Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/NH2008.gif)

G. Rufner Page was Jug's boss??? I thought Jug was an arms dealer for Dick Cheney!!!!!!! ::MonkeyWink:: ::MonkeyCool::

Great point Sunny

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

and the President of his company!!!

that's why we are trying to find out the truth...there is too much of this type of thing out there.....someone says it and it's repeated so many times that it suddenly becomes fact....I wasn't saying it was fact......sorry if my posting was misleading.....it was NOT MEANT TO BE...

So now JUG works for McWane?  ::MonkeyNoNo::

G. Ruffner Page, Jr., 47, has served as a director of ANB since 1995. Mr. Page is President of McWane, Inc., a position he has held since 1999. He served as Executive Vice President of McWane, Inc. from 1994 until 1998.

ROTFLMAO.....how could we forget something like that!   ::MonkeyLaugh::

So maybe someone actually needs to ask G. Ruffner Page if he's a friend of CC.  ::MonkeyWink::

it gets wild doesn't it??!!

Jug's company, where he is plant manager, is a subsidiary of McWane

Thanks Sunny.

I am lurking while my hubby cheats at Scrabble.  He is looking  through the latest Scabble dictionary edition ... determined to get rid of his last five letters.  I want to play a second game but ...

ldstlou ... I found the followings quotes ... it indicates that Jug is somewhat in the dark regarding Eric Williams.  Anyways ... I am anticipating that Jug will have some answers for us on Monday.

Good Night Monkeys ... this time for real ... I think.
   ::MonkeyHaHa::

Janet

+++++++++++


Jug Twitty
On the Record w/ Greta
July 19, 2005

VAN SUSTEREN: What's going to be the mandate for this investigator that you've hired? I mean, what are you telling him to do or what's going to be his plan?

TWITTY: I think he's going to get down there and start asking questions. I mean, there are so many things that went wrong in the beginning. And probably people know by now, Beth said the other night, we had an agent there on the ground when we got there with a chaperone, and we didn't find out until two days ago that this is an American — I think he was a DEA agent. I think he was just there vacationing, though. But anyway, he helped us that night, and he also waited and said, Wait before you go to the judge's house. I want to go with you.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162966,00.html

that was on the list of questions too.

It's time for me to say Good Night to all...happy weekend

He is Janet, I think I posted that back a ways. I think that is why he took the questions home over the weekend to work on. I just saw your earlier post...I asked klaas for your email addy

Janet....you can actually get your husband to play Scrabble with you!! ::MonkeyTongue:: Mine gave up about 5 years ago!!   

I apologize ldstlou.  I should have addressed this post to you.

Janet

Night Sweetie!! Have fun at the Doggie Parade!!!

Sunny ... he tolerates Scrabble just to get me away from the computer.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Janet

It's ok...I'm feeling visible now...lol...must have been the perfume...it's Red by the way...works every time!!! ::MonkeyHaHa::

I'm looking at the McWane site and I don't see any connection at all to Phoenix Metals.

http://www.mcwane.com/profile/

We know about Jug's Arm dealing's in Colombia and I saw this one recently recently also ::MonkeyConfused::

#505 2005-08-19 8:40 pm
very_strange
Guest
Re: Paul Van Der Sloot arrested
Just when you thought the story couldn't get any stranger...

hcgtv.net
The intl. news section, where they talked about George Twitty. from Mountain Brook, Alabama ,who's stepdaughter had been disappeared on the Caribbean Island of Aruba in the beginning of June.

Regarding the extensive media coverage, they
brought up that one of the main reporters for Fox News Network Greta van Susteren has a very special connection to the case.

Her husband, John P. Coale, and George Twitty are both investors in a large real estate development in Richmond, VA. Each of them hold 25% of the development. The other 50% is held by a group of 2 Germans and a Dutch investor, who resides in the self-governing entity of Aruba.
#507 2005-08-19 9:15 pm

http://www.phoenixmetals.net/index.html

PHOENIX METALS IS A SUBSIDIARY OF RELIANCE STEEL
AND ALUMINUM COMPANY


http://www.rsac.com/site/subpage.asp?intSectionID=3&intModuleID=25

I guess I am wrong...sorry!

******* - I believe that one has been debunked as well.

I found it interesting on Kyle's blog that the Aruban Police underwater
search team has been assisting them.

Thanks!  ::MonkeyEek::

What happened to her in Aruba? Why did she turn away from the previous profile to enter a car with three persons she hardly knew? Too many drinks, or was she drugged? A bartender at the club where she was that fatal night has confirmed that two of the three suspects had to practically drag her to the car because she was uncertain on her feet. Another witness has confirmed that it’s not rare that they could have put a drug in one of her drinks to soften her submission. Be it whatever it was that weakened her defenses that night, its the three suspects that were with her who can supply us with the right answers. Since I do not have the habit of speculating, I am not going to do it now either.

Yes, me too!

Haha..I am sure it has!!  ::MonkeyWink::

Hello Monkeys! Mic here and learning your board. Thanks for having me.

Welcome!!

Hi Mic - welcome to Scared Monkeys!  We'll have to dress you up now.  Where's CBB when you need her, lol  ::MonkeyHaHa::

My whole day has been this way....................I just posted on the last thread!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Hi Monkeys! TGIF!!!!

MIC - if you scroll up a bit you will see a link to the front page of SM, a translated article of Jossy's.  Jossy puts all the Kelly and Daniel BS to rest (except for the Renfro stuff, lol)

CBB - we have a new member, just joined today.  His/her name is Mic

Welcome Mic!

Hey MIC!! Welcome ::MonkeyCool::

Uh-Hum...................I'm right here listening to every word.

Hi Mic!
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/MOD/thWelcome.gif)

Wanna avatar???  ::MonkeyWink::

Thanks Klass for bringing this over and Thanks Jossy for telling it like it is! 

-------------------------
"A bartender at the club where she was that fatal night has confirmed that two of the three suspects had to practically drag her to the car because she was uncertain on her feet"

This is interesting and I have always thought that maybe there may be some truth about Deepak going back and escorting Natalee out of C&C 10 minutes after everyone initially thought. I know when I questioned Dan Riehl about this in July 2005 he nearly bit my head off...
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/how_did_natalee.html
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/natalee_hollowa_92.html

Oh, that's just in his spare time.:)

Thanks ******* - now that you post it I remember this. 

Welcome!!!

lol...ok...putting on my hazmat suit and heading on over to read.
oops...had to grab my shit boots too!! lol

Just to clear things up (as I remember -- so it could be fuzzy):
One of McWane's daughters from Mountain Brook was on the trip. McWane immediately offered the McWane company jet to the Twittys to fly to Aruba. I think Jug was in the same "industry" as the McWanes' and most likely Jug's twin brother (Jar) in the banking community as well as a Mountain Brook resident. G. Ruffner Page may be an executive with McWane ( not sure). Point #2 is that the "Medijet" sent to Aruba was done so by the owners of "Medjet" (who also had ties to Mountain Brook.) I doubt VERY seriously G. Ruffner page remotely knows Charles Croes.

I can't go over there.  Since I quit going there and reading the "crap" they put there I don't have to take my prevacid anymore. ::MonkeyHaHa::

So I was wrong -- Jug worked for Ronald Reagan as an arms dealer! ::MonkeyConfused::

Yes Wreck - that sounds about right. 

ha ha ha ha ha  ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyWink:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

That's right! Don't you remember, Ollie North was his assistant!

Has there been anything new from the Persistence?

It really is amazing!! Two good 'ol boys from Alabama named "Jug" and "Jar" were actually a whole "shadow government"  to the U.S affecting World security during the '80's.

It's a laff a minute!  That is a nut house over there with the inmates running the asylum.

Could be a son in law and knew Charles Croes but SERIOUSLY doubt they are social peers.  LOL. 

Tylergal - I mean seriously, have you seen some of Jenna's theories?  She really needs help. 

I don't ever read there -- do the nuts over there nod their heads in agreement -- or do even them shudder with embarrassment? She CAN'T be a proud addition to their cause!!! (or am I underestimating them again?)

I think that even most of them wonder what drugs she's on.  Sometimes Heli buys into some of her outlandish theories though.  ::MonkeyWink::

The gang's all here for the memorial for Betico Croes. Anyone recognize the Fat guy next to Oduber?  :-? He doesn't look Aruban to me or part of the MEP,look's more like a Italian or Colombian.MO

(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1832/fatguygi5.png) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2732/fatguy1ks0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

And ready for some HIGH WATER!

 ::MonkeyLaugh::

I noticed that!   ::MonkeyLaugh::  ::MonkeyWink::

I don't know but his "date" looks dressed very "festive" for a funeral.  I think of Idstlou's sig. line: "Get inside my belly"

hi mic, you'll like it here a lot.  fall in and talk a lot.
dennisintn

Note to self:
Open a tailor shop in Aruba. Un-tapped goldmine.

Update: Fri 25-Jan 1630 hrs

Early on I was asked the following question by a reader: “do I believe in miracles and are we expecting a miracle to happen”? My response: “I do not have enough faith to be an atheist in times such as these. Perhaps a better question would be: what kind of miracles are we expecting?”
The miracle she referred to was whether we believed we would find Natalee Holloway based on the relative odds and unknowns. The question I returned was perhaps more poignant. How would our lives be changed in the process of finding her in light of the adversity and unknowns? I maintain my position that it is a much larger miracle to have lives and hearts changed than to overcome odds and solve unknowns.
Since the beginning of this search I have been witness to many miracles. I’ve watched loving wives gracefully supporting their husbands while waiting home alone with children for over a month. I’ve seen sons and daughters patiently and cheerfully waiting for their daddies to come home to them. I’ve seen hearts moved and changed to give generously out of love and conviction. I’ve witnessed trust build, bonds form, friendships established, lies replaced with truth, mistakes forgiven, and perhaps the greatest of all and hardest to fathom... genuine loving sacrifice.
While searching offshore Aruba from the shallows to the abyss, we have truly ventured into a new search area. We’ve been exploring the very essence of our human being discovering purpose, hope, strength, and love along the way.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2008/01/xiv-search-area.html

Thank you Klaas.  Thank you Jossy.

Jossy is the only voice of reason on the entire Island when it comes to the Natalee Holloway case.

Janet

:D Kinda look's like Mos in the background. I wouldn't mind hearing his comments about Judge Wit saying Dompig obstructed Justice when they blocked the search of the VDS house  :-?

 ::MonkeyShocked::

Klaasend:

Who Operate the news or who is the Owner, aslo who is the reporter in the Case of Natalee

Marriotte back out the deal for Ritz Carlton

Q: Which Casino Group was going to operate there?

Not sure if I understand your question fully.  I may be able to find out the Casino question.  What do you mean about the Reporter?

Yes and also they retrieved samples which were delivered for analysis. Should get very interesting on there next set of dives on the targets and the extended search area. Hopefully they have Natalee on sonar imaging and just need to take a closer look

Right now it's the Stellaris Casino:

http://www.stellariscasino.com/contact.htm

From the Aruba Chamber website:

ARUBA MARRIOTT RESORT & STELLARIS CASINO 
 
Business address L.G. SMITH BLVD. 101, NOORD 
Legal form  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY 
Name of the company  PLANT HOTEL N.V. 
Statutory seat  ARUBA 
Date of incorporation  22 DECEMBER 1992 
Last amendment in the articles  7 SEPTEMBER 2007 
     
Authorized capital  US DOLLAR 30,000,000.00 
Issued capital  US DOLLAR 27,750,000.00 
Paid up capital  US DOLLAR 27,750,000.00 
Fiscal year  01 JANUARY thru 31 DECEMBER 
   
DIRECTORS - AUTHORIZED PERSONS AND CORPORATE BODIES - SUPERVISORY BOARD: 
 
BLATT, KENNETH MARC;  
Residing in  220 RIVERSIDE BLVD, APT. 41-D, NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10069, U.S.A. 
Born in  U.S.A., NEW JERSEY on 6 JUNE 1959 
Nationality  AMERICAN 
Position  SUPERVISORY DIRECTOR/COMMISSIONER 
Effective  7 SEPTEMBER 2007 
   
INGWERSEN, MARC CHRISTIAAN; 
Residing in  KURIMIAUW 9-C, NOORD, ARUBA 
Born in  THE NETHERLANDS, NIJMEGEN on 9 AUGUST 1967 
Nationality  DUTCH 
Position  MANAGING DIRECTOR 
Effective  14 NOVEMBER 2006 
Authority  RESTRICTED 
   
ZIPPIN, STANLEY ROBERT; 
Residing in  11554 KNIGHTSBRIDGE PLACE , WELLINGTON, FLORIDA 33467, U.S.A. 
Born in  U.S.A., NEW YORK on 28 DECEMBER 1959 
Nationality  AMERICAN 
Position  SUPERVISORY DIRECTOR/COMMISSIONER 
Effective  7 SEPTEMBER 2007 
   
BLANK, ERIKA LYNN; 
Residing in  124 N. WALNUT STREET , RIDGEWOOD, NJ 07450, U.S.A. 
Born in  U.S.A., NEW YORK on 23 OCTOBER 1974 
Nationality  AMERICAN 
Position  SUPERVISORY DIRECTOR/COMMISSIONER 
Effective  7 SEPTEMBER 2007 

There are MANY different media outlets from the US that have covered the NH case.  All of them really so it would be hard to pick one unless you can be more specific with your question regarding "media" or "owner" or "reporter".

Klaasend:

The Marriot deal is out, but the casino mob deal was not over, they wanted the hotel  to operate the casino.

new key:

music = News

Music = The owner of THE NEWS

Eden = RITZ CARLTON

eden = RITZ CARLTON CASINO

I thought capslock was asking about newspapers and reporters in Aruba.  Did I misunderstand?

[/quote]
 :D Kinda look's like Mos in the background. I wouldn't mind hearing his comments about Judge Wit saying Dompig obstructed Justice when they blocked the search of the VDS house  :-?
[/quote]
*******, dompig told greta they had asked to search the entire sloot home.  the judge at the house is the one who restricted the search to jvds' apt.  was witt the judge that was there?  help me out here, i'm old and it's past my couchtime.
dennisintn

Wreck said:


"Note to self:
Open a tailor shop in Aruba. Un-tapped goldmine."

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

:D Kinda look's like Mos in the background. I wouldn't mind hearing his comments about Judge Wit saying Dompig obstructed Justice when they blocked the search of the VDS house  :-?
[/quote]
*******, dompig told greta they had asked to search the entire sloot home.  the judge at the house is the one who restricted the search to jvds' apt.  was witt the judge that was there?  help me out here, i'm old and it's past my couchtime.
dennisintn
[/quote]

Haha..Yes same Judge..If that's the case why hasn't Dompig spoke up? He was in the papers weekly before that article and being accused of obstructing justice to 2 people suspected of kidnapping and murder is quite a accusation. All I believe at the moment is that the Police were stunned when they arrived and found out they could only search Joran's Apt and the 2 cars and Wit changed the search warrant. Dompig said they were denied a search warrant when PVDS was arrested and Judge Wit said they(OM) never asked to search anything more after searching Jorans Apt. This whole subject is completely outrageous and they are caught! They are all lying!

Could they mean owner of news in Aruba?  Like the Chemaly's (sp)?  Or an editor like Julia Renfro?  ::MonkeyWink::

I'll see if I can come up with anything on the Ritz Carlton Casino.

This may Help

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 10:37 pm
The DiceMen must be questioned.
They to go to the NEWS and enter the same Maze
Mary who was not a virgin entered
The DiceMen ROLLED
Mary ROLLED

http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?p=211157&highlight=ritz#211157

Aruba Will Receive A 190 Million Dollar Five Star Property


June 2nd 2005, Aruba.

(http://img170.echo.cx/img170/1167/1222basirutihadir5sy.jpg)


(FYI - this is the exact same area that Joran said he left Natalee on the beach)
 
The yellow stipple line indicates the construction lot for Ritz Carlton
Aruba, the red stipple line the rearranged road towards Westpunt.



PALM BEACH- After a period of silence the government has announced the
construction date of a brand new luxurious hotel on the island. The first
construction stone of the Ritz Carlton property will be placed during a
ceremony on July 14th 2005. The ultra luxurious Ritz Carlton Hotel Aruba
will elevate the tourism product quality of the island. In view that there is
barely a low-season and many hotels on the island are constantly full, the
arrival of the hotel is definitely good news according to the government.
The government hopes that the arrival of Ritz Carlton will contribute
greatly to the economic development on the island.


The construction of Ritz Carlton Aruba is estimated at 190 million dollars.
The investors are Marriott International and Bazarian International, Ritz
Carlton will operate the property. Ritz Carlton has a few properties in the
Caribbean that include Montego Bay, San Juan, St. Thomas, Cancun and
shortly an opening of a property in Grand Cayman. The Ritz Carlton
Hotels & Resort is part of Marriott International Incorporated.

http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?p=233315&highlight=ritz#233315
Ritz-Carlton Coming Soon


July 25th 2005, Aruba.


ORANJESTAD-There has been a notable change of plans in the
Ritz-Carlton project that was set to start on July 14th. The construction
date was cancelled in so to avoid the project of being the subject of
political discussion so close to the parliamentary election in September
says Nelson Oduber, Prime Minister of Aruba. Oduber says that initially
Bazarian International wanted to realize the hotel project and have
Ritz-Carlton operate the property. Marriott International has now opted to
step out of that idea and wants to develop the hotel property
by itself in view of the good name of Aruba’s tourism product. At present
negotiations are being held between Carl Bazarian and Kevin Kearney
Chief Executive Vice President of Marriott Corp International Hotel
Development in handing over the project.


The Ritz-Carlton Aruba will be a five star hotel consisting out of 220
luxurious suites, 67 guesthouses and a casino. The project has a price tag
of US$ 190 million and will create 500 jobs on the island. The Ritz-Carlton
will not be granted a tax holiday, thus will pay property taxes to the
government of Aruba.


In 1995 Marriott International purchased 49 percent interest in
Ritz-Carlton. Three years later, that interest was increased to 99 percent.
At present there are three Ritz-Carlton’s in the region that include
Montego Bay in Jamaica, San Juan in Puerto Rico and St. Thomas in the
U.S. Virgin Islands. The Ritz-Carlton is opening a property in the Cayman
Islands in the Fall of 2005. The Turks & Caicos Islands are getting their
Ritz-Carlton in 2007.


http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?p=463726&highlight=ritz#463726

Ritz Carlton, Out! Four Seasons, In?!



January 10th 2007, Aruba.



PALM BEACH-Aruba will not receive the luxurious hotel chain Ritz Carlton.
The Ministry of General Affairs has decided to terminate negotiations with
Ritz Carlton on December 30th 2006. The decision is confirmed by the
government spokesperson, Manolo Giel.

A few of the requirements set by Ritz Carlton to construct a hotel on the
island were the greatest obstacles for reaching an agreement. Ritz Carlton
demanded a tax holiday, that would exempt the hotel from paying
all types of taxes. The government is not willing to grant new tax
holidays to any hotels on the island, including Ritz Carlton.

The Ritz Carlton was to be constructed north of the Aruba Marriott Resort
building, on the last lot left directly on Palm Beach (where Fishermen huts
is located). The site is used by locals and windsurfers for recreational
purposes. The environmental organization StimaAruba is relieved that the
hotel is not coming. It claims that the site should be protected for turtles,
locals, as well as for those practising the sport of windsurfing.

Nevertheless the government will continue its pursuit to find a top notch
hotel for the site. There are a few parties interested, including Four
Seasons and Regency. Now that negotiations with Ritz Carlton have been
terminated, the government will begin talks with one of these hotel chains
said Manolo Giel.

Early in the case there was a fire in I think the Marriott near the top floor where some of the news people were staying, if I'm remembering correctly.

There has been discussions about a party for the "elders" in one of the hotels and that maybe Natalee was taken there.

*******, dompig told greta they had asked to search the entire sloot home.  the judge at the house is the one who restricted the search to jvds' apt.  was witt the judge that was there?  help me out here, i'm old and it's past my couchtime.
dennisintn
[/quote]

Haha..Yes same Judge..If that's the case why hasn't Dompig spoke up? He was in the papers weekly before that article and being accused of obstructing justice to 2 people suspected of kidnapping and murder is quite a accusation. All I believe at the moment is that the Police were stunned when they arrived and found out they could only search Joran's Apt and the 2 cars and Wit changed the search warrant. Dompig said they were denied a search warrant when PVDS was arrested and Judge Wit said they(OM) never asked to search anything more after searching Jorans Apt. This whole subject is completely outrageous and they are caught! They are all lying!


[/quote]
well, they've been lying since 30th of may, 2005.  now they're turning on each other to take the heat off of themselves.  this could possibly, if mos and jorg are watching closely, get very, very interesting.  i was beginning to think they were going to get away with this, but maybe not.  thanks to the courage and tenacity of dave and beth and their families and friends.  include the american media in that also.
dennisintn

Klaasend:
 
Maybe the Holiday Casino Owners was promised the operation of the Casino in the Ritz Carlton

I smell The AHATA Group has someting on their sleeves.

I Also believe now his Lordship was one that suppose to bring the money and close the deal.

If I recall The Prime Minster , Nelson always keep boosting that he will bring the Ritz to Aruba. so he must be also in the band. (the whole MEP Cabinet and Parlament is corrupt, Including the Prime Minster). I do believe now also that the reason he is Traveling up and Down is to make sure he find some one to pay for what ever open debt they have with the MOP.

This will be the end of the crooks. No wonder they made Aruba so expensive to Live..They needed money to pay some one...it is all an stage...they have not done notting for the boy that is missing and I find it very strange... Maybe he did know something and he got vanished like Natalee. 

huummm

I had to leave when I typed that, Klaas, I thought my house had been broken into.  The silly dog got off the bed at the headboard, into the shutters in the guest bedroom, where I have the bed pushed up against the window. It sounded like my house was falling apart, almost as bad as the night the guy took out my brick mailbox and 2 trees.

How hard is it to find a pair of pants that are 40W and 30L? ::MonkeyRoll::

Which BOY that is missing are you referring to?  So you are saying that maybe Posner (owner of the Excelsior Casino at the Holiday Inn) maybe was offered to be the owner of the Stellaris Casino that was or is now still at the Marriott?

I'm going to be calling it a night in a few minutes.

Just an other Observation:

Normaly the Americans Hotel Chains so far I know here in Aruba, all are beween Aruba born Nationalities and Americans. I find it very odd for the Nijmegen man to be the Managing Director..

CapsLock - are you talking about this boy that is missing?  I realize he's not really a "boy", just asking. 

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/untitled.jpg)

Is it the DeVries kid that went missing, whose family were accused unjustly of trying to gain monetarily from an insurance company, when in fact, the mother did charitable contributions with the proceeds.

Yes, I thought about Max DeVries too. 

Now I really have to call it a night!

The Holiday Casino Is operated by who? ...

I am asking if this "who" was promised by the Aruba Government, that his gangs will get the CASINO operation deal, If they follow the game plan to get money from....Either from Holland or some Other source by Extortion. So that He, the Prime Minister will show that he has delivert all his Promisses and by this securing for the next election another 4 yrs of corruptions. by orquestrating a Diabolic plan where some one innocent girl became a pawn which was sacrified.

[/quote]
well, they've been lying since 30th of may, 2005. now they're turning on each other to take the heat off of themselves.  this could possibly, if mos and jorg are watching closely, get very, very interesting.  i was beginning to think they were going to get away with this, but maybe not.  thanks to the courage and tenacity of dave and beth and their families and friends.  include the american media in that also.
dennisintn
[/quote]

I hope so dennis..Dompig didn't say squat after that article as it's probably not too smart to call a Supreme Court Judge a liar. The Judge speaking out made everyone look more corrupt,especially Dompig and Janssen.

Michael Posner owns and operates the Excelsior, Holiday Inn,Brickel Bay and Grand Holiday Casinos

Good one!

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

What an odd reality the riddle has taken on.

Wow.

Great English syntax here.

 


I do not find it 'interesting'......I find it frightening!! They will never find her if Aruba is involved in any way, shape or form in the search.

After all the comments about the Shango thread...LOL it's not his/her thread...ask Lala's.... I thought I would bring this over that I found when I followed one of COLUMBOS'S 'clues'.

quote.....
Found this in a link that Columbo left the other day....still don't know what does or doesn't hold water, but this is a weird thing for Nadira or Satish to say. Remember she and Luis were questioned June 2nd and Luis again on the 18th.

This is from June 23rd CNN...

Satish Kalpoe to mom: 'We didn't do anything'

The mother of the Kalpoes said Thursday that one son had admitted he and his brother made up a cover story to protect Joran Van Der Sloot.

Nadira Ramirez told CNN she was permitted to visit son Satish Kalpoe at Aruba's prison within the past week. She stressed that the teen told her their story was not planned ahead of Holloway's disappearance, and she had no advance knowledge of it.

At Christmas time, a couple of 'respected' (if ANY are) psychics here in the U.S. predicted Natalee would be found in February. At the time, I was disappointed because it meant that The Persisitence would have been a failure. Now I am thrilled -- because it just may mean they are right!!!! I never dreamt that The Persistence would be putting MONTHS into this search. God bless them!!

Thought you all may find this interesting if you're willing to accept it-

To date, the Aruban police and dive team has been a tremendous help.  They've honestly done a great job. Over the last month we've established a very good working relationship based on openness and trust.  Most of the relationship success was due to getting the media out of the way and working together shoulder to shoulder over time.  We've helped each other however and whenever we can.  They've treated us with decency and respect and we have treated them as friends and allies, which they are. Most of the police and divers are new since this case started and both eager and careful to do things right.  I wish we had a month ahead of the project just to establish the relationships and trust. I know many of you would likely doubt this view, but it's based on the experiences in the field of the entire search team. I too was extremely worried, paranoid, and suspecting in the beginning.  Now, it's clear we're all working towards a common goal.   

That is great news Kyle. I am glad to hear it too because I imagine you have to have a great sense of trust for the work must get very dangerous at times and knowing that you are watching out for each other as you dive into the deep must be very reassuring. Keep up the great work!! The laws of the land of Aruba should be left at the shoreline as it appears they do!!! No goofy ministers breathing down your necks out in the sea...they would never last since they have no kahunas...is that how you spell them? lol

Good Morning to all!!  Janet...mine won't even let me bring the Scrabble board out of the closet ::MonkeyTongue::  Lisa.....thank goodness we are having a heat wave for the diggie Parade!  Wish you could join us....but I know duty calls!! 

Hi Mic....welcome!!

Interesting post from the darkside. Same newspaper that posted the Julia is not a suspect article. Owned by ATA/ Oduber??

In April 2007, Diario newspaper published articles alleging pre-election bribery offer by the Namdar Group of New York in a letter to an opposition member of from a former MEP campaign leader. MEP leader and Prime Minister of Aruba, Nelson O. Oduber –who had signed the Declaration of Chapultepec on May 24, 2004—called for “a complete boycott against one and all who have anything to do with Diario” in a full page advertisment April 2 in the newspaper Solo di Pueblo.

thanks OE...that is great news.....

lol so mip6 has some competition?

I agree!!! finally a warm weekend!!! My doggie would freak around all the other doggies..lol

I do not own the Shango thread...I just post over there and lately it's been hard to keep up.  I do wish others would venture in and take a look. I have noticed that in the latest theories..the Kalpoes are certainly left out of the equation...hmmmm.

In 2002, the Editor in Chief of Aruba Today was Vanja Oduber.  Those Oduber's seem to be into a lot of the newspapers.

i had a dream i was wrastling with paulus and hoe tapocrapo

i knocked both of their teeth down their throats


and they were searching for months on the beaches for their teeth

then anita came out dressed in her bathing suit trying to help and they both knocked her teeth out  ::MonkeyHaHa::


my thought imprint on this... evil doers are plan old evil  ::MonkeyCool::

Robots, it was the coffee.  Anita in a bathing suit was the nightmare part of
the dream. ::MonkeyLaugh::

anitasaurus KNEW joran was out of control

she knew it - she knew he was out all hours of the night - she knew he was drinking - she knew he was not a sporter - she knew he is addicted to gambling and booze

she knew


she simply hoped all would be ok in the end

well guess what anita - it didnt

continue to put your head in the sand and you will be going thru this the ret of your life
or come clean NOW...

yes,, the coffee and i have to correct myself

it was a nightmare  ::MonkeyLaugh::

but the really interesting thing is they kept searching night after night for their teeth
on the beach... the problem was - WHEN I KNOCKED their teeth down their throat
we were not on the beach........

the beach was not the place where made them swallow their teeth


neither was Natalee

but robots....if he could just put this all behind him and start with a clean slate.....he would be oh so different....the poor boy....from the maligned island.....was Anita's major Art and Drama??

yep, i hear ya

anita is poison - she knew

she knew it all

and she knows it all

and she decides to cover it up

she is evil

ot for a moment

relative said to me the other day 

"i dont want to talk to you anymore you are making me angry"


i said, "thats fine, GET IN LINE behind everyone else that doesnt want to talk anymore with me" ::MonkeyHaHa::


the truth hurts sometimes

they called an hour later....... all is forgiven i said

no more sugar coating by robots 


anita is evil

aruba is sinking into their own


i spoke with a travel agent yesterday- aruba travel is slow
 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

what better way to gather information ?

pretend to help the family from the get go but you are really trying to find out what the family knows for information


hmmmmmmmmmm

sound familiar

Article from arubahuis for May/June 2005, case coverage.

http://www.arubahuis.nl/documents/noticiero/2005mei-juni.pdf


CABINET OF THE AGENT MINISTER VAN ARUBA R.J. SCHIMMELPENNINCKLAAN 1.2517 JN THE HAGUE TEL.: (070) 356.62.00 Aruba left with vermiste...... American teenager Natalee Holloway


Complete Aruba keeps track of Natalee Holloway the events around the vermissing of the American teenager little girl. The island left intesiefmee; several saint missing has been dedicated in the hope that the little girl is found. Holloway have been since 30 May last. Vermist after a holiday of a number of days in Aruba. So far levies justice five suspected arrested. Since its vermissing Natalee Holloway ` breaking news have been on all American television senders. About seventy American journalists are in Aruba follow the matter. Also Natalee's parents its to Aruba come of near the developments be able follow. Agent minister mevr. Ella tromp Yarzagaray speak the hope from which this matter for both the family and for Aruba is rapidly solved.

Natalee with about hundred other school friends from Mountain Brooke high school had come to Aruba celebrate that they succeeded products for their middle school. The group stayed in the Holiday Inn hotel. According to witness declarations Natalee on the evening for its disappearance in the local bar Carlos & were; Charlies's and left the bar vervolgens with three boys. More later products these three boys taken up, because they will have considered Natalee possibly as lasts still in life. More later products beveiligingsbeambten also two, which work at a hotel beside the Holiday Inn, arrested. Meanwhile they have been released and are the three boys, J. of of the ditch, S. Kalpoe and D. Kalpoe still in voorarrest. Moreover also a dj of party boat tattoo, S. Croes have been arrested concerning this matter and recently also the father of J. of of the ditch, the judge in training P. of of the ditch. Meanwhile he and S. Croes have been released.

The local authorities have aid of FBI agents who have come to Aruba and of experts of the forensic institute from the Netherlands in the search to vermiste little girl. More than 700 volunteers 6 June of Aruba Monday afternoon in search of aanwijzigingen concerning the disappearance of the American studente Natalee have combed Holloway. The North - and East coast, Seroe Colorado and the national park Arikok has been searched closely. Around two hours collected

Itself at the sport complex of Santa Cruz hundreds of citizens, soldiers, marechaussees, members of the Visibility team, the Warda nos Costa and parkrangers of Arikok. Under the citizens a lot of civil servants were. They had given interview to a recall of the minister of justice, Rudy Croes. He had said that every civil servant who participates to the search savage was exempted for this from service. Croes were themselves also present and spoke with the press concerning the aim of the massive search operation. ` the community shows that sea r wants everything to do nom Holloway, thus find Croes

All large television - and radio stations in the United States bring the last bulletins concerning the search to the current link to Natalee Holloway on the baffle. It happens however much more often that Americans disappear without the media give to that much attention. The question is what disappearing Holloway to headline neiuws makes in America?

Internationally report donor Michael Norton levies a theory for which net disappears of Natalee Holloway such important news becomes is, anyway in the United States: ` save that ditz o large have become lie among others that Holloway the belichaming of miss America is. But them is fair, beautiful, intelligent, assured, does benevolence, is nice, is member of the bible club, comes from a neat, warm family, calls on. She is the American Dream. She goes on holiday to an island which is seen already seen of the most safe spots on ground, but says a paradise, and there vedwijnt them. Miss America is Missing. (read further on page 2)

Tourists who are now on Aruba say be on their hoede. Of real fear however no talk is, people consider it happened generally already seen onfortuinlijk incident. In several programmes on the American television visitors could be heard. Generally one is extremely enthusiastic concerning Aruba. Also at ATA flow prove to be of medeleven and the thankses within. A seizure from the responses:

` thank for everything what you do concerning the vermissing of Natalee. ` our heartfelt excuses for what concerning Aruba spreads some television senders for unpleasant things. ` for us are Aruba the most safe place on ground. We come there already thirteen years. ` we come for years on Aruba and have been never approached with drugs. However, we have seen that tourists were of drugs in search.

Minister-president Nelson Oduber (MEP) kept a press conference for the international press. The minister-president tried nuance the reporting concerning Aruba in the international media by among others indicating how hard the arubaanse authorities has worked the previous years for combating drug crime and launders.

Oduber said themselves disturb to the tone which the news on some American senders begintaan to take. Especially on fox News Aruba in some reportages is depicted already seen dangerous spot with overall drugs, where women disappear regularly.

The premier told with its vrous long with the parents of Natalee Holloway to have spoken. He said that the matter him if father strongly attracts also personal. Mr Oduber emphasised close cooperation which there is always with the American authorities. Also he mentioned its recent visit to the united State where he both with minister Condoleeza Rice and with the governor of Alabam concerning the vermissing of Holloway heft talked.

Other international press distances himself moreover of the tendentious reporting on fox, Michael Norton van Associated Press IAP): ` I think that Aruba has been suffered still exactly as safe as two weeks. This is simply a case of breakdown. Really not all media think that this is a drug paradise. The most of our think that Aruba is a terrible island with pleasant people whom only now the breakdown levies that this happened here. Also a journalist of CBS wants emphasise that the tale of premier Oduber cannot be intended for CBS be. we do not depict Aruba badly, and that also in the future will do.

At for the perse of this number are possible new developments have to are occurred.

 
 
 

There very presence disrespects his very memory as he truly believed the future of Aruba was tourism and his own son and brother have sold out the island in pursuit of personal enrichment to the drug lords, and it is his guilt of the above crime that has allowed the Dutch locals to force his cooperation in the coverup to protect this Dutch punk despite the harm to Aruba.

I don't know but his "date" looks dressed very "festive" for a funeral.  I think of Idstlou's sig. line: "Get inside my belly"
[/quote]

How hard is it to find a pair of pants that are 40W and 30L? ::MonkeyRoll::
[/quote]

lol so mip6 has some competition?
[/quote]

There very presence disrespects his very memory as he truly believed the future of Aruba was tourism and his own son and brother have sold out the island in pursuit of personal enrichment to the drug lords, and it is his guilt of the above crime that has allowed the Dutch locals to force his cooperation in the coverup to protect this Dutch punk despite the harm to Aruba.
[/quote]


They all would look more apropos wearing prison stripes in a police line-up since all are corrupt as hell, especial that turd Eddie Briesen.

Answer: They wouldn't And defending them is what is making Aruba a laughing stock.

Amyumu the chimpanzee trounced a British memory champion in a memory contest. As if they needed to do this test for memory supremacy. All one had to do was ask Aruban officials, suspects in the Natalee Holloway case and those that wish to spin the stories how good monkeys memories are. They have been righting wrongs and correcting lies for 2+ years. Word to the wise … don’t ever question a monkeys memory. Don’t ever challenge a monkey to a memory contest when armed with a computer … some people never learn.

I used to think like that too Sharon.  Until I realized English may not be the first language for a lot of people...

Dayhiker ... Peter Devries said it best on the P&W Show ... the P&W Show which hosted Paulus, Anita and Joran as guests.

Janet

+++++++++++


Translation: EURobert - FP Comments
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2522.msg328035;topicseen#msg328035

Peter Devries
P&W SHOE
January 11, 2008

Pauw: Peter… Peter you a father of a teenager, well maybe that’s a bit insipid, father of a young daughter… You can imagine you do something… leaving a girl at the beach… Let’s just tell I decently brought her back…. Such a little lie you can imagine can you?

Peter: No, I can’t imagine that Jeroen… I think you must try to see the psychology behind that. When he doesn’t know what has happened to that girl and she, after she slept away her drunkenness, simply shows up again then he is really caught lying! The fact that he nevertheless tells this lie you can interpret as: he knew he wouldn’t get caught telling this lie. Because he knew Natalee wouldn’t show up again!

I had to laugh yesterday when Renfro posted the Solo di Pueblo article.  Someone over at RU said "what is Solo di Pueblo, I've never heard of them".  I thought to myself, after almost 3 years following the case they never heard of Solo di Pueblo?  Just shows you how superficial some of these posters are.  They read what is posted at RU and never do their own research.

 

Fixed the "looping" problem and the size problem.  Click on the play button:    ::MonkeyCool::


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/PretzerCommentary5.swf

I have been hearing an awful lot lately about monkey recall and analysis, and this definitely speaks to the monkeys being smart but the author has not met our head monkey Klaas, or he/she would be writing about Klaas' memory. 

snipped from KLAAS [/quote]

I had to laugh yesterday when Renfro posted the Solo di Pueblo article.  Someone over at RU said "what is Solo di Pueblo, I've never heard of them".  I thought to myself, after almost 3 years following the case they never heard of Solo di Pueblo?  Just shows you how superficial some of these posters are.  They read what is posted at RU and never do their own research.

 
[/quote]

YES!!! ITA Klaas!!  ::MonkeyLaugh::

Klaas this is great.  ::MonkeyDance::

Thanks San, I'm getting there  ::MonkeyWink::

Now if I can just figure out how to make my own radio buttons (play, forward, reverse, stop) Then I can make special monkeys ones, lol  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Aruba, it is simple to bring the Ritz to Aruba,

SERVE BETH A PLATTER OF "JUSTICE FOR NATALEE" AND PROVIDE A JUST ENVIRONMENT FOR YOUR CITIZENS AND TOURISTS. SO SIMPLE AND AFFORDABLE.

MUCH BETTER THAN SPENDING MILLIONS DEFENDING VIOLENT, PERVERTED, BUFFOONS.

ANITA, IF JORAN DOESN'T TELL THE AUTHORITIES WHAT HAPPENED SOON, I WAS TOLD BY A PSYCHIC THAT THEY ARE POSITIVE THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THEIR CALENDERS TO SEE WHEN THEY HAVE SOME FREE TIME TO VOLUNTEER TO EXTRACT THE INFORMATION FROM HIM.

THINK OTHERWISE OR DISMISS AS CRAZY? WHY DON'T YOU WISH IN ONE HAND AND POOP IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH HAND FILLS UP FIRST, THE PSYCHIC TOLD ME.

HE IS NOT ESCAPING PROVIDING ANSWERS AND FACING CONSEQUENCES ACCORDING TO THIS PSYCHIC. IT IS YOUR CHOICE, MOTHER. YOU CORRECT JORAN OR OTHERS WILL DO IT FOR YOU THE PSYCHIC SAID.

NATALEE DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE, ACCORDING TO THE PSYCHIC.

Psychics, I don't believe in them personally, but those in the know in Aruba may know more about this type of medium than I.

ALL IT WILL TAKE IS ONE MORE ENCOUNTER WITH PETER DEVRIES, ONE MORE INTERVIEW. DO YOU WANT TO RISK IT?

Good day All Monkeys,

My eye are tired, brain cells are all on fire, excuse me for sometimes for posting typing errors or not perfect grammer, while trying to solve the riddle. My brain cell + 4 Computers are thinking in all possible scenarios, Current events, Political Events, Time Lines etc at the same time tried to ask questions, type, Decode, reassemble, re-analysis and reading information written from diffrent source of document written in 4 diffrent languages (DUTCH, PAPIAMENTO, SPANISH, ENGLISH can makes for these errors.

it is like trying to watch a Harry Potter Movie at High speed forward, understand a scenario and then rewind to put it in normal speed to read it while keeping on eye where you have heard or see a similarity in a scene that is going to happend or in this case already happend and not forgetting the questions asked to the SM Board to input in the instant flash scenarios that my synaptic are given me back.

I will solve this riddle. 

and overview of the riddle movie that I see already in the making for what I have discovered from this riddle is:

it's a DRAMA, Suspense and Mystery movie all wrap in a deal package involving a Simple Conspiracy to get the MONEY to build the promised Ritz Carlton Hotel from and Self centered Egotistic Prime Minster and its Ministers Gangster WARS between the DUTCH PAIRLAMENTS and the Aruba Government for not given them to the MONEY for the sell of the PlantationBay Project.

Scene: Kiddnap a USA born Tourist and in this form force the DUTCH GOVERNMENT to release the MONEY and Also with the help from some one in the AHATA's well established MOB Controlled Tourist Enterprises to stage a KIDNAPP turning in a MURDER SCENE, with the promise to the actors in a form of a payback.

Resulting in EXTORTION MONEY GAINED to keep everyone happy. but leaving a real Victim in this case.

It must be playout as a real live event: REPOTERS and ACTORS, JUDGES, need to be to be there.

Consequences for the Bussines and Economies (TEEPEES) which will be hurting.

Fallback plan:
Will be the implementation of a Fiscal reform to get more money from the businesses in Aruba. The Fiscal  Reform that even the DUTCH PARLAMENT has thrown out the window because it hurts the economy. Anyone that has establish a business and have worked hard would not like to loose their business will comply by this Legal form of Extortion.

The Harvest: More Money from the Aruba and USA well establish enterprises. 120 thousant living souls and 2 + millions from other part of the world.
 
What we need to find out is who is playing what Part in the names in this Extortion / Murder movie.

Why they did it, MONEY
For What was the MONEY: A promised Project

My mom (77) says allways that "even strong jeans, if wear to much will get torn apart, but when washed, the fabric will come lose and when put through the dryer, the heat is so hot, that the fabric come loose and shreds"

so let them keep wearing the lies and we will keep washing till the fabric come loose, and when we applied the heat (the questions?), we will see all the lies and the monkeys can shred them by applying US Justice for all who is in the part.

My Task is to Decode and with help of other Monkeys we will Prevail for Natalee so that she can REST IN PEACE.


Klassend:

The Bondia newspaper this morning, Julia Renfro is getting herself out of the mess with a letter from the O.M. Aruba.
We have not even start the washing cycle yet and already she want to put protected armor coating on her self.

If she is clean there is no need for protected coating

THE CODEBREAKER

aha...

Caps

A little more rest couldn't hurt.

Why would kidnapping an American force the Dutch to give Oduber anything.

If I was that high up to develop this plan, I would pick an American unaccompanied by 100 friends and I would not send Huey Dewey and Louey to do the job. I could see some insight into covering up the demise of an American Tourist once the tragedy happened, but not in the conspiracy of planning the kidnapping.

Did you mean to post this on the Shango thread?

Are you sure you don't have a sister named jenna?

Nifty creation Dana certainly grows on me as I listen to him

From Vanity Fair
In those tumultuous first days, Beth's most valuable allies were Julia Renfro, the 37-year-old American-born editor of an English-language daily, Aruba Today, and one of her reporters, Angela Munzenhofer, a tough-talking American whose family runs one of the island's popular restaurants. When Beth walked into the paper's office the day after she arrived, Renfro, a statuesque blonde, stopped the presses to run a front-page photograph of Natalee. Renfro and Munzenhofer both have children, and they identified with Beth's desperation; the three women became inseparable. The first flyers posted around the island carried two numbers people could call with tips: Renfro's and Munzenhofer's cell phones. "

Capslock - sorry I was playing around with some software and just saw you post.

So what happened to Natalee - where is Natalee?

Who the heck is Jenna? 

Jenna is a conspiracy theorist at RU.  I guarantee CapsLock is not related to Jenna  ::MonkeyWink::

Both versions can't be the truth.  You don't suppose Julia would tell a bold faced lie, do you?




The NEWS

Saw this today on THE NEWS.  Timely, isn't it?   

THE POSTER ISSUE

Glenda Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:48 am   

BhamMom wrote:
According to Glenda, Julia said this was the poster created before arriving in Aruba. 

GLENDA
Not true Bham, you can read my posts back to 2005. I don't know when it was made. Beth gave the Original Hootie "Flyer" on June 1st around 10 am. Beth told Julia that she had made Kidnapped Posters the day before at The News with a picture from Natalee's Camera, but van der Straaten wouldn't allow her to put them up. Beth was very angry at van der Straaten. Julia took the original "flyer" with the 5x7 color photo and made copies of it for her and returned the Original back to Beth. The phone # on the poster was Beth's local #. I don't know if she rented it or if it was a prepaid.
Beth told Julia that the Detective told her that Natalee was in a drug house and would reappear in a few days, that she should just go to the beach and drink pina coladas and wait. Beth established Natatee's character again as she had done the evening before on the phone and stated that Natalee was being held against her will and she had to get her before something happens to her.


Then the Missing Poster was made at ZEROX on June 2 and that is when Beth dragged Vadar to the Police Station. On June 3rd, Beth was repremanded by the ALE for standing on the Street Corner at Renaissance passing out Kidnapped posters to passing cars.

That is the extent of what I know about Posters and Flyers. 

----------


The Vanity Fair version is what we were told early on, that Julia and Angela had their private numbers on that poster because all were concerned that much valuable information could have been easily intercepted by those two.

So why is she saying something different now?  Because Liars lie?

Just wondering.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

.
 
 
 
 

magnolia, thank you ma'am.  you've just ripped another talking point out of julia/gelien's script.  if beth brought those flyers from alabama with her, how would she have known what munzenhofer and julia's telephone numbers were??

Julia lie?  Say it isn't so!!  ::MonkeyShocked::

O/T Klaas, Post 1284 in the S&S Thread was supposed to be here, the one I just posted.

Could you please delete it from the Shango Thread.  Lord knows they don't need any more confusion over there!


 ::MonkeyHaHa::

The local Dutch blackmailed the Aruban's into allowing the coverup, so now maybe the Arubans will blackmail the Dutch government for the blackmailing done by their agents, the local Dutch of Aruba?


Really, Aruba, the Ritz will look funny empty there, but for money laundering purposes, the more expensive the lodgings, the more money the project can wash. Why fool with $140-$200 per room increments when one can have $300-$1000 increments done in each load. Just like the $65,000,000 project your uneducated boy from modest means who holds a government job, promoted up from his previous job as a lab technician, is some how able to afford to build. Rudy is certainly living in a thriving economy. Average Joe Aruban, is life good for you too?

She hadn't even met them yet and didn't know they existed.  And yet she knew their cell phone numbers, both of them, according to themselves in the VF article.

Amazing!  Maybe Beth is psychic, too?  ::MonkeyRoll::


Otherwise, somebody is lying big time and it would have to be Julia.  Anyone who has ever met Beth, even heard her speaking, would know she was not the creator of that Hootie poster.  It's totally out of keeping with her personality but oh, so very Julia.  She goes for the Soap Opera approach to everything that I have seen from her and this is much more in keeping with that level of intelligence.

. ::MonkeyConfused:: 

I think I answered your post over there.  ::MonkeyShocked:: Leave it...I am the only one confused.

Caps

1.   I am confused.  Is your theory distancing Joran and Paulus from implication in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway or ... are Paulus and Joran participants in the conspiracy.

2.  I can only assume if Julia Renfro is receiving a letter Hans Mos that absolves her of all accusations directed at her by Castillo and Young ... there should also be a letter forthcoming to Beth and Jug  from the prosecutor.

Janet

Too late, I just deleted it as Anna requested

Julia is a real saint, a real trooper, and she speaks with a forked tongue, which I am sure has resulted in her being an island favorite. We should all pitch in and buy her some knee bads, as she ain't getting any younger, and whenever her mouth is empty and her lips moving, she is lying.

MAGNOLIA ... GREAT CATCH!!!

http://www.vanityfair.com/fame/features/2006/01/natalee200601?currentPage=1

Klaas, this creation of yours is AWESOME!

 ::MonkeyDance::

Capslockwizard,  It's clear to me you have done a lot of work in a short time to decode the Shango and Simian Posts. 

Some of your theory backs up some of what I feel is true:
 
Natalee was targeted,
she was kidnapped by J2K,
Paulus was involved in the beginning, not just after the fact,
Julia Renfro is in it up to her eyeballs, 
Extreme threats have been issued to those who would talk in the form of beheadings, mutiliation deaths, one-hand-in-pocket hanging suicides indicating involvement of MOB, drug lords
Casinos = MOB
the collusion permeates the highest officials in the government and judiciary

I have often thought of why Paulus would be involved in targeting Natalee.  One scenario I feel is possible, is that he owed a debt to someone, whether a gambling debt, or some other type of debt involving his dirty business dealings with government contracts. 

IMO, the fact that Joe Tacopina is representing the Van der Sloots confirms Paulus' dirty business/MOB connection.

Michael Posner, Excelsior casino owner, is a convicted felon who did time in federal prison for Racketeering (MOB)

    * aka Michael Rubins and Irving Goldstein.

    * his family still resides in Riverwoods.

    * his criminal profile lists involvement in illegal gambling, strip clubs and vending machines.

    * criminal history dates to 1960 includes numerous arrests and successful tax and racketeering prosecutions. 


 

Excellent research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder how many tips she actually received versus how many she gave Beth?

Another one of the Renfro/Gielen/Alberto lies=time of arrival.
Beth has always said that they left Birminham at around 5:45PM
That would be 6:45PM Aruba time.
The flight time Birmingham to Aruba is around 4 hours, runway to runway.
That would put Beth and company in Aruba at exactly the time she has
always stated; at around 11:00PM

Except for the confession by Joran that something bad happened and she was buried by the fishermans hut and no father would allow his son to be persecuted for the rest of his life as Joran will be for a crime the father committed himself, or no mother. And the recording of the boys when they thought they were alone. The chances are this is simple and the story has been told by the boys own words and actions.

Thanks, Magnolia!  I knew this was documented somewhere!

On what planet does law enforcement allow posters with personal numbers instead of a police tip line?

Klaasend:

Got an email today from DH, why took so long?

Other thing, for anyone that is with the riddle:

music = news

Music = News reporter

Only those who Rave music go into the Maze

There is more than one house of music
the Lamb is a Scapegoat

I agree PI.  This was a planned rape gone bad.  Then they called the father to
hide the body.  The total confusion comes in the cover up.

Hey Private Eye,

I'm just trying to give capslock some info on the people he has been asking about.

I don't exclude Joran's culpability by suggesting his father was involved early on. 

After seeing the casino video with Paulus at the table, and his lies about his timeline, do you not believe that Paulus had some type of involvement early in the evening, prior to cover up mode?

I don't think that the involvement of Paulus and J2K is mutually exclusive.

So you think the reason Paulus lies and distances himself from having seen Natalee early in the evening, is solely because of his involvement in disposal?

Perhaps I have put too much importance on Paulus appearance in the casino early that night.  I just have had the feeling he played a bigger part.

Oh, I don't think you are the only one confused, Lala's.

I made two posts.  The first is OK, the one you answered but the second one is redundant as it was meant for here but I don't think at this point, it really matters.  Just didn't want to interrupt anyone's chain of thought.

I never heard of this The News place before and now here it is popping up everywhere!  What a small world!  {Anna humming Disney Tune by that name}   ::MonkeyHaHa::

That old hack moves her lips to give a bj, kiss butts, or lie because she is getting too old for the old farts, since she is past 16 or 17.  The old ones are put to some use as long as their lips move and their fingers can type for lying, etc.,         Jack blue

Private eye

are you related to

Buck eye

Why would anyone kidnap someone to pay off the mob?

The mob I know is perfectly capable of doing their own kidnapping.

Didn't Mos tell us that only the prime suspects plus Paulus are involved according the the dossier that he has seen?  He further stated that involvement of others is fabrication only.

So is he just telling us this to fool us or what?

.

klassend: where is buck eye?

he left or is in the background

OK, looks like I cleared the place out with my comments about Paulus' involvement, LOL

I'm sure Natalee was drugged and kidnapped by J2K.  I'm sure there was a confession that something bad happened.  I'm sure Natalee was disposed of and many are involved in the cover up.

The only thing some seem to disagree with me about is the depth of Paulus' involvement.  I'm not that attached to any of my theories, as they can change based on solid information.  The problem is, we don't have that much solid information.

Since I cleared the place, I'll just sneak on out.....

Looks like Buckeye has logged off for now. 

I guess my mind just cannot go to Paulus being involved in anything more than
helping with the disposal and cover up.  It is just too ugly to picture.
I do not think this was a complicated crime.  Only the cover up is complicated.

I think that he looks a lot llike John Candy in 'Uncle Buck'.

You are sooooooo talented.  I enjoy seeing what you have put together for us each day.  In this show Joran looks a little skinny to me, kinda like he has an illness. (MO)

Is PVDS an Aruban "Svengali"?



Do Aruban's ever go to the casino with their wives or daughters?  Or, it that activity reserved for father's and their sons?

Are their any security recordings of PVDS leaving the casino?  Walking around?

Who were among the group that did 'this' twenty other times?  Nothing bad happened?  In whose opinion?  Anyone ever poll those twenty girls?

What house in Aruba is so big that girls ask Joran if that's his?  The VDS compound?  Another house somewhere?  Perhaps belonging to someone in the circle of friends?

I am saying I can see the logic and have gone down that road, but what stops me is what I posted. There may be a way to reconcile it, I just haven't figured it out yet:) The boys were boys, and usually when a boy cries he utters the truth, and then he recovers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I speculate ... if there was a bigger picture and the plan by the "powers that be" was to kidnap Natalee ... a judge's son would not be placed in a position of being observed by ... how many ... as leaving C&C's with Natalee ... never to be seen again with no established alibi.  His declarations would have been consistent ... no changing stories.

I believe there was a plan that night ... a plan of wrongdoing which involved drugs and gang rape ... a plan that went off without a hitch twenty times before ... a plan that implied that Natalee Holloway would be on her plane home the following morning without any memory of the previous night ... a plan that went terribly wrong.

Janet


++++++++++

Jossy Mansur
'Scarborough Country'
August 26, 2005

DANIELS:  It definitely smells that way.  You know, if you take the prosecution‘s statement at its face, we are talking on a whole new level, the charges here.  We are talking about drugs.  We are talking about rape and we are talking about rape of many different people.  There are four guys now in custody, four best friends.  What does that tell you?
 
MANSUR:  Well, what it tells me is that, really, these four guys are friends.  They belong to the same group, these party boys that go out and prey on young, unsuspected girls or other kinds of girls also that are out to have a good time, not suspecting what they‘re in for with these predators around.

And they are—they not only appear in photographs together, but I understand that Freddy lives very near to the Joran house.  So, there is a bond between them.  There is a group that they call themselves the pimps, in which all of these participate.

__________


Joran's Changing Stories

1.  Natalee was dropped off at the Holiday Inn and ... Deepak and Satish drove me home.

2.  Deepak and Satish dropped me off at home and ... left with Natalee in the vehicle

3.  I left Natalee at the beach and ... walked home.

4.  I left Natalee at the beach and ... Satish drove me home.

5.  I left Natalee at the beach and ... Deepak drove me home.

6.  I left Natalee at the beach and ... Satish drove me home.

7.  We drove to the lighthouse.

8.  We did not drive to the lighthouse.

9.  ......

Thank you, KLaas, I had tried to listen previously and could not.  Dana does such good commentary (no great commentary).  I know the hoodlums on Aruba would disagree with me, but that is what they are being paid to do, deny the truth.

Interesting post , nothing more nothing less.........

+++++++++

charlescroes
Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005, 05:10 PM
Just another Marriott money grab , hopfully it will take another 2 or 3 years or LONGER there is not a need for any more hotels, as it is now there are enough.

Just what Aruba needs is a Ritz hotel..


YOu have absolutely NAILED IT!! And the size of your hammer is substantial.

There are several consequenses to consider.

Hotel rooms need to be directly tied to air carrying capacity. If there aren't enough airline companies willing to committ to full year service, then you have a serious problem.
The Tax issue was a Tax Holiday. These are well and good when they start but can be a problem when they end. There is a track record of bad experience in this.
Last but (in my opinion) not least important, the amount of rooms that are currently owned by the Marriott out weigh the norm for an island this small. If for some unheard of and crazy reason, that company decided to pull stakes or make severe policy changes, an exceedingly high percentage of hotel employees are involved. Families and their car and home loans and so forth all will come into play. I recall a good saying about eggs and baskets. This kind of a situation could even give the hotel company (supposed to be in the lodging business) political power.
Put the RITZ Carlton in Tahiti and let's call it even.

These are just my opinions.
charles
arubafastphones.com

http://bb.visitaruba.com/archive/index.php/t-1809.html

Magnolia ... I agree.

Although I believe that it is Paulus in the casino recording conversing with Natalee ... I contend that Paulus did not enter the picture again until the "something bad happened".

I think that Paulus' involvement in the coverup is the reason he felt it was important that there was no Natalee/Paulus connection.  In other words ... this is why Joran and Paulus claimed in their declarations and interviews that Paulus left the casino half way through the poker tournament.

However ... Beth knew that there had been a connection ... months prior the the revelation of the leaked security camera recording.

Janet

++++++++++

Beth Twitty
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
September 19, 2005

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9407728/

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, there was a phone call made. And it was just really having me refer to—you know, I‘d only mentioned the fact I had gotten from prosecuting attorney as far as the open line of credit, and that Joran is in his casino gambling, and I don‘t think there was ever a question that Joran and Paulus Van Der Sloot had been in that Excelsior Casino, and, particularly, on the night of the 29th where he and his father met Natalee.

And the cover up would have never become complicated if Natalee's family had
not arrived so soon and been so persistant in their quest for answers.  That blew
the whole cover up into super mode and one lie lead to another and another.
Then the American press picked up on the story and they were sunk.  There was
no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.  They had all lied and could not admit it.

Charles Croes is an old busy body.  He needs his finger in every pie. MOO

Don't recognize him, but further to the left(our right-top pic ) of the lady in orange looks like Governor General Fredis Refunjol.

I recognize at least one more from the Lions den.  ::MonkeyWink::

http://www.arubalions.org/Board/ALC_Board_Members_2005-2006.htm

I have been meaning to address this rumor for 6 months now at SM. It is strictly a rumor that started at RWV(Erased) back in 2005. The story was that Natalee was kidnapped by mistake thinking it was Virgina Page who left a day before the MB group left. I am posting this because I kept a close eye on this thread and it drew my interest for reasons I cant get into right now. Either the interested people were watching this thread for total dis-information or there was some truth to it.
----------------------------------------------
Posted by Kermit
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/843/mbkidswiththeirnames8hlrk1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
left to right front row:
Katherine Weatherly (the girl that Joran said he won her money back)
Virginia O'Neal Page
Ruth McVey
Back row left to right
Francis Ellen Byrd
Liz Cain
Madison Whatley
Holly Brown
Lee Broughton

List of corporations with a major presence in Birmingham, Alabama
McWayne Corporation
O'Neal Steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Corporations_Based_or_Major_Presence_in_Birmingham


Let me see if I can remember this right to explain it:

McWayne has private plane and was going down to Aruba and that is the plane that Beth, Jug and some friends first flew to Aruba on.
Virginia O' Neal Page is one of the graduates of MB and you can see her in the picture I posted above.
Frances Ellen Byrd's father is in construction and one of the projects he constructed was the McWayne Science Bldg. Between FEB's mother and father, they have millions of dollars in this family and a heritage that goes way back. O' Neal has millions as well.
Natalee worked at Harvest Glen Market and that market gets produce from Frances Ellen Byrd's mothers farm - and also the farm has an equestrian center where FEB rides etc etc.

Here is a post that backs up what I was saying:
"It was McWane's president, G. Ruffner Page's daughter, Virginia, that partied at C&C that last night in Aruba with Natalee Holloway. The McWane jet was sent to Aruba to retrieve Virginia. Beth took a lift on that jet.}

http://www.mcwane.com/index.php?page=profile/team
--------------------------
Posted by AKband27
I was doing some searching and ran across a posting at RWV...it was about the day Natalee went missing and Beth and her group went to Aruba on the McWane plane with McWane President G. Ruffner Page, Jr on board...the article also said maybe they were suppose to nab Virginia O'Neal Page and got Natalee by mistake...has anyone else heard this? who is Virginia Oneal Page?
Also, way back...there was talk of the McWane plane being on the island the day before Natalee disappeared...does anybody remember this? I have been talking about this with another poster and they also remembered something about this...
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/10/natalee_hollowa_63.html

I remember that theory.  I believe it was advanced by those seeking alternatives to J2K being involved in Natalee's disappearance.  I remember it being linked to Natalee being spirited off the island on the Medjet, etc.

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8715/jpeekth8.jpg)

Come out, Come out you can't hide forever

Just a thought here (not saying I'm buying it yet): IF there was a "kidnapping" plot as in CAPSLOCK's theory -- G. Ruffner Page's daughter would be the logical target. She DOES resemble Natalee. The 3 stooges are hired to abduct her -- they F' it up big time. The boys have to be protected by Aruba or else those that planned it are toast.  Kind of fits -- doesn't it!?!

Yes it could be..Could of been next on the Renee/Julia Misinformation campaign. I had to post that as something has been bothering me for 6 months about this topic.

I was looking for something else and found this old post by 'scubajap'



http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/12/natalee_hollowa_17.html

"YES, saw the Casino tapes, and for the tenth time, NO PAULUS. Not gambling, not in the casino, and NOT meeting Natalee."

?

"The first flyers posted around the island carried two numbers people could call with tips: Renfro's and Munzenhofer's cell phones.: (source: Vanity Fair)
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5212/kidnapedposterkt8.jpg)

(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/peakingthrublindscartooncute-1.gif)

Beth Twitty - Birmingham Meeting - Oct. 28, 2006
20. The "Call me Hootie" poster... what is the explanation of that?
TWITTY: This poster is the first that was distributed in Aruba. The Kidnapped posters that were made up to be put up were not allowed to be used. The Call me Hootie poster idea came from Julia Renfro.
Credit: Debbie (BFN)

Thanks, *******.  I never heard that rumor about Virginia, and didn't read at RWV.  But thanks for the pic of Nat's friends. 

HA HA HA *******.

 ::MonkeyLaugh::

Here is some old stuff from the Refugees site -

reddog wrote:


iwabwu wrote:

reddog wrote:

iwabwu wrote:


refugee_lurker_27 wrote:


refugeesunleashed.net/about4826.html  (we don't direct link to RU  ::MonkeyWink::  )

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/SlootInHiding.gif)

ROFL!!!!!!!!! ::MonkeyWink::

Why the cocky look if he is so innocent?

Nobody with such a intricate kidnapping plot would send Joran and the two nit wit
brothers to do the abducting.  That is just totally absurd. 

For the same reason Drew Peterson is cocky.  Neither one of them think a body will ever be found.

His body language gives him away.  His temper gives him away.  The lies give him away.

Or do they just think they are bullet-proof?

Bearly - Sociopaths do think they are bullet proof, that's true. 

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

That's what I am thinking.  He actually reminds me of Scott Peterson and Anita reminds me of Scott's mom...deny, deny, deny.

WhiskeyGirl ... you are thinking about the Renfro/Dompig special ... the special that ... through insinuations ... discredits Natalee ... Beth ... the MB Students ... the FBI ...

Hey ... it  akin to the wild accusations spewed forth in the Castilla and Young so-called press conference.

Janet


The other side of the Holloway-case
‘Police Aruba hindered by FBI’

By Michael Willemse

WILLEMSTAD/ORANJESTAD – The American Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has systematically hindered the work of the police and the judiciary on Aruba in the investigation of the missing student Natalee Holloway. Especially when it came to investigating her direct relatives, mother Beth, stepfather George ‘Jug’ Twitty – who apparently has direct or indirect contacts and influence reaching as far as the White House- but also when it came to investigating the more than 120 fellow students and the chaperones who accompanied them in their trip to Aruba .

“You do your own dirty work”, is what was said to former police commissioner Gerold Dompig in charge of the Holloway investigation by a high ranking FBI staff member.

“Myself and also the field officer of the justice department on Aruba (at that time the European-Dutch Karin Janssen ) not only had to deal with the enormous pressure from the FBI, who arrived on the island in no time, but we were also obstructed and even threatened.”

VIDEO TAPE

So says Dompig on video, who after a lot of insisting was convinced to do so without his person appearing on screen. His voice is recognizable and he mentions his own name on several occasions.

The Amigoe was the first to see the material, which the makers expect will portray a different angle of the case to the world – especially with the American people- a case which in the last two years has been covered by tv-giants like CNN and Fox News, and broadcasted daily in the living rooms and offices in the United States and the rest of the world.

Dompig, who up until May 2006 – when he resigned – led the investigation on Aruba, and three others, who from the start each had their own function after the then 18-year-old girl from the prestigious Mountain Brook at Birmingham , Alabama , did not return to her hotel room on the 30th of May 2005 , are now speaking up. They each feel the importance of sharing this side of the story. Perhaps even the story; the truth. A story where three boys – Joran van der Sloot (at that time aged 17), Deepak Kalpoe (21) and his 18 year old brother Satish (formally still suspects), hardly play a role in anymore.

That story is told to tv-producer Renée Gielen (known for his three documentaries about the Bon Futuro prison on Curaçao) and camera man Dolph van Stapele, who from the start had his suspicions about the case and consequently flew to neighbouring eiland Aruba on several occasions, in search of the truth. Until they managed to make certain persons talk, who’ve been able to shed a different light on what could possibly be the most talked about disappearance ever.

MEDPLANE

They revealed that already one day after Holloway was declared missing, a medplane (medical plane or ambulance-plane) from the US arrived on Reina Beatrix airport and was stationed for a few days in the area of the airport where private jets park. Nothing strange about that on the surface, except that the crew (two pilots, a doctor and a nurse) knew nothing about why they were there. Gielen and Van Stapele also discovered that the plane landed without authorization and was also not registered by the Aruban authorities, while the mysterious landing – even though it was reported to the police in an official unsigned written testimony –was subjugated by the corps to the investigation only months later. This is also the case for other testimonies.

SECRET EXIT

The ambulance plane needed to be used as a secret exit for Natalee to the US . Secret, for the local authorities weren’t allowed to get wind of this – if they succeeded in ‘liberating’ the girl from a drug warehouse in Oranjestad and secretly leave the island.

Angela Dilorenzo, an American living on Aruba and close the Natalee’s family in those first days, talks about the special task she was given by Beth Twitty, Natalee’s mother: “Please do me a favor, after you find Natalee, please cover her up and bring her to the medjet. We’ll take good care of you and they are already awaiting her at the airport.” Angela, who’s married to a restaurant owner on the island, has her voice recorded on the video, but does not appear on screen.

Does Beth then know that her daughter is still (alive) on the island, after she declared to the whole world that the three local boys have done all sorts of things to Natalee and possibly even killed her? Or was the latter merely a ploy to cover up what really happened? Why on the second day of the disappearance is Beth already hanging posters all over Aruba which state that her daughter has been ‘kidnapped’? After which on the same day of the disappearance – also peculiar – when the co-students had only arrived back in Alabama just a few hours, she steps out of a private jet in Aruba with pre-printed flyers under her arm containing a local mobile number, and immediately starts handing them out to the airport personnel? Does Beth know something the rest at that time didn’t know and still don’t know? Angela: “I’m almost convinced that Beth knew where Natalee was from the start.”

She and another American on the island, Julia Renfro, who has also been living on Aruba for years and works as the editor in chief for the English daily paper Aruba Today, have been involved in the case from day one. Natalee’s mother asks Renfro on the 31st of May to help her find her daughter. During the course of several weeks Renfro becomes one of Beth’s confidants and together with Angela one of Natalee’s ‘angels’. Two years after the disappearance of Natalee, Renfro now also tells her story about the side the world doesn’t know.

TELEPHONE CALL

The material shows that Renfro and Angela talk about a phone call which they received from an unknown woman on the 2nd of June 2005 . She knows where Natalee is at the moment, that she’s still alive, but doesn’t want to go back to her mother Beth. For the measly sum of 4000 dollars the caller will say where. But to the complete surprise of Renfro and Angela, Beth did not want to really go in on that and afterwards, after insisting, she was willing to pay no more than 1000 dollars for the release of her own daughter. While the day after they were planning to announce a reward of 10.000 dollars – a sum which will eventually increase to more than one hundred fold.

When Angela declares that she will pay the demanded tip sum out of the cashier of her own restaurant and look for Holloway herself, Beth drops to her knees and says the following. Namely that the girl should be in disguise so that no one will recognize her and brought to the awaiting ambulance plane. “So that she could leave immediately and not have to be questioned by the authorities, the police and certainly not admitted to the Aruban hospital system”, Renfro adds.

But before Angela and Renfro arrive at the drug warehouse, Beth’s careless and especially loud – ‘I’ll burn this place and island down’ – former husband Jug Twitty (in the meantime Beth has now also divorced Jug) had already been there; except for a lot of uproar and panic in the direct vicinity, he achieved nothing. But more importantly, according to both women Jug is responsible for the failure of the ‘rescue operation’ and that Natalee- of which really nothing more has been learned, not even indirectly – still remains and will remain untraceable.

ALBERTO G.

Once again the unauthorized medplane departs to the US, after the crew members have been too clamorous and light about their unknown mission at the bar of the hotel where Natalee had stayed and where now also her relatives and traveling companions sleep for free – the Holiday Inn – they were subsequently fired upon their return. So manager/employee Alberto G. – another person which the tv-producers portrayed (incognito) – of the private airport heard shortly afterwards from one of the crew members of another medplane. Alberto is coincidentally, as he is one of the first who they come into contact with, also the one who guided Beth and Jug around the island. Alberto asks one of the travel companions how they actually plan to get the kidnapped daughter on board the private plane- “If she was supposedly kidnapped, she does not have a passport”, and thus will not be able to pass through immigration – to which the person which sent the plane to Aruba answers: “Do not worry about that. That will be all handled.” The plane which was sent to fetch Natalee, was instructed by the owner of the company leasing private jets, G.Ruffner Page Jr. Page also arranged the private jet which brought Natalee’s mother and her companions to Aruba shortly after the disappearance.

JORAN

If the person who made the phone call with the tip, really knows where Natalee is at the moment, then it would naturally give a different turn to the up until now known facts and this would vindicate Joran van der Sloot, at least of the ‘burden’ which he carries of being the last one who saw her. But this and other peculiarities in any case shed new light into the matter. Not in the least the lies about the three boys, Aruba and the police and justice system on the island , which Beth according to journalist Renfro kept on spreading to all the large American tv-networks who massively tore them apart. So she claims during interviews that at least one of the three raped her daughter and that this information is based on police statements; however she never shows these statements and later on both her Aruban lawyer and head of police Dompig deny the existence of such statements. Another good example is the manipulation of a tape on which Deepak Kalpoe was asked if Holloway had sex with all three to which he replied ‘ No, she didn’t’, while the America popular tv-show Dr.Phil shamelessly turned this into ‘She did’, as was scientifically revealed by the Dutch Forensic Institute.

For months Aruba is world news, but the hospitable population suffers from the constant stream of insults about incompetencies and corruption of the law. It even goes further when the family Twitty calls upon all American tourists to boycott the island, an action which got the open support of governor Bob Riley of Alabama .

Renfro concludes: “The family did not want the truth to be told.”

In the meantime donations are streaming in for the family, out of sympathy for the victims. According to Renfro the donations amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars. The biological father of Natalee – Dave Holloway- doesn’t receive one cent, according to Renfro, but he’s the one who’s searching high and low for his daughter without having dozens of paid cameras on his back.

ENORMOUS PRESSURE

Speaking of the accusations of incompetency. Never before has the Aruban police corps worked under so much international interest. Never before has the pressure been so big. Never before has the interest been so wide. But also, never before has the job of the police and the judiciary been made so difficult (not to mention, impossible). Ex-commissioner Dompig explains that in every country in the world, also and especially in the US , in cases of disappearance the investigators first look at the direct environment of the missing person: the relatives. “Out of respect we did not do that in the first instance.” Dompig continues: “For this wasn’t a normal missing- persons case on Aruba . No, it concerned a high profile missing case which America talked to the Netherlands about on a top level.” So we got a phone call from the Dutch Minister of Justice (Piet Hein Donner, CDA) with the order to: “Take everything out of the shelf”. The Netherlands even sent F16’s with very expensive equipment to make photos of every square meter of Aruba . “We understood more and more that it wasn’t about Natalee Holloway, but about the relationship Kingdom of the Netherlands and the US . This reached as far as the inner circle of the White House in Washington . Reaching Vice-President Dick Cheney. He’s the clue.”

STEPFATHER

Renfro also mentions in front of the camera that the highest American institutions and members of government were involved in the case: “The day after she disappeared the chief protocol got a telephone call from Mrs. Condoleeza Rice, asking him to ask our Prime Minister to put this case at the highest priority.”

But except for the hot breath of the FBI in their neck, the local authorities got frustrated in their work, especially when wanting to know more about stepfather Jug, the extremely wealthy president of Phoenix Metals which also does business with Latin-America. In an investigative case in which money possibly plays an important role, it’s important to also look at the financial picture, explains Dompig with his voice on tape. However it soon becomes apparent that he can forget that thought. “You do your own dirty work”, is what Dompig is told upon telling the FBI-attaché his intention of investigating the stepfather. Dompig: “If that’s dirty work, then it raises a few questions.” But that’s not all. According to the police officer, there is talk of a direct ‘threat’ by the consul-general of the US in the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba . Bob Sorenson is stationed in Willemstad , Curaçao and has naturally taken an interest in the case.

It comes down to that up until now this side of the story, at least as long as Dompig has been at the corps, has never been investigated. As is the case with the co-students and their chaperones, who on the planned day simply returned back home. Only after a lot of insistence did the Aruban authorities get the opportunity to ‘interrogate’ a couple of people. This had to be done in writing on half an A4, whereby the Aruban police was thus not permitted to directly interrogate them and whereby they thus had ample time to think of meaningless answers.

The makers of the images believe their recordings can show that what actually happened, is very different than what up until now has been shown, especially by the American media. In any case they want to open a window about the work ethics of the American federal police, who in no single way have shown their full hearted cooperation to investigate all possible scenarios and to really try and solve the mystery. In contrary, they believe that a lot points to a conspiracy. That it isn’t about Natalee Holloway, but about a lot, a lot of money. That she has become the victim of a case which through circumstances took a different turn than was planned.

NOT ON FBI LIST

The issue in any case raises an incredible amount of questions even after two years to date. That Natalee is not on the FBI’s missing people list, says a lot. And that for one of the perhaps most famous missing student of the world. In the US alone, there are 750.000 reports of missing people each year.

______________

http://www.amigoe.com/english/
http://www.kparuba.com/oldnews.html
03 juli 2007 -- Politie Aruba tegengewerkt door FBI: de andere kant van het verhaal-Holloway.
http://www.kparuba.com/documents/3%20juli%202007%20Politie%20Aruba%20tegengewerkt%20door%20FBI.pdf

I am very curious what De Vries was able to find out on his recent trip to Aruba. I got the impression that he is a man on a mission after getting wine tossed in his face and eyes.

Peter De Vries knows Joran and Paulus are still lying
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2494/joranzi0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Joran knows he knows but is thinking catch us if you can
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/350/apology1mf2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Oh bother, they have been hiding her in the White House all this time just to frame the Delicious Sporter. 

 ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyNoNo::

_{Thank God for the edit button}

I can't imagine that Joran is telling lies to cover up Paulus being the killer.  Joran would not take the blame for anyone else.  Joran would throw his father under the bus if it would help him. 

There is no way Anita would throw Joran under the bus to cover for Paulus.  She would have slapped Paulus senseless for daring to involve her Sporter in anything that would cause him a moment's distress, IMO. 

One last thing on my mind tonight..Some of you may have seen the poster Juan who posted at BFN and said he knew friends of Joran's. Some are very suspicious of him and as you know he is also very involved in virtual flying and airplanes. I watched the sitemeter one day last year during the VDS house search and someone from his hometown in Venezuela was looking up Jorans address Montanja 19 Aruba on google and here at SM. His theory was that Natalee was disposed of by helicopter and was telling us about the heliopads in Aruba. Interesting theory because we know Rudy Croes was caught red handed in that helicopter corruption scandal in Aruba.

(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/240/0725kustwachtqz1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Do you think that would make a lot of noise and cause attention to be drawn there or did you have something else in mind?

No,It would be so simple and easy to do. Would take about 30 minutes roundtrip and Natalee could be in 1000 feet of water far off the coast of Aruba. I am not saying it happened,but I have screen shots to prove everything I posted is true. Something bothers me about that Juan but he could just be a interested person like all of us but actually knows friends of Joran.

I would be very interested to know more about the homes located in the higher elevations on Aruba......the gated communities.  The parts of Aruba that I have seen in reports and photos are not the kind of place I can imagine a wealthy person would live.  There were recently some pics posted here of Briesen and others at a party and the place looked pretty decent, nice pool, etc.  I would love to know who lives up there with the helipads, etc.

Perhaps some of you who have been there can tell us more.



 

Please! I love the avatars here.

That's funny!  ::MonkeyHaHa::
Iran Contra - what's next the JFK, Bin Laden?

Hi Mic!

Why don't you come on over to the Musing thread for a minute and let's talk about what kind of avatar you might like.  You might already have one you want to use.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2531.msg332665#new

Ohmigod, the secret's out, it's a Mormon conspiracy.  Willard Marriott and now Mitt Romney wants to become the leader of the free world so he can cover it.  Poor Jug after working all those years with Ollie North and Dick Cheney, being double crossed by his own.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Mic cannot have Ducky!!!!   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Hi Mic ... Welcome to the cage.

Janet

Hi mic! 

Glad to have a chance to say hello and welcome.

Helen Back

Hi all.



How do you get an avatar ?

Hi mic! 

Glad to have a chance to say hello and welcome.



Icehawk

Hi..You can pick out anything you like and add it/upload it to your profile..If you want,CBB will even spice it up for you for the next holiday  ::MonkeyCool::

Quote from: Icehawk on Today at 07:53:58 PM
Hi all.



How do you get an avatar ?


Hi..You can pick out anything you like and add it/upload it to your profile..If you want,CBB will even spice it up for you for the next holiday 




Cool, thank you.

There is a thread in the Monkey Lounge with some instructions and a screen shot of where in your profile you upload the avatar.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2377.0

I'll go over to the MUSING thread and post a few Monkey avatars I have that I don't think anyone is using.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2531.msg332701#new

Usually by the time you mention it, one magically appears from Klaas or CBB.   Guess the magic is kinda slow tonight.  If you go to the monkey musings, there's a thread for avatars.  I'm an avatar dummy, so they take care of me.

Hahaha!  See what I mean?

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Hi Mic and Icehawk!  Welcome!

Texasmom

Thanks for all the welcomes!

Im in that thread now. Still finding my way around.

Welcome mic730! How are you friend!

Hi everyone! It's been awhile since I posted in with the monkeys. I've been here all along, just lurking and not saying much. You all are so far ahead of me on this case anyway.

 ::MonkeyWink::
fran

Thanks again! This is fun.

Hi fran good to see you.  I have been lurking also.

Thanks for the avatar Klaasend.

Wouldn't you just love to know Peter's thoughts were at that moment?  His look almosts tells you what he is thinking.

Hello friend!
Good to see ya!

Hi Fran, I'm more of a lurker too...I don't post a lot but enjoy everyone else's thoughts on the case.

Love your avatar, so cute. 

Great avatar choices Mic and Icehawk too!

I did not know De Vries went back to Aruba after wine in the face violence. I will be interested to see what he finds.

IceHawk - I posted a couple more avatars in the Musing thread you might be interrested in:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2531.new#new

Yes, DeVries is there right now.  Also a film crew from the A&E channel and of course Dateline is on the Persistence.

Welcome, Icehawk, Fran and Mic. Now I don't feel like the new one on the block.

Good Golly I have missed so much. Did not know Dateline was on the Persistence.

I will too.  I like a MAN on a mission.  Gets them everytime. ::MonkeyCool::

Transcript: Corruption in Paradise?

Tuesday, April 11, 2006
SNip
HOLLOWAY: I identified myself and I was obviously stressed out at that moment. And the first thing he(Jacobs) says "Well how much money you got?" It was like, like to (INAUDIBLE). My brothers looked around and couldn't believe it and then we finally settled down and went off in the back room.

And I was thinking well, you know, what about a search? And I was told "Well, why would you want to do that for?" And I said, "Well, isn't that what you normally do when someone is missing?" He goes, "No, just go on down there and have a good time." But he says, "Watch your drink. That's one thing you better do is watch your drink."

VAN SUSTEREN: Watch your drink why?

HOLLOWAY: He said "People put stuff in it." He told us that several times, GHB.

VAN SUSTEREN: And you think if you had put money on the table at that time for the police would that have made a difference do you think?

HOLLOWAY: Well, not sure, you know. I've wondered about that in the beginning. My brothers also wondered about that. It came up a second time probably three or four months later. He asked us how much money we had and I thought he was asking for reward money that Natalee was located. And, then he changed, kind of changed the subject when I didn't catch on.

HOLLOWAY: Dompig, I think he's on the fence. I think he really does but he always mentioned higher-ups. The higher-ups had his hands tied.

VAN SUSTEREN: Who are the higher-ups, higher-ups in Aruba or higher- ups in Holland?

HOLLOWAY: Well that's what I was trying to figure out. I never have been able to pinpoint who it was. I'm thinking it may be Rudy Croes, but I may be mistaken.

VAN SUSTEREN: And for those who don't know who Rudy Croes is?

HOLLOWAY: He's the minister of justice.

VAN SUSTEREN: And he's an Aruban?

HOLLOWAY: That's correct.

VAN SUSTEREN: Why do you suspect him?

HOLLOWAY: You know he made some comments early on in the case that, you know, 30 days and this case will go away and we'll be back to business. There was a time or two that he had made some statements like that.

VAN SUSTEREN: How did they close the case, I mean they just let it go?

HOLLOWAY: Well, you know, back in November I got word that they're going to give it about 60 more days and close the case and take their hit on tourism and then start back next year just like nothing ever happened.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191377,00.html

Hey *******,
What do you think would have happened if Dave had said he had a LOT of money?

Joran looks like he's about to SNAP!  Guess he did.  But seriously, he looks like he's going off the deep end.

I have a pretty good idea what he was thinking  ::MonkeyWink:: I have never seen anyone look at the sloots the way he did on TV. I watched it a bunch of times and this part of the video was my favorite. First he stared down Paulus eye to eye then his eyes focused on Joran as PVDS was talking,watching them ever so closely..I love it!!!!!!!!The look in this screen does not do the video justice how he really looked at the two liars.
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/Sloot4.jpg)

I wonder if this is the same guy:


http://www.zoominfo.com/search/PersonDetail.aspx?PersonID=981630234


http://www.aboutus.org/MeesPierson.com

This is an international wealth management and capital investment firm.  As you look around and try to research things, it is interesting to see names and speculate how all these people in Aruba's government and AHATA might be connected.  I found a  guy that worked with  Jorge Pesquera, Anthony Blok and a past AHATA guy  “Eduardo de Veer", are in a deal with Hilton Hotels on Cuaraco.  I don't have the link, but I think it was from a news paper.  This is interesting also. 

http://www.aruba.com/news/general-news/ahata-celebrates-its-40th-birthday/

Klaasend:

I need the name of the person that made the poster..

who ever made the poster is the kidnapper / extortionist but I prefer  to use kidnapper now

it is all in the riddle.

peeling the cases apart.

tho distinct case

case 1 a project got kiiled
case 2 Per person got kidnaped and then killed.

I need just the name of who made the flyer that said kidnapped

 

 OH, Hi San, glad to be here.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Every time I go to the 'dark side' I get some kind of fungus and have to turn off my computer! ::MonkeyConfused::

I know, keep away from there then. But I can't help myself.  ::MonkeyRoll:: That's how I find out what the next BS that's going to be coming out of Aruba is. They test their ridiculous theories on idiots, then float on over by boat to be released as Aruba's latest idiotic idea. They really should use some professional writers with original ideas.

 ::MonkeyCool::
fran

Beth says that Julia Renfro (editor of ArubaToday) is the one who put together that first "Hootie" poster.

I believe that Julia Renfro made the first poster. 

 Thanks again Klaasend.

Good question! My personal opinion is he would have gotten answers from Jacobs that first day for a large payoff. Problem is Dave isn't rich and he didn't catch on what Jacobs was asking..Kind of shocking to have a cop ask that question.

thanks

she is the kidnapper from the get to..

will show you soon

Evening, everyone.  Any news from the Persistence?  I've read their blog, but there's nothing definite there. 

I am so glad that someone finally asked Joran some hard questions. And we got to see how well that anger management worked for Joran. Greta softballed her interview with Joran IMO but not Peter.
That's a great shot you posted- actually all the shots posted tonight were great.

Caps, who do you think Renfro kidnapped?  I'm not really following you.

De Vries knows what happened.  He's trying to figure out how to break the truth out of the web of lies these two have spun.

Hi AZ - nothing more than what is on their blog.

That's right after he screamed at De Vries for a apology and did not get it. About a minute later he threw wine on his face.

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyDance:: I love that Renfro is the kidnapper. ::MonkeyLaugh::

I love that shot.  I could have that for a screen saver!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

 :smt045  and I hope he stays with it until it's done!

I don't venture to the darkside much and I prefer it that way.  I wait for the other monkeys to post what they read there it is safer.  ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

Thanks, Klaas.  I have my hopes pinned on them.

I hear DeVries is in Aruba right now too  ::MonkeyWink::

That's good news, too.  I can imagine the Sloots are peeking out from behind drawn curtains, wondering, wondering...  DeVries won't let this go; it's under his skin.  He knows the truth and is not going to stop till he can expose it.  Something is going to happen soon.  I bet Joran is ready to explode.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/SlootInHiding.gif)

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

Spent some time reading at BFN tonight and they have complied a good list of the Dark Sides posts imploding on themselves. Glenda AKA that "reporter' is being exposed.  I knew it was a matter of time.

Everytime I see it I laugh!  ::MonkeyLaugh::

Ha, Ha, Ha, I like the Sloot in the Slats saying.  Also Palus made out like he did not know or even acknowledge NH when the picture was shown.  According to the courts they had reason to believe he was with her on at least two occassions.  Public record there. Also the three would not have kidnapped her by mistake.  They all knew who she was or was not. 

The boys must have done some finder pointing to have all the suspects arrested who were arrested and/or brought in.  It would seem that all were let go because they had no more evidence on them, or so they say, then they did the rest of the three main suspects.  Especially after each piece of physical evidence was hidden and/or discarded, or manipulated.  Someone is still making blackmail loot off this case in one way or another and will until they are put out of their misery.  Jack b

The American Traitor.

How about Columbian neck tie proof??????????????????????????????


Just kidding

::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

Maybe soon...Klass can show Him with a white flag for surrender...LOL!

So Julia Renfro kidnapped Natalee to extort money from her family?  What happened to the party and Joran and Lorenzo? Oops!  Sorry thought I was in the Shango thread... :roll: :roll: :2brickwall:

By Michael Willemse

WILLEMSTAD/ORANJESTAD – The American Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has systematically hindered the work of the police and the judiciary on Aruba in the investigation of the missing student Natalee Holloway


So they had to work a little harder to accomplish their coverup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nope, but I have this  ::MonkeyHaHa::

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/JoranBobbleHead2.gif)

Yep, thats an apt description. I can't think of a reputable newspaper in the States what would have someone like Glenda on their staff. Her bias would be blinding if it were not so laughable. Looks like she got a taste of her own snake oil with Dan and Kelly, the Ghostbusters!

joran is a gambling fool

he thinks he is a great poker player

not much worse in the world than a pathetic gambler that loses - it tends to make their
behavior worse

he sucks at poker

he sucks at just about everything

when angry,,,,,,,,,, joran is a killer 

In Joran's mind he is great at everything.  ::MonkeyRoll::

And I agree he sucks.

That'll work.....but I don't think the words I'm Guilty will ever come out of that mouth..... 

Hey Where Did Everyone Go??

I snuck off and was playing a game  ::MonkeyWink::

LOVE IT!!!!

Another busy Bucati day

(http://www.bucuticam.com/zoom3.jpg)

Not that everyone left but the Joran bobblehead. Forgive me I am still learning to navigate here.

Oh....That's Ok because I had to watch alittle bullriding with the hubby...it really scares Me to watch it live because I'm afraid I will actually see someone get hurt.... ::MonkeyWaa::

NO Problem I Understand! ::MonkeyWink::

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/Sloot4.jpg)


YOU'RE OWN FATHER!

(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5451/missingandkidnappostersxg6.jpg)

Thanks Kermit

(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6553/deepakscarandgardnerscanf8.jpg)

Beth Twitty - Birmingham Meeting - Oct. 28, 2006
20. The "Call me Hootie" poster... what is the explanation of that?
TWITTY: This poster is the first that was distributed in Aruba. The Kidnapped posters that were made up to be put up were not allowed to be used. The Call me Hootie poster idea came from Julia Renfro. Credit: Debbie (BFN)

You are most welcome Miss hooked on Pechanga! Heh Heh.

Kermit - actually it ended up being Harrah's Rincon we went to but I would have rather gone to Pechanga.  Maybe next time  ::MonkeyWink::

I never gamble! I don't like to lose! Okay -- well maybe I did bet once at the dog races. I didn't know what to expect.

Would that be akin to hoof and mouth disease?   jack blue

Losing isn't fun.  We have had some great luck and more often then not, no luck.  We still have fun though and don't go often any more.  Maybe twice a year.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/JoranBobbleHead2.gif)

SURRENDER!!!

CBB  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I Love It! ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::

YOUR OWN SON
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/Sloot1.jpg)

Yea!  I'm in!   ::MonkeyDance::

Don't know how to make a 'fresh' post.  Somebody help me!

CBB, I found the avatar I'd like but don't know how to get it.

I've been following this case from the beginning and have been a faithful reader.  I have also been and continue to be a prayer partner.  God is faithful and just.  He will not forsake any of His children.

Welcome Miss Scarlett!

Welcome Miss Scarlet! And A Big Amen!

I love Peter's ESAD look.  ::MonkeyLaugh::

I also posted some avatars here:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2531.msg332720#msg332720

And some for IceHawk here:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2531.msg332733#msg332733

CBB  ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

Thank you for the welcome hotping!

Welcome Miss Scarlet,IceHawk and Mic  ::MonkeyCool::

Sorry Really OT

If any Good Monkeys live in So CA

I used to live in an area where tornado warnings used to come on TV.. well they just issued one for SoCA... winter storm warning... rain 2-5 inches and blizzards in the mountains. If you know anyone who is not online, maybe they'd like an email.

Thanks,  IBE

Well, I do declay ah!  Welcome Miss Scahlet!

Hi IBE - yeah I heard we are in for alot of wind tonight.  Stay safe and inside!  Do you get flooding in your area?

Thank you *******.  You're a smart monkey - I haven't seen any one mention in a while when Joran told one of the brothers (I think) "they control you, same as they control me."  Do you remember which conversation that stemmed from?

Thank you Helen, and yes, I am a genuine Southern Belle.  ::MonkeyDance::

Thanks :)..Not sure,as it never caught my attention before..But now that you bring it up I am interested..My guess would be the police car tapes?

wasn't that from the "secret" police van recording? 
dennisintn

Miss Scarlet - Wasn't "They control you the same as they control me" said in the police car?  I am thinking Joran said it to the K2's.  But I could be wrong.  What I can't figure out, is whoever "they" are that control the boys, wouldn't they be thinking that these boys are a liability now?  I mean, because of these boys, Aruba's tourism has tanked and the boycott is growing since the wine throwing incident.  I don't understand why they aren't blaming these boys and Paulus.  But then, nothing the powers that be do in Aruba makes much sense.

You got that right!  I wonder who "they" are myself.  Whoever it is places a lot of fear in them.  They are truly afraid of death themselves.  It is most unfortunate what happened to Natalee, but just think of how many people she has saved from being victimized of varying degrees. 

Myself, I had absolutely no idea how corrupt it could be, and in fact is in places one wouldn't expect.  Bottom line - she's a hero.

That's interesting BB..Must be slow for him so he is renting out suites on ebay..LOL!
His name is Arias Schwartz..It still makes no sense to me why they searched this house and not Lorenzo's house in Jaraweg(Savaneta) after Natalee went missing.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/ClubAriasEbay1.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/ClubAriasEbay2.jpg)

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

when i read where someone was reading up on drugs and booze on the internet
at the sloot house of horrors within hours of Natalee being murdered

that was the end for anyone with any ounce of intelligence to think that the sloots
are not heavily involved in this MURDER

Well, you know what they say.....it takes one to know one, Mizz Scahlet!

Another pic of Judge Smid leaving the courthouse before the release of K2

(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3425/smidde0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Well, was hoping to learn more about Juliia Renfro as kidnapper, but must get my beauty sleep.  Welcome to all new monkeys, and see you all tomorrow.  Sweet banana dreams, all.

Good night all!

I know y'all don't know me yet, but I know you!  See you after church!

Good Nite HB! ::MonkeyWink::

Good Nite Miss Scarlet! Sweet Dreams!

Hotping..Here are a few pics of Lorenzo's house.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/LorenzoshouseII.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/Picture3.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/lorenzobust.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/lorenzo3.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jaraweg2fx1.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lorenzoarrested062007ne0.jpg

Nite Helen and Scarlett

The 4th one is the one I was thinking of.....its not exactly the same pic but that's it...less the police officers. Thank You *******! ::MonkeyHaHa::

Edited to add another pic :)