Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey murder arrested in Thailand

Breaking News from CNN: A suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey murder has been arrested in Thailand, Denver TV station KUSA reports. CNN working to confirm.

(http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/fun-images/JonBenet_small.jpg)

According to reports, the unidentified suspect has confessed to certain elements of the crime. However, the parts that have been confessed to would have been unknown to the general public. The Boulder County DA stated that the suspect will be brought back to the United States in the next couple of days.

Much more ...

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/08/16/suspect-in-the-jonbenet-murder-arrested-in-thailand/

Arrest Made In JonBenet Ramsey Case
http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_228163454.html

(CBS) BOULDER, Colo. A former schoolteacher was arrested Wednesday in Thailand in the slaying of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey -- a surprise breakthrough in a lurid, decade-old murder mystery that had cast a cloud of suspicion over her parents.

Federal officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, identified the suspect as John Mark Karr, a 42-year-old American, and one law enforcement official told The Associated Press that Boulder police had tracked him down online.

Sources tell CBS News that the suspect will be brought back to the United States this weekend. Law enforcement found Karr because of a series of e-mails he allegedly sent regarding the case, reports CBS 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty.

ABC News reported that Karr was charged in 2001 with possession of child pornography in Sonoma County, Calif., and is also wanted in California for failing to appear in court.

CBS' San Francisco affiliate, KPIX-TV, confirmed with authorities that a man with the same name as the suspect taught in Petaluma schools at the time.

Dr. Carl Wong, Sonoma County Superintendent of Schools, says Karr worked as a substitute teacher in elementary schools in five different districts throughout Sonoma County.

KPIX-TV has spoken by phone with Nathaniel Karr in Atlanta, who says he is John Mark Karr's brother. Nathaniel Karr confirms that his brother is the one arrested in Thailand and that he did live in Petaluma.

"We have only positive things to say about my brother. We believe he is totally innocent and the evidence is circumstantial," Nathaniel Karr says.

Nathaniel says his brother grew up in Alabama with his grandparents.

The Ramsey family's attorney in Atlanta pronounced the arrest vindication for JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey. Patsy Ramsey died of ovarian cancer on June 24.

"John and Patsy lived their lives knowing they were innocent, trying to raise a son despite the furor around them," Lin Wood said. "The story of this family is a story of courage, and story of an American injustice and tragedy that ultimately people will have to look back on and hopefully learn from."

The attorney said the Ramseys learned about the suspect a least a month before Patsy Ramsey's death. "It's been a very long 10 years, and I'm just sorry Patsy isn't here for me to hug her neck," Wood said.

Karr was a teacher who once lived in Conyers, Ga., according to Wood. The attorney said the Ramseys gave police information about Karr before he was identified as a suspect.

Wood would not say how the Ramseys knew Karr. But JonBenet was born in Atlanta in 1990, and the Ramseys lived in the Atlanta suburb of Dunwoody for several years before moving to Colorado in 1991.

A source close to the investigation said Karr confessed to elements of the crime. Also, a law enforcement source, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the AP that Karr had been communicating periodically with somebody in Boulder who had been following the case and cooperating with law enforcement officials.

Boulder County district attorney Mary Lacy said the arrest followed several months of work, but she said no details would be released until Thursday. Lacy was set to disclose more details at a news conference in Boulder on Thursday at 10 a.m.

Karr was being held in Bangkok on unrelated sex charges, authorities said. CBS reported he will be brought back to the United States this weekend.

JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of the family's home in Boulder on Dec. 26, 1996. Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note in the house demanding $118,000 for her daughter.

The image of blonde-haired little JonBenet in a cowgirl costume and other beauty pageant outfits has haunted TV talk shows ever since, helping feed myriad theories about her killer, and the case became one of the most sensational unsolved murder cases in the nation.

Over the years, some experts suggested that investigators had botched the case so thoroughly that it might never be solved.

Investigators at one point said JonBenet's parents were under an "umbrella of suspicion" in the slaying. And some news accounts cast suspicion on JonBenet's older brother. But the Ramseys insisted an intruder killed their daughter, and no one was ever charged.

In the months after the slaying, Patsy Ramsey went before the cameras, vigorously defending herself and her husband, chastising the media and blasting local law enforcement as incompetent.

In a statement Wednesday, John Ramsey said: "Patsy was aware that authorities were close to making an arrest in the case, and had she lived to see this day, would no doubt have been as pleased as I am with today's development almost 10 years after our daughter's murder."

The Ramseys moved back to Atlanta after their daughter's slaying.

Wood lashed out at the frenzy that long surrounded the case, and he accused the media of "the most obscene false accusations." "I think the public's mind was so poisoned against this family that no one was able for too many years to look at the evidence," he said.

Patsy Ramsey's sister, Pam Paugh, of Roswell, Ga., said the family was celebrating the news of the arrest. "We are elated. We are elated. If this is, in fact, the killer, then we have a very heinous killer off the streets to never harm another child," Paugh said.

Lib Waters of Marietta, Ga., visited the gravesites of Patsy and JonBenet Ramsey in the Atlanta suburb immediately after hearing news reports about the arrest.

Waters, who described herself as a longtime friend of the Ramsey family, taped a piece of notebook paper to JonBenet Ramsey's headstone that read: "Dearest Patsy, Justice has come for you and Jon. Rest in peace."

In 2003, a federal judge in Atlanta concluded that the evidence she reviewed suggested an intruder killed JonBenet. That opinion came with the judge's decision to dismiss a libel and slander lawsuit against the Ramseys by a freelance journalist, whom the Ramseys had named as a suspect in their daughter's murder. The Boulder district attorney at the time said she agreed with the judge's declaration.

"Today is additional vindication of the family," Wood said.

Wood said he and the Ramseys "have been totally amazed and impressed with the professionalism of law enforcement" under Lacy's direction. Lacy became district attorney in 2001.

Lawrence Schiller, author of the 1999 book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" about the case, said Wednesday he understood the man had been on a list of sexual offenders who were suspects for a long time.

"There are a lot of facts about her actual death that the public does not know." Schiller said. "If he did confess to some facts of the murder, to reveal those facts of the case, that would finish the puzzle."

Among the facts he said were not generally known was the murder weapon and what the killer did with it.

DNA was found beneath JonBenet's fingernails and inside her underwear, but Wood said two years ago that detectives were unable to match it to anyone in an FBI database. It was not immediately known Wednesday whether investigators had any DNA evidence against Karr.

Bob Grant, a former Adams County district attorney who worked on the case, said there was never enough evidence to convince him that any potential suspect could be successfully prosecuted.

"I wasn't convinced it was an inside job, nor was I convinced it was an outside job," he said. "All the outside suspects were cleared after exhaustive investigation, and there were a whole lot of outside suspects."

"A conviction isn't necessarily going to be a slam-dunk here. All of the problems that plagued investigators and police for all these years -- the contamination of the crime scene and all that -- doesn't just go away now," CBS News legal analyst Andrew Cohen said.

Link to resume of John Karr (originally from Huff's crimebog.us)

http://www.job4teacher.com/Candidates/JohnKarr.html

Time of the crime was in 1996 so what was the suspect doing at that time and where?

Real estate (1981-1996) Privately owned rental business. Restoration of mansions from the Queen Victoria Era.


Was one of those mansions the Ramsey's house???

People that kill other people or violent crimes usually know that person..  So is this the connection..

If this sicko killed JonBenet and I believe he did, then he was around little kids unsupervised for a long time now.. Its a scary world for those of us with kids, and who do we trust?  We think that these monsters have signs tatooed on their forehead saying I'm a pedofile and not someone that looks clean cut..  The real monsters are those that blend into our society, not the ones that stand out..

Guy seems a little vague about what was going on prior to 1996?

Seems to have traveled around a bit after 1996.

A friend of mine who lives in Calif. sent the following.  I assume KGO is the tv  station:

Ramsey Suspect's Bay Area Ties
Ex-Wife Talks To ABC7
KGO By Carolyn Tyler

Aug. 16 - KGO - A former schoolteacher who worked in the Petaluma School District is now in custody in Thailand in connection with the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

The suspect, John Mark Karr, lived for a time in the North Bay with his wife and three kids.

41-year-old John Karr and his then-wife, Laura, once lived in Petaluma. She told us they were married back in 1989 and lived in Alabama until the year 2000 when they moved to Petaluma.

Karr taught in the Petaluma School District as a substitute schoolteacher from December of 2000 until April of 2001. The district says they had no complaints about him. Karr also spent time as a teacher in Napa during the same period, working to become a full-fledged credentialed teacher.
In April of 2001, Karr was arrested at a school in Napa on five counts of possessing child pornography. He did serve some time in jail, but was released on his own recognizance in October and later failed to show up in court. He is wanted in Sonoma County and a warrant is still out for his arrest for failure to appear on those charges.

His teaching credential in Petaluma was suspended, then revoked for violating the education code.

Laura Karr filed for divorce after her husband was charged in 2001. When he was allowed out of jail, it was with a lot of limitations and restrictions, including supervised visits with his own children and he was not allowed to be around other children. He was ordered to stay off the computer. Investigators say he was using the computer for child pornography.
His ex-wife also says her husband did a lot of research on the JonBenet Ramsey case and also on Petaluma's own Polly Klaas.

Laura Karr also tells us she's devastated and embarrassed by these murder charges, but she does not believe that her husband did it. She says that during Christmas season of 1996 when JonBenet Ramsey was strangled and beaten to death in Colorado, they were living in Alabama at the time and she was with him the entire Christmas season.
We spoke with a former neighbor of his, Sylvia Ross, who described him as "friendly, but divisive." She says that everyone in the neighborhood knew about the child pornography charges, but were afraid to talk openly about them.

Looks like the guy may just be trying to get out of Thailand then, unless someone can show a DNA match and some form of travel to Boulder at that time.

If wife is telling the truth about the time period, then dosen't seem possible the guy could have made a quick trip to Boulder, do the deed and then a quick trip back without some sort of inside connection to the family.

Parttime handyman or realtor or something for the Ramseys?

It does sound like it'd be difficult for him to commit the crime if his wife's time line is correct (as you've so eloquently stated).  I know reports are coming in that someone working at that Thailand prison heard him confess to the crime.  But again...it could be a case where he was looking for a quick flight the hell out of that country...

Time will tell, I guess...

Well, I do question how well the wife remembers christmas 1996.

I sure don't remember mine.

Well, CNN talking to guy in Thailand live says John Karr wasn't in jail in Thailand on anything, but was arrested at U.S. request and once arrested confessed to the killing.

Hey, Hey, John Karr is actually holding a press conference live in Thailand right now.

Where'd you see that?  I'm looking around now...

It's on regular CNN here right now. Karr left the room a bit ago.

What did he say??

Karr really didn't talk, the Thai cop says that when Karr was arrested and asked what for? he was told it was for 1st degree and Karr said 'no it was 2nd' not intended murder.

karr told Immigration that he was in love with the girl.

Kinda looking like he might be in a bit of trouble if some evidence can back up the admission.

Karr has been very cooperative and has showed a variety of emotions.

I see clips of him being escorted out of the room.  It looked very strange for a suspect to be sitting in a room for a press conference.  Is that normal there?

a lively and upbeat press conference.

Yeah, think they thought it was unusual as well, but it appeared he has requested it and then changed his mind once seated.

Yeah, that Thailand official seems a little too upbeat...cheery really...

Very strange...

kinda cute seeing the British Broadcaster talking about 'Boxing Day' when the murder was discovered.

They say he wanted to proclaim his innocence in front of reporters...then changed his mind.  But then, they stated he confessed earlier...

This is getting very interesting...

I'm wondering if Karr might have been in contact with the Ramseys about being a 'Tutor' or something for JonBenet.

If this is legit, there has to be some connection of some sort.  It couldn't be a random choice...

He said they "loved each other", and that he kidnapped her.  From there, he accidentally killed her during.  How does that play itslef out...how does the ransom note fit in?  The ransom amount?  I'm confused...

Forgot the "l" in Huff's site earlier.  Sorry.

http://crimeblog.us/

John Karr Statement:

I was with Jon Benet when she died.

It was an accident.

This is getting too strange!  Is there a DNA match, or not?

Without a DNA link this guy might just be a nut obsessed with JonBenet and other young female victims of violent crime.  I hope we learn more from the news conference later this morning.

Whether his family  thinks he is innocent or whether his confession is real; the DNA will tall the story.

This is not the OJ case.

DNA was found at the crime scene in Boulder, CO and it will be matched to John Mark Karr. If Karr had never been arrested for a crime there would be no record of his DNA.

The DNA and maybe even a hand writing analysis to compare to the ransom note will tell much, if not all.

Link to the ransom note below.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom1.html

I thinking like Easy on this one, lots of red flags going up and he might be a pedofile nutcase and not necessary the killer..  Waiting for the DNA results before I remove the red flags..

What is bothering me is that MSNBC was reporting last night that a DNA match had already been made and this morning all the cable shows were speculating about when and if a DNA sample would be taken from the guy.  It was also said early yesterday that he was in a Bangkok jail on unrelated sex charges.  This morning that does not seem to be the case.  These cable “news” shows are losing credibility in my book.  Their need to have breaking news is outweighing good judgment.

John Karr does seem to have some serious problems, but I want to hear just how he was linked to this 10 year old crime.

Good find Buckeye.  I find it interesting that he fails to mention any details about life in the U.S.  I.e.  Where he taught in California... in fact, CA is not mentioned... could it be because of his record?  I'm thinking yes.

According to this resume he has been out of the country a long time... yet his brother doesn't know it?

Something is amiss that's for sure.  This will be interesting as it unfolds.

I agree Easy, we have to wait to see where the DNA leads us..  I think there are a lot of people that confesses to crimes that they didn't do for whatever reason..  My fear is we brought this pedofile back to the US and I hope we lock him up but if the DNA and others leads don't point to him, he will be released to prey on other children.. Well we do have evidence and this should answer our doubts one way or the other..  I have to go but have a good day..

“It was an accident.”

Say what?  I hardly think the use of a garrote and a fracturing the girl’s skull qualify as an accident.

I am confused by all or this. I missed the press conference, does anyone have a link to a video of it, if one is up yet?
I think it would be wonderful if this case if finally solved, but I am reserving my judgement on this until I know more.... JMO

I was wondering that earlier when I saw this on his resume:

-Primary School Teacher (1996-2001 and Currently) in some of the most prestigious schools in the United States, working with children from high profile families. I have taught all classes to elementary students including English, Math, Science, Reading, Social Studies, History, and Computer Technology. I have taught Physical Education with large groups of 100 to 150 students, ages 5 to 10. I have worked with large groups of children in school plays.

Reading that ransom note, and then my gut reation to the statements of this suspect raises some of the same red flags.  The note mentions a group, then 'I', then the captors.  Karr would not comment on anything relating to the Ramsey home, just his feelings for JonBenet and it was an accident.  I, too, will wait to see what unfolds from here.

cubbie, cnn has a clip...I watched it a bit ago.

And they've done that in almost every "breaking" story...

Thanks Mom!

I only followed this case in the news and had forgotten much of what I heard, so I was searching for some background info and came up with an interesting, but creepy web site.  Can I just post the link, or do I have to do the tiny url stuff?

Easy, I don't know the answer to your question,sorry, I guess if in doubt use the tinyurl thingy.....

I have to say that I have followed this case for years and just as recently as a couple of weeks ago watched documentaries and read books about it.
I just have alot of questions about this new arrest, and am waiting to see what transpires next.At the very least this guy is a sick perv......

Unfortunately I have work to do, so will catch up with y'all later....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060817/ap_on_re_as/jonbenet_ramsey_suspect_interview_1

At the very least this guy is a sicko...

This one is going to be answered quickly I think by the DNA results...

As much as I want this case to be solved, I'm thinking this guy may be copping to something he did not do.

Hope I am wrong.

I don't know how to use the tiny url thingy. lol

Was there supposed to be a press conference from the Boulder officials?

Yes suppose to be something this morning.

I will check on what time....I'm thinking 10 Their time...

The Boulder County DA's office has announced that they will be holding a news conference at 2 p.m. (Mountain Time) Thursday afternoon. 11Alive.com will stream that news conference live.

I am starting to think this guy is just a nut case.  And if that is true then the Boulder DA's office needs to all resign right now vs. put themselves thru more scrutiny.

I am also getting real POed at the press for releasing CRAP as news.  They must not verify ANYthing.  Now the exwife is saying he was with her that Xmas.  And they no longer have a DNA match, and they no longer were working on this 3 months ago but 2 weeks... what the hell is going on?

I'm thinking it's all BS.  Either the guy is a total nut or he just wanted out of Thailand.  I wish it were true.

So what happens if the results point away from this pervert?  Does he get to walk away or do we send him back to Thailand?  I hope he is guilty but if not I don't want to see this guy walking the streets near children..

It really is starting to look like a nutcase that wanted to interject himself into these high profile cases.  I sure hope there is more to this than what I have read this morning.

I agree - the MSM should just not say ANYTHING if they don't have it confirmed.

The Thai officer quoted the suspect as saying he tried to kidnap JonBenet for a $118,000 (£62,300) ransom, but that his plan went wrong and he strangled her to death.

This article: http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1205262006

Last updated: 17-Aug-06 13:59 BST

At the very least he should be put in a psyco ward for observation.  His trail needs to be checked out too.

terry, I agree. Especially when you read his resume. I hope those little children he "cared for" are not victims.

Exactly!

This story is not making sense.  I dont know why any exwife of an accused child predator would say he was with her the whole Christmas season  all the way in Alabama if he wasn't.  I hope this isnt one of those cases that a sicko just wanted to insert himself into the equation.  I guess we just wait and see if his story matches the evidence that hasn't reached the many books written on this case?  I don't trust the boulder DA, or the news media on this case...they have both screwed it up royally IMO.

Now he is saying he drugged her, and had sex with her as well.
But the killing was accidental.

I don't know about this whole thing.

Sounds very fishy.

Guess the proof will be in other evidence they may have and of course the DNA results.

Thanks for the heads up Cubbee.

Earlier it had been reported that it was suppose to take place at 2:00 Mountain Time....

Should be interesting to say the least.

I am not buying this guys confession. Something is funky here. This is too weird 4 me to believe.

Anyone close to a TV...

Press conference should be starting soon...

Welcome Jacq.... I am sure that Fox and MSNBC are covering it also... I was just flipping through and saw that....
Sounds like from listening to MSM we are not the only ones suspicious about this arrest......

Has the PC started yet?

Suppose to start at noon.

I'm here at work, no telly.

Yeah, I'm at work too.  Will have to hear it later unless there is a live stream.

I know Cnn.com has a pipeline thing that broadcasts things like that. You may want to check it out..

I'm not sure if you have to subscribe to it , though.

I found one at 11alive, but they are not saying much of anything.

Whole lotta nothing?

Well.....maybe they will take questions?

Can not comment, can not comment, can not comment.......

I caught the last minute or two of the conference.

Prior to that was ANYTHING of importance mentioned?

Nothing to the press conference.  She just basically thanked everyone and said no comment to all of the questions.

D.A. press conference.....Mary Lacy D.A



Arrested at 6 a.m. yesterday morning....

Began his teaching in Bangcok Tuesday morning after travelling extensively.....

Many efforts made to locate him by many agencies for the last few months......

John Carr presumed innocent under law so questions cannot be answered at this time.....

Circumstances sometimes mandate an arrest before an investigation is completed.....such as fear of flight or public safety.......

No comment on this investigation or arrest....

We shoiuld heed John Ramseys words and not make judgement and not jump to conclusions and let the justice system take its course...

Thanking many agencies here and around the world for their help and co-operation..........

John and Patsy Ramsey have co-operated with the investigation...

She is now naming many agencies and law offices which aided in the investigation, I can't type fast enough to list them......

He was under 7 day a week investigation in Bangkok


Very little she can say about an on-going investigation.....

Limited Questions...

No comment on his confession.....

No scheduled arrival for the suspect.....

Under Colorado .......Code she cannot discuss anything with regard to evidence in the case and apologizing .........

Cannot comment on charges as affadavit is sealed......

All are presumed innocent .......

Basically she cannot comment on progress of investigation or charges....

She does say that there can be indigent circumstances that change the timing of an arrest......

Their mission is to back away from what we have today and continue their investigation and continue to presume his innocence....


Translation in Cubbee's opinion.....they don't have much, but have to investigate further....


Sorry for the caca job of translating......

Hey Jackie!!  I have to say...this thing doesn't feel right at all!  Sure, if there's a DNA match, it's a done deal.  But, what bothers me is the fact that the Boulder DA went out of her way to give reasons as to why someone would be arrested before an investigation is complete.  Sounds as if she may be covering her backside in case this thing turns out to be notjhing more then a whack-job inserting himself into a imfamous child murder case...

Maybe when they found out he was to start teaching children again, given his backround they figured now would be a good time to nab him.

My hopes have dimmed about the connection with the Jon Benet case, but this guy is twisted so hopefully he will be off the streets.

Thanks Cubee for the notes!    :lol:

You did a great job, not a ca ca job! :wink:

LOL... thanks jacq! I am feeling like they wanted to get him off the streets before he harmed another kid and also she stressed that he has travelled extensively abroad since 01 and they were afraid they were gonna lose him.... JMO

And Strike, sadly I am in agreement with you.......I pray we are wrong and that they have evidence that we don't know about.....

TY for the "transcribe."  
Whether he did it or not..he got himself into this...
I hope if nothing else he is kept off the streets--what sicko could be in love with a 6 year old baby?   :evil:

I guess the most important thing now is the fact he is off the streets, and unable to harm anyone else.  Even if he didn't have anything to do with the Ramsey murder, he's still a potential danger to society at large!  T least now, that danger has been removed...

BTW...How are you doing Cubbee??  ;)  Good to see you...

Good to see you too Strike.... Am doing good, and you?

I'm better then I was last night...I can tell you that!! ;)

This thing is getting more weird by the second...

I totally agree with you there, it is all very strange. At the very least the perv if off the streets....
I have followed this case for years, that little girl was gorgeous....

Karr claims he drugged Jon Benet, but no drugs found in system.

I think this is going to be a bust.

Guy is guilty of alotta things, but I don't think her murder is one of them.

The Smoking Gun website has Jon Benet's autopsy report posted.

Negative for drugs in blood and system.

I think you may be right Jackie.  The drug inaccuracies in his story is probably just one of many things that may prove false in his confessing to the crime.  Like I've said though...probably better he's off the streets at this point...

Oh absolutely....

He's scary...

What is bothering me is the fact that the suspense associated with this guy, and if he is, in fact, JonBenet's killer can be very easily confirmed (or denied) through a sample DNA comparison.  This isn't Aruba.  Here in the US, those types of tests can be done rather effeciently, and with great accuracy.

I'm reserving judgement for a few days.  By then, we should have a definitive answer as to if he is, in fact, linked to this crime...

You know what irks me also?

A press conference that consists of Thank you's and at least 13 No Comment Statements.

When you are prepared to have something to "say" then call your press conference.

What a waste of time and energy...

I can't answer that...sorry...yada yada....

Funny you say that Jackie (great minds think alike I guess)...I was watching it...screaming the exact same things at the TV!  First off, last night's PC was VERY strange to me.  I've never seen one where the actual suspect attends...and without any kind of restraints, no less. Also, was it me, or did it seem very "lively"...with many people laughing and such?  Getting back on point, he  then gives interviews to the AP...basically talking loud, and saying very little via those pesky "no comment" verbalizations.  Then today, we get some of the same with that Boulder DA.  I think I may actually lost info watching it.  I was starting to wonder whether or not she could answer if she believed the Steelers would repeat as SuperBowl champs!!

Seriously though...it's all to surreal for me.  I'm not sure what to think...

Someone did comment that it is not unusual for a suspect to be paraded like that in front of the press in Bangkok.

They do it to all suspects......

But yeah that and probably a million other things in their world would seem strange to us.

As the song goes...

One night in Bangkok makes a hard man crumble...

Or something like that...

Murray Head...Loved that song...

Ooops sorry OT :shock:  :wink:

Got nothing to worry about going O/T with me Jackie!!  Besides...I'd probably be the one who takes heat for it anyway...;)

Seriously though...if anything, this situation does little to dispell the reputation of Bangkok being a very "soiled & seedy" place... :roll: I feel dirty just saying it...

Yeah well in my opinion that nonsense is getting way out of line.

Believe me, I have ruffled feathers before and often just for offering a different opinon.  Try to always be respectful...

But ya don't always get that in return...

Yeah, it's concerning to me, because we've always been able to differentiate ourselves from those other "hate" sites by way of our respect for one another's opinions.  Of late, it seems as if that freedom is diminishing...and quickly!  I'm just glad there are still some around (like you) who can show that respect without compromising the integrity of their own beliefs.  What used to be in abundance on these boards have since become a rarity...

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now...;)

I am with you on this, it is getting way out of line ....

Ya know about this case..........

It has been stated that male dna was found under jonbenet's fingernails and male dna on her underpants that did not match any male in the Ramsey family.

it would seem to me, that if this dna does not match this Karr guy, the case will fall apart...

Quite frankly from what I have read about this investigation , Boulder (which I love and have visited many times to see family) was ill-equipped to handle this investigation and did a bit botching of it's own.

Yeah, but didn't they also find DNA on JonBenet's underwear as recently as 2003?  That'd be some 7 years after the crime itself.  If that doesn't make you very nervous about the integrity of the evidence, as well as the abilities of the Boulder police dept, nothing will...

Trust me...I am hoping this guy is the person they've been looking for for the past 10 years.  It'd do much for the family in terms of gaining closure.  It's just I am not to confident at this point...

Hey cubbee!!  We meet again, huh??  ;)

I'm feeling more and more posters are starting to see to what's been going on lately.  Hopefully, that'll get things back IN line for all of us...

Truthfully I was concerned about it last night and now, today after that press conference consisting of "I can't comment on that", and the few things that were revealed did not sound too promising.... I am even more concerned....

I could be wrong...(shudder LOL)

but I think that the testing became more sophisticated in 2003 so they were able to get a more conclusive reading as far as the DNA is concerned.

But you know....all the reading I have been doing...this guy has quite an extensive arrest record for sex assault, all sorts a trouble.  

And here he is trapesing (sp?) around the world applying for jobs all child related.......

What is up with that?

I hope so strike.... I really do.....

Yeah, I'm sorry to see alot of people leave....most recently FM.

I have been sticking mainly to the movie trivia thread myself...

I felt a little chill in the room, after I had the audacity to say that I didn't want to see a tsunami hit aruba and harm innocent people.

I was getting bible scriptures quoted left and right about revenge and wrath...

That was time for me to exit....stage right.

As it is now.......

peace all. :wink:

I saw that Jacq....

That's what I mean cubbee.  Again, it seems the vibe is getting more and more one sided in terms of debates and opinions shared (and respected).  Being called a "deviant" for expressing my views (in a respectful way no less) was almost it for me.  I did receive a whole bunch of support afterwards (by some great people), so it's all good.  I just hope the unfortunate events of last night will start to wake people up to the fact we need balance, love, and most importantly, respect in order for this to survive.  It's all we really have anyway...

http://ace.mu.nu/

If anyone is interested- his resume.

(Klaas -- if this has been posted, please delete. I did not see it )


Bachelor of Science: Magna Cum Laude, Regents College, Albany New York USA

Mission: To provide excellence in education that develops academic and technological skills, instills strong values of
superior character, develops interpersonal skills and nurtures leadership qualities amongst students to prepare
them for a successful future with the expectation that such an education will result in a student of superior poise.

Experience and Qualifications:

La Esperanza School (Honduras, Central America) 2004-2005 as follows:

Grade 2 Homeroom Teacher - (LES 2004-2005) self-contained grade two classroom. I taught all subjects -
Language, Reading, Math, Spelling, Social Studies, Health, Art, Music, Physical Education, Computer Technology
and Agriculture. I prepared weekly lesson plans, created weekly teacher-made examinations, and recorded grades
every six weeks in student report cards.

Computer Technology Teacher - (LES 2004-2005) (Grades 1 through 8) Upper grades designed presentations and
created documents, based on themes, in Microsoft Office Suite XP. Lower grades learned English through
interactive language software. I maintained all computers in the lab including hardware and software upgrades and
repairs.

Director of English - (LES 2004-2005) in charge of recruting new teachers of English. Duties included teacher
mentoring and advisement; monitoring teachers in the classroom; collecting and checking lessons plans of all
English teachers; curriculum development including selection of books and materials in the area of English, Math,
Science and Social Studies; and schedule development for all subjects taught in English.

Librarian - (LES 2004-2005) Designed and maintained a small library with literature in English for grades 1 through
8. Book check-out and retrieval for students. Organization and presentation of books and media such as television,
VCR and DVD player, etc. Storytime for grades 1 through 3.

-Teacher of English (Costa Rica): Pro English: English instruction for corporate executive clients in the San Jose,
Costa Rica area.

-Private Teacher / Caregiver (2002-03 in Western Europe) as follows:

Germany: Three girls - 7, 11, and 12: I taught English to the girls through conversational and instructional methods.
I gave computer instruction to the girls via their laptop PC's. I drove the girls to their activities: ballet, riding,
handball, etc. I assisted the girls with their homework.

Germany: Two girls - 5 and 8; boy 10: I taught English to the children through conversational and instructional
methods. I awoke the children in the morning and gave them breakfast. I helped the children get ready for school
and escorted them to the school bus. I helped the 8 year old girl with her homework each day. I took the children
outside for play. At days end, I made sure the children had their evening bath, then put them to bed and read to
them before they went to sleep.

Netherlands: Baby girl 9 months, boy 3, and girl 4: I taught English to the three year old boy and four year old girl,
through conversational and instructional methods. I was very attentive to needs of the baby which included
changing, feeding, and bathing her. I helped the baby when she learned to walk at 10 and a half months. I fostered
independence in the children's activities.

-Teacher of English (2001-2002 Asia and Western Europe) as follows:

Seoul, Korea: I was a classroom teacher of English for children aged 6 to 12. Duties included planning lessons,
conducting classes as the sole teacher in the classroom, making assignments, and issuing grades. I taught 22
classes per week. The classes were 45 minutes in duration with an average class size of 18.

Heemstede, Netherlands: I volunteered as an English teacher at an atheneum school, planning and conducting
activities revolving around English and the U.S. culture.

-Primary School Teacher (1996-2001 and Currently) in some of the most prestigious schools in the United States,
working with children from high profile families. I have taught all classes to elementary students including English,
Math, Science, Reading, Social Studies, History, and Computer Technology. I have taught Physical Education with
large groups of 100 to 150 students, ages 5 to 10. I have worked with large groups of children in school plays.

-Private English, Reading and Math Tutor (1996-2001) for elementary students ages 8 to 12 on a private basis for
an hourly rate.

-Computer Instruction (1998-1999) for children in primary school and adults in community college. Instruction for
adults including Microsoft Word, Powerpoint, and Internet, using mostly the Windows PC environment but also
including the Macintosh operating system.

-Computer Technology Proficiency (1996-2004) creation of PC's from the ground up. Hardware/Software upgrades
and diagnostics. HTML web design creating mailtos,
metatags, html links and overall artistic design.

-Real estate (1981-1996) Privately owned rental business. Restoration of mansions from the Queen Victoria Era.

-Interests and Abilities: ability to read music and play several musical instruments; singer/songwriter; writer of poetry
and articles; acting.

-World Travelled: London, Paris, Amsterdam, Zurich, Milan, Bologna, Stuttgart, Munich, Sydney Australia, Taipei,
Singapore, Seoul Korea, Osaka Japan, Istanbul, Reunion Island off the coast of Madagascar, Atlanta, Dallas, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, and a host of other cities in the United States.

Ya know, that is what I have always loved about this board, and lately it seems as if you do not share the popular opinion you are a dispicable person.I got side-tracked last night and am sorry I was not there to put in my two cents.If things continue the way they have been going I am afraid that what has always set us apart from other boards will be gone....

Moved from job to job a lot. And all were children, mostly very young. Wonder if he was "in love" with them, too?

-Primary School Teacher (1996-2001 and Currently) in some of the most prestigious schools in the United States,
working with children from high profile families.

Jon Benet?

And Strike, I hope you do not mind, but I'm going to quote you in siggie "we need balance, love, and most importantly, respect in order for this to survive. It's all we really have anyway..." Just not right now, as I wanna put something else there for None.

It is really scary the people they let work in schools and other places around young ,vulnerable children... :shock:

I thought the same thing when I read that "high profile" part.....

It would be an absolute honor for me if you did so justins.  By all means...

Thank you!

That could very well be the tie that connect him to the Ramsey family.  I guess we'll see soon...

These are a few of his 'experiences' that give me the chills :shock:

Germany: Three girls - 7, 11, and 12: I taught English to the girls through conversational and instructional methods.
I gave computer instruction to the girls via their laptop PC's. I drove the girls to their activities: ballet, riding,
handball, etc. I assisted the girls with their homework.

Germany: Two girls - 5 and 8; boy 10: I taught English to the children through conversational and instructional
methods. I awoke the children in the morning and gave them breakfast. I helped the children get ready for school
and escorted them to the school bus. I helped the 8 year old girl with her homework each day. I took the children
outside for play. At days end, I made sure the children had their evening bath, then put them to bed and read to
them before they went to sleep.

Netherlands: Baby girl 9 months, boy 3, and girl 4: I taught English to the three year old boy and four year old girl,
through conversational and instructional methods. I was very attentive to needs of the baby which included
changing, feeding, and bathing her. I helped the baby when she learned to walk at 10 and a half months. I fostered
independence in the children's activities.

Which would make us like the refugees. I have no wish to give in to the baser side of myself, though have done so over this case. Strike is right that "we need balance, love, and most importantly, respect in order for this to survive. It's all we really have anyway." I want answers for Natalee's family, and, yes, for myself. I want those responsible for her disappearance and the subsequent cover up to be brought into the full light of exposure.  Then, I want each and every one of those individuals to receive just consequences for their actions (or inaction). By just, I do not mean vigilante type "justice", as that is NOT justice~ it is criminal. As an aside, my God is not vengeful and punitive. He/She ( :wink:  ) has given us the gift of personal choice in our dealings with others. Following the dark path is easy. It is the path as Strike so aptly wrote that requires diligant self-monitoring to stay the course.

I guess there has been no news since the so called press conference.  Why did they even bother with that?  A press release stating that they were not going to say a blasted thing would have saved everyone a lot of trouble.

How dumb do ya think I felt trying to transcribe it???/ :roll:  :wink:  :D

I agree with you and Strike , Justins.....

Did any of you see the recent documentary on the JB case....might have been a re-run in our area....?

They talked about the pineapple in her stomach.....and the picture of the pineapple in a bowl in the kitchen.....and Patsy saying that no one gave JB anything to eat that night....that she was asleep and was carried to bed....

It was chilling to think that her murderer might have fed her pineapple...

Did anyone see this?

Yes Sharon....that resume does give me chills......how can a parent know....

I did see that Mere and it gave me chills too just to think that the perp was just sitting there in their kitchen with that precious child eating pineapple while her parents were asleep.....

I found this on foxnews.com

"Karr was given a mouth-swab DNA test in Bangkok, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity. The results of that test were not immediately known. Karr will be given another DNA test when he returns to the United States, the official said."

Sounds to me like the results must have been close enough to make them want to test him under better conditions in the U.S.

I just don't see me hiring some guy to bath my baby girls.  Sorry, that just wouldn't work for me and that guy looks a little creepy to boot.

Yes Mere, I remember about the pineapple from way back when I used to read all about the case.

No -- I didn't see that MeMere. I haven't watched very much of the coverage yet.

I heard that today he admitted to drugging her -- but that autopsy results did not show any drugs.

So I guess it's best to wait for real facts to emerge. But I admit -- I am praying that this is finally justice for that beautiful little girl :(

And you're so right MeMere. How do parents know? I hope he did not harm any of these children in his care.

I had the same thoughts about that .... he does look pretty creepy, doesn't he?
It seems to me the more I hear on MSM the more skepticism I hear regarding this guy ....

Sounds like he is trying to escape the Bangkok prisons... but I hope there is resolution for this family and soon!!

That's what I had originally though Scarlett.  But, come to find out he wasn't doing any time in prison over there at all.  He was actually supposed to start teaching a 2nd grade class on Tuesday.  He was arrested yesterday...so the duration of time he served has just been over 24 hours...

I think it's more of a case of his inserting himself into a story in which he became increasingly obsessed with over the years.  The "admission" to drugging JonBenet even though the autopsy showed no traces of drugs in her system is probably one of many inaccuracies to his story...

He is a whacko...that's for sure!!  If nothing else, he should pay for his past...one way or another...

DId y'all see how Marc Klass reacted to him? I didn't know he was also obsesssed with the Polly Klass murder....

and poor Mark Lunsford...

Strike your state did a good thing... I hope you go and vote on that and encourage everyone you know to do so....

I heard on one of the news shows today that when he was arrested for one of his previous offenses ( the sick pervert), he told his father that he was arrested in connection with the JonBenet case.....
I do not have a good feeling about this at all....

I was completely creeped out when i just heard it reported that he was trying to involve himself in the Polly Klaas murder too.  He was corresponding with her killer?

OMG... what a sick bastard!

Have we heard anything yet about the nature of any previous arrests?

If he is 'serial' in nature, it's possible that he is in such a fantasy world that he confuses the details (like that big Dutch boy we've come to know).

Also -- the comments about the 'pineapple' that I read above -- if that's true, that would be something that no one else would have known :?

Greatest state in the country Scarlett!!  ;)  And, of course I vote.  Have to make our voices count, right?

From what I understand, he's been arrested at leats one other time on child porn charges.  Apparently, he had images on his CPU.  That arrest led to his 2001 divorce.  I'm not sure if he had other scrapes with the law...

As for the pineapple...that fact is widely known.  Wouldn't be anything others wouldn't have known about, and not an indication of him having "intimate knowledge" of the circumstances surrounding the crime...

Sharon, the pineapple was made public a while back, I believe I saw it on a documentary and then read about it maybe in People magazine...

well you are in Southern CA...(j/k :wink: )

No it's going to be a referendum on the Jessica's law bill in November on your ballots....

BTW, the New England states refuse to pass this law.... more worried about the sex offender's rights!! :evil:

You could be right Scarlett!  I had to get my charm from somewhere, right??  ;)

I'm glad we're prety tough on these sick bastards!  You have to remember though...this is "La-La Land"...one of the home bases of the entertainment industry.  There are some very...how shall I say..."alternative lifestyle minded" people living and working here.  Have to make sure things are regulated...you know?

Thanks all! I never heard about the pineapple. And I followed the case pretty closely. Through the media only. I did not know about forums then :oops:

But I still don't remember the pineapple.

And cubbeegirl -- I've been a People magazine subscriber for the past 16 years. Ask my husband :D He tells everyone thats why I know so much :D

Maybe I was practicing for the senior moments I get now :D Or maybe I DO remember the pineapple. lol.

I had to work and havnt been up to date with the story. this dude says he drugged her.  DUMB question here I have if anyone knows.. WHAT if he used chlroform  (SP?)  what that show im ones system??

 I remember the pineapple story.. :(

I'm thinkin' obsessed nutcase.

I also think this is a cruel way to treat the family of JonBenet, if Boulder just wanted to get this guy off the street.

Hi all -

I agree that this seems pretty bizarre.  I have been reading at the blog that Buckeye gave us earlier this a.m. and it is real interesting.  There are currently 3 parts.  I'd say start at the beginning but he just threw out an interesting possibility in part 3.

a guy committed suicide... perhaps was a partner of this loser.  Read through this and let's kick some fresh thoughts around.  

http://crimeblog.us/

Very interesting stuff to say the least Frijole.  Thanks! ;)

Thanks Beans! I must have missed it when Buckeye gave the link. Gotta go feed some kids and then plan on reading there. I really don't mind all these teenage boys coming over to swim everyday, but man, they sure can put away the groceries ! And most of them end up eating their meals here too! :shock:  :roll:  :wink:

OT   Cubbeeeeeeeeeeee  chicky..  :)

I'll have to check out the link Buckeye provided, as well.  I did see the link to the online resume for Karr, and just went back to page 1 or 2 and found that it's no longer available.  It was strange to say the least.

2NJSons_Mom

C l i c k on 'continue reading' at the end of the article, and will take you to the resume in the continued article.

I know! It got me too :D


Frijole -- Very interesting article. Thanks for reminding.

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d79/justinsmama/psychickarr.jpg)

Jonbenet Ramsey Murder Suspect Remembered In Hometown For Flashy Car, Marriages To Teens

Aug 17, 2006 05:01 PM PDT

The man who claimed he killed JonBenet Ramsey was known in his Alabama hometown for his flashy red sports car. But he was also dogged by questions about his marriages to teenage girls and behavior in elementary classrooms where he worked as a substitute teacher.

John Karr, who lived in northwest Alabama from his preteen years until after the brutal slaying in Colorado, stood out in this rural town both for his gull-winged red DeLorean and his intelligence. Marion County School Superintendent Bravell Jackson, says people couldn't help but like him. Jackson taught Karr and later had to fire him as a substitute teacher amid parent complaints.

Sandra Ford, a retired fifth-grade teacher at Kilby School in Florence supervised Karr's internship, says she was concerned by the way he related to female students. Karr's marriages to teen girls also generated talk in the area. Court records show a 14-year-old girl sought an annulment of their "ceremonial marriage" in 1985. She claimed she feared for her life when she agreed to wed him in 1984, when she was just 13 and he was 19. Karr admitted she was a minor, but denied she was 13.

A judge granted the annulment. Karr later married Lara Karr, who was 16 when their twin daughters died the day they were born on September 1st, 1989. The girls, Angel and Innocence Karr, are buried in the cemetery of a rural church in a family plot. Former Sheriff A-C Tice says the twins were born at home. Probate Judge Annette Bozeman says Karr apparently delivered his children.

Courtesy: Alabama Associated Press

http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5296281

I'm very disappointed with Steve's last post...I get it...He hasn't suspected the Ramseys for the last few years.  Used the arrest yesterday to thumb his nose at all of us who suspected them....Today, it's looking less likely that Karr can actually be placed in Boulder...To try to patchwork quilt this latest whacko to Helgoth, who's only connection to the case is the city of Boulder, just smacks of sensationalism.  

Steve is no longer reporting, no longer scooping, just imagining things and writing them down.

Someone just sent this to me.  If it is a duplicate I apologize.  Haven't had time to catch up on this thread.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon060400.htm

PS, the link is to the sketch made by the psychic, posted in the Denver paper .

IMO background thoughts on him not having CA Teaching credentials anymore

In CA teachers are fingerprinted or at least were in the 70's. Were there any fingerprints in this case?

I have taught in 3 states and only fingerprinted (other than being a military wife in the past) in CA. Hopefully, more states are doing that now for being a leader/teacher of children involves honesty, good character, safety, et al.

Also, Dr. Lee who was very involved in the case said that there was info that only the murderer (my word) would know regarding something on the tape on JB R's mouth... gee it was just mentioned earlier on TV that fibers of Patsy's sweater was on the tape.

If anything in this case is not public or leaked in ten years, I would be surprised but hopeful. Here is a man, a teacher, who researched heavily in these cases and made contacts that knew details, so I understand.

I free-lanced as a teacher/tutor with Life Credential in all subjects, all grades in the Industry for decades to famous children on the set, and tutoring children in families. It is not unusual for a free-lance teacher to have a different "assignment" each year. One year I had 27 W-2's when not on a series.

To not have your CA Credentials or any State's credentials anymore... that would be very serious to me even now in retirement. My teaching credentials are still valid for the rest of my life. I am a very proud teacher.

... you have to have had a felony or other serious charges if they take away your credentials. It is done my a CA Commission in Sacramento CA. It is not done willy-nilly. There usually is a hearing and formal charges.. don't know if the details are public knowledge afterwards.

With enforcing Child Labor and Education Laws, added to the teaching, I was quite aware I could go to jail with others if the law was broken on the set or if involved with a child getting hurt, and then also, not have a credential if I broke the law. The responsibilities are spelled out in the CA Educational Code, Professional Code, Child Labor Law Code.

At the time I rec"d my Life Credentials it was not easy to get K-12, all subjects, all grades.

I was checked out many times; so much that when I worked with the President's wife (Mrs. Reagan) on Hour Show, I think, the OK came back in about 15 minutes after they asked me if I would take the assignment (but not who it was with) and the OK for me to do it.

I would expect and encourage, if working now, to have parents really still do a detailed background check on me.

Teaching is so important; I am sadden at men and women teachers who do not take their responsibilities and characters seriously... to ruin and give bad names to other good teachers in the Profession..

From 1984 to 1996 I took many, many computer tech. courses, Mulitmedia and had many extra teaching certificates in Computer Tech. In 1984, UCLA had one of the first Computer Cert. for teachers. We were Cutting Edge. I attended many, many Tech. Teaching conventions, meetings in CA and many courses in those 10 years.

I have seen this man's name before....

Does anyone know where he obtained his Educational Computer Tech training?

Thanks for listening... may God Bless the families and children who are suffering

See you all back on the NH site!

IBE

Am tired.. it's late... hope I spelled everything right! I know "teachers are expected to be good spellers". but I wish we had a spelling checker here anyway as we age.. he he.

Just curious, but who's Steve??

Would that be Steve Thomas?  Ex-detective in Boulder, CO?

Here is a link from the Drudge Report regarding this Karr guy:

http://tinyurl.com/kkdew

JustinsMama, thanks for putting that photo and the sketch together.  I was just trying to copy them onto my desk top so I could look at them.  Good job!

tidycat

I think the photo of him taken today at the so-called press conference looks even more like the sketch, as he is much thinner.  There is a good one on Drudge.

Nite all.

tidycat

crimeblog.us is run by Steve Huff.  I am guessing that is what is meant by comment.

This Karr fellow seems to be a serious nut job!  I'm surprised he has not gotten into deep trouble long before now.  But, without a positive DNA match I think this is a bust as far as Jon Benet Ramsey goes.

I don't understand why the Boulder DA would go so far out on a limb over this guy.  Why not get in touch with California and tell them where their fugitive was and that he seemed to be going over the edge?

Strange, very strange......

Apparently the Thai government is now denying that Karr stated that he drugged JonBenet and that he picked her up from school.....

I am seriously creeped out by this guy... what if all the wrong info on JBR is because he did so much that he can't keep it all straight anymore....

I think this creep avoided getting in serious trouble only by hopping around the word escaping it...

As for the likeness to him and the sketch....Very scary.

I am sure there have been other nut jobs who have confessed to this crime that the Police have ruled out.

Why then, are they making such a big deal out of this guy?

i can only hope that it is because they have more on him then they are prepared to say now .

But I agree with Easy...

Get the DNA results.

If they are not a match at least this predator is off the streets.

<except from an AP story>

Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul of the Thai immigration police changed some details Friday of the account he had given of what Karr told investigators. In a telephone interview Thursday with The Associated Press, Suwat quoted Karr as saying he had sexually assaulted the girl and given her drugs. He also told reporters before a news conference Thursday that Karr had claimed to have picked up JonBenet at her school.

On Friday, Suwat confirmed to the AP his account of the sexual assault. But asked Friday if Karr gave the girl drugs, Suwat said the suspect described the encounter with JonBenet Ramsey as "a blur."

"It may have been drugs, or it may have been something else because (Karr said) it was a blur, blur," Suwat said.

Suwat also said Friday that his statement about the girl being picked from school was based on a documentary he had seen and not the interrogation.
______

Guess everybody knows that the early reports that he was in jail in Thialand were incorrect. Thia interest in him was only because of US interest. In other words, he's not looking for "a better jail."

SNAFU ...

Remaining: Was he in Boulder at Christmas 1996? Ex-wife says the family was in Alabama. But I did hear on TV Wednesday night, that somebody from Boulder placed him there at the time.

Query: Wouldn't we already have DNA on this guy from the California arrest? Wouldn't they already have compared that DNA to the JBR DNA?
(I've read that a mouth swab was done in Thialand.)

In one e-mail, Karr asked Tracey to visit the Ramseys' house in Boulder, Colo., and read aloud an ode he called "JonBenet, My Love."

"JonBenet, my love, my life. I love you and shall forever love you. I pray that you can hear my voice calling out to you from my darkness — this darkness that now separates us," it read, in part.

In others, he described his paranoia after being the target of what he described as a federal investigation for "child murder and molestation."

Below are excerpts from e-mails obtained Thursday by the Rocky Mountain News. (For more on Karr's e-mail exchange with Tracey, visit the Rocky Mountain News here.)


 "I am tortured mostly because of my present situation. I appreciate that you would refer to my childhood. It was unique."

 "I will tell you that I can understand people like Michael Jackson and feel sympathy when he suffers as he has. I do think that he is sexually attracted to certain children but could never divulge this. He made an attempt when he talked of sleeping with little boys but was completely misunderstood. I think he made an assertion and quickly had to back down. On the other hand, his comments might have had nothing to do with having the type of sex one might equate with the sense of the term, sex."

 "Again, I was talking about you in reference to more intensity. The investigation was Federal. It involved four states. Knowing now that you have my photo, I am not keen on telling you of the specific states. I lost every friend, contact and family member as a result of this investigation. Some of my closest little girls were questioned by the authorities which broke my heart into pieces. I will never have contact with anyone in my past ever again. I lost my identity when this happened. This was the easy part. The worst was yet to come."


Can you say whack job?

Sure...I knew you could.... :shock:

They need to get that guy off the street!  If those are his fantasies, he is a ticking timebomb.  If one little bit of it is true he needs to be put under the jail!

Jacque I agree...I will be very surprised if this whacko's DNA is a match!  He looked like HE was on drugs to me.  but I am damn glad they got this guy away from children!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/18/karr.questions/index.html

Source: Karr knew murder scene secrets


Friday, August 18, 2006; Posted: 1:57 p.m. EDT (17:57 GMT)


Karr's confession is not the end of the JonBenet Ramsey case, authorities caution.  

   
BOULDER, Colorado (CNN) -- John Mark Karr gave authorities graphic details about the condition of JonBenet Ramsey's body that have been kept secret for nearly a decade, a U.S. law enforcement source told CNN on Friday.

Those details were known only to the medical examiner and the investigators investigating the December 26, 1996 slaying of the 6-year-old beauty pageant competitor, the law enforcement official said.

Some of the details Karr shared were gruesome -- and accurate -- the source said. (Read about the crime scene)

Meanwhile, Ramsey family attorney Lin Wood told The Associated Press that JonBenet's mother Patsy Ramsey agreed to meet with the man who claimed to be her daughter's killer to help investigators.

But Patsy Ramsey died of ovarian cancer in June before the meeting took place, the AP said.

Karr, 41, said he believed Patsy Ramsey read his correspondence expressing remorse for JonBenet's death before she died. (Watch Karr describe contacting the Ramseys -- :44)

But Wood told the AP that Patsy Ramsey never received Karr's letters or e-mails because the correspondence was routed to police.

"He thought that he was corresponding with Patsy, but he wasn't," Wood told the news service.

Friday's developments lent further mystery to the high-profile murder case.

Karr was taken into custody Wednesday morning in Bangkok, Thailand, where he had just started a teaching job.

A U.S. warrant called for his arrest on suspicion of first-degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault.

He said he loved JonBenet, and killed her by accident. (Watch Karr's stunning admission -- 1:15)

Despite Karr's startling confession, many questions remain to be answered before authorities can say the case has been solved.

Questions about whereabouts
One of those questions was raised by Karr's former wife, Lara Karr, who says he was with her in Alabama or Georgia during the 1996 Christmas holidays.

JonBenet's body was found in the basement of the Ramsey home in Boulder, Colorado, early on the morning of December 26. Karr told reporters in Bangkok that he was with JonBenet in the basement when she died.

But Lara Karr's attorney, Michael Rains, said his client "sincerely believes there was no Christmas ... anytime between 1989 and 2000 when they were married ... when her husband was not with her and her family at Christmastime." (Watch forensic pathologist describe some of the holes in Karr's story -- 4:13)

Evidence from the Colorado crime scene contradicts Karr's version of events. JonBenet's death was violent, investigators found. An autopsy showed she received a massive blow to the head and was strangled with a rope that the killer tightened by twisting an attached paintbrush handle.

Karr has not publicly given details about how he got into the Ramsey house and, if he did so, how he found his away around the maze of rooms, hallways and closets.

Even police overlooked the storage room where JonBenet's body was found during their first search after the girl was reported missing.

Karr's connection to Colorado is also vague. Although his e-mail correspondence with a University of Colorado journalism professor led to his arrest in Thailand, authorities said, they have produced no evidence to show Karr was ever in Colorado.

The Rocky Mountain News published on its Web site Friday excerpts of what investigators say they believe are e-mails between Karr and professor Michael Tracey, including one that read: "JonBenet, my love, my life. I love you and shall forever love you. I pray that you can hear my voice calling out to you from my darkness..." (Read paper's account of e-mails)

Another question is Karr's familiarity with the Ramsey family.

Ramseys didn't know Karr
JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, said in an interview Wednesday that he did not know Karr. But a ransom note, found in the Boulder home after JonBenet went missing, addresses John Ramsey in a familiar tone, repeatedly using his first name and calling him a "fat cat."

The ransom note demanded $118,000, the amount he had received in a company bonus before his daughter was killed.

At a news conference Thursday, Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy said the case is still under investigation. "There is much more work that needs to be done now that the suspect is in custody."

"John Karr is presumed innocent," Lacy said. "Do not jump to judgment. Do not speculate. Let the justice system take its course."

The professor who put authorities on the trail of Karr took a similar tack.

"I don't know that he's guilty," Tracey told the AP. "Obviously, I went to the district attorney for a reason, but let him have his day in court and let JonBenet have her day in court and let's see how it plays out."

U.S. and Thai officials are working on clearing Karr's return to the United States, although no date for the transfer has been set.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and Thai authorities worked closely on the case for two months before Karr's arrest on Wednesday, ICE attache Ann Hurst said.

Officials in Bangkok said he had traveled to Thailand -- a country notorious for its child sex trade -- five times in the past two years.

CNN's Susan Candiotti contributed to this report.

I did a couple of simple searches for information about JonBenet Ramsey and turned up the autopsy report along with some graphic autopsy photos.  Some really gruesome stuff is out there and I would think someone that has been researching this case for the past 10 years would have seen and read everything by now.

I really don't know what to think about this guy.  I follwed this case, read all the books etc., but I feel that some of the things that are being reported can be misleading.
She did suffer a severe blow to the head but that was not known until the autopsy was done...there was no bleeding or open wound.  A maglite flashlight or something similar caused the head injury.
She was strangled with a garote, an instrument sometimes used during sexual assaults or by other wierdos during sex.
She was not raped, but there was evidence of a sexual assault.
There was evidence that an intruder may have entered the home through a window in the basement.  
And from earlier discussion...there was pinapple found in the stomach contents at autopsy.  A bowl of pinapple was found on the kitchen counter which no claims to have given her.
I am not a FREAK for following the Jon Benet case, it was just so disturbing, as is the case of Natalee.

I don't know if this freak was her killer but I do believe that it was an intruder.  That family has been through pure hell and I hope they get some closer.  At least Patsy Ramsey is in Heaven with her baby now.

Sorry I am having a special monkey day and can't spell!

No kidding!  I kind of think the marriage to a 14 year old and getting a 15 yr old pregnant might have been a sign to SOMEONE.  Yikes.

I would want to check out the twins who were delivered at home and died.

Mere I agree.  I said the same thing the other night.

The problem with this guy NOT being the murderer of JonBenet is the fact that he may have to be let back out on the streets.  I know he has to answer to those misdemeanor child porn charges in California.  But, those won't keep him behind bars for long.  This guys has some SERIOUS mental issues.  I almost hope that if he didn't do it, he's convicted anyway just to protect others from him.

Well, I really don't wish a man railroaded for crimes he may have not comitted, but...

Not only that...But if he did get convicted and didn't do it...

No justice would  be served and her killer would still be free.

This guy is one sick dude, but I'm not sure he killed JonBenet.  I wouldn't be surprised if he has molested some child somewhere.  I read in one article he worked as a private tutor in Germany for 3 young girls, and basically took care of them, got them up in the morning, made sure they took their baths, sounded more like a nanny.  This was after he left the California due to the child porn charges.  I would hate to be the parents of those girls, it's horrible to think of him taking care of young children.  Here's the link to the story:

http://tinyurl.com/hn5fn

As far as JonBenet, they have DNA evidence, a palm print, a shoe print, handwriting, really quite a bit of evidence, so if he is the killer, they should be able to match something up.  If not, he's just a nutjob. But still sounds like a dangerous nutjob, who shouldn't be on the streets.

I so agree, and that is why I am thinking that the Boulder DA moved in when they did to get him arrested.

He was about to teach at a school in Thailand and God forbid if he did something to a child with the Boulder police knowing what a perv this guy was...

They did the right thing imo.

They are taking flack now from some who say they rushed into this because they did not even check to see if he was in the state of Colorado on the night in question, but I think they did what they had to do.
For the sake of another innocent child.

First, I want to say this is an observation, and a first glance impression I got tonight with Hannity & Combs interview with Greg Ramsey, JonBenet's cousin.  IMO, he resembled this composite drawing more than Karr.  I think it was more the hairline & hair style and the facial structure.  Did anyone else see this?  No malice intended toward Greg...it was just my perception when viewing.

I agree, they definitely needed to get him out of that school.  It sounds as if he lost a lot of teaching jobs due to his inappropriate interest in young girls.  With all the publicity, it wouldn't surprise me if parents start questioning their children and some victims come forward.

Oh darn, I missed it...

Did you see the article in the Ledger today about Allison?

Quite an impressive resume on how often she helped out police in this country and around the world with her pyshic abilities.

Son of Sam, John Wayne Gacy just to name a couple.

She would never take any money for her help, all she asked was to be reimbursed for any expenses for travel etc...

She passed in 1999.

And he seems so spaced out and whacky.

Maybe he is in a daze now because of all the media attention but I'm sorry on sight alone, and after hearing him speak I would RUN FORREST RUN before I let him near any kid.

I don't see it so much in this picture, but in some of Karr's other pictures, I do see quite a resemblance between sketchman and Karr. Kind of spooky. Also, a neighbor reported seeing someone walking by the Ramsey house Christmas afternoon, who resembled the Ramsey's older son, John Andrew.  John Andrew was definitely in Georgia at the time, but there's a resemblance between John Andrew and Karr, I believe. Especially the way Karr looked 10 years ago. But none of it means anything if they can't place Karr in Boulder at the time.

Jaq, I'll have to check the article out...I know she had worked a lot in these cases.  I just had to ask if anyone else had the same thought...the hairstyle was so similar...

I hear that, he is strange!  Some of the people they've interviewed who grew up with him seem surprised, but not that surprised, if you know what I mean.  I think he's always been a little off.  Or a lot off.

Yep.  I mean look at the ages of his ex wives when he married them. One 13, but now they are saying she was even younger and the other wife 16.

Creep a zoid.

I've always believed someone broke into the Ramsey's house and killed JonBenet, but I've always thought it would turn out to be either an acquaintance of the family, like a business associate or family friend, someone who had worked on the house, like a construction worker or handyman, or at least someone who lived in Boulder and had been in the house during one of the Christmas open houses the Ramsey's held. Even if Karr could have flown to Boulder and killed her, then flown right back to Alabama, when did he become obsessed with her, and when did he case the house?  I suppose he could have seen pictures of her, or had some brief contact in Georgia since I believe his father lived close by some of the Ramsey's relatives, and might have seen her during a family visit, but I always thought it would be someone close by, who had time to observe JonBenet, and the family.

U.S. delegate visited John Karr a few hours ago.

All she would say is that he will be back in the States with in a week.

Karr had been living in thailand for several months.

Had just been hired in a prestigious school.

But he was frightening the children so he was sacked.

he was too strict.

What do we know about his past?

any proof where he was that night...

Denver Post :
Reporter:  We have not found anything to show that he had been to Colorado that night.  

Everybody we talked to said that he had no connection with Colorado at all. He is in the records of the board of education of trying to get a job.  It was after he left Alabama in 2001 perhaps.

married twice, he was 19 married to a 13 year old.  next time he was 27 and married a 16 year old.

Marriages both failed.

In the 2nd divorce degree she was afraid for the sake of her children.

One of his first jobs, sub teacher in Hamilton where he grew up, lasted about three months...superintendant said he was fired cause he was too intimate with the kids.  they sat in his lap, they combed his hair.  there were rumors flying around the town.  there was no criminal record but they got rid of him anyway.

He decided to move in California, perhaps for work. he managed to get several jobs as a sub teacher.

In 2001 he was arrested for child pornography, then he fled.  he was convicted in abstentia.


John Karr said he wrote letters .

Patsy was considering meeting with Karr if it could have helped.

Pam:  No, never heard the name until wed or thursday, only thing i was aware that patsy knew was info that she and john were given with the da.

we continuted a private investigation, john said he would never ever stop looking for the killer of my child.  we have never stopped. we have had private investigators looking....

then mary lacy came in and kept digging and i do not think she would have made this move if she did not have good reason to.

Yes, I was in the Boulder home many times....

The window in the basement was in a different room than jb was found.

I had only been down in the basement a few times.

The window that you have seen many times that was open, that would have been directly facing an alley way.

1st floor kitch, hall way etc...and then there was a little mezannine...

a butlers kitchen and then when you went up the back stairs or front, that would lead to the floor where you had burkes bedroon and jon benets...

further up the steps would have been patsy and john's room

My thought about john karr....

I am optomistic period that this will be solved at some point.

I don't know if this guy is the one or not....

I don't think this guy is dealling with a full deck of cards...but yet I would say that it takes a person like this who could do something like that.

Coming up:

Key Clues...

Dr Baden coming up.

Yes, and from what I have heard they had a lot of people doing work in there house and sets of keys were given to some people.

Anyone could have made copies and come back...and they would have known the lay out of the house, which was like a maze.

Only in the beginning did I think they may have had something to do with it.  But the more I saw them I felt no way.

These people were hurting and I believed them.

on the record

continued...


aug 18 06

Dr. Baden:

(drawing of the basement on now)

broken window, alley runs back.

Body found in the lower part. what kind of clues would you have found?

As Mark Fuhrman pointed out, that window still had cobwebs around it when the window was first seen.

An entomoligist said that the cobweb could have been broken then respun.

Baden: there could have been fingerprints, fabric from clothing, shoe prints, and i think that was looked for eventually but not initially, and the crime scene was not preserved from the beginning.

And how the body was brought in is also a confusing scenario.

There was dna, if it matches Karr, then it's a home run.

They have the profile of jon benet's dna will not deterioate.

If any of it matches this is a homerun...

They should have done this BEFORE they arrested him and made this international incident.

They have forensic capability in Thailand to have tested his dna.

John Karr emails:

Sometimes little girls are closer to me than they are to their own parents.

He indentifies with people like M. Jackson.

He then asked this college professor to go to her home and asked him to read the ode to her he wrote.

Jeff Brwon:  He is a whacko. he is. but there is a difference between being crazy and being a killer.

Jim:

I do alot more investigationg, but you do not want to rush the gun.  THe key will be the dna.   This whacko could have attached himself to this case for attention.

Jeff:  He had outstanding warrants against him, they could have picked him up for that.  I think he wanted a free ticket back to the US.

My understanding is he had no idea they were looking for him.  I don't know why they rushed.

Jim: in defense of the da , they were trying to get a dna sample fromhim.  He could be a whacko or a killer.

(or both....my words, not jims)


You would think that someone connected to him could put him in Colorado but no one can.

Greta:  at least there is a connection that he applied for a teaching job there.

Jeff Brown: that press conference was crazy. they were just praising everyone. I am scared to death they have the wrong guy here.

Coming up:

Polly klass case.

Jim also pointed out that they may have had to arrest Karr to get the DNA sample, which makes sense.  You can't just go up and stick a swab in someone's mouth.

According to divorce papers...

karr was fascinated with the guy who killed Polly Klaas.  Richard alan davis.

They searched his cell today, and looked at records, but could not find that any correspondence had taken place between the two.

We went thru the material today, we are now convinced that there was any corrpndce took place.

Jim:  If this is correct and he is making up, it appears this guy has a pattern of making things up, and liking little girls...

one thing in the da's favor..if he gave details about the murder scene that no one else knew. that could mean something.

Greta: why the public press conference...this could have beendone privately.   investigate, but keep it on a low profile.

Jeff:  he will be brought back, have an arraignment and then do the discovery phase part.

without even a formal command,,,,,they may not waive speedy trial.

Jim:

I think that all these mysteries are going to be resolved soon. with the results from the dna.  If the dna does not match.....this is not your guy.

Coming Up:

Speaker of the house Newt.

Never mind, I see my last comment was already covered in Jacqueline's recap of the show. Thanks for the recap, I didn't hear the first part of the show.

Ya know, I wish in a way that they arrested him but made it on the down low.

Then after the DNA results were in and if they matched, THEN announce it.

They could have done that right?

Jacquie -- thanks for the summaries/transcripts.

I too, have a hard time watching MSM this days :D You make it much easier for me 8)

.

This makes me think of the creepy poems that Charles Croes  writes
 :shock:  :shock:

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/suspects-e-mails-yearbook-possible/20060816163809990004?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Suspect's E-Mails, Yearbook Possible JonBenet Clues
'Sometimes Little Girls are Closer to Me Than With Their Parents'
By DEBORAH HASTINGS, AP

BOULDER, Colo. (Aug. 19) - The writings are the stuff of love letters: unrequited obsession, reaching beyond the grave, from a man who pledges all to someone he can never have.

They were written to a dead 6-year-old girl by a teacher named John Mark Karr, who also claims he killed the child, JonBenet Ramsey, in her parents' home 10 years ago. And now anything he's ever written is headline fodder.

Boulder prosecutors are in contact with a former classmate of Karr's because a yearbook signed by him more than 20 years ago may explain why a ransom note in the Ramsey home was signed "S.B.T.C.", the Rocky Mountain News reported Friday.

In the 1982 yearbook, Karr ended his missive with the line: "Though, deep in the future, maybe I shall be the conqueror and live in multiple peace." Investigators wonder if "S.B.T.C" means "shall be the conqueror."
   
The newspaper also published excerpts of the worshipful e-mails Karr sent to University of Colorado journalism professor Michael Tracey, who produced several documentaries on the Ramsey case.

"JonBenet, my love, my life. I love you and shall forever love you," according to an e-mail Karr sent on Dec. 23, 2005, just before the anniversary of her death. "I pray that you can hear my voice calling out to you from my darkness - this darkness that now separates us."

"Sometimes little girls are closer to me than with their parents or any other person in their lives. When I refer to myself as JonBenet's Closest, maybe now you understand," he wrote in another message.

Police asked JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey, if she would meet with Karr. The mother was willing, but she died from ovarian cancer in June before investigators went any further, family attorney Lin Wood said.

And she never saw Karr's words because his messages were secretly being intercepted by authorities. "He thought that he was corresponding with Patsy, but he wasn't," Wood told The Associated Press.

Karr, 41, is in a Thailand jail awaiting deportation to face U.S. charges of first-degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault. He told reporters he was with JonBenet when she died in the basement of her Boulder home on Dec. 26, 1996 but her death was "an accident."

Karr is scheduled to fly to the United States on Sunday, a police official said Saturday.

"The tickets for John Mark Karr's departure are ready," Thailand's immigration police chief, Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul, told reporters. "He is leaving for the United States on Sunday evening."

A U.S. Embassy official, speaking on condition of anonymity, could not confirm Karr's departure date, saying that authorities were working through legal paperwork to expedite his deportation.

On Friday, Suwat recanted details he gave of Karr's confession - details that raised suspicions that Karr was lying to gain entry to a sensational killing that fascinated him.

Suwat initially said Karr confessed to sexually assaulting the girl and giving her drugs. But her autopsy showed no signs of drugs. He also told reporters that Karr had claimed to have picked up JonBenet at school, though her death came during the holiday break.

On Friday, Suwat confirmed to the AP his account of the sexual assault. But asked if Karr gave the girl drugs, Suwat said the suspect described the encounter as "a blur." Suwat said the part about JonBenet being picked from school was based on his recollection of watching a documentary about the case.

Other Karr claims drew scrutiny Friday: Prison guards searched the death row cell of Polly Klaas' killer after learning he may have corresponded with Karr. No letters were found.

But a Northern California woman exchanged e-mails and recorded hours of phone conversations with Karr in which he described his fascination with JonBenet's and Polly's slayings, according to published reports.

Wendy Hutchens, 49, of Roseville, Calif., told police about her 2001 conversations with Karr weeks before the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office arrested him on five misdemeanor child pornography charges, The Press Democrat of Santa Rosa reported Friday in its online edition.

There is no public piece of evidence tying Karr, a divorced father of three, to Colorado. Eric Yoder, an investigator for the Colorado Department of Education, said Karr was never licensed to teach in the state and there is no record of him applying for a teaching job.

In Washington, federal officials said they want to question Karr about his writings and confessions, including an e-mail from Karr claiming he was under investigation in four states for child murder and molestation.

"There is no four-state federal case" in which Karr is wanted or even suspected, said a Washington official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the case is being handled by local prosecutors in Colorado.

Tracey, the professor, refused to discuss the e-mails he received from Karr.

The Ramseys' attorney suggested authorities may have more against Karr than his confession. "There have been e-mail confessions in the case before," Wood said. "John Ramsey has received e-mail confessions in the past and nobody was arrested."

Patsy Ramsey's sister said the family would wait and watch.

"We are optimistic, but it's wait-and-see," said Pamela Paugh from her home in Roswell, Ga. "We've been patient for nine and a half years, what's a few more months?"

Associated Press writers Harry R. Weber in Atlanta, Matt Apuzzo in Washington, Doug Gross in Roswell, Ga., and Margie Mason in Bangkok contributed to this report.


8/19/2006 03:56:34 EDT

I don't know what to think!  There are some very strange circumstances surrounding all of this.  The guy will be flying back to the U.S. tomorrow, so maybe next week some of it will become more clear.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  He is definitely a weird duck.

I am interested in the handwriting sample from the yearbook and the ranson note. The "a's" are the same.

The ransom note is somewhat sloppy but if I compare my handwriting in my yearbook to mine now, it has degraded considerably.

Could mystery santa stuffed animal prove to be something?

A stuffed animal that was dressed up like santa was found in Jon Benet's bedroom, and the family say that was not one of her toys and do not know where it came from.

John Karr has a photo with himself and a similar santa stuffed animal.

In any event.....

karr will be arriving in California Sunday evening.

I agree Jacquie. I can't wait until they get results from dna tests.

I haven't read the news yet, so I hadn't heard about the possible Santa connection.

He is creepy though.

And all those other children he was in contact with -- physical contact :shock:

And the marriages. And the reasons for the divorces and restraining order. Even if this confession is just another part of this sick #@*^ game, they need to find another reason to keep him off the streets and away from juveniles.

imo


.

Even as authorities were preparing to extradite John Mark Karr, a teacher who admitted involvement in the 6-year-old's death a decade ago, her father was hounded by camera crews Friday as he took his son to college at Purdue University, attorney Lin Wood said.

"He cannot go back to his home in Michigan because it is surrounded by the media," Wood said. "Last night, I've never heard him so angry. He is upset. He is worried about his son's physical safety … I'm not sure John Ramsey will ever speak to a member of the media after what happened to him yesterday."

It appears that the media is closing in on John Ramsey.

I don't get how it is ok for reporters to set up camp outside someones home, invade their privacy ~

But if an average Joe did this it would be considered stalking.

Saw this evening on FOX that Trace Galager said the 'Santa Bear' was found to be an award that JBR won in one her contests.

So wasn't left behind by any mysterious stranger.

Ah, thanks Car.

The evidence keeps getting thinner and thinner.

thank you for the scribing Jac... I missed these shows...


This guy guilty of this crime or not.. should never be around kids...

John Karr on plane to US.

Photographers were allowed on plane to take pic's of him.

The DNA sample he gave in Thailand is still be anyalyzed.

He once sought a Dr's consultation in reference to having a sex change.

This guy is one sick cookie.  Good news about a sex change is that if he "loses his manhood"- at least we know he won't get any more 12 yr olds pregnant.  He needs to be locked up - if not in prison, then in a hospital.

Just heard them say someone from Fox is sitting near him on plane and he drank some champagne.  Give me a break.

Ya Know this is getting more bizarre as the days go by.

How long does it take to get those DNA results?

If it's not a match let's be rid of this sicko.

Someone posted on the front page that they know someone close to the investigation and the DNA results are in and NOT a match.  Take this with a grain of salt though.

This should be interesting.. I heard Wendy Murphy on Fox ... gotta love her.... talking about the Boulder DA basically saying... "Certainly she wasn't so STUPID as to not make a simple phone call to that ex wife to find out where he was that Xmas.... etc. etc."  You can just hear her sarcasm... Point is that if this guy is simply a nut case (which sadly I expect) then some heads need to roll in Boulder (again).

Sigh - I sure hope that I am wrong.

One of the latest AP articles stated that Karr was not extridited, he was expelled from Thailand as an "undesirable".  How does one get expelled from a country where anything goes???.  I will try to find the article, but am not sure I know how to bring it into the forum.

I heard that on one of the Fox news reports also. I understood that the reason he was expelled was because of the arrest for JonBenet's murder, but I could be wrong.  The sex change operation story is really weird, I didn't think men who wanted to have sex change operations were usually pedophiles, yet this guy has been convicted of child porn charges, and sure sounds like a pedophile.  He either wants to have sex with little girls (after all he married a 12 year old when he was 19) or he wants to become a girl.  Can you have both problems in the same guy?

Guess he always wanted to be a lesbian?

http://tinyurl.com/s4g8r

Source: Karr visited sex-change clinic
By SUTIN WANNABOVORN, Associated Press Writer
Sun Aug 20, 3:55 AM ET
 
The suspect in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey visited a Bangkok clinic specializing in sex-change operations and cosmetic surgery, clinic officials said Sunday.

Dr. Thep Vechwijit, a doctor at the Pratunam Polyclinic, said John Mark Karr, 41, had been his patient but declined to provide further details. "He was one of my patients," Vechwijit said.

A staffer at the clinic, who spoke on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to speak to the media, said Karr had consulted the doctor about a sex-change operation.

Karr was to be flown later Sunday to the United States to face charges of first-degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault in connection with the 1996 killing of 6-year-old Ramsey.

Thai police said that Karr was "a bit nervous" Sunday as Thai and U.S. officials prepared to fly him back to the United States.

"Generally he is fine, but a little bit nervous as the time of his departure approaches," immigration police head Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul told The Associated Press.

"We treat him well since he is a high-profile suspect. Yesterday he said that he wanted to eat American food so we ordered from Kentucky Fried Chicken for him, but this morning he had the standard breakfast," Suwat said.

Suwat said Karr would be taken out of his cell at the immigration department prison and taken to the airport for the 7:10 p.m. flight to Los Angeles. He is being expelled from Thailand and does not have to go through an extradition proceeding.

A U.S. Embassy official, speaking on condition of anonymity, did not confirm details of Karr's leaving, saying only that authorities were working to expedite his departure.

Karr was only being allowed visits from legal officials at the immigration jail.

On Sunday, an official at a Bangkok clinic specializing in sex change operations and cosmetic surgery said Karr has visited the facility.

A doctor at the Pratunam Polyclinic confirmed that the 41-year-old former schoolteacher had been one of his patients. But Dr. Thep Vechwijit declined to provide details of the consultation.

A staffer at the clinic, who demanded anonymity since she was not authorized to make statements to the media, said Karr had consulted the doctor about a sex-change operation.

This could not be confirmed by other sources.

The JonBenet Ramsey case, which people in Thailand were generally unaware of before Karr's arrest, has been drawing increasing attention. The local focus has been on the qualifications of expatriate teachers, and whether there are checks in place to weed out criminals and deviants.

A divorced father of three children once detained on charges of possessing child pornography, Karr in recent years apparently traveled to Europe, Central America and Asia to search for teaching jobs.

He was arrested a day after he began teaching second grade in Bangkok, Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy told reporters in Colorado. Thai authorities said he had also worked at two schools in Thailand.

An official at one of the Thai schools, the prestigious elementary school at Bangkok Christian College, said Karr was fired in mid-June after only two weeks on the job because he was too strict with students.

Thai Education Minister Chaturon Chaisang said Saturday he had ordered his ministry to look into the screening of foreigners seeking teaching jobs.

It has been too easy for unqualified foreigners to be hired, in part because those with the proper qualifications are too expensive for many schools, Chaturon was quoted as saying by the state Thai News Agency.

Well, that explains his "breasts" then... Probably already on estrogen.  

Many years ago, in college, I did a study on transexualism for biology class.  People who want a sex change TRULY believe they are trapped in the body of the wrong sex.  Seems to me he was doing just "fine" as a man, raping young girls and "marrying" them...  

I don't think he always wanted to be a lesbian... makes no sense.... I think he wanted to hide his identity.

Regardless - one sick puppy.

Yeah, a couple of standard deviations away from normal.

The more time goes on with this I am almost 100 percent certain this guy is not the guy who killed her.

I understand wanting to investigate him for a plethera of reasons but why did they have to make such an issue of this until they knew for sure?

Stupid move.

Unoh, here's a story that says a person can have two different DNA's in their own body.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2315693&page=1

Might cause problems with DNA matches on some things in the future.

There was a CSI episode where the perp had two different DNAs in his body.  
Explanation was he was a Chimera.  Have to look up that definition!  Part human, part something else in mythology, but for some logical biological reason, it can happen that a person has two strains of DNA.

??

how interesting... but then would you be the only with that match of DNA of either strain?

Yeah, just watched a show about this just last week (ABC Primtime: Medical Mysteries).  They profiled (2) women who the state was trying to take their kids away because DNA tests done to compare them did not match (even though in one case, the child was born in the presence of a state social worker).  Again, they threatened to remove the child from the home...

Turns out that this condition does, in fact, have the person carry (2) seperate DNA strands.  One is their own, and one is from a lost twin who lives microscopically inside the person.  Pretty strange stuff...but it does exist.

oh... I have heard about the twin thing... that's still kinda weird... and they were taking the kids just based on DNA?  We need to start another thread on this one... it's very interesting to me...

Yeah, basically, the mother was applying for financial assistance (i'm not sure if it was welfare or some other program).  Anyway, they tested the kids to make sure they were hers, and that she wasn't falsifying the application for her own economic gain.  When the test came back, they threatened to remove the kids from the home, as they were testing as not being hers.  That's the reason why they were going to take the kids initially...

It was a very interesting program though...

Well, John Karr arrived in Los Angeles today and a helicopter took him downtown to the Twin Towers jail. He will not drink champaign there, nor eat prawns. He had a bologna sandwich and an apple for lunch.

Does anyone want to discuss handwriting samples? We have three samples but I've only seen the yearbook and the ransom note but not his handwriting in Thailand.

A handwriting expert in Boulder declared at the time that the ransom note was written by Patsy Ramsey.

Anyone?

Do we have a handwriting sample of his, Louise?  I'd like to see what an expert has to say about it...

But, mostly I'm interested in hearing about DNA evidence...

Was there DNA evidence under Jon Bennet's fingernails as well as some in her panties?

And I'd like to know if his DNA matches up...

I haven't had a chance to keep up with the news these last couple of days ~ I'm getting ready for eye surgery tomorrow morning....  sorry ~ in a few days I'll be back up to speed...

FOX news is saying the exwife contends John Karr was home with her and the children on Christmas of 1996. She has produced some videos of John, of the children and of her ... but none of them show him with her and the children all together.

So he may very well have been in Boulder. My impression is that he was in Boulder for a while and knew the layout of the house.

There are also the emails he exchanged with a professor who finally alerted the authorities. I'd like to know more about them. Does anyone have info?

PS: The exwife also showed videos of when he was younger and he had that haircut you all call a "mullet." He played guitar and sang.

The Biography Channel is doing a piece on this case...

it's older I think...and it seems so slanted to the parents did it... and the DA and the police got into arguments...

I would love to know more about the handwriting... I just heard Greta say they said they couldn't prove it was Patsy's writing but they couldn't prove it wasn't...

I hope there is closure for this case eventually!!

KatzHome,

I'm going to look for the samples. I find that part fascinating.

Best of luck on your eye operation.

With love, Louise

I am watching this special... there was a stun gun used on this poor child?  there was a foot print and hand print in the basement.... WOW... I didn't knwo a lot about this case... not at all...

there was evidence that the grate was moved and that there was evidence that there was an intruder....

Thank you, Louise {{{hugs}}}  I love you!


And, yeah, Mrs. Red ~ there were marks like from a stun gun on her...  I kinda wish I got that channel...

But, I'm supposed to be cleaning anyways!!!!!   :lol:

As for the handwriting and the note:

John Ramsey was cleared of not writing it by experts...

As for Patsy, no expert actually said she wrote the note but one said that there were a couple of similarities with some letters and that she could not be entirely ruled out.

IMO handwriting anylasis is a good tool, but not an exact science.

I honestly in my heart do not think Patsy had anything to do with the death of her daughter.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-21-ramsey-suspect_x.htm?csp=24

Lance Clem, spokesman for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, said Monday that no DNA from Karr had been sent to the state lab. An analysis could be done within two days, said Kevin Lothridge of the National Forensic Science Technology Center in Largo, Fla., which audits crime labs for the U.S. government.

For crying out loud, Jacq ~ what are they waiting for?  Do they need a court order to get a sample from him or something like that?

I had so hoped that they had found Jon Bennet's murderer ~ but I'm just not so sure that they have...

I'm waiting on the DNA testing...

For some reason, even though they took the dna sample in Thailand, they have not sent it over here yet.

Actually, I would feel better if we just took our own sample and had it tested.  It really should not take too long...

How you doin????

Yeah ~ I'd prefer it if we just took our own sample too.  And it shouldn't take all that long to get the results either...

DNA under her fingernails?  Do I have that right?  And also in her panties?  I'm leaning towards trusting the fingernails more...

I'm doing good ~ and how about you?  Just doesn't look like I'm gonna get any sleep tonight...  I guess I'll sleep real good later on, when I get home....   :lol:

Yes, there was male dna under her fingernails and in her panties that could not be matched.

Did I read somewhere where you are getting eye surgery?

Wishing you a speedy recovery!

I only read about the DNA under her fingernails since they caught this guy in Thailand...  and I was hoping it wasn't just a rumor...

And yeah ~ I am ~ and thank you very much for the well wishes!  {{{hugs}}}

I'm really getting sleepy ~ I think I'm going to lie down for a half hour nap or something...

A law enforcement official said last week on condition of anonymity that Karr was given a mouth-swab DNA test in Bangkok, but the results of that test were not known.

The Boulder district attorney's spokeswoman declined to comment on any evidence in the case.

Gimme a break with this nonsense...

Don't tell me they're taking tips from how ALE runs their investigations.................... :roll:

Enjoy!
I love naps.... :lol:

You know they've gotta get this one right, Jacq...  I think they want it to be him so bad...  to finally catch the person who did that to her...

ALE should catch a clue from them ~ and FIND some evidence against Joran & company...

And yeah ~ naps are cool.... so hard to post back...  falling asleep in the middle...  see ya in a bit ~ I have the alarm set...  nighters...

I know...Patience is a virtue.....

Catch ya later....

Nighty night.... :wink:

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=41190

Karr waves extradition.

Lawyer: Photo Proves Karr Was Not In Colorado

A 1996 photo of a Karr family holiday gathering is giving the family more reason to believe John Karr couldn't have been with 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey when she was killed at the same time in Boulder.

Gary Harris, the lawyer for Karr's relatives, told The Denver Post and The Washington Post Karr's father has found a photo of Karr's three sons during the Christmas dinner in Atlanta. He said the family is certain that if the sons were there, then Karr would have been there, too.

Harris said the photo is from 1996 because an infant pictured in it was born in the same month of the same year.

Ray’s parents said they discovered letters Karr wrote to their daughter that were signed “SBTC.” Those are the same initials found on a ransom note left in the Ramsey home.

Above quote from Karr's first wife.

This is downright weird.

I hope this is not true....


http://tinyurl.com/jjeo7

Oh brother.

This was one sloppy investigation.

They need to start all over...

Jaq... thanks for bringing all of the info over and the transcripts.... I read them every day when I see  new info posted.. even if I am not talking  - because I am really just learning about this case... I am following you!!

Cubbee... thanks for that info....

doesn't sound good at all... :(

I have a cousin who lived in Boulder at the time of this.

I paid very close attention and spoke with him to about it.

I don't think the Boulder PD was equipped to handle a murder investigation of this magnitude and they compromised the crime scene in a major way.

It's a damn shame.

One of the high ranking police officials resigned because at the time,  he had the intruder theory and the others refused to look any other way than the Ramseys.

I saw that on the Biography Channel show I watched about this case... there was one that was completely convinced it was them and another that thought it wasn't and they both resigned....

what a sad, sad state of affairs for this poor child!!

[quote="
I saw that on the Biography Channel show I watched about this case... there was one that was completely convinced it was them and another that thought it wasn't and they both resigned....

what a sad, sad state of affairs for this poor child!![/quote]

Yes indeed.

Boulder is a wonderful community.

But when it came to investigating this they should have accepted help from the FBI from the beginning.

People were allowed in and out of that house, up and down.

It was never preserved as a crime scene.

But just to show that cold cases do get solved.......

Read this:

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1156310541169680.xml&coll=1

Man arrested thirty years after murder .....

Sad but true Jacq, and I agree with you...they were not equipped to handle an investigation of this magnitude even if the crime scene had not been compromised.

http://www.ktvotv3.com/Global/story.asp?S=5316738&nav=1LFs

John Karr's family hiring Larry Garrison....

Does anyone have any kind of reaction good, bad, or indifferent to the fact that Larry Garrison was hired by Karr's family?

Am I the only one a little shocked at this? :roll:

Nope it doesn't surprise me one bit.. We keep forgetting that Greta, Larry, etc. are not our friends and have different agenda's then most on this site..  One of the things that I also noticed is that we want to think that we are playing a game and therefore we need to play fair.. This is not a game, Natalee was killed and raped by these PIMPS..  I had to shake my head when I saw that another site taking the high road removed pictures of other kids that had their pictures with Joran.. Well if you have your picture taken with a psycho then you deserve your picture posted everywhere.. I guess I will say that it was Natalee's fault that she got killed and raped, she shouldn't of said NO..  So the criminals make money and fame while the victims most likely will never get their day in court because we care more for the psycho's than we do the victims..

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2339385&page=1

this story just keeps getting more bizarre.

Apparently Karrs mother tried to kill him when he was a baby......

We should ignored these idiots and locked them up forever..  I want to say that Joran is feeling the heat but you know the truth is I think he likes the attention and the shots of him with different girls and going to different parties seemed that he isn't suffering too bad for being a rapist and murderer..  He is Aruba's Idol and they love him over there..

I agree I think he is eating it up.

Just like OJ...

Sad commentary.

The article didn't give much information except to say that Larry acquired the rights to Karr's story.  It doesn't mean there will ever be an officially sanctioned book written from Karr's point of view, or that the Karr family will make any money.  Sometimes obtaining the rights to a story can be a good thing.

I think you have to understand that Karr hasn't been proven guilty...he might just be one of the many who have confessed to the crime...so maybe Larry is going after the story to get to the bottom of who he really is.  That's what news journalists do.  Larry has stated he looks at all sides of a story to be fair and balanced.

So let's not jump to conclusions or start doubting someone who is very pro-Natalee.  Look at all he has done to help further the cause of getting to the truth about what happened in Aruba.

Larry will be on "Entertainment Tonight" and "Showbiz Tonight"  tonight  ...maybe he'll explain.

Whether or not he killed Jonbenet or not is not the issue.


The guys is a pedophile. He has a record.  
 
Unless I misread, it did state that a percentage of the earnings of the book will go to the Karr children for a college fund.

Garrison can do whatever he wants it's a free Country.  And you are right, he is a journalist, he is going after a story.

He is also trying to make a buck.

That does not take away the good things he has done for Natalee.

Not saying it does.

But it does strike me as odd , that someone who appears to be a victims advocate would get involved in any way shape or form with this character.


JMHO.

I guess I don't see Nancy Grace representing John Karr..  I agree 99% with Jacqueline on this one, he is giving this piece of ((*(*&(*7 air time and he should just be locked up and forgotten about..  If he wants a sex changed, I will do it for free, give me an old rusted butter knife and I will make sure its done right..  We want to make excuses for these characters and you know what, sometimes there is none.. He is twisted and just needs to be locked up forever..

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2342091&page=1


The conversations with Hutchens depict a man overtaken by his attraction to young girls. "They're so beautiful some of them … just overwhelming, dripping with attractiveness."

I've kissed little girls on the mouth and they've actually most of the time initiated the kiss, but I've kissed little girls on the mouth," the man on the recording says. "I've never French kissed a little girl in my life. But … I've been kissed by them. I've held them. I've caressed them."

Soon after those recordings were made, Karr was arrested and charged in Sonoma County with possession of child pornography.

Above are parts excerpts of a woman in LA who knew John Mark Karr.  They both met with a shared interest of another serial killer.

This guy is a waste product.

I'm sorry......the idea of in any way shape or form he will make money off a book and movie rights, even if it is only a percentage, sickens my gullet.

I have my thoughts of whats wrong with our own justice system.  We have judges that released these perverts to kill or sexually assault kids over and over again.. I think our justice system should be about the victims and not about the criminals anymore.. So the judges that sit on cases should have first hand knowledge about the type of case they are sitting on.. The jury should be madeup of a jury of the victims peers and not the criminal..  Thats how a  scum attorney like Joe T. can get his clients off so easy..  How can someone give justice on the jury when the jury is a jury of the criminal peers and it seems that some of our judges are the same..

I don't want to punish the criminals family but they shouldn't profit from the crime that one of their family members commited.. I was never one to sit for long waiting to see what would happen, I usually jump into whatever and made it happen.. "I lots rather be wrong then doubtful".. You can live with your mistakes but not knowing is the worsed...

Well, I can see both sides... I agree with SunFreak... and what if the story helps find the real killer?  

This woman on Nancy Grace, she sounded just like OUR Anna!!

Remember it was Larry Garrison that told us about Julia's book... and like SunFreak said  just because you have the rights doesn't necessarily mean you will ever even write the book....

The thing is this... books, etc. are a business - if we have an issue with Larry, then do we have an issue with every pundit?  I dunno... I'm not that upset with it at this point... I don't think I have enough information.....

I don't see how writing a book is going to help find the killer.

This guy is a delusional nutcase.

There is plenty of coverage on this case, there is no need for it to get out to the people by writing a book on this guy.

And even the idea that this sick pervert's family might even profit from the death of this child is sickening to me.

I thought that is what the SON OF SAM law was all about.

I have to side with Terry on this one....

Too many rights and privelages given to the criminals, and not the victims.

I guess this case and so many other things in life are like design meetings that I have been to.. Just too much discussing and nothing is ever done.. Will we be discussing this case 10 years from now?  The sad fact is the longer it takes the less chance you have of ever finding the person or persons that committed the crime.. I know there are rare cases but these cases are like "Recently a two-headed calf was born at a farm in Russia’s Vologda region. Unfortunately, farmers failed to save its life."  They are rare and I go with the odds that the longer it takes the more difficult the case is to convict or solved..  Witnesses die and peoples memory is not as sure of things then they are 10 years before..  This is my opinon and I know its not what people like to hear.. I been a consultant too long to tell you what you want to hear..

It is rare Terry...you are so right.

Recently in my home state a man was caught and arrested for a murder he committed as a child (13) 30 years ago!

I posted an article earlier on this , on this thread.

And believe me it is a big deal indeed that after all this time and arrest was made.  This case had no publicity compared to the magnitude of JoNbenet and Natalee....but somehow they did make an arrest.

Now the dilemma is do they try him as an adult, or a child.

First hearing he was in Family Court, cause he was just a child when this happened.

Very strange indeed.

And what kind of nutcase family offers up their relatives life story just to make money?

Most people would be embarrassed as hell if their relative was involved in something like this, and these people are trying to make money out of it.

Sick. Sick. Sick.

I guess another hazzard of litigation is that the crime that he committed 10 years ago is that the people that he hurt are no longer here, or the people that knew the case are gone and only notes are left.. Its really hard to reverse engineer something someone else did a long time ago..A decade our values changed, I mean when I was a kid you wouldn't see what we see on normal tv or hear on the radio the songs they sing.. So every 10 years our values do change and I'm not sure if that is good or bad.. I guess its something to do with survival..  Anyway if they don't have any DNA on this creep, then shut him up and throw away the key..  He has nothing of value to say..

He has had his 15 minutes of fame.

15 minutes too long.

Karr will be in Colorado next week.

His lawyers are upset with the wall of silence they are getting from the Boulder DA.

Sistah... I  just posted to you on the other thread...

I don't know if it's necessarily a bad thing that LG has the rights to this story... just because he has the rights doesn't mean that there will ever be a story -I just reserve judgment...until I have more information...

I really hope they have some DNA to closed this case but I think not.. I would loved to be wrong on this one but I think not..  I don't think he is sick, I think he knows exactly what he is doing in his own twisted way..  I think he likes the attention..  He put himself around children and I just hope he never touched any of them but I believe he has..

I was having a conversation about that earlier tonight... our values have totally changed...


and I am watching the taped conversation on Hannity on Colmes...

that was the most bizarre "conversation" or "confession" I heard...

I thought she was dead so I bashed her in the head?  WTF... why if she is dead would you bash her???  Makes no sense...

BTW, I do agree that this pervert should just be locked up...

and now Dr Baden is saying that the confession isn't true...

Earlier in the conversation, it was stated that someone leaked the imminent arrest to the media....

Boulder DA would have preferred to have a quiet arrest then continue to investigate.

I'm leaning towards Dr. Badens opinion.

False confession.

LOVE YOU MY SISTAH>>>>>>>> :wink:

Honey Hush... you know I love my sistah!!!
 I agree false confession ... but I guess what I want to know is why would you do that... make a false confession... and the tape didn't make sense to me... seems like this Karr guy has needed to say something to get caught even before now... so he's not an innocent school teacher...

Actually, if they can't get Karr on the JBR case, he'll most likely go free.

All California wanted him on was misdemeaner child porn charges that he skipped on.

That Sonoma tape wasn't really a confession it was a 'What if' theory thing about what the real 'killer' might have been thinking or would be doing.

Carnut... I was just seeing that.. I didn't hear the what if or how would you part before....

still that was a pretty twisted way of thinking....

I think the Colo DA has stumbled big time.

The guy is such a wannabe.

I'm pretty sure Karr is just fantasing his story from all the info he could get about the case.

Course I don't want to bet a very large amout on money that he walks, but....

Oh Car, I think we all agree that he is going to walk... and I don't think he should due to all his other issues with the girls... but you are right he probably will walk and he will just continue to molest little girls... and that really stinks...

I hope he runs that mouth one too many times or something... but he doesn't need to be walking around...

Book, film rights offered to pay for Karr's defence

LOS ANGELES John Mark Karr's relatives offered up book and film rights to the family's story yesterday in hopes of raising money for a high-powered lawyer to defend Karr against charges he killed six-year-old JonBenet Ramsey.

"They're not looking for money for themselves," said Larry Garrison, a producer the family hired to represent them in media deals. "They're looking to support John's boys' college education and to make sure all legal fees are covered."

Karr remained in a Los Angeles jail yesterday, awaiting transfer to Colorado where JonBenet was killed in her Boulder home in December 1996.

Garrison said no money has changed hands yet with the Karrs and he didn't want to go into details about the agreement. Karr's brother, Nate Karr, confirmed Garrison is now representing the family.

Karr said in Thailand last week he was present when JonBenet died and her death was an accident.

He did not specifically say he killed her and Boulder prosecutors have not disclosed their evidence against him.

His family has insisted Karr was in Georgia during the Christmas week JonBenet was killed.

Hmmmmmm that seems to me as if they are looking for money for themselves.

Guess they never heard of Public Defenders and student loans.

Oh this makes me so mad I could spit.

http://www.wxii12.com/news/9730458/detail.html

Suspect Karr ran a day care from his home at one time.
 :shock:

Thanks Jaq... that was interesting...

I'll tell ya ...

This is a freak show on wheels!

This guy sure did get around traveling in this world.

Associated Press
Costa Rica Landlord: Karr Was a Pervert

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/08/24/ap2971548.html

While in custody in Bangkok last week, John Mark Karr, the suspect in the 1996 killing of JonBenet Ramsey, spoke with Thai officials. In its new issue, PEOPLE has exclusive excerpts of the interviews.

On JonBenet's death:
The Ramseys "feel their daughter was brutally murdered, and she wasn't," Karr told a Thai official. "It looks like that but she wasn't. I want them to hear the truth. ... I need closure and (JonBenet's) family needs closure. ... All of us have gone through enough pain."

On people who doubt his guilt:
"(The media) is beginning to shut up about me being crazy and all that stuff. This is not a laughing matter, it's something serious. ... The world is not laughing as much now."

More on This Story
John Mark Karr: His Dark Past
JonBenet's Mom Almost Met Suspect
JonBenet Suspect Claims Her Death Was 'an Accident'
On why he confessed:
"We all need to put this chapter in place, which is a conclusion, and then start the healing. The healing is what I want to start happening. To heal and feel better about what happened."

On how he is misunderstood:
"People say I am a monster and a horrible person. They don't know me ... they won't approve of what happened. (But) I don't approve of what happened."

Did he have accomplices?
"No, I was alone."

Was this a brutal killing?
"It's not what that seemed to be."

On the DNA test:
"The DNA might not match, but you can't trust the test."

On his ex-wife giving him an alibi:
"It's normal that people in a family protect you."

On JonBenet:
"Worse than anything, JonBenet is gone. She is here only in spirit."
Try 4 Issues of PEOPLE Risk Free
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Yep, just a sign of the times, always must think of 'helping the kids'.

No one has to support themselves anymore.

Heck the guy has been away from the family since 2001, why should the family get money from his exploits now?

Also, who the heck has been paying for his travels?

I have been asking that very same question Carnut....
How does this guy afford to be an International Traveler??

http://et.tv.yahoo.com/celebrities/15518/

Karr en route to Boulder today.

State Police plane taking him there.

hey did y'all think of this... if Karr is blowing smoke... there is no story?

Yes, I did Mrs.

And what strikes me as funny.....

If Karr's family is so sure that he was not in Colorado and that he did not do it...

Why go to the lengths of trying to hire a high profile attorney and a media manager to improve his image?  When the DNA comes back and it is not a match as I think will happen.....He will be outta the picture so to speak.

So are they trying to cash in now while the story is still hot?

I don't know... interesting question... I think maybe they are just trying to absorb what is going to happen to the kids... they probably need therapy  - I just don't think he is guilty... I think he's a disgusting freak who had too many times he got away with it and decided that he would be famous through this case... only answer I can come up with.....

Did you ever read the book "In Cold Blood" ? OR see the movie Capote.. I suspect if he did do this then a book would be similar....

I don't think he did it either.

Yep read the book and saw the movie.

Chilling.

Making a buck off tragedy
By Boston Herald editorial staff
Friday, August 25, 2006

It is perhaps as inevitable as it is grotesque: The father and brother of John Mark Karr, now facing charges in connection with the death of JonBenet Ramsey, have hired author and producer Larry Garrison to represent the family in any book or media deals that might come out of this increasingly bizarre case.
 
 JonBenet Ramsey:  Related articles, multimedia & images » Raw Video: Karr Home Movies» Break in the Ramsey Case: Complete AP Video Coverage» AP Video: John Karr Waives Extradition to Colorado» AP Video: After Luxurious Flight, Karr Held in Isolation» AP Video: Who is John Mark Karr?» Confession raises doubt: Suspect’s rambling story full of holes, DNA eyed as crucial» A tragedy nears an end» AP Video: New Facts on Arrest in JonBenet Murder» AP Video: JonBenet: A look back at the case» AP Video: John Ramsey: Let ‘justice run its course’» AP Video: Aunt: JonBenet’s mom ‘rejoices’ in heaven
 
    Is this a great country or what!
 
    A 6-year-old child is dead. Her family has been devastated by the loss and by the suspicions cast on them for almost a decade, but hey, when isn’t it right to make a buck off tragedy?

    Oh, sure there are reasons galore advanced by Karr’s family for the deal, including their intentions to use any proceeds to help cover Karr’s legal fees and put his own three sons through college.
 
    “These people are spiritually coming from the right place,” Garrison insisted. “They’re really good people. They’re family oriented. They’re not greedy. They’re looking for the spin to stop.”
 
    Yep, looking for the spin to stop and looking in all the wrong places - like, say, Hollywood.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/446653p-375951c.html

Perv lands in Colorado pen  

Ahhhhh by the title alone I knew this came from A NEW Yawk Paper...

GOD I LOVE THAT CITY!

Well I do love the title Perv lands in Colo. Pen... that's great!!

As for the Boston Globe.. that's calling the kettle black sotaspeak - they don't get paid to write about the stuff happening around here?  

I know of an extremely wealthy Boston family that had a person affected by the 9-11 attacks... immediately the next day they put all over the radio and in the papers that ppl could donate to the infant daughter's fund for college.... she didn't even need to be funded -

NOW - I am NOT - NOT in any way saying the two incidents are REMOTELY the same -  but I guess I worry about Karr's kids a little... what a damn strike - that is the man who is supposed to protect and teach you - and you find out he is nothing but a freak.. a complete and utter freak....

So I guess  I am wondering... why is it ok for some kids and not others based on what their parents did.... the kids can't control the parents...and either way - it's an odd assumption that either set should be given a college education.... I mean like you said Jacq... there are student loans... still paying mine... LOL....


maybe I am having a contrary day.... but I just thought about all of that and wondered...

No, I hear you...and don't get me wrong, I feel for his kids.
I feel for any kid....

I just don't think the whole point of them hiring Garrison and toting their story is soley for the welfare of his children.

I think they want to get their hands on money for themselves as well.

Well I have pre-ordered his last book The Newsbreakers - and in that he talks about Jon Benet... so when I get it, hopefully soon... I will tell you more what I think ...

but you could be right about the family... but I hope they are aware of the law of unintended consequences....

Stranger everyday!

I heard this morning that the family came up with another photo from Christmas -- but still without him in it.

I don't know about you -- but until they come up with a photo of that Christmas with him IN IT -- proving he could not have been in Boulder -- I'm not too interested in their family photo album.

This is just way too strange.

I wish we could hear more about the possible connection with the Boulder man who committed suicide and his 'partner's' get rich quick scheme.

That 'sbtc' in the yearbook really creeps me out :shock:

this entire thing creeps me out.... it's all too much to even follow.. I have to wonder about the photographs too... why can't they find any? The DNA is the one thing I really count on... I think Dr. Baden and Dr. Lee said that there is still a possibility of the DNA being able to answer some questions...

and I think the college professor - Tracey is egging Karr on... he has a book out and seems to be interviewed and making $$ too.....

[/b]

Not surprised to hear that.

Sad. very sad.

Did anyone else hear on the news yesterday that one of his exwives said he had signed SBTC on some letters to her?  I think it was Fox, but not sure.  I only heard it one time and if true, I think that is quite compelling.  But we all know, we do get a lot of misinformation from the MSM.

SBTC Ministry of Small Business, Tourism, and Culture (Canada)
SBTC Saved By the Cross
SBTC Small Business Technology Coalition
SBTC Stream-Based Trace Compression


I did not hear that yet CP...

Only that the yearbook contained it...

This is so bizarre.

John, what about this phraseology? I mean, he uses this "SBTC" in notes through the years, starting in high school and then going on later. It doesn't appear in the ransom note, but this "shall be the conqueror," do you see people — well, it is in the ransom note in the bottom, "SBTC," and it's in the yearbook. Is that a giveaway that the same person wrote it?

HARGETT: I wouldn't necessarily say that's a giveaway, but I have to admit that it's very interesting that the "SBTC" appeared both — "shall be the conqueror" — in the yearbook and the "SBTC" appearing on the note.

That's why I think he was involved.

Even if he was not the actual perpertrator.

Still would like to hear more about the Boulder man who comitted suicide right after the Boulder police reported that they were 'very close' to eliminating all but one suspect from their list (which was not the truth -- just a tactic).

Or is this just a wierd series of coincidences :?:
.

Found this on Fox, it was the mother of his first wife.

Ray's mother, Melissa Shotts, said she recalled seeing the initials S.B.T.C. at the bottom of the letters Karr wrote to her daughter. Those initials also appeared at the bottom of the ransom letter that John and Patsy Ramsey told police in Boulder, Colorado, they found in their house when their daughter disappeared.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209953,00.html

Thanks CP.

This is soooooooooooo creepy.

Did anyone see JonBenet; Anatomy of an investigation with Bill Kurtis on A&E last night?  I saw part of it and fell asleep.  Very good review of how this case got so off course in the beginning and answered some good questions.  I hope its on my dvr so I can see the end of it when I get home.

No, I didn't see that Jennifer34.

If you get to watch the end, please share anything interesting you learned.

thanks :D

I didn't see it last night, but I love Bill Kurits productions...Usually very accurate and thoroughly done!

I agree about Bill Kurtis also.  That is why I thought this was so well done and informative.  Especially for people trying to go back to the beginning or refresh your memory on the case.  I will let you all know what I find out.

I am certain the Boulder must know the DNA results.

Yet they are not releasing them...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Wonder what that means...

I'm thinking if they matched they would be shouting it out  to the rafters...

SUN BURST TALENT CONTEST in Georgia, which JonBenet entered.  There are rumors of child porno/pedophilia ring in Boulder, with high up government officials involved.  One of the photographers of beauty pageants tried to get JonBenet's costume maker to let the costumer's little girl be photographed nude.  That photographer "freaked" after JonBenet's death.  Could the SBTC come back to that pedophilia ring that was tied to the beauty pageants?  A community activist tried to be allowed to testify about the porno ring when the grand jury was meeting on the case.  The judge denied him that opportunity.  Is this underbelly sounding somewhat familiar?  Is the judge assigned to hear JMK's hearing Monday the same judge that ran the grand jury?

Is this the same "suicide" where there was a pillow used to muffle the sound?  The one where the gun is found in an almost impossible angle to have been used by the deceased?  When have you ever heard of a suicidal man worrying about who hears the shot?

What do you all think about Jamie Harmon, the attorney who claims, along with Patience VanZandt, to be representing JMK?

I have personally had communication with someone who had personal experience with Jamie, and if her story of what happened turned out to be true (and I have been told her family has filed a formal complaint with the Ca State Bar), it would look like, in my personal non-professional opinion, to be inadequate legal representation at the very least in that case.


Further, I think I heard on MSM this a.m. that Jamie is pregnant and would be giving birth just a few months after the trial is to start?

And that her firm has hired a 29 year old lawyer with essentially no experience out of Colorado to assist them?  In my personal opinion  this "representation" is getting more and more bizarre by the minute.

And then there is the Boulder Public Defender who claims he has met with Karr within the last 24 hours and that no one outside his office is defending Karr.  (if I heard that MSM clip correctly)

Appeals - I read some where that Jamie Harmon has had three allegations of misrepresentation ... uhmm... insufficent experience... dang the term escapes me now, but you will know... like a Real Estate attorney handling a murder.....

I can't remember where i read this...

Good morning, MRS. RED, and anyone else here this a.m.  I believe the correct term is "ineffective assistance of counsel" IIRC.  Nice term for "don't know what the he__ they are doing."  :(

Appeals, I believe I heard today that it was the same judge.

Appeals --

I am trying to find where I read the story. I had not heard it before. I thought it was on this thread -- but it's not.

I will look and post it when I find it :oops:

Yes Appeals -- that's the one. THis is not the exact article I read, but it is similar. I had never heard of this guy before :shock:


http://tinyurl.com/el8ww

The Shocking JonBenet Doc: What You Haven't Heard

August 18, 2006

With the bombshell news of the first-ever arrest in the almost 10-year-old JONBENET RAMSEY murder case exploding across headlines this week, ET has details from a TV documentary that uncovers compelling new evidence!

From personal home movies from the Ramseys to the chilling autopsy photos, the 2004 British documentary, "Who Killed the Pageant Queen? The Prime Suspect," raises key questions and suggests that a prime suspect other than JOHN MARK KARR -- who surfaced this week in Thailand, confessing his involvement in the "accidental" killing of the six-year-old beauty queen -- may still be out there.

The morning after Christmas, 1996, JOHN and the late PATSY RAMSEY claimed they saw their daughter's bedroom was empty and discovered a ransom note lying on the stairs, asking for $118,000. They called police, and JonBenet's victimized body was discovered in a small room in the basement.

The parents were considered by the Boulder Police Department to be prime suspects from the beginning, and in the sensationalized court of public opinion, the Ramseys were tried and convicted by many, even though no charges were ever made against the parents.

Now, "Who Killed the Pageant Queen?" raises evidence gathered by private detectives and other experts that two intruders may have been responsible for the murder.

Boulder salvage yard employee MICHAEL HELGOTH reportedly committed suicide just hours after the Boulder's D.A. announced that there was not enough evidence to charge the Ramseys, but the list of suspects was narrowing. According to the documentary, JOHN KENNEDY, a co-worker going through Helgoth's leftover belongings, claims he remembered Helgoth mentioning right before Christmas '96 that he and a partner were expecting to make $60,000 each -- conspicuously almost equaling the $118,000 of the ransom note -- and then seemed very depressed when he did not get the money. The ransom was never paid by the Ramseys.

Although police reported that there was no evidence of forced entry into the Ramsey house, two different footprints were reportedly found after the killing. According to "Pageant Queen," one of them matched the same Hi-Tec bootprint as Helgoth's. Furthermore, a stun gun had been used to subdue JonBenet, and the filmmakers say a stun gun was found among Helgoth's belongings, albeit a different type.

Evidence collected reveals that Helgoth collected Barbie dolls and was reportedly obsessed with young girls. He also had reportedly mentioned at one point to Kennedy that he wanted to crack a human skull at one point, and Kennedy felt compelled to contact the Boulder police, who he says did not pursue the lead after upwards of 20 attempts to contact them.

In the documentary, Helgoth's suicide raises more questions than answers. The fatal shot from the right-handed salvage yard employee was fired through a pillow through his left side in the suicide, but why would a suicidal man try to muffle a shot? And why wouldn't he shoot himself in the head? The shot itself is also almost impossible, requiring a right-handed man to twist the gun around for a nearly impossible trajectory, according to experts. Was it murder?

"Pageant Queen" posits that mystery DNA samples found in JonBenet's underwear do not match Helgoth's samples to point him out as the killer, but some private investigators believe he was involved in the crime that night, perhaps in providing the killer with the rope, duct tape, cord and stun gun used in the crime. Was he an accomplice?

The filmmakers also say they believe they have a prime suspect -- an associate of Helgoth's -- but choose to not name him as he has not been charged in the case. The man in question is a convicted pedophile, imprisoned for sexual assault on a child. He also reportedly stalked neighbors in a black ninja outfit; and may have even worked for the Ramseys in their home. In addition, he raised dogs whose hair color exactly match strands found at the Ramsey crime scene. Could this be JonBenet's killer?

"Who Killed the Pageant Queen?" goes to great lengths to characterize the lack of diligence in the Boulder Police Department's efforts in pursuing any suspects other than John and Patsy Ramsey in the case, adding that no neighbors were questioned, and two pedophiles were known to have lived in the neighborhood.

There was also a series of intrusions and assaults in the neighboring areas where a suspect appeared in someone's bedroom in the middle of the night -- one in which a young girl was sexually assaulted -- in a case remarkably similar to the JonBenet case, but Boulder Police again reportedly dismissed any relevance, say the filmmakers.

In a police interrogation tape from June 23, 1998, Patsy Ramsey, who died this summer of ovarian cancer, tells her interrogator, "Go back to the damn drawing board. I didn't do it! John Ramsey didn't do it, and we didn't have a clue of anybody who did do it. My life has been hell from that day forward and I want nothing more than to find out who's responsible for this ... This child was the most precious thing in my life, and I can't stand the thought, thinking that there's somebody out here walking on the street -- God knows if my daughter can, then some other child -- quit screwing around asking me about things that are ridiculous and let's find the person that did this!"

In the days after the case, Patsy Ramsey spoke out in an on-camera interview, saying, "I don't know whether this person or persons is still in Boulder, you know? They may by this time be in Timbuktu, who knows? But we can find them. If a proper investigation is conducted, I think it'll happen."

This is the one I read Appeals. It is from CBS -- 48 Hours Mystery

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

It is really long, so I didn't want to post, but it had a lot of info I was not aware of.

2 sets of different foot prints outside the window.

A lot about this guy Michael Helgoth and his 'm.o.'.

A girl who was in the same dance class as jbr was sexually assaulted 9 months after jbr's death. By someone who was probably in the house already when the daughter and mom came home from the movies. Knew the girls name.

Apparently, 'breaking in' was a hobby of Helgoth.

SHARON:  Yes, Helgoth was the one I was thinking about.  Got to run out right now, but will try to get back later to read the long article.  Thanks for digging those up.  Quite fascinating stuff.

Man Resembling Karr Seen at Boulder Bus Stop in 1996, Report Says
 
DENVER (AP) -- There's a report Saturday that someone resembling the suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey killing was seen in Boulder, Colorado, on the day her body was found.

The Rocky Mountain News said a witness reports seeing someone who looked like John Karr in a Boulder bus station in the early morning hours of December 26th, 1996.

The paper said Daniel Pride, who now lives in New Hampshire, noticed a man wearing a fleece vest with a "shiny red spot" that appeared to be a stain.

Pride said the man seemed like he didn't want to be noticed and pulled away when Pride asked if he had a light. He said they both boarded the bus, and the man got off on a highway outside of
Boulder.

Karr's whereabouts at the time of JonBenet's slaying are unclear. Family members said he spent that Christmas with them in the South.

Copyright 2006  The Associated Press . All Rights Reserved.

 Created: 8/26/2006 12:09:02 PM Updated: 8/26/2006 12:09:02 PM

John Mark Karr items already showing up on online auctions

Kirk Mitchell / The Denver Post


A John Mark Karr doll with leather pants.

A red car "pimped out" with Karr's mug.

And a 129-page journal written by Wendy Wonda Pearl Hutchens about infamous friends including Karr, the suspect in JonBenét Ramsey's 1996 killing.

These are among a growing list of items recently sold or now on sale on eBay.

"This is just the beginning of the merchandizing and marketing of John Mark Karr," said Andy Kahan, a watchdog of an industry he calls "murderabilia."

 :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

Absolutely disgusting IMO

I cannot even think of why one would buy that kind of thing...

I can't understand it either....

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/wireStory?id=2364141

JonBenet Slay Suspect Has Court Hearing
JonBenet Ramsey Slaying Suspect, John Mark Karr, Faces First Court Appearance

By JON SARCHE

BOULDER, Colo. Aug 28, 2006 (AP)— John Mark Karr, the schoolteacher suspected in the 1996 slaying of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey, met with two attorneys ahead of his first appearance in a Boulder courtroom.

Deputy public defender Seth Temin and Steve Jacobson, a retired public defender, spent about three hours at the jail Sunday, declining to answer questions as they left.

Karr was expected to be in court Monday for a hearing expected to last only a few minutes, with Karr advised of his rights and any charges against him.

Temin has been aggressive in his short time on the case, winning approval of a gag order and making sure prosecutors and anyone else comes through him to talk with Karr.

Jacobson is considered a DNA specialist, and DNA could be one of the major issues should Karr go to trial. Temin has already challenged any DNA that may have been taken from Karr as illegally obtained.

In a court filing, prosecutors said they have evidence that has not been disclosed despite a decade of public scrutiny of the case.
The best-case scenario for prosecutors would be slam-dunk DNA evidence linking Karr to the Ramsey's former home, where JonBenet's beaten and strangled body was found by her father on Dec. 26, 1996.

Without it, experts say, it's much more difficult to build a strong murder case against the 41-year-old Karr, who has said he was there when the girl died but stopped short of an outright confession.
"In this day and age of shows like 'CSI' jurors not only want forensic evidence before they will convict a person, they demand it," said Robert Hirschhorn, a jury consultant based in Dallas.
Forensics expert Henry Lee and former prosecutor Bob Grant, both involved in the Ramsey investigation, have said some of the DNA collected at the scene was mixed or contaminated.

Investigators have said DNA was found in blood spots on JonBenet's underwear, but a Ramsey family attorney said two years ago it didn't match any of the 1.5 million samples in an FBI database at the time. Other DNA recovered under the girl's fingernails is degraded, Grant said.

Other physical evidence includes a ransom note, the garrote used to strangle the girl, a boot print found outside the Ramsey house and some indications an intruder could have entered through a basement window.

JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, were initial targets of a grand jury investigation that ended with no indictments. Patsy Ramsey died in June after learning authorities had turned their attention to Karr, who was living in Thailand when he was detained earlier this month.

Scott Robinson, a Denver attorney familiar with the case, said prosecutors may end up attacking the police investigation for the alleged contamination of the DNA evidence.
Prosecutors can overcome police mistakes with solid work, said Grant, a former Adams County district attorney who served as an adviser on the case in the 1990s.

"I've never seen a case in trial where the defense didn't find something to attack the investigation about in terms of technical investigative techniques, and I've never seen an investigation that was perfect," Grant said. "If there's DNA able to be matched to him, then the mistakes are of little or no consequence."

Associated Press photographer Paul Sakuma and writer Robert Weller contributed to this report.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

KUSA TV: 2 sources say Karr DNA sample doesn't match Ramsey sample

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14553130/

Thanks Jackie!!  Even though the guy should be locked up for being a digusting human being, I didn't believe him to be involved in this crime...

I was just coming in to post that, Jacq...  I seriously doubted that it would once we started hearing stuff beyond the breaking news that they had a suspect in Thailand who confessed to killing JonBennet...

   From:      BreakingNews@MAIL.CNN.COM
   Subject:    CNN Breaking News
   Date:    August 28, 2006 12:52:04 PM PDT
   To:      TEXTBREAKINGNEWS@CNNIMAIL12.CNN.COM
   Reply-To:      newseditor@MAIL.CNN.COM

-- DNA found on JonBenet Ramsey's body does not match sample DNA from suspect John Mark Karr, Denver, Colorado's KUSA television station reports.

And, hi Strike!

Okies ~ I'm down for a nap before work tonight...  have a good one everyone!

yup...   :D   And hi again!

Front Page Post: SM

DNA not a match … John Mark Karr will not be charged in JonBenet’s Murder … It was a hoax

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/08/28/dna-not-a-match-john-mark-karr-will-not-be-charged-in-jonbenets-murder-it-was-a-hoax/

Colorado prosecutors won’t charge schoolteacher John Mark Karr with the murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey after tests showed his DNA does not match DNA found in her underwear, two local TV stations reported on Monday.

Missing & Exploited Post:

John Mark Karr DNA not a match in JonBenet Ramsey murder … hoax, fake … fraud

http://missingexploited.com/2006/08/28/john-mark-karr-dna-not-a-match-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder-hoax-fake-fraud/

After all this, the DA in Boulder, CO is not going to file charges. What a mighty expensive plane ticket to get John Karr back to Colorado for nothing. Next time the Boulder DA may want to ask the family where a potential suspect may have been before they jump the gun. It is actually amazing that it appears all the DA had was a confession. A confession for and obsessed individual that gets off on murder cases of young girl.

What I don't understand is why they found him more credible than the other yahoo's who have confessed to this?

This guy walks...


The whole world knows what a sick person he is, he does not need to be on the streets...

Crazy.

I had so hoped this was the person who was guilty. Is that wrong of me?

For some reason I am still not convinced he had nothing whatsoever to do with this. I also did not think the DNA was going to match but I did hope there were other things to help the case.

I still want to know if one of his brothers really did work at the Ramsey company at one time.

I hope he will be held in California for the porn charges and hope no one kills him before he has a chance to tell some of his story. JMHO

Sam

I also hoped he might be guilty, or at least that he knew who the killer really was, since he supposedly had "secret" information regarding the condition of JonBenet's body.  He really is a sicko, though, and I can understand why they wanted to arrest him, to prevent him from hurting any of the little girls in his class at his new job teaching second grade.  Apparently he was talking about his attraction to some of his new female students in some of his emails,  and the authorities confirmed he had personal involvement with at least one.  It seems to me someone as deep into the fantasy of killing a little girl as he was would be dangerous to other little girls.  I wish they would have arrested him without making a big announcement about finding JonBenet's killer.

So is anyone watching Nancy Grace regarding this case?  The emails he wrote were so sick... I can't even fathom how he can think that way...

equates little girls with dolls?

Let's not give the Ramseys a pass in this regardless of the outcome.  JonBenet did not deserve what happened to her anymore than she deserved to have parents who marketed her like a piece of cheesecake in a delicatessen.  Any woman that would dress their own little girl up like a 2-bit whore and have her strut and preen on a stage for pedophiles to lust after is not looking out for her child's best interests.  I still think there is some deep and dark and unknown to the public about the Ramseys.

Personally, I do not like the beauty pageant culture some of these little girls are subjected to and think they should be allowed to be kids, but I don’t care for that harsh characterization of the child.  I heard a clown on LKL used the same term last night and I cringed.  This little girl was brutally murdered and her memory deserves something better than that.  JMO

"This case is not closed," said District Attorney Mary Lacy, who planned to further explain her decision at a news conference Tuesday.


Oh goodie goodie...
Hope it's as informative as the last new conference.... :roll:

I personally don't think I would put my daughter in beauty pageants, if I had a daughter, because I don't think I would want her focusing so much on her looks, especially at a young age, but there are an awful lot of people in this country who believe child beauty pageants are good clean American fun, and I don't think it's right to condemn a large segment of our population for participating in them.  People who put their children in beauty pageants should not be considered child abusers solely because of their participation in pageants.  Child actresses are frequently marketed in a sexual manner, for national consumption, but their parents aren't usually accused of the things the Ramseys have  been accused of.  And the Ramseys never intended for those videos of JonBenet at her pageants to be shown on national television, if she had not been murdered, no one would have seen them outside the pageant world.  If you want to suspect the Ramseys of murder, that's fine, they are legitimate suspects, but I don't see the logic in basing your suspicions on the pageants JonBenet was in, one thing really doesn't have anything to do with the other, in my opinion.

I thought JonBennet looked a lote prettier when she wasn't all "dolled up."  What you think, Tyler?

D.A.: Karr really believes he killed JonBenet
POSTED: 1:15 p.m. EDT, August 29, 2006
Adjust font size:
BOULDER, Colorado (CNN) -- John Mark Karr believes he killed JonBenet Ramsey even though "he is not the killer," Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy said Tuesday.

In a news conference in Boulder, Lacy and staff members from the Boulder County district attorney's office addressed how DNA evidence released Monday showed Karr could not have committed the killing he confessed to when he was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, earlier this month.

The district attorney's office is closing its case against Karr.

"John Karr sincerely believes he killed JonBenet Ramsey, there's no question in his mind about that," Lacy said.

She said Karr still believes, even now, that he killed the young girl even though evidence points to someone else.

"The way he told the story (of how JonBenet died), the DNA would have been his and it was not," Lacy said. "He is not the killer."

Lacy said she has little sympathy for Karr because he "inserted himself" into the case.

Lacy said that investigators took surreptitious DNA samples in Bangkok from Karr, who said he was present in JonBenet's Boulder home when she died in December 1996. He called her death an accident.

DNA samples were taken from items that Karr touched as investigators kept him under surveillance in Bangkok, Lacy said, including from his bicycle, a cup he drank from and a tissue with which he wiped his hands.

However, she explained, experts in the case said that the sample found in the young girl's underwear was a mixed sample, as were the samples taken from Karr without his knowledge.

The experts wanted a clean sample from Karr and didn't want to compare a mixed sample with a mixed sample, she told reporters in a news conference about the case.

To get such a sample, they would have needed Karr's permission, and they didn't want to tip him off that he was under investigation, she said.Karr claimed in e-mails to a journalism professor at the University of Colorado that he was involved in JonBenet's death.

Lacy has been sharply criticized from for detaining and arresting Karr.

"The decisions were mine," Lacy said Tuesday. "The responsibility is mine and I should be held accountable for all decisions in this case."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry Garrison To be Interviewed Tonight on Larry King Live … his book The Newsbreakers, JonBenet Ramsey and John Karr

http://tinyurl.com/msr8m

Boulder DA Mary Lacy is facing the media with some tough questions as to how and why they would have thought John Karr was involved in the murder of JonBenet. It appears that prosecutors had nothing to go on except Karr’s bizarre comments, statements and confession.

Later tonight to get the Karr family’s perspective, Larry King will be interviewing Larry Garrison on ”Larry King Live“. They will be discussing Larry Garrison’s up coming book, The Newsbreakers and the John Mark Karr case in which Larry Garrison represents the family as a spokesperson.

Thanks, Red.
It will be interesting to see .

I actually tend to agree with Tyler that the Ramseys spent a lot of time dressing this child up like she was 25.  My best friend has a daughter that y'all see everywhere... she has appeared in Parsian ads, Dilliard's ads, etc, and she is a  beautiful child but my friend really draws the lines.  There is absolutely NO make-up allowed, she must be dressed appropriately for a 4 year old. No shots without full clothing etc.  I just think that she was pushed to far too fast... and I don't know that it was in her best interests.  

and I agree Katz, she was so cute w/o the make up...

LIFE STYLE EXTRA (UK) - The man who claims he killed JonBenét Ramsey wants Johnny Depp to play him in a movie. />
Former teacher John Mark Karr also believes the film about the murder of the Colorado beauty queen would make "a billion dollars".


I doubt this will ever come to pass....

but if it did, this is one Depp movie I would miss..... :roll:

Yes, I would pass on that as well...

BTW, did anyone watch Larry King Live?

NO book deal, NO movie deal... media majorly misquoting....

I missed it.
Was watching the Met Game.

No reason for a book or movie deal now.

His 15 minutes is coming to an end.

Hopefully this idiot will not see one penny from all of this.  He should have to pay restitution for the expenses he cost the tax payers of Co.

On another note, hopefully he can be labled and marked as the sick freak that he is and be kept away from children.

I feel sorry for his own kids.  What if that was your dad?  Like they aren't catching some crap at school.

Boy I SO agree with you.
Innocent victims.

Larry Garrison did a great job of explaining that he was not contacted by the family to write a book or do a movie deal..... they just wanted ppl to know that Karr did not kill JBR...

I think they know he's quite ill....

I agree Jenn34... I feel so incredibly said for those kids...

She was a beautiful child, a little angel, who was never allowed to live the life of a child.  

She was made to look cheap and degraded by her parents, the ones who were supposed to care for her, protect her.  This child did not deserve what those two put her through.  Whether or not they are directly related to her murder, as I suspect they are, they are the ones who paraded her around all over the country for pedophiles to see.  

If these parents that put these children out there like beefcakes did not intend them to be seen, they would not dress them up like this, school them and parade them all over the country, living vicariously through them.  

The vidoes were purely for entertainment of them and their friends.  Please.

Tylergal,
You know I have the utmost respect for you and most of the time I am pretty much in agreement with your thoughts. I think this is one of those times I have to disagree.

Like it or not, as females we are taught right from the beginning how to pretend being grown up. With our baby dolls and sneaking into Moms lipstick and smearing it on our faces and trying out her high heel shoes.

I know I am a few years older than you but as a small child I took tap dancing and gymnastics and baton.  I wanted to take ballet and not tap but there were not enough kids interested to make a class. We did little programs to show off our progress. Like I said I wanted to take ballet but those cute little tutus can also be very grown up.  Let me also say that in baton the marches could also be called strutting our stuff as well as the costumes. Gymnastics was to prepare you for later being a cheerleader. Also cute little sexy type costumes. Most of us were cheerleaders at 11 years old.

Did I feel exploited? No! I was doing what I wanted to do. I feel Jon Bonet also enjoyed doing the pageant thing plus it was something she could share with her Mom. Some parents it is all about sports for both girls and boys. Are they wrong too? No! It is called different strokes for different folks.

 Why should any of us have to worry about pedophiles? They are the ones who need taken off the street. All of our children are at risk from them. Not just the beauty pagent kids. JMHO

Sam

I can see both sides to this argument.

I was involved with all kinds of dance since I was 4 years old...starting with ballet, then tap , jazz, tahitian you name it..

The happiest years of my life...

Sparkly costumes and make up during the recitals....

I never felt exploited either.

But I have seen some of Behind the Scene documentaries with this pageant stuff and alot of it is quite disturbing....

Perhaps not jonbenet's mother, but alot of these mother's are pushing these children way hard, and some of them to me, do look far too mature for their age.   Highlighting a 5 year old's hair and the coaching and the sexy costumes are a bit much for me....

But Sam, I agree.....these sexual predators will target kids on a playground...or boy scouts, etc....as well as they would a beauty pageant.

I don't think the Ramsey's murdered their child or were involved.  I used to, but I changed my mind over the years.

Just my 2 cents.... :lol:

FROM PEOPLE MAG:

As for Karr....just the latest of a number of people to confess to killing JonBent - he will be sent to California to face charges stemming from his
2001 arrest for possessing child porn; he could spend several months in jail on those charges....

 :roll:

Months... how disgusting....

it's so sad that children aren't voters, then they would be protected...

I know.

You get a kid from God knows where with an ounce of Pot or a roach clip and they do more time...

I don't see the justice in that...

THis guy is obviously more dangerous to society than the average bear.

Frightening.

California prosecutors have offered a plea bargain to one-time JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Karr. The deal would reduce the number of child porn possession charges against him and free him with no additional jail time.
 
   


Prosecutors say they'll waive 3 of the 5 charges in return for a guilty plea on the other two. Karr would be required to register as a sex offender, obligating him to report his whereabouts to local police wherever he lives.

He'd also be put on 3 years probation. The offer was made in open court after a judge set Karr's bail at $200,000, calling him a flight risk.
Karr's attorney says he'll discuss the offer with his client, but insists Karr is innocent. Karr's trial is set for October 2nd.


(Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All Rights

Heard on a radio newscast today that the evidence against Karr (his computer) has been misplaced!

I wonder if this is why they are offering the plea deal.

Yep, that's pretty much what the legal types on FOX were figuring.

Even with evidence, the guy really wasn't on the hook for much.

Perhaps he just needed a first class ticket back to the states from T.land

you aren't the first person I have heard say that!!

Dunno, with all the guys world travels, I would suspicion the family must have some money and that they were supporting the 'Black Sheep' in keeping him out of the country.

I don't think so Car... from what I understood, they wanted nothing to do with him... :?:

I don’t remember too many of my buddies driving around in a De Lorean when I was a yoot.  Of course, I wasn’t a yoot when that one made a splish, splash.

Looks like Carr walks free as bird.

Yep, we just don't have enough pervs here in California  :roll:

John Mark Karr A Free Man … Judge Dismisses Child Porn Charges

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/10/05/john-mark-karr-a-free-man-judge-dismisses-child-porn-charges/

I had a feeling they were going to put this perv out on the streets.... WTF is wrong with out system where kids are not in any way protecting...

Well, now, the 'Law' can't really handle everything.

On some things in life it's up to the parents to protect their kids or see that they are protected. I think there's a lot of bad stuff happening just because of the lack of parental responsiblity and in some cases the teaching of personal responsiblity.

I think a lot of folks are blaming the internet for things that easily could be handled by some parental guidence or observation.

Also when in a situation like pervs in schools, I'm kinda on the vigilante side.

Again I am joined with Carnut in the opionion that:

"On some things in life it's up to the parents to protect their kids or see that they are protected. I think there's a lot of bad stuff happening just because of the lack of parental responsiblity and in some cases the teaching of personal responsiblity.

I think a lot of folks are blaming the internet for things that easily could be handled by some parental guidence or observation."

was the can that the pineapple came from
EVER FOUND ???


where is the can ?


i think the parents killed her

they wrote the NOTE

Robots ~ was it said she ate pineapple that evening at the Christmas party they attended?  I can't remember...... and, would have already been broken down by digestive juices.....

Have you read Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller, and/or JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas?

What do you think about her brother, Burke.....I know he was only about 9 at the time, but I've always questioned his involvement however minimal and not deliberate.

There was no pineapple served at the Christmas party. Jon Benet had to have eaten it later, at home. Her parents have always said that she went straight to bed without eating, so the pineapple has always been a mystery.But the killer could have given it to her, or she could have gotten it herself after her parents were in bed, although I doubt it.

I think the DNA in Jon Benet's underwear proves that it was not her parents. That DNA has not been connected to anyone in the Ramsey's immediate circle, so it had to have come from a stranger. Plus there is the manner of death. A garote is very unusual, and can be connected to a type of sexual activity, so I think someone was waiting in their house, and was hiding out looking for an opportunity to molest her. I think the killing may have been an outcome of that. The note was never conclusively connected to Patsy Ramsey, it's just that they could not rule her out either.John was ruled out as the author of the note.
I have always thought it was someone who was watching the family for a while. Like that guy did with the Groene family.

>There was no pineapple served at the Christmas party.
No one knows about pineapple.
Fleet White was not asked about it for quite some time and could only later say that he did not recall if the ham was accompanied by pineapple or not.
It appears that Pricilla White was never on record on the pineapple issue at all.

>Jon Benet had to have eaten it later, at home.
No, she could have eaten it before, at home. "Transit times" for such food items are highly variable and pediatric transit times are purely extrapolations from the adult tables. 

>I think the DNA in Jon Benet's underwear proves that it was not her parents.
No its not proof, but it sure is strong evidence.

>The note was never conclusively connected to Patsy Ramsey,
the note was never connected to Patsy Ramsey in any way at all.

> Like that guy did with the Groene family.
Surveillance is quite likely but not proven.

well, i dont think the brother was involved unless perhaps he was involved and then it was covered up by the parents... yes, thats possible

but someone wrote the note and the note is quite interesting

i still say the parents were involved in the killing and the cover up

in my opinion

there was a bowl that contained pineapple, i think

where is the can that the pinapple came in...?

DNA came from the panties where they were made... i think

That was an early theory regarding the DNA, it was never proven.  In fact, I believe I read they determined the DNA came from a caucasion male, but I'm not positive. The DNA has been entered into the FBI Codis DNA index, hopefully someday there will be a match.

Also, you need to remember that the Boulder police used the DNA to eliminate other suspects (other than the Ramseys).  If they really thought it came from the factory, they wouldn't have used it to eliminate other suspects.

When you look at the forensic evidence regarding her injuries, it seems almost imossible to me that Burke could have been involved in any way.  The cord she was strangled with was dug deep into her neck, so deep that part of the cord wasn't visible.  It would have taken quite a bit of force to pull the cord that tight. She had marks on  her neck made by her fingernails, indicating she struggled against the cord.  She had a massive head wound delivered when she was near death.  It doesn't sound like something a 9 year old would be capable of. After her death, Burke was questioned by authorities (either police or child services, can't remember) without his parents being present.  If he had been involved, and they wanted to cover it up, he would never have been let out of their sight, imo. 

There was a bowl of pineapple found sitting on the Ramsey's breakfast table that morning, but no one remembered getting it out.  Jon Benet could have gotten it out herself before they went to the Christmas party at the White's.  I believe it was fresh pineapple. I've never thought it was significant.  From what I've read, it's really impossible to tell when she ate it.  Partially digested pineapple was found in her intestine, not her stomach.

Oops, I need to correct that.  The DNA was male, they don't know the race.  There was a pubic hair found on the blanket covering her body, the hair was determined to have come from a caucasion. 

I need to digest all your opinions...so to speak.  Bottom line, I believe the parents were involved.  I believe Patsy Ramsey wrote the letter/note.  I believe John Ramsey purposefully brought the body of JonBenet upstairs....

I need to get the rest of my thoughts together.  This case has fascinated me from the beginning.....not to take away from the tragic circumstances. 

If any of you all have heard/read about the Walker Railey case, I have the same feelings about that one.....although that case did go to trial (if you can call it that). :shock:

tcumom, I respect your opinion, but I find that often, people who believe Jon Benet was killed by a family member are not that familiar with the actual evidence in the case.  I'm not saying that is the case with you, I'm just saying I've run into that situation before.  You may not know that Steve Thomas, the Boulder detective assigned to the case, admitted in a deposition that the Boulder police leaked "information" to the media to try to make the parents look guilty, hoping to pressure the parents into confessing.  Much of the information that was released was not necessarily accurate, such as the "no footprints in the snow" statement made by the police.  The police neglected to mention that the fact that there were no footprints in the snow around the house was meaningless, since it did not snow that night, and pictures taken of the yard and house that morning show no snow on the walkways leading up to the house, or on many parts of the yard.  There was no snow around the unlocked basement window which Lou Smit, a private investigator hired by the DA's office to investigate the case, theorizes was the entry point for an intruder.  There are many more examples of the misinformation spread by the Boulder police in this case. If you look at all the evidence, you may change your  mind.  Or not, you may be very familiar with the facts, and many people do feel as you do.

Anyway, personally, I've never thought the parents, or anyone in family, was involved, but that's just my opinon, and I could be wrong.

me too


i think the pineapple was significant

where is the can ??

if it was fresh, where was the core ??

6 year old cutting a pineapple.........???????????//  nawwwwwww

IIRC, the pineapple was in the refrigerator originally, I don't think anyone denied that the family had a bowl of pineapple in the fridge, just no one knew who took it out and put it on the table, and no one saw Jon Benet eat it.  The issue was when she ate it.  The police tried to say that she had to eat it right before she died, and therefore the parents must have killed her, because an intruder would not have fed her pineapple.  However, I don't think it makes any sense to say the parents fed her pineapple and then killed her. 

Also, the Ramseys said Jon Benet was asleep when they got  home from the White's Christmas party, and they carried her straight up to bed. The police theory was also that if she ate pineapple after she got home, the parents were lying about her being asleep, and must be lying about everything.  However, the experts said she could have eaten the pineapple several hours before she died, I believe one expert even said up to 24 hours before she died, and there was no way to narrow it down.  Also, the Whites could not remember if they served pineapple at their Christmas party.  And, I couldn't see any reason for the parents to lie about it, even if they were guilty.   So that is why I don't think the pineapple was significant.  JMO.

the thing is,

the pineapple was there and no one in the house admits to who may have eaten it
and yet pineapple was found in her stomach, so therefore one might have to conclude
that the bowl of pineapple that was in their house was eaten by jonbenet.

pretty simple. deduction
if you ask me

ok, lets move on

6 years old, and she gets up out of bed, gets a bowl, puts some pineapple in it,
eats its and is caught by an "INTRUDER" or maybe a parent that had told her to go to bed
and not eat anything because you might pee your pants in the middle of the night

UH OH........... parent explodes...


NEXT

this damn intruder sits in the living room and practices the ransom note
but also doe not leave any evidece behind, he uses the ramsey notepad and pen to write the
note, uses the rope from the house and the paint brush to fashion his death weapons

not a very prepared intruder, if you ask me


 

Not prepared ~ but yet, at ease enough to sit down and write out a 2-page ransom note ~ wasn't it for 180,000.00?

I need to get my books out and jog my memory.....

I think Patsy just finally snapped that night .... when JonBenet wet the bed yet again.

Maybe that's too simple, but I do believe it just *happened* ~ not premeditated.

And, then......they're trapped.....and had to come up with the note, the body hidden in that small back room in the basement....

I just can't see the intruder theory, although I know many folks do.  :-?

i cant see an intruder theory at all

if the INTRUDER wanted to,,, why not just take the girl out of the house and get the thing rolling from his HIDEOUT and try and get the money


i mean, he climbed in, found paper and pen, found rope, walked all over the house and yet could not find the front door to walk out


naw................  parents are involved

in my opinion

you dont write a note and then leave the body

the problem was......... the note was written and the sun was coming up and there was no where to go...

why the note..???


crazy people do crazy things

Now I'm rereading my Lawrence Schiller book and the Steve Thomas book.

I just don't believe the intruder theory ~ how did the person get inside?  Simple question ... is there an easy answer?

Just all these questions I'm thinking about?  Why would John Ramsey leave the house after his discovery of her body?  That is incredible to me.

I just don't believe the intruder theory ~ how did the person get inside?
I don't know but several doors and windows were unlocked and there were 26 keys that had been given out to contractors and one key hidden near the front door.
The basement window grate had been lifted and replaced down on top of fresh green vegetation with some indictions of debris having been brought from the ledge to the interior of the basement as if by someone scooting into the home through the building.

>Why would John Ramsey leave the house after his discovery of her body?
Well, the police told him to. That might be the reason he did it.

I don't think so.....I need to read back tonight.....*if* I remember correctly, he slipped out for an hour or so, and it wasn't noticed 'til someone was asking for him.  :shock:
I could easily be wrong....I'm just trying to recall.

I remember all the keys given out.  Good grief!
There was also big discussion about the spider web(s) which had not been disturbed.  Talking about the basement window.

the intruder could not find the front door to get jonbenet out of the house

 :roll:

he was walking all around the house, writing notes, making things to choke people
moving bodies, and could not find a way to gt the girl out of the house

and must have have brought gloves but did not bring his own pen, paper, rope


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

So, do you think Patsy killed her, and John helped or did the entire placement of her body....told Patsy what to write, etc.?

Or, did Patsy take care of everything, with John not finding out 'til morning?

Robots ~ how do you think it happened?

it was a situation where patsy freaked out about the bed wetting

she didnt mean to kill her,,, but she died



patsy did everything, wrote the letter, put out all the fake stuff like the rope around the neck, put her in the basement, etc etc etc


john knew it, he helped patsy cover it up by supporting her...

why he did that..........because i think even he knew it was an accident

Agree with all of the above ~ guess Patsy took it to her grave, and obviously John will never say a word . . .

Earlier, when I mentioned Burke, my brother (clinical psychologist) lived in Boulder at the time; he and some of his cohorts felt that Burke might have done *something* to JonBenet, due to jealously blah blah blah.

And, of course, then Patsy had to take care of the mess. 

i could easily go along with that... it makes sense

he banged her head.....

and the cover up went on from that point

Concerning this "left the house and then returned an hour later":

Didn't happen. Never left. Not for an hour. Not for a minute. Its pure internet fantasy.

I don't think that's it. There's no explanantion for the sexual abuse or the DNA. Or the shoe print, or the scuff mark on the wall.
If Patsy had been upset about the bed wetting, someone would have known that it bothered her.....the pediatrician, Patsy's friends,.....someone. Why hit a kid with a heavy flashlight, anyway? That makes no sense either. JB was not abused ever before, so why would Patsy just hit her hard enough to kill her with the flashlight all of a sudden one night?
And if Burke hurt JB...why a cover-up? He would never have gone to jail. By all accounts, he's a nice, normal kid considering what he's been through. I can't see him hitting his sister in the head with a flashlight either.

What? I'm not sure I follow you?????

Fools is talking about my comment: Why would John Ramsey leave the house after his discovery of her body?  That is incredible to me.

I read that in either the Schiller or Thomas book ~ I will try to find it after I fix supper.
Neither of these books have an index which just drives me whacko.  :shock:

You know, I'm not saying everything written is correct/true......I was just talking about what I remember reading.

But see, how do you *know* this?  Please don't let me offend you......I really want to know how you know he never left?

This "left the house and returned" may have started when a police officer saw John Ramsey looking at the mail and assumed he had left the house to get the mail but the house has no mailbox and JR simply picked the mail up from inside the house where it falls after the mailman puts it through the slot.

Independent Confirmation of the Handwriting Analysis


Michelle Dresbold - Handwriting Analysis Expert Trained by the U. S. Secret Service:

“The chances that Patsy Ramsey did not write the ransom note are about 2 percent.”

Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner:

“Based on the presently available documents, there are strong indications that Patsy Ramsey is the author of the ransom note.”

David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner:

“There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer (51), the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.”

Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:

“Based upon available exemplars compared to the purported "ransom" note in the JonBenét Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey.”

Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

Chet Ubowski wrote, "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.'' He is said to have found 24 of 26 letters in the ransom note which matched exemplars from Patsy Ramsey.

Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:

“I have made careful examination and comparison of the ‘ransom’ note and the exemplars of Patsy Ramsey. I have reached the conclusion that the handwritings and ‘ransom’ note were very probably written by the same person…it is my professional opinion that Patsy Ramsey very likely wrote the ‘ransom’ note.”

Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner:

“It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note.”





 :smt033 :smt033

patsy wrote the note


Robots- independent bull crap detector expert

 :smt033

 :cool:

Kidnappers do not leave 3 page ransom notes

Patsy was wearing the same clothes from the night before.


 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Robots ~ Totally agree with the handwriting findings, and yes I remember she had on the same clothes ~ mentioned that she put her make-up on at 4:30 that morning.  Get real.

And yes, what kind of person is going to sit around writing a rambling, somewhat incoherent ransom note of 3 pages.

For me, it was suspicious from day 1. 

Do you remember how the parents distanced themselves from each other ~ when the police were there?  Always thought that was odd, too.

yep, i remember that about the parents

if patsy did it, and john helped in the cover up....

WHY did he help in the cover up  ????

blackmail ???? 

>Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:
Disbarred attorney isn't it? He went to a midnight meeting at which a cash bribe of thirty grand was offered. Honest type guy, eh?

>Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:
She SELLS pens at a stationery store. You know, a retail sales clerk.
She is a member of a document examiner association but ANYONE who pays dues to it can become a member! If you are willing to pay the dues, why don't YOU join it. It won't make you know anything about examining documents but you can put it on your business cards.

So what? A female TV news commentator admitted on the air that she had done the same thing. Do you think she was confessing to being a murderer?

when you put everything together.....

it sure looks like parents are involved

they changed their "stories" several times also..kind of like joran  :cool:

No. Their statements have been generally quite consistent. It was thanks to the BPD that so much time went by before they were asked some questions but their statements have not varied substantially.

The BPD messed up the investigation, and the crime scene from the moment they arrived. Lou Schmidt is a seasoned dectective ( I think that's his name), and he has said that what physical evidence remained was consistent with an intruder. He had no agenda going in, and was an objective investigator. It's his educated opinion that the parents are innocent. I think I tend to agree with him, based on what I've read, which is about everything ever written on the case.
You just can't get around the DNA.....

And as for Patsy...I've gotten up before, and put the same clothes on when it's cold outside. And maybe she wore her make-up to bed because she was too tired to wash her face. I'm sure she had planned to shower and change, but then the unthinkable happened.I don't remember ever knowing what Patsy's explanation was, if they ever asked her to explain why she had those clothes on, or even if they asked John. But I do know that people wonder about it.I just don't think, if you had murdered your child, you'd keep the same clothes on that you wore during the murder.

Are you talking about the DNA in her underpants?  I just think that was a random example of how one can pick up someone's DNA ..... she could have used the bathroom somewhere and taken her underpants off . . . sounds strange, but I do know some kids do that.....

Remember, John said Patsy had gotten up, put on her makeup and dressed . . . what I do think is odd, is that they were flying to their home in Michigan that morning . . . I just can't picture someone as concerned with personal appearance as she appeared to be, to put on the same outfit as the day before, especially if they were planning to be traveling....

Just throwing these thoughts out there.....

BINGO  :cool:

But where? She was at home, then went to a party. They tested the DNA for people she came in contact with, and no match was found. It's not that easy to get DNA inside a child's panties.
It just makes no sense for Patsy to have killed JB. She was not a child abuser, so why would she pick up a flashlight and bash her child's head in over bedwetting? And then garote her? By all accounts, Patsy loved JB and Burke, and took good care of her children. No Mother could leave her little girl lying in a basement in that condition if there was love for that child. And John had already lost a daughter, and suffered tremendous grief over that, so I can't see him as the killer either.

But, if she used the bathroom and her underwear came in contact with the floor, or she touched someone and then transferred it to her underwear.....I can see this happening, especially with a young child.

I just think Patsy was physically tired, and also tired of JonBenet's bedwetting.  Understandable.  Perhaps JonBenet woke her Mom up with wet clothes and/or sheets.  Patsy may have *hauled off* and hit her, harder than she realized and then the rest of the story.

I've never heard that it was conclusively decided that she was hit with the flashlight.  Is that definite?  Where did you read that?  Just interested ~ hope you know I'm not being a jerk....

I know Patsy loved her children......but, we all know that some parents act out in rage, and the result is life changing.  I think John helped Patsy in order to preserve and save their family.

At school, we see kids who bear the brunt of a parent's wrath.  Too sad and tragic.

Well, what do you think of all those zillions of other cases wherein a woman is found raped and dna tests are performed: did those women never pick up someone's dna? Did those women never take their underpants off?

JonBenet was strangled by garotte, it was not some sudden accident, it was a clearly intentional act with a ligature that was ideally suited for its intended purpose.

The wound to JB's head matched the contours of the flashlight found on the counter in the kitchen. I'm not sure if it was conclusive, because the BPD did not contain the traffic through the house. So much evidence was lost because the crime scene was not protected, and it can never be fully reconstructed. But it's a pretty good conclusion, because there was no other reason for the flashlight to be there, other than to bash her head in with it, as awful as that sounds. Patsy could not have fractured a 6 year old's skull by just hitting her. She would have had to go and get the flashlight, and then hit her, and then garrote her.....it just doesn't make sense. And why would she feed her pineapple, then hit her with a flashlight hard enough to fracture her skull? And why use a stun gun? If you look at the marks a stun gun makes, then look at the marks on JB, they match perfectly. I've seen stun gun marks on other people, and they do look like the marks on JB's body. There's just too much that makes no sense. If Patsy lost her temper, she would have backhanded her, or something else, in the heat of the moment. JB's death was not quick...it was slow and torturous, and sexually motivated. It was meant as a humiliation. I think it was done by someone who either knew them through the pagents, or through their business contacts, and this person clearly had hate for the Ramseys. Whoever did it was evil. Patsy may have had her faults, but no one ever thought of her as evil, and she was, in fact, sincere in her Christian beliefs.

The flashlight may or may not have been brought in by the intruder but it was not used to strike the massive blow.
The Ramseys did not own any stun guns, ever!
Patsy has never been described as violent upon losing her temper and had never struck a child at all.

stun gun ????????????????????

yea yea yea.. i know there was talk of it

show me one bit of evidence that a stun gun was used

something that looks like a stun gun wound could have been caused by 50 other items

no evidence of a stun gun was ever presented

by saying a stun gun was used is like saying a batter hooked up to jumper cables MIGHT have been used





the stun gun theory was a red herring stun gun theory

nothing more, nothing less


 :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

so, the intruder brought a stun gun in the house but did not bring tape, rope
paint stick, or a ramsom note pad or a magic marker pen

it aint washing with me


 :cool:

You know, I just don't see it as a long, tortuous death.

I picture an *accident* with a panicky cover-up; but also, a carefully staged scene (even with the panic)......carefully laid out on a blanket with the blanket folded papoose-like around her. 

Don't know what to think about the stun gun.....I do think Patsy had a temper, though.

No viable evidence of an intruder. Provable evidence that anyone was in that house that night besides the Ramseys


there aint nothing other than "there could have been someone"

that dont cut it


the moon could be made of chocolate custard


 :cool:

It's interesting that the pen the *intruder* used was returned to the container with all the other pens.  :shock:

Somehow, I can't picture an intruder sitting down, with a legal pad and a felt-tip pen, taking the time to compose a bizarre 3 page letter. 

me either, tcumom

me either

the practice notes that were also found...............my goodness

Fools ~ I was just looking at my book which has the police transcipts....

Patsy acknowledges that the flashlight is theirs.....kept in a drawer near a spiral staircase.  Not a typical place.  Just throwing that out in conversation.

That *intruder* sure wasn't prepared.

Patsy said she "thinks" 2 people did it. How could she say that if she wasn't there and didn't hear or see anything?

why not 5 people ?

or 3 people ?

or 1  person ?

or 10 ?

or 40 people ?

Jonbenet was found in the basement and only a person who is really familiar with the home would be able to find the basement. A maid who used to clean their house said she didn't even know about the basement.

 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

so, this intruder with borrowed flashlight in the middle of the night knows the ins and outs like the back of his hand ....


nawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww................

You know, I think John Ramsey felt he could do nothing else other than help with the cover-up. 

He'd been through the breakup of one family.......remember he'd had an affair.
Then, he loses his daughter in an auto accident.
Marries again, and Patsy is diagnosed with ovarian cancer.

Perhaps with that baggage (hate that term).....he felt that was all he could do.
Protect what he still had.

did the intruder break in the house days or weeks earlier ???

JonBenet's autopsy report stated there were chronic injuries to her vagina which Dr. Wecht stated that they appeared to have been inflicted about 72 hours earlier.

Who ever did that is very likely the one who murdered her. An intruder theory would not fit with this likelihood existing, unless he broke in 3 days earlier or had been doing this for months on a regular basis.

houston we have a major problem

uh oh.....................

i agree, you nailed it

Remember, their friend, Fleet White went down to the basement first......couldn't even find a light switch for that room......it was pitch black.  Later, he and John go down there.....John opens the door, with no light on....and finds JonBenet.  very interesting.

also, Fleet White and his wife were adamant that John and Patsy talk with the police, NOT lawyer up, blah blah......shortly after that, the friendship dissolved......

yep

yes yes yes

Okay ~ Mister Robots ~ I've had a great time discussing this ~ sometime this weekend or whenever, let's discuss Chandra Levy ~

Now that's a case that I would be interested to hear your take. . . .

FoolsGold ~ PDH3 ~ y'all need to cruise over there, too!

flashlight was found on the Ramsey counter but there were NO fingerprints on it


hmmmm... so the intruder was also a good house cleaner ???


naw.............................

something stinks

ok, im with ya... i m not totally up to speed so please bear with me

you can help me...i know what i think but i need to research more


all i know is CONDIT is up to to his neck in this  :cool:

Well, we agree on that ~ up to his scrawny neck ~ I'm not up to speed on it, either.  Used to have that info almost memorized ......
One thing to think on is that his wife was in town the week Chandra disappeared.  That is a little too coincidental for me....

me too

I'm digging around for this book I had a few years ago on Chandra Levy ~ did you check out that link someone posted, about how it was a conspiracy ..... gosh, I'm hunting for the link.  Thought I put it in my favorites.  Maybe it's in the Chandra thread.  I'll go look.

Hey, Robots!  ~  Appeals posted this link over in the Chandra thread ~ I scanned it a few weeks ago, and then life got in the way.....I need to print it out and read it all in one fell swoop.

Your assignment is to check this out  :wink::

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:aKgUTlLAQh4J:www.geocities.com/northstarzone

PDH3 and FoolsGold and anyone else join in, too, if you'd like. . . . :D

Nope! No such injuries and no such report.
Also Wecht saw nothing but the autopsy report that everyone else saw and the photos in the tabloids that everyone else saw, so how did he come up with 'about 72 hours earlier' from that? With the help of tea leaves perhaps?

Under the report on the "vaginal mucosa," referring to the internal membranes of the vagina, Meyer had written, "All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

Greek to the layman. Crystal clear to Cyril Wecht.

That paragraph meant JonBenet had suffered a penetration of her vagina that had left its internal wall inflamed. The most telling clue for Wecht was that the inflammation was "chronic." To a forensic pathologist that unequivocal term meant the inflammation was at least forty-eight to seventy-two hours old. "Chronic" was not open to interpretation. The inflammation had not occurred shortly before her death. It was not fresh. It had not been inflicted in the minutes before she died, or even the hours before her death. If she died late on December 25, something had caused this inflammation on December 22 or 23, and perhaps even earlier. More recent inflammation would have been called "acute." This was "chronic"; this was older. By the same token, however, the inflammation had not been caused weeks or months before, because that would have healed before this postmortem examination.

No, "chronic inflammation" meant to Cyril Wecht that JonBenet Ramsey had been sexually molested a few days before her death.



 :cool:

Thank you, Robots, for spelling that out ~ I was getting out my books to start quoting.....it would have taken me a while.   :shock: