Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/NH.gif)

Good Morning Monkeys.

Hi, ummmmmm..the other thread is stuck on pg. 49 and no one is talking, lol.

LOL..I came over here as Anna said there was a rumour people were posting here. Hard when its stuck at the end of a thread and quiet.

Got it to 50!

I want one too but my husband said no  :roll:

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/AnnaBlueSkies/Dogs%20of%20Mine/IMG_1156.jpg)

HI :cool:

Klaas, check the lock on the last thread...

Goodmorning, all.

we need to get ocean's posts over here re: weather and update...

It's locked now.  When I post that I've locked it I always wait a bit in case someone is in the middle of a post.

Maine Anna...Maine

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/

UPDATE: 11-Dec, 2007: 0900 est - The Persistence is delayed for it's last long leg of the voyage to Aruba. It is scheduled to arrive on Saturday thanks to Tropical Storm Olga.
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/sloop-wv.html

Well, I have asked Ocean Explorer if these weather delays will cut unto the time allotted for the search?  Is there a set number of days that the boat and equipment is available?

So will bring this forward and off to work and lurk and will look for his answer later today.

Klaas, you sometimes have to pick one and looks like your hubby won this one!  If it is any consolation, they are a lot of trouble and demanding as heck!  Going to take them outside to play in the sunshine, however, so that should make us all happy.  And maybe I will get at least five ornaments on my tree today, haha.

.

http://www.orbit.nesdis.noaa.gov/smcd/opdb/aviation/loops/realtime/atlir_loope.html

Imagery Loop - Atlantic Basin

Where Robots lives!  I think I would die if I lived there.  I can't breath in the cold.  And to me cold is below freezing.  Wow, some of you amaze me that you can live and function where it is so cold like Canada. 

And just where is that Robots anyway, he is supposed to be here encouraging us!

.

http://weather.org/caribbean.htm

Could some one help clear up for me, please. I thought that Freddie worked at another bar before Champions, and went there after all this happened. Could soneone please correct me if I'm wrong on this? TIA

I don't remember ever knowing where Freddy worked until we found that photo of him at Champions. I believe that Champions photo was from November or December 2005 and we don't know how long he worked there.  He could have been working there May 2005 as far as I know.

RAMM translation from Joran's book

- Joran met Freddy Zedan Arambatzis when Freddy was 19, they met during a tournament at the racquetball club.

- Freddy is a light colored latino from Venezuela that only spoke papi. Joran thinks he is a nice guy

- he invited Joran to go with him and his friends sometime and Joran accepted that invitation (first time out ever for Joran that was)

- Freddy lives close to Joran. He is doing hotel management. A course given in dutch. Because Freddy was new to dutch the education was difficult. Joran helped him with school work

http://scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2482&sid=b2eb293a37ceefffad74e79c61cd41c0

Could someone give me the FULL name of the Racquet Club please?

Thanks Klaas!...I remember the photo and it being from a later date. Could be that's where I became confused. Then Tylers' and Truthseekers' posts make sense to me now.

Here is something that is bothering me:

Koen's alibi is that he was at a party with many guests and not in Aruba, the day after Natalee went missing. However, its is also said that, he attempted to provide an alibi for Joran, by saying he was playing tennis with him that Monday afternoon and evening. I have read that the prosecutor in June 2005 wanted to interview him but couldn't, and his Father gave a statement in his place. So what is the truth here?

1. Was Koen in Aruba?
2. Did Koen meet with Joran Sunday or Monday?
3. Did Koen give a statement in early June 2005?
4. Did Koen invite Joran on a boat party that sunday evening but Joran said he was going to C&C instead?
5. How can someone be in Aruba or not be in Aruba all at the same time?

Nut...Aruba Racquet Club

TY Mum

http://www.arc.aw/

#4 - No, it was Sander that invited Joran on the boat but Joran said no.  It's in one of Sanders statements.

MumInOhio
Scared Monkey
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Re: Natalee Case Discussion #703 12/8 - 12/11//2007
« Reply #973 on: Today at 10:42:24 AM »
   
Quote from: Tylergal on Today at 10:32:15 AM
Quote from: Nut44x4 on Today at 06:33:03 AM
Someone asked earlier where he worked...Freddie worked at Champion’s Bar at the Marriott.

A ping sounded all the way to Bill's House (Willard Marriott).

Now I'm confused,again. I thought he worked at another bar and then went to the Marriott after all this.


I thought Merian was speaking of the K2...one went back to help.  Hmmmmmm.  Let's see do we know if the MB teens were at the bar at the Marriott at any time?   Need to make that connection, someone help me out here, please. TIA

Spock..here is a post of Nut's from last night. Will have a look at the statement dates of koen and Sander.

Old post....interesting to read again RE: Koen
Anonymous said...
He was questioned right away but he has an airtight alibi. He was in south Florida visiting friends the when this happened. It was verified by pictures, talking to friends, his plane ticket and the fact that he was at a birthday party here with 78 witnesses! Dead end, AGAIN!!

Fri Jan 13, 03:08:00 PM EST   
~~~~~~~~~
Anonymous said...
also read today that someone unnamed had their alibi broken recently.

Mon Jan 16, 07:33:00 PM EST
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BrownSugar said...
I know for a fact that there is a REAL witness (not the gardner, jogger, etc.) who actually SAW the three take off in Koen's boat during those couple hours before Mrs. Twitty arrived at the Van der Sloot home.

This witness can't come forward. He is too afraid for himself and his family. I don't even know if JVDS and Daddy even know about this witness. Remember, there's no such thing as a perfect crime.

However, if this witness talks, this case will break right open.

It all depends on whether or not someone (i.e. Joran, Deepak, Koen, Satish) want to come clean and save their country from utter demise.

Alas, we all know that Joran doesn't care about anyone but himself, so he will move on. He'll go back to Holland and act like royalty and keep repeating his lame saying, "I just want to get on with my life". What a selfish bastard.Mon Jan 16, 08:55:00 PM EST   
http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2006/01/keep-close-eye-on-koen-gottenbos.html

From Jonathan http://www.hollowaycase.com
(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3717/vdshome2td7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

June 14, 2005
... At approximately 17.00 pm, I was dropped off by my father at the Raquet Club.

... Between the hours of 17.00 pm and 18.00 pm I was in the gym. I was talking there with "Koen" nickname "Cul". We spoke that it was cowardly/weak and that no one was there.


Joran Van der Sloot
Joran's Book

Chapter 9 The Lies (P 97-137)

Page 98

Paul drops Joran off at the RC at 6:15, but none of his friends are there so he doesn't feel like playing tennis. He gives his trainer an excuse and goes to the gym where he meets Koen.




Art Wood
NATIONAL ENQUIRER
January 6, 2006
"Joran told police that he played tennis with a friend during the evening hours. And the pal backed up his alibi. But when I investigated the Racquet Club I found that Joran had never played tennis there that night."



List of Statements given by Koen:
http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/Statements_timeline.htm

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=299.0
SANDER GOTTENBOS - 06/17/2005 STATEMENT

(snipped)
On your question if I had contact with Joran on May 29, 2005, I tell you the following;
I had telephone contact with Joran on May 29, 2005, this was around 11.00.

On your question about how the conversation went, I will tell you the following;
The conversation went that I asked him if he wanted to go out on my fathers boat.

He said that he could not go because he was going to play poker at the Holiday Inn. There is tournament each Sunday in aforementioned hotel and Joran participates almost each week in that tournament.

On your question what kind of boat my father has, I will explain to you the following:
 It is a speedboat, of the make "Sea Pro".

On your question if Joran had been on our boat before, I will explain to you the following:
Joran has never been on our boat and has also never with our dangers. (?)

Spock Sander 6/16 and 6/17 - statements

Koen 6/16, 6/17/ 6/20 and 8/30 - statements

Hope I didn't miss any!

Lala's this is what Truthseeker posted this morning

Merian Ernest Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: GSM Orwellian
What is wrong? The brothers had to be separated. The Babylonians have layed it thick and hard, but couldn't get what they asked for.

Tricked out cars and pc's. One decided to stay home and the other went to help. The Babylonians knew he was a bifrons. He bleeped on the screen all the way to Bill's lodgings.

I can't find Koen's statements in the archives, didn't we have copies?

No, we have never seen any of Koen's statements.

So, was Koen in Aruba or not?

I wonder why we have Sander's and not Koen's.

I honestly don't know, but I bet ALE does!

Maybe Koen was the one with the alibi that was "not so tight".  What do we know about this party in S. Florida that was his alibi?

I do not remember reading any from Koen...although like the mac.com link states...looks like he was questioned.

Perhaps it was Sander in the boat...hence his phone is with Natalee.

It's getting clearer. Koen was not in Aruba, Joran lied about the tennis club meeting. However, Sander and the boat were out that Sunday night.  

Wonder what his phone records looked like for 5/30/05.....good thought on where his 'stolen' phone is...

We don't know if Koen, Val and Sebastian were even in Aruba or if Freddy was sleeping in Jorans' bed. Can you say alibi? If only we knew where these guys really were!

Anna,

The search will go on regardless of the delays.  We are going in with the purpose of finding Natalee and bringing closure to the family.  From my understanding, the delays on this end just push back the search and will not shorten it. Also, the search is not dependant on the case being open or closed.  That's not our concern.  It's all for the family.

If this was my case, I would be trying to figure out, who was with sander on the boat that night , and what the timeline was.

Thanks!  I was getting concerned with all this bad weather.  Hope the storm moves out of that region quickly and leaves all in its wake safe.

.

Wouldn't surprise me to find out that phony airline bookings could be provided to the PERVERTS.

What would surprise me is that the destination records could be falsified without leaving any trail if researched.  Now again one of the infamous questions IS THERE ANYBODY IN THE USA WITH AUTHORITY INVESTIGATING ANY OF THIS??????

Thank you for the update and for the help you are giving to the family. How long do you expect to be conducting the search?

God be with you oceans.

I really don't know how long it will take.  The obvious answer:  I guess we'll see won't we.

I have said many times on this site that Sander's phone being 'stolen' is way to coincidental.  When questioned he immediately said "stolen"...not lost.  If they can ping everyone else's cell phone they should be able to ping this 'missing' phone.

1. Sander invites Joran to a party on his father's boat 05/29
2. Natalee is missing 05/29-05/30
3. Sander's phone is missing 05/30

Yes, it would be interesting to know who was on that boat.

The phone is interesting in that I believe if Sander was with Joran and Deepak those two could have used Sander's phone to send that IM 'conversation' (that was not really a conversation in terms of one person says something and then the other person says something) through their computers.  Those IM's were not conversational.  Deepak posted 3 then Joran posted 3.  Could Deepak have sent his 3 and then handed the phone to Joran to post his responses???

Thank You and God Bless You for this extraordinary effort.

Dave and Art Wood said that Koen had never been questioned.
I can't remember when they said that, but it was later in the timeframe.

OceanEx:

Safe travels for you!  I have a feeling your exploration will be an extraordinary, history-making success.  Truly heroic, you all are.

http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/12/11/ (http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/12/11/)

Not much on this first article; guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow.


Online Pap translation:

child adicto owing to propina his mother six hinca yesterday

oranjestad(aan) one caso cu can was have end fateful did take lugar yesterday afternoon in semeleerstraat at north, where one person cu is adicto owing to propina his mother six hinca.

at dado instant police even have to owing to saca arm pe till cu past owing to dicidi of let the arm blanco cay. in the edicion here can read more of the caso here.

* * *
Diario brings up a "secondary" concern in the case - one or more dangerous people are marching freely around Auba. Also mentions specific snippets of the taped polis van conversation.


Online Pap translation:

in caso natalee;
have sospechosonan dangerous is march rond

oranjestad (aan) --te today not was have atencion berdadero for thing is deal one or more person dangerous cu keto bay is march rond in we comunidad siendo cu they was envolvi in desaparicion of natalee halloway.

have to menciona the word dangerous because cualkier person envolvi as is uno or more cu uno, that or kendenan was capaz y dispuesto for let one person desaparece cu till today none autoridad policial or hudicial can arrive at achieve know paradero of dje; type of hendenan so is dangerous.

much owing to wordo talk y investiga but one of the aspectonan secundario more important cu autoridadnan hudicial till today not owing to as cuenta cune is, cu on we island y kizas in exterior also, have person is march rond cu have of haci cu asesinato, rape, dead, maltrato etc of or desaparicion of one young americano cu owing to come aruba for happen vakantie.

till cu ultimo simannan all atencion was dirigi on only three sospechoso cu already rond world is conoci, siendo cu cualkier investigador cu analisa good the raportnan of police y also another informacionnan relaciona cu the caso of natalee, is saca the conclusion cu have at least three another person more cu also is sospechoso y cu have to wordo deteni for interogacion berdadero.

the caso of natalee owing to let people of aruba close conoci cu husticia of clase because the trato cu the sospechosonan owing to achieve in the caso here was one trato cu never y never one child of ground owing to arrive of achieve in casonan similar.

for casonan of less weight, one aruban crioyo {crioyo?} was achieve all weight of persecusion penal y policial on his back but in the caso of natalee was good bisto cu door cu was deal of child of one funcionario dutch of for colmo the apparatus hudicial at aruba, is pesey they owing to achieve one trato preferencial y now owing to come leave afor cu till even trato cuestionable they owing to achieve of one high funcionario of ministerio publico, according declaracionnan haci door of ex comisario dompig.

during simannan venidero redaccion will bay publica sistematicamente con cierto aspectonan important of the caso did take lugar according informacionnan general on the caso.loke owing to wing much atencion in the caso here was conversacion graba in the car cu was transporta the three sospechosonan principal, where cu the tresnan here owing to haci declaracionnan contra another cu is give all indicacion cu algo bad will owing to happen cu natalee.

pakico one of the kalpoenan owing to tell joran cu ‘si they achieve the child muher then the hour joran will achieve enough year of castigo’?si was deal of bluff among three adolescente then cada that can think on various another asunto but not in one caso so earnest.

the another declaracion where cu joran in the same car is tell one of the kalpoenan algo owing to la estilo; “e child muher cu you have strike cu car!’cua child muher one of the kalpoenan owing to strike cu car?esakinan is immidiately some aspecto cu will wordo treci for fast during dianan venidero for so cada that can achieve one mihor view on various informacion cu not was conoci for publico provided that general y not was have analisis work on they.

stay pendiente because have hendenan cu owing to leave of the apparatus hudicial y is pakico they owing to leave or owing to bay work another caminda for after of time as directo or indirecto they self pour abao or crea the impresion of is pour abao in the caso of natalee?!

all the time people of aruba have cu live cu the mature cu keto bay have one or more person dangerous is march rond ribs the island y cu kizas will can let more person desaparece in future because till today neither three child autoridadnan policial y of ministerio publico not can owing to mansa in the caso of desaparicion of natalee siendo cu is they three was the ultimonan cu owing to wordo see cu natalee.

* * *

Good question! Would not think it would have been that hard to verify on this end.

If ALE knew Koen was in Florida, then why would they need to question him 4 times. Makes me wonder.

Safe travels, OceanEx.

If Koen wasn't even on Aruba when Natalee went missing, what would be the explanation for his "meltdown" problems that followed?  Those type of behavior problems are demonstrative of "consciousness of guilt".  Not normal behavior of one who has no involvement.  Also doubt he would be having such difficulties just because his brother had been involved.  There must be more to this part of the story.  Two businesses and a family uprooted and relocated pronto, just because their kids were hanging out with some bad influences?  Pretty drastic, IMO.

I saw that precious baby and I wanted one too but DH has that dog from Hell that is jealous of everything that breathes.

Can you 'ping' a phone underwater?  :2thinky:

Anna, after a while you and I would adjust just fine.  Remember those doctors who tell us the reason certain ethnic groups do not do well in certain climates because they genetically are not in sync with the climate.  We are blonds.  We would do fine in cold weather country.  It would just take a few weeks to acclimate.  I did terrible in California, stayed sick constantly when I lived there.

 Yo Klaas, did you get my e-mail from yesterday?

ALE questioning Koen...
1st  time questioned   Q =  Were you   
2nd time questioned   Q =  in Aruba
3rd  time questioned   Q = with Joran
4th  time questioned   Q = on May 30, 2005
 :roll:

Q#1  with

 -  Q#1  with  lol....God I need an edit button :2doh:

I read some place, cannot remember where that Sander stated Joran was afraid of boats and it was at that time that we found the picture of him and what appeared to be a "native girl" attempting to engage in sex with their clothes on, perhaps a prelude to things to come.

Good question!  I posted an article a few days ago about the FBI having the ability to remotely access a cell phone and use it for a microphone, even when it's turned off, as long as the battery is in it.  Able to locate them within a few feet.  Made me think of the "lost" phone and others.  If the FBI can, the KLPD can.

Where is Atlmetroguy or another phone guru?

My prayers are with you.

Just responded.  I have 4 different email addresses to check every day and sometimes I forget..sorry.  :lol:

If this has already been answered, I apologize, but I thought Koen was brought in and his father interdicted and the next time he was summoned to come in, his father went in his stead.

I doubt it, but it shoul have been pinging just before it went in.

I remember that too, but we found 4 different statement dates. But Nut explained that!
Good one Nut. Have a good one, everybody!

I believe Koen was questioned early on but when Dave gave ALE more information and asked that they bring Koen in again that's when the father came in instead.  As far as I know he was never questioned about his boat.

Hi Everybody.

Something I never thought about.  What if Joran stating that Sander wanted him to go out in the boat was a cover in case the boat was spotted out in the water. 

1.  Sander ask Joran to go out in the boat earlier in the evening.  Joran says no, but after he did something to Natalee, and remembered that Sander was out on the boat.  So joran calls Sander and tells him to bring his boat up close to shore because he's got a problem, and needs to get rid of something (Natalee).  Sander beaches the boat so Joran can come aboard with a deceased Natalee.  Maybe Koen was with Sander and freaked out.  Maybe that is why all the protection for Koen.  He's the weak link.  In the process Sander losses his phone.

2.  Sander never ask Joran to go out on the boat earlier in the evening.  Maybe that story was in case Sander and the boat were seen on the water?

So many lies.
Did that make any sense?

Thank you very much! :)

The crime was simple.  The cover-up was not. 

Hi Monkeys,
I want to thank Klaas for getting me back in the discussion since I was briefly in here during the summer of 2005. I have followed the events and discussions sporadically these two and a half years while riding the emotional rollercoaster with you all. I read this morning and may be confused, but did someone on the list mention that the FBI is questioning two people? I hope this does not start a rumor but would like to know.

Thanks,
Darivah

Howdy Darivah   :smt006

Hi Darivah - not sure what you are referring to.  Can you tell me where you read that?  If here which thread/page?  TIA

Howdy right back at ya!
Right now I'm sitting up here in Northern Illinois watching the freezing rain accumulate on the trees, feeling depressed about the disgusting turn of events for Natalee and her loved ones. Sometimes I have to just stop "lurking" and walk away from the computer because of my anger. As a parent and grandparent this whole debacle infuriates me! Then, I have to come back to
"lurk" more because your blog offers the most insight into this mess. Thanks Monkeys.

Darivah

There is a reason why Joran put into a statement that Sander wanted him to go out on the boat that evening.  Why?

Why was Koen said to be so afraid that he was sleeping with his parents?  Why is Koen so protected? 

Herein lies the answers.

JMHO

Actually yes...this does make sense Snoopy.

I hope the freezing rain lets up for you.  We had our share the other nioght.  Thankfully we were just South of it.  South of St. Louis that is.  Don't lurk.  Jump right in.  Scared Monkeys is the best place to be.

Klaas,
I seem to have read that the FBI was questioning a couple of guys in a thread on your site, but may have gotten into an old discussion from 2005 or 2006. That's why I said I didn't want to start a rumor. I don't think it was during December, and hope I haven't started some kind of rumor. I will try to find the comment, but may not be able to do it easily. I do know it was on this site and none of the others that might be out there. I apologize if I have confused anyone (usually I'm the one always confused lol).

Darivah

Must be OLD because I don't remember anything new.

Could the FBI come into the case if Mos doesn't take it to trial? Have we heard if that is a possibility?

I doubt it, they would have to jump through dozens of procedural hoops, and still they would need a Dutch Judges approval to question the suspects. As I see it, the best way for the family to get the suspects on the stand, is to sue them in Aruban civil proceedings. They would need a Judges approval to get the case to trial, but if they succeeded, the suspects could not remain silent on the stand. However, to get that far, they will need for this ocean search to succeed.

I think the verdict is out on that one.  Not sure if anyone really knows for sure.  I do believe it was Art Wood that said they could, but who really knows?

I really believe that is just hearsay. One person said he heard from another. At this point, I dont think Koen was on the island. However, by his own admission, Sander and the boat had plans Sunday evening.

Agreed.  What about Dave's book where he says that as he was driving past Koen's house that when Koen saw Dave he dove behind the couch or something like that?  Sorry I can't remember exactly how Dave said it.  I let a friend borrow the book.

Perhaps J2K took drugged Nat to a party on the boat? Nat woke up and found phone and tried to call home and got caught? and something went bad?

Hi all! I know it's been a while since I last posted, but RL sometimes gets in the way. I've been reading though and know you monkeys have been holding the fort, even though it seems things are not going too well for the good guys. :(

Any whoo, I was just wonderin', I posted this at my other home, websleuths, and I couldn't seem to get anyone interested in it. Frankly, I think it's a good piece of the puzzle. Since Joran has used the excuse he left Natalee 'alone' on the beach because he had school the next day and he had a test. He did very well too, he says. Oh, and JoeT has repeated that several times around the airwaves. But, but,........yesterday I was looking for something, LOL, on the best site for archived info regarding the Holloway case, scaredmonkeys :), and I came across this on PVDS 6/23/05 statement. Paulus is talking about getting Joran up for school on Tuesday, the day after the MB group arrived on the island.

It seems to me that Joran had the entire day on Monday, BEFORE Beth et all arrived to scurry around the island and take care of business. :-x

What do ya think?

TIA,
fran

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=459.0
 
 woke up Valentijn and Sebastian and I also said to Joran that he
had to go to school even though he wasn't in the mood to go. I know
that I insisted that he should go. A reason for that might be that he had
already not gone to school on Monday. I then left for work. I think it
was approximately 7.30 hours when I called the headmaster of the
International School. I had told him that Joran had not slept all night
and asked for him to be understanding just in case Joran was feeling
sleepy.

Yes.  But as I understand it this only happens if Aruba "officially" closes the case.  Then the FBI can step in ith it's own investigation.  This is why I believe Mos is as sly as a fox on this one.  like a warning shot to the baddies that he might be "closing" the case on December 31 -- thus opening the door for the FBI, and remember the US government can certainly go after baddies in other countries -- even by kidnapping (recent news about abducting Brits if needed).

Dave's Book pg. 177
"Art Wood and I drove by Koen's house and saw a boat around the side and Koen and his father were out there working on it. The front door was wide open and we decided to drive by a few times. One time, Koen was walking into the livingroom and he saw us going by slowly, so he barrel-rolled and hid behind the couch."

Yes, we discussed that at length some time ago.  I agree that Joran didn't go to school that day and had all day to clean up and get rid of evidence.  Also we know that Satish missed school that day too.  The "aced an exam" is BS, there were no exams that day.

For any who wish to review a bit on Sander by SM front page...
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2006/09/01/natalee-holloway-investigation-sander-gottenbus-june-16-2005-statements/

 How does Sander Gottenbus know every minute detail of Joran Van der Sloot’s “lie”? The Holiday Inn and the initial story that Joran told was a fraud? Not that Joran would not have told him roughly what he claimed to have occurred that night. The problem is in the details.........

Could someone tell me the fathers 1st name??

Alexander

Oh thanks Klaasend. I shoulda' known the monkeys wouldn't let something like that fall through without notice by you all. :)

fran

So how did he talk so long to get that information without his cell phone since it was stolen? So where was he to have it stolen? Plus, that Sea Pro is a fishing boat and small, 24ft or less. Should have pretty deep gouges from the fish trap since it"s the wrong style boat for a large fish trap. But they probably already looked at it, right?

Thanks for the name Klaas. I think it is weird that Alexander Gottenbos doesn't even exist other than in the Natalee Holloway case. Hell....even I am on google, lol. :cool:

He exists in Georgia and he used to exist in Aruba for his Insurance firm.

sander used the boat sunday afternoon and possibly after dark.  did he trailer it when finished or left it at a dock?  i thought the thinking was that they used the boat monday afternoon and evening to take the body to sea.  was koen back then from the u.s.?  was koen missing school to be in the u.s. for a party?
dennisintn

Images captured in 2005 regarding Alexander Gottenbos:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/gottenbosinsurance.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/gottenbosbussale.jpg)

If they were working on it at the house then they have a trailer. But they may have dock it over night. Plus they did forensics on the tow vehicle right?

We have no way of knowing if they did any forensics at all on either the boat or the trailer:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/koenboat-1.jpg)

their idea of forensics is tossing some human remains in a desk drawer and then go have a sandwich.  If anyone ever asks about the bone - just tell them it was from a donkey or an old pirate.

I really doubt they have ever done any kind of forensics on anything related to this case.

Tim Miller or someone from TES gave Jacobs a piece of plastic they dug out of the suspected grave site they were searching.  Jacobs threw it away.

They gave him a belt they found near the same spot that a cadaver dog had a hit and he said it was just an old belt and threw it away.

This means he either new what and where the body was and knew these things had nothing to do with the case or he was part of the cover up.


there have been no forensics.

I know little about fishing traps.  If it was toobig for this type of boat, or if it would damage the boat, is there any way Natalee could have been placed in the trap in the water or on the beach? Then the trap draged by the boat until they decided to weight it and drop it at sea?

What would Sander be doing out that late on a school night?  Is it a normal habit to go out on a boat by yourself that late at night?  There had to have been more involved if this went down, than Joran and one of the Gottenbos boys.

Do we know for a FACT that the Gottenbos' boat was out that night?  If so, how do we know this?

Could the Gottenbos been painting, cleaning or repairing boat from minor damage?  From the little I have heard about the Gottenbos boys, I could see Sander being more involved than Koen.  From the early MYspace etc. sites he looked like he had a "wilder" side than Koen. Then the trap dragged by the boat until they decided to weight it and drop it at sea?

Kind of like the park ranger finding the fabric on the beach. Just fish nets.

I'm sure there has been a lot of possible evidence and testimony in this case , leads etc that have been dismissed as being "nothing."  Most of them we probably don't even know about.  :(

just a piece about Gottenbos and I've written about it, whenever I used his name in a title on my blog, the hits from the Hague were 5-10 times higher. All from different IP's.

I am not a big proponent of the connections to the Hague theories but this was something interesting.

And what do you think it means?

Very interesting Frank. . .

Zoltan Zion blogspot this afternoon announcing that a "source" has confirmed that the person in the casino video is definitely Paulus van der Sloot.  Also confirming that Van Der Straaten was definitely at the party at the Sloots after Joran's release from his original detention.

yes.
I think both Dave, Beth have confirmed it.  One of the suspects may have evn confirmed it but dont quote me on that,

is that a popular name over there?

Yes I agree on the boat being to small or they would have damaged the interior. I've tried towing objects that are not rafts and usually you end up breaking the rope. Lets hope so either way.

I do not believe it was towed. It was placed on the boat and when they got to 'the spot'....they pushed it over.

Perhaps that's why they were working on the boat in the days following ... :wink:

Sander must go to a US HS, or is he out of school yet?

Is Koen in college in Holland, or is he just living there?  Do we know where in Holland?  Close to Joran?

as sad as it sounds - that is porbably how it went.

clues and evidence disappeared like magic.
david copperfield would have been proud.

Sander was going to school in Georgia but the last I heard he was playing soccer in the NL.  Not sure if Sander is still in the USA or not, probably not.  Koen I believe is in the NL but not 100% sure.

Maybe they originally told dad it was damaged another way. When dad heard what happened to Natalee, knew the boat had been out, and knew his sons were friends with Joran, he may have put two and two together without asking.

Knowing the ramifications he may have not wanted to know and told the boys to just keep quiet ( sounds all too common on that island.),

He may have wanted wanted to destroy any possible evidence and get Koen out of there.

I remeber reading at oen tiem that the Kotenbos' boat was sold in the summer of 2005.  Does anyone else remeber that?

A whole lot of gel coat thats going to match the trap exactly. Especially since the flooring is rough on the boat. I saw that boat posted by Hot Shot more than a year ago.

...working on it with leftover bleach from deepak's chocolate candy bar.
...and used satish's vacuum cleaner from all the ants.
...joran was in the cabin studying for his exams.
...freddy was doing a documentary.
...jacobs was in the house eating frosted flakes.
...judge smid was near the gate to stop search warrants.
...paulus was still playing poker from the night before, although he did make a stop or two at mcdonalds for late night snack.

The Gottenbos family is related to the Sloots and Anita has her connections, possibly Paulus too but my understanding is that those connections came via Anita early on.

yes.

. . . and Anita was shopping for more blue plaid shirts for Joran.

If this is true it sure as hell makes Mos, Janssen, ALE, KLPD and the rest of that bunch look corrupt as hell. Paulus and the trolls have been denying that was him for 2 1/2 years now. Dutch judges said there were reason to believe there were two contacts by Paulus with Natalee. Even if he didn't pick her and Joran up at McDonalds, when was the first contact? Had to be the casino at the blackjack table.

If they were eating meat, they are definitely not Hindu, so what are they?  I think I read where Dompig's son was Jewish.  Do you think they proclaim Judaism so he could eat chicken wings?

The Black & White, Birmingham's City Paper

http://tinyurl.com/37v4ky


By Chuck Geiss

May 17, 2007

New details are emerging in the Natalee Holloway case, almost two years after her disappearance on a high school graduation trip to Aruba.

Investigators from the Netherlands, who have legal authority over the Caribbean island, have recently taken the Holloway case under review as a two-year statute of limitations approaches on May 30, 2007. Recent news that investigators have carried out searches at the residences of the three principal suspects, Joran van der Sloot and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, have come at an important time according to Vinda de Sousa, the Aruban attorney hired by Natalee's father, Dave Holloway.

"According to Article 6 of the European Treaty for Human Rights, suspects of a crime involved in a stalled case are given a certain period of time, which has been ruled by the Dutch Supreme Court to be a period of two years, to be prosecuted for those crimes," de Sousa says. "However, [there are] circumstances, including the complexity of the case, the demeanor of the suspects, and other considerations, that allow leeway for suspects to be prosecuted should any 'new' evidence in the case surface, even after the two-year period."

As these ambiguous legal statutes now play out, it appears that the Dutch authorities have a sense of urgency to uncover evidence before the May 30 deadline.

Aruban authorities have clearly botched the case. In a letter to the attorney general of Aruba dated November 1, 2005, an attorney for Dave Holloway requested the replacement of the entire Aruban investigative and prosecutorial team, citing the following incidents as proof that the group was unprofessional and inept.

1. After arriving on the island, Holloway went to the Noord Police Station and asked to speak with the lead detective on the case. In response to Holloway's questions, detective Dennis Jacobs asked "How much money do you have?" He also told Holloway to "just go on down to Carlos and Charlie's and have a beer, she'll show up sometime."

2. According to Holloway, the prime suspect, Joran van der Sloot, told Jacobs, "I think that Deepak killed Natalee and buried her body," yet Jacobs failed to follow up with any questions at all as to the circumstances surrounding that event or where the body might be located.

3. Statements taken by Jacobs from Natalee's mother, Beth Twitty, were translated from English to Dutch and later back to English, but in their final form they in no way represented what she had told Jacobs.

4. Evidence found at the sand dunes by a professional investigator named Fred Golba that included a belt possibly worn by van der Sloot (determined from a photograph) and pieces of plastic (consistent with trash bag liners that might have been used in discarding a body) were collected, turned over to Jacobs, and later discarded by him as "meaningless."

5. In July of 2005, a tourist found a bone on the beach with flesh intact that appeared to be a human shoulder and turned it in to the Noord Police Station; Jacobs and his team discarded this evidence.

6. One of three girls who had accused van der Sloot of rape charges following the disappearance of Holloway led her attorney to believe that she had decided to change her story after receiving a phone call from Jacobs.

7. Deputy Chief of Police Gerald Dompig advised Beth Twitty that she had made a poor choice in hiring Aruban attorney Helen Lejuez to represent her and claimed that she had mental problems. What he failed to mention was that Lejuez had represented his wife in their divorce settlement.

Dompig, who has since been replaced in the investigation without explanation, is an important character. Under his leadership, the investigation into Holloway's disappearance was lethargic in responding to events of the day and fraught with mysterious statements. Dompig was responsible for leaking news on June 12, 2005, that one of the boys had confessed and had admitted that "something bad happened to Natalee." This sensational news eventually turned out to be a hoax orchestrated solely by him. Dompig repeatedly offered the family and media the statement that "the investigation is reaching a critical moment," words that turned out to be hollow and, over time, enormously annoying. Eyebrows were raised when Dompig's son, Michael, was arrested and detained, in April of 2006, for being involved in the case. Dompig himself was later dismissed from office with little fanfare in June of 2006.

Holloway's immaculate disappearance, along with the fact that apparently none of the primary suspects are worried that her body might ever be found, suggests that a conspiracy might exist. Joran's father, Paulus van der Sloot, told the boys early in the investigation that "where there is no body, there is no case." During taped conversations in the back of a police car shortly after their arrest, Joran is heard telling Deepak, "I will laugh if they find the girl alive."

Joran has offered four different accounts of what happened the night that Holloway went missing: The boys dropped her off at the hotel (an admitted lie); Deepak and Satish dropped Joran and Natalee at the beach north of the Marriott Hotel, Joran left her there, and later called Deepak for a ride home; Joran left her at the beach and walked home; and Joran left her at the beach and Satish gave him a ride home. There are good reasons to believe that none of these stories are true.

New searches being conducted by Dutch authorities suggest that Natalee might actually have been driven to Joran's home where she met her fate. While they dig around the van der Sloot compound and the Kalpoes home at this very late date, they might want to also take some other facts into consideration.

First, there were no searches conducted by the Aruban police of the suspects' cars or homes for 10 days following Holloway's disappearance. Deepak was seen by neighbors cleaning his car at 4 a.m. on the night of her disappearance with a substance that was later determined to be bleach (he initially testified that he was removing sand from the car, and later changed his story to say that he was getting rid of ants).

Videotapes from the hotel casino appear to show Paulus gambling with Natalee the night of her disappearance (a very strange coincidence). In front of several witnesses, Paulus van der Sloot stated on May 31 that he had picked up Joran at a McDonald's at 4 a.m. the night of Holloway's disappearance (a disclosure that completely discredits the testimony of the boys' timeline of activities during the evening's critical events). Electronic bank records indicate that Paulus withdrew three large amounts of cash from an ATM around 4 a.m.

One must wonder why these three boys would leave home late on a Sunday night to meet at a bar that was closing in 30 minutes. Joran coaxed Deepak and Satish into that very scenario, arriving at 12:30 a.m. at a bar that closes at 1 a.m., where Natalee and her Mountain Brook friends were spending their last night on the island. Local boys engaging girls on the last night of their vacation and taking advantage of them is a notoriously popular activity in Aruba.

There is an abundance of information relating to Holloway's disappearance that has not been properly investigated. It is clear that Aruban law enforcement authorities are either incapable or unwilling to get to the bottom of the matter. Whether Dutch authorities can remains to be seen.

I don't know what page but I have this saved from a PM from someone I trust who is usually right.

Quote:

Finally, the 10th witness. And in his book, Dave says Michael Dompig put Paul vdS in the Gottenboes' boat -not Joran.

Don't have my copy of book at hand.  But this is as I remember it and it was on Monday that Michael said this happened, wasn't it?

To Scubajap or did she buy the von Loon's father's boat?  She bought one that was connected in some way or other, can't recall now it has been so long ago.

.

I just want to thank Klaas, Red, Tom, Dugga, et al, for this site. Such a respite from the other sites claiming any degree of concern for Natalee's plight.

That was what I was wondering, Anna, and I am thinking that we were told she had connection to both boats.  Her family is in the business of water entertainment, so it could be they bought both boats.  Anything she can do to take the spotlight of suspicion off the sporter.

Hi Anna! It's been quite a while sine I've read Dave's book and I'm sick with pneumonia so maybe it's the fever, but I don't remember that from the book. I do have it here, and would be glad to look it up. Got any idea the approximate location in the book?

Wait.........I've got it. I'll post it.

any idea what chapter or where in the book?  I have a copy I could look it up real quick

Jossy Mansur and Kimberly Guilfoyle's sources claim that Paulus van der Sloot was the man in the security recording who was conversing with Natalee Holloway.  Inquiring minds want to know why both  Joran and Paulus lied regarding when Paulus left the casino.  Both father and son claim the the exodus took place half-way during the Poker tournament ... prior to Joran's encounter with the MB students at the Black Jack table.

Janet

+++++++++++


Kimberly Guilfoyle
THE LINEUP
June 9, 2006
 
FUILFOYLE: It has been one year since the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Unfortunately we are left now with more questions than answers. What we do know is that Joran and the Kalpoe brothers were the last people seen with Natalee Holloway, which is the reason why they still remain to this day the main suspects in the case. As for Paulus, sources say he is the person next to Natalie in the casino.


Jossy Mansur
Dana Pretzer Show
December 14, 2006

PRETZER: When you look at this case, a question keeps coming up. I am looking at the picture on my PC. It is the alleged picture of a person in the casino with Natalee that looks a lot like Paul. Has there been any update on this issue?

MANSUR: There have not been any change of opinion. People, including people in the casino say that is Paul.


Joran Van der Sloot
On the Record w/ Greta
March 1, 2006
 
VAN DER SLOOT: .... And yes, so my dad had come with me. And halfway through, he — because my mom at the time was in Holland, halfway through, he had to go back home to my little brother because he was home alone. And I took his place at the poker tournament because I had lost earlier. So I went in and I took his place and I played for him.
 

Paulus Van der Sloot
Witness Statement
June 18, 2005

On May 29th 2005, at approximately 16.00 hours, I went with Joran to the “Free Carribean Stud Tournament” in the Holiday Inn. During the break, at approximately 18.30 hours, I went back home. My youngest son Sebastian who was playing at a friends house was due to be dropped off at home around that time. Joran, with my permission, took over my seat because he had been eliminated earlier

pg.118-119/ARUBA

He (Gerold Dompig's son). then started talking about the case, and during this conversation he mentioned that he had heard that Paulus van der Sloot had borrowed a friend's boat on either the night of Natalee's disappearance or the next day and that he was allegedly invololved with Natalee's murder. That brought to mind one of Joran's statements. He had referred to friend by the name of Koen Gottenbos. Apparently this friend's father owned a boat. The message was that this boat had been used to take Natalee out to sea. Another boat that was also mention by him was the Pair A Dice, which is a local boat from Aruba.

Aruba reports their health problems with the same lack of accuracy and zeal with which the report crimes.

We know they have had a death but look how they are not reporting it to the proper global information clearing center,  Guess that's something else that would be bad for tourists so they just don't report it.  No telling what goes on in the disease area since they do not participate with information gathering process the way all civilized countries do.

Quote:

Archive Number 20071211.3989
Published Date 11-DEC-2007
Subject PRO/EDR> Dengue/DHF update (48)

DENGUE/DHF UPDATE 2007 (48)
****************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

In this update:
[1] Indonesia (Jakarta)
[2] Indonesia (Central Java)
[3] Indonesia (East Java)
[4] Indonesia (East Kalimantan)
[5] Indonesia (South Sulaweisi)
[6] Indonesia (North Sulaweisi)
[7] Pakistan (Rawalpindi)
[8] Brazil (Ceara)
[9] Brazil (Sao Paulo state)

No Aruba.  Who knows what disease lurks there unreported.

.

It is Paulus in the casino video...we know this by his hairline...it's him...we know this by the fact that the RU has never said it's anyone else...it's him...otherwise they would be screaming the person's name at the top of their lungs.  Placing Paulus there at that time with Natalee when both he and Joran claimed he was home with the other two kids would be a big clue to what really happened and the fact that Paulus had met Natalee before Joran brought her home later that night.  It is Paulus...I have no doubt.  Now, if I am wrong prove it to me RU....I am waiting. :roll:

cbb ... I hope you are feeling better soon.  Lots of stuff going around this time of year.

Take care.

Janet

Yes, that's it.  Thank you.

.

Crazy Baby Borg, take care.   I hope you will be doing much better soon. I have had that community-acquired pneumonia this year, it was asthma and bronchitis, but it turned out to be pneumonia.  Take care you do not relapse, do what the doctors say and if you are not better soon, go back to see doctor.  Influenza-A is spreading in and around your area also.

Lala's, you know they cannot prove it.  If they even attempted, it would be with multiple compounded lies.  The only thing they ever seemingly did well, was lie.

Well, Michael Dompig was a huge liar according to his own father.  But was he?

If he is telling the truth, then we know who disposed of Natalee it would seem it was Paulus the next day.

I have always believed that Joran did put in an appearance at school but the headmaster said he was late and Paulus brought him.  I think Joran was still intoxicated and blathering one too much so Paulus came back and got him later in the day to shut him up.  But he had already told that story about Natalee hitting her head and he disposed of the body by pushing her out to sea. 

But we have been up against PR firm spin from the start not just Renfro and Purcell lies but the real pros not to mention the same from The Netherlands.

It's no wonder we are confused.  That was the idea from the start. 

There have been pros on the job and a tremendous amount of money spent to shape public perceptions in this.  Not about Sloots but about the big money on the island from the sleaze, tourists and financial irregularities.

My Opinion Only.

.

You're exactly right, Lala's. I'm not so sure I could be so positive about it soley from the video, but when you consider that no one ever produced the video of this man entering or exiting the casino where a "front view" could clearly determine whether it was Paulus or not, and the other things you mentioned, I have no doubt whatsoever it is Paulus.

Can someone help me? I know you've posted it somewhere but the "forensics" goon with Tacopina, what do we know about him?

Could someone that has Dave's book tell me where this is mentioned in the book? TIA

This is from the Grey Whisper posts...yes, more codetalk...sorry.

7:27 PM
Dan in Tx said...
So Whisper is a Koko fan eh? Or does Koko have a doppelganger like Simian did? Koko isn't welcome here so let's hope not.

The real export is porn...or girls...or both.

So Whisper...DO the Babylonians make movies? Read Dave's book- he saw one of the places Freddy works.

Not sure why Paul would lie about meeting and talking to Natalee at exactly 20:14 unless he was part of the pimps plan what they did with Natalee that night.

(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/279/casino1cn5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1246/casino2lj6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3850/naypvdscasinoat4.jpg)[/URL]

where is the Persistance, are they doing ok?  Are they going to make it to Aruba tomorrow as planned?  Is the one guy still updating their website - I lost the link.

Here is some info on him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Archer

I've never made up my mind about that Anna. Scratches were said to have been seen on Joran the next day or the day after that, but in Paulus's statement, he couldn't make up his mind whether Joran had gone to school or not, rode the bus or he took him or he rode with a friend, etc. That's way too unbelievable to swallow. They had been confronted by police in the wee hours of the morning and accused of kidnapping. Nobody forgets the events of the day before or after that under those circumstances.

Tacky's Rosemary said he took an exam the next day and made an A when exams were not scheduled for that week. This I do believe: Anita could easily arrange record of his attendance whether he was there or not.

Tropical storm OLGA is giving them some problems now and their expected arrival is Saturday.

I am very behind.  My writing in blue.

Dave's book is hard to look stuff up in; I've run into it before. There isn't anything under "Freddy" in the index. Help me remember Freddy's last name and I'll see if it's listed?

Got it Lala's. I'll post it

Freddy Zedan Arambatzis

I sometimes wonder if Sander gave this statement because they know it was Koen on the boat and they want Sander to come forward and say it was him who took the boat out to cover for his brother.  They are trying to confuse whoever witnessed Koen on the boat that night.

We couldn't find much Frank.  A recent Wiki bio and that's about all.  I couldn't locate any info on New York Forensics, Inc., in Fishkill, New York, where he is reportedly the Chief forensic examiner.  Also reportedly an Investigator in the Dutchess County Medical Examiner's Office.

Someone posted that they located Dutchess County records indicating he had judgments against him as a result of recent lawsuits by families of deceased individuals.

Wow, his wiki has been updated several times in the last few days to include the BS about his recent trip to Aruba and slamming the prosecution.  Now he is a noted forensic photographer as well.

pg.52/Aruba

(The motel next to the VIP club)

We also heard that this might be the place where a friend of Joran's, Freddy Alexander Zedan-Arambatzis, was alleged to have taken lewd pictures of a minor girl. He has denied the charge, but his lawyer says he admits he was present when photos of the girl in "tempting poses" were taken.

Well, Freddy's brother, Ernesto "the fabulous" Arambatzis speaks fluent english as evidenced by his many interviews to newspapers while he was the party meister of South Beach.


Too bad he and Freddy can't communicate except in Papi. :)

Good Night Monkeys.

Christmas shopping today ... Christmas program at grandkids school  tonight ... busy ... busy ... busy ...

PRAYERS FOR NATALEE'S FAMILY!!

Janet

6:00 pm

AZLady found information that he was a failed undertaker and funeral home
operator who had been sued twice......aside from the recent 35,000 judgement.  Once for around 26,000 and once for around1,600.

How could Freddy be a bartender at the Marriot and only speak Papi?

Ernesto:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/ernesto-alicia200.jpg)

Holloway Case Could Be Closed(Interview with JQK)

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3597392n

 :thumleft: :smt045

Yes, with primary concern for the victim and her mother instead of the suspects and their attorneys.

Might be interesting to review what Dave had to say about Freddy's arrest: Pg. 139:

On August 26, the FBI called to inform us that the Kalpoe brothers had been arrested again along with Joran's friend Freddy Alexander Zedan-Arambatzis, twenty one, who was brought in for suspicion of another crime unrelated to Natalee. He had a website on which he called himself "Locoman Pimp." He was accused of taking photos of a minor female in "tempting poses" and showing them to other people. He was further suspected of having unspecified "physical contact" with the girl. The Kalpoe brothers and Joran were also considered suspects in the incident, which had occurred prior to Natalee's disappearance.

What happened to that case?  Let me guess....not enough evidence to prosecute.

Right Anna.  I will never ever say a kind word about the Sloot family (they are evil), Kalpoes, Joe Tacopina, a sewer called Julia Renfro and anyone else in Aruba.  Aruba made their bed now they can lie in it.

If Dave says, I haven't found it yet. Hurricane Katrina hits shortly after the arrests and I think everyone was released.

Jossy did comment about the arrests, however, saying that Freddy lives very near Joran, and that they were all friends and all called themselves "Pimps" and preyed on young girls together.

True advocates for victim's rights here at SM.   :smt045

I've only got one fault with the Monkeys and its that damn cook book. I have now gained 30 lbs since we got our copy::)))))))))

Is Dave saying Freddy worked there?  What was the name of this hotel? Anyone? TIA

Thanks CBB. I appreciate it...hope you feel better. Make your evil twin fix you some tea.

What are the odds of someone who just happens to look just like Paulus, dress like Paulus, have a watch like Paulus, slump like Paulus parking their keester beside Natalee the night she disappeared?

And yet Joran expects us to believe that crap.  No wonder he is such a bad poker player.  He has no concept of the laws of probability.

.

*******,

What a sobering interview. Geez, he is so understated. No mention of corruption or coverup?

This remains a fascinating and important story and Greta and Tacopina are succeeding in making is a farce.

Yes it still is fascinating and important.  Beth and Dave remain so quiet and watchful.  I guess they are finding out who is truly in their corner and who is a ratings whore.  I hope they never give Gertie another interview.

The fix was done within the first 48 hours.  Everything since then has been PR spin machine.  Massive effort with professionals guiding their every move.  No wonder they don't have any money, they spent it all of crap like this.

If they have those choller houses to keep the druggies away from the tourists, it is no wonder they would do some elaborate spin on all this.

But I do believe it was government orchestrated.  And the decoys hit the streets by Tuesday after Natalee disappeared.  Think about the change that came over some of the players like Paulus.  He knew help was on the way all the way from The Hague. 

Just like Beth, we never stood a chance at getting the truth with fifty stories for every question we asked.  Bamboozling us from the get go. All of them.  Otherwise, they remained silent.

.

Lala's, Dave doesn't say, but it's where he met the "Psychic Buddhist", at the VIP club. Is this the Lion's Den? Wait and I'll post the description.

Pg. 52/Aruba

On a later trip to Aruba, I told Detectives Eric Soemers and Dennis Jacobs about the Buddhist my sister and I had met at the VIP Club. I was told it was a whorehouse where you pay by the hour. I did not know if that meant you bring your own girl or they furnish one.
The motel has a small like structure at the front. Then, there are six or seven rooms that stretch down the roadway. There were no vehicles there during daylight, but we heard that some young girls were escorted in and out of the rooms that day. We had also heard that someone had arrived that day with some sophisticated camera equipment.

Again, that 48 hours and the game was on.  Nothing after that time was the truth about anything.

This is the most disheartening interview yet.

MO

.

It's all very depressing :( He needs to find another word to use besides botched. Americans will be thinking that there were stupid mistakes made instead of intentional ones made by Paul's friends.

Not just Paulus friends but world class PR firms from California to Amsterdam.

No I can't prove it but that's what I think and that's what I know.

.

Of course you know this reminds me of a Shango verse?  :roll: Thanks again. So we do not know if this hotel has a name?  hmmmmm  :roll:

Yes, it is: I went back and looked up the encounter with the Buddhist
Pg. 50
It was located on the highway, and it looked like a sleazy strip club. The windows were blackened, and there was only limited parking out front. It was connected to an Indian or Chinese Restaurant, and there was a seedy looking motel next door separated by a narrow road.

Posted by Victor (Lazlo) at Scrux:

Victor



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 43

 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Missing person's cases never get closed.  
 

Klaas? There used to be an extensive website about the Lion's Den, but it's long gone for me with my computer crash. I think you have a picture of the entrance though, don't you? The restaurant shows up pretty well.

San needs to work on that and change Closed to SOLVED.

How about that girl they found with looking for Natalee, a submerged car, etc.  Guess they were still looking for her, too, huh?

JQKelly has broken my heart I think.

.

Remember those pictures posted here by Best Buddy and Ringo
I think it was an Indian Resturant.

I have seen those CBB..they are not in this computer I have now...Darn it!

Apparently, they have been drugging and raping and filming the tourists and locals forever and nobody cares there.  See the case of the 16 yo girl gang-raped at SCHOOL and all participants send photos via their phones and nothing.

Also remember that article on front page of Jossy's paper about elders having sex with minors in hotels that was likely filmed as well.  It's on GetaGrip's website still.

Again, instead of the massive arrests, nothing.

This kind of thing along with the trick of drugging tourists and taking them to the choller houses until they get all the money out of their accounts via ATM's is also a big nothing.

I think this is what Jug said would shock the world, that this is rampant and goes unpunished and everybody just looks the other way, too bad, so sad for the victims.  Survival of the fittest with the goons in charge, law of the jungle.

They are like some kind of primitive tribe down there.  Us against outsiders no matter what and we do as we please with the powerful doing any and everything to anybody and no one to stop them.

MO

.

I have never read more beautiful words then "It's all for the family". That's very rare in this case it seems, and those words are music to our ears! Thank you Ocean.
Thank you all, that can't be said enough. Bless each and every one of you who are making this possible. Be safe, and our prayers are with you for your safety and success.

I have something to ask you Ocean that might seem silly and make some of the Monkeys grin  but I have never been out on the ocean although I love to visit the coast whenever I can, I love the ocean. Is it just in the movies or do you really see things like dolphins swimming along side sometimes, and whales or the really huge sharks? (it's ok to laugh  :lol: :lol: but I just figured this was my chance to ask someone in the know if those things really DO happen!) Yes, Im a country bumpkin  :P  :silent:

Gabby,

That's a very nice question and no one will laugh at you!  If they do, Klaas can remove it and I will punch them for you.

LOL!

Joran's school mates who used to post here and at RWV said he went to school, had scratches and a teacher took a picture of him with the scratches, said he slept off and on all day.  Further said the teacher was no longer teaching there when we asked about the pictures.  She had gone to BF Egypt or EThiopia or some desolate location.   There was one test scheduled that day and Joran took it and failed it, an English AP exam.  He scored 2/5 which equals 40.

I was thinking today about what if there is no fish trap involved and that was all just another bunchacrap and we have only a body bag with weights and tape and such.

I think that would be harder to find.  Hope the fish trap was used but wonder if Paulus could get one quickly enough.  The trap is the best bet for holding the remains together at all.

So I do hope one was used but was thinking about the what ifs.  Bad thing to do in a bummer mood and snit about Mos.

.

.

Big money, like only the evil ones collect for their political disasters.

there is a VIDEO of paulus entering the casino...

somewhere..there must be

its HIM

simple theory...

jk2 + nh leave cnc headed for a drive... drive takes them by the lighthouse at the northern end of the island...something bad happens here at the rocks...drive by sloot house, in panic...paulus gets involved...others, through paulus and j2k, get involved...multiple vehicles + multiple persons (not 10 - maybe 3-5) involved in early hours...setting up alibis begins...evidence cleaning begins(cars,shoes,apartment)...temporary body disposal site...next day...setting up alibis continue...evidence cleaning continues...final disposal plan is arranged...final disposal plan is executed...paulus judiciary connections are contacted and utilized throughout.

does this theory work ??

was body cremated / incinerated OR disposed at sea?

i bet the dealer can remember the STENCH of when paulus sat down at the table

it is PAULUS

Yes, Tyler, one kid called Joran the kid with the bruise, very early.  Said they threw spitballs at him or what we would call that, they said paper from notebooks.

They used to communicate with us, some of his classmates but as word got out, that all stopped.

And the teacher went to Ethiopia where Hannie C went and also I think the headmaster for the summer after school was out.

Some sort of connection to that place via the Dutch but headmaster was expat American so don't know what it means if anything.

But he was there at least part of the day according to classmates and one teacher gave a PV and headmaster said late and Paulus brought him.  Then they all clammed up and later no one knew if he was even there or not because they had to make what he said at school that day go away.

.

Yes, I have is somewhere, hold on

i still think the DUTCH are going to get them

but it wont BE MOS

it will be someone else that LEAKS out information... might take awhile
but someone there must be human

I knew she would....... she's our Klaas!  :cool:

I think DeVries is human, Robots, and yes, someone else there must be as well.

Sander already had the boat in the water.  Paulus knew where Anita's cousin kept the key.  Didn't need anybody else.

MO

SOMEWHERE in my posts is the link to the Lion's Den website that a couple of guys did extensive research on with lots of pictures.

IF, Big IF, Natalee was disposed of at sea, I think Paulus took the Gottenbos boat and did it himself with maybe Joran on Monday.

But I have also thought that Paulus and Joran dumped the remains in the Spanish Lagoon on the way to school the next morning soon as the two younger brothers left.

And I think this is what we are supposed to think, total confusion as this could have happened or that could have happened, all plausible and some sort of clues leaked to make one think that.

It's like Murder on the Orient Express, too many clues for the crime which is all too common these days. 

It doesn't just happen in Aruba but here as well now, this drugging and filming trash and posting on internet, etc.  I think that's what they had in mind but Joran being so stupid killed her before they could complete their plans.

Very common in the EU as well and drugs in Aruba are like water and likely cheaper. 

paulus may need to see a doctor for his sleepwalking.

on the night in question, i can tell you with certainty that i went to sleep with my ATM card and, while still sleeping, drove my car to the bank and made several withdrawls from my account.

the lady, who works at the bank, that can verify my sleepwalking habits, has unfortunately commited suicide by hanging.

Indo Restaurant

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/IndioRest.jpg)

Lions Den Driveway

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/LDDriveway.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/LDDriveway2.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/LDDrivewayCar.jpg)

Lions Den Entrance

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/LDEntrance.jpg)

VIP next to Indo

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/vipindo.jpg)

VIP

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/vip1.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/vip2.jpg)

Pair-O-Dice

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/PairoDice.jpg)

Thank you Klaas! Yes, there's the VIP Club, and the restaurant!

Claussen Investigations, sometimes Project 112 but I thought they took all that down, could be wrong.

Hotshots website might have a link still.

.

Anna, it is possible they put Natalee on the boat that night and then figured out
what to do the next day..

pretty neat how the arubans can declare paulus to no longer be a suspect in NH disappearance while the case was still ongoing...

dennis jacobs and jan van der straaten were probably presiding that day over the courts. jacobs took the case, while eating his breakfast of choice - frosted flakes. boeti was the stenographer.

Aruba and its officials probably spent more time blocking the investigation / monitoring the family's whereabouts / examining their every move then investigating the crime and its perpetrators.

They (ALE) all knew what happened within 2-3 days.

It was like the Hollway / Twitty family was a gerbil inside of a maze trying to reach a piece of cheese. After a while, when the gerbil finally reached the cheese, after long painstaking strides, the ALE (on the outside of the cage) would lift them by the tail and place them back at 'START.'

The family had no idea what they were up against initially.  They assumed the legal system to operate somewhat congruent to that of the USA.  It took a while to figure out that everyhting was not above board and, by that point, it may have been too late.  WOW - the thought of people inserted into the picture to intentionally misguide the family, steering them in the wrong direction, give them poor advice, distracting them on one part of the island to prevent them from seeing the truth on the opposite end of the island. CRUEL. The family was so disadvantaged from the onset - they didn't stand a chance.

Or in the shed at the Sloots or buried her by the FH, or in the spot Tim Miller found or on and on, Robots.

Way too many clues were cranked out and fabricated very early.  Too many paths to take to make it  impossible to find out what really happened.

What was Deepak up to with his car at the Sloots right before Beth arrived? 

Can Sander drive the boat around by himself and is he allowed to do that?  If not, there had to be an adult involved and they protect the adults like anything.

.

Or they would move the cheese and put up a wall so the family couldn't even find their way back to the start, but that's a very good analogy in my opinion.  Think of all the fake sightings and ALE actually hauling the family out in the middle of the night to see a forty year old woman with dark hair, things like that.  What purpose did doing cruel things like that serve other than to torment the family?

.

any other ideas for solution to the finding out the reaql truth??

take money raised for natalee holloway fund. accumulate until it reached a target dollar amount.

someone, behind the scenes, broker a deal with (for example) Dompig. if he wrote a tell-all book, revealing everything he knows about the investigation, i bet it could have potential to reach best seller status.

money may have to flex its muscle as a parallel to other means in extracting the whole truth regarding events dating back to May2005 through present.

food for thought.......

What are you talking about? :shock:

Shango Says:
June 27th, 2005 at 10:37 pm
The DiceMen must be questioned.
They to go to the Music and enter the same Maze

Shango Says:
June 27th, 2005 at 10:31 pm
Mary never heard the buoy toll
ask the men who play dice and “roll”

dice= a boat named 'pair a dice' as shown a few pages back ???

No, they just get pushed to the back of the filing cabinet and no resources are allocated to working on them in Aruba by the Arubans.
Did the KLPD make a report / What did they recommend ? / Is that report public ? Can it be seen by the family ?

since case may be closed soon... how can one find the real truth as to the events that took place that fateful evening. certainly, a corrupt investigator would know. i suggest using NH fund money and broker a tell-all, immunity guaranteed, type of deal where the money and relocation would outweigh the evil money and threats to not do a good job of investigating at the time. dompig was just used for example.

Natalee Holloway: Case closed?
"Prime News" finds out if a lack of evidence means the Natalee Holloway case has hit a dead end.

http://tinyurl.com/27j6fs

To satisfy my own curiosity, I searched for Sea Pro 200 series, as far back as mfg. date 1999, and from waht I can tell, they are equipped with GPS.   Maybe it wouldn't be that hard to determine if Gottenbos boat went out that evening or in the following days, and if so, where it went.

That is, if anyone was interested.

Could this be why Mos was brought in to announce he was certain Natalee was dead?     This new investigation gives them the excuse to close the case, by pushing it to the back burner, instead of officially closing it.  They don't have to turn over any information to Natalee's family and they begin the New Year as if the last 2 and a half years never happened.

jacobs must be pretty experienced to make such 'on the spot' decisions about such potentially important evidence in such a high-profile case.

sample conversations...

investigator: i think we found blood in one of the prime suspects car.
jacobs: nah, to me, it looks like a hershey chocolate bar. since deepak cares about the tidiness of his car so much, maybe we should let him know so he can have it cleaned. if it doesn't come out, we can suggest an automotive body shop that can just swap out his car seats for new.

investigator: this looks like a possible gravesite, with frsh dirt, that could have been used to temporarily dispose of the body
jacobs: nah, but it sure could could be dangerous to tourists. we would not want them to fall in. hand me a shovel - this needs to be filled in right away.

investigator: here is a belt, which looks similar to one that joran owns. i found it at the lighthouse area, where the boys suggested they took natalee.
jacobs: nah, let me see that - what size is it? that may fit my nephew. let me take it home for him.

investigator: there may be evidence of a crime at the rocks, near the lighthouse.
jacobs: nah, those damn rocks. lets send a painting crew. they need to be painted to let tourists know they are there. we do not want any more traffic accidents. i realize they are way off the beating path... lets just paint half of each rock. that should do it...

another observation...

remember way back when...

lots of searches were cancelled and/or postponed due to lack of permits.

maybe new legislation came about recently b/c joran's american legal helpers sure did get their permits rather quickly in order to assist him.

The bathtub, what the maid saw, the reason they would not allow the house to be inspected, only Joran's apartment.  She was taken to the house for Paulus' pleasure, probably killed there.  I cannot forget the bathtub picture of Natalee with blood posted by Val, Inc.

Awwww Anna, Ty for offering your punch! I have now and again found myself in positions where I needed a defender :silent: But I know Im in good company with the Monkeys!  :smt052
I have wondered for years about the dolphins and whales, and figured here was my chance so I might as well take it!   :D

Whoa here!
All these years I have been reading.... must have missed this.

Paulus knew where Anita's cousin kept the key.  So Anita is the cousin of Sander? or Koen or ??

I get mixed up when it comes to relatives.. is it on Anita's mom or dad side who would be related to the mom or dad of Sander??

More info please? TIA

At the end of August, 2005 ... "new" evidence warranted the rearresto of Deepak and Satish Kalpoe at the end of August, 2005 in regards tothe Natalee Holloway case.  Freddie was detain at the same time.  However ... it was claimed that Freddy was arrested on suspicions which were unrelated to the Natalee Holloway case.  Nevertheless ... Freddy was released along with Joran, Deepak, Satish and Freddy less than a week later.

Janet

+++++++++++

Diana Emerencia - Freddy's attorney
Decatur Daily News
August 31, 2005

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050831/aruba.shtml
ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) — ...... A third man was arrested with the Kalpoes but his lawyer said Monday that it was unrelated to Holloway's disappearance.

Freddy Alexander Zedan-Arambatzis, a friend of van der Sloot and the Kalpoes, was arrested on suspicion of having unspecified "physical contact" with a female minor, said his lawyer, Diana Emerencia.

Zedan-Arambatzis, 21, is also suspected of photographing the girl in "tempting poses" and showing the images to other people, Emerencia said.

The Kalpoe brothers and van der Sloot are also suspected of involvement in the incidents, which allegedly occurred before Holloway disappeared, she said.  

Emerencia said Zedan-Arambatzis has denied having any physical contact with the girl or taking photos of her, but has admitted to being present when the photos were taken.

The prosecutor's office declined to comment on the case.


Beth Twitty
NANCY GRACE
August 29, 2005

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: Well, Nancy, I would imagine that it means that they`ve gathered new evidence to warrant this re-arrest of the Kalpoe brothers. And there`s no way you`re going to convince me that Freddy`s arrest is a coincidence. You know, I`ve seen his name surface throughout my documentation that I`ve been keeping since as early as June 15th, so.

 :lol:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/iliketoN0KTEM/hggghghhgfff.png

I it the Marriot that just sold, and Oduber is waiting for the Dutch to give Aruba the money?

I keep thinking about the Marriot "ping", follow the money, and dice men-casino owners?

There is something big being covered up here.  Everyone is too afraid of being killed.  Look at the local tv lady, then the cameraman "commiting suicide" after DeVries was down there looking around.  

I swear my whole sentence didn't come out on that post.  It should have said "comitted suicide".  I am not drunk, honest.  And I hate to use spell check LOL :roll:

WTH?  I am losing my mind.  First time I looked at my post, it was not complete.  Then I looked again after posting again, and it is fine.  Okay, back away from the computer.   Everyone say good night to sirensong.   :roll:  Pretend she wasn't here.

I have always said the final disposal (sorry :sad:) was not the early morning hours she vanished...but the night after.

Thank You...Tamikosmom

Read yesterday in my travels that Koen's boat was docked that night. Somewhere convenient, don't recall exactly where. Would make sense then about Paulus and the key.

Yep....we all have gone over that 20 times with a fine tooth comb.

LOL..now that is just WRONG....LMAO!

Yes indeed, siren...yes indeed. It is huge.

love the sarcasm !!!

this situation could get worse...

imagine if jk2 seek more ways to profit from this case...

deceased daughter - perpetrators become millionaires
how mad will that make everyone, especially the family?

Lala's....amateur here and a bad one at that!

Just had a look at the big picture on the Discovery Log timeline and started rereading the Shango/Simian thread from the beginning:shock:

Will get back to you......

Good Morning NYC!!

Good Morning Everyone!!

Not good. Aruba is essentially holding Natalee hostage. Asking us to believe she's dead but not telling us how they know this.

Leaking misinformation regarding the b.s. overdose etc.

Aruba is responsible for kidnapping Natalee and continuing to hold her hostage. I am furious at our own government. Jean Akers, Spencer Bacchus etc.

All of this to protect joran? I don't think so. This is about Paulus. And not just about Paulus protecting his son, there is someone higher up directly involved.

Dana and even JQK keep saying there were mistakes, or bungling. No Way.

They unsolved this crime. Nobody screwed up.

You're right Frank.  This should have been a solved case with Natalee returned to her family within 72 hours.  It was a solved case.  There's no mistake about it. JQK needs to start saying it for what it was/is.  Corruption.  No mistake.
I'll never forgive them.

When it is considered that once the case has been closed ... upon request from Natalee's family ... steps can be initiated by the American administration in regards to investigating the corrupt Aruban investigation which  has denied Natalee Holloway justice ... is it possible that Aruban will not closed the Natalee Holloway case?  Will Aruban allow it to become a cold case?  The implication ... the eighteen year old American citizen who did not return home from Aruban will become a distance memory.

Janet

+++++++++++++++++


http://www.internationalextradition.com/netherlands_bi.htm
When the FBI Seeks Extradition
BILATERAL EXTRADITION TREATIES
NETHERLANDS


Art Wood
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 2, 2005

ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Absolutely. Absolutely.  There's a lot that Americans can do through the State Department. I want to remind everybody that Natalee Holloway was a U.S. citizen. Once the Aruban authorities are done investigating this case, the FBI can still conduct an investigation, and they could extradite these suspects to the United States. Let me point out that there's a ton of circumstantial evidence in this case to convict these kids.

You would think that with an American family in crisis on Aruba, the US Consulate's office would be providing assistance, or at least some measure of comfort, to the AMERICAN family; aid in communication, translation, understanding the system, etc. 

Why would Jean Akers, US Vice Consul, be at the Sloot's celebrating Joran's release from detention in 2005?

I agree.  This is all about Paulus and his gang.

Enough of this crap!!  :2doh:

Where is the "A" team when you need them :-|

This is Mos -----------> :silent:

Paulus...Time for a diaper change... I THINK U B da 1!!! I THINK u did it!!!  Joran is covering for you, right sweaty dude?  You picked her out at the casino based on Joran's recommend...right?  Then Joran delivered her right to your doorstep while wifey and kids were away, right?  Did you have all your big wig buddies there 2?  Was it one of those "gang" thingys?  You know, like a tag team?  A team thing?  And when she unexpectely woke up what did you do? 

No wonder your buddies on the bench keep letting Joran and his friends go -- They know the truth, right?  Or were any of them there with you too? 

I say send Robots after him... I bet the truth will come in after only a few hours and several buckets of sweat, right?

snoopy and Frank

Think about the implications regarding Phil McGraw's words regarding Deepak and Satish ... those words have come back to haunt him in a defamation lawsuit ... a lawsuit that I believe may just stand a chance of succeeding once the Deepak and Satish are declared no longer suspects.

I am wondering if there are legalities behind the reason that John Q. Kelly implies that "mistakes" were made in the Aruban investigation rather than saying it how it is.  There was a time when Kelly did not stop and consider his words in regards to what he perceived as a coverup.

Just the musings of Tamikosmom.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++

John Q. Kelly
DR. PHIL
January 29, 2006

We're not going to sit here and say, 'Mr. Cohen's a nice guy. He told us some nice things. Aruba's a nice country.' No! Their daughter's missing. We don't have answers. The answers are down there. They have the resources, they have the men, they have the answers, they've got the suspects, it's all down there for them to solve this, and they're not doing it. We need that done.


John Q. Kelly
DR. PHIL
January 29, 2006

Apparently there was one statement Joran had made as early as June 13th, in the evening as a matter of fact, where he indicated that he had been down at the Fisherman's Hut on the beach, one of the locations that kept coming up, indicated he had been there with Natalee, left, that Deepak Kalpoe, one of the brothers, had returned and that he thought or knew that Deepak had raped Natalee and buried her nearby. And the report indicates they had taken Joran back down there on June 13th to search that area. That's something, depending on who you talk to, the officials say that statement was never made, never occurred, or that it's just not credible.

oh and btw...

I was told awhile back that casino surveillance consists of much more than the videos and the watchful eyes of the pit bosses -- but also AUDIO to go along with the video...

Assuming that this is a true practice... wouldn't you love to know what Paulus was suggesting to Nat when you see her in the video recoil and move away from him at the table? :shock:

Food for Thought :cool:

The threat of a lawsuit is over-hyped and won't happen.

What about Rosalie saying Beth is doing it for the money?

Or saying she O'd without proof, it works both ways.

Slander is nearly impossible to prove. All these players are now "public figures."

Lying is not slander.

Someone has to show me how the Kalpoes have been slandered? What Deepak can't get that barrista job at Starbucks because of Dr. Phil?

It's another attempt at intimidation.

There's less chance the Kalpoe's will win than there is in Aruba prosecuting the 3.

And what happens down the road if the kalpoe's are found to be guilty of crimes after an unlikely award?

The case will never be closed.

Does anyone have a picture of Jean Akers in Aruba? I have one of her in Asia but do you see her in any of the Joran release press conference? The first one?

I believe that this case needs to be looked at in a "backwards" way.  Instead of focusing on the three little punks and their friends and what happened that night, we need to look at this from the top down. 

Let's look at the Big wheels, make the connections between them, and the lil' punks will shake out in the end. 

Maybe Jossy can help us with the connections.  As we have always wondered, why was a narcotics detective running this case of a missing person?  Good beginning.

Frank that post of mine the other day that you quoted, is I believe the first mention of MS JA. Beth's book did not give a name and I had to go and find it out. She was the only VC at the time that was a female and the only pics I found were from the same interview that you have.

I agree.  BIG attention needs to be brought to the cover up.  That is the part that I think the people still going to Aruba don't get.  How dangerous it really is behind the facade.  I wonder why Jossy is the only one who can say the truth about this case, because he has the money and voice to keep the evil ones off of him?  And I missed it if it was mentioned, but what ever happened to Luis Mansur?  Is there even a trial pending?  Jean Ackers should hang her head in shame.  She needs to be replaced with someone who won't sleep with the enemy.

Be pretty hard pressed to find someone who won't sleep with the enemy in Aruba...They pass each other around down there like salt at the dinner table.

mum,
I contacted Jean Akers in Cambodia, left a voice message and an email. She responded asking if she could help.

I asked her to confirm or deny the passage in Beth's book, twice, but haven't heard back from her.

http://www.kroooz-cams.com/caribbeanindex.html

Heli at RU seems to think this is The Persistence in Grand Caymen

OceanEx....is this our boat?

It's about the coverup, more than the crime.

Paulus implicated almost everyone in the first 10 days. Now the truth about how they worked against Natalee would doom them in their lust for power.

That's the political part. Paulus is not a player, has no power, has no information other than those that helped him and Joran.

Tacopina is being paid by those that want Oduber's party to stay in power for their own purposes. They could care less about the van der sloots, or Natalee.

The Clintons have an army of "defenders" not because they believe in the Clinton's but because the Clinton's will help them with their power.

Oduber's comment that "mistakes were made" is very true, very telling and a confession of his own.

That's laughable!!! Of course that isn't the Persistence.  If it were true, it wouldn't be posted where it was.  Please consider the source.  Second, that is some random small crew boat.  It looks nothing like the Persistence.  Nevermind the fact that the Persistence was never within a hundred miles of that location.

Any comments from Debbie or Robin on how sorrowful either is regarding the outcome of this? 

Debbie seemed pretty optimistic when Dave was coming home, not one word of dismay or unhappiness in her comments regards Dave's visit to Aruba, perhaps pleasure at the fact that he was able to see Julia Renfro and Mark Purcell.  What's with that?

Hello everyone.  I'm done with finals and turned in my grades! hooray!  I'm on Christmas break!

I found an interesting couple of things while researching the newest face in Taco's gang.  Here's my path so you can all follow my research.

I started with this recent and really ridiculous wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Archer.  You all know how I hate wikipedia and find it totally unreliable.  It did, however, give me a few leads to research this new name. 

I started with the Dutchess County, NY, County Clerk's Document Search at http://www.co.dutchess.ny.us/CountyGov/Departments/CountyClerk/12976.htm
Very interesting finds.  I found documents there that reference Michael Archer dating back to 1999.  I can't get enough info from these documents to know details, but here is what I could ascertain.  You can look at them yourself at the above link.
*(1999) Reference to a pistol permit application ,
*(1999) Judgment against Hignell & Phelps Funeral Parlor Inc 10 Willow St Beacon Ny 12508 and Michael Archer (same address) for $24,690.77.  Plaintiff is Pine Vanderlyn.  He owns a company called American Funeral Consultants who provide services to funeral homes.
* (1999) Judgment against Archer Michael L C/O Highnell Phelps Funeral 10 Willow St
Beacon Ny 12508 for $1,615.00.  Plaintiff is Robinson Anny S 69 Teller Ave Beacon Ny 12508
* (2005) mortgage and deeds filed for Donna Bamond Archer and Michael Archer in town of Fishkill, NY.
* (2007) Judgement against Archer Michael E Po Box 28 Fishkill Ny for $35,199.75.  Plaintiff is Hudson Valley Fcu. There are some minute orders that name co-defendents ARCHER MICHAEL E LP 04/13/2007 2:38PM 105 2115 04/16/2007
D PINE VANDERLYN R LP 04/13/2007 2:38PM 105 2115 04/16/2007
D ROBINSON ANNY S LP 04/13/2007 2:38PM 105 2115 04/16/2007
D COMMONS AT FISHKILL LP 04/13/2007 2:38PM 105 2115 04/16/2007
D DOES JOHN LP 04/13/2007 2:38PM 105 2115 04/16/2007
D DOES JANE

I researched Michael Archer and can find no other mention of him as a forensic scientist.  If he is a photographer, as listed in the wikipedia entry, I can find no mention of him as a photographer, either.

When looking at the picture of him, he looked Aruban to me, or at least Caribbean.  I found a listing for a Mr. Michael Archer (Director) Office of Public Sector Reform in Barbados!  Address is: 20-23 Roebuck Plaza, Roebuck Street, B'town.  Link is http://www.barbados.gov.bb/contactus.htm .  This is probably no connection, but I found it interesting.

Frank Thanks...I would be surprised if she were to reply! I know you'll post if she does!

I think that Beth has told a little of what she can in 'Loving Natalee'. There was a reason that paragraph was written other than to tell us about Scarface. I really need to read it again, with that in mind.

And I agree...it's not about J2Ks!

Good job AZLADY...I knew when I saw that wiki a while back that it was hogwash...then when I started searching and was hardpressed to find any connection to him as a forensic 'anything', I knew Joe T. was full of it. There wasn't much info on him at all and like you said...not a scientist, for sure. I HATE THEM ALL! Just lie after lie after lie. Pathetic excuses for human beings.

Nut, Taco is all about appearances.  I wouldn't put it past him to grab some guy he knows who needs the money, tell him what to say and do, and then take him to Aruba with him and introduce him around as a "forensic scientist."  When we Monkeys began to question who he was, someone created a wiki entry for him so we would find it.  Phony, phony, and more baloney.

The boat is on it's way. It's trying to avoid Olga.  I'm scheduled to fly Saturday.

Good find.  Is there someplace all this can be put with other important findings on this case.  At least, I think Beth needs it.  Not sure how much good it would do to send to Greta, JQK or Dave, but I think Beth might be interested in this, at least.

Still remembering all of you in my prayers.  Just ignore, Heli.  I think that should be two consonants ont he end of her name, not a consonant and a vowel.

Ocean, thank you for your work on behalf of Natalee's family.  These are really ignorant questions, but I know little about your work.  Do you and the crew have accurate mappings of the ocean floor around Aruba?  Does the underwater landscape shift and change much?  I would suppose it does, but don't know.

I used to think that there would someday be a TV movie about
the Natalee Holloway story, but this case is so convoluted that
it would have to be a series to even begin to touch the subject.

AZLady..
Check out the ship's blog I'm authoring.  The link is in my signature line.  It'll give info about the search.  Little is known about most areas subject to ocean exploration, given that about 1% of the ocean has been explored in detail.  This is no exception.  No telling what we'll find.  I don't care to speculate.

Magnolia.. they did make a TV series on the story... the show is called "LOST"
 HA!

Perhaps the writters of "LOST" used this case as inspiration.  Just think about it:

A group of people on an island..
-bad mysterious things happen
-you keep getting introduced to new characters
- new story lines along the way randomly open
- you find out that the characters are somehow mostly connected in some way.
- And in the end, nothing happens and none of the story lines are closed!  (Hopefully this is where the similarity will end). 

Very clever, Ocean!!
That is a good sign.
Any idea where Olga is heading?  It is hard to find info
on her.

I believe Olga is headed NW and will either hit Cuba or stay just north and then either into the Gulf or hit Florida.
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/sloop-wv.html (http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/sloop-wv.html)

Ocean, thanks.  I'll check out the blog.  I looked at it before you had info posted, but now that you've updated it, I need to revisit.  So, I gather you really are not sure what you'll find there.  That's going to be interesting.

In reference to what I posted previously, the Barbados Michael Archer is definitely not the one who was in Aruba.  I found a pic of the Barbados Archer--very different man.  I still think Taco's Archer is a NY crony he took along to pose as "forensic scientist."  To Taco, forensic means anyone he decides will be his "expert."  This Archer is not a lawyer nor is he a scientist.  So, I don't get why Taco calls him a "forensic scientist."  The guy was associated with a funeral home--is that what Taco means by science?

Thank you.
A hurricane in December...who would have guessed?

Since everyone has that ignore button but me, I will tread water and hope to stay informed and not ask mundane questions.

Hi Tyler.  I'm not ignoring you.  I just don't know anything!!   :lol:  What's up with Debbie, Robin, Dave...?

Exactly!

In my experience, a storm like this is rather uncommon but not extraordinary. Quite a while ago I conceded the search and timing into God's hands and His complete control. We'll see how things play out.

Taco probably got this guy to pose as a "forensic scientist" for just the cost of airfare.  Whoever is paying Taco's bills should double check what the "forensic scientist" did while on Aruba and how much he charged them.  Sounds like a scam to me.  And we all know Taco is all about the money...

Tylergal,

Never ignoring you!  Just trying to get some work done around here and it seems that is a losing battle some days.

I am wondering where this is heading with Mos blaming the DEA Agent and family for interfering plus the odd alliance with Robin and Dave and Purcell and Julia.

I hope this is not going to turn into some sort of Blame Beth scenario.  Don't know what to think of anything much any more but I do know that Scared Monkeys is far from any hate site no matter who claims that it is.

.

So true.  You know the Monkeys are praying for all of you and your success.  I did look at the blog, ocean, and it's very interesting.  I looked at the picture of the sonar scan with the old shipwreck and the tiny square that was a fish trap.  I don't know how you could tell what that tiny square was when I saw so many black dots that might have indicated something, too.

AZLady,

Could you email Dr Michael Baden with your concerns about his Archer and see if he has ever heard of him as being a forensic scientists and where those are registered?  He might have more information.  We need to be sure we have the right one and all that.

.

Mos' statements are very strange.  The only thing I can surmise is that someone got to him and he changed his attitude.  His statements went from positive to negative in the matter of a week or so.  I don't think just the release of J2K caused this change.  I've always thought there was government involvement in this from Rudy Croes and Nelson Oduber on down.  I think Mos was told he would not prosecute by his boss, Rudy Croes, who got his orders from Oduber. 
Why?
That's the $52 million question.  Personally, I think it has to do with who knows what about whom,and their involvement in the drug trade/money laundering business of the island.  It's not about Natalee anymore.  It's about maintaining Aruba's economic base--and I don't mean tourism.

That's a good idea, Anna.  Yes, I'll follow up on this.  I thought about emailing some of the other people and offices mentioned in the wikipedia entry, just because I really think most of it is fraudulent.  I'll do that.

There is also likely an association of morticians where he might be listed as well. 

Everybody's a scientist these days!  The character in the Di Vinci Code was a forensic anthropologist named Michale Archer as well, I believe.

Now he's also a famous forensic photographer as well!!!  This man's credentials are growing daily.  I think he is one of Tacos thugs but we need proof of that and I am not sure where we get it exactly.

Lack of listing is proof of a sort.

.

Hey where was Jean Akers?

from a front page post:



http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1153.html

Parents of young travelers should be aware that the legal drinking age of 18 is not always rigorously enforced in Aruba, so extra parental supervision may be appropriate. Young female travelers in particular are urged to take the same precautions they would when going out in the United States, e.g. to travel in pairs or in groups if they choose frequenting Aruba’s nightclubs and bars, and if they opt to consume alcohol, to do so responsibly.
Anyone who is a victim of a crime should make a report to Aruban police as well as report it immediately to the nearest U.S. consular office. Do not rely on hotel/restaurant/tour company management to make the report for you.

Does anyone know how long this has been on the website? I am curious is if was placed after Natalee’s disappearance?

Anna,

It will come, don't worry...

Dr. Baden's email is not easily found.  I've been looking but coming up empty handed.  Anyone know how I might email him?

Tyler,
They have all been quiet, except JQK conceeding defeat.  It is all too strange.

Ah, but I do worry, Frank.  Some things are just too strange to even contemplate.

But you are right, Truth will always out.

Eventually.

It's that eventually part that gives me pause at times.

.

If I find it, will post.  He used to have that HBO Series and so I thought he might have his own website.

.

Why are the RUFOBS stalking the search boat?  Since they only want the truth as well,  :roll: :roll: :roll: they need to give that a rest and leave things alone that are none of their business.

I remember the Aruban and Dutch reporters throwing things into that rock quarry to mess up the sonar equipment and bringing that search to a halt. 

Why didn't ALE put a stop to that kind of vandalism?  We all know the answer to that one.

.

BTW, the link and photo RU had posted about the Persistences location... was LAUGHABLE!  First, the boat didn't come within hundreds of miles of that location.  Second, it was clearly some small crew boat in the photo.. not the Persistence.  As for why they care about it's position.. I dont have a clue.  It's no ones business.  I don't care enough to comment to them. It's a waste of time.

The amount of nuts there probably makes Planters jealous.

I believe there is some grief which is keeping Beth very quiet and probably great disappointment with JQK.  I am just not sure about the elation at having seen Julia and Mark as it seemed to be a point which was being made by BFN.  Are Mark and Julia secret agents who are searching for the truth and am I in the Twilight Zone again?

I was thinking about the interview where Greta cornered Rep Spencer Bachus in a hallway after his meeting with the spokespersons from Aruba which included such brain trusts as Arlene and other AHATA shills.

His only word in response to Greta asking him what the Arubans were upset about was "Wiretaps" and he looked rather odd.

Now we have Mos saying that a DEA Agent was responsible for derailing the investigation.

Anyone think there is any connection in those two comments and if so, what it could be?

.

they're probably setting the stage to keep up with what areas perseverance will be searching.  there are people who know where natalee was dropped.  as long as they're not looking in the right spot, no harm, no danger to j2k.
dennisintn

I think that was just that Robin spouting off about Mark and Julia
For some reason, I feel that the family has been told to keep quiet.
Only JQK has spoken and it is like he is following a game plan.

Anna, I have always entertained the thoughts that "someone" was being watched/bugged and then Natalee had the misfortune to become mixed into it....I believe the wiretaps were being used and they also picked up what happened to Natalee in addition to whatever/whoever they had under surveilance.  Because of whoever they were/are investigated, alot (if not all) that they picked up cannot be used to pursue the perps.

Just an idea...

But Mos works for the Dutch as they "own and operate" the courts and prosecutors office

It was added AFTER Natalee.  Perhaps a 2006 update?  I remember when it changed.

The kickbacks from the drug trade/money laundering/gambling to Oduber, Rudy Croes, and others are huge.  Mos works for the Dutch, but when he is assigned to Aruba, he has to live under the Aruban political system.  And, if the Aruban political system does not want this case prosecuted, then they will strong arm Mos to shut down the prosecution.  If he really wants to prosecute this case, Mos needs to call in the big guns for help.  I don't think he will do that as he doesn't appear to have the backbone for it.  Unless this is going on behind the scenes, which is a possibility.

sounds like a confirmation to me

No....but I was wondering if maybe Dana may know someone who could contact him and ask about Archer...

That's a great idea.  I bet Dana would have contacts and resources we don't to trace Michael Archer's credentials.

Wasn't there mention early on in 2005 about there being a fire in one of the rooms at the Marriott brought here by one of the Aruban's?  Don't think we ever had that confirmed or researched whether that was a function room or a regular room but in my minds eye I think it was mentioned that it was one of the higher floors of the building, maybe the 7th?

Maybe Lala's remembers as it may have been tying in with the reference of the 7th inferno.

Frank

Archive from December 2004.  You can use wayback machine and get exact date of change.  Scroll down from "outine" to Aruba info.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050401094533/http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1153.html

there is no connection to any sort of truth in Mos's words.  Mos is a dolt, trying to deflect responsibility to make Aruba look less culpable.

I'd bet Joe T. was Archer's Lawyer in those court cases  :wink:

I had heard about rooms being "ripped apart" and redone at the HI about the time Beth arrived.  I also had heard about the Inferno, but seems to be mixing oranges and apples here, but the whole damn Aruba is a fruit and nut salad with criminal dressing.

A representative of our own State Department at a celebration of
the release of a suspect in the murder of an American tourist.....
talk about politically incorrect!!

Wait a minute!  I thought it was the Dutch, just the Dutch and only the Dutch doing this sort of thing.

You don't suppose that some who are supposed to be working FOR Americans really aren't or don't quite have their heart in it, now do you?

When we sent the information contained in the Murder and Crime Thread to some of these folks, their response was at best indifference.

I think MsMarple may have at least gotten a reply which is more than I received.  However, ever wonder why it is so hard to get even a travel advisory for Aruba?  How can you when the local reps of this country deny there is any problem at all.

So ponder just briefly a situation wherein there is no response or assistance from our own consulate.  Hard to believe, isn't it?

.

.

I think that PVDS had direct knowledge of major dirt that certain Aruban ministers and Govt officials were a part of. He spent many years working for the Govt,Prosecution office and even the 3 years as a Judge in training. When he says he would tell more but it would hurt too many people,he didnt mean the dirty cops and friends that helped early in the case. I think it was a direct threat about the wide scale corruption,murders,money laundering or whatever else he had knowledge of.  The truth about NH would expose everyone from the Chief of Police to the Minister of Justice. No doubt in my mind Rudy Croes and the Aruban Govt are up to there eyeballs in this to make sure the truth is never revealed but I still think PVDS was holding major dirt on people.

It's only speculation to say PVDS was in on premediated rape and murder but why would he lie and say he was at home when there is video of him being at the BJ table and talking to Natalee? After 8PM on a sunday night and he is drinking and gambling..Did he just learn that he failed and would never be a judge? Was it a night  to drink and be devious when Anita and the younger kids were away? Or does he feel responsible for letting Joran do anything he likes including drugging and preying on tourists and locals. Maybee that is why he lied about being at home at 8PM but I doubt it.

I think back to the two different people that PVDS told the story about Natalee hitting her head and drowning in very early June 2005. Amazing that this is never brought up when discussing the case on TV.  Not sure what happened but someone didn't want to cooperate like JAN VDS said. I think he was already in damage control and they were working on a it all being a accident. I think after the failed attempt to frame two innocent men they did try to work on a outcome. Not only was Natalee hard to recover but I don't think PVDS had any intention of his son or himself being behind bars for any reason. Since no resolution could be made between the guilty parties and the Aruban Govt they decided to Cover it up and never look back. Deny,Lie and blame the victim.

I just find it shocking that JQK hasn't demanded to know how they know Natalee is dead? Again, this is akin to holding her hostage.

How many aruban officials have said that and yet never been confronted to show the proof? I count at least 4 or 5.

Our governor did endorse and signal a boycott with a formal meeting with  Beth & Jug.  However, governors have a voice in international affairs, but a voice that is heard only statewide, so it is to no avail whatsoever that he did this, except that I admire him for having the fortitude to stand up and be counted.

Actually ... Hans Mos is justifying the former investigation and ... judges.  He is implying that the reason the suspects where released from detainment in the past was because the "new" evidence he has accumulated was not available.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++


http://sendtofriend.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3912737

Hans Mos
ABC NEWS
November 26, 2007

Hans Mos, Aruba's chief prosecutor, told ABC News he believes the the new evidence makes the case against the three men stronger than it was two years.

"We are convinced if we had had this evidence we have now they would not have been released by the court at that time," Mos said.

What about Spencer Bachus?  He made statements in the beginning
in support of the families....then after "the Aruban Delegation"
met with him, he has been silent.  What did they say to shut him up?

I thought this was one of the main reasons for meeting with Mos, to find out this information.  So I had thought that they did but were not discussing it for a reason.

But it could well be that this also falls into that category of nothing new being revealed meaning Mos did not share anything more in this regard after all.

And we were told it was new information that gave Mos this knowledge.  There have been several 180 degree turns during the course of this investigation.  Mos appears to be the latest one.  To know Natalee is dead, someone would have had to have physically seen her.  I can't think of another way this could happen.

And if they know she is dead for a fact, they have to know some other things besides just this one fact.

I think Paulus VDS was paying the Dutch back for him not becoming a judge.  He knows everything that goes on that island so he figure what better way than to pay them back but screw up their case.  And he did it big time.

Whoa,  I am trying to catch up here, but is Mos now out of Aruba?  If so, when did this happen?  thanks.

He said "Wiretaps" and this is what I was asking about earlier.  What does that mean.

Perhaps they are holding her hostage and the stoooopid Americans are not playing the game correctly.  Maybe they should agree to just accept whatever is left of Natalee and go away as Jug once offered to do. 

That may have worked two years ago but after all this time, it is about justice and treatment of an American citizen, not only Natalee now.  I wonder if Beth would have told them just give her back and I will go away and take my boycott with me things would have gone differently this time.

Could asking for justice be what caused Explosive to become nothing at all?  Withholding information after you say you have it is just as bad as withholding the physical remains, same thing.
.

.

I am about to send my Christmas cards out and I got a little rubber stampy thing made for them (after last week) that says, "Aruba, every mother's nightmare," which goes on the back flap.

I contend that Holland's desire to hold onto Aruba and keep the island from aligning itself with Chavez ... is just another conflict of interest that abounds in the Natalee Holloway case.  The implication is ... the "powers that be" in Holland will not undermine the corrupt Aruban investigation.

If Holland was serious in regards to her desire that justice for Natalee Holloway prevails ... in the initial stages of the Aruban investigation the "powers that be" would have strongly advised Aruba that the FBI or ... another international investigative agency should be called upon ... one whose members have no personal or professional relationship with Paulus van der Sloot.  I cannot comprehend how the Dutch and Arubans are allowed to investigate ... prosecute and ... judge their own.  What is the definition of "conflict of interest" under Dutch law?

Janet

+++++++++++++++++

Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE:  Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work.

you know, for the caliber of attorney that JQK is supposed to be, I'm sure not impressed. Not yet anyhow.

WTF has he done since comming on board? 

I give him credit for the subpeona delivered to Joran via Bo Dietle but other than that, what has he done? Is he just like Taco - in it for the publicity?  Ya think he is really doing anything quietly behind the scenes, waiting for Mos/Aruba to make their final move before he starts playing his cards?  Does he have any cards? I dont know, Beth seemed to hint that she might reveal some evidence in a second book, maybe they do have some moves left.  Hard to say.

I think I just had an entire conversation with myself here and didnt figure a damn thing out  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe the "existing" information which Hans Mos is referring to ... "existing" information which has been reexamined ... has a connection to the media release made by Rudy Croes' spokesperson on June 10, 2005 ... the media release that stated that the eighteen year old American citizen from Alabama was confirmed dead and ... the location of her body was known.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++


Spokesperson for Rudy Croes
FOX NEWS
June 11, 2005

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice told FOX News Natalee Holloway , who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/30/aruba.holloway/index.html

Hans Mos
CNN
November 30, 2007

Mos has told CNN he believes authorities have enough evidence to prove Holloway is dead, even if her body is never found. He has suggested her death was an accident.

The new evidence against the three men was gathered from advanced techniques used to re-examine existing information, including cell phone records and text messages exchanged the night Holloway disappeared, Mos has said.

I wonder who is updating the Wiki entries.  Maybe someone from the Hague?  IIRC, Princess Mabel and her husband were updating their entries in Wiki and got caught.

Maybe Anita is related to Mabel?  Or the Queen?

mum,
I contacted Jean Akers in Cambodia, left a voice message and an email. She responded asking if she could help.

I asked her to confirm or deny the passage in Beth's book, twice, but haven't heard back from her.
[/quote]

sounds like a confirmation to me
[/quote]

A representative of our own State Department at a celebration of
the release of a suspect in the murder of an American tourist.....
talk about politically incorrect!!
[/quote]


Very sick of her and she should be called out on it. I agree with Blah here, by not answering Frank's inquiry (she is a paid public servant of the US, they supposedly answer to the people who pay their salaries) she may as well have confirmed it.
[/quote]

maybe akers is asleep at the switch.  make your next inquiry to her former boss on aruba, and her boss in thailand.  if she's a friend of the sloot family, did she give recommendations and opinions to bacchus and maybe other politicians that followed the sloot line of "blame the victim".  does make you wonder, doesn't it?
dennisintn

O/T

I apologize for being off topic.  WhiskyGirl, would you like to use one of these avatars?

1.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/angel20and20bird.gif)

2.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/angel02.gif)

I been wondering about why the forensic scientist was looking for evidence.

Why would he expect to find evidence after over two years?  Why would he suggest that there is no evidence?  Maybe there never was evidence in the places he searched?   

If the places he looked two years plus after the fact, were not part of any crime scene, is it reasonable or logical to expect to find evidence that a crime had been committed?  Anyone else wonder about this?

Did he check the other places of interest?  The VDS compound?  The rocks?  The boat of Koen G.?  The Kalpoe yard?

Did he ask about the lies?  What are lies evidence of?

Wouldn't KLPD/ALE have taken any evidence?  Did he look where Joran reported leaving her?  Did he follow Joran's path at the beach?

What kind of evidence was this man looking for?  Anyone ask? 

Maybe he thought someone would leave a body lying around?   :shock:

I like number 2.  Thank you.

My guess is he either didn't look for anything at all, just was there and wanted to look like he did something.  Or, he wanted to make sure there WASN'T anything around that was missed that would implicate Joran or Paulus.

I found this piece on the internet about "Dutch Law In Action" - does this look familiar to anyone?

http://www.uu.nl/uupublish/content/dutchlawinaction2003.pdf

Thanks for the angel!   :D

the "forensic scientist" (cough, spit, sputter) walked around the house and yard so he would have talking points, and could unequivocably say that "given my status as forensic scientists, i can say that jvds is innocent and there is no evidence to prove otherwise".  then he drove the route given by one of jvds' lies and can now say with all assurance and authority of his office as "forensic scientist", that jvds couldn't possibly have harmed the little tourist girl in the time available to him that morning.  notice that he conveniently forgets to mention that nobody was allowed to look even over the fence at anything or jvds himself for l0 days after natalee's 'vanishment'.  the whole thing was for show and tell, aruba style.
dennisintn

I think he was just there as a bluff in case Mos had anything or the FBI Lab turned up anything they were using, then Taco could pad his resume and make him look as though the taught the FBI how to do pathology.  LOL.  Did he even think about AFIP?

Exactly, it was all BS

This should be posted again for those that havent seen it in a while.

Why can’t we find Natalee Holloway?
May 04, 2006

Recently the Dutch and Aruban press have turned very critical of the Aruban police investigation into the disappearance of Holloway, the first public signal that corruption might be the major obstacle to solving the case. Several Dutch criminal law experts have gone on the record calling the investigation methods “strange and unprofessional” and the investigation itself “total madness.”
At the center of controversy is Gerald Dompig, Aruba's Chief of Police. According to reports, an anonynous man in tears called Dompig with information about where the body of Holloway was buried. A month passed before authorities began the search, yet ealier Dompig spoke openly with the press about new clues. “This is very strange,” said legal psychologist Peter van Koppen. “Normally the area is closed off immediately, to dig and search for clues, but not in Aruba.”

Menno Dolman, a criminal law expert at the University of Amsterdam, was also baffled by Dompig’s slow response. “It is incomprehensible that police, after an important tip about the location of Natalee Holloway’s body, would not go search immediately.”
Regarding Dompig’s leaks about the investigation, University of Leiden’s criminal law expert Hans Nijboer comments: “Total madness. It is against all principles and illogical to bring forth information about the tips before starting the search. [First] competent investigators investigate the case.”

Dompig, who recently resigned his post as Aruba’s Police Chief under mysterious circumstances, is becoming the center of controversy over many odd details related to the case. For example, Joran Van der Sloot and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe were quickly identified as the last people to see Natalee Holloway alive the evening of May 30. However, Dompig waited over a week to gather evidence from the Van der Sloot home, as well as a variety of other sites on the island that might have harbored clues about Holloway’s disappearance. It is widely known that Dompig and Joran Van der Sloot’s father are friends.
There are dozens of other details about Holloway’s disappearance that remain a mystery. Why did Stephen Crooes (a DJ and local operator of a party boat) come forward early in the investigation to corroborate the first tale about the three boys having dropped Holloway off at the Holiday Inn, a story the three boys later admitted was a lie? Crooes now says “he was trying to help,” but what was his motivation to stick his nose into such a high profile investigation if he knew the details weren’t the truth? Was he a plant intended to throw the investigation off course, or was he just stupid?

Authorities remain tight-lipped about the fishing huts on the northwest corner of the island near the hotel where Holloway was staying. Shortly after Holloway disappeared, the fishing huts were vandalized and missing items included fishing cages and knives—equipment that could have been used to dispose of a body.

Forensic evidence taken from the Kalpoe’s vehicle that was later determined unusable was never recollected. Why?

There is a series of videotapes, now labeled “the Chicago tapes” (I have no idea why they are named that) that show island authorities in rental cars searching the northern dunes and painting rocks in areas where Holloway might have disappeared—activities that would obviously corrupt a crime scene. There is information about four boys seen carrying a shovel near the dump in the early morning hours of May 31, reports of suspicious automobiles near the Racquet Club, the fishing huts, and the dump during that evening, and information about a woman being attacked near the fishing huts eight days before Holloway disappeared. All those leads remain loose ends.

Following Dompig’s resignation, Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt was arrested on April 16. News soon surfaced that Cromvoirt was friends with Michael Dompig, the son of Gerald Dompig. Both worked on the Aruban Visibility Team, a security group that patrolled the beaches at the hotels where Holloway was staying. Recent accounts in the Aruban newspaper Diario reported that the boys often boasted that they “had fun with female tourists, even impersonating or representing themselves as island police.” It is coincidental, to say the least, that Cromvoirt’s father owned an island security firm that, among other things, was in charge of video surveillance at the Holiday Inn where Holloway was staying. Cromvoirt was released on April 24, but authorities say that he remains a suspect in the investigation.

Weeks ago, Gerald Dompig appeared in the American media to proclaim that “Holloway died of a drug or alcohol overdose,” but one day later told Dutch newspapers that “Holloway was raped and killed.” Amid this most recent controversy, Aruban newspapers are now reporting that islanders have become resigned to the fact that Dompig and his team have botched the investigation. From all accounts, Aruba is a small island and like many small communities, everyone knows everyone else’s business, a fact that was very apparent during my interviews on the island 11 months ago. After almost one year of an investigation riddled with unresolved questions, incompetent police work, and lies, it is becoming easier to believe that this crime remains unsolved because of the efforts of a few people who actually don’t want to see justice served.

Someone knows what happened to Natalee Holloway, they just aren’t talking.
http://tinyurl.com/luwel

Hi,

I haven't been around for a week or two.

Last I knew, the K2's were ordered set free, and Joran was still arrested.

Now I'm reading that Mos is a Dutch version of DumbPig.

Is Joran still under arrest? Did they extend his stay? Or is he freed also?

Thanks.

that would be my humble guess and opinion..

Joran was also released and the Prosecuter will decide if he's going to close the case by 12/31/07

Joran was freed.

klaasend,

Thank you.

Maybe, in January, Beth will finally start giving out the rest of her info.

Bye for now.

Thanks, San. :)

Yeah, when they arrested Urine and were flying him to Aruba, I was making the snide remark to myself that: Aruba/Dutch were paying First Class air tickets, round trip, for Urine to visit his parents for the holidays, all at Aruban taxpayers expense.
(actually, I might have posted my snide comment.)

. . . yeah, so true, so true. . . . I must have a crystal ball.

Why do ya'll think that RU would be in such a snit about the
ocean search?  Is it fear or ignorance?

IMO, ignorance

Ignorance with a bit of pure spite thrown in.  IMO

A CHANGING OF LOYALITIES.  WHY?

On June 5, 2005 ... initially Spencer Bachus upheld the family of Natalee Holloway in their contention that the FBI should be "heavily" involved in the Aruban investigation into the disappearance of an American citizen on the island of Aruba.  However ... six months later Bachus was singing the praises of the Aruban investigation following with the Alabama meeting with the Aruban delegation ... a meeting that the Aruban delegation objected to the family's respresentation being present.

Janet

++++++++++++++++


Spencer Bachus
BIRMINGHAM NEWS
June 5, 2005

U.S. Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Vestavia Hills, said Saturday there were circumstances surrounding Holloway's disappearance that warranted the FBI being heavily involved. He declined to give details.

"The circumstances were disturbing," said Bachus, who formally requested the FBI's involvement. "I can't get into it, but it's something the family is aware of. There was an immediate recognition that this was not simply a teen who wandered off."


Spencer Bachus
CBS NEWS
December 16, 2005

(AP) Rep. Spencer Bachus said he came away from a Friday meeting with Aruban officials with the sense that they plan to vigorously pursue leads in the disappearance of American student Natalee Holloway.

Bachus, R-Ala., whose district includes Mountain Brook, where Holloway is from, divulged little about the substance of the meeting, saying only it was a "frank and open discussion" and that Aruban authorities have devoted "tremendous resources" to the case.

"Their intention going forward ... is not to shut this case down, but to continue to pursue it vigorously," Bachus told reporters. "They do not consider it a closed case nor do they consider that they have a dead end. They continue to develop information and pursue leads."  

Bachus and Alabama officials would not comment on exactly what Richardson, Aruban police analyst Renato Emerencia and Aruban attorney Arlene Ellis Schipper told them about the investigation.

John Quinlan Kelly, a New York-based attorney for the Holloway family, said Natalee Holloway's parents wanted him to attend the meeting, but the lawmaker's office told Holloway's family the Arubans objected to that


Spencer Bachus
On the Record w/ Greta
December 16, 2005

VAN SUSTEREN: Your gut reaction from the meeting?
Do you feel confident this is the right team to be leading the investigation or would you like to see some changes?

BACHUS: It’s a small island and they are handicapped by their experience.  But I was impressed with what they had done…at least the work product.  I have seen cases…I’ve been to hired to prosecute murder cases where there is almost no file.  I will say that the resources that have been devoted to this case are really probably more substantial than most murder cases here in the United States.

VAN SUSTEREN: Have there been any leaks that have possibly jeopardized the investigation?  You don’t have to go into any details of the actual leaks but did they tell you…are you convinced that anything said so far hurt the investigation?

BACHUS: It is my understanding they were running wiretaps and it was disclosed…

VAN SUSTEREN: Would that be the initial first week before the initial arrest?

BACHUS: This was in the first weeks, that is what they’re telling me.

VAN SUSTEREN: Since that time there have been no other leaks they told you about that hurt the investigation?

BACHUS: I think if anything it is the news media.  Your show and others that probably do result in more…inaudible

VAN SUSTEREN: Okay, thank you sir.

BACHUS: I don’t have any criticism of them...

It's all they know how to do.

Wish we knew why the quick turn on his heels....we should know........

He is saying they are about as in..

Now, Now...  I'm not gonna use those words on a family board.    Klass, I don't think I have your current email!

the answer i think is because

1. when they find Natalee, it will put a giant fork in their crazy idea that she ran away
to get away from beth. geesssh. that makes me sick when ihear that crap

2. it will prove there was a murder, because people dont put her in a trap or bury her..
unless they are trying to cover something up.

3. they will have to admit they are idiots - in general


the truth is coming

it will come from the Dutch but not FROM mos.. he sucks


white knight robots  :cool:

I see more corruption,scandal,conflict of interest and perjury involving Rudy Croes at Amigoe.com. He should be retiring the rest of his years in a prison cell and not in luxury in Colombia and Aruba. I wonder what there Truth committee says about covering up the murder of Natalee Holloway?

Snip
Contradicting each other was for Henny Eman and a number of AVP-members the ‘so many proof’ that the MEP-government ‘lies and cheats’.  According to them, the minister has committed perjury.
http://amigoe.com/english/

Good evening Mr. Robots.

I must say that your Velociraptor is dressed for the occasion.

If I may comment on your post sir?

1. when they find Natalee, it will put a giant fork in their crazy idea that she ran away
to get away from beth. geesssh. that makes me sick when ihear that crap


Gunslinger: I can understand how they think this.  It is perfectly normal behavior to them.   

2. it will prove there was a murder, because people dont put her in a trap or bury her..
unless they are trying to cover something up.


Gunslinger: Duh!

3. they will have to admit they are idiots - in general

Gunslinger: I have to disagree with you here sir.  They are about 5 bears short of a six pack.  In general is being too nice.  I would suggest that they will have to admit they are idiots - as a rule.  They probably couldn't find their way out of a barn.

the truth is coming

it will come from the Dutch but not FROM mos.. he sucks

The truth is out there.

Goodnight ya'll and Happy Holidays! -

Gunslinger

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Not to mention, any "forensic evidence" collected and submitted by the defense would be highly suspect due to contamination and chain of custody issues.  Except possibly in Aruban courts, where it might be admitted and even praised.

sounds like a confirmation to me
[/quote]

A representative of our own State Department at a celebration of
the release of a suspect in the murder of an American tourist.....
talk about politically incorrect!!
[/quote]


Very sick of her and she should be called out on it. I agree with Blah here, by not answering Frank's inquiry (she is a paid public servant of the US, they supposedly answer to the people who pay their salaries) she may as well have confirmed it.
[/quote]

maybe akers is asleep at the switch.  make your next inquiry to her former boss on aruba, and her boss in thailand.  if she's a friend of the sloot family, did she give recommendations and opinions to bacchus and maybe other politicians that followed the sloot line of "blame the victim".  does make you wonder, doesn't it?
dennisintn
[/quote]

These appointments are made for very well-off people.  The actual pay is small and all they get is a place to live and a title, so they must be independently wealthy people who "serve" in these positions.  These jobs are not meant to be anything but a paid holiday to the recipient of the job who has a vested interest in the country; unfortunately, these jobs have become anything but advocacy for American citizens abroad.  Disgusting as it may be, our tax dollars at work.  These people who "accept" (and beg) for these appointments (and I don't call them jobs because they are not), work hard at fundraising and cajoling members of the administration's staff's friends, cousins's aunt's nephew's cousin to get them so they can have a paid vacation in a country of their choice, where they prefer to be, anywhere outside of the USA. 

joe t is very worried

very worried, he knows the real evidence that has not been allowed or has been hidden away.

if there was nothing, he would not have been screaming all day and night on FOX BULL CRAP news.

he would have just let the judges do their thing, its not like  joe t. did anything
to speed up the process of getting the RAPIST - KILLER out of jail any faster

nawwwwww... what you worried about huh ??  JOE????

hehehe.....joe makes me want to wretch my metal guts out

he knows. how he sleeps at night is a mystery

That's because Joe knows the real trail leads directly from Joran to Papa Sloot...

Joran must have been Papa's delivery boy... The casino video indicates that possibility exists -- now if you culd just get the table audio...

How wrong we all were about Mos. Looking back, I think he was telling us that without a body, or a videotape, he would close the case. We just didnt hear him.

That all makes Bachus sound a lot like Mos.  Such a quick change of tune.

I hope the Aruban prosecution is not going to try to claim that somebody "leaked" their top secret, special wiretapping as an excuse for anything.

That is hardly anything new or even something that should be unexpected.  Even Paulus had warned the suspects to beware of that possibility.

So is this what they are saying?  That someone gave away the fact they had wiretaps going and just spoiled all their crack investigative techniques?  Wire taps against cell phone kids is laughable to begin with let alone as an excuse for botching an investigation.

I do hope they will not even try something so childish as to pretend someone leaked their wiretaps just ruining it all.  That would be just beyond belief in this day and age.

But I don't put any lame attempt at an excuse past them at all.

MO

.

A representative of our own State Department at a celebration of
the release of a suspect in the murder of an American tourist.....
talk about politically incorrect!!
[/quote]


Very sick of her and she should be called out on it. I agree with Blah here, by not answering Frank's inquiry (she is a paid public servant of the US, they supposedly answer to the people who pay their salaries) she may as well have confirmed it.
[/quote]

maybe akers is asleep at the switch.  make your next inquiry to her former boss on aruba, and her boss in thailand.  if she's a friend of the sloot family, did she give recommendations and opinions to bacchus and maybe other politicians that followed the sloot line of "blame the victim".  does make you wonder, doesn't it?
dennisintn
[/quote]

These appointments are made for very well-off people.  The actual pay is small and all they get is a place to live and a title, so they must be independently wealthy people who "serve" in these positions.  These jobs are not meant to be anything but a paid holiday to the recipient of the job who has a vested interest in the country; unfortunately, these jobs have become anything but advocacy for American citizens abroad.  Disgusting as it may be, our tax dollars at work.  These people who "accept" (and beg) for these appointments (and I don't call them jobs because they are not), work hard at fundraising and cajoling members of the administration's staff's friends, cousins's aunt's nephew's cousin to get them so they can have a paid vacation in a country of their choice, where they prefer to be, anywhere outside of the USA. 
[/quote]

According to the state department scale, a Vice Consul is paid the same as an
O-3.(Captain)..Army, Air Force or Marines or between $5,000 and $6,000 per month

Hello monkeys!  I don't get to post very often, my computer (second hard drive since this all began...) is so slow I usually give up after a few hours of catching up on the latest posts.  I agree that PVDS is involved in more than just the coverup of what happened to Natalee, the casino tape proves that to me among other things.  Why lie about seeing her there otherwise?  In the beginning I'd hoped and believed that Greta would see this through to the truth but I'm utterly disgusted with her now; it almost seems as if JVDS charmed her like the snake did Mogli in the Jungle Book :shock: so now she's "inclined" to believe him.  I thought she was much smarter than she's shown.  I also agree with many of the opinions I've read about Joe Taco';  he is a joke, and infuriates me everytime he opens his mouth.  Like his presence in Aruba made a difference one way or the other for his "client" :roll:.  I guess "anything" from the U. S. that will stand beside them is welcome at this point, and he seems like the type to stand up for "anything" that will get him some airtime.  I pray every day that there will be answers for Natalee's family.  I'm delighted about the deep water search and those that have undertaken this massive effort, they are a ray of hope that I believe we all so desperately needed at this point.  I hope they won't have all of the obstacles that the early seaches encountered and will remain steadfast in their mission.  Although justice in this case will probably never come here on earth, bringing Natalee home would definately make me rest a lot easier. 

I don't know about that, but the Queen's primary physicians name is
Drs. J.A.P. van der Sloot lol.
http://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/content.jsp?objectid=2884&highlights=Sloot

Very sick of her and she should be called out on it. I agree with Blah here, by not answering Frank's inquiry (she is a paid public servant of the US, they supposedly answer to the people who pay their salaries) she may as well have confirmed it.
[/quote]

maybe akers is asleep at the switch.  make your next inquiry to her former boss on aruba, and her boss in thailand.  if she's a friend of the sloot family, did she give recommendations and opinions to bacchus and maybe other politicians that followed the sloot line of "blame the victim".  does make you wonder, doesn't it?
dennisintn
[/quote]

These appointments are made for very well-off people.  The actual pay is small and all they get is a place to live and a title, so they must be independently wealthy people who "serve" in these positions.  These jobs are not meant to be anything but a paid holiday to the recipient of the job who has a vested interest in the country; unfortunately, these jobs have become anything but advocacy for American citizens abroad.  Disgusting as it may be, our tax dollars at work.  These people who "accept" (and beg) for these appointments (and I don't call them jobs because they are not), work hard at fundraising and cajoling members of the administration's staff's friends, cousins's aunt's nephew's cousin to get them so they can have a paid vacation in a country of their choice, where they prefer to be, anywhere outside of the USA. 
[/quote]

According to the state department scale, a Vice Consul is paid the same as an
O-3.(Captain)..Army, Air Force or Marines or between $5,000 and $6,000 per month
[/quote]

Exactly and how could they live in the lap of luxury in a foreign land, entertain constantly and maintain a residence that is comparable to the finest of homes in Veranda in several countries.  Not going to do that on $5000-6000 a month.

I think you can break down this case into 2 very distinct decisions by Aruba/The Netherlands.
The first June 10th, 2005 when very high Aruban officials (read Oduber) decided a COVER UP was better for Aruban tourism than revealing the sordid truth of just how vile and depraved the island actually is.
Second, after 2 1/2 years they had a chance to go back and erase the poor decision #1, but they chose AGAIN to go the cover-up rout.
I think the Dutch  really DID want to solve the case. However, when they actually found out just how corrupt the case was (all the way to corrupt DUTCH judges and officials) they too decided a cover-up was better than revealing to the world just how rotten the Dutch system is.

BOTH DECISIONS IF REVERSED WOULD HAVE BEEN FATAL TO THEM ANYWAYS. THEY WERE SCREWED EITHER WAY.

Indeed......damned if they do, damned if they don't.

They know she is dead, and they know it was accidental.  How do they know this, and why won't they tell the family.

The guilty always scream the loudest about how "There is no evidence against me... (or my client)".

Anna, the "wiretaps" the people down there are upset about, have nothing to do with JK2 (or at least didn't when they were first initiated). These are for a different purpose and from all indications, they must have picked up "chatter" related to the case as a corollary consequence. It is the very fact that the US was wiretapping in Aruba in the first place that has them upset with us.

BINGO.

Yes, SB, I somewhat agree.  The Dutch/Arubans, however, know we are listening.  And we know they know.  And they know we know.

So I am not sure what the sudden outrage would be about unless it is the use of this surveillance against civilians not suspected of engaging in drug trafficking.

Could the Arubans really be so naive as to think we have that forward base which would primarily be a listening post for nothing?

Maybe Oduber and others have major cause for concern over what has been heard.

I wonder if something like this was actually used by ALE and is now considered some sort of illegally gotten evidence.  The DEA remark was interesting.  Mos said he had this and that and then suddenly he has nothing.

None of it makes any sense.

.

Because it wasn't accidental.

Look, the very first lie they told made reference to Natalee hitting her head.  Other references to her hitting her head were made by Joran, Deepak and Paulus when telling other lies...like when Joran said they went swimming.  Early on Joran was setting the table for a head injury because he was not certain that she wouldn't be found.

I think Joran left her at the beach that night....under a bunch of sand.  It was a quick solution for a short time.  I think she was moved from the beach the next day/night.

This was no accident.

I agree Truth, if there wasn't something extremely incriminating there would have been NO REASON for the semi-humans NOT to bring her body forward to the authorities, demonstrating the accident.

THIS WAS NO ACCIDENT!!!!!!!

The LACK OF COMMON SENSE is attrocious among those that consider themselves professional.  There is nothing on that Devil's Isle that is professional in one iota of a manner.  It's like the Dutch have an ISLE for the DUTCH MISFITS with their minions of similiar lack of brain capacity & it's name is A______.

That Jvdsslootscum is not intelligent by any means, betcha the IQ score on him is remedial AT BEST.

[

These appointments are made for very well-off people.  The actual pay is small and all they get is a place to live and a title, so they must be independently wealthy people who "serve" in these positions.  These jobs are not meant to be anything but a paid holiday to the recipient of the job who has a vested interest in the country; unfortunately, these jobs have become anything but advocacy for American citizens abroad.  Disgusting as it may be, our tax dollars at work.  These people who "accept" (and beg) for these appointments (and I don't call them jobs because they are not), work hard at fundraising and cajoling members of the administration's staff's friends, cousins's aunt's nephew's cousin to get them so they can have a paid vacation in a country of their choice, where they prefer to be, anywhere outside of the USA. 
[/quote]

According to the state department scale, a Vice Consul is paid the same as an
O-3.(Captain)..Army, Air Force or Marines or between $5,000 and $6,000 per month
[/quote]

The O-3 pay scale is for Vice Consul AKA Jean Akers
The Consul General's pay scale is the same as a General in
the Army, Air Force or Marines and the Veranda house is provided.

probably already mentioned...the View is having greta on about Nat soon

p.s. Klass....thanks for the nice tub :lol:

Greta is on the View right now!

Will you tell us basically what she says as it will be over before I could find it on TV?

.

watching and listening to Greta is worse than Tacopina.

She continues to drop Natalee on the beach....

Ugghhhh.  i am thinking greta got some of that columbian dumb dust blown on her when she was down there in aruba. :roll:

I totally agree sb. I have thought this from very early in the case.

can someone paste Greta's head on Michael Archer in that picture with Paulus and his fly open?

I think that foursome would say it all and how we feel about her. Preferrably if she's looking down at Paulus's crotch.

She is a complete idiot. Along with O'reilly.

No body, no overdose.

She has talked about:
Staci Peterson Case
American girl held in Italy
Dennis Quaid's twins being given wrong drug
The child who commited suicide due to the myspace posting.
Maybe another....I can't remember

She did not mention and was not asked about Natalee or Aruba

ty mag...i am not by a tv.

see u monkeys later

Greta was there to promote her "On the Record" Show.

Ratings must be down.

the taco must not have been available to rebuttals of anything bad said about the precious sporter.
dennisintn

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/PVDSGreta.jpg)

Perfect fit, Klaas.  :lol:

Is the View broadcasted from CA?  Just wondering....I sometimes watch, but missed it, today...snowing, here and was trying to get our boston terrior to go out...she's not stupid, though.  :lol: She ran back in...

I believe it's broadcast in NYC - Greta said something about going to NYC real quick for the View interview on her blog.

It is raining here and my 70lb puppy doesn't want to come in out of the rain.
He has seen so little of it that he thinks it is fun.