Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Natalee Discussions (2005 ARCHIVE) => Natalee Breaking News Archive => Topic started by: RB on June 26, 2005, 06:29:27 PM



Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 06:29:27 PM
While we're a reasonable bunch, we do have some expectations for the etiquette of our posters and want you to know what will keep you in the Monkey cage, or excommunicate you to the wild jungles of the Internet to swing on a few vines to relax yourself. Needless to say, we'd like to cage you here rather than set you "free." Follow the guidelines below (there's only 3 - humor us) and you'll spend many a happy day picking flies off each other, chattering, and bouncing off the walls.

Monkeys will avoid feeding the trolls. True trolls are a rare breed; and the owners, admins and moderators know what and who they are and we have super-dooper bug spray to get rid of them. 'Nuff said.

Monkeys will use proper social etiquette in expressing their opinions. There are always more than 1 side and opinion to every story; some posts you will like and agree with, and others you won't. While lively debate is appreciated, moderators and forum admins reserve the right to admonish and/or eject, without notice, those parties who debate using insults, engage in name-calling, or otherwise imflammatory posts. Act like you're at a public place using the manners your mother taught you and you'll be just fine. If you don't have manners, don't bother posting as it just wastes our time mashing the "banned" button. We've got other things to do.

Monkeys recognize that the forum threads and some functionality may be temporarily unavailable at times. During high peak periods, forum operators may disable some features such as avatars, sig lines and the like. We'll restore it when the hooplah dies down. Likewise, we reserve the right to edit, delete or move posts or threads in any manner that we choose. Hey, when it's your house, you can move the furniture.....


enjoy!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 26, 2005, 06:55:20 PM
I saw this asked on another thread...Can Paulus VD Sloot now File Suit againt the Prosecuter for unlawful arrest and imprisonment? In that she(Prosecuter) was using him to out pressure on his(Joran) son ? That would NEVER happen in the good ole USA...Thank God...


GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sleeks on June 26, 2005, 06:55:26 PM
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 06:55:27 PM
iquitos can you help me on this article it`s the only one who`s up to date wich I 'Geen bewijs voor moord op meisje'
Door Maaike Ruepert

Rechter-in-opleiding Paul van der S., die sinds donderdag achter Arubaanse tralies zit, kan zich niet aan de indruk ontrekken dat hij gevangen zit om zijn zoon Joran van der S. onder druk te zetten.

Gisteravond moest rechter-commissaris R. Smid een beslissing nemen of het Openbaar Ministerie (OM) Paul van der S. langer mag vasthouden in verband met zijn mogelijke betrokkenheid bij de vermissing van de Amerikaanse Natalee Holloway. Het OM wil Van der S. langer aan de tand voelen, omdat hij verschillende verklaringen zou hebben afgelegd over wat hij weet wat er is gebeurd in de nacht dat Holloway verdween, vier weken geleden.

,,Het is vreselijk voor hem'', zegt zij advocaat A. Swaen. ,,De man zit al vijftien jaar op Aruba. Ik ken hem professioneel als jurist. Hij zou aan het einde van dit jaar zijn opleiding tot rechter afronden. Zijn leven hangt hier vanaf.'' Van der S. senior wordt net als zijn zoon verdacht van medeplichtigheid aan moord, doodslag of wederrechtelijke vrijheidsberoving met de dood tot gevolg.

De rechter-commissaris heeft tot vandaag de tijd om een beslissing te nemen over verlenging van de detentie van Joran van der S. en de Surinaamse broers Deepak en Satish K. Hoewel A. de Bie, advocaat van Joran van der S. denkt dat zijn cliënt langer vast moet blijven, is er volgens hem geen enkel bewijs. ,,Het OM is alleen nog maar met suggesties en vermoedens gekomen. Er komt een moment dat het niet meer redelijk is om hem langer vast te houden. Het feit dat iemand jokt of ooit een keer gelogen heeft, betekent niet dat hij het heeft gedaan.''

Ook R. Oomen, advocaat van Deepak K., begrijpt niet waarom zijn cliënt zolang wordt vastgehouden. ,,Ik heb geen enkele aanwijzing dat er een misdrijf is gepleegd'', zegt Oomen. Deepak verleent volgens zijn advocaat alle medewerking aan het onderzoek. ,,Hij heeft alles verklaard wat hij kan verklaren. De grenzen zijn genaderd van wat in een rechtstaat acceptabel is.''

Volgens D. Kock, raadsman van Deepaks broer Satish, kan iedereen bij deze zaak worden betrokken. ,,Je voelt dat men niet weet wat er is gebeurd. We weten allemaal niet meer dan dat het meisje wordt vermist.''

De rechter-commissaris heeft gisteren wel Steve C. vrijgelaten. Deze 26-jarige dj van een partyboot, kende Joran van der S. en Satish K. niet eens. Alleen Deepak K. had hij wel eens ontmoet in het internetcafé waar Deepak werkte.

Volgens Deepak en Satish hebben zij Joran van der S. met Holloway op het strand naast het Marriott Hotel achtergelaten in de nacht de Amerikaanse verdween. Zij gingen toen naar huis. Later belde Van der S. naar Deepak met de mededeling dat hij alleen naar huis liep. Zijn huis ligt kilometers verwijderd van het bewuste strand. Later stuurde Van der S. nog een sms'je naar Deepak met de tekst: Ik ben thuis.




can find.... it`s is from the AD newspaper


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 06:55:29 PM
Quote from: "LemonDrop"
Quote from: "wwizard"
again w/ respect, why is NH above reproach??


In my opinion, because she didn't kill herself?


No one is beyond reproach, the thing is you need some evidence to reproach someone.  And when people continually without any evidence make outrageous claims regarding Natalees behavior it is very offensive to her frriends and to a lot of us as well.  The same is true of Joran or anyone else in this case as well.  For instance, a lot of the attacks on his mother were completely ridiculous and irrelevant.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 06:55:32 PM
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Red on June 26, 2005, 06:55:38 PM
Quote
--- wrote:
I cant deal with this anymore. I left for a few days, and was asked to come back... I did, now I wish I hadn't. I can't stand people's ignorance or maliciousness anymore, so congrats to all of you who want me gone... you win!

To all of you who actually care about Natalee, thank you. Please continue to pray for her safe return... Thank you again for all that you've done.

The truth will come out (I know more than you know, as do many others... Joran is guilty. This doesn't interest me though; I could care less what is done with him... I just wish he'd say where Natalee is.)

Thank you again to all of you who are supportive! Hopefully, you will keep fighting and be stronger than I can.

---  


I am going to reserve comment until later that one of the few people who were willing to talk about events just got ran off. Some one who many of us are thankful made an effort to give info when she did not have to.

Many of you have bitched and moaned that there were no MB's making comments or not going on shows. Its not that there were not MB teens doing so ... its they were not saying what you wanted to hear or refused to listen to.

How many times do people have to be told ... these are teenagers ... not adults and the same rules do not apply!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dragonfly on June 26, 2005, 06:55:59 PM
It's always fun to see how long it takes for everyone to get over to a new thread...lol


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KKM on June 26, 2005, 06:55:59 PM
Please update me, as I only stay here and rarely venture out to the main page.

Who are all those people posting comments?  And how did they end up there and not here (I am certainly not complaining).

Also, the following post was under the latest headline on the SM home page.  What's this all about - junk???

ET Says:

June 26th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
It’s cruel hard to say that, but it was horrible to see when she run to swim @ Malmok, and Joran tried to stop her (unsuccessfully), and she drowned…

(that's the end of the post)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 06:56:37 PM
Ann Rule and others thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy. They can fool ya!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 06:56:38 PM
Quote from: "bendex"

Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 216
Location: Dutch guy living on the argentinian pampas
 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
But if there was a struggle want would asume that Joran and friends had some scars on their faces ?


There are rumors joran did have some scratches or marks on his face that Monday.

Disclaimer: not stating this as fact, just rumor read on blog, Dan's I think


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 06:56:43 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I saw this asked on another thread...Can Paulus VD Sloot now File Suit againt the Prosecuter for unlawful arrest and imprisonment? In that she(Prosecuter) was using him to out pressure on his(Joran) son ? That would NEVER happen in the good ole USA...Thank God...


GuyWdog


I doubt it. And what about the security guards that were arrested and Croes? :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: kuaitzu on June 26, 2005, 06:56:58 PM
I feel the reason JVDS told his Mom "it's not so bad here in the prison" is becaue she was so devastated. No matter what..a Mother is a Mother. The jails have no beds..only toilets and concrete floors. He and his Mom appear close..and she was so distraught.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Loren on June 26, 2005, 06:57:41 PM
I just hope the Texas search team finds her in what ever condition and gives her parents some peace to go home. I am just not sure that justice will be done in this little banana republic justic system of Aruba's. I hope I'm totally and utterly wrong.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LilOrphan on June 26, 2005, 06:57:43 PM
Quote from: "KKM"
Please update me, as I only stay here and rarely venture out to the main page.

Who are all those people posting comments?  And how did they end up there and not here (I am certainly not complaining).

Also, the following post was under the latest headline on the SM home page.  What's this all about - junk???

ET Says:

June 26th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
It’s cruel hard to say that, but it was horrible to see when she run to swim @ Malmok, and Joran tried to stop her (unsuccessfully), and she drowned…

(that's the end of the post)



Junk.  If she ran to swim and he tried to stop her, that's all he would have had to say from day one. Case closed.  There's more to it -- not saying he deliberately harmed her, but that he did something that involves him to the point of needing to conspire an alibi with friends  and then change it a few times.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sleeks on June 26, 2005, 06:58:00 PM
Quote from: "Red"
Quote
--- wrote:
I cant deal with this anymore. I left for a few days, and was asked to come back... I did, now I wish I hadn't. I can't stand people's ignorance or maliciousness anymore, so congrats to all of you who want me gone... you win!

To all of you who actually care about Natalee, thank you. Please continue to pray for her safe return... Thank you again for all that you've done.

The truth will come out (I know more than you know, as do many others... Joran is guilty. This doesn't interest me though; I could care less what is done with him... I just wish he'd say where Natalee is.)

Thank you again to all of you who are supportive! Hopefully, you will keep fighting and be stronger than I can.

---  


I am going to reserve comment until later that one of the few people who were willing to talk about events just got ran off. Some one who many of us are thankful made an effort to give info when she did not have to.

Many of you have bitched and moaned that there were no MB's making comments or not going on shows. Its not that there were not MB teens doing so ... its they were not saying what you wanted to hear or refused to listen to.

How many times do people have to be told ... these are teenagers ... not adults and the same rules do not apply!



TEENAGERS WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH SOMETHING VERY TRAMATIC


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 06:58:02 PM
Quote from: "Sleeks"
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 06:58:47 PM
Hi Hannie ,

I cna try translating it if iquitos is not doing it right now


Quote from: "HannieC"
iquitos can you help me on this article it`s the only one who`s up to date wich I 'Geen bewijs voor moord op meisje'
Door Maaike Ruepert

Rechter-in-opleiding Paul van der S., die sinds donderdag achter Arubaanse tralies zit, kan zich niet aan de indruk ontrekken dat hij gevangen zit om zijn zoon Joran van der S. onder druk te zetten.

Gisteravond moest rechter-commissaris R. Smid een beslissing nemen of het Openbaar Ministerie (OM) Paul van der S. langer mag vasthouden in verband met zijn mogelijke betrokkenheid bij de vermissing van de Amerikaanse Natalee Holloway. Het OM wil Van der S. langer aan de tand voelen, omdat hij verschillende verklaringen zou hebben afgelegd over wat hij weet wat er is gebeurd in de nacht dat Holloway verdween, vier weken geleden.

,,Het is vreselijk voor hem'', zegt zij advocaat A. Swaen. ,,De man zit al vijftien jaar op Aruba. Ik ken hem professioneel als jurist. Hij zou aan het einde van dit jaar zijn opleiding tot rechter afronden. Zijn leven hangt hier vanaf.'' Van der S. senior wordt net als zijn zoon verdacht van medeplichtigheid aan moord, doodslag of wederrechtelijke vrijheidsberoving met de dood tot gevolg.

De rechter-commissaris heeft tot vandaag de tijd om een beslissing te nemen over verlenging van de detentie van Joran van der S. en de Surinaamse broers Deepak en Satish K. Hoewel A. de Bie, advocaat van Joran van der S. denkt dat zijn cliënt langer vast moet blijven, is er volgens hem geen enkel bewijs. ,,Het OM is alleen nog maar met suggesties en vermoedens gekomen. Er komt een moment dat het niet meer redelijk is om hem langer vast te houden. Het feit dat iemand jokt of ooit een keer gelogen heeft, betekent niet dat hij het heeft gedaan.''

Ook R. Oomen, advocaat van Deepak K., begrijpt niet waarom zijn cliënt zolang wordt vastgehouden. ,,Ik heb geen enkele aanwijzing dat er een misdrijf is gepleegd'', zegt Oomen. Deepak verleent volgens zijn advocaat alle medewerking aan het onderzoek. ,,Hij heeft alles verklaard wat hij kan verklaren. De grenzen zijn genaderd van wat in een rechtstaat acceptabel is.''

Volgens D. Kock, raadsman van Deepaks broer Satish, kan iedereen bij deze zaak worden betrokken. ,,Je voelt dat men niet weet wat er is gebeurd. We weten allemaal niet meer dan dat het meisje wordt vermist.''

De rechter-commissaris heeft gisteren wel Steve C. vrijgelaten. Deze 26-jarige dj van een partyboot, kende Joran van der S. en Satish K. niet eens. Alleen Deepak K. had hij wel eens ontmoet in het internetcafé waar Deepak werkte.

Volgens Deepak en Satish hebben zij Joran van der S. met Holloway op het strand naast het Marriott Hotel achtergelaten in de nacht de Amerikaanse verdween. Zij gingen toen naar huis. Later belde Van der S. naar Deepak met de mededeling dat hij alleen naar huis liep. Zijn huis ligt kilometers verwijderd van het bewuste strand. Later stuurde Van der S. nog een sms'je naar Deepak met de tekst: Ik ben thuis.




can find.... it`s is from the AD newspaper


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 06:59:35 PM
Some perspective on what we know about the school group's interaction with Joran:

Natalee was seen, on different occasions:

engaging in casual chit chat with him in a casino

dancing with him

The young lady who was on the trip reports seeing her walking with someone tall with dark hair (it was dark)

A cousin of Natalee's is said to have had a "scuffle" with Joran. We don't know if "scuffle" in this case refers to raised voices, physical contact, name-calling or what. We don't know what the scuffle was about. Natalee was seen dancing with Joran after this had occurred.

Have I left anything out?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sleeks on June 26, 2005, 06:59:42 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.


MY OPINION IS NOT JUST BASED ON HIS UNDERAGE DRINKING BY ANY MEANS  It is more based on character than anything else.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Marie on June 26, 2005, 07:00:17 PM
Of course, lots of us drank when we were underage. Especially in other countries where drinking age is 18. When I went to Mexico, they had 15-16 year olds in the bars. Can ya believe that?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 07:00:43 PM
Hey believe it or not I went to daytona beach junior and senior year and never took a drink. Tastes like crap and I still don't drink that stuff. Thankfully my 23 year old says the same thing. Very proud of her.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dragonfly on June 26, 2005, 07:00:47 PM
Quote from: "Red"
Quote
--- wrote:
I cant deal with this anymore. I left for a few days, and was asked to come back... I did, now I wish I hadn't. I can't stand people's ignorance or maliciousness anymore, so congrats to all of you who want me gone... you win!

To all of you who actually care about Natalee, thank you. Please continue to pray for her safe return... Thank you again for all that you've done.

The truth will come out (I know more than you know, as do many others... Joran is guilty. This doesn't interest me though; I could care less what is done with him... I just wish he'd say where Natalee is.)

Thank you again to all of you who are supportive! Hopefully, you will keep fighting and be stronger than I can.

---  


I am going to reserve comment until later that one of the few people who were willing to talk about events just got ran off. Some one who many of us are thankful made an effort to give info when she did not have to.

Many of you have bitched and moaned that there were no MB's making comments or not going on shows. Its not that there were not MB teens doing so ... its they were not saying what you wanted to hear or refused to listen to.

How many times do people have to be told ... these are teenagers ... not adults and the same rules do not apply!


Absolutely.  And at that age you are much more likely to wear your feelings on your shoulders.  We tried so hard for so long to change posting style when Dash was with us, but it doesn't seem to work anymore.  I feel very badly for her.  They have been put on the defense so many times already and feel so very protective of their lost friend.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:01:01 PM
Thanks bendex but they seems to bee a little behind with the news.....that explains also why i`m glued to sm.. :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 07:02:28 PM
By the way, has anyone heard of a reaction from the family to the latest new of the two releases.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tiptoes on June 26, 2005, 07:02:30 PM
Quote
Dash,

{{edit: it's impossible to apologize for others behavior - please, people have a right to their opinions. thank you. }}. I agree with you. The ignorance or maliciousness has no place ANYWHERE!! I, for one, will continue to pray for Natalee's safe return and also know Joran has knowledge of her whereabouts. Be strong and my prayers are with you. You have been through too much!

Quote:
I cant deal with this anymore. I left for a few days, and was asked to come back... I did, now I wish I hadn't. I can't stand people's ignorance or maliciousness anymore, so congrats to all of you who want me gone... you win!

To all of you who actually care about Natalee, thank you. Please continue to pray for her safe return... Thank you again for all that you've done.


Again with respect, why is NH above reproach?

The truth will come out (I know more than you know, as do many others... Joran is guilty. This doesn't interest me though; I could care less what is done with him... I just wish he'd say where Natalee is.)

Thank you again to all of you who are supportive! Hopefully, you will keep fighting and be stronger than I can.

---
 


again w/ respect, why is NH above reproach??

I fully appreicate opinions, but you know the old adage, opinions are like as#holes, everyone has one and most are full of shi#.  You don't know Natalee, you were not there so your speculations have proven to unfounded and hurtful.  Someone has lost a dear friend under horrible circumstances and if it were your child, sister, friend, you would want the same respect.  


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 07:02:33 PM
Based on the fact alone that Joran changed his story makes me question him and how about the fact that he was the last one to be seen with Natalee.  He's now proved (at least to me) that he doesn't tell the truth.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:02:49 PM
Editorial Note:

If the number of users continues to grow this evening avatars, and sig lines will be disabled, if it continues to be slow, pm's will be disabled for the evening.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 07:02:52 PM
Quote from: "LilOrphan"
Quote from: "KKM"
Please update me, as I only stay here and rarely venture out to the main page.

Who are all those people posting comments?  And how did they end up there and not here (I am certainly not complaining).

Also, the following post was under the latest headline on the SM home page.  What's this all about - junk???

ET Says:

June 26th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
It’s cruel hard to say that, but it was horrible to see when she run to swim @ Malmok, and Joran tried to stop her (unsuccessfully), and she drowned…

(that's the end of the post)



Junk.  If she ran to swim and he tried to stop her, that's all he would have had to say from day one. Case closed.  There's more to it -- not saying he deliberately harmed her, but that he did something that involves him to the point of needing to conspire an alibi with friends  and then change it a few times.


I've read the drowning rumors before. But Fox had this boat captain on and he said that the surf would bring a dead body back on shore. :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 07:03:15 PM
Quote from: "Marie"
Of course, lots of us drank when we were underage. Especially in other countries where drinking age is 18. When I went to Mexico, they had 15-16 year olds in the bars. Can ya believe that?



Working is the sin of the drinking class - oscar wilde -


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:03:20 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.


The Calvary here's!  at any rate, on the other thread I admitted to some underage drinking because to lie would have resulted in my being struck by lightning. About Natalee meeting and spending time with joran that night. I can't and won't speak for Natalee, but I know a lot of us girls who have met guys in various situations, and decided in the first few minutes if he was someone to spend time with.   And girls know a guy will act one way if he thinks he has a shot at getting something from a girl, versus anyone else he thinks may be standing in his way.Happens all the time.
It is called a One-Night Stand which can involve anything from sleeping, passing out or well, you know what I mean.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: puggywug on June 26, 2005, 07:03:27 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.

I try not to be a hypocrite.  I drank before I was 21.  Alot of teenagers do.  I, for one, would never vilify someone for underage drinking or gambling.

I do think, however, we should consider the fact that Joran's parents did not seem to enforce a lot of rules on him.  He was out partying on a school night right before final exams.  It has been said that he gambled with his father.  I just find it to be a telling thing about him and his family dynamics that he was allowed to so openly break rules and laws - especially considering his father's line of work.  Yes, I drank underage, but my friends and I were more secretive about it, and my parents would have NEVER condoned it.  I got grounded for it, as a matter of fact.  :oops:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:03:49 PM
Quote from: "DT"
By the way, has anyone heard of a reaction from the family to the latest new of the two releases.


Tonight at 10 on Geraldo.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:05:07 PM
I still don`t understand what the drinking is about, maybe it`s b/c i`m dutch and used to a more liberal way of living, but i was also young and a girl and i can absolutly understand what youths are doing if they are from home at a beatiful place with a lot of friends and new people to meet!

I think that the 'responsable drinking ' isn`t the issue here, those kids were having fun drinking or not, they are no robots either. I think that a lot of people are forgetting that they were young also.... :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Marie on June 26, 2005, 07:05:13 PM
Aruba is a resort, they probably aren't as strict there as here in the US


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:05:36 PM
Quote from: "Loren"
I just hope the Texas search team finds her in what ever condition and gives her parents some peace to go home. I am just not sure that justice will be done in this little banana republic justic system of Aruba's. I hope I'm totally and utterly wrong.


I think that is kind of mean calling Aruba a banana republic. They just have a big time different way of doing things than here in the US. Blame the people who lied, joran and the bros kalpoe. Perhaps if they did nothing with Natalee, the "real" perps could have been caught.

That is if they aren't already at KIA


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 07:05:46 PM
Quote from: "blfit"
Based on the fact alone that Joran changed his story makes me question him and how about the fact that he was the last one to be seen with Natalee.  He's now proved (at least to me) that he doesn't tell the truth.


That seems to be all the evidence a lot of people need to convict him of murder. I think you have to get inside Joran's head to think why he might have lied. Maybe he heard that "something bad happened" to Natalee and he didn't want to get blamed for it. Maybe he did something with Natalee (sexual?) that he feels guilty about.  :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Britney on June 26, 2005, 07:05:59 PM
Quote from: "wantsanswers"
Ann Rule and others thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy. They can fool ya!


So true! Maybe a sociopath?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:06:11 PM
If Jug is not upset or seems to understand the release of PVDS and SC then the family knows far more than they are saying in my book.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tiptoes on June 26, 2005, 07:06:37 PM
WWIZARD WROTE:

[/quote]again w/ respect, why is NH above reproach??

Quote



I fully appreicate opinions, but you know the old adage, opinions are like as#holes, everyone has one and most are full of shi#. You don't know Natalee, you were not there so your speculations have proven to unfounded and hurtful. Someone has lost a dear friend under horrible circumstances and if it were your child, sister, friend, you would want the same respect.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 07:07:09 PM
Quote from: "Marie"
Aruba is a resort, they probably aren't as strict there as here in the US


Not only that but it seems like when drinking is allowed at a younger age people don't focus on it as much.  It isn't as big of a deal as it is here.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: puggywug on June 26, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: "Red"
Quote
--- wrote:
I cant deal with this anymore. I left for a few days, and was asked to come back... I did, now I wish I hadn't. I can't stand people's ignorance or maliciousness anymore, so congrats to all of you who want me gone... you win!

To all of you who actually care about Natalee, thank you. Please continue to pray for her safe return... Thank you again for all that you've done.

The truth will come out (I know more than you know, as do many others... Joran is guilty. This doesn't interest me though; I could care less what is done with him... I just wish he'd say where Natalee is.)

Thank you again to all of you who are supportive! Hopefully, you will keep fighting and be stronger than I can.

---  


I am going to reserve comment until later that one of the few people who were willing to talk about events just got ran off. Some one who many of us are thankful made an effort to give info when she did not have to.

Many of you have bitched and moaned that there were no MB's making comments or not going on shows. Its not that there were not MB teens doing so ... its they were not saying what you wanted to hear or refused to listen to.

How many times do people have to be told ... these are teenagers ... not adults and the same rules do not apply!

I am sad to see Dash go, and I am desperately praying for Natalee's safe return.  I am looking forward to your later comments, Red.  Thanks again for all your dedication.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 07:07:19 PM
Quote from: "kuaitzu"
I feel the reason JVDS told his Mom "it's not so bad here in the prison" is becaue she was so devastated. No matter what..a Mother is a Mother. The jails have no beds..only toilets and concrete floors. He and his Mom appear close..and she was so distraught.


My response to that would be, IF "Joran and his Mom appear close.. ", why was she so clueless about his "lifestyle"???


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 07:08:22 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.
<<

She did NOT invite him to C&C.  On the contrary he told her that no one went there on Sunday.  She went there with other friends and who shows up but Joren.  She walked out with him??  Maybe.  Maybe not.  How would you not walk with somebody his size following you?  Seconds before she got into that car, she had told her friend she was going back to HI with the other students and no one has seen her since.  Except Joren, that is.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kipster on June 26, 2005, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
If Jug is not upset or seems to understand the release of PVDS and SC then the family knows far more than they are saying in my book.


Definitely, though the FOX reporter just called it a letdown for the family, so I'm guessing they're not going to be very happy but hoping for the opposite.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LilOrphan on June 26, 2005, 07:08:50 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote


I've read the drowning rumors before. But Fox had this boat captain on and he said that the surf would bring a dead body back on shore. :roll:


Fox or no Fox, body or no body, if it was an accidental drowning and the person who posted that stated he "watched" then there would be a witness and no cause for Joran to concoct an alibi.  I'm harping on that to some degree because the three friends deliberate creation of a set scenario is indicative of one or more guilty minds.  Not saying it's absolute, just a strong sign.

Now did she drown and there was no mystery posting witness? That I don't know.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Marie on June 26, 2005, 07:09:04 PM
Joran was doing well in school, was almost 18, and probably turned the other cheek. The lifestyles of the people on the island are much different than here.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 26, 2005, 07:09:17 PM
It makes me so sad Dash, of all people, has been run off this forum.  These are kids!!!  They've been through and are still going through a horrible event. While I support all discussions, and welcome all kinds of personalities, I think we've just acted like complete asses. Are the theories here so damn important that we can't stop and show respect while these kids are here? Or at least while they are posting in our presence?

Dash came here and found love and support from people she didn't know.. we shared her wish to find truth.

To all those who bashed the kids for staying quiet, you should be ashamed of yourselves.  This is a prime example of why they are staying quiet.

The egos and self possessed BS has just reached an all time high.  

I hate injustice.  I hated what happened yesterday to another poster for having the wrong "tone".  By those standards there are a slew of posters who should be thrown out of here.

I have always taken in kids who travel and need a place to stay and a home cooked meal. I've done so hoping the karma will be returned when my kids are out alone. I guess that kind of hospitality isn't present here today.

Again, those who attacked the kids and their actions while Dash and others were posting here this afternoon, should be ashamed.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: sandy on June 26, 2005, 07:09:25 PM
Quote from: "Britney"
Quote from: "wantsanswers"
Ann Rule and others thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy. They can fool ya!


So true! Maybe a sociopath?


I cannot believe I am bringing this up but the one common thread in sociopath / psychopath's early behaviour is cruelty to animals - there is something for someone who is a real keener to lok into


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dragonfly on June 26, 2005, 07:09:43 PM
Quote from: "Catriana"
Quote from: "kuaitzu"
I feel the reason JVDS told his Mom "it's not so bad here in the prison" is becaue she was so devastated. No matter what..a Mother is a Mother. The jails have no beds..only toilets and concrete floors. He and his Mom appear close..and she was so distraught.


My response to that would be, IF "Joran and his Mom appear close.. ", why was she so clueless about his "lifestyle"???


Because she chose to be.  Because mothers sometimes don't want to believe that their children can do wrong.  Should she have been more involved and more realistic?  Yes.  But sometimes mothers choose to believe the best of their children and are truly shocked when something like this happens.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 07:10:06 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Thanks bendex but they seems to bee a little behind with the news.....that explains also why i`m glued to sm.. :wink:


hey Hannie! :lol:
some of us are on the same page!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 07:12:07 PM
Sleeks wrote:
SO INSPECTOR WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED???


Well right now (because we havn't found a dead body) I think at some point Joran did leave her alone, and she was kidnapped by someone we have not heard about yet. Maybe she's being held in a personal residence right now against her will?

Inspector - You don't believe she is dead because there is no body.  However you believe she is kidnapped with no kidnapper or ransom note.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 07:12:11 PM
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 07:12:52 PM
Is Greta going back to Aruba on Monday? She needs to kick Geraldo out of there again...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: "kuaitzu"
I feel the reason JVDS told his Mom "it's not so bad here in the prison" is becaue she was so devastated. No matter what..a Mother is a Mother. The jails have no beds..only toilets and concrete floors. He and his Mom appear close..and she was so distraught.
<<

I saw beds in the tour given on TV.  Everything is spic and span and brand new.  Much nicer than prisons in this country, America.  There is a sort of desk/table, locker.  He is at the new KIA facility and it is rather nice for a prison.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:13:01 PM
Quote from: "Red"
Quote
--- wrote:
I cant deal with this anymore. I left for a few days, and was asked to come back... I did, now I wish I hadn't. I can't stand people's ignorance or maliciousness anymore, so congrats to all of you who want me gone... you win!

To all of you who actually care about Natalee, thank you. Please continue to pray for her safe return... Thank you again for all that you've done.

The truth will come out (I know more than you know, as do many others... Joran is guilty. This doesn't interest me though; I could care less what is done with him... I just wish he'd say where Natalee is.)

Thank you again to all of you who are supportive! Hopefully, you will keep fighting and be stronger than I can.

---  


I am going to reserve comment until later that one of the few people who were willing to talk about events just got ran off. Some one who many of us are thankful made an effort to give info when she did not have to.

Many of you have bitched and moaned that there were no MB's making comments or not going on shows. Its not that there were not MB teens doing so ... its they were not saying what you wanted to hear or refused to listen to.

How many times do people have to be told ... these are teenagers ... not adults and the same rules do not apply!


Thank you Red, I was trying to figure out how to say it. I second your post, although you da man and don't need my input.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kipster on June 26, 2005, 07:13:38 PM
If they watched her drown, that would have been what they changed their story to. Hell, they should have concocted that one to begin with if they're responsible for harming her. It would have been the easiest to get out of.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 07:14:36 PM
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


thank you


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: puggywug on June 26, 2005, 07:15:15 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.

la_cavaličre wrote:
Joran couldn't have been THAT much of a jerk that Sunday. Natalee apparently took a liking to him, and everyone says she had great judgment. If she had thought he was an arrogant liar, I doubt she would have spent any time with him.

Hi, la_cav  :D .  Maybe you missed my previous response because it was on page 50 of the last thread.  I wrote:

We really don't know if Natalee "took a liking to him" or not. How would we know that? For all we know, he saw her and her group leaving the bar and walked out to try to catch her and spend more time with her. We don't know that she spoke to him other than introducing herself earlier that day. And just because you introduce yourself to someone doesn't mean you took a liking to them. It is being polite. When my husband and I were in Vegas, if we were at a table gambling for a while with the same people, we would introduce ourselves or strike up small talk. That didn't mean we wanted to date the people.

I'd also like to add that I don't recall anyone saying she invited him to CnC's or was dancing with him at the bar.  One more thing.  Last night a woman told of her experience when she was unknowingly drugged with a "date rape" drug.  He husband told her that she was walking and talking coherently, yet she had no memory of it.  ***PERHAPS Natalee was drugged when she left the bar with the group of MBers and then Joran asked her if he could ride with her back to HI.  IN THIS THEORETICAL SCENARIO, she would have been willing to get in the car with him, but she would not have been cognizant of her actions.  JUST A THOUGHT  :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:15:21 PM
blfit wrote:

Quote
Not only that but it seems like when drinking is allowed at a younger age people don't focus on it as much. It isn't as big of a deal as it is here.



I think you are absolutly right on that one blfit, maybe that`s why a lot of american kids go on a holiday or springbreak in another country or island
Just to do things whitout being illegal in america isn`t there illegal, and enjoy.... nothing wrong with that I think.. but hey I`m dutch and not even on drugs or alcohol and I know a lot of people aren`t here junkies or alcoholics in spite we are liberal.... so what can I say, it`s just a mythe just like a lot of people are thinking that we are whear wooden shoes and we`re sufficating on tulips or something... :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 07:17:52 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.
<<

I have not seen anyone villanizing Joren just because he was drinking underage but when you add in gambling the night away in casinos when he has school the next day, photos of him passed out and doing all that other stuff on his webpages, the teasing him about roofies and other drugs, lying, trying to start fights, being sent to anger management for kicking his brothers, pounding his chest at adult women and on and one, do you not see anything wrong, no pattern of any sort?  Just a fine fella by your standards?

I wonder how he could stay awake for class for at that age, my kids required extra sleep, not less.  Never knew a teenager who didn't come to think of it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 07:18:10 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.


I don't think the point was that he was drinking 2 months before his legal age!  It has been very obvious to most that he was doing this for quite some time.  He could not have been that unknown on the island.  People had to know he was still in HS.  From what we have seen on web pictures his behavior has been the same for a long time.  I don't buy the excuse he was just using a fake ID so we didn't know how old he was.

Drinking establishments and casinos have gone on the record saying they never let anyone in under age.  They did look the other way in this case.  

Am I a hypocrite?  No!  I actually did not drink until legal age, however, I don't see what that has to do with anything.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 07:18:14 PM
:arrow: wwizard...by serpentine are you referring to the 3 or something bigger?  And, yes, trying to follow the $$$.  thanx


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 07:18:30 PM
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


To be honest, I do not know if I would advise someone so closely connected with the victim to venture beyond websites that deal exclusively with prayers and hopes that Natalee can be returned to her family, a prayer and hope that I share.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 07:18:51 PM
It is understandable the the Alabama kids are so emotional, yet at same time I think that everyone on here should be able to have a voice...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 07:18:56 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.


You have no proof she invited him to CnCs. Nor do you have any proof that SHE walked with HIM. HE could have walked out with HER after slipping her a roofie.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 07:19:08 PM
Quote from: "arrabba"
Sleeks wrote:
SO INSPECTOR WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED???


Well right now (because we havn't found a dead body) I think at some point Joran did leave her alone, and she was kidnapped by someone we have not heard about yet. Maybe she's being held in a personal residence right now against her will?

Inspector - You don't believe she is dead because there is no body.  However you believe she is kidnapped with no kidnapper or ransom note.


She was either kidnapped or ran away by herself. I don't think she ran away. It may not have been the kidnappers plan to ask for ransom, but to sell her into the sex slave trade. Remember what happened to Amy Bradley...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:19:10 PM
friends of monkeys wrote:

Quote
hey Hannie!  
some of us are on the same page!!


 :lol:  :lol: ... still get a little of a headache again tho..... :wink:




Hi coco :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Microcephalic on June 26, 2005, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.
<<

She did NOT invite him to C&C.  On the contrary he told her that no one went there on Sunday.  She went there with other friends and who shows up but Joren.  She walked out with him??  Maybe.  Maybe not.  How would you not walk with somebody his size following you?  Seconds before she got into that car, she had told her friend she was going back to HI with the other students and no one has seen her since.  Except Joren, that is.


Not true.  her friends stated in an interview that she did ask him to go.  He was reluctant for the reason you stated and others.  According to other students, she did not say she was going back to HI with other group of students.  They "assumed" she was.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 07:20:07 PM
Hi guys

Made the pictures, but got really really nauseous for some reason, so was only able to take the Lighthouse-Hotel-Oranjestad area.

I'm so so sorry.

And then I had my goddaugther's ballet recital.

HannieC, did you get any 'beschuit met muisjes'? Do you know the name of the new princess?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
It is understandable the the Alabama kids are so emotional, yet at same time I think that everyone on here should be able to have a voice...


I agree with having a voice but I think some things have been said with an edge to them...and it's not necessary.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 07:20:21 PM
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
:arrow: wwizard...by serpentine are you referring to the 3 or something bigger?  And, yes, trying to follow the $$$.  thanx


just an priciple I've had for years :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: puggywug on June 26, 2005, 07:21:15 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


To be honest, I do not know if I would advise someone so closely connected with the victim to venture beyond websites that deal exclusively with prayers and hopes that Natalee can be returned to her family, a prayer and hope that I share.

I think Dash had good intentions of answering our questions.  I imagine she also wanted to "get the truth out" about Natalee and the type of person she knew Natalee to be.  I am sure she didn't realize people would be so callous on this forum.  I am sad to see her go.  :cry:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 07:21:33 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
It is understandable the the Alabama kids are so emotional, yet at same time I think that everyone on here should be able to have a voice...


thank you


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 07:21:49 PM
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


Just because this forum is debating a crime doesn't mean we can post whatever we want.  

If I were to make a post saying that I thought Natalee died while having sex with 10 men and doing every drug known to man without any evidence whatsoever, would that be acceptable?  Obviously it isn't.  We know this because it is a) completely unfoudned b) outrageous given what we know of her character and c) blatantly insulting to a victim.  

I've seen a lot of things like this on the forum, not any as outrageous, but some have come close.  I think this is the sort of stuff that makes Dash angry.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tiptoes on June 26, 2005, 07:22:14 PM
coco wrote:
Quote
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Marie on June 26, 2005, 07:22:17 PM
She'll be back, I'm sure


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 26, 2005, 07:22:51 PM
I suspect that there may be former date-rape victims of Joran van der Sloot lurking on this forum. If you are such a person, then I would advise you to contact the FBI or to send a private message to one of the founders of this forum. As a participant on this forum, I can attest that the founders of this forum are people of integrity and are people whom you can trust. You may wish to work out an agreement with them as to how you want that information to be handled, but I would urge anyone who has been victimized by this man, or who feels that she may have been given a date-rape drug by him, to have their voice heard. I have made a similar announcement at Riehl World.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 26, 2005, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: "Marie"
She'll be back, I'm sure

I don't think so...think she's had enough.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 07:23:20 PM
Quote from: "Kipster"
GuyWDog:
>>With these releases it appears that all this PRESSURE they have put on the main suspect(Joran) has not worked

Unfortunately, I think that's where they are now. Joran's not cracking, sure PVDS will testify, essentially he already has. They desperately need a body.


Paulus probably told Joran...'You can spend another 100 days in here, or another 7000.  The choice is yours.'

If this case reaches a dead end, as a last resort, they should allow the FBI to be alone with Joran, and tell him, 'we've cut a deal with the Aruban authorities to bring you to the US, where you'll be tried and convicted by a jury of your peers in Alabama, and be sentenced to death.  Don't worry, a lethal injection is a quick, painless way to go.  Your Dad can't help you.  The future of the island is more important than you.'

If he doesn't sing by the time he boards the FBI's plane, then, and only then would I believe in his innocence.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 07:23:21 PM
Quote from: "blfit"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
It is understandable the the Alabama kids are so emotional, yet at same time I think that everyone on here should be able to have a voice...


I agree with having a voice but I think some things have been said with an edge to them...and it's not necessary.


Right, what I am saying is that they are defending their friend, but in actualitly, who is here to defend the 3 boys in custody?  I certainly am not saying these 3 are innocent, but at same time, I also want to remain objective.  I am in my 40's and still know some of the crazy things I did when not with my folk's around at the age of 17/18, and if they knew half of it, they would be rolling in their graves to this day


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: icey on June 26, 2005, 07:23:31 PM
Well, SC and papa released for now. At least the new judge seemed satisfied with the cased against joren and the other 2 punks. It would appear the the case against the 3 is strong, if 2 different judges have ordered them held.

Those of you in the US better start calling, writing and otherwise making a nuisance out ourself with your elected officials, the FBI and the White House. Tell them we demand justice in this case, which is in the best interest of Aruba as well.  

Joren is guilty in my book, why?

1)Too many lies for no good reason.
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"  
3) He never brought Natalee back to the HI. His other bullcrap stories of "left her hysterical on the beach" and "left her sleeping on the beach" are either moronic or point to a woman raped, drugged or killed.

Other than that, the rumors of cell calls and text messages that night point to some type of activity.

If this case collapses and the result is "we don't know what happent the Natalee" or that " she might be kidnapped", that should spell doom for Aruba. That is not the story Aruba wants to tell. It will scare people away for sure.

icey


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Microcephalic on June 26, 2005, 07:23:52 PM
Quote from: "Professor"
I suspect that there may be former date-rape victims of Joran van der Sloot lurking on this forum. If you are such a person, then I would advise you to contact the FBI or to send a private message to one of the founders of this forum. As a participant on this forum, I can attest that the founders of this forum are people of integrity and are people whom you can trust. You may wish to work out an agreement with them as to how you want that information to be handled, but I would urge anyone who has been victimized by this man, or who feels that she may have been given a date-rape drug by him, to have their voice heard. I have made a similar announcement at Riehl World.


Where is their any indication of this?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:23:55 PM
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?p=35052#35052

updated timeline from (WriteNow) Thanks.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: CanoneroII on June 26, 2005, 07:24:07 PM
The suspect in this case, Joran Van der Sloot and two other individuals were the last persons seen with Natalee Halloway.  Since that  time different versions by the alledged have been told of where Ms. Holloway was droped off that evening after a trip to the lighthouse along the coastline.  It was also reported that "something bad happened".  What exactly that was and where it occured remains a mystery.  Continuing on with the questioning....personally, Joran has no credibility with me.  The alleged doesn't demonstate character befitting of a responsible, law-abiding person in society socially.  Even more importantly here is suspect alledged of a crime who changes thier description of events during questioning is concealing information either to protect him or herself or other individuals invloved or those aware of the crime committed.  In my estimation what has been told may very well be nothing less than an elaborate smokescreen to protect suspects and others potentially involved in Natalee Holloway's dissapearance.  I trust that a former prosecutor and judge in training should advise his son to answer questions as thoroughly and accurately as possible.  After all, they have had ample time to do so and I would immagine that any good parent in such a position would have casually discussed this on more than at least one occasion.   :!:   IN ADDITION, these subjects should not have been released after their initial questioning. It would have also been of benefit to have had the entire Alabama group remain on the island for questioning prior to their departure back home.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: goon squad on June 26, 2005, 07:24:34 PM
<<I have warned from day one that you have to let the Arubans handle this like they know how.>>


It wasn't pressure from family, U.S. media, U.S. government that caused the police to foul up the initial missing person report filing.

Nor did it cause the police to fail to secure a controlled interview from one of the last people seen with the missing person for six hours before the Holloways reached the Van Der Sloot residence.

And it didn't cause the police to neglect the collection of physical evidence, for nine days, from the last people seen with the missing person, when those people failed to provide a verifiable alibi.

And it didn't cause the police to detain two security guards with no connection to the case.

So I don't see the proof for the presence of Natalee's family, the U.S. media, and the FBI being a malevolent force on the investigation.  Because it appears that Aruban law enforcement's consistent screw-ups - and make no mistake, the handling of PVDS is another massive one - appear to occur independent of who or what is supposedly pressuring it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
:arrow: wwizard...by serpentine are you referring to the 3 or something bigger?  And, yes, trying to follow the $$$.  thanx


just an priciple I've had for years :D


oh.thanx.  for some reason it reminds me of a family of clever pickpockets
that I saw at a bus/reststop in Italy...waiting for the next bus after ours..
and yes, they got me! $300.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 07:25:14 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "blfit"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
It is understandable the the Alabama kids are so emotional, yet at same time I think that everyone on here should be able to have a voice...


I agree with having a voice but I think some things have been said with an edge to them...and it's not necessary.


Right, what I am saying is that they are defending their friend, but in actualitly, who is here to defend the 3 boys in custody?  I certainly am not saying these 3 are innocent, but at same time, I also want to remain objective.  I am in my 40's and still know some of the crazy things I did when not with my folk's around at the age of 17/18, and if they knew half of it, they would be rolling in their graves to this day


Surprisingly a lot of people are defending Joran, I dont agree with a lot of what they say, but it is good to have them here to balance things out.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 07:25:40 PM
heck, I'll admit it, I vacillate between the goog girl/bad girl scenarios with the attending theories.......all I know is what's on this screen


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Loren on June 26, 2005, 07:25:45 PM
professor-
I suspect there are victims of jvds out there and I would love to think that they have already contacted the FBI.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 07:25:45 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.

la_cavaličre wrote:
Joran couldn't have been THAT much of a jerk that Sunday. Natalee apparently took a liking to him, and everyone says she had great judgment. If she had thought he was an arrogant liar, I doubt she would have spent any time with him.

Hi, la_cav  :D .  Maybe you missed my previous response because it was on page 50 of the last thread.  I wrote:

We really don't know if Natalee "took a liking to him" or not. How would we know that? For all we know, he saw her and her group leaving the bar and walked out to try to catch her and spend more time with her. We don't know that she spoke to him other than introducing herself earlier that day. And just because you introduce yourself to someone doesn't mean you took a liking to them. It is being polite. When my husband and I were in Vegas, if we were at a table gambling for a while with the same people, we would introduce ourselves or strike up small talk. That didn't mean we wanted to date the people.

I'd also like to add that I don't recall anyone saying she invited him to CnC's or was dancing with him at the bar.  One more thing.  Last night a woman told of her experience when she was unknowingly drugged with a "date rape" drug.  He husband told her that she was walking and talking coherently, yet she had no memory of it.  ***PERHAPS Natalee was drugged when she left the bar with the group of MBers and then Joran asked her if he could ride with her back to HI.  IN THIS THEORETICAL SCENARIO, she would have been willing to get in the car with him, but she would not have been cognizant of her actions.  JUST A THOUGHT  :D


Hi Puggy! (My nick should be BeagleWeagle). I still think the chances are greater that Natalee sort of liked Joran than she was trying to evade him the whole night.

I don't know if she invited Joran, but I know she told him she was going to CnCs that night. Why would you do that if you thought he was a jerk? And why would she dance with him? Why would she walk out with him? If she didn't like him, she could have asked one of the dozens of MBH students there to walk out with her.

I remember being in situations where a guy I didn't like was hanging out around me, and I would be sure to join my friends to get rid of him.

I'm sure Joran can be very charming with the ladies, and he was likely charming in Natalee's eyes that evening.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:26:15 PM
Hi arubagirl.. :D  No i didn`t get any "beschuit met muisjes" but then again it`s really bad foor your teeth they are so hard to chew on....

And I didn`t see her name already I think the name will be announced when the prince is going to the 'gemeentehuis'   :? To write the birthcertificate


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 07:26:34 PM
Quote from: "icey"
Well, SC and papa released for now. At least the new judge seemed satisfied with the cased against joren and the other 2 punks. It would appear the the case against the 3 is strong, if 2 different judges have ordered them held.

Those of you in the US better start calling, writing and otherwise making a nuisance out ourself with your elected officials, the FBI and the White House. Tell them we demand justice in this case, which is in the best interest of Aruba as well.  

Joren is guilty in my book, why?

1)Too many lies for no good reason.
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"  
3) He never brought Natalee back to the HI. His other bullcrap stories of "left her hysterical on the beach" and "left her sleeping on the beach" are either moronic or point to a woman raped, drugged or killed.

Other than that, the rumors of cell calls and text messages that night point to some type of activity.

If this case collapses and the result is "we don't know what happent the Natalee" or that " she might be kidnapped", that should spell doom for Aruba. That is not the story Aruba wants to tell. It will scare people away for sure.

icey


According to Satish's attorney, there is no evidence in this case whatsoever, and I for one agree with him. :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 07:26:51 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "Red"
Quote
--- wrote:
I cant deal with this anymore. I left for a few days, and was asked to come back... I did, now I wish I hadn't. I can't stand people's ignorance or maliciousness anymore, so congrats to all of you who want me gone... you win!

To all of you who actually care about Natalee, thank you. Please continue to pray for her safe return... Thank you again for all that you've done.

The truth will come out (I know more than you know, as do many others... Joran is guilty. This doesn't interest me though; I could care less what is done with him... I just wish he'd say where Natalee is.)

Thank you again to all of you who are supportive! Hopefully, you will keep fighting and be stronger than I can.

---  


I am going to reserve comment until later that one of the few people who were willing to talk about events just got ran off. Some one who many of us are thankful made an effort to give info when she did not have to.

Many of you have bitched and moaned that there were no MB's making comments or not going on shows. Its not that there were not MB teens doing so ... its they were not saying what you wanted to hear or refused to listen to.

How many times do people have to be told ... these are teenagers ... not adults and the same rules do not apply!

I am sad to see Dash go, and I am desperately praying for Natalee's safe return.  I am looking forward to your later comments, Red.  Thanks again for all your dedication.


I'm very sad, too. We all love Dash. And I'm very angry that Joran & company's friends/family have chosen to attack her.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: sandy on June 26, 2005, 07:27:24 PM
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.


I don't think the point was that he was drinking 2 months before his legal age!  It has been very obvious to most that he was doing this for quite some time.  He could not have been that unknown on the island.  People had to know he was still in HS.  From what we have seen on web pictures his behavior has been the same for a long time.  I don't buy the excuse he was just using a fake ID so we didn't know how old he was.

Drinking establishments and casinos have gone on the record saying they never let anyone in under age.  They did look the other way in this case.  

Am I a hypocrite?  No!  I actually did not drink until legal age, however, I don't see what that has to do with anything.


Hell, he was gambling at the Excelsior with his dad that night.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 07:28:21 PM
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
WWIZARD WROTE:

again w/ respect, why is NH above reproach??

Quote



I fully appreicate opinions, but you know the old adage, opinions are like as#holes, everyone has one and most are full of shi#. You don't know Natalee, you were not there so your speculations have proven to unfounded and hurtful. Someone has lost a dear friend under horrible circumstances and if it were your child, sister, friend, you would want the same respect.
[/quote]<<

No one is above reproach but you need something factual with which to do it.  So far, there is not much in that regard.  But why would you want to reproach her?  She is the victim here and the one who is missing and likely dead.  Most people do not want to speak ill of the dead because they are not here to defend themselves making it a really obnoxious thing to do.

Why would anybody want to issue reproach on somebody who is probably deceased and the victim of some horrible crime?  It is generally considered pretty low class to attack somebody who cannot fight back.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 07:28:37 PM
Quote from: "Kipster"
If they watched her drown, that would have been what they changed their story to. Hell, they should have concocted that one to begin with if they're responsible for harming her. It would have been the easiest to get out of.


Except they would have to explain why they didn't call for help on their cell phones.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 07:28:51 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
heck, I'll admit it, I vacillate between the goog girl/bad girl scenarios with the attending theories.......all I know is what's on this screen


I don't think that drinking at a club, leaving with new friends, or walking alone on the beach makes someone a "bad girl". Nor does it have anything to do with the disappearance case. :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 07:28:55 PM
Thanks, Hannie C.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mehill10 on June 26, 2005, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


where did this come from


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 26, 2005, 07:29:25 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "Kipster"
GuyWDog:
>>With these releases it appears that all this PRESSURE they have put on the main suspect(Joran) has not worked

Unfortunately, I think that's where they are now. Joran's not cracking, sure PVDS will testify, essentially he already has. They desperately need a body.


Paulus probably told Joran...'You can spend another 100 days in here, or another 7000.  The choice is yours.'

If this case reaches a dead end, as a last resort, they should allow the FBI to be alone with Joran, and tell him, 'we've cut a deal with the Aruban authorities to bring you to the US, where you'll be tried and convicted by a jury of your peers in Alabama, and be sentenced to death.  Don't worry, a lethal injection is a quick, painless way to go.  Your Dad can't help you.  The future of the island is more important than you.'

If he doesn't sing by the time he boards the FBI's plane, then, and only then would I believe in his innocence.


So US juries convict without evidence? Sounds corrupt to me. Also as a minor, Joran is not eligible for the DP, even in the US (recent ruling by the Supremes).


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 07:29:31 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
According to Satish's attorney, there is no evidence in this case whatsoever, and I for one agree with him. :wink:


Oh yeah. Big shock there that a defense attorney says there's no evidence and his client is innocent.

Hey pal, that's in the lawyer handbook. They all say that even when they know their client's lying through their teeth.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 07:30:17 PM
icey posted it, perhaps (s)he misheard the "what do you want me to do about it" alleged response from Joran


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sobelle on June 26, 2005, 07:30:25 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I still don`t understand what the drinking is about, maybe it`s b/c i`m dutch and used to a more liberal way of living, but i was also young and a girl and i can absolutly understand what youths are doing if they are from home at a beatiful place with a lot of friends and new people to meet!

I think that the 'responsable drinking ' isn`t the issue here, those kids were having fun drinking or not, they are no robots either. I think that a lot of people are forgetting that they were young also.... :wink:



I agree HannieC.  Sometimes the older we get "old-timers" seems to set in.  I also think that it is little bit more liberal way of living in Aruba than what a lot of us in the US are use to.  So people may need to take that in to consideration when looking at another culture. IMHO


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


To be honest, I do not know if I would advise someone so closely connected with the victim to venture beyond websites that deal exclusively with prayers and hopes that Natalee can be returned to her family, a prayer and hope that I share.


I have to agree regarding dash. When this forum first started I didn't believe she could possibly be one of Natalee's friends posting in a forum full of debate. I was proved to be wrong, she actually was real. But I think this is the wrong place for a friend of Natalee's to come to without expecting open discussion with people from all over the world commenting and debating this topic of missing Natalee.

This forum reminds me alot of forums such as Court tv and Websleuths. And I don't beleive it is a good place to read stuff you don't want to see from victims family, or victims friends. I know if I was one of those 2, it would be very hard to read some of the ideas being brought up here.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
To be honest, I do not know if I would advise someone so closely connected with the victim to venture beyond websites that deal exclusively with prayers and hopes that Natalee can be returned to her family, a prayer and hope that I share.


I have to say, I agree with you there.  I appreciate all the insight that Dash has given us here, but I think her own well-being should come before our "desire to know".

I hope Dash takes the time to relax and get the comfort and support she needs.

A discussion forum where people are disecting a potential crime against her friend, is not the best place for her at this time.

My thoughts and prayers are with Natalee, her family and today especially.. with her FRIEND, Alana.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: puggywug on June 26, 2005, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.

la_cavaličre wrote:
Joran couldn't have been THAT much of a jerk that Sunday. Natalee apparently took a liking to him, and everyone says she had great judgment. If she had thought he was an arrogant liar, I doubt she would have spent any time with him.

Hi, la_cav  :D .  Maybe you missed my previous response because it was on page 50 of the last thread.  I wrote:

We really don't know if Natalee "took a liking to him" or not. How would we know that? For all we know, he saw her and her group leaving the bar and walked out to try to catch her and spend more time with her. We don't know that she spoke to him other than introducing herself earlier that day. And just because you introduce yourself to someone doesn't mean you took a liking to them. It is being polite. When my husband and I were in Vegas, if we were at a table gambling for a while with the same people, we would introduce ourselves or strike up small talk. That didn't mean we wanted to date the people.

I'd also like to add that I don't recall anyone saying she invited him to CnC's or was dancing with him at the bar.  One more thing.  Last night a woman told of her experience when she was unknowingly drugged with a "date rape" drug.  He husband told her that she was walking and talking coherently, yet she had no memory of it.  ***PERHAPS Natalee was drugged when she left the bar with the group of MBers and then Joran asked her if he could ride with her back to HI.  IN THIS THEORETICAL SCENARIO, she would have been willing to get in the car with him, but she would not have been cognizant of her actions.  JUST A THOUGHT  :D


Hi Puggy! (My nick should be BeagleWeagle). I still think the chances are greater that Natalee sort of liked Joran than she was trying to evade him the whole night.

I don't know if she invited Joran, but I know she told him she was going to CnCs that night. Why would you do that if you thought he was a jerk? And why would she dance with him? Why would she walk out with him? If she didn't like him, she could have asked one of the dozens of MBH students there to walk out with her.
I remember being in situations where a guy I didn't like was hanging out around me, and I would be sure to join my friends to get rid of him.
I'm sure Joran can be very charming with the ladies, and he was likely charming in Natalee's eyes that evening.

Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection.  And she could have just asked, "What are you doing tonight" as a way to chit chat while they are sitting at the same gambling table.  WHat I mean is that I don't think we should assume she was interested in him.  There has been so much misinformation out there, and I have been basing my theories (plural - again, I have not made up my mind!  :) ) on what Dash, Dash's mom, and other parents of kids from the trip have posted.  When she left the bar, it was at the same time as a group of MB kids.  Dash asked her a question and Natalee replied that she was going back to the HI quote, "with them" and pointed to the group of MB kids.  That is one thing I believe happened.  :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mehill10 on June 26, 2005, 07:31:29 PM
arubagirl  Is it against the law in aruba to lie to the police?  in the USA it is  the cops can lie to you  but you lie to they  it's aother charge


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 07:31:52 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


thank you


IMO Dash is suffering now, her feelings are a little too raw to have any salt poured on them.  My heart goes out to her.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 07:32:19 PM
Surprisingly a lot of people are defending Joran, I dont agree with a lot of what they say, but it is good to have them here to balance things out.[/quote]

I agree with that.  What I am saying is that I think everyone at times speaks from their emotions and get's carried away without realizing it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 26, 2005, 07:32:20 PM
What's with the stars today?

I just received what I consider a very offensive PM who says they are writing with their ADMIN hat off.  This person said there was a time when "Dallas" protected the kids from my questions.  Since I have never, ever posted anything that would be offensive to those kids, I take real issue with such a comment.

The poster/admin went on to say:
Quote
There have also been huge inconsistences in what dash and other MB students posted, they contridicted their own interviews.


Are we now the FBI?  Are we law enforcement? We feel we can now hold kids experiencing deep trauma and loss accountable?  These kids owe us?  Give me a break.

If this is a serious crime forum, why did we welcome these kids here to begin with?  Sure, we got what we wanted from them,  sought their friendship and now we're done with them?

I think at least two of the Admins here should resign...that does NOT include Catriana...she rocks.  But, the PM's I've received from two of them are absolutely nuts.

I suggest we create a thread somewhere where these kids can be welcome with open arms.  The selfish jerks can stay away from that spot.  We owe them some kind of mature caring and fairness.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 07:32:33 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "wwizard"
heck, I'll admit it, I vacillate between the goog girl/bad girl scenarios with the attending theories.......all I know is what's on this screen


I don't think that drinking at a club, leaving with new friends, or walking alone on the beach makes someone a "bad girl". Nor does it have anything to do with the disappearance case. :roll:


there are some others blogs that paint a different picture.....heck, I don't know...I wasn't there.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 07:32:34 PM
mehill, if you sign a sworn statement and later it turns out not to be true, it's criminal.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 26, 2005, 07:33:04 PM
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


Just because this forum is debating a crime doesn't mean we can post whatever we want.  

If I were to make a post saying that I thought Natalee died while having sex with 10 men and doing every drug known to man without any evidence whatsoever, would that be acceptable?  Obviously it isn't.  We know this because it is a) completely unfoudned b) outrageous given what we know of her character and c) blatantly insulting to a victim.  

I've seen a lot of things like this on the forum, not any as outrageous, but some have come close.  I think this is the sort of stuff that makes Dash angry.



VERY well said..ditto to that!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 07:33:14 PM
Quote from: "mehill10"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


where did this come from


I have never seen that quote before.  Sounds like just another rumor.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 07:33:27 PM
Quote from: "katya"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "Kipster"
GuyWDog:
>>With these releases it appears that all this PRESSURE they have put on the main suspect(Joran) has not worked

Unfortunately, I think that's where they are now. Joran's not cracking, sure PVDS will testify, essentially he already has. They desperately need a body.


Paulus probably told Joran...'You can spend another 100 days in here, or another 7000.  The choice is yours.'

If this case reaches a dead end, as a last resort, they should allow the FBI to be alone with Joran, and tell him, 'we've cut a deal with the Aruban authorities to bring you to the US, where you'll be tried and convicted by a jury of your peers in Alabama, and be sentenced to death.  Don't worry, a lethal injection is a quick, painless way to go.  Your Dad can't help you.  The future of the island is more important than you.'

If he doesn't sing by the time he boards the FBI's plane, then, and only then would I believe in his innocence.


So US juries convict without evidence? Sounds corrupt to me. Also as a minor, Joran is not eligible for the DP, even in the US (recent ruling by the Supremes).


You're kidding me, right?  I didn't mean it, literally.  

I'm talking about scaring the $hit out of the kid to the point that he actually believes he's no longer protected.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 07:33:56 PM
Somehow the quote messed up.  

I agree with Nancy but have to take her quote out since it swallowed mine.


To all those who bashed the kids for staying quiet, you should be ashamed of yourselves.  This is a prime example of why they are staying quiet.[/qupote


I agree.  I just got back to the forum.  There are times when adults need to realize that vulnerable and hurting people are around.  It is not  a free speech issue.  It is a human decency issue to put a filter on your keyboard and think before your type.

Also, there is zero, no, none, zilch, nada, excuse to vilify the victim in a crime.   Sadly there are some people who just like to put people down and destroy rather than build up.


If you are one of the people that ran Dash off, first,  in my opinion you owe her and her mother an apology, and second, you really need to look in the mirror and think about yourself.  If you were that victim--would you want to have every little secret exposed and every tiny speck of dirt exposed.  

When there is a choice between going the "nice" think and the smart, sarcastic, witty thing, try picking nice for a change.[/quote]


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 07:33:57 PM
Film clip of PvdS on Fox: He said something like "I want to go home to my wife." The second part I didn't catch.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mordred on June 26, 2005, 07:34:00 PM
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
It makes me so sad Dash, of all people, ............
....Again, those who attacked the kids and their actions while Dash and others were posting here this afternoon, should be ashamed.


Nancy_Drew:
 I am suprised that you who seems to be very concerned about justice would interprete people's opinions that way. I have been on this forum for quite a while & I have not seen anyone attacking the MB kids in general on Natalee in particular! If she did drink, like Joran, went willingly with him, made-out, etc; there is NOTHING in those actions that constitute bad character for an 18 yr old. If she didn't, she would be weird!!!

Without being facetious, I have had opportunity to observe in the last few years that young people from the American South & those from a village in Nunavut generally act the same given similar circumstances.

Dash is off-course very sensitive about this sisnce its so close to home & her reaction is understandable.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mehill10 on June 26, 2005, 07:34:07 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
mehill, if you sign a sworn statement and later it turns out not to be true, it's criminal.


so why  was the DJ  not held and charged for telling the lie about seeing NH at the holday inn


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 07:34:09 PM
Judge in training Paul v d S whom since thursday is behind bars in Aruba, cannot resist the impression that he is imprisoned to pressure his son Joran.

Rechter-in-opleiding Paul van der S., die sinds donderdag achter Arubaanse tralies zit, kan zich niet aan de indruk ontrekken dat hij gevangen zit om zijn zoon Joran van der S. onder druk te zetten.

Yesterdaynight the magistrate R.Smid had to take a decisicion for if the DA office could detain Paul van der S. for a longer period in relation to his possible involvement in the disapearance of the American Natalee Holloway- The D.A. wanted to retain him for further questioning due to he made different statements about what he knows what happend the night Holloway dissapeared, 4 weeks ago.

Gisteravond moest rechter-commissaris R. Smid een beslissing nemen of het Openbaar Ministerie (OM) Paul van der S. langer mag vasthouden in verband met zijn mogelijke betrokkenheid bij de vermissing van de Amerikaanse Natalee Holloway. Het OM wil Van der S. langer aan de tand voelen, omdat hij verschillende verklaringen zou hebben afgelegd over wat hij weet wat er is gebeurd in de nacht dat Holloway verdween, vier weken geleden.

"It is terrible for him " says his lawyer A. Swaen. The man has been in aruba for 15 years. I Know him proffesionally as a jurist . At the end of this year he would finish his education for Judge. His live depends on it. Van der S. Sr is being just like his son suspected of complice of murder,
murder and abduction with resulting death.

,,Het is vreselijk voor hem'', zegt zij advocaat A. Swaen. ,,De man zit al vijftien jaar op Aruba. Ik ken hem professioneel als jurist. Hij zou aan het einde van dit jaar zijn opleiding tot rechter afronden. Zijn leven hangt hier vanaf.'' Van der S. senior wordt net als zijn zoon verdacht van medeplichtigheid aan moord, doodslag of wederrechtelijke vrijheidsberoving met de dood tot gevolg.

The magistrate has untill today to decide if the detention of Joran and the two Surinam brothers Deepak and Satish can renewed.
Allthough A.de Bie lawyer of Joran van der S. thinks that his client is going to be detained for an other period, even there is no proof at all.
The DA only has shown suggestions or suspicions. There is a moment that it is not reasonable anymore to detain him any further. The fact that someone lied  just once does not mean that he has done it.

De rechter-commissaris heeft tot vandaag de tijd om een beslissing te nemen over verlenging van de detentie van Joran van der S. en de Surinaamse broers Deepak en Satish K. Hoewel A. de Bie, advocaat van Joran van der S. denkt dat zijn cliënt langer vast moet blijven, is er volgens hem geen enkel bewijs. ,,Het OM is alleen nog maar met suggesties en vermoedens gekomen. Er komt een moment dat het niet meer redelijk is om hem langer vast te houden. Het feit dat iemand jokt of ooit een keer gelogen heeft, betekent niet dat hij het heeft gedaan.''

Also R. Oomen lawyer of Deepak K. does not understand why his client is detained for such a long period. I have no clues that there has been commited a crime , says Oomen. Deepak according to his lawyer has declared everything he can declare. The limits/boundries of what is acceptable in state of law has been reached.

Ook R. Oomen, advocaat van Deepak K., begrijpt niet waarom zijn cliënt zolang wordt vastgehouden. ,,Ik heb geen enkele aanwijzing dat er een misdrijf is gepleegd'', zegt Oomen. Deepak verleent volgens zijn advocaat alle medewerking aan het onderzoek. ,,Hij heeft alles verklaard wat hij kan verklaren. De grenzen zijn genaderd van wat in een rechtstaat acceptabel is.''

According to D. Kock lawyer of Sathish, everybody can be involved in this . You feel that they do not know anymore what has happend. We all know nomore then that a girl is been missing.

Volgens D. Kock, raadsman van Deepaks broer Satish, kan iedereen bij deze zaak worden betrokken. ,,Je voelt dat men niet weet wat er is gebeurd. We weten allemaal niet meer dan dat het meisje wordt vermist.''

The magistrate did release Steve C. yesterday. This 26 year old d.j. of a partyboat , did not even know Joran or Satish. Only Deepak K. he met occasionally in the cybercafe where Deepak works.

De rechter-commissaris heeft gisteren wel Steve C. vrijgelaten. Deze 26-jarige dj van een partyboot, kende Joran van der S. en Satish K. niet eens. Alleen Deepak K. had hij wel eens ontmoet in het internetcafé waar Deepak werkte.

According to Deepak en Satish they left Joran van der S. with Holloway on the beach next to the Marriot Hotel, in the night the American girl disapeared. After that they went home. Later van der S called Deepak to notify him he was walking home alone . His house is kilometres distant from the mentioned beach. Later van der S. sent a message sms to Deepak with the text : I am home

Volgens Deepak en Satish hebben zij Joran van der S. met Holloway op het strand naast het Marriott Hotel achtergelaten in de nacht de Amerikaanse verdween. Zij gingen toen naar huis. Later belde Van der S. naar Deepak met de mededeling dat hij alleen naar huis liep. Zijn huis ligt kilometers verwijderd van het bewuste strand. Later stuurde Van der S. nog een sms'je naar Deepak met de tekst: Ik ben thuis.

Artice forwrded by Hannie C.
Article Algemeen Dagblad

My Apologies for my bad english




can find.... it`s is from the AD newspaper


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LilOrphan on June 26, 2005, 07:34:23 PM
Quote from: "goon squad"
<<I have warned from day one that you have to let the Arubans handle this like they know how.>>


It wasn't pressure from family, U.S. media, U.S. government that caused the police to foul up the initial missing person report filing.

Nor did it cause the police to fail to secure a controlled interview from one of the last people seen with the missing person for six hours before the Holloways reached the Van Der Sloot residence.

And it didn't cause the police to neglect the collection of physical evidence, for nine days, from the last people seen with the missing person, when those people failed to provide a verifiable alibi.

And it didn't cause the police to detain two security guards with no connection to the case.

So I don't see the proof for the presence of Natalee's family, the U.S. media, and the FBI being a malevolent force on the investigation.  Because it appears that Aruban law enforcement's consistent screw-ups - and make no mistake, the handling of PVDS is another massive one - appear to occur independent of who or what is supposedly pressuring it.


What do we know about the head of the polis in that jurisdiction, and of the local government - any info at all?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kipster on June 26, 2005, 07:34:32 PM
Quote from: "arrabba"
Quote from: "Kipster"
If they watched her drown, that would have been what they changed their story to. Hell, they should have concocted that one to begin with if they're responsible for harming her. It would have been the easiest to get out of.


Except they would have to explain why they didn't call for help on their cell phones.


If they drugged her, they would have something to hide. If this drowning thing were true, it seems PVDS would have gotten it out of them and taken a shot at 'accidental death'.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:34:37 PM
Quote
This forum reminds me alot of forums such as Court tv and Websleuths. And I don't beleive it is a good place to read stuff you don't want to see from victims family, or victims friends. I know if I was one of those 2, it would be very hard to read some of the ideas being brought up here.


Well Websleuths fully and courttv to a lesser extent. Are Crime boards with victims rights focus. This is not, this is a news board that is an extention of Tom and Red's News commentary.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 26, 2005, 07:34:51 PM
Quote from: "icey"
Well, SC and papa released for now. At least the new judge seemed satisfied with the cased against joren and the other 2 punks. It would appear the the case against the 3 is strong, if 2 different judges have ordered them held.

Those of you in the US better start calling, writing and otherwise making a nuisance out ourself with your elected officials, the FBI and the White House. Tell them we demand justice in this case, which is in the best interest of Aruba as well.  

Joren is guilty in my book, why?

1)Too many lies for no good reason.
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"  
3) He never brought Natalee back to the HI. His other bullcrap stories of "left her hysterical on the beach" and "left her sleeping on the beach" are either moronic or point to a woman raped, drugged or killed.

Other than that, the rumors of cell calls and text messages that night point to some type of activity.

If this case collapses and the result is "we don't know what happent the Natalee" or that " she might be kidnapped", that should spell doom for Aruba. That is not the story Aruba wants to tell. It will scare people away for sure.

icey


I don't mean to be argumentative, but if you are concerned about justice, there are countless  cases  of injustice in your own backyard. What are you doing about them?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: cast on June 26, 2005, 07:35:24 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.

la_cavaličre wrote:
Joran couldn't have been THAT much of a jerk that Sunday. Natalee apparently took a liking to him, and everyone says she had great judgment. If she had thought he was an arrogant liar, I doubt she would have spent any time with him.

Hi, la_cav  :D .  Maybe you missed my previous response because it was on page 50 of the last thread.  I wrote:

We really don't know if Natalee "took a liking to him" or not. How would we know that? For all we know, he saw her and her group leaving the bar and walked out to try to catch her and spend more time with her. We don't know that she spoke to him other than introducing herself earlier that day. And just because you introduce yourself to someone doesn't mean you took a liking to them. It is being polite. When my husband and I were in Vegas, if we were at a table gambling for a while with the same people, we would introduce ourselves or strike up small talk. That didn't mean we wanted to date the people.

I'd also like to add that I don't recall anyone saying she invited him to CnC's or was dancing with him at the bar.  One more thing.  Last night a woman told of her experience when she was unknowingly drugged with a "date rape" drug.  He husband told her that she was walking and talking coherently, yet she had no memory of it.  ***PERHAPS Natalee was drugged when she left the bar with the group of MBers and then Joran asked her if he could ride with her back to HI.  IN THIS THEORETICAL SCENARIO, she would have been willing to get in the car with him, but she would not have been cognizant of her actions.  JUST A THOUGHT  :D


O'REILLY: All right. Now, Ed, when was the last time you saw Natalee?

ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.

O'REILLY: All right. So Natalee obviously knew him, then, was familiar with him. And when you saw him dancing with her, that didn't set off any bells. Was Natalee intoxicated, in your opinion?

KISSEL: I wouldn't say so. We were all having a good time. I'd go so far as to say that, but I wouldn't say intoxicated.

O'REILLY: She was drinking?

KISSEL: Drinking responsibly is what I would say.

O'REILLY: All right.

KISSEL: Along with the rest of us.

O'REILLY: Now, did you see her get into a car with Van Der Sloot and these two other guys?

KISSEL: I did not see her getting in the car. I saw her leaving, looked like with Van Der Sloot. I didn't see her getting in the car. You couldn't really see the road from inside the bar, so that is what I saw.

O'REILLY: But nothing set off any alarm bells for you, Ed? You didn't -- you weren't concerned or anything like that?

KISSEL: No. I wasn't personally concerned about anything. From what I've heard, I heard people talk about him and he sounded like a nice guy. So I didn't think any big deal.

I personally had ridden in the car over there. I made friends with one of the waiters. I'm fluent in Spanish, and you know, I was friends with somebody. And so I was thinking, you know, I rode in a car with somebody, she rides in the car with somebody, no big deal. I didn't think about it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: waited_too_long on June 26, 2005, 07:35:56 PM
Sorry I'm not sure how to use PM here. This is what I was posting about.

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:52 am    Post subject:
 
sb.. yeah that's what she was wearing that night... I really don't think the shoes thing would help at all... one of my friends realized today that she had picked up someone else's flip flops thinking they were hers b/c she had lost a pair, but now we think she might have accidently stole them from the passed out guy at the pool who followed us back to the hotel! Whoops! Seriously though, we all lost so much stuff down there, any flip flops, even if they had the freakin' spartan crest on them could have belonged to anyone, not just Nat.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:35:59 PM
Hi Arubagirl, I hope you feel better and that the recital went well!

Do you know if the Texas group have gone to that pond/dump in Noord yet?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 07:36:29 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "arrabba"
Sleeks wrote:
SO INSPECTOR WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED???


Well right now (because we havn't found a dead body) I think at some point Joran did leave her alone, and she was kidnapped by someone we have not heard about yet. Maybe she's being held in a personal residence right now against her will?

Inspector - You don't believe she is dead because there is no body.  However you believe she is kidnapped with no kidnapper or ransom note.


She was either kidnapped or ran away by herself. I don't think she ran away. It may not have been the kidnappers plan to ask for ransom, but to sell her into the sex slave trade. Remember what happened to Amy Bradley...


There is no more evidence of kidnapping than there is of murder.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 07:36:34 PM
So we do have a witness saying Natalee was dancing with Joran. TY.

ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Microcephalic on June 26, 2005, 07:36:36 PM
Quote
Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection. And she could have just asked, "What are you doing tonight" as a way to chit chat while they are sitting at the same gambling table. WHat I mean is that I don't think we should assume she was interested in him. There has been so much misinformation out there, and I have been basing my theories (plural - again, I have not made up my mind!  ) on what Dash, Dash's mom, and other parents of kids from the trip have posted. When she left the bar, it was at the same time as a group of MB kids. Dash asked her a question and Natalee replied that she was going back to the HI quote, "with them" and pointed to the group of MB kids. That is one thing I believe happened.


This contradicts what other students have said in an interview.  If she planned to return to Hi with the other students then the three boys basically kidnapped her in front of all of her friends.  Then the kidnap victim is seen by still other students hanging out the window of the kidnap vehilce shouting "Aruba, Aruba".  Sounds reasonable.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bobntexas on June 26, 2005, 07:36:48 PM
Quote from: "Marie"
She'll be back, I'm sure


Are you a reincarnation of a previous poster?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 07:37:10 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
...no one said she danced with him, to my recollection. ..


There was a young man on one of the Fox shows who was interviewed along with the young lady who saw her with someone tall with dark hair.

It was the young man who reported Natalee dancing with Joran at some point earlier in the evening of their last night there.

That is one of the reasons I was so intrigued by the report of the scuffle with the cousin, which took place earlier in the visit.

I would think that he would have mentioned it, if Natalee was not present (don't know that she was or wasn't)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.


My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.


I don't think the point was that he was drinking 2 months before his legal age!  It has been very obvious to most that he was doing this for quite some time.  He could not have been that unknown on the island.  People had to know he was still in HS.  From what we have seen on web pictures his behavior has been the same for a long time.  I don't buy the excuse he was just using a fake ID so we didn't know how old he was.

Drinking establishments and casinos have gone on the record saying they never let anyone in under age.  They did look the other way in this case.  

Am I a hypocrite?  No!  I actually did not drink until legal age, however, I don't see what that has to do with anything.
<<

But more than that, it establishes he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 07:37:23 PM
Film clip of PvdS on Fox: He said something like "I want to go home to my wife." The second part I didn't catch.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: "arrabba"
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "coco"
I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.


thank you


IMO Dash is suffering now, her feelings are a little too raw to have any salt poured on them.  My heart goes out to her.


Me too.  Her input here was great.  Its alot of courage to go on tv, and sometimes it makes life intense when everyone sees you for a minute or two and then debates every move/word for days...nevermind all this here for her to handle and worry for NH.  I hope she takes a break and feels better when she comes back.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 07:38:33 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
I don't know if she invited Joran, but I know she told him she was going to CnCs that night.


How do you know she wasn't just answering his question, "What are you all doing tonight?"

If you're going by the "Deepak" emails, remember that 90% of what he said in those was a lie.

And you don't know she walked out with him. He was walking next to her and managed to maneuver her into his friends' car. Her last comments to her friends was that she was going back to the hotel with the MB kids in front of her. Not, I'm going with him (Joran).

Figure it out.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 07:39:22 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"

Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection.


Actually, her friend Ed, who was at CnC's that night, said in an interview on Bill O'Reilly, that he did see Natalee and Joran dancing together.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 07:39:44 PM
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
It makes me so sad Dash, of all people, ............
....Again, those who attacked the kids and their actions while Dash and others were posting here this afternoon, should be ashamed.


Nancy_Drew:
 I am suprised that you who seems to be very concerned about justice would interprete people's opinions that way. I have been on this forum for quite a while & I have not seen anyone attacking the MB kids in general on Natalee in particular! If she did drink, like Joran, went willingly with him, made-out, etc; there is NOTHING in those actions that constitute bad character for an 18 yr old. If she didn't, she would be weird!!!

Without being facetious, I have had opportunity to observe in the last few years that young people from the American South & those from a village in Nunavut generally act the same given similar circumstances.

Dash is off-course very sensitive about this sisnce its so close to home & her reaction is understandable.


Maybe you haven't been reading these forums as much as everyone else, but I've seen people here stating as fact that Natalee was involved in group sex with all three, with no evidence.  This is the sort of absolute bullshit I can't stand.  It attacks the victim and has no evidence for it whatsoever.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 07:40:33 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 07:40:41 PM
There is no more evidence of kidnapping than there is of murder.[/quote]

Agreed. IMAO


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 07:40:51 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
Judge in training Paul v d S whom since thursday is behind bars in Aruba, cannot resist the impression that he is imprisoned to pressure his son Joran.

Artice forwrded by Hannie C.
Article Algemeen Dagblad

My Apologies for my bad english




can find.... it`s is from the AD newspaper


thank you bendex, for the translation


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 07:41:01 PM
mehill, I don't know if he lied about seeing NH at the HI.

He was held, but suspected of other charges.


Title: translation of Dutch article
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 07:41:09 PM
bendex thank for the very good translation  i admire your energy


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Microcephalic on June 26, 2005, 07:41:17 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
I don't know if she invited Joran, but I know she told him she was going to CnCs that night.


How do you know she wasn't just answering his question, "What are you all doing tonight?"

If you're going by the "Deepak" emails, remember that 90% of what he said in those was a lie.

And you don't know she walked out with him. He was walking next to her and managed to maneuver her into his friends' car. Her last comments to her friends was that she was going back to the hotel with the MB kids in front of her. Not, I'm going with him (Joran).

Figure it out.


How can one remember something that has not been proved.  Seems more like 90% of the e-mail is accurate.  Again she must have been happy about the kidnapping given that she was seen by students chanting "Aruba Aruba" and saying that she was alright.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:41:39 PM
Sobelle wrote:
Quote

I agree HannieC. Sometimes the older we get "old-timers" seems to set in. I also think that it is little bit more liberal way of living in Aruba than what a lot of us in the US are use to. So people may need to take that in to consideration when looking at another culture. IMHO



Thanks Sobelle :)  And what I know of Arubian people and the Antilles those people are laughing and enjoying live and are very welcoming,  by the way I must admit a lot of difference in Holland, not to generalize but although part of the dutch kingdom,  the mentality of the people of aruba and the antilles is a lot different than the netherlands. So I can surely understand that people of a lot of countries are coming on holiday there to enjoy the lighthearted spirits and the sun and the drinks and the beatiful beaches and people.... I hop I don`t sound like an ad or something but I mean it :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 07:41:56 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.

la_cavaličre wrote:
Joran couldn't have been THAT much of a jerk that Sunday. Natalee apparently took a liking to him, and everyone says she had great judgment. If she had thought he was an arrogant liar, I doubt she would have spent any time with him.

Hi, la_cav  :D .  Maybe you missed my previous response because it was on page 50 of the last thread.  I wrote:

We really don't know if Natalee "took a liking to him" or not. How would we know that? For all we know, he saw her and her group leaving the bar and walked out to try to catch her and spend more time with her. We don't know that she spoke to him other than introducing herself earlier that day. And just because you introduce yourself to someone doesn't mean you took a liking to them. It is being polite. When my husband and I were in Vegas, if we were at a table gambling for a while with the same people, we would introduce ourselves or strike up small talk. That didn't mean we wanted to date the people.

I'd also like to add that I don't recall anyone saying she invited him to CnC's or was dancing with him at the bar.  One more thing.  Last night a woman told of her experience when she was unknowingly drugged with a "date rape" drug.  He husband told her that she was walking and talking coherently, yet she had no memory of it.  ***PERHAPS Natalee was drugged when she left the bar with the group of MBers and then Joran asked her if he could ride with her back to HI.  IN THIS THEORETICAL SCENARIO, she would have been willing to get in the car with him, but she would not have been cognizant of her actions.  JUST A THOUGHT  :D


Again Ted Bundy was a nice guy to a lot of girls too


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:42:29 PM
Quote
Maybe you haven't been reading these forums as much as everyone else, but I've seen people here stating as fact that Natalee was involved in group sex with all three, with no evidence. This is the sort of absolute bullshit I can't stand. It attacks the victim and has no evidence for it whatsoever.


It isn't an attack on the victim if she was drugged and forced. And more powerful if she wasn't drugged by her attackers.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: puggywug on June 26, 2005, 07:44:08 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "puggywug"

Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection.


Actually, her friend Ed, who was at CnC's that night, said in an interview on Bill O'Reilly, that he did see Natalee and Joran dancing together.

OK, as you all know if you've seen me do this before her, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.  So, someone did say they saw her dancing in the bar with Joran.  But I stand by everything else I said.  And my overall point is that some of you don't know that she was interested in Joran.  We do know that she told her friends that she intended to go directly back to the HI after leaving CnC.  We do know that she has not been seen since.  SOMETHING is terribly wrong here, and I am suspicious of Joran.  I am not saying I think he murdered her.  I am thinking more along the lines of an accident or a sexual assault.  But I haven't decided.  IMO, he is the most likely suspect.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:44:21 PM
I think it was very easy for many posters here to forget Dash was a kid, a teenager. She is articulate, smart and loyal (wonderful qualities). However, most of us on this board are adults who have been around the block a time or 2 and are old hats a message boards or blogs. We have grown thick skin, and can give as good as we get. That should never have been expected of Dash or MBHgirl ( sorry I know I have your name wrong). Not one of us would ever let another adult speak to our teenage child in a hateful manner. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mehill10 on June 26, 2005, 07:44:24 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
mehill, I don't know if he lied about seeing NH at the HI.

He was held, but suspected of other charges.


I was just going on what fox new said the reason he was arrested


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:44:26 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?


No but I'll bet he is the only one who is 6' 3" or more.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 07:44:57 PM
Quote from: "katya"
I don't mean to be argumentative, but if you are concerned about justice, there are countless  cases  of injustice in your own backyard. What are you doing about them?


Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: SoccerDad on June 26, 2005, 07:45:34 PM
Quote from: "Catriana"
Quote from: "Ting"
To be honest, I do not know if I would advise someone so closely connected with the victim to venture beyond websites that deal exclusively with prayers and hopes that Natalee can be returned to her family, a prayer and hope that I share.


I have to say, I agree with you there.  I appreciate all the insight that Dash has given us here, but I think her own well-being should come before our "desire to know".

I hope Dash takes the time to relax and get the comfort and support she needs.

A discussion forum where people are disecting a potential crime against her friend, is not the best place for her at this time.

My thoughts and prayers are with Natalee, her family and today especially.. with her FRIEND, Alana.


I agree with both of you. Well said.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 07:45:52 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "puggywug"

Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection.


Actually, her friend Ed, who was at CnC's that night, said in an interview on Bill O'Reilly, that he did see Natalee and Joran dancing together.

OK, as you all know if you've seen me do this before her, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.  So, someone did say they saw her dancing in the bar with Joran.  But I stand by everything else I said.  And my overall point is that some of you don't know that she was interested in Joran.  We do know that she told her friends that she intended to go directly back to the HI after leaving CnC.  We do know that she has not been seen since.  SOMETHING is terribly wrong here, and I am suspicious of Joran.  I am not saying I think he murdered her.  I am thinking more along the lines of an accident or a sexual assault.  But I haven't decided.  IMO, he is the most likely suspect.


Well and let's get real....he was the last one to be seen with her.  That alone says alot.  (To me at least!!)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: sandy on June 26, 2005, 07:46:40 PM
Bendex's translation states Deepak received 2 messages after he left Joran - one I am walking home, 2 I am home - is this normal - or is it part of a plan to establish fake timelines?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Loren on June 26, 2005, 07:47:03 PM
I really do not understand what difference it makes if NH liked Joran, danced with him, flirted with him or went off with him in his car on her own volition.... Murder does not follow logically in those scenarios!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 07:47:06 PM
In my opinion, whatever consensual behavior any woman (or man, for that matter) engages in does not justify any criminal activity against them.

I have seen no indication that Natalee is suspected of having committed a crime, although it does appear likely that she is the victim of one.

Thus, neither her behavior nor her character require any defending, nor is any harm that may have been done to her less criminal regardless.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:47:09 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "wwizard"
heck, I'll admit it, I vacillate between the goog girl/bad girl scenarios with the attending theories.......all I know is what's on this screen


I don't think that drinking at a club, leaving with new friends, or walking alone on the beach makes someone a "bad girl". Nor does it have anything to do with the disappearance case. :roll:


just a look at my pic shows what those activities can lead to!.  :lol:  No those things does not a "ho" make, it never will. And certainly does not mean anyone who engages in those actions deserves to be hurt.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 07:47:16 PM
Tell me bout teen pressure, when I was 15 I walked in on my grandmother with a gun in her hand. Right before she took her life. Should I grab the gun or run for help….I ran…I still remember the look in her eyes..


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 07:47:25 PM
Quote from: "Microcephalic"
Quote
Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection. And she could have just asked, "What are you doing tonight" as a way to chit chat while they are sitting at the same gambling table. WHat I mean is that I don't think we should assume she was interested in him. There has been so much misinformation out there, and I have been basing my theories (plural - again, I have not made up my mind!  ) on what Dash, Dash's mom, and other parents of kids from the trip have posted. When she left the bar, it was at the same time as a group of MB kids. Dash asked her a question and Natalee replied that she was going back to the HI quote, "with them" and pointed to the group of MB kids. That is one thing I believe happened.


This contradicts what other students have said in an interview.  If she planned to return to Hi with the other students then the three boys basically kidnapped her in front of all of her friends.  Then the kidnap victim is seen by still other students hanging out the window of the kidnap vehilce shouting "Aruba, Aruba".  Sounds reasonable.
<<

Actually she was behind the crowd of all her friends as they loaded into taxis.  A car pulled up as they had worked their way up to the curb and it is assumed she got inside it.  What other student saw her shouting Aruba out the window??  Maybe it was a call for help that sounded phonetically like that.  Perhaps her speech was beginning to slur from being drugged or she did not know what she was saying for does not seem like a likely thing to shout out of a window.  But if Joren deliberately guided her into the car, he could have blocked her view of them as she was the last waiting to get into the taxis.  

To what interview are you referring for this has been posted to this forum previouosly?  She said one moment she was returning with "them" pointing to the other students and the next  minute she was gone in the car with Joren.  How would she know if it was a taxi or not?  She did not know the brothers.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dragonfly on June 26, 2005, 07:47:50 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "puggywug"

Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection.


Actually, her friend Ed, who was at CnC's that night, said in an interview on Bill O'Reilly, that he did see Natalee and Joran dancing together.


But, IF you believe that the emails wonderwoman posted are legit (which I personally don't), it says in there that Joran would not dance with Natalee.  That she kept asking him and he kept saying no.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 07:47:59 PM
Quote from: "Microcephalic"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
I don't know if she invited Joran, but I know she told him she was going to CnCs that night.


How do you know she wasn't just answering his question, "What are you all doing tonight?"

If you're going by the "Deepak" emails, remember that 90% of what he said in those was a lie.

And you don't know she walked out with him. He was walking next to her and managed to maneuver her into his friends' car. Her last comments to her friends was that she was going back to the hotel with the MB kids in front of her. Not, I'm going with him (Joran).

Figure it out.


How can one remember something that has not been proved.  Seems more like 90% of the e-mail is accurate.  Again she must have been happy about the kidnapping given that she was seen by students chanting "Aruba Aruba" and saying that she was alright.


His whole story has changed from what was in that email. And yet you still claim it's true? Even when he's admitted it was a lie?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 07:48:32 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote
This forum reminds me alot of forums such as Court tv and Websleuths. And I don't beleive it is a good place to read stuff you don't want to see from victims family, or victims friends. I know if I was one of those 2, it would be very hard to read some of the ideas being brought up here.


Well Websleuths fully and courttv to a lesser extent. Are Crime boards with victims rights focus. This is not, this is a news board that is an extention of Tom and Red's News commentary.


Ohh, I agree fully Absolut. I can see this forum is not a victims right focus, rather, I see it as an open forum to debate the case of a missing person.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: puggywug on June 26, 2005, 07:48:49 PM
Bye, everyone.  I need a break from this forum, for the rest of the night anyway.   :wink:  I am really sad Dash left.  Please be respectful of one another, ok?  And remember, this is all theory and speculation. THE ONLY FACT WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN IS THAT NATALEE IS MISSING.  :cry:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 26, 2005, 07:48:50 PM
Arubagirl..thanks so much for taking those pics today...where can i find them?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 07:49:09 PM
Quote from: "Loren"
I really do not understand what difference it makes if NH liked Joran, danced with him, flirted with him or went off with him in his car on her own volition.... Murder does not follow logically in those scenarios!


Ditto.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 07:49:27 PM
Quote from: "sandy"
Bendex's translation states Deepak received 2 messages after he left Joran - one I am walking home, 2 I am home - is this normal - or is it part of a plan to establish fake timelines?


Unless Joran is Deepak's bitch, there would be no reasonable expectation for ANY guy to give his friend a courtesy call to let him know he got home alright, unless he was seriously hammered, and had to drive home drunk.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 07:49:32 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?


No but I'll bet he is the only one who is 6' 3" or more.


Do you think he received preferential treatment because he is tall?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 07:51:27 PM
Quote from: "dragonfly"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "puggywug"

Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection.


Actually, her friend Ed, who was at CnC's that night, said in an interview on Bill O'Reilly, that he did see Natalee and Joran dancing together.


But, IF you believe that the emails wonderwoman posted are legit (which I personally don't), it says in there that Joran would not dance with Natalee.  That she kept asking him and he kept saying no.


I think that letter said that she was on the bar dancing with others, and she asked Joran to come up and dance with her on the bar? And he said no. Then she went to deepak and asked him why his friend(joran) wouldn't dance with her....

all speculation that letter from wonderwoman IMO


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 07:51:45 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "katya"
I don't mean to be argumentative, but if you are concerned about justice, there are countless  cases  of injustice in your own backyard. What are you doing about them?


Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?


Katya, it is agreed that we have injustice and justice misplaced.  Whatever the instance you could likely find a blog or website making comments about them.  However, here the topic is Natalee.  If you would like to know what is being said about the other instances of "injustice in ..." our own backyard, please feel free to google a name.  It will take you to those forums.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:52:39 PM
writenow wrote:

Quote
Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?



writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mordred on June 26, 2005, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "puggywug"

.......  And my overall point is that some of you don't know that she was interested in Joran.  .....SOMETHING is terribly wrong here, and I am suspicious of Joran.  I am not saying I think he murdered her.  I am thinking more along the lines of an accident or a sexual assault.  But I haven't decided.  IMO, he is the most likely suspect.


The reason that many people think she liked Joran, even a little bit is because she allegedly danced & hang out with him by her schoolmates' accounts. I dont see how liking him or not makes any difference though - In fact most sexual assaults are perpetrated by people one knows, has a relationship with, etc: An 18 year old girl  is more likely to be assaulted on a date (with someone she LIKES) rather than by a stranger.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 07:52:56 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?
 

some cable network interviewed one (in a casino) who was there with joran that night whose voice had not changed and would need a stool to reach the tables.   they need them local kids as a draw to attract the senoir trippers to get in there and compete against and fight with the locals challenging them on their own turf.  i bet it is a real loose operation   besides joran was 17 and 9 months something was he not?  they probably treat anybody coming in there to throw their money down a rathole deferentially and joran doesn't have to do anything to get a little extra deference becasue everybody wants to stay on the good side of a judge.  the night in question he was even under the adult supervision of his father.  

the mb kids at 18 are 3 years short of legal age in the us and i do not understand how what is not ok in the us suddenly becomes ok in aruba because it is "legal".   "legal" don't make it right.  our legal drinking age is obviously too high and i don't understand how we got there except that we are hypocrites because they drink anyway and then they are criminals unless they can afford a trip to aruba, cancun, juarez, nogales or Tijuana.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 07:52:57 PM
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 07:53:34 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
I think it was very easy for many posters here to forget Dash was a kid, a teenager. She is articulate, smart and loyal (wonderful qualities). However, most of us on this board are adults who have been around the block a time or 2 and are old hats a message boards or blogs. We have grown thick skin, and can give as good as we get. That should never have been expected of Dash or MBHgirl ( sorry I know I have your name wrong). Not one of us would ever let another adult speak to our teenage child in a hateful manner. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.


Right, but at same time please read my opinion with open mind: people are hard on this joran for his attitude towards the hollaways that nite they visited him....he has the same passion that dash does "young and bold", we just don't know the facts in this case enough to know what has really transpired. I have gone back and forth on this kids guilt/innocence 4 times, and until I guess I heard all of the evidence that the prosecution has down there, I will never really know what side to sway to in his guilt.

But given the fact that I am used to our judicial system here in the usa, I have to be 100 percent convinced that he is guilty to believe that he did it.

My heart goes out to her family and I clearly want them to know that I feel so bad for her, they want answers as do we all, but at same time, until this kid confesses or evidence has been presented to prove he did it, I can not stick my neck out and say "HE KILLED HER"


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 07:54:26 PM
In the promotional materials from one of the companies that package these graduation and spring break trips they specifically say that Aruba's drinking age is 18 but they rarely card.

I'll see if I can dig it up again ...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Microcephalic on June 26, 2005, 07:55:37 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Microcephalic"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
I don't know if she invited Joran, but I know she told him she was going to CnCs that night.


How do you know she wasn't just answering his question, "What are you all doing tonight?"

If you're going by the "Deepak" emails, remember that 90% of what he said in those was a lie.

And you don't know she walked out with him. He was walking next to her and managed to maneuver her into his friends' car. Her last comments to her friends was that she was going back to the hotel with the MB kids in front of her. Not, I'm going with him (Joran).

Figure it out.


How can one remember something that has not been proved.  Seems more like 90% of the e-mail is accurate.  Again she must have been happy about the kidnapping given that she was seen by students chanting "Aruba Aruba" and saying that she was alright.


His whole story has changed from what was in that email. And yet you still claim it's true? Even when he's admitted it was a lie?


His whole story hasn't changed.  We certainly don't know with any certainity what his story is.  The police are not talking.  Just about everything in the e-mail up to the point of dropping NH off at the HI has been confirmed by interviews with other students that I have seen on FOX and second hand accounts given by the parents.  I do not recall which two kids said it but she was seen in the car with the boys and was aked if she was alright.  She said she was.  This was one one of the first interviews and is what led me to believe that the e-mail was legit.  The events described in the casino in the e-mail have been cooberated by the students as have events in and outside C&C's.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 07:55:46 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?


No but I'll bet he is the only one who is 6' 3" or more.


Do you think he received preferential treatment because he is tall?


No I think got in cause he is tall the same way he did at 17 and 0 months and maybe even 16.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 26, 2005, 07:55:46 PM
Lots of 360-degree virtual reality tours of places on Aruba:

http://aruba.com/pages/vrtour.htm


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 07:55:59 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?
 

some cable network interviewed one (in a casino) who was there with joran that night whose voice had not changed and would need a stool to reach the tables.   they need them local kids as a draw to attract the senoir trippers to get in there and compete against and fight with the locals challenging them on their own turf.  i bet it is a real loose operation   besides joran was 17 and 9 months something was he not?  they probably treat anybody coming in there to throw their money down a rathole deferentially and joran doesn't have to do anything to get a little extra deference becasue everybody wants to stay on the good side of a judge.  the night in question he was even under the adult supervision of his father.  

the mb kids at 18 are 3 years short of legal age in the us and i do not understand how what is not ok in the us suddenly becomes ok in aruba because it is "legal".   "legal" don't make it right.  our legal drinking age is obviously too high and i don't understand how we got there except that we are hypocrites because they drink anyway and then they are criminals unless they can afford a trip to aruba, cancun, juarez, nogales or Tijuana.


Does it meqn they deserve to be murdered?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KoG on June 26, 2005, 07:56:00 PM
It's a shame we lost the MB poster because of the some of the biased moderating that occurs in here. Any / all defenders of natalee have been slowly silenced by the cries of "troll, troll".

Defend the twitty family's calls for prayers for their daughter hear "troll, troll". The deliberately blind, deaf, and ignorant monkies swing to the high branches when the trolls cry "there's a troll amongst us!". It all sadly reminds me of the McCarthy days.

You sir are a communist...I mean troll...I mean communist.

Please don't feed the hate..to trolls by whatever name. Hopefully the lurkers are distinguishing the differnce between actual opinions and statements of preference/perspective ("my favorite color is blue...Aruba is paradise...Aruba is hell on earth...the butler sweats too much "). Opinions will be shaped by facts & logic, the prefences/perspectives are limited only by the number of posters on this forum.

If gained perspective is so important to the collective mission of the posters here, then you've done yourselves disservice by chasing away the MB 2.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 07:56:05 PM
So people run of the folks who might actually know something so they can play amateur detective like they do on court tv?


I never watch it and never plan to.  I teach-- I care about kids.  I care about current events since I teach ap language.  I don't see how some people wanting to be pretend police detectives is justification for insulting a young lady who has been a key part of this forum and who was even gracious enough to give the guys an interview for the front page.

Folks, this is a message board about polics and current events.  If you want a court board where you can cross examine and grill everyone like you are a da, then one of us has the wrong forum.

Look at sign up numbers.  I was here in the recent beginning.  As more people have found the forums they seem to be forcing a shift in the focus.

I don't think it is a shift for the good.

Perhaps that is why our good aruban friends also spend less and less time here.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 07:56:28 PM
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
It makes me so sad Dash, of all people, ............
....Again, those who attacked the kids and their actions while Dash and others were posting here this afternoon, should be ashamed.


Nancy_Drew:
 I am suprised that you who seems to be very concerned about justice would interprete people's opinions that way. I have been on this forum for quite a while & I have not seen anyone attacking the MB kids in general on Natalee in particular! If she did drink, like Joran, went willingly with him, made-out, etc; there is NOTHING in those actions that constitute bad character for an 18 yr old. If she didn't, she would be weird!!!

Without being facetious, I have had opportunity to observe in the last few years that young people from the American South & those from a village in Nunavut generally act the same given similar circumstances.

Dash is off-course very sensitive about this sisnce its so close to home & her reaction is understandable.


Maybe you haven't been reading these forums as much as everyone else, but I've seen people here stating as fact that Natalee was involved in group sex with all three, with no evidence.  This is the sort of absolute bullshit I can't stand.  It attacks the victim and has no evidence for it whatsoever.
>>

Not only Natalee but the MB kids themselves have been accused of some sinister cover up and also accused of reading from a script, refusing to give interviews to MSM (their choice, is it not?) of smirking and saying things they did not say.  

I am surprised anyone would defend all that.  No, there is nothing in that to charcterize bad behavior--it just didn't happen.  That is what upsets her friends.  Had it happened, I doubt there would be any denial but since it did NOT, it can be pretty annoying to have people continue to insist that it did when Dash and others know it just did not happen.  No prob if it did but since it didn't, it upsets them to have people insist something happened that did not.  

I find that completely reasonable myself.  What part do you have a problem with?  Are you suggesting they should agree that some things happened that did not just to appease those who want them to have done so?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RichinTx on June 26, 2005, 07:57:36 PM
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 07:57:56 PM
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 07:58:35 PM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
So we do have a witness saying Natalee was dancing with Joran. TY.

ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.


we have more than that we have Ed saying: (OMG! Hell just started freezing over because I am quoting O'Reilly)
O'REILLY: But nothing set off any alarm bells for you, Ed? You didn't -- you weren't concerned or anything like that?

KISSEL: No. I wasn't personally concerned about anything. From what I've heard, I heard people talk about him and he sounded like a nice guy. So I didn't think any big deal
**********

so it seems from witnesses Natalee was at the very least polite, and seems to have like joran. Could she have fallen for a player like many of us do or did when we were 18 ?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 07:58:45 PM
Thanks bendex for your translation ,,,,pfff i`m behind with reading again :?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: "coco"
In the promotional materials from one of the companies that package these graduation and spring break trips they specifically say that Aruba's drinking age is 18 but they rarely card.

I'll see if I can dig it up again ...


coco:  hurry before the erase it!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 07:59:07 PM
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 26, 2005, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "puggywug"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "puggywug"

.......  And my overall point is that some of you don't know that she was interested in Joran.  .....SOMETHING is terribly wrong here, and I am suspicious of Joran.  I am not saying I think he murdered her.  I am thinking more along the lines of an accident or a sexual assault.  But I haven't decided.  IMO, he is the most likely suspect.


The reason that many people think she liked Joran, even a little bit is because she allegedly danced & hang out with him by her schoolmates' accounts. I dont see how liking him or not makes any difference though - In fact most sexual assaults are perpetrated by people one knows, has a relationship with, etc: An 18 year old girl  is more likely to be assaulted on a date (with someone she LIKES) rather than by a stranger.



As A victim of date rape, i totally agree...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 08:00:09 PM
Quote from: "puggywug"
THE ONLY FACT WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN IS THAT NATALEE IS MISSING.  :cry:



 :( :( :(


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: spab on June 26, 2005, 08:00:23 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
It's a shame we lost the MB poster because of the some of the biased moderating that occurs in here. Any / all defenders of natalee have been slowly silenced by the cries of "troll, troll".

Defend the twitty family's calls for prayers for their daughter hear "troll, troll". The deliberately blind, deaf, and ignorant monkies swing to the high branches when the trolls cry "there's a troll amongst us!". It all sadly reminds me of the McCarthy days.

You sir are a communist...I mean troll...I mean communist.

Please don't feed the hate..to trolls by whatever name. Hopefully the lurkers are distinguishing the differnce between actual opinions and statements of preference/perspective ("my favorite color is blue...Aruba is paradise...Aruba is hell on earth...the butler sweats too much "). Opinions will be shaped by facts & logic, the prefences/perspectives are limited only by the number of posters on this forum.

If gained perspective is so important to the collective mission of the posters here, then you've done yourselves disservice by chasing away the MB 2.




...  :shock:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:00:53 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Right, what I am saying is that they are defending their friend, but in actualitly, who is here to defend the 3 boys in custody?  I certainly am not saying these 3 are innocent, but at same time, I also want to remain objective.  I am in my 40's and still know some of the crazy things I did when not with my folk's around at the age of 17/18, and if they knew half of it, they would be rolling in their graves to this day


Did you ever kidnap someone and then lie to cover it up?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Zazzu on June 26, 2005, 08:01:07 PM
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
I think it was very easy for many posters here to forget Dash was a kid, a teenager. She is articulate, smart and loyal (wonderful qualities). However, most of us on this board are adults who have been around the block a time or 2 and are old hats a message boards or blogs. We have grown thick skin, and can give as good as we get. That should never have been expected of Dash or MBHgirl ( sorry I know I have your name wrong). Not one of us would ever let another adult speak to our teenage child in a hateful manner. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.


Right, but at same time please read my opinion with open mind: people are hard on this joran for his attitude towards the hollaways that nite they visited him....he has the same passion that dash does "young and bold", we just don't know the facts in this case enough to know what has really transpired. I have gone back and forth on this kids guilt/innocence 4 times, and until I guess I heard all of the evidence that the prosecution has down there, I will never really know what side to sway to in his guilt.

But given the fact that I am used to our judicial system here in the usa, I have to be 100 percent convinced that he is guilty to believe that he did it.

Quote
My heart goes out to her family and I clearly want them to know that I feel so bad for her, they want answers as do we all, but at same time, until this kid confesses or evidence has been presented to prove he did it, I can not stick my neck out and say "HE KILLED HER"


Same here! I can't convict this guy yet until the LE gives more proof beyond one lie(that is all they have actually given us)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 08:02:25 PM
I have been gone for a couple of hours and all hell has broken out. I've only read the last seven pages...not the rest of the section I was posting on when I had to leave.....too many pages to catch up now.

Could someone please give me a quick summary of why Dash left and there are so many posts in defense of the VDS's?? Also any other news that has transpired in the last few hours would be appreciated. Thanks.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 08:02:35 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?


No but I'll bet he is the only one who is 6' 3" or more.
<<

I have no way of knowing if he was the only one or not but I did hear several bartenders and casino managers saying they did not serve drinks to those under age nor allow them in the casinos.  

So they were all lying and all 17 year olds are out at all hours on school nights?  They are much tougher than my kids if they can booze and gamble the night away and attend school regularly.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 08:02:38 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


I would let the victims decide the fate of the criminal.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 08:03:28 PM
I am calling it a night maby later guys.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


thank you


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 08:05:04 PM
Quote from: "Scott"

Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Young people today, male and female, all over the world, text their friends to notify them that they have finished flossing.

Of all the purported communications, this one seems to be the least significant.

He either texted him to let him know he no longer needed a ride, or to let him know he got home safely, or to discuss something that happened during the evening.

Without the content of the message, the fact that there was a message is in my opinion, nothing.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 08:05:06 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
It's a shame we lost the MB poster because of the some of the biased moderating that occurs in here. Any / all defenders of natalee have been slowly silenced by the cries of "troll, troll".

Defend the twitty family's calls for prayers for their daughter hear "troll, troll". The deliberately blind, deaf, and ignorant monkies swing to the high branches when the trolls cry "there's a troll amongst us!". It all sadly reminds me of the McCarthy days.

You sir are a communist...I mean troll...I mean communist.

Please don't feed the hate..to trolls by whatever name. Hopefully the lurkers are distinguishing the differnce between actual opinions and statements of preference/perspective ("my favorite color is blue...Aruba is paradise...Aruba is hell on earth...the butler sweats too much "). Opinions will be shaped by facts & logic, the prefences/perspectives are limited only by the number of posters on this forum.

If gained perspective is so important to the collective mission of the posters here, then you've done yourselves disservice by chasing away the MB 2.


No one is banned because they disagree with any certain viewpoint.   Everyone has the right to state their opinion, as long as they keep it respectful to those who might disagree with them.   All bans (and there have not been that many) that I know of were due to attacking people/individuals.   Attacking anyone will not be tolerated.   Neither will attacking the admins/moderators here for doing their job.

Calling people names is considered attacking.  If you have a problem with moderation/banning please PM an Admin to discuss your issue.   DO NOT TAKE MODERATION/BANNING issues to the PUBLIC forum.

Thank you!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "wwizard"
heck, I'll admit it, I vacillate between the goog girl/bad girl scenarios with the attending theories.......all I know is what's on this screen


I don't think that drinking at a club, leaving with new friends, or walking alone on the beach makes someone a "bad girl". Nor does it have anything to do with the disappearance case. :roll:


just a look at my pic shows what those activities can lead to!.  :lol:  No those things does not a "ho" make, it never will. And certainly does not mean anyone who engages in those actions deserves to be hurt.
<<

How do you know it has nothing to do with the disappearance case?  No one else has that information so what is your source?  Are you claiming to know for a fact that this is not exactly how she came to disappear?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KoG on June 26, 2005, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


Ting,

What happened to the "we are not Arubans on one side and Americans on the other. We are all brother and sisters united in our mission to ensure justice where justice is due?" attitude of Arubans.

I do not assume that all Arubans think/act the same. Why is it that you seem to feel such blanket contempt for Americans because of isolated experiences w/ them in this forum.

Please do not allow yourself to be pushed to an extreme viewpoint at the opposite end of the spectrum of thought and consider yourself an objective contributer here.

I do, however, appreciate that you do possess and share a unique perspective regarding this case. It is not shared excluively by Arubans though.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:06:53 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mordred on June 26, 2005, 08:06:59 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"

Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Scott- Its not only in Aruba, In fact I usually insist that most of my friends (male & female) CALL me when they get home after we have been partying!!    I once got a scary call from a friend's mother asking me where he was after we had been partying all night & he drove home. Luckily, he was OK but you catch my drift?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 26, 2005, 08:07:18 PM
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


Your comment is self serving and cold.  Rather than take a deep breath and consider how to right a wrong...or, even admit we did wrong...another  officous tyrade about "her delicate emotional state".

Somebody should at least consider plans to find a spot here where these kids are allowed.  We have welcomed them here for the last two weeks and now we're so damn important we make it sound like they are weak, emotional and AT FAULT...

I'm sorry this stinks to high heaven.  I'm outta here...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 08:07:22 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


Enough already.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: WonderWoman on June 26, 2005, 08:07:33 PM
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


very well said


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 08:07:36 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


thank you


Actually she did give us a lot of valuable info since she was on the trip.  Maybe you should try reading her posts, we learned a lot of what went on and what happened, a lot more than just the she was a good girl stuff we are so used to hearing.  Again it is not that people are questioning her character it is that they are doing so with the evidence set against them, and also that they are questioning parts of her behavior that are totally irrelevant to the case.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: "wantsanswers"
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?
 

some cable network interviewed one (in a casino) who was there with joran that night whose voice had not changed and would need a stool to reach the tables.   they need them local kids as a draw to attract the senoir trippers to get in there and compete against and fight with the locals challenging them on their own turf.  i bet it is a real loose operation   besides joran was 17 and 9 months something was he not?  they probably treat anybody coming in there to throw their money down a rathole deferentially and joran doesn't have to do anything to get a little extra deference becasue everybody wants to stay on the good side of a judge.  the night in question he was even under the adult supervision of his father.  

the mb kids at 18 are 3 years short of legal age in the us and i do not understand how what is not ok in the us suddenly becomes ok in aruba because it is "legal".   "legal" don't make it right.  our legal drinking age is obviously too high and i don't understand how we got there except that we are hypocrites because they drink anyway and then they are criminals unless they can afford a trip to aruba, cancun, juarez, nogales or Tijuana.


Does it meqn they deserve to be murdered?


of course not. who said that?   :oops:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 08:07:47 PM
The simple theory revisited. oddly the new releases from custody changes this at all.

Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy and his friends (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle with his friends (no idea what she knew)
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 08:08:35 PM
so the ugly guys who like to be rude have taken over and then gloat about running dash off.

Folks you are not aquitting yourself well.  

Surely I know nothing about that happened there--and most of you don't either.

You besmear the victim and her friends and defend the guys who for sure are lying at best.

Guess you are proud.

Sadly this case will be solved or get old and you will find some other little mystery to go after.  

Dash will live with this forever.

And some of us had hoped to be on this forum for discussion of current events forever.   Right now it is not a friendly place unless you are of the attack the victim school of thought.

I have said repeatedly that Joran and Natalee would have had much in common and I could understand her being attracted to him.  And him to her.

None of that justifies rape or murder it either occured.

Nat could have been the class slut--and it still would not justify rape or murder.

HER character is not relevant if she is the victim.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 08:09:04 PM
Quote from: "wantsanswers"
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


I would let the victims decide the fate of the criminal.


After the incompetence of the jurors on the OJ trial (DNA too complicated for them to digest), I came to the conclusion that justice would best be served if a jury consisted strictly of a panel of lawyers and judges well-versed and qualified to interpret the law.

I would keep the voir dire component of jury selection.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 26, 2005, 08:09:45 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


thank you


Totally agree, also live in a Mexican resort town (Pacific Coast)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 08:09:52 PM
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. He saidt the person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok, especially if drinking or if the friend possibly got "lucky" So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: SunnyinTX on June 26, 2005, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: "icey"
Joren is guilty in my book, why?


2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"  
icey

Icey...I think I can assure you without a doubt IF Joren has something like that to Beth Holloway...he would NOT be in prison right now....he'd be 6 feet under!  Where in the world did you hear that one!  Oh my goodness!!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 26, 2005, 08:10:41 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "wantsanswers"
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


I would let the victims decide the fate of the criminal.


After the incompetence of the jurors on the OJ trial (DNA too complicated for them to digest), I came to the conclusion that justice would best be served if a jury consisted strictly of a panel of lawyers and judges well-versed and qualified to interpret the law.

I would see keep the voir dire component of jury selection.


And I beleive that is basically how the Dutch system works.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 08:10:42 PM
Actually she did give us a lot of valuable info since she was on the trip.  Maybe you should try reading her posts, we learned a lot of what went on and what happened, a lot more than just the she was a good girl stuff we are so used to hearing.  Again it is not that people are questioning her character it is that they are doing so with the evidence set against them, and also that they are questioning parts of her behavior that are totally irrelevant to the case.[/quote]

Amen to that.  She did give us a lot of information and she did it willingly to support trying to figure out what happened.  Let's get real people...all you have to do is respect her and each other.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 08:11:37 PM
Quote from: "Another K in Texas"
so the ugly guys who like to be rude have taken over and then gloat about running dash off.

Folks you are not aquitting yourself well.  

Surely I know nothing about that happened there--and most of you don't either.

You besmear the victim and her friends and defend the guys who for sure are lying at best.

Guess you are proud.

Sadly this case will be solved or get old and you will find some other little mystery to go after.  

Dash will live with this forever.

And some of us had hoped to be on this forum for discussion of current events forever.   Right now it is not a friendly place unless you are of the attack the victim school of thought.


I have said repeatedly that Joran and Natalee would have had much in common and I could understand her being attracted to him.  And him to her.

None of that justifies rape or murder it either occured.

Nat could have been the class slut--and it still would not justify rape or murder.

HER character is not relevant if she is the victim.


Their is something that is well said.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 08:12:06 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
writenow wrote:

Quote
Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?



writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

I don't follow.  What does this have to do with dealing with other injustices in our back yard?  Are you saying you think the blog should take on all those other cases as well?  Isn't there a general news blog for that?  I thought this one was just about Natalee.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
The simple theory revisited. oddly the new releases from custody changes this at all.

Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy and his friends (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle with his friends (no idea what she knew)
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.


Good observation.  We are all back to square one.   We still have 3 suspects who have changed their story as many times, if not more.

And they're not talking...so there has to be someone else here...or else we need to admit these kids commited the perfect murder, and their first (as far as we know).


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 08:12:45 PM
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


Very well put!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 08:13:30 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


Ting,

What happened to the "we are not Arubans on one side and Americans on the other. We are all brother and sisters united in our mission to ensure justice where justice is due?" attitude of Arubans.

I do not assume that all Arubans think/act the same. Why is it that you seem to feel such blanket contempt for Americans because of isolated experiences w/ them in this forum.

Please do not allow yourself to be pushed to an extreme viewpoint at the opposite end of the spectrum of thought and consider yourself an objective contributer here.

I do, however, appreciate that you do possess and share a unique perspective regarding this case. It is not shared excluively by Arubans though.


That is an odd interpretation of my post, to say the least.

I have noticed some interesting and widely differing views from Americans themselves on the US justice system.

I sincerely regret if my curiosity to explore those views further displeases you.

I was unable to locate any reference to Arubans in my post, which adds even more interest to your reading of it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Microcephalic on June 26, 2005, 08:14:10 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.


Why is there neccessarily something "wrong" with this?  Joran calls Deepak and asks for a ride.  Joran starts walking.  Sends a text meesage 40 minutes later saying thanks for the ride (sic), I'm home now.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 08:14:42 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 08:14:49 PM
Quote from: "mordred"
 
Scott- Its not only in Aruba, In fact I usually insist that most of my friends (male & female) CALL me when they get home after we have been partying!!    I once got a scary call from a friend's mother asking me where he was after we had been partying all night & he drove home. Luckily, he was OK but you catch my drift?


In a previous post, I prefaced by saying, there would be no reasonable expectation for ANY guy to give his friend a courtesy call to let him know he got home alright, unless he was seriously hammered, and had to drive home drunk.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 08:14:53 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
I think it was very easy for many posters here to forget Dash was a kid, a teenager. She is articulate, smart and loyal (wonderful qualities). However, most of us on this board are adults who have been around the block a time or 2 and are old hats a message boards or blogs. We have grown thick skin, and can give as good as we get. That should never have been expected of Dash or MBHgirl ( sorry I know I have your name wrong). Not one of us would ever let another adult speak to our teenage child in a hateful manner. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.


Right, but at same time please read my opinion with open mind: people are hard on this joran for his attitude towards the hollaways that nite they visited him....he has the same passion that dash does "young and bold", we just don't know the facts in this case enough to know what has really transpired. I have gone back and forth on this kids guilt/innocence 4 times, and until I guess I heard all of the evidence that the prosecution has down there, I will never really know what side to sway to in his guilt.

But given the fact that I am used to our judicial system here in the usa, I have to be 100 percent convinced that he is guilty to believe that he did it.

My heart goes out to her family and I clearly want them to know that I feel so bad for her, they want answers as do we all, but at same time, until this kid confesses or evidence has been presented to prove he did it, I can not stick my neck out and say "HE KILLED HER"


I hear ya clevefan, and also agree. But, joran is being held as a suspect to several major crimes. Dash and her friends are not, they are not suspected of anything. joran is.
I agree, I am vacillating on what is happening here in this case. Just when I think I have a handle, something comes up that blows my theory out of the water. I would have to have beyond a reasonable doubt to convict anyone of anything. But that is not the issue, not yet. The US system does not ask us for 100% certainity a crime was committed, the bar actually is " a reasonable doubt " not any doubt. That is the law.  :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 08:15:07 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Tell me bout teen pressure, when I was 15 I walked in on my grandmother with a gun in her hand. Right before she took her life. Should I grab the gun or run for help….I ran…I still remember the look in her eyes..


wow...at 15 i don't know what I woud do


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:15:41 PM
Quote from: "Curiosity"
I have been gone for a couple of hours and all hell has broken out. I've only read the last seven pages...not the rest of the section I was posting on when I had to leave.....too many pages to catch up now.

Could someone please give me a quick summary of why Dash left and there are so many posts in defense of the VDS's?? Also any other news that has transpired in the last few hours would be appreciated. Thanks.


1. Steve Croes and Paulus van der Sloot released from jail/prison today.
2. Lots of Joran's & Kalpoe's friends and family on forum. They have been in abundance the last couple of days.
3. Read the last 7 pages of the last forum to get an idea why Dash is never coming back to post again. Number 2 group taking pot shots at her, MB kids and at Natalee.

but other than that, welcome!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 08:16:14 PM
Quote from: "Microcephalic"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.


Why is there neccessarily something "wrong" with this?  Joran calls Deepak and asks for a ride.  Joran starts walking.  Sends a text meesage 40 minutes later saying thanks for the ride (sic), I'm home now.


I've been off the board for a few hours....could someone direct me to where the reference to the email between Joran and Deepak came from?? Is this an offical email or a speculation? Thanks.

Edit....sorry text message, not email.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Frank on June 26, 2005, 08:17:18 PM
Dash provided extremely valuable insight because she was there. She was posting her perspective and opinions. She has some first hand knowledge, which most of us do not.

I'm appalled that she did not receive more compassion.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 08:17:37 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.
 

have to disagree with the every night. we don't know that.  he was there for some contest on the night in question and won 4th place.  any mb'sr in on that one?   maybe joran was doing the same thing the MBers were doing, letting their hair down after an intense year of study.  

maybe he was good at it, maybe they were letting him win to please the judge  we don't know how much he played for but there are so many casinos in aruba i seriously doubt that all the players are high stakes.  aruba is a low end destination for the most part.  that why they have to market to groups of kids, not your most desireable segment.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Charlotte on June 26, 2005, 08:17:43 PM
Article in Birmingham News this morning--Holloway's Friends often Blame Themselves
 " More than a month ago, before the fateful trip to Aruba from which Natalee Holloway still hasn't returned, a group of six Mt. Brook teenage girls put on matching silver wishbone necklaces, a sign of their lasting friendship.  "Natalee still has hers," Mallie Tucker said on Saturday, wearing her wishbone necklace along with a yellow ribbon and bracelets that show her support for her missing friend. "We just get together and pray" said Frances Ellen Bird, also wearing her wishbone necklace at a concert to raise money for Natalee's family.  "We can't wait for her to come home."  Byrd was at C & C the night Holloway disapeared.  "I never saw her when she left," said Byrd.  "It was closing time and everyone was leaving."  She said Natalee was with Joran as early as 9:30 pm the night of her disaperance before leaving with him after the bar closed at 1:00 am.  She said it was hard to keep track of all the 124 MBHS students as they left the bar.  "I don't blame anyone," said Byrd. " Alot of us feel personal guilt " said Milner Owens who was on the trip.  "People are trying not to re-live it.  I wish we had all done something.  We've all learned a lesson from this.  We've changed.  Life is altered.  Beau Barron, also on the trip remembers being at the bar with Holloway that night and wonders how it could have turned out differently.  "Its always in the back of everyone's mind."


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LilOrphan on June 26, 2005, 08:20:21 PM
Okay, I don't get the Aruban LE's move, and to me they seem either wholly inept or completely driven by the desires of the Holloway family. Can someone help me understand this better?

They take in the father on suspicion of kidnapping/murder, some very serious allegations.  48 hours later he is released because "they didn't have enough evidence" to continue to hold for suspicion.  One Aruban official states that it was a move to make the son speak out.  Now, is it just because the US does things differently that I see such a problem with this mentality?

They either took him in because they were bowing to pressure and bringing him in for false reasons-- in which case they acted unethically and damaged his reputation without cause -- or they brought him in too soon without building enough of a case against him and jeopardized their whole case, IMO.  Either way they look bad.

Quickly arresting and releasing him does not release him, or themselves, from suspicion.  Makes it greater, and is cruel to all parties involved. Now the Holloway family's hopes of a speedy resolution appear dashed and Mr. VdS may very well have suffered irrepairable harm for no good reason.

Do you think they confuse the American desire for resolution and closure with bloodthirst and a willingness to accept ANY person prosecuted, even if they're not guilty?  We don't want people dragged into jail without good case. That's not going to help anything. I truly don't get the Aruban LE.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scarlet on June 26, 2005, 08:20:25 PM
On behalf of an American if I made a comment on a foreigner, how I noticed they behaved on vacations I would be called prejudiced. (Even if I stated a fact.)  I think this is a problem of the youth not only "American" youth.  :cry:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KoG on June 26, 2005, 08:20:41 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "KoG"
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


Ting,

What happened to the "we are not Arubans on one side and Americans on the other. We are all brother and sisters united in our mission to ensure justice where justice is due?" attitude of Arubans.

I do not assume that all Arubans think/act the same. Why is it that you seem to feel such blanket contempt for Americans because of isolated experiences w/ them in this forum.

Please do not allow yourself to be pushed to an extreme viewpoint at the opposite end of the spectrum of thought and consider yourself an objective contributer here.

I do, however, appreciate that you do possess and share a unique perspective regarding this case. It is not shared excluively by Arubans though.


That is an odd interpretation of my post, to say the least.

I have noticed some interesting and widely differing views from Americans themselves on the US justice system.

I sincerely regret if my curiosity to explore those views further displeases you.

I was unable to locate any reference to Arubans in my post, which adds even more interest to your reading of it.


Ting,

please accept my apologies...upon looking back, I realized that I had replied to your statement after having streamed it together w/ a statement by another poster (statements were unrelated) in an attempt to read quickly and keep pace w/ the posting.

Second time that's happened to me this week...lol, I promise to be more diligent from now on.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 08:20:42 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?


All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 08:20:57 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.


what if deepak said to Joran when dropping him off.."hey bud, text message me when you get home, so I know you made it"


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:21:06 PM
Quote from: "Curiosity"

I've been off the board for a few hours....could someone direct me to where the reference to the email between Joran and Deepak came from?? Is this an offical email or a speculation? Thanks.

Edit....sorry text message, not email.


Info comes from Satish's lawyer.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: "Frank"
Dash provided extremely valuable insight because she was there. She was posting her perspective and opinions. She has some first hand knowledge, which most of us do not.

I'm appalled that she did not receive more compassion.


Compassion? This forum isn't about compassion, it is a theory and speculation forum where anyone can say anything no matter how unfounded it is.  It doesn't matter if you insult a victim with no credible evidence, because that is your opinion and all opinions are valid.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 08:21:55 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?


selling porn videos and drugs/x  ???


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Curiosity"

I've been off the board for a few hours....could someone direct me to where the reference to the email between Joran and Deepak came from?? Is this an offical email or a speculation? Thanks.

Edit....sorry text message, not email.


Info comes from Satish's lawyer.


Thank you, I appreciate the info.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sobelle on June 26, 2005, 08:23:01 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


There could be another meaning to "he made it home OK".  I'm trying to be delicate here an I'm in no way meaning to slur Natalee's reputation.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:23:23 PM
Quote from: "blfit"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?


All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


He was playing for about six days in a row that we know of, for hours on end. Again, WHERE IS THIS KID GETTING HIS MONEY? There's no way he's winning tons of money every night. NO WAY.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:24:21 PM
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 08:24:40 PM
Quote from: "Scarlet"
On behalfof an American if I made a commented on a foreigner, how I noticed they behaved on vacations I would be called prejudiced. (Even if I stated a fact.)  I think this is a problem of the youth not only "American" youth.  :cry:


scarlet, it is not a problem it is just how young people are in this globalized MTV world and the more money thay have the more thay can partake.    :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 08:25:24 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
looking back, I realized that I had replied to your statement after having streamed it together w/ a statement by another poster (statements were unrelated).


no problem, KoG, they come thick and fast and the reason I forced myself to learn to use the quote button is because I could never remember who said what and to whom I was actually replying!  :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 08:25:39 PM
Anna wrote:

Quote
I don't follow. What does this have to do with dealing with other injustices in our back yard? Are you saying you think the blog should take on all those other cases as well? Isn't there a general news blog for that? I thought this one was just about Natalee.


Watch the beginning 'Katya friend of Joran"!

That`s what I meant b/c some people have another opinion it doesn`t make them 'friends'with a supposed suspect! She only stated her opinion... Oh by the way I don`t know Katya also... :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 08:26:18 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?


All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


He was playing for about six days in a row that we know of, for hours on end. Again, WHERE IS THIS KID GETTING HIS MONEY? There's no way he's winning tons of money every night. NO WAY.[/quote

No offense....but I take it that you don't play poker.  He very well could have had enough money to "start" that first day and made some money...we don't know where he ended up...maybe he broke even.  I'm not debating his character here because to me that leaves little to be desired.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 08:26:41 PM
Quote from: "Microcephalic"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.


Why is there neccessarily something "wrong" with this?  Joran calls Deepak and asks for a ride.  Joran starts walking.  Sends a text meesage 40 minutes later saying thanks for the ride (sic), I'm home now.


guys aren't girls.........this was quoted before he read it and what he meant would be more normal would be if the guy at home was calling the guy walking checking on him, especially if walking guy had been drinking, or had a chance ( as my aw shucks nephew said) gettin lucky, Other than that why talk or text that time of morning. This is a 19 yr old's view not mine.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 08:26:46 PM
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.


what if deepak said to Joran when dropping him off.."hey bud, text message me when you get home, so I know you made it"


That's my question.  Why would any guy friend have reasonable concern to know that another guy friend made it home safely, in, of all places, Aruba (the nicer section of the island, at that)?

Obviously, there could well be other reasons explaining the intent of a text message or call.  I made the comment I did because it was suggested that Joran was contacting Deepak for the purpose of putting his mind at ease that he got home OK.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:28:27 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
After the incompetence of the jurors on the OJ trial (DNA too complicated for them to digest), I came to the conclusion that justice would best be served if a jury consisted strictly of a panel of lawyers and judges well-versed and qualified to interpret the law.

I would keep the voir dire component of jury selection.


Totally agree with you here, Scott.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 08:28:27 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?


how do we know he has no job? My 13 yr old umpires baseball games for 20.00 per game, and prior to that he had a paper route. Who's to say this kid doesn't get an allowence for chores? Also, if he is a good poker player, with the 10.00 buy in, he could easily make 150.00 in winning a tourney that consists of just a couple of tables full of people. He is very good in math according to his grades, and that could make him a very good poker player


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:28:45 PM
I always call my friend when I get home after I dropped her off and vice versa.

Don't know if guys do it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 08:29:02 PM
ARuba Girl


Your home is beautiful.  Such a lovely place.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: "katya"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "wantsanswers"
Quote from: "Ting"
I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.


I would let the victims decide the fate of the criminal.


After the incompetence of the jurors on the OJ trial (DNA too complicated for them to digest), I came to the conclusion that justice would best be served if a jury consisted strictly of a panel of lawyers and judges well-versed and qualified to interpret the law.

I would see keep the voir dire component of jury selection.


And I beleive that is basically how the Dutch system works.


My understanding is that, in the Dutch system, there's no jury, but one judge, alone, who renders a verdict.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KoG on June 26, 2005, 08:29:17 PM
Catriana,

I'd also like to apologize if you felt I attacked you. I thought DT was a moderator. Still, my comments towards him were not direct. {edit: this issue will not be discussed publicly.  READ YOUR PMs KoG.   Any further comments will be made there}


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 26, 2005, 08:29:53 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced

Thanks....great pictures!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ExTexinAZ on June 26, 2005, 08:30:13 PM
I just washed 6 of my son's shirts - all variances of blue and white plaids.
 :shock:

(collective laugh - I thought we needed one!)


Title: Drinking and gambling age enforcement in Aruba
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 08:30:33 PM
and I thought Iquitos was just being paranoid! All the student spring break/grad trip travel sites that were very informative about Aruba a week ago, suddenly do not send trips there!

So... from the travel info site of "Aruba Rentals" (Luxury Condo rentals) at http://www.arubarentals.com/vacationtips.htm

on their "Travel Tips for Aruba" info page:

Legal                Drinking/Gambling Age
             
The legal age for both drinking and gambling is 18 years of age, however, this law is not widely enforced.


http://www.arubarentals.com/vacationtips.htm[url]


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scarlet on June 26, 2005, 08:31:09 PM
Does anybody know if Geraldo will be sent packing tonight and Greta will be back for the week night? I found Geraldo to be totally insulting to Natalee's mother and step-father.  And who really cared about his sailing??

Geraldo is no Greta!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 08:31:11 PM
Quote from: "Charlotte"
Article in Birmingham News this morning--Holloway's Friends often Blame Themselves
 " More than a month ago, before the fateful trip to Aruba from which Natalee Holloway still hasn't returned, a group of six Mt. Brook teenage girls put on matching silver wishbone necklaces, a sign of their lasting friendship.  "Natalee still has hers," Mallie Tucker said on Saturday, wearing her wishbone necklace along with a yellow ribbon and bracelets that show her support for her missing friend. "We just get together and pray" said Frances Ellen Bird, also wearing her wishbone necklace at a concert to raise money for Natalee's family.  "We can't wait for her to come home."  Byrd was at C & C the night Holloway disapeared.  "I never saw her when she left," said Byrd.  "It was closing time and everyone was leaving."  She said Natalee was with Joran as early as 9:30 pm the night of her disaperance before leaving with him after the bar closed at 1:00 am.  She said it was hard to keep track of all the 124 MBHS students as they left the bar.  "I don't blame anyone," said Byrd. " Alot of us feel personal guilt " said Milner Owens who was on the trip.  "People are trying not to re-live it.  I wish we had all done something.  We've all learned a lesson from this.  We've changed.  Life is altered.  Beau Barron, also on the trip remembers being at the bar with Holloway that night and wonders how it could have turned out differently.  "Its always in the back of everyone's mind."



This is horrible for them, and only human for them to feel they could have done more. They were not dealing with elementary school kids here who will walk in single file. These were teenagers out to test normal limits. Living their lives, and a monster stepped in cutting one lovely life from the fold. I pray they find her and bring her home


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Shellbell on June 26, 2005, 08:31:59 PM
If he waived his right to not testify on his son, there must be enough evidence to where they will have a trial.  I figured the LE had done blown the case.  They have now ruined 4 peoples lives probably.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 08:32:08 PM
If it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 08:32:26 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
Catriana,

I'd also like to apologize if you felt I attacked you. I thought DT was a moderator.


What! When did you attack me?  I dont remember seeing anything directed at me earlier from you.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: boxopen on June 26, 2005, 08:32:44 PM
It's true that 3 other of Natalee's classmates died over the past year, 1 in a car accident and the other 2 by suicide?

PS - Don't blame me... the thread title is "Rumors"   :?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:33:00 PM
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scarlet on June 26, 2005, 08:33:08 PM
On second thought if they want to keep Geraldo they can. :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 08:33:38 PM
Quote from: "Charlotte"
Article in Birmingham News this morning--Holloway's Friends often Blame Themselves
 " More than a month ago, before the fateful trip to Aruba from which Natalee Holloway still hasn't returned, a group of six Mt. Brook teenage girls put on matching silver wishbone necklaces, a sign of their lasting friendship.  "Natalee still has hers," Mallie Tucker said on Saturday, wearing her wishbone necklace along with a yellow ribbon and bracelets that show her support for her missing friend. "We just get together and pray" said Frances Ellen Bird, also wearing her wishbone necklace at a concert to raise money for Natalee's family.  "We can't wait for her to come home."  Byrd was at C & C the night Holloway disapeared.  "I never saw her when she left," said Byrd.  "It was closing time and everyone was leaving."  She said Natalee was with Joran as early as 9:30 pm the night of her disaperance before leaving with him after the bar closed at 1:00 am.  She said it was hard to keep track of all the 124 MBHS students as they left the bar.  "I don't blame anyone," said Byrd. " Alot of us feel personal guilt " said Milner Owens who was on the trip.  "People are trying not to re-live it.  I wish we had all done something.  We've all learned a lesson from this.  We've changed.  Life is altered.  Beau Barron, also on the trip remembers being at the bar with Holloway that night and wonders how it could have turned out differently.  "Its always in the back of everyone's mind."


Charlotte, thank you for the post showing us just a glimpse of what it is like for Alana and Natalee's numerous friends.    My heart aches for all of them.  :(


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 08:33:41 PM
we're looking for the truth but you can't talk about this, that, or those....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:33:53 PM
Scarlet, no thanks. :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 08:33:59 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced
 

thanks aruba girl for the pics.  are you smog?  nice pic of mikkie dee parking area but thankfully we can scratch Paulus off the list of now.  i bet he will avoid that place from now on.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: icey on June 26, 2005, 08:34:04 PM
Why do people always try to deflect focus on a subject by trying to bring in every other evil or wrong doing as a reason why someone should not be so concerned? It's like we are trying to talk to a 3 year old child.

As a matter of fact I have done a lot about "justice in my backyard", with some of my effort resulting with individuals serving lenghtly jail terms for crimes they thought they "got away" with.

This board is focused on Natalee's disappearance and those who have incriminated themselfs. I don't care about any other crimes against humanity when it comes to the resolution of this case. This is the only case. Any watering down of focus will result in further disrespect of the victim and the possibilty that the criminals will go free.

icey



Quote from: "katya"
I don't mean to be argumentative, but if you are concerned about justice, there are countless  cases  of injustice in your own backyard. What are you doing about them?


Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?[/quote]

Katya, it is agreed that we have injustice and justice misplaced.  Whatever the instance you could likely find a blog or website making comments about them.  However, here the topic is Natalee.  If you would like to know what is being said about the other instances of "injustice in ..." our own backyard, please feel free to google a name.  It will take you to those forums.[/quote]


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 08:34:12 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced


Thanks Arubagirl for your hard work in taking these shots.

Do you know if they(LE) have thoroughly checked fishermans hut?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: cast on June 26, 2005, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


Thank you.

It was to my surprise that they (students and parents) would even be on any boards divulging selective info. A mature experienced poster would expect that you are going to get some good agreeable responses and some not so agreeable responses. Thats life. Thats people. Thats why we are all different.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:35:56 PM
inthepacifc, they did


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 08:36:00 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.


While Joran obviously frequented the casinos regularly, I doubt he was a high roller.

He seems genuinely ecstatic in one picture where he's holding up a mere $70.

Most likely, hanging around in the casino is an easy source of free drinks for these island kids.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 08:36:03 PM
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Zazzu on June 26, 2005, 08:36:28 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced

\
WOW.....thanks for the phots.....I've not been to the island in years....it's really grown.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 08:36:41 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.


I am a poker play, and believe me, you can get a bankroll built up if you are good


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 26, 2005, 08:36:59 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
The simple theory revisited. oddly the new releases from custody changes this at all.

Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy and his friends (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle with his friends (no idea what she knew)
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.


IMVHO absolut....with this information we can not say where the "guilt" lies.  Too many possibilities....swimming in ocean - drowned, kidnapped - still alive, kidnapped - murdered, accidental death (boy).....

So I don't think the "guilt logically falls" on anyone given this set of facts.  Evidence is needed.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 08:37:22 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced


Wow - Thank you arubagirl - I'm sure we'll be referring to these often while we post.  These are awesome.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: blfit on June 26, 2005, 08:37:33 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.


You know what...I was trying to be respectful of you and put it to you lightly...but I think you just like to argue.  I'm done for the night...I can't deal with people that can't accept other's opinions.  And like I said before...you know nothing about poker.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DAG on June 26, 2005, 08:37:50 PM
Quote from: "Another K in Texas"
ARuba Girl


Your home is beautiful.  Such a lovely place.


The pictures are great, thanks for taking the time to do this for us.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: simpleybad on June 26, 2005, 08:37:58 PM
It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"[/quote]<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.[/quote]

Does this indicate to anyone else that something happened that was out of his control?


Title: Re: Drinking and gambling age enforcement in Aruba
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 08:38:53 PM
Quote from: "coco"
and I thought Iquitos was just being paranoid! All the student spring break/grad trip travel sites that were very informative about Aruba a week ago, suddenly do not send trips there!

So... from the travel info site of "Aruba Rentals" (Luxury Condo rentals) at http://www.arubarentals.com/vacationtips.htm

on their "Travel Tips for Aruba" info page:

Legal                Drinking/Gambling Age
             
The legal age for both drinking and gambling is 18 years of age, however, this law is not widely enforced.


http://www.arubarentals.com/vacationtips.htm[url]


hmm ...   not widely enforced ...   why judge van der sloot should be ashamed of hisself


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 08:39:05 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.


what if deepak said to Joran when dropping him off.."hey bud, text message me when you get home, so I know you made it"


That's my question.  Why would any guy friend have reasonable concern to know that another guy friend made it home safely, in, of all places, Aruba (the nicer section of the island, at that)?

Obviously, there could well be other reasons explaining the intent of a text message or call.  I made the comment I did because it was suggested that Joran was contacting Deepak for the purpose of putting his mind at ease that he got home OK.


I think you are reading into this text message too much. I've got 2 boys. I don't find this alarming in anyway and could I could find my boys following the same sort of thing. NO biggy to me Scott.  :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 08:39:28 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced


Thank you! I actually put the 2 pics of the beach on my slide show screen saver. Those were very insightful. Dash said the Marriott looked close and was the distance was easily walked. I bet if Natalee did ride to the lighthouse on that dark road, she had to be scared to death. Note I said if.

Arubagirl---anything on the dump in Noord?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
how do we know he has no job?

it would have been mentioned by now. We know where Steve Croes works, we know where Deepak works. The press would have discovered where he worked if he had a job.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 08:40:07 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


oh yes it is, especially of todays kids


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inthepacific on June 26, 2005, 08:40:23 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


Maybe he thinks he's Tarzan, the monkey man!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 08:40:33 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
how do we know he has no job?

it would have been mentioned by now. We know where Steve Croes works, we know where Deepak works. The press would have discovered where he worked if he had a job.


I'll buy that as a good point. Thanks.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 08:41:11 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
Catriana,

I'd also like to apologize if you felt I attacked you. I thought DT was a moderator. Still, my comments towards him were not direct. {edit: this issue will not be discussed publicly.  READ YOUR PMs KoG.   Any further comments will be made there}


KoG...  READ YOUR PMs, PLEASE.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.


I am good, but don't play much.

Just at a family game christmas--and we had a five dollar buy in--I had 63 dollars in about 90 minutes.  We were playing Texas Holdem.

Poker is a little different than some of the other games and if you know "when to hold and when to fold" it really is not hard to slowly make money.

I am a poker play, and believe me, you can get a bankroll built up if you are good


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 08:42:39 PM
Quote
Does this indicate to anyone else that something happened that was out of his control?


As a matter of fact, it does. And that he is upset about the something.

It sounds more like the way one teen would respond to another, as opposed to an older person.

I can't claim to know how Joran normally interacted with adults, maybe that is how he is accustomed to address the parents of his friends and acquaintances, or it could be an indication that emotional stress caused him to forego courtesy.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:43:19 PM
Didn't go to Noord, there was a political rally, and the traffic was stuck.

For some reasons all political parties decided to have an event today.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LilOrphan on June 26, 2005, 08:43:33 PM
Arubagirl thank you so much for your dedication and work! Great pics.  Now if there's any worries about security in the future, just suggest that LE post their cops up on those big things where the reporters are. One on every corner, with camera!  <j/K> :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Charlotte on June 26, 2005, 08:43:43 PM
Quote from: "boxopen"
It's true that 3 other of Natalee's classmates died over the past year, 1 in a car accident and the other 2 by suicide?

PS - Don't blame me... the thread title is "Rumors"   :?


This is correct.  One senior boy died a couple of months ago in a one car accident.  (alcohol involved).  A sophmore girl hung herself--unknown if it was accidental or suicide.  A junior girl also hung herself--this one was a suicide- she left a goodbye letter.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: icey on June 26, 2005, 08:43:49 PM
I have not heard BT say this, but my wife contends that she did in an interview about 3 weeks ago. Perhaps it was taken out of context, but if true, it's probably one of the reasons why BT believes jvds is guilty of something. Perhaps I can look thru the videos on-line.

icey


Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 08:43:50 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
how do we know he has no job?

it would have been mentioned by now. We know where Steve Croes works, we know where Deepak works. The press would have discovered where he worked if he had a job.


you don't know that, heck we don't even truely know if he went to school next day


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KoG on June 26, 2005, 08:43:55 PM
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "KoG"
Catriana,

I'd also like to apologize if you felt I attacked you. I thought DT was a moderator.


What! When did you attack me?  I dont remember seeing anything directed at me earlier from you.


READ YOUR PMs, KoG.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 08:44:17 PM
I like the "opinions"and speculations here. On the otherhand while I`m new to this blogs... Maybe i`m too sensitive about it all. I`m not used to this so maybe I sound defending or something, but I still am behind my opinion, but I sense some 'executing'style of bashing people... correct me if I`m wrong I`m only dutch and not used to slender people who i`m not certain of IF the commit a crime, certainly if I see no evidence for that effect. I`m not used to this 'mediacircus'also which most of the people here are used to b/c I understand it`s common in the US if a case is importent or has 'good'rates for the channel. So let me suck it in for a while , but I honestly don`t think that I ever going to like this media and people bashing thing. But I am certainly glad that I`ve found this blog b/c it`s a new way of state your opinions for what i`ve  seen I kinda like that fact.


And don`t get me wrong my heart is to see see natalee found safe and if the ones who are in jail are guilty, they must pay, but if they don`t are guilty , or only by stupidity thru lying then the court , the media and the folks here that thinks or feel they did it b/c 'they feel it' must let go and accept that fact, I hope and think!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 08:44:35 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
how do we know he has no job?

it would have been mentioned by now. We know where Steve Croes works, we know where Deepak works. The press would have discovered where he worked if he had a job.


you don't know that, heck we don't even truely know if he went to school next day, he's a minor


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 08:44:59 PM
Quote from: "blfit"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.


You know what...I was trying to be respectful of you and put it to you lightly...but I think you just like to argue.  I'm done for the night...I can't deal with people that can't accept other's opinions.  And like I said before...you know nothing about poker.
 

now, to know somebody spent 15-30 hours in a casino somebody else had to be there too.  i have said it before, you can't have it both ways, logging joran's time at the tables.  why were the mb people focusing so on joran.  they fought with him, the formed opinions about him and hea had not even done anything yet.   were they jealous?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 08:46:20 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
how do we know he has no job?

it would have been mentioned by now. We know where Steve Croes works, we know where Deepak works. The press would have discovered where he worked if he had a job.


you don't know that, heck we don't even truely know if he went to school next day


Greta reported that Joren did go to school in her timeline. I also have to agree with the original post....everyone else's employer seems to have surfaced with the press...why would't Joren's employer if he had one?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Frank on June 26, 2005, 08:46:33 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
we're looking for the truth but you can't talk about this, that, or those....


Then just absorb what you like, and discard that which you do not.  No need to challenge or attach those with whom you disagree.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Rosalie on June 26, 2005, 08:46:47 PM
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "coco"
Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.


Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!


Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.


You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.


You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?


selling porn videos and drugs/x  ???


Joran is supposed to be a darn good poker player. I doubt that he would have any problem having someone there front him some money for a % back. The casinos might WANT him there to interest other young players to join the game.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 08:47:12 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
you don't know that, heck we don't even truely know if he went to school next day


Yes we do - and yes he was there.  However, Satish was not.

Please don't ask where this came from, as it is O-L-D information...but it is in another thread on this forum.  Maybe if you do a search, you'll have some luck.

I don't know how Joran could have a job - he was an A student, he was involved in sports, and he was in the casinos constantly.  He barely had time to maintain all those websites he was on.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ExTexinAZ on June 26, 2005, 08:48:12 PM
I keep going back to J's statement "I didn't hurt her".  It bothers me for some reason.  Or it could be another one of his lies.  Any speculations?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 08:48:16 PM
Joran was graduating.  In this country at least the custom is to give gifts and many people give cash.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 08:48:30 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "KoG"
Catriana,

I'd also like to apologize if you felt I attacked you. I thought DT was a moderator.


This has been hashed out.  Please stop REPOSTING it in quotes.


I think I know what you are referring to now.  I made a sarcastic post about compassion not belonging on this forum a few pages back.  Is that what you were referring to?  If so then I think we have a misunderstanding.  I was in no way saying their shouldnt be compassion on this board, the opposite actually.  Believe me I have been defending Natalee and her friends and family since day one, and I am appaled by some of the treatment they have received on this board and elsewhere.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:49:17 PM
My allowance was $60 a month at that age. Maybe he also got one.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 26, 2005, 08:49:52 PM
arubagirl, just looked at your pic's.............beautiful! And thanks!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 08:49:56 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced


great pics, thanks.   It is still beautiful.  I will need to find out which timeshares exchange with the clubs I belong to.  Maybe some day.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 08:51:26 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
If it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger


wwizard, I can't imagine. That had to make you stronger that is for sure.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 08:52:42 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.

I am appalled at the people who defend the irresponsible, hateful, cruel and heartless actions of people like that.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DAG on June 26, 2005, 08:52:50 PM
Quote
He barely had time to maintain all those websites he was on.


Pinemeadows, thanks for that comment.  I needed that "humor" right about now.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 08:52:54 PM
ArubaGirl - these photos are awesome! thank you so much!

There seems to be a lot of development on the island - is this a new development?

Also, you mention the political parties all being out today - is there an election coming up?


and finally, can we all come visit - I could use that beach view right about now!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 08:54:00 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "HannieC"

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.

I am appalled at the people who defend the irresponsible, hateful, cruel and heartless actions of people like that.


It is more than just that.  They lied and incriminated other people who they knew were innocent.  I just dont see that happening unless they had something to hide.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KoG on June 26, 2005, 08:55:38 PM
KOG.. READ YOUR PMs.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 08:56:45 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Didn't go to Noord, there was a political rally, and the traffic was stuck.

For some reasons all political parties decided to have an event today.


OK thanks. I just wondered if the Texas group had been to the dump/pond yet? Thanks again for those photos. Simply marvelous, dahling!  8)


Title: joan's pics
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 08:57:39 PM
about the pictures, the one of joran pretending to strangle (ugh) someone and  the one with the cash.   that looks like school play stuff to me.  BTW on the night in question he was playing in a texas holdem contest, won 4th place.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: scared-tom on June 26, 2005, 08:57:43 PM
Folks

This discussion board is taking a turn for the worse in tone. I am goign to make this post short and sweet , and expand on it later.

Please be polite and respectful to the moderators and your fellow posters.

That is all I demand, but that is something I absolutely demand.

Tom


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "blfit"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.


You know what...I was trying to be respectful of you and put it to you lightly...but I think you just like to argue.  I'm done for the night...I can't deal with people that can't accept other's opinions.  And like I said before...you know nothing about poker.
 

now, to know somebody spent 15-30 hours in a casino somebody else had to be there too.  i have said it before, you can't have it both ways, logging joran's time at the tables.  why were the mb people focusing so on joran.  they fought with him, the formed opinions about him and hea had not even done anything yet.   were they jealous?


Probably an obnoxious jerk


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 08:57:49 PM
Hannie!

Welcome to the our world - not very pretty is it? hyperbole and rants take the place of reasoned thought all too easily - and asking questions when the party line has been decided is not well received.

I think the heat is particularly high today because the judge released S. Croes and PVDS - and there are a lot of people who were convinced that they were the devil incarnate - or at least drug lord white slavers. Their release threatens the "we know precisely what happened" view and makes people who are holding on to that certainty distressed.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:57:50 PM
Coco, in three months there is going to be an election, where twelve parties are going to be vying to be the biggest party. Those are going to be three looooong months.

I think all parties had an event today because campaigning season started officially on Thursday.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 08:59:18 PM
Hannie C, something I learned being on this board is "geduld is a schone deugd". (Patience is a virtue)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 26, 2005, 08:59:31 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced


Hey ag...thanks so much for the pics.  Helps so much to be able to picture things.  And while the fisherman's Hut beach is fairly close to the HI....I find it really hard to believe the area could be seen from the HI at night.


Title: Joran's Psych. TX
Post by: LouLou on June 26, 2005, 09:00:00 PM
This is because according to the article in De Telegraaf, Joran has been seing a psychiatrist for some time now because he is short-tempered.

http://www.hasibokos.com/hbknews/default.asp?view=day&blogDate=6/11/2005

Don't you guys think this is even a little interesting?  Seriously, from a mostly lurker, some of your arguments are getting older than dirt (how much money does it take to pley poker in Aruba, who insulted who, why dash left, blah, blah, blah).  

Face it...by now you are just arguing with one other person that will never be pursuaded to your side so give the rest of us a chance.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Angiex911dsptchr on June 26, 2005, 09:00:14 PM
trying to catch up.. thank you s mch for the photos.. they are awesome!!!!
AND thank you for the time that you have spent on this forum keeping is up to date and taking out your own personal time to take the pics!!!
HUGS to you!!!!!!!   :wink:


Title: Witness but afraid to come forward?
Post by: Florida_mom on June 26, 2005, 09:00:16 PM
Something for everyone to think about:

The Aruban justice system can arrest people on just the slightest bit of suspicion without any real evidence, so, is it possible that there could be witness(es) that saw something the night of Natelees' disapearance but are afraid to come forward for fear of being involved and for fear being arrested?  I find it so strange that there is not a single witness!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 09:00:49 PM
Some of the theories posted are a little more far-fetched than others.  It seems that people think they are all equally valid since there is little supporting hard evidence for any of them.

However - there are probabilities.  

If Natalee disappered at her hotel - strong possibility someone from MB is involved.  

If Natalee disappeared on snorkeling trip - strong possibilty people on snorkel trip are involved.  

If Natalee disappeared while in a car with Joran, Deepak and Satish - strong possibility they are involved.  

If a child is missing - look for a pedophile

If an elderly person is missing - presume they have Alzeimer's and wandered off

If a woman is missing - husband/boyfriend is top suspect

If a woman on a date is missing - date is the top suspect.  

If anyone missing, last person to see them alive is the top suspect.  

That is why Joran is the most likely person to implicate in this case.  The other theories have less credence.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sobelle on June 26, 2005, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I like the "opinions"and speculations here. On the otherhand while I`m new to this blogs... Maybe i`m too sensitive about it all. I`m not used to this so maybe I sound defending or something, but I still am behind my opinion, but I sense some 'executing'style of bashing people... correct me if I`m wrong I`m only dutch and not used to slender people who i`m not certain of IF the commit a crime, certainly if I see no evidence for that effect. I`m not used to this 'mediacircus'also which most of the people here are used to b/c I understand it`s common in the US if a case is importent or has 'good'rates for the channel. So let me suck it in for a while , but I honestly don`t think that I ever going to like this media and people bashing thing. But I am certainly glad that I`ve found this blog b/c it`s a new way of state your opinions for what i`ve  seen I kinda like that fact.

And don`t get me wrong my heart is to see see natalee found safe and if the ones who are in jail are guilty, they must pay, but if they don`t are guilty , or only by stupidity thru lying then the court , the media and the folks here that thinks or feel they did it b/c 'they feel it' must let go and accept that fact, I hope and think!


I agree with you yet again HannieC.   :)   You said it better than I ever could.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 09:02:02 PM
ArubaGirl - wow. twelve parties!!!

Are any of them using the Natalee case in their campaigning - law&order statements or don't bow to US stuff or any of that?

I could easily see this becoming a factor in elections if it were here - are you seeing any sign there?


and I noticed you didn't confirm my reservation for a beachside visit! :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:02:37 PM
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "Zazzu"
Quote from: "Tiptoes"
Quote

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.


With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.


Very well put!
<<

Not only were very irrelevant and unkind remarks made about Natalee but abut the MBH students themselves.  They did not give enough interviews to MSM because they were covering up and hiding something really sinister.  They all said the same thing because they were covering up and hiding something sinister.  They said different things because they were covering up somethint sinister.  There is no way to deal with that sort of irrationality, it is just bashing.

I think you are making some very broad-sweeping generalities with your comments concerning AMERICAN tourists for I can assure you that ALL of them I have seen, regardless of their point of origin, behave very differently and sometimes very badly on vactation.  We have lots of them in this area, too, and some have been total jerks and were from other countries.  Imagine that  :!:

And just like the previous posters who felt a need to cast aspersions on the kids along on the trip, you seem to have already decided the answers to your own questions and do not really care to hear that none of that happened.  Yes, indeedy, we are ALL in agreement that those things do not mean one is a bad person if one behaves badly on a trip but that still does not make it so and does mean any of the things some so desperately want to hear happened, happened at all.

Fitting the demographic just doesn't cut it for you were not there.  Dash was and we have lost the source for the information some claimed to want to know.  Well, that is what they claimed but it was pretty obvious that they did not really want to know what happened on the trip but rather wanted to hear only their own version of what they THOUGHT MIGHT could have possibly happened, given vacation, etc. validated.  Nothing less would do and over and over we have to hear how there is nothing wrong with blah, blah, blah that ALL the kids say never happened.  

So if it did not happen, why dwell on it?  Why keep insisting on and on and on that it did or that it was likely to have done so because you just happen to know the type, see it all the time.  They have to a man said it did not happen so what part of that do you not understand??  And why on earth would you think anyone would rather have your opinion over facts from  someone on the trip?  While it may have been her opinion, it was one that had insight no one else has.

Well, I know a few types myself and there is a type who will just not listen, who thinks he knows beforehand and has such a prejudical need to have his own beliefs confirmed and validated that nothing short will do.  Dash should not have to deal with that sort of person but she was the one with the information and the answers and unless you can replace that information, I would think your opinions are not as valuable as her actual knowledge.  I find it amazing that you feel that they are and you are entitled to make the judgment for the entire blog that SHE should not be on here when actual facts are so very hard to find in this tragedy.

I would much rather have her information than your pure speculation based on what you perceive as typical behavior for that is just your own opinion and has nothing whatsoever to do with this trip on which Natalee disappeared.

Are you seriously suggesting that Dash's knowledge should be replaced with your "demographics" and speculation?  Doesn't work for me, sorry.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 09:02:50 PM
Quote from: "Sobelle"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I like the "opinions"and speculations here. On the otherhand while I`m new to this blogs... Maybe i`m too sensitive about it all. I`m not used to this so maybe I sound defending or something, but I still am behind my opinion, but I sense some 'executing'style of bashing people... correct me if I`m wrong I`m only dutch and not used to slender people who i`m not certain of IF the commit a crime, certainly if I see no evidence for that effect. I`m not used to this 'mediacircus'also which most of the people here are used to b/c I understand it`s common in the US if a case is importent or has 'good'rates for the channel. So let me suck it in for a while , but I honestly don`t think that I ever going to like this media and people bashing thing. But I am certainly glad that I`ve found this blog b/c it`s a new way of state your opinions for what i`ve  seen I kinda like that fact.

And don`t get me wrong my heart is to see see natalee found safe and if the ones who are in jail are guilty, they must pay, but if they don`t are guilty , or only by stupidity thru lying then the court , the media and the folks here that thinks or feel they did it b/c 'they feel it' must let go and accept that fact, I hope and think!


I agree with you yet again HannieC.   :)   You said it better than I ever could.


Just check out what the dectectives are saying


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KoG on June 26, 2005, 09:02:58 PM
Quote from: "coco"
Hannie!

Welcome to the our world - not very pretty is it? hyperbole and rants take the place of reasoned thought all too easily - and asking questions when the party line has been decided is not well received.

I think the heat is particularly high today because the judge released S. Croes and PVDS - and there are a lot of people who were convinced that they were the devil incarnate - or at least drug lord white slavers. Their release threatens the "we know precisely what happened" view and makes people who are holding on to that certainty distressed.


Much of what you say is true, but, what is still not known is:

PVDS & Croes release = apparent non-guilt  --OR--
PVDS & Croes release = failures by Aruban LE to collect enough evidence on those that have true implication in Nat's disappearance


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:03:20 PM
Could someone who is on the ground in Aruba please direct Geraldo to a reputable wigmaker?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 09:03:31 PM
Quote
writenow wrote:
HannieC wrote:

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.



I know what you mean writenow, but on the otherhand, if I hear JUG the come with that whole bunch of friends in the middle of the night! I saw jug and his statements by the way, so I can surely understand why people are react this way if they are sound asleep an suddenly in the middle of the night there are a bunch of people at your door commending and seems threatning you think; What the f###! Sure I understand it I would do the same if my daughter was missing you`re absolutly right maybe i would do something other than that also( hey I`m dutch) But I sure can understand what the reaction of people can be for that affect, And don`t forget JUG says on tv that Joran said to his dad"I want to help dad"!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: "arrabba"
Some of the theories posted are a little more far-fetched than others.  It seems that people think they are all equally valid since there is little supporting hard evidence for any of them.




If an elderly person is missing - presume they have Alzeimer's and wandered off

 
.


No need to get personal there, ya young whipper snapper!!!!!   :(


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Getagrip on June 26, 2005, 09:04:10 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "Anna"
he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.


That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?


No but I'll bet he is the only one who is 6' 3" or more.


Do you think he received preferential treatment because he is tall?


No I think got in cause he is tall the same way he did at 17 and 0 months and maybe even 16.

Sorry for replying to an relatively 'old' post, but I don't think I'll get through reading the rest. Joran is most likely not the only 6'5" teenager on the island. Dutch people are the tallest on average in the world. If I'm wrong, go ahead and correct me - I was informed of this by Dutch friends.

As a matter of fact, even the mixed people in Aruba are taller than average, if you have noticed from the TV appearances.

The reason I'm saying I may don't think I'll make it through the rest is that I can't believe what's happening on this message board. Dash may not be the only person who is run off the board.  It's like people are dividing into camps of I win/you lose, I'm right/you're wrong. People, put things in perspective here. I like absolut's simple theory - it brings us back to the original reason we're here: Natalee Holloway is missing and quite possibly dead.

I'm going to keep reading Tom and Red's blog reports, but it gets tiring and draining to see people bashing and attacking each other, seemingly for ego or self-aggrandizing purposes.

Happy monkey'ing everyone. Take it easy on the moderators - it's a thankless job and they are doing a fabulous job of giving each and everyone of you the opportunity to voice your opinions.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 09:04:22 PM
Just check out what the dectectives are saying

what detectives?  the ones from the States?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:04:27 PM
Coco, they're not using NH blatantly yet, more criticizing the current government for statements that they made to the press.

But not like: "An American girl disappeard, throw this government out."

I'd be appalled if they used her for political purposes, but I wouldn't put it pass them

Not much is being said about American citizens in general, but a LOT about American press.

That reservation will only be made if there is a room for me too :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:06:27 PM
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


oh yes it is, especially of todays kids


Speak for yourself.  Mine certainly do NOT behave in this manner, especially to an adult female.  For one thing, they know they could never get away with it but that was never a problem for Joren, apparently.  I have one 6'3" and he would show respect for the girl's mother or wish that he had.  And wish it deeply.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 09:06:37 PM
Quote from: "RB"
Just check out what the dectectives are saying

what detectives?  the ones from the States?


it was in the aruba paper on on this board a while back.. I am  not going back to look


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 09:07:11 PM
The reason I'm saying I may don't think I'll make it through the rest is that I can't believe what's happening on this message board. Dash may not be the only person who is run off the board. It's like people are dividing into camps of I win/you lose, I'm right/you're wrong. People, put things in perspective here. I like absolut's simple theory - it brings us back to the original reason we're here: Natalee Holloway is missing and quite possibly dead.

I'm going to keep reading Tom and Red's blog reports, but it gets tiring and draining to see people bashing and attacking each other, seemingly for ego or self-aggrandizing purposes.


It does get tiring and draining, however most folks here, whether on one side or the other, do mean well and do want this case to be solved.  I think if there's little more focus on agreeing to disagree, things would be far better.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 09:08:18 PM
thank you! .


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: AZLady on June 26, 2005, 09:08:20 PM
When I read the news report that Paulus was released and had waived his right to not testify against his son, I was at first pleased because I concluded this meant that progress was made in the case.  My question concerns Aruban law.  Does Aruban law allow for bargaining (for lack of a the correct or better word)?   I only am familiar with American law, so I inferred from the announcement of his release that Paulus had struck a "deal" with the prosecutor to wave his right to not testify in exchange for his release.  Is this incorrect?  In my opinion, this would be a step in the right direction for Law Enforcement.  This testimony, which must be truthful and supported by the facts and forensic evidence, could likely be significant in the case.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Lausa on June 26, 2005, 09:08:40 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Could someone who is on the ground in Aruba please direct Geraldo to a reputable wigmaker?
heeeeeeeee, chortle


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:08:52 PM
Quote from: "Getagrip"
Dutch people are the tallest on average in the world. If I'm wrong, go ahead and correct me - I was informed of this by Dutch friends.


Batten down the avatars!

You are in for it for sure now, and God help you if there are any Masai lurking around. :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "arrabba"
Some of the theories posted are a little more far-fetched than others.  It seems that people think they are all equally valid since there is little supporting hard evidence for any of them.




If an elderly person is missing - presume they have Alzeimer's and wandered off

 
.


No need to get personal there, ya young whipper snapper!!!!!   :(


My apologies   (written big in case your eyesight is going)

 :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:09:59 PM
Quote from: "icey"
I have not heard BT say this, but my wife contends that she did in an interview about 3 weeks ago. Perhaps it was taken out of context, but if true, it's probably one of the reasons why BT believes jvds is guilty of something. Perhaps I can look thru the videos on-line.

icey


Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.
<<

BHT has said it several times and Jug was standing right there and yet is supposed to just tolerate this.  Seems in keeping with the rests of his lifestyle and the different parenting techniques.  But if I allowed my son to behave like this to adults, I would also not wonder why he required anger management classes and kicked his brothers, etc.  Doing so in front of his parents unrestricted.  Oh, no, just your typical 17 year old, no special treatment going on with Joren.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 09:10:23 PM
OK, hate to do this, but...can someone give me a brief synopsis on the latest news?  

I heard earlier that PVDS waived his right NOT to testify against JVS, and that Croes will be let go tomorrow.  Anything else new?

THANK YOU!  I really would try to go back and read, but man...two small children...dinner...bath...bed time...you get the drill.  NO TIME!

K


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 09:10:25 PM
ArubaGirl - that's good to hear (about not using the case as of now)

I imagine the US press are a pretty weird experience! I know that folks here in the states comment about how awful it is to have them camped out on a big case.

Are the hotels like the HI and Marriot booked mostly with press these days do you think?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: goon squad on June 26, 2005, 09:11:13 PM
<<I know what you mean writenow, but on the otherhand, if I hear JUG come with that whole bunch of friends in the middle of the night!>>

Do you think that if Jug and his friends hadn't stopped by in the middle of the night, then Joran and the Kalpoes would have told the truth?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wvlady on June 26, 2005, 09:12:07 PM
Dash-
If you're still reading comments, I'm truly sorry that some people have run you off... :(


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: "goon squad"
Do you think that if Jug and his friends hadn't stopped by in the middle of the night, then Joran and the Kalpoes would have told the truth?


We don't know that they have, or that they have not.


Title: Just the fax ma'am
Post by: Compananzi on June 26, 2005, 09:14:52 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "HannieC"

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.

I am appalled at the people who defend the irresponsible, hateful, cruel and heartless actions of people like that.


Not to intrude but they all went to Holiday Inn, why did they go to Holiday Inn Again? I know at one point they went to the casino, with Paulus looking for Joran, then Joran called said he was home, they all went home right?  I am missing the second part of going to the casino againg what for?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:15:25 PM
Coco, I'm guessing that they're mostly in the Holiday Inn, since there is where the family is also staying.

As I was taking pictures at the lighthouse, there were two groups of people with very professional cameras taking footage. I said 'good afternoon' and they looked a bit spooked like I had caught them doing something bad. Had to laugh at that.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 09:15:46 PM
Quote from: "KoG"
Quote from: "coco"
Hannie!

Welcome to the our world - not very pretty is it? hyperbole and rants take the place of reasoned thought all too easily - and asking questions when the party line has been decided is not well received.

I think the heat is particularly high today because the judge released S. Croes and PVDS - and there are a lot of people who were convinced that they were the devil incarnate - or at least drug lord white slavers. Their release threatens the "we know precisely what happened" view and makes people who are holding on to that certainty distressed.


Much of what you say is true, but, what is still not known is:

PVDS & Croes release = apparent non-guilt  --OR--
PVDS & Croes release = failures by Aruban LE to collect enough evidence on those that have true implication in Nat's disappearance


Did LE not state Pvds was taken to jail only to put pressure on Joran...why would LE lie...2 days is not  "pressure" really either!!  IMO


Title: Read this article
Post by: southerngal on June 26, 2005, 09:16:06 PM
Read this article if you are a friend of Natalie’s.
"The Rothchilds of the Mafia on Aruba" (http://www.tni.org/archives/tblick/aruba.htm)
It details information about the Aruban government relations with the Mafia...gives some enlightening information about the powerful Mansur family who controls 60% of the island and owns a shipping company as well as other industries on the island.  I would also Google Mansur and Aruba as well as the Mafia and Aruba. When the brother of the FBI agent said this case was much bigger than people were aware of, he wasn't kidding. Who was the guy on the plane sitting next to Natalie who did not use his return ticket...There is most likely a lot more to this case than Aruba wants you to know about...
See also this article(http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/undocs/session67/view883


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 09:16:12 PM
don't know how significant it is, however,  as more and more people come up with rumors, accusations etc.  the topic becomes more and more heated.  

The issue worth noting is that BHT has not varied her request since the very beginning.  "They (meaning the boys in custody) hold the key" and "give me my daughter and I'll go home>"

I am not sure I have even heard her say that the boys are lying.  I may be wrong.  I know reporters and other ask her that question and she merely replies that the boys need to tell the truth and that they have the key.

This has not varied since she arrived.  We on the other hand have stretched the imagination until we have been drawn into a "black hole."  It is difficult to close out the day and begin anew.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: littletxlady on June 26, 2005, 09:16:22 PM
What has happened to the theories????? Have we moved to a lower rung and decided this blog is for arguing ?
 sorry....I guess we are all frustrated   :(


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 26, 2005, 09:16:23 PM
ArubaGirl,

1) how many huts are there at the Fisherman's Huts?  

2) do people still stay in them or are they abandoned?  

3) Could we see the Tattoo in the shot from FH to HI?

4) Are all of the huts separated from the Marriott by the trees?

Thanks!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:16:28 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "blfit"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "blfit"
All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.


No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

lone blue plaid shirt and premature balding.  No, he did not have a thing on any one of them to be jealous of that I can see, quite the contrary.  I suspect Joren could smell a dollar a mile away.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "goon squad"
Do you think that if Jug and his friends hadn't stopped by in the middle of the night, then Joran and the Kalpoes would have told the truth?


We don't know that they have, or that they have not.


Yes, we do.  If the police decided to detain them, they have not.  If they would get 2 versions of the same story, they may wonder about the 3rd.  But 3arlier this week, it was said by either Ruben or Rudy that they were each giving different stories...or something to that effect.


Title: Re: joan's pics
Post by: Compananzi on June 26, 2005, 09:17:41 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
about the pictures, the one of joran pretending to strangle (ugh) someone and  the one with the cash.   that looks like school play stuff to me.  BTW on the night in question he was playing in a texas holdem contest, won 4th place.


Actuall I read it to be very plausible an reenactment of the pictures at that time of Abu Garib, prisoner treatment of the insurgent/combatants.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 09:17:47 PM
Quote from: "arrabba"
Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "arrabba"
Some of the theories posted are a little more far-fetched than others.  It seems that people think they are all equally valid since there is little supporting hard evidence for any of them.




If an elderly person is missing - presume they have Alzeimer's and wandered off

 
.


No need to get personal there, ya young whipper snapper!!!!!   :(






My apologies   (written big in case your eyesight is going)

 :lol:
:D  :D  :D  :D  :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: AZLady on June 26, 2005, 09:17:54 PM
Quote from: "goon squad"
Do you think that if Jug and his friends hadn't stopped by in the middle of the night, then Joran and the Kalpoes would have told the truth?


You're question appears to imply that Jug and his friends convinced Joran and the Kalpoes to lie.  Am I interpreting this correctly?  I don't think that fear of Jug and his friends would convince these three people to lie to the police in a murder investigation.  Their motivation for telling lies is unknown, but I believe with a certainty that it was not fear of Jug and his friends.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:18:13 PM
Quote
There is most likely a lot more to this case than Aruba wants you to know about


There may be more to this case than a long list of countries, US included, wants you to know about.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 09:18:25 PM
I think we need to get ArubaGirl press credentials ...
and she could scoop all those MSM types with their hotshot cameras!

honestly - your pics give me the clearest sense yet of the locations we've been talking about!


Title: Re: joan's pics
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
about the pictures, the one of joran pretending to strangle (ugh) someone and  the one with the cash.   that looks like school play stuff to me.  BTW on the night in question he was playing in a texas holdem contest, won 4th place.
<<

And his own mother said he said he was "going to kick natalee's butt" so does he have violent tendencies other than kicking his brothers?  Fantasies about choking people?  Odd poses, lots of them.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Onnimus on June 26, 2005, 09:19:29 PM
I just want to say that the photos Arubagirl took are SO gorgeous....Aruba is such a beautiful island especially the beaches and the water. WOW. I've been to several Caribbean islands and I have every intention of visiting Aruba for a beach trip. So pretty!  :!:

I pray for Natelee's family that a resolution will come quickly. Of course, I pray for a happy one, but I would hate to this case go cold and for nothing to ever be found...I feel so bad for Amy Bradley's parents and all the many other parents of missing children who never have the peace of knowing what happened to them and bringing them home.  :(


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: littletxlady on June 26, 2005, 09:19:42 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote
There is most likely a lot more to this case than Aruba wants you to know about


There may be more to this case than a long list of countries, US included, wants you to know about.


My thoughts exactly


Title: ESPECIALLY FOR DASH
Post by: Lausa on June 26, 2005, 09:19:44 PM
Dear Dash,
Should you by chance still be reading, I hope you can see how much you are valued by many Monkeys.  So much trauma for all.  I know your friends will all help each other through this.  Sorry you got overloaded.  One important thing to remember about grown-ups is that they aren't perfect.  You've had an in-your-face chance to see that and I know it hurts. Please know that many people have come to care deeply about all of you.  You've been a splendid representative for  MBHS and Natalee Holloway.

Later I can't wait to seee Arubagirl's pictures.  But I am going to  put aside the computer,read the New York Times and make sure the rest of the world is still turning 'round.


Title: Re: Just the fax ma'am
Post by: mehill10 on June 26, 2005, 09:19:51 PM
Quote from: "Compananzi"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "HannieC"

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.

I am appalled at the people who defend the irresponsible, hateful, cruel and heartless actions of people like that.


Not to intrude but they all went to Holiday Inn, why did they go to Holiday Inn Again? I know at one point they went to the casino, with Paulus looking for Joran, then Joran called said he was home, they all went home right?  I am missing the second part of going to the casino againg what for?



dutch bag and slime brothers  show where thay droped natelee to her parents   I thinks i remember that right


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Catriana on June 26, 2005, 09:20:21 PM
IMPORTANT MESSAGE to ALL POSTERS!

If an Administrator needs to send you information regarding issues here, they will sent those to you via PM (Private Messages).

PLEASE CHECK YOUR MESSAGES REGULARLY for Admin PMs.

Thank you
.

Now back to our regular scheduled program.... !


Title: hey all
Post by: momto5 on June 26, 2005, 09:21:30 PM
I just got home a bit ago from picking up my son from his dads house, and having a sweet sixteen party somewhere in between for my oldest girl. Seems I always am away or on the road when something happens.
So, in trying to catch up with the news and posts I take it Mr VDS and Steve C were released or will be released soon right? Any other news? Unfortunately I dont have access to a TV to watch any news updates as my children and husband have taken over all 4 TVs in the house  :roll:
Any updates and such would be much appreciated.
Thanks!  :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: landscaper on June 26, 2005, 09:21:42 PM
Quote from: "arrabba"
Some of the theories posted are a little more far-fetched than others.  It seems that people think they are all equally valid since there is little supporting hard evidence for any of them.

However - there are probabilities.  

...

If anyone missing, last person to see them alive is the top suspect.  

That is why Joran is the most likely person to implicate in this case.  The other theories have less credence.


Many of the first-hand accounts indicate that Natalee was seen leaving C&C in a car with three people.  Do we know with certainty that Natalee was left in the company of one (or two) of the three (as opposed to all three) after leaving C&C?  If not, then Joran is not necessarily the most likely person to implicate.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:22:36 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
If the police decided to detain them, they have not..


Not necessarily. With so few facts, we can only speculate why anyone has been detained.


 
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
different stories....


And any could be true, or not true.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 09:22:51 PM
Guys and gals sorry i`m not holding up with the speed you are going...jeezzz you are fast..... :lol:


Coco thanks, I like the fact that you seem to be open minded.....
arubagirl thanks for your effort to take all the picturec( wich I don`t have seen yet but they are in my favorites.!!)

sobelle thanks for also being open minded, it`s very nice to see that a lot of people here still have an open mind...

Scott you also think with your mind a lot i see ...

And iquitos your`re a sweaty I don`t know you but you give also a lot of input,,,,


And the rest also.... I like the fact that all the opinions are made with compassion wich side does`nt mather it is not about sides here it`s about Natalee bringing home!...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 09:23:04 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


oh yes it is, especially of todays kids


Speak for yourself.  Mine certainly do NOT behave in this manner, especially to an adult female.  For one thing, they know they could never get away with it but that was never a problem for Joren, apparently.  I have one 6'3" and he would show respect for the girl's mother or wish that he had.  And wish it deeply.


exactly! I have said this before, my son would not have to worry about hitting himself on the chest, because I would be doing it for him if he spoke to the parents of a missing girl he was last seen with, no matter what time of day they came to the house. T is 6'2" and 205 lbs, I brought him this world, and as the old saying goes, I can take him out........or at least make his life miserable for a few minutes until he came clean. If he was involved in something bad, he would have to face it, I would see that he faced up to it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LexingtonProf on June 26, 2005, 09:23:53 PM
Quote from: "wvlady"
Dash-
If you're still reading comments, I'm truly sorry that some people have run you off... :(



I agree with WVLADY and ANNA. Losing Dash is a huge negative for this forum ... even if many are in denial of this fact.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:24:41 PM
Luna, There is one more building similar to the picture that I took. They're not really used for people to stay in them, just for fishermans to store their gear etc. About the seperation from Marriott, to a car they are seperated by the Marriott wall, so you'd have to drive past the marriott completely, and take the next left. The beach is not really seperated from Marriott by anything, if you wanted to, you could walk from Marriott until Phoenix (first highrise hotel). No, you can't see Tattoo, it's moored at the Aruba Grand hotel, which is the third hotel rise I believe, and Marriott is the last.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 09:24:55 PM
Hi monkey friends


Walked the dog , could not resist thinking about the natalee case

some questions,

1) was there a statement from the MB hig scholars that most of them spent  a good deal of their last night at the beach near the mariot ?)
or is the beach near the Mariott occupied by other people at night aswell.

2) Is the mariot beach on the east or  the west side of the island ?

3)  Who was the last person who natalee spoke to before leaving C&C

4) why would Joran sent a message saying he is walking home was he  expected to be picked up by one of the kalpoe brothers.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wantsanswers on June 26, 2005, 09:26:32 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Guys and gals sorry i`m not holding up with the speed you are going...jeezzz you are fast..... :lol:


Coco thanks, I like the fact that you seem to be open minded.....
arubagirl thanks for your effort to take all the picturec( wich I don`t have seen yet but they are in my favorites.!!)

sobelle thanks for also being open minded, it`s very nice to see that a lot of people here still have an open mind...

Scott you also think with your mind a lot i see ...

And iquitos your`re a sweaty I don`t know you but you give also a lot of input,,,,


And the rest also.... I like the fact that all the opinions are made with compassion wich side does`nt mather it is not about sides here it`s about Natalee bringing home!...


we don't want to be in your little group anyway


Title: Re: Just the fax ma'am
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 09:27:08 PM
Quote from: "Compananzi"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "HannieC"

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.

I am appalled at the people who defend the irresponsible, hateful, cruel and heartless actions of people like that.


Not to intrude but they all went to Holiday Inn, why did they go to Holiday Inn Again? I know at one point they went to the casino, with Paulus looking for Joran, then Joran called said he was home, they all went home right?  I am missing the second part of going to the casino againg what for?


joran, deepak and parents went back to HI that same night/morning the Twitty's first went to the VdS's home so joran could show them where they "dropped" Natalee off ( lie 1). As a matter of fact, daddy VdS was made to leave the lobby because he became so obnoxious and loud


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 09:27:19 PM
Hi anna ,

I hate to admit it but , lots of teeners have bad manners in my opinion , well that was my vision of them when i lived in Amsterdam in 1998

Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


oh yes it is, especially of todays kids


Speak for yourself.  Mine certainly do NOT behave in this manner, especially to an adult female.  For one thing, they know they could never get away with it but that was never a problem for Joren, apparently.  I have one 6'3" and he would show respect for the girl's mother or wish that he had.  And wish it deeply.


exactly! I have said this before, my son would not have to worry about hitting himself on the chest, because I would be doing it for him if he spoke to the parents of a missing girl he was last seen with, no matter what time of day they came to the house. T is 6'2" and 205 lbs, I brought him this world, and as the old saying goes, I can take him out........or at least make his life miserable for a few minutes until he came clean. If he was involved in something bad, he would have to face it, I would see that he faced up to it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:28:06 PM
Bendex, the Fisherman's Huts beach as well as the beach in front of Marriott are both on the West side of the island.

I often go driving there with my friends late at night after the movies / going out and there aren't many cars there. The local 'lover's lane' is mostly at Eagle Beach, which is about 2 miles before reaching Marriott.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: goon squad on June 26, 2005, 09:29:12 PM
<<You're question appears to imply that Jug and his friends convinced Joran and the Kalpoes to lie. Am I interpreting this correctly?>>

I think the three detainees decided to tell a story that ended with a Holiday Inn dropoff, and they would have done so whether or not the VDS residence was visited by Jug Twitty, Conway Twitty, or Scritti Politti.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 26, 2005, 09:29:32 PM
Thanks arubagirl....just trying to get the lay of the land!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:29:35 PM
So did Deepak and Satish voluntarily go to where they knew Natlaee's family would be?

Or did they just happen to be there when the family arrived and freely acknowledge that Natalee had been in their car?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:32:37 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "goon squad"
Do you think that if Jug and his friends hadn't stopped by in the middle of the night, then Joran and the Kalpoes would have told the truth?


We don't know that they have, or that they have not.
<<

We do know they have changed their story three times so I would say that we do know and they did not for this is when they claimed to have taken her to the HI, something they themselves now refute.  So I think we pretty well know they have not told the truth.  As to whether or not the current version is true or not, in American law if a witness is caught lying about one thing, the entire testimony may be considered susepct and juries may take that into consideration and reject it.

I have no way of knowing if there is similar consideration in Dutch law but this is how many of us have been trained to thing about people who lie in life and death situations.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 09:33:10 PM
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 09:34:22 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Quote
writenow wrote:
HannieC wrote:

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.



I know what you mean writenow, but on the otherhand, if I hear JUG the come with that whole bunch of friends in the middle of the night! I saw jug and his statements by the way, so I can surely understand why people are react this way if they are sound asleep an suddenly in the middle of the night there are a bunch of people at your door commending and seems threatning you think; What the f###! Sure I understand it I would do the same if my daughter was missing you`re absolutly right maybe i would do something other than that also( hey I`m dutch) But I sure can understand what the reaction of people can be for that affect, And don`t forget JUG says on tv that Joran said to his dad"I want to help dad"!


And Hannie. How did Joran HELP her parents? By lying to them and DELIBERATELY taking them to the wrong place.
A parent gets very frantic when they think their child is in danger. Why can't you understand that? You think having someone yell at you in the middle of the night is WORSE than fearing your daughter is injured or dead????

You're right. This must be a cultural thing. Because I can not for the life of me understand feeling it's more upsetting to be "yelled at" than to have a daughter missing in a foreign country.

Natalee said to her friends as she left CnCs she wanted to go back to the HI. Joran manuevered her into his friends' car and didn't take her back to the HI. What does that tell you?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dudley on June 26, 2005, 09:34:53 PM
Arubagirl - Fabulous fotos. Look like postcards to me.  Maybe I missed it but what is being built across from C&C?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 09:35:30 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


 my thoughts too


Title: Re: joan's pics
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:36:06 PM
Quote from: "Compananzi"
Quote from: "iquitos"
about the pictures, the one of joran pretending to strangle (ugh) someone and  the one with the cash.   that looks like school play stuff to me.  BTW on the night in question he was playing in a texas holdem contest, won 4th place.


Actuall I read it to be very plausible an reenactment of the pictures at that time of Abu Garib, prisoner treatment of the insurgent/combatants.
<<

Ah, that's it.  Bet your're right, the little chap is just making a political statement.  And pushing the kid through the plate glass, was that yet another interpretation of some current event as well?   :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 09:36:18 PM
Hey Arubagirl,
Looked for you today...hoping for the Monkey "Shout Out"! Thanks for all your hard work on the photos though!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 09:36:22 PM
Ting - I think only Deepak was at Joran's house when they talked to the Twitty's.

I'm a bit confused by the accounts since BTH said Joran was rude but Jug said Joran wanted to talk but Paulus and Deepak were telling him not to. I believe Jug said in a Fox interview that Joran said "I want to help" and also that he wanted to help search.

That led me to take the comment to BTH about "what do you want me to do" as a bit of desperation - since by I think Jug's account Joran went over to the car where Beth was sitting after the exchange about "don't talk" - and that he was saying sorta - I wanna help but my dad and best friend are telling me to be quiet, what do you want me to do? I can easily see how that would sound to Beth given her terror  but I also think that so much of what we hear "said" in this case depends on very different states of mind amongst the parties when they heard the things said.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:36:46 PM
Dudley, an ugly hotel. Idiot politicians


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:36:54 PM
Quote
in American law if a witness is caught lying about one thing, the entire testimony may be considered susepct and juries may take that into consideration and reject it.


So by that reasoning, any and all stories they tell you could reject as lies.

But you cannot know whether any of them are true. You may have an opinion, in fact that is what this discussion is about :)

Maybe you believe that story B is true, and someone else just has a hunch about story C, but neither of you can know for sure!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 09:38:06 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
So did Deepak and Satish voluntarily go to where they knew Natlaee's family would be?

Or did they just happen to be there when the family arrived and freely acknowledge that Natalee had been in their car?


The Twitty's came to joran's home, he was not there, dad said he was at casino, they drive to casino--joran not there, Twitty's go back to VdS's house, joran and deepak leaning against deepaks car. When asked if they had seen Natalee they began the first lie of dropping her off at HI. I suspect dad called joran and told him Americans were looking for him, so joran and deepak had time to get themselves together before Twitty's got back. If the boys had not done something wrong, why did they come up with a story at ALL, even before the Twitty's came to the island. This is one of my biggest problems with this case right now.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 09:38:07 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
I hate to admit it but , lots of teeners have bad manners in my opinion , well that was my vision of them when i lived in Amsterdam in 1998


Teenagers have bad manners when their parents don't teach them to have good manners.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 09:38:30 PM
Dang, ya’ll are fast, I’m a two finger peck typer


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arrabba on June 26, 2005, 09:38:35 PM
Quote from: "landscaper"
Quote from: "arrabba"
Some of the theories posted are a little more far-fetched than others.  It seems that people think they are all equally valid since there is little supporting hard evidence for any of them.

However - there are probabilities.  

...

If anyone missing, last person to see them alive is the top suspect.  

That is why Joran is the most likely person to implicate in this case.  The other theories have less credence.


Many of the first-hand accounts indicate that Natalee was seen leaving C&C in a car with three people.  Do we know with certainty that Natalee was left in the company of one (or two) of the three (as opposed to all three) after leaving C&C?  If not, then Joran is not necessarily the most likely person to implicate.


At this time, Joran, Deepak and Satish all agree that Joran and Natalee were dropped off alone together at the beach near the Marriott.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 09:38:50 PM
wantanwers wrote:

Quote
we don't want to be in your little group anyway
[/b]


Excuse me if I`m wrong here.............but what group? The people who have there own opinion which you don`t like? Sorry I find this very disturbing you make it very personel now b/c other people have there own opinion......


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Cerulean on June 26, 2005, 09:39:06 PM
Release of Paulus Van Der Sloot looks political.  Don't feel like holding one of their own in a jail cell?  And if Steve Croes lied to the police, why can't he be charged with that?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: landscaper on June 26, 2005, 09:39:16 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


If they did do to an underground party, how do Joran's attempts to contact Deepak (2:30am call, 3:15 text msg) fit in with that theory?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 09:39:21 PM
They are about to interview two friends on Fox in just a few minutes.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tila_Bean on June 26, 2005, 09:40:03 PM
Do we know who these two friends are going to be on Fox?  Re-run perhaps?  Sorry I was caught up in the Food Network! :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: AZLady on June 26, 2005, 09:40:05 PM
Now that you've read the articles provided about the Aruban economy, turn your attention to even larger issues, narcotics funded terrorism:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/NarcsFundedTerrs_Extrems.pdf

Yes, this is a bigger problem than first imagined.


Title: Re: Joran's Psych. TX
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 09:40:20 PM
Quote from: "LouLou"
This is because according to the article in De Telegraaf, Joran has been seing a psychiatrist for some time now because he is short-tempered.

http://www.hasibokos.com/hbknews/default.asp?view=day&blogDate=6/11/2005

Don't you guys think this is even a little interesting?  Seriously, from a mostly lurker, some of your arguments are getting older than dirt (how much money does it take to pley poker in Aruba, who insulted who, why dash left, blah, blah, blah).  

Face it...by now you are just arguing with one other person that will never be pursuaded to your side so give the rest of us a chance.
 

editorial:  somebody said the art of politics is knowing how to talk in a way that convinces people who do not agree with you.  few are good at that.  mostly we are comfortable with the ones who agree with us.  Politicians nowadays concentrate on holding the base and trying to draw the few undecideds and the fringes from the other side.  Rarely do they actually go after the middle of the other side.  Too risky.  That phenomenon is magnified on a board such as this and nobody wants to back down until one side or the other walks away.  personally, i have often felt like walking away from here.  yesterday morning was particularly oppressive and i am sure i contributed to it.  the poker analogy fits perfectly, when to hold and when to fold.  nither point of view has been adept at that.  However, we keep saying people have gone away mad only to see them reappear for a another day of lively debate.  I hope the offended will be back.  the lines are drawn on this one however and i don't think one point of view or the other can expect converts from among the active participants.  They participate because they have strongly held views to express.  Without them there would be no posters.  But maybe we are helping some of the non posters understand the issues better.  

Question:  Does anybody have the whole telegraaf article in Dutch?  I tried the link but it is a whole page and type is too small to read and i don't feel like registering.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:41:17 PM
Quote from: "coco"
Ting - I think only Deepak was at Joran's house when they talked to the Twitty's.

I'm a bit confused by the accounts .


LOL I am a bit confused by them too. What I am trying to get straight on is that neither Deepak nor Satish were "fingered" by anybody, nor seen on cameras with Natalee, so the first knowledge that the family had of Natalee being in their car came from Deepak himself.

I think it has already been established that no one actually saw her in the car with them, there are reports that she was seen in a gray blue Honda but that did not come out until the family had already been in Aruba for a while.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 09:41:41 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
wantanwers wrote:

Quote
we don't want to be in your little group anyway
[/b]


Excuse me if I`m wrong here.............but what group? The people who have there own opinion which you don`t like? Sorry I find this very disturbing you make it very personel now b/c other people have there own opinion......

Hannie, I think it was a joke or sarcasm, about your post with the compliments to specific posters. I don't think there was anything bad meant. At least that was the way I took it. :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 09:41:54 PM
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Do we know who these two friends are going to be on Fox?  Re-run perhaps?  Sorry I was caught up in the Food Network! :lol:


The Food Network!  One of my favs, along with the cable news. :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 09:42:54 PM
New interview with two friends/aunt on fox now.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 26, 2005, 09:43:57 PM
Lots of you claim that "we know they (3 boys) have changed their story 2 times" we do not know that for a fact. We have heard from the authorities that the 3 boys have changed their story, there has been non statement of how many or to the extent to which their stories have changed. Antyhing else is pure conjecture. I am seeing lots of convicting these 3 boiys for chaging their story. I dont know about you but kids do BEND the truth. I can see where Joran didn't want to go into exactly what he and NH did that night on the beach(if they did n anything at all). But from my perspective kids are kids, while we can debate as to what level to hold them accountable for changing their story, convicting them of murder is a STRETCH.
 One side can theorize that the boys didi not know for fact that NH is dead but just missing, and then the other side theorizes that they knew she is dead. Both are just that THEORIES.
 And in my opinion if you disagree with someone then you aren't trying to run them off the site. I have yet to see anything really terrible on the boards this afternoon. I have seen some scarcastic remarks, which I think were warranted when the news came out about the releases of the 2 men. One person said maybe they ought to go round up mrs. VDS and intimidate her into submission. The justice system is VASTLY different from Aruba compared to the USA.  NONE of these 5 would be in-custody at the moment in America. And all of you know that to be true. mayeb the police would have held Joran a few days but at this point even he would probably be let go. And Purposely arresting the Dad to put pressure on a 17 yr old boy is something that i dont agree with. If this had been doen to say a Terrorist you can be gauranteed the MSM would be calling for the current administrations heads. So lets keep this in perspective....Do you honestly think a 17 yr boy could hold out for almost 2 weeks of intensive interrogations, with the threat of exposing his father and possibly every friend he had?

GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 09:44:11 PM
Quote from: "landscaper"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


If they did do to an underground party, how do Joran's attempts to contact Deepak (2:30am call, 3:15 text msg) fit in with that theory?


landscaper, you're right.  Let me try again:

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Now what do the 3 guys do?  Yikes.  They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tila_Bean on June 26, 2005, 09:44:40 PM
Quote from: "RB"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Do we know who these two friends are going to be on Fox?  Re-run perhaps?  Sorry I was caught up in the Food Network! :lol:


The Food Network!  One of my favs, along with the cable news. :)


LOL, same here.  They are going to announce who will get their own food pilot show tonight LIVE!  (If you've been following) :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ExTexinAZ on June 26, 2005, 09:44:46 PM
KackyLacky, I couldn't agree more.  I also have one about that same size, 17 yrs. old.  If I visited him in the jail and he told me, in tears, that he didn't have anything to do with her disappearance and that when "all the truth comes out" that he's going to "kick her butt for causing us all this trouble" (or something like that) (which he'd better not say!), I would be telling him, in no uncertain terms, that he obviously knows what happened and he'd better come clean!  If he saw her being kidnapped and his life was being threatened, I would tell him we would move Heaven and earth to protect him, but he needs to tell the truth.  If we need to move to Outer Mongolia to protect him, we would, but he has to tell what he knows.  I'm so hoping the kidnapping story is true.  I would so much prefer that scenario, as I think does Beth.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Cerulean on June 26, 2005, 09:45:00 PM
"Underground Party"  Sunday night, school night, small island with 100,000 people on it, International School as 9 kids in a class.  Not likely, and if it was people would have known about it and the kids would have squealed already.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 09:45:36 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote
in American law if a witness is caught lying about one thing, the entire testimony may be considered susepct and juries may take that into consideration and reject it.


So by that reasoning, any and all stories they tell you could reject as lies.

But you cannot know whether any of them are true. You may have an opinion, in fact that is what this discussion is about :)

Maybe you believe that story B is true, and someone else just has a hunch about story C, but neither of you can know for sure!
 

whateva but can you imagine this bunch of monkies on a jury!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Ting on June 26, 2005, 09:46:20 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
The Twitty's came to joran's home, he was not there, dad said he was at casino, they drive to casino--joran not there, Twitty's go back to VdS's house, joran and deepak leaning against deepaks car. When asked if they had seen Natalee they began the first lie of dropping her off at HI. I suspect dad called joran and told him Americans were looking for him, so joran and deepak had time to get themselves together before Twitty's got back..


Deepak and Satish also had time to get themselves together, go WHOA! in unison, and remove themselves from the situation entirely, catch a boat or a plane to parts unknown, paint the car, push it off a cliff, burn it, whatever it would take NOT to acknowledge that Natalee was ever in their car at all.

In fact, I would expect someone who had participated in a violent crime to go to extreme measures to avoid the scenario you describe.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 09:46:30 PM
writenow wrote:


Quote
And Hannie. How did Joran HELP her parents? By lying to them and DELIBERATELY taking them to the wrong place.
A parent gets very frantic when they think their child is in danger. Why can't you understand that? You think having someone yell at you in the middle of the night is WORSE than fearing your daughter is injured or dead????

You're right. This must be a cultural thing. Because I can not for the life of me understand feeling it's more upsetting to be "yelled at" than to have a daughter missing in a foreign country.

Natalee said to her friends as she left CnCs she wanted to go back to the HI. Joran manuevered her into his friends' car and didn't take her back to the HI. What does that tell you?



Maybe writenow but I`m sure as **** I don`t blame somebody if I see no evidence, that must be a "cultural"thing then if you would like to think so.
I have an open mind about everything b/c we are not a jury or a judge or the executioner, we`re here about speculation, opinions an theory`s I thougth, but then again I could be wrong b/c I`m not used to blogs, if i`m offend you`in any way i`m sorry for that it`s not my intende to do so.. :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: momto5 on June 26, 2005, 09:47:11 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "landscaper"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


If they did do to an underground party, how do Joran's attempts to contact Deepak (2:30am call, 3:15 text msg) fit in with that theory?


landscaper, you're right.  Let me try again:

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Now what do the 3 guys do?  Yikes.  They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?

Hi dallas,
The only thing I can see that might not fit here is IF joran did call deepak and tell him he was home at what was it 3:40 after leaving her at the beach. Dont after hour parties generally last longer?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 09:47:42 PM
Quote from: "landscaper"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


If they did do to an underground party, how do Joran's attempts to contact Deepak (2:30am call, 3:15 text msg) fit in with that theory?


good point....
wwizard first posted she was gone from aua within an hour...
wopuld that be 2;30?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 09:47:59 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Lots of you claim that "we know they (3 boys) have changed their story 2 times"

 So lets keep this in perspective....Do you honestly think a 17 yr boy could hold out for almost 2 weeks of intensive interrogations, with the threat of exposing his father and possibly every friend he had?

GuyWdog


yes I do....  I do know of many youth and adults who have never admitted to crimes.  It is unfortunate but true that many proclaim there innocence even after being convicted.  Under the Dutch system, I have no idea how they handle this.  Or even if they can convict.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 09:48:10 PM
whateva but can you imagine this bunch of monkies on a jury!

We'd be hung jury monkeys :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:48:20 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


oh yes it is, especially of todays kids


Speak for yourself.  Mine certainly do NOT behave in this manner, especially to an adult female.  For one thing, they know they could never get away with it but that was never a problem for Joren, apparently.  I have one 6'3" and he would show respect for the girl's mother or wish that he had.  And wish it deeply.


exactly! I have said this before, my son would not have to worry about hitting himself on the chest, because I would be doing it for him if he spoke to the parents of a missing girl he was last seen with, no matter what time of day they came to the house. T is 6'2" and 205 lbs, I brought him this world, and as the old saying goes, I can take him out........or at least make his life miserable for a few minutes until he came clean. If he was involved in something bad, he would have to face it, I would see that he faced up to it.
<<

Ain't it the truth!!  And mine know it.  No anger management for them, I can manage their anger.  Parents should have some modicum of control over their minor children so I can only assume the VDS approve of this kind of behavior.

 My next fav slogan is eat it or wear it, too! Bet you have used that one a time or two as well, am I right??   We what raises boys has to hang tough sometime but I can honestly say none of mine have ever disrespected me or any adult in my presence.  And will not and live to tell about it.  You go, girlfriend.  Some of us know wrong when we see it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 09:48:30 PM
Quote from: "Cerulean"
Release of Paulus Van Der Sloot looks political.  Don't feel like holding one of their own in a jail cell?  And if Steve Croes lied to the police, why can't he be charged with that?


Somebody lied - in fact, they are all lying (yes, we know this because the stories keep changing.)  Steve - I don't know how they can justify releasing him.

Who knows about PVDS....the whole world knows he has allowed sonny to gamble and drink, and pops is the escort.   Yesterday he was suspected of complicity in premediatated murder (it doesn't get much more serious than that) - and today he's a free man?  How does that happen overnight?

So yes, it could be political, or it could be SIMILAR to a plea bargain...there may be more pressure on Joran with his release, than with him in there.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Dang, ya’ll are fast, I’m a two finger peck typer


Mr Wizard,
With the latest develeopments, are you still standing by your original theory?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Angiex911dsptchr on June 26, 2005, 09:50:07 PM
trying to get caught up here.. Whats up with Dash? Did she get pissed off for some reason and it not posting anymore????


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 09:50:15 PM
So do the VDS' go on the Abrams report on MSNBC to put their story out?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Lacey on June 26, 2005, 09:50:17 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
wantanwers wrote:

Quote
we don't want to be in your little group anyway
[/b]


Excuse me if I`m wrong here.............but what group? The people who have there own opinion which you don`t like? Sorry I find this very disturbing you make it very personel now b/c other people have there
own opinion......


HannieC,
I dont post much as you can see..lol
I just sit back and read ALL the FACTS
CAN I be in your little GROUP...lol  :wink:  :wink:  :wink:


Title: Re: Joran's Psych. TX
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 09:51:04 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Question:  Does anybody have the whole telegraaf article in Dutch?  I tried the link but it is a whole page and type is too small to read and i don't feel like registering.


Copy and paste the text into an e-mail or Word document and increase the font size.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 09:51:29 PM
HannieC,
I dont post much as you can see..lol
I just sit back and read ALL the FACTS
CAN I be in your little GROUP...lol  

Absolutely :)  Welcome!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 09:52:08 PM
Angie,
I do know that some posters accused her mother of just seeking notoriety for Dash? That one shocked me....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 09:52:36 PM
Quote from: "Ting"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
The Twitty's came to joran's home, he was not there, dad said he was at casino, they drive to casino--joran not there, Twitty's go back to VdS's house, joran and deepak leaning against deepaks car. When asked if they had seen Natalee they began the first lie of dropping her off at HI. I suspect dad called joran and told him Americans were looking for him, so joran and deepak had time to get themselves together before Twitty's got back..


Deepak and Satish also had time to get themselves together, go WHOA! in unison, and remove themselves from the situation entirely, catch a boat or a plane to parts unknown, paint the car, push it off a cliff, burn it, whatever it would take NOT to acknowledge that Natalee was ever in their car at all.

In fact, I would expect someone who had participated in a violent crime to go to extreme measures to avoid the scenario you describe.


Ting I couldn't agree more. Exactly what one would think. Or simply deny. But they didn't. They implicated 2 innocent men, and continued the lie. What if she could have been found one way or the other in the days they were lying to LE? The bros kalpoe even told a variation of the lie to their mother. WHY?  This is the problem for them, the lies.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: tarmand on June 26, 2005, 09:52:57 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Lots of you claim that "we know they (3 boys) have changed their story 2 times" we do not know that for a fact. We have heard from the authorities that the 3 boys have changed their story, there has been non statement of how many or to the extent to which their stories have changed. Antyhing else is pure conjecture. I am seeing lots of convicting these 3 boiys for chaging their story. I dont know about you but kids do BEND the truth. I can see where Joran didn't want to go into exactly what he and NH did that night on the beach(if they did n anything at all). But from my perspective kids are kids, while we can debate as to what level to hold them accountable for changing their story, convicting them of murder is a STRETCH.
 One side can theorize that the boys didi not know for fact that NH is dead but just missing, and then the other side theorizes that they knew she is dead. Both are just that THEORIES.
 And in my opinion if you disagree with someone then you aren't trying to run them off the site. I have yet to see anything really terrible on the boards this afternoon. I have seen some scarcastic remarks, which I think were warranted when the news came out about the releases of the 2 men. One person said maybe they ought to go round up mrs. VDS and intimidate her into submission. The justice system is VASTLY different from Aruba compared to the USA.  NONE of these 5 would be in-custody at the moment in America. And all of you know that to be true. mayeb the police would have held Joran a few days but at this point even he would probably be let go. And Purposely arresting the Dad to put pressure on a 17 yr old boy is something that i dont agree with. If this had been doen to say a Terrorist you can be gauranteed the MSM would be calling for the current administrations heads. So lets keep this in perspective....Do you honestly think a 17 yr boy could hold out for almost 2 weeks of intensive interrogations, with the threat of exposing his father and possibly every friend he had?

GuyWdog




Bravo!  Well said GuyWdog.  I'd also like to address the "let's boycott Aruba" factor that has been brought up before.  If tourists boycotted America because of unsolved crimes, I'm afraid we'd never have any tourists.  I am so sorry that Natalee is missing and I pray for her safe return, but from what I can tell, this all happened because a teenager made a bad decision.  We can not blame Aruba for that.  If Natalee had left a bar in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Los Angeles, etc. with a boy that she had just met, the same thing could have happened in the U.S. and I'm sure it does all of the time.  Again, this is nothing against Natalee.  I've made the same mistake several times in life.....even at the age of 27.  I was lucky and nothing happened to me but it could have and it would be no reason to blame the entire country.  We should blame the individuals responsible for whatever happened to Natalee and not focus on hurting the entire population of Aruba.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 09:53:00 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "wwizard"
Dang, ya’ll are fast, I’m a two finger peck typer


Mr Wizard,
With the latest develeopments, are you still standing by your original theory?


Kerin!!!! I was going to ask for a repost...could keep the nite interesting.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 09:53:31 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Mr Wizard,
With the latest develeopments, are you still standing by your original theory?


Kerin - you got to it before I did!  I was wondering about that myself this evening.

Wiz...what say you? :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 09:53:38 PM
RB,
If you happen to "see" Absolut  :lol: , please tell him I am still sticking with our "simple theory" from a few days ago.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: "Cerulean"
"Underground Party"  Sunday night, school night, small island with 100,000 people on it, International School as 9 kids in a class.  Not likely, and if it was people would have known about it and the kids would have squealed already.


I agree with that.  So, ok, this isn't a party of International School kids.  But from an earlier post (about 10 days ago), these parties do exist and they are illegal if they are held without a prior permit from the police.  It has to be a party that Joran knew about, not the brothers, since this theory has the brothers dropping Natalee and Joran off.

Let me please try again, and keep shooting at this theory if you would:

1.. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Joran calls Deepak for help at 2:40.  Deepak says no, I'm not getting involved with your rough friends, you handle it.  Joran walks home, then text-messages Deepak that he made it home (maybe that is a coverup text-message, one for the police to find later?).  Now what do the 3 guys do? Yikes. They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:54:09 PM
Cerulean, I completely agree with you abt the underground party.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 09:55:03 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "wwizard"
Dang, ya’ll are fast, I’m a two finger peck typer


Mr Wizard,
With the latest develeopments, are you still standing by your original theory?


somewhat, sort of, kinda.....have entertained another one but its not very flattering


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:55:04 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
Hi anna ,

I hate to admit it but , lots of teeners have bad manners in my opinion , well that was my vision of them when i lived in Amsterdam in 1998

Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "clevfan1234"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "RichinTx"
Quote from: "sandy"
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?


It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"
<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.


oh yes it is, especially of todays kids


Speak for yourself.  Mine certainly do NOT behave in this manner, especially to an adult female.  For one thing, they know they could never get away with it but that was never a problem for Joren, apparently.  I have one 6'3" and he would show respect for the girl's mother or wish that he had.  And wish it deeply.


exactly! I have said this before, my son would not have to worry about hitting himself on the chest, because I would be doing it for him if he spoke to the parents of a missing girl he was last seen with, no matter what time of day they came to the house. T is 6'2" and 205 lbs, I brought him this world, and as the old saying goes, I can take him out........or at least make his life miserable for a few minutes until he came clean. If he was involved in something bad, he would have to face it, I would see that he faced up to it.
<<

This is to bad manners what a grain of sand is to a boulder.  Far and away beyond the pale and do not even pretend he was awakened from sleep on a school night for that was just never the case that he was sleeping, ever.  Yes, lots of teenagers have bad manners but most parents to not stand by while their giant of a son pounds his chest as a mother whose child he was the last to be seen accompanying.

This is enabling his anger problem and yet another dimension to his privileged life.  It is just not acceptable by any standard, no matter how low.  It is a form of violence toward a woman, very atavistic and primative beyone belief.  See why gorillas do this for further explanation.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 09:55:06 PM
Did fox cut off the end of the MB kids interview?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:55:29 PM
Dallas Also, my problem with the underground theory is this: If you're talking about a large party (100 kids), it would have come out. This is a small community. If you're talking about a smaller party at somebody's house (30 people) I could buy it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 09:55:31 PM
Pine and FOM,
I bet a lot of posters don't know the "WIZ THEORY". So Mr. Wiz, please re-post would ya, please???  :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: JessesMom on June 26, 2005, 09:55:49 PM
Quote from: "Cerulean"
"Underground Party"  Sunday night, school night, small island with 100,000 people on it, International School as 9 kids in a class.  Not likely, and if it was people would have known about it and the kids would have squealed already.


But one thing you forget ... they had the Soul Beach Party that evening.  I don't know that much about it except there were several big name acts there and loads of people attending .... where did these performers and their entourages go, the security and "groupies" that go along with it, possibly even people visiting from neighboring islands for this bash?? Did they all just pack up and go home immediately, or did they stay on the island that night?  Don't you imagine there were a few parties?

I'm not really addressing this specifically to you but just to anyone in general.  This has not been discussed much.  I am very much suspicious of some connection to this island event.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 09:55:58 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
RB,
If you happen to "see" Absolut  :lol: , please tell him I am still sticking with our "simple theory" from a few days ago.


I keep posting it :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 09:56:18 PM
Absolut - I think it's going to be very interesting to see if either Paulus or Steve Croes talk to the media. I had the impression when the VDS did the interview with Greta that they had watched the media uproar, felt like a lot was said that painted a specific picture of their family and son and so said "guess we gotta play the media game too" and since the time spent privately with Beth and Greta was apparently not a media ambush they agreed to Greta's interview request - and then were sorta stuck in the "you talked to fox, you better talk to us too" game. I'm thinking they may decide to stay away from the media circus now given the outcome of the last time.

Anyone else have a guess on this?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 09:56:24 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
RB,
If you happen to "see" Absolut  :lol: , please tell him I am still sticking with our "simple theory" from a few days ago.


He's right here :)  He's gonna post back to you


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bob_in_MD on June 26, 2005, 09:56:26 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Cerulean, I completely agree with you abt the underground party.


I'm not going to ask what an "underground party" is and what goes on there.  That'll just illustrate how out of touch I am with modern society.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 09:56:33 PM
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


 my thoughts too


So instead of reporting this abduction, they decided to lie and say they dropped her off at the HI??  Yeah--right!   :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: momto5 on June 26, 2005, 09:56:48 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "Cerulean"
"Underground Party"  Sunday night, school night, small island with 100,000 people on it, International School as 9 kids in a class.  Not likely, and if it was people would have known about it and the kids would have squealed already.


I agree with that.  So, ok, this isn't a party of International School kids.  But from an earlier post (about 10 days ago), these parties do exist and they are illegal if they are held without a prior permit from the police.  It has to be a party that Joran knew about, not the brothers, since this theory has the brothers dropping Natalee and Joran off.

Let me please try again, and keep shooting at this theory if you would:

1.. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Joran calls Deepak for help at 2:40.  Deepak says no, I'm not getting involved with your rough friends, you handle it.  Joran walks home, then text-messages Deepak that he made it home (maybe that is a coverup text-message, one for the police to find later?).  Now what do the 3 guys do? Yikes. They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?

How about, they go to the party and she meets up with a bad crowd, tells Joran to leave her there and he does and then shes missing. he left her there then lies because????


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 26, 2005, 09:57:05 PM
I think lots of you EQUATE the Arubaian Interrogations as to the smae that would happen here in the USA, from what we are seeing. The Arubaians are MUCH thougher and much more intense. Joran has now for almost 2 weeks being interrogated 11 hours a day in extremes of cold hot and WHo knows what else. They even brought in his dad to Threaten him. That would NEVER Happen here in the USA. If you quote me please dont take my words out of context...thanx.....I am leaning towards these 3 boys had nothing to do with NH's dissappearance. I can't believe that a 17 yr old could hold out this long. I dont think I could(but I have a conscience). and I dont know these kids and no one here does either. Debate is good but let's keep it honest and not twist anything around to make our theories look better. Just the Facts. please...


GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 09:57:14 PM
Jessesmom, I'm fairly sure that the people who stayed for the final event also stayed the night. There are very few flights that leave Sunday evening.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 26, 2005, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.


My thoughts from the beginning,,,after a ruffie and something bad very well could have happened..


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 09:57:34 PM
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 09:58:03 PM
Quote from: "JessesMom"
Quote from: "Cerulean"
"Underground Party"  Sunday night, school night, small island with 100,000 people on it, International School as 9 kids in a class.  Not likely, and if it was people would have known about it and the kids would have squealed already.


But one thing you forget ... they had the Soul Beach Party that evening.  I don't know that much about it except there were several big name acts there and loads of people attending .... where did these performers and their entourages go, the security and "groupies" that go along with it, possibly even people visiting from neighboring islands for this bash?? Did they all just pack up and go home immediately, or did they stay on the island that night?  Don't you imagine there were a few parties?

I'm not really addressing this specifically to you but just to anyone in general.  This has not been discussed much.  I am very much suspicious of some connection to this island event.


The security guards were staying in the same hotel and there had even been an event at HI from 9am-3pm on sunday before the Big concert. MB students have never said that they saw any of these guards in their hotel.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 09:58:03 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Let me please try again, and keep shooting at this theory if you would:

1.. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Joran calls Deepak for help at 2:40.  Deepak says no, I'm not getting involved with your rough friends, you handle it.  Joran walks home, then text-messages Deepak that he made it home (maybe that is a coverup text-message, one for the police to find later?).  Now what do the 3 guys do? Yikes. They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?


You know, I could believe this except for one thing...  There's just no way Satish and Deepak would say "okay, mum's the word" and sit in prison for THIS!!!  For a girl they didn't even know...and a new acquaintance (Joran)???

Never.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 09:58:48 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Mr Wizard,
With the latest develeopments, are you still standing by your original theory?


Kerin - you got to it before I did!  I was wondering about that myself this evening.

Wiz...what say you? :wink:


nothings happened to negate it


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 26, 2005, 09:59:31 PM
Quote from: "JessesMom"
But one thing you forget ... they had the Soul Beach Party that evening.  I don't know that much about it except there were several big name acts there and loads of people attending .... where did these performers and their entourages go, the security and "groupies" that go along with it, possibly even people visiting from neighboring islands for this bash?? Did they all just pack up and go home immediately, or did they stay on the island that night?  Don't you imagine there were a few parties?

I'm not really addressing this specifically to you but just to anyone in general.  This has not been discussed much.  I am very much suspicious of some connection to this island event.


There was no official Soul Beach After Party that night as there had been for about three or four night prior -- at least that's according to the soul beach website. But that's not to say that groups of people weren't partying somewhere -- or lots of places.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
RB,
If you happen to "see" Absolut  :lol: , please tell him I am still sticking with our "simple theory" from a few days ago.


I keep posting it :)


I knew I liked you for some reason, Absolut!!  :wink: (shhhh...don't tell RB though)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 10:00:28 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"

I am leaning towards these 3 boys had nothing to do with NH's dissappearance. I can't believe that a 17 yr old could hold out this long. I dont think I could(but I have a conscience).

GuyWdog


At least you recognize the distinct possibility that Joran could be a conscience-free sociopath.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bobntexas on June 26, 2005, 10:00:34 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Angie,
I do know that some posters accused her mother of just seeking notoriety for Dash? That one shocked me....


That poster was a total whack job.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Angiex911dsptchr on June 26, 2005, 10:00:35 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Angie,
I do know that some posters accused her mother of just seeking notoriety for Dash? That one shocked me....


 YIKES.. I wasnt aware of that Kerin.. Thanks!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 10:00:50 PM
Quote from: "bob_in_MD"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Cerulean, I completely agree with you abt the underground party.


I'm not going to ask what an "underground party" is and what goes on there.  That'll just illustrate how out of touch I am with modern society.


you probably have been to one when you were a teenager, but the worst thing was putting peanuts in your cokes, smoking cigs and maybe a beer! LOLOL.............now it is liqour, ectasy, acid, whatever! Usually at an all adult house, or a home where the parents are gone.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: JJJJaded on June 26, 2005, 10:01:21 PM
Just wondering if any lab results regarding possible DNA or any tenable evidence whatsoever has been recovered? I know they are not supposed to say...but this is ridiculous. If they have any hard evidence, like blood and such...why can't they say?
JMO, but they need to rule people out, seems like they are doing just the opposite, for all we know the whole thing was botched.
Do they use things like Luminol? Are they digging  up everything? Polygraphs really need to be given to all involved.
Otherwise, I think we are headed toward no resolution and the poor family leaving without ever knowing what happened.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: mordred on June 26, 2005, 10:01:27 PM
Quote from: "bob_in_MD"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Cerulean, I completely agree with you abt the underground party.


I'm not going to ask what an "underground party" is and what goes on there.  That'll just illustrate how out of touch I am with modern society.


'Underground party' just means illegal party- no licence to sell alcohol, usually held in a place not licenced or fit for such an event, word of mouth advertising, more drugs than usual, etc:

I don't agree with the underground party theory- If there was one, Natalle would want to go with her friends from MB & other kids in the club would have heard about it (including many from MB)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:01:32 PM
Quote from: "coco"
Absolut - I think it's going to be very interesting to see if either Paulus or Steve Croes talk to the media. I had the impression when the VDS did the interview with Greta that they had watched the media uproar, felt like a lot was said that painted a specific picture of their family and son and so said "guess we gotta play the media game too" and since the time spent privately with Beth and Greta was apparently not a media ambush they agreed to Greta's interview request - and then were sorta stuck in the "you talked to fox, you better talk to us too" game. I'm thinking they may decide to stay away from the media circus now given the outcome of the last time.

Anyone else have a guess on this?


Geraldo at 10pm
NOW


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:01:41 PM
Quote from: "bob_in_MD"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Cerulean, I completely agree with you abt the underground party.


I'm not going to ask what an "underground party" is and what goes on there.  That'll just illustrate how out of touch I am with modern society.


Hey Bob - me too.  But my imagination is running wild.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:01:49 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:


unfortunately, I don't think it has a good outcome for NH inlight of all the time that has passed.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Pine and FOM,
I bet a lot of posters don't know the "WIZ THEORY". So Mr. Wiz, please re-post would ya, please???  :wink:


don't have a copy and don't know how to do a link....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: JessesMom on June 26, 2005, 10:02:39 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Jessesmom, I'm fairly sure that the people who stayed for the final event also stayed the night. There are very few flights that leave Sunday evening.


Thank you, Arubagirl .... what do you think about all the "extras" on the island that night?  I mean I can picture many "underground" parties being had, whatever that means .... at least private parties of some sort, maybe even groups of these people on the beach.  I just have it stuck in my mind that someone could have grabbed her off the beach after Joran left her.  These were people that probably all left by boats or planes or whatever the next morning.  Possibly they could have transported her off the island.  I don't know, maybe I'm reaching.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 10:02:53 PM
I need to repost this excellent post that was made by Americaninaruba which was in response to a post from Sarah:

 
americaninaruba



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Aruba
 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
sarah wrote:
Underground parties--after parties after the bars close down? Is this common on the island?


No to throw a public party/event here onthe island you need to get the police authorization, so thier is some sort of control, and they can be aware of it....the underground parties are parties taht they hand out fliers and text MSG to poeple and throw a party that has not been run by the authorities...most of the time as soon as its 1am the police arrive anyways and shut down the party, unless its in a secluded area that no one calls about the music bothering.....which is the reason he threw these parties at that house that stands alone


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:02:57 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Pine and FOM,
I bet a lot of posters don't know the "WIZ THEORY". So Mr. Wiz, please re-post would ya, please???  :wink:


don't have a copy and don't know how to do a link....


HAHAHAHA me neither  :roll: fellow pecker!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:03:29 PM
Quote from: "bobntexas"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Angie,
I do know that some posters accused her mother of just seeking notoriety for Dash? That one shocked me....


That poster was a total whack job.

Bob...do you remember who that was?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 10:04:11 PM
STeve gave alibi for the guys according to dave holloway.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 10:04:12 PM
Thanks gals/guys... :D

I did feel like an outsider before, that`s why I read first for about a week or see, and  then it`s getting itchy here so I thought heeyy I want to talk also, and give my opinion..! Kackylacky thanks girl i`m not agreing with you often but at least you seem to have a mind of your own which I like... :wink:

Lacy... I have no group I`m an outsider from the netherlands...whoepsss
But I still find it great that I can express also my opinion here, thanks to the sm blog!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 10:04:31 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:




 :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: sandinmytoes on June 26, 2005, 10:04:56 PM
hello,
could someone please post a link to arubagirl's pictures? i can't seem to find them myself...
thanks!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:05:00 PM
There could have been parties on beaches, don't know of any specific ones, but it's very well possible.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:05:22 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
RB,
If you happen to "see" Absolut  :lol: , please tell him I am still sticking with our "simple theory" from a few days ago.


I keep posting it :)


I knew I liked you for some reason, Absolut!!  :wink: (shhhh...don't tell RB though)


And I have been accused of being a Joran support and a Natalee Supporter all in the same day imagine that :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
I need to repost this excellent post that was made by Americaninaruba which was in response to a post from Sarah:

 
americaninaruba



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Aruba
 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
sarah wrote:
Underground parties--after parties after the bars close down? Is this common on the island?


No to throw a public party/event here onthe island you need to get the police authorization, so thier is some sort of control, and they can be aware of it....the underground parties are parties taht they hand out fliers and text MSG to poeple and throw a party that has not been run by the authorities...most of the time as soon as its 1am the police arrive anyways and shut down the party, unless its in a secluded area that no one calls about the music bothering.....which is the reason he threw these parties at that house that stands alone


maybe something bad happened there??


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:06:06 PM
Sand: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
RB,
If you happen to "see" Absolut  :lol: , please tell him I am still sticking with our "simple theory" from a few days ago.


I keep posting it :)


I knew I liked you for some reason, Absolut!!  :wink: (shhhh...don't tell RB though)


And I have been accused of being a Joran support and a Natalee Supporter all in the same day imagine that :)


I think it is just that you are fairly unbiased.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:07:16 PM
Hannie,
I have always enjoyed reading your posts, whether I agree or not. You are entitled to your opinion just as much as everyone else.  :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:07:57 PM
arubagirl or Rob (the monkey on the ground - you slacker - where are you?)...have you or anyone there heard any details about the search group from TX?  I know there was an update early this morning, but has there been anything since then?

Thanks for posting the beautiful pictures!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 10:07:57 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Thanks gals/guys... :D

I did feel like an outsider before, that`s why I read first for about a week or see, and  then it`s getting itchy here so I thought heeyy I want to talk also, and give my opinion..! Kackylacky thanks girl i`m not agreing with you often but at least you seem to have a mind of your own which I like... :wink:

Lacy... I have no group I`m an outsider from the netherlands...whoepsss
But I still find it great that I can express also my opinion here, thanks to the sm blog!


we are cool hannie. I like to read your take on things from near my home land of Norway!....well in the general area!.....well on the same continent! LOLOL :lol:  :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 10:08:00 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "coco"
Absolut - I think it's going to be very interesting to see if either Paulus or Steve Croes talk to the media. I had the impression when the VDS did the interview with Greta that they had watched the media uproar, felt like a lot was said that painted a specific picture of their family and son and so said "guess we gotta play the media game too" and since the time spent privately with Beth and Greta was apparently not a media ambush they agreed to Greta's interview request - and then were sorta stuck in the "you talked to fox, you better talk to us too" game. I'm thinking they may decide to stay away from the media circus now given the outcome of the last time.

Anyone else have a guess on this?


Geraldo at 10pm
NOW


Would you have ever thought, 3 months ago, that you'd be uttering the words "Geraldo...NOW"?  ROFLMAO! ;)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: sandinmytoes on June 26, 2005, 10:08:06 PM
thanks arubagirl, both for the link and for your time in taking the pictures!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kshe78 on June 26, 2005, 10:08:12 PM
I'm about 17 pages behind, but after taking a little trip to Bruster's for a chocolate milkshake, I'm feeling energized and did a little thinking.   :lol:

The more that I hear, the more that I read, and the more speculation that there is on the board, I'm starting to feel strongly that Natalee and Joran didn't make it to the beach at the Marriott.  

We had the first story that they went to the Holiday Inn.
(a) the security guard didn't see her come back
(b) the front desk didn't see her
(c) the video cameras didn't detect her
(d) the 139 other students didn't see her
Story changes.

New story - Joran is dropped off first, Natalee with the brothers.  
(a) not a likely scenario, as Deepak and Satish don't know Natalee (have apparently never "met" her until she's in the car)
(b) if Natalee just needed a ride back to the hotel, there was an entire group of kids who she could ride with - why make someone go out of their way?
Story changes.

New story - Deepak and Satish drop them off at the Marriott Hotel.
(a) Natalee's missing
(b) Joran's changing his story
(c) there are NO witnesses coming forward who saw them at the beach
(d) there are NO witnesses saying that they say Joran by himself that night
(e) a large group of Natalee's friends were apparently on the beach, a short distance away and didn't notice anything
(f) I find it hard to believe that there are 50? 100? people on the beach at the Holiday Inn, yet the Marriott Beach was deserted
(g) Joran apparently says now that he walked home - yet there are not witnesses, as far as we know, that saw him walking home.  Not even a cab driver can say "oh yea, I dropped some people off at a hotel along that road and saw a tall guy walking.  I might not be able to identify him in a lineup, but I saw someone."  At least that would give us SOMETHING.

Something just isn't sitting right with me about the whole thing.  That being said, it still doesn't solve WHERE the HELL Natalee is, but it's been bothering me.  Feel free to poke holes in it, b/c I sure don't have the answers.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Angiex911dsptchr on June 26, 2005, 10:08:13 PM
Night all.... I have my kid hovering over my shoulder.. I know he wants online.. he hasnt been home all weekend..  SO .. I am gonna be a nice mommy and let him have his turn..LOL  
     Bless NH and family and friends...  good night!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:09:22 PM
Well Absolut, maybe people should just be looking at you as a Supporter of the Truth??  :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 10:10:26 PM
Quote from: "Angiex911dsptchr"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Angie,
I do know that some posters accused her mother of just seeking notoriety for Dash? That one shocked me....


 YIKES.. I wasnt aware of that Kerin.. Thanks!




Bad thing is that we get to keep the bad posters and the Mountain Brook kids are pretty much gone.

Heck of a way to treat Dash.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 10:10:32 PM
Hey all y'all!  Just wanted to say that I hereby enter of my own volition with an open mind to all possibilities with a very strong guidance from logical thought!

Thankyouverymuch!  Im jes happy ta be here! (Sotaspeak!):D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:10:33 PM
Quote from: "Angiex911dsptchr"
Night all.... I have my kid hovering over my shoulder.. I know he wants online.. he hasnt been home all weekend..  SO .. I am gonna be a nice mommy and let him have his turn..LOL  
     Bless NH and family and friends...  good night!!


Night Angie - gotta be good to the little sprout!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: candygirl on June 26, 2005, 10:11:44 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"

I am leaning towards these 3 boys had nothing to do with NH's dissappearance. I can't believe that a 17 yr old could hold out this long. I dont think I could(but I have a conscience).

GuyWdog


At least you recognize the distinct possibility that Joran could be a conscience-free sociopath.


I absolutely think he would......sociopath....think Scott Peterson? Besides, Dad told him not to say anything. If he sticks to his story, he gets off
provided no body found


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Frank on June 26, 2005, 10:12:26 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:




 :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D


WIZ - You don't remember what your theory was?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 10:12:27 PM
Quote from: "kshe78"
I'm about 17 pages behind, but after taking a little trip to Bruster's for a chocolate milkshake, I'm feeling energized and did a little thinking.   :lol:

The more that I hear, the more that I read, and the more speculation that there is on the board, I'm starting to feel strongly that Natalee and Joran didn't make it to the beach at the Marriott.  

We had the first story that they went to the Holiday Inn.
(a) the security guard didn't see her come back
(b) the front desk didn't see her
(c) the video cameras didn't detect her
(d) the 139 other students didn't see her
Story changes.

New story - Joran is dropped off first, Natalee with the brothers.  
(a) not a likely scenario, as Deepak and Satish don't know Natalee (have apparently never "met" her until she's in the car)
(b) if Natalee just needed a ride back to the hotel, there was an entire group of kids who she could ride with - why make someone go out of their way?
Story changes.

New story - Deepak and Satish drop them off at the Marriott Hotel.
(a) Natalee's missing
(b) Joran's changing his story
(c) there are NO witnesses coming forward who saw them at the beach
(d) there are NO witnesses saying that they say Joran by himself that night
(e) a large group of Natalee's friends were apparently on the beach, a short distance away and didn't notice anything
(f) I find it hard to believe that there are 50? 100? people on the beach at the Holiday Inn, yet the Marriott Beach was deserted
(g) Joran apparently says now that he walked home - yet there are not witnesses, as far as we know, that saw him walking home.  Not even a cab driver can say "oh yea, I dropped some people off at a hotel along that road and saw a tall guy walking.  I might not be able to identify him in a lineup, but I saw someone."  At least that would give us SOMETHING.

Something just isn't sitting right with me about the whole thing.  That being said, it still doesn't solve WHERE the HELL Natalee is, but it's been bothering me.  Feel free to poke holes in it, b/c I sure don't have the answers.



BINGO! What is joran's alibi? He has none. No one has said they saw joran walking by himself that night. I said it before and I will say it again, peripheral witnesses.

Arubagirl, how well traveled is the road fromt the Marriott Beach to where joran lives at that time of night.? Isn't the area around the Marriott kind of crowded with people, cars taxis?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tila_Bean on June 26, 2005, 10:12:34 PM
Oh gawd.  Geraldo was just brushing the hair off of Steve Croes momma face.  How sweet of him! :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 26, 2005, 10:13:47 PM
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?

and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...
GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 10:13:57 PM
KerinTX wrote:

Quote
Hannie,
I have always enjoyed reading your posts, whether I agree or not. You are entitled to your opinion just as much as everyone else.



I know kerin thank you, I know that there are a lot of people having simple an open mind or opinions, thats logical so many people so many opinions! That is what the world makes so different, which i`m glad for.
I couldn`t possibly noticed anybody which are open minded And I do not judge the ones that aren`t, hey we have all the right to our opinions I think...  :D

But it doesn`t make them acctually true, b/c of hearsay and mediacircus :D
_________________


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:14:49 PM
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Oh gawd.  Geraldo was just brushing the hair off of Steve Croes momma face.  How sweet of him! :lol:



can you get a picture of the house that stands alone ?
aruba girl...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 10:14:53 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?

and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...
GuyWdog


Guy he could be, and then he couldn't be.  Just depends on what comes out.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:15:29 PM
Kackylacky, Depends on the timeline. At one o'clock in the morning? It's fairly travelled. At 3am? The occasional car, but it's not completely deserted. That's why I'm thinking WTF about the "his walking home" story. He walked for 30 minutes and NOBODY saw him? Jeez.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Hey all y'all!  Just wanted to say that I hereby enter of my own volition with an open mind to all possibilities with a very strong guidance from logically thought!

Thankyouverymuch!  Im jes happy ta be here! (Sotaspeak!):D


Wow, there's TT and his southerndoubletalk LOL   :lol:  :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 26, 2005, 10:16:19 PM
Quote from: "Frank"
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:




 :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D


WIZ - You don't remember what your theory was?

Ok Wiz...you owe me one again!

NH is probably alive (if she's minding).....but she ain't n or around aruba....what seems like random events is really a well oiled machine and it is ABOVE THE LAW...this is white slavery territory we're n....no "rules".....I no the game now....and we ALL need to deal w/ it.......if there was no internet I wood no only watt the mainstream media tells me (laughable) and b OK......but I no more now....

the scam is this....the dutchguy is the setup man. he takes the "mark" and
plays kissy kissy wink wink all week and plants the "trust me" hook.....he
sets em up and the brothers carry em 2 the boat......after they seperate the "mark" from "the herd" (and they did) and away we go......no body ever found means no murder conviction.....they do their "time" and are released........what a gig......foolproof......I feel for the people caught up in this twisted vortex....the ONLY way her parents will ever see her is 2 pay 2 have her back and it's very slim odds because that wood b an admission of guilt by the pirates of the caribbean.....u just don't kill women like NH....unless u can throw away $20,000, $50,000, $100,000.........way 2 valuable......the abducted women cooperate or die....real simple....what wood u do in their place? b honest w/ yourself......I'm through checking EVERY headline cause it don't matter.....I now no how it's gonna play now.....the "student"
brothers......."students" of watt and tell me about their mainland
connections.....the 3 will b released.....b honest agin.......no
evidence.....if this disturbs u, I apologize, it's just the reality of the
situation......hug ur fam, kids, friends 2 day because ur free and not in a
nightmare like this......watt did NH ever do to warrant her punishment....the trio is a lot more scared of their BOSS than the law......all the king horses and all the kings men......be well

NH has been SOLD. Don't shoot the messenger. The truth is ugly and it hurts. We must deal with it though as adults and stop pretending it doesn't happen. There's BIG money playing this game. Here's an example:
You buy a blonde women (popular where everyone is dark headed) for $100,000.
She could easily make you $50,000 a year for say 20 years. After 2 years
she's paid for and pure profit. $50,000 x 20 years = $1,000,000.
We lead sheltered lives in the US. Painfull to think about but it happens
ALL the time. She's NOT on Aruba, look all you want. This is the ONLY
scenario that fits all the "evidence". She was stalked from day 1, nothing
accidental about it. Time will bear this out.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 10:16:22 PM
Edmund Kemper, an extremely intelligent killer back in the 60's was kept separate from the rest of the family because of his enourmous size and strength.  The mother feared he would hurt his other siblings.  John Douglas - the famous FBI profiler whose work set the stage for the movie Silence of the Lambs, was one of the few people who interviewed Kemper.  He found this killer extremely intelligent, almost likeable, and was one of the only killers he felt was not "born" a killer but "made" one through circumstances surrounding his family life.  

1- It comes to my mind and I wonder why Joran had an apartment separate from the rest of the family?
2 -How long has he had that apartment?  Was it his request or his parents demand?  
3- Does he have an anger problem and if so for how long has this been a part of their family life?
4 - Was the house just not big enough and the outside apartment was the only logical solution?

I cant find definitive information regarding the apartment but if there is one, these are questions that come to mind.

This guy could have developed a serious personality disorder if he was constantly made to think he wasnt worthy of living with the rest of the family because of his size and strength.

I would also like to know if Joran had any sort of history of every killing animals for fun.

These questions are some of the questions an investigator would want answers to.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:16:24 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?  and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...GuyWdog


This was covered in detail, over and over, very specifically a couple of nights ago.  Apparently you weren't here, but it was pretty much the concensus of the night crew that Joran fits the profile.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:16:42 PM
friend of monkey, you're REALLY going to be have to be more specific than that... What house that stands alone?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dragonfly on June 26, 2005, 10:17:00 PM
All I know for sure is that I feel for all of the parents.  I truly do.  How hard it must be to be the parent of a missing child, but also just as difficult to be the parent of one of these suspects.  I was very impressed with the words of Steve's mother and that she walked right over to Natalee's dad to have a conversation.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: da wench on June 26, 2005, 10:17:28 PM
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Oh gawd.  Geraldo was just brushing the hair off of Steve Croes momma face.  How sweet of him! :lol:


Is he OCD?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:17:57 PM
YEAH for klaasend!!! Thanks! I think wizard was just holding out on us!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:18:23 PM
Why is everyone appearing on FOX? What's wrong with CNN? Come on, won't someone think of us poor Arubans?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 10:18:27 PM
Quote from: "RB"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?

and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...
GuyWdog


Guy he could be, and then he couldn't be.  Just depends on what comes out.


See, his "supposed" arrogance reminds me of that of Scott Peterson, who, in my book is a prime example of a sociopath.  IF, it turns out that Joran is in fact behind this, then I'll be convinced that he is a sociopath.  Currently, I think he is a sociopath, but that's only because I'm going by pure speculation as to what has happened so far.  If it turns out that he's a sweet, upstanding young man, then slap my wrists!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 10:18:31 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?  and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...GuyWdog


This was covered in detail, over and over, very specifically a couple of nights ago.  Apparently you weren't here, but it was pretty much the concensus of the night crew that Joran fits the profile.


While that's true of the night crew the other night, it may not be tonight given the new developments.  Twists everywhere...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 26, 2005, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
YEAH for klaasend!!! Thanks! I think wizard was just holding out on us!!

No..I think he just doesn't know how to find it again..and since he's a "hunt n peck" typer...doesn't want to re-type.  That must have taken him all day, lol. :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 10:19:29 PM
See, his "supposed" arrogance reminds me of that of Scott Peterson, who, in my book is a prime example of a sociopath. IF, it turns out that Joran is in fact behind this, then I'll be convinced that he is a sociopath. Currently, I think he is a sociopath, but that's only because I'm going by pure speculation as to what has happened so far. If it turns out that he's a sweet, upstanding young man, then slap my wrists!

Duly noted :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:19:34 PM
Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Oh gawd.  Geraldo was just brushing the hair off of Steve Croes momma face.  How sweet of him! :lol:


Is he OCD?


Hey wench - I almost didn't recognize you!  New avatar?  Cute!  Or maybe you just didn't come to the monkey session fully attired.  (Like me.)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 10:19:40 PM
Why walk home in the middle of the night when you have to do final exams in the morning ?

Why sent a message to kalpoe walking home

If I have a finalk exam in the morning  I would like to hit the sack and ask for a pickup.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sobelle on June 26, 2005, 10:19:59 PM
Absolut said:

The security guards were staying in the same hotel and there had even been an event at HI from 9am-3pm on sunday before the Big concert. MB students have never said that they saw any of these guards in their hotel.[/quote]


Now that you mention it I find that rather odd that they've never mentioned them at all.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:20:13 PM
I know this is off-topic but I want to give Hannie a hug. Don't leave us Hannie...

{{{{{HANNIE}}}}}}


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 10:20:51 PM
Roses are red,
violets are blue,
I'm schizophrenic
and so am I




sorry


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: da wench on June 26, 2005, 10:21:43 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Oh gawd.  Geraldo was just brushing the hair off of Steve Croes momma face.  How sweet of him! :lol:


Is he OCD?


Hey wench - I almost didn't recognize you!  New avatar?  Cute!  Or maybe you just didn't come to the monkey session fully attired.  (Like me.)


Excuse the hair...I just woke up  :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Frank on June 26, 2005, 10:21:52 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?

and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...
GuyWdog


Why are you so defensive of Joran? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering why.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 10:22:05 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
I need to repost this excellent post that was made by Americaninaruba which was in response to a post from Sarah:

 
americaninaruba



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Aruba
 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
sarah wrote:
Underground parties--after parties after the bars close down? Is this common on the island?


No to throw a public party/event here onthe island you need to get the police authorization, so thier is some sort of control, and they can be aware of it....the underground parties are parties taht they hand out fliers and text MSG to poeple and throw a party that has not been run by the authorities...most of the time as soon as its 1am the police arrive anyways and shut down the party, unless its in a secluded area that no one calls about the music bothering.....which is the reason he threw these parties at that house that stands alone


so undergound party means no more that one without permission of the authorities.  nothing sininister?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 10:22:44 PM
KackyLacky wrote:


Quote
we are cool hannie. I like to read your take on things from near my home land of Norway!....well in the general area!.....well on the same continent! LOLOL  



But what means the name KackyLacky for g...sake hihihih :lol:

I didn`t know you live in Norway, but yourč an american native I guess? or not?Or you were born in Norway and live now in the US?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 10:22:51 PM
Wizard, where in N Texas are you?  (Sorry people...don't flame me for asking just this one personal question...please?) ;)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 10:23:06 PM
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "RB"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?

and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...
GuyWdog


Guy he could be, and then he couldn't be.  Just depends on what comes out.


See, his "supposed" arrogance reminds me of that of Scott Peterson, who, in my book is a prime example of a sociopath.  IF, it turns out that Joran is in fact behind this, then I'll be convinced that he is a sociopath.  Currently, I think he is a sociopath, but that's only because I'm going by pure speculation as to what has happened so far.  If it turns out that he's a sweet, upstanding young man, then slap my wrists!


Your common sense will prevail here. Unfortunately the body will have to turn up and Joran will still never admit he did it even though common sense logicially leads one to believe that he did.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 10:23:19 PM
The released suspects seem to have upset quite a few people's theories. But to me, my ideas are still the same. I never thought that either Steve Croes or papa VDS were necessary to the situation with Joren. They were interesting to speculate more scenarios....but still not necessary to come up with scenarios that could have happened had they never have been suspects.

At this point, I still beleive there is something amiss when three boys plot together to tell a lie about their whereabouts that night. That lie even put two innocent victims in jail (the out of work guards). That original story has caused countless days to be lost, in searching the correct area. (I'm assuming that the beach story is the closest story we have to the truth thus far.) What was the purpose of this original story? If Joren and Natalee were left on the beach....why not just tell the truth to begin with?? Nope, when a person fabircates a story to cover up something....dragging innocent people into their mess (and maybe even two more innocents if the brothers turn out to be innocent), then I have to beleive something is being hidden by JVDS who was the last person to see Natalee alive.

Maybe Joren didn't murder Natalee, but something did happen that caused him to fabricate lies. I'm still sticking with the theory that Joren knows a lot more than he has told to date. I just haven't a clue as to what could be so dire as to necessitate lying and getting freinds to join in the lies? But it does make either murder, manslaughter or even an accident very suspicious under the circumstances.

Now as to why hasn't he broken yet??? His friends have....otherwise we wouldn't have the story about Joren being dropped on the beach along with Natalee while the friends drove off....and Joren walking home later. Is it the truth?? Who knows? But I doubt the brothers would have changed their stories putting Joren in the defensive if it was another lie.  Maybe Joren thinks holding out is better than chancing several years more in jail! Let's not forget that his dad was in the legal field, and I'm sure Joren's heard a lot of legal stories during his youth to refer to.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 10:23:23 PM
so undergound party means no more that one without permission of the authorities. nothing sininister?

Underground parties were, if I recall, originally termed such by folks who used the NYC underground parking garages for their parties.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: rogers on June 26, 2005, 10:24:13 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Kackylacky, Depends on the timeline. At one o'clock in the morning? It's fairly travelled. At 3am? The occasional car, but it's not completely deserted. That's why I'm thinking WTF about the "his walking home" story. He walked for 30 minutes and NOBODY saw him? Jeez.

There is a difference between noone seeing him and noone noticing him.

At 3am, I don't notice much of anything.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:24:44 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
friend of monkey, you're REALLY going to be have to be more specific than that... What house that stands alone?


someone that has 2 houses...
doesn't lorenzo have a house on the southern side
where there may be underground parties that go unchecked?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 10:25:06 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Oh gawd.  Geraldo was just brushing the hair off of Steve Croes momma face.  How sweet of him! :lol:


Is he OCD?


Hey wench - I almost didn't recognize you!  New avatar?  Cute!  Or maybe you just didn't come to the monkey session fully attired.  (Like me.)
 

geraldo has a touching problem.  see people retract in horror when he touches their  arm or shoulder.  mr. Holloway is a prince, so measured.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 10:25:17 PM
There is a difference between noone seeing him and noone noticing him.

At 3am, I don't notice much of anything.


I liked to notice the insides of my eyelids...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 26, 2005, 10:25:55 PM
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: amillerwvu on June 26, 2005, 10:26:22 PM
Hey guys...not so fast on the typing :shock:   I have two windows open: one for the current discussion and one looking at the so-called "old" threads.  I should have known that there would be a lot of pages due to the news today :(   Is Dash really gone?  Maybe she will come back another day...(fingers crossed)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:26:22 PM
Good point about the no one noticing him.

I can't even find the area where L. is supposed to live, let alone his house.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 10:26:35 PM
Quote from: "Frank"
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:




 :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D


WIZ - You don't remember what your theory was?


oh, I remember it well enuf, can't type that much when drinking :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LilOrphan on June 26, 2005, 10:27:11 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Dallas Also, my problem with the underground theory is this: If you're talking about a large party (100 kids), it would have come out. This is a small community. If you're talking about a smaller party at somebody's house (30 people) I could buy it.


Aruba, sorry to bother you again, but is Nemesis Trapenberg related to Rueben Trapenberg?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:27:25 PM
New issue, what if body is found. No foul play evidence but it is found near light house, or marriott beach?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:27:59 PM
LilOrphan, probably, there aren't that many Trappenberg here, but I don't know how close the relation is.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 10:28:54 PM
Nothing typed here is going to be used in a court of law to convict or free someone so I dont understand what difference it makes what side of Jorans coin we are on.  Opinions he is innocent are based on minimal knowledge and opinions he is quilty is based on the same, it appears if the opinion is different than your own, then you dont feel it is worthy of comment.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:29:07 PM
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 10:29:13 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
Why walk home in the middle of the night when you have to do final exams in the morning ?

Why sent a message to kalpoe walking home

If I have a finalk exam in the morning  I would like to hit the sack and ask for a pickup.


too much emphasis on the final exams.  I am not sure they would have been that difficult for graduating seniors.  He had already been accepted into Universities.  Had a scholarship.  In many schools they are just a final formality and many times because of deadlines the teachers already have the grads made out before the finals.

Perhaps others in education can affirm or contradict this practice as it occurs in different parts of the world.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:29:33 PM
arubagirl--

fox news on florida shark attack today
steve croes release


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: da wench on June 26, 2005, 10:29:51 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.


 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog

Trust me, nobody's opinion is going to convict Joran or anyone else.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 10:29:55 PM
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Frank"
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:




 :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D


WIZ - You don't remember what your theory was?

Ok Wiz...you owe me one again!

NH is probably alive (if she's minding).....but she ain't n or around aruba....what seems like random events is really a well oiled machine and it is ABOVE THE LAW...this is white slavery territory we're n....no "rules".....I no the game now....and we ALL need to deal w/ it.......if there was no internet I wood no only watt the mainstream media tells me (laughable) and b OK......but I no more now....

the scam is this....the dutchguy is the setup man. he takes the "mark" and
plays kissy kissy wink wink all week and plants the "trust me" hook.....he
sets em up and the brothers carry em 2 the boat......after they seperate the "mark" from "the herd" (and they did) and away we go......no body ever found means no murder conviction.....they do their "time" and are released........what a gig......foolproof......I feel for the people caught up in this twisted vortex....the ONLY way her parents will ever see her is 2 pay 2 have her back and it's very slim odds because that wood b an admission of guilt by the pirates of the caribbean.....u just don't kill women like NH....unless u can throw away $20,000, $50,000, $100,000.........way 2 valuable......the abducted women cooperate or die....real simple....what wood u do in their place? b honest w/ yourself......I'm through checking EVERY headline cause it don't matter.....I now no how it's gonna play now.....the "student"
brothers......."students" of watt and tell me about their mainland
connections.....the 3 will b released.....b honest agin.......no
evidence.....if this disturbs u, I apologize, it's just the reality of the
situation......hug ur fam, kids, friends 2 day because ur free and not in a
nightmare like this......watt did NH ever do to warrant her punishment....the trio is a lot more scared of their BOSS than the law......all the king horses and all the kings men......be well

NH has been SOLD. Don't shoot the messenger. The truth is ugly and it hurts. We must deal with it though as adults and stop pretending it doesn't happen. There's BIG money playing this game. Here's an example:
You buy a blonde women (popular where everyone is dark headed) for $100,000.
She could easily make you $50,000 a year for say 20 years. After 2 years
she's paid for and pure profit. $50,000 x 20 years = $1,000,000.
We lead sheltered lives in the US. Painfull to think about but it happens
ALL the time. She's NOT on Aruba, look all you want. This is the ONLY
scenario that fits all the "evidence". She was stalked from day 1, nothing
accidental about it. Time will bear this out.



tip o the hat, K


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:29:58 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Nothing typed here is going to be used in a court of law to convict or free someone so I dont understand what difference it makes what side of Jorans coin we are on.  Opinions he is innocent are based on minimal knowledge and opinions he is quilty is based on the same, it appears if the opinion is different than your own, then you dont feel it is worthy of comment.


I would submit that FBI documents stand very little chance of making it into the case as well.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 10:30:56 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Why is everyone appearing on FOX? What's wrong with CNN? Come on, won't someone think of us poor Arubans?


What I noticed is after CNN reported the false story of a confession and a body found, they have since dropped the story. Interestingly at the time (I was watching 2 tv's!) Fox was saying that the story wasn't true. Maybe CNN is worried about all the rumors and don't wan't to get caught in another false story? :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:30:57 PM
Buckle up kids...there is a drunk wizard in the house!

Absolut, I still stand by my original opinion and would say that Joran was "involved".


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 10:30:59 PM
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 10:31:14 PM
(((KerinTx)))

Oewhiii, wow thanks girl. But I don`t think about it to leave here!
The only way i`m gonna be out of here is when I`m banned! :D
I`m a stuborn Dutch chick so I`m never gonna leave new 'friends'
just b/c they have an opinion of there own...never !!  :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: da wench on June 26, 2005, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "Frank"
Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:




 :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D


WIZ - You don't remember what your theory was?


oh, I remember it well enuf, can't type that much when drinking :D


Speaking of which, time to pour one.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 10:31:28 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Nothing typed here is going to be used in a court of law to convict or free someone so I dont understand what difference it makes what side of Jorans coin we are on.  Opinions he is innocent are based on minimal knowledge and opinions he is quilty is based on the same, it appears if the opinion is different than your own, then you dont feel it is worthy of comment.


I would submit that FBI documents stand very little chance of making it into the case as well.


The FBI has no jurisdiction in this case.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 10:32:12 PM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "HannieC"
Quote
writenow wrote:
HannieC wrote:

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:
<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.



I know what you mean writenow, but on the otherhand, if I hear JUG the come with that whole bunch of friends in the middle of the night! I saw jug and his statements by the way, so I can surely understand why people are react this way if they are sound asleep an suddenly in the middle of the night there are a bunch of people at your door commending and seems threatning you think; What the f###! Sure I understand it I would do the same if my daughter was missing you`re absolutly right maybe i would do something other than that also( hey I`m dutch) But I sure can understand what the reaction of people can be for that affect, And don`t forget JUG says on tv that Joran said to his dad"I want to help dad"!


And Hannie. How did Joran HELP her parents? By lying to them and DELIBERATELY taking them to the wrong place.
A parent gets very frantic when they think their child is in danger. Why can't you understand that? You think having someone yell at you in the middle of the night is WORSE than fearing your daughter is injured or dead????

You're right. This must be a cultural thing. Because I can not for the life of me understand feeling it's more upsetting to be "yelled at" than to have a daughter missing in a foreign country.

Natalee said to her friends as she left CnCs she wanted to go back to the HI. Joran manuevered her into his friends' car and didn't take her back to the HI. What does that tell you?

On this, I agree with Hannie.  I'd like to put in that upon the attitude of Urine when Nat's folks came to his house, if I'da done such, my daddy wudda sumarily kicked me square in the ass, fer bein insolent to my elders! (Any time of day I might stress.)

Also, When I was about Nat's age and I was a.w.o.l. one night (3am+/-) my father tracked down who I was known to be with and he went straight to the home of one of those ppl.  He rowsed those ppl out of bed in the middle of the night.  But at that point, instead of meeting defensive resistence, rather he got cooperation. The younger bro of one I was known to be with went with my father, taking him about 40 miles into the country where our group was expected to be.  
Now the point is he got exceptional cooperation from ppl he did not know. THe young brother also knew that what my father would find when they got there was gonna cause the preverial shit to hit the fan.  (I choose here not to elaborate on what he would have found, but luckily unforseeable circumstances (flat tire)kept me from actually ever going to that cabin in the woods.)
Sorry for the length but, I hope my point is understood!  A STRANGE PARENT IN DISTRESS SEARCHING FOR HELP GOT UNDERSTANDING ASSISTANCE!  This is the way where we come from.  This is why many here do not accept the defensive stonewall encountered by the Twittys at Urines house that night!  Finally, I submit:  THEY WERE COVERING UP THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND/OR PARTICIPATION IN WRONGDOING!  NOT NICE!
Thankyouverymuch!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 10:32:14 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Buckle up kids...there is a drunk wizard in the house!

Absolut, I still stand by my original opinion and would say that Joran was "involved".


I agree.  I think he's definitely involved.  I still don't think it was something that was premeditated (IF she has been killed...and I'm not convinced she's dead), though.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 10:32:20 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Umm didnt Amy disappear at sea on her way to Curacao?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: rogers on June 26, 2005, 10:32:35 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Amy disappeared between Aruba and Curacao..


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:32:37 PM
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 26, 2005, 10:33:06 PM
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Umm didnt Amy disappear at sea on her way to Curacao?

Yes!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 10:33:23 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


What is the cause of death?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 10:33:24 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


I think Amy Bradly actually disappeared from Curacao. But she did mention that some foreign guys wanted to take her to Carlos N Charlies on Aruba...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:33:25 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


no.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 10:33:31 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog


Sorry, but lying that puts innocent people in jail and possibly causes valuable search time to be wasted is important. There is no reason to lie with such a huge fabricated story....one that drags people into the mess if you are innocent. I am convinced Joren is hiding something. Otherwise...he could have just told the truth to begin with.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 10:33:33 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Why would you think he was a sociopath? Lots of us here cant understand how some of you can come to such a conclusion with so little info?

and you COULD say that about anyone involved in this case...
GuyWdog


These are your own words...

"I dont think I could(but I have a conscience)"

Were you not suggesting that Joran could well be holding up under interrogation for this period of time because he does NOT have a conscience?

What are your thoughts about his relationship with a 13-year old girl?

Are you aware he's been seeing a psychiatrist because of his uncontrollable temper?

Why would Deepak, a friend of Joran's, say that "he should have never left the girl alone with the Dutch boy", unless Deepak has knowledge or reason to believe that Joran is dangerous or that Natalee wouldn't be safe with him because he has a violent past with women.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Frank on June 26, 2005, 10:34:00 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog


This board cannot convict anybody. So don't worry about opinions which ultimately prove to be wrong.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:35:18 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Bendex, I have to disagree. Amy did not disappear in Aruba. She disappeared almost a day later....at sea.


Title: sociopath
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 10:35:21 PM
i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 10:35:34 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


I think Amy Bradly actually disappeared from Curacao. But she did mention that some foreign guys wanted to take her to Carlos N Charlies on Aruba...


I thought in the piece I saw about this disappearance, the parents said Amy went to a top deck and was never seen again? If that is true, she could have fallen overboard. JMHO


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:36:20 PM
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


What is the cause of death?


Very difficult to tell lots of damage from water and rocks and enivonment.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 26, 2005, 10:36:49 PM
Scott can you factually prove these words of yours? I would be interested to see the documentation of these Anger management classes? it is stuff like this that has demonized Americans around the world. I base my theories on what has been told us by the authorities, and what has been PROVEN to be TRUTHS. Not what I HEARD`someone's friends friends friends friend said to another peron on another board somewhere on the internet. lets see the proof, please?

GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:37:08 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Bendex, I have to disagree. Amy did not disappear in Aruba. She disappeared almost a day later....at sea.


kerin--hey girl!
i 'm going to bed soon
can i get the simple mind theory?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:37:51 PM
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


no.


Is location enough to hold Joran, it may be the only extra piece of evidence we get.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 10:38:31 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Why is everyone appearing on FOX? What's wrong with CNN? Come on, won't someone think of us poor Arubans?


Has your local cable company given any reason as to why they still haven't added Fox News to their channel base?


Title: Lorenzo info?
Post by: Whodunit? on June 26, 2005, 10:38:35 PM
Arubagirl,

First of all, thanks so much for your incredibly beautiful pics and all of your time & hard work on this.

I found this posted at misfitting.com:

Does anyone know Lorenzo Van Rijn 23, big house at Jaraweg? Used to live on main Savaneta road.

HTH


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 10:38:37 PM
I think abduction story goes to far.  I don't think that Holloway has been abducted because these three nitwits cannot pull of something like that, it demands lots of planning, and routine that is all missing.
Furthermore there has no been recent histories of young woman disapearing in Aruba. Kidnap a young american girl as a sexslave while venezuela columbia is full of beautifull woman, ( my job is traveling around South America whole year trough ) does not make lots of sense to me .

Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.

Trust me, nobody's opinion is going to convict Joran or anyone else.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:38:59 PM
Joran was seeing a psychologists and was having sessions also with at least one of his parents.

Believe me, or you won't, but I'm not going to post where I got the information. Don't want to get anybody in trouble.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Bendex, I have to disagree. Amy did not disappear in Aruba. She disappeared almost a day later....at sea.


kerin--hey girl!
i 'm going to bed soon
can i get the simple mind theory?


Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: coco on June 26, 2005, 10:40:12 PM
G'nite gang ...

I have to log off so I can finish the report due tomorrow which I have now avoided all day while reading here ...

talk about addiction!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 10:40:21 PM
Quote from: "Curiosity"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


I think Amy Bradly actually disappeared from Curacao. But she did mention that some foreign guys wanted to take her to Carlos N Charlies on Aruba...


I thought in the piece I saw about this disappearance, the parents said Amy went to a top deck and was never seen again? If that is true, she could have fallen overboard. JMHO


There was a US Navy officer that met he at a brothel in S America. He said she was asking for help the 2 guys took her "upstairs" . This officer reportedly took a polygraph and passed it.


Title: Re: sociopath
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 10:40:32 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.


the line that separates a narcissist from the sociopath is that the sociopath will have some sort of involvement with criminal activity that usually escalates.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:40:33 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


no.


Is location enough to hold Joran, it may be the only extra piece of evidence we get.


your location is only lighthouse or marriot or others??
whatever else found there would be important...unpredictable imo


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 10:40:44 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog


Everyone is held to the same standard.  But I would add that the conduct of the MB kids is irrelevant in this case more than likely (unless of course you think they caused her death which is absurd).  Regardless they are all held to the same standard, and unfortunately Joran is sadly lacking.  We have no information of any wrong doing by anyone from MB.  Im not saying there wasn't any their probably was, but we dont know of any.  As for Joran lets see he:

Lied through his teeth to the family of a victim
Incriminated two innocent men
and Lied two more times.  

and all of that is fact.  People are bashing Joran and rightly so.  He is either responsible for the disappearence of Natalee or he is responsbile for hindering the investigation in the extreme due to his dishonesty.  Does that make him a murderer or rapist? No.  But all signs point to him having something to do with the disappearence and he has no one to blame for taht but himself.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:41:06 PM
Quote from: "Curiosity"
I thought in the piece I saw about this disappearance, the parents said Amy went to a top deck and was never seen again? If that is true, she could have fallen overboard. JMHO


I believe some time ago, an individual (in the military forces - somebody correct me if I'm wrong) was in a brothel in SA, and a gal fitting her description said her real name was Amy.....this person for whatever reason (married maybe?) did not disclose this until almost a year after the incident.  When investigators or family went there, the brothel was closed, and they had moved on.

Sad sad story.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 10:41:17 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Scott can you factually prove these words of yours? I would be interested to see the documentation of these Anger management classes?

GuyWdog


I believe this issue was confirmed in an interview between Greta and AVDS


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LostinTime on June 26, 2005, 10:41:34 PM
Aruba Girl
Thanks for the pictures you're very lucky to live in such a beautiful place.
Maybe someone can put them in the Link/Reference area.


Title: Re: sociopath
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 10:41:38 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.


While there may not be any correlation between a sociopath and a murderer, there are certain tendencies one must consider.  A sociopath shows no remorse for wrong-doings, and, often they convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong to begin with.  This could WELL be one of the reasons JVS is holding up so well under interrogation (if in fact he is a sociopath).  He might believe that he's done nothing wrong, and that he's above the law.  Often, sociopaths come from middle-class and well-to-do families, and are used to getting away with everything, hence their nonchalant attitudes when something DOES go wrong (Peterson, preppy murderer, etc.).

Just a thought!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 10:41:56 PM
See my comments inline with yours
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded.

You disrespect 99% of the board and expect to have an interactive discussion about your views?  Please.

You are making a generalization which is unfounded for a majority of the posters. No one needs to provide you basis for their theory (which you won't agree with regardless of how it's presented) when they are speculating and presenting their opinions, questions and points of view. You're entitled to believe what you want, but other posters are entitled as well.  Discuss it in a reasonable fashion without insult or inferring they are "wrong".  There's not enough detail to be "wrong here.

If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.

There's no doubt there are some less-than-favorable comments the suspects in question, but they ARE suspects.  If they are innocent, their names will be forgotten by a majority of folks over time. Those in opposition to your view moderate their tone, and you definitely need to moderate yours.

While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.

Dutch law is much more restrictive about evidence than we are here. It's apparent from this post, as I said before you can be perceived as not welcoming thoughts or devate contrary to your own. I suggest you think about that.

 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies.

They are suspects; naturally they will be held to a different standard and pointing that out over and over and over without contributing to existing discussions is pointless and inflammatory. And the MB students are teenagers acting like teens. I'm sure you did the same growing up  - we all did.

I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?


It's posts like these which cause undue unnecessary amounts of stress and tension on this board.  Communicate with respect and not these passive aggressive posts and we'll all be fine.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:42:02 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
Joran was seeing a psychologists and was having sessions also with at least one of his parents.

Believe me, or you won't, but I'm not going to post where I got the information. Don't want to get anybody in trouble.


I will vouch for this. Seperate source.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 10:42:14 PM
Thanks, everyone, for your feedback on my "underground party" theory.

I copy-pasted everyone's feedback into a Word document so that I can digest it and see if I can plug the holes in my theory.

The basic holes are:

1. I need a location for this party!  As Arubagirl said, the island is small and word gets around.  However, Lorenzo is known to have underground parties in his more isolated home.  He is the Lorenzo that the police questioned about 2 weeks ago.
2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.

Is there another hole, or did I capture the two basic problems?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:42:19 PM
THANKS, greatowl


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 10:42:20 PM
arubagirl

Thanks, that is what I am trying to figure out. Surely if someone, a citizen saw him walking alone or with a girl, after all this press, wouldn't that have come out, or been told to the LE?...It makes no sense to me that we have heard from no one who saw him that night.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 26, 2005, 10:42:37 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Bendex, I have to disagree. Amy did not disappear in Aruba. She disappeared almost a day later....at sea.


kerin--hey girl!
i 'm going to bed soon
can i get the simple mind theory?


Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.

It falls with Joran, Deepak and Satish....in that order.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:43:18 PM
I did see this earlie today absolut-
thanx..silly me i thought it was a little more complx!


Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.[/quote]


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:43:34 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "bendex"
I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place


Bendex, I have to disagree. Amy did not disappear in Aruba. She disappeared almost a day later....at sea.


kerin--hey girl!
i 'm going to bed soon
can i get the simple mind theory?




Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.
Thanks Absolut!! I was still typing. LOL


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 10:43:55 PM
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


What is the cause of death?


Very difficult to tell lots of damage from water and rocks and enivonment.


You couldn't convict of murder or any other crime except something similar to lying to the police. It is to bad that his lies have destroyed any and all credibility so that even if he tells what happened without some evidence we may never know.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 10:43:55 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "Cerulean"
"Underground Party"  Sunday night, school night, small island with 100,000 people on it, International School as 9 kids in a class.  Not likely, and if it was people would have known about it and the kids would have squealed already.


I agree with that.  So, ok, this isn't a party of International School kids.  But from an earlier post (about 10 days ago), these parties do exist and they are illegal if they are held without a prior permit from the police.  It has to be a party that Joran knew about, not the brothers, since this theory has the brothers dropping Natalee and Joran off.

Let me please try again, and keep shooting at this theory if you would:

1.. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Joran calls Deepak for help at 2:40.  Deepak says no, I'm not getting involved with your rough friends, you handle it.  Joran walks home, then text-messages Deepak that he made it home (maybe that is a coverup text-message, one for the police to find later?).  Now what do the 3 guys do? Yikes. They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?

I jus gotta say, after bein in the pokey for what 3 weeks?, if this were what happened, Urine would have spilt it by now!  If so, he could produce much evidence to coroborate the story.  He might be in trouble for it but then again where is he now?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 10:43:55 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
Why walk home in the middle of the night when you have to do final exams in the morning ?

Why sent a message to kalpoe walking home

If I have a finalk exam in the morning  I would like to hit the sack and ask for a pickup.


right, and according to arubagirl, there could have been a good chance he could have been seen walking. Odd :!:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:44:10 PM
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "arubagirl"
absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.


good one.
next what if  :?: absolut


No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?


no.


Is location enough to hold Joran, it may be the only extra piece of evidence we get.


your location is only lighthouse or marriot or others??
whatever else found there would be important...unpredictable imo


Yep 1 of 2 locations. She is clothed. That is it, no evidence of sex.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 10:44:16 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Nothing typed here is going to be used in a court of law to convict or free someone so I dont understand what difference it makes what side of Jorans coin we are on.  Opinions he is innocent are based on minimal knowledge and opinions he is quilty is based on the same, it appears if the opinion is different than your own, then you dont feel it is worthy of comment.
 

taz you are so right, and at least we have to read the other side to answer it and some of it might actually rub off.  i think it unwise to judge either way without sufficient information and think name calling, demonization and personalization is petty and juvenile.  sometimes though i think we are taking positions just for the sake of argument.  that is ok too.  the free exchange of ideas is what this is all about.  we should all strive to keep it civil.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 10:45:06 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
THANKS, greatowl


that ok, cause I give a whooooot! :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 10:45:20 PM
runaway bride is a liar, with fake susan smith tears. It makes me sick.

oops,. sorry OT. Last time tonite :P


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 10:46:15 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog
<<

Most of us have stated our sources/reasons/logic until we just can't keep doing it over and over several times a day.  Maybe a tiptoe through the archives would answer most of your questions for while there is a great deal of emotion, I don't think that is really what is behind the vast majority of theories.  

No, you have that backwards for this blog has held the MB kids to a much higher standard than Joren who has been allowed to do pretty much anything for years.  The MB kids are trashed because they do not talk to the MSM and tell things that never happened.  If they all say the same they have been given a script and if they say something different, gotcha!  Joren changes his story three times, and well, bless his heart!  He kept lying during the crucial first hours when there might have been a chance of finding her alive, fingered two innocent guards and got them arrested and still did not come clean.  He was perfectly willing to have them take the blame for this if he could pull that off.

You see nothing wrong with those two secrutiy guards being identified by Joren and Crue and arrested on their word?  

His mother says he is in anger management therapy for kicking his little brothers and he threw a kid through a plate glass window, etc. starts two fights with the MB kids and on and on.

Why are you such a fan of Joren and other than the emotion which you blame on others, what is your source or reasoning?  His behavior seems like the good boy his mother says he is who doesn't drink or do drugs, etc. despite all those photos on the web of him doing so and eyewitnesses to the contrary.  Why do his friends tease him about roofies on some of the sites?  And he is not the one missing, one of the MB kids is and he was the last seen with her and pounds his chest when asked what might have happened to her/  There are lots of reasons why some of us do not think he is just a good sweetheart but not much just based on pure emotion.  So why do you think none of this matters, not even sending two innocent men to prison to try to g et them to take his punishment?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: PoorPaulaNNJ on June 26, 2005, 10:46:22 PM
Hi, All;
Do I dare ask.....any developments?
 :shock:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 10:46:32 PM
With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies.

They are suspects; naturally they will be held to a different standard and pointing that out over and over and over without contributing to existing discussions is pointless and inflammatory. And the MB students are teenagers acting like teens. I'm sure you did the same growing up - we all did.

I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?



I did not see the original post so don't know who said it, but that part about running people off i probably true.

First, there is no hypocacy in fact.  Joran is underage.  Even in Aruba.  The MB kids were not.  

Yes they were all teens having "fun" and probably being rowdy and partying.

THEY were not the last ones to be seen with Natalee.  The three that were arrested were.

The character of the other kids on this trip has zero to do with those who took Natalee away.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Thanks, everyone, for your feedback on my "underground party" theory.

I copy-pasted everyone's feedback into a Word document so that I can digest it and see if I can plug the holes in my theory.

The basic holes are:

1. I need a location for this party!  As Arubagirl said, the island is small and word gets around.  However, Lorenzo is known to have underground parties in his more isolated home.  He is the Lorenzo that the police questioned about 2 weeks ago.
2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.

Is there another hole, or did I capture the two basic problems?


well, okay, is there a hole in lorenzoes head??
he is nowhere in this...did he take off??


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: rogers on June 26, 2005, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
arubagirl

Thanks, that is what I am trying to figure out. Surely if someone, a citizen saw him walking alone or with a girl, after all this press, wouldn't that have come out, or been told to the LE?...It makes no sense to me that we have heard from no one who saw him that night.

Most tourist are too into their own vacation experience to notice others, especially after 11pm.

The beach between the Mariott and Hi is very dark.  Easy place to sneak up on unsuspecting persons.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:47:44 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.

Is there another hole, or did I capture the two basic problems?


I think you have a good handle on it....my concern was why would Deepak and Satish sit quietly in jail for someone they don't even know very well???


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 10:48:54 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.

Is there another hole, or did I capture the two basic problems?


I think you have a good handle on it....my concern was why would Deepak and Satish sit quietly in jail for someone they don't even know very well???


1. They both lied and hampered a kidnapping investigation.

and or

2. One or both have something more to do with it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: absolut on June 26, 2005, 10:49:12 PM
Now to flip the body discussion on you. What are scenarios where Joran wants the body found for his own sake?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 26, 2005, 10:49:38 PM
A personall friend of mine was raped in Aruba over 8 years ago , she was staying at friends house" a doctor and his family who had hs practice over there " . Apperently the house was near where the fisherman worked.

Apprently a fisherman ( she taught it was a fisherman as he smelt like fish )  came in via the window Put a knife on her troath and commited this awfull crime .  

The crime was comitted while the family was sleeping in other rooms in the house.




Now question , has there been any rape cases the recent years in Aruba ?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 10:49:54 PM
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: LilOrphan on June 26, 2005, 10:50:19 PM
Quote from: "arubagirl"
LilOrphan, probably, there aren't that many Trappenberg here, but I don't know how close the relation is.


Thanks again. You are a wealth of information.  I read somewhere else she's in the whole Joran/Jaime tickle friend link.  Sure someone else has pointed this out, but wasn't sure if the relationship to RT existed.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 26, 2005, 10:50:23 PM
Finally a REAL Debate that can be based on thruths, and knowledge and experience. thanx

GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 10:51:05 PM
friend of monkey, all I know is that Lorenzo was questioned and released.

arubagirl, NativeLingo, or Americaninaruba may have more information, but I assume that Lorenzo is just back in his normal day-to-day life now.  He is not part of the current investigation.

But, he was.  He was questioned.  He is a "bad news" guy on the island.

Once Natalee is in the car, I can see a youthful Joran saying to her "hey, I know this great party to go to."  Maybe,,... "some of the musicians from the big concert might be there".

But as Arubagirl stated, she knows of no party that occurred that night on the island.  And word travels fast there.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:52:02 PM
Quote from: "PoorPaulaNNJ"
Hi, All;
Do I dare ask.....any developments?
 :shock:


Well - since when?   :)

Croes is going to be released tomorrow.  Pops VDS is out.

A lot of contentious individuals present and accounted for this evening.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 10:52:03 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"

2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.


Greta talked about this in one of her last reports. She said that she didn't think Joran having his friends cover for him made him look guilty. He may have just been scared. Or maybe he didn't want people to know that he had some relationship with Natalee. And remember , Greta is a former prosecutor. :roll:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 10:52:09 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog
<<

Most of us have stated our sources/reasons/logic until we just can't keep doing it over and over several times a day.  Maybe a tiptoe through the archives would answer most of your questions for while there is a great deal of emotion, I don't think that is really what is behind the vast majority of theories.  

No, you have that backwards for this blog has held the MB kids to a much higher standard than Joren who has been allowed to do pretty much anything for years.  The MB kids are trashed because they do not talk to the MSM and tell things that never happened.  If they all say the same they have been given a script and if they say something different, gotcha!  Joren changes his story three times, and well, bless his heart!  He kept lying during the crucial first hours when there might have been a chance of finding her alive, fingered two innocent guards and got them arrested and still did not come clean.  He was perfectly willing to have them take the blame for this if he could pull that off.

You see nothing wrong with those two secrutiy guards being identified by Joren and Crue and arrested on their word?  

His mother says he is in anger management therapy for kicking his little brothers and he threw a kid through a plate glass window, etc. starts two fights with the MB kids and on and on.

Why are you such a fan of Joren and other than the emotion which you blame on others, what is your source or reasoning?  His behavior seems like the good boy his mother says he is who doesn't drink or do drugs, etc. despite all those photos on the web of him doing so and eyewitnesses to the contrary.  Why do his friends tease him about roofies on some of the sites?  And he is not the one missing, one of the MB kids is and he was the last seen with her and pounds his chest when asked what might have happened to her/  There are lots of reasons why some of us do not think he is just a good sweetheart but not much just based on pure emotion.  So why do you think none of this matters, not even sending two innocent men to prison to try to g et them to take his punishment?


Thank you Anna.....well said. And I especially notice the piece about the higher standard of the MB kids.....isn't that the truth. They gave so much in the early days here, only to be run off. It breaks my heart to see what happened to them here. I enjoyed reading what they had to say, since they weren't just speculating ideas.....they lived part of the real story.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: PoorPaulaNNJ on June 26, 2005, 10:52:53 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "PoorPaulaNNJ"
Hi, All;
Do I dare ask.....any developments?
 :shock:


Well - since when?   :)

Croes is going to be released tomorrow.  Pops VDS is out.

A lot of contentious individuals present and accounted for this evening.


Hmmm, what about EquuSearch? Any news from them?


Title: Re: sociopath
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 10:53:07 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "iquitos"
i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.


the line that separates a narcissist from the sociopath is that the sociopath will have some sort of involvement with criminal activity that usually escalates.


 but not murder, i suppose.  not a shrink.  was there a post on hasibokos or was this in the dutch pressabout his therapy?   i forgot  is sociopathic behaviour a form of insanity.  don't we all have a little of these in us.  is it about aressted development.  are all teens dealing with narcisism as they grow into their bodies?  :oops:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: DT on June 26, 2005, 10:53:15 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Probably so, but it doesn't bode well when you have allegations of anger problems and you are seeing a shrink.  Add to that his involvment in the disappearence (not saying to what extent) and you have a situation that doesn't bode well for Natalee.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 10:53:23 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Indyfreelancer on June 26, 2005, 10:53:23 PM
Quote from: "Curiosity"
The released suspects seem to have upset quite a few people's theories. But to me, my ideas are still the same. I never thought that either Steve Croes or papa VDS were necessary to the situation with Joren. They were interesting to speculate more scenarios....but still not necessary to come up with scenarios that could have happened had they never have been suspects.

At this point, I still beleive there is something amiss when three boys plot together to tell a lie about their whereabouts that night. That lie even put two innocent victims in jail (the out of work guards). That original story has caused countless days to be lost, in searching the correct area. (I'm assuming that the beach story is the closest story we have to the truth thus far.) What was the purpose of this original story? If Joren and Natalee were left on the beach....why not just tell the truth to begin with?? Nope, when a person fabircates a story to cover up something....dragging innocent people into their mess (and maybe even two more innocents if the brothers turn out to be innocent), then I have to beleive something is being hidden by JVDS who was the last person to see Natalee alive.

Maybe Joren didn't murder Natalee, but something did happen that caused him to fabricate lies. I'm still sticking with the theory that Joren knows a lot more than he has told to date. I just haven't a clue as to what could be so dire as to necessitate lying and getting freinds to join in the lies? But it does make either murder, manslaughter or even an accident very suspicious under the circumstances.

Now as to why hasn't he broken yet??? His friends have....otherwise we wouldn't have the story about Joren being dropped on the beach along with Natalee while the friends drove off....and Joren walking home later. Is it the truth?? Who knows? But I doubt the brothers would have changed their stories putting Joren in the defensive if it was another lie.  Maybe Joren thinks holding out is better than chancing several years more in jail! Let's not forget that his dad was in the legal field, and I'm sure Joren's heard a lot of legal stories during his youth to refer to.


Curiosity - I think you are on to something here.  Joran and maybe Deepak and Satish are definitely guilty of something.  

Maybe they really did drop the two off at the Marriott.  However, that's where the lies begin.  Joran goes too far, NH says "no", but he doesn't stop.  After its over, she says "leave me alone" and he does - figuring that she's leaving in a couple of hours and there's no way that she'll call the cops.

Then what happens?  I see several scenarios:

1.  NH goes for a dip in the ocean to "clean off" and being slightly inebriated, drowns.  If so why no body?  Not likely.

2.  A distraught NH is abducted on her walk back to the HI.  Possible and since it may mean that she's still alive, one that I would like to believe.

3.  NH can't bear to go back to her friends and family after what has happened to her and decides to run away.  Maybe, but no money, no passport - where would she go?  Also seems out of character.

Again, just speculation on my part, but given what little we know, I think the only explanation is that the 3 in custody are guilty of something, but really don't know where she is.  Otherwise, they would have broken by now.  

Then again, why haven't they admitted what they're guilty of under intense questioning???  AAHHH, this is driving me crazy!

Also, on a final note, what does NH's character really have to do with anything (other than to establish the likelihood of #3)??  Good person, bad person, sober, drunk, high on drugs, or not, she didn't deserve whatever it is that has happened to her.  She is the victim - I think some have forgotten that.

Peace!  I'm out...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: golden on June 26, 2005, 10:53:26 PM
Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Oh gawd.  Geraldo was just brushing the hair off of Steve Croes momma face.  How sweet of him! :lol:


Is he OCD?


No, he's just a big old FLIRT.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Mom in Ark on June 26, 2005, 10:53:43 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "bendex"
Why walk home in the middle of the night when you have to do final exams in the morning ?

Why sent a message to kalpoe walking home

If I have a finalk exam in the morning  I would like to hit the sack and ask for a pickup.


right, and according to arubagirl, there could have been a good chance he could have been seen walking. Odd :!:


I thought the finals were the next week.


Title: Question?
Post by: Whodunit? on June 26, 2005, 10:54:15 PM
Hey, all, why did PVDS get out tonite and SC has to wait until tomorrow?  Didn't he have a ride home?


Hmmmmmmm


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 26, 2005, 10:54:57 PM
Here is the link to Cal Tech, again. The Profile of the Sociopath. All it lacked was a picture of Joran van der Sloot, at the side.

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html

Actually, there is one characteristic that doesn't quite fit. It claims that sociopaths tend to be slackers and poor students. But it is almost the rule that narcissists (the larval form of sociopaths) do quite well in school and in business. When the narcissist learns that he can "beat the system," he becomes a slacker, and academic performance drops off. Joran appears to be at that point in the development cycle. He is emerging as a full-fledged maggot.

Note that most narcissists and sociopaths fit the profile TO A TEE, so it ain't exactly rocket science spotting one (thank God).

If you need for me to repost my Profile of the Narcissist, and show how Joran fits the profile to a TEE, I shall do so. But only upon request.

And why should any of you give a sh*t? Because psychologist are unanimous about one point. After a sociopath gets away with ONE major crime, LOOK OUT. There's no stopping him then.

And that's a fact, Jack.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ExTexinAZ on June 26, 2005, 10:54:57 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.

Is there another hole, or did I capture the two basic problems?


I think you have a good handle on it....my concern was why would Deepak and Satish sit quietly in jail for someone they don't even know very well???


1. They both lied and hampered a kidnapping investigation.

and or

2. One or both have something more to do with it.


Or someone threatened to give them a Columbian necktie?  Pure speculation on my part, believe me.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: candygirl on June 26, 2005, 10:54:58 PM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
Scott can you factually prove these words of yours? I would be interested to see the documentation of these Anger management classes? it is stuff like this that has demonized Americans around the world. I base my theories on what has been told us by the authorities, and what has been PROVEN to be TRUTHS. Not what I HEARD`someone's friends friends friends friend said to another peron on another board somewhere on the internet. lets see the proof, please?

GuyWdog


Scroll down til you see joran's pic' and read up;

http://www.hasibokos.com/hbknews/default.asp?view=day&blogDate=6/11/2005  


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 10:55:34 PM
Ok, the party is on a yacht.  Someone Joran met at the Casino.  People who cam into town for the Soul Festival.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:55:43 PM
Not so sure we would have evidence of sex at all after this amount of time if she is in the water.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:55:44 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... :lol:


I don't suffer from insanity....I enjoy every minute of it.


Title: Re: Question?
Post by: klaasend on June 26, 2005, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: "Whodunit?"
Hey, all, why did PVDS get out tonite and SC has to wait until tomorrow?  Didn't he have a ride home?


Hmmmmmmm

SC can't get out until his 8 days are done...which is tomorrow.
PVDS was only being held for 48 hours and it was already over 48 hours.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 10:56:03 PM
Just something of my own curiosity.  Yes, it does have to do with C&C's.

When was the photo of Nat and her friends at the beach taken?

does anyone know for sure what that bracelet on her wrist was for?

I know that in Puerto Vallarta such bracelets were given out on boat excursions such as the Pirate Cruise.  They were given to young girls who wanted to get into "Senor Frogs."  This is another one of the Anderson group Bar/Grills of which C & C's belong.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 10:56:23 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


You are very right, Hannie.  People in the US go to a psychiatrist for lots of reasons...some valid, some not.  And typically, when there is a high profile crime, that information comes out ASAP. "XXX murder suspect has been seeing therapist for 3 years to deal with anger management issues", etc.  I suppose that is why many people are interested in Joran's possible use of a psychiatrist.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 10:56:46 PM
what wuz that? did ya'll hear sumthin? eye'm gittin paranoid.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: friend of monkeys on June 26, 2005, 10:56:48 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
friend of monkey, all I know is that Lorenzo was questioned and released.

arubagirl, NativeLingo, or Americaninaruba may have more information, but I assume that Lorenzo is just back in his normal day-to-day life now.  He is not part of the current investigation.

But, he was.  He was questioned.  He is a "bad news" guy on the island.

Once Natalee is in the car, I can see a youthful Joran saying to her "hey, I know this great party to go to."  Maybe,,... "some of the musicians from the big concert might be there".

But as Arubagirl stated, she knows of no party that occurred that night on the island.  And word travels fast there.


maybe it was a very small party?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 10:56:57 PM
Sorry my dear new friends, just a thought........

TTownMike  i`m agree with a lot of youre statements, but I don`t like the fact that that the people are =namecalling such as {edited} his name is JORAN, And {edited}...pfff please opinion is ok but this people are slandered tru the mud and we know sh%t I can`t follow that ..I blame my dutch inheiritage than, but we and I are not just to this namecalling if we don`t know jack,,,, sorry sue me :lol:  I don`t like that! But hey I guess thats my problem....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 10:57:08 PM
I asked this before, but it may have gotten lost in our frenzied posting...any news from TX search group?  Last update I had was from early this morning.


Title: Re: sociopath
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 10:57:36 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.
<<

Is insanity defined differently under Dutch law because in American law, the presence of mind to CYA disproves insanity, mere knowledge of right from wrong is the only consideration.

His mother said he kicked his little brothers which seems pretty nasty to me and makes me think that is why he lives in an apartment away from them.  Threw a kid through a plate glass and tried to start two fights with kids from MB.  But we have been over this over and over and either you see his problem or you do not.  Or some may chose to over look it if it does not fit in with their theories but his parents put him in treatment for it so I would gather they have a reason for doing so.  It was another shrink who said he exhihbited all the classical symptons of a sociopath and I do not know where you heard they are not associated with murder for almost all who commit that crime are one from serial killers to the Scott Peterson types.  Why do you think they can kill their own wife/child like that?  Not a fit of rage but cold blooded, calm murder without consicience, see Ted Bundy as well.

Scott Peterson sort of resembles Joren now that I think about it.  Maybe that is why I do not find him attaractive and cannot imagine NH would either.  She had better taste than Joren.


Title: Ahhhhhhhhh
Post by: Whodunit? on June 26, 2005, 10:57:57 PM
Makes some sense I guess.....thanks!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 10:58:26 PM
I want to clarify that a BIG party in the outdoors would have not been a secret for long, especially with a case like this.

A relatively small party in someone's house that doesn't have a lot of neighbours (there are several here), that's a possibility.

About the boat party, that's a possibility, K in TX


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 10:58:58 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... :lol:


I don't suffer from insanity....I enjoy every minute of it.


Hahaha nice quote... Think I'll steal it!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: PoorPaulaNNJ on June 26, 2005, 10:59:04 PM
:D Hi, wwizard.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 10:59:33 PM
wow...I like this guy on Geraldo right now!!! The pastor


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Lausa on June 26, 2005, 10:59:46 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


There probably aren't as many people actually seeing a psychiatrist as there are people who need to! lol


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 10:59:49 PM
Quote from: "Professor"
After a sociopath gets away with ONE major crime, LOOK OUT. There's no stopping him then.


If, in fact, Joran is responsible for Natalee's death, it is more likely than not that this is not his first major crime, just his first crime resulting in death.

I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tila_Bean on June 26, 2005, 10:59:54 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
I asked this before, but it may have gotten lost in our frenzied posting...any news from TX search group?  Last update I had was from early this morning.


Nope.  I just heard they were going to search some "hot spots", but they are not disclosing those locations of course. :shock:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 11:01:17 PM
Kerin, etals, I like that theory too!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 11:01:38 PM
Quote from: "GreatOwl"
When was the photo of Nat and her friends at the beach taken?


The photo was taken earlier the same day that NH disappeared.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 11:01:40 PM
That`s why I personally hate this mediacircus....b/c people are being tried in the media and, jury`s are effected by those in my opinion!And I think Scott isn`t  guilty... but hey that`s another topic so spare me...and do not hang me for that... :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:01:44 PM
Quote from: "rogers"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
arubagirl

Thanks, that is what I am trying to figure out. Surely if someone, a citizen saw him walking alone or with a girl, after all this press, wouldn't that have come out, or been told to the LE?...It makes no sense to me that we have heard from no one who saw him that night.

Most tourist are too into their own vacation experience to notice others, especially after 11pm.

The beach between the Mariott and Hi is very dark.  Easy place to sneak up on unsuspecting persons.


Thanks rogers, But I can't help but think, that even after leaving from a vacation and hearing all the press, a witness would have reported seeing a man walking along that road during that timeframe.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 11:02:09 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
I asked this before, but it may have gotten lost in our frenzied posting...any news from TX search group?  Last update I had was from early this morning.


I heard there was a false alarm. Something on the sea floor turned out to be nothing. I really doubt they will find anything under the water. Even with the sonar...


Title: Re: sociopath
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:03:11 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "iquitos"
i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.


the line that separates a narcissist from the sociopath is that the sociopath will have some sort of involvement with criminal activity that usually escalates.


 but not murder, i suppose.  not a shrink.  was there a post on hasibokos or was this in the dutch pressabout his therapy?   i forgot  is sociopathic behaviour a form of insanity.  don't we all have a little of these in us.  is it about aressted development.  are all teens dealing with narcisism as they grow into their bodies?  :oops:


Psychological definitions are not going to be so precise as to exclude anything other than murder within a particular personality disorder.  That would mean they would have to create one particular PD for one specific crime.  Criminal Activity is only included in a couple of the personality disorder characteristics and Sociopath/AntiSocial Disorder is one of them.  Criminal behavior is defined as any behavior that is against the law.  Also alot of disorders overlap and many have traits that are a combination of disorders.  

Read this little exerpt and just see how many of these traits might apply in this case.
http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
I asked this before, but it may have gotten lost in our frenzied posting...any news from TX search group?  Last update I had was from early this morning.


Nope.  I just heard they were going to search some "hot spots", but they are not disclosing those locations of course. :shock:


last I heard they sent a diving bell down into a trash dump (60 feet deep) and could not find anything.  I assumed this was in the water, but maybe not.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 11:03:57 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
And I think Scott isn`t  guilty...


What????


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 11:04:02 PM
Rogers, locals drive there too, Casino / Hotel people just coming down from their shift, people who went out till late going out for a drive....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Sorry my dear new friends, just a thought........

TTownMike  i`m agree with a lot of youre statements, but I don`t like the fact that that the people are =namecalling such as {edited} his name is JORAN, And {edited} ...pfff please opinion is ok but this people are slandered tru the mud and we know sh%t I can`t follow that ..I blame my dutch inheiritage than, but we and I are not just to this namecalling if we don`t know jack,,,, sorry sue me :lol:  I don`t like that! But hey I guess thats my problem....


Yeah, I'd like to rag on TTownMike for that but RB would kick me out ASAP! :shock:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: igsigs on June 26, 2005, 11:04:21 PM
Maybe i missed it...but where is the apology that the 3 amigos owe natalee, natalee's family and all of Aruba for that matter? If they are innocent the main reason they are still in jail is because of their own lies. The monumental agony that these 3 have laid at the feet of the Holloway family is without excuse. every lie they tell jerks the Holloways back and forth. running to the lighthouse, draining ponds by the hotel, searching the brothels...all ending in pain and fear of not knowing. what is the next story that will taunt Nat's family and end in heatbreak? i know joren feels sorry for his mom. i know the Kalpoes apologized to the security guards. when will these 3 step up and apologize to Nat and her family for the lies?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: RB on June 26, 2005, 11:05:12 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
Sorry my dear new friends, just a thought........

TTownMike  i`m agree with a lot of youre statements, but I don`t like the fact that that the people are =namecalling such as {edited} his name is JORAN, And {edited}...pfff please opinion is ok but this people are slandered tru the mud and we know sh%t I can`t follow that ..I blame my dutch inheiritage than, but we and I are not just to this namecalling if we don`t know jack,,,, sorry sue me :lol:  I don`t like that! But hey I guess thats my problem....


Yeah, I'd like to rag on TTownMike for that but RB would kick me out ASAP! :shock:


somebody say my name? :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:05:58 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


well I wouldn't say a lot, and there are several types of psyche help: there are psychiatrists ( prescribe meds);psychologists ( counseling ); then there are therapists or counselors who may not have a medical degree.
It really is not a big deal. I think the reason it is an issue in this case, is because joran apparently has an anger problem he needs counseling for, combined with being suspected of a possible violent crime. That is the connection I see anyway.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
what wuz that? did ya'll hear sumthin? eye'm gittin paranoid.


GIVE ME THAT NEW THEORY, WIZ!!!  :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: rogers on June 26, 2005, 11:07:09 PM
My brain isn't exactly running on all cylinders at that hour.  I don't think I'm alone in that malady.

-- should have noted that I have documented evidence from many here that you have this problem too :-)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 11:08:25 PM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Kerin, etals, I like that theory too!


that's because you are "one of us" TT.  :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:08:34 PM
Quote from: "Professor"
Here is the link to Cal Tech, again. The Profile of the Sociopath. All it lacked was a picture of Joran van der Sloot, at the side.

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html

Actually, there is one characteristic that doesn't quite fit. It claims that sociopaths tend to be slackers and poor students. But it is almost the rule that narcissists (the larval form of sociopaths) do quite well in school and in business. When the narcissist learns that he can "beat the system," he becomes a slacker, and academic performance drops off. Joran appears to be at that point in the development cycle. He is emerging as a full-fledged maggot.

Note that most narcissists and sociopaths fit the profile TO A TEE, so it ain't exactly rocket science spotting one (thank God).

If you need for me to repost my Profile of the Narcissist, and show how Joran fits the profile to a TEE, I shall do so. But only upon request.

And why should any of you give a sh*t? Because psychologist are unanimous about one point. After a sociopath gets away with ONE major crime, LOOK OUT. There's no stopping him then.

And that's a fact, Jack.


Alot of the same characteristics apply to the narcissist and the sociopath, the part where they crossover so to speak is where criminal activity is involved that usually escalates.  Starting off with petty crime to more advanced aspects of rape, burglery and murder.

I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 11:08:34 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "wwizard"
what wuz that? did ya'll hear sumthin? eye'm gittin paranoid.


GIVE ME THAT NEW THEORY, WIZ!!!  :lol:


He's busy having toddies this evening....as detailed as his theories can be, he'd be here until next week if he starts tonight!

 :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:08:37 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... :lol:


just ask Tom Cruise 8)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 11:08:46 PM
Rogers, I was talking about no one seeing him while walking home. His route won't take him long near a beach.

At some hotels shifts run from 7-3


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 26, 2005, 11:09:36 PM
Quote from: "HannieC"
That`s why I personally hate this mediacircus....b/c people are being tried in the media and, jury`s are effected by those in my opinion!And I think Scott isn`t  guilty... but hey that`s another topic so spare me...and do not hang me for that... :wink:


I can respect that....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: "Another K in Texas"
Ok, the party is on a yacht.  Someone Joran met at the Casino.  People who cam into town for the Soul Festival.


I LIKE this theory.  Arubagirl, could this occur?  Were there yachts in town for the Soul Festival?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 11:09:59 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... :lol:


just ask Tom Cruise 8)


We should all take vitamins to cure our problems. ;)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 26, 2005, 11:10:25 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Thanks, everyone, for your feedback on my "underground party" theory.

I copy-pasted everyone's feedback into a Word document so that I can digest it and see if I can plug the holes in my theory.

The basic holes are:

1. I need a location for this party!  As Arubagirl said, the island is small and word gets around.  However, Lorenzo is known to have underground parties in his more isolated home.  He is the Lorenzo that the police questioned about 2 weeks ago.
2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.

Is there another hole, or did I capture the two basic problems?


I think that is great,,(because I agree),,I have been bothered by the Mariott....?  after parties...lots of places in a large resort to have these, and I would bet the young crowd knows about them,,  On leaving CnCs, to to Mariott,,small group,,more drugs,,possibly after ruffie at CnC, my imagination runs away as to what could have gone on at this party..There are always big dumpsters,,,other ways if there are enough people involved that are in the know...wanted to pass this along....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 11:10:31 PM
Yes, Dallas Also. They moored right in front of Havana Beach Club


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ExTexinAZ on June 26, 2005, 11:10:33 PM
I've just made a personal promise to myself to be more aware of my surroundings.  You never know when it might come in handy.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:10:40 PM
Quote from: "Indyfreelancer"
Quote from: "Curiosity"
The released suspects seem to have upset quite a few people's theories. But to me, my ideas are still the same. I never thought that either Steve Croes or papa VDS were necessary to the situation with Joren. They were interesting to speculate more scenarios....but still not necessary to come up with scenarios that could have happened had they never have been suspects.

At this point, I still beleive there is something amiss when three boys plot together to tell a lie about their whereabouts that night. That lie even put two innocent victims in jail (the out of work guards). That original story has caused countless days to be lost, in searching the correct area. (I'm assuming that the beach story is the closest story we have to the truth thus far.) What was the purpose of this original story? If Joren and Natalee were left on the beach....why not just tell the truth to begin with?? Nope, when a person fabircates a story to cover up something....dragging innocent people into their mess (and maybe even two more innocents if the brothers turn out to be innocent), then I have to beleive something is being hidden by JVDS who was the last person to see Natalee alive.

Maybe Joren didn't murder Natalee, but something did happen that caused him to fabricate lies. I'm still sticking with the theory that Joren knows a lot more than he has told to date. I just haven't a clue as to what could be so dire as to necessitate lying and getting freinds to join in the lies? But it does make either murder, manslaughter or even an accident very suspicious under the circumstances.

Now as to why hasn't he broken yet??? His friends have....otherwise we wouldn't have the story about Joren being dropped on the beach along with Natalee while the friends drove off....and Joren walking home later. Is it the truth?? Who knows? But I doubt the brothers would have changed their stories putting Joren in the defensive if it was another lie.  Maybe Joren thinks holding out is better than chancing several years more in jail! Let's not forget that his dad was in the legal field, and I'm sure Joren's heard a lot of legal stories during his youth to refer to.


Curiosity - I think you are on to something here.  Joran and maybe Deepak and Satish are definitely guilty of something.  

Maybe they really did drop the two off at the Marriott.  However, that's where the lies begin.  Joran goes too far, NH says "no", but he doesn't stop.  After its over, she says "leave me alone" and he does - figuring that she's leaving in a couple of hours and there's no way that she'll call the cops.

Then what happens?  I see several scenarios:

1.  NH goes for a dip in the ocean to "clean off" and being slightly inebriated, drowns.  If so why no body?  Not likely.

2.  A distraught NH is abducted on her walk back to the HI.  Possible and since it may mean that she's still alive, one that I would like to believe.

3.  NH can't bear to go back to her friends and family after what has happened to her and decides to run away.  Maybe, but no money, no passport - where would she go?  Also seems out of character.

Again, just speculation on my part, but given what little we know, I think the only explanation is that the 3 in custody are guilty of something, but really don't know where she is.  Otherwise, they would have broken by now.  

Then again, why haven't they admitted what they're guilty of under intense questioning???  AAHHH, this is driving me crazy!

Also, on a final note, what does NH's character really have to do with anything (other than to establish the likelihood of #3)??  Good person, bad person, sober, drunk, high on drugs, or not, she didn't deserve whatever it is that has happened to her.  She is the victim - I think some have forgotten that.

Peace!  I'm out...


good post Indy, and I keep bouncing between all of them. I am coming to your area in a few days for a wedding!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 26, 2005, 11:10:43 PM
Anna , back on page 31 you stated this:

"His mother says he is in anger management therapy for kicking his little brothers and he threw a kid through a plate glass window, etc. starts two fights with the MB kids and on and on."

1) Where did his mother say he was in anger management....I believe that is a rumor floating around from day one.  Anita never said that that I can remember.

2)  What is your source for the statement that he threw a kid through a plate glass window?  Again, I've heard that rumor....  a guy named Tsunder over on Riehlworldview.com said it never happened.

3) Bryan Reynolds said that there was "a pushing match" at CnCs with Joran on the second night they were there.  We don't know who started it or why.  I could make a snide remark about the twins being related to Jug....and insinuate they caused it, but I simply don't know who started it.

Where is the source for the second fight please.

I think it's these kind of, probably well-meaning but probably incorrect, statements that get rumors started.

If you have sources or quotes, please let me know.

thanks...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:11:05 PM
Quote from: "igsigs"
Maybe i missed it...but where is the apology that the 3 amigos owe natalee, natalee's family and all of Aruba for that matter? If they are innocent the main reason they are still in jail is because of their own lies. The monumental agony that these 3 have laid at the feet of the Holloway family is without excuse. every lie they tell jerks the Holloways back and forth. running to the lighthouse, draining ponds by the hotel, searching the brothels...all ending in pain and fear of not knowing. what is the next story that will taunt Nat's family and end in heatbreak? i know joren feels sorry for his mom. i know the Kalpoes apologized to the security guards. when will these 3 step up and apologize to Nat and her family for the lies?



Yea that


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sobelle on June 26, 2005, 11:11:32 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"

2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.


Greta talked about this in one of her last reports. She said that she didn't think Joran having his friends cover for him made him look guilty. He may have just been scared. Or maybe he didn't want people to know that he had some relationship with Natalee. And remember , Greta is a former prosecutor. :roll:


Greta also said naturally keep your eye on the last person that saw Natalee but don't put your all your eggs in one basket either and follow all leads.


Title: narcissiist, sociopath or psychopath?
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:11:57 PM
Think you can spot one? Think again. In general, psychopaths aren't the product of broken homes or the casualties of a materialistic society. Rather they come from all walks of life and there is little evidence that their upbringing affects them. Elements of a psychopath's personality first become evident at a very early age, due to biological or genetic factors. Explains Michael Seto, a psychologist at the Centre for Addiction and Mental health in Toronto, by the time that a person hits their late teens, the disorder is almost certainly permanent. Although many clinicians use the terms psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, writes psychopath expert Robert Hare on his book 'Without Conscience', a sociopath's criminal behavior is shaped by social forces and is the result of a dysfunctional environment.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:11:59 PM
Quote from: "bendex"
A personall friend of mine was raped in Aruba over 8 years ago ...


bendex, I'm sorry to hear this about your friend.  That's grim.  Sounds like the criminal wasn't caught and convicted?

Really, there should have been DNA and other clues in that crime.


Title: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 11:12:11 PM
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren.

>>Hi, LUNA. As you can see, I'm Puggywug. I post this alot when there are questions about Natalee getting in the car. Here is a quote from Dash's mom who also posts here:

"My daughter spoke with Natalee right after C&C's closed. My daughter & her friends came across Nat & Joran as all were exiting the club, and all were walking more or less together toward another group of classmates...

Natalee was walking unassisted (not falling down drunk), spoke ok (though not answering in long sentences), and was not touching Joran.

Nat assured them that she was fine, and said she was going to go back to the hotel "with THEM," pointing to the MBHS group just a few yards ahead. The Kalpoes were nowhere in sight; neither was the car.

Next {woman’s daughter} heard was that Natalee got into a car that many in the group had thought was a taxi. (Those look like regular cars.) It may be that the Kalpoes pulled up on the street before Natalee reached the next group; Joran may have deliberately stalled her. The group may not have even realized she was behind them, approaching.

But while we hear that she got in the car willingly, we know from her comments that it was not her pre-planned intention. Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .“
 
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=303&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=400<<

On the Dark Side is an article that describes a practice called "carving out" that is used to separate vulnerable targets from their group whereby the men involved surround the female and just sort of jostle her to an awaiting car.  An article is written about how this was used on a member of a group until the males of the group drove those attempting the maneuver away.

The other kids thought it was a taxi so who's to say NH did not also think that but she said she intended to go with the group to the HI and said nothing about going with Joren while leaving C&C's.  We cannot know what was in her mind nor what her intentions might have been but we do know what she had just said.

So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  And please keep in mine the socio=economic status of these kids.  It's not like this was their one and only vacation ever and they had to make the most of it, it was just a graduation trip, hardly anything to get hysterical about.  They come from their own little paradise and have advantages most do not.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: inspector_detector on June 26, 2005, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: "igsigs"
Maybe i missed it...but where is the apology that the 3 amigos owe natalee, natalee's family and all of Aruba for that matter? If they are innocent the main reason they are still in jail is because of their own lies. The monumental agony that these 3 have laid at the feet of the Holloway family is without excuse. every lie they tell jerks the Holloways back and forth. running to the lighthouse, draining ponds by the hotel, searching the brothels...all ending in pain and fear of not knowing. what is the next story that will taunt Nat's family and end in heatbreak? i know joren feels sorry for his mom. i know the Kalpoes apologized to the security guards. when will these 3 step up and apologize to Nat and her family for the lies?


Look at it from their point of view. The way they see it Natalee has gotten them all in trouble. They seem to think that Natalee has caused all of this on purpose and just ran away or something. I'm not sure they comprehended at the time that Natalee could really have been kidnapped or murdered. Just my theory.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 11:13:20 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Professor"

 



And that's a fact, Jack.




I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


maybe he put the monkey in the cage next door!!!!!!

sorry the devil made me say that.... sorry.

 :oops:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Microcephalic on June 26, 2005, 11:13:56 PM
Quote
The suppsed Deepak e-mail may contain a cover story, that being that the three boys dropped Natalee off at the HI, but it is just too close to the truth not to be taken seriously. It has been cooberated by several students on the trip, second hand accounts as relayed by Deepak’s and Joran’s mother and other facts. If it was not written by Deepak, it was written by someone with detailed knowledge of what happened that night.

I believe the account given in the e-mail, with exception of the dropping NH off at the HI is more or less accurate. NH met Joran at the blackjack table at the HI Casino the evening that she disappeared. She approached him and asked her to place some bets for her. She more or less invited him to go to C&C’s later that evening. On these events the interview with 2 students, who were in the Casino at the time, and description given in the e-mail are identical.

We then have Joran at McD’s calling for a ride home. Much has been said about this. How did he get there? Why did he go there? I don’t think it really matters. His cell phone would not work in the Casino so he probably walked over and had a Big Mac while he waiting for his father to pick him up. In any case, Joran returns home and makes arrangements with the Kalpoe boys to go to C&C’s. Much has also been said regarding this. These boys must be evil and up to no good to sneak out on a school night and go to a bar, right? I don’t think anything more is required than Joran just met a cute American girl who apparently came on to him or at least invited him to go to C&C’s, he liked her and he wanted to go.

So Joran, Deepak and Satish head over to C&C’s in DEEPAK’s car. This is important given that Joran’s families cars wer later seized but no mention of Deepak’s car being seized. Perhaps I missed that. In any case, Natalee is already there, appearing to be somewhat under the influence, having a good time, but not appearing to be on some harder drug(s). It is already close to closing by the time the boys get there so they quickly order a round of drinks before last call. This makes the date rape drug theory even more unlikely. The bar closes and the students head back to the hotel. Natalee, who is described as coherent by other students, leaves voluntarily with the boys. She is seen by other students who apparently call for her to get out of the car, a fact confirmed by the e-mail and student accounts and Deepak gives her that opportunity.

So we have the four of them cruising in Deepak’s car. The boy’s stories and the e-mail suggest that they drove to the lighthouse. I don’t think it is important whether they did or did not. If a sinister plan had been hatched by the boys at this point then it is unlikely that the Kalpoe’s would have dropped Natalee and Joran off anywhere alone. They would obviously have stayed with him. And yet they did not. Why would Joran be calling and text messaging Deepak and hour or so later for a ride home if they had not dropped him off somewhere earlier? If they were involved with some sort of plot it seems likely that they would have stayed with Joran and done whatever they planned to do. The fact that they did drop them off suggests to me that their involvement in this is limited to the fact that they attempted to help Joran hide something. That is why they are in jail. This has been confirmed by Marianne Croes who has stated yesterday that they are being held because their “stories did not check out”. In fact she made the same statement regarding all of the suspects.

So Joran and Natalee are dropped off at the beach. The Marriot beach seems likely. It is close to the HI and is private. What happens now is anyone’s guess however it is clear that the Kalpoes are not involved. By the way, the security guard, who did not lie and had no reason to lie and is now free as a result also confirms these events having heard one of the Kalpoes stating that he never should have dropped Natalee off alone with Joran.

There are many theories regarding what happened on the beach and only one person that can possibly shed any light on that, perhaps two if Natalee is still alive, or more if others were involved. In any case I believe that Joran had no premeditated plan to do anything at that point other than to perhaps have sex with this girl. It is possible that he murdered her but I think this is unlikely. It does not seem like he would have to resort to rape to make love to women. He is a young, some, apparently including Natalee, would say he is attractive, any lives in a place where thousands of young girls come through every week. Rape or attempted rape and fear of prosecution thereof would be the only motive that I can envision but I just don’t see it. It would have been her word against his and she went with him voluntarily.

Some kind of accident is more likely. If this is the case then Joran has made the mistake of his life as he should have, called for help, reported it and told the truth. And why wouldn’t he? Because he had sex with her? No likely. He could have just said it was consensual and if he did perhaps it was. If she had died there would have been no one to dispute him. Because he drugged her? Also not likely. He does not seem to have had the opportunity to do this or at least very little opportunity. If there was an accident he covered it up he did it because he was stupid.

Perhaps Joran’s only crime is that he is a complete asshole and left a drunk passed out girl on the beach and then lied about it. And parties unkonwn are responsible for her disappearance. Steve Croes? His connection to this case is totally unknown. It is anyone’s guess without facts. And facts are clearly not readily available to us or to the police. Agaian, Marianne Croes has stated that all 5 suspects are being held because their stories didn’t check out. Not because we have clear evidence to suspect them of the crime. This is unfortunate. Joran may or may not hold the key. Without a body or any clear evidence that a crime has been commited I would not be surprised to see any or all of these people released this morning except for the pressure being placed on the police to solve this disappearance and place the blame on someone. I hope she is found, dead or alive. It is a big Island with lots of dessert and coastline. Not very difficult for someone to dispose of a body. The search and recovery people have their work cut out for them.


Continuing on in light of today’s developments…I have been corrected regarding Deepak’s car.  It was seized by the police.  Regarding the release of Steve Croes there are conflicting stories.  Either he was arrested because he made false statements to police in an attempt to give Joran, who he did not know, an alibi or he was arrested simply because he was involved in exchanging e-mails with Deepak.  Doesn’t the Dutch system have our equivalent to obstruction of justice?  If the former were true it seems like he would be held over and charged.  He certainly would be in our system.  Instead he was released due to lack of evidence.  I surmise that he never made false statements and is out of the picture.

Similarly, Paulus Vander Sloot was released due to lack of evidence.  Not only did the Judge determine that there was no evidence but ordered that his arrest was unlawful.  I conclude that there is nothing there.  No late night body disposal, no lying to police, no coordinating stories among the three boys still held and no slave trading to pay off gambling debts.

This leaves Joran alone on the beach with Natalee and no closer to a resolution.  I would say however, with no Steve Croes or Paulus Vander Sloot disposal service, if you buy into my theory,  it is becoming increasingly difficult for Joran to have concealed some crime and disposed of a body.  He is on the beach with no car and no way to dispose of a body.  We have phone calls and text messages to Deepak at the time so we know he wasn’t there.  Perhaps Joran and Natalee arrived at the beach.  Joran wanted sex and Natalee wouldn’t give it to him.  She got angry and told him to leave.  Joran walks home, after failing to get a ride from Deepak, and Natallee heads down the beach toward the hotel.  If any of this is true the local police better get busy looking for a third party or this case is going nowhere.  JMHO


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: rogers on June 26, 2005, 11:14:15 PM
Good night gang. Hope you have this all worked out by morning time.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
I asked this before, but it may have gotten lost in our frenzied posting...any news from TX search group?  Last update I had was from early this morning.


Dan posted an update on his website, riehlworldview.com, at 4:30 pm EDT and indicated that nothing of significance had been found as of that time.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 11:14:21 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "wwizard"
what wuz that? did ya'll hear sumthin? eye'm gittin paranoid.


GIVE ME THAT NEW THEORY, WIZ!!!  :lol:


it ain't very flattering, don't want to git flamed, will PM


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:14:48 PM
I really dont buy into any theory of an outside party unless Natalies friends in the Casino that night had heard them talking about it.  The way kids are they will talk and brag about a party going on to everyone within shouting distance.  A party would have been something that was known.
Kids dont keep that kind of stuff quiet.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 11:15:07 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
I LIKE this theory.  Arubagirl, could this occur?  Were there yachts in town for the Soul Festival?


Now you might be on to something...but there has to be something sinister or powerful enough to warrant D & S just sitting in prison for Joran.

The other scenario could be that the 3 amigos just turned her over to someone on the yacht.

This would explain the sudden loss of memory they all have - didn't know where they were, where they'd been, or where they had dropped of N & J.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 11:16:03 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Kids dont keep that kind of stuff quiet.


Unless they all knew about it, and Natalee didn't.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 26, 2005, 11:16:05 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?


Title: Re: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: mordred on June 26, 2005, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren...........
....... Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .“
 ...................
So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  .


Anna,
With all due respect, Natalle by most accounts was hanging out with Joran since 9:30 that night. At least thats what was reported by the 'Birmingham News' today. So it is probable that she did establish enough of a rapport to feel she could trust him & accept a ride with him.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 26, 2005, 11:18:34 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


well I wouldn't say a lot, and there are several types of psyche help: there is psychiatrists ( prescribe meds);psychologists ( counseling ); then there are therapists or counselors who may not have a medical degree.
It really is not a big deal. I think the reason it is an issue in this case, is because joran apparently has an anger problem he needs counseling for, combined with being suspected of a possible violent crime. That is the connection I see anyway.


Actually, the fact that Joran is seeing a psychiatrist is the EXCEPTION, and not the RULE for sociopaths. Most sociopaths never end up in therapy because they are skilled manipulators (Mommy, mommy, if you had not gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.) and are good at getting what they want. Usually, it's a co-worker, spouse, or family member who ends up in therapy. Narcissists and sociopaths don't go crazy, they drive OTHER people crazy.

And, to the best of my knowledge, the psychiatrist wasn't the first attempt at family intervention. When Joran was beating up on his little brother (which his mother -- in true narcissistc fashion -- claimed was perfectly normal teenage behavior), he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:19:42 PM
Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Professor"

 



And that's a fact, Jack.




I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


maybe he put the monkey in the cage next door!!!!!!

sorry the devil made me say that.... sorry.

 :oops:


 :lol:  :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 11:20:08 PM
Quote from: "Curiosity"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog
<<

Most of us have stated our sources/reasons/logic until we just can't keep doing it over and over several times a day.  Maybe a tiptoe through the archives would answer most of your questions for while there is a great deal of emotion, I don't think that is really what is behind the vast majority of theories.  

No, you have that backwards for this blog has held the MB kids to a much higher standard than Joren who has been allowed to do pretty much anything for years.  The MB kids are trashed because they do not talk to the MSM and tell things that never happened.  If they all say the same they have been given a script and if they say something different, gotcha!  Joren changes his story three times, and well, bless his heart!  He kept lying during the crucial first hours when there might have been a chance of finding her alive, fingered two innocent guards and got them arrested and still did not come clean.  He was perfectly willing to have them take the blame for this if he could pull that off.

You see nothing wrong with those two secrutiy guards being identified by Joren and Crue and arrested on their word?  

His mother says he is in anger management therapy for kicking his little brothers and he threw a kid through a plate glass window, etc. starts two fights with the MB kids and on and on.

Why are you such a fan of Joren and other than the emotion which you blame on others, what is your source or reasoning?  His behavior seems like the good boy his mother says he is who doesn't drink or do drugs, etc. despite all those photos on the web of him doing so and eyewitnesses to the contrary.  Why do his friends tease him about roofies on some of the sites?  And he is not the one missing, one of the MB kids is and he was the last seen with her and pounds his chest when asked what might have happened to her/  There are lots of reasons why some of us do not think he is just a good sweetheart but not much just based on pure emotion.  So why do you think none of this matters, not even sending two innocent men to prison to try to g et them to take his punishment?


Thank you Anna.....well said. And I especially notice the piece about the higher standard of the MB kids.....isn't that the truth. They gave so much in the early days here, only to be run off. It breaks my heart to see what happened to them here. I enjoyed reading what they had to say, since they weren't just speculating ideas.....they lived part of the real story.
V ery good Anna!  Bad Dog!! :evil:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


well I wouldn't say a lot, and there are several types of psyche help: there is psychiatrists ( prescribe meds);psychologists ( counseling ); then there are therapists or counselors who may not have a medical degree.
It really is not a big deal. I think the reason it is an issue in this case, is because joran apparently has an anger problem he needs counseling for, combined with being suspected of a possible violent crime. That is the connection I see anyway.


Actually, the fact that Joran is seeing a psychiatrist is the EXCEPTION, and not the RULE for sociopaths. Most sociopaths never end up in therapy because they are skilled manipulators (Mommy, mommy, if you had not gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.) and are good at getting what they want. Usually, it's a co-worker, spouse, or family member who ends up in therapy. Narcissists and sociopaths don't go crazy, they drive OTHER people crazy.

And, to the best of my knowledge, the psychiatrist wasn't the first attempt at family intervention. When Joran was beating up on his little brother (which his mother -- in true narcissistc fashion -- claimed was perfectly normal teenage behavior), he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist.


Gag.  His mother, albeit sweet and clueless in demeanor, is...CLUELESS.  My mother is a teacher, and I have lots of friends that are teachers, and they all SWEAR that their worst kids are the ones whose parents make EXCUSES for them constantly.  Gag.


Title: Re: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 11:21:08 PM
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "Anna"
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren...........
....... Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .“
 ...................
So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  .


Anna,
With all due respect, Natalle by most accounts was hanging out with Joran since 9:30 that night. At least thats what was reported by the 'Birmingham News' today. So it is probable that she did establish enough of a rapport to feel she could trust him & accept a ride with him.


That does not compute.  Wasn't it established that Joran snuck out and also that the owner of C & C's said the MB group arrived there at 11:30?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:21:46 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "igsigs"
Maybe i missed it...but where is the apology that the 3 amigos owe natalee, natalee's family and all of Aruba for that matter? If they are innocent the main reason they are still in jail is because of their own lies. The monumental agony that these 3 have laid at the feet of the Holloway family is without excuse. every lie they tell jerks the Holloways back and forth. running to the lighthouse, draining ponds by the hotel, searching the brothels...all ending in pain and fear of not knowing. what is the next story that will taunt Nat's family and end in heatbreak? i know joren feels sorry for his mom. i know the Kalpoes apologized to the security guards. when will these 3 step up and apologize to Nat and her family for the lies?


Look at it from their point of view. The way they see it Natalee has gotten them all in trouble. They seem to think that Natalee has caused all of this on purpose and just ran away or something. I'm not sure they comprehended at the time that Natalee could really have been kidnapped or murdered. Just my theory.


and when "that girl" comes back he (joran) is going to "kick her butt in front of her mother" per Anita :twisted:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:23:02 PM
Quote from: "luna"
Anna , back on page 31 you stated this:

"His mother says he is in anger management therapy for kicking his little brothers and he threw a kid through a plate glass window, etc. starts two fights with the MB kids and on and on."

1) Where did his mother say he was in anger management....I believe that is a rumor floating around from day one.  Anita never said that that I can remember.

2)  What is your source for the statement that he threw a kid through a plate glass window?  Again, I've heard that rumor....  a guy named Tsunder over on Riehlworldview.com said it never happened.

3) Bryan Reynolds said that there was "a pushing match" at CnCs with Joran on the second night they were there.  We don't know who started it or why.  I could make a snide remark about the twins being related to Jug....and insinuate they caused it, but I simply don't know who started it.

Where is the source for the second fight please.

I think it's these kind of, probably well-meaning but probably incorrect, statements that get rumors started.

If you have sources or quotes, please let me know.

thanks...
 

I had the same reaction to the dissertation to which you refer.  It mixes fact and rumor (therapy/plate glass window) and cites no sources to create a false picture.  i.e. it is not objective.  maybe the real picture is bad enough without embellishment.  I beleive there are press sources for both scuffles, one at the casino and one at c&c but the jury is out on who caused them and it strikes me as unlikely one guy would take on a group.  bullies are a dime a dozen and often it takes one to know one.  
if joran killed natalee may he burn in hell.  we have to make the legal case first though in this life based on evidence.  that the way we as a society have chosen to do it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:23:03 PM
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... :lol:


just ask Tom Cruise 8)


We should all take vitamins to cure our problems. ;)



Here I have some extra One-A-Days, want one? I think I will take one as I am feeling a little stressed tonight.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: arubagirl on June 26, 2005, 11:23:22 PM
Guys, I'm going to sleep.

See y'all tomorrow.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:23:41 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


TAZ_MAN, that is indeed a very good question.  But nobody that has been posting here is someone that knows Joran.   I noticed one poster over on Dan's site that was in school with him, but really only knew him in the classroom.  

He posts under the name "Tsunder".  Here is a post that he did last night:

k.. just finished taking a shower.. I'm 20 sorry not a teenage.. and I dont hang around with Joran "out of school".. he is just a classmate I hang around with "in school", and you can also say a good friend.. but I dont hang around with him out of school, he has his tennis friends and I have my friends.. so get ur info's right guys..

Posted by: Tsunder | June 26, 2005 12:08 AM


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 11:24:06 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... :lol:


just ask Tom Cruise 8)


We should all take vitamins to cure our problems. ;)



Here I have some extra One-A-Days, want one? I think I will take one as I am feeling a little stressed tonight.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


YES!  Where were the One-A-Days when I had post-partum depression?  Dang!  If only I had known Tom Cruise back then.


Title: Re: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: mordred on June 26, 2005, 11:24:16 PM
Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "Anna"

That does not compute.  Wasn't it established that Joran snuck out and also that the owner of C & C's said the MB group arrived there at 11:30?


I know!!!! I can't figure it out!!?? Maybe the sleuths like 'proffesor' can work on this.
This statement was attributed to Frances Byrd (one of Nat's roomates??) & is available on Birmingham News site http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news
/1119777463177140.xml&coll=2


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:24:57 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
I LIKE this theory.  Arubagirl, could this occur?  Were there yachts in town for the Soul Festival?


Now you might be on to something...but there has to be something sinister or powerful enough to warrant D & S just sitting in prison for Joran.

The other scenario could be that the 3 amigos just turned her over to someone on the yacht.

This would explain the sudden loss of memory they all have - didn't know where they were, where they'd been, or where they had dropped of N & J.



Could they have gotten a hotel room somewhere? Perhaps not one on the coast, a less expensive one, kind off the beaten path?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 11:25:26 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


Well, we don't know about animals, but we know about children....per his mother.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: medleyrelay on June 26, 2005, 11:25:55 PM
Does everyone posting here tonite realize Paul VDS has been released - and we also know that the party boat dj has been - so it seems that some of the big theories that so many were proclaiming here about dad's involvement big time and Steve and the boat or the date rape drug - are totally not panning out to be true??!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 11:26:14 PM
Dear monkey friends,,


I don`t to scratch your back or something, but .......What if there is something else going on? You can`t explain why paul is out! What if Joran realy told the truth? But he only makes a mistake ( A big one i agree by the way!) But hey don`t forget it`s a young guy of 17 years old! I know i`m not making myself populair with this , but that`s not wy we are here.
I told y`all of antoher case here in Holland were 2 adult guys confessed a murder that they don`t committed, and spend over 6 years in jail why is a 17 year old don`t confes then?? I`m sorry but that`s not makes sence.

Just a opinion... :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 26, 2005, 11:26:23 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


TAZ_MAN, that is indeed a very good question.  But nobody that has been posting here is someone that knows Joran.   I noticed one poster over on Dan's site that was in school with him, but really only knew him in the classroom.  

He posts under the name "Tsunder".  Here is a post that he did last night:

k.. just finished taking a shower.. I'm 20 sorry not a teenage.. and I dont hang around with Joran "out of school".. he is just a classmate I hang around with "in school", and you can also say a good friend.. but I dont hang around with him out of school, he has his tennis friends and I have my friends.. so get ur info's right guys..

Posted by: Tsunder | June 26, 2005 12:08 AM


Virtually ALL violent sociopaths have SOME history of animal abuse. The Humane Society of the United States released the following statement about serial killers: "Not all animal abusers end up as serial killers, but virtuall ALL serial killers have SOME history of animal abuse."


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 11:27:11 PM
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "Scott"
I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?


http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html

Joran dated an eastern Asian girl who could not have been any older than 13, a 7th grader, during the 2004/2005 school year, and their relationship was apparently on the down-low, being inappropriate, apparently, in Aruba, the Netherlands, or pretty much anywhere else in the civilized western world. Her mother discovered the relationship early in March and forced them to break up.

Article 245 of the Penal Code
A person who, out of wedlock, with a person who has reached the age of twelve (12) but not yet sixteen (16), performs indecent acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than eight years or a fine of the fifth category.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Another K in Texas on June 26, 2005, 11:27:21 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "Another K in Texas"
Ok, the party is on a yacht.  Someone Joran met at the Casino.  People who cam into town for the Soul Festival.


I LIKE this theory.  Arubagirl, could this occur?  Were there yachts in town for the Soul Festival?


If the party is on the yacht, and something bad happened, we might have a reason for them to stay quiet.

One possiblity is that is was pure accident, but the Yacht owner is someone powerful enough--underworld for example--not to want anyone looking at their boat too closely.  So they will take care of the body and the boys will be quiet or families will pay.

Hence the wall of silence.



Second, someone one the yacht wants Nat--not the intention of the boys--but it happens--and the threat is the same.  Stay quiet or she dies and you and your families will pay.

Sounds like a bad movie plot- but a yacht leaving before she is missing would not be checked too closely I imagine.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: pinemeadows on June 26, 2005, 11:28:13 PM
Quote from: "K in TX"
YES!  Where were the One-A-Days when I had post-partum depression?  Dang!  If only I had known Tom Cruise back then.


 :lol:

What goes around comes around....after all his negative, when his career is down the tubes, he'll be begging for medication.

Good night all


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 26, 2005, 11:28:55 PM
one thing bugs me tho....WHY wood u kidnap an AMERICAN knowing that ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE IF YOU DID


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:30:58 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I really dont buy into any theory of an outside party unless Natalies friends in the Casino that night had heard them talking about it.  The way kids are they will talk and brag about a party going on to everyone within shouting distance.  A party would have been something that was known.
Kids dont keep that kind of stuff quiet.


TAZ_MAN -

Natalee DID ask Joran, in the Casino, the following: "We're going to CnC's tonight?  Will you be there?"

Joran responded that he doesn't normally go to CnC's on a Sunday night, that it is dead on a Sunday night.

So, what if this conversation was overheard in the Casino????


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GreatOwl on June 26, 2005, 11:31:00 PM
time for me to give it a rest... be back tomorrow.......


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: igsigs on June 26, 2005, 11:31:21 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "igsigs"
Maybe i missed it...but where is the apology that the 3 amigos owe natalee, natalee's family and all of Aruba for that matter? If they are innocent the main reason they are still in jail is because of their own lies. The monumental agony that these 3 have laid at the feet of the Holloway family is without excuse. every lie they tell jerks the Holloways back and forth. running to the lighthouse, draining ponds by the hotel, searching the brothels...all ending in pain and fear of not knowing. what is the next story that will taunt Nat's family and end in heatbreak? i know joren feels sorry for his mom. i know the Kalpoes apologized to the security guards. when will these 3 step up and apologize to Nat and her family for the lies?


Look at it from their point of view. The way they see it Natalee has gotten them all in trouble. They seem to think that Natalee has caused all of this on purpose and just ran away or something. I'm not sure they comprehended at the time that Natalee could really have been kidnapped or murdered. Just my theory.


If i streeeeetch my imagination and believe that all 3 of these numbnuts think that Natalee "caused all of this on purpose" it still does not excuse all the garbage that has come out of their pieholes.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 26, 2005, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  :? )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


well I wouldn't say a lot, and there are several types of psyche help: there is psychiatrists ( prescribe meds);psychologists ( counseling ); then there are therapists or counselors who may not have a medical degree.
It really is not a big deal. I think the reason it is an issue in this case, is because joran apparently has an anger problem he needs counseling for, combined with being suspected of a possible violent crime. That is the connection I see anyway.


Actually, the fact that Joran is seeing a psychiatrist is the EXCEPTION, and not the RULE for sociopaths. Most sociopaths never end up in therapy because they are skilled manipulators (Mommy, mommy, if you had not gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.) and are good at getting what they want. Usually, it's a co-worker, spouse, or family member who ends up in therapy. Narcissists and sociopaths don't go crazy, they drive OTHER people crazy.

And, to the best of my knowledge, the psychiatrist wasn't the first attempt at family intervention. When Joran was beating up on his little brother (which his mother -- in true narcissistc fashion -- claimed was perfectly normal teenage behavior), he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist.


Good catch....I can see this idea.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


Well, we don't know about animals, but we know about children....per his mother.



Ive heard the stories about his hurting his brothers thats why I find the outside apartment (if it is true) extremely interesting.  

Can these be just normal fights between siblings or is this something that really worried the parents?
The animal issue is something that no one has even eluded to, its just me questioning more possible explanations for his behavioral problems if they are as bad as they are being reported.

Many killers have hurt animals purposely at some point in their life.  Its really a strong sign of some internal aggression stemming usually from a disruptive household environment.

I fear his behavior was escalating and this time he went too far.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 11:31:52 PM
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
Sorry my dear new friends, just a thought........

TTownMike  i`m agree with a lot of youre statements, but I don`t like the fact that that the people are =namecalling such as URIN his name is JORAN, And van der Slease ...pfff please opinion is ok but this people are slandered tru the mud and we know sh%t I can`t follow that ..I blame my dutch inheiritage than, but we and I are not just to this namecalling if we don`t know jack,,,, sorry sue me :lol:  I don`t like that! But hey I guess thats my problem....


Yeah, I'd like to rag on TTownMike for that but RB would kick me out ASAP! :shock:


Awright thats enough!  That is exactly what Greta calls him!  Am I wrong?
PS Hannie, you don't like anything I say so THATS JUST GREAT WITH ME!


Title: Re: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 11:32:10 PM
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "Anna"
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren...........
....... Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .“
 ...................
So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  .


Anna,
With all due respect, Natalle by most accounts was hanging out with Joran since 9:30 that night. At least thats what was reported by the 'Birmingham News' today. So it is probable that she did establish enough of a rapport to feel she could trust him & accept a ride with him.
<<

So you did not even bother to read the timeline?  No, she left him at the casino and went to C&C with her friends and NOT Joren where he said no one went on Sunday and she did NOT expect to see him there.

Yes, it is possible she could have accepted a ride with him back to HI just where she told her friend she was going but the fact is she never arrived. there.  Not ever.  And there is absolutely nothing to support this theory that she wanted anything more from him that a ride to the HI but so many have contended otherwise.

So what if she accepted a ride with him?  That explains what happend to her and why?  Are you saying if a girl accepts a ride it means anything more than that and she should be made to disappear for that is just what happened.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: candygirl on June 26, 2005, 11:33:01 PM
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 11:33:07 PM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Kerin, etals, I like that theory too!


that's because you are "one of us" TT.  :lol:


Aww gorsh, thanks fer that! :oops:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:33:18 PM
The interview with Jorans mom if I remember correctly didnt talk about Joran going to meditation classes and Yoga for anger management, his mom said in detainment he has been meditating and doing Yoga in a way to keep himself mentally strong will being kept in jail.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 11:33:23 PM
Proffesor i like your comments but you`re obviasly biased and have already judged them or Joran, That is not an opinion anymore is my guess, but a accusation !! And you know just as much as we do so ...it leaves me wondering.........


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: gaijin on June 26, 2005, 11:33:25 PM
Evening all..know what..???this case is over..we have lost this girl..
my heart is broken...but we wiill never know what happeneed to this child...she is lost to us........its over..


Title: Re: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:34:25 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren.

>>Hi, LUNA. As you can see, I'm Puggywug. I post this alot when there are questions about Natalee getting in the car. Here is a quote from Dash's mom who also posts here:

"My daughter spoke with Natalee right after C&C's closed. My daughter & her friends came across Nat & Joran as all were exiting the club, and all were walking more or less together toward another group of classmates...

Natalee was walking unassisted (not falling down drunk), spoke ok (though not answering in long sentences), and was not touching Joran.

Nat assured them that she was fine, and said she was going to go back to the hotel "with THEM," pointing to the MBHS group just a few yards ahead. The Kalpoes were nowhere in sight; neither was the car.

Next {woman’s daughter} heard was that Natalee got into a car that many in the group had thought was a taxi. (Those look like regular cars.) It may be that the Kalpoes pulled up on the street before Natalee reached the next group; Joran may have deliberately stalled her. The group may not have even realized she was behind them, approaching.

But while we hear that she got in the car willingly, we know from her comments that it was not her pre-planned intention. Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .“
 
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=303&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=400<<

On the Dark Side is an article that describes a practice called "carving out" that is used to separate vulnerable targets from their group whereby the men involved surround the female and just sort of jostle her to an awaiting car.  An article is written about how this was used on a member of a group until the males of the group drove those attempting the maneuver away.

The other kids thought it was a taxi so who's to say NH did not also think that but she said she intended to go with the group to the HI and said nothing about going with Joren while leaving C&C's.  We cannot know what was in her mind nor what her intentions might have been but we do know what she had just said.

So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  And please keep in mine the socio=economic status of these kids.  It's not like this was their one and only vacation ever and they had to make the most of it, it was just a graduation trip, hardly anything to get hysterical about.  They come from their own little paradise and have advantages most do not.


dash's mom posted other scenarios including the "yahoo aruba" one on another website very early on.  these have been posted here in the past. But as Dash herself has told us, she did not see Natalee get into the car and as far as we know the taxi scenario is pure speculation.  In fact, if i am not mistaken we know the kalpoes were with joran in the bar.   personally, i don't buy the scenario of natalle somehow being abducted as she left the bar.  later maybe.  but we have no basis for thinking she was taken against her when they left the bar.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Scott on June 26, 2005, 11:34:59 PM
Quote from: "Another K in Texas"

If the party is on the yacht, and something bad happened, we might have a reason for them to stay quiet.

One possiblity is that is was pure accident, but the Yacht owner is someone powerful enough--underworld for example--not to want anyone looking at their boat too closely.  So they will take care of the body and the boys will be quiet or families will pay.

Hence the wall of silence.

Second, someone one the yacht wants Nat--not the intention of the boys--but it happens--and the threat is the same.  Stay quiet or she dies and you and your families will pay.

Sounds like a bad movie plot- but a yacht leaving before she is missing would not be checked too closely I imagine.


The FBI could have the van der Sloots and Kalpoes living in Yuma and Flagstaff, Arizona tomorrow with all new identities if there was any truth to this kind of rumor.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:35:01 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I really dont buy into any theory of an outside party unless Natalies friends in the Casino that night had heard them talking about it.  The way kids are they will talk and brag about a party going on to everyone within shouting distance.  A party would have been something that was known.
Kids dont keep that kind of stuff quiet.


TAZ_MAN -

Natalee DID ask Joran, in the Casino, the following: "We're going to CnC's tonight?  Will you be there?"

Joran responded that he doesn't normally go to CnC's on a Sunday night, that it is dead on a Sunday night.


So, what if this conversation was overheard in the Casino????



I dont understand what this question has to do with another party going on that night.  Can you be more specific.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:35:40 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
one thing bugs me tho....WHY wood u kidnap an AMERICAN knowing that ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE IF YOU DID


I don't think this amount of media coverage was ever considered. Kind of like kids who don't think 2 steps in front of themselves. I think they thought it would be just brushed aside. I honestly do


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Anna on June 26, 2005, 11:35:42 PM
Trust you will have all of this solved by morning, am calling it off for today.  If anything important happens, someone post for us all to read in the morning! :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: natfortplum on June 26, 2005, 11:36:21 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I really dont buy into any theory of an outside party unless Natalies friends in the Casino that night had heard them talking about it.  The way kids are they will talk and brag about a party going on to everyone within shouting distance.  A party would have been something that was known.
Kids dont keep that kind of stuff quiet.


TAZ_MAN -

Natalee DID ask Joran, in the Casino, the following: "We're going to CnC's tonight?  Will you be there?"

Joran responded that he doesn't normally go to CnC's on a Sunday night, that it is dead on a Sunday night.

So, what if this conversation was overheard in the Casino????


Joran also said that he couldn't go to C&C's because he had school he next day...maybe all this was said for someone elses benefit. (maybe Daddy was gambling right beside him)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 26, 2005, 11:36:56 PM
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


Well, we don't know about animals, but we know about children....per his mother.


Aruba has a very good Humane Society web page. Someone there must know (if they are talking). But my experience is that people of the humane society are very willing to point the finger, when it comes to animal abuse.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:37:39 PM
Quote from: "wwizard"
one thing bugs me tho....WHY wood u kidnap an AMERICAN knowing that ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE IF YOU DID


They wouldnt thats why kidnapping isnt really a logical explanation at this point.


Title: Hasibokos on joran
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:38:17 PM
Joran van der Sloot (JvdS)
Hasibokos.com published an interview conducted with a friend of JvdS last week. After we had contact with Dan Riehl, he told us that he believes he had interviewed the same friend before. Joran’s friend had mostly positive things to say about JvdS, but considereing the fact it’s only one source, we are in doubt now about the Joran’s temperament. This is because according to the article in De Telegraaf, Joran has been seing a psychiatrist for some time now because he is short-tempered. This does not match the previous statement of Joran’s friend who said that she never saw JvdS loose his composure on the tennis court. About Jorans reaction when he would loose a tennis match,  she said that Joran would be very disappointed as anyone would be, but he would never burst out and start screaming or show violent behaviour. According to Joran’s friend at those times Joran would just pull himself back a spend time by himself and reflect. Maybe Joran would never loose his temper in public and that why his friend never noted his short temperament. Or maybe he was just doing what his psychiatrist advised him to do in those situations.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:39:35 PM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Could they have gotten a hotel room somewhere? Perhaps not one on the coast, a less expensive one, kind off the beaten path?


KackyLacky, there is one theory that Joran took Natalee to his detached-from-the-home apartment.  

Problem there is that we need some DNA from his apartment, or we need it to have found it "super-cleaned" (which would then arouse suspicion).


Title: Re: Hasibokos on joran
Post by: Professor on June 26, 2005, 11:40:02 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Joran van der Sloot (JvdS)
Hasibokos.com published an interview conducted with a friend of JvdS last week. After we had contact with Dan Riehl, he told us that he believes he had interviewed the same friend before. Joran’s friend had mostly positive things to say about JvdS, but considereing the fact it’s only one source, we are in doubt now about the Joran’s temperament. This is because according to the article in De Telegraaf, Joran has been seing a psychiatrist for some time now because he is short-tempered. This does not match the previous statement of Joran’s friend who said that she never saw JvdS loose his composure on the tennis court. About Jorans reaction when he would loose a tennis match,  she said that Joran would be very disappointed as anyone would be, but he would never burst out and start screaming or show violent behaviour. According to Joran’s friend at those times Joran would just pull himself back a spend time by himself and reflect. Maybe Joran would never loose his temper in public and that why his friend never noted his short temperament. Or maybe he was just doing what his psychiatrist advised him to do in those situations.


Narcissists and sociopaths live behind a mask. Their true brutality only comes out when nobody's looking.


Title: Re: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: mordred on June 26, 2005, 11:41:47 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "Anna"
....
So you did not even bother to read the timeline?  That explains what happend to her and why?  Are you saying if a girl accepts a ride it means anything more than that and she should be made to disappear for that is just what happened.


Anna,
No need to jump on my back!! I am only reporting what was said by her friend today ( & I posted the link) I am as dumbfounded as everybody else about the facts in this case. If its any consolation to you - this is the very first blog I've ever posted to & I would like to think its out of my concern for a lovely child who I pray to God that she is safe & sound :cry:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 26, 2005, 11:42:53 PM
I'm back...are we being nice? Trashed any teenagers in trauma lately?

I don't remember reading that Natalee asked Joran if he would be at Carlos and Charlies?  Is that new?

A psychiatrist?  Where did that come from?

Interesting.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:45:00 PM
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
I'm back...are we being nice? Trashed any teenagers in trauma lately?

I don't remember reading that Natalee asked Joran if he would be at Carlos and Charlies?  Is that new?

A psychiatrist?  Where did that come from?

Interesting.


arubagirl stated she had a good source that indicated that joran was seeing a psychiatrist but she doesnt want to reveal where she heard it.


Title: Re: Post Concerning NH Getting Into Car With Joren
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:45:42 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "Anna"
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren...........
....... Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .“
 ...................
So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  .


Anna,
With all due respect, Natalle by most accounts was hanging out with Joran since 9:30 that night. At least thats what was reported by the 'Birmingham News' today. So it is probable that she did establish enough of a rapport to feel she could trust him & accept a ride with him.
<<

So you did not even bother to read the timeline?  No, she left him at the casino and went to C&C with her friends and NOT Joren where he said no one went on Sunday and she did NOT expect to see him there.

Yes, it is possible she could have accepted a ride with him back to HI just where she told her friend she was going but the fact is she never arrived. there.  Not ever.  And there is absolutely nothing to support this theory that she wanted anything more from him that a ride to the HI but so many have contended otherwise.

So what if she accepted a ride with him?  That explains what happend to her and why?  Are you saying if a girl accepts a ride it means anything more than that and she should be made to disappear for that is just what happened.


 that she accepted a ride with him means she accepted a ride with him. we have no basis for thinking she did not.  so if we want something sinister we will have to look elsewhere.  Accepting the ride it is not.  Not arriving at her destination is.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:46:56 PM
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 26, 2005, 11:47:22 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "wwizard"
one thing bugs me tho....WHY wood u kidnap an AMERICAN knowing that ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE IF YOU DID


They wouldnt thats why kidnapping isnt really a logical explanation at this point.


BNut then again, no one expected the tenacity of the Twittys and the overwhelming response that Natalee has inspired!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: WonderWoman on June 26, 2005, 11:47:25 PM
I know the Croes name is popular but....

The Intercon Financial Bank on Aruba is represented by the law-firm Croes & Wever. One of the partners is former Minister of Justice Hendrik Croes. The firm's trust-company Arulex was implicated in setting up the bank. ""Yes, we are involved with that bank"," says Croes. ""We still handle all their legal affairs, but we don't know anything of their financial accounts"." (70)

Hendrik Croes – a brother of the island's legendary leader, the late Betico Croes who guided Aruba to its semi-independent status in the Dutch realm – is one of the leading political figures on the island. He led several election campaigns for the MEP, now in the opposition. The Croes Family has been accused of ties with Cuntrera-Caruana. The Sicilian mafiosi payed for a trip of another brother, Rudy Croes (who succeeded Hendrik as Minister of Justice in a previous MEP government) as party secretary to a meeting of the Socialist International in Turkey. This has not been denied.

Paolo Cuntrera visited the island regularly despite his expulsion in 1988. The government opposed his legal actions for re-admittance. But Hendrik Croes has to admit the procedures were not stainless. A blundering government lawyer, an official who signed a residence permit 'by mistake', meant that "de facto" Paolo Cuntrera was able to circulate freely on the island.

According to Canadian police reports, in 1978, Pasquale Cuntrera owned the Holiday Inn Casino – although the registers indicated otherwise. ""At the start of 1980s the Cuntrera's were often at the Holiday Inn casino"," says a croupier. ""In 1989 they were there again, although they were ostensibly thrown of the island"."


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 26, 2005, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "Scott"
I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?


http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html

Joran dated an eastern Asian girl who could not have been any older than 13, a 7th grader, during the 2004/2005 school year, and their relationship was apparently on the down-low, being inappropriate, apparently, in Aruba, the Netherlands, or pretty much anywhere else in the civilized western world. Her mother discovered the relationship early in March and forced them to break up.

Article 245 of the Penal Code
A person who, out of wedlock, with a person who has reached the age of twelve (12) but not yet sixteen (16), performs indecent acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than eight years or a fine of the fifth category.


Thanks for the info, but that doesn't answer my question.

Do you know he commited sexual penetration?  

A 17 yr old dating a 13 yr old is certainly not unheard of....and saying it is inappropriate in the civilized western world (what about the civilized eastern world?).....is a bit extreme.

Unless he was charged and convicted of statutory rape, this is, once again, stretching it IMHO.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 26, 2005, 11:48:11 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
I'm back...are we being nice? Trashed any teenagers in trauma lately?

I don't remember reading that Natalee asked Joran if he would be at Carlos and Charlies?  Is that new?

A psychiatrist?  Where did that come from?

Interesting.


arubagirl stated she had a good source that indicated that joran was seeing a psychiatrist but she doesnt want to reveal where she heard it.


Since psychiatrists normally hand out meds, and psychologists normally do therapy, I wonder which it is, and for what?  If it's true. Which who knows with all the gossip going around.


Title: Re: Hasibokos on joran
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:48:12 PM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "iquitos"
Joran van der Sloot (JvdS)
Hasibokos.com published an interview conducted with a friend of JvdS last week. After we had contact with Dan Riehl, he told us that he believes he had interviewed the same friend before. Joran’s friend had mostly positive things to say about JvdS, but considereing the fact it’s only one source, we are in doubt now about the Joran’s temperament. This is because according to the article in De Telegraaf, Joran has been seing a psychiatrist for some time now because he is short-tempered. This does not match the previous statement of Joran’s friend who said that she never saw JvdS loose his composure on the tennis court. About Jorans reaction when he would loose a tennis match,  she said that Joran would be very disappointed as anyone would be, but he would never burst out and start screaming or show violent behaviour. According to Joran’s friend at those times Joran would just pull himself back a spend time by himself and reflect. Maybe Joran would never loose his temper in public and that why his friend never noted his short temperament. Or maybe he was just doing what his psychiatrist advised him to do in those situations.


Narcissists and sociopaths live behind a mask. Their true brutality only comes out when nobody's looking.


prof:  you seem to know them so well.  this is the second rendtion of this discussion that i can remember.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:48:58 PM
Quote from: "Another K in Texas"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "Another K in Texas"
Ok, the party is on a yacht.  Someone Joran met at the Casino.  People who cam into town for the Soul Festival.


I LIKE this theory.  Arubagirl, could this occur?  Were there yachts in town for the Soul Festival?


If the party is on the yacht, and something bad happened, we might have a reason for them to stay quiet.

One possiblity is that is was pure accident, but the Yacht owner is someone powerful enough--underworld for example--not to want anyone looking at their boat too closely.  So they will take care of the body and the boys will be quiet or families will pay.

Hence the wall of silence.



Second, someone one the yacht wants Nat--not the intention of the boys--but it happens--and the threat is the same.  Stay quiet or she dies and you and your families will pay.

Sounds like a bad movie plot- but a yacht leaving before she is missing would not be checked too closely I imagine.
\

Another K in Texas, these are both good.  In both cases, the reason for silence is due to threats of bodily harm, etc.  That is one of the few reasons that would work for all three boys.  Otherwise, the brothers would have sung the truth very quickly, as soon as they found out there was a missing-person situation.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 11:51:09 PM
Professor wrote:

Quote
iquitos wrote:
Joran van der Sloot (JvdS)
Hasibokos.com published an interview conducted with a friend of JvdS last week. After we had contact with Dan Riehl, he told us that he believes he had interviewed the same friend before. Joran’s friend had mostly positive things to say about JvdS, but considereing the fact it’s only one source, we are in doubt now about the Joran’s temperament. This is because according to the article in De Telegraaf, Joran has been seing a psychiatrist for some time now because he is short-tempered. This does not match the previous statement of Joran’s friend who said that she never saw JvdS loose his composure on the tennis court. About Jorans reaction when he would loose a tennis match, she said that Joran would be very disappointed as anyone would be, but he would never burst out and start screaming or show violent behaviour. According to Joran’s friend at those times Joran would just pull himself back a spend time by himself and reflect. Maybe Joran would never loose his temper in public and that why his friend never noted his short temperament. Or maybe he was just doing what his psychiatrist advised him to do in those situations.


Narcissists and sociopaths live behind a mask.
Their true brutality only comes out when nobody's looking


Professor come on....You seem so sure!! Where you there and did you have more insite than we are?? Don`t think so... You are 'examen; people you don`t even know....come on pleeezzz....

It`s human to slemder people I guess..?? But the Fact of the matter is we don`t kn ow Joran or the brothers or the other 'supposed'suspects! We can`t judge by the way they dress i thought or the pictures we`ve seen...
Sorry i think that is a little bit narrow minded but hey ......just my opinion :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:52:18 PM
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
I'm back...are we being nice? Trashed any teenagers in trauma lately?

I don't remember reading that Natalee asked Joran if he would be at Carlos and Charlies?  Is that new?

A psychiatrist?  Where did that come from?

Interesting.


arubagirl stated she had a good source that indicated that joran was seeing a psychiatrist but she doesnt want to reveal where she heard it.


Since psychiatrists normally hand out meds, and psychologists normally do therapy, I wonder which it is, and for what?  If it's true. Which who knows with all the gossip going around.


The doctors there might have less defined rolls than they do in the USA.  Its not unlikely that a Psychiatrist assume the role of therapist there.  Its something that probably be only admitted by his parents if they have the same privacy issues there as they do in america.  Just knowing he was in therapy causes minds to take off in different directions regarding possibilities.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:53:06 PM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I really dont buy into any theory of an outside party unless Natalies friends in the Casino that night had heard them talking about it.  The way kids are they will talk and brag about a party going on to everyone within shouting distance.  A party would have been something that was known.
Kids dont keep that kind of stuff quiet.


TAZ_MAN -

Natalee DID ask Joran, in the Casino, the following: "We're going to CnC's tonight?  Will you be there?"

Joran responded that he doesn't normally go to CnC's on a Sunday night, that it is dead on a Sunday night.


So, what if this conversation was overheard in the Casino????



I dont understand what this question has to do with another party going on that night.  Can you be more specific.


Sorry I wasn't clear, TAZ_MAN.  This is for a separate theory that someone overheard their plans and stalked them.  This is not part of the underground-party theory.  But, the stalker would have had to stay unseen until after Joran said goodnight to Natalee and left her on the beach.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:53:58 PM
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "Scott"
I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?


http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html

Joran dated an eastern Asian girl who could not have been any older than 13, a 7th grader, during the 2004/2005 school year, and their relationship was apparently on the down-low, being inappropriate, apparently, in Aruba, the Netherlands, or pretty much anywhere else in the civilized western world. Her mother discovered the relationship early in March and forced them to break up.

Article 245 of the Penal Code
A person who, out of wedlock, with a person who has reached the age of twelve (12) but not yet sixteen (16), performs indecent acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than eight years or a fine of the fifth category.


Thanks for the info, but that doesn't answer my question.

Do you know he commited sexual penetration?  

A 17 yr old dating a 13 yr old is certainly not unheard of....and saying it is inappropriate in the civilized western world (what about the civilized eastern world?).....is a bit extreme.

Unless he was charged and convicted of statutory rape, this is, once again, stretching it IMHO.


that particular item in darkside looks like pure slander to me. inquirer could not have done better.  we should avoid that kind of innuendo here.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: candygirl on June 26, 2005, 11:54:32 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.



Great Idea, Thanks!  I'd really like to know....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 26, 2005, 11:55:01 PM
Minister of Justice Hendrik Croes, whose firm serves as legal advisor to a bank known for money laundering said, ""Yes, we are involved with that bank"," says Croes. ""We still handle all their legal affairs, but we don't know anything of their financial accounts"."

That was laughable. How do you provide legal assistance for a BANK, without having some knowledge of their "financial account?" Unless all you're doing is making sure their branch offices are all in compliance with safety standards? Give me a break.

We ain't ALL idiots.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 26, 2005, 11:55:26 PM
Quote
Awright thats enough! That is exactly what Greta calls him! Am I wrong?
PS Hannie, you don't like anything I say so THATS JUST GREAT WITH ME!


TTown I guess you didn`t read my post , I said something else :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 26, 2005, 11:56:32 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


 i would think a vip plane, depending on where it is going, would get off real easy.  would not if headed to US.  we have preinspection in aruba if i am not mistaken


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KackyLacky on June 26, 2005, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


a few pages back she did answer something about no planes, and the staff stayed that night leaving the next morning. It is on this thread I think, I am just to tired to look. sorry, I am almost typing one-eyed now. :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 26, 2005, 11:59:04 PM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


 i would think a vip plane, depending on where it is going, would get off real easy.  would not if headed to US.  we have preinspection in aruba if i am not mistaken


But, if they whisked her away on a private plane...don't you think someone would have noticed her, or remembered her?  I mean, I've flown on a private jet before, and there are still employees that help you to the plane, etc.  I have to think they would remember her??


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: jane on June 26, 2005, 11:59:31 PM
Quote
Actually, the fact that Joran is seeing a psychiatrist is the EXCEPTION, and not the RULE for sociopaths. Most sociopaths never end up in therapy because they are skilled manipulators (Mommy, mommy, if you had not gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.) and are good at getting what they want. Usually, it's a co-worker, spouse, or family member who ends up in therapy. Narcissists and sociopaths don't go crazy, they drive OTHER people crazy.


You have to be 18 years old before the diagnosis for Anti-Social Personality Disorder can be applied. Before the age of 18 it is called Conduct Disorder.

http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/conduct.htm


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 26, 2005, 11:59:34 PM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"

Sorry I wasn't clear, TAZ_MAN.  This is for a separate theory that someone overheard their plans and stalked them.  This is not part of the underground-party theory.  But, the stalker would have had to stay unseen until after Joran said goodnight to Natalee and left her on the beach.


Dallas:

Anything is possible but I will give you the reasons I believe its very improbable.

1.  Some sort of stalker/kidnapper more than likely would have reared their ugly head MANY times in the past. There would be many reports of missing pretty girls from bars in Aruba, its very unlikely that Natalie was his first targer.

2. The most important issue is reports of lies and changing stories..add that to the fact that natalie was the last seen with the 3 boys can logically tell you they have something bad to hide.

Its easy to let the mind wander to very complex conspiracies but I truly believe its very simple.  Something went wrong between Natalie and Joran and if this Texas team doesnt find her within 2 weeks they will never be charged with murder unless the body surfaces on its own.

If Joran is released his family will probably move to Holland to never be seen again.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 26, 2005, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
I'm back...are we being nice? Trashed any teenagers in trauma lately?

I don't remember reading that Natalee asked Joran if he would be at Carlos and Charlies?  Is that new?

A psychiatrist?  Where did that come from?

Interesting.


The conversation between Natalee and Joran was detailed in the two-friends interview by Greta on 6-21-05.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:00:57 AM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


a few pages back she did answer something about no planes, and the staff stayed that night leaving the next morning. It is on this thread I think, I am just to tired to look. sorry, I am almost typing one-eyed now. :wink:


she said no scheduled flights.  these guys would be charter but they could have left in the morning too.  i think we established that security stayed dressed in black stayed at the HI.  Not that it matters.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 27, 2005, 12:01:25 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "wwizard"
one thing bugs me tho....WHY wood u kidnap an AMERICAN knowing that ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE IF YOU DID


They wouldnt thats why kidnapping isnt really a logical explanation at this point.


Yes, this is valid.  Kidnapping by an Aruban would be unlikely.  Too harmful to their livelihoods.  Kidnapping by an outsider might be more possible?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: natfortplum on June 27, 2005, 12:01:26 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "Scott"
I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?


http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html

Joran dated an eastern Asian girl who could not have been any older than 13, a 7th grader, during the 2004/2005 school year, and their relationship was apparently on the down-low, being inappropriate, apparently, in Aruba, the Netherlands, or pretty much anywhere else in the civilized western world. Her mother discovered the relationship early in March and forced them to break up.

Article 245 of the Penal Code
A person who, out of wedlock, with a person who has reached the age of twelve (12) but not yet sixteen (16), performs indecent acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than eight years or a fine of the fifth category.


Thanks for the info, but that doesn't answer my question.

Do you know he commited sexual penetration?  

A 17 yr old dating a 13 yr old is certainly not unheard of....and saying it is inappropriate in the civilized western world (what about the civilized eastern world?).....is a bit extreme.

Unless he was charged and convicted of statutory rape, this is, once again, stretching it IMHO.


that particular item in darkside looks like pure slander to me. inquirer could not have done better.  we should avoid that kind of innuendo here.


It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 27, 2005, 12:02:18 AM
Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering.)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Charlotte on June 27, 2005, 12:02:38 AM
There was an interview this evening on our local news here in B'ham with Beth Twitty and it was the first time I have seen her almost start to cry.  She was talking about all the support she was getting from all over the world and she said that when she stops and thinks about it, she gets overwhelmed.

Also, I think the interview with the MB students this evening was a waste of time.  What is the point of putting these kids on who didn'y see her leave and have nothing to add to the story?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 27, 2005, 12:02:42 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"

Sorry I wasn't clear, TAZ_MAN.  This is for a separate theory that someone overheard their plans and stalked them.  This is not part of the underground-party theory.  But, the stalker would have had to stay unseen until after Joran said goodnight to Natalee and left her on the beach.


Dallas:

Anything is possible but I will give you the reasons I believe its very improbable.

1.  Some sort of stalker/kidnapper more than likely would have reared their ugly head MANY times in the past. There would be many reports of missing pretty girls from bars in Aruba, its very unlikely that Natalie was his first targer.

2. The most important issue is reports of lies and changing stories..add that to the fact that natalie was the last seen with the 3 boys can logically tell you they have something bad to hide.

Its easy to let the mind wander to very complex conspiracies but I truly believe its very simple.  Something went wrong between Natalie and Joran and if this Texas team doesnt find her within 2 weeks they will never be charged with murder unless the body surfaces on its own.

If Joran is released his family will probably move to Holland to never be seen again.


Taz, I am so afraid that you may be right.  My biggest fear is that there will be NO trace of Natalee (and, as a parent, I can't imagine anything more awful), and that the kids will go free, to live their lives.  Which is why I think they aren't saying anything.  They aren't stupid.  My thoughts are, that if they did something with her (assuming she died), they are waiting to be sure no one finds her.  WHY would they confess right now, when there are virtually NO clues as to her whereabouts?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:02:47 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"

Sorry I wasn't clear, TAZ_MAN.  This is for a separate theory that someone overheard their plans and stalked them.  This is not part of the underground-party theory.  But, the stalker would have had to stay unseen until after Joran said goodnight to Natalee and left her on the beach.


Dallas:

Anything is possible but I will give you the reasons I believe its very improbable.

1.  Some sort of stalker/kidnapper more than likely would have reared their ugly head MANY times in the past. There would be many reports of missing pretty girls from bars in Aruba, its very unlikely that Natalie was his first targer.

2. The most important issue is reports of lies and changing stories..add that to the fact that natalie was the last seen with the 3 boys can logically tell you they have something bad to hide.

Its easy to let the mind wander to very complex conspiracies but I truly believe its very simple.  Something went wrong between Natalie and Joran and if this Texas team doesnt find her within 2 weeks they will never be charged with murder unless the body surfaces on its own.

If Joran is released his family will probably move to Holland to never be seen again.


 unfortunately, unlikely the body will surface at this point.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: candygirl on June 27, 2005, 12:03:11 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


 i would think a vip plane, depending on where it is going, would get off real easy.  would not if headed to US.  we have preinspection in aruba if i am not mistaken


Thanks iquitos, thats what I was wondering.....so if she was abducted, surely they would go somewhere besides the USA......could this be the answer......I'd sure like to see the flight records for the 30th and 31st


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 12:03:14 AM
Any chartered private plan would be logged and have been on radar.  Any unlogged plane showing up on radar would be automatically suspicious.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:04:06 AM
Professor wrote:

Quote
Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering
.)

HUh.............who is Hendrik Croes??


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: candygirl on June 27, 2005, 12:05:03 AM
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


a few pages back she did answer something about no planes, and the staff stayed that night leaving the next morning. It is on this thread I think, I am just to tired to look. sorry, I am almost typing one-eyed now. :wink:


oh gee........well it was a thought


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 12:07:01 AM
K in Tx

If the body isnt found and he is set free and assuming he does have some sort of personality disturbance and uncontrollable rage, you can be sure something will happen to someone in the future, so if hes not convicted for Natalies sake of any wrong doing, he probably will be for someone else in the future.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: WonderWoman on June 27, 2005, 12:07:17 AM
Quote from: "WonderWoman"
I know the Croes name is popular but....

The Intercon Financial Bank on Aruba is represented by the law-firm Croes & Wever. One of the partners is former Minister of Justice Hendrik Croes. The firm's trust-company Arulex was implicated in setting up the bank. ""Yes, we are involved with that bank"," says Croes. ""We still handle all their legal affairs, but we don't know anything of their financial accounts"." (70)

Hendrik Croes – a brother of the island's legendary leader, the late Betico Croes who guided Aruba to its semi-independent status in the Dutch realm – is one of the leading political figures on the island. He led several election campaigns for the MEP, now in the opposition. The Croes Family has been accused of ties with Cuntrera-Caruana. The Sicilian mafiosi payed for a trip of another brother, Rudy Croes (who succeeded Hendrik as Minister of Justice in a previous MEP government) as party secretary to a meeting of the Socialist International in Turkey. This has not been denied.

Paolo Cuntrera visited the island regularly despite his expulsion in 1988. The government opposed his legal actions for re-admittance. But Hendrik Croes has to admit the procedures were not stainless. A blundering government lawyer, an official who signed a residence permit 'by mistake', meant that "de facto" Paolo Cuntrera was able to circulate freely on the island.

According to Canadian police reports, in 1978, Pasquale Cuntrera owned the Holiday Inn Casino – although the registers indicated otherwise. ""At the start of 1980s the Cuntrera's were often at the Holiday Inn casino"," says a croupier. ""In 1989 they were there again, although they were ostensibly thrown of the island"."





Natalee's Uncle Tom is head of ALL investment services for AmSouth Bank in Birmingham but yet he filed a new corporation just for himself in Rhode Island in late 2004 and named it Amsouth Investment Corp... not accusing...just found it as part of new corporate filings...

the scheme at AmSouth for which the bank ended up in court involved Panamanian and Nicaraugan banks...one of the indicted was a Robert Picou - a Panamanian who is said to be in hiding in Nicarauga or Panama


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 27, 2005, 12:07:25 AM
geez louise...professor:

"he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist."

You have this kid diagnosed as being a sociopath, animal abuser, and something else I can't remember now....I'm sure you will remind me!

His mother said he "TOOK" yoga class, not that he was "sent" to yoga class.  We don't know for certain he is seeing a psychiatrist....and if he is, that is quite a stretch to sociopath.

The discussions here tonight are so far overboard, no pun intended, it's disgusting.  I don't know if Joran killed Nat or not....and neither do you! But you have him tried and convicted...

He told a lie about dropping Nat off....but so far as I can tell, he changed his story to taking her to the Marriott after that.  I think he told the first lie cus he didn't want anyone, his parents or her parents, to know they had sex on the beach.  He's 17, scared and maybe a little stupid.

A sociopath that does not make!!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:07:45 AM
Quote from: "Charlotte"
There was an interview this evening on our local news here in B'ham with Beth Twitty and it was the first time I have seen her almost start to cry.  She was talking about all the support she was getting from all over the world and she said that when she stops and thinks about it, she gets overwhelmed.

Also, I think the interview with the MB students this evening was a waste of time.  What is the point of putting these kids on who didn'y see her leave and have nothing to add to the story?

Yeah, I saw the i'view with the kids and you are so right, nothing there at all!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:08:19 AM
I hope that natalee is being found safe!!

But I`m sure all the forum members get a lot of geography and inside of the antilles and aruba and the netherlands., they never knew about, since there comes a lot of info people didn`t knew about of this


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 27, 2005, 12:08:39 AM
Quote from: "natfortplum"
It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Yes, there is confirmation from Valentijn's girlfriend's blog that Joran was going out with her best friend, a fellow 7th grader -- no confirmation of anything more than dating. This was as recent as March of this year.


Title: Money laundering
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:09:13 AM
when i was in venezuela the biggest bank, Banco Latino, 6 billion in assets, went belly up because of some "bad currency investments" by its offshore subsidiary in Aruba.  the bank was used by its board as a sort of petty cash box,  preferential loans on non performing projects all over the place.  took the whole banking sytem down with it.  What are offshore  banks and casinos for if not money laundering.  so yes, that element is present there.  the oil refinery is also big business.  tourism is useful for the cash it generates which facilitates the laundering.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:10:14 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
K in Tx

If the body isnt found and he is set free and assuming he does have some sort of personality disturbance and uncontrollable rage, you can be sure something will happen to someone in the future, so if hes not convicted for Natalies sake of any wrong doing, he probably will be for someone else in the future.
That is of course unless practice makes perfect!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 27, 2005, 12:12:54 AM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "natfortplum"
It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Yes, there is confirmation from Valentijn's girlfriend's blog that Joran was going out with her best friend, a fellow 7th grader -- no confirmation of anything more than dating. This was as recent as March of this year.


Um, okay, now that's just GROSS.  How many seniors want to date SEVENTH graders?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:13:57 AM
I had yoga too one time, and i lied also sometimes, i went also to a psyatrist( excuse my spelling :oops: ) Maybe i`m a sociopath as well??

jeeazzz that `s scary.... :shock:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 27, 2005, 12:14:10 AM
I asked this question quite a few pages back and never got an answer.

How do we know this is the right person?? There are several Tom Holloway's listed with phones in MS. And there are the Tom Holloway's that have unlisted numbers or cell phones that wouldn't be listed. It appears that this is a common name. Where is the proof please that this indeed a relative involved with the investment company ....and what would be gained by Natalee's disappearance??


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 27, 2005, 12:14:35 AM
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "natfortplum"
It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Yes, there is confirmation from Valentijn's girlfriend's blog that Joran was going out with her best friend, a fellow 7th grader -- no confirmation of anything more than dating. This was as recent as March of this year.


Um, okay, now that's just GROSS.  How many seniors want to date SEVENTH graders?


I don't know... she is a very pretty girl, though. And her best friend was dating Joran's brother, who was in the 9th grade.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 27, 2005, 12:14:54 AM
Quote from: "luna"
geez louise...professor:

"he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist."

You have this kid diagnosed as being a sociopath, animal abuser, and something else I can't remember now....I'm sure you will remind me!

His mother said he "TOOK" yoga class, not that he was "sent" to yoga class.  We don't know for certain he is seeing a psychiatrist....and if he is, that is quite a stretch to sociopath.

The discussions here tonight are so far overboard, no pun intended, it's disgusting.  I don't know if Joran killed Nat or not....and neither do you! But you have him tried and convicted...

He told a lie about dropping Nat off....but so far as I can tell, he changed his story to taking her to the Marriott after that.  I think he told the first lie cus he didn't want anyone, his parents or her parents, to know they had sex on the beach.  He's 17, scared and maybe a little stupid.

A sociopath that does not make!!!


Umm, yeah.  They're theories.  I have no idea if the Professor is onto something.  Basically though, we need more brainstorming.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "natfortplum"
It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Yes, there is confirmation from Valentijn's girlfriend's blog that Joran was going out with her best friend, a fellow 7th grader -- no confirmation of anything more than dating. This was as recent as March of this year.


Um, okay, now that's just GROSS.  How many seniors want to date SEVENTH graders?


isn't that the Asian girl we have heard about before? 13 yrs old


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:15:00 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I had yoga too one time, and i lied also sometimes, i went also to a psyatrist( excuse my spelling :oops: ) Maybe i`m a sociopath as well??

jeeazzz that `s scary.... :shock:


OK! I ain't touchin' that one!  
You're welcome!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:15:15 AM
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "candygirl"
what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?


candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.


 i would think a vip plane, depending on where it is going, would get off real easy.  would not if headed to US.  we have preinspection in aruba if i am not mistaken


But, if they whisked her away on a private plane...don't you think someone would have noticed her, or remembered her?  I mean, I've flown on a private jet before, and there are still employees that help you to the plane, etc.  I have to think they would remember her??
 

depends on how big a plane.  

we had a scenario here a few nites back where she went out in the luggage (costume trunks, drum and instrument cases, etc)  that would not be checked on a private outgoing VIP flight depending on where it was going.  For example to st maarten it would be a domestic flight,  did we find out where they went next?  .


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 27, 2005, 12:15:52 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"

isn't that the Asian girl we have heard about before? 13 yrs old


She appears to be of Indian descent, has an Indian name.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 27, 2005, 12:16:52 AM
I'm fascinated by this search they are doing...

I never knew cadaver dogs can smell a body even if it's ten feet under water!!!

I'm watching a Fox repeat.

Also, good point made by former NY detective.  He thinks the body has to be close to where Natalee was last seen...the timeline is too tight..and he's 17 yrs. old.  Hmmmmmmm.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:16:59 AM
Listen, a 17 year old in the "dutch opinion"or a 15 year old or a 16 year old for that effect isn`t scary at all if they`re date or have a 'relationship' with a girl with that age ...sorry that`s illegal in the US but not in other countries ...so what`s the point?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:17:06 AM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "luna"
geez louise...professor:

"he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist."

You have this kid diagnosed as being a sociopath, animal abuser, and something else I can't remember now....I'm sure you will remind me!

His mother said he "TOOK" yoga class, not that he was "sent" to yoga class.  We don't know for certain he is seeing a psychiatrist....and if he is, that is quite a stretch to sociopath.

The discussions here tonight are so far overboard, no pun intended, it's disgusting.  I don't know if Joran killed Nat or not....and neither do you! But you have him tried and convicted...

He told a lie about dropping Nat off....but so far as I can tell, he changed his story to taking her to the Marriott after that.  I think he told the first lie cus he didn't want anyone, his parents or her parents, to know they had sex on the beach.  He's 17, scared and maybe a little stupid.

A sociopath that does not make!!!


Umm, yeah.  They're theories.  I have no idea if the Professor is onto something.  Basically though, we need more brainstorming.


I agree, a nascent insanity defense.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 27, 2005, 12:17:10 AM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "natfortplum"
It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Yes, there is confirmation from Valentijn's girlfriend's blog that Joran was going out with her best friend, a fellow 7th grader -- no confirmation of anything more than dating. This was as recent as March of this year.


Um, okay, now that's just GROSS.  How many seniors want to date SEVENTH graders?


I don't know... she is a very pretty girl, though. And her best friend was dating Joran's brother, who was in the 9th grade.


Pretty or not...GROSS!  Maybe things are different outside of the US, but I know for a fact that when I was in high school, especially as a senior, any senior guy that would have dared to date a 7th grader would have been deemed a weirdo.  Heck, we had some seniors that dated freshman, and even THEY got tons of flack.  It's weird to me, but that's just my opinion, as usual!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 27, 2005, 12:18:17 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Professor wrote:

Quote
Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering
.)

HUh.............who is Hendrik Croes??


Minister of Justice for the whole island. His law firm also represent several banks known for money laundering. Not "accused" of money laundering, mind you. KNOWN for money laundering.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:18:30 AM
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "luna"
geez louise...professor:

"he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist."

You have this kid diagnosed as being a sociopath, animal abuser, and something else I can't remember now....I'm sure you will remind me!

His mother said he "TOOK" yoga class, not that he was "sent" to yoga class.  We don't know for certain he is seeing a psychiatrist....and if he is, that is quite a stretch to sociopath.

The discussions here tonight are so far overboard, no pun intended, it's disgusting.  I don't know if Joran killed Nat or not....and neither do you! But you have him tried and convicted...

He told a lie about dropping Nat off....but so far as I can tell, he changed his story to taking her to the Marriott after that.  I think he told the first lie cus he didn't want anyone, his parents or her parents, to know they had sex on the beach.  He's 17, scared and maybe a little stupid.

A sociopath that does not make!!!


Umm, yeah.  They're theories.  I have no idea if the Professor is onto something.  Basically though, we need more brainstorming.


Seems to me the Professor is simply pointing out exactly what a sociopath is and that may or may not be a shoe that fits SONNY BOY!  But it does "seem' like it could fit!  And that is MY OPINION!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tila_Bean on June 27, 2005, 12:18:59 AM
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "KerinTX"

isn't that the Asian girl we have heard about before? 13 yrs old


She appears to be of Indian descent, has an Indian name.


Any pictures of this girl?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 27, 2005, 12:19:29 AM
Teenage girls seem to grow up so much faster these days... they seem much more interested in boys and dressing sexy.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 27, 2005, 12:19:51 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Listen, a 17 year old in the "dutch opinion"or a 15 year old or a 16 year old for that effect isn`t scary at all if they`re date or have a 'relationship' with a girl with that age ...sorry that`s illegal in the US but not in other countries ...so what`s the point?


Sorry...I'm not trying to start a debate here.  Being that I am from the US, that's the only opinion I have.  And, it isn't exactly illegal for a 17 year old to date a 13 year old in the US, but it would be considered a little odd.  

So, my point was that...it's weird to me.  Doesn't mean it has to be weird to everyone.  I wasn't implying that!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 12:20:03 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "HannieC"
Professor wrote:

Quote
Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering
.)

HUh.............who is Hendrik Croes??


Minister of Justice for the whole island. His law firm also represent several banks known for money laundering. Not "accused" of money laundering, mind you. KNOWN for money laundering.


He is the guy that old Geraldo last nite that PVDS was arrested so his son would talk,,,


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 27, 2005, 12:20:35 AM
Dallas Also...."Basically though, we need more brainstorming."

I'm all for brainstorming....but saying that because someone took yoga, that is the CLINCHER that he's a sociopath?????

Give me a f***ing break.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 27, 2005, 12:20:37 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "HannieC"
Professor wrote:

Quote
Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering
.)

HUh.............who is Hendrik Croes??


Minister of Justice for the whole island. His law firm also represent several banks known for money laundering. Not "accused" of money laundering, mind you. KNOWN for money laundering.


I hate to say it, but I will.  Was Paulus Van Der Sloot's release today an evidence of governmental corruption?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 27, 2005, 12:20:38 AM
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "KerinTX"

isn't that the Asian girl we have heard about before? 13 yrs old


She appears to be of Indian descent, has an Indian name.


Any pictures of this girl?

Even if you had a picture, you wouldn't want to post it here if she's 13yrs old and has nothing at all to do with case.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 27, 2005, 12:20:41 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "HannieC"
Professor wrote:

Quote
Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering
.)

HUh.............who is Hendrik Croes??


Minister of Justice for the whole island. His law firm also represent several banks known for money laundering. Not "accused" of money laundering, mind you. KNOWN for money laundering.


This theory is way, way, way, out there!!!  This is not Patty Hearst we're talking about here.  Money laundering?  She was last seen with a teenager.  She's missing and he admits leaving her at the beach.  Where does money laundering come into play here?  Don't answer that.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 12:21:37 AM
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
I'm fascinated by this search they are doing...

I never knew cadaver dogs can smell a body even if it's ten feet under water!!!

I'm watching a Fox repeat.

Also, good point made by former NY detective.  He thinks the body has to be close to where Natalee was last seen...the timeline is too tight..and he's 17 yrs. old.  Hmmmmmmm.


The tight timeline assumes they didnt do anything with her the next day and get rid of her in a better place.  Hopefully they didnt because that makes it easier to find her.  I dont believe she was ever at the Marriott, and think she is somewhere on the other side of the island, somewhere they didnt mention in the opposite direction of where they said she was.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 27, 2005, 12:21:48 AM
Quote from: "kkial"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "HannieC"
Professor wrote:

Quote
Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering
.)

HUh.............who is Hendrik Croes??


Minister of Justice for the whole island. His law firm also represent several banks known for money laundering. Not "accused" of money laundering, mind you. KNOWN for money laundering.


He is the guy that old Geraldo last nite that PVDS was arrested so his son would talk,,,


No, that was RUDY Croes.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:21:50 AM
Sorry K in Tx i wasn`t aiming at you, but I heard that statement before and I just say it isn`t such big a deal in europe...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:22:00 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Listen, a 17 year old in the "dutch opinion"or a 15 year old or a 16 year old for that effect isn`t scary at all if they`re date or have a 'relationship' with a girl with that age ...sorry that`s illegal in the US but not in other countries ...so what`s the point?


Per the sources previously noted there was statment of Dutch/Aruban law!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:22:10 AM
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "natfortplum"
It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Yes, there is confirmation from Valentijn's girlfriend's blog that Joran was going out with her best friend, a fellow 7th grader -- no confirmation of anything more than dating. This was as recent as March of this year.


Um, okay, now that's just GROSS.  How many seniors want to date SEVENTH graders?


I don't know... she is a very pretty girl, though. And her best friend was dating Joran's brother, who was in the 9th grade.


Pretty or not...GROSS!  Maybe things are different outside of the US, but I know for a fact that when I was in high school, especially as a senior, any senior guy that would have dared to date a 7th grader would have been deemed a weirdo.  Heck, we had some seniors that dated freshman, and even THEY got tons of flack.  It's weird to me, but that's just my opinion, as usual!
 

but wait, if he is a cradle robber why did he take to Natalee who is older than he is?  that does not track wiht the "likes em young" postulation.  and you know what, did you never see the little ones who got a crush on an older boy and it is just some innocent thing?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 27, 2005, 12:22:16 AM
We are brainstorming.  

Please reserve your judgements, if at all possible.  Ask questions for clarification, or post facts that would dispute any theory.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: la_cavaličre on June 27, 2005, 12:22:18 AM
Quote from: "klaasend"
Even if you had a picture, you wouldn't want to post it here if she's 13yrs old and has nothing at all to do with case.


Yes, I'd rather protect her privacy.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:24:03 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "luna"
geez louise...professor:

"he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist."

You have this kid diagnosed as being a sociopath, animal abuser, and something else I can't remember now....I'm sure you will remind me!

His mother said he "TOOK" yoga class, not that he was "sent" to yoga class.  We don't know for certain he is seeing a psychiatrist....and if he is, that is quite a stretch to sociopath.

The discussions here tonight are so far overboard, no pun intended, it's disgusting.  I don't know if Joran killed Nat or not....and neither do you! But you have him tried and convicted...

He told a lie about dropping Nat off....but so far as I can tell, he changed his story to taking her to the Marriott after that.  I think he told the first lie cus he didn't want anyone, his parents or her parents, to know they had sex on the beach.  He's 17, scared and maybe a little stupid.

A sociopath that does not make!!!


Umm, yeah.  They're theories.  I have no idea if the Professor is onto something.  Basically though, we need more brainstorming.


Seems to me the Professor is simply pointing out exactly what a sociopath is and that may or may not be a shoe that fits SONNY BOY!  But it does "seem' like it could fit!  And that is MY OPINION!
 

May fit but what does it mean?  murder does not follow.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 27, 2005, 12:24:10 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "luna"
geez louise...professor:

"he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist."

You have this kid diagnosed as being a sociopath, animal abuser, and something else I can't remember now....I'm sure you will remind me!

His mother said he "TOOK" yoga class, not that he was "sent" to yoga class.  We don't know for certain he is seeing a psychiatrist....and if he is, that is quite a stretch to sociopath.

The discussions here tonight are so far overboard, no pun intended, it's disgusting.  I don't know if Joran killed Nat or not....and neither do you! But you have him tried and convicted...

He told a lie about dropping Nat off....but so far as I can tell, he changed his story to taking her to the Marriott after that.  I think he told the first lie cus he didn't want anyone, his parents or her parents, to know they had sex on the beach.  He's 17, scared and maybe a little stupid.

A sociopath that does not make!!!


Umm, yeah.  They're theories.  I have no idea if the Professor is onto something.  Basically though, we need more brainstorming.


I agree, a nascent insanity defense.


Iquitos, being a sociopath is NEVER grounds for an insanity defense. Sociopaths are in COMPLETE CONTROL AT ALL TIMES.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: GuyWdog on June 27, 2005, 12:24:30 AM
My lasy post of the nght before bed. Some of you have labeled me a "FAN or JORANS" that is the Fartherest from the truth. it seems when you have a differeing opinion you are Labeled just as these 3 boys and 2 men have been labeled all sorts of names. While I readily admit thast Joran et;al made a huge mistake with their testimony to the police, it is still a stretch to call them gang rapists, murders, sociopaths, and the like. It is just wrong(but that's just my opinion). I will however stick to y original assesments that most people on here are "going on Emotions, rahther than reasoning" with that said I appreciate those of you that derided me also in public. I ment not to point fingers but was making an observation and when I did that I get labeled again.
 Yes there is much hypocracy, enough to go around. But for tonight, I'll leave you all to it. Maybe there is not enough room on here for a dissenting view(but really I am Not a dissenter but am a open minded person).
 I in no way meant to deride anyone, as if you look at my posts I mentined no names as some of the posters have done. I was making an observation and beleive me when I say there are LOTS of people that agree with me as I have recieved MANY PM's from them to voice theeir agreements about the route the board is taking. I fear that when you have a mob rule mentality, the truth will forever be lost and NO ONE will Benefit. I want the TRUTH to come out, and the ONLY way it can come out is if LEVEL heads prevail. I want Joran or whoever did this dastradly deed to have EVERY BENEFT of the DOUBT, for when the evidence comes out that they did it, then they then will get punished to the fullest extint. If he is convicted before hand, amny people around the world will cry foul !
 Enough said, goodnight all and thanx to you all...

GuyWdog


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 27, 2005, 12:24:36 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
I'm fascinated by this search they are doing...

I never knew cadaver dogs can smell a body even if it's ten feet under water!!!

I'm watching a Fox repeat.

Also, good point made by former NY detective.  He thinks the body has to be close to where Natalee was last seen...the timeline is too tight..and he's 17 yrs. old.  Hmmmmmmm.


The tight timeline assumes they didnt do anything with her the next day and get rid of her in a better place.  Hopefully they didnt because that makes it easier to find her.  I dont believe she was ever at the Marriott, and think she is somewhere on the other side of the island, somewhere they didnt mention in the opposite direction of where they said she was.


TAZ_MAN, I agree that there is no evidence that she was ever at the Marriott.  No witnesses, no sandal or necklace found in the sand.  We did have a Clorox bottle, some condoms, some rope (or tape, which was it?), some women's underwear.  But there is no announcement that these items had any DNA or other evidence to prove that she was ever at the Marriott.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:24:58 AM
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: K in TX on June 27, 2005, 12:25:01 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "natfortplum"
It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.


Yes, there is confirmation from Valentijn's girlfriend's blog that Joran was going out with her best friend, a fellow 7th grader -- no confirmation of anything more than dating. This was as recent as March of this year.


Um, okay, now that's just GROSS.  How many seniors want to date SEVENTH graders?


I don't know... she is a very pretty girl, though. And her best friend was dating Joran's brother, who was in the 9th grade.


Pretty or not...GROSS!  Maybe things are different outside of the US, but I know for a fact that when I was in high school, especially as a senior, any senior guy that would have dared to date a 7th grader would have been deemed a weirdo.  Heck, we had some seniors that dated freshman, and even THEY got tons of flack.  It's weird to me, but that's just my opinion, as usual!
 

but wait, if he is a cradle robber why did he take to Natalee who is older than he is?  that does not track wiht the "likes em young" postulation.  and you know what, did you never see the little ones who got a crush on an older boy and it is just some innocent thing?


An innocent crush on an older boy is one thing.  I'm a girl...we've all had them.  And Natalee is hardly "older" than Joran.  Ok, maybe by a few months?  I"m not saying he's a cradle robber...just that it's weird that a 17 year old would...crap.  Nevermind.  It's late.  I'm going to bed.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Tila_Bean on June 27, 2005, 12:25:07 AM
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Quote from: "la_cavaličre"
Quote from: "KerinTX"

isn't that the Asian girl we have heard about before? 13 yrs old


She appears to be of Indian descent, has an Indian name.


Any pictures of this girl?

Even if you had a picture, you wouldn't want to post it here if she's 13yrs old and has nothing at all to do with case.


I was just curious to see where she may be from, but you are absolutely right. :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 27, 2005, 12:25:32 AM
iquitos..."I agree, a nascent insanity defense."

THAT made me laugh! :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:26:25 AM
TT if we`re going to investigate laws by the letter we can go far. I live in the netherlands And I know that`s not a big deal here 3 years or 2 years  difference.... :wink:

if they are 14 and they are hooked up with a 28 year old or something then you are right, but not so little difference as 2 or 4 years in difference just a culture thing....again :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Dallas Also on June 27, 2005, 12:27:47 AM
Quote from: "luna"
Dallas Also...."Basically though, we need more brainstorming."

I'm all for brainstorming....but saying that because someone took yoga, that is the CLINCHER that he's a sociopath?????

Give me a f***ing break.


Luna, yeah that would be out there.

However, Arubagirl confirmed that she has solid testimony, from a source she can't name, that he was seeing a psychiatrist, both alone and also in sessions with another family member.

That is the fact we were working off of.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 27, 2005, 12:28:23 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
wow...I like this guy on Geraldo right now!!! The pastor


I liked that pastor too..and i am sure i'll get slammed for this one, but Steve croes's mom broke my heart!! That poor lady... :cry:

Kerin, check your PM's...


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 27, 2005, 12:29:01 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: jane on June 27, 2005, 12:29:54 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
I had yoga too one time, and i lied also sometimes, i went also to a psyatrist( excuse my spelling :oops: ) Maybe i`m a sociopath as well??

jeeazzz that `s scary.... :shock:


If you are, you would never admit it:) Sociopaths aren't known for their honesty or introspection. I think the most important thing, though, is that you were not the last one seen in the company of Natalee Holloway. That kind of makes a difference.


Title: Tourism
Post by: MominTN on June 27, 2005, 12:30:33 AM
The tourism makes the island's businesses look legitimate.  The casinos provide a way to look like alot of money changed hands legally.  They bring in investment money and bank accounts from overseas which go into the local banks allowing them in turn to loan out the money for more construction and ventures.  Money could be made in drug trafficking, but stated to be casino revenue or Tattoo revenue or one of those business ventures advertised for sale on the internet, and unless those who have proof confessed or became a witness, no crime exists.  We all see how fast the police are in gathering evidence and arresting those who are powerful or connected.
Do they have record of drug busts?  Is this something they pursue?
I think the kids, ignorant of the consequences, did something bad to Natalee and now the adults are trying to cover it up before they lose their shirts.  
I think Aruba has more corruption than anything you can dig up on AMSouth or the Twittys ever thought about.  But that is just my opinion.  Probably the natives are good people and unaware of the corruption.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 27, 2005, 12:31:45 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


We don't know he "kicked the shit out of his little brother", where the heck did that come from?

I agree his comment to his mother about about her being gone is rather weird. But, a sociopath?  Not sure that's a "classical" tell tale sign.  Professor, I agree you go waaayyyyyy out there. Not sure why you do that?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: wwizard on June 27, 2005, 12:31:48 AM
eye'm spiraling....GTG....ben fun......cu....B.....Y......E


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Shell on June 27, 2005, 12:33:08 AM
This is just too weird...sometime between a bar closing at 1am, and 3 am when supposedly Jordan gets home from walking 40 min or so, a girl is killed and disposed of? That is assuming he was home when he text messaged his buddy and says I am home. And remember his Dad says he does not remember waking Jordan up that morning. Well, that statement is bullshit. He knew it was Monday and Monday is a school day. What is the man's problem.

This is why we are all banging our heads here. She left with 3 strangers. They were seen with her last and she was alive then, and now there is no Natalie.
They lied, changed stories...I can't get past that to jump to the conclusion that they were not responsible. Just can't. :cry:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 27, 2005, 12:33:22 AM
Quote from: "luna"
Dallas Also...."Basically though, we need more brainstorming."

I'm all for brainstorming....but saying that because someone took yoga, that is the CLINCHER that he's a sociopath?????

Give me a f***ing break.


*applause*


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:33:52 AM
Quote from: "jane"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I had yoga too one time, and i lied also sometimes, i went also to a psyatrist( excuse my spelling :oops: ) Maybe i`m a sociopath as well??

jeeazzz that `s scary.... :shock:


If you are, you would never admit it:) Sociopaths aren't known for their honesty or introspection. I think the most important thing, though, is that you were not the last one seen in the company of Natalee Holloway. That kind of makes a difference.
LOL!  Very deductive!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: jane on June 27, 2005, 12:35:01 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Listen, a 17 year old in the "dutch opinion"or a 15 year old or a 16 year old for that effect isn`t scary at all if they`re date or have a 'relationship' with a girl with that age ...sorry that`s illegal in the US but not in other countries ...so what`s the point?


Apparently, the culture she is in thought it was a big deal. Her mother kept her home from school for a day for it, and the following day, there seems to have been some emotional upset for the girl in school over it. Also, IF there was a sexual relationship between the two, it is against the law, there. So, I think that culture is similar to our own in that regard.

Also, when individuals within a culture deviate too far from the norm in this way, they are called deviants. I do think that whatever happened to Natalee Holloway was probably done to her by a deviant.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 27, 2005, 12:36:32 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Sorry K in Tx i wasn`t aiming at you, but I heard that statement before and I just say it isn`t such big a deal in europe...


Certainly would not be a big deal anywhere in Latin America, either, in fact it is quite common.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:36:38 AM
Thanks GuyWdog, you re absolutly right , we al have our opinions, some are drifting but they still haqve there opinions that doesn`t make you wrong to have an open mind!

G`night an see you soon :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: cast on June 27, 2005, 12:36:52 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


Are you a professional that has diagnosed Joran and family from afar. Damn you are good. What are your hourly rates?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 12:37:11 AM
Quote from: "Shell"
This is just too weird...sometime between a bar closing at 1am, and 3 am when supposedly Jordan gets home from walking 40 min or so, a girl is killed and disposed of? That is assuming he was home when he text messaged his buddy and says I am home. And remember his Dad says he does not remember waking Jordan up that morning. Well, that statement is bullshit. He knew it was Monday and Monday is a school day. What is the man's problem.

This is why we are all banging our heads here. She left with 3 strangers. They were seen with her last and she was alive then, and now there is no Natalie.
They lied, changed stories...I can't get past that to jump to the conclusion that they were not responsible. Just can't. :cry:


The reason everyone is so frustrated is because our logical mind sees the answer but the emotional side wants to give people the benefit of the doubt.  The frustation comes because logic keeps battleing the emotional side causing a vicious circle.  Another element that adds to frustation is that our logical mind knows the answer is held within one person and that is Joran and without is confession there will be unanswered questions which is something hard for the human mind to process.  We would rather have bad news than no news at all.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:37:51 AM
Quote from: "Shell"
This is just too weird...sometime between a bar closing at 1am, and 3 am when supposedly Jordan gets home from walking 40 min or so, a girl is killed and disposed of? That is assuming he was home when he text messaged his buddy and says I am home. And remember his Dad says he does not remember waking Jordan up that morning. Well, that statement is bullshit. He knew it was Monday and Monday is a school day. What is the man's problem.

This is why we are all banging our heads here. She left with 3 strangers. They were seen with her last and she was alive then, and now there is no Natalie.
They lied, changed stories...I can't get past that to jump to the conclusion that they were not responsible. Just can't. :cry:


Well, if he says "I don't remember" he cannot be called a liar.  Thus a simple cop out!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 12:38:04 AM
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


Are you a professional that has diagnosed Joran and family from afar. Damn you are good. What are your hourly rates?


I dont think that was necessary.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 27, 2005, 12:38:42 AM
"Professor"....perhaps you did not see my comment previously re this statement

"Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and ..."

I saw the FOX interview with Anita.....the clip is still on their website as far as I know.

She said he "TOOK" yoga in school...and was using what he'd learned to help him in jail.

There was no connection between him kicking his younger brother and him taking yoga.  

This is ridiculous.....to say that this confirms he is a sociopath is so absurd that I can't believe I'm even commenting on it.

Lord have mercy....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 12:38:46 AM
:::jumping out of the loft for a comment:::

WHY does FOX ask people to come on to be interviewed and then they CUT everyone of them OFF? I mean, COME ON!!!!!

::::jumping back up:::


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 27, 2005, 12:38:47 AM
Quote from: "Shell"
This is just too weird...sometime between a bar closing at 1am, and 3 am when supposedly Jordan gets home from walking 40 min or so, a girl is killed and disposed of? That is assuming he was home when he text messaged his buddy and says I am home. And remember his Dad says he does not remember waking Jordan up that morning. Well, that statement is bullshit. He knew it was Monday and Monday is a school day. What is the man's problem.

This is why we are all banging our heads here. She left with 3 strangers. They were seen with her last and she was alive then, and now there is no Natalie.
They lied, changed stories...I can't get past that to jump to the conclusion that they were not responsible. Just can't. :cry:

I agree.  I think it's very simple.  Either Joran or all 3 of them tried to take advantage of her...she got mad/scared and they killed her or, she died from a drug/alchohol overdose and they disposed of her body.  I'm praying they find her body soon.


Title: release of paulus v/d sloot
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:39:07 AM
Was the release of paulus v/d sloot indicitative of government corruption?    Doubt it.  Dutch judge no likely fiddleable.  Probablity that his detention was a tool to pressure his son and appease the TwittyHolloways/US  press  Cops and inexperienced second string former colleagues of the accused thought they could make the case to the judge and they failed.  The whole case has been about taking calculated risks and they have failed 4 out of 7.  Probably need a change of venue after charges are brought.  If you can't find a body you can't find it.  I guess most serious error was underestimating the magnitude of the crime and not conducting a better search in the first days whether the securuty guards took her or not.  Of course they didn't know where to look because they had no real leads.   Now what have I missed?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 27, 2005, 12:39:23 AM
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


We don't know he "kicked the shit out of his little brother", where the heck did that come from?

I agree his comment to his mother about about her being gone is rather weird. But, a sociopath?  Not sure that's a "classical" tell tale sign.  Professor, I agree you go waaayyyyyy out there. Not sure why you do that?


Beating up on the little brother came from Greta's interview.
I am not the first to call this boy a sociopath.
I have posted the profile of the Narcissist, and given my evidence.
Others have posted the profile of the sociopath.
(All that was missing was a photo of Joran)
You have had this information for days, and have never given me ONE argument to the contrary, other than eye-rolls.
Bottom line: Think what you please, and I will do likewise.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 27, 2005, 12:40:46 AM
ok, i know i shouldnt post this here,and I am sorry beforehand to anyone whom i anger for getting off topic..but i thought i would give you guys a laugh...Talked to my doc today because i have been having problems with my fingers..guess what? NERVE damage..know what from? The dang computer....says it usually develops after continued use and over a rather short period of time...hmm..about the time I logged onto SM..damaged the damn ulnar nerve in my arm..from sitting here reading posts with my arm on the desk...pinky and ring finger numb as can be....cant feel a thing....LOLOLOL


OK..sorry...carry on....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: cast on June 27, 2005, 12:41:16 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


Are you a professional that has diagnosed Joran and family from afar. Damn you are good. What are your hourly rates?


I dont think that was necessary.

Nor was the previous post, but a penny for your thoughts anyway.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nancy_drew on June 27, 2005, 12:42:50 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Shell"
This is just too weird...sometime between a bar closing at 1am, and 3 am when supposedly Jordan gets home from walking 40 min or so, a girl is killed and disposed of? That is assuming he was home when he text messaged his buddy and says I am home. And remember his Dad says he does not remember waking Jordan up that morning. Well, that statement is bullshit. He knew it was Monday and Monday is a school day. What is the man's problem.

This is why we are all banging our heads here. She left with 3 strangers. They were seen with her last and she was alive then, and now there is no Natalie.
They lied, changed stories...I can't get past that to jump to the conclusion that they were not responsible. Just can't. :cry:


The reason everyone is so frustrated is because our logical mind sees the answer but the emotional side wants to give people the benefit of the doubt.  The frustation comes because logic keeps battleing the emotional side causing a vicious circle.  Another element that adds to frustation is that our logical mind knows the answer is held within one person and that is Joran and without is confession there will be unanswered questions which is something hard for the human mind to process.  We would rather have bad news than no news at all.


Of course he has to remember waking him up!  I just was listening to the interview with Joran's parents and Anita very clearly stated Joran was hard to wake up.  She was emphatic about it.  I have a kid like that and believe me you know you've had to wake them!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 12:43:04 AM
{{{{{{{{NIKKI}}}}}}}}}}

Love 'ya (and don't post a reply)  :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: goon squad on June 27, 2005, 12:43:32 AM
<<Was Paulus Van Der Sloot's release today an evidence of governmental corruption?>>


No, his arrest was evidence of law enforcement incompetence.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:43:56 AM
Quote from: "luna"
"Professor"....perhaps you did not see my comment previously re this statement

"Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and ..."

I saw the FOX interview with Anita.....the clip is still on their website as far as I know.

She said he "TOOK" yoga in school...and was using what he'd learned to help him in jail.

There was no connection between him kicking his younger brother and him taking yoga.  

This is ridiculous.....to say that this confirms he is a sociopath is so absurd that I can't believe I'm even commenting on it.

Lord have mercy....


Y'all are jumpin the Prof but, he's offering a perfectly legitamate theory/opinion which is based on educated knowledge.  Therfore, seems to me his is as welcome as any!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:44:53 AM
Jane I wasn`t talking about natalee ..sorry...
But some people here on the forum are bringing up a former girlfriend of joran who whas  13 or 14 years old! Remember when whas that? He`s now 17 so that makes him a statutory rapist or something??? hmmm he`s a sociopath a creep a urin, i guess the people who say that thing have some sort of trouble b/c the fact is whe can`t judge from a picture....I guess, but JMHO


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:45:03 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Shell"
This is just too weird...sometime between a bar closing at 1am, and 3 am when supposedly Jordan gets home from walking 40 min or so, a girl is killed and disposed of? That is assuming he was home when he text messaged his buddy and says I am home. And remember his Dad says he does not remember waking Jordan up that morning. Well, that statement is bullshit. He knew it was Monday and Monday is a school day. What is the man's problem.

This is why we are all banging our heads here. She left with 3 strangers. They were seen with her last and she was alive then, and now there is no Natalie.
They lied, changed stories...I can't get past that to jump to the conclusion that they were not responsible. Just can't. :cry:


The reason everyone is so frustrated is because our logical mind sees the answer but the emotional side wants to give people the benefit of the doubt.  The frustation comes because logic keeps battleing the emotional side causing a vicious circle.  Another element that adds to frustation is that our logical mind knows the answer is held within one person and that is Joran and without is confession there will be unanswered questions which is something hard for the human mind to process.  We would rather have bad news than no news at all.


recent studies have shown that irrational (emotional) side is residual from our reptilian state.  they call it the lizard brain.  Sure I can see where this is leading but i can't get my rational head around it either.  the sceanio just will not jell.  I think the emotional gets into the "guilty as hell equation too.  .


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dl3fan on June 27, 2005, 12:45:43 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
:::jumping out of the loft for a comment:::

WHY does FOX ask people to come on to be interviewed and then they CUT everyone of them OFF? I mean, COME ON!!!!!

::::jumping back up:::


I agree and O'reilly is the worst about that!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: jane on June 27, 2005, 12:46:04 AM
Quote
Iquitos, being a sociopath is NEVER grounds for an insanity defense. Sociopaths are in COMPLETE CONTROL AT ALL TIMES.


Sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong. They just don't care.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Britney on June 27, 2005, 12:46:28 AM
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 27, 2005, 12:46:49 AM
Quote from: "dl3fan"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
:::jumping out of the loft for a comment:::

WHY does FOX ask people to come on to be interviewed and then they CUT everyone of them OFF? I mean, COME ON!!!!!

::::jumping back up:::


I agree and O'reilly is the worst about that!


Nancy grace does that too..lol..she'll bring someone on, and if she doesnt agree with them, she'll cut  them off and say, "good night, friend"...lol


Title: Natalee Bracelet
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 12:46:49 AM
Natalee Bracelets available,,,,Google  Bracelets for Natalee and also on eBay..

There has been so much talk about Tom Twitty...Marcia Twitty that was on Fox earlier is Tom's wife and the mother of the Twitty Twins...Also Jug is a twin to Tom,,,FYI,,,

Am so glad that Jamie Colby, on last weekend has been replaced by Julie Bandarous,,,,she is better and familar with Natalee,    She was the first one in Aruba.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:47:00 AM
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 12:47:58 AM
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:48:32 AM
Quote from: "nikkibnurse"
ok, i know i shouldnt post this here,and I am sorry beforehand to anyone whom i anger for getting off topic..but i thought i would give you guys a laugh...Talked to my doc today because i have been having problems with my fingers..guess what? NERVE damage..know what from? The dang computer....says it usually develops after continued use and over a rather short period of time...hmm..about the time I logged onto SM..damaged the damn ulnar nerve in my arm..from sitting here reading posts with my arm on the desk...pinky and ring finger numb as can be....cant feel a thing....LOLOLOL


OK..sorry...carry on....


LOL!  Call a nurse! :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 27, 2005, 12:49:09 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "luna"
"Professor"....perhaps you did not see my comment previously re this statement

"Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and ..."

I saw the FOX interview with Anita.....the clip is still on their website as far as I know.

She said he "TOOK" yoga in school...and was using what he'd learned to help him in jail.

There was no connection between him kicking his younger brother and him taking yoga.  

This is ridiculous.....to say that this confirms he is a sociopath is so absurd that I can't believe I'm even commenting on it.

Lord have mercy....


Y'all are jumpin the Prof but, he's offering a perfectly legitamate theory/opinion which is based on educated knowledge.  Therfore, seems to me his is as welcome as any!


Hey mike, luv ya, but the professor is basing his "diagnosis" on an incorrect statement....one of his "classical symptoms"....eg that his mother sent him to yoga for kicking the sh*t out of his younger brothers is factually incorrect....go watch the FOX clip of the interview with Anita.  She says he "took yoga"....does that make one a sociopath?

And, besides that, for God's sake, what if he had been "sent to yoga for kicking his brother".....how in the hell does that make someone a sociopath?  His evidence is so thin, it is beyond the pale.

Okay....I'm sick of this discussion....if this is "educated knowledge" we are all in trouble.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:49:21 AM
Quote from: "nikkibnurse"
ok, i know i shouldnt post this here,and I am sorry beforehand to anyone whom i anger for getting off topic..but i thought i would give you guys a laugh...Talked to my doc today because i have been having problems with my fingers..guess what? NERVE damage..know what from? The dang computer....says it usually develops after continued use and over a rather short period of time...hmm..about the time I logged onto SM..damaged the damn ulnar nerve in my arm..from sitting here reading posts with my arm on the desk...pinky and ring finger numb as can be....cant feel a thing....LOLOLOL


OK..sorry...carry on....


HEY NIKKI B, I HAVE NO FEELING IN MORE THAN MY ARM AND PINKIE.  I HOPE YOU RECOVER SOON.  JUST KEEP YOU HAND OFF THAT KEYBOARD.  
 :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 27, 2005, 12:49:32 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.
//


thats the truth, because guilty or not, those who think he is would crucify him....


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 27, 2005, 12:49:37 AM
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


Are you a professional that has diagnosed Joran and family from afar. Damn you are good. What are your hourly rates?


I dont think that was necessary.

Nor was the previous post, but a penny for your thoughts anyway.


As far as I know, I have the same right to speculate as any of the rest of you, and I would invite you to LOOK at the profile of the sociopath and tell me if there is anything there -- ANYTHING -- that doesn't fit with the description of Joran van der Sloot you are getting through the media.

And that has a DIRECT BEARING upon what happened at closing time in Carlos and Charlies, because that explains the cunning with which Natalee was "carved out" and herded into a waiting car.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bendex on June 27, 2005, 12:49:50 AM
HI GUYS JUST LOGGED IN AGAIN NICE WORDS WRESTLEMATCH GOING ON DONT FORGET WE ARE THE MONKEES ........................

I am sure that steve croes will give his opinion tommorow and will give us lots of stuff to talk about .


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Britney on June 27, 2005, 12:49:51 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


Part of me thinks this is all a conspriacy to make the Arubian Government look like they are doing all that they can, in order to avoid bad publicity.

I wonder if they are just going through the motions, and plan on letting all of them go in 8 days? Cased dropped due to lack of evidence..Yeah right!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: AzRose on June 27, 2005, 12:50:04 AM
Quote from: "Shell"
This is just too weird...sometime between a bar closing at 1am, and 3 am when supposedly Jordan gets home from walking 40 min or so, a girl is killed and disposed of? That is assuming he was home when he text messaged his buddy and says I am home. And remember his Dad says he does not remember waking Jordan up that morning. Well, that statement is bullshit. He knew it was Monday and Monday is a school day. What is the man's problem.             quote]
                   (snipped)

Could it be that the father doesn't remember waking him up that morning because Joran was already up, having never been asleep that night?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: luna on June 27, 2005, 12:51:00 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


ummmm...let's see....they have no evidence of a crime?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 12:51:03 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.


Seems like I remember Central Florida was the place for the Arubian students.....Hope he does not decide to come here....best go to another school elsewhere..


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: nikkibnurse on June 27, 2005, 12:51:43 AM
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "luna"
"Professor"....perhaps you did not see my comment previously re this statement

"Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and ..."

I saw the FOX interview with Anita.....the clip is still on their website as far as I know.

She said he "TOOK" yoga in school...and was using what he'd learned to help him in jail.

There was no connection between him kicking his younger brother and him taking yoga.  

This is ridiculous.....to say that this confirms he is a sociopath is so absurd that I can't believe I'm even commenting on it.

Lord have mercy....


Y'all are jumpin the Prof but, he's offering a perfectly legitamate theory/opinion which is based on educated knowledge.  Therfore, seems to me his is as welcome as any!


Hey mike, luv ya, but the professor is basing his "diagnosis" on an incorrect statement....one of his "classical symptoms"....eg that his mother sent him to yoga for kicking the sh*t out of his younger brothers is factually incorrect....go watch the FOX clip of the interview with Anita.  She says he "took yoga"....does that make one a sociopath?

And, besides that, for God's sake, what if he had been "sent to yoga for kicking his brother".....how in the hell does that make someone a sociopath?  His evidence is so thin, it is beyond the pale.

Okay....I'm sick of this discussion....if this is "educated knowledge" we are all in trouble.



I am presently,  happily referring anyone who wants the diagnosis and description of a true sociopath to please see the DSM4... :D


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 27, 2005, 12:52:17 AM
So much stuff about sociopaths. Impossible???....not at all. But you can be guilty of murder without being a sociopath.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 12:52:47 AM
Quote from: "Curiosity"
So much stuff about sociopaths. Impossible???....not at all. But you can be guilty of murder without being a sociopath.


Yes but if you look at the description of a sociopath, thats assuming the stories about joran are true, he fits quite a few of them.  

The only thing missing is the criminal element.  I personally dont need to label him anything to see that hes guilty of something.  I just find the similarities interesting.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:53:37 AM
I think Nancy Grace is the pure excample yeah, That woman is so bitter she can`t even be objective ,,,that`s scary yeah :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Sobelle on June 27, 2005, 12:53:39 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


When ADVS said that statement in her interview I took it to mean he'd like to kick her butt for all the trouble she has caused him and their family. If innocent I don't really have a major problem with what he said since he would have only thought  she was just missing at that time and nothing more. Kids say some strange things sometimes and don't really mean them.  Now, if he is guilty then the boy has some major. major problems and I would agree with you.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 12:54:29 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:54:35 AM
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "luna"
"Professor"....perhaps you did not see my comment previously re this statement

"Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and ..."

I saw the FOX interview with Anita.....the clip is still on their website as far as I know.

She said he "TOOK" yoga in school...and was using what he'd learned to help him in jail.

There was no connection between him kicking his younger brother and him taking yoga.  
Well, I can't say whether you or he is right on that, but that was NOT the only documented instance of violent or out of control behavior. ie. "throwing a classmate through a plate glass windaw"!  I've never done that!  :shock:

This is ridiculous.....to say that this confirms he is a sociopath is so absurd that I can't believe I'm even commenting on it.

Lord have mercy....


Y'all are jumpin the Prof but, he's offering a perfectly legitamate theory/opinion which is based on educated knowledge.  Therfore, seems to me his is as welcome as any!


Hey mike, luv ya, but the professor is basing his "diagnosis" on an incorrect statement....one of his "classical symptoms"....eg that his mother sent him to yoga for kicking the sh*t out of his younger brothers is factually incorrect....go watch the FOX clip of the interview with Anita.  She says he "took yoga"....does that make one a sociopath?

And, besides that, for God's sake, what if he had been "sent to yoga for kicking his brother".....how in the hell does that make someone a sociopath?  His evidence is so thin, it is beyond the pale.

Okay....I'm sick of this discussion....if this is "educated knowledge" we are all in trouble.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Twelve Monkeys on June 27, 2005, 12:54:42 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.



At the very least not any college in the South.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: jane on June 27, 2005, 12:55:26 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


It seems Anita is showing signs of denial and just trying to find some way of dealing with her son. I would like to know if Anita accepted Joran's invitation to accept the responsibilty for his actions. I don't think he would have used it if it hadn't worked before. I'll bet it has been difficult for her dealing with her manipulative, lying son. There has been convincing evidence that some people are born with this disorder and the rest of the family get 'sick' trying to cope with it.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 12:56:15 AM
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
My lasy post of the nght before bed. Some of you have labeled me a "FAN or JORANS" that is the Fartherest from the truth. it seems when you have a differeing opinion you are Labeled just as these 3 boys and 2 men have been labeled all sorts of names. While I readily admit thast Joran et;al made a huge mistake with their testimony to the police, it is still a stretch to call them gang rapists, murders, sociopaths, and the like. It is just wrong(but that's just my opinion). I will however stick to y original assesments that most people on here are "going on Emotions, rahther than reasoning" with that said I appreciate those of you that derided me also in public. I ment not to point fingers but was making an observation and when I did that I get labeled again.
 Yes there is much hypocracy, enough to go around. But for tonight, I'll leave you all to it. Maybe there is not enough room on here for a dissenting view(but really I am Not a dissenter but am a open minded person).  
 I in no way meant to deride anyone, as if you look at my posts I mentined no names as some of the posters have done. I was making an observation and beleive me when I say there are LOTS of people that agree with me as I have recieved MANY PM's from them to voice theeir agreements about the route the board is taking. I fear that when you have a mob rule mentality, the truth will forever be lost and NO ONE will Benefit. I want the TRUTH to come out, and the ONLY way it can come out is if LEVEL heads prevail. I want Joran or whoever did this dastradly deed to have EVERY BENEFT of the DOUBT, for when the evidence comes out that they did it, then they then will get punished to the fullest extint. If he is convicted before hand, amny people around the world will cry foul !
 Enough said, goodnight all and thanx to you all...

GuyWdog


GUY:  YOURS HAS BEEN A VERY HEALTHY AND NEEDED PERSPECTVE FOR ALL OF US,  YOU ARE RIGHT ON


Title: Underground Parties
Post by: LouLou on June 27, 2005, 12:56:29 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Pine and FOM,
I bet a lot of posters don't know the "WIZ THEORY". So Mr. Wiz, please re-post would ya, please???  :wink:


There was someone, mentioned on the Aruba board, he was a DJ, I think, that had after hours parties.

I can't really remember his name but it might have been Whitley or some such.  

A.girl...does that ring a bell?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 12:58:28 AM
Quote from: "Britney"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


Part of me thinks this is all a conspriacy to make the Arubian Government look like they are doing all that they can, in order to avoid bad publicity.

I wonder if they are just going through the motions, and plan on letting all of them go in 8 days? Cased dropped due to lack of evidence..Yeah right!!


But isn't it reported that the reason he was held was because he provided an alibi that was simply proven to be wrong!  Hello?  If so any of SONNY BOY"S friends can feel free to hep out!  Doncha thank!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 12:59:34 AM
You know all what is still bothering me..........


That guy who greta mentioned that was not seen anywhere , who whas in the same plane as natalee. Why would greta bring that up on National TV if it wasn`t a good or solid thing, since al the attention was on the kalpoes and joran and the whole family..... :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 27, 2005, 01:00:09 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
My lasy post of the nght before bed. Some of you have labeled me a "FAN or JORANS" that is the Fartherest from the truth. it seems when you have a differeing opinion you are Labeled just as these 3 boys and 2 men have been labeled all sorts of names. While I readily admit thast Joran et;al made a huge mistake with their testimony to the police, it is still a stretch to call them gang rapists, murders, sociopaths, and the like. It is just wrong(but that's just my opinion). I will however stick to y original assesments that most people on here are "going on Emotions, rahther than reasoning" with that said I appreciate those of you that derided me also in public. I ment not to point fingers but was making an observation and when I did that I get labeled again.
 Yes there is much hypocracy, enough to go around. But for tonight, I'll leave you all to it. Maybe there is not enough room on here for a dissenting view(but really I am Not a dissenter but am a open minded person).  
 I in no way meant to deride anyone, as if you look at my posts I mentined no names as some of the posters have done. I was making an observation and beleive me when I say there are LOTS of people that agree with me as I have recieved MANY PM's from them to voice theeir agreements about the route the board is taking. I fear that when you have a mob rule mentality, the truth will forever be lost and NO ONE will Benefit. I want the TRUTH to come out, and the ONLY way it can come out is if LEVEL heads prevail. I want Joran or whoever did this dastradly deed to have EVERY BENEFT of the DOUBT, for when the evidence comes out that they did it, then they then will get punished to the fullest extint. If he is convicted before hand, amny people around the world will cry foul !
 Enough said, goodnight all and thanx to you all...

GuyWdog


GUY:  YOURS HAS BEEN A VERY HEALTHY AND NEEDED PERSPECTVE FOR ALL OF US,  YOU ARE RIGHT ON


Agree wholeheartedly with this statement, too.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 01:00:42 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "Britney"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


Part of me thinks this is all a conspriacy to make the Arubian Government look like they are doing all that they can, in order to avoid bad publicity.

I wonder if they are just going through the motions, and plan on letting all of them go in 8 days? Cased dropped due to lack of evidence..Yeah right!!


But isn't it reported that the reason he was held was because he provided an alibi that was simply proven to be wrong!  Hello?  If so any of SONNY BOY"S friends can feel free to hep out!  Doncha thank!


Again Mike, IF that's what it was (an alibi) then how do we know what it was? Maybe it was an alibi related to e-mails?? Hmmm....thinkaboutit.  :)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:01:13 AM
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


ummmm...let's see....they have no evidence of a crime?


Uuuuuuuummmmmmm?  They got alot o' crap including a missing girl, thas puttin ppl in jail and everbody is lying and sqirming and sure looks like they might think there has been a crime!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Belle on June 27, 2005, 01:01:28 AM
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.  
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?
 
 If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Curiosity on June 27, 2005, 01:01:53 AM
I don't recall any boy staying behind. But I have heard that one of the chaperones stayed behind. I don' t recall where I read that, as it was quite a while ago. I'm sure it's on this board somewhere.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: cast on June 27, 2005, 01:01:55 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


Are you a professional that has diagnosed Joran and family from afar. Damn you are good. What are your hourly rates?


I dont think that was necessary.

Nor was the previous post, but a penny for your thoughts anyway.


As far as I know, I have the same right to speculate as any of the rest of you, and I would invite you to LOOK at the profile of the sociopath and tell me if there is anything there -- ANYTHING -- that doesn't fit with the description of Joran van der Sloot you are getting through the media.

And that has a DIRECT BEARING upon what happened at closing time in Carlos and Charlies, because that explains the cunning with which Natalee was "carved out" and herded into a waiting car.
No one has stated that you you do not have the right to speculate. But since you do have the right to speculate, others have the right to challenge that speculations.

You post that Natalee was carved out and herded into a waiting car.  Well Frances Ellen Byrd has stated more or less in her interview on  (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8083810 'Scarborough Country' for June 2 )that she saw Natalee back at the hotel after they left C& C before the youth minister cut her off.

Tell us about your friend.  Tell us about—about what we can do to help out.  

FRANCES ELLEN BYRD, FRIEND OF NATALEE:  Well, I first met Natalee in eighth grade when we had a welcoming party for her.  She moved here from Mississippi.

And, ever since then, I have just been closest friends with her, as well as a few other of all of our good friends.  Everybody in the school loves Natalee.  Nobody can say anything bad about her.  She is a straight-A student, 25 in a class out of 300 students in a very—school where we studied very hard.  She is very—has very many honors.  She is in dance team, Bible study.  

Basically, she is a very responsible, well-loved child to everyone here.  

SCARBOROUGH:  And, Frances—you were actually with her, Frances, that night.  Tell me when you and the rest of your friends first figured out that something was just not right.  

BYRD:  I figured out something was wrong when my friends came to knock on my door in the morning asking where she was, because Natalee was the first one up.  She is the most responsible out of all of my friends.  And we all—Natalee is the leader of our friends.  

And when she wasn‘t there, we went straight—straight to the chaperons because something—we knew something was wrong.  

SCARBOROUGH:  And, Frances Ellen, you all are from Mountain Brook.  

That‘s a part of Birmingham, correct?  

BYRD:  Right.  

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  That‘s an area that I know well, because I went to the University of Alabama and have a lot of friends there.  

Pastor, let me bring you in.  I want to ask you about the prayer vigils that you are holding for this young lady.  Obviously, a lot of people in your community have been touched by her.  Tell us about it.  

BYRD:  Yes.  

MARK YODER, YOUTH PASTOR:  Absolutely.  

We—the interesting thing, Natalee and her family really don‘t go even to our church.  We were asked by some parents of students that went on the trip as well when they got back, hey, can we just have a spot where students and parents and anybody interested can gather and pray?  And, you know, that‘s a no-brainer, so, absolutely.  

So, every day for the last three days, that‘s exactly what we have done.  And it has been a—it‘s not at all surprising because of the community that we are in, but it has been an outpouring of support and love and...  

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:   What are you hearing about this—what are you hearing about this young girl that is missing tonight?  

YODER:  Absolutely everything positive.  You know, as everyone is talking about her and friendships and relationships and her future and what lies ahead, nothing but good things.  

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me ask you, Frances Ellen, when is the last time you saw her?  

BYRD:  That night.  

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, you saw her the night...

BYRD:  I was with her that night.  

SCARBOROUGH:  You were with her that night.  

BYRD:  Yes.  Yes.  

SCARBOROUGH:  All the friends went back to the hotel.  And did you all see her go back to the hotel or not?  

BYRD:  I am just leaving it that we saw her there.  

SCARBOROUGH:  Saw her that night.  

BYRD:  Right.

YODER:  Yes.  Absolutely.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  

Well, Frances Ellen, thank you so much for being with us tonight.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:02:11 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


ummmm...let's see....they have no evidence of a crime?


Uuuuuuuummmmmmm?  They got alot o' crap including a missing girl, thas puttin ppl in jail and everbody is lying and sqirming and sure looks like they might think there has been a crime!



That is undesputable.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:03:19 AM
Quote from: "Belle"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.  
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?
 
 If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..


PVDS did not go with the Twittys.

Many think Joran was never at the casino, but that is something that can be verified by eyewitnesses.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: golden on June 27, 2005, 01:03:29 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


Steve owns the Internet Cafe?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:03:58 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


But didn't he provide an attempt at an alibi for the amigos? Like Jug just said!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:05:45 AM
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.



At the very least not any college in the South.


I'm sure he would get a big welcome here! :twisted:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 01:06:18 AM
Quote from: "golden"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


Steve owns the Internet Cafe?


That was stated on FOX tonight...have yet to hear a retraction


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 27, 2005, 01:06:50 AM
Quote from: "golden"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


Steve owns the Internet Cafe?


No he does not


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 01:07:55 AM
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "cast"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
It pisses me off (pardon my french) to hear "Sonny Boy's" mom say he says he will "Kick her butt...."!


Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


Are you a professional that has diagnosed Joran and family from afar. Damn you are good. What are your hourly rates?


I dont think that was necessary.

Nor was the previous post, but a penny for your thoughts anyway.


As far as I know, I have the same right to speculate as any of the rest of you, and I would invite you to LOOK at the profile of the sociopath and tell me if there is anything there -- ANYTHING -- that doesn't fit with the description of Joran van der Sloot you are getting through the media.

And that has a DIRECT BEARING upon what happened at closing time in Carlos and Charlies, because that explains the cunning with which Natalee was "carved out" and herded into a waiting car.
 

PROFESSOR, who made up the "carved out" thing. As far as I know, nobody saw Natalee get in that car so that is speculation.  Persons with other psych profiles might also do the same thing and some horny guy otherwise "normal" might try the same stunt.  you don't have to be a sociopath.  Why is it so hard for you to accept that natalee may have willingly gone with those guys?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 01:07:56 AM
If Joran is innocent he`s welcome in Holland i`m sure!! Do you really think that if he`s relaeased that al the familiys involvedcan go on with there lives?? Not in our system they don`t In the US the can make bucks and have a movie or film or whatever not in our system! So fact is all the people involved  are ruined thanks to the media and speculations!! :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 01:08:00 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


Steve Croes owns the internet cafe? Where did that come from?
He works on the Tattoo.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: klaasend on June 27, 2005, 01:08:20 AM
Quote from: "katya"
Quote from: "golden"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


Steve owns the Internet Cafe?


No he does not

No...Fox mis-spoke today when they said Deepak was the owner.  He only works there (Deepak).  There was an article about Deepak and they interviewed his boss at the Internet Cafe.  Steve frequents the Internet Cafe and works on the Tattoo.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 27, 2005, 01:09:03 AM
The owner of the internet cafe is Angelina Reppas.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:09:44 AM
Quote from: "jane"
Quote from: "Professor"
Classical symptoms of a narcissistic family. Perfect breeding ground for sociopaths. But my favorite tell tale signs are.

1. Sending a son to yoga and meditation classes, for kicking the shit out of his little brother, and

2. Mommy, if you hadn't gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.

CLASSICAL SYMPTOMS>


It seems Anita is showing signs of denial and just trying to find some way of dealing with her son. I would like to know if Anita accepted Joran's invitation to accept the responsibilty for his actions. I don't think he would have used it if it hadn't worked before. I'll bet it has been difficult for her dealing with her manipulative, lying son. There has been convincing evidence that some people are born with this disorder and the rest of the family get 'sick' trying to cope with it.


Many (maybe most) mothers would go far to shield their sons.  I'm sure she may or may not believe him.  But, either way she'd say the same. In most cases.  In reality many moms think their kids are angels, when they just don't know the shinanigans their babies may get into.  My mom didn't know when I did things I shouldn't!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Chaumes on June 27, 2005, 01:10:02 AM
Quote from: "nikkibnurse"
ok, i know i shouldnt post this here,and I am sorry beforehand to anyone whom i anger for getting off topic..but

...so why do you keep doing it?  You preface many posts in this forum similarly and then follow with
Quote
OK..sorry...carry on....

Why not just skip the apologies and... carry on?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:11:35 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.



At the very least not any college in the South.


I'm sure he would get a big welcome here! :twisted:
'


How many college deans do you think would let a suspect in a missing girls murder whose body was never found around a campus full of young pretty girls.  he he

.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Twelve Monkeys on June 27, 2005, 01:11:50 AM
Steve Croes owns the internet cafe? Where did that come from?
He works on the Tattoo.



You mean like that guy on Fantasy Island? The greeter of the plane? Or do you mean he works in a Tattoo parlor?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "katya"
Quote from: "golden"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
I still find it wild that Steve Croes gets out when he obviously provided false testimony to help prime suspects cover up an apparent crime!
Sounds like a conspiracy to me!  Whats up with that?


I am thinking it may be more that with him being owner of the internet cafe, he wasn't as forthcoming as LE wanted him to be, Mike.


Steve owns the Internet Cafe?


No he does not

No...Fox mis-spoke today when they said Deepak was the owner.  He only works there (Deepak).  There was an article about Croes and they interviewed his boss at the Internet Cafe.  Steve frequents the Internet Cafe and works on the Tattoo.


sorry :oops:
I am looking at this darn fact board and thinking one name and typing another

Slap me someone...I am delirious!!!!!!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Britney on June 27, 2005, 01:14:34 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.



At the very least not any college in the South.


I'm sure he would get a big welcome here! :twisted:
'


How many college deans do you think would let a suspect in a missing girls murder whose body was never found around a campus full of young pretty girls.  he he

.


I was just thinking along the lines of that being considered discrimination towards Joran. I would think all Deans wouldn't allow him to attend, but then again there is the discrimination factor.


Title: did paul know?
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 01:14:41 AM
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?  No

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?  yes

If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home? This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..  

no  he was with them at the casino and tehn went back with them and joran to the HI and thenback to the house all the while interrupting Joran and reminding him he did not need to speak at all.  The cops were doing the questioning at first.  this was a very threatening situation seen from the persprecive of a lawyer,prosecutor and judge.  he was right but he could not control the sitation and it spiraled ot of hand into a majot pissing contest,  Paul was right but he did not offer an alternative.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:14:41 AM
Quote from: "Belle"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.  
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?
 
 If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..


You very posibly jes answered your own question!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:16:28 AM
Britney:

Any college in the USA who lets Joran in as a student is going to have every single parent pull their daughter out of that school.  No college here will risk mass exit of students for a guy suspected of murder.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "Belle"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.  
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?
 
 If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..


You very posibly jes answered your own question!


:::DING DING DING:::: Go Belle!!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Britney on June 27, 2005, 01:17:32 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Britney:

Any college in the USA who lets Joran in as a student is going to have every single parent pull their daughter out of that school.  No college here will risk mass exit of students for a guy suspected of murder.


Let's all hope so!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Professor on June 27, 2005, 01:18:52 AM
Iquitos asked: PROFESSOR, who made up the "carved out" thing. As far as I know, nobody saw Natalee get in that car so that is speculation. Persons with other psych profiles might also do the same thing and some horny guy otherwise "normal" might try the same stunt. you don't have to be a sociopath. Why is it so hard for you to accept that natalee may have willingly gone with those guys?

On the Dark Side had a description of a practice called "carving out." You slip a girl a roofie, right at closing time, and then when the crowd is leaving, you surround her with men, separate her from her group, and "herd" her into a waiting car. At that point, you can tell her it's a taxi, or you can tell her it's a flying saucer taking her to Mars, because she's under the influence of the drug. She's already in a dream-like state. And, to her friends, she only looks "tipsy."

What I found so disturbing about that description is that there was actually a NAME for it. Carving out. It gave me chills.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 01:19:10 AM
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.

At the very least not any college in the South.


I'm sure the Netherlands won't have any problem allowing him to attend their universities. He'll be free to prey on unsuspecting girls again, but I think it's more acceptable there.

But now Daddy may be looking for a new line of work. Of course, if the Hak. website is to be believed, the justice department in Holland wasn't thrilled with his work and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He may have to go back to teaching. Nothing like working for years to have a career go down the drain.

But if they move back to Holland I feel sorry for Valentijn and his little American girlfriend Natalie. That'll be the end of their cute little love story. It's really kinda sad.

There's something kinda weird. Reports out of Holland say Papa v.d.Sloot    has been in Aruba 17 years, but the mother and kids have been there 10 years (what both Val. & Joran's websites said). For 7 years Paul was living alone on the island? Does Lorenzo factor in anywhere here?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: SoccerDad on June 27, 2005, 01:19:43 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
If Joran is innocent he`s welcome in Holland i`m sure!! Do you really think that if he`s relaeased that al the familiys involvedcan go on with there lives?? Not in our system they don`t In the US the can make bucks and have a movie or film or whatever not in our system! So fact is all the people involved  are ruined thanks to the media and speculations!! :wink:


I feel very sad for the innocent people in those families whose lives are in torment right now, especially those poor mothers. Their hearts are breaking.

As far as your opinion that "....all the people involved  are ruined thanks to the media and speculations"...I vehemently disagree. Some of the people involved most likely have only themselves to blame for their "ruined" futures. Not the American meida and speculations. Sorry.


Title: Kerin
Post by: dl3fan on June 27, 2005, 01:20:14 AM
My PM's are getting hung in my outbox for some reason, GRRR!!


Title: Re: did paul know?
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 01:21:12 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?  No

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?  yes

If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home? This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..  Yes

no  he was with them at the casino and tehn went back with them and joran to the HI and thenback to the house all the while interrupting Joran and reminding him he did not need to speak at all.  The cops were doing the questioning at first.  this was a very threatening situation seen from the persprecive of a lawyer,prosecutor and judge.  he was right but he could not control the sitation and it spiraled ot of hand into a majot pissing contest,  Paul was right but he did not offer an alternative.


theyall went back to the house and then back to the Hi after PVDS got a call for Joran telling him he was at home//  another one too,,,it was PVDS told Deepak that he did not have to talk,,,NOT Deepak telling Joran he did not have to talk,,,for what this is worth


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 01:22:27 AM
Quote from: "Britney"
I was just thinking along the lines of that being considered discrimination towards Joran. I would think all Deans wouldn't allow him to attend, but then again there is the discrimination factor.


You mean like a minority gambler or something?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:22:45 AM
Quote from: "SoccerDad"
Quote from: "HannieC"
If Joran is innocent he`s welcome in Holland i`m sure!! Do you really think that if he`s relaeased that al the familiys involvedcan go on with there lives?? Not in our system they don`t In the US the can make bucks and have a movie or film or whatever not in our system! So fact is all the people involved  are ruined thanks to the media and speculations!! :wink:


I feel very sad for the innocent people in those families whose lives are in torment right now, especially those poor mothers. Their hearts are breaking.

As far as your opinion that "....all the people involved  are ruined thanks to the media and speculations"...I vehemently disagree. Some of the people involved most likely have only themselves to blame for their "ruined" futures. Not the American meida and speculations. Sorry.


Great comment, had they not lied in the first place if they are innocent there would be no reason to arrest them in the first place.


Title: Furman
Post by: Twelve Monkeys on June 27, 2005, 01:23:03 AM
Like Mark Furman said tonight. The simple fact that the boys made up the story about dropping her off at the Holiday Inn.

Why did they have to make that story up?

Why is it so hard to get the truth (from him or them) once this lie has been exposed?

This island is very scary to me if they can't figure this thing out.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: katya on June 27, 2005, 01:23:54 AM
Quote
I'm sure the Netherlands won't have any problem allowing him to attend their universities. He'll be free to prey on unsuspecting girls again, but I think it's more acceptable there.

Quote


That is a ridiculous and insulting statement


Title: Re: Furman
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:24:11 AM
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Like Mark Furman said tonight. The simple fact that the boys made up the story about dropping her off at the Holiday Inn.

Why did they have to make that story up?

Why is it so hard to get the truth (from him or them) once this lie has been exposed?

This island is very scary to me if they can't figure this thing out.


They have figured it out, they just need Equisearch to find the body.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Britney on June 27, 2005, 01:25:41 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "BritneyI was just thinking along the lines of that being considered discrimination towards Joran. I would think all Deans wouldn't allow him to attend, but then again there is the discrimination factor.[/quote


You mean like a minority gambler or something?


Umm no...I mean like an Arubian trying to attend a US college, that has no criminal record. Only a suspect. Big differenc between the two,.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:25:52 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
If Joran is innocent he`s welcome in Holland i`m sure!! Do you really think that if he`s relaeased that al the familiys involvedcan go on with there lives?? Not in our system they don`t In the US the can make bucks and have a movie or film or whatever not in our system! So fact is all the people involved  are ruined thanks to the media and speculations!! :wink:


Not arguing with you but after all it is the media that keeps the gvmnt honest in many cases!  Here we call it "freedom of the press"!  Do you have that in Holland?


Title: Re: did paul know?
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 01:25:58 AM
Quote from: "kkial"
Quote from: "iquitos"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?  No

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?  yes

If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home? This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..  Yes

no  he was with them at the casino and tehn went back with them and joran to the HI and thenback to the house all the while interrupting Joran and reminding him he did not need to speak at all.  The cops were doing the questioning at first.  this was a very threatening situation seen from the persprecive of a lawyer,prosecutor and judge.  he was right but he could not control the sitation and it spiraled ot of hand into a majot pissing contest,  Paul was right but he did not offer an alternative.


theyall went back to the house and then back to the Hi after PVDS got a call for Joran telling him he was at home//  another one too,,,it was PVDS told Deepak that he did not have to talk,,,NOT Deepak telling Joran he did not have to talk,,,for what this is worth
 

somebody in the family,  "jug",  i think, described both paul and deepak telling joran he did not have to say anything while he blabbed on.  to me that was sociopathic behaviour thinking he can talk (lie) his way out.  so why did he not use his charm on Beth too?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Belle on June 27, 2005, 01:26:05 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "Belle"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.  
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?
 
 If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..


You very posibly jes answered your own question!



I wanted to know if the people  here on this forum had agreed on any of this.
Also I thought the Twittys questioned the father/son first then the officers took over when it got rough.


Title: Not waking Joran
Post by: Itawamba on June 27, 2005, 01:26:07 AM
While ruminating on the mystery of why Paulus can't recall waking Joran for school on Monday morning, I flashed on a fragment of something from another crime.

The unsolved case of missing Kristen Smart in San Luis Obispo, CA, has been long thought to have been perpetrated by a fellow college student she met at a party the last night she was seen alive.

It took a while to ID this fellow, Paul Flores, I think his name is (might be wrong on that), but when they did, they took dogs to his dorm room and a cadaver dog alerted on the underside of the mattress of his bed.  Many years later, they still don't have evidence enough to go after him.  

Wasn't there also a guy who killed a little boy selling candy door-to-door and hid the boy's body in his mattress and not even his mother knew?

So, I'm thinking it's possible the three are still lying as far as the Marriott Beach drop-off.  Or, alternatively, possibly they were on the beach there and Joran wanted to take Nat to his "apartment" - alive and/or drugged.  Couldn't he have called a taxi to take them there--and he smuggled her in without Daddy knowing?  Maybe one of the 3AM ATM withdrawals related to this.

Then "something bad happened" there--or who knows, maybe even Joran tied her up and gagged her or something.  Not knowing Daddy's habits as far as actually coming out to the garage and coming into Joran's space, I wonder if that was even a possibility.

Say it was, and he managed to keep Natalee there, alive, drugged or dead, and went about his business, going to school "as normal" (of course, if one is guilty of *something bad*, it's more imperative than ever to "act normal," which includes going to school) and leaving her there during some daytime hours.

(We don't really know whether Joran's a bit of a kinky dude or not.)  Mom wouldn't be home until Wednesday, Daddy would be at work--Joran may then have hurried home and done whatever he needed to do to entertain his captive-- or worse.

From that point forward, the rest of Monday afternoon and evening, he would've been free to take care of any loose ends that needed taking care of, relatively unseen--except perhaps for another partner in crime that has not yet been revealed.  (You know, like monkey-loving neighbors who took a hike about that time.)

This could even play into the "kidnapping" theory, if there is a crime syndicate type person known to Joran who would "take care" of the rest of the enterprise, promising him some money (or he and Daddy some money) as their share of any ransom that might be paid.

I still think it's possible that Joran, if he were of a mind to, could've ascertained Natalee's family info (i.e, last name Twitty of step father) earlier in the day or week, depending on the story we believe.  Even if it was as late as 9:30PM that Sunday night, my thinking is that Deepak is the computer whiz and Internet pro--perhaps he knows a little something about hacking and ID theft, things like that, without ever needing to *use* those skills.  

By midnight at Carlos & Charlie's, they and their higher-up criminal-type (casino dweller, whatever) will have run a Dun & Bradstreet on Nat's family and would have *a plan*.

Just rambling, but mostly thinking of the possibility that Natalee was in Joran's room for a time -- and for a time period longer than we might've contemplated.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 01:26:56 AM
writenow wrote:

Quote
I'm sure the Netherlands won't have any problem allowing him to attend their universities. He'll be free to prey on unsuspecting girls again, but I think it's more acceptable there.

But now Daddy may be looking for a new line of work. Of course, if the Hak. website is to be believed, the justice department in Holland wasn't thrilled with his work and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He may have to go back to teaching. Nothing like working for years to have a career go down the drain.

But if they move back to Holland I feel sorry for Valentijn and his little American girlfriend Natalie. That'll be the end of their cute little love story. It's really kinda sad.

There's something kinda weird. Reports out of Holland say Papa v.d.Sloot has been in Aruba 17 years, but the mother and kids have been there 10 years (what both Val. & Joran's websites said). For 7 years Paul was living alone on the island? Does Lorenzo factor in anywhere here?



And you know why writenow? Because we don`t judge people by there outfit or what we think we know what they must be!! We are by a long shot not so judgemental...We believe in evidence hard evidence and we don`t try to ruin peoples lives with speculations... I`m sorry but maybe that`s why so much american people come to visit us and like our attitide and that of the antillens and aruba... thought about that? :wink:  :lol:


Title: Re: Furman
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 01:28:27 AM
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Like Mark Furman said tonight. The simple fact that the boys made up the story about dropping her off at the Holiday Inn.

Why did they have to make that story up?

Why is it so hard to get the truth (from him or them) once this lie has been exposed?

This island is very scary to me if they can't figure this thing out.


figuring out and convicting are two different things as mark furhman well knows from his own botched investigation of the OJ Simpson case


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Belle on June 27, 2005, 01:28:42 AM
Ok.  I get it I just saw/heard the Ding! Ding!


Title: Re: did paul know?
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:29:09 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "kkial"
Quote from: "iquitos"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?  No

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?  yes

If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home? This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..  Yes

no  he was with them at the casino and tehn went back with them and joran to the HI and thenback to the house all the while interrupting Joran and reminding him he did not need to speak at all.  The cops were doing the questioning at first.  this was a very threatening situation seen from the persprecive of a lawyer,prosecutor and judge.  he was right but he could not control the sitation and it spiraled ot of hand into a majot pissing contest,  Paul was right but he did not offer an alternative.


theyall went back to the house and then back to the Hi after PVDS got a call for Joran telling him he was at home//  another one too,,,it was PVDS told Deepak that he did not have to talk,,,NOT Deepak telling Joran he did not have to talk,,,for what this is worth
 

somebody in the family,  "jug",  i think, described both paul and deepak telling joran he did not have to say anything while he blabbed on.  to me that was sociopathic behaviour thinking he can talk (lie) his way out.  so why did he not use his charm on Beth too?



Jorans mom said that he kept wanting to tell Beths parents something but his dad kept saying "you say nothing you say nothing!"

I think Joran thinks he can lie his way out of this.


Title: Re: Furman
Post by: Chaumes on June 27, 2005, 01:29:16 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Like Mark Furman said tonight. The simple fact that the boys made up the story about dropping her off at the Holiday Inn.

Why did they have to make that story up?

Why is it so hard to get the truth (from him or them) once this lie has been exposed?

This island is very scary to me if they can't figure this thing out.


They have figured it out, they just need Equisearch to find the body.


You're both right.


Title: Re: did paul know?
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 01:29:58 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "kkial"
Quote from: "iquitos"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?  No

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?  yes

If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home? This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..  Yes

no  he was with them at the casino and tehn went back with them and joran to the HI and thenback to the house all the while interrupting Joran and reminding him he did not need to speak at all.  The cops were doing the questioning at first.  this was a very threatening situation seen from the persprecive of a lawyer,prosecutor and judge.  he was right but he could not control the sitation and it spiraled ot of hand into a majot pissing contest,  Paul was right but he did not offer an alternative.


theyall went back to the house and then back to the Hi after PVDS got a call for Joran telling him he was at home//  another one too,,,it was PVDS told Deepak that he did not have to talk,,,NOT Deepak telling Joran he did not have to talk,,,for what this is worth
 

somebody in the family,  "jug",  i think, described both paul and deepak telling joran he did not have to say anything while he blabbed on.  to me that was sociopathic behaviour thinking he can talk (lie) his way out.  so why did he not use his charm on Beth too?


I think you missed the southern language,,,,He did say that Papa told Deepak,,,I think it was the way he said it that gave the impression the Deepak said it....I did have the conversation, but lost it..


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 01:30:29 AM
Yes TTown we have absolutly freedom of the press in Holland, but on another level then the US, that`s maybe I can`t find enough news about this and had to search thru the internet b/c i was really interested in natalee and whith my search I came first by Dan and then here... :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:30:30 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Britney"
If Joran is let go due to lack of evidence against him, I wonder what that will do for his college career in the US? Seems he was offered plenty scholorships to the college of his choice..


He can forget about ever going to college in the USA.

At the very least not any college in the South.


I'm sure the Netherlands won't have any problem allowing him to attend their universities. He'll be free to prey on unsuspecting girls again, but I think it's more acceptable there.

But now Daddy may be looking for a new line of work. Of course, if the Hak. website is to be believed, the justice department in Holland wasn't thrilled with his work and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He may have to go back to teaching. Nothing like working for years to have a career go down the drain.

But if they move back to Holland I feel sorry for Valentijn and his little American girlfriend Natalie. That'll be the end of their cute little love story. It's really kinda sad.

There's something kinda weird. Reports out of Holland say Papa v.d.Sloot    has been in Aruba 17 years, but the mother and kids have been there 10 years (what both Val. & Joran's websites said). For 7 years Paul was living alone on the island? Does Lorenzo factor in anywhere here?

Well, papa flunked the test already anyway so he shudda had a back up plan, doncha thank?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:32:50 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: Britney
I was just thinking along the lines of that being considered discrimination towards Joran. I would think all Deans wouldn't allow him to attend, but then again there is the discrimination factor.


You mean like a minority gambler or something?

I don't know that th deans would keep him out but the student body is a whole nuther questeurn!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 01:33:33 AM
Hannie,,,did you see the article in Dutch paper today?   I think somebody posted it earlier today,,, de telegraf ....or something like thal


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 01:34:23 AM
Quote from: "Britney"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Britney"
I was just thinking along the lines of that being considered discrimination towards Joran. I would think all Deans wouldn't allow him to attend, but then again there is the discrimination factor.

You mean like a minority gambler or something?

Umm no...I mean like an Arubian trying to attend a US college, that has no criminal record. Only a suspect. Big differenc between the two,.


He's not an American. He can't sue for discrimination. Colleges don't have to take foreign students. As a matter of fact, border patrol can make it very uncomfortable for him to ever enter this country. They could require mandatory strip searches every time he enters, hold him up for hours interrogating him, then refuse him entry. He's a threat to homeland security. they'd flag his name and he'd get stopped every time.


Title: Re: Furman
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:35:12 AM
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Like Mark Furman said tonight. The simple fact that the boys made up the story about dropping her off at the Holiday Inn.

Why did they have to make that story up?

Why is it so hard to get the truth (from him or them) once this lie has been exposed?

This island is very scary to me if they can't figure this thing out.


If nothing incriminating to hide, they should be spillin it by now!  Them amigo(s) is hidin sumpin they did thats real bad! Sotaspeak!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 01:36:15 AM
Quote from: "TTownMike"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Britney"
I was just thinking along the lines of that being considered discrimination towards Joran. I would think all Deans wouldn't allow him to attend, but then again there is the discrimination factor.


You mean like a minority gambler or something?

I don't know that th deans would keep him out but the student body is a whole nuther questeurn!


I'm sure Mr. Macho would love a crack at those student bodies.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:37:02 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Britney"
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Britney"
I was just thinking along the lines of that being considered discrimination towards Joran. I would think all Deans wouldn't allow him to attend, but then again there is the discrimination factor.

You mean like a minority gambler or something?

Umm no...I mean like an Arubian trying to attend a US college, that has no criminal record. Only a suspect. Big differenc between the two,.


He's not an American. He can't sue for discrimination. Colleges don't have to take foreign students. As a matter of fact, border patrol can make it very uncomfortable for him to ever enter this country. They could require mandatory strip searches every time he enters, hold him up for hours interrogating him, then refuse him entry. He's a threat to homeland security. they'd flag his name and he'd get stopped every time.


Hed have better luck attending the University of Iraq


Title: Re: did paul know?
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:37:17 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "kkial"
Quote from: "iquitos"
I have been reading alot but I don't know your opinion about a couple of questions.
Has there been a concensus of opinion that you think PVDS already knew that Natalee was missing when Beth and Jug went to his home that first morning?  No

Did PVDS go with the Twittys to the casino or did he stay at home?  yes

If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home? This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..  Yes

no  he was with them at the casino and tehn went back with them and joran to the HI and thenback to the house all the while interrupting Joran and reminding him he did not need to speak at all.  The cops were doing the questioning at first.  this was a very threatening situation seen from the persprecive of a lawyer,prosecutor and judge.  he was right but he could not control the sitation and it spiraled ot of hand into a majot pissing contest,  Paul was right but he did not offer an alternative.


theyall went back to the house and then back to the Hi after PVDS got a call for Joran telling him he was at home//  another one too,,,it was PVDS told Deepak that he did not have to talk,,,NOT Deepak telling Joran he did not have to talk,,,for what this is worth
 

somebody in the family,  "jug",  i think, described both paul and deepak telling joran he did not have to say anything while he blabbed on.  to me that was sociopathic behaviour thinking he can talk (lie) his way out.  so why did he not use his charm on Beth too?


LOL!  He said "sociopathic"!  LOL!


Title: nite monkeys
Post by: iquitos on June 27, 2005, 01:37:50 AM
nite monkeys.  it has been tense.  guess i won't make my thousand today but getting close.  then i can retire.  i will never get sucked into this whirlpool again  it is worse than a full time job.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 01:39:06 AM
Obviously they don't care about the "Ugly Americans" except for our money,,,again want to attend out schools,,,,,,,,,If they do not solve this case,  I will never go there again,,,,will absolutely become a isolationist.
Make it at home and Keep it at home and I think a lot of peole feel the same way...just won't admit it.  We are getting a raw deal,,,

Nobody wants to convict a innocent person,,,NEVER,,,,,but we do want JUSTICE for Natalee!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: igsigs on June 27, 2005, 01:39:15 AM
If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..[/quote]

You very posibly jes answered your own question![/quote]

:::DING DING DING:::: Go Belle!!![/quote]

 What a missed opportunity that night was! If the LE on the scene would have been more agressive they could have questioned and taken a full statement from Joren that night. right in front of their eyes they have 2 of the 3 people who were last seen with a missing girl. and the story that they tell is raising such suspicion with the girl's family that they almost come to blows and have to be seperated.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 01:43:09 AM
Mark Fuhrman?? You got to be kidding me??


Wasn`t he spit out 11 years ago b/c he lied on the stand?? Oeps....

Is he now the most credible source there? jeezz that`s what I mean that you can make bucks in the US, not in Holland tho we are to small for that
lmao sorry.. Not to generalize people please  JMHO :wink:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: SoccerDad on June 27, 2005, 01:43:21 AM
Quote
We believe in evidence hard evidence and we don`t try to ruin peoples lives with speculations...


The Dutch culture is wonderful--the people we've met are awesome! But you have to admit, Hannie, that many, many legal experts in the Netherlands are "speculating" about Joran. Not saying he's guilty or innocent, but we know he's a liar at least.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: clevfan1234 on June 27, 2005, 01:44:02 AM
Quote from: "katya"
The owner of the internet cafe is Angelina Reppas.


we don't know she own it, we know she is his boss


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:46:07 AM
Any locals online that can tell me about the area between Boca Prine and Indian Cove?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 01:46:46 AM
Just rambling, but mostly thinking of the possibility that Natalee was in Joran's room for a time -- and for a time period longer than we might've contemplated.

I had those thoughts too...with all the lack of supervision that apparently went on IMO...but the thought is too much to bear so I put her back on the beach


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Belle on June 27, 2005, 01:46:59 AM
Seems like they know the Dutch law "no body -- no crime".  Just keep quite and hope no body is found.  Or if they know Natalee is off the island they just hope no one talks.

I just can't believe the boys and VDSloots aren't bending over backward to tell all they know if they know that they didn't harm Natalee.  The boys will serve jail time for lying but at least they are alive.

Has anyone searched all the hotel rooms?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 01:47:06 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
writenow wrote:

Quote
I'm sure the Netherlands won't have any problem allowing him to attend their universities. He'll be free to prey on unsuspecting girls again, but I think it's more acceptable there.

But now Daddy may be looking for a new line of work. Of course, if the Hak. website is to be believed, the justice department in Holland wasn't thrilled with his work and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He may have to go back to teaching. Nothing like working for years to have a career go down the drain.

But if they move back to Holland I feel sorry for Valentijn and his little American girlfriend Natalie. That'll be the end of their cute little love story. It's really kinda sad.

There's something kinda weird. Reports out of Holland say Papa v.d.Sloot has been in Aruba 17 years, but the mother and kids have been there 10 years (what both Val. & Joran's websites said). For 7 years Paul was living alone on the island? Does Lorenzo factor in anywhere here?



And you know why writenow? Because we don`t judge people by there outfit or what we think we know what they must be!! We are by a long shot not so judgemental...We believe in evidence hard evidence and we don`t try to ruin peoples lives with speculations... I`m sorry but maybe that`s why so much american people come to visit us and like our attitide and that of the antillens and aruba... thought about that? :wink:  :lol:


Actually, what I've found on this board lately is that the Dutch, either ex-pat or native, are fiercely defending their own -- Joran, his dad & the Dutch authorities in Aruba -- because it somehow reflects on their national identity and pride. And those same people have been attacking a grieving family, a missing girl and her friends, desperately trying to find ways that a Dutch national would not be responsible for kidnapping an American. So I think you are VERY judgmental, you just aren't when it comes to your own kind.


Title: Re: nite monkeys
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:47:29 AM
Quote from: "iquitos"
nite monkeys.  it has been tense.  guess i won't make my thousand today but getting close.  then i can retire.  i will never get sucked into this whirlpool again  it is worse than a full time job.

Night, inquitos!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 01:48:11 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Just rambling, but mostly thinking of the possibility that Natalee was in Joran's room for a time -- and for a time period longer than we might've contemplated.

I had those thoughts too...with all the lack of supervision that apparently went on IMO...but the thought is too much to bear so I put her back on the beach


Kerin I think Beth felt that she had been there,,,can't remember exactly what she said :(


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: dl3fan on June 27, 2005, 01:49:15 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Just rambling, but mostly thinking of the possibility that Natalee was in Joran's room for a time -- and for a time period longer than we might've contemplated.

I had those thoughts too...with all the lack of supervision that apparently went on IMO...but the thought is too much to bear so I put her back on the beach


I've often thought this also but I imagine if she was there for longer she would have been disposed of, or sent away, before he got home from school that day.  Would be kinda creepy to have a POTENTIALLY dead body in your room for that long.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:50:56 AM
Quote from: "igsigs"
If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..


You very posibly jes answered your own question![/quote]

:::DING DING DING:::: Go Belle!!![/quote]

 What a missed opportunity that night was! If the LE on the scene would have been more agressive they could have questioned and taken a full statement from Joren that night. right in front of their eyes they have 2 of the 3 people who were last seen with a missing girl. and the story that they tell is raising such suspicion with the girl's family that they almost come to blows and have to be seperated.[/quote]
But at the time there was the tendancy to want to believe "the son of a prominant gov'ment official" (ie judge wannabe)!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: may on June 27, 2005, 01:53:01 AM
Quote from: "Belle"
Seems like they know the Dutch law "no body -- no crime".  Just keep quite and hope no body is found.  Or if they know Natalee is off the island they just hope no one talks.

I just can't believe the boys and VDSloots aren't bending over backward to tell all they know if they know that they didn't harm Natalee.  The boys will serve jail time for lying but at least they are alive.

Has anyone searched all the hotel rooms?




I am wondering if anyone has searched the house next door? Are the neighbors still away?


May


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Twelve Monkeys on June 27, 2005, 01:53:26 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
Mark Fuhrman?? You got to be kidding me??


Wasn`t he spit out 11 years ago b/c he lied on the stand?? Oeps....



So what. Maybe he knows a liar when he hears one. :evil:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:53:39 AM
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Just rambling, but mostly thinking of the possibility that Natalee was in Joran's room for a time -- and for a time period longer than we might've contemplated.

I had those thoughts too...with all the lack of supervision that apparently went on IMO...but the thought is too much to bear so I put her back on the beach


If thet were true, they woulda (shoulda) gotten trace evidence from there when they searhed the place 4 months later! (or sumpin lack dat!)


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 01:53:47 AM
You are right soccerdad...As far as we Know he lied!!

Ok but does that make him a murderer? I don`t think so. I think what people forget is......it`s a kid he`s 17 years old. If we think that all lyers are murderers than we have I think minimal 1/3 of the universe to accuse! I don`t understand why nobody or at least the people in general here, not everybody thank god, can believe that somebody can lie if you are in the same situation as he is in the beginning then...When you start a lie ususally it`s getting worse we al now that...
But hey if he`s guilty then he have to pay for it absolutly your damn right about it!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 01:54:01 AM
Quote from: "kkial"
I think Beth felt that she had been there,,,can't remember exactly what she said :( [/b]


She said she felt Natalee's presence there, I believe.


Title: Re: Not waking Joran
Post by: natfortplum on June 27, 2005, 01:54:15 AM
Quote from: "Itawamba"
While ruminating on the mystery of why Paulus can't recall waking Joran for school on Monday morning, I flashed on a fragment of something from another crime.

The unsolved case of missing Kristen Smart in San Luis Obispo, CA, has been long thought to have been perpetrated by a fellow college student she met at a party the last night she was seen alive.

It took a while to ID this fellow, Paul Flores, I think his name is (might be wrong on that), but when they did, they took dogs to his dorm room and a cadaver dog alerted on the underside of the mattress of his bed.  Many years later, they still don't have evidence enough to go after him.  

Wasn't there also a guy who killed a little boy selling candy door-to-door and hid the boy's body in his mattress and not even his mother knew?

So, I'm thinking it's possible the three are still lying as far as the Marriott Beach drop-off.  Or, alternatively, possibly they were on the beach there and Joran wanted to take Nat to his "apartment" - alive and/or drugged.  Couldn't he have called a taxi to take them there--and he smuggled her in without Daddy knowing?  Maybe one of the 3AM ATM withdrawals related to this.

Then "something bad happened" there--or who knows, maybe even Joran tied her up and gagged her or something.  Not knowing Daddy's habits as far as actually coming out to the garage and coming into Joran's space, I wonder if that was even a possibility.

Say it was, and he managed to keep Natalee there, alive, drugged or dead, and went about his business, going to school "as normal" (of course, if one is guilty of *something bad*, it's more imperative than ever to "act normal," which includes going to school) and leaving her there during some daytime hours.

(We don't really know whether Joran's a bit of a kinky dude or not.)  Mom wouldn't be home until Wednesday, Daddy would be at work--Joran may then have hurried home and done whatever he needed to do to entertain his captive-- or worse.

From that point forward, the rest of Monday afternoon and evening, he would've been free to take care of any loose ends that needed taking care of, relatively unseen--except perhaps for another partner in crime that has not yet been revealed.  (You know, like monkey-loving neighbors who took a hike about that time.)

This could even play into the "kidnapping" theory, if there is a crime syndicate type person known to Joran who would "take care" of the rest of the enterprise, promising him some money (or he and Daddy some money) as their share of any ransom that might be paid.

I still think it's possible that Joran, if he were of a mind to, could've ascertained Natalee's family info (i.e, last name Twitty of step father) earlier in the day or week, depending on the story we believe.  Even if it was as late as 9:30PM that Sunday night, my thinking is that Deepak is the computer whiz and Internet pro--perhaps he knows a little something about hacking and ID theft, things like that, without ever needing to *use* those skills.  

By midnight at Carlos & Charlie's, they and their higher-up criminal-type (casino dweller, whatever) will have run a Dun & Bradstreet on Nat's family and would have *a plan*.

Just rambling, but mostly thinking of the possibility that Natalee was in Joran's room for a time -- and for a time period longer than we might've contemplated.


Was there a ATM withdrawal frim Joran that night? havent heard of this.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 01:54:17 AM
Quote from: "igsigs"
If you think PVDS didn't know Natalee was missing do you think he just told the Twittys that Joran was at the casino to stall the Twittys so he would have time to talk to Joran since he knew Joran was actually at home?  This would have given him time to ask Joran what all of this was about..


You very posibly jes answered your own question![/quote]

:::DING DING DING:::: Go Belle!!![/quote]

 What a missed opportunity that night was! If the LE on the scene would have been more agressive they could have questioned and taken a full statement from Joren that night. right in front of their eyes they have 2 of the 3 people who were last seen with a missing girl. and the story that they tell is raising such suspicion with the girl's family that they almost come to blows and have to be seperated.[/quote]

exactly. In LE it is referred to as the "Golden Hour". Normally that would be the first hour of an interrogation and in that hour LE normally gets aconfession. BUT when things were handled like this (not placing blame on either party) then what happened was The Twittys gave their hand up to the VDS's and essentially the Goden Hour was lost because I can assure you that the second LE left the VDS driveway, Dad was working on Joran and the "story".


Title: Timeline for burial at beach
Post by: Itawamba on June 27, 2005, 01:54:23 AM
I just can't imagine where he could've put Natalee's body if she died at Marriott Beach, without any trace of her being found yet.  There had to be a boat involved, if she were put into the ocean, and we have no evidence of that possibility.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:55:07 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "HannieC"
writenow wrote:

Quote
I'm sure the Netherlands won't have any problem allowing him to attend their universities. He'll be free to prey on unsuspecting girls again, but I think it's more acceptable there.

But now Daddy may be looking for a new line of work. Of course, if the Hak. website is to be believed, the justice department in Holland wasn't thrilled with his work and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He may have to go back to teaching. Nothing like working for years to have a career go down the drain.

But if they move back to Holland I feel sorry for Valentijn and his little American girlfriend Natalie. That'll be the end of their cute little love story. It's really kinda sad.

There's something kinda weird. Reports out of Holland say Papa v.d.Sloot has been in Aruba 17 years, but the mother and kids have been there 10 years (what both Val. & Joran's websites said). For 7 years Paul was living alone on the island? Does Lorenzo factor in anywhere here?



And you know why writenow? Because we don`t judge people by there outfit or what we think we know what they must be!! We are by a long shot not so judgemental...We believe in evidence hard evidence and we don`t try to ruin peoples lives with speculations... I`m sorry but maybe that`s why so much american people come to visit us and like our attitide and that of the antillens and aruba... thought about that? :wink:  :lol:


Actually, what I've found on this board lately is that the Dutch, either ex-pat or native, are fiercely defending their own -- Joran, his dad & the Dutch authorities in Aruba -- because it somehow reflects on their national identity and pride. And those same people have been attacking a grieving family, a missing girl and her friends, desperately trying to find ways that a Dutch national would not be responsible for kidnapping an American. So I think you are VERY judgmental, you just aren't when it comes to your own kind.


Actually its not just the Dutch attacking people, earlier today they ran off one of Natalies friends because they kept telling her she was wrong for thinking joran was responsible.  Alot of the attackers were americans.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:55:34 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "HannieC"
writenow wrote:

Quote
I'm sure the Netherlands won't have any problem allowing him to attend their universities. He'll be free to prey on unsuspecting girls again, but I think it's more acceptable there.

But now Daddy may be looking for a new line of work. Of course, if the Hak. website is to be believed, the justice department in Holland wasn't thrilled with his work and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He may have to go back to teaching. Nothing like working for years to have a career go down the drain.

But if they move back to Holland I feel sorry for Valentijn and his little American girlfriend Natalie. That'll be the end of their cute little love story. It's really kinda sad.

There's something kinda weird. Reports out of Holland say Papa v.d.Sloot has been in Aruba 17 years, but the mother and kids have been there 10 years (what both Val. & Joran's websites said). For 7 years Paul was living alone on the island? Does Lorenzo factor in anywhere here?



And you know why writenow? Because we don`t judge people by there outfit or what we think we know what they must be!! We are by a long shot not so judgemental...We believe in evidence hard evidence and we don`t try to ruin peoples lives with speculations... I`m sorry but maybe that`s why so much american people come to visit us and like our attitide and that of the antillens and aruba... thought about that? :wink:  :lol:


Actually, what I've found on this board lately is that the Dutch, either ex-pat or native, are fiercely defending their own -- Joran, his dad & the Dutch authorities in Aruba -- because it somehow reflects on their national identity and pride. And those same people have been attacking a grieving family, a missing girl and her friends, desperately trying to find ways that a Dutch national would not be responsible for kidnapping an American. So I think you are VERY judgmental, you just aren't when it comes to your own kind.

TOUCHE'!  
(Sotaspeak!)


Title: Re: Not waking Joran
Post by: LouLou on June 27, 2005, 01:57:10 AM
Quote from: "Itawamba"

So, I'm thinking it's possible the three are still lying as far as the Marriott Beach drop-off.  Or, alternatively, possibly they were on the beach there and Joran wanted to take Nat to his "apartment" - alive and/or drugged.  Couldn't he have called a taxi to take them there--and he smuggled her in without Daddy knowing?  Maybe one of the 3AM ATM withdrawals related to this.
[snipped]
Say it was, and he managed to keep Natalee there, alive, drugged or dead, and went about his business, going to school "as normal" (of course, if one is guilty of *something bad*, it's more imperative than ever to "act normal," which includes going to school) and leaving her there during some daytime hours.
[snipped]
From that point forward, the rest of Monday afternoon and evening, he would've been free to take care of any loose ends that needed taking care of, relatively unseen--except perhaps for another partner in crime that has not yet been revealed.  (You know, like monkey-loving neighbors who took a hike about that time.)
[snipped]

Just rambling, but mostly thinking of the possibility that Natalee was in Joran's room for a time -- and for a time period longer than we might've contemplated.
[/size]

I think it is entirely logical that she was dropped off at the VDS house (not the beach).  Why would he want to wallow in the sticks and bugs and sand with his new sweetheart if he had his own place?

It is entirely possible that when the MB crowd confronted the VDS clan that early morning she was in his room or hidden on the property.  There is just not enough time in any of the many permutations of the timeline for amaturers to effectively dispose of the body.  Waiting a day or two, then taking her to a spot you know has ALREADY been searched would work great.

As far as the Father not remembering waking him up...well if he was already up and say in the shower.  NO need to awaken him.  Pulling an all nighter is easy at 18.


Title: Re: Timeline for burial at beach
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:57:25 AM
Quote from: "Itawamba"
I just can't imagine where he could've put Natalee's body if she died at Marriott Beach, without any trace of her being found yet.  There had to be a boat involved, if she were put into the ocean, and we have no evidence of that possibility.


most of the information given was false and one of natalies classmates said if she was on that beach someone would have seen her because theres alot of people out on the beach late at night.  She probably was never anywhere near mariott beach.  They should look everywhere Joran hasnt mentioned.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Twelve Monkeys on June 27, 2005, 01:57:58 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
You are right soccerdad...As far as we Know he lied!!

Ok but does that make him a murderer? I don`t think so. I think what people forget is......it`s a kid he`s 17 years old. If we think that all lyers are murderers...snip



Are you kidding us?

They lied about a person that is M I S S I N G!! not about stealing cookies for goodness sake.


Title: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: Itawamba on June 27, 2005, 01:58:39 AM
The two ATM withdrawals between 3AM and 3:45AM on Monday morning were said to have been made by Paul vdS, but we haven't heard any confirmation that the cameras ID'ed the card-user as Paul.  We don't know that it wasn't Joran.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 01:58:40 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
You are right soccerdad...As far as we Know he lied!!

Ok but does that make him a murderer? I don`t think so. I think what people forget is......it`s a kid he`s 17 years old. If we think that all lyers are murderers than we have I think minimal 1/3 of the universe to accuse! I don`t understand why nobody or at least the people in general here, not everybody thank god, can believe that somebody can lie if you are in the same situation as he is in the beginning then...When you start a lie ususally it`s getting worse we al now that...
But hey if he`s guilty then he have to pay for it absolutly your damn right about it!!

Hannie, do you think "SONNY BOY" is guilty of anything at all? If so, what exactly!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 01:59:25 AM
writenow,

I dont disagree with one word youre saying but earlier today anybody that suspects Joran has been accused of being part of a lynch mob.


Title: Re: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: dl3fan on June 27, 2005, 02:00:14 AM
Quote from: "Itawamba"
The two ATM withdrawals between 3AM and 3:45AM on Monday morning were said to have been made by Paul vdS, but we haven't heard any confirmation that the cameras ID'ed the card-user as Paul.  We don't know that it wasn't Joran.


If Joran made the atm withdrawals maybe it was to get $$$ to pay off someone to dispose of the body.   Just a thought.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "HannieC"
You are right soccerdad...As far as we Know he lied!!

Ok but does that make him a murderer? I don`t think so. I think what people forget is......it`s a kid he`s 17 years old. If we think that all lyers are murderers...snip



Are you kidding us?

They lied about a person that is M I S S I N G!! not about stealing cookies for goodness sake.


I am going to have to strongly agree with that. There ARE different "degrees" of lies and WHOA...in light of what was happening...JORAN YOU TOLD A WHOPPER!!! And whereas that may not make him automatically a murderer, it DOES say he had SOMETHING TO HIDE!!!!!!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 02:02:04 AM
writenow wrote:

Quote
Actually, what I've found on this board lately is that the Dutch, either ex-pat or native, are fiercely defending their own -- Joran, his dad & the Dutch authorities in Aruba -- because it somehow reflects on their national identity and pride. And those same people have been attacking a grieving family, a missing girl and her friends, desperately trying to find ways that a Dutch national would not be responsible for kidnapping an American. So I think you are VERY judgmental, you just aren't when it comes to your own kind.


I could say the same about you writenow... :wink:  But you know I don`t
I have a hard time sleeping b/c I `m really emotional about this and my heart goes out to natalee`s mom and family, so it`s just another assumption of you and you`re again wrong.
But why is everybody who has a different opinion here then the most of you, playing it this way? I can`t understand I said if he`s guilty or they are guilty with whatever happend with natalee, Pay clear and simple
But I accept till now that neither of us have any solid evidence that he did something else than lie, what I can understand under this circumstances sorry.. JMHO.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 02:02:13 AM
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "HannieC"
You are right soccerdad...As far as we Know he lied!!

Ok but does that make him a murderer? I don`t think so. I think what people forget is......it`s a kid he`s 17 years old. If we think that all lyers are murderers...snip



Are you kidding us?

They lied about a person that is M I S S I N G!! not about stealing cookies for goodness sake.


THANK YOU!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: natfortplum on June 27, 2005, 02:02:28 AM
Do we know how much was withdrawn from ATM, and what is the source?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: bobntexas on June 27, 2005, 02:03:20 AM
For the record, I do not believe this is a Dutch versus American issue and lambasting each others countries is ridiculous. There is probable concern that a crime has been committed and the last 3 people with Nat have admitted lying to the police regarding the events.  Everyone in the world should wish that Nat is found soon.


Title: Re: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 02:03:53 AM
Quote from: "Itawamba"
The two ATM withdrawals between 3AM and 3:45AM on Monday morning were said to have been made by Paul vdS, but we haven't heard any confirmation that the cameras ID'ed the card-user as Paul.  We don't know that it wasn't Joran.


I haven't heard much about papa's bein out that am.  What has he said to explain it if hes out at those hours?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: HannieC on June 27, 2005, 02:04:40 AM
people you can all attack me....sorry that`s MY opinion..I thougth I was entitled to my opinion on this forum?


Title: Re: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 02:05:05 AM
Quote from: "Itawamba"
The two ATM withdrawals between 3AM and 3:45AM on Monday morning were said to have been made by Paul vdS, but we haven't heard any confirmation that the cameras ID'ed the card-user as Paul.  We don't know that it wasn't Joran.


Do you know where you read/saw this? An interview? Fascinating if true.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: SoccerDad on June 27, 2005, 02:06:38 AM
Quote

Actually, what I've found on this board lately is that the Dutch, either ex-pat or native, are fiercely defending their own -- Joran, his dad & the Dutch authorities in Aruba -- because it somehow reflects on their national identity and pride. And those same people have been attacking a grieving family, a missing girl and her friends, desperately trying to find ways that a Dutch national would not be responsible for kidnapping an American. So I think you are VERY judgmental, you just aren't when it comes to your own kind.


I have been noticing the same thing. It is heartless and irrational and it is adding to my frustration and horror about this whole fiasco.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Terry on June 27, 2005, 02:06:51 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
people you can all attack me....sorry that`s MY opinion..I thougth I was entitled to my opinion on this forum?


You are.... :wink:


Wonder why Mr VDS was at an ATM at that hour?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 02:07:17 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
people you can all attack me....sorry that`s MY opinion..I thougth I was entitled to my opinion on this forum?


Hannie...don't do that. You know me, I just posted what I thought...that Joran lied thus proving that he has something to hide. What is that? I don't know yet. Does that mean he murdered someone? Not for a fact.

You are Dutch, I am French...hey...it's all good.  :D


Title: Re: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: Terry on June 27, 2005, 02:08:18 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Itawamba"
The two ATM withdrawals between 3AM and 3:45AM on Monday morning were said to have been made by Paul vdS, but we haven't heard any confirmation that the cameras ID'ed the card-user as Paul.  We don't know that it wasn't Joran.


Do you know where you read/saw this? An interview? Fascinating if true.
Dunno where this came from, but I am betting false. jmo


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 02:08:55 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
people you can all attack me....sorry that`s MY opinion..I thougth I was entitled to my opinion on this forum?


Hannie you are sure entitled to your opinion,,,but also is everybody else.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: SoccerDad on June 27, 2005, 02:08:56 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
people you can all attack me....sorry that`s MY opinion..I thougth I was entitled to my opinion on this forum?


Of course you are! We all are. But don't tell us the Dutch are not judgmental.


Title: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: Itawamba on June 27, 2005, 02:09:08 AM
I believe it must have been part of the "probable cause" presented for the detainment of Paulus.  It was at the Aruba Bank across the street from McDonald's, according to arubagirl's directions.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 02:09:28 AM
Quote from: "HannieC"
writenow wrote:

Quote
Actually, what I've found on this board lately is that the Dutch, either ex-pat or native, are fiercely defending their own -- Joran, his dad & the Dutch authorities in Aruba -- because it somehow reflects on their national identity and pride. And those same people have been attacking a grieving family, a missing girl and her friends, desperately trying to find ways that a Dutch national would not be responsible for kidnapping an American. So I think you are VERY judgmental, you just aren't when it comes to your own kind.


I could say the same about you writenow... :wink:  But you know I don`t
I have a hard time sleeping b/c I `m really emotional about this and my heart goes out to natalee`s mom and family, so it`s just another assumption of you and you`re again wrong.
But why is everybody who has a different opinion here then the most of you, playing it this way? I can`t understand I said if he`s guilty or they are guilty with whatever happend with natalee, Pay clear and simple
But I accept till now that neither of us have any solid evidence that he did something else than lie, what I can understand under this circumstances sorry.. JMHO.

But ya see Hannie, everbody is offering opinions, and they are accepted as such.  Then, sometimes, they are argued or rinforced by followup comments and facts.  You on the otherhand, seem to trash the others even as you put forth your own!  KnowwhutImean?


Title: Re: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: AzRose on June 27, 2005, 02:09:30 AM
Quote from: "Itawamba"
The two ATM withdrawals between 3AM and 3:45AM on Monday morning were said to have been made by Paul vdS, but we haven't heard any confirmation that the cameras ID'ed the card-user as Paul.  We don't know that it wasn't Joran.


I had not heard this information, but if true, this is another very interesting twist.   I had posted several pages back that a possible reason PVDS did not remember waking Joren, was that he had never been asleep that night.  Wonder what amount of $ was withdrawn and where the ATM's were located.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: writenow on June 27, 2005, 02:09:54 AM
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
writenow,

I dont disagree with one word youre saying but earlier today anybody that suspects Joran has been accused of being part of a lynch mob.


I know. And I'm still incredibly angry about the way some of those people treated Dash. It was cold and unfeeling toward a grieving young girl.


Title: HazMat Suits
Post by: Itawamba on June 27, 2005, 02:11:34 AM
We can't forget that the cops felt it necessary to wear the HazMat suits when they searched the vdS residence (including Joran's apt.), so they must've felt there was *some* reason to go to such extremes.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Kkial on June 27, 2005, 02:12:12 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
writenow,

I dont disagree with one word youre saying but earlier today anybody that suspects Joran has been accused of being part of a lynch mob.


I know. And I'm still incredibly angry about the way some of those people treated Dash. It was cold and unfeeling toward a grieving young girl.


Maybe she will come back,,She can lurk and see what is going on and then jump in......

NITE ALL<<<LEAVING IT WITH YA<<<<<<<Prayer time for Natalee


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Shell on June 27, 2005, 02:12:31 AM
How do we know the brothers were home? All I remember was somewhere reading their mother said their door was locked. If Joran had the 2 brothers with him to help, then the mechanics of it all seems more plausible. Yes, I remember the text message, but where were the locations of the messages?


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: KerinTX on June 27, 2005, 02:13:27 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
writenow,

I dont disagree with one word youre saying but earlier today anybody that suspects Joran has been accused of being part of a lynch mob.


I know. And I'm still incredibly angry about the way some of those people treated Dash. It was cold and unfeeling toward a grieving young girl.


and you know what, Write? I hope if Natalee is already gone that her body will be found quickly...this week. Because not one of Natalee's family or friends is going to be anle to grieve properly until her body is found...that's a FACT. And kids like Dash are about to start college and new lives...they need to be able to grieve and move on.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Terry on June 27, 2005, 02:13:40 AM
Quote from: "Shell"
How do we know the brothers were home? All I remember was somewhere reading their mother said their door was locked. If Joran had the 2 brothers with him to help, then the mechanics of it all seems more plausible. Yes, I remember the text message, but where were the locations of the messages?
I think Satish was logged on by 2 am.

Correct me if I am wrong. :lol:


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: ~TAZ_MAN~ on June 27, 2005, 02:14:38 AM
Quote from: "Shell"
How do we know the brothers were home? All I remember was somewhere reading their mother said their door was locked. If Joran had the 2 brothers with him to help, then the mechanics of it all seems more plausible. Yes, I remember the text message, but where were the locations of the messages?


We dont know the brothers were home.

Theres been no verification of the text messages.

also, I think the brothers live at 2 different residences.  One with the mom and one with the grandmother.  Not sure but thats what i think I heard the mother say.


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Chaumes on June 27, 2005, 02:14:57 AM
Quote
so why did he not use his charm on Beth too?

Because another established characteristic of a true sociopath is that they will waste no time on those they (the sociopath) suspect to be onto them.  They only attempt their con on the completely unsuspecting (strangers), those they have consistently conned in the past (relatives, loved ones), and those they believe they've got a fighting chance to deceive and/or stall (in this case, interrogators).

If nothing else, sociopaths are clever with nearly an innate sense about whom they may have a chance at deceiving - i.e. they can nearly smell their 'marks' (victims).  Experts at manipulating situations to achieve their desired reality, they can smell their escape routes as well.  In the case of JVDS, he knows, absolutely, that time is on his side.  He can only be held for so long.  

After nearly four weeks of being questioned, he has learned that what he has done so far, (telling his version of events and then changing that version several times) has resulted in... his not being charged with a crime.  

He didn't have to be a brilliant criminal mind to make a corpse disappear.  He only had to be an average sociopath who could count on average or below average police/detective work and a little bit of luck.


Title: Re: ATM Withdrawals
Post by: TTownMike on June 27, 2005, 02:15:40 AM
Quote from: "AzRose"
Quote from: "Itawamba"
The two ATM withdrawals between 3AM and 3:45AM on Monday morning were said to have been made by Paul vdS, but we haven't heard any confirmation that the cameras ID'ed the card-user as Paul.  We don't know that it wasn't Joran.


I had not heard this information, but if true, this is another very interesting twist.   I had posted several pages back that a possible reason PVDS did not remember waking Joren, was that he had never been asleep that night.  Wonder what amount of $ was withdrawn and where the ATM's were located.


And how does he explain being out?  And like I said by lying "I don't remember if I woke him"  he is copping out.  No lie!  Jus a bunch o igernunce, sotaspeak!


Title: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening
Post by: Twelve Monkeys on June 27, 2005, 02:15:53 AM
Quote from: "writenow"
Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "HannieC"
You are right soccerdad...As far as we Know he lied!!

Ok but does that make him a murderer? I don`t think so. I think what people forget is......it`s a kid he`s 17 years old. If we think that all lyers are murderers...snip



Are you kidding us?

They lied about a per