, if they tell a lie involving somebody's disappearance and likely death, I would imagine many of them are.  Called obstruction of justice and in this country it is a crime.

http://www.postherald.com/nw062405.shtml

http://www.godesoto.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=7576&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

http://**/articles/2005/06/24/news/news1.txt

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050613/NEWS01/506130329/1002

Well let's recount the "evidence" against the 2 security guards.

1. Natalee is missing - therefore you are accused of kidnapping and murder

2. The party boys said she was approached by a black security guard - you guys are black security guards - you're under arrest.

All I can say is that I'm thankfull I don't live in Aruba, or the Netherlands...

Well puggywug, violated Americans, having returned home, don't have to abide by Dutch law. They can freely talk, as they should to put the guilty away. As long as the Law enforcement/prosecutors/witnesses/attorneys and anyone else on Aruba apparently doesn't talk, the case will go on.

Again GO ANNA!  And you hit it bullseye:"I think she tried to be friendly and this is where it got her"!  She messed up!

So you are telling me that his repeated lying regarding the disappearence of a missing girl is not evidence against him?  Maybe he is innocent, but his lying has killed any credibility he has and has logically made him the prime suspect in the case.

Yeah, Anna, I think you've got it.
I was confused because the accounts seemed to conflict, but when you think about it, they don't.
The one article said Bryan Reynolds from MBHS broke up a fight at Carlos'nCharlies' the SECOND night they were there. That was Friday night May 27. Then someone said he'd been hanging around the group for a couple of days. He was probably at CnCs and the Holiday Inn Saturday night, and we know he was there Sunday night at HI with his dad which is when Natalee introduced herself.
So what everyone said is true, we've just been assuming Nat introduced herself the first time she saw him. And obviously from the accounts, that's not true.
Also, Joran got into a shoving match with the MBHS kids Sat night/Sun Morning -- so that means he got into it TWICE with them.
Now I"m starting to wonder if maybe all this factored in with Natalee somehow. Something to prove to the MB guys? Ego and temper out of control?

Cancun, the motives are a mother's love for her daughter!  I bolded the answer so there is no doubt about the answer.  I am a mother of a 21 year old, and I would do the same.  When I mentioned to my daughter that I admired Beth H. Twitty for her strength in the face of incredible pain, my daughter said "Mom, you would do the same!"

 so why're you posting on this board Whitney?

whitney:...for now other reason that I came onto, now, saw two of my favs on this board, an Arubagirl...and a writenow type of person...OK? (don't quote me though...IMHO)...

Look, it's so very difficult to do HTML on the fly as well as as...you know the story....and you have to spell wrods...LOL...

kisses and hugs, whitney[b/]

ANNA,
Check your PM  :)

You make a perfect case of Joran being innocent, he is 17, and he has not confessed during interrogation...could it be that is telling the truth, for get the stories changing I can see either a panic since the next day the girl dissapeared, you can see why as story can seem like he is lying but it may have been twisted by police misinfomation and sloppy reporting of MSM?

You're entitled to your opinion, CM. But in my own estimation, that's not the case. In fact, were they to have a script, we wouldn't have found any inconsistencies amongst their statements.

Because he is just like every other cynical conspiracy theorist on this board, they want to believe the worst and most ridiculous things possible.

I'm saying that there is NO evidence in this case. The Aruban police should be looking for evidence, and not arresting someone's father to try to force a confession out of someone...

I definately see what you're saying.  What I am saying is that maybe there are Americans allegedly violated by him who have contacted authorities and the prosecutors building the case against Joran are asking them to keep it under wraps until trial when they can testify against him to establish a pattern of behavior **IF THAT IS THE CASE - I'm not saying it is, this is totally hypothetical**  :)

Is anyone seeing the quote from the news article that I have posted twice? Some keep saying the MB students weren't asked not to speak, well according to them, they were.
Reynolds didn't elaborate, and Barron said people who went on the trip aren't publicly discussing details of what happened in Aruba at the request of Holloway's family, which fears the publicity could hamper the investigation.

Coming back to this, can we ask what your motivations are?

Yea...but...if 5 people tell five different lies and a young girl's life is at stake - they should be in jail.

No. Arlee just explained this about an hour ago (maybe more -- I've lost all concept of time). She said one paper interviewed a sophomore who didn't go on the trip and said he couldn't answer questions because he didn't go on the trip. that came out in the paper as he refused to talk because the family didn't want him to. the kids then said, "oh, they don't want us to talk? OK." and they didn't talk. But Dash's mom said the family NEVER ASKED THIS.

That's what I thought...  Beats me why people draw conclusions based on nothing.  zip...nadda...just their own imagination and cuz it makes them feel special to talk about something "different".  Takes all kinds...