Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Dear Di,

I would like to start a thread about the Anti-Christ. I've heard about it but I thought the Anti-Christ was the devil. Is it similar to a false prophet?

I want to thank the Monkeys for educating me about Christianity and that Christians value Israel.

So I'm fascinated to learn more. Wow. A person will rise at the end of time to run our world for seven years preceding the second coming, and the person will be charismatic and well loved.

I don't know about you, but I feel the end times are near. Are we speculating that Obama is the Anti-Christ?

Love, Mama

Hi Mama LV!

Sorry for long delay in responding.  I have been busy and only lurking.  As I said, I brought a comment over of somebody 'speculating', as people have done for decades.  I would love to discuss this further, but since the discussion of politics can be heated enough,  I won't add religion into the mix here on the forum anymore.  We will discuss via email, if you truly want more info. on some common, yet some differences, in Christian beliefs of , the Rapture, Tribulations and the Anti-Christ etc. as it is a very controversial topic in itself.   We go mixing politics and religion here, it will only add to the confusion.   So I will be emailing you some info, that may interest you, if you are truly interested.

Love,

Di

No, I don't believe that Obama is the Anti-Christ. There are Scriptural events that have to happen yet BEFORE the Anti-Christ comes to power. The Anti-Christ is not likely to be an American, either. Who else in the world would support an American? They have such envy and loathing for us, how could they ever follow one of us?

Some have speculated that he will be of a "Jewish" lineage at some degree, because the Jewish people would not accept anyone else as their possible "Messiah", but that idea is somewhat outdated. The level of religious syncretism in the world today is such that even the more orthodox could be fooled in accepting ANYONE, of any nationality, as a messiah. The Scriptures do NOT expressly state of what nationality or ethnicity he will be.

The notion of the Anti-Christ as being European or Middle Eastern, and being, perhaps, of Jewish lineage on one side of the family, seems valid with what little descriptions we have of what he will do.

The Anti-Christ, however, will come across as a man who "pulls together" all races, creeds, and nationalities, so it makes sense that he will be of a hybrid and complicated lineage ("multi-cultural"). That aspect of Obama's life does strike me as being the type of man that the Anti-Christ WILL be.

Don't get me wrong... I want to see peace and harmony AMONG NATIONS (note the plural use) as much as anyone. I fear the "Internationalist" movement to eliminate all national boundaries and create a One World state, above anything else. World government is the Ultimate Evil. It is the End of Freedom and Liberty as we in America know it.

THAT movement is the seedbed of the Anti-Christ's fan base. They are who he will appeal to as the ultimate Answer to all their dreams. That's why I want to support the candidate who holds our national sovereignty in the highest regard, who wants America to be strong and not kowtow to the UN or to third world tinpot countries like Aruba. Any candidate willing to put "international law" or the dictates of the UN above American law and our Constitution, moves us one step closer to the Anti-Christ's reign of terror.

SB,  thanks for clarifying that.  I didn't mean to mislead LV,  I only brought over a comment and agree with everything you just stated.   

I do understand that LV, has learned recently how much Christians are pro-Israel all the way.   I just wanted to find the right words to explain what I was referring to, towards that comment.   You are right,  he/it is not going to come from America.  But hopefully you can help me educate LV more on Christian beliefs to her Jewish background.  I fear it will be a huge task in getting the true message across.  I had hoped Tamik, would step in, with all her enormous knowledge and links  of scripture at hand.

Dihannah, anyone can quote from a book.  You have a special gift of being a witness to that book.  The book contains guidelines, it is up to us to live them and you surely do.  You are perfect as an educator.

(Please don't misunderstand my message, I love the Bible, but if you only use it to stand on to make yourself appear bigger, it is not being used for the purpose intended).jmho

Hello Di, sb, and Bearly,

Thank you for all the information. Di, I'd love it if you could send info on the Rapture,  Tribulations and the Anti-Christ.

With love,
Louise

 ::cartwheel::

Mama LV,

Please check your email.

{hugs}

Ezekiel: 38-39 details the battle in the bible in the last days

Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first and that man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

(The Rapture happens first then the Anti Christ

then the chapter goes on to explain how He that restrains will be taken out of the way, then the lawless one will be revealed (lawless one being the Anti Christ)

That's the verse I was thinking of while reading these posts, Kermit! I've always found it interesting that before John was given the Revelation of "those things to come" in Revelation, he was "called up" with the voice of a trumpet. Many people feel that is also an indication that the Church will be removed before the tribulation period, especially coupled with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 :

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 4:1-2
After this, I looked, and lo, in heaven an open door! And the voice which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come hither, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne stood in heaven with one seated on the throne!

For Mother's Day ... Eldest son and wife gave me the book authored by Joel Rosenberg called "Dead Heat".  Unlike the relatively conservative church that hubby and I have attened for 20 years ... son and DIL's church is very charasmatic and ... the ministry is very much into the end times.

It is ironic ... this is the son who humbled his father and me in his late teens and early twenties and ... implied we were "religious fanatics".

Anyways ... the book deals with how political events throughout the world "MAY" all be coming together to facilitate the "Rapture" of the Church.  Apparently the book involves a fictional story that incorporates all these events.

I have yet to begin reading this thick book but ... summer is almost here and ... hours spent on our boat while hubby is fishing will allow me to read it with few interruptions ... no computer.  LOL

Regarding the Anti-Christ.  I have been there; done that so many times over the years in my speculating.  I refuse to go there again.  I decided that I am right with God so therefore ... I will not be around to experience the Tribulation.  Why worry about the anti-Christ.  Hey ... maybe God will call me first.

 ::MonkeyCool::

Janet

LOL @ "religious fanatic" - they are everywhere!

What I remember (Bible verse retention < 1%), generally speaking, is that we are not to worry about when the exact end is coming.  Until the real end is here, it is nothing but rumor and speculation.  When the end arrives, it is fact. 

The label "religious fanatic" in my experience, may also encompass those that question the laws of man and how they may differ from moral and ethical values. 

WhiskeyGirl ... the definition of "religious fanatic" in our circle is someone that is "so heavenly bound; they are no earthly good".

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

I realize that "this world is not my home; I am only passing through" but each day of life that I am granted by God ... I will strive to do my small part to ensure that the freedoms that the forefathers of both our countries strived for are preserved for my grandchildren and their children ... for your grandchildren and their children.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

GOD BLESS CANADA!

Janet

 

i don't think this should have a place in politics.

if politicians believe in the rapture myth and actively work towards such an event it is very dangerous.
combine that with an iranian leader who says all sorts of crazy things and believes in the return of the mahdi.

religion has no place in politics whatsoever.
keep that to everyones private lives.

I agree caesu.

However ... the foundational principles and values that the  democracies of the United States and Canada were founded on form an ideology which I embrace.

In a local, provincial or national election in Canada ... I work with and cast my ballot for the candidate who most closely reflects those principles and values ... most closely reflects my ideology.

Others may not embrace my ideology ... therefore their votes will obviously be cast in favor of another candidate.

Once the ballots have been counted ... all citizens then rally around the winning candidate.  That is what the democratic system is all about.

However ... it is crucial that candidates who are running for positions within the democratic system are portraying an honest reflection of the ideologies they claim to represent.  It is crucial that the people are not being deceived.

Common sense dictates that words and actions of a candidate prior to campaigning must be scrutinize and ... the candidate should have no objection to that scrutiny.  The people must be assured prior to casting their ballots that a candidate is not a "wolf in sheep's clothing."  The people must be aware of the implications of the "changes" that their candidates is proposing.

Janet

Hi cbb ... I see ya lurking.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Hubby and I just got home from church and ... will be leaving shortly.  We will be spending this beautiful Sunday afternoon at daughter's home in the Eastern Fraser Valley ... a 45 minute drive.

I hope you are having a good day.

Janet
12:40 PM

Well, Tamik...............you and I could vote together because I also am guided by the principles you described. Actually, I've always looked at it this way: Political demands of any campaign can cause a candidate to "color" their remarks depending on which way the wind is blowing. After all, they are trying to get elected. The world challenges may look very different during their term and the questions we want answers to may not even be a question during the campaign. If we can get a sense of someone's values, general beliefs and philosophies, and yes, character, then I believe that's a valid criteria to consider when choosing a candidate. I know how my faith has shaped my values and ethics and therefore I do think a candidate's religion is germain in a voter's decision.

Any sense of "right and wrong" has an origin that is at least mirrored in the religions of the world. It's extreme, but if you contrast the concept of honor and value of the individual vs. the collective or the philosophy of all others as infidels that aren't of a particular religion, then the nature of the religion a candidate adheres to is monumentally important. It matters to me because it tells me more than I could possibly come to know over the course of a campaign.

crazybaby,

I agree. But isn't there another perception that the church will not be called up until after the Anti-Christ is revealed and then peace for 3 years and then the rapture?

I'm not sure in the bible where it states that though.

Separation of church and state.

However, if it is part of one's belief system, then it's like psychological behavior that one would base their opinions and/or choices upon. Thus, abortion, I'm sure comes from their religious beliefs perhaps cuz I don't know that male politicians base their opinions of choice on personal experiences, they can't so where else would they get their decisions to be yah or nay for abortion do you think?

   Isn't Murder against the law in this country!!! Or does the law just protect "Big People"  and not little babies!!!

Yes, Kermit, there is. The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible at all and everything about the timing is all conjecture. The verses above are often cited to support the opinion of a pre-tribulation rapture. My own opinion (and I would never argue the point, primarily because the Bible is not specific in the timing and therefore I'm not absolutely confident about it), is that it will occur before the 7 year tribulation, and maybe even mark the onset.

Let me say this: I think the topic of Rapture is interesting and I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone of a thing. There is nothing in the timing that contradicts anyone elses belief, and whatever God's plan is, I've never found anything in scripture that would impact His purpose by taking believers out either before or at the mid point. It's just interesting and I don't mean to stir up controversy or offend anyone. It's just my opinion, and contribution to a lively discussion.

Having said that, I will say that part of the reason I lean toward a pre-tribulation rapture is found in 2Thessalonians 2:7-8:

7.For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.  8.And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I believe the restrainer of "the spirit of lawlessness" is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit resides in believers. In order for the Holy Spirit to be taken out of the way as a restrainer, believers would have to be removed. It also makes sense to me that, anti-christ will be so "Christ-like" during the first 3 1/2 years that it will take the Holy Spirit's discernment to tell the difference. I'm not sure he could rise to such heights as to accomplish peace in the Middle East and rebuild the Jewish Temple to boot with studied believers watching. The first half of Tribulation will be a time of great peace and security, brought by antichrist.

Another thing that I find compelling is the seven feasts God directed Israel to observe in Leviticus 23 and 24. There is a remarkable foreshadowing in them. Briefly, here's the comparison:

1. The Feast of Passover (Blood covering the door causing death to "pass over") foreshadowing Christ’s crucifixion.

2. The seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread, symbolizing the partaking of our sinless savior's body, that is, receiving the bread of life.

3. The Feast of First Fruits celebrating Christ’s resurrection (which also includes us).

4. The Feast of Pentecost: To be celebrated 50 days after the Feast of First Fruits. The time period is identical to that from Christ’s resurrection to the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given. (Christ had appeared to His followers over a period of 40 days; and upon being ascended, He asked the disciples to wait (an additional 10 days as it turned out.)

5. The Feast of the Trumpets: This was the harvest-time feast held in the seventh month, when Israel looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and presents a picture of our being gathered to Him in the rapture.

6. The Day of Atonement pointing to the tribulation, the day of Jacob's trouble when after so much suffering they shall recognize Him whom they have pierced.

7. The Feast of the Tabernacles corresponding to the millennium when Israel would celebrate the Messiah.

The first four feasts have been fulfilled. The next is the feast of trumpets. The "calling up" of believers is associated with the sound of trumpets.

Anyway, like I said, it's an interesting topic and I can enjoy discussing it, but the timing isn't one of those things that I'd defend. There are those who believe that rapture will happen at the point that antichrist is suddenly rejected by the Jews for defiling the temple:

(Matthew 24:15).
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"

Daniel 9:27:
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Daniel 11:31
31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
 
Certainly the Bible teaches that Salvation will be "of the Jews" in those days. This event occurs at the the midpoint of the 7 years, and I am certain that rapture occurs then if not before. Jews will be the ones that discern truth. The abomination in their temple by antichrist will be measured against their scripture. The Jews have the Knowledge of God and through their faith and heroism, there will be many tribulation Saints!
 

Sorry for the sermon! As I said, it's my opinion only and not meant to stir up controversy or discontent.

Doctors and others who work in the NICU would have the experience of seeing how hard that tiny human fights to stay alive.  They could witness this first hand.

Rapture?  What exactly does that mean?  The end of life and civilization as we know it today? 

How many survivalist types exist today?  I think they exist world wide.  Planning to survive the biggest ecological or human made war ever.  Dig little holes in the ground and stock up.  Open the door and what is left to live for?

Do humans (as a group) actively work to maintain the earth and her people in good shape?  Keep the planet on course for a sustainable future?  Or, do they think only of themselves?  Make laws to allow all kinds of devastation?

The end time theories exist without God or any religion.  jmho

If everyone stopped pointing the finger at others, and started with themselves, the world would be a better place.  imho

WhiskyGirl ... YES and YES!

Christians have been striving to reconcile the prophecies of the Bible ... especially Revelations ... with the usering in of the Anti-Christ and the return of Christ for his Church  in relation to current world events since Biblical times.  This wannabe detective ... has got caught up with speculation also.  I have chosen not to go there any more.

Scripture is very clear that these two happenings are a given but ... it is also very clear that the timing of these two events ... only GOD who is author of EVERYTHING is privy to this knowledge.

The Scriptures imply that when Christ returns for his Church ... it will be sudden and ... His people will be going about their normal everyday tasks.

The end times may be now but ... they many not.  Therefore it is the responsibility of those who call upon the name of Christ to be prepared for his Coming but ... in the meantimes ... adhere and uphold God's commandments ... principle and values ... every day.

Whiskeygirl ... I am prepared if Christ should return today or ... I am called but ... I live a life that is fully aware the my grandchildren's children's children are the inheritants of this earth which God Himself made in the six days of creation.

Janet

+++++++++++++

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-2
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ...


Matthew 24

35.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37.  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42.  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.  

Well said and referenced, Tamik!

Great question, WhiskeyGirl!

 ::MonkeyWink::

Hi cbb

I do believe that some Monkeys who read this thread will be look at their calendar ... thinking it must be Sunday.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

It is not a holiday in Canada today ... work/school as usual for everybody in my family ... everybody but me.  Even "retired" hubby was called into work.

I do believe begin my Spring cleaning ... maybe doing a "clean sweep" as grown kids have suggested.  They have selfish motives ... they they do want to have to do it when their Dad and I are pushing up daisies.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Have a good day.

Janet

Reminds me of this by Josh Turner "Long Black Train" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gybGXnciig

Bearlyhere ... I agree that a visit to the NICU at the local hospital to observe what many disregard ... while still in the womb ... as "products of conception" is a valued education for those are not informed.  It does not take a degree in theology or medicine to arrive at a conclusion when life begins.
 
A woman/girl who finds herself in a desperate situation because of an unplanned pregnancy must be embraced with love ... must be  provide with alternatives ... alternatives which do not end the life of her precious baby.  Out of desperation ... she must be encouraged from making a decision she may immediately regret or ... in time when looking back.

In my past volunteer work with young mothers who made the decision to follow through with their pregnancies ... not one mom  ever indicated that she regretted that she had not kept to her original plan to have an abortion.

Janet

+++++++++

Obama's Abortion Extremism
Wednesday, April 2, 2008

Obama has not made abortion rights the shouted refrain of his campaign, as other Democrats have done. He seems to realize that pro-choice enthusiasm is inconsistent with a reputation for post-partisanship.

But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html


TRANSCRIPT: OBAMA ON ‘FNS’
by FOXNews.com
Sunday, April 27, 2008

On partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/27/transcript-obama-on-fns/

I fail to make the connection but ... on its own ... I appreciated the message that John Turner was attempting to convey his listeners.

Thank you WhiskeyGirl

Janet

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: Maybe your church, Tamik! Mine never ever approaches the topic. Many years ago, after I had begun really studying the Bible both in and out of college, I was astounded at the Old and New Testament prophecies around "The Day Of The Lord". I went to my Sunday School teacher, who was the wife of the Pastor and a really fine teacher, and asked if she would consider doing a series of such prophecies. She declined, saying that it would serve no purpose other than to divide and confuse people. She pointed out that those prophecies had no bearing on Salvation and if she could facilitate that for others, she would be quite happy.  ::MonkeyWink::

cbb ... very much like your church ... the two churches that hubby I have attended over our almost 43 year marriage are very conservative regarding the issue encompassing the end times ... the ushering in of the Anti-Christ.  Messages from the pulpit and Bible Studies have revolved around the question of whether the church will be raptured before, during or ... following the tribulation.  However ... no particular view is promoted.

Like you ... most of the indepth research on this topic has been conducted completely on my own.

It is ironic ... considering their background ... that all three of my grown kids and their spouses are into the end time prophecies.  My eldest son and wife are REALLY into it.  There is NOTHING they do not know about worldwide politics.  I tend to think that the ministry at their church is so obsessed with the topic ... that other areas are neglected.  However ... I am not complaining ... this is the son who humbled us in his late teens and early twenties.  Ten years ago he rededicated his life to God.  D. is a hard worker ... he loves his wife ... he is a great father and ... hubby and I have very close relationship with him.

Hey ... maybe after I have read the book Dead Heat by Joel Rosenberg which I received for Mother's day ... I may be inspired to again take up an real interest.  I am planning on reading it while on our boat during the summer.

Right now ... the focus of my time in regards to a personal interest is the Natalee Holloway case.

Janet

I actually understand what you explained. It makes sense. I thought it meant that when the anti-christ was here and he was holding it back. It makes more sense the way you explained it.

What never made sense to me was, if we are raptured, then why should we worry about the horrible things said to happen in Revelations since we won't be here.

And that is the debate when it comes to abortion - when is it considered murder


 

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=en&q=obama+anti-christ&btnG=Google+zoeken&meta=
there are over a million results on google search.

if people really think this, it is not a very good anti-christ this one ::MonkeyHaHa::
because i thought the myth is that the anti-christ would rise without anyone noticing it.

for every world leader there is at least someone who thinks that it is the anti-christ.
even of the pope some think it.  ::MonkeyCool::

I do believe that a visit to the NICU at the local hospital to observe what many disregard ... while still in the womb ... as "products of conception" would be a valued education for those are not informed.  It does not take a degree in theology or medicine to arrive at a conclusion when life begins.
 
Janet

+++++++++

Obama's Abortion Extremism
Wednesday, April 2, 2008

Obama has not made abortion rights the shouted refrain of his campaign, as other Democrats have done. He seems to realize that pro-choice enthusiasm is inconsistent with a reputation for post-partisanship.

But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html

LOL I remember some people thought Bill Clinton was the anti-christ.

59.  Steve Holloway on May 31st, 2008 6:09 pm
 
Thanks you for the letter and the show of support. God bless everyone of you. God has a plan for each one of us and wants us to listen to Him for what it is. He loves us greatly, more than we can understand. Jesus the Son of God shown so much love for us that He died in our place. Sin brings death and eternal separation from God. Now!! we can be heard in the throne room of Heaven with our prayers. (Lord God bring a close to this soon)

Have I sinned concerning what they did to Natalee…You bet. I have to ask forgiveness for sins and at the same time and just as hard, to forgive the one’s that made this happen. Its all in GOD’s hands and He will bring justice in His timing.

Christ’s return is not far away….(I don’t know when) but the signs are becoming clearer. We are told to watch for His comming. When He comes, Natalee will be with Him and the other saints in His Glory. The dead in Christ will rise first and we that are living will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord. Yes this is from the bible. We will have a big (get together) in Heaven. Who doesn’t like a banquet with the people you love!

If this life is all we have…then we are doomed. Why live it? I will tell you why..to give glory to God, to do His (will) while on earth. TO help each other, just as all of you HAVE by supporting our family in this terrible time of our life. The devil gave us a black eye, but we have hope…WE WILL live life the way GOD would have us to live. To love people when we don’t want too. To give of our self’s and forgive each other.

Just one more thing and I will stop preaching. Pick up a bible and read in the new testament the book of John. Its all about God and who He is. Just do that for me. If it changed your mind…let me know, because I don’t want anyone that has shown so much love to our family to perish. Thank you for listening with all of my heart. Steve Holloway

msn hotmail……lookingfornatalee@hotmail.com

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/05/30/dear-friends-in-aruba-natalee-holloway-missing-3-years/#comments

Kermit Wrote:
I actually understand what you explained. It makes sense. I thought it meant that when the anti-christ was here and he was holding it back. It makes more sense the way you explained it.

What never made sense to me was, if we are raptured, then why should we worry about the horrible things said to happen in Revelations since we won't be here.

*********************************************************

I don't think we are to worry about it, and it's part of the reason that I find it "interesting discussion" but that's it. On the other hand, a study of creation, or the Exodus, the flood, etc. has been important for me in my growth of understanding the nature of God as it applies to my personal walk of Faith. There is value in knowledge of prophecy for that reason, but there are lots of folks who focus in on "Tribulation" for their own purposes. My Sunday School teacher was right on that score: having no knowledge at all about that period of time has no impact on our decisions today concerning our own Salvation. As a matter of fact, Revelation is the only book in the Bible that specifically states it is written "for believers".

Revelation 1:1:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

That would indicate, to me, that Revelation is not a starting point for anyone who is beginning to search for meaning or who has not already come to belief in Jesus. Revelation depicts a time of accelerated "Supernatural" activity, both good and evil, as God's plan to restore His original intent for man to the state it was in Eden, culminates. It's a time forcing choice. Before sin, God and man had such a close, loving relationship that they walked together and easily shared each others company. After sin, (and the tree was there so man could choose. There is no love without choice) death became a reality and immediately you see sin at work in the shame of nakedness, fear, and blaming of Eve by Adam.  God put His plan in place right then. God covered their nakedness with animal skin (the first death) and blood for atonement of, or covering of, sin came into the world. God would offer His own Son to be born and as a man, He lived a sinless life (unblemished) and as Sin came into the world through the man of Adam, so would the blood of Christ take it away for anyone who chooses to accept God's grace offered through Him.  He maintained choice in that plan, but provided a way. Tribulation is a step toward completion of that reconciliation of man to God and the circumstances of that time will compel those who are here to choose or reject Him. Actually, according to scripture, the 7 years referred to as "tribulation" is not the end of the world. There will be those who, in their own natural lifetime, will live through the 7 years and see the 2nd coming. They will live their life out, marry, and have children after Christ has returned and they too, will be tempted by evil (choice is central to the nature of a loving and just God). "Armageddon" will occur as the pre-finale to this world a thousand years after tribulation, and it will be replaced by a new world.

Genesis 3:8

 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."



Genesis 3:21
 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

Mat 18:11 
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.


The Bible is a book with the answers in the back!  ::MonkeyWink::

I believe in God's plan, as taught from Genesis through Revelation, but again, the timing of rapture is conjecture. If I find myself in those times, I'll be right here discussing it with all of you!  ::MonkeyWink::

Kermit ... until the the answer to your question can be conclusively determined ... I firmly believe that we have to err on the side of life.

As for me ... God says it; I believe it and ... that settles it.

Janet

+++++++

Psalm 139:14-16 (King James Version)

14. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Kermit ... I believe that the church will be raptured prior to the tribulation but following the short period of calm under the rule of the anti-Christ.  However ... there are other viewpoints that have valid backup.  One being the the church will go through the Tribulation which implies that a strong foundation of faith will be required so not to weaken and ... aligned oneself with the anti-Christ.  Nevertheless ... it will do not good to worry ... just put on the strong armour of faith.

Ok, now you've peaked my interest in this book Janet.  I too am fascinated by the 'End of Times' revelations. I have read the entire Left Behind Series by pastors Tim F. LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.  Though they are obviously fiction, as it hasen't happened yet, but can give people a view of possibilities as they use many biblical references in it.  So I am going right now and ordering Dead Heat on Amazon.  I agree there is debate on tribulation timing and when it will occur, but the Left Behind series is an excellent read, even for those who may not believe in it.  It is action packed to keep readers attentions and I couldn't put them down! But again they reference the bible.  And in my mind, if it has a heartfelt impact just one non-christian to turn to the Lord, then it's worth it.

I am also a member at a forum, formally called Tribulation Forces, renamed The Bearean Watch, where daily commentary is posted of current events and there references to the Bible.  They also minister about salvation and the word of God.  They  are conservative and have many Bible references and teachings, that I find a great resource outside of the Bible, which is of course the ultimate resource.   But it's nice to just talk and fellowship from others across the world, aside from attending church.

I recommend the books and this website for those interested, especially LV.   I have some other forums that have members from all faiths, including Jews, which is interesting.   It can be more of a debate on different religion, rather than a resource.  But it is interesting and enlightening.

http://www.bereanwatchmen.com


I do appreciate all your thoughts and imput here.   It DOES impact politics, regardless of separation of church and state!   I too vote for those who are closest to my values and beliefs.  I believe that is why our country is going down hill, because of abandoning what our forefathers built this nation on.  It's all about me, me, me now.  I believe our forefathers are turning in there graves.   Barack is a  partial birth abortion advocate, what does that say if he is elected, among many other things.  They kill babies, who could survive if given birth early!  They suck out there brains and dispose of there bodies!  What in Gods name has come of this country, without him in it.   That's why America was so blessed in previous years.  Those blessings are becoming farther and farther between.  America needs to wake up!

  It is an alarming fact that doctors cannot assist in the Euthanasia of convicted criminals because it is against the Hippocratic oath (how well named), yet they can perform not only abortions but "partial birth".  Does anyone here realize what that really is???  That is a living, moving baby, that would most likely survive outside the womb.

   Any doctor who can do that is a murderer, because that is what he is doing.  He is murdering a thumb sucking, smiling, crying baby. Not an embryo, a baby!!!

AMEN!  It's disgusting!  I don't think everybody does realize what it means.  I know I didn't at first until I did my own research.  I was totally appalled.   And Barack thinks it's ok?????  He even agreed that if his own daughters ever got pregnant at a young age, he would support an abortion by them, as he doesn't want them to have that "BURDEN"!  KILL HIS OWN GRANDBABIES, because it's an inconvienence?!   Has he heard of ADOPTION!!!!!  Our country is going down hill fast, the last thing we need is his "change", if it means such liberal and ungodly 'change'.  He may not be the anti-christ, but he will sure help put us in a fast track to disaster!

Anytime the question of when life begins is raised, Jeremiah 1:5 always comes to my mind:

 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
       before you were born I set you apart;

That perspective sort of settles it for me.

  I didn't research this topic, I could not bring myself to it.  My oldest daughter was telling me about a documentary she had recently seen, showing one.  I had to stop her.  I got it and as you said it's disgusting, worse, it's a doctor actually murdering a fully formed, viable fetus.....a little helpless baby.  Yet he will not or is not allowed by law, due to his Oath of Hippocrates, to inject a condemned murderer.   I believe that these late abortions are legal in most states, again most likely, more states pemit doctors to murder babies than allow Capital punishment.........Ahh, but that's the Liberals again, kill babies but not criminals,...... the proverbial "Bleeding Hearts", who in reality have no hearts at all!!!

Thanks cbb.

Together with the passage from the Psalms ... I cannot comprehend how Barack Obama reconciles his Christian beliefs with his position on partial-birth abortion.

Janet

++++++++
 
Psalm 139:14-16 (King James Version)

14. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

+++++++++++

Obama's Abortion Extremism
Wednesday, April 2, 2008

Obama has not made abortion rights the shouted refrain of his campaign, as other Democrats have done. He seems to realize that pro-choice enthusiasm is inconsistent with a reputation for post-partisanship.

But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html

I have not yet read my book DEAD HEAT but ... I do believe it reflects the LEFT BEHIND series.  DEAD HEAT is a fiction story portraying the Biblical interpretation by Joel Rosenberg of the events encompassing the end times.

Di ... great post.

I say what I want conveyed but ... I find it difficult show emotions in my posts but ... believe me ... I am emotional.  Sometimes ... I walk away from my computer in tears in regards to diversions on the forum concerning topics that are close to my heart.

Janet

Okay I understand where you are going. Agreed, understanding scriptures and the last days we are in will bring some people some peace. It is that old saying, "knowledge is power". Understanding scriptures will also give one the knowledge of what is taking place and therefore the issues that are being brought up out of fear is really unnecessary because G_d is in charge. It IS going to happen and no amount of pity parties or thrashing each other is going to change what the plan of G_d is. Faith comes in all sorts of ways and sometimes people are given Faith. Everyday you drive the freeway you have faith that a car is going to pass you and not hit you. So, in some regards faith is nebulous. There is so much, much more in spiritual growth and sometimes it is reached through a person's own personal relationship with G_d.

The Rapture and Anti-Christ is nothing to fear, unless you are left behind.

And that is the issue. Man vs G_d.

Wow, Kermit! I'm not sure I've ever read such an on target summary! All I can say is................Yeah, what Kermit said!  ::MonkeyWink::

Kermit ... I believe that that Scripture reveals that after a 7 1/2 year honeymoon period with the anti-Christ ... Christ's Church will be raptured.  This honeymoom period will be a time when it will appear that that the anti-Christ is bringing about worldwide peace ... especially peace in the middle east.  However ... the anti-Christ is working behind the scenes with Israel's enemies ... preparing to destory God's chosen people.  It will be at that point when when all "H---" is about to break loose (Armageddon) ... that Christ will come for His own.

There is another viewpoint ... a viewpoint that implies that that the Church will go through the Tribulation and ... will be taken 7 1/2 years later ... at the end of the Tribulation.  During this period life will be a "H--- on Earth" for the Christian.  The Scripture instruct Christians not to accept the mark of the Beast (666) ...  but buying and selling will not be possible without it.  The present cashless society is setting the stage.  This viewpoint implies that the purpose of Christians going through the tribution will be to further the kingdom of God by sharing the Gospel.  Then at the end of this 7 1/2 year period ... Christ will take return for His church and ... allow the principalities of darkness (Christ is the light of the world) to destroy themselves.

As I said ... I adhere to the viewpoint that Christ will rapture His church prior to the 15 years Tribulation period but ... the other viewpoint is also support very effectively by others.  Therefore ... it is important that Christians are prepared with the full armour of God ... a strong realationship with God ... to withstand the hardships of this period.

When I read Karl Marx's writings/ideology ... I speculate that the anti-Christ will be a Marxist dictator.  In other words ... the state/government is the God of the people.

Janet

++++++++

Matthew 24
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

Ephesians 6:13
Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.

Kermit ... I disagree.

Obama and I both belong to the family of man (humans).  However ... we differ on this issue.

I am one with God.  In other words ... "If God says it; I believe it and ... that settles it".  I will conform and ... underlining implications/ feelings are not an issue.  If God says it ... faith demand that I believe He has it in His control.

Romans 8
28.  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

However ... when it comes to the issue of sanctity of the life in regards to the unborn child ... it is Obama who refuses to bow.

Janet

+++++++++


Jeremiah 1

5.  Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart ...

++++++++++++

Psalm 139

14. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

+++++++++++

Obama's Abortion Extremism
Wednesday, April 2, 2008

Obama has not made abortion rights the shouted refrain of his campaign, as other Democrats have done. He seems to realize that pro-choice enthusiasm is inconsistent with a reputation for post-partisanship.

But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html

Kermit

About 24 1/2 years ago ... I found out my youngest was on the way.  Was I overjoyed?  No way!  My two other children were well into their teens (14/17) and ... hubby and I were anticipating the freedom from the responsibility of raising kids in about four years.

There was an alternative available ... a choice as to whether or not follow through with this unplanned pregnancy.  However ... I chose not to follow my feelings and ... planted my feet on the firm foundation of God's word.  Hey ... this does not imply that I was happy with the prospect of starting all over again ... I was not.  This child would be entering Kindergarten the September following the high school graduation of my then 14 year old son.  He would raised as an only child.

However ... a miracle happened.  In an ultersound at 16 weeks gestation ... I saw my baby ... little arms waving and legs kicking to the beat of an unheard band.  I saw his huge head.  LOL  I was assured it was normal.

Kermit ... this son is now twenty-five years old ... a public school teacher ... married to the love of his life.  His father and I enjoyed every stage of his life.  We had learned from raising of the other two ... what issues were important and what issues were not.  In other words ... we picked our battles with this guy through our learned experiences.

I had anticipated that this after-thought ... hey, he was not even a thought ... would upset "my" plan for "my" life but ... God had "another" plan for my life and ... His plan was perfect.

Just thought I would share.

Janet

ribbit

Oh, boy! I feel a lively discussion on the horizon!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Tamik? I'm just curious. Whatcha' basing a 15 year tribulation on? That's not a calculation I've ever run into. I've always interpreted Daniel as depicting a 7 year tribulation with 3 1/2 years as the midpoint.

Disclaimer: I'm just picking Tamik's brain, not arguing!  ::MonkeyWink::

cbb ... I believe that you are right.  I will retrieve some of my end time books and ... have a boo.

Anyways ... I believe that in the beginning ... the anti-Christ's rule will be a honeymoon period where it will appear that he will have the ability to negotiate peace with Israel's enemies but ... behind the scenes the stage is being set up ... for the war of all wars against Israel.

I believe that Christ will return at this point for his Church.  The King of all Kings will not allow the Jews who recognize him as their  Messiah ... His chosen people ... to be annihilated.

I believe that the Rapture will mark the beginning of the tribulation ... the anti-Christ will be reveal for who he really is and ... world-wide Marxist/Islamic dictatorship will be established.

My eldest son and DIL disagree.  I am sure they have a Bible study on this topic at least once a week. LOL  They both adhere to the viewpoint that the Church will go through the Tribulation as a testimony to provide non-believers an opportunity to bow.  They are of the opinion that many believers who are of the persuation that the Church will not go through the Tribulation are going to submit to the anti-Christ as ... they will be unprepared for the hardship that everyday living will entail as illegal citizens ... no way of support their families ... no way of receiving government assistant ... medical attention ...

I told son and DIL not to worry ... if God did not take me first ... I would be with them whenever the Rapture occurred.  LOL

Janet

Yes I understand the debate and your viewpoint and the arguments for both sides are understandable. Years ago I remember reading this book about the whole tribulation & end times which is revealed in Revelations and Daniel scriptures, can't recall the title of the book, but it was by Hal Lindsay. Tribulation is scary stuff, BUT at the end of the book he says "we won't be here so don't worry."

My personal belief and relationship with G_d gives me a dependency upon Him and not man. So am I worried about when & where? Nope. That is why it is important to build upon as Abraham, Issac and Jacob did - have a relationship with the father. He will lead you in all things. He will reveal all things. So therefore having a foundation in Him is more important then say trying to get faith. The scriptures about having or rather putting on the armor of G_d is used when one knows they need to use it, before battle and never go into battle unless G_d tells you too - remember the story of David. He was suppose to go into battle and he didn't.  If one choses to take on the enemy and G_d has not directed a person to do so, then the protection is not there. That is why the gift of discernment is important. And one does that by having a relationship with the father. I never go up against the enemy unless I am directed to do so.
Hope that makes sense. Heck whattda I know, I'm only a froggy.

I have only heard the same 7 year tribulation
and after 3 1/2 yrs of peace then the rapture (is one viewpoint)

And this is why I think truth is important because here we have 2 different responses to this issue from Obama.

The one you provided above, which is Moynihan giving the information and this one which is Obama speaking because it is very easy to spin & twist the truth. I'm not in any way suggesting you did that. I am suggesting we be cautious to make sure we understand exactly what the truth is. So we can make informed choices. Well, at least that is what I am going to do. I feel everyone has the freedom to do as they choose.

OBAMA:  "On an issue like partial-birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother, and many of the bills that came before me didn't have that."
http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2008/04/barack-obama-de.html



But what I think the real issue is, should a woman be allowed to make her own choice.

As you stated in your situation you made your choice. I think what the issue has been for many years is when it comes to abortion is that women want to have the right to make their own choice.

I'm saying Man vs G_d is the issue.
Should man/woman decide or should they listen to G_d's ways?

Perfect sense.

Thanks Kermit.

Janet

"Anyways ... I believe that in the beginning ... the anti-Christ's rule will be a honeymoon period where it will appear that he will have the ability to negotiate peace with Israel's enemies but ... behind the scenes the stage is being set up ... for the war of all wars against Israel."

Yeah, I think this is true and that is why I feel/think whatever word one wants to place upon it that America becomes isolated for some reason - either we can't help Israel, or we have some catastrophic reason to not help - something stops us from protecting Israel, so that China and Russia come against Israel and G_d protects Israel.

Did you know China and Russia have made a deal for oil pipelines.

Kermit

You have to read DEAD HEAT by Joel Rosenberg.  My eldest son and DIL each purchased one and ... thought the author was right on in regards to end time political events.  Di has order a copy.  Maybe cbb would pick up one and ... then we could set up a special thread just to dialogue Rosenberg's perspective.  I have not begun reading this book ... it does not look like light reading.  I was going to wait for summer when hubby and I were on the boat but ... I just may discipline myself to one chapter a night.

What do you think?

Janet

Kermit ... not something but ... someone.  The American people were deceived into electing a President who hates Israel and embraces a Marxist/Islamic ideology that adheres to that of the nations which believe that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map.

Janet

ok, let me do this "talking to enemies / appeasement game" for a second.
(http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=653217)
FYI, this Maliki the prime-minister of the USA-backed iraqi puppet-regime.
(http://warnewsradio.org/images/maliki_ahmadinejad_handshake.jpg)
here Malike meets Ahmadinejad

sometimes it is better to wait a second and talk first than to bomb eachtothers brains out.

if bush would have waited for the UN inspectors the finish their jobs searching for WMD in iraq.
he would have known there were no such weapons there.
and the war wasn't necessary.

would have saved the lives of 4400 coalition soldiers. and 435 private contractors.
and 1.000.000 dead iraqi's. yes over a million (mostly innocent iraqi's) are slaughtered now.


isn't war the last resort? wasn't he pro-life president?

try all options including diplomacy and only very far after that war might be the last resort.
so... let Obama talk to him. maybe a war can be prevented. maybe not.
but not trying won't prevent anything for sure.

FYI. Israël, a country with 1000 times more experience with terrorism than the USA is talking (indirectly) to Hamas, Hezbollah and Syria.
why? because talks can work - they made peace with Jordan and Egypt for example after bloody wars.

and all this talk about marxism and what else.
see here republican president Nixon and Kissinger shake hands with Mao.
(http://img.timeinc.net/time/asia/magazine/2006/1211/nixon_mao.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/0/09/20070122040224!Kissinger_Mao.jpg)
Mao's Great Purge led to 20 up to 72 million deaths. what makes him possibly the biggest mass murder ever.
but Kissinger/Nixon decided to talk and start economic ties, still exist until today.

and F D Roosevelt met with Stalin of course, another mass murderer - murdered more than Hitler, not as much as Mao.
(http://schools.sd68.bc.ca/dove/teachers/rmckean/webquest/Ramona/a_c_roosevelt-stalin-yalta.jpg)

so it is ridicuous that Obama gets attacked for wanting to have chat with Ahmadinejad.
but it is easy to do it. but if thought through it isn't as stupid an idea at all.

caesu ... do you really think that a "chat" is going to change the resolve of Ahmadinejad?

However ... it could be that Obama's "chat" is not about changing Ahmadinejad determination to wipe Israel off the map or ... destroy the greatest democracy on the face of the earth.

Janet

+++++++++

Ahmadinejad Calls U.S. 'Satanic,' Israel 'About to Die'
Monday, June 02, 2008

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad predicted that Muslims would uproot “satanic powers” and reaffirmed his prediction that the Jewish state will soon be wiped off the map, the Agence France-Presse news agency reported Monday.

"I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene," Ahmadinejad said.

"Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started," the hard-line president said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361705,00.html

i am only saying: try diplomacy first.
and war as a last resort.

that's an american tradition by the way.
the american president (democratic and republican) used to have a hotline with the soviet president.
to prevent war.

leaders can say all kinds of crazy stuff to play to their own crowds.
remember mccain singing: "bomb, bomb, iran".
or hillary talking about "obliterating iran".

i think diplomacy should be given a chance in the first place.

israel is doing that too. talking to syria, hezbollah, hamas (not always direct talks)
(http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eEz8zh4Ww2Kt/610x.jpg)
here sadat, egyptian president, gives a speech in the israeli knesset (1977).

only 4 years previous was the yom kippoer war (1973)
egypt and syria tried to overrun israel. fot the first days they were succesfull.

mccain knows all of this too.
so it is a bit low of him to attack obama for wanting diplomacy first.

Whoa nellie. No one has wiped Israel off the face of the earth and scripture clearly states that G_d will allow this war against Israel to happen and then he is going to show them He is G_d.

(http://tapes.millercenter.virginia.edu/exhibits/khrushchev/images/Kennedy-Khrushchev.jpg)


The US Government has announced that it will release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme, which the US suspected was being misused.
 3 April, 2002,
President Bush's accusation that Pyongyang was part of an "axis of evil" producing weapons of mass destruction.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1908571.stm

At some point America's leaders need to return to diplomacy and not tyrannical name-calling.


"We must use the leverage available from the U.N. Security Council resolution passed after Pyongyang's 2006 nuclear test to ensure the full and complete declaration, disablement and irreversible dismantlement of its nuclear facilities, in a verifiable manner, which we agreed to with the other members of the six-party talks." McCain and Lieberman write.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/26/mccain_breaks_with_bush_over_n.html

oops forgot the link to that last article.

ribbit

I am about to start Dead Heat so if there is a discussion about be sure and email me....

I have been following this thread with great interest!! 

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Kermit ... please read what I said above.

I am just saying that the United States will no longer be an ally of Israel if she is under a Marxist dictatorship.  That is the reason I believe that Scripture is silent regarding America.

Janet

  ::cartwheel::

Scripture is not silent regarding America...the message is contained within "The Book of Mormon" - available in many languages, over the internet, through the mail, and from friendly missionaries that travel in pairs on bicycles.

Transcript: Obama Democratic Nomination Victory Speech
by FOXNews.com
Tuesday, June 3, 2008
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/03/transcript-obama-democratic-nomination-victory-speech/


Transcript: Hillary Clinton Primary Night Speech
by FOXNews.com
Tuesday, June 3, 2008
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/03/transcript-hillary-clinton-primary-night-speech/


McCain Offers Obama Strong Medicine While Welcoming Him to General Election
by Associated Press
Tuesday, June 3, 2008
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/03/mccain-offers-obama-strong-medicine-while-welcoming-him-to-general-election/

Obama Clinches Democratic Presidential Nomination
by FOXNews.comTuesday, June 3, 2008

Barack Obama clinched the Democratic presidential nomination Tuesday, becoming the first African-American to run for the nation’s highest office as the standard bearer of a major political party.

<snipped>

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/03/ap-obama-clinches-democratic-nomination-with-superdelegates/

and F D Roosevelt met with Stalin of course, another mass murderer - murdered more than Hitler, not as much as Mao.
[img]http://schools.sd68.bc.ca/dove/teachers/rmckean/webquest/Ramona/a_c_roosevelt-stalin-yalta.jpg[/im

      Proving that the Democratic Party is anything but.  They have always leaned and "cow towed" to our enemies, cause that have no morals, guts or brains....FDR,  was as "pink" as you could get......I guess Coulter is not entirely correct when you read the title of her book, they've got other bigger, far reaching, far more deeply embedded problems than just not belonging to the Republican party. ::MonkeyWaa::

When I consider the anti-Israel of those who Barack Obama has associated with throughout the last twenty years ... I am very skeptical.  Believe me ... my pro-Israel stand implies that I would have chosen my associates more wisely.

I firmly believe that a person is know by the "company he keeps."
_____________


Prepared Remarks: Obama at AIPAC Policy Conference
by FOXNews.com
Wednesday, June 4, 2008

I have been proud to be a part of a strong, bi-partisan consensus that has stood by Israel in the face of all threats. That is a commitment that both John McCain and I share, because support for Israel in this country goes beyond party.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/04/prepared-remarks-obama-at-aipac-policy-conference/

++++++++++++

Matthew 24
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

Matthew 24
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

+++++++

Obama: ‘I’m a Pretty Darned Good Politician’
by FOXNews.com
Wednesday, April 16, 2008

... I’m a pretty darn good politician. And I can give a pretty good speech and I can connect and inspire the American people in ways that I think will become apparent.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/16/obama-im-a-pretty-darned-good-politician/

+++++++++

Transcript: Rev. Jeremiah Wright speech to National Press Club
April 28, 2008

REV. WRIGHT: … We both know that if Senator Obama did not say what he said, he would never get elected. Politicians say what they say and do what they do based on electability …

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-wrighttranscript-04282008,0,3593201.story?page=6

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/04/clinton-obama-will-be-good-friend-to-israel/


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/04/obama-addresses-rumors-head-on-at-pro-israel-conference/

good to see that AIPAC is not buying into these unfounded rumors!

Hi CAESU.   I find it curious you find American politics so interesting.   I've seen your tremendous interest and knowledge of Dutch politics, I'm just curious about your motivation in ours.  Is it the war?  Though, I don't agree with you,  I'm open to debate.   I am truly curious of your interest and steadfast support of Obama.  TIA

I am so glad to see an interest and the knowledge of the Bible being posted here.   It does boil down to politics as many have stated before, as it is what drives our morals and values.  I appreciate all the posts here and hope they continue.

Janet,  I still HAVEN'T recieved my book!  It's even being shipped in the same state as I live.   Patienly waiting.....  and I will give updates as I read, though I may be slow with my schedule, I will provide my observations and opinions.....

Did you all hear Obama deliver his speech to AIPAC? He is not my candidate, but I'm amazed at his oratory skills. He repeated a phrase 3 times in that speech that kept rattling around in my head. I knew it was in a scripture pertaining to "end times". I just now had a chance to look it up and thought I'd share it with you guys. The phrase was "peace and security", and actually, this is one of the passages that also contributes to my "lean" (not conviction) toward a pre-tribulation rapture:

1Th 5:1   But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you. 
1Th 5:2   For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 
1Th 5:3   When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 
1Th 5:4   But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 
1Th 5:5   For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 
1Th 5:6   So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 
1Th 5:7   For those who sleep sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 
1Th 5:8   But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 
1Th 5:9   For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 
1Th 5:10   who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him.

i think it is hugely important for america and the world that they choose a new leader who does a 180 degrees u-turn on bush policies.
the amount of damage he has done is huge.

israel for example is very much less secure due to bush policies.
the war Iraq was first about WMD, then it swiched to 'regime-change' then it switched to Al-Qaida (who wasn't in Iraq in the first place) - and now the USA is using its treasure and blood to keep a Shia Islamist puppet regime in power...
Iran has hugely hugely benefitted from all this. they are now the major superpower in the region.
Iran has more influence in Iraq than the Iraqi-puppet government itself.
Iran is threatening Israel directly and through Hamas/Hezbollah.
bush can be grateful that not more wars have erupted in that region due to his policies.

i don't believe in anti-christ theories but if i did i would put bush high on the list for possible candidates.
i've always had interest for american politics but i really started following it after the 2000 and 2004 elections.
i just couldn't believe the democrates couldn't put up a nominee to defeat bush.

and now after 8 years wrecking the country and the world, still there are some who worship him?
how is this possible?
i think but i am not entirely sure, that it is for a large part due to instilling fear in the hearts of the people.
of course 9/11 was terrible and the hunt for Bin Laden needs to be re-started.
but the GOP has been using 9/11 since for political means.
and now again the fear tactic is used, by suggesting Barack is anti-american, muslim and more such things.
fear is a very powerful tool.

i've got great respect for mccain. but he really has to DENOUNCE bush now.
but when he does, people will ask why didn't you do this earlier, and why were his votes 95% in favor of bush?

here in the netherlands the election is followed closely. most support obama i think.
but some do mccain as well. anything is better than bush.
but the netherlands was a staunch supporter of bush. participated in the wars in iraq and afghanistan.

and for obama. i know you might laugh now but i think he is a great uniter.
and that is what the country needs now. bush and the GOP divided the country.
for example by calling anti-war people unpatriotic. that is a disgrace. how dare they?
but obama needs more than 4 years to repair the damage that is done.
this is going to be a huge task. if there are no results fast, the GOP will give him a hard time, which is hypocritical.
he has his plans for the future. it is no just great speeches and all talk talk talk.
i hope he accepts those 10 town hall meeting mccain proposed.
i can't wait for the first debates.

the amount of participation in politics in america is really great. it is a great democracy that everybody has a voice and their opinion. how different they might be.
compared to the netherlands here with an election few really pay attention.
but here the system isn't working due to coalition governments. you never get where you vote for.
for example only 5% wanted this government. the two parties even said they didn't want to govern together.
but after the results they did anyway. and they had to mix all their stances and what came out was a cripled government.
always infighting and nothing gets done. result: all coalition parties took a nosedive in the polls.
so they don't dare to call new elections. lame duck government by default.

but things are changing. in two years time they have to call election says the constitution.
i think many will get involved, not as much as in the USA, but many will. it will be interesting then.

from the first day a found this forum i greatly admired the search for the truth in the disappearance of Natalee.
really good effort. all information is analyzed over and over again. very good work... i was really lost for words for a few days after seeing how much time and determination was used.

that's why i find it mingboggling why as to Barack Obama all of a sudden different standards are used.
all kinds of rumor are treated as if they were facts. and quotes from him are taken out of context or just simple false and taken for the truth. and all kinds of conclusions are taken from that. there seems to be frantic search for 3rd degree or higher associations of him. then quotes from them are also taken out of context or mixed up and derived from that Obama is called a racist and anti-American and more...???
i've find it fascinating what is behind that. what is the driving force behind that?
why resort too such cheap low and dirty methods? in back of their heads everyone knows that this is not fair i hope to believe...
why not just discuss his plans for the country?

I am curious why you did not address Janet with the same inquiry - she is not an American.
Or is it because she supports your candidate for the American Presidency? And caesu supports the opposing candidate?

Isn't that interesting that not one person, other then myself, was trying to discuss this.
And they take quotes out of context to support their own thinking which we saw develop greatly during the Clinton campaigns - it was tagged "Spin". Now it is festered into American Politics so much so that we have difficulty discerning between what is truth and what is made up. That does figure into end times scriptures, where our world becomes most-likely unable to discern between what to believe or who so that a powerful leader will rise and lead the world in a charismatic way. People who are unable to look at the same object from the other side of the room type of mentality is what we see being developed and acceptable. As this practice takes on the norm, few people will be able to tell the absolute truth from "spin-masters".

Thank you for finding that. Man, that IS very interesting.

.... but ... but ... Kermit, I am your next door neighbour.  Then my darling DIL is American.  That implies that my future grandkids will be 1/2 American.  I think that makes somewhat related ... doesn't it?

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Janet

I am not interested in discussing Obama's "change" for America.  The Marxist, anti-American, racist, anti-Israel "company" he has associated himself with throughout the past twenty years ... right up until this year ... tells me that there are underlying implications to the words Obama speaks in regards to "change".  In other words ... I believe that Obama is a "wolf in sheep's closthing" ... a deceiver.  I do not trust him.

I am a great believer that a person is known by the company he "chooses" to associated with."

I would not "choose" to associate with those who are anti-American, racist, anti-Israel or those who embrace a Marxist ideology.  I may come in contact with people ... who embrace an opposing ideology ... on an individual basis in my daily walk but ... my identification would reflect the people and organizations I "choose" to proudly identify myself with.

Janet
____________



Sermons We See
Edgar Guest
 
I’d rather see a sermon than hear one any day;
I’d rather one should walk with me than merely tell the way.
 
The eye’s a better pupil and more willing than the ear,
Fine counsel is confusing, but example’s always clear;
 
And the best of all the preachers are the men who live their creeds,
For to see good put in action is what everybody needs.
 
I soon can learn to do it if you’ll let me see it done;
I can watch your hands in action, but your tongue too fast may run.
 
And the lecture you deliver may be very wise and true,
But I’d rather get my lessons by observing what you do;
 
For I might misunderstand you and the high advise you give,
But there’s no misunderstanding how you act and how you live.
 
When I see a deed of kindness, I am eager to be kind.
When a weaker brother stumbles and a strong man stays behind
 
Just to see if he can help him, then the wish grows strong in me
To become as big and thoughtful as I know that friend to be.
 
And all travelers can witness that the best of guides today
Is not the one who tells them, but the one who shows the way.
 
One good man teaches many, men believe what they behold;
One deed of kindness noticed is worth forty that are told.
 
Who stands with men of honor learns to hold his honor dear,
For right living speaks a language which to every one is clear.
 
Though an able speaker charms me with his eloquence, I say,
I’d rather see a sermon than to hear one, any day.

++++++++

Transcript: Rev. Jeremiah Wright speech to National Press Club
April 28, 2008

REV. WRIGHT: … We both know that if Senator Obama did not say what he said, he would never get elected. Politicians say what they say and do what they do based on electability …

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-wrighttranscript-04282008,0,3593201.story?page=6

+++++++++++

Republicans prepare to take aim at Obama
Wednesday, January 9, 2008

But for former Republican House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who was known as "the Hammer" on Capitol Hill, said Republicans need to start deconstructing Mr. Obama now.

"Somebody from our side needs to start talking about Obama today. He's a Marxist but a very smart one — he doesn't let anyone know it," said Mr. DeLay.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jan/09/republicans-prepare-to-take-aim-at-obama/?page=1

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jan/09/republicans-prepare-to-take-aim-at-obama/?page=2

Hi cbb

Could you please edit my last post?  Please delete the first two quotes ... I duplicated them.

Thanks

Janet

Happy to, and done!  ::MonkeyWink::

cbb ... thank you.

I did not want to give those who rightly call me "roboposter" any more fuel for the fire.

  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Janet

CAESU,  I do respect you for your opinions, as you have provided alot of good info. on the Natalee case.  I also do understand the importance to other countries on our politics.  However, I will agree to disagree with you on Obama.

Please see my post here http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2718.340  and think about it.  I fear of his misleading people and those less educated on the topic or naive are going to vote for him.  Some of us have provided a plethora of reasons he shouldn't be president.  I want McCain, but would have taken Hillary over Obama.

Thanks for your honest opinion.

Very interesting. Thanks for you astute observation.   I posted this in another thread, but believe it belongs here just as well.

This was sent to me via email, no link attached.  But it is something to think about.  If true, very SCARY!  To me it's plausible, as after 9/11, anything is possible,  is it worth the risk?

 This has circulated before but needs to be repeated.


>> The Jihad Candidate
>> by Rich Carroll
>>
>>
>>
>> Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so
>> absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and  'Seven
>> Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the
>> reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid
>> grist of fiction.
>>
>> Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but  before you
>> continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the
>> Twin Towers in lower Manhattan and remind yourself this cowardly act of  Muslim
>> terror was planned for eight years.
>> How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President
>> of the United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from Illinois
>> and Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in
>> Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in America? The same
>> amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our Millitary and
>> prisons as 'chaplains'?
>> Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom
>> fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in
>> Kenya's history. Find a candidate w ith close ties to The Nation of Islam and
>> the violent Muslim overthrow in Africa, a candidate who is educated among > white
>> infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy
>> smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the  Muslim
>> name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under
>> the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of  anti-white
>> American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a
>> bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with  Muslim
>> middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough >> to get
>> away wi th his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion
>> taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in >> Africa.
>>
>>
>> Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning >> him on
>> any issue involving Africa or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; >> two words
>> too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your
>> candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan
>> followers as members of his Illinois Senatorial and campaign staffs.
>>
>>
>> Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned >> every
>> stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have >> placed
>> every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; >> the same
>> press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates >> off with
>> persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the >> 65
>> blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? >> Where are
>> the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in >> Africa?
>> Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? >> Why
>> haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists >> who have
>> surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church
>> re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close p >> astor
>> friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide >> of the
>> First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab
>> Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is  supported
>> by every Muslim organization in the world?
>>
>>
>> As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate  has ZERO
>> interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting  record
>> in U.S. Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up  on any
>> negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham
>> Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why,
>> suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream
>> media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why
>> isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on  'those bad
>> American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44  countries
>> around the globe? Why does our media refer to Darfur as 'ethnic cleansing'
>> instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough
>> strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the
>> curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!?
>>
>>
>> A formal plan for targeting America was devised three years after the Iranian
>> revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed
>> Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of
>> settlement' of Muslims in America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad
>> process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their
>> work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the
>> Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their
>> hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion
>> is made victorious over all other religions.'
>>
>> There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror
>> invading The United States in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it
>> is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record
>> numbers and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for
>> our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving
>> uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our
>> investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though
>> Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a
>> volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd.
>> Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian
>> Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White
>> House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the
>> same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides
>> into the United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to
>> dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are
>> expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this
>> candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim

not that it makes any difference.
but hamas clearly doesn't like obama as earlier suggested.


http://www.news24.com/News24/World/US_Elections_2008/0,,2-10-2339_2334905,00.html

QUOTE:

April 16, 2008
Hamas Endorses Obama

On Sunday, Aaron Klein and John Batchelor interviewed Ahmed Yousef, chief political adviser to the Prime Minister of Hamas, on WABC radio. The interview produced a scoop which, for some reason, has not been widely publicized: Hamas has endorsed Barack Obama for President. Yousef said, "We like Mr. Obama and we hope he will win the election." Why? "He has a vision to change America." Maybe Yousef has some insight into what Obama means by all these vague references to "change."

Of course, Hamas's taste in American presidents is suspect. Yousef also described Jimmy Carter, who was about to pay a call on Hamas when the interview was taped, as "this noble man" who "did an excellent job as President."

Yousef was asked about Obama's condemnation of Carter's visit with Hamas, but didn't seem troubled by it. Hamas, he says, understands American politics; this is the election season, and everyone wants to sound like a friend of Israel. Nevertheless, he hopes that the Democrats will change American policies when they take office.

You can listen to the entire interview by clicking the "play" button below:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/04/020315.php

******************************************************************

Obama's statement about an undivided Jerusalem on June 3, 2008 brought criticism to him from Hamas. The prior statement (above) was made from Hamas' leader on April 13, 2008 and was the basis for the statements that Hamas would like Obama to be elected President.

I thought this article might also contribute to the discussion of Obama and Hamas:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FROM WND'S JERUSALEM BUREAU
Ex-Obama adviser's pro-Hamas views 'well known'
Robert Malley quit after media reported his contacts with terror group--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 11, 2008
11:12 pm Eastern


By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily



Robert Malley (Photo: PBS)
 

JERUSALEM – An adviser to Sen. Barack Obama who quit after it was reported he held talks with Hamas was a well-known supporter of negotiations with Hamas and providing international assistance to the terrorist group.
 
Robert Malley, an employee of the International Crisis Group, said he served as an "informal" Middle East adviser to Obama. He told NBC News this past weekend he decided to step down after the Times of London inquired about whether he had contacts with Hamas.

"I decided based on the fact that this was becoming a distraction that it was best that I remove myself from any association with the campaign," Malley told NBC.

Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt issued a statement to the Times: "Malley has, like hundreds of other experts, provided informal advice to the campaign in the past. He has no formal role in the campaign and he will not play any role in the future."

Malley's pro-Hamas views, though, were no secret. 

WND reported in January Malley has penned numerous opinion articles, many of them co-written with a former adviser to the late Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, petitioning for dialogue with Hamas and blasting Israel for numerous policies he says harm the Palestinian cause.

In February 2006, after Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian parliament and amid a U.S. and Israeli attempt to isolate the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority, Malley wrote an op-ed for the Baltimore Sun advocating international aid to the terror group's newly formed government.

"The Islamists (Hamas) ran on a campaign of effective government and promised to improve Palestinians' lives; they cannot do that if the international community turns its back," wrote Malley in a piece entitled, "Making the Best of Hamas' Victory."

(Story continues below)




Malley contended the election of Hamas expressed Palestinian "anger at years of humiliation and loss of self-respect because of Israeli settlement expansion, Arafat's imprisonment, Israel's incursions, Western lecturing and, most recently and tellingly, the threat of an aid cut off in the event of an Islamist success."

Malley said the U.S. should not "discourage third-party unofficial contacts with [Hamas] in an attempt to moderate it."

In an op-ed in the Washington Post in January coauthored by Arafat adviser Hussein Agha, Malley – using could be perceived as anti-Israel language – urged Israel's negotiating partner Abbas to reunite with Hamas.

"A renewed national compact and the return of Hamas to the political fold would upset Israel's strategy of perpetuating Palestinian geographic and political division," wrote Malley.

He further petitioned Israel to hold talks with Hamas.

"An arrangement between Israel and Hamas could advance both sides' interests," he wrote.

In numerous other op-eds, Malley advocates a policy of engagement with Hamas.

Hamas is responsible for scores of deadly shootings, suicide bombings and rocket attacks aimed at Jewish civilian population centers. The past few weeks alone, Hamas militants took credit for firing more than 200 rockets into Israel.

Hamas' official charter calls for the murder of Jews and destruction of Israel.

Hamas maintained a national unity government with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas until the Palestinian leader dissolved the agreement and deposed the Hamas prime minister last year.

Hamas in recent days has become a campaign issue for Obama, who has repeatedly called Hamas a terror group that should be isolated.

Last week, Obama and Sen. John McCain traded barbs about a Hamas endorsement that came during an interview with WND and with WABC Radio.

Ahmed Yousuf, Hamas' top political adviser in the Gaza Strip, expressed "hope" Obama will win the presidential elections and he compared the Illinois senator to John F. Kennedy.

McCain mentioned Hamas' praise of Obama during several national interviews.

Obama claimed McCain's statements were a "smear."

Obama also came under fire after it was reported his Trinity United Church of Christ newsletter reprinted an opinion piece by a top Hamas official that defended terrorism as legitimate resistance, refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist and compared the terror group's official charter – which calls for the murder of Jews – to America's Declaration of Independence.

The Hamas piece was published on Rev. Jeremiah Wright's "Pastor's Page," which later printed an open letter by a pro-Palestinian activist that labeled Israel an "apartheid" regime and claimed the Jewish state worked on an "ethnic bomb" that kills "blacks and Arabs."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64023

that endorsement is now withdrawn after Obama's AIPAC speech.

Kermit,  Quite frankly I forgot she was in Canada, but is also lives directly by the U.S. border.  So please do not accuse me of failing to ask her, since we agree with the same views, that never even dawned on me, until just now, thank you.  But since you mentioned it, I'll respond by saying, I do believe our politics, do have a bigger impact on Canada, as our direct neighbor.  Correct me if I'm wrong Janet,  you have family/friends here, over the border, less than an hour away, who will be directly impacted?   

I only asked CAESU out of genuine curiosity.  I even said, I respect them for there knowledge in politics, and they didn't seem to be offended....

Yes, according to the more recent statements from Hamas, it would seem so. Coinciding with the Jerusalem statement from Obama and Hamas' reaction, there has also been no further assertion that Hamas endorses him from the GOP or anyone else that I know. It was true when it was true and accurately asserted by McCain, and changed when Hamas changed their mind.

My comments in RED


Funny thing is, I was a Democrat prior to Bush, and have changed my views since 9/11 and probably with age, as I've become much more conservative.   I don't like the lack of morals and values in this country and they only keep getting worse.  We are taking God out of everything, which is what our country was founded on and I do fear the real beliefs of Obama vs what he "says" and has displayed in the past.  They ALL say things to win, which is why I really don't trust any of them.  But I am grateful for our wonderful country and only hope and pray for the best for our future and that of the world.

I would like to add this to Dihannah's comments:

Obama's plan is to bring our troops home from Iraq, period. In the same breath, he says that Iran's nuclear race is a threat to the entire world ( America and Israel would be at the top of the list in that threat. ) Let's think about that a second.

Israel is the only ingrained democracy in the entire region and a strong ally of the US. It's a mutual relationship. If we do as Obama intends and evacuate a presence in Iraq, that statement remains unaltered. BUT, the strategic advantage of the US maintaining bases in Iraq over a long period of time, accomplishes exactly what McCain said that he has received so much criticism for: it gives us a foothold on the very border of a country that is openly aggressive to freedom loving nations everywhere, and it provides an environment that nourishes a young democracy toward stability. That's an incredibly important thing for BOTH Iraq and the US. That prospect, along with the virtual defeat of Al Qeada (both in physical terms and most importantly in the hearts of Iraqi citizens) has been an immeasurable assistance to keeping our homeland free from successful attack since 911.

Regardless of the rhetoric that is spewed forth from Osama Bin Laden, don't think for a moment that terrorists groups throughout the region miss the point that there is a price to pay for harboring terrorism, and that's a point that, unfortunately, is the only language that seems to translate despite the language barrier.

I'm mind-boggled at how this debate is perpetuated throughout the political campaigns without contrasting life in Iraq pre and post Saddam. There has been a war to effect the transition and there has been loss both to our troops and to citizens of Iraq. I am not minimizing that. The loss of life over years of his terroristic oppression under Saddam makes the war's losses look like a picnic, and the hope that has taken root there is evidenced by Iraq's eagerness for our troops to remain.

We have been in Japan since WWII. It's an assignment for our troops without danger, and our relationship with Japan is an example of mutually beneficial cooperation. It's an example of how we enjoy a geographical strategic presence in that part of world, and they enjoy the security of our military promise in the event of attack. Those principles are magnified and multiplied in importance in the hotspot known as the Middle East.

Lastly, and less tangibly, is the contagious nature of individual freedom and democracy itself. If we don't recognize that, I guarantee you that dictators and terrorists do! The "West's" ideology is the real threat to their power and they do not want it to be planted and spread in their own backyard! Look at how their women are treated, their citizenry is isolated, and their dissidents are squelched!  That same Western ideology is our most powerful weapon against all those who would harm us and innocents throughout the world.

At some point, we must ask ourselves the value of human life and measure our responses against what Iran, Hamas, Suicide Bombers, and Al Quieda would answer. It's not a simple answer and it comes with a price, which ever way we decide. Ultimately, the price is far higher if we answer that we'll just take care of us and barricade ourselves within our own borders and dig in to protect our own soil. This world has grown too small for that, and there isn't a wall big enough to secure us. The answer must have depth and vision beyond winning a political campaign. A sound bite declaring that we'll pull troops out 60 days after taking office is the most reckless, dangerous words that could be spoken, and in my opinion, prostitutes the office of the Presidency before it is ever gained. The price for ANY individual's political ambition should never be pre-purchased with endangering the very voters being solicited.

The thoughtfulness required does not fit easily into a sound bite, and I'm fearful that the cheering crowds that respond to a truly inspirational speaker are innocent sheep being led to slaughter. JMHO!

I don't see a lot of differentiation.  I'd like to see some aggressive movement on energy independence (20 years, little if any dependence of oil), healthcare (good basic care for everyone), and education (back to basics).  Make every dollar do the work of two or three dollars. 

What good does it do to rely on oil if very few can afford the oil based products?  If, as a nation, we are held hostage by oil producing countries? 

What good does it do to promise increased healthcare coverage, and education spending, if there is no money to pay for it? 

I see more of the same from many candidates. 

IMO - Clinton seems to be the only one who said (my paraphrase) it won't be easy - existing benefits need to be addressed.  Also, she identified that debt is a lasting legacy and one that should not be passed on to children and grandchildren.

Does it matter if how well educated our children are if there are no jobs?  Does it matter how elaborate their education is if they lack basic skills? 

I think the direction of the U.S. in many areas needs reshaping and pruning, but I do not see that from Obama or McCain. 

Some people do not like change.  They resist.  Change comes anyway.  It can come in the form of a gentle rain, or a tsunami.  Best be prepared.  jmho

"There is always someone who isn't going to like you." - get over it.

CBB, very well said and so true.  Much more eloquent than I can ever put down in words.

CAESU,  Very valid points.  Wouldn't it be nice if we COULD all concentrate on issues from within our own borders and our allies, such as the important issues you mention, without the need to deal with the hassle of terrorists and Anti-Democracy haters?  It isn't going to go away, no matter who's in office.  But it is important, who is in office and can deal with it with experience and lack of baggage they bring.   

I'm going to inject something else, I recieved in an email today.  I am not able to confirm the validity, but it is something to research more on and to think about.

Subject: Fwd: FW: Fw: John McCain's son
Lauren remembers when she first met Jimmy McCain at a Brophy football game, they were both freshmen!  She said he was a typical class clown, everyone really liked him and he never took things too seriously.  Now look at him and where this kid stands!  There may be a lot of bad press about John McCain, but this is one tight knit, close family that has been doing something right!!

(This is from my daughter-in-law's sister) Barb
 
 
Talk about putting your most valuable where your mouth is! Apparently this was not "newsworthy" enough for the media to comment about. Can either of the other presidential candidates truthfully come close to this? ... Just a question for each of us to seek an answer, and not a statement.
 
You see...character is what's shown when the public is not looking. There were no cameras or press invited to what you are about to read about, and the story comes from one person in New Hampshire.

One evening last July, Senator John McCain of Arizona arrived at the New Hampshire home of Erin Flanagan for sandwiches, chocolate-chip cookies and a heartfelt talk about Iraq. They had met at a presidential debate, when she asked the candidates what they would do to bring home American soldiers - -
soldiers like her brother, who had been killed in action a few months earlier.

Mr. McCain did not bring cameras or press. Instead, he brought his youngest son, James McCain, 19, then a private first class in the Marine Corps about to leave for Iraq. Father and son sat down to hear more about Ms. Flanagan's brother Michael Cleary, a 24-year-old Army First Lieutenant killed by an ambush ... a roadside bomb.

No one mentioned the obvious: In just days, Jimmy McCain could face similar perils. 'I can't imagine what it must have been like for them as they were coming to meet with a family that ......' Ms. Flanagan recalled, choking up. 'We lost a dear one,' she finished.

Mr. McCain, now the presumptive Republican nominee, has staked his candidacy on the promise that American troops can bring stability to Iraq. What he almost never says is that one of them is his own son, who spent seven months patrolling Anbar Province and learned of his father's New Hampshire victory in January while he was digging a stuck military vehicle out of the mud.

Two of Jimmy's three older brothers went into the military. Doug McCain, 48, was a Navy pilot. Jack McCain, 21, is to graduate from the Naval Academy next year, raising the chances that his father, if elected, could become the first president since Dwight D. Eisenhower with a son at war.

I chose to share this with those who I believe will pass it on, to others who will pass it on. We hear so much inflated trash out there. How about a simple act of kindness ... and dedication to others placed above oneself?

Has anybody heard if Barack Hussein Obama has served in The American Armed  Services?

This is for all you Barack voters.

From Barack's book, Audacity of Hope:

"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

HE DID NOT SAY STAND WITH AMERICANS!!!!!

I apoligize,  I responded in my above post to CAESU, rather than Whiskeygirl...... ::MonkeyWink::   Sorry....

i might respond in a longer post, also to your earlier posts.
thanks for your posts.

but you are copying here from smear e-mails.
these are incorrect quotes.
i wonder how many people are being misled by those smear e-mails and get the wrong idea of mccain.
wouldn't that be sad? that they afterwards realize that they casted the wrong vote based on those smear e-mails?

these 'swift boat' kind of smearing worked, so now it is tried again to smear obama...
i agree with some of your reservations towards obama. for example 20 years in the trinity church.
but please. try to double check, because so much smearing is going on.

some really believe obama got sworn in on the koran! and it gets posted all over the internet.
so again the smearing seems to have worked.

i admire the involvement of so many people supporting the candidates.
i wish here in the netherlands there was so much involvement.
but if the time is used to smear with false and out of context and playing on prejudices and fear.
it is just really sad... i think. and it divides, because people start to hate the opposite camp.
after all you are all americans, not democrats or republicans.

to say that obama is affiliated with terrorists, i am not saying you do.
but endorsements by hamas are brought up. which is false but the way.
but how low can one go...
then democracy and free speech is really abused if such things are shouted at eachother.


http://factcheck.barackobama.com/

Well..................................so much for the non-endorsement Hamas gave Obama for his "undivided Jerusalem" statement. Obama seems to have "changed his mind". Obama's Shifting Foreign Policy Shows That The Only Real Change He's Promising Is In His Own Positions  

Obama 4 Foreign Policy Flip Flops Fri Jun 6, 1:16 PM ET
 

WASHINGTON, June 6 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/


FLIP-FLOP #1: In His Remarks To The Annual AIPAC Policy Conference, Obama Said That Jerusalem Should Be The Undivided Capital Of Israel, But Later Said The City's Future Should Be Negotiated By Israel And The Palestinians:


On Wednesday, Obama Said Jerusalem Would Be The Undivided Capital Of Israel. Obama: "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At The Annual AIPAC Policy Conference, Arlington, VA, 6/4/08)


One Day Later, Obama Said The Future Of Jerusalem Would Have To Be Negotiated By Israel And The Palestinians. CNN's Candy Crowley: "I want to ask you about something you said in AIPAC yesterday. You said that Jerusalem must remain undivided. Do Palestinians have no claim to Jerusalem in the future?" Obama: "Well, obviously, it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues." (CNN's "The Situation Room," 6/5/08)


"Facing Criticism From Palestinians, Sen. Barack Obama Acknowledged Today That The Status Of Jerusalem Will Need To Be Negotiated In Future Peace Talks, Amending A Statement Earlier In The Week That Jerusalem 'Must Remain Undivided.'" (Glenn Kessler, "Obama Clarifies Remarks On Jerusalem," The Washington Post's "The Trail," Blog, www.washingtonpost.com, 6/5/08)


FLIP-FLOP #2: Obama Now Claims That He Will Only Meet With Foreign Leaders At A Time Of His Choosing If It Will Advance U.S. Interests, But Previously Said He Would Meet With Rogue Leaders His First Year In Office Without Preconditions:


In His Remarks To The AIPAC Conference, Obama Claimed That He Would Only Meet With The "Appropriate Iranian Leaders At A Time And Place" Of His Choosing. Obama: "Contrary to the claims of some, I have no interest in sitting down with our adversaries just for the sake of talking. But as President of the United States, I would be willing to lead tough and principled diplomacy with the appropriate Iranian leaders at a time and place of my choosing - if, and only if - it can advance the interests of the United States." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At The Annual AIPAC Policy Conference, Arlington, VA, 6/4/08)


But At A July 2007 Debate, Obama Said He Would Meet With Hostile Leaders During His First Year In Office. Question: "[W]ould you be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?"...Obama: "I would. And the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them - which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration - is ridiculous." (CNN/YouTube Democrat Presidential Candidate Debate, Charleston, SC, 7/23/07)


At A September 2007 Press Conference, Obama Confirmed That He Would Meet Specifically With Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Question: "Senator, you've said before that you'd meet with President Ahmadinejad ..." Obama: "Uh huh." Question: "Would you still meet with him today?" Obama: "Yeah, nothing's changed with respect to my belief that strong countries and strong presidents talk to their enemies and talk to their adversaries. I find many of President Ahmadinejad's statements odious and I've said that repeatedly. And I think that we have to recognize that there are a lot of rogue nations in the world that don't have American interests at heart. But what I also believe is that, as John F. Kennedy said, we should never negotiate out of fear but we should never fear to negotiate." (Sen. Barack Obama, Press Conference, New York, NY, 9/24/07)


FLIP-FLOP #3: Obama Has Pivoted In His Opposition To Legislation Labeling Iran's Revolutionary Guard A Terrorist Organization:


Obama Has Been Inconsistent In His Views On Labeling Iran's Revolutionary Guard A Terrorist Organization. "Obama's campaign suddenly discovered that their man -despite having spent the last nine months campaigning on his opposition to Kyl-Lieberman - 'has consistently urged that Iran's Revolutionary Guard be labeled what it is: a terrorist organization.' Well, not that consistently. Senator Obama has been scrupulously careful not to call explicitly for designation of the IRGC as a terrorist organization. Now, however, with the Democratic nomination almost in hand, Obama feels comfortable telling a pro-Israel audience what it wants to hear."(Danielle Pletka, "Obama's Pander Pivot," Weekly Standard, 6/4/08)


"[T]he Audience At AIPAC Might Ask Why Senator Obama Has Pivoted From Opposition To 'Lieberman-Kyl' To Support For The IRGC Designation His Audience Demands. Is This Really Change They Can Believe In?" (Danielle Pletka, "Obama's Pander Pivot," Weekly Standard, 6/4/08)


"Which Barack Obama Will Be The Democratic Standard-Bearer: The One Who Vowed To 'Eliminate' The Iranian Nuclear Threat Two Days Ago, Or The One Who Opposed Designating The Revolutionary Guards A Terrorist Organization?" (Editorial, "Obama And Iran," The Washington Times, 6/6/08)

FLIP-FLOP #4: Obama Now Claims That He Opposed Palestinian Elections In 2006, But He Supported Them At That Time:

Obama Says That He Opposed Palestinian Elections In 2006. Obama: "There is no room at the negotiating table for terrorist organizations. That is why I opposed holding elections in 2006 with Hamas on the ballot. The Israelis and the Palestinian Authority warned us at the time against holding these elections, but this administration pressed ahead. And the result is a Gaza controlled by Hamas, with rockets raining down on Israel." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At The Annual AIPAC Policy Conference, Arlington, VA, 6/4/08)

But During His 2006 Trip To The Middle East, Obama Met With Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas And Said The Election Represented An "Opportunity...To Consolidate Behind A Single Government." "Illinois Senator Barack Obama's journey to the Middle East took him to the West Bank Thursday for a meeting with the man elected to replace Yasser Arafat. ... For a time Thursday in the West Bank there was only the clatter of cameras as the newly elected president of the Palestinian authority, Mahmoud Abbas, met with Illinois Senator Barack Obama. At a meeting with Palestinian students Thursday, Obama said the U.S. will never recognize winning Hamas candidates unless the group renounces its fundamental mission to eliminate Israel, and Obama told ABC7 he delivered that message to the Palestinian president. 'Part of the opportunity here with this upcoming election is to consolidate behind a single government with a single authority that can then negotiate as a reliable partner with Israel,' said Obama." (Chuck Goudie, "Obama Meets With Arafat's Successor," ABC 7 News, http://obama.senate.gov, 1/12/06)

The Palestinian News Agency WAFA Reported That Obama Was Supportive Of The Palestinian Elections Being Held At Their Scheduled Time. "President Mahmoud Abbas met Thursday with the U.S. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL), in the Presidential HQ in Ramallah...President briefed the U.S. Senator about the latest developments in the Palestinian territories including the preparations for the legislative elections.... Abbas and Obama discussed the means of underpinning the American-Palestinian economic relations...Obama asserted the US supports and eager that the Palestinian legislative elections on its proposed time (January 25)."

haven't read all your copy pasted information but Palestinian News Agency WAFA is not a very reliable source.  ::MonkeyHaHa::

    I ask the same question, and also without prejudice.  Janet, is Canadian, a mere stone's throw from  our "Total Northern American Border", geographically closer that  two of our states, Alaska and Hawaii.  I would be surprised if the citizens of Canada were NOT deeply concerned in our politics and National Security, as the latter, certainly strongly affects their Country.  Who, what and where caesu is coming from is VERY questionable.  Maybe he can be traced to The Netherlands, but what his affiliations and agenda here are.... extremely subversive, in the least!!!

i don't know if you ever look over your borders.
but the entire world is watching the US elections closely.


do you think all obama supporters are terrorists?

so that means than that half of the electorate is a terrorist.

Auntiem, you really need to get a grip.

                   Where did I make the above statement??

           ( caesu, you need more than I "grip"!!!!   Start with a reality check!) ::MonkeyLaugh::

i didn't see you making that statement.

but i ask you that question to get to know how much you need to get deprogrammed.  ::MonkeyWink::

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080606/ap_on_el_pr/obama_jerusalem_fact_check_1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/06/AR2008060601590.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080606/pl_nm/usa_politics_obama_mideast_dc_3

I believe you will find the above links take you to news articles carrying the Jerusalem story, from Associated Press, Reuters, and the Washington Post. I purposefully chose Reuters and the Washington Post to post links because both are known to lean left. If you'd prefer other sources, you'll have hundreds of choices by Googleing.

No, not all Obama supporters are terrorists, just the ones that want to blow Americans and Israelis off the map.

cbb ... I see it so clearly and ... so do you.  I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

My youngest son's Dutch American FIL looks on the bright side ... the Obama issue is keeping his relationship with God alive and well ... he talks to Him continually about the rise of this relatively unknown.  Henke claims the cows at his dairy farm look at him strangely as he appears to mumbling to himself as he goes about his routine chores.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Janet

Good Morning Di.

Janet

Thank you for the giggle this morning, Tamikosmom!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

And also for the fresh air even in the Twilight Zone!  ::MonkeyWink::

cbb ... you are welcome.

I hope you have a good day.

Janet

I feel this topic "The Anti-Christ" has strayed from the subject. I'll have to start another thread to attempt to get more information.

caesu, your insipid grinning, your mastery of English, your anti-Americanism,  PLUS your immediate focus on my posts ring such a familiar bell!!!!   I THINK I KNOW YOU FROM PREVIOUS FORUMS AND BY A SLEW OF OTHER NICS!!!! ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

previous forums? then you are mistaken.
but to accuse me of anti-americanism, i am offended by that.
earlier you suggested i was a terrorist or something.
you must be such nice company if you disagree with someone.
accusing someone of such things.

and i know i make a lot of spelling errors. i wish i could edit my posts afterwards.
but this is not my first language. but my 3rd.

is there a way so i can make all your posts invisible. because i don't feel that they add anything towards discussion.
it's just ignorant hatefull accusations smearing and xenophobia.

  You only make spelling and gramatical errors when you "CHOOSE" to,   when you attempt to portray yourself as one "struggling" with the English language.

      but, oh boy, do you slip, and come out with impeccable English....or could that be some of your students?????

     Could you please show me when and where I accused you of being a "terrorist"??  Or will you once again evade my question???? ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

so you think i make spelling and grammatical errors on purpose now?
OMG ROFLMAO you are illusions continue to make me laugh. ::MonkeyHaHa::

but read what you wrote here:



http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2718.msg387726#msg387726

IF another illusion of you is that the lunatic right wing fringe represents a large part or even the majority of the country.
yes, than in your view, you could call me anti-american.

caesu

I contend that those who adhere a racist (Black Power) far left ideology are anti-American and ... those who adhere a racist (White Power) far right ideology are anti-American.

The rights and freedoms afforded by one of the greatest democracies on the face of the earth can be embraced by ALL American citizens.

Janet   

i agree with you.

but that was my response to Auntiem, who apparently thinks that a Obama supporter is automatically anti-American.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

caesu ... I do believe that many but ... not all of Barack Obama's supporters are anti-American but ... I believe that Obama is anti-American.

Janet
__________


Republicans prepare to take aim at Obama
Wednesday, January 9, 2008

But for former Republican House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who was known as "the Hammer" on Capitol Hill, said Republicans need to start deconstructing Mr. Obama now.

"Somebody from our side needs to start talking about Obama today. He's a Marxist but a very smart one — he doesn't let anyone know it," said Mr. DeLay.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jan/09/republicans-prepare-to-take-aim-at-obama/?page=1

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jan/09/republicans-prepare-to-take-aim-at-obama/?page=2

++++++++++++++

Obama: ‘I’m a Pretty Darned Good Politician’
by FOXNews.com
Wednesday, April 16, 2008

... I’m a pretty darn good politician. And I can give a pretty good speech and I can connect and inspire the American people in ways that I think will become apparent.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/16/obama-im-a-pretty-darned-good-politician/

+++++++++++

Transcript: Rev. Jeremiah Wright speech to National Press Club
April 28, 2008

REV. WRIGHT: … We both know that if Senator Obama did not say what he said, he would never get elected. Politicians say what they say and do what they do based on electability …

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-wrighttranscript-04282008,0,3593201.story?page=6

+++++++++++

Matthew 24
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

Back on topic...

In the end times, does anyone think the Rev. Jeremiah Wright would be shocked if it turns out Obama is the Anti-Christ? 

Would John McCain make a good Anti-Christ?

Which candidate would sell more tickets if there was a movie?

LOL! You're so cute WhiskeyGirl! OK, I'll bite.

I don't think Rev. Wright has the Holy Spirit discernment to recognize antichrist no matter who he is!

John McCain, at least right now, isn't innately likeable enough to be a good antichrist. I'm not sure his life expectancy is long enough to evolve into it either!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

If it were a true life story about Obama, I'd buy a ticket! I'm curious about his past!

Maybe tonight I'll post a few scriptures pertaining to antichrist to see what we can know about him. Right now, I'm supposed to be working!  ::MonkeyWink::

WhiskeyGirl ... in the past I have speculated and ... was convinced ... at different times ... that three political figures and ... one spiritual leader fit ALL the characteristics that Scripture reveals regarding the Anti-Christ.  Obviously ... I was wrong each time.  I have promised myself that I will not go there again.  However ... I have been known to break promises to myself.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

I believe that that Christians will have a difficult time recognizing the Anti-Christ.  Many deceitful politicians who have preceeded him will have been stepping stones and ... the gradual progression will have lulled many into a false security.

Janet

+++++++++

Matthew 24
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

I was liking Obama until the stuff about his church  ::MonkeyShocked::

Because of this thread, I found good reasons to like Hillary Clinton, and she wasn't my choice before.

Now, John McCain has entered the arena.

I wonder if there are any independents on the horizon?  Maybe one will come out of the woodwork and surprise everyone?

These were my choices in the last election (Wisconsin) ~

DEM
John Edwards/
John F. Kerry

REP Dick Cheney/
George W. Bush

LIB (Libertarian)
Richard V. Campagna/
Michael Badnarik

WGR (Wisconsin Greens)
Patricia LaMarche/
David Cobb

IND
Peter Miguel Camejo/
Ralph Nader

IND
Margaret Trowe/
James Harris

IND
Mary Alice Herbert/
Walter F. Brown

Does anyone else have choices other than Democrat or Republican?

 I believe as you do, Tamikosmom. Take the Matthew passage with this from 2 Thessalonians. Just as a brief background, in this letter from Paul to the early church at Thessalonica, he is addressing the congregation's concern that the "Day of the Lord" had already come. The Church was facing heated opposition from the synagogue, and inside the church there was great hope and expectation around Christ's promise to return. There was a vivid presence of the power of the Holy Spirit, and the opinion that perhaps the Lord's Day had already come, was beginning to emerge:

2 Thessalonians 1-17
The Man of Lawlessness
 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.   Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.  They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Stand Firm
 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.   May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.


I believe that this passage, supported by many others, tells us a few things about antchrist. Simply, I believe that he will proclaim to be Messiah, and I believe that he will perform "miracles". A study of Revelation depicts a time of accelerated "Supernatural" activity, both good and evil. Probably the most well known example of this is the 2 witnesses:

Revelation 11:3

 3"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."


Revelation 11:7-11
7When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

 9Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations  will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.

 10And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

 11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.

 12And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here " Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Everytime I read that passage, I'm curious as to how early Christians took this passage. It must have been a real head scratcher to try to figure out how the entire world could see these two lying in a street and ascend into the air when a voice calls! Of course, today, we take for granted that we can see on television any event around the globe in real time by turning on our TV!

Up until this point, antichrist has been "Christ-like", and has risen to power proclaiming peace. Here, we're at the 3 1/2 year mark and things are about to change. The 2 witnesses's preaching is over, but through the Jews, God's truth will continue to be proclaimed and many will achieve Salvation from their knowledge of God and scripture!

John 4:22
Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

Thank you cbb.

The passages which you shared implied that Christian were anticipating ... since Biblical times ... the ushering in of the Anti-Christ which precludes Christ return.

cbb ... I believe that many Christian will not recognize the anti-Christ for who he is and ... will actually be instrumental for his rise to power through the democratic process.  His will have the ability to deceive in so many areas as the many politicians (mini anti-Christs) before him who have paved the wave.

It has been a gradually progression over the years as both our great nations have ... in the name of political correctness ... left the God of our founding fathers out of the political process ... let the Absolute principles and values of Scripture ... principle and values that made America and Canada testimonies to the world ... become debateable.

I hope you have a good day cbb.

Janet

++++++++++++++

Matthew 24
For false messiahs and false prophets  will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.

Thanks to all for sharing scripture, I hope LV is reading here, since she mentioned we were off topic,but she wanted to learn and lots of answers here for her.
Janet, I got the book and what a page turner! Awsome read, however, I realize I'm reading the last book out of a series, so need to buy the 1st three. I hate reading series out od oerder, but can't put this book down!

Absolutely, Tamik! Antichrist could not just appear from a position of nowhere. He has to have a position of power and leadership and that takes time prior to the unfolding of tribulation events. The watering down of God's standards through political correctness is central to that and occurs even within the church:

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Today it seems biased, naive,  judgemental, and narrowminded to adhere to God's law. The notion of, "I have my truth, and you have yours, and we'll give equal respect and acceptance to both" is considered the "right, fair, and sophisticated" thing to do. And then there are the Rev. Wrights who pursue their own desires from the pulpit to push along a particular agenda.

Not everything is grey, sometimes things are black and white, and there is only one truth. Dismissing truth for tolerence "seems" so fair, even to Christians. We have arrived at a point that political candidates to our highest office who proclaim their Christianity, can advocate for Partial Birth Abortion, Gay Marriage, Internet Porn, etc. and the conflict is never even questioned. Over the door of the Supreme Court is a carving of Moses holding the tablets of God's Law. It stands as a measure of just how far away we have fallen.

There are many Christians, maybe even most Christians, who will not recognize who is among them. Obviously Eve was not repulsed by the creature in the garden, and his words seemed so reasonable that God's words began to seem strict and harsh. The author of the "Spirit of Lawlessness" is the same then as it is now.

WOW!!!

 ::cartwheel::

cbb ... I am very conservative in my worship.  "God says it ... I believe it and ... that settles it"!  However ... at eldest son and DIL's church ... the congregation is rolling in the aisles.

cbb ... I must have said AMEN out loud at least three times while reading your post.  D and S would have been so proud of me if they had been in the next room listening.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Your post is a keeper.  Thank you.

Janet

+++++++++

Thursday June 5, 2008
Exclusive: Interview with Mark DeMoss

With clients like Focus on the Family, Franklin Graham, and Campus Crusade for Christ, Mark DeMoss may be the most prominent public relations executive in the evangelical world. A former chief of staff to Jerry Falwell, DeMoss became then-presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s chief liaison to evangelical leaders. God-o-Meter caught up with him this week to ask how John McCain—and Barack Obama—are doing among evangelical opinion shapers and voters.

Interview ...
http://blog.beliefnet.com/godometer/2008/06/exclusive-interview-with-mark.html

Barack Obama is trying hard to win evangelical voters. Does that effort stand a chance?

If one third of white evangelicals voted for Bill Clinton the second time, at the height of Monica Lewinsky mess—that’s a statistic I didn’t believe at first but I double and triple checked it—I would not be surprised if that many or more voted for Barack Obama in this election. You’re seeing some movement among evangelicals as the term [evangelical] has become more pejorative. There’s a reaction among some evangelicals to swing out to the left in an effort to prove that evangelicals are really not that right wing. There’s some concern that maybe Republicans haven’t done that well. And there’s this fascination with Barack Obama. So I will not be surprised if he gets one third of the evangelical vote. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was 40-percent.

Good Morning Dihannah

Di ... I confess that I have not even look at DEAD HEAT other that scan through the pages.  It looks like some heavy reading.

I know I will have lots of time without grandkids and computer while hubby and I are taking a trip to the Northern waters of British Columbia in our boat this summer.  Travelling as well as the hours hubby spends fishing will given me the uninterrupted time needed to comprehend Joel Rosenberg's words.

Hey ... I did not know DEAD HEAT was part of a series.

Anyways ... enjoy and ... please provide us with a short outline as you finish reading each chapter.  In some areas of my life I lack will power.  I am one who reads the last chapter of a book to see how the story  is going to end but ... I always read the book.

Have a great day.

 ::MonkeyWink::

Janet
10:15 AM

I cannot comprehend the prediction of Mark DeMoss ... the prediction that implies that up to 40% of Evangelicals would vote for Barack Obama.

Janet

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6-9-2008

Obama Makes Promise to Planned Parenthood
by Jennifer Mesko, managing editor
The so-called Freedom of Choice Act could wipe away every state law limiting abortion.

Last year, presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., made a promise to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund:

"The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act," he said.

The so-called Freedom of Choice Act could wipe away every state law limiting abortion, undoing decades of legal work, research and educational successes.

Obama has co-sponsored the legislation with 18 other senators. The bill has the support of 109 members of Congress.

"Thirty-five years after Roe, abortion supporters, like Senator Obama, are dismayed that abortion remains a divisive issue and that their radical agenda has not been submissively accepted by the American public," writes Denise M. Burke, vice president of Americans United for Life.

"Rather than confronting legitimate issues concerning the availability and safety of abortion, they choose to blatantly ignore the concerns and interests of everyday Americans, as well as the growing evidence that abortion hurts women."

Day Gardner, president of the National Black Pro-Life Union, said even the federal Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act could be overturned.

“This shows exactly how dangerous this man is to unborn children," he said. "We are killing off our children, and this is something we really have to pay attention to.”

http://www.citizenlink.org/CLtopstories/A000007601.cfm

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Obama's Abortion Extremism
Wednesday, April 2, 2008

Obama has not made abortion rights the shouted refrain of his campaign, as other Democrats have done. He seems to realize that pro-choice enthusiasm is inconsistent with a reputation for post-partisanship.

But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html

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Jeremiah 1

5.  Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart ...

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Psalm 139

14. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

+++++++++++

Additional comments about the abortion issue -




http://www.aina.org/news/20080611155326.htm

I wonder how much of any campaign is "boiler plate"? 

Prominent Evangelical Names Four Modern Horsemen of the Apocalypse
By Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Wed, Jun. 11 2008 08:44 AM ET

INDIANAPOLIS – Many people say evangelicals are stuck on one issue – whether it’s abortion or same-sex “marriage” – when speaking out to defend moral values. But to those defending, it’s not just a single issue.

“Marriage is a single issue?” Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, posed to thousands of Southern Baptists Tuesday. “It’s the building block of society.”

Land believes there are four “modern horsemen of the apocalypse” that are “riding forth to wreak havoc and destruction in our society” – the denial of the sanctity of human life, the rise of hardcore Internet pornography, the radical homosexual agenda and its attempt to undermine marriage and radical Islamic jihadism.

“Make no mistake about it. Radical Islamic jihadism has declared war on America and American civilization and Christianity,” Land emphatically said.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080611/32770_Prominent_Evangelical_Names_Four_Modern_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse.htm

BUMPED

Had a bunch of bees trying to swarm a nest the other day - I just sat and watched em get all fired up thinking they were going to plant their honey laden bums in my domain. LAUGH buddy Laugh. Some things are not worth getting upset about. You can see it, it's clear as day - then step aside and the bees went away trying to make their way into someone else's domain. That is just how some bees are!

ribbit wisdom comes in handy.

No.

Unless you are giving up your Canadian citizenship. You are Canadian.

But the point is, no one is asking you - because you agree with their viewpoint and I thought it was insensitive to try to attack someone based upon their nationality just because they have an opposing viewpoint.

Would be nice to have discussion with backup information that supports the person's viewpoint rather then you're a commie type of answers.

Back to the pond.

Steps to prophesy of the Anti-Christ: (what I figure so far and I'm not an expert)

Isaiah 8:18 Israel is a sign
Restoration of Israel - it became a nation in 1948

Ezekiel 37 talks about Restoration of Israel
          38 Rise of Russia. Russia IS a power again today
(Meshech is the ancient name of Moscow
Tubalsk represents the present-day Russia)

Daniel 7:7 - a former empire
10 horns are symbolic of its power
Daniel 8:23-24 Powerful man will come from a resurrected kingdom

Rise of worldwide lawlessness
2 Tim 3:1-5
2 Peter 3: 3-4
2 Corinthians 11: 14-15

The Greatest Revival in History
Acts 3:19-21
Isaiah 60: 1-3
Romans 5:20

Eastern Gate, in the old city of Jerusalem will be re-opened.

There are 11 Gates
7 OPEN: Jaffa, Zion, Dung, Lion's, Herods, Damascus, New(not sure of the spelling on that)




Deut 32:8 - When restoration of Gentiles comes to an end
Every Jew will go back to Israel
Restoration of Israel will take place
Romans 11 25-26 Then the Rapture will occur

Ribbit

 ::MonkeyDance::

Whatcha jumping & dancing for ya little monkey!

 ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::

Hey ... you are jumping and dancing around more than me.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Kermit ... we are in agreement on the anti-Christ topic.  Now ... concerning the Barack Obama topic ...

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Janet

Any thoughts about King Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2?

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/dream.jpg)

I understand.

I hope you'll be able to come over to the other side of the table and also look at the truth of that side too.
THEN base your points of view on the whole truth. That is what I like to do, if & when I can. Then make decisions based upon the entire truth and not from just one side of the truth.

I'm sure as the debate's begin, we'll see more surface about each candidate.

Continue jumping.
ribbit

Daniel 8:9 little horn
Grecian Empire - springs forth from 1 division of 4 of the ancient Grecian Empires which emerged after Alexander the Great died.

Daniel 7: 7-8 Daniel will rise & conquer 3 horns (3 countries in old Roman empire)
those counties would be: Israel, Syria, Iraq

Janet,

I finished the book a couple days ago and I really can't give updates, as there are so many twists and turns in every chapter.   I will note that, though it fiction, it's very plausable, from current events across the world now, which is what makes it that more interesting.   All I can say, is if you enjoy action packed and mysterious, this is the book for you, even if you are NOT an End of Times believer as revealed in the Bible.

I've since started Tim LeHaye's (author of Left Behind series) new series of four, so far, starting with Babylon Rising and is a little slower to start, but moving faster now, with plenty action and mystery as well.

So anybody is interested in learning about the Anti-Christ., I would recommend both of these series, as well as Left Behind.  I admit, Revelations, Daniel etc.   are hard to comprehend without help or alot of studying, so these are ways to get the jist of it, assuming it's literal, in an interesting story.

BUMPED

The End of the World As We Know It? Prediction of Saturday "Rapture" is Fuel for Faithful, Doubters
Published May 19, 2011

RALEIGH, North Carolina -- For some, it's Judgment Day. For others, it's party time.

A loosely organized Christian movement has spread the word around the globe that Jesus Christ will return to earth on Saturday to gather the faithful into heaven. While the Christian mainstream isn't buying it, many other skeptics are milking it.

<snipped>

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/19/rapture-movement-predicts-end-world-saturday/


 

Reminder

No One Knows the Day or Hour
   
Matthew 24: 36-44

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.