Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

There is no link in the old thread to connect it to this one.   :shock:

 :lol: Thanks, I added it now

Klassend,

Walmart has vendors come in Tuesday to set up new book displays. So, check Tuesday at your Wal Mart.

Joran / Knife / Plate Glass Window

June 05 article at RWV - Back when Dan's credible sources may actually have been so.

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/06/joran_v_d_sloot_1.html

Interesting that Joran includes a similar story in his book, where he actually does put someone through a plate glass window, an unnamed *friend*, who proceeds to flee the scene. Police are called -and do nothing- in both stories. The following part Joran leaves out...

"In addition to the hand to hand confrontation, one employee of the DunkinDonuts has claimed that they heard Joran v d Sloot threaten the American tourist with a knife."

I will, thanks Kermit

Wasn't there a report that Joran assaulted a girl at CnC with a knife?

Since no one was able to make the connection (and I'm surprised, everyone must be having and off day) I will.

North Korea has no money. Zip, Zilch, NaDa! Unless you consider them printing OUR currency a free foreign aid program.

They print the money using equipment available to only a few countries in the world. (And no, I do not know how they or the Iranians got their hands on it, I think that is a big question). This equipment to produce money is very high tech and used by only a few governments. The Iranians have somehow got the same equipment. They also print 100 dollars bills and when Warren Christopher was Sec of Defense he declared it an act of war. So know you know how and why Bill Clinton made Aruba a target all the way back in 1996 or 1998. (I forget which year off the top of my head).

I also, believe that the US Treasury also produces all the Aruban Florins. So they like money that is not counterfeited.

Back to the connection.

When the North Koreans flip the switch on the printing that's just the start. The fake money is then stored until there is a lot of it. Like a few hundred million. Then the fake money needs to enter the flow of commerce.

They need an accomplice willing to distribute the money. Enter ARUBA and their corrupt banking system.

After Aruba gets the money, they exchange with North Korea a percent. Aruba may receive 15 percent or more. Possibly as much as 30 percent. Could be as high as 50 percent.

100 dollar bill - counterfeit.
-50 given to Aruba 
-50 given back to North Korea in CLEAN AMERICAN DOLLARS -  THE REAL ONES THEY GET FROM GAMBLING AND ALL THE OTHER CROOKED STUFF THAT HAPPENS ON THAT ISLAND.

The clean American dollars (the actual real money) goes into building the North Korean Nuke Program.

So, North Korea basically declares war on the USA by counterfeiting out currency and that currency the gets moved around in the Aruban banking system (Banco De Carribe and Aru-bank and a few others) then gets co-mingled with real money that makes it's way to SA and back to North America where it is promptly rounded up as counterfeit.

This scheme involving the North Koreans will not work unless you have a lawless nation with access to real American money. (Another reason to boycott that dump).

It would not work with a nation like Dominica. Not enough real American Dollars in circulation. You need a vast sum.

So how much?

Billions. You need access to a country that has or has access to billions of America dollars.

And that is why Aruba is chosen, and is a willing participant.

So how did this stop the investigation? This like be my opinion.

It (the investigation) got derailed because North Korea was the major cog here. There was a diplomatic effort over the last 10 years to get North Korea to dismantle a program that no one is sure was ever real. They did explode a high amount of something, but no one knows if it was a nuke or not. If it was, it was low level yield. A small nuke. If it was even that at all.

No one in the State Dept was going to take Aruba apart while that effort was on going.

And while there is an agreement between North Korea and the 6 Party Nations to disarm they are up to their old shenanigans again. No one is sure they will totally disarm.

So, you have a price to pay. Do you allow a few billion dollars to go through a God Less little death trap in exchange for an entire region being Nuke Free and getting those weapons out of the hands of a madman? And in turn leave that little rock alone for the time being?

That question is easy to answer from a State Dept view point. Of course you do.

We are talking about the lives of over a billion people involved here. 

It's obvious that the US Federal Gov't has known about this scheme for quite sometime and has decided negotiation  is the correct route.

Looks like Natalee and her family did get caught in something bigger than any of us imagine at the time.

Yes a young lady told Linda Allison that Joran threatened her with a knife at C&C after she refused his advances. Not sure if he was trying to buy her a drink or wanted to dance..But it look's like he is quick to threaten and pull out a knife..

Rob - makes sense to me now

yes it was something no one could figure out. Now it all makes sense.

When we all saw the reluctance on the part of the US Gov't we all wondered why. I believe we all know now.

Cuba is the other alleged participant in this scheme. As we all know, a lot of Cubans send American Dollars home.

Yes from what I remember he also told the girl his father was a very powerful man on the island.

The RWV knife story caught my eye because it completes/corrects Joran's book version. Joran says he accidentaly pushes a friend through the glass. He could have given his story some credibility by naming the friend, but he does not. And why would a *friend* flee the scene...what did he do wrong? Add the knife threat...and it makes sense.

Is this what 'would shock the world"?

Aruba laundering money for North Korea?

From J45 at Scrux:

Jonathan45


Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 103

 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Joran's lying truth became their lying truth.

Joran confirmed in his book that the pathogene character of
the double binds within the VDSfamily did seal their lips about
their son and brother as the only perpetrator in the missing
of Natalee Holloway.


Natalee's remains can and will be found.



Jonathan45

Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 103

 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tomorrow my theatre will be closed.


Jonathan45

Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 104

 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:15 am    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 


Joran showed me the tongues he used to lie.
Joran showed me the hideaway of the truth.
Joran showed me his shadow.
 
 
 

In my opinion, the 'Shock the World' comment does not have to do with this... I believe that has something to do with Paulus, but I have no way of knowing fer sure.

My Walmart had two vendors rifling thru the Christian book section and a bunch of boxes sitting in the aisle (imagine that).  I didn't see the book and heaven knows I looked. 

So you think it will be there tomorrow?

 :lol:   Jonathan's theatre was interesting, i hope he is not gone for good. If only to see the Meddler's twisty protestations. Like complaining about J45's book quotes violating copyright...on scrux...which has already posted about 1/2 the book.  ?

I'm with Rob.  Cover up is for Paulus' benefit not that boy.

Igsigs - have you seen this?   :lol:

http://zqv.com/noevidenceofacrime/contents.php

Peaches, I hope you are feeling better.

Sharon, maybe this is the 'shock the world' comment.  . . . it is pretty shocking.

Look's like both Aruban Judges in the NH case have extensive knowledge of Money Laundering in Aruba. Ton's of Info on the web about this subject..

Judge Rick Smid – Reportedly a friend of PVDS who stayed at VDS home.  Judge who released J2K in September 2005.  Dutch judge in Curacao.  As a public prosecutor in the NL, participated in the Carribean Financial Task Force as expert on money laundering.

The Honourable Mr. Justice Jacob Wit

Resident in Curaçao since 1986, from then to the present, Mr. Justice Wit has presided over or sat in the Court of Appeal, but mainly presided in the Courts of First Instan­ce over a wide range of cases, involving: civil law (contract, tort, property, succession), commercial and admiralty law, insurance, bankruptcy and (cross border) insolvency, company law and intellectual property, criminal law (serious crime, government corruption, international fraud, money laundering), military law, administrative law, constitutional law and international human rights law.

http://www.caribbeancourtofjustice.org/judges_pages/wit.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CIA World Fact Book on Aruba
Illicit drugs:   
transit point for US- and Europe-bound narcotics with some accompanying money-laundering activity 

http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact2005/geos/aa.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earlier post from FP on Money Laundering in Aruba

Barry McCaffrey, a retired general who is the Clinton administration’s anti-drug czar, said he had seen estimates that up to $50 billion from the sale of narcotics, out of an annual world total of $500 billion, is laundered through the Caribbean, making it a “ferociously corrupting influence” in the region. (Washington Post)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/drugs/oct/caribbi.htm

The U.S. State Department has reported that there is extensive money laundering in Aruba, the island closest to Colombia. Officials also note an increase in both cocaine and heroin trafficking there. A U.N. internal document says that 75 percent of all arrests in Aruba are now drug-related.

Recently published Dutch intelligence reports cite ''worrying indications'' that Aruban democracy is being eroded by money laundering linked to the drug trade - an allegation denied by the Aruban government.

Confronted with intensified interdiction efforts in the Bahamas and at the U.S.-Mexico border - and with the growing distrust of their Mexican allies - Colombian cartel members have pushed their drug trafficking deep into the eastern Caribbean, experts say.

About one-third of the cocaine available in the United States and one-half to two-thirds of that sold in Europe - hundreds of tons of the drug - is shipped through the tiny islands of this region, according to U.S. and European law enforcement officials.

fiction or friction . . . take your pick.

******* - that is the exact reason I said last night that this looks right up the alley of the Freebirds.

You would make a great Freebird  :wink:

edit the word are out..

I can't type today.

Wasn't Karin Janssen's specialty before going to Aruba also money laundering?

Seems to be a convention of experts there.

Well thx.. :D Those Freebirds do great work!! Whoever they are??

Many things are going on behind the scenes as we all suspect..If you have been watching the news you may have caught this..Israel bombed a bldg in Syria which is suspected of holding N.Korean nuclear devices  :shock: Both American and Israeli Govt's are saying absolutely nothing about the event..

******* - I thought I was the only one that noticed that.  I saw a report then nothing about it.  Unbelievable.

Israeli Secret Service stole the Core material and then blew the site. The tests indict it is from North Korea. All weapons grade Plutonium or Uranium have a signature specific to their maker.

It was on the Debka site last week.

Hi Monkeys!  Been lurking and reading as usual.  Just seeing the book is out at some Walmarts, so much for not going out again today!  Now, I gotta go run off to my local Walmart.

  Fingers crossed here, that it's there!

Err...no. LOL - I see there is no evidence, and Natalee was not with Joran, and Natalee made it back to the HI...and...you know the rest. For all that hard work, i hope she gets front-row tickets for the trial.  :wink:

Dihannah - Kermit was saying that some of the Walmarts restock the books on Tuesdays.  I'm going again tomorrow to check.

Pretty funny huh.  When I first found that you didn't need a password to read, she had left it public.  I may have taken some screen shots though, LOLOL

If it's true about it being a nuclear reactor than it's down right scary..It may be credible because all four countries involved refuse to talk about it..Also it doesn't suprise me at all that N.Korea would be involved in the enormous drug trade and money laundering in Aruba..

Israelis ‘blew apart Syrian nuclear cache’
Secret raid on Korean shipment


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece

he he he -  - that was FUNNY!!!

Gimmie!   >  TIA!    :)

are you aware they are deeply involved in the manufacturing of heroin? This is part of the reason everyone is starving there. They have used all of the land that is used for farming for heroin.

I saw a special on Nova about this. I believe it was called 'Children of a Secret State' and it went into the entire criminal empire known as North Korea.

Igsigs - check your email  :wink:

I have to disagree with Paulus being so important that our government would be covering for him, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

Paulus had an advantage being that he had relations with the prosecutor's office and the police and that was enough.

He may have threatened others before they realized that nobody cares what this liar says. He has no power, but he did succeed in making others complicit but only because this is SOP for Aruba.

the prosecutors office became the defender's office.

He's a nobody

All I knew was that North Korea was know to be very involved in drug trafficking(Heroin)and money laundering..What better place than Aruba to meet up with the various Mobs and Cartels? North Korea has had sanctions againts them for a long time so they used other methods to support there military aspirations..I also saw that this year in Afghanistan they said it was a record year producing Heroin.. That is most likely N.Korea's main source..

The Aruban Gov't is soo corrupt it doesnt suprise me at all that they may be involved with that country as well as the other cartel's that have been documented..

Hi Dihannah!  Good Luck!  I hope you find it!!

I wonder if NK uses the Aruba Freezone for any reasons? Pictures of an vessels in the cargo area would be very damning.

*******, believe it or not, NK grows their own poppy and they don't need to import it to export it.

Pyonyong to Oranjestad 7583.11 nautical miles.

and a funny fact from Google Earth. There is a hotel under construction in Pyonyong since 1987. LOL Still not completed.

I agree it's about Paulus.

I believe this guy thinks he is alot smarter and more powerfull than he really is..He know's dutch law as well as anyone and had all the right connections..He had the right contacts early in the case with Van Der Straaten,Prosecuters Office and a couple people in the Govt..Probably Rudy Croes.. They weren't just covering up the Murder of NH but all those that helped out PVDS..Look how Aruba has handled other criminal activities by officials,dissapearances of other tourists and sexual abuse towards women..If the Aruban official's could do it all over again I am sure they would have stopped the coverup early and Paul,Joran,Van Der Straaten and whoever else would of gone down. I just don't see how the Coverup could not involve someone like Rudy Croes and I think he would do whatever it takes to complete his turn in office and retire in luxury and not in a prison.  Oduber probably Ok'd the funding of these Mis-Inforamtion groups against Natalee and her Family and made other important decision's to hide the truth.

The Aruban Govt made the decision to cover everything up and save there tourism and world humiliation probably around the time of the confession.. Would not suprise me at all that PVDS would threaten not only bring down everyone in coverup but also other criminal activities that he has extensive knowledge of..If Rudy Croes is involved wouldn't that explain a great deal?

Paul van der Sloot said in a phone conversation with Peter de Vries that they had a lot to tell but they will not do that just now because of people involved who could be hurt by this information

If Paulus could leave he would, the question is why is he still in Aruba?

THANK-YOU, ROB!!!!!!!
The scenario I've been ranting about for a long time seems to be true (that this case had external implications involving the U.S. State Department, The Netherlands, South America, etc.)!!!! I just never knew just what the "Big Deal" concened. I never suspected North Korea and the nuke issues to be the gist of it!
 I'll re-hash my theory one more time:

Basically, the Natalee case HAS been solved. The Dutch know, the U.S. Govenment knows. Why haven't they told us?? Because, this whole larger (much bigger and more important ) matter must remain semi-dormant until the ENTIRE corrupt Aruban government is brought down.

I still think (entirely my own opinion) that Beth and Dave have been appraised of this.

Justice IS coming  -- just not as soon as we all wish.  :-|

I have always found it strange why he has never left Aruba and the only reason I can think of is Paulus is keeping his eye on certain people.  Especially his partner at his law firm Antonio Carlo.

I never suspected NK either Wreck. It came as a surprise.  But connecting the dots here is not hard when you factor in they counterfeit to support their oligarchy. This is bigger than the cartels, the mafia, porn, gambling, and all other other stuff Aruba is know for. It's huge imo.

They could know.

Doesn't make much sense he is staying except he is guarding something?

Monday, June 27, 2005

Croes had said the detention of Paul van der Sloot — whose son Joran changed the story he told police about the night of Natalee's disappearance — could be key to solving the case.
Croes said Joran and the two other jailed suspects were surveilled electronically after being released following an initial round of questioning. He implied that information picked up by such surveillance led to their second detention.
"That's why, after a certain moment, they were seized," said Croes.

In an anecdote that illustrated the insular world of Aruba, Justice Minister Croes said Paul van der Sloot had recently visited him in his office after failing to become a judge, apparently seeking a position in Croes' department. Van der Sloot had also taught the justice minister's daughter.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160699,00.html
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What Surveillance Information are they talking about?

At the Sloot dump.

I suspect Paulus and his clan are out of Aruba the second the case is closed.

Wanted to mention that I sent a message to "the usual suspects" in the Atlanta area re. a Monkey & Friends get-together in conjunction with Beth's book signing.

She will be at the Barnes & Noble in Buckhead at 7:00 p.m. Thursday Oct. 4.

If I don't have your email addy and you want to try to join us, ask klaas for my email addy and send me a message. I'll send info back to you.

klaas has a thread on other stops on the tour ... I don't see another in our general vicinity until 10/22 in Birmingham.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1177.0 (http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1177.0)

It's pretty shocking to me, Rob.

And from the little 'snippets' we're reading (thanks, by the way :wink:) -- they were aware of the N Korea connection early on. If they knew about this connection prior to Jug's comment -- it would be a real possibility.

I've always wondered about that comment of Jug's.

Is Aruba's Government Covering Up Again
 
EAST GREENWICH, RI / PR FREE / Jul 01 2005 -- 
Rudy Croes, the Minister of Justice in Aruba, has every opportunity to question the Holloway investigation to assure that there is justice in Aruba even against the people that he did favors for and those he received favors from (the Dutch judicial officials).

The minister of justice, the political party MEP and the Dutch judges are portraying their partiality by bringing in a judge from a different Island to rule over the case yet the officials that are preparing the investigation are all friends and family of the suspect. How partial is this? Those who are preparing the investigation/case have access to all declarations, forensic reports, suspects and suspects family. Several reports by the international press have proven that the van der Sloot family is very close to the investigating team (The Dutch prosecutors office).

Mathew was isolated for two years and eight months to ensure that the truth would not surface. The Arubian press and the minister of justice, Rudy Croes played a large roll in the defamation of his character to justify his isolation. Now that the truth has surfaced, certain politicians and senators have raised concern that this corruption will repeat itself in the Holloway case and justice will not be served. The minister of justice Rudy Croes is attacking Alexander Mathew, the politicians and the senators in the local newspapers based upon lies. The minister of justice is even accusing Mathew of owning the website "to hell with Aruba. Com," this is a false accusation that is being supported by the Arubian newspaper "Bon Dia Aruba."

Mathew states that the government and the prosecution department is corrupt and is harming the Holloway family and the entire Arubian population. If the Holloway case had been investigated appropriately from the beginning it would have been resolved by now and Aruba would not still be suffering.

The store mgr gave me the information. He says Tuesday the vendors come in and set it up.

Borders does not have it, they show the release date on their computers as now until Oct.

Walmart has it available online and you can ship it overnight.

NETHERLANDS
701 Brickell Ave.
5th Floor
Miami, FL 33131
(786) 866-0480
644 Cesery Blvd.
Suite 200
Jacksonville, FL 32211
(904) 744-0275
201 S. Orange Ave.
Suite 910
Orlando, FL 32801
(407) 425-8000

KOREA (REPUBLIC OF)
SunTrust International Center, 28th Floor
1 S.E. 3rd Ave.
Miami, FL 33131
(305) 982-5573
Miami Trade Office
Korea Trade Center
One Biscayne Tower
2 S. Biscayne Blvd.
Suite 3770
Miami, FL 33131
(305) 374-4648

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:TpbF9tjSz4gJ:www.businessflorida.com/resources/consular_corps.asp+korea+%2B+brickell+ave+florida&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:TpbF9tjSz4gJ:www.businessflorida.com/resources/consular_corps.asp+korea+%2B+brickell+ave+florida&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

Hi Frank

The Island of Aruba did not anticipate the strength and determination of a mother by the name of Beth Holloway Twitty. By the time that Aruba realized that this amazing woman was not about to be silenced until her quest for answers regarding her precious daughter were answered ... it was too late to turn back.  It was no longer about protecting Paulus and Joran in regards to their role in the events that encompass that fateful morning ... it was now about protecting those at all levels of the Aruban/Dutch administrations who were involved in the coverup  ... it was about the sons of the elite ... it was about the judiciary ... it was about the implications of exposing Aruba's dirty little secrets ... organized crime in regards drugs ... gambling ... prostitution ... pornography ... money laundering.

As Natalee’s father acknowledges … if it had not been for the media … the investigation into the disappearance of his precious daughter would have been a distance memory long ago.  I hope that Dave Holloway has given Natalee's mother credit where credit is due.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++=

Dave Holloway
On the Record w/ Greta
April 11, 2006

VAN SUSTEREN: Did the media help or hurt you?

HOLLOWAY: Oh, the media was our best friend. If it hadn't been for the media this thing would have been swept under the table the very first day and we'd have been calling back to Aruba "Have you heard anything? Have you heard anything?" I truly believe that.

Paul van der Sloot will now work as a lawyer

ORANJESTAD – Last week, Mr. Paul van der Sloot attended court for a meeting. This was related to the fact that his contract with the government for his function as judge expired and the Court had to know what Mr. Paul van der Sloot was going to do. The options weren’t many. Either he left Aruba and establish himself back in Holland or he stayed in Aruba but had to look for another function.

WORK AS A LAWYER

A Bon Dia investigation demonstrates that Mr. Paul van der Sloot chose to stay in Aruba and that he wants to continue working as a lawyer given that he did not completely achieve his judgeship studies. There is a rumour circulating that Mr. Paul van der Sloot will work in the office of Mr. Carlo. Bon Dia Aruba called Mr. Carlo’s office for more information, but he couldn’t be located.

CASE AGAINST PUBLIC PROSECUTOR

Paul van der Sloot asked the judge to be registered as a lawyer. When making such a petition, the judge asks the Attorney General (AG) of Aruba if they have something against the person being registered as an attorney. The AG bases her advice on data from the “Justitiele Documentatiedienst” (justice documentation service).
It is in the “Justitiele Documentatiedienst” that judge decisions in penal cases (sentence) and prosecutor decisions (sepot? Or conditional sepot?) are registered. The Justitiele Documentatiedienst then gives a so called conduct declaration.

In the case of Mr. Paul van der Sloot, there is a case registered in the Justitiele Documentatiedienst. As it is known, in June 2005, Mr. Van der Sloot was detained but there is still no decision from the prosecutor nor from the judge. This made it such that a good conduct document could not be given.

On this basis, Mr. Paul van der Sloot decided to start a case against the Public Prosecutor. Bon Dia’s investigation shows that Mr. Van der Sloot made a petition to the court for this case and it was determined that this case will take place on January 11 at 2 in the afternoon.

CASE WILL NOT CONTINUE

However, yesterday the Public Prosecutor notified Mr. Van der Sloot for him to drop by their office and come get his good conduct document. This was based on the last case that Mr. Van der Sloot brought for damages and prejudice.

A couple of weeks back, van der Sloot started a case where he asked for damages and prejudice for his arrest and the days that he was imprisoned. During the treatment of the case Mr. Van der Sloot ’s attorney, Mr. Swaen, showed the judge a letter from the prosecutor that dealt with the case of van der Sloot where the prosecutor said that Mr. Paul van der Sloot could not obtain any case documents because he was no longer a suspect.

On the basis of this letter, the attorney told the judge that the prosecutor let it be known that the case against van der Sloot was over. The judge said in his decision that he is in agreement with the attorney.

Given that the prosecutor herself said that Mr. Van der Sloot is no longer a suspect, which according to the judge can be looked at as the prosecutor saying that the case is over, since the prosecutor will no longer pursue the case. This signifies that Paul van der Sloot will soon start working as a lawyer in Aruba and the case he brought forth against the Public Prosecutor will not go forward since he obtained his good conduct document, which is the document he was missing to be registered as a lawyer.

Apparently he failed as a Lawyer working for Aruba Govt as well as a judge in training. I think it's possible that he was used by some of the darker forces in Aruba when he held these position's of Authority.. I wonder how much dirt he might hold on a person like Rudy Croes?? No proof that PVDS was involved in the Helicopter scandal but I am sure it's a very small part of the corruption he may have been involved in. Would be interesting to find out what contracts PVDS helped the Govt of Aruba with. How many fraudulent and scandalous contracts did PVDS sign his name to?
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New job

In 1991 Paul van der Sloot thought it was the time for a new job and he found one in Aruba where he was appointed for five year as a lawyer for the Aruban government. The ministers there were not impressed with his stance   „I always first try to find a compromise. By simply prosecuting nobody gets wiser.  If the authorities do something wrong I will always admit that. You must never interpret the facts differently then what they are.  I am convinced that on the long run this will give better results“, According to Van der Sloot in an interview ten years ago in the Brabants Dagblad. 

After a while Van der Sloot got a different assigment: the government wanted him to only set up contracts. Van der Sloot considered going back to The Netherlands, but he liked the small scale of Aruba and as it appeared he had enough possibilities to continue with his career.  He became cabinets leader for the public ministry and gave classes of Administrative Law at the local university. 
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Rudy Croes Scandal
The minister of Justice signed a contract with a helicopter company from Venezuela on September 13, 2003 in the framework of the fight against crime.

The Audit Chamber immediately pointed out that there is no memo in which the helicopter is justified: “Before taking on contractual obligations one must first review if they fit in the established policy. There must also be a clear view of the project’s specific objectives

The minister’s reason for not conducting a public tendering was the urgent nature of the matter. But according to the law this is not a valid reason. The Audit Chamber also pointed out that the contract doesn’t refer to the confidential nature of the activities. They also couldn’t find any documents showing that the ministry of Justice verified whether or not the leased company complies with certain safety codes.

The contract itself does not meet the approval of the Audit Chamber. The document is drafted in English and doesn’t state where a legal dispute should be argued or which laws would be of effect. The contract doesn’t regulate confidentiality by the Venezuelan personnel, nor liabilities in the event of accidents and insurances in the event of damage. The signature dates on the contracts also seem incorrect. The Audit Chamber also had qualms concerning the calculation of penalty interests for late payments. Nowhere does it state what is considered late payment and when this penalty goes into effect. Even a passage concerning the price increases is criticized by ARA: “This opens the door to future problems”.

http://members.aol.com/WorldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline2006_01.html

Klaas
Where is that "big fish" story you posted today concerning the arrest of some prominent people or something like that? TIA

I went ahead and put it in the Important Case Doc/Murder & Crime:wink:

Per Heli & MF at RU - don't know if this is factual or not.  Saying the arrest was of Luis Mansur:

FLASH -- Arrests in Aruba September 24, 2007

Today in Aruba, some 120 police officers from ALE, KLPD, Antillean Arrest Team and Dutch investigators arrested Luis Mansur, brother of Jossy Mansur and 8 other persons in connection with money laundering, drug trafficking, bribery and other charges.

It would seem this was the reason the KLPD was in Aruba for all those
months.


MF wrote:
This was done this morning.
The arrest of L.M. (63) was done earlier and even had problems with the police, because he shot them thinking it might be burglurars, but luckily no one was hurt.

There were other 10 houses searched, lawyer's office, a lot of computers, documents, there were even diggings going on and dogs from the KLPD were used.

These pics are from the above mentioned suspect's house.

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/2337/8/
Razzia grandi teni rond di Aruba         
Monday, 24 September 2007 


Aruba a habri dia cu e informe cu “pisca” grandi a wordo gara den e razzia cu funcionarionan di RST (Recherche Samenwerkings Team) a tene den oranan di marduga pa mainta, hunto cu funcionarionan for di Hulanda. E trabou ta asina grandi cu pa 1’or di merdia ainda e funcionarionan ta buscando material na por lo menos dos di e cuater casnan cu a ser invadi den oranan di marduga, na Nuñe y Cashero. Click read more pa e imagenan di e cas cu a wordo invadi na Nuñe 75.

Through translator:

razzia big teni rond of aruba


aruba owing to open day cu the informe cu “pisca” big owing to wordo grab in the razzia cu funcionarionan of rst (recherche samenwerkings team) owing to as in oranan of marduga for morning, together cu funcionarionan for of the netherlands. the work is so big cu for 1’or of afternoon still the funcionarionan is buscando material at at least two of the cuater casnan cu owing to being invadi in oranan of marduga, at nuñe y cashero. click read more for her imagenan of the cas cu owing to wordo invadi at nuñe 75. come across

(http://www.24ora.com/mambots/content/multithumb/images/1..stories.news.2007.september.sep24.nune.nune1.jpg)

(http://www.24ora.com/mambots/content/multithumb/images/1..stories.news.2007.september.sep24.nune.nune7.jpg)

(http://www.24ora.com/mambots/content/multithumb/images/1..stories.news.2007.september.sep24.nune.nune3.jpg)

(http://www.24ora.com/mambots/content/multithumb/images/1..stories.news.2007.september.sep24.nune.nune6.jpg)

(http://www.24ora.com/mambots/content/multithumb/images/1..stories.news.2007.september.sep24.nune.P1300081.JPG)

Good to see ALE and KLPD working together, making actual arrests. Island clean-up?

Was Renfro ever hired by the Mansurs? Was she arrested in the sweep?  :cool:

Not unless she has someone else posting as Glenda right now at RU  :wink:

Don't make me look.  : )    Seen any Lazlo at RU?

I don't know if this is about the same "sting" (as the "big fish" article) or not ... maybe "big fish" means "important people/person"?

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/2339/8/ (http://www.24ora.com/content/view/2339/8/)   09/24/2007



Online Pap translation:

accion big of police cu 8 detencion
monday, 24 september 2007

monday 24 of september in oranan early of morning 8 person owing to wordo deteni during of one accion big of police cu did take lugar. the personanan here is wordo sospecha of participa at one organisacion criminal cu is dedica his self at trafico internacional of drugs, especialmente of importacion y exportacion of cocaine y heroin. click read more for more of the relato.

besides the organisacion criminal here is wordo sospecha of extorsion (afpersing), posesion of arm of candela y labamento of coin procedente of hechonan castigabel. {money laundering}

the accion here is result of one investigacion of recherche samenwerkingsteam (rst) aruba cu have enough time andando y cu owing to wordo institui under guia of ministerio publico. one overall {A total} of 6 person more owing to wordo deteni bao suspicion of is permanece ilegal on aruba.

during the accion cu did take lugar today rst owing to hanja refuerso of one great cantidad of colega of cuerpo policial aruban y also of cuerpo of aduana. expertonan dutch ruba territory financiero y digital also owing to give they sosten at the accion here. mirando the magnitud of the accion the team of aresto of aruba owing to hanja refuerso of coleganan of the team of curacao. at instant cu the team of aresto owing to go over at detencion of one of the sospechosonan the person here owing to throw cu one arm of candela. none person owing to resulta injury. in cuadro of buscamento of coin y drugs scondi owing to haci usage of cachonan of korps landelijke politiediensten (klpd) cu is specialmente entrena for haci this. one overall {A total} of 120 agent policial owing to participa at the accion here.

bao guia of huez-comisario 10 listramento of cas y another lugarnan did take lugar y e.o. the next obhetonan owing to wordo confisca: documentonan financiero y another documentonan, armanan of candela, drugs, coin, y some vehiculo. one of the lugarnan cu owing to wordo listra is one office of one advocate.

the sospechosonan cu owing to wordo deteni ta:
h.r.m.o. (41 aña)
r.r. (45 aña)
l.e.m. (63 aña)
m.v.c. (68 aña)
r.a.b.m. (28 aña)
f.r.a. (50 aña)
m.k.k. (28 aña)
j.a.c. (36 aña)

all sospechoso owing to wordo encarcela at wardanan of police y at the instant here they're wordo interoga. the expectativa is cu the sospechosonan here will wordo take away dilante huez comisario diahuebs now 27 of september.

Accion grandi di polis cu 8 detencion        
Monday, 24 September 2007 

(http://www.24ora.com/images/stories/news/cashero_front.jpg)

Dialuna 24 di September den oranan tempran di mainta 8 persona a wordo deteni durante di un accion grandi di polis cu a tuma lugar. E personanan aki ta wordo sospecha di participa na un organisacion criminal cu ta dedica su mes na trafico internacional di droga, especialmente di importacion y exportacion di cocaine y heroina. Click read more pa mas di e relato.

Ademas e organisacion criminal aki ta wordo sospecha di extorsion (afpersing), posesion di arma di candela y labamento di placa procedente di hechonan castigabel.

E accion aki ta resultado di un investigacion di Recherche Samenwerkingsteam (RST) Aruba cu tin basta tempo andando y cu a wordo institui bou guia di Ministerio Publico. Un total di 6 persona mas a wordo deteni bao sospecho di ta permanece ilegal riba Aruba.

Durante e accion cu a tuma lugar awe RST a hanja refuerso di un gran cantidad di colega di Cuerpo Policial Arubano y tambe di Cuerpo di Aduana. Expertonan Hulandes ruba tereno financiero y digital tambe a duna nan sosten na e accion aki. Mirando e magnitud di e accion e team di aresto di Aruba a hanja refuerso di coleganan di e team di Curacao. Na momento cu e team di aresto a bai over na detencion di un di e sospechosonan e persona aki a tira cu un arma di candela. Ningun persona a resulta herida. Den cuadro di buscamento di placa y droga scondi a haci uso di cachonan di Korps Landelijke Politiediensten (KLPD) cu ta specialmente entrena pa haci esaki. Un total di 120 agente policial a participa na e accion aki.

Bao guia di huez-comisario 10 listramento di cas y otro lugarnan a tuma lugar y e.o. e siguiente obhetonan a wordo confisca: documentonan financiero y otro documentonan, armanan di candela, droga, placa, y algun vehiculo. Un di e lugarnan cu a wordo listra ta un oficina di un abogado.

E sospechosonan cu a wordo deteni ta:
H.R.M.O. (41 aña)
R.R. (45 aña)
L.E.M. (63 aña) Luis Mansur?
M.V.C. (68 aña)
R.A.B.M. (28 aña)
F.R.A. (50 aña)
M.K.K. (28 aña)
J.A.C. (36 aña)

Tur sospechoso a wordo encarcela na wardanan di polis y na e momento aki nan ta wordo interoga. E expectativa ta cu e sospechosonan aki lo wordo hiba dilante huez comisario diahuebs awor 27 di september.


Through translator:

accion big of police cu 8 detencion
monday, 24 september 2007

monday 24 of september in oranan early of morning 8 person owing to wordo deteni during of one accion big of police cu did take lugar. the personanan here is wordo sospecha of participa at one organisacion criminal cu is dedica his self at trafico internacional of drugs, especialmente of importacion y exportacion of cocaine y heroin. click read more for more of the relato. besides the organisacion criminal here is wordo sospecha of extorsion (afpersing), posesion of arm of candela y labamento of coin procedente of hechonan castigabel. the accion here is result of one investigacion of recherche samenwerkingsteam (rst) aruba cu have enough time andando y cu owing to wordo institui under guia of ministerio publico. one overall of 6 person more owing to wordo deteni bao suspicion of is permanece ilegal on aruba. during the accion cu did take lugar today rst owing to hanja refuerso of one great cantidad of colega of cuerpo policial aruban y also of cuerpo of aduana. expertonan dutch ruba territory financiero y digital also owing to give they sosten at the accion here. mirando the magnitud of the accion the team of aresto of aruba owing to hanja refuerso of coleganan of the team of curacao. at instant cu the team of aresto owing to go over at detencion of one of the sospechosonan the person here owing to throw cu one arm of candela. none person owing to resulta injury. in cuadro of buscamento of coin y drugs scondi owing to haci usage of cachonan of korps landelijke politiediensten (klpd) cu is specialmente entrena for haci this. one overall of 120 agent policial owing to participa at the accion here. bao guia of huez-comisario 10 listramento of cas y another lugarnan did take lugar y the.o. the next obhetonan owing to wordo confisca: documentonan financiero y another documentonan, armanan of candela, drugs, coin, y some vehiculo. one of the lugarnan cu owing to wordo listra is one office of one advocate.

the sospechosonan cu owing to wordo deteni ta:

h.r.m.o. (41 aña) r.r. (45 aña) l.e.m. (63 aña) m.v.c. (68 aña) r.a.b.m. (28 aña) f.r.a. (50 aña) m.k.k. (28 aña) j.a.c. (36 aña)

all sospechoso owing to wordo encarcela at wardanan of police y at the instant here they're wordo interoga. the expectativa is cu the sospechosonan here will wordo take away dilante huez comisario diahuebs now 27 of september. come across

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/2339/8/

klaas -  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Why you laughing at me, lol  :lol:

OOPS, lololol...now I see  :lol: :lol:

Nope nor Victor at Scrux

Luis Mansur was the only name released? The rest are just initials?

No, only initials were released. But somebody (MF?) says LM is Louis Mansur.

I take that back, Victor did post at Scrux today:

Victor



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 24

 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:01 am    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
polemic wrote:



"we"? "someone of Natalee's profile"? "Sure"?  

 


Sorry but you are wrongly informed, going after girls is not called nor considered the dating process.




Are you kidding?
Joran: "When I was in the car I thought: f*k that b*tch".  

So, would we consider someone of polemic's profile posting nonsense? Sure.  
 

That would be LEM ... MF says he's Jossy's brother, I think.

Wow....reading over today's posts re: North Korea, Aruba, cocaine, money laundering...I would say that this is BIG.  It's something that I would have never put together on my own. 

Paulus was involved with government contracts....maybe other contracts as well.  Would the NK connection require any contracts or similiar kind of work?  Work that Paulus would either be involved in or have knowledge of. 

There IS some kind of deep connection that Paulus is involved in....he's just been able to get too much stuff swept under the rug. 
Maybe an involvement in something this big would be a reason why Joran would say that his father is a very big man in Aruba. 

LEM - is Luis Mansur according to MF/Heli/Glenda

Wonder if "MVC" could be a van Cromvoirt?

I don't think JVC's dad would be that old.  Plus, his first name is Wilhem I believe.

I seem to recall that Jossy and Luis did not get along very well.  Wasn't Luis the "black sheep" of the family? 

Anyone else remember this?

I think there are several black sheep in the Mansur family but Jossy seems to be the one always trying to rise above it all and do the right things.

Developers Luis Mansur & Sara Mansur transferred ownership of the real estate assets to 15.000 on-island/off-island owners, the time share members of the resort
http://www.visitaruba.com/facts/newsdesk/images/p_cabana_transfer.jpg

(pretty sure these links no longer work, but that was info I had)
Luis Mansur
http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=jp9vCVXWKK1qNvbD
Carlo Mansur
http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=7X2z7ftKTg2S3xs8
Arturo Mansur
http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=YJjqnPYpIc4x3ue9
Terrick Mansur
http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=FvF9Z1BokQMojGih
Naira Mansur
http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=qEktVFVVt.T.9Z2M
Alina Mansur
http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=XINT-Tp6pvE14fgS


Nickname
luismnsr

Name
Luis Mansur

age
18 years old (25 June 1988)

Location
Boca Raton (33431)
Florida (United States)

Love status
Single & looking

Sexual preference
Hetero
Occupation
Student

Information profiles:

Profession Student
City Boca Raton

Profession (or studies) International Business

Love status Single & looking

Sexual preference Hetero

Music styles Rap | HipHop | Rock | Hard Rock | Metal | Alternative | Trance | Techno | House | Chill | Rave

Interests Art | Cars | Motorbikes | Nightlife | Friends | Dating | Movies | Music

Hobbies Surfing, Guitar

Favourite sport Watersports | Martial Arts

Favourite holiday Sun, sea and beach

http://www.bingbox.com/luismnsr
_________________
___________________________________________
Nickname
bangbus69

Name
Renato v/dbiezen

age
23 years old (21 May 1983)

Location
(15222)
Aruba (Other)

http://www.bingbox.com/bangbus69



If memory serves me, Sara Mansur was Jan van der Straaten's secretary.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/LuisMansurcopy.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/LuisMansur2.jpg)

Kermit - there is Luis E. Mansur(Jossy's brother) and then there is Jossy's son Luis Mansur (either his son or nephew).  The one arrested today is 63yrs old.

Marcor's reply:

Sharon, I think Bondia was trying to convince people that the man holding the cloth was one of Jossy Mansur's relatives.  There is no love lost between Julia Renfro and Jossy Mansur.  Frankly, I do not believe a word that Bondia/Julia says as she has been known to deliberately speak lies to mislead and confuse people.



karen
Scared Monkey
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Location: fl
   
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject:    Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote
WOW..pos is outta chicago, right? & eric is a mansur, right? ck this out!! all chicago!!
CORPORATION FILE DETAIL REPORT
Entity Name MANSUR INTERESTS, LTD. File Number


 Attorney Lincoln Gomez  escorted by his baby sister - rumor has it his new girlfriend is a young, aspiring cat walker; John Chemali Jr., Damilice Mansur, Evelyn Wever, Lalo Croes and cousin Maryann, Michael Saladin, Humphrey Odor and the cast of Shhhhhh . . . Don’t Tell Mama . . .
http://www.visitaruba.com/facts/newsdesk/backissues/newsletter51.html


Mr. Carlo Mansur of the Aruba Motorsports Foundation – Aruba plans to move full speed ahead in creating a venue which would draw major race events, along with thousands of race enthusiasts.
http://www.visitaruba.com/facts/newsdesk/backissues/newsletter28.html


Members of the Strategic Communications Task Force     
   
Mr. Olindo Koolman (Senior Advisor)
Mr. Jaap Beaujon (Advisor)
Mr. Serge Mansur (ATIA)
sergemansur@yahoo.com
Mr. Greg Peterson (ATIA)
Mr. Jorge Pesquera (AHATA)
Mr. Jeff Lesker (AHATA)
Mr. Alfonso Riveroll (AHATA)
Ms. Myrna Jansen (ATA)
Mr. Rob Smith (Aruba Hospitality & Security Foundation)
Mr. Bill Carson (Banking Sector/AHATA)
william.carson@cmbnv.com
Mr. Edwin Roos (Chamber of Commerce)
Mr. Ruben Trappenberg (Aruba Government)
Mr. Eric Brete (Aruba Government)

The Colombian newsmagazine Semana reported that representatives of Philip Morris's Colombian distributors, the Aruba-based Mansur family, met with Ernesto Samper during his 1994 presidential campaign and gave him more than $500,000. The Conservative Party of current President Andres Pastrana has ties to the industry too: Among several top officials with links to Philip Morris is the company's longtime lobbyist and attorney, Martha Lucia Ramirez, now minister of foreign trade.
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20020506&s=schapiro


1. The authors of the communication are Luis Emilio Mansur and Jossy Mehsen Mansur, Dutch citizens who are residents of Aruba. They claim to be victims of violations by the Kingdom of the Netherlands of their rights under articles 2 and 17 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The victims are represented by Dr. Jan M. Sjöcrona of The Hague, the Netherlands and Mr. John H. Van der Kuyp of Oranjestad, Aruba.
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/undocs/session67/view883.htm

Yeah. Pretty interesting. I wonder if that is his son luis and the bangabus stuff.

Don't know.  There are plenty of Mansur's to go around just like Croe's :lol:

H.R.M.O. (41 aña) - I'm wondering if this is an Oduber  :wink:
R.R. (45 aña)
L.E.M. (63 aña)
M.V.C. (68 aña)
R.A.B.M. (28 aña)
F.R.A. (50 aña)
M.K.K. (28 aña)
J.A.C. (36 aña)

MIAMI FL  D
MANSUR, LUIS MIGUEL
972 NW 106TH AVE CIR.


Federal Inmate Locator:
1. ALEX MANSUR   00646-748 47 White M 05-14-1998     RELEASED

1. ERIC MANSUR 00647-748 46 White M 05-14-1998     RELEASED

Apparently released the same day as brother Alex.

June 11, 2005

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice (search) told FOX News Natalee Holloway (search), who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body
However, Cruz later retracted the statement, saying he was a victim of a "misinformation campaign."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html

grande Says:
July 2nd, 2006 at 2:35 am
“On September 20 2005, MSNBCtelevision news journalist Rita Cosby interviewed an FBI agent who identified Posner as a convicted felon with alleged organized crime ties. Posner’s casino, the Excelsior, has been implicated in the Natalee Holloway disappearance.”

Michael is also the owner of Brickel Bay Beach Club in Aruba, as well as, multiple online gambling sites affiliated with the Excelsior Casino. Also registered in the same office is Aruba Aloe with Luis Posner being a registered officer. The Posner’s also have business interests in Curacao and the Aruba Free Zone along with Jossy Mansur and Co.
“Curaçao’s major container port is St. Annabaai. The major food wholesalers are Consales, J.P. Maal, Posner’s Agencies, and C. Winkel and Zomen”



County Clerk records outline the various transactions the Mansur’s and Posner’s have made in the Miami as well Plantation, Florida.

444 Brickell Ave.
Is the business address for Posner, Bang Bus, Ernesto (freddy's brother)
and Jossy Mansur.

701 Brickell is Aruba Aloe.

Mr and Mrs Mansur and there beautiful daughters were glad to introduce on Monday 18 th of May to Aruba their new HOOTERS in the high rise area, right in front of the Hyatt Regency Resort.
(http://www.guiafashion.com/fashion/internacional/24-05-05hooters/prev/12.jpg)
http://www.guiafashion.com/fashion/internacional/24-05-05hooters/pag5.htm


tony smith Said:
2:19 am
Ladies and gents this is bigger than big…....... Good is fighting evil on a higher level than ghostbusters…........This is on GODS level ( seems there are no more true believers left )........Why don’t we all spend our energy on praying for a positive outcome for Natalee and her Parents….........P.S. video of the F16 flybys over Aruba will be available at www.aru-bay.com…............

http://exposetheleft.com/wp-mobile.php?p=2026&more=1
www.aru-bay has got it right on i think…........ Go see the new video and forum for the full…..but in short…..If the ocean is right there it is super easy to roll the body in the ocean so why all this pondparanoia?????and did you know the diario is aruba’s national enquirer and the mansur family was extradited to the USA for….......find it at www.aru-bay.com
Comment by tony smith July 28, 2005 @ 11:18 pm


****LUIS A. MANSUR**********************

Name: MANSUR, LUIS ARMANDO
DOB: 04/18/1969
State Case#: 132006CF0203410001XX
Date Filed: 06/23/2006
Hearing Date: 07/13/2006
Courtroom: REGJB-JUSTICE BUILDING, ROOM#:7-2
Address: 1351 N.W. 12 ST
Judge: PEREZ, JORGE

Charge: ***********L&L CHLD***************

***********************FELONY***********************

Defense Attorney: KAHN, ROY

Comment by grande | July 11, 2006, 11:57 am
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/07/10/aruban-tourism-different-month-same-results-february-march-down-significantly/

LOL - it's a maze.

Are they that old?

The pictures I have seem like they are younger.

Yep, according to 24ora

Miss Piggy is nagging me, I mean calling me to come watch the bachelor show with her. Just what I need.

see ya later.

Nite Kermit

CLUB ARIAS - ARUBA
Address:  123K Savaneta, Aruba (property owner Astrid van Rijn)
http://www.clubarias.com/index2.html

Club Arias
Owned by:

Arias G. Schwarz
Boca Raton, FL

PRIVATE PARTIES:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/ClubArias.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/ArubaRentalClubArias.jpg)

NOTE:

Veronica Posner SCHWARZ  - Aruba

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:ZpJmAndAfMsJ:runraceresults.com/Gender.asp%3FEv%3DRCMY2006%26Rc%3D3%26Tp%3DF+%22schwarz%22+aruba&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Well, well, well.....Lala's and others will have some questions ready in a few hours...

I'm not surprised...What will turn up next?

So what do we have?   A link to Lorenzo and Club Arias private VIP parties.  We also have a link to Posner and Swartz (the owner or Club Arias).

That's a very intersting find  :shock: Must be one of the other Posner's since Michael is listed as having no children and married to Robin Abergel..I have always wondered what his relationship is with the other Posner's in Aruba?

******* - you are correct, probably one of the other Posners.  Still, the link to Club Arias and Lorenzo is very interresting.   :wink:

Club Arias?

Follow the music?

 :cool:

You can tell it's a new place the testimonials look really fake..lol..What kind of private club is this really?? WHo runs it Flory and Arias Schwartz from FLA or a Local Aruban Guy??

This guy seem's pretty fishy :wink:
http://www.clubarias.com/testimonials6.html
Coming to Aruba wasn't one really one of my first choices of Vacation but he heard about club arias and met Arias personally and I thought it would be interesting trip to hang out with a local Local guy who is building a Dream Club in Aruba to cater to clients that want personal attention and umm thats Why he got there this week

What does she do for the Club?  :o It looks like Maria the masseuse :wink:
http://www.clubarias.com/testimonials1.html

She on vacation also?  :o
http://www.clubarias.com/testimonials3.html

What's this kid doing at the party?? He looks like he is 13 :shock:
http://www.clubarias.com/testimonials8.html

That his wife??"He likes this place" :wink:
http://www.clubarias.com/testimonials2.html

"No place in the world like club arias??Yeh anything you say pal :wink:
http://www.clubarias.com/testimonials7.html

http://www.clubarias.com/testimonials.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Domain Name.......... clubarias.com
  Creation Date........ 2006-07-23
  Registration Date.... 2006-07-23
  Expiry Date.......... 2008-07-23
  Organisation Name.... Arias Schwarz
 
Domain Name: clubarias.com

J.A.C. (36 aña)

Chemaly Jr.? The initials work.

Okay, here's what Jossy's paper has to say ...

http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/9/25/ (http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/9/25/)


Online Pap translation:

man owing to los tiro hour cu owing to hear
explosion at his cas
razzia serious rond of aruba owing to produci
eight detencion

diez cas owing to worde listra

oranjestad (aan): week owing to open cu one accion pisa of razzia, invasion of cas {house}, y buskeda riguroso in several district at aruba, y at end of day, provided that overall 8 person owing to stay deteni. for some week end autoridad is siguiendo paso- y movimento of some person provided that conexion cu desmantelacion of one near of crimen organiza cu is dedica his self at trafica drugs, extorsion, labamento of coin y of have arm in they posesion. {drug traffic, extortion, money laundering, and possession of firearms}

the trabao of the observatie team of cuerpo policial aruban, combina cu the tapmento digital y automatico awendia of conversacionnan via telephone door of recherche samenwerkings team {RST} y cu the accion of arrestatie team of aruba y curaçao was the cause cu autoridad owing to penetra several cas usando forza bruto {brute? brutal? force}, for so stay cu the element of ‘sorpresa’ {surprise} at beneficio of autoridad.

bao guia of huez-comisario, one overall of 10 listramento of cas y another lugarnan did take lugar y e.o. the next obhetonan owing to worde confisca: documentonan financiero y another documentonan, armanan of candela, drugs, coin, y some vehiculo. one of the lugarnan cu owing to worde listra door of autoridad, is one office of one advocate {attorney} also.

all this owing to cuminza monday in oranan of madruga! the tactica of simultaneamente haci invasion at the casnan concerni owing to cause consternacion in various district, y this owing to socede without cu the personal even of police, neither centro of alarma was know. pesey yamadanan owing to enter hour cu had iregularidad. this can some can owing to become one desastre hour cu if one patrol of police bay at one of the adres y achieve the hendenan dress at black cu arm. y this owing to hera happen also at nuñe.

at nuñe self, bisiñanan owing to hear the ado strong y owing to believe cu is ladronicia is andando, y pesey owing to core calling police the madruga ey. fuentenan owing to confirma cu berdad one patrol of police owing to worde send cu urgente for help the habitantenan, but at caminda for her lugar... at last they owing to achieve one message kico genuinely is socede. then neither central of police was at height of the accion secreto y sorpresivo here.

besides several agent policial owing to being calling marduga self for lever keep of trip y pidiendo they for come cu jeans y flanel dress y cu for they come cu they arm y boei y so raporta at cierto keep of police. where of eynan they will being dirigi where for they bay in cual vehiculo y for they help in buscamento y recogemento of pruebanan at the respectivo lugarnan. one overall {A total of} of 120 police owing to participa in the razzianan here.

according ministerio publico, the personanan cu owing to worde deteni monday is worde sospecha of participa at one organizacion criminal cu is dedica his self at trafico internacional of drugs. the accion here is result of one investigacion of recherche samenwerkingsteam (rst) aruba cu have enough time andando y cu owing to worde institui bao guia of ministerio publico. one overall {A total} of 6 person more owing to worde deteni bao suspicion of is permanece ilegal on aruba.

rst owing to achieve refuerzo of one great cantidad of colega of cuerpo policial aruban y also of cuerpo of aduana. expertonan dutch on territory financiero y digital also owing to give they sosten at the accion here. the team of aresto also owing to worde envolvi for locual is deal the aresto of some person cu is worde considera arm y dangerous.

mirando the magnitud of the accion, the team of aresto of aruba owing to achieve refuerzo of coleganan of the team of aresto of curaçao. in cuadro of buscamento of coin y drugs scondi owing to haci usage of cachonan of korps landelijke politiediensten (klpd) cu is specialmente entrena for haci this.

—caso at nuñe—
the agentenan of arestatie team owing to using one explosivo for rebenta the door for so enter inside in the cas where 2 person of edad live. the hendenan here owing to take away one great susto! he in the cas cu owing to fly arise spanta y because; cualkier comerciante cu is defende his wife y cas past owing to happen hand for his pistol y owing to los 1 tiro without know cu is deal of police. for suerte the ball {bullet} not owing to alcansa none oficial, y the hour ey numa gritando cu is police, he not owing to follow throw, y the oficialnan owing to core enter y owing to detene he l.e.m. of 63 year because; also his casa m.v.c. of 68 year. both owing to being take away at keep of police where eynan interogacion owing to start.       {I think this says that when LE used an explosive to open the door, resident L.E.M. fired a shot - not realizing it was the polis. No one was hurt. I also have the impression that either L.E.M. or M.V.C. might have called the cops before learning that they had dramatically arrived ... }

in the cas autoridad owing to succeed achieve 2 arm cualnan owing to being confisca. because; also owing to coy one great cantidad of comprobantenan of transaccionnan financiero y also 2 computer y one laptop for being investiga profundamente for know if the pareha here have part in the organizacion criminal. during oranan of afternoon one carpinte in servicio of cuerpo policial owing to come for take measure y haci the reparacion necesario for fix the door cu the oficialnan owing to rebenta.    {Some of the items were confiscated "for profound (?) investigation" to determine whether part of the criminal organization. Later in the afternoon, the polis came to measure in order to fix the door.}

—caso at cashero—
do not the cas here only the oficialnan owing to enter already cu they owing to bay at more adres. at cashero the same form of enter owing to being using where eynan owing to detene he {the man} h.r.m.o. of 41 year naci at colombia y his casa r.r. of 45 year both owing to being take away at keep of police also for interogacion while owing to cuminza cu one buskeda riguroso inside because; also abroad of the cas.

all two detenido of cashero was encarcela end for labamento of coin, y owing to happen some time in kia for esey. police owing to confisca one toyota hilux pickup y one toyota yaris also. mirando cu autoridad not owing to achieve locual they're buscando they owing to cuminza cu cobamento rond of cas at owing to ask one bobcat for help cu the cobamento y also owing to solicita presencia of some duanero for they come cu they cachonan for so help in the buskeda.

they owing to come cu stacanan cual they owing to perfora at various part of ground, for so see if they're achieve drugs bury in ground. they owing to rondia in the cura of cas, in one fundeshi in cercania y also after in full the cunuco. even on the piece hill owing to see they're march. but without result. while cu autoridad was ocupa one familiar stop pafo was blo bark cu they stop of lose they time not have nothing bury.

—caso sabana blanco—
at sabana blanco autoridad owing to descend bay at one compleho of apartment where eynan they owing to detene one person more y owing to confisca his car esta one bmw y at the apartment ey owing to bay cu several pertenencia y comprobante financiero.

—caso at picaron—
one another cas cu owing to being enter forzosamente is uno at picaron. daily paper owing to compronde cu ey owing to detene 3 another sospechoso more y owing to confisca several artefacto because; also owing to bay cu comprobantenan. have some cas more cu owing to being visit but for bienestar of the investigacion, daily paper do not menciona more adres where owing to bay haci detencion.

the investigacion is follow now for so achieve proof of locual they're being sospecha for so break one another near of crimen organiza. the other sospechosonan cu owing to worde deteni for interogacion is

r.a.b.m. of 28 year of edad,
f.r.a. of 50 year of edad,
m.k.k. of 28 year of edad, y
j.a.c. of 36 year of edad.

{Mentioned previously in the article:
l.e.m., 63 - nuñe
m.v.c., 68 - nuñe
h.r.m.o., 41 - cashero
r.r., 45 - cashero
These are the eight detained}

Also mentioned are -
1 person at Sabana Blanco (BMW confiscated), and 3 at Picaron - not sure how they fit in.

{AND --}

during night previous to one another entrance violento owing to being haci at one hotel where owing to detene one aruban y 2 foreigner. but hour is so far daily paper will publica they photograph together cu more detaye of the another caso ey.

I *think* it is very interesting that there is no mention of this gangs 'name'... no cartel affiliation. You can not run a drug empire without the help of a cartel.

Ok, here's what I'm thinking.

I believe these 8 are part of a cartel. They have to be. Two smucks buying drugs for re-sale is a different story. This group is working on a grand scale.

As we all know the second in command of the Norte Valle Cartel was caught in Brazil about two months ago. He had undergone facial surgery to hide his true identity and voice recognition software was used to confirm who he was. In his possession was about 2 million in cash and he and his wife were living in a luxury gated condo complex.

ok next -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481281&in_page_id=1811

The Coke-Father: How justice finally caught up with one of the world's most wanted drugs baron
By ANDREW MALONE - More by this author » Last updated at 23:24pm on 11th September 2007

Even by the bloodsoaked standards of Colombia's ruthless drug barons, "Don" Diego Montoya stood out as a man who would stop at nothing to get his own way.

Also known as Senor de la Guerra - 'Mr War' - he once ordered the execution of 35 members of a rival crime family, including pregnant women and young children, gunning them down at a summer picnic before arranging their bodies in a pyramid and setting them ablaze.

But the reign of Colombia's socalled "boss of bosses" - responsible for half of all cocaine smuggling, and the world's second most wanted criminal after Osama Bin Laden - came to an undignified end last night after he was captured at a remote farmhouse wearing only his underpants.

Jubilant U.S. and Colombian officials announced that Montoya, the gruff, 17- stone head of the country's Norte Valley Cartel, had surrendered after being cornered by U.S.-backed special forces at his mountain hide-out in the west of the Central American country.

After a secret surveillance operation on the farm for the past two months, using techniques pioneered by Britain's SAS, commandos launched the raid just before dawn and seized Montoya along with an uncle and three other cartel members.

Manuel Santos, the Colombian defence minister, told a news conference in the Colombian capital, Bogota, that Montoya was responsible for 1,500 "confirmed" killings - many other bodies have never been found - during his 14-year career as boss of the country's most violent gang.

<snipped>

-looks to me like this cartel was being dismantled one chuck at a time and the Mansur Clan could be part of the Norte Valle Catrel.

NYC Lover posted a Dutch article translation -- appears to be the same story.

Thanks again NYC_Lover.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2171.new#new


criminele organisatie opgerold op Aruba

ORANJESTAD - Op Aruba is tijdens een grootschalige politieactie een internationale criminele organisatie in verdovende middelen opgerold. Daarbij werden acht personen aangehouden die zich zouden bezighouden met afpersing, witwashandel en de in- en uitvoer van cocaïne en heroïne. Verder zijn zes illegalen opgepakt.
 
Meer dan 120 politiemensen hebben op tien locaties huiszoekingen gedaan, onder meer bij een advocatenkantoor. Ook de woning van een telg van de in het verleden van drugshandel beschuldigde Arubaanse familie Mansur, werd doorzocht. Bij de aanhouding van een van de verdachten is door deze met een vuurwapen geschoten. Niemand raakte daarbij gewond. 

Vanwege de omvang van de actie die als 'vuurwapen gevaarlijk' te boek stond, werd de hulp ingeroepen van agenten van het Curaçaose arrestatieteam. Ook werd gebruik gemaakt van financiële en digitale experts uit Nederland en drugshonden van het Korps landelijke politiediensten.

Onderzoek

Bij de huiszoekingen zijn nog onbekende hoeveelheden wapens, geld en drugs in beslag genomen. Enkele auto's werden eveneens geconfisqueerd. De actie vloeit voort uit een langer durend onderzoek van het Recherche Samenwerkingsteam (RST) op Aruba.


Translation:
International criminal organisation closed down spent on Aruba.
ORANJESTAD - on Aruba during a large-scale police force action an international criminal organisation in narcotic substances has been closed down. Thereby eight persons were apprehended who would occupy themselves with extortion, blank was trade and in - and export of cocaine and heroin. Furthermore six resistance workers have been taken up. More than 120 policemen on ten locations searchings have done, including at a lawyer's office. Also the house of a telg of the in the past of drug trafficking accused arubaanse family Mansur, were searched. At the adjournment of of suspected by these with a fire weapon it has been shot. Nobody touched thereby wounded. Because of the scope of the action which as a ' fire weapon dangerously ' book appeared, the aid was called in of agents of the Curaçaose special squad. Also was used financial and digital experts from the Netherlands and drugshonden the korps rural police forces. Research At searchings still unknown quantities of weapons, money and drugs have been confiscated. Some cars were also confiscated. The action flows a longer lasting research of investigator cooperation team (RST) on Aruba.

http://www.nu.nl/news/1248053/20/Internationale_criminele_organisatie_opgerold_op_Aruba.html

From Scrux:

FierlJepper

Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 99
Location: Netherlands
 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Interesting news about Aruba in the Dutch press today:

Quote:



Clearly another tangible indication that the "drugs house" theories are not that unrealistic at all. Wonder if Joran was friends with the offspring of the Mansurs.

Mark these words: I wouldn't be surprised if we'll soon hear some "unexpected side effect from this operation" news about Natalee...   

Yep  :wink:

Wow!  :shock:

How are these Mansurs related to Jossy? Or are they?

LOL I heard that!  In my sleep no less.  :lol:

Good morning Monkeys! So where is this Club Arias located??

FYI - Larry King Live is October 3rd not October 2nd

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/lkl.jpg)

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/

I need a favor please...would someone post a link to the Brickell Bay stuff located in Miami? I can't find it.  Also, concerning the bangbus info, who are the other names mentioned with bangbus?  I am having another senior moment again.  If any has the info I would greatly appreciate it...thanks. 

Savaneta and the property is or was owned by Astrid van Rijn  :wink:  The "club" owner is Arias Schwartz

Can I tango in here too?  (Just wondering...don't want to get in trouble..CBB's evil twin is still lurking.)  I am trying to refrain from asking the questions...I really am.

Thanks Klass! Very intersting . . .

YES

Lius Mansur is believed to be the brother of Jossy.

.

Well, Klaas, that explains the schedule conflict I mentioned to you.
So, Beth is on the show Oct. 3, not Oct. 2. That makes more sense.
Maybe Beth just made a typo in her e-mail or was just off by a day.

So, everyone who marked your calendars, the date appears to be
Oct. 3.

We should think of some good questions to send to the show.

Is this club tied to the drug busts?  I am missing the connection.

Did some of the raids take place there?

.

This club Arias is on the property that we have photos of where the pics of Lorenzo and Astrid were? Looks the same...so instead of just selling the house they turned it into a club?  Or....was it a club all along?   Everyone wanted to make you think these clubs were crack houses and such...but they are nice, upper class places.  Where you can party and obtain drugs and make porn movies and on and on.  Yes, I could Shango here...I will refrain for now.

Here is my question for LKL show:

"Do the Dutch police consider Natalee's case to be a homicide
and is Joran van der Sloot still the prime suspect?"

We already know the answer but it's good to make sure
the general public realizes this.

And the property is not leased to this Arias Schwartz at all but is in fact still in the control of Astrid?

Interesting.  Perhaps these are the "parties" attributed to Lorenzo.  I have never been able to reconcile "reclusive" with "parties" in my own mind, however. 

And of course, prostitution is legal in Aruba so whatever is offered at this club is likely well within their legal framework which allows for just about anything it would seem.

.

 :wink:  Yep, thought about you when I saw that!  I've added to the Media thread as well.

Sounds like it's been a CLUB for a while.  She may have sold her interest in the property..not sure.

Lala's - please check the Musing thread.  I posted regarding your shortcut

TO:  The jackasses at Refugees

What you just attributed to me was a post by FierlJepper at Scrux. 

So this club happened after Natalee disappeared and the property has been sold or leased to other people? 

NO - the club happened before Natalee went to Aruba and was operational when Natalee was there.

Actually - let me retract what I said.  We don't know for sure yet when the actual CLUB ARIAS started. 

Yes, that is a very good idea, J4N, I think we should ask even things we know the answers to just as you suggested so that it will give Beth maximum chance to update others on the situation.

Most of the people I have discussed this with in person think J2K were tried and convicted.

People not following closely often miss everything.

.

Schwartz is a kinda common name - - - but!

******* posted about it being new and we do know Astrid is reported to have remarried and possibly returned to the Netherlands so on what is it based the club was operational when Natalee was in Aruba?  I thought Astrid was still living in the house at that time.

.

Anna - the above doesn't necessarily mean the "Club" began in July 2006, it only means the domain name was registered then. 

Club Arias isn't in the Aruba Chamber registry even.  It very well may have been a "Club" before Natalee and is still now only with a new name and ownership.

The bottom line here is that speculation of various clubs (private clubs by invitation only) has always been a hot topic on here.  Do they exist or not?  We have talked and argued about it for two years now.  Whether this club existed when Natale was there is only important if you think this could be where she was taken.  We know that Lorenzo's name was one of the first mentioned concerning private "rave" parties.  It was the Aruban posters that were floating these stories within days of Natalee's disappearance.  So that tells me there is some credence to these stories.  I know many think Lorenzo is secondary and some of us think he's highly involved.  There are coincidences that could lead one to believe that he is indeed involved.  It's all a matter of connecting the dots. Regardless, those private party places exist on Aruba and most likely they involve gambling and money laundering and a whole host of other underworld things.
 

Lala's I agree 100%

Yes -- I believe they do exist lala's.

And Mr Arias (and his wife Flory) seem to have a Florida connection -- don't have much time this morning to check it out, though. Hopefully later (unless someone else gets to it first)

IMO -- This is EXACTLY what Freddy's brother -- Ernesto -- 'arranges' in South Beach. That is...before he disappeared (or changed his name :wink:)

connecting....the...dots....

Well stated lala's!

I would like for Larry King to ask her about the @#$@&%* phone call(s). I heard Beth say there were NO CALLS, with my own lying ears :lol: - but apparently everybody needs to hear it with their own lying ears  :lol:  :cool: 

Also would like to know if she actually understood C Croes to say he was a psychic, which is as crazy as anything I've heard about this case.

Those may be too "trivial" however ...

Do you believe the investigators from The Netherlands will make a case against the 3 known suspects - or any other suspects?

Those 3 ARE still suspects, aren't they? (J4N's version is fine too)

Is an International Law approach available?

Do you think you have helped shaped people's perception about traveling, especially outside the United States?

Good questions, there Ms. Marple.

I think you should send them on over to the show.

Trixie posted this & these links @ Scrux.


There is a well known party house on Savaneta....

http://i9.tinypic.com/4m2yano.jpg

http://i6.tinypic.com/62p1lir.jpg
~~~~

These are photos of Astrid's home, I believe.

How does a volkswagon dealer on a small island own such an extravagant home? Or did Astrid buy this with insurance money after Van Rijns death. How did Lorenzo afford such a home as he has? As far as I know no one has ever said he "works at a real job" for a living.

This looks like the same structure as Klaasend posted last night on page 5....that's what I think you are saying GEL....I can see a car dealer owning a nice home, but as far as Lorenzo having a 'real' job...I don't recall...just cars, bikes, drugs, craziness & acquaintances.

I have always believed Freddy's and his brother are involved.  We know Freddy was but have no confirmation that his slug of a brother Ernesto was.

I remember reading a comment Ernesto made in an article I read.  He said something like in this type of business in order to survive you have to have connections and I have the connections.

Connecting the dots indeed.

When I read these initials, Freddy & family came to mind:

F.R.A. (50 aña)

From BFN-re questions for Dave and Robin:

{{edited because I firmly believe there is no place for a question like that in a family friendly forum - even if the original question wasn't posted at SM}}


Robin wrote:
I don't mind if Beth uses the name Holloway.  Matt has not mentioned it, but I think it is best for him since she is not married.  Don't most people that have remarried and the divorce take the last name back they had for the sake of their children?

GEL - Thanks but that is a question that should never have been asked.  It should have not been allowed to stay up.  The purpose of the question was to bash Beth.

Well, I would be shocked if there were not any number of private clubs in Aruba.  But when Astrid's house was listed for sale, it didn't say anything about it being a club of any sort.  I think lots of enhancements have been made since she sold it.

I thought The Lions Den was the private club of choice for those that promote that line of thought. 

I have also never thought that Natalee was at a private club of any sort.  I believe that idea came from those who want anybody except Joran held responsible for her disappearance.

Just my opinion but it doesn't seem anything likely to me.  And the disinformation agents were at it from the first week.  Many of the very first posts coming out of Aruba were later totally discredited.

The more time that passes, my circle of suspects keeps shrinking instead of growing.  I even suspect that Paulus and Joran handled the original disposal themselves to prevent the involvement of others.

My bead is still on J2K+Paulus. 

JMO

.

I will agree that the Kalpoes didn't handle the disposal.  They were busy at home washing Deepak's car along with another unknown person.

I feel there was one person who helped Paulus and Joran with the disposal and the one person is Freddy.  JMO.

I also agree with you all. Just the fact that they all don't have statements that match sure points to small groups. The nice thing is here they will all get the same accommodations  eventually.

I know Klaas..I just thought it was good to see what Robin did finally say.

Yep I thought that part was good too.  Thanks for posting Robins answer!

You are welcome, anytime. :wink:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=131637359

Is Deepak in the US now?  Just came across this a little while ago.

Thanks!

No, he's in Aruba.  He has had Miami on there for a while, probably just trying to be "cute".

I saw a recent log in for it, that's why I was wondering.  I guess someone here would know if he WAS in the states.

Well let's put it this way, when KLPD was at his house and we saw photos of him being taken away...he had Miami on his myspace site then as well. 

Sounds like wishful thinking....

San,
I could go with Freddie except for the fact that he sure dropped a dime on Joran saying Joran was telling him about Natalee being missing on Monday before her flight really left.  That doesn't fit with his really being guilty of nearly as much as Joran but still, I think he would have lied and said Joran told him that on Tuesday instead if he were deeply involved as Joran.

BTW, Melody also posted in her posts at RWV that as far as she know Joran didn't have a half brother or step brother or anything like that for which Lorenzo could qualify. 

So since Freddie hung Joran out to dry more so than anybody, now I don't know.  I think he is a scumbag and into trying to make and market porn and all that but am not sure if he was involved in this or not. 

If he was really spending the night/crashing at Joran's then he was for sure.  And at the least, he is very close by and might be a first contact in case of need but still, he did say Joran told him on Monday that "the girl" was missing so this tends to throw me off his track somewhat.

It could have been any combination of the PIMPS I suppose and not sure how we can ever know until one of them wakes up and decides to stop covering for Joran.

JMO

forgive them Klaas. :shock:..the idiots can't read

iirc -- Joran told Freddy the 'I left her on the beach story'.

IMO, that was Freddy's role. Joran used him to start the 'he left her on the beach -- and dat's da truth' story.

Up until that time -- nat was left at the Holiday Inn. But Joran told Freddy 'the truth' and counted on Freddy to tell anyone who asked.

jmho

I am glad you remeoved the original question...even though most of us know what it said....and I am HAPPY to see Robin's reply....it was what I hoped she would say.

But Freddie said Joran told him that on Monday before Joran should have even known Natalee was missing.

.

Yes -- he did. I agree.

But what did he tell Freddy on that Monday? That 'he left Natalee on the beach'. That is what Freddy has in his PV. Per Joran's book.

Yet that night, Joran told Beth that they 'dropped her off at the Holiday Inn'.

Freddy was the first to hear 'I left her on the beach'. He heard that on the 30th.

I think Freddy was questioned on June 12 and 13.


.

Anna -- I'm not sure if you've read the Jonathan45 posts at Scrux.

He goes into a lot of interesting 'disconnects'  like this, imo.

The posts give me a lot to think about. And they're based on the things we think we know  :-?

I think that Joran was attempting to frame the Kalpoes with this ploy.  He, Joran, would tell the beach story while they, the Kalpoes, stuck to the one about HI as instructed by Paulus, causing the Kalpoes to be caught in the lie instead of Joran.

Yes, Joran could have been counting on Freddie for back up, if I understand what you are saying, just as you suggest.  But there is no way it is to Joran's advantage to know Natalee was missing by the time school was out and he supposedly told Freddie this.  And to be so troubled, etc. about what to do.

Also the "they panicked when she didn't wake up" doesn't help Joran's cause much either.

So I am not quite sure what to make of Freddie's involvement.  If he had said Joran told him on Tuesday it seems it would have been better for Joran.

I have only read some of those.  Are they all located at one place on that site? 

I think that's why Jonathan45 refers to Joran's book as 'Joran's confession' 


I've learned more about sociopaths in the past 2 years than I had ever heard in my entire life. I guess I was a little naive aboout that particular flavor of personality disorder.

Yes -- the 'bike thread' (or something very similar).

You might enjoy. He also thinks Joran 'framed' Deepak. Intentionally. From the start.

anna, i'm with you on this. jvds probably got some help from his friends who also frequent these party houses but i don't think natalee was alive long enough that night to attend.  i truly believe natalee got ancy about not going directly to hi. and started raising cain.  she was killed resisting their efforts to subdue her.
dennisintn

I was just checkin out one of the Promo video's for Club Arias..At the end of the Video two of the people resemble Joran Van Der Sloot and Chuck Di Perri..Hard to tell since it's since it only showed them for a second..What do you think??

http://www.clubarias.com/mediatwo.html

******* -- I tried :lol:

But someone will have to 'freeze frame' it. I thought I saw GVC, too  :lol: :lol: Or someone blonde, anyway :lol:

I did have a vision --  of some of the faces changing on some of those dancers, though  :lol:

I'll see if I can copy the video to my hard drive.  If I can do that I can stop it and do a screen capture.

I am watching it in quicktime and the resolution is terrible and it's dark..It will be tough to say for sure.. :-?

Well, that site has just never impressed me much, I guess because people like Glenda and Medley are so fond of it.
Example:

Glenda- 03-09-2006


sunmoonstars wrote:
Glenda, isn't judge Smid the one the family thought was pro Joran?

I thought they considered everyone who doesn't believe the lies is pro Joran. 

My advice would be to go to Scux.com and be a judge based on the evidence.   Judge Smidt does not have to release him from suspicion until 2 years is up! If Joran could prove that he was not the last person with Natalee, the judge would most likely release him, less than that, I don't think so.

Not sure.  Is this what you were referring to?  Can you tell me exactly where in the video timewise you see it?

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/Arias1.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/Arias2.jpg)

Didn't IgSigs just post that the Dutch investigators had agreed with Beth that plenty of evidence was presented to the judge for holding them but he released them anyway?  From Beth's book?

It just goes in circles.

.

Yup that is the person I was reffering to..Will be almost impossible to get a good pic of that vid..I just thought it looked a bit like Joran with those eyebrows and shape of head..

(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3229/joranpr1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Sadly, I agree with this Dennis.  Either that or they gave her far too much of something in an attempt to drug her with the same results. 

That's why Deepak went straight home and started trying to mess up the investigation.  Something bad had already happened. 

.

Police van conversation between Deepak and Satish
22 June 2005 (P 179-181 in book)
D: I’ve told them that they should arrest Freddy as well.
S: The three of us have been arrested, but he just knows the truth.
D: I’ve told them to arrest Koen and Sander as well. f***ing all of them. From me, they won’t get any hint, as long as the truth keeps hanging. None of them are friends, except for us. Do you get it?

(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3505/image85oz9.jpg)
DOESN'T IT LOOK LIKE PAULUS WITH ASTRID AND LORENZO?

(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9863/image86jd1.jpg)
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9241/image88ko5.jpg)
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8481/image89rf9.jpg)

Kermit - I've always thought that looked like Paulus with them.  Very few agree with me though.

Afternoon Monkeys,
 Klaas, IMO in the video, the guy in the white T-shirt looks like LVR to me!!!!!    :shock: :shock:
Good stuff, guys, back to lurking

Hi Hummingbird!  Yes, could be LVR too..just too hard to get a clear screen capture.

Klass, FWIW......I agree, I always thought the guy in the pic was Paulus. 

Helen

Thanks Helen - at least that makes 3 of us now, LOL  :lol:

or...
Freddy was at the Sloot house when Joran whispered...I can't wake her up....Freddy checked and told Joran to send K2 home then said we'll drop her by the beach....down by the huts (because no one is there)...Jeep like truck seen by fishermen. 
Freddy could have assisted in the creation of the story and by the pool, they decided they'd say the HI.

For whichever one at scrux that is trying to find a location.

Remember this:

Author: Suds (---.phil.east.verizon.net)
Date:   06-21-05 15:29


I posted these two tips on a news station but will pass them on again to be certain they get to the proper authorities...
1. While visiting Aruba Feb 05 we went to Arashi beach one day. We met a young man I believe to be Jordan Van Der Sloot who was walking a large dog on the beach. My two kids were very excited to see the dog and enjoyed giving him a few pats as they love dogs. In the ensuing conversation this individual commented that he was house sitting and therefore caring for the owners dog as well. I wondered last night, if in fact the police and others investigating Natalees disapearance were aware that this person may have had access to an unoccupied residence in that area, where a crime could have taken place.

http://tinyurl.com/2ogbcd

aruban message board

That looks like Paulus to me so I guess I will give you my usual answer.  I agree :lol:

If this were true Joran's words would have been this "Shit this effin bitch won't wake up".  I don't ever see Joran whispering.

I have often thought Freddy was the originator of the dropped her off at the beach story.  But that is all it is a story.

Natalee didn't wake up because Joran hit her repeatedly or with an object.

Freddy is just as untouchable as Lorenzo is.

Just heard on the news we have another storm in the gulf of Mexico which if intensifies by morning will be named tropical storm "Lorenzo" :shock:

No wonder Karin Jannsen was so hushhush throughout the investigation under their so-called "super secretive" Dutch system that we have learned leaks like a rusted bucket but only when they want it to. She would have had a very hard time explaining her actions.[/b]
[/quote]

it sure makes me wonder why the sloots phones were being tapped before natalee was reported missing.  i would assume that the boys were warned by paulus about phone tape, body wires, and all that stuff at the same time they made up the story about dropping her off at hi. that was on monday, paulus would have been following his own advice and not incriminating himself about her at all.  dompig said it took 3 days before the boys were put under surveillance and wiretaps were installed.  is keeping a.l.e. secrets about other investigations important enough to destroy the investigation of natalee's disappearance and probable murder?
dennisintn

Oh great

looks like LVR to me too.

yup.

That would work, too. If Freddy was already there.

I'm just not too sure about the 'beach' part, though. At least not that . Alhough anything is still possible (unfortunately).

Klassend, San, Helen - I think it's Paulus too.

Fish sticks at the head.

we need a Robots shout out about now.

DUTCH WILL GET'EM

She was buddies with Paulus
Jan van der Straaten was buddies with Paulus
Arlene Ellis-Shipper was buddies with Paulus


fish stinks at the head

Beth can take my name.

Mrs. Beth Kermit the frog.

WARNING - RUMOR - SPECULATION = AT RU

Arubatoday's online site has been down a couple of days.  Speculation by Trixie at RU based upon some "hints" by Glenda yesterday is that it's being investigated.  Warning - speculation only (or wishful thinking on my part  :wink:)

Caso Natalee Procesverbaal di polis hulandes ta mustra ‘NAN’ A DRENTA PANICO ORA CU NATALEE A KEDA ‘PASSED OUT’

http://www.diario-aruba.com/2006/12/6/

++++++++++++++++++++++++


'THEY' WENT INTO PANIC WHEN NATALEE REMAINED 'PASSED OUT'

Oranjestad (AAN) As promised to the peoples of Aruba and the U.S.A., DIARIO will continue with its investigation on the missing girl, Natalee Holloway, and will publish legitimate documents accompanied by analysis and questions that sooner or later will bring out the truth.

Today, the investigative team of DIARIO is publishing part of an official report given by a Dutch police officer who came to Aruba to interrogate Joran van der Sloot among others.

The Dutch police officer states that Joran van Der Sloot is aware of the possibility that exists that one day the American authorities will ask for his extradition due to the fact that the missing girl (Natalee) is an American Citizen. Joran's reaction was that he began to laugh!!!

Now Joran began to laugh because he was afraid or because he felt reassured because he was told beforehand that "no body, no crime"?

From this same official report one can deduct that Joran again throws the ball in Deepak Kalpoe's corner, because he tells the Dutch officer that if they interrogate Deepak in the same manner that they interrogated Joran, then Deepak for sure will tell the truth. Which truth? How come the Dutch police officer did not ask Van der Sloot about which truth he was referring to?

Joran also said that if some weeks before they had interrogated him in the aforementioned manner, then the truth would have come out much faster!

Again the question remains: to what truth is Joran referring to? The supposed truth that he left Natalee behind all alone on the beach? That is the truth that he so heavily sustained during so many weeks with his mouth closed, turn all sorts of story around, remain without speaking, become fresh with the police interrogators, come every time with a different story to contradict other stories, and that show that he had been lying from the beginning?

The question now is: what is Joran referring to with this 'different form of interrogation'?

How come they did not continue with this 'different form of interrogation' of the suspects, to determine what happened to Natalee and where Natalee is?

The culminating part of this procesvebaal (official report) is that when the police officer mentioned the following: "I, De Ruiter, mentioned to Van der Sloot that there was no interest in lying to him about this fact (he is referring to the declaration of Freddy Zedan Arambatzis) because the importance of the declaration made by the witness Zedan Arambatzis, was directed towards the fact that Joran had already on the 30th of May told Freddy the story about the Holliday Inn and that Joran told Freddy also that "they" went into panic when Natalee remained "passed out"!

Everyone can read today what was put black on white "Dat ze" went into panic, and the "Ze" here in Dutch shows that more than one person was involved in that part about entering into panic, because "ze" is plural.

There is nowhere in this official report that Joran hurriedly contradicted the Dutch police when reference was made to "They" entered into panic and said that there were no other people involved!!!

Seeing that the Dutch officer himself mentions that "they" entered into panic, according to the declaration of Freddy Zedan, then there were more than one person involved and everyone can reach his own conclusion that Freddy Zedan knows those who he himself referred to as "they", or in Papiamento "nan".
 
"They" went into panic when Natalee remained passed out!!! This means that more than one person was present when Natalee remained passed out and where are these people who were with Natalee when she remained passed out?
 
On the beach like "they" want the police and everyone else to believe, or elsewhere?  Do they who belong to the group referred to as "they" realize now that the circle is slowly closing around "them"? For those who understand what this means, few words are necessary!

The strange part is that Joran declared to the Dutch policeman based on his questions, that he had recently spoken to the witness Freddy Zedan Arambatzis, and that during that conversation, Joran asked Freddy why he mentioned the date of 30 May, and Van der Sloot told the policeman that he (Freddy) just mentioned a date and that the witness in truth heard the story from Van der Sloot himself the day after Natalee disappeared.

Here’s another point in the investigation that proves very controversial and even questions severely the fact that a suspect in police custody or is under investigation, even has the possibility and facility to speak to one of the witnesses, that is Freddy Zedan Arambatzis.

In which part of the world can a suspect under police investigation for the disappearance of someone, get the possibility to speak to a witness who is his friend?
On which day did Joran speak with Freddy, where and who gave Joran (while in police custody) the great privilege to speak to a witness who can declare in his favor?

Reading the expositions of the Dutch police officer, who mentioned extradition to Joran, sources in the U.S. are indicating that they are waiting for the opportune moment to ask for the extradition of Joran van der Sloot, the brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, Freddy Arambatzis, and other names that have not yet been made public.

Preparations can be under way to petition internationally for an order of arrest via the Interpol for those who the U.S. wants to extradite because, as those sources say, they will get them any part of the world and will bring them to justice; in Aruba they won’t get as many years in prison like in the U.S.

++++++++++++++++++++

gwen wrote:



Glenda responds:


Heli responds:


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/happydance.gif)(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/happydance.gif)(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/happydance.gif)

Hi Klaas,

Maybe they are going out of business.  :wink:

klaas,

Can you purdy please fix my settings so they default back to this thread when I post?  That would be  :cool:.

Done!  I keep meaning to have Dugga set it to default that way.  I can't imagine anyone wanting it the other way.

Thank you maam'

I saw a couple peeps got their books early.  Anyone else have any luck?

Glenda responds:


Quote
I wish I could tell you, actually it's quite telling.  And for the goofballs responsible, I can assure that the only thing they will find are the threats coming in and not a one going out.

Maybe the outgoing ones are on that stolen harddrive... :roll:

If the incoming threats are less than a year old, we will know.   :-x

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=85353641

:idea:

If Renfro's recent dribble is any indicator...an overworked spell-check system likely crashed the whole site.  :wink:

John Chemaly...in honor of Aruba Today..

FREDDY KNOWS!!!

+++++++++++++++

Freddy Zedan
Witness Statement
06/12/05

HOLIDAY INN DROPOFF

Monday afternoon on the 30th, Joran came to my house. He told me that the previous day, Sunday, he had befriended a girl in the Holiday Inn casino and that she had invited him to come to Carlos and Charlies that evening.

After that they drove to the hotel. When the girl had pushed open the door of the car, she fell to the ground. Joran wanted to help her but she shoved him away.


BEACH DROP OFF

The next day, Tuesday May 31st 2005 in the afternoon, I was with Joran at the raquetclub. Joran looked worried. He asked me if I could remember what he had said the previous day about the girl. I told him yes. The girl had gone missing. The FBI had been to his house during the night but he had not been home. His father had called him to find out where he was, Joran said that he was in the Raddison Casino. He told he that after that phone call he was called on the phone by Deepak and that Deepak picked him up a few minutes later. They drove to Joran's house. The FBI and the girls family were at his house. After that Joran told me that Deepak, Satish and himself did not drop off the girl at the Holiday Inn Hotel, but that the four of them drove to the beach at the north side of the Marriot Hotel. The girl had fallen several times on the way to the beach. Joran told me that at some point she "no longer came around/no longer regained consciousness" and that they had left her on the beach. He also told me that he had left his gym/sporting shoes on the beach. After Joran had told me this, I asked him why he had left her there. He answered me that at that moment he had not known what to do. Joran told me that after this he was dropped off at home by Deepak and Satish.

Translation Credit: Rammstein

Or she spilled her rum and coke on the server.   :P

Wow, cool thanks!

I agree Janet.  Freddy knows.  He is supposed to be a Catholic.  How can he live with the guilt everyday.  He must not attend mass anymore.

Windy City - in case you are interrested, please check this link  :wink:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2051.msg282795#msg282795

 :salut:

Might be a little light in the loafers, but he is easy on the eyes.

He is nice looking

more like straight l5l rum like she accuses mb'ers of drinking day and night.
dennisintn

Windy ... there are many who are involved in the events of that fateful morning ... Paulus ... Joran ... Deepak ... Satish ... the sons of the elite.  There are many who are involved in the ensuring coverup at all levels of the Aruban/Dutch administration.  Then there is the corrupt judiciary.

However ... it only takes one to get a conscience ... it only takes one to bow and turn his/her life over to God and ... reveal all and ... seek forgiveness from Natalee's family for the H--- on Earth that they have been put through.  Windy ... on that day ... in God's perfect timing ... the truth will be exposed and ... Natalee Holloway will rightly receive a measure of the justice she has been denied and ... the truth also implies that her parents will receive a measure of closure ... a measure of closure that will allow them to move on.
 
Janet

++++++++++++++++++++


Art Wood
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 2, 2005

WOOD: ..... The reason this case could still be solved is because there are so many people involved in Natalee's disappearance and in the disposal of her body. When somebody talks, they're going to all go down. This is like a house of cards.

Excellent momemtum here with the KLPD and ALE working together - on big cases - and making arrests.

Bad news for Lorenzo and Luis ... good news for all else. 'Cept J2k.  IMO

Igsigs - I agree :lol: Wonder if Chamaly is one of those detained?  Doesn't Chamaly own Arubatoday and Bondia?

she had an affair with Paulus...

Want a source?

Rob - do you have a reliable source that KJ had an affair with PVDS?

Yes please.

Why?   :2doh:

TJ Ward.

Did TJ Ward state it as fact or as rumor on the island?

she had an affair with Paulus...

Want a source?
[/quote]


Give us a hint. Was this when he was a sorry fat pig before Natalee went missing, or when he became an even sorrier fat pig afterwards?

I believe he does. So we have an initial match? I am gonna hafta read back...

I remind everyone here TJ was in the FBI for 25 years. The person that gave him the informants (4) is the same person missing in Kish Iran and worked Natalee's case until they were shut out on Aruba. This person tracked a killer to Kish responsible for the murder of an Iranian dissident in Maryland... look it up if you don't believe me. It won't be hard to prove I am telling the truth.

FACT

Rob -  :lol: :lol:

From Heli at RU:

Heli Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:18 pm   

Here's a newsflash from MonKKKeydom:

Paul van der Sloot had an affair with Arlene Ellis-Schipper.

Rob says he has a source   

FACT

H.R.M.O. (41 aña) - I'm wondering if this is an Oduber 
R.R. (45 aña)
L.E.M. (63 aña)
M.V.C. (68 aña)
R.A.B.M. (28 aña)
F.R.A. (50 aña)
M.K.K. (28 aña)
J.A.C. (36 aña) (but the myspace says he's 34)

I like it!  Do I need to do anything to set it up? 

Thanks!

SINCE WE'RE TALKIN' BIMBOS HERE - I SAID JANSEN

Rob ... I realize that this rumor has been circulating Natalee forums since very early on in the investigation.  I have googled and googled and googled (sounds obscene) but ... have been unable to come up with any credible backup and ... nobody else has been able to provide me with any backup.  However ... today you put a name to the source of the rumor.  I would appreciate if you could provide a link to the words conveyed by TJ Ward in regards to an alleged affair between Paulus and Karin Janssen.

Rob ... if this is true ... as Beth Holloway Twitty would say ... "Greta this is huge".

Janet

These guys from SA are always a couple of years older than they say.  Just ask reps from the Little League World Series.   :wink:

If they can prove that this is true this is the type of information that would shock the world.  To have a prosecutor who is having an affair with a married man whose son murdered an 18 year old girl and not remove herself from the case is a criminal act to me.

There are no links to a telephone conversation.

I normally do not give info from a source. However, It is a fact according to TJ and to the person abducted in Kish.

Have Dana ask him.

I feel confidant he will tell what he has told me. I fear nothing!

Yeah, what percentage of MySpace pages have the persons real age?

Glenda Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:30 pm    



How about John A. Chemaly  :lol:

Is he not the guy seen in the photos with Julie?  He sure looks like him.

Rob ... I misunderstood.  I did not realize that TJ Ward had shared this information with you personally.

Janet

can't wait to see where Patrick fits in!

I'm sure Red will call him. And verify what I am saying! It's a FP!

This is a few years old...not sure if it's the same Jr.

http://www.arubadining.com/newsletter/archives/newsletter_spring_04/newsletter_spring04.html

NEW AGA BOARD OF DIRECTORS 2004 ELECTED

The AGA elected its Board of Directors at the General Assembly held in early February.  Members expressed satisfaction over the direction taken by the 2003 board under the leadership of Hubert Solagnier, General Manager of Amazonia Churrascaria, and re-elected them. The current board consists of President Hubert Solagnier, Vice President Roy Leitch (Waterfront Crabhouse), Treasurer Ann Brown (Tierra del Sol) and members at large Rudsel Maduro (Iguana Joe’s), Douglass Markus (Cuba’s Cookin’), John Chemaly, Jr. (Valentino’s), and Gerry Mans (La Cabana). 

just so everyone knows - In this conversation with TJ he revealed several thing (only one of which I posted on my blog).

The others I did not feel were relevant. I shared some of this info with Klaas at the time.

I thought we already knew she was having the affair.  I know I heard it here first...well maybe not here first...but I know we talked about it.  I was here that day. 

Yes, I remember the discussion here at SM too.

Thank goodness. I was worried I had been another dimension or something.   :roll:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/Chemaly1.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/Chemaly2.jpg)

Lively Case Discussion #666 7/26 - 7/27/2007
in LCD Archive

Lively Case Discussion #666 7/26 - 7/27/2007 by AZLady
...  asked Jossy about the Karen Janssen/PVDS affair? His response? ...
   36.9%    San    July 26, 2007, 09:01:53 PM
      Lively Case Discussion #665 7/25 - 7/26/2007
in LCD Archive

Lively Case Discussion #665 7/25 - 7/26/2007 by sb
...  a credible claim that yes indeed KJ and PVDS were having an affair.

That place is a  ...

By the way - the convo with TJ was at his digression. HE CALLED ME. He volunteered this info and I never even asked about it.

He was pissed off about the cocaine rumors and called me to see what I thought.

FACT

I knew I wasn't hallucinating again.  Thanks Muffy.

Does anyone know what lawyer's office with part of the raid?  It would be interesting to know what lawyer?

You didn't believe me this AM?  :lol:

His myspace was accessed today though...

Nope, not yet.  Hopefully we'll know more tomorrow.  Yes, it would be interresting to know  :wink:

If the recent arrests on Aruba are any indication...I think there will be more in the days to come.  Does anyone besides me think that Lorenzo's arrest earlier this year was connected?

Dayhiker- As I have always said...it's the corruption that needs exposed. Exposed that corruption and Natalee come home.

Per Glenda/Renfro:

John Chemaly Jr. is 34, not 36 and he has not been arrested and is not associated with those who were arrested yesterday.

Yep, I do think Lorenzo's arrest was connected.  Maybe he snitched?

Think about it. If TJ Ward has credible info that this is true, it stands to reason that he has passed this on to the FBI. This is just too big a bombshell for it not to be brought forth to the the public UNLESS this is just another thing being kept "secret" until they can bring down EVERYONE (including the government of Aruba).
The FBI Knows.
The U.S. State Department knows.
The KLPD knows.
The Netherlands Government knows.
Dave and Beth could know.

.....WE won't know until the "Big Fish" are taken down (down the road.)  :-|

If I were Joran right now - I would be crying for mommy.

again, is he in the party pictures with Julie?  Looks like him.

Rob
Did you say that TJ said there were others involved too?  How many do you think that would be?

I don't think so BMKY, but I'll take a look in a few minutes again. 

Glenda was asked why the Arubatoday site was down.  This is her rediculous answer:

Dayhiker- As I have always said...it's the corruption that needs exposed. Exposed that corruption and Natalee come home.
[/quote]


If they take down the corruption there won't be anybody left to run the country but real native Arubans.

If they take down the corruption there won't be anybody left to run the country but real native Arubans.


[/quote]

funny you mention that.... there are a few Arubans I am speaking to that would like a chance to make Aruba great again.

funny you mention that.... there are a few Arubans I am speaking to that would like a chance to make Aruba great again.
[/quote]


They couldn't be any worse than the white hineys running it now, and at least they would start with a clean sheet.

TJ never said how many or who... but did say we are looking at the right people... how's that?

I think the arrest may have been linked to the NH case but most everything involved in his arrest raised my suspicions...Hearing he was released after 18days and no future repurcussions doesnt make any sense either..Is that the same time the FBI was on the island?

I remember one evening TJ Ward was on one of the news shows with Steve Cohen.  During the show Cohen said something like when you find out that information make sure forward it on to us TJ :roll:.  I never saw TJ on another talk show since.

She seems upset that anyone would even ask her that question...wonder why?  :roll:

http://zoltanzion.blogspot.com/2007/05/tj-ward-interview-640-wgst.html

**Link may work with only Explorer**

"There are new developments in the Natalee Holloway disappearance. Dutch police are diving back into their investigation into the case. Randy and Spiff talked with Atlanta private investigator T.J. Ward about the news. He has spent a lot of time investigating the story".

caaaaussseeeee she's a Dutchbag..

Just seems odd that Lorenzo was such a secret, kept by many I might add, then he was all over the news with pics and all and then just as suddenly he's nowhere to be found.  Seems they had a lot on him and just let it pass...for some reason. 

Maybe we have been looking for Dirty Hand in all the wrong places.....think about Lorenzo and what has transpired recently...wonder if the walls are about to come tumbling down...I have refrained long enough...

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 10:18 pm
If the Alibi is broken by DirtyHand the walls of Babylon will shake

Hmmmmm

Shango Says:June 26th, 2005 at 10:48 pm
Coverups begin with elders and the founders of the houses of Babylon
Not the minions
DirtyHand knows this

Corruption's source.

BWAAAAAHHH!!!   :lol:

SO- it's possible that the houses of Babylon are falling.  Could it be there will be some resolution in this case now?

Who is this?  Did I miss the answer?

I believe he's referring to Patrick Boset (Renfro's husband/friend or whatever)

 :lol: :lol:

Is that the same guy in the photo with his arm around Julia's waist at some kind of party or something?

teepees fall down

his "beard" maybe?  :wink:

Yes

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/Julia.jpg)

Do I have this correct?  the house that Astrid sold or was trying to sell is now Club Arias and this is the same house that was raided and Lorenzo taken into custody or was that a different house?  Is this the house in the photo of Lorenzo with 3 legs?  Maybe I am mixing up houses now. I think I am.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/RenfroBoset.jpg)

It's the house that Astrid lived in I believe.  Not the one that was just raided.  Yes, I think the house in the 3 leg photo.

Yep, that's him. She looks happy with him.

Lala's - probably just drunk as a skunk  :wink:

So is that house...this house? Did we ever google earth that location?

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 9:41 pm
One straight path
to the house of Rave,
while of gold bricks
the road is not paved,
answers mysterious lie within
magical letters which spell sin
XTC DNA

Lala's - yes we did google it.  It might be in Sunfreaks evidence thread.  Would take me too long to find it on my PC right now.

Not sure if it's the place Shango references or not, but I suspect so.

Thanks, I can look for myself...just needed to know where. 

I still don't think I understand.  The house where Astrid used to live was raided and that is it in the photos?  I wonder what happened to the stucco fence that used to be in front of it?

And now this house is Club Arias?  It didn't look large enough.  And some how this Club is connected to Jossy's brother Luis and Lorenzo?

The only possible connection is to Lorenzo.  As far as I know it has nothing to do with Luis Mansur.

Lala's I found this:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/mapvdslorenzocopy.jpg)

Wasn't Luis Mansur just arrested in this raid of this club and others?

No, the club was not raided.  Luis Mansur was arrested at his home.  The Club Arias is an entire different subject.

Club Arias includes the 4 Bedroom House and 7 suites..They have rates for rental by the week..

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2268/ratecard01qb7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I didn't see the google earth images of that house in Sunfreak's thread.  I know I have seen one at one time.  Maybe someone will find it in the next day or so and post it again.  Thanks Klaas.  Time for me to hug Nemo...getting sleepy.

He should contact 'What not to Wear' & maybe she can go to NY...Nick & Carmody (sp?) can cut her hair & fix her face.   :P

Yeah, I couldn't find it either. I did post a map for you above.

Nite!

Maybe Hotshots still has the For Sale information on Astrid's house.  Must be positively huge to accommodate up to 250 at meeting with 8 bedroom suites of 700 sq ft each.

Do we know anything about a Francisco R. Arendsz, Savaneta 235 B?
That is the only FRA I can find in the phone book.

Klaas, I've been looking for HRMO but can't find anyone.

Hyro Oduber?

Nope

very possible

Well, I thought there was a connection to the raid in some way. 

Hoping my book arrives tomorrow!

G'nite!

Klaasend questioned whether it could be an Oduber....the age was listed as 41...

Another JAC is Jacintho A. Croes. Paradera 32 and Roncado 8-B. Must be his home and business

I thought about that too, but I think Hyro is younger than in his 40's.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=18692712

Hmmm, hold on a sec.  Nope..I was hoping maybe there were some addresses in the Diario article.

http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/9/25/

9-25-07 Awemainta
(http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/8421/bustgo2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/9582/bust2ys1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Yippee

I found Klaas... I left you a message over on musings about something was said about Burgess, suspect in missing Donna Jou case... Did you hear it?

I am a happy camper tonight!!!! Been checking the BarnsNoble site for Beth's book.

There was something else I wanted to say but can't remember it. Klaas is it at your local Walmart yet?

Oh... Anna I hope you get your book tomorrow too!.. Was wondering how you were assigning the four different highlighter colors in ref. to what's in the book???

I am buying 2 copies for I know my friends will want to borrow mine and I don't wish to not have a copy for when we discuss areas in the book here.

It's getting exciting again!!!

(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5935/arias01re1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Old Post's @ RWV by Dissapointed Aruban

justguessing:
Lorenzo's parents are both of Dutch nationality. His father committed suicide several years ago hanging himself.
I've known them for a while, Lorenzo is a crazy dude, definitely into partying and drugs but he's not stupid. He's too laid back to be involved into anything serious. I believe he may have supplied them with the drugs and that was as much as he was involved.
Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Tuesday, July 26, 2005 at 11:44 PM
-----------------------------------------------------
That's not Lorenzo! That's another pic, Lorenzo looks nothing like that if you're referring to the son of the VW dealership owner.
Lorenzo's father was Paul van Rijn, he was a completely different man from PVDS.
Lorenzo is a gabber, shaved head, long skinny pale guy.

There is only one Lorenzo van Rijn, he's a tall skinny white Dutch guy who lives behind Savaneta. His house is a party as well as his van/car or anything he's driving. I've never seen pictures of him, I only saw him in person.
Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Wednesday, July 27, 2005 at 12:13 PMPosted by: Disappointed Arubian | Wednesday, July 27, 2005 at 11:54 AM
-------------------------------------
I never knew the Kalpoes and Joran existed until this happened. I don't know anyone connected to them except for Lorenzo.
Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Saturday, July 30, 2005 at 12:10 AM
-------------------------------------
disappointed
I remember they found some items of Natalee's at Lorenzo's casa--correct--that does make one curious
Posted by: RONS | Monday, August 01, 2005 at 10:20 AM
RONS,
probably because Joran took her there for one of Lorenzo's house parties. Lorenzo is always throwing parties at his house, anyone can go there, he doesn't have to know you to have you at his party.
Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Monday, August 01, 2005 at 10:22 AM
-------------------------------------
Angelus:
Lorenzo's father killed himslef shortly after finding out about his cheating wife and the divorce papers on the way, plus he had a depression issue. Don't post if you don't know your facts.
Two days before his death, Paul (Lorenzo's dad) was looking a bit down and was talking about fixing everything.
Lorenzo did not kill Natalee, he wouldn't waste his time on a girl like that. He's got better things to do, like getting high, throwing parties, hosting his parties, and spend most of his time in the VIP booth in that miniclub he built on his property.
I think Joran and Deepak are the main suspects here.

Realdebbie:
(About Rene who was murdered)I happen to know the ex-husband of the woman's sister. It is said she probably had help doing so, you will find it in my previous post somewhere.
Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Monday, August 01, 2005 at 10:29 AM

Lorenzo's dad commit suicide. His wife and younger son found his body hanging on a rope in the living room at their home in Savaneta. They say that house is cursed because before the Van Rijns moved in there a baby had drowned in the swimming pool and there are rumors of a previous suicide as well.
Lorenzo isn't feared here! Lol.
Everyone knows him as the cool guy who likes parties. Most people like him or suck up to him becuase he's got great cars, big house with a mini nightclub, lots of cash and always the life of the party. Lorenzo doesn't have a problem getting girls, they're waiting in line for him.
Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Monday, August 01, 2005 at 10:39 AM

I know TJ Ward was looking into this..I guess it was proven false ?  :-?

Remember this shango readers?

June 26th, 2005 at 10:01 pm
Arawaks often go to play in small houses of Babylon with the offspring of the Elders

he said it for a reason...brb...
http://www.greatrentals.com/adminpublic/exb/multiple_prop_list.cfm?CST_ID=3083&SIT_ID=4979
after you see these addresses click back to the main owner#
It is PVDS house.
Posted by: Selena | Friday, August 05, 2005 at 03:12 A
---------------------------------
About This Property
Category: Single Family Homes
Address: Salina Cerca 37-B
Noord
Aruba
For Sale By: Agent
Construction Year: 1989
Area: 15,069 Sq. Ft
Bedrooms: 4
Bathrooms: 3
Sleeps: n/a
Stories: 2
Parking Spaces: 3
this is one that is listed,..see the address?
It's on the original URL links to PVDS house

Posted by: Selena | Friday, August 05, 2005 at 03:42 AM

----------------------------------
Alekia
Follow my posts,..the properties listed are RIGHT THERE.......the ones under MORE FOR THIS OWNER connected to the VAN der SLoot listing....
the Holloways need to know this
Posted by: Selena | Friday, August 05, 2005 at 03:58 AM

------------------------------------
the WHOLE LIST OF PROPERTIES...is the ARS villas
the villas are right there.
the main listing for the VDS property is backlisted as more for this owner on the REAL ESTATE link.
Meaning,...somone owns all the properties listed under that number.
like 10 properties...
the one for sale is 37 B Salina Cerca..
it links to VAN der SLoot
Posted by: Selena | Friday, August 05, 2005 at 04:02 AM

----------------------------------
then it bothered me even more when I clicked on the rental page for Paulus' Montana house and it showed ^ more properties listed, for the SAME owner......and one is right across the street from the Marriott.
Posted by: Selena | August 5, 2005 02:56 AM

-------------------------------

Aruba chamber Salina Cerca addresses
ARENDS JOSEPH ANTHONY SALINA CERCA 37-J
ARENDS-KOCK MONICA HELENA JOHANNA SALINA CERCA 37-J
CAROLINA ADELA SALINA CERCA 21-F
( I include this name as it appears to have a Wever connnection- Croes-Wever, et al)
CAROLINA-WEVER ROSA MARIA SABANA GRANDI 8
CROES GLENN RODERICK SALINA CERCA 25-H
CROES RUDY MELVIS SALINA CERCA 23-B
MADURO JUSTO ARSENIO SALINA CERCA 10-A
SEMEREL-VERMEULEN RITA ZAINAH SALINA CERCA 37-A ?
SMIT PETER JAN SALINA CERCA 9-C
SMIT-ARENDS EVELINE MADELEINE SALINA CERCA 9-C

TROMP ANTHONY JACINTO SALINA CERCA 39
TROMP-DE CUBA MARISKA MARIA SALINA CERCA 13-C
YRAUSQUIN RUBEN EFRAIN (JR) SALINA CERCA 25-I
YRAUSQUIN RUBEN EFRAIN III SALINA CERCA 25-I
YRAUSQUIN-ROBLES MARGARETH LINDA SALINA CERCA 25-I
Does this mean anything? The pond they drained is near the Raquetball Club, Aruba Racquet Ball Club.
The pond is called a salina, a salt flat basically, that turned into a sinkhole. The area nearby is called Salina Cerca.
Aruba Racquet Club- Rooi Santo 21, Noord, Aruba
http://www.arc.tennist.nl/
Map- ARC Surfside villas
http://www.casbon.net/gp-surfside-villas.htm
ARS- Aruba Reservation Services
(ARS Property Management Services)
Salina Cerca 35-E, Bakval
Aruba
Salina Cerca area addresses.
Posted by: Selena | Friday, August 05, 2005 at 03:19 AM
-------------------------------------
That YRASQUIN property?
YRASQUIN is the man that took over the Vw dealership when Lorenzos' father died.
Posted by: Selena | Friday, August 05, 2005 at 03:44 AM


EDITED:

******* - THE ABOVE RENTAL PROPERTY STUFF TURNED OUT TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VDS - THE OWNER IS ACTUALLY THE RENTAL COMPANY.  AGAIN, VDS DID NOT OWN THE PROPERTY. (klaasend)

RWV Archives

seedyrum - you've GOT to be kidding me
jaime does not look like lorenzo
Posted by: Melody | August 12, 2005 03:37 PM

Melody, so you do know who Lorenzo is, how is he related to Joran?
Posted by: cocomo | Friday, August 12, 2005 at 04:25 PM

No Response

Hi guys, yes I do have pics, but I am not at home.  When I get home later I will post the pics for you.....

I agree w/ humbird ...At first glance of the first shot it does resemble Joran, but in the screenshot at the bottom of *******'s post the person looks like Lorenzo.

Found another pic of Joran in April/May 2007 from the end of his Book Tour..

(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/joran.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/2048706705an.png)

http://www.amigoe.com/english/ (http://www.amigoe.com/english/)  09/26/2007

Amigoe's English take on Monday's arrests. Also want to point out that although we have no addresses, the "neighborhoods" have been named all along - so that might help to determine who some of these people are. My post about this yesterday shows which "initials" were picked up in which neighborhoods. Quickest place to find it might be on the current page of the M&C thread.

Also, this article flatly names Luis Mansur.



Just thought this second article was interesting. Don't organizations traveling to trade shows typically bring their own setup people?

Melody did respond to this question and stated that as far as she knew, Joran did not have any half brother.  I just read it on a RWV thread the link posted by Pearl at BFN.

.

Today's Diario isn't up yet ...

Eight detainees from 9/24 operation - Initials, Age, Neighborhood/District if known:

R.A.B.M, 28
F.R.A., 50
M.K.K., 28
J.A.C., 36
L.E.M., 63 - Nuñe (Luis Mansur per Amigoe.com)
M.V.C., 68 - Nuñe
H.R.M.O., 41 - Cashero
R.R., 45 - Cashero

The 9/24 Diario article stated that 1 person from Sabana Blanco was detained (and BMW confiscated), and 3 people from Picaron. I think it’s likely that RABM, FRA, MKK, and JAC were from those two areas.

If any of these are commercial rather than residential areas, that might be the attorney's office.

Also, the properties posted by Selena at RWV turned out to be all the property listed by that Real Estate Agent.  None of it had any connection to PVDS other than the known property commonly referred to as the Sloot compound.

.

Interesting Article from 1999
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/undocs/session67/view883.htm

Mansur Vs Netherlands
Snip

2.1 The authors are members of the business community in Aruba. Among other enterprises Luis Emilio Mansur is co-owner of a shipping company and Jossy Mehren Mansur is owner and editor-in-chief of a newspaper and co-owner of a trading company.

2.4 The report draws a picture of security in Aruba and mentions that foreign services fighting crime in the region are Aalmost unanimous in their opinion that the predominant image of the Aruban business community is one of joint services towards (laundering specialists of) regional drug cartels.@ The report mentions the authors by name and portrays them as criminals who were associated with criminal organizations involved in drugs trafficking, gun trafficking and laundering money obtained from criminal activities.

2.6 The authors claim that the allegations against them in the report are totally false and that as a result of the report becoming public their reputations were severely harmed. This led to serious damage to their business interests. They claim that by allowing the report to become public the State party violated their rights not to be subjected to unlawful attacks on their honour and reputation, protected under article 17 of the Covenant.

5. The Human Rights Committee therefore decides:


(a) that the communication is inadmissible under article 5, paragraph 2 (b) of the Optional Protocol;

(b) that this decision shall be communicated to the authors and, for information, to the State party.

Do you have the sales advertisement?  Interested in the square footage being so large to accommodate 5600 sq ft of suites only plus dining, etc.

TIA

.

Oh..Ok..I was scanning threw the RU archives on RWV..Looking mainly for the Aruban posters and never saw her response..Seem's like Dan erased alot of stuff over at RWV  :-|

Yes, I believe he did *******.  Many, many of my posts are gone but guess he does that when he bans somebody.

:wink: How I didn't get banned still baffles me!  :lol: I blasted him both publicly and privately about his "source" - J ulia Renfro.

So if Jossy and Luis Mansur own property togther and filed this suit together, I wonder if Jossy will be implicated in any of this latest spat of arrests?  So far, AFAIK, he has steered clear of any of the family shady dealings.  I sure hope he is not involved in any way as he does seem like such a nice person.

 :-?  I think his banning policies were based on pure whim, Wreck.   :2doh:  He particularly took offense to both me and Frank for some reason.  And of course Angelaberdina.  But before banning, he would just delete my posts.  I have suspected scubajap was also encouraging him to get rid of me as she didn't like my questions.   :D

Thanks Anna...I thought that's what I remembered, but went to the link anyway :lol:

Thanks to Ms Maples, *******, Janet, Klaas and everyone for all the link and posts thet bring over.  Been some interesting reading the last few days.

Anna,

Did you get an order update from Walmart?

Your order has been delayed due to a delay in our fulfillment
process. Unfortunately, we were unable to ship the item(s)
you ordered below by the originally estimated ship date.

 :smt091

Melody posted, and this is from memory so not exact, but pretty close something like the typical Aruban:

According to me, Joran doesn't have any half brother.

-----

So if looking through her posts, I am pretty sure it starts out with that "according to me" business.  If I had time, would try to find it again and will if opportunity presents itself later today.  Busy day around here as usual.

Noticed in the article Ms Marple posted about the raid this morning that KLPD sniffer dogs from the Netherlands were used so I assume this has been in the planning stage for a while.

Luis Mansur background from Harry Ho  :-| There must be 2 Luis Mansurs as one of them is listed in Military school in 1984 and the other is 63 yrs old.

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/11/harrytho_1106_n.php
Here's some background to "landlord" Luis Mansur with a connect with the Twittys via the Castle Heights Military Academy in Lebanon, TN.
The seller is Terminal Investment Corp. with President Jose Travieso Jr. and directors Luis Mansur and Jose Montiel.

Terminal Investment purchased the property in April 1985 for $12.5 million, or $51.15 a square foot. The property is currently assessed at $4.1 million, or $16.89 a square foot, according to Miami-Dade County property records. The sales price is undisclosed.
Terminal Investment is owned by the Bahamas-based Mendal Investments and the Cayman Islands-based Marine Investors, according to a document Silvers filed with the city of Miami Beach.

Comment: The fact that money from overseas (two tax havens with secret ownership) purchased the property in Miami at a huge premium, hints at the source of the funds as being illegal. It is common practice to launder money via real estate purchases. First, those who approved the sale of this property undoubtedly did so with the anticipation of some manner of clandestine remuneration. Second, those individuals (entities) administering the property are under some obligation to approve a lucrative use of the property some time in the future. Third, the fact that Luis Mansur is one of the three directors in this development, likewise, hints of money laundering.

On Luis Mansur, Aruba Facts - Aruba News Desk - Newsletter March 1-31, 2001

The Royal Cabana Casino was first open in 1992 and was operated by Luis Mansur and Blackjack Casino. At the end of 1995 the casino was taken over by Aruba Leisure & Gaming partners Norbert Aleman and Nathan Katz, both familiar operators on the island.
Bienvenidos a Regionnet
Luis Mansur is involved in the Central Industrial and Commercial entity in Argentina.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - Jossy in hospital with chest pains!LovelyPigeon
The school that several Mansurs, including Jossy, went to that was also attended by Jug and Jar Twitty was Tennessee Military Institute (TMI). None of them attended during the same years.
I have not heard that a Mansur son and Jug's son went to the same school and wouldn't know what school that would be.

TMI was renamed Tennessee Military Academy (TMA) in 1975, but is not longer in operation at all, having closed in 1988.

LovelyPigeon
Go to http://www.castleheights.com/ and look at Roll Call for names and years.
Jug Twitty '74
Farid Mansur '82
Serge Mansur '83
Luis Mansur '84
Eduardo Mansur '86

Castle Heights Military Academy in Lebanon,TN

Castle Heights Military Academy maintains an active alumni association that receives huge alumni donations.

Aruba - Matutino Diario - Diabierna - Staff y Personal

Director of the Diario, Jossy Mansur
Director in Absentia: Luis Mansur, Jossy Mansur, Eduardo Mansur, and Damilice Mansur.
--------------------------------

Most definetly!! I saw in another article they found a million in cash at one of the property's...This is pretty Big!!

No, I didn't get that email but I went to check the status of my order and it still says "Processing" and not "shipped"!  So it will take at the least a couple of days after shipping happens.  Looks like next week for me.   :sad:  And that's at the earliest. 

There is this added detail on my book order:

Will arrive between Wednesday, 09/26/07, and Friday, 09/28/07

----

So sounds like they are SAYING Thursday but I find that hard to believe if it didn't ship yet.

The eightth might be release(or already  has been released) after HER lawyers protested HER detention.  Wonder which initials belong to the woman?

Here ya go.  Hope it helps.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/kath8700/nats/janaruba229.jpg

This is a video of the import / export area she owns.
http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/kath8700/nats/?action=view&current=janaruba247.flv

I am now going to try to find that sign for you...

I just received an email suggesting the HER may have been Luis Mansur's wife.

(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7210/arialofastridslorenzoszjd6.jpg)
(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5402/arialofastridscwv6.jpg)
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/392/lorenzosmomastridshousegd8.jpg)

Doesn't say the footage.  sorry.  But you can see the name of the realtor, and number.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/kath8700/nats/lvrsign.jpg

Astrids house is here
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/kath8700/arialofastridslorenzoszjd6.jpg)

Thanks, Hotshot!

I wish somebody would cut down that lopsided tree, lol!

LOLOL, yeah, I hear ya there.  But hey, it's at least a marker for us. 

Well, I am curious about the square footage but not enough to call the realtor and ask, lol.  Doesn't look much like my idea of a teenage Rave house.

How do we know Astrid still owns it?  If she doesn't I wonder what the selling price might have been.  Housing market is down in this country now and would think more so in Aruba these days.

Yes, it is.  Thanks!  It's a very attractive house, tree and all.

Well when it was for sale I found it in the realtors for aruba.  it told all about it.  I should have saved it all.  Well I have been on all night, so going to take a nap.  I'll be back in a while.  Sorry I couldn't help more.

Thanks Klaas.  If so, it could be she just lived in the house and that is why the lawyers protested her detention.  Otherwise you would think they would all be out, if their lawyers were any good.