Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

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http://nholloway.blogspot.com/

Wednesday, January 2, 2008
X. Persistence
 
Update: 03-Jan 2200 hrs
As the Persistence travels through the turquoise Aruban waters to start another day of searching, onlooking swimming seabirds and flying fish curiously come alongside the boat. We worked all day and will continue working through the night. As we work on, we maintain a rhythm yet avoid routine. Over-familiarity risks carelessness and worse, complacency. For any one of us to even momentarily let our focus down opens the door for utter failure. The tremendous progress so far was only made possible with a very strong team, excellent leadership, planning, and prayer. There have been many times when there is nothing to say, times when nothing can be said, and times when words alone cannot describe the situation. We will continue on through the night, until the beckoning glow of the rising sun silhouettes our return to the dock.

Thoughts & prayers with the Persistence crew....

Those people in those pool party pictures look like Drag Queens. :shock:

I don't understand the guy with the painted animal face.  What did that have to do with a birthday party?  And when does the birthday boy entertain everyone?  It was bizarre the first time I saw it and it still is.  Did we ever decide who those men were with the Minister?

i heard Anna was looking for me..

klass. please send her my email address ---pick whatever one you want  :cool: :lol:

unless that is. if she is mad at me, an if she is,tell her you have not seen me

thank you for your cooperation  :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

The painted animal face is another drag thing. 
Is the minister the one in the straw hat?...love that outfit!

Klaas, have you seen the Mos thread at RU?
MF is back with a vengence and Debbie is giving Wang and MF what for.

Yes, I've been following it  :wink:

It is hard to explain why these people do these things but my first thought when I saw all the going's on from this island were doped, drugged, drunk and depraved.

Lala's, do you want to tell us about your premonition?

Klaas, can you bring that conversation over here? 

:shock: Who else maybe related to Dompig that we don't know about?

Hello everyone.  When Natalee disappeared in May of 2005 was Anita in Holland?  And were the other two boys with her or Pauls?

Which conversation and where is it?

Depends upon who you ask.  According to the Sloots, when Natalee went missing Anita was still in the NL but Valintijn and Sebastian were home with PVDS and Joran.

It has always been my opinion that the two younger boys were with
Anita in the NL.  But there is no conformation of that.

God is definitely on the side of right and the fact that only the hand of God could have directed all of you good people to create and assemble this equipment and boat, and then to utilize it in the search for Natalee, tells me that He has Natalee in his house and His calming hand clasped with Beth's hand comforting her and providing her strength.

As in all searches done professionally as this one is, there is no way to have searched in vain. It is important to eliminate potential areas for her remains to be located, as it greatly reduces the possibilities where she might be found. You are searching not only a large area but one that has here to fore been unsearchable. That said I know that I am still very optimistic that you will find Natalee, but either way I am deeply appreciative of the enormity of all of your contributions. All of you are mighty fine people and Beth is certainly being blessed to have your contributions.

I think that this may prove to be an excellent summary of all legal in this case. I have not finished with it, and just how much it applies to Aruba I cannot determine yet, but it just might be worth reading for those who are interested. If someone has previously posted of it, I apologize but won't be surprised as this group seems to have digested every word written that touches this case. And it always helps to have more than one persons eyes and interpretation, so I am posting the link below.


http://www.law.wits.ac.za/humanrts/cat/antilles1994.html

Mine also,Especially if that is PVDS on the video drinking and gambling next to Natalee at 8:30PM. He claims that he left the casino hours earlier because Sebastian was gonna be dropped off at home :roll: Why would he lie about that? I guess because he could,by the time he even made that statement Anita and the kids were already home. I don't know how old Sebastian was,maybee 10 or 12? But it was a school night and PVDS would not be out drinking and gambling if the youngest was at home and it being after 8pm. It  looks to me like both Joran and Paulus were at play while Anita and the younger boys were away.IMO

(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9554/casino1cn5uf2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I have many of the same questions about all of this, I posted in the theories area a little while ago....  If the younger sons were with AVDS than there are SO MANY lies in PVDS statements regarding that evening and the next couple of days.  I seem to recall statements about the younger boys catching the school bus etc.  It's just too convenient in my opinion that AVDS remained in Holland until after the crime.

Mos thread at RU.  I am sorry, but I had to go see the Romney boys.  They were being interviewed.  My what some good looking guys.  Maybe they could just run as a unit to be president.

Tylergal, it's several pages long now and really nothing more that bickering back and forth with an occasional vile post by WangChung inbetween.  Not worth reading actually, IMO.

Has there been any news today about Kalpoe/Phil court hearing today???

Hi Sue,

I havent seen anything.

crapola the pins are hurting my ass that I am sitting on waiting

My prayers go up for the Persistence crew and the work you are doing.

lol. Yes It's been going on for what over a year already? The Dishonorable Judge Wit wrote that letter to the Dr.Phil Attys explaining why some of the the case files could not be released until a decision of the case has been made.  We know thats been done,now what?

Posted by Victor at Scrux:

Interview with Hans Mos (translation) - Bon Dia  


Please note the mere part of the article is the opinion of the interviewer/author of the article, Mos is quoted about 12 times, even if it may seem otherwise, that is the way the article is written)



HANS MOS DOES NOT UNDERSTAND IRRITATION ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE KLPD.

"When an investigation is stuck, it is only logical to let others help look for the solution?"
The Fiscal Mayor esteems the case of Natalee Holloway has cost between 5- 10 million dollars.

Oranjestad, still no solution in the case of Natalee Holloway was a reason for frustration for some to decide that the work did not come to a conclusion.
But a frustration does not have to be negative, the contrary. The opinion of Hans Mos, the sentiment here results in staying to keep putting energy in the case in order to be finally able close the case with a solution.

And now the solution will have to stay in the hands of the 4 researchers of the organ of police of Aruba, under the supervision of commissar Dolfi Richardson, who will have the responsibility to investigate new information about the case.
The case which has cost a lot of money, efforts and which has created much tension, for sure for someone who was in charge of the investigation, who still was not able to produce the image of what really happened to Natalee Holloway.

CRITISISM ABOUT THE ARUBAN POLICE.
Mr Hans Mos was not very clear if one day there will be a rapport of evaluation about how the investigation process had went.
For example there was strong criticism from the part of the family of Natalee Holloway about the the time it had taken on Aruba to arrest those who had been last with the young girl before she disappeared.
Here Mos was careful to give his opinion even more because he himself does not know the arguments of the authorities back then.
"I was not responsible for what happened back then, but I can tell that the decision they took was integer".

Without a doubt, Hans Mos was in an article in the Telegraaf addressing faults made by the old team.
Although Mos admits the Dutch paper is known for sensationalism, he denies to have ever said something like that about the former team. "There are things in the article I have never said", Mos says. "The only thing that I said is that some things did not end up in paper, and of which we thought could tell us more, so we went back and listened to the phone conversations and revised all the results of the old investigation. And based upon that, we were able to get more information", and once more Hans Mos does not give his opinion about the past situation, but used the popular Dutch figure of speech: 'Door de bomen het bos niet meer zien' to describe a psychological process that can occur inside an investigation team when there is a large quantity of information.
"And this is not to insult, it happens and ppl in Holland recognize it". In the past sense it is also necessary to criticize the work one has done. And to criticize your own work is something difficult according to Hans Mos, whom took the "journey" of becoming the help of a third person.

Of the form here can be determined if true was seen in one angle, if had to turned to all routes necessary, and if something went unnoticed.
"This whole journey has some doors open, and this happens in an investigation of the police it is good to have another who can throw in a new view, and can attribute attention to the aspects here".
And although the KLPD did take charge of the investigation second phase, it was important to include persons of the Aruban police who had knowledge of the case, And more had quality of Aruban personal who teamed up with the KLPD in the last investigation. The local analysts were of importance to give continuation of the investigation because their knowledge of the case was good.

Hans Mos does not understand the irritation which exists close to some members of the old investigation team, about the way the KLPD works. The Head Commissar has given the of two teams consisting team to do the investigation, for example the first journey, does not question the collaboration of the first team, but also a result of the circumstances, an example, the the way the new investigation team had to obtain permission to investigate the houses of the persons who were last with Natalee is due to the analyses of the dossier, new questions had arisen.
And had to get the warrant based upon new information for new permission. The Head Commissar does not appreciate the accusation "because the Dutch are involved in the case now, they are able achieve more, if an investigation is getting stuck it is only logical to go look for help to have others help search for the solution. This creates the impression that is bad for a solution in the case. "In the opinion of Mos, to police officers of heart and with the intention to look at a case to come to a conclusion, it does not matter how that can be achieved.

INVESTIGATION IN AMERICA COULD HAVE BEEN MORE, BUT WITHOUT OTHER RESULT.
And is the base of the questioner self, the big question, did they not have to investigate more profound the youngsters who were together with Natalee Holloway during her stay in Aruba.
It was talked about by some, and true the process in the USA was dirigated by the lawyers of the youngsters, is it the true is that the FBI inter mediated to be able to talk with a select group, but the questions were controlled by the approval of the lawyers.
Hans Mos is reacting by saying, he did not have the responsibility for that past process, and because he does not have enough information with the wish to talk to the young Americans to be able to give an opinion.
"The only thing I can tell is, in my work as a professional, one has to look into all options to be able to eliminate", according to Mos.
Even if it may not be necessary to say the way the option was handled and some do not understand, but one has to determine a certain direction of the investigation and be able to add on things.

If Mos believes it had been good if for example the investigation in American had been bigger (I have constatated this had not been done in the proper way) he thinks the process will not produce anything. "No, I do not have even a single indication now that the solution of the case is to be found in America". Mos has to confess, secure in his concept in spite of some sort of explanation the scenario of the Pubic Ministerie in this (based upon the investigation) is one more plausible. In other words, the Head Commissar remains certain at the three youngsters who were the last with Natalee Holloway.
(red. the conversation with Mos took place just when the lawyer of Satish and Deepak contradicted the suspicions of the OM, being that Deepak Kalpoe had admitted Natalee is dead. According to the lawyers the investigation simply had one internet conversation out of context).

ACTIONS WERE MOTIVE FOR SUSPICION.
Thus the Public Minister is convinced that they know in general what has happened to Natalee Holloway, but does not know the details, and also is not sure if a criminal act took place. "The only thing to tell is that we believe that these three persons have the key of her story." And for Hans Mos it is difficult to believe that an accident happened to Natalee simply because, based on, among other things a conversation of one of the three had 5 hours after the young disappeared girl was last seen being on tape.
This one of the three to another gives account of something had happened. If it was an accident, they did not call for help.
According to Mos, the main question to the trio was if they are responsible not one thought logical provided that in case of Natalee an accident had happened.
"The own actions of the trio has resulted in the suspicion of them. But again, that was not enough proof they had committed a crime".

AN INVESTIGATION THAT COSTED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS
The investigation has costs millions of dollars, the investigation here with the usage of technologies cellphone conversations and the so called chats, if not for the famous F16's which searched for the possible burial place and the intervention of the Dutch Forensic Institute, Hans Mos says he did not do a calculation of the exact amount, but without including the salaries the investigation of Natalee Holloway costs somewhere between 5 and 10 million dollars.
And this is a dilemma, because although to have been invited to enforce a place in the investigation, you are left with no solution.
"But you have to ask how much is the life of a person worth".

INVESTIGATION TO FOLLOW
In the same time at the quarters of the Cuerpo Policial Aruban will stay working on the investigation and is responsible to complete the puzzle, according to Mos who draws a certain image.
"We cannot tell what who is doing, but the investigators are so fascinated with the case that even in their free time they come to review the case. Although the case is a cold case they say they will keep it alive."

MIne also! I hope they are on the verge on making history and bringing Natalee home. She has to be out there! WHere else could she be besides the western side of Aruba a few miles out? Why make it more difficult for themselves back in June 2005? The Perps never dreamed a team like the Persistence would be out there ever looking for Natalee Holloway.

AN INVESTIGATION THAT COSTED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS
The investigation has costs millions of dollars, the investigation here with the usage of technologies cellphone conversations and the so called chats, if not for the famous F16's which searched for the possible burial place and the intervention of the Dutch Forensic Institute, Hans Mos says he did not do a calculation of the exact amount, but without including the salaries the investigation of Natalee Holloway costs somewhere between 5 and 10 million dollars.
And this is a dilemma, because although to have been invited to enforce a place in the investigation, you are left with no solution.
"But you have to ask how much is the life of a person worth".

I would guess you're about to find out.

Goodnight monkeys.

What Lazlo's translation shows ...  is MF editing out Mos comments about the evidence and strong suspicions against J2K - and editing out a Mos comment about zero indications that any answers would come from the U.S..

It's pathetic.

And FWIW - i am nearly sure that MF is scubajap's daughter. Annalisa Klein/Gesterkamp (sp).

What did Mos say ? Lots of words, but I can discern nothing.

Telling ALE/Aruba that solving the case is better than not. And to STFU and quit whining. IMO

Igsigs - yes..MF is a real piece of work.  So..Scubajap's daughter huh?  Wonder if Scubajap sometimes uses MF's nick too?

TY. Why can't these Dutch ppl learn how to speak English !  :roll:Mos sounds like a political windbag. 

That is interesting. I bet she got a good deal on Koens boat when they fled Aruba :-x . I think the moment has passed and Scuba should explain why she made this statement.

(Talking about Lorenzo Van Rijn)
Has his own boat, I had mentioned him previously.
But, they did bring him in twice, searched his boat, his house, his car and no forensics.
This is a little more complicated than I can fully explain here, let's just say it has always bothered me why they didn't question him like they questioned Joran, and leave it at that for the moment, OK?
Posted by: scubajap | Oct 16, 2005 10:07:43 PM

I would not be surprised if she did - but probably not that often. MF more likely to know pap/dutch than mom.

Yeah Kat, Mos is a windbag. Over and over and over he acts surprised at the lack of cooperation and motivation amongst the powers-that-be on Aruba. Clue 1 that the KLPD should have cast a wider net in their investigation.

It's bothered me too  :wink:

Mos=FOS is exactly right. They waited 10 days to make the arrest,17 days to issue a warrant that they changed at the last seconds to just Jorans room,blood that turned into chocolate and the confession and NH being confirmed dead that never happened. Not to mention PVDS best friend leading the Investigation. Even Judge Wit said last week that Dompig obstructed Justice and didnt want them to search the rest of the VDS property.  And that one paragraph is all Mos has to say about criticism of the police force..  :-x :-?

I think we may need to send one out for Rob  :wink:

Night!

Hey Kyle! Crank up Sweet Home Alabama next time you feel like you may need a little  luck :cool: It is really about time something goes this girls way. Godspeed

amen to that *******!
 :thumright:         :smt035

Edited to add
Sweet Home Alabama  :D
http://youtube.com/watch?v=huLklsj_5HI

thanks *******! :smt055

IIRC it was posted that Hiram lived next door to Posner or really close. There were posts about 'what did you see through the window'. Do I have the right guy? May have been Tony that posted this, though I do recall Kawish was asked about him.

Mum

Just stopped in to answer.  IIRC, Florida was involved in posting about the window, etc.  At times, Florida posted many theories in a way to make them sound like fact. I'm not sure it was.

Kawish had discussed a picture of Hiram and Aline at a possible high class VIP club.  He did say something about Hiram seeing her after that night but I think he was discussing a comment from another board.

Thanks Buckeye...was it you discussing the blood on the mattress a couple of months ago. Some posters did a lot of research and I believe it was decided that ALE could not have distinguished human or dog blood without forensics. TIA

Mum

Not me.  Very early in the case, some of us did research regarding blood.  There was an interesting forensic study, involving, I believe a body in a well.  Long story, short:  dog's blood was used to throw off the scent of the dogs.  Interesting that there are so many strays on Aruba.  Would be pretty easy to lure a stray and then kill him......Guess that would pertain to dogs and people....on that island.

I have seen photos of the same people from the Karma Lounge photo site......ummmmm Magic 96.5 photo gallery. Pretty scary.

http://news.diario-aruba.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=13&Itemid=30 (http://news.diario-aruba.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=13&Itemid=30)

Link is to Diario's Local news section.


man apparently tries to attack a tourist couple at high rise hotel. No video image captured.


Online Pap translation:

turistanan owing to core huy of man cu supuesto bad intencion
friday, 04 january 2008

oranjestad (aan): on the second day of year, central of police owing to dirigi patrol of strandpolitie at one highrise hotel relaciona cu one caso of atraco.

was 12’or of afternoon cu the caso owing to worde reporta, y pesey owing to dirigi personal of strandpolitie at the hotel provided that cuestion.

at arrival agentenan owing to talk cu the madam of inicialnan c.p. naci at brasil of 26 year. according declaracion, cu alrededor of 1’or y pico of madruga, the was cu his partner direccion of the hotel. at dado instant one man owing to acerca they y is arrive more close for owing to grab they.

but tanto the denunciante y his partner masculino tumando at cuenta of the intencion of the individual, not only owing to spanta but they owing to core bay direccion of the hotel.

is hour they owing to core enter lobby y bay in lift, they owing to look at behind the supuesto atracador owing to desaparece.
owing to base of the informe suministra at the personal of strandpolitie owing to revisa the video already cu have camera sofistica instala, y this owing to capta thing is actuate in vecindario of the hotel.

but according informe, not had imagen of the sucedido, niether of coremento. tog the caso have debido atencion of autoridad concerni.

* * *
"Tommy" hit man "W." in the head with a with beer bottle; left him bleeding.


Online Pap translation:

man all at blood owing to rechaza all yudanza of autoridad
friday, 04 january 2008

oranjestad (aan): was late in oranan of marduga, one man conocido of police, esta one such b. owing to give tip at police, indicando cu behind one supermercado have one man throw all at blood.

police did take the tip at earnest y owing to dicidi of bay throw one view y enberdad they owing to come across cu he of surname w. cu his cabez cubri cu blood.

according w. cu some choller owing to maltrate, one of the anti-socialnan here is one such “tommy”. the such tommy owing to strike the cu one boter cervez in cabez.

besides the victima owing to tell police, cu the not have have to of yudanza, neither of police y niether servicio of ambulance.

at various ocasion, police owing to ask about y ofrece the compay here all golpia for yude, cada vez the was deny the oferta.

at dado instant on his own forza, w. owing to arise stop on his pianan y owing to march direccion village. patrol owing to follow behind w., for averigua kico is his intencion.

at one cas in village for being exact caya bonaire, past owing to enter one parcela y so also past owing to arrive cas sano y salvo.

all the time police after owing to throw one view in vecindario if acaso they can localiza the such “tommy” but without none result.

* * *

Robots, Letterman was speaking of Robots last night.  You've made the big time. 

Prayers for Tim and the crew of the Persistance. 

It would have cost much less to do the investigation correctly in those first few days than to try to put on a show for an international audience and then try to uncover what that show covered later on.  And Arubans went along with blaming Beth and the U.S. media and even Natalee.  Aruba has made its own bed. 

This is from the link posted on pg 1. It seems as though the laws have a means to deal with the silence of the boys, unless they are exempt since they were suspects instead of witnesses.

Article 15

124. The Code of Criminal Procedure of the Netherlands Antilles contains (arts. 301-307) rules for the judgment of evidence.


125. Under Netherlands Antillean criminal procedure, not all types of evidence are admissible, since the law exhaustively lists those which are (the judge's own observations, statements made by the suspect, witnesses and experts, and written evidence), while it excludes statements made by fellow suspects and declares uncorroborated statements made by the suspect or a single witness to be insufficient. In Netherlands Antillean criminal case law the doctrine of unlawfully obtained evidence, obtained by a breach of statutory provisions or in a way which conflicts with unwritten procedural law, has been developed. Such evidence may not be used to prove a charge. It is the general opinion both in legal practice and doctrine that the court shall not use or give any weight to evidence illegally obtained. Failure to observe the above regulations leads to the evidence thus acquired being declared inadmissible.


126. Witnesses are in principle obliged to make a statement unless they can invoke a statutory exemption. The obligation is compelling: witnesses at a hearing under oath and, at the request of the suspect or upon application by the Public Prosecution Office, the courts have the power to remand in custody witnesses who without legitimate grounds refuse to answer the questions put to them or to take the oath (or, in the case of non-believers, make the affirmation), provided this is urgently necessary in the interests of the inquiry.


127. The court may order an immediate criminal investigation if a witness is suspected of having committed perjury. In no instance is it permissible to subject witnesses to any coercive measures other than those described above.

Article 16

128. The Netherlands Antilles will choose to formulate a separate definition of the offence of torture. Other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment may be deemed to fall within the definitions of existing offences in the Criminal Code. These include articles 248 and 249 (concerning sexual abuse); articles 287 to 299 (concerning crimes against a person's liberty, slavery, kidnapping, assault and battery and unlawful threat, the infliction of bodily injury or causing death).


129. The statements made above with respect to articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 are also applicable to the acts referred to in article 16 of the Convention.

It appears at first glance that witnesses can be held until they talk. Whether or not this is correct and what limitations there are I don't know. I realize that this seems to be crimes committed by the state involving brutality and torture, I don't think it is limited to that, and in the course of the discussion, the summary explains Netherland Antilles Law and procedures, I think:) My trouble has been locating anything in English.

As that other site would be quick to point out, I wish they would please furnish us a detailed cost accounting of their claim. And I would like to point out that it is Aruba's authority, as they have plainly made obvious to the FBI and Beth, to investigate the crime alone, and it was within Aruba's borders that the crime was committed thus their expense to fix, and it is Aruba that advertises itself to the world as the "happy Little Island" that is soooooooo safe in an effort to attract our tourists dollars.

My point is, why are they telling us this? Do they want me to tell them all about MY BILLS, since they would be just as responsible for them as I am for theirs. Do they want to reimburse Dave and Beth and TEQS and Entourage for all of their cost? It is claims like this that illustrate the immaturity of their nation, the callousness of their government, and the ill spirited down right meanness of their citizens. Right, this is another example of just how much they want our tourist business and how important our safety is to them. As a people and a nation, a tourist life is insignificant to them. They have the laws in place, the procedure to handle conflicts of interest, the means to force people to testify, but instead they cloak their actions in secrecy, treat us as if we are complete idiots, and when they find out otherwise, they blatantly flip us the bird and tell us to fock off!!!!!!! Even their judges ignore their own professional code of ethics to finish their "clean up squads" work.

And their is the cost of WHAT IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN TO SOLVE THE CASE, MINI,AL VS THE HUGE EXPENSE INVOLVED TO ACCOMPLISH THE COVER UP/INCOMPETENCE.

I just can't believe what comes out of their mouths:))))))))

 :salut: :salut: :salut: :salut: :salut:

Never once have they apologized to the family of Natalee for all the hurt and pain they have caused. Aruba chose to fight her mother and father tooth and nail from the get-go. AHATA and ATA have tried everything they could to bash Natalee and point the investigation away from the perpetrators. Aruba sent out protesters to bash the family. Aruba chose cover-up over justice and are still riding it today.

Screw that whole entire island. Aruba deserves to have their asses shut down.

POSTED: 8:02 am EDT June 5, 2005
UPDATED: 10:16 pm EDT June 5, 2005

SAN NICOLAS, Aruba -- At least 70 people attended a prayer vigil Sunday night in Aruba for missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway.

One speaker at the 10-minute ceremony said the so-far unsuccessful search for Holloway is a trying time "for the world as a whole."

Holloway had been visiting the island last week with classmates to celebrate their high school graduation when she disappeared.

A reward of $50,00 is being offered for information leading to her rescue.

Police in Aruba said Sunday that a blood-soaked mattress found on a beach in eastern Aruba over the weekend was not related to the missing girl.

The two men being detained are security guards at the Allegra Hotel, which is near where Holloway was staying, Birmingham television station WVTM reported.

Aruba Attorney General Carin Jansen told reporters gathered at a press conference Sunday that while the arrest of two men was related to the case due to unspecified "tips," she declined to provide further details.

She would not say whether there was a connection between those two men and three others who had previously been questioned in connection with the Mountain Brook teen's disappearance.

Jansen answered most questions from reporters with a terse, "That is part of the investigation, and I can't discuss it."

Several additional details on the search for Holliway did come out during the press conference.

Jansen confirmed that law enforcement officials in Aruba had asked for help from an FBI diving team. She also told reporters that while police had not confiscated clothing or other items that would directly link the two arrested men to Holloway, they had seized other "items of interest to the case."

She also said that the two men arrested were considered "solid leads" in the case.

As for how long the investigation would continue, Jansen said that it would continue "as long as needed. It could be two weeks...three weeks. However long it takes for us to complete the picture."

Following a tip, police also searched the Allegra on Saturday. No sign of Holloway was found during the search, but a further investigation led to the arrest of the two men.

It is not yet clear what charges are being brought against the pair.

Holloway was on a five-day excursion with 124 seniors and several chaperones from Mountain Brook High School, near Birmingham. Holloway was last seen early May 30.

She did not show up for her return flight, and police found her passport in her hotel room with her packed bags.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/4570524/detail.html

Keep going PI, You're on a ROLL!

We could have gladly shared some of their "expense" and billed it through our FBI.  I believe they offered to help.  :roll: Seems to me that since they excluded any offers of assistance from the FBI and other investigative agencies, they should stop WHINING about the cost.

ARUBA, you can't have it both ways.

 

I'M sure they added all that in there costs when they sued Dr.Phil for 800 million dollars.  :2doh:

Yep.  and in spite of their best efforts at a cover up, it's all coming out anyway.  Bad Strategy!

LOSS, LOSS, and more LOSS. 

I don't know if it is mere stupidity or shear corruptness that Aruba has taken the angle that if the case is "closed" -- they "win." (It is BOTH -- I surmize)

I happened upon this list of expenses written on a torn up frosted flake box.

ALE Expenses
Purchase of gottenbos house
Purchase of gottenbos insurance company
Purchase of gottenbos seamstress business
Purchase of gottenbos boat
Purchase of gottenbos bus
Relocation cost for gottenbos family to US
Air fare, one way to nl-, guido
Air fare one way Mx- relocate C&C staff/witnesses
Air fare one way Australia (?) - relocate teacher
Air fares round trip to nl- many trips by various vdsluts, Jansen, dumpig
Air fare round trip Barbados-dumpig
Air fare round trip Birmingham-dumpig
Air fare round trip Phila, meet with Franny Rizzo a phila counsilman and police-dompig
Metal institution fees to hid witness
ahata
Frosted flakes-lots, keep 'em coming
Murder- Rene H.
Murder- Ruth D
Charles Croes' cell phone bussiness to monitor Natalee's family members and anyone    wanting to help Natalee
F-16's (three)
Salaries of many aruban blog posters
Spending money for jurin
Re-writing of police statements
Purchase 1 car -guido
Purchase 1 car-deepak
Destruction 1 car-deepak
Puchase 1 car-replace deepak's
Destruction of evidence-huge amounts
White epoxy paint to cover-up DNA on rocks
Salary for staff to paint rocks and removal of evidence
Payment to retract confession-June 11
Purchase Cyberzone café-keep ramirez-kalpoo family happy
Lawyer fees-(jurin-16, dk-4, sk-2, freddy-2, pvds-?)
U.S. Lawyer fees

It's hard to believe that the PTB in Aruba do not understand how important it is for them to bring resolution to this case.  Closing it brings not only non-resolution, but the end of hope of resolution.

The only thing keeping this from becoming so much worse for Aruba, was our HOPE that they would bring resolution.  Without that HOPE, I'm feel they have just unleashed a TSUNAMI of bad PR, and continued economic woe.  They have successfully destroyed the brand called "ARUBA". 

 We could take up an entire thread if we listed them all.:lol: :lol:

Mum,
We might even need a separate blog.
Notice there are no expenses to search for Natalee nor to solve the case!

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2008/01/x-persistence.html

Update:
04-Jan-1557 hrs
The skies are clear and the winds are strong and steady. Wind 25kts gusting 30+. Seas 5-6ft, with the occasional 10ft+ swell. The seas are too rough to run sonar into the seas, so we shift to a different grid with lines running perpendicular to the dominant swells. Working in side-seas produces somewhat cleaner data, but takes a heavy toll on the crew rolling and heaving about inside the boat.

(http://bp2.blogger.com/_d8XtKIwObt4/R36SyODWjOI/AAAAAAAAAK8/L33lGaFN6ok/s400/High_seas.jpg)

Dr. Andrew Hodges - Where is Natalee Holloway?

Youtube videos

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=forensicthoughtprint

Short interview with Anita after her husband is arrested. She tells the Interviewer Joran was warning them that PVDS would be picked up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJlpM_JCwks

Yes, working and lurking.  It's rough as hell out here.  We're forced to dead-dead into the seas north and run our lines southward downseas.  We'll keep this up for a while and see how goes. 

correction for a typo... that would be "dead-head", not "dead-dead". Is there a way to correct a reply once it's posted?

No,unfortunately not  :-? Hang in there Kyle!! Hopefully the seas calm down  :sad:

Hope you don't get sea sick.  How long are they predicting
the rough weather to last?

How long will the bad weather last?  Until spring.  It's seasonal.  Relatively calm in the summer, perpetually rough in the winter. We've been fortunate this far.

I just looked up Marine Conditions in Aruba.
They are expecting the high winds and seas for the
next five days.
Winds to 35 mph and 7 foot waves.

If there is anything we can do,please don't hesitate to ask. I know you all have planned this for a very long time so I presume most everything is researched. Even so,we are here to help!

Wear your sunscreen!  Those high winds will age you
and you will look like Julia Renfro. :lol:

Hope the seas calm for you soon, Kyle.  You guys are great, keep up the good work!

PERSISTENCE = HOPE  

Actually, it would be great if the Monkeys et al., could come up with a verifiable timeline for the alleged disposal.  ie: -How long were they gone, how is this known (w/sources) min/max.  Then we can do a little comparison.  That might be a good excercise if interested.

I forgot to mention.. please include those discussions in the Ocean Search thread so I don't have to sort through pages of Case Discussion.  ~Thanks.

Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est

We can do that Kyle,As you know there are several theories out there,but the first one that comes to mind was that of Natalee's Freebirds..What do you guys think? It's tough task as information about whereabouts and timeliines is sketchy,but lets see what we can come up with.

 :smt046

I think the Freebirds have certainly thought it all out.  I'm impressed.

******* - I'm going to let you take charge of this.  I'm working and can't do it right now.  Natalee's Freebirds have the best info if they have what Kyle's looking for.

KYLE THIS WEBSITE HAS A GOOD EXPLAINATION OF WHAT TOOK PLACE AND WHEN AND HOW


IN THE FACE OF EVIL


What was going on between 7:00 pm and 8:30 pm?

We believe this is when Paulus and Joran took Miss Holloway's remains out to sea on the Gottenbos boat. Here Joran sets himself up to be highly visible that night after 8:00 pm .


Part 3 detailed the most likely movements of Paulus van der Sloot during this time, and here now are Joran's activities for this timeframe.

JORAN SAYS TENNIS LESSON ENDED AT 7:00, HE SHOWERED AND THEN CALLED ANDRE ANDRE AGREES TO MEET HIM AT 8:00 AT THE WYNDHAM

Approximately 19.00 pm, I was ready with playing tennis. I showered in the clubhouse. After I had finised showering I got dressed. Then I called "Andre". We had agreed that we would meet at the Wyndham Hotel at approximately 20.00 pm to play poker.
JVDS 6-14

JORAN SAYS HE ALSO CALLS GUIDO AND ASKS HIM TO GO TO THE WYNDHAM GUIDO DECLINES SAYING HE HAS TO WORK, BUT MIGHT COME LATER

Approximately 19.00 pm, I was ready with playing tennis. I had then also called Guido. Guido had told me that he had to go to work. He would come later and try to enter the tournament for half time
JVDS 6-14

According to Paulus, this conversation took place in person, not over the phone. What then was the true nature of this phone call from Joran to Paulus at around 7:00 pm?

Giving confirmation that the boat was at the launch and ready to go?

JORAN SAYS HE THEN CALLED PAULUS TO ASK PERMISSION TO GO TO THE WYNDHAM TO GAMBLE

Approximately 19.00 pm, I was ready with playing tennis. I showered in the clubhouse. After I had finised showering I got dressed. I had also called my father and asked if I could play poker at the Wyndham Casino. My father gave me permission.
JVDS 6-14

Then we have Joran claiming to have been bouncing from one casino to the next for the hour of 7:00 - 8:00 pm



http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/10/in-face-of-evil-may-30-2005_19.html

Will do..Very tough task,but I know there are a lot of great researchers here who can help. I'll post the Freebirds theory on the other thread.

The most sensible scenerio that I have seen was the Freebirds theory
that they took Koen's Sea Pro boat out from the public marina near
the Marriott on the evening of May 31st prior to 8:00PM

Thx guys and I agree,Hard to come up with facts and timelines about a sea disposal but the Freebird Theory comes to mind first. If anyone can find anything please post it!!

If you are reading this blog and may know something now is the time to relieve your conscious. You can post your thoughts/info on the Front Page and be totally anonymous. Koen and Sander,this is never going to end until Natalee is found!

I see Kermit already did it..Thanks! :wink:

What time was the "ping" from the cell phone that night from
out in the water?
Where's Janet? 

From Jane at BFN

01/03/2008 at 08:30 am in Department 69, Edward A. Ferns, Presiding. Motion to Dismiss (Motion for Stay of Order; Motion for Substitution of Personal Representative for Deceased Deft.; Case Management Conference; OSC RE: Plaintiffs' Failure to Appear on 12-7-07) - Not Held-Continued

Future Hearings:

02/05/2008 at 08:30 am in department 69 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
(1) Motion Pro Hac Vice (Introduction of new Plaintiff Attorney)
(2) Motion to Dismiss (by Defense)
(3) Motion for Substitution of of Personal Representative for Deceased Defendant (replace Skeeters estate for Skeeters)
(4) Motion for Stay of Orders (Plaintiffs attempting to reverse Order to Compel)
(5) Case Management Conference
(6) OSC RE Failure to Appear on 12/7/07

02/29/2008 at 08:30 am in department 69 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012. Motion to Compel ((2))

Kyle,

That Freebirds theory is the only thing I see at the moment. Because we aren't privy to the dossier much of everything is speculation and rumor or psychics. What we did see in the few PV'S much of it they lied about. There has been very little talk about a boat being used and who may have been involved in disposing of Natalee that can be considered fact. I'M sure TJ Ward,Dave Holloway and Bo Dietl have better info compared to what is on the internet.

is it worth a chance to talk to mos about their timeline for jvds that night.  they definitely have a better chance of verifying times and alibis and might be willing to share that information with persistence.  this is a different set of people you'd be dealing with and i really think mos would be willing to help in any way he could, particularly if he could do it without having to pay for it with media attention and static from the defense lawyers.  man to man always works best, in my experience.
dennisintn

Why doesn't someone just ask Jossy for some of this info...Mos would need to explain how he knew Natalee was in the ocean...just as how would van der Straaten know Natalee was dead.  The PTB will not help...they can't without incriminating their favorite sons.

Lala is right!  Jossy has great time lines I think.  Have Tim ask Jossy, if that is not a comfortable conversation for you, Kyle!  You are in our prayers! 

B.1     Pro Hac Vice a procedure necessary when an attorney is not an admitted member bar of the state of jurisdiction.  So this is either a Taco Bell type or an out of country type, that is if the state of California entertains attorneys from other countries.  So it looks like the "plaintiffs" are seeking to add an additional member to their "legal team" AKA agents of misdirection.

Pro Hac sort of sums it up, doesn't it?   :lol:

I was just thinking of Jan VDS,He knows exactly what happened to Natalee and where they buried her.No way would he help frame innocent people,break laws and risk his own neck if he didn't know what his friends the Van Der Sloots did with her.MO He was guiding people in the opposite direction. Problem is that he is very close friends of PVDS and will never tell. The only way he would ever tell is if they offered him a deal to avoid being in fricken prison where he belongs. We know Aruba doesnt make deals nor have they made any attempt of exposing any part of the cover up.

They could do this all anonymously,but they are basterds and its still in the Aruban Govts/AHATA'S best interest that she is never found. 31 Months in the ocean,I doubt there will be any forensic evidence unless she was shot,major head injury or they dumped evidence alongside of her. It's obvious they dont want to prosecute anyone or reveal the truth,but a anonymous tip where her remains could be found would do everyone a lot of good. But then again,this was a neandrathol investigation and they keep saying they cant prosecute without a body. If she is found we will all expect a trial and thats the last thing the Aruba wants.IMO

Could be another attorney from that same law firm in Chicago right? I wonder if they produced anymore documents like Judge Nit Wits letter said they would?

My point exactly. 

Have we ever made any connections between the PTB on Aruba and the North Korean arms thing that Beth mentioned in her book? 

I don't agree with the timeline of the Freebirds.
Why:
a.) Deepak was at work until about what ? Eleven ? that Monday night.
b.) It was still light outside that time of the evening.
Deepak met Joran at the Casino and there was something very hincky about the time line later that night. There was some missing time. If there was nothing to lie about later that evening, why lie ?  Andre Dos Santos' PV seemed about the most reliable and open as I don't believe he was under any influence to not tell the truth, he was just a bystander that Monday night.The truth could have been told and it could have been backed up by the witnesses he had who saw him in the casino.
For that reason, I think that the boat was launched later and it was done around the same time Beth was arriving.   
..ps I also don't buy the fish trap thing. That happened the Sunday and I just don't believe they were that organized up at that point. Some other container,
weighted down.The radar in Aruba, it is upgraded now, but it wasn't then. If a small boat went out just past the sandbar, why would it be an event worth noting at the time ? How long would it take in a SpeedPro to go and come back ? Ten minutes. Joran was moving between casinos for a reason.   

That sounds like a tough task to expose. I wonder if that is why the FBI and our Govt are so quiet? If they are aware that Aruba is involved in dealings with N.Korea and Covering up Natalee's murder what are they waiting on?

There was an article - or some kind of meeting I believe in 2005 where Oduber and North Korea was present.  I don't remember exactly what the meeting was now but I remember we discussed it at the time. 

Ok, I can't turn the TV on because of Ms. Spears. I might become nauseated, so I rented some films, Munich and the Curse of Golden Flower ( subtitles ! !  )

Well, to me a nuclear arms dealer would be more threatening than a mafia boss.  Both are dangerous, but I tend to think the North Koreans would operate on a take no prisoners basis when dealing with small fish on Aruba.

I must have missed it...what were Oduber and North Korea discussing, do you remember?  Makes sense to me that Chavez would certainly be interested in meeting this NK dude too.

Somebody smarter than I am needs to research this.
MTR Gaming Group owns a large share of the Mid Pacific Bank
on Aruba.  Mid Pacific Bank does a large share of business
with the bank in Maucau where the US froze the assets of
North Korea to get North Korea to shut down their neculear plants.
I bet there is a Posner connection.

OK, just a thought...don't anyone throw anything at me....what if you could deal drugs and arms at the same time?  No one would bother you, because they would know you are untouchable...untouchable... I didn't say it...I just thought it. :roll:

I first was made aware of the North Korean Arms theory from Rob (where the hell is he anyways? -- I know some here despise him for some reason).
I STILL think there is some merit to this (or something equally as big) involving International Diplomacy/Security that is keeping the U.S. Government from making a big splash in Aruba just yet.

Lala's, Chavez was at the meeting and so was North Korea - the meeting was in China or someplace.  We were just saying how it figures Oduber would be there.  This was early in the case.

I left a msg to Rob Yesterday and he never got back to me. I called because others said he is MIA :(

Does any one else think she was taken to sea on the Monday night ?
And not in a cage ?
What time was that phone call from PVDS to Joran where there was the mix up as to where he was ? I think they were just getting back in from the water.
Where do the Gottenbos usually launch their boat from ? A SeaPro doesn't have to be launched from a marina ? Just a deserted beach where the water is shallow.  Walk in walk out.
I am not fixated on this, but Kyle has asked the question for a reason. Time, tides, weather conditons could be different from 7 to 8 pm / and much later, say 2 am. I would not like if just one reasonabe ( Freebirds ) theory was presented to Kyle.
And by the way, I did Google Kyle and he has an amazing CV.

Kat:

I agree,I believe Natalee was reburied and put into the ocean after Natalee's Family arrived. I can count at least three different people that claim she was buried on the island. Chances are at least one of them told the truth. I believe Dompig is being honest when he is giving his theory that Natalee may have been moved around at least twice.

Dompig speculates the body was hastily buried once, and that those extra accomplices may have been needed to move it to a more hidden location.

Authorities Believe Holloway’s Body is on the Island; They Suspect It Was Moved to Avoid Detection and Then Re-buried

Dompig tells correspondent Troy Roberts that investigators believe Holloway’s body is on the island, but suspect it was moved to avoid detection and then re-buried.

“He [the witness] wanted to talk about the fact that he knew more about the whereabouts of Natalee….concerning a specific burial location…. The information that this person gave was too specific to just be a story that was just made up by someone.” Dompig (CBS)
------------------------------------------------
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/cartoonnatalee.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/shallowgrave.jpg)

I was just curious what people managed to ferret via the web about the alleged disposal. I find it fascinating how resourceful and imaginative people can be.  I suppose it beats playing windows solitare, or watching night time drama on TBS. Hopefully, when this is over we'll see who was right on the mark and who missed it completely.  Personally, I've always been a fan of Occam's Razor, but I won't comment on whether or not I feel it applies in this case.

Oh well, if North Korea is important, I 'll go and watch CNN and their Britteny Spears extravaganza.

 :-x


if she was in the water, there would be massive pledge to stop it

There is/was. Joran's attorney filed a motion to disallow any evidence found by The Persistence even before it set sail!!!

Yes, there is a reason and I am certain that is a part of it...there are those on Aruba that have connections that are not just with drugs...I have been giving this a lot of thought lately.

I could provide you with pages of alleged disposals about Natalee on land. However its not going to help you in your search in the ocean. One guy says he buried her in a shallow grave with 2 others,another says he saw all the perps bury her at the landfill,another claims he has vital info about the dunes. None of it panned out because she was probably moved or it was wrong info.IMO

Tim will tell you about that shallow grave that was found in the park,I know he stated that he thought something was buried in it just previously to them finding it.

(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/captaru10307132005arubabj8_th.jpg)

Hiya Monkeys

Lalas are you thinking about the guy on Aruba who's name seems to stir up a tizzy here?

hmmm.. yes i remember that
and i know what you mean
but there would be more bitching from law enforcement folks


i think  :cool:

I knew someone would be able to help me..I don't do research too well though.  I never know where to start.

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 5:48 pm
The simplicity of Occams Razor is often outweighed by the complexity of maintaining factors in an elemental state

Well, yes. Very isolated...no one speaks of him...he's known as a crazy person...he deals drugs...lives high and has parties.  It's not that large a leap from drug dealing to arms dealing. Would you not need to launder arms money as well as drug money? MOO

Robots - can you email me when you get a chance?  I can't find your email addy  :wink:

smklaas@hotmail.com

Uh oh!  You're going to the principals office now.    :roll:

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Most arms dealers are also in the pharmacy business and have laundromats.

OT/SORRY!

Yapperz? Took me a LONG time to find the perfect Valentine Avi for you, but, by dingy, I think I've found it!  :wink:

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Valentine%20Avatar/vyp.gif)

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

ROFLMAO I love it CBB. My kissin cow is ready for Valentines Day!!! TYVM

Don't you think an arms dealer and an island that is in bed with the North Koreans could be more of a threat to keep your mouth shut than the gambling part of the mafia?  I think so...we all know about Posner and his gambling...no reason to be a threat to anyone.  But...if you provide services to the high rollers with lots of money to spend....that is another thing all together.  Not that it has any connections to Natalee's disappearance...just that you might keep your mouth shut and let things go in order to maintain the status quo.  I guess I am not making any sense at all.  :roll:

The cartoon was published, iirc, on 6/5/05...we never did find out if the artist had inside information.  Within 4 days he draws & publishes a cartoon that has the shallow grave & other supposed clues...

Occams razor....outweighed by complexity of maintaining factors in an elementary state.   Guess it is hard to keep it simple.   :2doh:

We all have theories, and mine have changed over time. I used to be absolutely sure she had been placed in the landfill. About the time they located the kiddie pool mentioned by Jossy's witness, I was just sure.

I'm not so sure anymore, and between the crab trap being missing and the suspects being seen near where the trap was stolen, I think the chances she is in the ocean, are good. Was she buried hastily awaiting the opportunity for a sea disposal? Possibly. I'm sure Papa Sloot was involved in the ultimate disposal, and he's not nearly as Big Mouthed as his son.

oceanexploration:

I'm searching for theories of the disposal and will post links (or other info) as I find them.  I'm sure you probably already know about this one but I'm posting it just in case.  I'd looked for a while earlier today but had the same opinion as ******* concerning most of the information I found.

Hodges theory:
http://forensicthoughtprints.com/natalee-holloway-watery-grave.html

OT
I ran across Rob on another forum about a week and a half ago.  He waved when I signaled  and then was gone. Anyone check his website?

Klaasend or ******* (or any one else that can)

If you want to move my last post to the ocean search thread, it's fine with me, I meant to post it there :oops:  thanks!

On new years eve he put loving natalee episode#63 up..The music is pretty funky,,Rick James?  :P

http://zoltanzion.blogspot.com/

this is probably something that's going on his permanent record.  downright ominous sounding.
dennisintn

lol,

im in trouble all the time - everywhere i go it seems  :cool:

you know for years i have been telling people

"jimmy crack corn and i dont care"

nobody tells me what to do, i have a brain and i will use it..

but it does seem to aggitate a few folks.... like my parents  :cool: :lol:

I wonder where Harry Ho heard that from? All I saw was the Vigilante newspaper from Curacao that said Steve Croes may have been involved in breaking into the huts the night Natalee dissapeared.

Also, let us not forget that Deepak communicated regularly with Steve Croes. Steve Croes was seen breaking into the Fisherman's Huts on the night of Natalee's disappearance. And, for no reason, Steve Croes agreed to lie about the Holiday Inn drop-off. Steve Croes has access to a motorized, inflatable Zodiac (inflatable boat), tied up at the Marriott pier.

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/09/harrytho_tuesda_1.php

This Harry Ho is a idiot,but this part of commentary is interesting. Would be nice to see Jug come back on SM Radio. I would like to hear his thoughts on Karen Janssen.
------------------------------------------
Jug Twitty commented on the recent meeting between Dave Holloway and Karin Janssen, and he enlightened Greta as to why he is so upset with Karin Janssen, the prosecutor. This interview, despite its default into the typical Twitty-Holloway response, provided some insights never before discussed. First, Jug stated that he felt that there was nothing satisfying that emerged from Dave's four-hour meeting with Janssen. Greta then queried Jug over his dissatisfaction with Janssen. Jug revisited a heated discussion with Janssen on 28 August, the last time Janssen spoke with Beth or Jug. Jug commenced with a disagreement with Janssen over the issue of whether or not that blood was discovered in the suspects' car. Jug insisted that the FBI stated that there was blood in the car. Janssen retorted that the alleged blood was in fact cleaning fluid. Jug vehemently disagreed with Janssen. Second, Jug spoke of three American witnesses who overheard implicating statements made by the suspects: Joran and Deepak. These statements, Jug says, were ignored by the Aruban investigators. According to Jug, Janssen told them to get sworn statements from these witnesses in the USA. Jug said they got a federal judge to take the statements; however, Janssen refuses to return calls to Jug and Beth concerning what to do with these statements.

Now comes the fun part. Jug was stunned when Janssen revealed family problems with Natalee. Jenssen questioned the $1 Million life insurance policy taken out on Natalee. Further contestation led to queries by Jenssen about Jug's brother's money laundering activities. At this point, Jug admitted that he is high strung. However, he feels that Jenssen is either hiding or has no backbone.

Jug takes a few breaths, then continues with the statement that Jenssen will not admit that she erred when releasing the three suspects. He ridicules her response that they were trying to catch the three red-handed exposing the crime. Jug chuckles that their entire, nine-day, surveillance effort of the three suspect produced absolutely nothing.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2500.new#new

Update: 05-Jan- 0025 hrs

The wind and seas have not let up at all throughout day and night. Working in the rough conditions is taking its toll on some of the crew. Regardless, spirits and hope remain high as we push onwards. Working in side-seas proved unrealistic. The last resort is to dead-head straight into the seas without recording and acquire data with the swells moving with the vessel. Although time consuming, at least production is maintained even though it is at half the rate.

Many have confused adventure with inconvenience, trading the provocative for status quo. I believe exploration both in terms of our surroundings and within ourselves is the essence of human spirit. When denied, we're left feeling isolated and unknown. When we have the courage to search these depths, we learn the most about who we are and hopefully a thing or two about each other and our surroundings.

http://www.nholloway.blogspot.com/

American witnesses? 

The night/early morning the family & entourage arrived...I'm thinking it was someone with them when they were at the VDS home...jmo

Yes, you are right. Thanks.  I am glad you finally got out of the bathroom...too bad you are now assigned to laundry.  :roll:

Oh, I have said a few times on here that the War on Terror trumps a rape and/or murder anytime.

Sounds like they may be getting a bit of cabin fever.
A weekend on shore would probably do them all a
world of good....solid ground and good food always help.

I can't find a North Korean connection but I see the Aruban Police decided go with the Hyundai Tucson's(South Korea) for the force. I believe it's the same car as the sloots drive.

News Conference with Peter De Witte and Rudy Croes showing off the new ALE vehicles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjyAtSgxLkA

Yes, his name was Fig Nation.  A figment of Dan Rhiel's imagination.

I check it often. I go everywhere...I roam, lol.

Good Morning!.....that cartoon gives me the creeps every time I see it!

Anyone else think that one cloud looks like a surviellance plane?

I have always seen a LOT of things in that cartoon. Yes, that "cloud" looks sorta like an "AWACS" plane. The weirdest thing is the date of the cartoon (6-5-05) -- there are SO many relevant things in it that no one knew about at such a early date in this case!

This is what I believe also.

Hi wreck! The numbers 3 and 5 in the sky, I believe means 5 suspects not 3 and I wonder if the 18 refers to simians posts about our 'favorite passtime'...'fielder or slogger'.

It has always bothered me as to why a Canadian cartoonist would not comment on this!

 :lol: :lol:

Does anyone see anything peculiar under the hatch marks on the upper left hand corner?

I'm not a Shango/Simian scholar, so please forgive me if I don't get the Shango reference correct.

One Shango/Simian thing that always stuck with me was the comment like "they didn't want bloody Mary's, they wanted virgin Mary's".

I always thought the "bloody Mary" reference was to the legalized prostitution, prostitutes, and any sexual slaves on the island.

Would someone in government want to be seen with this element?  Frequenting these establishments? 

What has happened to government people when they've been caught with their hands in the proverbial cookie jar?  Do they go to jail?  Lose their jobs?  Or, do they just send the illegals home?

I look at all the comments/accusations that have been tossed towards Natalee Holloway and her families and I have to scratch my head.  What did Natalee ever do to anyone on Aruba to garner these negative comments and accusations? 

She is still disappeared.  Irregardless of her circumstances, she disappeared while in the company of J2K and hasn't been seen since.

No fishermen report seeing her, no black couple on the beach has come forward to claim they saw her (that I am aware of), nothing so much as a flip flop has been found. 

What happened to the son of the high government official that had some trouble with an American tourist girl?

Is there a "get out of jail free" card tatooed on some foreheads?  Neithe above the law, below the law, or within in the law.  Untouchable. Teflon coated men.  Nothing ever sticks, and they like it that way.

With all the great legal minds on the island and in the Netherlands, why can't they think of a way to level the playing field?  Make justice transparent?

Why were two security guards searched and locked up so quickly?  Those that implicated them, apparently lied about many things in just a few days.  No one searched those homes for years. 

Why is there such a difference?  The two security guards were immigrants.  Those that implicated them were the sons of judges and other island elite. 

Are the words of some more important than the words of others?  Should all words be given the same weight until they are proven false?  When some words are proven false, why would law enforcement continue to believe them?

Have the legal scholars come up with a way to level the playing field? 

What happened to integrity?

Sorry Mere...I am not sure where to look...do you mean where all the scribbling is? TIA

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/cartoonnatalee.jpg)
Even the "angel" looks like Anita!

WhiskeyGirl...I am not smart enough to translate Shango and Simian, but will keep your question in mind next time I'm reading their posts. I used to be good at riddles, but for me these are really hard. Maybe it is because I don't have an IQ of 149 like Simian does.  :roll:

look at the bottom right -- an arrow down to "a drink within a drink". At 6-5-05 these "theories"  were simply not out there yet.

wreck .... that 'angel' kicks me in the stomach every time I see it! Just read an old post about Anita that said 'the Mom was not detained' and another that said ' you're wrong, she went in and came out 5 minutes later'. Paraphrased both as I didn't save them!

Keep forgetting to tell you ....I love your train!

Those theories were not out in the public yet.  The parents were searching crack houses, etc.

There would have to be time for the movement of information from witnesses, and the creation of the cartoon. 

Perhaps Natalee's remains were found by authorities as early as day two (Monday or Tuesday).  Keeping them would have certainly answered some questions.  I don't think the story developed as some thought. 

I wonder how many witnesses there are?

Where was the cartoon published?

In the corner to the side of the sign that says days until you will be kidnapped looks like it could be a cage of some sort?

Was the arrest of the two security guards a warning to others?

Do those that run the government own the government?  Is it a form of dictatorship?

Who takes the risks and rewards of government?

Does someone own the judiciary?  Prosecutors office?  Law enforcement?  Do they function independently?

Who is responsible for the way these government bodies conduct themselves?

Who decides what the conclusion of any investigaiton should be?

Bringing these posts over from the Theories thread re dates and a quote Buckeye posted:


Found this scanning the Front Page posts in date order:

June 5th
                  1. Mattress found at around noon and not related to Natalee
                  2. Dompig says hold your breath  for 24 hours-there are developements

June 7th…     1. local boy found dead … Not Natalee
             …    2. accidental death not ruled out by authorities
                   3. rumor that search called off

June 9th…..J2Ks arrested

June 10th…    1. press briefing cancelled - no reason given
                   2. sightings of Natalee

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


June 4th   dutch marines search beach areas
                Police ATVs and helicopters search Arashi Beach area

June 5th   searching the St. Nicholas and Seroe Colorado Lighthouse areas

June 6th…searching Santa Cruz  and Valero areas

June 7th…Authorities said some searchers focused Monday on the eastern tip of the island, the same area searched Sunday by Dutch marines.

   ----------------------------------------------------------------

quote buckeye


There was digging off and on at the lighthouse, but I did save this.  Written by Hannah Wolfson in AJR regarding the night of the confession:

Some of the mistakes were harder to explain. Late one Friday night, CNN reported that at least one of the suspects had confessed. AP quickly followed with a report that he was leading police to the evidence. Moments later, a half dozen news crews sped down a pitch-dark dirt road toward an abandoned beach where police were supposedly digging up a body. Nothing. Officials ranging from the original source right up to the prime minister quickly denied the initial reports.
As guiltily competitive as the rest, I crept out later that night with a Birmingham television crew that was filming distant, spotty footage of men digging in the dunes – probably just local bootleggers pulling up their stash of booze.

GEL  I enlarged that a little this morning will go back and make it even bigger.

Wow..that is hard on the eyes!

Will retract my post about the number 5 in the sky, it is a lower case 'b'. Jaime's nickname is 'beto' and I also see the letter 'z'.

Sorry, I could not make head nor tail of the top left hand corner.

Original site of cartoon with article by Karl Penhaul

http://cartoons.diberardo.com/recent-political-cartoon/girl-murdered.php

Mere...Thanks!


Frank...if you are here, I'm trying to find a link for you...check back later!

LOL Mum, I am going to have to quit looking. THe more I do the more I see that's probably not there. :shock:

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/CMPM/cartoonist.jpg)
Anthony Diberardo


About the Cartoonist:

Biography
by: Carmine Funt

Anthony Diberardo is a Canadian political cartoonist who was born on the 27th of October 1476, in Canada. He spent most of his early childhood ignoring others, choosing instead to visit "happy-land". He showed artistic potential early on, often cartooning for cigarettes.
At the age of 10 he won the prestigious Royal Award for Artistic Excellence*.
He went on to win several other awards in his teen years*.

He majored in Fine Art at the University of Guelph.

In the fall of 2002 he left on a wonderful journey to South East Asia where he contracted several of the more well known STD's. There was also a brief battle with some sort of skin fungus.

For a year he taught English and Art to "a great bunch of kids", about 700 a week or so. He recalls walking into the grade three classrooms where the students used to stand and cheer, "art class!". "That made me feel really good. It was then I knew the $40,000 I spent on my degree was really worth it."

After he had his fill of street noodles, dried fish snacks and vomiting children, he drank beer in Europe for a while.

He ended up teaching again to support his "habits". This time, however, it was to university students- all English, no art. It was good. They were "a great bunch of kids".

After getting kicked out of Poland he made his triumphant* return to Southern Ontario.

Oh yes, during this time, and without even entering, he won several prestigious international awards.*

Currently he is a canadian political cartoonist who displays his work on the web, cartoons.diberardo.com, and in numerous publications*.

View diberardo's cartoons: they probably will not bite you.

* This may or may not be true, and by may I mean definitely not true.

http://cartoons.diberardo.com/about-cartoonist.php

One Sunday morning about 2 years ago, JerseyMom and I were discussing this photograph and its artist, and a new poster popped up who answered the questions about it in a somewhat belligerent manner, as if he knew the artist or was the artist.  Poster never came here again to my knowledge, so I am assuming if the poster was the artist or knew the artist, he/she was guilty of more than second-guessing.

There is a sketch of a man standing behind someone bent over.....very similar to the clips from the porn video in Deepak car....but I don't see a mask....

Frank....I posted this the other day....Check out the last link for an article by our friend Ms JA. The top link won't work :roll:

The 10-year agreements governing these facilities limit their use to counter-drug missions, mainly those of aircraft seeking to detect and monitor illegal drug-smuggling in the huge “transit zone” between the Andes and the United States’ southern border.
The agreements governing all three sites will be up for renewal within the next four years


news.nacla.org/2007/09/18/monitoring-the-us-military-presence-in-latin-america/



Forward Operating Location (FOL). Funding was provided to maintain and operate the FOL in Aruba. This FOL
consists of 1 facility which is a building. FOL Aruba provides an overflow capability to facilitate counterdrug detection and monitoring operations within the USSOUTHCOM AOR. FOL Aruba provides communication and contracting support to aircrews. (PC9500) Total FY05 Funding: $1.534M. Cost breakout is as follows:
·   Bandwidth expense ($500K) ·   
             Civil engineering/contracting support to building/ramp projects ($552K)
·   Direct support to include Air Expeditionary Forces Communication person per diem and travel, lodging, environmental baseline study, and miscellaneous contracts ($430K)
·   Air Combat Command Program Management System expense ($50K)
·   Base operating support contract support ($2K)

http://www.ciponline.org/colombia/blog/archives/000347.htm








Interesting article from someone we have discussed. Very interesting!


http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/48722.pdf

Lol GEL..I know what you mean!

Thanks Tyler....I do recall several posters tried to contact him, but he did not respond.

Prior the June 7, 2005 published cartoon .... Diberardo had to have been privy to inside information pertaining to Joran's May 31, 2005 missing declaration ... the missing declaration.

Deepak and Satish May 31, 2005 declarations imply that that Joran must have diverted from the Holiday Inn fabrication.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++++

http://cartoons.diberardo.com/recent-political-cartoon/girl-murdered.php
Search continues for teen missing in Aruba
Government workers join hunt for Alabama woman
Tuesday, June 7, 2005 Posted: 9:37 AM EDT (1337 GMT)


Joran Van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 14, 2005

At approximately 12.30 (May 31, 2005) my dad and me had arrived at Bubali police station. I was interviewed as a witness. I cannot remember that in my statement I had said that I had been at Fisherman's Huts with Natalee. I might be possible that I stated that.


Deepak Kalpoe
Witness Statement
May 31, 2005

On your question if Joran and the girl had stepped from my car at the Fisherman’s Huts and walked by the sea; I will answer you no.


Satish Kalpoe
Witness Statement
May 31, 2005

On your question if Joran and the girl had gotten out of the car at the Fisherman’s Huts and walked by the sea; I answer you no. Joran and the girl never got out of Deepak’s car.


Beth Twitty
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
September 14, 2005

TWITTY: Well, Rita, like I said, we‘ve been worried as early as June 1 when we saw torn statements at a police station.

Tamikosmom.... is this the one you mean? Or maybe this is the revamped one!

Joran van der Sloot

Name: loran van der Sloot
Date: 31 May 2005 111:20
Pages: 5
Writer/initiator. Dennis Jacobs / Shaniro Kelly
Description: statement as a witness

Name: Joran van der Sloot
Date: 31 May 2005 / 11;20
Pages: 6 (1 attachment)
Writer/Initiator: Marcelino Ras I Ghrizanti Tromp
Description: statement as a witness and indication of an area

Re the cartoon:

The hatch marks at the upper left appear to cover something...also drawn with straight lines...so it is necessary to print the cartoon and use good lighting and perhaps a magnifying glass.  I see at the very edge of the paper under the hatchmarks a larger house and then a small one room house-type figure next to it.  I always thought that referred to Joran's apartment.

I'll stop as I know that we have covered this off and on for the past 2+ years.  It has always been a mystery.  It looks like Karl may have been his source.

Mere...when I had it up to 400% I could see a house. Sorry, who is Karl, is he the CNN reporter? TIA

Karl who? 

LOL...I think Mere left and all I can think of is Nancy Grace's Karl Penhaul, but I really don't have a clue other than that!

Do you think that the topic of discussion from last night might 'shock the world'? TIA

WOW...he is older than Robots!!  :P

Anthony Diberardo is a Canadian political cartoonist who was born on the 27th of October 1476, in Canada.

If you are talking about the nuclear arms...I would think so to some extent. It certainly trumps two bit drug dealers any day.  Which reminds me of another idea but I am actually afraid to say anything without approval...let me just say it involves the Russian mafia and North Korea.  These two countries would have a common goal and if they are working on it together...well then...you have the bigger fish to fry right there. MOO

Mum ... in their declarations .... Joran and Paulus both refer to Joran's May 31, 2005 witness questioning as well as ... the drive that he took with authorities but ... the May 31, 2005 declaration  and attachment has never been revealed.

When you take the Fisherman Hut/Marriot Beach question presented to each of the Kalpoe brothers in their May 31, 2005 witness  interrogation ... it is obvious that Joran had diverted from the Holiday Inn account in his May 31, 2005 witness statment that was given just a short time prior.

In his June 9, 2005 suspect statement ... Joran has reverted back to the Holiday Inn dropoff.  The Marriot Beach dropoff does not emerge until Joran's June 14, 2005 suspect statement.

Janet

+++++++++++++++++

Joran van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 9, 2005

We drove back to the Holiday Inn Hotel to drop Natalee off there. When we arrived there Deepak parked on the left lane and not on the right lane that lies in front of the Lobby. Natalee got out the back door on the right side and she fell to the floor. I got out of the same car door and helped her get up. After I did that Natalee said to me not to touch her and she walked into the direction/towards the lobby. I saw that she touched a pillar.


Joran van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 14, 2005

When we, on May 30th, stopped in Deepak's car in front of my house, it was about 01.40 am. At that moment in time Deepak, Satish, Natalee and myself were in Deepak's car.

When Natalee and myself were dropped off at the Marriot Hotel by Satish and Deepak it was approximately 01.50 am. After we were dropped off Natalee and myself walked to the beach in front of the Marriot Hotel.

This may be unpopular here but...if this cartoon was published 6/7/05 then all that is in the cartoon was already known.  If this guy is as good an artist as he seems...it would not take very long to draw that cartoon maybe only a few hours.  So how are we getting the idea that this was done before any of this stuff was known?  I am confused...once again. TIA

I never realized that was a house Mere until you just told me.  It could have been mentioned before but I could have missed it.  I also agree that it is the Van der Sloot house.  As far as it being Joran's apartment it could be or even the shed in the Sloot dump.

It is always good to go over things again because people miss stuff.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions. 

And, yes, that would be Nancy Grace's Karl Penhaul...lol...!

LOL...I just went back and opened the link, sorry Mere it is a pain, as I have my pop up blocker set high and go back and open links later.

Lala's is right and so was I. Kar=Penhaul and the cartoon was done on the 7th.

I wonder why he thinks it is a political cartoon?

It looks like a church with a cemetery beside it to me.
I can see a steeple.

Maybe I should have got some new glasses for Christmas...... :lol:


Somehow I miss things when I'm posting....much more focused when I'm just reading....Mum always said you can't do two things at once and do them well!



Magnolia...I seem to remember that being discussed ages ago. I did see what you said was a steeple! Concluded it was a chimney, but after further thought I don't think they need those in Aruba!

Looks lilke a toilet w/ someone bent over it to me...... :roll:

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/3363/8/

Looks like another traffic fatality.

I am a fan of simple.
I do not believe most of Dompig's theories that he passed off as fact.
Something about the timeline of the Monday evening does not add up. We don't know where Koen or Sander Gottenbos were ( they have the boat),  and there are time fragments missing where we only have Joran's word for where he was. He was in the Racquet Club and then the casinos, but there are chunks of time where he left to go home with Guido Wever and then later when Beth and Jug arrived, there was a misunderstanding as to his whereabouts.
He was moving from one casino to another, disinterested ppl to this case saw him at
several locations, but the time is not all accounted for.
We also don't know where Steve Croes was the Monday night, working on the Tattoo 
I suppose, but when did he start work and when did his shift end. He inserted himself into this case with an alibi for someone he hardly knew and that doesn't sit well with me.
I don't care who was right or who missed it. Find her and it doesn't matter .

I think Steve Croes was paid to help with the body...Paulus paid him to dispose of the body and then he paid him again to provide the HI alibi.  Only thing, Croes wasn't watching the television and didn't know the alibi  had been debunked and he fell into a trap that got him jail time and a warning to keep his mouth shut.  Steve Croes was in too deep in other things and this made him vulnerable to being blackmailed and a host of other things.  The only reason he is still alive now is because he has been silent.  That was evident when Greta caught up with him heading to the airport that day.  He made no sense whatsoever yet, he has been allowed to continue his life, as have many others, as before. I suspect his tongue was bloody right along with Joran's.

Kalpoes have kept their mouths shut....they are free.  Freddy kept his mouth shut...he's free and they arrested him on porn charges or something to that effect.  Mos knew he could not get anyone to rat out the other one even before he took this case....it's a code of silence that has that island in it's grip and until it's broken nothing will get any better.  Too much money is involved.  It's true...Money talks....and well you know the rest.

I tend to agree with you about Steve Croes. His access to boats .. ie the boat that takes the partygoers to the Tattoo and the route that the smaller boat takes. It would not look like anything suspicious to see Steve in a boat coming and going to and from the Tattoo. I think the people who would know anything are close to the Sloots or they have their own involvement in something else.
.
If there was a disposal at sea, it would have been done within the first 30 hours or so. There was no premeditation to cause her death, but the past history of the activity against tourist girls is the predictor.
 

Not  specific to disposal but a good timeline, not sure if you have seen this:

http://tinyurl.com/2a8ors

oops sorry looks like Worldjournier has taken down the timeline   :roll:

kat, i totally agree with all of this.
dennisintn

Yes, agree with that and what about a few nights after he was fired from the Tattoo, he was working as a DJ at c&c and while Greta was interviewing Beth, he is playing "another one bites the dust."

look at the shallow grave in the picture. It sure looks like a boat on it's side

You are so right!  I had never seen the boat before.  even  the area where he wrote 'shallow grave' is like where a name would be placed on a boat.  there also appears to be barnacles on the bottom, and the beginnings of a mast!!  Good observation. 

Is he wearing Joran's pimpin' shirt  :roll:

 X. Persistence

Update: 05-Jan-1610 hrs
The Persistence arrived dockside at 0500 hrs after a long night offshore. A few hours sitting still at the dock is revitalizing for a few of the beleaguered crew. Outside, the winds are unrelenting and whip the sea into angry white caps which crash onto the protective reef skirting the harbor. Even the heartiest seabirds have taken cover. The tourist submersible Atlantis II cancels its evening tour in lieu of being forced backwards by the driving currents. Inside, the Persistence is bustling with the daily chores of living on board a boat. With a whistle and a rumble, the twin Diesels comes alive without complaint. Once they’re warm, the lines are tossed and we’re off.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/

Well, TY, but it really doesn't matter does it ?
The last hope to find Natalee rests with the ship and its crew and God.
I am hoping that they are successful.
And I also hope they have some technical evidence to do with " pings " from cell phones from the three or four. 
I find the technology very interesting and have been reading up on Kyle.
I am not discounting previous searches in the water, but they did not have this equipment or these experts to use the equipment and to analyze the data and to send the ROV's down to investigate.
..
I want to backtrack on my cage issue. The cage went missing when ? We would only know that if we knew :
a) when was the last time the fishermen used or saw the cage and when did they notice that it was no longer there ? The fishermen were on the beach the late Sunday night, I guess they go fishing late. Was it what time the next night they noticed the cage was missing and the huts were broken into ?
b.) Is this a regular happening, that the Huts are broken into ?
Not everything that happened on Aruba in that narrow time period is related to Natalee. Other crimes were committed. 

You feeling lucky OE? Please god,let this be the day!!

could it be that they are not raising high and hell water because they are searching too deep? THe question would be which boats are sunk close to shore? I believe there was a boat you can see from shore that is sunk. The boat in the picture looks like a cattamaroon(spelling?). Just thoughts

Other things to note:
Natalee's "eyes closed" or missing near drink (implying she didn't see it coming)
It looks like people from the Holiday Inn are "watching" from the windows
"letters" in the sky : "m" or "3" , "i" , "v"  (any combination of these letters significant?? "M.I.V." etc.?)
the numeral "2" on each backpack strap
several more that we have discussed before!

I was clicking on some links at the bottom of an internet page and came across this. Is this a petition that we know about?

http://www.youchoose.net/campaign/boycott_aruba_for_natalee#campaignpeopletab

Sorry if this is something that everyone else was already aware of. Sometimes I lose track of things. :roll:

I think that link I just gave goes to the second page of the site, rather than to the petition page. Try this: http://www.youchoose.net/campaign/boycott_aruba_for_natalee#campaignnodetab

                                                                                                            Could someone else please go to the Ocean Search Aruba thread and read the postings for Dec 23  912AM by Blonde and Dec 25Th 758AM and see the connection that I think I see. Thanks

S Croes looks like he has lost weight.
In keeping with my Simple :
a.) Disposal done by the known suspects and ppl close to them
b.) Close to the area where they were ... the casinos .. just North of the Marriott 
c.) with what was at hand and readily available to them
We know that the three primary suspects are not part of some sofisticated organized crime operation. 
The lack of an investigation properly done is another story. That has to tie into Paulus Van Der Sloot and his former job working for Rudy Croes and Ben Vocking and his job as director of KIA. They have the connections those three punks do not to make all of this "unhappen ". The statements, etc, the NO EVIDENCE. 

Correct me if I am wrong,,but I was thinking.....
Joran was talking too much at school and Paulus picked him up.
They went to the police station and gave a statement at 12:30.
What did they do after that?
They had the afternoon to do their dirty work.
The sea disposal would have been much easier in the daylight.
Nobody would pay any attention to a small boat going out
in the afternoon.
The thing that makes me think the Gottenbos' boat was
Koen being so afraid and them moving away....but that does
not make it so.  Lorenzo could have gone out in the afternoon.

There was a catamaran that went down a few months ago.
It caught fire and had several tourist on it.
Several people on small boats in the area came to the rescue
and helped the tourist get to shore.  The boat belonged
to someone connected with the tourism bunch.
It was on the front page of the Aruban newspaper
and Renfro et al were all upset about it.

If something comes to light about the man with the DARKEST hair, and his comments on his ‘high and mighty’ status.. might lead you to this area that I see.

I asked if they could tell us more about this person,I dont have a clue who it could be?? Anyone have a idea?

Isn't there a white boat half sticking out of the water
near what used to be the pier area at the Valero village?

Hi Magnolia,As far as I am concerned they had lots of unaccounted for time after the 30th and the next few days. We know Natalee was probably dead within 5 hours so she probably was disposed of rather quickly. No sense in having a dead body laying around on the property. It's all speculation after that but she had to be buried temporarily or taken out to sea on the 30th. My guess would be PVDS got her off the property quickly on may30th and within a few days arranged her disposal by sea. Most likely with the help of Koen,SGC or Lorenzo in that order. MO I would like to hear more on why TJ Ward thinks PVDS had Colombian contacts that he may have called to take Natalee off the island.

The Gottenbo's and SGC would probably have the same launch spot but what about Lorenzo? If one of these 3 were involved they most likely just went a few miles out and did the dirty deed. No sense in risk getting caught or seen someplace suspicious with a dead body,it was probably done quickly and within 45 minutes or so from where they launched the boat. Over 300 feet of water would be sufficient,why risk going to far out if you were one of these 3 with a boat and it was May 30th to early june 2005?

I'm not finding it.  How many total comments are there in the section you're referring to?

As far as the Gottenbo's boat being the most likely vessel in disposing of Natalee I agree. What is their part in all of this? Why would Koen hide when Natalee's family drove by his house? Why would Michael Dompig tell Dave that PVDS might have used that boat to dispose of NH? We heard about how nervous koen was and Art Wood begging for him to be questioned about the boat but never was. He also lied about playing tennis with Joran on May 30th why would he lie about that?

From my recollection I believe his Father didn't want him to be questioned again and spoke for him or something. One of the people in the OM I thought even quit over this issue? We also know that Sander said his cell phone was stolen the day Natalee went missing. We know since then they sold there House,Boat and Business and fled to Georgia. While the two boys are most likely in holland.

Its pg 2 of the Ocean Search Aruba Dec 2007...I just think that its a strange coincidence that different people think She is near a sunken boat.....MO

Would you ask a friend of your son's to loan you a boat no questions asked?  Would you go to a friend and tell them you need to borrow their boat...when you probably have never borrowed their boat before?  If your son had used a friend's boat and then told you about it all, would you have the ability to cover it up and keep all involved from talking? How would you do that?  How would you keep the father of the friend from talking?  How would you keep Joran's friends quiet?  How would you stop the snowball effect that would inevitably take place if you could not stop everyone from talking?   Who has the power to make this happen?  I don't suppose I am looking for answers to these questions, instead I am just thinking out loud. 

Yes...That is it the emails about Natalee being near a sunken boat!

Thinking out loud also. If you were PVDS and a girl was raped and murdered by your son what would you do? Would you be arranging her body to be disposed of in the ocean immediately the first day? That means getting others involved because you dont have a boat and immediately deciding no one can ever find her. Or would you bury her somewhere on land so you can get her away from your property,clean up,get rid of evidence and think about the situation?

All I know is when the Family arrived he had to know they would be scouring the island looking for Natalee. With damning evidence on her body he had to make sure no one would find her. They live on a tiny island surrounded by water. She has to be out there! The whole cremation thing is just so evil,outrageous and hard to believe. Unless it was someone far more powerful than PVDS who arranged burial.IMO

I think it was the Flanigan woman who quit her job as an assistant prosecutor.
The Gottenbos' boat has been mentioned repeatedly and their actions are more
than suspicious.
Rob said that ALE searched Lorenzo's boat.  How'd they get a search warrant?

I agree Lala'sMOm.  It is not like you'd call up at wee hours in the morning or anytime during the day and ask to borrow a boat if you hadn't before.  I also doubt you'd confine in the owner of the boat by telling them you had a body or anything to bury at sea.  If you did borrow the boat, and even at the time you thought it was strange but let the person borrow the boat, you'd think when it became public that Nat was missing, and the JVD had something to do with it, you'd put two and two together.  Somewhere you'd say something to someone like, " I'm I little nervous, Paulus borowed my boat the day after that girl went missing.  Do you think I should say something?"


You are right, someone had the power to keep them quiet.  Unless Joran asked to go out on the boat with Koen or Sander, and then Paulus showed up.  Koen and Sander stupidly agreed to help or let them borrow the boat for this purpose.  When Mr. G got wind of what maybe went down, he knew he had to protect his sons, and didn't want them being questioned.  Someone let him know that if word got out about the use of the boat then it wouldn't be well with his sons, or a blackmail of some business transaction he did in the past.

There has to be more.  If the sentence is so minimum for manslaughter then I can only imagine how short it would be if you "unknowingly" lent your boat to someone for this purpose.  Or would their be any sentence at all?

More has to have been said in the general sector of the population.  How do they keep everything so hush, hush?

This is exactly why I don't think her remains would ever be on the Sloot property.  People have talked about her being buried in concrete by their pool or in their old well.  I would think they would want to be distanced from her body, so if for some reason she was located before they disposed of her, they would still have a chance to blame it on someone else.  If she was on their property then it would be a little harder to put the blame elsewhere.  I think within the first 48 hours she could have been ont he Sloot property, but once beth was down there and doing her own investigating they knew she had to go.  Plus, unfortunately, I have smelled a dead composing body.  There is no way in that heat that they'd have her on their property for long.

How did Rob know Lorenzo's boat was searched? Why would they search his boat and not every other boat on the island?

Paulus knows the less people involved the better.  This is why I almost agree with those that have the theory that Deepak and Satish know what happened to her, but they don't know exactly where her remains are.  Paulus I'm sure knows many criminals in his line of work ( Yeah ,the ones hired by the gov't too.) and would know which ones if needed he could call in for a favor.

At one time I thought maybe they had cremated her, because Pauls was so convinced that there would be no body.  But, why would they then be screaming that the Persistence might plant evidence, or Joran's lawyer wanted to make sure if anything was found by the Persistence it could be used?  They'd just laugh that the Persistence was going to all this trouble knowing that nothing would turn up.

OOPs!

Something led them to lorenzo like a tip over the phone or one of the suspects/witnesses and he became a person of interst in the first week MO. From everything that I have read they searched his boat and his mothers house and no forensics were done. Not a clue why they were at her house when he lives in Jaraweg.

They can get search warrants anytime they want and quickly like what we saw with the two security guards. We saw in beths book that the Vader character also said his boat was searched and this was just a few days after NH dissapeared. They could have just asked to look at it,since no forensics were even taken it wasnt a big deal. The Vader guy was prolly a false lead and could have been false tips provided by julia and anita to throw the investigation on a goose chase. We saw how Dennis Jacobs reacted when Beth brought Vader to Dennis Jacobs. The dirty cop probably already searched his boat and knew all about Vader Van Loen and that he wasnt involved. He didn't say squat because he knew that he was a decoy for lorenzo.IMO

Not sure how Rob knew but Scubajap,Dolores and a few others from Aruba said they searched his boat.

Sounds like they searched Lorenzo's and Van Voons boat but made no attempt on searching the Gottenbo's boat,at least not forensicly? I wonder if they were cleaning the boat with bleach the day the Family saw Koen and his Father cleaning it?

I remember Jossy saying that Deepak always became nervous when an ocean search was mentioned.  Surely, he knew she was out deep enough to not be found under normal conditions.  Wonder how many times he's checked in here to see what is going on with the Persistence...I don't think he ever thought about a ship that size.

I also can't see the Gottenbos doing Paulus any favors...I know they say blood is thicker than water but I think that only applies to extremely close relatives.  I know it was rumored they were related, but I don't think Pappa G would lie and get involved in this situation unless there was good reason.  Either he was involved in this elder thing and it's an unwritten code of some kind to help each other or his own sons were so deep in it that he had no choice. 

I admit Shango is intriging, but let's be realistic...it is only an account of what Shango thinks was the standard procedure on the island.  It could be a total fabrication of thoughts pieced together from reading the FP comments up to that point.  Don't believe me?  Then begin at the beginning and you will understand what I mean.  If you don't know anything about Simian or Shango...you can still recognize that you have already read all of it before Shango or Simian showed up by other posters....Aruban posters in fact.

I know not everyone has spent the amount of time I have reading the riddles and following up on various aspects of the stories.  But as Mum mentioned earlier...Shango might be dead.  I have seen all the various theories about Shango...nothing fits precisely into a nice little box where you can tie a ribbon on and give it away as fact. One thing I will say...if Shango is still out there...I am sure he reads here...he has to...we continuously talk about him...how could his ego deny it.  Shango if you are still alive email me cindaol@yahoo.com. Prove to me you exist!!

Simian....I know you are still out there...why won't you speak up?  You don't have to tell anyone but me.  I want some answers.  If you really care anything about Aruba and want to see this nightmare come to an end...start talking to us about the facts.  Tell us what you know.  You both can post on the FP of SM and no one will be able to track you or find you...just give us the info we seek.  One of the two of you most likely know where Natalee is....time to start talking. 

And for all you crazies out there...don't bother trying to impersonate them...I can tell who is real and who is fake...I have my ways.  Who's boat was it?  Who helped Paulus?   How many was it? How far out did they go?  Who needed an alibi?  Why hasn't anyone broken in this case? 

Can you honestly live with yourself the rest of your life knowing that there is someone's child that can't come home to rest?  What if it were your daughter or sister or mother?  Do you have a conscience?  I don't know what else to do but keep begging for someone to talk.  Think of what your own mother and father would feel if this had been you?  Can you live with that for the rest of your life and then take it all to your grave?  I don't think I could.

Okay, rant over.  Sorry, I got carried away.

When did the family see Koen cleaning the boat?  I missed that one.

Strange that there was 2 drug dealers,both dutch,both rumored to be related to the sloots and both had their boats searched.

I forget who it was,maybee Dave or Jug? He said when he drove by the Gottenbo's home they were inside of the boat cleaning it or something like that. I think he said when he drove by again,koen saw them and ducked/hid under something. I have no idea what the date was when this happened. Someone here probably knows this story better than me  :wink:

In Dave's book (page 177) he and Art Wood drove by and saw Koen and his father "working on" the boat.  This is the same day that when they drove by slowly again Koen was walking into the living room and when he saw them barrel-rolled and hid behind the couch.

If I had lived on a very small island for as many years as Paulus, I would know that
the only safe place to dispose of a body would be the deep waters of the ocean.
Now depending on whether the rumors of Lorenzo being his son are true....
I would have hidden the body away for a few hours until I could get my wits about me,
then contacted Lorenzo and told him that Joran had gotten himself in a hell of a mess.
IMO Lorenzo would have known exactly what to do and loved doing it if he is as
nutty as everyone says.

Thx TM :) Right,how could I forget about koen doing a barrel-roll!!  :2doh:

Hiya Monkeys

I know Lorenzo is a bad word here but I found this after the discussion about whether he was related to VDS or not:

http://sundaynightsatellite.libsyn.com/index.php?post_year=2006&post_month=06&post_day=18

<snip>
Dana:

Lorenzo van Rijn, has several homes one was searched the other not. What can you tell us about this guy?

JossY

I do know what our reporters have been able to find, he's a half brother of Joran. He has a boat, he lives in a secluded section of the island, very close to Joran. I don't know if he was questioned ... but ppl mention his name quite often in regard to this case.
 

Yapperz I for one remember hearing that fact from very very early in the case, before the "mis-information"  even began. I believe I see a familial resemblance between LVR PVDS and JVDS.

If you were PVDS, with a son that you doted on and he came to you and told you that :
He met a girl, a wild American girl who had been drinking heavy and doing drugs and while you were with her, she just expired, probably from the drink and the drugs she had been consuming way before she ran into you and you had panicked and just left her under some brush on the beach and said: What should you do ?
And your Dad said :Who knows about this ? And the answer was : Deepak and Satish, it wasn't like a date, it was just one of THOSE girls.
And you three had been too panicked to call the police or call 911 at the time,
so how could you now.
You Dad says, get rid of her, No body , No case, Case closed.
..
Your Dad thinks, I will do anything for my son, the sun shines out of his azz.
And your Mother says : My son is a Delicious Sporter, he did nothing wrong, except he left a girl at the beach.

Then five days later Jossy backtracked ... I wonder why?

Janet

++++++++++++++


Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER
June 18, 2007

MANSUR:  I do know what our reporters have been able to find, he's a half brother of Joran. He has a boat. He lives in a secluded section of the island, very close to Joran. I don't know if he was questioned, but people mention his name quite often in regard to this case.
 

Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER SHOW
June 23, 2007

MANSUR:  You know, as far as we know, no, we haven't been able to make that kind of a link or connection whatsoever with regard to the case. I mean the rumours are more than rumours in Aruba that they are half brothers and they have the same appearance, they have the same height, same (inaudible), there are many reasons to believe that but it has not been confirmed by themselves, the two players themselves or anyone else in the family, no

bleached. glad I'm not the only one who sees the family resemblance between those 3. :wink:

Has anyone determined if the Gottenbos' and Vandersloots are related?  I read somewhere last night that the boys were Joran's cousins from Anita's side of the family. 

Because I believe Jossy was answering regarding the drug bust.  I think Jossy was saying Lorenzo's arrest in the drug bust had nothing to do with the NH case.

Threat of lawsuit by PVDS? ...would be my guess.

Hi Yap,

He's a 28 year old guy and I do not think he would be close to Joran unless he was related or the families were close in some way. Now it just comes down to is he involved and in what way? If he was involved in the disposal then did he use his boat or did he involve his colombian contacts that TJ talked about PVDS having?

ON THE MORNING OF MAY 30, 2005 ... THERE IS A RUMORED 6:30 AM CALL FROM ONE OF THE SUSPECTS CELL IN THE SANTA LUCIA AREA OF THE ISLAND AND ... JORAN IS ALLEGEDLY PICKED UP BY THE SCHOOL BUS NEAR THE HOME OF LORENZO VAN RIJN. TJ Ward had told us that Lorenzo had armed Colombian guards at his house when he went to talk to him.

Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER SHOW
June 23, 2007

MANSUR:  You know, as far as we know, no, we haven't been able to make that kind of a link or connection whatsoever with regard to the case. I mean the rumours are more than rumours in Aruba that they are half brothers and they have the same appearance, they have the same height, same (inaudible), there are many reasons to believe that but it has not been confirmed by themselves, the two players themselves or anyone else in the family, no
----------------------------------
Dave Holloway
Question and Answer Chat - BFN
January 23, 2006

14. Why was the school bus driver called the next morning and told to pick up Joran at Lorenzo's house?
 
DAVE: Joran was allegedly dropped off at a bus stop on the main highway. The bus driver had not made it there yet and saved Paulus about 30 minutes. Lorenzo's house was nearby.
http://blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=2256.0
-----------------------------------

A reliable friend sent me this a few hours ago...thought you might find this interesting.  I have read it before, but what the heck...let's read it again.

OK I know most of the so called psychics are never accurate about Natalee's case.
However, look at this map of Renaissance Island:
 
http://hotels.about.com/od/aruba/ig/Pictures-of-Renaissance-Aruba/Map-of-the-Renaissance-Aruba.htm
 
Note the left part of the island has 9 trees drawn on it.
 
Then read this couple's review of Renaissance Island
 
 
http://www.aruba-travelguide.com/hotels/read_review.html?REVIEW_ID=288
 
<snip>
A little side note also, on the adult side (right side-with Flamingo's) off to the far right point, which you can walk out to--about 20-30 yards directly off the point is a sunken ship! Most people didn't even know this, however my wife and I ventured out and found it after reading extensive reviews all over the web. It's really cool and there are tons of fish. There's a part of the boat that is parallel with the water, and you can actually stand up on it as it's only about 2 feet under water! (this is about 30 yards out, so it looks very cool from the beach) The ship was about 100 yards or more long, and there are octopus, Morray eels etc.
 
I know it sounds crazy but what better place to hide a body than in plain view at a ship wreck? Most people are busy looking at the fish etc & not at what may be hidden inside the sunken ship. I know there are a lot of wrecks around Aruba & so would the locals.
 
 
 
 

Janet, the post I made was from a Dana Pretzer show in 2006. Jossy was talking about Natalee's case then. I do believe he had reporters who confirmed the kinship. I too think Lorenzo is a 1/2 brother to goon child & has a bigger role in Natalee's case than we know. MOO

BB,I remember interviews in Aruba on TV with one or two locals who mentioned this crazy guy with a tricked out colored van and a spray painted house even before the security guards were arrested.

*******..I have never been able to rule Lorenzo out of the equation due to the fact that his name was mentioned very early on by Aruban people on tv as well as Aruban bloggers b4 the misinformation comittee was assembled.

Well, if we are  going to discuss Lorenzo then I also think we need to discuss the 5th suspect again.  I can't seem to get Colombo to respond to me in Shango so maybe I can here....I want to know if he and his buddy Eleye still think the 5th suspect is Paulus?  That was a theory they put out there one night that sent this place into a frenzy.  I still would like to discuss it.  As I said if Lorenzo is not involved how do you explain the comment about the phone call and the bus near Lorenzo's?  Does Steve Croes work for the local drug supplier?  I think supplier is a better word for Lorenzo than dealer.  He has parties and they are what local Arubans have termed raves.  So I see him as more of a player on the big stage than menial tasks such as just dealing drugs.  He lives well, so he has a source.  With those kinds of tastes his inheritance would be dwindling down to nothing soon. OK, call me crazy, but that's what I am thinking today... at this moment.  :roll:

Very Interesting! I hope Someone checks it out....Are any of the suspects or Their friends scubadivers???

I know that Valentijn was certified in scuba and I'm assuming Joran was as well.

I remember Dompig saying that one of the Kalpoes was a scuba diver.

Lala's maybe it wouldn't hurt to put this in the Ocean Search thread for the Persistence Crew to see.....and also let them know that there are several people who are scuba divers....MOO

*******,  you just said this.....

ON THE MORNING OF MAY 30, 2005 ... THERE IS A RUMORED 6:30 AM CALL FROM ONE OF THE SUSPECTS CELL IN THE SANTA LUCIA AREA OF THE ISLAND AND ... JORAN IS ALLEGEDLY PICKED UP BY THE SCHOOL BUS NEAR THE HOME OF LORENZO VAN RIJN. TJ Ward had told us that Lorenzo had armed Colombian guards at his house when he went to talk to him.

I went to an old aruban map the other day to look for Sant Lucia, and it is out by the old "Natural Bridge".  So Thats why I don't understand the phone call. 

Correct, Santa Lucia is where the Donkey Sanctuary is which is nearer to the original Natural Bridge.  Also on the same side of the island that the piece of fabric matching Natalee's top was picked up.

I copied that particular post because it was by the Jossy quote made by Janet. I'M not sure where that call was made or sent to,I have seen Santa Cruz and southern part of the island as well.  If the call was by the old bridge then that would be in a totally different part of the island.

Right, thats what I mean.

I just found an awsome map but I have to piece it together to make it veiwable.  I'll be back when I get it done.  an hour or so.

OK..or you can upload it as is into photobucket and just post the link.

Yapper ... thank you for pointing out that I had the year wrong on that quote.

I believe that Jossy spoke the truth regarding Lorenzo's relationship with Paulus/Joran.  However ... I wonder if intimidation was the reason he back tracked.

Janet.

AZSUNNY is "In Plain View" A Quote from a Shango Clue???

Hello Janet... Did you see who won the Hockey ?
Oh Canada Our Home and Native Land ! !
I almost stood up and sang !
Junior Hockey is way better than regular hockey, those boys have heart ! 

Right Sunny...In plain view...

the Sloot car was used that night  :cool:

I agree  :cool:

Has anyone ever tried asking Lorenzo directly IF he is related to the Sloots ?
If I had his phone number, I would call and get this over with. Although, I only speak English.   

:wink:

#1  And you think you'ld get an honest answer?
#2  My bet is he speaks and understands English just fine

LOL

Not sure if this is what you mean by in plain view?  I spotted these two possibilities in the riddle, I'm still looking to make sure I didn't miss another.

Dave's Book pg 220:

Shango; Threadsurfers! What is sought is not hidden.
Possible translation; (Bloggers, the answer is out in the open)

Dave's Book pg 221

Shango; If the head of the beast is in plain view it is folly to attack protected flanks.
Possible translation; (The true criminal is out in the open while we are going after those who are protected)

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/kath8700/arubamapforklaas.jpg)

Heres a good one also

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/kath8700/arubaattmap1.gif

sssorry, eye  mus be drunk ROFL ...

:cool: :wink:

The island is so small no portion of it is out of the quesiton.  Thanks for the maps.  I hadn't seen this one.

Yes but IMO Simian was talking about the 3 vehicles that were impounded..Deepaks, and the 2 Sloot cars.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z215/kickradio/th_vacation.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z215/kickradio/?action=view&current=29adf4c5.pbw)

Ty for the maps Hotshot. I saved them so I could zoom in.
What do you think in respect to Kyle's question ?
I know that you have put more time and effort into this than me.
And done the first hand research.

Your welcome.  its the first time I have seen this map also.  They were all over the Island that night!  Not like its all that big either.  Klaas, go ahead and add to it if you wish.

I have done alot of research, but everyone here really has.  What was Kyles question?

Oh BTW Lorenzo doesnt have a number,skype,messenger, nada!!!  Been there already, LOLOL

Looking at Hotshot's map....it would have been so
easy to put in right there close to the Gottenbos'
house and go straight out to the deep water.
There would be no reason to go to the public
marina near the Marriott and the Raquet Club.
Isn't that sort of the area that the Persistence is
searching?

You can email dolores from RWV(I have her email)..She has Lorenzo's number  :wink: But she says he's not related or involved  :roll:

Kat:

Go Canada!!  :cool:

I doubt if they went to anywhere public. The spot marked where Deepak relieved his bladder looks like a likely spot.
The place is so small, it doesn't take long to get from any location to another.
Eye m not really drunk. Just tired and goofy as usual.
 

Exactly.  Yes, I believe that's one of the areas Persistence is searching.

Yes, it is.

*******, can you email me her email?

Ok..I will..Also on that Map we need to put a X where that VCB shirt was found

I did, wasnt it where the matress was found?

I was not serious about phoning Lorenzo. It wouldn't cost that much, because he would just hang up on some goofy woman calling him from Canada, Hockey Land and asking Who is your Daddy, no, I am not with the Montel Show, I am taking a survey. Got spliff ? Mon ?   

Seeing this made me think of this...

Merian Ernest Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: They call him bifrons...
Find Aruba. Find the Haystack. Find Santa Marta. Trace with your finger what the Antenna
has spoken about.

X. Persistence
 
Update: 05-Jan-1610 hrs
The Persistence arrived dockside at 0500 hrs after a long night offshore. A few hours sitting still at the dock is revitalizing for a few of the beleaguered crew. Outside, the winds are unrelenting and whip the sea into angry white caps which crash onto the protective reef skirting the harbor. Even the heartiest seabirds have taken cover. The tourist submersible Atlantis II cancels its evening tour in lieu of being forced backwards by the driving currents. Inside, the Persistence is bustling with the daily chores of living on board a boat. With a whistle and a rumble, the twin Diesels comes alive without complaint. Once they’re warm, the lines are tossed and we’re off.

Lalas, thats what I have been trying to tell Kyle. 

They should call Renfro to do their laundry. :lol:   
She has never quit bitching about doing laundry for TES.

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/kath8700/santamarta.jpg)

You don't suppose Dolores' middle name is.......oh never mind.  :roll:

Kyle writes like a much older person than he is.

Nope,the Mattress was found at Grapefield Beach and the VCB shirt and other items were found in the colony area the next day,pretty close in location though.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/Evidencefoundincolony.jpg
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1290/aruba20colony20areasmalnv7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Where was the shallow grave found by TES? When I watched the news video they said it was by the national park..I am presuming that is the Arikok Park  by that Santa Lucia area?

OK, I am going to let Klaas fix that then.  I am beat, and am going to bed....
Yes Kyle does write older then what he is.  Hey *******, guess whos in town?  Flew in from denver tonight.  OK, good night all.

Hotshot
I found an old post the other day talking about boats leaving from certain areas were not seen on radar.  I can't seem to find it now.  I thought about Lorenzo's boat then...who's to say that he didn't loan a boat to Paulus that night or maybe even Steve Croes.  Why would you do anything that you normally do right after you found out your son had a dead girl on his hands?  I just don't think she was disposed of in a hurry...this was planned out in some way.  If Joran and Deepak just got rid of her then I could believe they dumped her out from where the Gottnebos boat was. It would be easier. I don't think Deepak was involved in her disposal.

Does anyone know if Astrid van Rijn worked anywhere?   What did she do all day in that big house?

I would be willing to bet that Lorenzo wouldn't lend that Cigerette to anybody,
even if Paulus was his father.  He would only run it himself. 
Plus Cigerettes are really loud. Usually 4 / 250hp engines.
I really don't believe that the radar they have picks up small boats other than
a dot on a screen, if that.

I was just thinking earlier why her house was searched and not Lorenzos. After Paul VR died they apparently sold the car dealership and other businesses and were living off that. All we know about Lorenzo is he grows over 100 plants of MJ at a time,rumored to be the xtasy supplier on the island and had colombian guards.

Astrid most likely has some sort of a proffession. I see there are a at least two Astrid Van Rijn's in Holland. I dont think this is her as she was living in Aruba. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/667/749

Maybee she own this store called Astrid's Goodies?

http://www.marktplaza.nl/De-dochter-des-huizes-Catherine-Cookson-3652010.php

One thing that amazes me is the attitude of the government on that "little" island.

First of all they want sovereign status...to be treated like any other "country" with same rights and privs and status...

But the population of this "country" is only 71,566. 

From this population base they feel they can thumb their nose at the U.S.

Imagine that.

Consider this:  The closest "City" in the U.S. that compares in size to Aruba is New Britain, Florida with a population of 71,538 and ranked #374.

That helps put in perspective the "size and population relevance".

Interview with Lt Rudy Soemers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SzUfdbGWps

I think the whole radar thing is BS. According to LT Rudy Soemers you can easily reach Point Escondido in less than a hour with a good speed boat. They have problems with illegals,,etc. If she wanted to leave Aruba it is easy to leave he says. If it's that easy for Natalee to run away to Venezuela then it would be even easier to dump her body in 300-800 foot waters off of the Aruba coast

I just noticed  this:  the skirt in the picture has flowers on it-like Joran said Natalee's underwear had on them.That info wasn't known at   this time, was  it?

Sorry if already mentioned, I am catching up

I don't want a humongous quote stack -- but yes, that is another coincidence!!!!

I see the letters in the sky as 3 vip.   There are  the 22 on the back pack and a 6 in the sand.  I remember this was  looked at exhaustively at one time, but don't remember any conclusions?  This guy seems to be telling the reader, that Natalee's days were numbered=premeditated. 

I read here all the time but don't post much.  I saw this sad article this morning about Meredith Emerson and these 2 statements reminded me of this case.  Deepak cleaning his car and the theory that peices of the car were cut out and replaced because of blood.

"Agents with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation also recovered a portion of a seat belt with "apparent blood transfer stains as well," according to the warrant."

"When his 2001 minivan was searched, agents "determined that the rear seat belt had been cut out," according to the warrant."

"Hilton was attempting to vacuum the vehicle and wash portions of it with a bleach and water solution," the warrant says.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/05/missing.hiker/index.html

Good morning, Maria. 

You notice the police have no problem charging that old geezer with kidnapping even though they haven't found her body yet.  His behavior screams guilt.  Just like the behavior of some others we have observed.   

I was reading the case about the missing hiker and read the article of some of the charges against the guy who abducted her and most likely murdered her.  I underlined one part of the article because I seem to remember the same kind of wording that was in Beth's lawsuit against Joran and Paulus.

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d118/Sanddrops/Meredith.jpg)

I thought it was determined that the radar or whatever that should have detected activity in the waters around the little hell hole wasn't working.  Didn't we discuss they bought the system from Raytheon and it wasn't even working?

This Soemers guy is interesting.  I can't decide if he knows more than he's saying (duh) or he's just throwing crap out there to see what he can sell. 

Either way, I'm sure he's probably right about how long it takes to get to South America by boat.  Size of the boat may vary depending on your theory of whose boat is being used.  And how fast do you wanna make the trip.  You could do it in a 50' sailboat if you wanted to.  KWIM?  There's a lot of variables to the "she left the island on a boat" idea. 

Yes just like Deepak Kalpoe indeed.  The only thing is that Deepak had professional help from those Auto Enterprise people and ten days to cut out everything in his car and replace it.

He has a website with past cartoons, very interesting.

http://cartoons.diberardo.com/

I remember the Dompig interview pics.  Someone suggested that he should not have shown the radar with blips of warships.  I wouldn't know a warship blip from a cigarette boat blip.

What exactly was the radar keeping track of in Aruba?  Small boats?  Pleasure craft?  Warships? 

Is there perhaps overlap with neighboring islands?  South America?

I wonder at times if the Shango/Simian had a laundry list of loose ends they were communicating.  Someone had a planning meeting and these were all items of concern.  Checked off one by one...

She counted the drug money her son brought in.

Good morning Monkeys
Interesting news on aol about Mexico and tourism........

Tourists Shun Crime-Hit Mexico Beaches
By ELLIOT SPAGAT,AP
Posted: 2008-01-05 13:23:23
PLAYAS DE ROSARITO, Mexico (AP) - Assaults on American tourists have brought hard times to hotels and restaurants that dot Mexican beaches just south of the border from San Diego.

Surfers and kayakers are frightened to hit the waters of the northern stretch of Mexico's Baja California peninsula, long popular as a weekend destination for U.S. tourists. Weddings have been canceled. Lobster joints a few steps from the Pacific were almost empty on the usually busy New Year's weekend.

Americans have long tolerated shakedowns by police who boost salaries by pulling over motorists for alleged traffic violations, and tourists know parts of Baja are a hotbed of drug-related violence. But a handful of attacks since summer by masked, armed bandits - some of whom used flashing lights to appear like police - marks a new extreme that has spooked even longtime visitors.

Lori Hoffman, a San Diego-area emergency room nurse, said she was sexually assaulted Oct. 23 by two masked men in front of her boyfriend, San Diego Surfing Academy owner Pat Weber, who was forced to kneel at gunpoint for 45 minutes. They were at a campground with about 30 tents, some 200 miles south of the border.

The men shot out windows of the couple's trailer and forced their way inside, ransacked the cupboards and left with about $7,000 worth of gear, including computers, video equipment and a guitar.

Weber, who has taught dozens of students in Mexico over the last 10 years, plans to surf in Costa Rica or New Zealand. "No more Mexico," said Hoffman, who reported the attack to Mexican police. No arrests have been made.

The Baja California peninsula is known worldwide for clean and sparsely populated beaches, lobster and margaritas and blue waters visited by whales and dolphins. Surfers love the waves; fishermen catch tuna, yellowtail and marlin. Food and hotels are cheap.

News of harrowing assaults on American tourists has begun to overshadow that appeal in the northern part of the peninsula, home to drug gangs and the seedy border city of Tijuana. The comparatively isolated southern tip, with its tony Los Cabos resort, remains safer and is still popular with Hollywood celebrities, anglers and other foreign tourists.

Local media and surfing Web sites that trumpeted Baja in the past have reported several frightening crimes that U.S. and Mexican officials consider credible. Longtime visitors are particularly wary of a toll road near the border that runs through Playas de Rosarito - Rosarito Beach.

In late November, as they returned from the Baja 1000 off-road race, a San Diego-area family was pulled over on the toll road by a car with flashing lights. Heavily armed men held the family hostage for two hours. They eventually released them but stole the family's truck.

Before dawn on Aug. 31, three surfers were carjacked on the same stretch of highway. Gunmen pulled them over in a car with flashing lights, forced them out of their vehicles and ordered one to kneel. They took the trucks and left the surfers.

Aqua Adventures of San Diego scrapped its annual three-day kayak trip to scout for whales in January, ending a run of about 10 years. Customers had already been complaining about longer waits to return to the U.S.; crime gave them another reason to stay away.

"People are just saying, 'No way.' They don't want to deal with the risk," said owner Jen Kleck, who has sponsored trips to Baja about five times a year but hasn't been since July.

Charles Smith, spokesman for the U.S. consulate in Tijuana, said the U.S. government has not found a widespread increase in attacks against Americans, but he acknowledged many crimes go unreported. The State Department has long warned motorists on Mexico's border to watch for people following them, though no new warnings have been issued.

Mexican officials acknowledge crime has threatened a lifeblood of Baja's economy. In Playas de Rosarito, a city of 130,000, police were forced to surrender their weapons last month for testing to determine links to any crimes. Heavily armed men have patrolled City Hall since a failed assassination attempt on the new police chief left one officer dead. On Thursday the bullet-riddled bodies of a Tijuana police official and another man were found dumped near the beach.

"We cannot minimize what's happening to public safety," said Oscar Escobedo Carignan, Baja's new secretary of tourism. "We're going to impose order ... We're indignant about what's happening."

Tourist visits to Baja totaled about 18 million in 2007, down from 21 million the previous year, Escobedo said. Hotel occupancy dropped about 5 percentage points to 53 percent.

Hugo Torres, owner of the storied Rosarito Beach Hotel and the city's new mayor, estimates the number of visitors to Rosarito Beach since summer is down 30 percent.

In the city's Puerto Nuevo tourist enclave, which offers $20 lobster dinners and $1 margaritas, restaurant managers said sales were down as much as 80 percent from last year. One Saturday afternoon in October, masked bandits wielding pistols walked the streets and kidnapped two men - an American and a Spanish citizen - who were later released unharmed. Two people who were with them were shot and wounded.

Omar Armendariz, who manages a Puerto Nuevo lobster restaurant, is counting on the new state and city governments to make tourists feel safer. He has never seen fewer visitors in his nine years on the job.

"It's dead," he said.


Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
01/05/08 13:22 EST

She has a business on the island.

It appears her business is located in Santa Cruz.   The company deals in prefabricated steel construction and buildings.

Santa Cruz is the location of the early cell phone call according to *******'s previous post.

VAN RIJN IM- EN EXPORT N.V. 
 
Business address BARCADERA 4, SANTA CRUZ 
Legal form  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY 
Name of the company  VAN RIJN IM- EN EXPORT N.V. 
Statutory seat  ARUBA 
Date of incorporation  15 JANUARY 1991 
     
Authorized capital  ARUBAN FLORINS 50,000.00 
Issued capital  ARUBAN FLORINS 10,000.00 
Paid up capital  ARUBAN FLORINS 10,000.00 
Fiscal year  01 JANUARY thru 31 DECEMBER 
   
DIRECTORS - AUTHORIZED PERSONS AND CORPORATE BODIES - SUPERVISORY BOARD: 
 
VAN RIJN, PAUL; 
Residing in  BARCADERA 4, SANTA CRUZ, ARUBA 
Born in  THE NETHERLANDS, HAARLEM on 27 DECEMBER 1958 
Nationality  DUTCH 
Position  MANAGING DIRECTOR 
Effective  21 JANUARY 1991 
Authority  FULL 
   
VAN RIJN-VAN TRAKSEL, ASTRID LOUISE; 
Residing in  SAVANETA 123-K, SAVANETA, ARUBA 
Born in  THE NETHERLANDS, HAARLEM on 10 FEBRUARY 1960 
Nationality  DUTCH 
Position  MANAGING DIRECTOR 
Effective  21 JANUARY 1991 
Authority  FULL 

Looks like ALE were very busy last night
http://www.24ora.com/content/blogcategory/6/8/

Here's another company listed under Astrid Van Rijn located at the same address as her import/export company.

R & S GO-KART RACING-TRACK ARUBA N.V. 
 
Business address BARCADERA 4, SANTA CRUZ 
Legal form  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY 
Name of the company  R & S GO-KART RACING-TRACK ARUBA N.V. 
Statutory seat  ARUBA 
Date of incorporation  12 MAY 1993 
       
NOT IN POSSESION OF A BUSINESS ESTABLISHMENT LICENCE 
   
DIRECTORS - AUTHORIZED PERSONS AND CORPORATE BODIES - SUPERVISORY BOARD: 
 
VAN RIJN, PAUL; 
Residing in  BARCADERA 4, SANTA CRUZ, ARUBA 
Born in  THE NETHERLANDS, HAARLEM on 27 DECEMBER 1958 
Nationality  DUTCH 
Position  MANAGING DIRECTOR 
Effective  12 MAY 1993 
Authority  FULL 
   
VAN RIJN-VAN TRAKSEL, ASTRID LOUISE; 
Residing in  SAVANETA 123-K, SAVANETA, ARUBA 
Born in  THE NETHERLANDS, HAARLEM on 10 FEBRUARY 1960 
Nationality  DUTCH 
Position  MANAGING DIRECTOR 
Effective  12 MAY 1993 
Authority  FULL 

There's also this company located at the same address:

R & S DIESEL SERVICE ARUBA N.V.  
 
Business address BARCADERA 4, SANTA CRUZ 

DIRECTORS - AUTHORIZED PERSONS AND CORPORATE BODIES - SUPERVISORY BOARD: 
 
HABIBE, TOMMY ORLANDO;

CROES, NELSON ANTONIUS CERILIO;


   

There is a street location called Santa Marta located in Santa Cruz.  Could this be the Santa Marta Merian was referring to?

To add to my above post......Santa Marta, Santa Cruz rather than Santa Marta, Columbia, as some have said.

Pita! VERY interesting find!

Can anyone tell me how to find Loco Stefi's zorpia page?

LT Rudy Soemers!!!

Is he related to Eric Soemers ... the ALE investigator?

Janet

+++++++++++++


Dave Holloway
Corruption in Paradise

Page 183:  I commented to Jacobs about how short my statement was. He said that I could add anything I wanted to it. Also, I noticed that Eric Soemers's name was on it, but that detective was not even present during the interview. Now I wondered if Jacobs was making up everyone's statement and getting Eric to sign on to them. If that were the case, he could state anything he wanted, and it would look like an official statement made in front of a witness.


Beth Twitty
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
April 6, 2006

TWITTY: ... So you know, they‘re all very connected on that island. It‘s hard to find someone who‘s not a relative or a cousin.

I don't have her Zorpia page but would hi5 work?

http://www.hi5.com/friend/profile/displayProfile.do?userid=14265404

Thank you Pita for the information.

Astrid seems to own a lot of companies in the import/export business.  This is just my opinion but I wonder what others goods she is importing and exporting.  With her son being a major drug supplier on the island one has to wonder.

That is my point...no one would lend a boat to Paulus and not know why.  If Paulus was in on disposal he paid someone to do it...my bet is on Steve Croes.  Otherwise, Joran handled disposal and I tend to think that would only include his close friends and Deepak is not one of them.  If Deepak and Satish had gone back and killed Natalee...neither Joran or Paulus would have disposed of anything.  They would be in the clear and it would be up to the Kalpoes to handle their own mess.  Enter Paulus....paying someone and whoever it was is still not talking....the question is why? Obviously it is not about the crime of body disposal...that would be a slap on the wrist in Aruba....it's more.  Freddy needs to tell the truth, but he's being paid to keep quiet in some way. MOO

At least this time we can be sure that the BLOOD won't turn into chocolate and cleaning fluid.

Thursday, the GPR team scanned an area in the Arikok National Park where a shallow grave and duct tape with blonde hair were found.


(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6153/mapevidence63tr.jpg)

RED
There have been reports that a shallow grave was discovered in the area of Boca Tortuga, on the eastern part of the island. There are also reports that cell-phone calls made by Joran early in the morning came from a location on the eastern side of the island. It seems plausible that this area could yield more clues.
TIM MILLER
We found a site that we feel as though was a possible gravesite. Our thoughts are that Natalee may have been buried in that hole for 1 or 2 days then moved. We have information that the cell phones were possibly being used in that area. Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it. The duct tape and hair was found 3/4 of a mile from where the possible gravesite was. With the information of her being buried, possible cellphone usage, discovery of possible gravesite, and duct tape with hair lead me to believe that Nataleewas dumped in the sea in that area. We are anxiously awaiting the results of the hair samples which has been sent to the FBI lab and also the lab in the Netherlands

__________________________________________________________________

THE SHALLOW GRAVE


Vinda Desousa - Family Aruban Attorney
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
July 20, 2005

DESOUSA: Well about the shallow grave, there was a shallow hole, yes, found by EquuSearch, and the authorities took a look at it and apparently it had no evidence or nothing to link it to any crime.


Tim Miller
NANCY GRACE
July 13, 2005

TIM MILLER, EQUUSEARCH LEADER: ... We found an area up close, a fisherman`s hut, that we was interested in. We actually rented a backhoe. We went in there, cleared some debris out. There was a couple of mounds of dirt that we went ahead and cleared out.

And where we found that area today that kind of looked like a grave, which looked exactly like a grave -- we know what that looks like -- I`m not thoroughly convinced yet that that didn`t at one time or another have something to do with Natalee.


<snipped>

PENHAUL: The searchers were at an area called Boca Prim (ph). That`s on the northern side of the island near the national park. It`s an area of soft sand dunes. There`s only one road to get down there. It`s a very rough road. You can really only get there by four-wheel drive.

It`s where a dry riverbed meets the ocean. And it`s at that area where this thing that looked like a grave, a hole, about four feet deep and about the length of a body with a mound of sand beside it, was found, Nancy.

GRACE: Now, also, on the north end of the island, where they were today, is that where that lighthouse is?

PENHAUL: Not really, no. The lighthouse is at the northern tip, at the northwest tip. And this area is really on the northeastern side of the island.

Hi, everyone,

Lots of good discussion going on!

It's also time to start thinking about
the Boston and NY travel shows.

If you plan to attend or can help in any way,
please contact Vicki: JusticeforNatalee@gmail.com

Thank you!

Here is the info for Boston:

http://www.bostonglobetravelshow.com/

Here's the NY info:

http://www.nyttravelshow.com/


I don't want to take away from the Persistence in any way, but
we do need to start thinking about Boston and NY.
Boston is first; NY a week later

Both shows end of Feb.

Thanks! :smt052

I beg to differ with all the cartoon theorists here...these ideas were out there.  CNN had already mentioned that three witnesses that had been questioned.  The story of the HI drop off was in full force.  Photos of Natalee were all over the  news.  Rumors of drugs in drinks was being reported or at the least discussed among news people.  I attended orientation that week with my daughter at the Unversity where Natalee was to attend also.  I sat next to a gentleman from Florence, Alabama and we talked about things we had heard on the news or read such as putting drugs in drinks and the 3 perps being involved because they were the last seen with Natalee.  The guards were already in custody and theories and rumors were running rampant. We even speculated on them burying her in a hurry and going back later to move her.  Even SM had stories on the FP about the bloody mattress and the FBI dive team headed to Aruba. They had already impounded the 3 vehicles from the Sloots and Kalpoes homes...so they were already being discussed and things connected.  This cartoonist simply had a connection with the news media or was reading blogs right along with the rest of us. and drew his cartoon accordingly. If not, then this guy has some explaining to do.  I don't mean to be the debunker here...just pointing out the obvious.

Comment from FP article on June 4:

:( on June 4th, 2005 7:05 pm

This is my theory. Her friends have told me that she left the nightclub really drunk. I think that those 3 men used some sort of date rape drug on her, then took her to someplace and raped her. Then I think she overdosed on the drugs they used on her and in an effort to conceal the “accident” the three men took cut her up and threw her to the sharks…. where no body would ever be found.

I know this sounds very pesimistic and I really hope I’m wrong. I want Natalee to come back to AL.

Is this not an excellent way to launder money too?  Not saying she is, but isn't this the kind of thing the FBI looks for?  Shell companies on Caribbean islands?  MOO

I think everyone left me in here alone.  What did I do?   Where is everyone? :shock:

I dont see 3VIP but I do see 3.5   maybe meaning 3-5 miles out to sea?

Can you show me that road please......I cant find it.

Shoot, they left me alone here also.  I'll check back later to see if I got any responses.

It is pretty far fetched that this cartoonist has any info that wasn't made public. Also, accusing Astrid of laundering money is well, libel. I don't know what is up with me, but putting this kind of stuff on a public blog is just wrong. I've done the same kinds of things, but I don't want to speculate on ppl who have nothing to do with the case. They were never questioned by the FBI, RCMP, Interpol ,ALE or anyone and speculation of their involvement in the crime against Natalee is wrong. If they had criminals records that were a matter of public knowlegde, then we could discuss that, but to accsue uninvolved ppl of crimes is not something that I want to participate in. This won't be solved by these types of well, gossip and speculation.

Dear Janet, I don't think Jossy "back tracked" at all.  As you know from mentioning members of your family, sometimes even those with excellent English will not say something the same way when English is a Second Language.  I believe Jossy previously was confirming the RUMOR, not that the rumor was true but rather what was said in the rumors. I can't imagine his being intimidated by much of anything at this late date, certainly not this, in my opinion only.

That is why I asked my question so excruciatingly detailed, to separate the confirmation of the rumor with the confirmation of the facts here:

Scroll down to the July 23, 2007 interview with Dana to Minute 27:00 and Jossy says that it is just rumor concerning Lorenzo and he has never been able to confirm it. 
 
 
http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/07/

I have even marked the Minute to save having to listen to the whole tape to find it.

And my question was if this person, Lorenzo, was involved with Natalee's disappearance in any way and not his drug bust nor selling drugs but if he personally had anything to do with it that could be confirmed as other than rumor and he answered NO.  Same with being related to the Sloots.  I believe him and also think he would have the ways and means to find out otherwise if it were true.

Someone was looking for Rob.  I have run across him several times lately but as early as November, he was posting on another forum that the article at the following link pretty well "closed the door" on Lorenzo for him.  We have all had questionable or unreliable sources at times.


http://www.amw.com/missing_persons/case.cfm?id=32411


I also try to maintain a little bit of hope that Hans Mos will still come through and he says that no one is involved other than the primary suspects, J2K+P and called the rest "fabrications."  This is the man in charge for the next two plus years so I do hope he knows of what he speaks.

I've said for some time that my list of suspects keeps shrinking and it does right down to those very suspects.  I think they and they alone are responsible from start to finish of what became of Natalee. 

I do realize others think differently but I have to go where my own logic takes me.


Hope everyone has a wonderful afternoon. . . .the cold has passed here and it is going to be very close to if not 70 degrees today!

.

Man O man are some of those people over at RU  vicious and really don't care what they say  do they ?  :2doh:  to Klaas and Tylergal <g> 
  Jerry from Ohio .  :lol:   :wink:

Update: Sun 06-Jan 1535


The seas abated sufficiently to maintain our progress through the night and into the early morning hours. The Persistence arrived dockside around 0430 hrs this morning. Rested and ready, the crew makes ready for departure at 1515 hrs. Now a routine, the crew toss the lines and we depart. Leaving the dock past the behemoth cruise ships reminds me of the opening scene from "Space Balls". Their shear immensity projects an image of being impervious to the seas.

(http://bp0.blogger.com/_d8XtKIwObt4/R4Eqx-DWjQI/AAAAAAAAALM/NIx6Sa7vre8/s400/Persistence_cruiseship_aAruba.JPG)

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/



Working and lurking again  :wink:

But I am in search of a much greater thing.  I’m above their sensationalism. So what I’m looking for is fact, not their propaganda.  The pit  vipers will amass themselves at the summoning of their elders. I am quite sure it is what they do. But, they use their slavering and palavering as a tool against truth and light.  They strike like cornered snakes when truth of their crime is brought to light.  They have posted propaganda which many have used as a compass.  But I do have some information of what they were even before.  I walk among them and they know not of whom I am, I am sure.  I return the favor as I fill them with my own propaganda.  My work is not done, but is nearing a close. 

During that interview Lt Rudy Soemers says he thinks Mr.Soemers is leading the Investigation.

www.bolaccountants.nl/images/Nr52006Coverstorycolumnversie3.pdf

Can't read the article, but Eric Soemers is the man on the left in picture.

Santa Marta east of airport, on this map:

http://www.arubayp.com/maps.html?PageNumber=6

Not too far from the Canashito. June 11th 2005 Arubagirl reports a large empty plastic bag found in Canashito and Leila reports Locals are saying something is happening in Canashito

(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/Scaredmonkeysfpcommentscanashitojun.jpg)

I don't know where the road is but if you can locate this company you will find it.

R. & R. AUTO REPAIR & SALES N.V. 
 
Business address SANTA MARTA 4, SANTA CRUZ   

You obviously didn't read what I said.  I said I was not saying she  laundered money I am simply pointing out that import/export businesses are a favorite target of watch for the FBI and other agencies to watch for such activity. The other day another monkey pointed out the connection with import/export and I was simply mentioning it again. It was my opinion and I have come to realize that suddenly anything we have ever discussed at any time in the past is now wrong, wrong , wrong.  Well, that's all fine and good...but frankly I am tired of only being able to discuss just certain aspects of this case.  It's a waste of my time to be in this thread because no matter what is said it's always the wrong thing...no wonder so many people have left this forum.  As long as it is anything but Lorenzo and his family it's fair game to talk about. I am tired of this accusing me of gossip and speculation. Isn't the idea that Koen and Sander helped provide a boat rumor and gossip also?  Where is the evidence that they did this?  It's just speculation. Isn't the idea that Joran had bloody shoes a speculation?  We have never seen any evidence that he had blood on his shoes. Some think Steve Croes helped dispose of Natalee...that is speculation also. So why is it if I mention Lorenzo and his mother and others talk about it I am somehow spreading gossip? I don't need an answer I already know it...if it isn't what certain people want to see, then it's gossip and rumor  and speculation. What about linking the Soemers men together?  Is that not also speculation that they might be in this together. I am simply asking questions and then letting people discuss their ideas. When that ceases to be a free exercise on the internet then there is no freedom of speech any longer. I thought that is basically all we do here is speculate on what we think has happened. I will not discuss Lorenzo or his family any longer on this thread. I will go to the Shango thread from now on. I am tired of this and I have other things to do besides sit here and be treated like this. So enjoy your discussions in the future...I will remain in the Shango thread and be happy. BTW Shango and Simian is basically gossip and speculation also, so please refrain from their discussion here also.  This rant is not directed at any one person in particular, I am just fed up with being the person to bash all the time just because I have a different opinion.  It is not directed at Kat or Anna in any way...just a general rant on my part.  And as usual MOO.

Were we not told that Deepaks cars radio was installed there for he had all the carpets replaced in order to run the wiring?  All the guy at the Auto place could talk about was how Deepak didnt mention a licence or the girl........Duhhhh, NO they didnt follow up on that at all IMO

Suspicious activity by a white van in the Canashito Area(Located next to Santa Marta)
#  arubagirl on June 11th, 2005 1:18 am

According to the prime minister the fam. didn’t know this until they turned on CNN. The radio stations are also reporting that cops are heading to recover the remains. First it was lighthouse, then it was Bubali Plas (shallow lake), now it’s Canashito, the rock quarry.


(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h254/chicagoutfit/arubagirlwhitevanatcanoshita.jpg)

Shoot....I thought we just couldn't spit and cuss.  I thought discussing any and
everything until it was proven or disproven was what it was all about.
Silly me!

Yes.  Exactly my point.  Aruba could have solved this if they weren't incompetent and corrupt.  We all know Deepak, Satish, Joran and Paulus are guilty among others on the island.  They never even attempted to search for Natalee in the beginning and didn't want their property searched.  If it was me and I was innocent I would have done all I could to help - that includes search for Natalee and have my property cleared to clear my name.  It also bugged me from day one that they kept calling her "the girl".  In all respect she has a name, so use it!  These people have no manners(to put it very politely).

It is,The case is still not solved and we are already in the year 2008. Almost everything is speculation and very few hard facts. No one should be afraid to discuss anything case related. That includes people that were brought in for questioning or rumored to be involved. We all know who the main suspects are but any clue,hint or lead should be followed until Natalee's dissapearance is solved. To ignore anyone that is suspicious or we were told may be involved is foolish. It's a cover up and it's not just the Van Der Sloot's they are protecting.

Anyone that spends there free time researching and doing anything they can to put the pieces together I admire a great deal. The truth of what happened to Natalee and what they did with her has definetly been talked about at one time or another on this board. God bless the people that continue to try and get answer's and put that puzzle together. It may be one small discovery that leads to this case being solved.

Thank you Klaas and *******!  I will continue not to spit or cuss.

I have always thought that since the Kalpoe's step father owned the car
place that they just switched out the car with the stains for another car.

Lala'sMom, would you please reconsider & not hide out from the current NH threads?

When it is so obvious that your post was either not thoroughly read or misinterpretted wouldn't it be ok to just fly on by it after one read & post to the rest of us who do read your posts????????

After all this time you know you are one of the fav's around here, come on, don't punish us cuz a few have offended you.  I know you gotta be tougher than that or you wouldn't still be here fighting against all that is evil.

Lala's they are expecting you at RU any minute. 
You know that you would rather be here than there. :lol:

Aruba needs a lesson and a rude awakening(which we all know).  Lala's Mom - I read every day and don't post much but I alway enjoy reading your posts.

"There is considerable evidence based on the information that we received from the public," Bankhead said.

Humm - Aruba had witness statements and they threw them all out or disregarded them as not credible.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/06/missing.hiker/index.html

I think many of us mistake arguing against a point as a personal attack meaning they should not ever bring up a suspect or a point. I am probably guilty of this as much as anyone but I truly believe ALL opinions are fair game as long they are well meaning. Everyone should be able to express their opinion and also be able to handle dissenting opinions. We are all getting a little thin skinned it seems.

Well I guess I was part of this discussing this morning about Astrid.  In my opinion and only my opinion Astrid cannot be ruled out.  Her son is a major drug dealer on that island and we have the proof.  I believe one monkey even commented that the drugs he was caught with was worth $1,000,000.  It is said that he inherited the business from his father (Jury is still out on who is actual father is...IMO).  How does one become so untouchable on that island.  Drugs and Money that is how.  So her being his mother puts her right in the spotlight.  So what were are trying to do is connect the dots through some speculation.

I don't care who I am dragging through the mud in Aruba.  Everyone is fair game to me.  If Natalee, Beth, Jug, Dave are fair game to them then the gloves are off and I will attack them.

Should we:

• Stop talking about Arlene Ellis Schipper because her cousin was some how involved in Natalee's death.
  
  Stop talking about Koen because he had a boat.
  
  Stop talking about Sander because he lost his phone.
  
  Stop talking about Dennis Jacobs because we thought he didn't do his job.
  
  Stop talking about Rudy Croes being dirty hand.
  
  Stop talking about Karin Janssen because she worked with Paulus.
  
  Stop talking about Gerald Dompig because he said Natalee died of an accidental OD.
  
  Stop talking about Van der Straaten because he is Paulus' best friend.
  
  Stop talking about Ben Vocking because he owed Paulus a favor.
  
  Stop talking about Judges Wit and Smit because they ruled in favor of J2K and one changed a search warrant.

All the people above are not a witnesses or suspects so I guess we should not talk about them anymore.

Lorenzo must not be ruled out.  He is in the same category as the people above.

(http://www.bucuticam.com/zoom3.jpg)

TROPICAL ISLAND IS A BUST

Good choice of words  :lol:

Perhaps Deepak switched cars.

Remember his mom, Nadria stated that the Honda was Deepak's prize and he would not even drive it to work because he was afraid of a scratch getting on it. OCD Deepak would most likely use another vehicle when he knew that Joran wanted to go to Carlos n' Charlie's to pick up the last night tourists that Joran had already targeted Natalee Holloway!

Just like when Deepak and Freddy picked up Bailey - he was in a different silver car!

Look again at the photo of the car in the Diamond's International shot. Is that a spoiler on the back?
Could be.

Take the challenge and prove it wrong. Then it would be ruled out.

I wonder if the king of bling Satish Kalpoe had his own car.

Altruist well said
 :smt038 :smt038 :smt038

Heck Lala's and anyyone else who might now, in the past, or in the future want to discuss a subject that involves Natalee's case we should feel free to do so without threat of reprimand and accusation. Some here have gotten very high and mighty about a few subjects.......which I think is wrong. If any think it right...emmm i know
a reefergee forum they might want to join. (Klaas can I say that ?)

Did you notice who was on the bottom right on page 11 of her friend's list?

******* ... when you consider what Dave reveals in regards to his statement that implies it was not only changed but it was witnessed by Eric Soemers ... an Eric Soemers who was not present.  It makes one question how many of the following statements were actually witnessed by Eric Soemers.

Was Dennis Jacobs in charge obtaining and mainipulating statements in an attempt to conform to an agenda ... an agenda to distance Paulus and Joran from implication in the events that encompass the morning when Natalee Holloway disappearance?

Janet

++++++++++


http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/11/dennis-jacobs.html

Dennis Jacobs
Lead Investigator? Or Key Obstructionist?

What key elements could have been given by these various witnesses and suspects, that Dennis Jacobs may have tampered with?

Freddy Zedan
June 17, 2005 pages 6
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Freddy Zedan Arrambatzis
July 20, 2005 pages 4
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Freddy Alexander Arambatzis
February 10, 2006 17:15 pages 5
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: interrogation of a suspect

Jaime Alberto Carrasquilla
August 30, 2005 pages 5
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Stefany Mejia Cortes
August 23, 2005 pages 5 - attachments of photographs
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement/complaint

Stefany Mejia Cortes
August 24, 2005 pages 3
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement/complaint

Margaritha Dijkhoff - Van der Sloot maid - third statement
August 11, 2005 pages 3
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Judith Geerman
July 29, 2005 page 1
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Koen Gottenbos
August 30, 2005 18:30 pages 3
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Jose Anacleto Maduro
August 28, 2005 pages 5 - two photograph attachments
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement by a prison inmate

Wilfred Benito Maduro
February 14, 2006 16:00 pages 3
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Milangelo Jairo Ferdinand Marcano
September 10, 2005 pages 3
writer: Dennis Jacobs/Eric Soemers
description: witness statement

Well, I must have missed it because I have not seen one person post that anyone should "stop talking" about anybody.  I don't believe that has been suggested at all.

However, I also think that those with a different opinion from the majority should be allowed to state their opinion as well without it being called an attack.  Not sharing the same opinion as somebody else is not an attack. 

And the main difference to me in Astrid and Lorenzo van Rijn and all those people listed is that we have verified connections to those and do not to the van Rijns.  Am I not free to think that and must I agree with others in order to post here?  All the others are connected by statements from the family, ALE, or Beth or even Joran's book.  Giving one statement to ALE is not enough to prove a connection to me.  If it is to you, fine.

I didn't see anyone say anything to Lala's at all that was offensive in any way. 

You think what you think but I also think what I think.

Angie, did you decide who posts here that might be related to Lorenzo?  And Lala's, did you ever find out what Delores middle name was?

Guess I didn't get the memo on when the Group Think started and thought we were all free to have our own opinions.  I didn't understand that having a different one was an attack and for whatever reasons, mine was some how inferior to the opinion of others.

I think I've got it straight now.  Either agree with the majority or don't post.

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