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enjoy!

I saw this asked on another thread...Can Paulus VD Sloot now File Suit againt the Prosecuter for unlawful arrest and imprisonment? In that she(Prosecuter) was using him to out pressure on his(Joran) son ? That would NEVER happen in the good ole USA...Thank God...


GuyWdog

TRIED TO POST THIS IN THE LAST POST It has already been established that we have all made bad judgements as well as done some stupid things as teenagers.   And yes, think it is safe to say.  Everyone or most everyone did the underage thing.

iquitos can you help me on this article it`s the only one who`s up to date wich I 'Geen bewijs voor moord op meisje'
Door Maaike Ruepert

Rechter-in-opleiding Paul van der S., die sinds donderdag achter Arubaanse tralies zit, kan zich niet aan de indruk ontrekken dat hij gevangen zit om zijn zoon Joran van der S. onder druk te zetten.

Gisteravond moest rechter-commissaris R. Smid een beslissing nemen of het Openbaar Ministerie (OM) Paul van der S. langer mag vasthouden in verband met zijn mogelijke betrokkenheid bij de vermissing van de Amerikaanse Natalee Holloway. Het OM wil Van der S. langer aan de tand voelen, omdat hij verschillende verklaringen zou hebben afgelegd over wat hij weet wat er is gebeurd in de nacht dat Holloway verdween, vier weken geleden.

,,Het is vreselijk voor hem'', zegt zij advocaat A. Swaen. ,,De man zit al vijftien jaar op Aruba. Ik ken hem professioneel als jurist. Hij zou aan het einde van dit jaar zijn opleiding tot rechter afronden. Zijn leven hangt hier vanaf.'' Van der S. senior wordt net als zijn zoon verdacht van medeplichtigheid aan moord, doodslag of wederrechtelijke vrijheidsberoving met de dood tot gevolg.

De rechter-commissaris heeft tot vandaag de tijd om een beslissing te nemen over verlenging van de detentie van Joran van der S. en de Surinaamse broers Deepak en Satish K. Hoewel A. de Bie, advocaat van Joran van der S. denkt dat zijn cliënt langer vast moet blijven, is er volgens hem geen enkel bewijs. ,,Het OM is alleen nog maar met suggesties en vermoedens gekomen. Er komt een moment dat het niet meer redelijk is om hem langer vast te houden. Het feit dat iemand jokt of ooit een keer gelogen heeft, betekent niet dat hij het heeft gedaan.''

Ook R. Oomen, advocaat van Deepak K., begrijpt niet waarom zijn cliënt zolang wordt vastgehouden. ,,Ik heb geen enkele aanwijzing dat er een misdrijf is gepleegd'', zegt Oomen. Deepak verleent volgens zijn advocaat alle medewerking aan het onderzoek. ,,Hij heeft alles verklaard wat hij kan verklaren. De grenzen zijn genaderd van wat in een rechtstaat acceptabel is.''

Volgens D. Kock, raadsman van Deepaks broer Satish, kan iedereen bij deze zaak worden betrokken. ,,Je voelt dat men niet weet wat er is gebeurd. We weten allemaal niet meer dan dat het meisje wordt vermist.''

De rechter-commissaris heeft gisteren wel Steve C. vrijgelaten. Deze 26-jarige dj van een partyboot, kende Joran van der S. en Satish K. niet eens. Alleen Deepak K. had hij wel eens ontmoet in het internetcafé waar Deepak werkte.

Volgens Deepak en Satish hebben zij Joran van der S. met Holloway op het strand naast het Marriott Hotel achtergelaten in de nacht de Amerikaanse verdween. Zij gingen toen naar huis. Later belde Van der S. naar Deepak met de mededeling dat hij alleen naar huis liep. Zijn huis ligt kilometers verwijderd van het bewuste strand. Later stuurde Van der S. nog een sms'je naar Deepak met de tekst: Ik ben thuis.




can find.... it`s is from the AD newspaper

No one is beyond reproach, the thing is you need some evidence to reproach someone.  And when people continually without any evidence make outrageous claims regarding Natalees behavior it is very offensive to her frriends and to a lot of us as well.  The same is true of Joran or anyone else in this case as well.  For instance, a lot of the attacks on his mother were completely ridiculous and irrelevant.

Natalee introduced herself to Joran, chatted with him, invited him to Carlos 'n Charlie's, danced with him there, walked out with him, and apparently voluntarily got in the car with him. I would say she sort of liked him, although of course she couldn't have known him very well after such a short time.

I am going to reserve comment until later that one of the few people who were willing to talk about events just got ran off. Some one who many of us are thankful made an effort to give info when she did not have to.

Many of you have bitched and moaned that there were no MB's making comments or not going on shows. Its not that there were not MB teens doing so ... its they were not saying what you wanted to hear or refused to listen to.

How many times do people have to be told ... these are teenagers ... not adults and the same rules do not apply!

It's always fun to see how long it takes for everyone to get over to a new thread...lol

Please update me, as I only stay here and rarely venture out to the main page.

Who are all those people posting comments?  And how did they end up there and not here (I am certainly not complaining).

Also, the following post was under the latest headline on the SM home page.  What's this all about - junk???

ET Says:

June 26th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
It’s cruel hard to say that, but it was horrible to see when she run to swim @ Malmok, and Joran tried to stop her (unsuccessfully), and she drowned…

(that's the end of the post)

Ann Rule and others thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy. They can fool ya!

There are rumors joran did have some scratches or marks on his face that Monday.

Disclaimer: not stating this as fact, just rumor read on blog, Dan's I think

I doubt it. And what about the security guards that were arrested and Croes? :roll:

I just hope the Texas search team finds her in what ever condition and gives her parents some peace to go home. I am just not sure that justice will be done in this little banana republic justic system of Aruba's. I hope I'm totally and utterly wrong.

Junk.  If she ran to swim and he tried to stop her, that's all he would have had to say from day one. Case closed.  There's more to it -- not saying he deliberately harmed her, but that he did something that involves him to the point of needing to conspire an alibi with friends  and then change it a few times.

My challenge was to all the posters here villainizing Joran because he was drinking when he was not old enough (he was about two months shy of his 18th birthday). Unless these posters never drank until they hit the legal age, they are hypocrites.

Hi Hannie ,

I cna try translating it if iquitos is not doing it right now

Some perspective on what we know about the school group's interaction with Joran:

Natalee was seen, on different occasions:

engaging in casual chit chat with him in a casino

dancing with him

The young lady who was on the trip reports seeing her walking with someone tall with dark hair (it was dark)

A cousin of Natalee's is said to have had a "scuffle" with Joran. We don't know if "scuffle" in this case refers to raised voices, physical contact, name-calling or what. We don't know what the scuffle was about. Natalee was seen dancing with Joran after this had occurred.

Have I left anything out?

MY OPINION IS NOT JUST BASED ON HIS UNDERAGE DRINKING BY ANY MEANS  It is more based on character than anything else.

Of course, lots of us drank when we were underage. Especially in other countries where drinking age is 18. When I went to Mexico, they had 15-16 year olds in the bars. Can ya believe that?

Hey believe it or not I went to daytona beach junior and senior year and never took a drink. Tastes like crap and I still don't drink that stuff. Thankfully my 23 year old says the same thing. Very proud of her.

Absolutely.  And at that age you are much more likely to wear your feelings on your shoulders.  We tried so hard for so long to change posting style when Dash was with us, but it doesn't seem to work anymore.  I feel very badly for her.  They have been put on the defense so many times already and feel so very protective of their lost friend.

Thanks bendex but they seems to bee a little behind with the news.....that explains also why i`m glued to sm.. :wink:

By the way, has anyone heard of a reaction from the family to the latest new of the two releases.

Based on the fact alone that Joran changed his story makes me question him and how about the fact that he was the last one to be seen with Natalee.  He's now proved (at least to me) that he doesn't tell the truth.

I've read the drowning rumors before. But Fox had this boat captain on and he said that the surf would bring a dead body back on shore. :roll:

Working is the sin of the drinking class - oscar wilde -

The Calvary here's!  at any rate, on the other thread I admitted to some underage drinking because to lie would have resulted in my being struck by lightning. About Natalee meeting and spending time with joran that night. I can't and won't speak for Natalee, but I know a lot of us girls who have met guys in various situations, and decided in the first few minutes if he was someone to spend time with.   And girls know a guy will act one way if he thinks he has a shot at getting something from a girl, versus anyone else he thinks may be standing in his way.Happens all the time.
It is called a One-Night Stand which can involve anything from sleeping, passing out or well, you know what I mean.

I try not to be a hypocrite.  I drank before I was 21.  Alot of teenagers do.  I, for one, would never vilify someone for underage drinking or gambling.

I do think, however, we should consider the fact that Joran's parents did not seem to enforce a lot of rules on him.  He was out partying on a school night right before final exams.  It has been said that he gambled with his father.  I just find it to be a telling thing about him and his family dynamics that he was allowed to so openly break rules and laws - especially considering his father's line of work.  Yes, I drank underage, but my friends and I were more secretive about it, and my parents would have NEVER condoned it.  I got grounded for it, as a matter of fact.  :oops:

Tonight at 10 on Geraldo.

I still don`t understand what the drinking is about, maybe it`s b/c i`m dutch and used to a more liberal way of living, but i was also young and a girl and i can absolutly understand what youths are doing if they are from home at a beatiful place with a lot of friends and new people to meet!

I think that the 'responsable drinking ' isn`t the issue here, those kids were having fun drinking or not, they are no robots either. I think that a lot of people are forgetting that they were young also.... :wink:

Aruba is a resort, they probably aren't as strict there as here in the US

I think that is kind of mean calling Aruba a banana republic. They just have a big time different way of doing things than here in the US. Blame the people who lied, joran and the bros kalpoe. Perhaps if they did nothing with Natalee, the "real" perps could have been caught.

That is if they aren't already at KIA

That seems to be all the evidence a lot of people need to convict him of murder. I think you have to get inside Joran's head to think why he might have lied. Maybe he heard that "something bad happened" to Natalee and he didn't want to get blamed for it. Maybe he did something with Natalee (sexual?) that he feels guilty about.  :roll:

So true! Maybe a sociopath?

If Jug is not upset or seems to understand the release of PVDS and SC then the family knows far more than they are saying in my book.

WWIZARD WROTE:

[/quote]again w/ respect, why is NH above reproach??

Not only that but it seems like when drinking is allowed at a younger age people don't focus on it as much.  It isn't as big of a deal as it is here.

I am sad to see Dash go, and I am desperately praying for Natalee's safe return.  I am looking forward to your later comments, Red.  Thanks again for all your dedication.

My response to that would be, IF "Joran and his Mom appear close.. ", why was she so clueless about his "lifestyle"???

<<

She did NOT invite him to C&C.  On the contrary he told her that no one went there on Sunday.  She went there with other friends and who shows up but Joren.  She walked out with him??  Maybe.  Maybe not.  How would you not walk with somebody his size following you?  Seconds before she got into that car, she had told her friend she was going back to HI with the other students and no one has seen her since.  Except Joren, that is.

Definitely, though the FOX reporter just called it a letdown for the family, so I'm guessing they're not going to be very happy but hoping for the opposite.

Joran was doing well in school, was almost 18, and probably turned the other cheek. The lifestyles of the people on the island are much different than here.

It makes me so sad Dash, of all people, has been run off this forum.  These are kids!!!  They've been through and are still going through a horrible event. While I support all discussions, and welcome all kinds of personalities, I think we've just acted like complete asses. Are the theories here so damn important that we can't stop and show respect while these kids are here? Or at least while they are posting in our presence?

Dash came here and found love and support from people she didn't know.. we shared her wish to find truth.

To all those who bashed the kids for staying quiet, you should be ashamed of yourselves.  This is a prime example of why they are staying quiet.

The egos and self possessed BS has just reached an all time high.  

I hate injustice.  I hated what happened yesterday to another poster for having the wrong "tone".  By those standards there are a slew of posters who should be thrown out of here.

I have always taken in kids who travel and need a place to stay and a home cooked meal. I've done so hoping the karma will be returned when my kids are out alone. I guess that kind of hospitality isn't present here today.

Again, those who attacked the kids and their actions while Dash and others were posting here this afternoon, should be ashamed.

I cannot believe I am bringing this up but the one common thread in sociopath / psychopath's early behaviour is cruelty to animals - there is something for someone who is a real keener to lok into

Because she chose to be.  Because mothers sometimes don't want to believe that their children can do wrong.  Should she have been more involved and more realistic?  Yes.  But sometimes mothers choose to believe the best of their children and are truly shocked when something like this happens.

hey Hannie! :lol:
some of us are on the same page!!

Sleeks wrote:
SO INSPECTOR WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED???


Well right now (because we havn't found a dead body) I think at some point Joran did leave her alone, and she was kidnapped by someone we have not heard about yet. Maybe she's being held in a personal residence right now against her will?

Inspector - You don't believe she is dead because there is no body.  However you believe she is kidnapped with no kidnapper or ransom note.

I feel sorry that Dash was upset - I think she's really trying to cope with a horrible situation and she's certainly been a great protector of her friend's reputation.

I think the real problem is that this is not a "Natalee Support Group" - it's a board debating/discussing a crime - and so what Dash was looking for from the discussion and what most of the discussion participants are just at odds.

Is Greta going back to Aruba on Monday? She needs to kick Geraldo out of there again...

<<

I saw beds in the tour given on TV.  Everything is spic and span and brand new.  Much nicer than prisons in this country, America.  There is a sort of desk/table, locker.  He is at the new KIA facility and it is rather nice for a prison.

Thank you Red, I was trying to figure out how to say it. I second your post, although you da man and don't need my input.

If they watched her drown, that would have been what they changed their story to. Hell, they should have concocted that one to begin with if they're responsible for harming her. It would have been the easiest to get out of.

thank you

la_cavalière wrote:
Joran couldn't have been THAT much of a jerk that Sunday. Natalee apparently took a liking to him, and everyone says she had great judgment. If she had thought he was an arrogant liar, I doubt she would have spent any time with him.

Hi, la_cav  :D .  Maybe you missed my previous response because it was on page 50 of the last thread.  I wrote:

We really don't know if Natalee "took a liking to him" or not. How would we know that? For all we know, he saw her and her group leaving the bar and walked out to try to catch her and spend more time with her. We don't know that she spoke to him other than introducing herself earlier that day. And just because you introduce yourself to someone doesn't mean you took a liking to them. It is being polite. When my husband and I were in Vegas, if we were at a table gambling for a while with the same people, we would introduce ourselves or strike up small talk. That didn't mean we wanted to date the people.

I'd also like to add that I don't recall anyone saying she invited him to CnC's or was dancing with him at the bar.  One more thing.  Last night a woman told of her experience when she was unknowingly drugged with a "date rape" drug.  He husband told her that she was walking and talking coherently, yet she had no memory of it.  ***PERHAPS Natalee was drugged when she left the bar with the group of MBers and then Joran asked her if he could ride with her back to HI.  IN THIS THEORETICAL SCENARIO, she would have been willing to get in the car with him, but she would not have been cognizant of her actions.  JUST A THOUGHT  :D

blfit wrote:




I think you are absolutly right on that one blfit, maybe that`s why a lot of american kids go on a holiday or springbreak in another country or island
Just to do things whitout being illegal in america isn`t there illegal, and enjoy.... nothing wrong with that I think.. but hey I`m dutch and not even on drugs or alcohol and I know a lot of people aren`t here junkies or alcoholics in spite we are liberal.... so what can I say, it`s just a mythe just like a lot of people are thinking that we are whear wooden shoes and we`re sufficating on tulips or something... :lol:

<<

I have not seen anyone villanizing Joren just because he was drinking underage but when you add in gambling the night away in casinos when he has school the next day, photos of him passed out and doing all that other stuff on his webpages, the teasing him about roofies and other drugs, lying, trying to start fights, being sent to anger management for kicking his brothers, pounding his chest at adult women and on and one, do you not see anything wrong, no pattern of any sort?  Just a fine fella by your standards?

I wonder how he could stay awake for class for at that age, my kids required extra sleep, not less.  Never knew a teenager who didn't come to think of it.

I don't think the point was that he was drinking 2 months before his legal age!  It has been very obvious to most that he was doing this for quite some time.  He could not have been that unknown on the island.  People had to know he was still in HS.  From what we have seen on web pictures his behavior has been the same for a long time.  I don't buy the excuse he was just using a fake ID so we didn't know how old he was.

Drinking establishments and casinos have gone on the record saying they never let anyone in under age.  They did look the other way in this case.  

Am I a hypocrite?  No!  I actually did not drink until legal age, however, I don't see what that has to do with anything.

:arrow: wwizard...by serpentine are you referring to the 3 or something bigger?  And, yes, trying to follow the $$$.  thanx

To be honest, I do not know if I would advise someone so closely connected with the victim to venture beyond websites that deal exclusively with prayers and hopes that Natalee can be returned to her family, a prayer and hope that I share.

It is understandable the the Alabama kids are so emotional, yet at same time I think that everyone on here should be able to have a voice...

You have no proof she invited him to CnCs. Nor do you have any proof that SHE walked with HIM. HE could have walked out with HER after slipping her a roofie.

She was either kidnapped or ran away by herself. I don't think she ran away. It may not have been the kidnappers plan to ask for ransom, but to sell her into the sex slave trade. Remember what happened to Amy Bradley...

friends of monkeys wrote:



 :lol:  :lol: ... still get a little of a headache again tho..... :wink:




Hi coco :D

Not true.  her friends stated in an interview that she did ask him to go.  He was reluctant for the reason you stated and others.  According to other students, she did not say she was going back to HI with other group of students.  They "assumed" she was.

Hi guys

Made the pictures, but got really really nauseous for some reason, so was only able to take the Lighthouse-Hotel-Oranjestad area.

I'm so so sorry.

And then I had my goddaugther's ballet recital.

HannieC, did you get any 'beschuit met muisjes'? Do you know the name of the new princess?

I agree with having a voice but I think some things have been said with an edge to them...and it's not necessary.

just an priciple I've had for years :D

I think Dash had good intentions of answering our questions.  I imagine she also wanted to "get the truth out" about Natalee and the type of person she knew Natalee to be.  I am sure she didn't realize people would be so callous on this forum.  I am sad to see her go.  :cry:

thank you

Just because this forum is debating a crime doesn't mean we can post whatever we want.  

If I were to make a post saying that I thought Natalee died while having sex with 10 men and doing every drug known to man without any evidence whatsoever, would that be acceptable?  Obviously it isn't.  We know this because it is a) completely unfoudned b) outrageous given what we know of her character and c) blatantly insulting to a victim.  

I've seen a lot of things like this on the forum, not any as outrageous, but some have come close.  I think this is the sort of stuff that makes Dash angry.

coco wrote:


It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.

She'll be back, I'm sure

I suspect that there may be former date-rape victims of Joran van der Sloot lurking on this forum. If you are such a person, then I would advise you to contact the FBI or to send a private message to one of the founders of this forum. As a participant on this forum, I can attest that the founders of this forum are people of integrity and are people whom you can trust. You may wish to work out an agreement with them as to how you want that information to be handled, but I would urge anyone who has been victimized by this man, or who feels that she may have been given a date-rape drug by him, to have their voice heard. I have made a similar announcement at Riehl World.

I don't think so...think she's had enough.

Paulus probably told Joran...'You can spend another 100 days in here, or another 7000.  The choice is yours.'

If this case reaches a dead end, as a last resort, they should allow the FBI to be alone with Joran, and tell him, 'we've cut a deal with the Aruban authorities to bring you to the US, where you'll be tried and convicted by a jury of your peers in Alabama, and be sentenced to death.  Don't worry, a lethal injection is a quick, painless way to go.  Your Dad can't help you.  The future of the island is more important than you.'

If he doesn't sing by the time he boards the FBI's plane, then, and only then would I believe in his innocence.

Right, what I am saying is that they are defending their friend, but in actualitly, who is here to defend the 3 boys in custody?  I certainly am not saying these 3 are innocent, but at same time, I also want to remain objective.  I am in my 40's and still know some of the crazy things I did when not with my folk's around at the age of 17/18, and if they knew half of it, they would be rolling in their graves to this day

Well, SC and papa released for now. At least the new judge seemed satisfied with the cased against joren and the other 2 punks. It would appear the the case against the 3 is strong, if 2 different judges have ordered them held.

Those of you in the US better start calling, writing and otherwise making a nuisance out ourself with your elected officials, the FBI and the White House. Tell them we demand justice in this case, which is in the best interest of Aruba as well.  

Joren is guilty in my book, why?

1)Too many lies for no good reason.
2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"  
3) He never brought Natalee back to the HI. His other bullcrap stories of "left her hysterical on the beach" and "left her sleeping on the beach" are either moronic or point to a woman raped, drugged or killed.

Other than that, the rumors of cell calls and text messages that night point to some type of activity.

If this case collapses and the result is "we don't know what happent the Natalee" or that " she might be kidnapped", that should spell doom for Aruba. That is not the story Aruba wants to tell. It will scare people away for sure.

icey

Where is their any indication of this?

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?p=35052#35052

updated timeline from (WriteNow) Thanks.

The suspect in this case, Joran Van der Sloot and two other individuals were the last persons seen with Natalee Halloway.  Since that  time different versions by the alledged have been told of where Ms. Holloway was droped off that evening after a trip to the lighthouse along the coastline.  It was also reported that "something bad happened".  What exactly that was and where it occured remains a mystery.  Continuing on with the questioning....personally, Joran has no credibility with me.  The alleged doesn't demonstate character befitting of a responsible, law-abiding person in society socially.  Even more importantly here is suspect alledged of a crime who changes thier description of events during questioning is concealing information either to protect him or herself or other individuals invloved or those aware of the crime committed.  In my estimation what has been told may very well be nothing less than an elaborate smokescreen to protect suspects and others potentially involved in Natalee Holloway's dissapearance.  I trust that a former prosecutor and judge in training should advise his son to answer questions as thoroughly and accurately as possible.  After all, they have had ample time to do so and I would immagine that any good parent in such a position would have casually discussed this on more than at least one occasion.   :!:   IN ADDITION, these subjects should not have been released after their initial questioning. It would have also been of benefit to have had the entire Alabama group remain on the island for questioning prior to their departure back home.

<<I have warned from day one that you have to let the Arubans handle this like they know how.>>


It wasn't pressure from family, U.S. media, U.S. government that caused the police to foul up the initial missing person report filing.

Nor did it cause the police to fail to secure a controlled interview from one of the last people seen with the missing person for six hours before the Holloways reached the Van Der Sloot residence.

And it didn't cause the police to neglect the collection of physical evidence, for nine days, from the last people seen with the missing person, when those people failed to provide a verifiable alibi.

And it didn't cause the police to detain two security guards with no connection to the case.

So I don't see the proof for the presence of Natalee's family, the U.S. media, and the FBI being a malevolent force on the investigation.  Because it appears that Aruban law enforcement's consistent screw-ups - and make no mistake, the handling of PVDS is another massive one - appear to occur independent of who or what is supposedly pressuring it.

oh.thanx.  for some reason it reminds me of a family of clever pickpockets
that I saw at a bus/reststop in Italy...waiting for the next bus after ours..
and yes, they got me! $300.

Surprisingly a lot of people are defending Joran, I dont agree with a lot of what they say, but it is good to have them here to balance things out.

heck, I'll admit it, I vacillate between the goog girl/bad girl scenarios with the attending theories.......all I know is what's on this screen

professor-
I suspect there are victims of jvds out there and I would love to think that they have already contacted the FBI.

Hi Puggy! (My nick should be BeagleWeagle). I still think the chances are greater that Natalee sort of liked Joran than she was trying to evade him the whole night.

I don't know if she invited Joran, but I know she told him she was going to CnCs that night. Why would you do that if you thought he was a jerk? And why would she dance with him? Why would she walk out with him? If she didn't like him, she could have asked one of the dozens of MBH students there to walk out with her.

I remember being in situations where a guy I didn't like was hanging out around me, and I would be sure to join my friends to get rid of him.

I'm sure Joran can be very charming with the ladies, and he was likely charming in Natalee's eyes that evening.

Hi arubagirl.. :D  No i didn`t get any "beschuit met muisjes" but then again it`s really bad foor your teeth they are so hard to chew on....

And I didn`t see her name already I think the name will be announced when the prince is going to the 'gemeentehuis'   :? To write the birthcertificate

According to Satish's attorney, there is no evidence in this case whatsoever, and I for one agree with him. :wink:

I'm very sad, too. We all love Dash. And I'm very angry that Joran & company's friends/family have chosen to attack her.

2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?

Hell, he was gambling at the Excelsior with his dad that night.

again w/ respect, why is NH above reproach??

[/quote]<<

No one is above reproach but you need something factual with which to do it.  So far, there is not much in that regard.  But why would you want to reproach her?  She is the victim here and the one who is missing and likely dead.  Most people do not want to speak ill of the dead because they are not here to defend themselves making it a really obnoxious thing to do.

Why would anybody want to issue reproach on somebody who is probably deceased and the victim of some horrible crime?  It is generally considered pretty low class to attack somebody who cannot fight back.

Except they would have to explain why they didn't call for help on their cell phones.

I don't think that drinking at a club, leaving with new friends, or walking alone on the beach makes someone a "bad girl". Nor does it have anything to do with the disappearance case. :roll:

Thanks, Hannie C.

where did this come from

So US juries convict without evidence? Sounds corrupt to me. Also as a minor, Joran is not eligible for the DP, even in the US (recent ruling by the Supremes).

Oh yeah. Big shock there that a defense attorney says there's no evidence and his client is innocent.

Hey pal, that's in the lawyer handbook. They all say that even when they know their client's lying through their teeth.

icey posted it, perhaps (s)he misheard the "what do you want me to do about it" alleged response from Joran

I agree HannieC.  Sometimes the older we get "old-timers" seems to set in.  I also think that it is little bit more liberal way of living in Aruba than what a lot of us in the US are use to.  So people may need to take that in to consideration when looking at another culture. IMHO

I have to agree regarding dash. When this forum first started I didn't believe she could possibly be one of Natalee's friends posting in a forum full of debate. I was proved to be wrong, she actually was real. But I think this is the wrong place for a friend of Natalee's to come to without expecting open discussion with people from all over the world commenting and debating this topic of missing Natalee.

This forum reminds me alot of forums such as Court tv and Websleuths. And I don't beleive it is a good place to read stuff you don't want to see from victims family, or victims friends. I know if I was one of those 2, it would be very hard to read some of the ideas being brought up here.

I have to say, I agree with you there.  I appreciate all the insight that Dash has given us here, but I think her own well-being should come before our "desire to know".

I hope Dash takes the time to relax and get the comfort and support she needs.

A discussion forum where people are disecting a potential crime against her friend, is not the best place for her at this time.

My thoughts and prayers are with Natalee, her family and today especially.. with her FRIEND, Alana.

Hi, all I'm saying is that no one said she danced with him, to my recollection.  And she could have just asked, "What are you doing tonight" as a way to chit chat while they are sitting at the same gambling table.  WHat I mean is that I don't think we should assume she was interested in him.  There has been so much misinformation out there, and I have been basing my theories (plural - again, I have not made up my mind!  :) ) on what Dash, Dash's mom, and other parents of kids from the trip have posted.  When she left the bar, it was at the same time as a group of MB kids.  Dash asked her a question and Natalee replied that she was going back to the HI quote, "with them" and pointed to the group of MB kids.  That is one thing I believe happened.  :)

arubagirl  Is it against the law in aruba to lie to the police?  in the USA it is  the cops can lie to you  but you lie to they  it's aother charge

IMO Dash is suffering now, her feelings are a little too raw to have any salt poured on them.  My heart goes out to her.

Surprisingly a lot of people are defending Joran, I dont agree with a lot of what they say, but it is good to have them here to balance things out.[/quote]

I agree with that.  What I am saying is that I think everyone at times speaks from their emotions and get's carried away without realizing it.

What's with the stars today?

I just received what I consider a very offensive PM who says they are writing with their ADMIN hat off.  This person said there was a time when "Dallas" protected the kids from my questions.  Since I have never, ever posted anything that would be offensive to those kids, I take real issue with such a comment.

The poster/admin went on to say:


Are we now the FBI?  Are we law enforcement? We feel we can now hold kids experiencing deep trauma and loss accountable?  These kids owe us?  Give me a break.

If this is a serious crime forum, why did we welcome these kids here to begin with?  Sure, we got what we wanted from them,  sought their friendship and now we're done with them?

I think at least two of the Admins here should resign...that does NOT include Catriana...she rocks.  But, the PM's I've received from two of them are absolutely nuts.

I suggest we create a thread somewhere where these kids can be welcome with open arms.  The selfish jerks can stay away from that spot.  We owe them some kind of mature caring and fairness.

there are some others blogs that paint a different picture.....heck, I don't know...I wasn't there.

mehill, if you sign a sworn statement and later it turns out not to be true, it's criminal.

VERY well said..ditto to that!

I have never seen that quote before.  Sounds like just another rumor.

You're kidding me, right?  I didn't mean it, literally.  

I'm talking about scaring the $hit out of the kid to the point that he actually believes he's no longer protected.

Somehow the quote messed up.  

I agree with Nancy but have to take her quote out since it swallowed mine.


To all those who bashed the kids for staying quiet, you should be ashamed of yourselves.  This is a prime example of why they are staying quiet.[/qupote


I agree.  I just got back to the forum.  There are times when adults need to realize that vulnerable and hurting people are around.  It is not  a free speech issue.  It is a human decency issue to put a filter on your keyboard and think before your type.

Also, there is zero, no, none, zilch, nada, excuse to vilify the victim in a crime.   Sadly there are some people who just like to put people down and destroy rather than build up.


If you are one of the people that ran Dash off, first,  in my opinion you owe her and her mother an apology, and second, you really need to look in the mirror and think about yourself.  If you were that victim--would you want to have every little secret exposed and every tiny speck of dirt exposed.  

When there is a choice between going the "nice" think and the smart, sarcastic, witty thing, try picking nice for a change.[/quote]

Film clip of PvdS on Fox: He said something like "I want to go home to my wife." The second part I didn't catch.

Nancy_Drew:
 I am suprised that you who seems to be very concerned about justice would interprete people's opinions that way. I have been on this forum for quite a while & I have not seen anyone attacking the MB kids in general on Natalee in particular! If she did drink, like Joran, went willingly with him, made-out, etc; there is NOTHING in those actions that constitute bad character for an 18 yr old. If she didn't, she would be weird!!!

Without being facetious, I have had opportunity to observe in the last few years that young people from the American South & those from a village in Nunavut generally act the same given similar circumstances.

Dash is off-course very sensitive about this sisnce its so close to home & her reaction is understandable.

so why  was the DJ  not held and charged for telling the lie about seeing NH at the holday inn

Judge in training Paul v d S whom since thursday is behind bars in Aruba, cannot resist the impression that he is imprisoned to pressure his son Joran.

Rechter-in-opleiding Paul van der S., die sinds donderdag achter Arubaanse tralies zit, kan zich niet aan de indruk ontrekken dat hij gevangen zit om zijn zoon Joran van der S. onder druk te zetten.

Yesterdaynight the magistrate R.Smid had to take a decisicion for if the DA office could detain Paul van der S. for a longer period in relation to his possible involvement in the disapearance of the American Natalee Holloway- The D.A. wanted to retain him for further questioning due to he made different statements about what he knows what happend the night Holloway dissapeared, 4 weeks ago.

Gisteravond moest rechter-commissaris R. Smid een beslissing nemen of het Openbaar Ministerie (OM) Paul van der S. langer mag vasthouden in verband met zijn mogelijke betrokkenheid bij de vermissing van de Amerikaanse Natalee Holloway. Het OM wil Van der S. langer aan de tand voelen, omdat hij verschillende verklaringen zou hebben afgelegd over wat hij weet wat er is gebeurd in de nacht dat Holloway verdween, vier weken geleden.

"It is terrible for him " says his lawyer A. Swaen. The man has been in aruba for 15 years. I Know him proffesionally as a jurist . At the end of this year he would finish his education for Judge. His live depends on it. Van der S. Sr is being just like his son suspected of complice of murder,
murder and abduction with resulting death.

,,Het is vreselijk voor hem'', zegt zij advocaat A. Swaen. ,,De man zit al vijftien jaar op Aruba. Ik ken hem professioneel als jurist. Hij zou aan het einde van dit jaar zijn opleiding tot rechter afronden. Zijn leven hangt hier vanaf.'' Van der S. senior wordt net als zijn zoon verdacht van medeplichtigheid aan moord, doodslag of wederrechtelijke vrijheidsberoving met de dood tot gevolg.

The magistrate has untill today to decide if the detention of Joran and the two Surinam brothers Deepak and Satish can renewed.
Allthough A.de Bie lawyer of Joran van der S. thinks that his client is going to be detained for an other period, even there is no proof at all.
The DA only has shown suggestions or suspicions. There is a moment that it is not reasonable anymore to detain him any further. The fact that someone lied  just once does not mean that he has done it.

De rechter-commissaris heeft tot vandaag de tijd om een beslissing te nemen over verlenging van de detentie van Joran van der S. en de Surinaamse broers Deepak en Satish K. Hoewel A. de Bie, advocaat van Joran van der S. denkt dat zijn cliënt langer vast moet blijven, is er volgens hem geen enkel bewijs. ,,Het OM is alleen nog maar met suggesties en vermoedens gekomen. Er komt een moment dat het niet meer redelijk is om hem langer vast te houden. Het feit dat iemand jokt of ooit een keer gelogen heeft, betekent niet dat hij het heeft gedaan.''

Also R. Oomen lawyer of Deepak K. does not understand why his client is detained for such a long period. I have no clues that there has been commited a crime , says Oomen. Deepak according to his lawyer has declared everything he can declare. The limits/boundries of what is acceptable in state of law has been reached.

Ook R. Oomen, advocaat van Deepak K., begrijpt niet waarom zijn cliënt zolang wordt vastgehouden. ,,Ik heb geen enkele aanwijzing dat er een misdrijf is gepleegd'', zegt Oomen. Deepak verleent volgens zijn advocaat alle medewerking aan het onderzoek. ,,Hij heeft alles verklaard wat hij kan verklaren. De grenzen zijn genaderd van wat in een rechtstaat acceptabel is.''

According to D. Kock lawyer of Sathish, everybody can be involved in this . You feel that they do not know anymore what has happend. We all know nomore then that a girl is been missing.

Volgens D. Kock, raadsman van Deepaks broer Satish, kan iedereen bij deze zaak worden betrokken. ,,Je voelt dat men niet weet wat er is gebeurd. We weten allemaal niet meer dan dat het meisje wordt vermist.''

The magistrate did release Steve C. yesterday. This 26 year old d.j. of a partyboat , did not even know Joran or Satish. Only Deepak K. he met occasionally in the cybercafe where Deepak works.

De rechter-commissaris heeft gisteren wel Steve C. vrijgelaten. Deze 26-jarige dj van een partyboot, kende Joran van der S. en Satish K. niet eens. Alleen Deepak K. had hij wel eens ontmoet in het internetcafé waar Deepak werkte.

According to Deepak en Satish they left Joran van der S. with Holloway on the beach next to the Marriot Hotel, in the night the American girl disapeared. After that they went home. Later van der S called Deepak to notify him he was walking home alone . His house is kilometres distant from the mentioned beach. Later van der S. sent a message sms to Deepak with the text : I am home

Volgens Deepak en Satish hebben zij Joran van der S. met Holloway op het strand naast het Marriott Hotel achtergelaten in de nacht de Amerikaanse verdween. Zij gingen toen naar huis. Later belde Van der S. naar Deepak met de mededeling dat hij alleen naar huis liep. Zijn huis ligt kilometers verwijderd van het bewuste strand. Later stuurde Van der S. nog een sms'je naar Deepak met de tekst: Ik ben thuis.

Artice forwrded by Hannie C.
Article Algemeen Dagblad

My Apologies for my bad english




can find.... it`s is from the AD newspaper

What do we know about the head of the polis in that jurisdiction, and of the local government - any info at all?

If they drugged her, they would have something to hide. If this drowning thing were true, it seems PVDS would have gotten it out of them and taken a shot at 'accidental death'.

Well Websleuths fully and courttv to a lesser extent. Are Crime boards with victims rights focus. This is not, this is a news board that is an extention of Tom and Red's News commentary.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but if you are concerned about justice, there are countless  cases  of injustice in your own backyard. What are you doing about them?

O'REILLY: All right. Now, Ed, when was the last time you saw Natalee?

ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.

O'REILLY: All right. So Natalee obviously knew him, then, was familiar with him. And when you saw him dancing with her, that didn't set off any bells. Was Natalee intoxicated, in your opinion?

KISSEL: I wouldn't say so. We were all having a good time. I'd go so far as to say that, but I wouldn't say intoxicated.

O'REILLY: She was drinking?

KISSEL: Drinking responsibly is what I would say.

O'REILLY: All right.

KISSEL: Along with the rest of us.

O'REILLY: Now, did you see her get into a car with Van Der Sloot and these two other guys?

KISSEL: I did not see her getting in the car. I saw her leaving, looked like with Van Der Sloot. I didn't see her getting in the car. You couldn't really see the road from inside the bar, so that is what I saw.

O'REILLY: But nothing set off any alarm bells for you, Ed? You didn't -- you weren't concerned or anything like that?

KISSEL: No. I wasn't personally concerned about anything. From what I've heard, I heard people talk about him and he sounded like a nice guy. So I didn't think any big deal.

I personally had ridden in the car over there. I made friends with one of the waiters. I'm fluent in Spanish, and you know, I was friends with somebody. And so I was thinking, you know, I rode in a car with somebody, she rides in the car with somebody, no big deal. I didn't think about it.

Sorry I'm not sure how to use PM here. This is what I was posting about.

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:52 am    Post subject:
 
sb.. yeah that's what she was wearing that night... I really don't think the shoes thing would help at all... one of my friends realized today that she had picked up someone else's flip flops thinking they were hers b/c she had lost a pair, but now we think she might have accidently stole them from the passed out guy at the pool who followed us back to the hotel! Whoops! Seriously though, we all lost so much stuff down there, any flip flops, even if they had the freakin' spartan crest on them could have belonged to anyone, not just Nat.

Hi Arubagirl, I hope you feel better and that the recital went well!

Do you know if the Texas group have gone to that pond/dump in Noord yet?

There is no more evidence of kidnapping than there is of murder.

So we do have a witness saying Natalee was dancing with Joran. TY.

ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.

This contradicts what other students have said in an interview.  If she planned to return to Hi with the other students then the three boys basically kidnapped her in front of all of her friends.  Then the kidnap victim is seen by still other students hanging out the window of the kidnap vehilce shouting "Aruba, Aruba".  Sounds reasonable.

Are you a reincarnation of a previous poster?

There was a young man on one of the Fox shows who was interviewed along with the young lady who saw her with someone tall with dark hair.

It was the young man who reported Natalee dancing with Joran at some point earlier in the evening of their last night there.

That is one of the reasons I was so intrigued by the report of the scuffle with the cousin, which took place earlier in the visit.

I would think that he would have mentioned it, if Natalee was not present (don't know that she was or wasn't)

<<

But more than that, it establishes he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.

Film clip of PvdS on Fox: He said something like "I want to go home to my wife." The second part I didn't catch.

Me too.  Her input here was great.  Its alot of courage to go on tv, and sometimes it makes life intense when everyone sees you for a minute or two and then debates every move/word for days...nevermind all this here for her to handle and worry for NH.  I hope she takes a break and feels better when she comes back.

How do you know she wasn't just answering his question, "What are you all doing tonight?"

If you're going by the "Deepak" emails, remember that 90% of what he said in those was a lie.

And you don't know she walked out with him. He was walking next to her and managed to maneuver her into his friends' car. Her last comments to her friends was that she was going back to the hotel with the MB kids in front of her. Not, I'm going with him (Joran).

Figure it out.

Actually, her friend Ed, who was at CnC's that night, said in an interview on Bill O'Reilly, that he did see Natalee and Joran dancing together.

Maybe you haven't been reading these forums as much as everyone else, but I've seen people here stating as fact that Natalee was involved in group sex with all three, with no evidence.  This is the sort of absolute bullshit I can't stand.  It attacks the victim and has no evidence for it whatsoever.

That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?

There is no more evidence of kidnapping than there is of murder.[/quote]

Agreed. IMAO

thank you bendex, for the translation

mehill, I don't know if he lied about seeing NH at the HI.

He was held, but suspected of other charges.

bendex thank for the very good translation  i admire your energy

How can one remember something that has not been proved.  Seems more like 90% of the e-mail is accurate.  Again she must have been happy about the kidnapping given that she was seen by students chanting "Aruba Aruba" and saying that she was alright.

Sobelle wrote:



Thanks Sobelle :)  And what I know of Arubian people and the Antilles those people are laughing and enjoying live and are very welcoming,  by the way I must admit a lot of difference in Holland, not to generalize but although part of the dutch kingdom,  the mentality of the people of aruba and the antilles is a lot different than the netherlands. So I can surely understand that people of a lot of countries are coming on holiday there to enjoy the lighthearted spirits and the sun and the drinks and the beatiful beaches and people.... I hop I don`t sound like an ad or something but I mean it :wink:

Again Ted Bundy was a nice guy to a lot of girls too

It isn't an attack on the victim if she was drugged and forced. And more powerful if she wasn't drugged by her attackers.

OK, as you all know if you've seen me do this before her, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.  So, someone did say they saw her dancing in the bar with Joran.  But I stand by everything else I said.  And my overall point is that some of you don't know that she was interested in Joran.  We do know that she told her friends that she intended to go directly back to the HI after leaving CnC.  We do know that she has not been seen since.  SOMETHING is terribly wrong here, and I am suspicious of Joran.  I am not saying I think he murdered her.  I am thinking more along the lines of an accident or a sexual assault.  But I haven't decided.  IMO, he is the most likely suspect.

I think it was very easy for many posters here to forget Dash was a kid, a teenager. She is articulate, smart and loyal (wonderful qualities). However, most of us on this board are adults who have been around the block a time or 2 and are old hats a message boards or blogs. We have grown thick skin, and can give as good as we get. That should never have been expected of Dash or MBHgirl ( sorry I know I have your name wrong). Not one of us would ever let another adult speak to our teenage child in a hateful manner. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

I was just going on what fox new said the reason he was arrested

No but I'll bet he is the only one who is 6' 3" or more.

Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?

I agree with both of you. Well said.

Well and let's get real....he was the last one to be seen with her.  That alone says alot.  (To me at least!!)

Bendex's translation states Deepak received 2 messages after he left Joran - one I am walking home, 2 I am home - is this normal - or is it part of a plan to establish fake timelines?

I really do not understand what difference it makes if NH liked Joran, danced with him, flirted with him or went off with him in his car on her own volition.... Murder does not follow logically in those scenarios!

In my opinion, whatever consensual behavior any woman (or man, for that matter) engages in does not justify any criminal activity against them.

I have seen no indication that Natalee is suspected of having committed a crime, although it does appear likely that she is the victim of one.

Thus, neither her behavior nor her character require any defending, nor is any harm that may have been done to her less criminal regardless.

just a look at my pic shows what those activities can lead to!.  :lol:  No those things does not a "ho" make, it never will. And certainly does not mean anyone who engages in those actions deserves to be hurt.

Tell me bout teen pressure, when I was 15 I walked in on my grandmother with a gun in her hand. Right before she took her life. Should I grab the gun or run for help….I ran…I still remember the look in her eyes..

<<

Actually she was behind the crowd of all her friends as they loaded into taxis.  A car pulled up as they had worked their way up to the curb and it is assumed she got inside it.  What other student saw her shouting Aruba out the window??  Maybe it was a call for help that sounded phonetically like that.  Perhaps her speech was beginning to slur from being drugged or she did not know what she was saying for does not seem like a likely thing to shout out of a window.  But if Joren deliberately guided her into the car, he could have blocked her view of them as she was the last waiting to get into the taxis.  

To what interview are you referring for this has been posted to this forum previouosly?  She said one moment she was returning with "them" pointing to the other students and the next  minute she was gone in the car with Joren.  How would she know if it was a taxi or not?  She did not know the brothers.

But, IF you believe that the emails wonderwoman posted are legit (which I personally don't), it says in there that Joran would not dance with Natalee.  That she kept asking him and he kept saying no.

His whole story has changed from what was in that email. And yet you still claim it's true? Even when he's admitted it was a lie?

Ohh, I agree fully Absolut. I can see this forum is not a victims right focus, rather, I see it as an open forum to debate the case of a missing person.

Bye, everyone.  I need a break from this forum, for the rest of the night anyway.   :wink:  I am really sad Dash left.  Please be respectful of one another, ok?  And remember, this is all theory and speculation. THE ONLY FACT WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN IS THAT NATALEE IS MISSING.  :cry:

Arubagirl..thanks so much for taking those pics today...where can i find them?

Ditto.

Unless Joran is Deepak's bitch, there would be no reasonable expectation for ANY guy to give his friend a courtesy call to let him know he got home alright, unless he was seriously hammered, and had to drive home drunk.

Do you think he received preferential treatment because he is tall?

I think that letter said that she was on the bar dancing with others, and she asked Joran to come up and dance with her on the bar? And he said no. Then she went to deepak and asked him why his friend(joran) wouldn't dance with her....

all speculation that letter from wonderwoman IMO

Katya, it is agreed that we have injustice and justice misplaced.  Whatever the instance you could likely find a blog or website making comments about them.  However, here the topic is Natalee.  If you would like to know what is being said about the other instances of "injustice in ..." our own backyard, please feel free to google a name.  It will take you to those forums.

writenow wrote:




writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do...... :wink:

 

some cable network interviewed one (in a casino) who was there with joran that night whose voice had not changed and would need a stool to reach the tables.   they need them local kids as a draw to attract the senoir trippers to get in there and compete against and fight with the locals challenging them on their own turf.  i bet it is a real loose operation   besides joran was 17 and 9 months something was he not?  they probably treat anybody coming in there to throw their money down a rathole deferentially and joran doesn't have to do anything to get a little extra deference becasue everybody wants to stay on the good side of a judge.  the night in question he was even under the adult supervision of his father.  

the mb kids at 18 are 3 years short of legal age in the us and i do not understand how what is not ok in the us suddenly becomes ok in aruba because it is "legal".   "legal" don't make it right.  our legal drinking age is obviously too high and i don't understand how we got there except that we are hypocrites because they drink anyway and then they are criminals unless they can afford a trip to aruba, cancun, juarez, nogales or Tijuana.

Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.

Right, but at same time please read my opinion with open mind: people are hard on this joran for his attitude towards the hollaways that nite they visited him....he has the same passion that dash does "young and bold", we just don't know the facts in this case enough to know what has really transpired. I have gone back and forth on this kids guilt/innocence 4 times, and until I guess I heard all of the evidence that the prosecution has down there, I will never really know what side to sway to in his guilt.

But given the fact that I am used to our judicial system here in the usa, I have to be 100 percent convinced that he is guilty to believe that he did it.

My heart goes out to her family and I clearly want them to know that I feel so bad for her, they want answers as do we all, but at same time, until this kid confesses or evidence has been presented to prove he did it, I can not stick my neck out and say "HE KILLED HER"

In the promotional materials from one of the companies that package these graduation and spring break trips they specifically say that Aruba's drinking age is 18 but they rarely card.

I'll see if I can dig it up again ...

His whole story hasn't changed.  We certainly don't know with any certainity what his story is.  The police are not talking.  Just about everything in the e-mail up to the point of dropping NH off at the HI has been confirmed by interviews with other students that I have seen on FOX and second hand accounts given by the parents.  I do not recall which two kids said it but she was seen in the car with the boys and was aked if she was alright.  She said she was.  This was one one of the first interviews and is what led me to believe that the e-mail was legit.  The events described in the casino in the e-mail have been cooberated by the students as have events in and outside C&C's.

No I think got in cause he is tall the same way he did at 17 and 0 months and maybe even 16.

Lots of 360-degree virtual reality tours of places on Aruba:

http://aruba.com/pages/vrtour.htm

Does it meqn they deserve to be murdered?

It's a shame we lost the MB poster because of the some of the biased moderating that occurs in here. Any / all defenders of natalee have been slowly silenced by the cries of "troll, troll".

Defend the twitty family's calls for prayers for their daughter hear "troll, troll". The deliberately blind, deaf, and ignorant monkies swing to the high branches when the trolls cry "there's a troll amongst us!". It all sadly reminds me of the McCarthy days.

You sir are a communist...I mean troll...I mean communist.

Please don't feed the hate..to trolls by whatever name. Hopefully the lurkers are distinguishing the differnce between actual opinions and statements of preference/perspective ("my favorite color is blue...Aruba is paradise...Aruba is hell on earth...the butler sweats too much "). Opinions will be shaped by facts & logic, the prefences/perspectives are limited only by the number of posters on this forum.

If gained perspective is so important to the collective mission of the posters here, then you've done yourselves disservice by chasing away the MB 2.

So people run of the folks who might actually know something so they can play amateur detective like they do on court tv?


I never watch it and never plan to.  I teach-- I care about kids.  I care about current events since I teach ap language.  I don't see how some people wanting to be pretend police detectives is justification for insulting a young lady who has been a key part of this forum and who was even gracious enough to give the guys an interview for the front page.

Folks, this is a message board about polics and current events.  If you want a court board where you can cross examine and grill everyone like you are a da, then one of us has the wrong forum.

Look at sign up numbers.  I was here in the recent beginning.  As more people have found the forums they seem to be forcing a shift in the focus.

I don't think it is a shift for the good.

Perhaps that is why our good aruban friends also spend less and less time here.

>>

Not only Natalee but the MB kids themselves have been accused of some sinister cover up and also accused of reading from a script, refusing to give interviews to MSM (their choice, is it not?) of smirking and saying things they did not say.  

I am surprised anyone would defend all that.  No, there is nothing in that to charcterize bad behavior--it just didn't happen.  That is what upsets her friends.  Had it happened, I doubt there would be any denial but since it did NOT, it can be pretty annoying to have people continue to insist that it did when Dash and others know it just did not happen.  No prob if it did but since it didn't, it upsets them to have people insist something happened that did not.  

I find that completely reasonable myself.  What part do you have a problem with?  Are you suggesting they should agree that some things happened that did not just to appease those who want them to have done so?

It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"

I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.

we have more than that we have Ed saying: (OMG! Hell just started freezing over because I am quoting O'Reilly)
O'REILLY: But nothing set off any alarm bells for you, Ed? You didn't -- you weren't concerned or anything like that?

KISSEL: No. I wasn't personally concerned about anything. From what I've heard, I heard people talk about him and he sounded like a nice guy. So I didn't think any big deal
**********

so it seems from witnesses Natalee was at the very least polite, and seems to have like joran. Could she have fallen for a player like many of us do or did when we were 18 ?

Thanks bendex for your translation ,,,,pfff i`m behind with reading again :?

coco:  hurry before the erase it!

Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!

 :( :( :(

...  :shock:

Did you ever kidnap someone and then lie to cover it up?

Same here! I can't convict this guy yet until the LE gives more proof beyond one lie(that is all they have actually given us)

I have been gone for a couple of hours and all hell has broken out. I've only read the last seven pages...not the rest of the section I was posting on when I had to leave.....too many pages to catch up now.

Could someone please give me a quick summary of why Dash left and there are so many posts in defense of the VDS's?? Also any other news that has transpired in the last few hours would be appreciated. Thanks.

<<

I have no way of knowing if he was the only one or not but I did hear several bartenders and casino managers saying they did not serve drinks to those under age nor allow them in the casinos.  

So they were all lying and all 17 year olds are out at all hours on school nights?  They are much tougher than my kids if they can booze and gamble the night away and attend school regularly.

I would let the victims decide the fate of the criminal.

I am calling it a night maby later guys.

Young people today, male and female, all over the world, text their friends to notify them that they have finished flossing.

Of all the purported communications, this one seems to be the least significant.

He either texted him to let him know he no longer needed a ride, or to let him know he got home safely, or to discuss something that happened during the evening.

Without the content of the message, the fact that there was a message is in my opinion, nothing.

No one is banned because they disagree with any certain viewpoint.   Everyone has the right to state their opinion, as long as they keep it respectful to those who might disagree with them.   All bans (and there have not been that many) that I know of were due to attacking people/individuals.   Attacking anyone will not be tolerated.   Neither will attacking the admins/moderators here for doing their job.

Calling people names is considered attacking.  If you have a problem with moderation/banning please PM an Admin to discuss your issue.   DO NOT TAKE MODERATION/BANNING issues to the PUBLIC forum.

Thank you!

<<

How do you know it has nothing to do with the disappearance case?  No one else has that information so what is your source?  Are you claiming to know for a fact that this is not exactly how she came to disappear?

Ting,

What happened to the "we are not Arubans on one side and Americans on the other. We are all brother and sisters united in our mission to ensure justice where justice is due?" attitude of Arubans.

I do not assume that all Arubans think/act the same. Why is it that you seem to feel such blanket contempt for Americans because of isolated experiences w/ them in this forum.

Please do not allow yourself to be pushed to an extreme viewpoint at the opposite end of the spectrum of thought and consider yourself an objective contributer here.

I do, however, appreciate that you do possess and share a unique perspective regarding this case. It is not shared excluively by Arubans though.

Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.

Enough already.

of course not. who said that?   :oops:

The simple theory revisited. oddly the new releases from custody changes this at all.

Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy and his friends (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle with his friends (no idea what she knew)
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.

so the ugly guys who like to be rude have taken over and then gloat about running dash off.

Folks you are not aquitting yourself well.  

Surely I know nothing about that happened there--and most of you don't either.

You besmear the victim and her friends and defend the guys who for sure are lying at best.

Guess you are proud.

Sadly this case will be solved or get old and you will find some other little mystery to go after.  

Dash will live with this forever.

And some of us had hoped to be on this forum for discussion of current events forever.   Right now it is not a friendly place unless you are of the attack the victim school of thought.

I have said repeatedly that Joran and Natalee would have had much in common and I could understand her being attracted to him.  And him to her.

None of that justifies rape or murder it either occured.

Nat could have been the class slut--and it still would not justify rape or murder.

HER character is not relevant if she is the victim.

After the incompetence of the jurors on the OJ trial (DNA too complicated for them to digest), I came to the conclusion that justice would best be served if a jury consisted strictly of a panel of lawyers and judges well-versed and qualified to interpret the law.

I would keep the voir dire component of jury selection.

while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. He saidt the person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok, especially if drinking or if the friend possibly got "lucky" So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.

Icey...I think I can assure you without a doubt IF Joren has something like that to Beth Holloway...he would NOT be in prison right now....he'd be 6 feet under!  Where in the world did you hear that one!  Oh my goodness!!!

And I beleive that is basically how the Dutch system works.

Actually she did give us a lot of valuable info since she was on the trip.  Maybe you should try reading her posts, we learned a lot of what went on and what happened, a lot more than just the she was a good girl stuff we are so used to hearing.  Again it is not that people are questioning her character it is that they are doing so with the evidence set against them, and also that they are questioning parts of her behavior that are totally irrelevant to the case.[/quote]

Amen to that.  She did give us a lot of information and she did it willingly to support trying to figure out what happened.  Let's get real people...all you have to do is respect her and each other.

Their is something that is well said.

<<

I don't follow.  What does this have to do with dealing with other injustices in our back yard?  Are you saying you think the blog should take on all those other cases as well?  Isn't there a general news blog for that?  I thought this one was just about Natalee.

Good observation.  We are all back to square one.   We still have 3 suspects who have changed their story as many times, if not more.

And they're not talking...so there has to be someone else here...or else we need to admit these kids commited the perfect murder, and their first (as far as we know).

That is an odd interpretation of my post, to say the least.

I have noticed some interesting and widely differing views from Americans themselves on the US justice system.

I sincerely regret if my curiosity to explore those views further displeases you.

I was unable to locate any reference to Arubans in my post, which adds even more interest to your reading of it.

Why is there neccessarily something "wrong" with this?  Joran calls Deepak and asks for a ride.  Joran starts walking.  Sends a text meesage 40 minutes later saying thanks for the ride (sic), I'm home now.

You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.

In a previous post, I prefaced by saying, there would be no reasonable expectation for ANY guy to give his friend a courtesy call to let him know he got home alright, unless he was seriously hammered, and had to drive home drunk.

I hear ya clevefan, and also agree. But, joran is being held as a suspect to several major crimes. Dash and her friends are not, they are not suspected of anything. joran is.
I agree, I am vacillating on what is happening here in this case. Just when I think I have a handle, something comes up that blows my theory out of the water. I would have to have beyond a reasonable doubt to convict anyone of anything. But that is not the issue, not yet. The US system does not ask us for 100% certainity a crime was committed, the bar actually is " a reasonable doubt " not any doubt. That is the law.  :D

wow...at 15 i don't know what I woud do

1. Steve Croes and Paulus van der Sloot released from jail/prison today.
2. Lots of Joran's & Kalpoe's friends and family on forum. They have been in abundance the last couple of days.
3. Read the last 7 pages of the last forum to get an idea why Dash is never coming back to post again. Number 2 group taking pot shots at her, MB kids and at Natalee.

but other than that, welcome!

I've been off the board for a few hours....could someone direct me to where the reference to the email between Joran and Deepak came from?? Is this an offical email or a speculation? Thanks.

Edit....sorry text message, not email.

Dash provided extremely valuable insight because she was there. She was posting her perspective and opinions. She has some first hand knowledge, which most of us do not.

I'm appalled that she did not receive more compassion.

 

have to disagree with the every night. we don't know that.  he was there for some contest on the night in question and won 4th place.  any mb'sr in on that one?   maybe joran was doing the same thing the MBers were doing, letting their hair down after an intense year of study.  

maybe he was good at it, maybe they were letting him win to please the judge  we don't know how much he played for but there are so many casinos in aruba i seriously doubt that all the players are high stakes.  aruba is a low end destination for the most part.  that why they have to market to groups of kids, not your most desireable segment.

Article in Birmingham News this morning--Holloway's Friends often Blame Themselves
 " More than a month ago, before the fateful trip to Aruba from which Natalee Holloway still hasn't returned, a group of six Mt. Brook teenage girls put on matching silver wishbone necklaces, a sign of their lasting friendship.  "Natalee still has hers," Mallie Tucker said on Saturday, wearing her wishbone necklace along with a yellow ribbon and bracelets that show her support for her missing friend. "We just get together and pray" said Frances Ellen Bird, also wearing her wishbone necklace at a concert to raise money for Natalee's family.  "We can't wait for her to come home."  Byrd was at C & C the night Holloway disapeared.  "I never saw her when she left," said Byrd.  "It was closing time and everyone was leaving."  She said Natalee was with Joran as early as 9:30 pm the night of her disaperance before leaving with him after the bar closed at 1:00 am.  She said it was hard to keep track of all the 124 MBHS students as they left the bar.  "I don't blame anyone," said Byrd. " Alot of us feel personal guilt " said Milner Owens who was on the trip.  "People are trying not to re-live it.  I wish we had all done something.  We've all learned a lesson from this.  We've changed.  Life is altered.  Beau Barron, also on the trip remembers being at the bar with Holloway that night and wonders how it could have turned out differently.  "Its always in the back of everyone's mind."

You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?

Okay, I don't get the Aruban LE's move, and to me they seem either wholly inept or completely driven by the desires of the Holloway family. Can someone help me understand this better?

They take in the father on suspicion of kidnapping/murder, some very serious allegations.  48 hours later he is released because "they didn't have enough evidence" to continue to hold for suspicion.  One Aruban official states that it was a move to make the son speak out.  Now, is it just because the US does things differently that I see such a problem with this mentality?

They either took him in because they were bowing to pressure and bringing him in for false reasons-- in which case they acted unethically and damaged his reputation without cause -- or they brought him in too soon without building enough of a case against him and jeopardized their whole case, IMO.  Either way they look bad.

Quickly arresting and releasing him does not release him, or themselves, from suspicion.  Makes it greater, and is cruel to all parties involved. Now the Holloway family's hopes of a speedy resolution appear dashed and Mr. VdS may very well have suffered irrepairable harm for no good reason.

Do you think they confuse the American desire for resolution and closure with bloodthirst and a willingness to accept ANY person prosecuted, even if they're not guilty?  We don't want people dragged into jail without good case. That's not going to help anything. I truly don't get the Aruban LE.

On behalf of an American if I made a comment on a foreigner, how I noticed they behaved on vacations I would be called prejudiced. (Even if I stated a fact.)  I think this is a problem of the youth not only "American" youth.  :cry:

Ting,

please accept my apologies...upon looking back, I realized that I had replied to your statement after having streamed it together w/ a statement by another poster (statements were unrelated) in an attempt to read quickly and keep pace w/ the posting.

Second time that's happened to me this week...lol, I promise to be more diligent from now on.

All he had to have was a couple of dollars.  If you're even an average poker player you can double it easily.

what if deepak said to Joran when dropping him off.."hey bud, text message me when you get home, so I know you made it"

Info comes from Satish's lawyer.

Compassion? This forum isn't about compassion, it is a theory and speculation forum where anyone can say anything no matter how unfounded it is.  It doesn't matter if you insult a victim with no credible evidence, because that is your opinion and all opinions are valid.

selling porn videos and drugs/x  ???

Thank you, I appreciate the info.

There could be another meaning to "he made it home OK".  I'm trying to be delicate here an I'm in no way meaning to slur Natalee's reputation.

He was playing for about six days in a row that we know of, for hours on end. Again, WHERE IS THIS KID GETTING HIS MONEY? There's no way he's winning tons of money every night. NO WAY.

Link to album: http://arubagirl.typepad.com/photos/nh/

I really wanted to take a picture of Holiday Inn pool area, as well as the beach there, but I'm not kidding when there was not one freaking parking spot.

For Red, it's very hard to take pictures of the Cruiship area, as the whole area is fenced

scarlet, it is not a problem it is just how young people are in this globalized MTV world and the more money thay have the more thay can partake.    :wink:

no problem, KoG, they come thick and fast and the reason I forced myself to learn to use the quote button is because I could never remember who said what and to whom I was actually replying!  :)

Anna wrote:



Watch the beginning 'Katya friend of Joran"!

That`s what I meant b/c some people have another opinion it doesn`t make them 'friends'with a supposed suspect! She only stated her opinion... Oh by the way I don`t know Katya also... :D

guys aren't girls.........this was quoted before he read it and what he meant would be more normal would be if the guy at home was calling the guy walking checking on him, especially if walking guy had been drinking, or had a chance ( as my aw shucks nephew said) gettin lucky, Other than that why talk or text that time of morning. This is a 19 yr old's view not mine.

That's my question.  Why would any guy friend have reasonable concern to know that another guy friend made it home safely, in, of all places, Aruba (the nicer section of the island, at that)?

Obviously, there could well be other reasons explaining the intent of a text message or call.  I made the comment I did because it was suggested that Joran was contacting Deepak for the purpose of putting his mind at ease that he got home OK.

Totally agree with you here, Scott.

how do we know he has no job? My 13 yr old umpires baseball games for 20.00 per game, and prior to that he had a paper route. Who's to say this kid doesn't get an allowence for chores? Also, if he is a good poker player, with the 10.00 buy in, he could easily make 150.00 in winning a tourney that consists of just a couple of tables full of people. He is very good in math according to his grades, and that could make him a very good poker player

I always call my friend when I get home after I dropped her off and vice versa.

Don't know if guys do it.

ARuba Girl


Your home is beautiful.  Such a lovely place.

My understanding is that, in the Dutch system, there's no jury, but one judge, alone, who renders a verdict.

Catriana,

I'd also like to apologize if you felt I attacked you. I thought DT was a moderator. Still, my comments towards him were not direct. {edit: this issue will not be discussed publicly.  READ YOUR PMs KoG.   Any further comments will be made there}

Thanks....great pictures!

I just washed 6 of my son's shirts - all variances of blue and white plaids.
 :shock:

(collective laugh - I thought we needed one!)

and I thought Iquitos was just being paranoid! All the student spring break/grad trip travel sites that were very informative about Aruba a week ago, suddenly do not send trips there!

So... from the travel info site of "Aruba Rentals" (Luxury Condo rentals) at http://www.arubarentals.com/vacationtips.htm

on their "Travel Tips for Aruba" info page:

Legal                Drinking/Gambling Age
             
The legal age for both drinking and gambling is 18 years of age, however, this law is not widely enforced.


http://www.arubarentals.com/vacationtips.htm[url]

Does anybody know if Geraldo will be sent packing tonight and Greta will be back for the week night? I found Geraldo to be totally insulting to Natalee's mother and step-father.  And who really cared about his sailing??

Geraldo is no Greta!!

This is horrible for them, and only human for them to feel they could have done more. They were not dealing with elementary school kids here who will walk in single file. These were teenagers out to test normal limits. Living their lives, and a monster stepped in cutting one lovely life from the fold. I pray they find her and bring her home

If he waived his right to not testify on his son, there must be enough evidence to where they will have a trial.  I figured the LE had done blown the case.  They have now ruined 4 peoples lives probably.

What! When did you attack me?  I dont remember seeing anything directed at me earlier from you.

It's true that 3 other of Natalee's classmates died over the past year, 1 in a car accident and the other 2 by suicide?

PS - Don't blame me... the thread title is "Rumors"   :?

No way. I'm not buying it. Just prior to and just after Natalee's disappearance, Joran spent at least 15-30 hours in casinos in a six day period. That's a lot. And you're not going to convince me that he was winning all the time.

And you can't "easily" double your winnings. You can more easily lose -- A LOT. Casinos are set up for the house to win most of the time. That's what keeps them in business. Oh no. Wait. EXCEPT when it came to Joran. That's right. Then it was set up for HIM to win because he's da man.

Please. Not buying it.

On second thought if they want to keep Geraldo they can. :D

Charlotte, thank you for the post showing us just a glimpse of what it is like for Alana and Natalee's numerous friends.    My heart aches for all of them.  :(

we're looking for the truth but you can't talk about this, that, or those....

Scarlet, no thanks. :)

 

thanks aruba girl for the pics.  are you smog?  nice pic of mikkie dee parking area but thankfully we can scratch Paulus off the list of now.  i bet he will avoid that place from now on.

Why do people always try to deflect focus on a subject by trying to bring in every other evil or wrong doing as a reason why someone should not be so concerned? It's like we are trying to talk to a 3 year old child.

As a matter of fact I have done a lot about "justice in my backyard", with some of my effort resulting with individuals serving lenghtly jail terms for crimes they thought they "got away" with.

This board is focused on Natalee's disappearance and those who have incriminated themselfs. I don't care about any other crimes against humanity when it comes to the resolution of this case. This is the only case. Any watering down of focus will result in further disrespect of the victim and the possibilty that the criminals will go free.

icey





Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?[/quote]

Katya, it is agreed that we have injustice and justice misplaced.  Whatever the instance you could likely find a blog or website making comments about them.  However, here the topic is Natalee.  If you would like to know what is being said about the other instances of "injustice in ..." our own backyard, please feel free to google a name.  It will take you to those forums.[/quote]

Thanks Arubagirl for your hard work in taking these shots.

Do you know if they(LE) have thoroughly checked fishermans hut?

inthepacifc, they did

While Joran obviously frequented the casinos regularly, I doubt he was a high roller.

He seems genuinely ecstatic in one picture where he's holding up a mere $70.

Most likely, hanging around in the casino is an easy source of free drinks for these island kids.

<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.

I am a poker play, and believe me, you can get a bankroll built up if you are good

IMVHO absolut....with this information we can not say where the "guilt" lies.  Too many possibilities....swimming in ocean - drowned, kidnapped - still alive, kidnapped - murdered, accidental death (boy).....

So I don't think the "guilt logically falls" on anyone given this set of facts.  Evidence is needed.

Wow - Thank you arubagirl - I'm sure we'll be referring to these often while we post.  These are awesome.

You know what...I was trying to be respectful of you and put it to you lightly...but I think you just like to argue.  I'm done for the night...I can't deal with people that can't accept other's opinions.  And like I said before...you know nothing about poker.

The pictures are great, thanks for taking the time to do this for us.

It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"[/quote]<<

He said it while pounding on his chest, not exactly normal behavior for a 17 year old addressing an adult.[/quote]

Does this indicate to anyone else that something happened that was out of his control?

hmm ...   not widely enforced ...   why judge van der sloot should be ashamed of hisself

I think you are reading into this text message too much. I've got 2 boys. I don't find this alarming in anyway and could I could find my boys following the same sort of thing. NO biggy to me Scott.  :roll:

Thank you! I actually put the 2 pics of the beach on my slide show screen saver. Those were very insightful. Dash said the Marriott looked close and was the distance was easily walked. I bet if Natalee did ride to the lighthouse on that dark road, she had to be scared to death. Note I said if.

Arubagirl---anything on the dump in Noord?

it would have been mentioned by now. We know where Steve Croes works, we know where Deepak works. The press would have discovered where he worked if he had a job.

oh yes it is, especially of todays kids

Maybe he thinks he's Tarzan, the monkey man!

I'll buy that as a good point. Thanks.

KoG...  READ YOUR PMs, PLEASE.

As a matter of fact, it does. And that he is upset about the something.

It sounds more like the way one teen would respond to another, as opposed to an older person.

I can't claim to know how Joran normally interacted with adults, maybe that is how he is accustomed to address the parents of his friends and acquaintances, or it could be an indication that emotional stress caused him to forego courtesy.

Didn't go to Noord, there was a political rally, and the traffic was stuck.

For some reasons all political parties decided to have an event today.

Arubagirl thank you so much for your dedication and work! Great pics.  Now if there's any worries about security in the future, just suggest that LE post their cops up on those big things where the reporters are. One on every corner, with camera!  <j/K> :)

This is correct.  One senior boy died a couple of months ago in a one car accident.  (alcohol involved).  A sophmore girl hung herself--unknown if it was accidental or suicide.  A junior girl also hung herself--this one was a suicide- she left a goodbye letter.

I have not heard BT say this, but my wife contends that she did in an interview about 3 weeks ago. Perhaps it was taken out of context, but if true, it's probably one of the reasons why BT believes jvds is guilty of something. Perhaps I can look thru the videos on-line.

icey

you don't know that, heck we don't even truely know if he went to school next day

I like the "opinions"and speculations here. On the otherhand while I`m new to this blogs... Maybe i`m too sensitive about it all. I`m not used to this so maybe I sound defending or something, but I still am behind my opinion, but I sense some 'executing'style of bashing people... correct me if I`m wrong I`m only dutch and not used to slender people who i`m not certain of IF the commit a crime, certainly if I see no evidence for that effect. I`m not used to this 'mediacircus'also which most of the people here are used to b/c I understand it`s common in the US if a case is importent or has 'good'rates for the channel. So let me suck it in for a while , but I honestly don`t think that I ever going to like this media and people bashing thing. But I am certainly glad that I`ve found this blog b/c it`s a new way of state your opinions for what i`ve  seen I kinda like that fact.


And don`t get me wrong my heart is to see see natalee found safe and if the ones who are in jail are guilty, they must pay, but if they don`t are guilty , or only by stupidity thru lying then the court , the media and the folks here that thinks or feel they did it b/c 'they feel it' must let go and accept that fact, I hope and think!

you don't know that, heck we don't even truely know if he went to school next day, he's a minor

 

now, to know somebody spent 15-30 hours in a casino somebody else had to be there too.  i have said it before, you can't have it both ways, logging joran's time at the tables.  why were the mb people focusing so on joran.  they fought with him, the formed opinions about him and hea had not even done anything yet.   were they jealous?

Greta reported that Joren did go to school in her timeline. I also have to agree with the original post....everyone else's employer seems to have surfaced with the press...why would't Joren's employer if he had one?

Then just absorb what you like, and discard that which you do not.  No need to challenge or attach those with whom you disagree.

Joran is supposed to be a darn good poker player. I doubt that he would have any problem having someone there front him some money for a % back. The casinos might WANT him there to interest other young players to join the game.

Yes we do - and yes he was there.  However, Satish was not.

Please don't ask where this came from, as it is O-L-D information...but it is in another thread on this forum.  Maybe if you do a search, you'll have some luck.

I don't know how Joran could have a job - he was an A student, he was involved in sports, and he was in the casinos constantly.  He barely had time to maintain all those websites he was on.

I keep going back to J's statement "I didn't hurt her".  It bothers me for some reason.  Or it could be another one of his lies.  Any speculations?

Joran was graduating.  In this country at least the custom is to give gifts and many people give cash.

My allowance was $60 a month at that age. Maybe he also got one.

arubagirl, just looked at your pic's.............beautiful! And thanks!

great pics, thanks.   It is still beautiful.  I will need to find out which timeshares exchange with the clubs I belong to.  Maybe some day.

wwizard, I can't imagine. That had to make you stronger that is for sure.

<<

Hannie,
You have Natalee's frantic parents coming to Joran's house less than 24 hours after their daughter is missing. And what do Joran and Deepak do? They DELIBERATELY lie and TAKE THEM BACK TO THE HOLIDAY INN lying all the way and DELIBERATELY FALSIFY where they say they left her.
These were CRUCIAL hours when the TRUTH needed to come out for a young girl's safety. Yet they kept lying and lying and lying.

I am appalled at the people who defend the irresponsible, hateful, cruel and heartless actions of people like that.

Pinemeadows, thanks for that comment.  I needed that "humor" right about now.

ArubaGirl - these photos are awesome! thank you so much!

There seems to be a lot of development on the island - is this a new development?

Also, you mention the political parties all being out today - is there an election coming up?


and finally, can we all come visit - I could use that beach view right about now!

It is more than just that.  They lied and incriminated other people who they knew were innocent.  I just dont see that happening unless they had something to hide.

KOG.. READ YOUR PMs.

OK thanks. I just wondered if the Texas group had been to the dump/pond yet? Thanks again for those photos. Simply marvelous, dahling!  8)

about the pictures, the one of joran pretending to strangle (ugh) someone and  the one with the cash.   that looks like school play stuff to me.  BTW on the night in question he was playing in a texas holdem contest, won 4th place.

Folks

This discussion board is taking a turn for the worse in tone. I am goign to make this post short and sweet , and expand on it later.

Please be polite and respectful to the moderators and your fellow posters.

That is all I demand, but that is something I absolutely demand.

Tom

Probably an obnoxious jerk

Hannie!

Welcome to the our world - not very pretty is it? hyperbole and rants take the place of reasoned thought all too easily - and asking questions when the party line has been decided is not well received.

I think the heat is particularly high today because the judge released S. Croes and PVDS - and there are a lot of people who were convinced that they were the devil incarnate - or at least drug lord white slavers. Their release threatens the "we know precisely what happened" view and makes people who are holding on to that certainty distressed.

Coco, in three months there is going to be an election, where twelve parties are going to be vying to be the biggest party. Those are going to be three looooong months.

I think all parties had an event today because campaigning season started officially on Thursday.

Hannie C, something I learned being on this board is "geduld is a schone deugd". (Patience is a virtue)

Hey ag...thanks so much for the pics.  Helps so much to be able to picture things.  And while the fisherman's Hut beach is fairly close to the HI....I find it really hard to believe the area could be seen from the HI at night.

This is because according to the article in De Telegraaf, Joran has been seing a psychiatrist for some time now because he is short-tempered.

http://www.hasibokos.com/hbknews/default.asp?view=day&blogDate=6/11/2005

Don't you guys think this is even a little interesting?  Seriously, from a mostly lurker, some of your arguments are getting older than dirt (how much money does it take to pley poker in Aruba, who insulted who, why dash left, blah, blah, blah).  

Face it...by now you are just arguing with one other person that will never be pursuaded to your side so give the rest of us a chance.

trying to catch up.. thank you s mch for the photos.. they are awesome!!!!
AND thank you for the time that you have spent on this forum keeping is up to date and taking out your own personal time to take the pics!!!
HUGS to you!!!!!!!   :wink:

Something for everyone to think about:

The Aruban justice system can arrest people on just the slightest bit of suspicion without any real evidence, so, is it possible that there could be witness(es) that saw something the night of Natelees' disapearance but are afraid to come forward for fear of being involved and for fear being arrested?  I find it so strange that there is not a single witness!!

Some of the theories posted are a little more far-fetched than others.  It seems that people think they are all equally valid since there is little supporting hard evidence for any of them.

However - there are probabilities.  

If Natalee disappered at her hotel - strong possibility someone from MB is involved.  

If Natalee disappeared on snorkeling trip - strong possibilty people on snorkel trip are involved.  

If Natalee disappeared while in a car with Joran, Deepak and Satish - strong possibility they are involved.  

If a child is missing - look for a pedophile

If an elderly person is missing - presume they have Alzeimer's and wandered off

If a woman is missing - husband/boyfriend is top suspect

If a woman on a date is missing - date is the top suspect.  

If anyone missing, last person to see them alive is the top suspect.  

That is why Joran is the most likely person to implicate in this case.  The other theories have less credence.

I agree with you yet again HannieC.   :)   You said it better than I ever could.

ArubaGirl - wow. twelve parties!!!

Are any of them using the Natalee case in their campaigning - law&order statements or don't bow to US stuff or any of that?

I could easily see this becoming a factor in elections if it were here - are you seeing any sign there?


and I noticed you didn't confirm my reservation for a beachside visit! :wink:

Just check out what the dectectives are saying

Much of what you say is true, but, what is still not known is:

PVDS & Croes release = apparent non-guilt  --OR--
PVDS & Croes release = failures by Aruban LE to collect enough evidence on those that have true implication in Nat's disappearance

Could someone who is on the ground in Aruba please direct Geraldo to a reputable wigmaker?

I know what you mean writenow, but on the otherhand, if I hear JUG the come with that whole bunch of friends in the middle of the night! I saw jug and his statements by the way, so I can surely understand why people are react this way if they are sound asleep an suddenly in the middle of the night there are a bunch of people at your door commending and seems threatning you think; What the f###! Sure I understand it I would do the same if my daughter was missing you`re absolutly right maybe i would do something other than that also( hey I`m dutch) But I sure can understand what the reaction of people can be for that affect, And don`t forget JUG says on tv that Joran said to his dad"I want to help dad"!

No need to get personal there, ya young whipper snapper!!!!!   :(

Sorry for replying to an relatively 'old' post, but I don't think I'll get through reading the rest. Joran is most likely not the only 6'5" teenager on the island. Dutch people are the tallest on average in the world. If I'm wrong, go ahead and correct me - I was informed of this by Dutch friends.

As a matter of fact, even the mixed people in Aruba are taller than average, if you have noticed from the TV appearances.

The reason I'm saying I may don't think I'll make it through the rest is that I can't believe what's happening on this message board. Dash may not be the only person who is run off the board.  It's like people are dividing into camps of I win/you lose, I'm right/you're wrong. People, put things in perspective here. I like absolut's simple theory - it brings us back to the original reason we're here: Natalee Holloway is missing and quite possibly dead.

I'm going to keep reading Tom and Red's blog reports, but it gets tiring and draining to see people bashing and attacking each other, seemingly for ego or self-aggrandizing purposes.

Happy monkey'ing everyone. Take it easy on the moderators - it's a thankless job and they are doing a fabulous job of giving each and everyone of you the opportunity to voice your opinions.

Just check out what the dectectives are saying

what detectives?  the ones from the States?

Coco, they're not using NH blatantly yet, more criticizing the current government for statements that they made to the press.

But not like: "An American girl disappeard, throw this government out."

I'd be appalled if they used her for political purposes, but I wouldn't put it pass them

Not much is being said about American citizens in general, but a LOT about American press.

That reservation will only be made if there is a room for me too :)

Speak for yourself.  Mine certainly do NOT behave in this manner, especially to an adult female.  For one thing, they know they could never get away with it but that was never a problem for Joren, apparently.  I have one 6'3" and he would show respect for the girl's mother or wish that he had.  And wish it deeply.

it was in the aruba paper on on this board a while back.. I am  not going back to look

The reason I'm saying I may don't think I'll make it through the rest is that I can't believe what's happening on this message board. Dash may not be the only person who is run off the board. It's like people are dividing into camps of I win/you lose, I'm right/you're wrong. People, put things in perspective here. I like absolut's simple theory - it brings us back to the original reason we're here: Natalee Holloway is missing and quite possibly dead.

I'm going to keep reading Tom and Red's blog reports, but it gets tiring and draining to see people bashing and attacking each other, seemingly for ego or self-aggrandizing purposes.

It does get tiring and draining, however most folks here, whether on one side or the other, do mean well and do want this case to be solved.  I think if there's little more focus on agreeing to disagree, things would be far better.

When I read the news report that Paulus was released and had waived his right to not testify against his son, I was at first pleased because I concluded this meant that progress was made in the case.  My question concerns Aruban law.  Does Aruban law allow for bargaining (for lack of a the correct or better word)?   I only am familiar with American law, so I inferred from the announcement of his release that Paulus had struck a "deal" with the prosecutor to wave his right to not testify in exchange for his release.  Is this incorrect?  In my opinion, this would be a step in the right direction for Law Enforcement.  This testimony, which must be truthful and supported by the facts and forensic evidence, could likely be significant in the case.

heeeeeeeee, chortle

Batten down the avatars!

You are in for it for sure now, and God help you if there are any Masai lurking around. :D

My apologies   (written big in case your eyesight is going)

 :lol:

<<

BHT has said it several times and Jug was standing right there and yet is supposed to just tolerate this.  Seems in keeping with the rests of his lifestyle and the different parenting techniques.  But if I allowed my son to behave like this to adults, I would also not wonder why he required anger management classes and kicked his brothers, etc.  Doing so in front of his parents unrestricted.  Oh, no, just your typical 17 year old, no special treatment going on with Joren.

OK, hate to do this, but...can someone give me a brief synopsis on the latest news?  

I heard earlier that PVDS waived his right NOT to testify against JVS, and that Croes will be let go tomorrow.  Anything else new?

THANK YOU!  I really would try to go back and read, but man...two small children...dinner...bath...bed time...you get the drill.  NO TIME!

K

ArubaGirl - that's good to hear (about not using the case as of now)

I imagine the US press are a pretty weird experience! I know that folks here in the states comment about how awful it is to have them camped out on a big case.

Are the hotels like the HI and Marriot booked mostly with press these days do you think?

<<I know what you mean writenow, but on the otherhand, if I hear JUG come with that whole bunch of friends in the middle of the night!>>

Do you think that if Jug and his friends hadn't stopped by in the middle of the night, then Joran and the Kalpoes would have told the truth?

Dash-
If you're still reading comments, I'm truly sorry that some people have run you off... :(

We don't know that they have, or that they have not.

Not to intrude but they all went to Holiday Inn, why did they go to Holiday Inn Again? I know at one point they went to the casino, with Paulus looking for Joran, then Joran called said he was home, they all went home right?  I am missing the second part of going to the casino againg what for?

Coco, I'm guessing that they're mostly in the Holiday Inn, since there is where the family is also staying.

As I was taking pictures at the lighthouse, there were two groups of people with very professional cameras taking footage. I said 'good afternoon' and they looked a bit spooked like I had caught them doing something bad. Had to laugh at that.

Did LE not state Pvds was taken to jail only to put pressure on Joran...why would LE lie...2 days is not  "pressure" really either!!  IMO

Read this article if you are a friend of Natalie’s.
"The Rothchilds of the Mafia on Aruba" (http://www.tni.org/archives/tblick/aruba.htm)
It details information about the Aruban government relations with the Mafia...gives some enlightening information about the powerful Mansur family who controls 60% of the island and owns a shipping company as well as other industries on the island.  I would also Google Mansur and Aruba as well as the Mafia and Aruba. When the brother of the FBI agent said this case was much bigger than people were aware of, he wasn't kidding. Who was the guy on the plane sitting next to Natalie who did not use his return ticket...There is most likely a lot more to this case than Aruba wants you to know about...
See also this article(http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/undocs/session67/view883

don't know how significant it is, however,  as more and more people come up with rumors, accusations etc.  the topic becomes more and more heated.  

The issue worth noting is that BHT has not varied her request since the very beginning.  "They (meaning the boys in custody) hold the key" and "give me my daughter and I'll go home>"

I am not sure I have even heard her say that the boys are lying.  I may be wrong.  I know reporters and other ask her that question and she merely replies that the boys need to tell the truth and that they have the key.

This has not varied since she arrived.  We on the other hand have stretched the imagination until we have been drawn into a "black hole."  It is difficult to close out the day and begin anew.

What has happened to the theories????? Have we moved to a lower rung and decided this blog is for arguing ?
 sorry....I guess we are all frustrated   :(

ArubaGirl,

1) how many huts are there at the Fisherman's Huts?  

2) do people still stay in them or are they abandoned?  

3) Could we see the Tattoo in the shot from FH to HI?

4) Are all of the huts separated from the Marriott by the trees?

Thanks!

Yes, we do.  If the police decided to detain them, they have not.  If they would get 2 versions of the same story, they may wonder about the 3rd.  But 3arlier this week, it was said by either Ruben or Rudy that they were each giving different stories...or something to that effect.

Actuall I read it to be very plausible an reenactment of the pictures at that time of Abu Garib, prisoner treatment of the insurgent/combatants.

:D  :D  :D  :D  :D

You're question appears to imply that Jug and his friends convinced Joran and the Kalpoes to lie.  Am I interpreting this correctly?  I don't think that fear of Jug and his friends would convince these three people to lie to the police in a murder investigation.  Their motivation for telling lies is unknown, but I believe with a certainty that it was not fear of Jug and his friends.

There may be more to this case than a long list of countries, US included, wants you to know about.

I think we need to get ArubaGirl press credentials ...
and she could scoop all those MSM types with their hotshot cameras!

honestly - your pics give me the clearest sense yet of the locations we've been talking about!

<<

And his own mother said he said he was "going to kick natalee's butt" so does he have violent tendencies other than kicking his brothers?  Fantasies about choking people?  Odd poses, lots of them.

I just want to say that the photos Arubagirl took are SO gorgeous....Aruba is such a beautiful island especially the beaches and the water. WOW. I've been to several Caribbean islands and I have every intention of visiting Aruba for a beach trip. So pretty!  :!:

I pray for Natelee's family that a resolution will come quickly. Of course, I pray for a happy one, but I would hate to this case go cold and for nothing to ever be found...I feel so bad for Amy Bradley's parents and all the many other parents of missing children who never have the peace of knowing what happened to them and bringing them home.  :(

My thoughts exactly

Dear Dash,
Should you by chance still be reading, I hope you can see how much you are valued by many Monkeys.  So much trauma for all.  I know your friends will all help each other through this.  Sorry you got overloaded.  One important thing to remember about grown-ups is that they aren't perfect.  You've had an in-your-face chance to see that and I know it hurts. Please know that many people have come to care deeply about all of you.  You've been a splendid representative for  MBHS and Natalee Holloway.

Later I can't wait to seee Arubagirl's pictures.  But I am going to  put aside the computer,read the New York Times and make sure the rest of the world is still turning 'round.

dutch bag and slime brothers  show where thay droped natelee to her parents   I thinks i remember that right

IMPORTANT MESSAGE to ALL POSTERS!

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PLEASE CHECK YOUR MESSAGES REGULARLY for Admin PMs.

Thank you.

Now back to our regular scheduled program.... !

I just got home a bit ago from picking up my son from his dads house, and having a sweet sixteen party somewhere in between for my oldest girl. Seems I always am away or on the road when something happens.
So, in trying to catch up with the news and posts I take it Mr VDS and Steve C were released or will be released soon right? Any other news? Unfortunately I dont have access to a TV to watch any news updates as my children and husband have taken over all 4 TVs in the house  :roll:
Any updates and such would be much appreciated.
Thanks!  :D

Many of the first-hand accounts indicate that Natalee was seen leaving C&C in a car with three people.  Do we know with certainty that Natalee was left in the company of one (or two) of the three (as opposed to all three) after leaving C&C?  If not, then Joran is not necessarily the most likely person to implicate.

Not necessarily. With so few facts, we can only speculate why anyone has been detained.


 

And any could be true, or not true.

Guys and gals sorry i`m not holding up with the speed you are going...jeezzz you are fast..... :lol:


Coco thanks, I like the fact that you seem to be open minded.....
arubagirl thanks for your effort to take all the picturec( wich I don`t have seen yet but they are in my favorites.!!)

sobelle thanks for also being open minded, it`s very nice to see that a lot of people here still have an open mind...

Scott you also think with your mind a lot i see ...

And iquitos your`re a sweaty I don`t know you but you give also a lot of input,,,,


And the rest also.... I like the fact that all the opinions are made with compassion wich side does`nt mather it is not about sides here it`s about Natalee bringing home!...

exactly! I have said this before, my son would not have to worry about hitting himself on the chest, because I would be doing it for him if he spoke to the parents of a missing girl he was last seen with, no matter what time of day they came to the house. T is 6'2" and 205 lbs, I brought him this world, and as the old saying goes, I can take him out........or at least make his life miserable for a few minutes until he came clean. If he was involved in something bad, he would have to face it, I would see that he faced up to it.

I agree with WVLADY and ANNA. Losing Dash is a huge negative for this forum ... even if many are in denial of this fact.

Luna, There is one more building similar to the picture that I took. They're not really used for people to stay in them, just for fishermans to store their gear etc. About the seperation from Marriott, to a car they are seperated by the Marriott wall, so you'd have to drive past the marriott completely, and take the next left. The beach is not really seperated from Marriott by anything, if you wanted to, you could walk from Marriott until Phoenix (first highrise hotel). No, you can't see Tattoo, it's moored at the Aruba Grand hotel, which is the third hotel rise I believe, and Marriott is the last.

Hi monkey friends


Walked the dog , could not resist thinking about the natalee case

some questions,

1) was there a statement from the MB hig scholars that most of them spent  a good deal of their last night at the beach near the mariot ?)
or is the beach near the Mariott occupied by other people at night aswell.

2) Is the mariot beach on the east or  the west side of the island ?

3)  Who was the last person who natalee spoke to before leaving C&C

4) why would Joran sent a message saying he is walking home was he  expected to be picked up by one of the kalpoe brothers.

we don't want to be in your little group anyway

joran, deepak and parents went back to HI that same night/morning the Twitty's first went to the VdS's home so joran could show them where they "dropped" Natalee off ( lie 1). As a matter of fact, daddy VdS was made to leave the lobby because he became so obnoxious and loud

Hi anna ,

I hate to admit it but , lots of teeners have bad manners in my opinion , well that was my vision of them when i lived in Amsterdam in 1998

Bendex, the Fisherman's Huts beach as well as the beach in front of Marriott are both on the West side of the island.

I often go driving there with my friends late at night after the movies / going out and there aren't many cars there. The local 'lover's lane' is mostly at Eagle Beach, which is about 2 miles before reaching Marriott.

<<You're question appears to imply that Jug and his friends convinced Joran and the Kalpoes to lie. Am I interpreting this correctly?>>

I think the three detainees decided to tell a story that ended with a Holiday Inn dropoff, and they would have done so whether or not the VDS residence was visited by Jug Twitty, Conway Twitty, or Scritti Politti.

Thanks arubagirl....just trying to get the lay of the land!

So did Deepak and Satish voluntarily go to where they knew Natlaee's family would be?

Or did they just happen to be there when the family arrived and freely acknowledge that Natalee had been in their car?

<<

We do know they have changed their story three times so I would say that we do know and they did not for this is when they claimed to have taken her to the HI, something they themselves now refute.  So I think we pretty well know they have not told the truth.  As to whether or not the current version is true or not, in American law if a witness is caught lying about one thing, the entire testimony may be considered susepct and juries may take that into consideration and reject it.

I have no way of knowing if there is similar consideration in Dutch law but this is how many of us have been trained to thing about people who lie in life and death situations.

What facts do we have that would invalidate this theory?

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party and he took Natalee off from the 3 guys.
3. The 3 guys get pushed out of the party.   Now what do they do???  Yikes.  They lie.

And Hannie. How did Joran HELP her parents? By lying to them and DELIBERATELY taking them to the wrong place.
A parent gets very frantic when they think their child is in danger. Why can't you understand that? You think having someone yell at you in the middle of the night is WORSE than fearing your daughter is injured or dead????

You're right. This must be a cultural thing. Because I can not for the life of me understand feeling it's more upsetting to be "yelled at" than to have a daughter missing in a foreign country.

Natalee said to her friends as she left CnCs she wanted to go back to the HI. Joran manuevered her into his friends' car and didn't take her back to the HI. What does that tell you?

Arubagirl - Fabulous fotos. Look like postcards to me.  Maybe I missed it but what is being built across from C&C?

 my thoughts too

<<

Ah, that's it.  Bet your're right, the little chap is just making a political statement.  And pushing the kid through the plate glass, was that yet another interpretation of some current event as well?   :roll:

Hey Arubagirl,
Looked for you today...hoping for the Monkey "Shout Out"! Thanks for all your hard work on the photos though!!

Ting - I think only Deepak was at Joran's house when they talked to the Twitty's.

I'm a bit confused by the accounts since BTH said Joran was rude but Jug said Joran wanted to talk but Paulus and Deepak were telling him not to. I believe Jug said in a Fox interview that Joran said "I want to help" and also that he wanted to help search.

That led me to take the comment to BTH about "what do you want me to do" as a bit of desperation - since by I think Jug's account Joran went over to the car where Beth was sitting after the exchange about "don't talk" - and that he was saying sorta - I wanna help but my dad and best friend are telling me to be quiet, what do you want me to do? I can easily see how that would sound to Beth given her terror  but I also think that so much of what we hear "said" in this case depends on very different states of mind amongst the parties when they heard the things said.

Dudley, an ugly hotel. Idiot politicians

So by that reasoning, any and all stories they tell you could reject as lies.

But you cannot know whether any of them are true. You may have an opinion, in fact that is what this discussion is about :)

Maybe you believe that story B is true, and someone else just has a hunch about story C, but neither of you can know for sure!

The Twitty's came to joran's home, he was not there, dad said he was at casino, they drive to casino--joran not there, Twitty's go back to VdS's house, joran and deepak leaning against deepaks car. When asked if they had seen Natalee they began the first lie of dropping her off at HI. I suspect dad called joran and told him Americans were looking for him, so joran and deepak had time to get themselves together before Twitty's got back. If the boys had not done something wrong, why did they come up with a story at ALL, even before the Twitty's came to the island. This is one of my biggest problems with this case right now.

Teenagers have bad manners when their parents don't teach them to have good manners.

At this time, Joran, Deepak and Satish all agree that Joran and Natalee were dropped off alone together at the beach near the Marriott.

wantanwers wrote:

[/b]


Excuse me if I`m wrong here.............but what group? The people who have there own opinion which you don`t like? Sorry I find this very disturbing you make it very personel now b/c other people have there own opinion......

Release of Paulus Van Der Sloot looks political.  Don't feel like holding one of their own in a jail cell?  And if Steve Croes lied to the police, why can't he be charged with that?

If they did do to an underground party, how do Joran's attempts to contact Deepak (2:30am call, 3:15 text msg) fit in with that theory?

They are about to interview two friends on Fox in just a few minutes.

Do we know who these two friends are going to be on Fox?  Re-run perhaps?  Sorry I was caught up in the Food Network! :lol:

Now that you've read the articles provided about the Aruban economy, turn your attention to even larger issues, narcotics funded terrorism:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/NarcsFundedTerrs_Extrems.pdf

Yes, this is a bigger problem than first imagined.

 

editorial:  somebody said the art of politics is knowing how to talk in a way that convinces people who do not agree with you.  few are good at that.  mostly we are comfortable with the ones who agree with us.  Politicians nowadays concentrate on holding the base and trying to draw the few undecideds and the fringes from the other side.  Rarely do they actually go after the middle of the other side.  Too risky.  That phenomenon is magnified on a board such as this and nobody wants to back down until one side or the other walks away.  personally, i have often felt like walking away from here.  yesterday morning was particularly oppressive and i am sure i contributed to it.  the poker analogy fits perfectly, when to hold and when to fold.  nither point of view has been adept at that.  However, we keep saying people have gone away mad only to see them reappear for a another day of lively debate.  I hope the offended will be back.  the lines are drawn on this one however and i don't think one point of view or the other can expect converts from among the active participants.  They participate because they have strongly held views to express.  Without them there would be no posters.  But maybe we are helping some of the non posters understand the issues better.  

Question:  Does anybody have the whole telegraaf article in Dutch?  I tried the link but it is a whole page and type is too small to read and i don't feel like registering.

LOL I am a bit confused by them too. What I am trying to get straight on is that neither Deepak nor Satish were "fingered" by anybody, nor seen on cameras with Natalee, so the first knowledge that the family had of Natalee being in their car came from Deepak himself.

I think it has already been established that no one actually saw her in the car with them, there are reports that she was seen in a gray blue Honda but that did not come out until the family had already been in Aruba for a while.

Hannie, I think it was a joke or sarcasm, about your post with the compliments to specific posters. I don't think there was anything bad meant. At least that was the way I took it. :D

The Food Network!  One of my favs, along with the cable news. :)

New interview with two friends/aunt on fox now.

Lots of you claim that "we know they (3 boys) have changed their story 2 times" we do not know that for a fact. We have heard from the authorities that the 3 boys have changed their story, there has been non statement of how many or to the extent to which their stories have changed. Antyhing else is pure conjecture. I am seeing lots of convicting these 3 boiys for chaging their story. I dont know about you but kids do BEND the truth. I can see where Joran didn't want to go into exactly what he and NH did that night on the beach(if they did n anything at all). But from my perspective kids are kids, while we can debate as to what level to hold them accountable for changing their story, convicting them of murder is a STRETCH.
 One side can theorize that the boys didi not know for fact that NH is dead but just missing, and then the other side theorizes that they knew she is dead. Both are just that THEORIES.
 And in my opinion if you disagree with someone then you aren't trying to run them off the site. I have yet to see anything really terrible on the boards this afternoon. I have seen some scarcastic remarks, which I think were warranted when the news came out about the releases of the 2 men. One person said maybe they ought to go round up mrs. VDS and intimidate her into submission. The justice system is VASTLY different from Aruba compared to the USA.  NONE of these 5 would be in-custody at the moment in America. And all of you know that to be true. mayeb the police would have held Joran a few days but at this point even he would probably be let go. And Purposely arresting the Dad to put pressure on a 17 yr old boy is something that i dont agree with. If this had been doen to say a Terrorist you can be gauranteed the MSM would be calling for the current administrations heads. So lets keep this in perspective....Do you honestly think a 17 yr boy could hold out for almost 2 weeks of intensive interrogations, with the threat of exposing his father and possibly every friend he had?

GuyWdog

landscaper, you're right.  Let me try again:

1. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Now what do the 3 guys do?  Yikes.  They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?

LOL, same here.  They are going to announce who will get their own food pilot show tonight LIVE!  (If you've been following) :lol:

KackyLacky, I couldn't agree more.  I also have one about that same size, 17 yrs. old.  If I visited him in the jail and he told me, in tears, that he didn't have anything to do with her disappearance and that when "all the truth comes out" that he's going to "kick her butt for causing us all this trouble" (or something like that) (which he'd better not say!), I would be telling him, in no uncertain terms, that he obviously knows what happened and he'd better come clean!  If he saw her being kidnapped and his life was being threatened, I would tell him we would move Heaven and earth to protect him, but he needs to tell the truth.  If we need to move to Outer Mongolia to protect him, we would, but he has to tell what he knows.  I'm so hoping the kidnapping story is true.  I would so much prefer that scenario, as I think does Beth.

"Underground Party"  Sunday night, school night, small island with 100,000 people on it, International School as 9 kids in a class.  Not likely, and if it was people would have known about it and the kids would have squealed already.

 

whateva but can you imagine this bunch of monkies on a jury!

Deepak and Satish also had time to get themselves together, go WHOA! in unison, and remove themselves from the situation entirely, catch a boat or a plane to parts unknown, paint the car, push it off a cliff, burn it, whatever it would take NOT to acknowledge that Natalee was ever in their car at all.

In fact, I would expect someone who had participated in a violent crime to go to extreme measures to avoid the scenario you describe.

writenow wrote:





Maybe writenow but I`m sure as **** I don`t blame somebody if I see no evidence, that must be a "cultural"thing then if you would like to think so.
I have an open mind about everything b/c we are not a jury or a judge or the executioner, we`re here about speculation, opinions an theory`s I thougth, but then again I could be wrong b/c I`m not used to blogs, if i`m offend you`in any way i`m sorry for that it`s not my intende to do so.. :wink:

Hi dallas,
The only thing I can see that might not fit here is IF joran did call deepak and tell him he was home at what was it 3:40 after leaving her at the beach. Dont after hour parties generally last longer?

good point....
wwizard first posted she was gone from aua within an hour...
wopuld that be 2;30?

yes I do....  I do know of many youth and adults who have never admitted to crimes.  It is unfortunate but true that many proclaim there innocence even after being convicted.  Under the Dutch system, I have no idea how they handle this.  Or even if they can convict.

whateva but can you imagine this bunch of monkies on a jury!

We'd be hung jury monkeys :)

<<

Ain't it the truth!!  And mine know it.  No anger management for them, I can manage their anger.  Parents should have some modicum of control over their minor children so I can only assume the VDS approve of this kind of behavior.

 My next fav slogan is eat it or wear it, too! Bet you have used that one a time or two as well, am I right??   We what raises boys has to hang tough sometime but I can honestly say none of mine have ever disrespected me or any adult in my presence.  And will not and live to tell about it.  You go, girlfriend.  Some of us know wrong when we see it.

Somebody lied - in fact, they are all lying (yes, we know this because the stories keep changing.)  Steve - I don't know how they can justify releasing him.

Who knows about PVDS....the whole world knows he has allowed sonny to gamble and drink, and pops is the escort.   Yesterday he was suspected of complicity in premediatated murder (it doesn't get much more serious than that) - and today he's a free man?  How does that happen overnight?

So yes, it could be political, or it could be SIMILAR to a plea bargain...there may be more pressure on Joran with his release, than with him in there.

Mr Wizard,
With the latest develeopments, are you still standing by your original theory?

trying to get caught up here.. Whats up with Dash? Did she get pissed off for some reason and it not posting anymore????

So do the VDS' go on the Abrams report on MSNBC to put their story out?

HannieC,
I dont post much as you can see..lol
I just sit back and read ALL the FACTS
CAN I be in your little GROUP...lol  :wink:  :wink:  :wink:

Copy and paste the text into an e-mail or Word document and increase the font size.

HannieC,
I dont post much as you can see..lol
I just sit back and read ALL the FACTS
CAN I be in your little GROUP...lol  
Absolutely :)  Welcome!

Angie,
I do know that some posters accused her mother of just seeking notoriety for Dash? That one shocked me....

Ting I couldn't agree more. Exactly what one would think. Or simply deny. But they didn't. They implicated 2 innocent men, and continued the lie. What if she could have been found one way or the other in the days they were lying to LE? The bros kalpoe even told a variation of the lie to their mother. WHY?  This is the problem for them, the lies.

Bravo!  Well said GuyWdog.  I'd also like to address the "let's boycott Aruba" factor that has been brought up before.  If tourists boycotted America because of unsolved crimes, I'm afraid we'd never have any tourists.  I am so sorry that Natalee is missing and I pray for her safe return, but from what I can tell, this all happened because a teenager made a bad decision.  We can not blame Aruba for that.  If Natalee had left a bar in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Los Angeles, etc. with a boy that she had just met, the same thing could have happened in the U.S. and I'm sure it does all of the time.  Again, this is nothing against Natalee.  I've made the same mistake several times in life.....even at the age of 27.  I was lucky and nothing happened to me but it could have and it would be no reason to blame the entire country.  We should blame the individuals responsible for whatever happened to Natalee and not focus on hurting the entire population of Aruba.

Kerin!!!! I was going to ask for a repost...could keep the nite interesting.

Kerin - you got to it before I did!  I was wondering about that myself this evening.

Wiz...what say you? :wink:

RB,
If you happen to "see" Absolut  :lol: , please tell him I am still sticking with our "simple theory" from a few days ago.

I agree with that.  So, ok, this isn't a party of International School kids.  But from an earlier post (about 10 days ago), these parties do exist and they are illegal if they are held without a prior permit from the police.  It has to be a party that Joran knew about, not the brothers, since this theory has the brothers dropping Natalee and Joran off.

Let me please try again, and keep shooting at this theory if you would:

1.. Natalee and 3 guys leave CnC and head to one of those underground parties.
2. The brothers drop Natalee and Joran off at the party and head home.
3. "Something bad happened" - there was a nutcase at the party (maybe it was a party full of nutcases) and one of them took Natalee off from Joran.
4. Joran gets pushed out of the party.  Joran calls Deepak for help at 2:40.  Deepak says no, I'm not getting involved with your rough friends, you handle it.  Joran walks home, then text-messages Deepak that he made it home (maybe that is a coverup text-message, one for the police to find later?).  Now what do the 3 guys do? Yikes. They lie.

Please, everyone - what facts do we have that invalidate this theory?

Cerulean, I completely agree with you abt the underground party.

somewhat, sort of, kinda.....have entertained another one but its not very flattering

<<

This is to bad manners what a grain of sand is to a boulder.  Far and away beyond the pale and do not even pretend he was awakened from sleep on a school night for that was just never the case that he was sleeping, ever.  Yes, lots of teenagers have bad manners but most parents to not stand by while their giant of a son pounds his chest as a mother whose child he was the last to be seen accompanying.

This is enabling his anger problem and yet another dimension to his privileged life.  It is just not acceptable by any standard, no matter how low.  It is a form of violence toward a woman, very atavistic and primative beyone belief.  See why gorillas do this for further explanation.

Did fox cut off the end of the MB kids interview?

Dallas Also, my problem with the underground theory is this: If you're talking about a large party (100 kids), it would have come out. This is a small community. If you're talking about a smaller party at somebody's house (30 people) I could buy it.

Pine and FOM,
I bet a lot of posters don't know the "WIZ THEORY". So Mr. Wiz, please re-post would ya, please???  :wink:

But one thing you forget ... they had the Soul Beach Party that evening.  I don't know that much about it except there were several big name acts there and loads of people attending .... where did these performers and their entourages go, the security and "groupies" that go along with it, possibly even people visiting from neighboring islands for this bash?? Did they all just pack up and go home immediately, or did they stay on the island that night?  Don't you imagine there were a few parties?

I'm not really addressing this specifically to you but just to anyone in general.  This has not been discussed much.  I am very much suspicious of some connection to this island event.

I keep posting it :)

Absolut - I think it's going to be very interesting to see if either Paulus or Steve Croes talk to the media. I had the impression when the VDS did the interview with Greta that they had watched the media uproar, felt like a lot was said that painted a specific picture of their family and son and so said "guess we gotta play the media game too" and since the time spent privately with Beth and Greta was apparently not a media ambush they agreed to Greta's interview request - and then were sorta stuck in the "you talked to fox, you better talk to us too" game. I'm thinking they may decide to stay away from the media circus now given the outcome of the last time.

Anyone else have a guess on this?

He's right here :)  He's gonna post back to you

I'm not going to ask what an "underground party" is and what goes on there.  That'll just illustrate how out of touch I am with modern society.

So instead of reporting this abduction, they decided to lie and say they dropped her off at the HI??  Yeah--right!   :roll:

How about, they go to the party and she meets up with a bad crowd, tells Joran to leave her there and he does and then shes missing. he left her there then lies because????

I think lots of you EQUATE the Arubaian Interrogations as to the smae that would happen here in the USA, from what we are seeing. The Arubaians are MUCH thougher and much more intense. Joran has now for almost 2 weeks being interrogated 11 hours a day in extremes of cold hot and WHo knows what else. They even brought in his dad to Threaten him. That would NEVER Happen here in the USA. If you quote me please dont take my words out of context...thanx.....I am leaning towards these 3 boys had nothing to do with NH's dissappearance. I can't believe that a 17 yr old could hold out this long. I dont think I could(but I have a conscience). and I dont know these kids and no one here does either. Debate is good but let's keep it honest and not twist anything around to make our theories look better. Just the Facts. please...


GuyWdog

Jessesmom, I'm fairly sure that the people who stayed for the final event also stayed the night. There are very few flights that leave Sunday evening.

My thoughts from the beginning,,,after a ruffie and something bad very well could have happened..

Wiz,

Please don't back down on me now! I saw that theory posted so many times I almost had it memorized. Come on...say it isn't so!!! Changing stories?? Well please share.  :wink:

The security guards were staying in the same hotel and there had even been an event at HI from 9am-3pm on sunday before the Big concert. MB students have never said that they saw any of these guards in their hotel.

You know, I could believe this except for one thing...  There's just no way Satish and Deepak would say "okay, mum's the word" and sit in prison for THIS!!!  For a girl they didn't even know...and a new acquaintance (Joran)???

Never.

nothings happened to negate it

There was no official Soul Beach After Party that night as there had been for about three or four night prior -- at least that's according to the soul beach website. But that's not to say that groups of people weren't partying somewhere -- or lots of places.

I knew I liked you for some reason, Absolut!!  :wink: (shhhh...don't tell RB though)

At least you recognize the distinct possibility that Joran could be a conscience-free sociopath.

That poster was a total whack job.

 YIKES.. I wasnt aware of that Kerin.. Thanks!

you probably have been to one when you were a teenager, but the worst thing was putting peanuts in your cokes, smoking cigs and maybe a beer! LOLOL.............now it is liqour, ectasy, acid, whatever! Usually at an all adult house, or a home where the parents are gone.

Just wondering if any lab results regarding possible DNA or any tenable evidence whatsoever has been recovered? I know they are not supposed to say...but this is ridiculous. If they have any hard evidence, like blood and such...why can't they say?
JMO, but they need to rule people out, seems like they are doing just the opposite, for all we know the whole thing was botched.
Do they use things like Luminol? Are they digging  up everything? Polygraphs really need to be given to all involved.
Otherwise, I think we are headed toward no resolution and the poor family leaving without ever knowing what happened.

'Underground party' just means illegal party- no licence to sell alcohol, usually held in a place not licenced or fit for such an event, word of mouth advertising, more drugs than usual, etc:

I don't agree with the underground party theory- If there was one, Natalle would want to go with her friends from MB & other kids in the club would have heard about it (including many from MB)

Geraldo at 10pm
NOW

Hey Bob - me too.  But my imagination is running wild.