Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Why don't they say they found the body and make joran think they actually did and then see if he says anything that might incriminate himself. That might be an easy way to make him talk.

interesting wonder if they are allowed to use this method

The best way to get an egomaniac to confess to a murder is for interrogators to imply to the killer that they believe it was the victims fault and that she must have done something to provoke the attack in the first place.  It makes the murder think that everyone is one his side and that his actions are justified.

Unfortunately in this case the killer has probably been properly coached and feels the interrogations are nothing but a game that hes willing to play to win.

I'd have to say "Let Beth and Jug and Dave and Robin" at em!!! I think they could persuade him to answer some questions. Especially if he was taken out of his surroundings. :wink:

I'm feeling a lot of anger today, so here are my thoughts...

Let him know his brother is going to disappear and will never be found.  After that, tell him his mother is going to commit suicide and that his father is going to have a heart attack.  When or if he ever gets out he'll be all alone.  Not a soul to turn to for help.  He will have no means of support or support a structure.  No one will want to be his friend or his lover.  Casinos and bars will never let him through their doors.

He will have and will be nothing.  Let him sleep on it and then give him a newspaper with headlines of a missing v.d. Sloot boy.  

I would think the threat alone would be enough to break him.  Obviously nothing is working so far.

What are we saying, if this was the U.S. the victim family would not be able to interrogate the suspect.

He got to confess on his own accord, you can't force it.

Let's face it. Aruban Authorities, FBI and Dutch Experts are interrogating the three guys I'm positive they used all the methods in the book. Even the truth serum is allowed in Aruba....It's strange that they haven't cracked them yet....leads me to believe that there is something more to this case.

Didn't Joran mother say the boy is soft, don't like to get dirty, something like that. One of the quards released said he was crying in his cell. It is interesting that he has not confessed.

mmmmmmmm wonder if LE can lie/trick suspects in Aruba like can be done here. Note---I am not saying I think our LE having that ability is wrong---I would bet it has solved a lot more cases than we can ever imagine. Aruban LE could tell joran his dad confessed to hurting Natalee and see what he does/says then.

This might not work if, say, she was burned with the MacDonald's trash, and he knows they were lying... if he is truly sociopathic he wouldn't even flinch.

There are plenty of "methods" available to use while interrogating this youth. Methods that would have him confessing to the assassination of Abraham Lincoln if they wanted it.  However, I think it would be a damned shame for the police to use some under-handed means that would be used against them by a sleazy defense lawyer at a later time and the suspect walk.

The possibility also exists that everyone is zeroing in on the " flavor of the day"..If CNN or Fox was to leak a story that Mickey Mouse had something to do with this, somewhere, someone would want to kill the mouse and ask questions later...

Personally, I dont think enuff of the story has surfaced yet to make some of the theories that I have read here and other places a reality. You just witnessed the fact that the Police didnt reveal alot of the info on the BTK killer until he stood up in court and pled guilty himself, so I am sure that the Police havent told the Press all that there is to tell about this case either...

Throughout history, the media has ran stories that made people look guilty when they werent. I dont think the father (Paul) running from the press makes him guilty of anything other than not wanting the negative publicity..on an island that is 19 miles long by 6 miles wide, this is a major story and the media is as hungry as the sharks that surround that island and will feed on anything that looks like a story..especially one that the public will manipulate and stay tuned for more..

Who do I think is guilty?  Simple...........I dont!

I'm not privy to all of the facts and evidence in this case and quite frankly..I find it somewhat disturbing that anyone could sit around hating or declaring guilt on someone, by using 3rd and 4th hand information...

I'm sure that "whatever" happened will come to life soon enuff and some of you may be surprised at just how far off base you were in your theories....who knows?

Wow, finally someone who is making sense!!

wolf, your post makes a lot of sense. I certainly would not want any underhanded or illegal tactics used either. But I also wouldn't think talking to a prime suspect as if he was a 3 yr old works either. Just because these boys have been detained, does not automatically make them guilty in my book. There would have to be a lot, and I mean alot of other questions answered and evidence shown.

My main basis for thinking joran should be a suspect at this time is that he and the bros kalpoe were the last known and witnessed people seen with Natalee. Then one has to add the lies told by the 3. I am only talking about the lies we know about.

Are they being railroaded, possibly. If that is happening, the Aruban prosecutor is certainly doing a serious disservice to her own citizens, much less to an American. By tying up time and resources on these 3-5 people, the "real" suspect is getting away with God knows what.

No matter what, there was no need for the lie told to the parents. Even if the boys were scared that first night, and told the lie, they could have done what millions of other teenagers have done and come clean with the ONE lie. Instead, these 3 implicated 2 innocent men. Why would they do this? Just to cover their asses because they were out late. That defies common sense.

You are right, one day the truth will come out, one way or the other, either in the next 5 minutes or in 20 yrs. It will come out.

As far as believing whatever TV says about this case, what else is there to go on right now? Nothing, because there is no transparency in the Aruban system, and that is their choice.

I would think that when a 17 yr. old hangs out in casinos and drinks..there aint much fear of him being treated like a 3 yr. old by anyone..especially the police..

I respect your's or anyone else's right to "suspect" these individuals and any other's that come to life in the days that follow..my main hang-up is when any suspect is widely viewed as guilty due to the fact that they run from the Press..or " just look guilty"..or drink at the age of 17..or even worse..have had their picture taken with numerous girls...

One of the main problems with this particular case is that it is in a country where the American Authorities have absolutely no power..yet it is being displayed daily on American TV..where the rules of engagement are completely different..resulting in undesirable comments against the Aruban Authorities and the Aruban people as a whole..which is as unfair as it is unfortunate...

As for the lies of a 17 yr. old...American 17 yr. olds can and will lie just as bad if not worse...they will change their stories and lie for friends..but it doesnt make them guilty of murder..you will likely get to see these 3 go home soon..which will cause a flood of emotions and more vicious bad mouthing of the Aruban Authorities and it's people will surface..further clogging up the information channels and steering away from what is most important..finding Natalee

You're right..there is nothing else to do but watch it on TV..I suggest taking their reports with a grain of salt tho...

Why? ..When the 3 lil boys went missing in New Jersey and you saw all of the news reports..how many people posting on here guessed correctly that they would end up being in a car trunk..that close to where they went missing?

My guess would be...None!

THANK YOU! It's one thing for Natalee's distraught and emotional family to have their suspicions, but, it's quite another for the media to broadcast the amount of propaganda against  people who are suspects, not defendents, and nowhere near convicted for a crime.

There's not even proof of a murder yet. What if Natalee is alive somewhere, taken by a totally different person, with nothing to do with the van der Sloots?

But, I'm sure the van der Sloots have bullseyes on their back, because even if they get off the hook, some vigilante will see them as desirable targets, since the public has already tried, and convicted them by Greta and her cohorts at FOX news. It's a disgrace.

Then, why would they lie??  Better yet, why would they lie and implicate a few innocent people?  It's not like a lie to expain why you were out past your curfew...or a lie to explain why you crashed the family car.  This is a lie about a missing person, compounded by another lie from other parties trying to cover up for the first one, on top of final lie from someone completely voluntary to cover for a "friend".

I agree with many followers of this story in that the most damning evidence that would lead one to believe the suspects in custody are responsible is the initial lying and the attempted implication of innocent (and, coincidentally of lower economic class) persons.

Just my 2 cents,

Strike

Did they point the finger at those two by name, or simply "A" security guard?  Not even TWO guards... why did they both get picked up?

It's not my belief that they lied about "anyone" specific..it was a general description of a security guard...as KV just stated..they didnt point out particular people...

Why would they lie? Hell, why does anyone lie?

 You mentioned..."innocent" people referring to the security guards that were arrested and later released..let's really stir things up here now...what makes you think they are innocent? Is it because 1. They said they didnt do anything..2. Because the Police released them...

Then why arent Steve Croes and Paul Van Der Sloop just as innocent in everyone's eyes? They said they didnt do it..and were released too..

I havent seen nor heard of enuff evidence yet to declare anyone guilty of a crime..that isnt certain as of this moment...to have even happened..

You may want to prepare yourself for the hard cold reality..yet to come..

KV- You brought up something I have been wondering about. How did the authorities decide to pick up these particular security guards? Especially, since at least one of them had an alibi to say they were not even at the HI at that time. I have never heard an answer to that question. I also never heard that the boys named these guards. If it was just a general statement that they saw a security guard helping her, what made the police focus on these two specifically? I dont get it.

I thought they already did that on their first night on the island. Their attitudes, while understandable, are far from helping things.

I know you are probably not gonna like it, but I will try it anyway ... ;-)

Have you thought of the possibility that Joran van der S. maybe has nothing to do with the disappearance of NH ?
No confession, no evidence, no body.

Just my two Euro cents ...

OK, for arguements sake...

If this was the case, why would he need to lie about the facts surrounding the last time he had seen the missing girl?  Why involve others in that lie?

Wouldn't have just been easier to just tell the truth initially, no matter what anyone else thought?  Even if it meant initial suspicion on his part, it would all check out later, and his innocence would have been proven.  Now, he's placed himself in a position where as even if he was not involved, he's word regarding such has been damaged...

He has placed himself in somewhat of a position alright...

that could pay off in big bucks if he is playing his cards right...a once in a lifetime oppurtunity..

If he is either innocent or guilty but it cant be proven due to lack of evidence..this 17 yr. old kid could be set for life with proceeds from books..movies..talk shows...

Hell like it or not...the media has made him famous now...If I were in his shoes..and I knew I was innocent but the Police thought I was their man..I'd play it to the hilt..I'd lie..I'd change my story..and whatever else I had to do to stretch the book (that would be written later)..out to at least 12 chapters..I'd even dedicate the book to U.S. Media for making me as big as they did...

Knowing that the judicial system works about as well as a $2.00 WalMart product..I'd prolly give my child the same advice about saying nothing..a 17 yr. old can get in deeper with the more they say..especially when suspicion is already lingering...

Joran is a very small avenue in a very big investigation...dont hold your breath waiting for more to come from him...

True. He made it very difficult for himself by telling two stories. That made him suspicious to many people. His father Paul does not have a clue why he told the story about the hotel.



I guess you are an export about this legal system :-D

One of the main concerns is that there is so much information without a good background about this system. One of the most frustrating things is, the police does not say that much to the media during any investigation. Unfortunately that will feed more and more speculations in the media as we now can see ...



I wouldn't put my life on that. Life is full of surprises ... ;-)

What a relief to finally hear someone express the possibility that Juran could be innocent.  We have been convicting him without knowing all the facts.  It could be just like they are telling it and that is why they can not BREAK him.
They picked her up.
Juran and Natalee were left off on beach.
Satish and his brother went home.
Possiblity that Paul VDS discovers Juran missing from home.  Phones him, Juran tells him he is at beach.  Father gets furious and tells the little idiot to stay there and goes to pick him up.  Juran calls Satish to tell him he has a ride home.
Natalee walks back to Holliday or stays on the beach. Or goes swimming and drowns.
Juran goes to school next day.  Brags about his new conquest.  Headmaster finds out girl is missing.  Calls mother and tells her to tell Juran to shut up.  Father calls Juran and tells him girl is missing and he is the last one to see her alive.  He is in trouble he had better keep his mouth shut.  Juran concocts tale with friends to cover their asses.
I have a hard time beleiving that a 17 year old could commit a crime and function the next day.

It doesnt take an expert of the legal system..in any country...to know that a 17 yr. old is no match for full grown seasoned investigators..I would venture to say that most parents would have their 17 yr. old say nothing and let their lawyer do their talking for them..

True .... but there is something I forgot to mention. You may think that a lawyer is allowed to say anything about an investigation for his client, but that is not the case. With many investigations a lawyer can only give some brief information to the press. There are even situations (maybe that is the case with NH) a lawyer is not even allowed to give any information at all. All information is kept secret to avoid information will flow to people who may be involved with the disappearance. The police do not want to expose the information they now have.

I am new here so if this has been mentioned please excuse...
Our justice system is very different from Aruba for sure but it saying that it is legal for the police to lie to a suspect in hopes of getting a .confession..I am pretty sure...
Also the tacitc of presenting different scenarios to a suspect and giving them something to think about or possible out for the crime they have committed is used all the time here in the US.
Also I believe had the boys been questioned and held sooner the public would not be so outraged at the Arubin authorities.
Not to mention the chief of police who is related/god father to one certainly lends to the blief that there is a cover up.
I do not blame the media for creating this kind of doubt ...it is the authorities themselves and the way they have handled this case from day one.
I am sorry to say I also believe had not Natalee's mom come to Arubia nothing would have been done ...."just another missing tourist"..I think would have been the attitude.
In saying all this I believe in my heart that she is dead and it may have been an accident and that the boys went to Joran's Dad and he told them
what to do to cover their butts.
There is no reason whatsoever for them to have lied and changed their stories if they were indeed innocent.
They would have been believed IMO if they had told the truth ...we all know now, because of the video, that they never brought her back to the
HI.
There would have been no need to have told that story except that they were trying to blame others for their crime.

I see what you are saying..that is pretty much standard practice in most countries..the lawyer gives brief statements and advises the client throughout the process..but is not allowed to discuss any of the details of a case...he /she is also there to insure the questioning goes along within the clients rights..

I just think it is better in most cases for the lawyer to be present before any questioning is done..whether it be in the police station or the livingroom of the Van der Sloot's home..and with all due respect.. Natalee's family should not have been a part of ANY of that questioning...at either location..it is a police matter

I would consider them too attached to the missing person to even be allowed to go to the Van der Sloot's home upon their arrival in Aruba..it seems to go against the grain when it comes to proper procedures...seeing that the police was with them..one would think the police would have made them stay far away from the investigation..or even the early stages of one..

They could have done more damage than good...

I agree 100%.

Schout bij nacht Karel Doorman's legendarische laatste woorden toen hij de geallieerde vloot de Java zee instuurde om de Japanse overmacht te confronteren en suicidaal de ondergang tegemoet te varen om de vaderlandsche eer te verdedigen

MOST 17 yr olds COULDN'T function normally after committing such a crime; however, remember Sarah Johnson - the 16 yr old girl who was recently found guilty of killing both of her own PARENTS with a shotgun at close range (http://www.courttv.com/trials/johnson/)?  There are those individuals who are fundamentally flawed in such a way that science has yet to discover the genesis. In her case, and possibly JVDS - if he's in fact guilty - this is called ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER. Sarah Johnson was 'normal' enough on the surface to fool everyone at home and school and was known as a good student with friends - like Juran. However, underneath the surface was this raging alter-ego that rendered her capable of committing the most heinous crime, which she coolly denies responsibility for to this day. I'm not saying JVDS IS guilty, just that if he IS guilty, APD would make some sense out of his current demeanor as we know it.

JMO,
Traveler

O'Reilly refuted this last night on tv and said he had studied up on it.  He said the only time the attorney can't say anything is if the case is being tried before the grand jury.

What I cannot figure out is why the two black men were so quickly arrested from the false story told by Joran and Kalpoes.  There has to be many black security guards on the island.  It seems to me that there were other people in on this made-up story.  The police should question anyone that gave evidence against these black men to determine if they know the truth about what happened to Natalee.