Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

dutch defense minister Middelkoop says Aruba is 7.9 million guilders behind in payments for the Coast Guard.
payments for the years 1999-2002. also for 2007 Aruba hasn't paid yet.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_43614.php

http://www.kustwacht.an/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=89&Itemid=43
http://www.marine.nl/kustwacht/kwnaa/

******* - so Jossy, Patrick the OM were all on the Boycott email list, they were either invited or somehow knew where to sign up to be on the list.  My point is I have neither been invited or told where to sign up. I find that very odd.

why do you find it odd that you are not on a boycott list that includes people who do not support the boycott? That actually makes sense to me.  ::MonkeyHaHa::

ROFLMAO  ::MonkeyHaHa:: I would agree with you if that were the purpose of the email list  ::MonkeyHaHa::

The following is an excerpt from a DEF 14A SEC Filing, filed by SYSTEMONE TECHNOLOGIES INC on 6/30/1999

PIERRE MANSUR is our founder and has served as our Chairman of the Board and President since November 1990. From June 1973 to August 1990, Mr. Mansur served as President of Mansur Industries Inc., a privately held New York corporation that operated a professional race engine machine shop. Mr. Mansur has over twenty years of advanced automotive and machinery operations experience
including developing innovative automotive machine shop applications; designing, manufacturing, customizing, modifying and retooling high performance engines and component parts; developing state of the art automotive and powerboat race engines which have consistently achieved world championship status; and
providing consulting services and publishing articles with respect to automotive technical research data. Mr. Mansur has conducted extensive research and development projects for several companies, including testing and evaluating engine parts and equipment for Direct Connection, a high performance racing division of the Chrysler Corporation; researching and developing specialized engine piston rings and codings for Seal Power Corporation; researching high-tech plastic polymers for internal combustion engines for ICI Americas; and designing and developing specialized high performance engine oil pan applications. Pierre Mansur is the brother of Paul I. Mansur, our Chief Executive Officer and a member of our Board of Directors. Pierre Mansur is a graduate of the City University of New York.


PAUL MANSUR has served as our Chief Executive Officer and a member of our Board of Directors since September 1993. From September 1986 to July 1993, Mr. Mansur served as Chief Executive Officer of Atlantic Entertainment Inc., a privately held regional retail chain of video superstores. From March 1981 to September 1986, Mr. Mansur served as the Chief Executive Officer and President of Ameritrade Corporation, a privately held international distributor of factory direct duty free products. From June 1972 to March 1981, Mr. Mansur held various finance and operation positions, including Assistant Vice President Finance and Operations for Mott's USA, Inc., a division of American Brands. Paul Mansur is the brother of Pierre G. Mansur, our Chairman of the Board and President. Paul Mansur is a graduate of the City University of New York.

http://sec.edgar-online.com/1999/06/30/10/0000950144-99-008358/Section5.asp

+++++++++++

what the heck is the OM and Patrick and Jossy doing on any kind of list together and one involving the biggest case in Aruban history?

and shouldn't the OM be independent? that's what Jansen said and the reason she couldn't talk to Beth, but here the OM talks with people involved in the case. WTF???

This crooked little group probably plans out the next chapter while they lead the world around by their noses.

Mum - it seems like forever that I have been convinced that JM was Shango.  I think that I wanted to see him as the good guy, in spite of the BAT history, because he helped Beth.  I felt that he was politically motivated to help, but he still helped.  Now, I see that help as selective and in areas where he knew it was safe to help.  When LaLa's and Rob started uncovering the video businesses in Florida and the correlations to Mansur businesses, I started to become skeptical.  I am convinced that someone with deep pockets is financing Paulass, Urine, and the Kalpoes right now.  Someone is paying for their lifestyles and the best lawyers that money can buy.  Paulass's trip to Florida suddenly set me off in a different direction.  I've been rereading Shango over and over, and now I see JM loud and clear.  Shango is correct.  If Dirty Hand is exposed the entire house of cards will fall.  Dirty Hand knows.  JM knows.  DirtyHand walks with the Babylons, the Arawaks and is consort to the fallen elder

Correct me if I'm wrong, the above connects Paul Mansur, Pierre Mansur and Jossy Mansur.  It also connects them to Atlantic Entertainment Inc which was a regional chain of video rental stores  ::MonkeyShocked::

Not any more it doesnt.  ::MonkeyLaugh:: It was just something Vicki put together for the people who wanted to be a part of the travel shows and distributing info and ideas. They have another very small discussion at google groups.  You should ask Vicki to join if you are interested.

They weren't talking,just eavesdropping  ::MonkeyLaugh:: I was pretty shocked to see them on that list..lol Sneaky Sneaky Sneaky  ::MonkeyWink::

how do you explain this? take out the John Charles Croes pin, and you are still left with Jossy's houses and Mansur Industries all in a mile of each other - that's got to be the biggest coincidence or it really is something.

(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/Morgan2112_2006/JOHNCHARLESCROES4.jpg)

There is also a Jon Clawson on that board that had connections to Cipher Entertainment.

If it turns out out the Atlantic Entertainment Inc. is connected with pornographic videos ... I am done!!

Janet

LOL...Shango was not a good guy...he/she was a chicken...

http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba

Five members of the Aruban Mansur Family, viz. Mr. Elias F. Mansur, Mrs. Damia M. de Cuba-Mansur, Mr. Luis E. Mansur, Mr. Miguel J. Mansur and Mrs. Sarah E. Arends-Mansur, have raised objections against general references in the following chapter to the Mansurs or the Mansur family. In their opinion these references may be understood as including them and thereby implicating them in alleged wrongdoing they have never committed.
The author is of the opinion that such references to a large family will not be misunderstood as including each and every member of the family. However, in case this opinion should prove incorrect, the author points out that he regrets such misunderstanding and that he did not intend said references to implicate all members of the family.
The Cuntrera-Caruana clan had links with another Aruban bank: the Interbank. The bank granted a credit to the Cuntrera company "Investeringen Tweehonderd en Tien" for 1.8 million Aruban guilders (approximately one million dollars). Why the Cuntreras who own several investment companies in Venezuela needed the loan is unknown.

One could speculate, however, this was a 'loan-back' operation to launder money. An amount of money is deposited cash at a bank and the bank lends the money back: now there is a clean and legitimate source of earnings. But there is no proof, no one ever looked really into the relations of the bank with the Sicilian mafiosi. The letter of credit was issued before the mafia connections of the clan became officially known on the island. This did not stop the bank from keeping the Cuntreras as clients. During Operation Wiseguy the undercover DEA agents were asked to wire money for a shipment of hashish on the account of Alfonso Cuntrera at the Interbank.

The Interbank is owned by the Mansur Family. If anybody owns 60 per cent of the island, it is this powerful family. The Mansurs made their fortune as cigarette manufacturers and in the import-export business. With a licence of Philip Morris, they are the major suppliers of Marlboros in the Caribbean basin. The Mansurs sponsor the best baseball team – Aruba's national sport – the Marlboro Red Tigers as well as the AVP party of Prime Minister Henny Eman. They own the biggest hotel and time-sharing complex, La Cabana, with its inevitable casino. And they have a couple of import-export businesses in the Free Trade Zone.

Jossy Mansur is the owner and chief editor of the biggest newspaper on the island, "Diario". "When I read an article in Diario, I know what will be the next action of the government,"says Hendrik Croes, adding that the Mansurs create a climate of fear and intimidation on Aruba. Their newspapers force others off the market. Furthermore, "their annual income is bigger than the yearly budget of the government. And you may guess how they make that kind of money”."Jossy Mansur is not impressed claiming that accusing people of drug trafficking and money laundering "has become a political tool to discredit them”." (75) Jossy Mansur acts as the family's mouthpiece, Ruben and the elder Alex are the patriarchs, and Elias 'Don' Mansur is the family's whizz-kid. Elias graduated at Notre Dame University, and was Minister of Economic Affairs in Eman's first cabinet. As representative for the Free Trade Zone entrepreneurs in a mixed Dutch-Aruban commission he has to recommend measures to tighten regulations in the FTZ to prevent money laundering and contraband, together with Dutch government officials. (76)

More and more the name Mansur turns up in money laundering cases. Alex and Eric Mansur were indicted in Puerto Rico in August 1994. (77) President Clinton specifically mentioned the Mansur's when he put Aruba on the list of Major Illicit Drug-transit Countries in December 1996. Although no member of the family was actually indicted in the La Costa case, the name Mansur is frequently is found in the files which were seized at Habibe's home on Aruba.

 
"Senator Samuel Santander Lopesierra Gutierrez, also known as the Marlboro Man

DEA announces arrest of ex-Colombian Senator Samuel Santander Lopesierra, DEA Press Release, October 9, 2002
Con alcohol se lava más blanco, Primerapagina.com, November 14, 2004

"Read more about Lopesierra in the Colombian magazine Semana (in Spanish):

El Hombre Marlboro, Semana, April 18, 1994

El fantasma de la Monita, Semana, March 31, 1997

Las maletas de Martelo Semana, October 5, 1998

See also: Big Tobacco - Uncovering The Industry's Multibillion-Dollar Global Smuggling Network
The Nation, May 6, 2002
"
 
 
In Venezuela the Mansurs are implicated in money laundering with Santa Lopesierra, the Marlboro Man. Every month Santa 're-invests' 20 million dollar "with the help of a well-known entrepreneur called Mansur”." (78) Lopesierra is accused to have financed his election with the proceeds of drug trafficking and a car-theft ring. He is also reputed to be the man behind the Puerto Rico indictment. The activities of Mansur and Lopesierra, however, go well beyond this. They are accused of illegally funding the presidential campaign of Colombian president Ernesto Samper in 1994. Not only did Samper allegedly receive 6 million dollars from the Cali Cartel – an accusation he vehemently denies and ascribes to political machinations – it is said he also pocketed US$ 500,000 in cash offered by "a group from Philip Morris and Interbank”." (79)

The 'Philip Morris people' are Alex and Eric Mansur and a member of the Lopesierra Family (Santa Lopesierra belongs to the Samper faction in the Liberal Party). Samper tried to ease out of meeting the group, the story goes. He suggested that one of his campaign officials should pick up the cash and bring them to the office later for coffee. "No one gives that kind of money just for coffee. That's worth at least a breakfast," the campaign official replied.

The Mansur Family seems to have all the right connections in its corner of the Caribbean. Some Mansur's still have Venezuelan nationality, and they have interests in Maracaibo and Caracas, as well as in Punto Fijo and Coro, where the originally Lebanese Mansur Family had settled before moving to Aruba. Punto Fijo is situated on the Paraguaná peninsula in the North at the Golfo de Venezuela, which separates it from La Guajira. A ferry connects Punto Fijo to Aruba. Some 20 years ago, in 1974, a few Sicilians set up a fishing company in Punto Fijo called "Mediterranea Pesca". Among the shareholders: Leonardo and Giuseppe Caruana and Giuseppe Cuffaro. The company owned a sea-going vessel and Italian police suspected that "in view of the background of the owners it is probably a cover for drug trafficking”." (80)

Maybe the Mansurs and the Cuntrera-Caruana clan first met each other in this remote part of the world. Nobody knows. (81) But they certainly have met on Aruba, according to several insiders and law enforcement officers. Venezuelan police-officer Guillermo Jiménez states: "I know they are connected. I have sent files about bank transactions between the Mansur's and the Cuntrera's to Aruba. But documents about the Mansur's are kept secret over there." DEA-officer David Lorino is equally convinced and has connected the Cuntreras with Ruben Mansur. In his judgement, "Ruben Mansur is a major-league dope-peddler”." The DEA has the toll-records of the Cuntrera phones in Caracas. "They phoned Mansur's trading company and his place. They certainly talked to each other." What they said, Lorino doesn't know, since it is not permitted to tap phones in Venezuela.


Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 9:51 pm
DirtyHand walks with the Babylons, the Arawaks and is consort to the fallen elder
The gods are talking  

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 9:57 pm
Outsiders brought into the Arawak tribe walk in many circles, nameless  

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 9:59 pm
DirtyHand can bring down all houses
DirtyHand is the key
His reach is long
He walks in all circles
consort to all, except for the gods
He knows the sacrifice is not responsible  

Or a link here would be interesting also.

Back Seat Bangers.com

IP Location:  Netherlands Antilles - Curacao -   

Owned by Vista Distribution, Aruba
Santa Cruz 62

==========================
Mr Pink Productions
PO BOX 1122
Miami, FL 33131

Janet - I would say the odds are rising.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/Morgan2112_2006/AtlanticEntertainmentGOOGLEEARTH6.jpg)

The odds are also rising that PVDS may have met one of these many connections to Aruba ,Porn or the Mob/Cartels at 701 or 444 Brickell Ave.

United American Corp · 10SB12G · On 10/13/99 · EX-3.1
Filed On 10/13/99   ·   SEC File 0-27621   ·   Accession Number 891554-99-1927

Mark J. Bryn                           
444 Brickell Avenue, Suite #750          
Miami, Florida 33131 

http://www.secinfo.com/dr6wd.61s8.d.htm

Where is Kermit when you need him? He says the FBI knows. ::MonkeyCool::

Wait a minute!!!

 ::MonkeyShocked::

It would appear that Jossy, Paul and Pierre Mansur's affiliations with Atlantic Entertainment ended in 1993 ... twelve years prior to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Have I got that right?

Janet

I meant 1993.

Yes, you're right.  It would have been better stated as ... I didn't want to see him as Dirty Hand because he had helped Beth.  JM has to make sure that Paulass, Urine, and the Kalpoes never talk because if they do, that entire Florida operation will explode as well as the illegal stuff on crappy island.  They now have the best lawyers that can be found and their lives are quite comfortable.


Can we find out what Babalu posted at 12:30 on June 27, 2005?
Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 9:48 pm
Babalu knew who dirty hand was at half past 12  

Yes, that's correct long before Natalee

Babalu was talking about Jan vander Straten.

Babalu was talking about Jan vander Straten



Oh swell, that doesn't fit at all.  I have been wandering around the LCDs and I can't find the posts from 2005.  Do we still have them?

Right now we only have archived forum posts for 2 weeks of June 2005.  The front page posts are all there. 

Babalu, Shango, Simian were all posting on the front page of SM.

Maybe Jossey isnt a bad person but he knows too much and has to cover for somone higher up.  Who would that be?

Do you think its possible that JM planted the shoe, but then realized he couldnt give a copy of the letter to Destiny because you all might recoginize his writing style.....but he just wanted to case to be solved and over with???

Thanks Klaas.  I think I found them.  I was looking in the wrong place.  Now I just have to read through it all.

I am not turning my back on Jossy.  He went out on a limb for the family of Natalee Holloway.  He went so far out on that limb that Rudy Croes declared a boycott on his DIARIO publication.  Jossy had to appeal to the Queen to get Rudy Croes to back off.

Following his pledge in December, 2007 to Scared Monkeys that he would continue his quest for justice for Natalee Holloway until the truth was reveal ... Jossy voice became suspiciously silence and ... his last interview with Dana ... he was very elusive.

We do not know what has gone on behind the scenes since December, 2007.  We have no idea what pressure the "powers that be" in Aruba may have put on him.  Jossy had some family issues.  Also ... it must not be forgotten that Jossy has a serious heart condition.

Over the past three years ... Jossy Mansur could have kept quiet but he didn't.  He appeared on the American talk show circuit.  There were several interview that he granted to us Monkeys through Red and Dana.  The DIARIO publication printed the one page letter from Monkeys submitted by Destiny on the third anniversary of Natalee Holloway disappearance.

I have never gotten involved with Shango's riddle.  Why?  I consider Shango to be a very very cruel person.  He/She claims to know the truth encompassing the disappearance of Natalee Holloway and ... yet has chosen to put her poor family through a H--- on Earth for the past thre years.  He/she could have come forward anonomously to the FBI.

Monkeys ... our research may reveal that Jossy has a shady past but ... his words and actions in the past three years have proved that he is a man of honor.  No other Aruban has done what Jossy has done.

Janet
_____________

A REMINDER

BETH TWITTY
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
September 14, 2005

TWITTY: Well, you know, I‘ll be forever grateful for Jossy Mansur, who is there. And he has been so instrumental. And he‘s just a hero to all of us. And, you know, he‘s my only hope on the island. And we‘ll be forever grateful to him.


DAVE HOLLOWAY
Dana Pretzer Show
September 8, 2006

HOLLOWAY: Jossy has been very helpful to try to find the truth, the fact he lives in Aruba and publishes a newspaper, they're attacking him because he's looking for-- fighting for-- the truth. That’s what a good journalist does--He's going to go after the people, regardless, and try to find the truth


STEVE HOLLOWAY
Scared Monkey - FP Comments
April 6, 2007
 
Comment #20 ... I think he is a good man looking for the truth. He will not let them push him around. This is his home and is probably sick of the corruption that happens every day on such a large scale on such a small island.
Comment by Steve Holloway | April 6, 2007, 1:02 pm


JUG TWITTY
Scared Monkey - FPComments
December 5, 2005

Comment #6 ... THANK YOU JOSSY I DON’T KNOW HOW YOU DO IT BUT YOU HAVE BEEN THERE FOR US FROM THE BEGENNING AND THE PEOPLE OF ARUBA SHOULD BE PROUD OF YOU.
Comment by JUG TWITTY | December 5, 2006, 10:57 am


++++++++++++++++


Jossy Mansur
'Scarborough Country'
August 26, 2005

DANIELS:  It definitely smells that way.  You know, if you take the prosecution‘s statement at its face, we are talking on a whole new level, the charges here.  We are talking about drugs.  We are talking about rape and we are talking about rape of many different people.  There are four guys now in custody, four best friends.  What does that tell you?
 
MANSUR:  Well, what it tells me is that, really, these four guys are friends.  They belong to the same group, these party boys that go out and prey on young, unsuspected girls or other kinds of girls also that are out to have a good time, not suspecting what they‘re in for with these predators around.

And they are—they not only appear in photographs together, but I understand that Freddy lives very near to the Joran house.  So, there is a bond between them.  There is a group that they call themselves the pimps, in which all of these participate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9119491/


Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER
July 23, 2007

Dana: One thing that makes my listeners scratch their heads so to speak and wonder, myself included and we'll talk about it again, is the fact of the underage drinking and gambling that had been going on admittedly by young van der Sloot.  Was there ever any discussion or has there ever been any discussion at least of filing some charges as far as that goes?

Jossy:  No, there hasn't been any of that. The authorities have just (inaudible) it aside, they haven't paid any attention to it then and they're not paying any attention to it now and over the past 26 months.   I haven't seen anything in the direction of trying to make some kind of statement that this is not (inaudiable) at least make some sort of a statement that this is not (inaubible) because it is a known fact that as an underage he wasn't supposed to be in the casino, much less in the company of his father. He was there, there are video tapes to prove that and still the authorities haven't done anything with regard to that specific case.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/07/23/the-dana-pretzer-show-monday-july-23rd-2007-special-guests-larry-sinclair-jossy-mansur-ladonna-meredith-attorney-jay-paul-deratany/


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
July 26, 2005

MANSUR: Because they were trying to hide their faces at that the hour, because we have to remember that the two Kalpoe brothers and Joran held on to the statement that they dropped Joran off at the beach and then went home. But here we have someone that says categorically that they did not go home, they were in the car with Joran. Joran was sitting in the driver`s seat.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/26/ng.01.html


Jossy Mansur
DIARIO Aruba
April 26, 2006

Further, the gardener’s testimony stands as valid and concrete to this day. He confirmed this in front of a judge. He passed a lie detector test successfully! Nothing of what he has said has been contradicted with solid proof to this day.

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2006_04_30_archive.html


Jossy Mansur
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
February 16, 2006

COSBY: … In the civil suit, it provided some nuggets of some of the information, and some of this hadn‘t really been highlighted before, Jossy. It said, “In the early hours of Monday morning”—this was when Natalee went missing—“Deepak methodically and uncharacteristically cleaned his silver Nissan car, claiming after the fact that it had bad ants in it.”

Had you heard that before, Jossy? And that, I think, is an interesting nugget.

MANSUR: Yes, ma‘am, we have heard it. We know that that early morning, they went into a total clean-up of the car. Witnesses, neighbors that live close to them testified to that. So the clean-up did take place.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11413381/


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
August 23, 2005

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": That`s what I understand, that this jogger also saw the same car parked at the same spot by the racquet club. However, he did call from a public telephone, and I don`t know whether the police can trace it or not. But according to information I have, they cannot.

GRACE: Well, they already know it`s from a public phone. They know where it was. Take a listen to this.

<snipped>

... Jossy, I want to get everything I can from you that you know about this jogger. Could you just tell me, what night is it the jogger calls police about what he saw?

MANSUR: I think it was two or three nights after Natalee disappeared. I don`t know. I don`t have any of the answers to that. I don`t know any of the facts involved. I know that the police have put out a call for him. They`ve requested us to publish it, where we did publish a request for this man to come forward. And they`ve been on the radio and everywhere else, asking for this jogger to show up, to give his testimony.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/23/ng.01.html


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE: … Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html


Jossy Mansur
'Scarborough Country'
August 26, 2005

DANIELS:  Yes.  But I just can‘t get away from the fact that the Kalpoe brothers arrested today, Freddy arrested today.  It has to mean something.  There has to be a master plan here.  What are you hearing about that?
 
MANSUR:  Well, if there is a master plan, we will know about it soon enough.
 
What I do know is that Freddy was questioned at the beginning with relations to the Natalee Holloway case.  He offered an alibi, I believe, to protect Joran.  And then he was released.  And now he‘s arrested as a suspect of selling photographs.  Maybe they are aiming to get to him through this photo business back to the Holloway case.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9119491/


Jossy Mansur
Dana Pretzer Show
December 14, 2006

DANA: When you look at this case, a question keeps coming up. I am looking at the picture on my PC. It is the alleged picture of a person in the casino with Natalee that looks a lot like Paul. Has there been any update on this issue?

JOSSY: There have not been any change of opinion. People, including people in the casino say that is Paul.


Jossy Mansur
DANA SHOW
June 18, 2006

MANSUR: It does look very familiar to what she was wearing, but I'm unable to confirm it, we would have to go search for the fabric itself which has disappeared since. Every piece of evidence or what appears to be evidence has disappeared or we never heard about it again.


Jossy Mansur
Dana Pletzer Show
October 5, 2007

MANSUR: People thought Beth caused bad publicity for the island, but Beth is not at fault, it is the three suspects. If there's damage to the island it should be on the shoulders of the three suspects.


Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER
June 18, 2006

MANSUR:  I do know what our reporters have been able to find, Lorenzo is a half brother of Joran. He has a boat. He lives in a secluded section of the island, very close to Joran. I don't know if he was questioned, but people mention his name quite often in regard to this case.

http://sundaynightsatellite.libsyn.com/index.php?post_year=2006&post_month=06&post_day=18


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
July 29, 2005

GRACE: OK. Jossy, is there any way to tie in a white pick-up to this scenario?

MANSUR: Yes, ma`am, because there`s another witness that, before that, told someone that works at the hotels that he saw a white pick-up over there by the Holiday Inn, in which three persons were also in, all of them male, carrying what looked like the body of a girl, putting it in the back of the white pick-up and driving away with it.
 
GRACE: OK. So you`ve got a white pick-up at the Holiday Inn, where Natalee was staying. You`ve got a white pick-up at the landfill. Both eyewitnesses state that there were three individuals, I`m assuming male. But can they give an identification of Joran Van Der Sloot or the Kalpoe brothers?
 
MANSUR: None of them have given that kind of a description. They haven`t identified the three males. But it`s very important to note that the witness on the beach by the Holiday Inn has absolutely no knowledge of the witness over there to the east side of the island by the landfill or dump. They don't know each other, but still they give the same description of the same white pick-up.
 
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/29/ng.01.html


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
July 26, 2005

MANSUR: Because they were trying to hide their faces at that the hour, because we have to remember that the two Kalpoe brothers and Joran held on to the statement that they dropped Joran off at the beach and then went home. But here we have someone that says categorically that they did not go home, they were in the car with Joran. Joran was sitting in the driver`s seat.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/26/ng.01.html


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE: … Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html


Caso Natalee Procesverbaal di polis hulandes ta mustra ‘NAN’ A DRENTA PANICO ORA CU NATALEE A KEDA ‘PASSED OUT’
The Natalee Case...Dutch official report shows
'THEY' WENT INTO PANIC WHEN NATALEE REMAINED 'PASSED OUT'

Oranjestad (AAN) As promised to the peoples of Aruba and the U.S.A., DIARIO will continue with its investigation on the missing girl, Natalee Holloway, and will publish legitimate documents accompanied by analysis and questions that sooner or later will bring out the truth.

Today, the investigative team of DIARIO is publishing part of an
official report given by a Dutch police officer who came to Aruba to
interrogate Joran van der Sloot among others.

The Dutch police officer states that Joran van Der Sloot is aware of
the possibility that exists that one day the American authorities will
ask for his extradition due to the fact that the missing girl (Natalee)
is an American Citizen. Joran's reaction was that he began to laugh!!!

Now Joran began to laugh because he was afraid or because he felt
reassured because he was told beforehand that "no body, no crime"?

From this same official report one can deduct that Joran again throws the ball in Deepak Kalpoe's corner, because he tells the Dutch officer that if they interrogate Deepak in the same manner that they interrogated Joran, then Deepak for sure will tell the truth. Which truth? How come the Dutch police officer did not ask Van der Sloot about which truth he was referring to?

Joran also said that if some weeks before they had interrogated him in the aforementioned manner, then the truth would have come out much faster!

Again the question remains: to what truth is Joran referring to? The
supposed truth that he left Natalee behind all alone on the beach?

That is the truth that he so heavily sustained during so many weeks with his mouth closed, turn all sorts of story around, remain without speaking, become fresh with the police interrogators, come every time with a different story to contradict other stories, and that show that he had been lying from the beginning?

The question now is: what is Joran referring to with this 'different
form of interrogation'?

How come they did not continue with this 'different form of
interrogation' of the suspects, to determine what happened to Natalee and where Natalee is?

The culminating part of this procesvebaal (official report) is that
when the police officer mentioned the following: "I, De Ruiter,
mentioned to Van der Sloot that there was no interest in lying to
him about this fact (he is referring to the declaration of Freddy Zedan Arambatzis) because the importance of the declaration made by the witness Zedan Arambatzis, was directed towards the fact that Joran had already on the 30th of May told Freddy the story about the Holliday Inn and that Joran told Freddy also that "they" went into panic when Natalee remained "passed out"!

Everyone can read today what was put black on white "Dat ze" went into panic, and the "Ze" here in Dutch shows that more than one person was involved in that part about entering into panic, because "ze" is plural.

There is nowhere in this official report that Joran hurriedly contradicted the Dutch police when reference was made to "They" entered into panic and said that there were no other people involved!!!

Seeing that the Dutch officer himself mentions that "they" entered
into panic, according to the declaration of Freddy Zedan, then there were more than one person involved and everyone can reach his own conclusion that Freddy Zedan knows those who he himself referred to as "they", or in Papiamento "nan". "They" went into panic when Natalee remained passed out!!! This means that more than one person was present when Natalee remained passed out
and where are these people who were with Natalee when she remained passed out?

On the beach like "they" want the police and everyone else to believe, or elsewhere?

Do they who belong to the group referred to as "they" realize now that the circle is slowly closing around "them"? For those who understand what this means, few words are necessary!

The strange part is that Joran declared to the Dutch policeman based on his questions, that he had recently spoken to the witness Freddy Zedan Arambatzis, and that during that conversation, Joran asked Freddy why he mentioned the date of 30 May, and Van der Sloot told the policeman that he (Freddy) just mentioned a date and that the witness in truth heard the story from Van der Sloot himself the day after Natalee disappeared.

Here's another point in the investigation that proves very controversial and even questions severely the fact that a suspect in police custody or is under investigation, even has the possibility and facility to speak to one of the witnesses, that is Freddy Zedan Arambatzis.

In which part of the world can a suspect under police investigation
for the disappearance of someone, get the possibility to speak to a
witness who is his friend?

On which day did Joran speak with Freddy, where and who gave Joran (while in police custody) the great privilege to speak to a witness who can declare in his favor?

Reading the expositions of the Dutch police officer, who mentioned
extradition to Joran, sources in the U.S. are indicating that they are
waiting for the opportune moment to ask for the extradition of Joran van der Sloot, the brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, Freddy Arambatzis, and other names that have not yet been made public.

Preparations can be under way to petition internationally for an order of arrest via the Interpol for those who the U.S. wants to extradite because, as those sources say, they will get them any part of the world and will bring them to justice; in Aruba they won't get as many years in prison like in the U.S.

http://www.diario-aruba.com/2006/12/6/

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/fun-images/Diario120606_281_29.bmp


Jossy Mansur
Scared Monkey - Front Page
December 9, 2007

Jossy Mansur also made it known that DIARIO will not stop in the pursuit of the truth in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. We asked Jossy Mansur, the managing editor of Diario, his opinion on this matter.

I wish I could give you a proper answer, but I have the same dilemma of belief in the prosecution. I don’t know how Moss could risk re-arresting the three suspects, give such confident interviews, speak with so much determination about his new evidence, and then suddenly is willing to throw in the towel and put an end to his resolve. Was it just a show, a public exhibition of “we did everything that we could, but at the end couldn’t”, prior to closing the case and attempt in the process to put up a front of “good intentions” and nothing else? It seems so from this new perspective that he himself has created. It brings to mind the opinion that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”!

We at the DIARIO have been questioning other incomprehensible attitudes of the prosecuting department on other matters with concrete, documented facts. It has become obvious to us and to the independent part of the population that the prosecutors will only act on behalf of the government against its opponents, but never….and I will repeat NEVER against the corrupt Ministers and Parliament members of the ruling party. In short, the majority of the people in Aruba are convinced that politics has a lot to do with the prosecution’s decisions.

I said that once in an editorial against the Attorney General and she took me to court. She lost in the lower courts, appealed, and lost again in the High Court! I was upheld in that statement by four different Dutch Judges! And so was the mayor opposing party, the AVP, who said the same thing and was also taken to Court and also won their case against the Attorney General. I believe in the Judges in Aruba, but how can I continue to believe in the prosecutors when faced with such devastating facts? I am willing to uphold our system of justice, I am willing to go to great lengths to defend it because it has functioned well in most cases, but it too has to show me that it is blind to political influence and and any kind of pressure in ALL cases! And that is pathetically missing in Natalee’s case,

Mos may have thrown in the towel, or is willing to do so and not go to trial, but we at the DIARIO will never give up on the case until the truth is know about what happened to Natalee. The first thing I will order Monday morning is a total review of the case, from its incipience, and to put all the FACTS together, and that it be published, including the documents, admissions, interviews and other pertinent facts that are in our possession. We will give it our best to prove to Mos and his associates that the case cannot be closed while there is so much fact, indication and admissions in play!

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/12/09/jossy-mansur-provides-an-opinion-on-the-actions-of-aruban-prosecutor-hans-mos/


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
August 17, 2005

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": I don`t know what`s happening, but the gardener, the witness, did stand by his story. He did confirm in front of the judge, in front of the defense attorneys, in front of the suspects, that he recognized, and he even recognized two of the three suspects that were there. He hasn`t changed his story one bit.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/17/ng.01.html


Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER
July 23, 2007

Dana: One thing that makes my listeners scratch their heads so to speak and wonder, myself included and we'll talk about it again, is the fact of the underage drinking and gambling that had been going on admittedly by young van der Sloot.  Was there ever any discussion or has there ever been any discussion at least of filing some charges as far as that goes?

Jossy:  No, there hasn't been any of that. The authorities have just (inaudible) it aside, they haven't paid any attention to it then and they're not paying any attention to it now and over the past 26 months.  I haven't seen anything in the direction of trying to make some kind of statement that this is not (inaudiable) at least make some sort of a statement that this is not (inaubible) because it is a known fact that as an underage he wasn't supposed to be in the casino, much less in the company of his father. He was there, there are video tapes to prove that and still the authorities haven't done anything with regard to that specific case.


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
August 3, 2005

GRACE: And Jossy, have you heard any information regarding a search for one of those little kiddie pools?
 
MANSUR: They have been searching for that. They have found one, and they`re concentrating on that area where this witness says that when they dumped the body, they covered it with some other bags and then put this little pool on it.
 
GRACE: OK, I`m sorry. I didn`t hear that. Repeat, Jossy.

MANSUR: They are searching where -- they did find this -- one of these pools, this pool, and they have been searching in that specific area because we have to remember that this garbage has been moved about quite a bit from that day on by big tractors and front-end loaders and whatever.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/03/ng.01.html

Janet - I'm inclined to agree with you about Jossy.  Even though I believe some of his motives are politically motivated, I don't believe he is obstructing justice in the NH case.  ::MonkeyWink::

Also ... Gretagrip has translated countless editorials from DAIRIO authorted by Jossy Mansur uphold the family's perception that a corruption stood in the way of justice for Natalee Holloway.

Janet

+++++++++++

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/

 

I think Jossy's pretty high on the food chain.  Maybe he's trying to protect all of the illegal activities of the cartel, possibly Posner and the mob, or maybe the financial interests that his own family are involved in.  If all of those illegal activities started to crumble, that entire island would probably fall apart.  Maybe this is why the FBI hasn't helped.  Solving Natalee's disappearance could be explosive as far as the other activities in the web of corruption on the island and heaven only knows where else.  Maybe it's just too big to solve and they're  letting the village idiot (who isn't innocent) take the heat for everyone.

SS: I posted lotsa FP links for you
in shango/simian thread

Thank you Klaas.

Hugs

Janet

I can't find any info on Atlantic Entertainment, Inc. in Miami, and I know they are now "inactive".

The only Atlantic Entertainment, Inc. I can find in the US is as follows:

Atlantic Entertainment Inc
201-944-0114

335 E Brinkerhoff Ave
Palisades Park, NJ 7650

Categories: Adult Entertainment
 :shock:

If it is confirmed that Atlantic Entertainment, Inc. in Miami who lists director as Jossy Mansur was actually Jossy Mansur of Aruba, even though it is inactive as a company, there would be a connection through the same incorporating attorney, Mark J. Bryn, as BangBros, LLC,  Jeffery Greenberg. 

Perhaps Rob can confirm with Grande whether or not the Jossy Mansur connected to Atlantic Entertainment, Inc. in Miami, is in fact Jossy Mansur of Aruba.

 

Helen ... it most likely is the same Jossy Mansur.  However ... according to a quote I posted on the first page of this thread ... the connection ended in 1993 ... twelve year prior to  the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Janet

Someone in the Shango posts were asking about a possible "prince" link to all of this.  Maybe, the Lions of the Netherlands??

I don't think there is any connection between the current Atlantic Entertainment Inc in NJ and the one from the 90's in Miami that Jossy was connected with. 

I don't either, Klaas.  I have never suspected Jossy of being anything other than an advocate for Natalee and the Holloway family. 

I just happened to "google" Atlantic Entertainment, Inc, and got "adult entertainment".  What are the chances I would land on something like that?

But are you saying that the Atlantic Entertainment in Miami from the 90's is confirmed to be "our" Jossy? 

If it is demonstrated that Atlantic Entertainment, Inc. in Miami was "our" Jossy Mansur, and shared the same incorporating attorney in FL as BangBros, LLC, then I might start to get nervous. 

Helen, I like your avator the best of all.  That little monkey is just sleeping right?

It looked to me like the Mansur's of Atlantic Entertainment Inc (Miami 90's) are the same Mansur family as Jossy.  Let me go back and look again but that's what it looked like to me.

Time for a game of Scrabble.

Klaas ... would you please change my post to 12 years prior to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

I have been going around in a fog all day and ... climbing the walls ... no coffee.  I am trying to cut caffeine out of my diet but ... I don't think it is working.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Have you been successful at quitting smoking.  I hope so.

Good Night Monkeys

Janet
9:10 PM

Hi Monkeys!

Very interesting discussion tonight re; Jossy.

I'm not sure what to think of him at this point.  He did seem to be of huge help for Beth and Dave in the beginning.

Couple of things about him that have me a little uneasy.  If memory serves he made Karin J  "woman of the year" or supported her or something.  (I don't save any links and go strictly on memory) and I believe he also backed Jan van der Stratten and called him a friend.  How could any unbiased journalist think these two didn't help scumbag Paulus and his missing link of a son?

If he was connected to porn past or present, he's a dirtbag too, imo.

I hope I'm wrong and way out of line.

Helen - I don't see where BangBus has the same LLC Attorney?  Is it posted and I missed it?  I know the address is similar but that's a large building with many suites:


Atlantic Entertainment, Inc.
Bryn, Mark J.
444 Brickell Ave (Suite ???)
Miami, FL 33131 


Bang Bros. Entertainment, Inc.   
444 BRICKELL AVENUE
SUITE 1001
MIAMI FL 33131

LOL, Always 1.  That little monkey is a frog, and he has his hands around the throat of the Pelican that is trying to swallow him.  "Fighting while apparently on the the way out, hence the "never give up".

Are we talking about my avatar?   ::MonkeyHaHa:: I wish it was a lil monkey intead of a frog!

Yes, 100% successful!  Nite Janet!

Hey Klaas, sorry for the confusion.  It's the same attorney as BangBros, and Jeffery Greenberg. 

Here's the Sunbiz link:  http://tinyurl.com/54nxrh

Swell  ::MonkeyCool::  Still, we are talking about Jossy's involvement with a company back in 1993 and that company may have very well been legit. 

I agree, but a very large coincidence in a shared attorney, of all the attorneys in Florida!  There's gotta be a million!  Sometimes I find out just enough to be dangerous.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

But if my antenna really goes up, watch out!

Not sure how accurate this is:

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Miami/Mark-J-Bryn-p43786.aspx

http://www.lawyers.com/Florida/Miami/Bryn-and-Associates-P.A.-2674735-f.html

Bryn & Associates P.A. practices in the following areas of law:
Corporate and Business Organization/Transaction, Securities.
Firm Size: 3

Mark J. Bryn (Member) admitted to bar, 1978, Ohio; 1981, Florida. Education: Boston University (B.A., magna cum laude, 1975); Cleveland Marshall College of Law, Cleveland State University (J.D., magna cum laude, 1978); Georgetown Law Center, Georgetown University (LL.M.). Article Editor, Cleveland State Law Review, Boston University, 1977-1978. Senior Attorney and Assistant Branch Chief, Division of Corporate Finance, U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, 1978-1981. Member: The Florida Bar. Practice Areas: Corporate Organization; Business Organization; Corporate Transaction; Business Transaction; Securities. Email: Mark J. Bryn
——————————
Candice Gidney (Associate) born Miami, Florida, October 1, 1979; admitted to bar, 2005, New York; 2007, Florida. Education: Brandeis University (B.A., 2001); New York Law School (J.D., 2004). Formerly with: Wellspring Media; Sony Pictures TV; Genius Products; Warner Bros.; Sony Music Entertainment; The Weinstein Co.; Ferrante PLLC. Member: Dade County Bar (Member, Professionalism Committee) and American Bar Associations; New York City Bar (Member, 2004 and Board Member, 2005-2007, Entertainment Law Committee); Association of Women Lawyers (Member, Entertainment Law Committee). Practice Areas: Corporate Law; Business Transactions; Contracts. Email: Candice Gidney

Jessica L. Kone (Associate) born Baltimore, Maryland, April 16, 1981; admitted to bar, 2006, Florida. Education: Maryville College (B.A., 2002); University of Florida (J.D., 2005). Practice Areas: Corporate Law; Business Transactions; Contracts. Email: Jessica L. Kone

FYI - regarding the "corporationwiki".  I know for a fact there is at least one member of RU that is an active updater of Wikipedia files and has edited Wiki pages in this case to favor Joran.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE5D8163CF931A25752C1A96E948260

November 12, 1988
The G. Gordon Liddy Story Continues With Chapter 11
LEAD: A Miami-based security company co-founded by G. Gordon Liddy, the convicted Watergate burglar who became a television and movie villain, has sought protection from its creditors under the Federal Bankruptcy Code.

A Miami-based security company co-founded by G. Gordon Liddy, the convicted Watergate burglar who became a television and movie villain, has sought protection from its creditors under the Federal Bankruptcy Code.

International Security and Intelligence Inc., also known as G. Gordon Liddy & Associates, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on Tuesday in Federal Bankruptcy Court in Miami.

The company's services range from alerting corporate clients to the presence of listening devices to teaching courses on how to plant bugging devices, but most of its revenues come from providing armed guards in South Florida.

The two-year-old company has also advertised its ''Hurricane Force,'' which it describes as an anti-terrorist squad of former American, European and Israeli commandos that is capable of rescuing kidnapped executives.

Mr. Liddy owns 30 percent of the business, but associates say he has shown little interest in drawing a salary, holding office or running the company at its current modest size.

Mr. Liddy was not available yesterday for comment, the company's lawyer said, because he was in Canada pursuing his other, more successful, career as an actor. He was said to be filming an episode of the ABC television series ''MacGyver.,''

''Liddy does not even know the bankruptcy has occurred,'' said Mark J. Bryn, the securities lawyer with Reisman & Bryn in Miami who is representing International Security.

Can't believe an attorney is in Wiki.  (that's a reliable source, not!)  Looks like a search under registered agent at sunbiz.org. returns more records, however, essentially appears to be the same. 

Can you believe that these records display the FEIN of the company?  That's like the company's social!   Oh well.

FYI - regarding the "corporationwiki".  I know for a fact there is at least one member of RU that is an active updater of Wikipedia files and has edited Wiki pages in this case to favor Joran.

You're right about that, Klaas!  Wiki's a HOT MESS thanks to RU. 

Oh no, he ditn say that!  LOL

That's just tooo funny!

 BRYN, MARK JESQUIRE (Age 55)

Associated names:

 BRYN, JEAN 
 BRYN, MARK J ESQ
 BRYN, MARK JESQ
 BRYNN, MARK J
 MARK,  BRYN

Possible Employment / Business Associations:

 ADHAERO TECHNOLOGIES INC
 BB SPORTS INC Sporting Goods Stores and Bicycle Shops
 CHILD FOUNDATION INC Social Sciences and Humanities
 G GORDON LIDDY PRODUCTIONS INC
 ORTHOPAEDIC DEVELOPMENT LLC Land Subdividers and Developers, Except Cemeteries
 3 SPEED, INC
 ACCESS DEVELOPERS, INC
 AMERICA WHAT ARE WE, INC
 ARCHITECTURAL ART GLASS, INC
 BB SPORTS, INC  Offices At Pinecrest 7695 Southwest 104th St , MIAMI, FL 33156
Bay Harbor Dr  #4B, BAY HARBOR ISLANDS, FL 33154
Bay Harbor Dr , BAY HARBOR ISLANDS, FL 33154
Bay Harbor Dr  #413, BAY HARBOR ISLANDS, FL 33154
69th St  #8P, MIAMI, FL 33138
Bay Harbor Dr  #B4, BAY HARBOR ISLANDS, FL 33154
Treeline Ave , FORT MYERS, FL 33913
Biscayne Blvd  #2680, MIAMI, FL 33131
30th Ter , DORAL, FL 33122
48th St , MIAMI, FL 33155
Brickell Ave  #750, MIAMI, FL 33131
Brickell Ave  #415, MIAMI, FL 33131
Equine Ln , WELLINGTON, FL 33414
Brickell Ave  #1620, MIAMI, FL 33131
69th St , MIAMI, FL 33138
Brickell Ave  #2101, MIAMI, FL 33131
Brickell Ave  #21, MIAMI, FL 33131
Biscayne Blvd  #3599, MIAMI, FL 33131
69th St  #8P, MIAMI, FL 33138
Biscayne Blvd  #3599, MIAMI, FL 33131
Biscayne Blvd , MIAMI, FL 33131
Brickell Ave  #12, MIAMI, FL 33131
Bay Harbor Dr , BAY HARBOR ISLANDS, FL 33154
Biscayme Bv #3599, MIAMI, FL 33131
62nd St , MIAMI, FL 33138
Biscayne Bl #3599, MIAMI, FL 33131
Van Aken Blvd , CLEVELAND, OH 44120
Biscayne Tower #3599, MIAMI, FL 33131
Rivergate #750, MIAMI, FL 33131
C/O Irwin M Frost Brickell 1200, MIAMI, FL 33131   02/24/1953 374-0501
(305) 374-0501
(305) 663-3333
(305) 751-7381
(305) 864-6212  Possible Relatives:

MARKJBRYN, ESQUIRE
BRYN, KRISTINA BUTLER (Age 57)
BRYN, BUTLER K (Age 48)
BRYN, J
BRYN, KRISTINA L (Age 48)

Possible Roommates / Associates:

MANCINO, ALBERT E
DEERMINY, CARMEN
MARINI, RONALD ALBERT (Age 51)
PEREZBASHA, OMAIRA (Age 66)
CULVERHOUSE, HUGH FJRPAATTY (Age 89)
NUTTALL, SADELA
GILMAN, MARTIN B (Age 87)
BARBOUTH, ELSA E (Age 60)
FIELDS, MICHAEL
TORRES, ANTONIA (Age 55)
GOLDSTEIN, DAYNA B (Age 52)
DEPONTIS, GEORGE J (Age 62)
NUTTALL, JAMES S (Age 55)

For the record...I am still giving Jossy the benefit of the doubt with this company.  He has been very support of Natalee's family and without him they would have been lost in Aruba. He helped them when others would not. Having said that, being involved in the family business is still a possibility even if at a distance. My premise for asking about these businesses actually had more to do with Ernesto and not Jossy.  Things just took off from there. Sorry if I confused everyone.

I don't know if this is the same Mark J Bryn but the companies are interesting...

BRYN, MARK J

Possible Employment / Business Associations:

 ADHAERO TECHNOLOGIES, INC
 COMMUNICATION CONCEPTS & INVESTMENTS, INC
 CYAD CELLULAR DISTRIBUTORS, INC
 INTERNATIONAL DIALING SERVICES, INC  Park Of Commerce Blvd  #200, BOCA RATON, FL 33487
Park Of Commerce Blvd  #A-44, BOCA RATON, FL 33487         Possible Roommates / Associates:

LEVINSON, LAWRENCE 

Yes, ALOT of interesting companies.  Check out the Child Foundation with Byrn and Greenburg. 

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Miami/Jeffrey-M-Greenberg-p457177.aspx

Jeffrey M. Greenberg
Record Map Web Jeffrey M. Greenberg


10840 SW 113th Pl
Miami, FL 33176
Miami-Dade County
70 Companies at this address   

Jeffrey M. Greenberg
10840 SW 113th Pl
Miami, FL 33176
Miami-Dade County   

Loading


Related CompaniesCompany City State
1370 Venetian, LLC Miami Florida
Answerpro, LLC Miami Florida
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Chicken Strips Properties, LLC Miami Florida
Child Foundation, Inc. Miami Florida
Cookie.Com, LLC Miami Florida
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Fixyourcredit.Com, LLC Miami Florida
Gh Networks, LLC Miami Florida
Greenberg & Company, P.A. Miami Florida
Indrio Investors Group, LLC Miami Florida
Jerk Properties at Dadeland, LLC Miami Florida
Kh Apparel, LLC Miami Florida
Klma, LLC Miami Florida
Reality Kings, LLC Miami Florida
Rg Aviation, LLC Miami Florida
Safestandards.Org, Inc. Miami Florida
Sunshine Yacht, LLC Miami Florida
Tgp's, LLC Miami Florida
Vsal Worldwide, LLC Miami Florida
Wall of Death, LLC Miami Florida
 


Related PeoplePerson Company City State
Mark J. Bryn Child Foundation, Inc. Miami FL
Toni Garner Child Foundation, Inc. Miami FL
 


Registered AgentCompany Company Status City State
Chicken Strips Properties, LLC Active Miami Florida
Today Intermedia, LLC Active Miami Florida
1370 Venetian, LLC Active Miami Florida
Greenberg & Company, P.A. Active Miami Florida
Massi Mp, LLC Active Miami Florida
Indrio Investors Group, LLC Active Miami Florida
Cookie.Com, LLC Active Miami Florida
Klma, LLC Active Miami Florida
Backflipdomains, LLC Active Miami Florida
 

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Search.aspx?keywords=Jossy+Mansur

More info?  I am checking through it.  I am surprised to find alot of these names, Greenburg, Mansur and a few others also trace to something in Chicago.  Interesting stuff, but kinda scary too.  Something bigger than me going on here. ::MonkeyEek::

When Natalee first disappeared, I remember a broadcast that stated someone was following a car with Natalee in it. I think I remember it was a reporter, and it was a live broadcast. Does anyone else remember this?  If true, was this the car that was following De-pox?

Yes, if my memory is correct it was Jossy, very early on, right just when media coverage was beginning, saying that something was developing previously and ongoing and his reporter was tailing the car. I gathered from Jossy's stance, workding, eyes, he felt it was important.

then poof we heard nothing... perhaps from the media not following up for things were fast and fury then or maybe the reporter was following the Gardener or the car known to be following Depak et all.

I had the gut feeling it was followed through, important info found and either lost by the ALE or kept my Jossy for more leads or nice info to have, either was.

Thanks Sirensong....Chicago - I wonder if we can make any connection to Michael Posner?....

Been checking on E. Barry Mansur...he is the father of Austin, another associate/relative of Damilice, and his associates.

Anyone have Michael Posner's full name and any other aliases?  TIA

Good Morning

That was a reporter by the name of Hubert Tiel who works for Diario.

I wonder if JM has a role that would be like Godfather of the island and he is the one who keeps peace among all  of the various groups and businesses.  Even though I suspect him as Dirty Hand, I still recognize that he was helpful to Beth and Dave.  Dirty Hand wasn't at the event, he just knows about it and holds a key.

Murder Victims' Mothers Give To Those Who Helped
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8302/fieldsgd1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


AURORA, Colo. (CBS4) ― The mothers of two murder victims in Colorado are giving back to those who gave them justice.

District attorneys, police and lawmakers turned out for the third annual Javad Marshall-Fields and Vivian Wolfe Community Awards Celebration.

The couple was killed just days before Marshall-Fields was to testify in a murder trial. The killer, Sir Mario Owens, was sentenced to death Monday.

The victims' mothers held a ceremony Friday night in honor of those who helped them through the three month trial including Jeanne Smith, who serves as executive director of the Witness Protection Board for Colorado.

"When I see the families and all you've been through and what you are able to accomplish, I feel very insignificant," Smith said.

Beth Holloway, whose daughter Natalee has been missing in Aruba, was the guest speaker. She also received an award.

Holloway says her life is changed forever by the two Colorado moms, all giving each other support.

http://cbs4denver.com/local/javad.marshall.fields.2.754321.html

Good Morning *******,

Does anyone remember what the explanation for that was?  How could something like that event just vanish from existance?  Does anyone know where the reporter is now?

No explanation and he still works for Diario.

Aruba behind with payments coastguard21 Jun, 2008, 17:18 (GMT -04:00)

 WILLEMSTAD/DEN HAAG – Aruba still has to pay the Netherlands 7.9 million  guilders in coastguard payment arrears for the period of 1999-2002. The Netherlands has also not received the payments for 2007 yet, while the bill was sent early this year.

Defence-minister Eimert van Middelkoop (ChristenUnie) says that as answer on questions asked by the standing committees for Defence and for the Neth.Antillean- and Aruban Affairs. The committees say that the Neth.Antilles canceled all their payments for the coastguard.

Middelkoop writes that the coastguard is going to aim more for the control of human trafficking and illegal migration. The ministers of Justice of the three countries of the Kingdom have ordered that as part of judicial priorities for the coastguard. They did this because the Leeward- as well as the Windward Islands are being used as stepping stone for human trafficking purposes. Besides, the human trafficking was also mentioned in the recent report of the Scientific Research and Documentation Centre on Organized Crime and the Maintenance of Law and Order on St. Maarten.

In his letter to the Lower House, Minister Van Middelkoop also goes into the developments of the cross-border transportation of drugs to or from the Antilles. He says that there is an impression that qua method as well as route, the transporters of drugs use other routes than before. This is derived from among others the decrease in the number of drugs confiscated and the use of other vessels that the go-fasts, like regular fishermen boats and container ships.

ON the question which means the coastguard will use to set forth and intensify the cooperation process with France regarding the placing of radars on St. Maarten, Van Middelkoop reminds that a decision-making must first take place in the Minister Council for the Kingdom. “Possibilities to more operational cooperation with France, for example like placing some radar stations on the French part of St. Maarten and exchanging of information, will be considered.” The Netherlands brought the possibilities for cooperation in the field of people control and border traffic on St. Maarten to the attention of the French authorities in Paris during the bilateral judicial deliberation. “The good operational contacts between the coastguard and the French maintenance of law and order services in St. Maarten can be helpful as part of implementation questions”, said the minister.
 
 

Just tried to go to BFN and got the GODADDY website:

blogsfornatalee.com


This page is parked free, courtesy of GoDaddy.com

 ::MonkeyShocked::

WHOIS - blogsfornatalee.com
Email link to resultsGenerated by www.DNSstuff.com


Registrar:     GODADDY.COM, INC.
Status:        clientRenew Prohibited
Dates:         Created 23-jun-2005   Updated 20-jun-2007  Expires 23-jun-2008
DNS Servers:   NS10.BLUETRIDENT.NET  NS20.BLUETRIDENT.NET 

Posted by Debbie at the BFN backup forum:

The domain name for BFN has expired and I forgot to remind Ian to renew it. I have sent him an email and he should have it renewed as soon as he reads the email.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Debbie

http://bfnbackup.16.forumer.com/index.php

I feel like I need to say something, and I realize that it's not going to be popular with some of the monkeys.  But, I still need to say it because it is reality.

The Mansur family has been involved with drugs, money laundering, and gambling in the Caribbean for many years. The family is fabulously wealthy and they have all benefited from things that the dirty money has provided.  At this point, the family owns 60% of Aruba.  Some Mansurs do seem to have legitimate businesses, but the big family money and power has come from a very dark place.  JM and his relatives know where their money has come from and they are not saints.

The reason we are gathered on this forum is to seek Justice for a high school senior who disappeared on Aruba, but how many high school seniors here in America have overdosed on heroin or cocaine that has been smuggled into the US by members of the Mansur family?  There is nothing more tragic than the funeral of a promising young person who has overdosed on recreational drugs at a party. 

I do appreciate that Jossy has helped Beth and Dave, but this doesn't exonerate him or his family from the bigger picture.  Dirty Hand or not, JM knows exactly what happened that night because he is the most powerful man on that island and it's his business to know what happened that night. He has chosen not to reveal the information although he most likely has great sympathy for Beth and Dave.  I am also not aware of any Mansur money being spent for drug clinics or drug prevention programs.  We can certainly be appreciative of the small tokens that come our way, but let's not forget the bigger picture.

very well said SS and I agree 110%

great post!!!

hmmmmmmmmmm...NJ USA....isn't that where Daury got busted....just thinking out loud here Monkeys....

Destiny

IIRC...GoDaddy.com is the web hosting service that Google uses....

SS....Fabulous Post!

Brinkerhoff Ave. is a residential street that runs through both Palisades Park and Fort Lee.  It is in a primarily Korean neighborhood.  Brinkerhoff Ave. is a few miles from the shopping center in Secaucus (Hudson County) where Daury's mother was arrested.  Brinkerhoff Ave. is in Bergen County.  I haven't figured out where Daury was arrested, but it had to be in Hudson County because that is where he is in jail.

Someone posted that JM is Dirtyhand because the newspaper could go in all houses, and I really like that analogy.

and that makes it true?  there's too much tin foil hattery on this forum...seriously. i'm all for thinking outside the box, but some supporting documentation might be nice for a change of pace.  ::MonkeyNoNo::

Yesterday, at the Annual Caribbean Tourism Summit in DC they had their speaker conference.  The guy at the podium was talking about the lack of people in the audience and was begging everyone to move up to the front seats.  I captured some of the video that was being broadcast live on the website with my camera (without sound).   ::MonkeyHaHa::

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/dcconference.gif)

Here is the link to the website.  There will be something live again today:

http://www.actsdc.com/index.html

Unfortunately Shango is a speculation exercise at best. Many interpretations and nothing more.  There has been some indication that things are not as they should be, otherwise anything Shango related still remains speculation.  That is why Shango has it's own forum. Sometimes it overflows into this thread because it's related in various ways.  Just happens.

So what is price of an all inclusive vacation down to now in Aruba?

Always1 is referring to the clues in the Shango/Simian cryptic posts.  There is no documentation.  Many of us have spent countless hours trying to piece the puzzle together.  The entire thing is simply a guess and there is no documented evidence that the cryptic posts from three years ago are actually truth.

     Nightmare in Paradise  2005
By BRYAN BURROUGH

Looking Joran in the eyes, Croes lowered his voice.
"You know you're in a whale of shit if you don't tell the truth here," he said

The disappearance of beautiful, blonde teenager Natalee Holloway in Aruba last May became America's most tragic reality show. Sorting fact from rumor, with new information from the police, the author cuts to the heart of the case.
 
It had been a soccer mom's dream weekend, just the three women lying around the lake house at Hot Springs, Arkansas, sunbathing, relaxing, and luxuriating in the fact that, for three entire days, they were free of teenagers, dirty laundry, and housework. Now, on Monday, May 30, they were driving home in Beth Twitty's Chevy Tahoe, barreling east out of Memphis, looking to make it back to suburban Birmingham, Alabama, in time to get dinner on the table by nightfall.
A little after 11 a.m., Beth's cell phone rang. "Hello, this is Beth," she said in her soft southern accent. It was Jody Bearman, one of seven adults who had escorted a group of 124 students from Birmingham's Mountain Brook High School on a senior trip to the Caribbean island of Aruba. Twitty's 18-year-old daughter, Natalee, a hard-driving, straight-A student who was heading to the University of Alabama on a full scholarship, was on the trip. Beth's brow furrowed as she tried to digest Bearman's message: Natalee had not appeared in the Holiday Inn lobby for the return flight to Alabama.

No one, in fact, had seen her since the night before. Another mother might have surmised that her daughter was still out partying, maybe passed out in a hotel room. Not Beth Twitty. "I knew immediately that my daughter had been kidnapped in Aruba," she says today. "Natalee has never been late in her life."

Beth didn't panic. She became, in her words, "extremely focused." From her cell phone she called 911, telling the dispatcher her daughter had just been kidnapped and she was driving 110 miles an hour straight through Mississippi, and she wasn't stopping for anything. She called her husband, Natalee's stepfather, George "Jug" Twitty, and the F.B.I. By the time Beth reached Birmingham, a family friend had already arranged for a private jet. By five o'clock she was on board, along with Jug, the general manager of a Birmingham metals-industry facility, and two of Jug's longtime friends. They left a seat empty for the return trip—for Natalee. The jet landed at Aruba's Queen Beatrix International Airport around 10 p.m.

Thus began a long night's search that brought the Twitty family face-to-face with the Dutch teenager they would come to believe was responsible for the disappearance of their daughter, a search that within days would captivate America, or at least that sizable part of it that watches the nightly "justice shows" on cable television. Soon Beth Twitty would become a recognizable media fixture, giving interviews or meeting with everyone from Greta Van Susteren to Diane Sawyer to Dr. Phil to Condoleezza Rice. She has never wavered in her search for Natalee or in her belief that a boy named Joran van der Sloot knows her daughter's fate and that the corrupt police and government of Aruba have conspired to cover up the truth. The Twittys and others, including Bob Riley, the governor of Alabama, have called for American tourists to boycott the island.

Yet a deeper look at the investigation into Natalee Holloway's disappearance suggests the case is more complicated than it might appear on television. The Twitty family's obsessive quest has proved to be a national trauma for Aruba, a Dutch possession that has been repeatedly depicted in the U.S. media as overrun by drugs and crime. Stung by criticism they view as unwarranted, many Arubans, including a number who were once the Twittys' closest allies, have turned on the family, depicting them as Ugly Americans.

"They're killing Aruba," says Aruban businessman Charles Croes, a former ally. "That girl, Natalee, I wish she'd stayed home. I hope she's found alive there. Because no one would care. No one. The kid is just not worth all this trouble, this heartache. Is Natalee worth it? Is she?"

The Aruban police have reached a breaking point. In a wide-ranging interview, Gerold Dompig, the deputy police chief in charge of the case, says the biggest obstacle to solving it has been the Twitty family itself. Among other things, Dompig charges that pressure from the family sidetracked the investigation from the outset, forcing the premature arrests of the main suspects and destroying the best chance police had of gathering evidence to solve the case.

"They brought out their big guns on the very first day, and they started shooting," grouses Dompig, seated in a tiny office inside his neat, European-style police station. "They didn't understand the way things are done in our system. They didn't want to understand. They act like they came from a world where you can just crush people. It was very harmful to our investigation."

Dompig traces these difficulties to the first hours of his probe, when he met with the Twittys to assure them that everything possible would be done to find Natalee. Instead of gratitude, he says, he was met with angry threats. "Jug and his Alabama friends, they basically came out and said they would bring hell to our island if Natalee wasn't found—'burn it down' were the exact words. That's when I knew we were in serious trouble." (Jug Twitty denies this happened. "Where would he get that?" he asks. "We thought he was a nice guy.")

The Holloway case is now one of the most popular reality shows in America thanks to the hosts of cable television's nightly justice shows, chiefly Greta Van Susteren on Fox News, Rita Cosby on MSNBC, and Nancy Grace on CNN Headline News. The story has all the elements the justice shows adore: an innocent victim, missing or murdered; avenging loved ones; and a handsome, white-male suspect. Throw in a gaggle of luckless cops and colorful minor characters, set it all in an island paradise, and you have the kind of real-life mystery that keeps Americans glued to their sets.

And make no mistake: Natalee Holloway has been very, very good for cable television. Van Susteren all but moved her show to Aruba this summer and saw her ratings jump nearly 60 percent. The case helped Rita Cosby leap to No. 1 at MSNBC. At CNN Headline News, Holloway served to introduce viewers to the frightening former prosecutor Nancy Grace. Not to mention the endless hours of programming by Bill O'Reilly of Fox, and Dan Abrams and Joe Scarborough of MSNBC.

But not without flak. The coverage has been assailed from all sides, for crowding out real news and for de-emphasizing the searches for other missing persons, especially blacks, Latinos, men, and the poor. In August, Bob Costas bowed out of a stint to be the guest host on Larry King Live rather than pore over the case's details. On CNN, Anderson Cooper lambasted the coverage as overblown. The mainstream media have mostly demurred, sharpening the line between their definition of news and that of the justice shows, which don't hesitate to traffic in rumor and speculation.

How did we come to a moment when a single missing teenager draws as much television coverage as the war in Iraq? Matthew Felling, of the Center for Media and Public Affairs, a Washington think tank, traces the Missing White Women boomlet not to the JonBenét Ramsey case of 1996, as some have, but to a set of murders three years later. In 1999 three women—Carole Sund, her daughter, and a family friend—were found gruesomely murdered in Yosemite National Park. In the wake of the killings, Sund's parents established a foundation in Modesto, California, to publicize the plight of missing persons and offer rewards for information leading to the arrest of violent criminals.

The foundation might have faded into obscurity but for the disappearance in May 2001 of former Washington intern Chandra Levy. The case initially attracted scant media attention outside of Levy's hometown, which happened to be Modesto. Brought into the case, the Sund/Carrington foundation mobilized a team of publicists who invented a new kind of grassroots effort: the missing-person campaign. Whereas JonBenét Ramsey's parents zealously avoided the press, Chandra Levy's family, with the help of the Sund/Carrington publicists, appeared for regular press conferences in their driveway, furnished quotes with an eye toward media deadlines, and even doled out bits of home movies so that cable producers would always have new footage to air. Levy's murder was never solved—even though her body was found a year later—but the press coverage succeeded in entangling Congressman Gary Condit, and made the case headline news for much of 2001.

By then cable producers had discovered that Missing White Women were ratings gold. The phenomenon is "now an established genre of news, much the way that the O. J. Simpson case enshrined the celebrity murder case as a whole genre," says Felling. "I don't think that's likely to change anytime soon." Today the reigning princess remains Natalee Holloway. For that, cable television can thank Beth Twitty, who has proved willing to do almost anything to find her daughter.

One afternoon I reach Beth on her cell phone. "I'm in Columbus, Ohio, on a secret mission," she says. "I'm putting together another strike against Aruba. I tell you, Bryan, those people down there, they'll never know what hit them. They should never have messed with me."

Beth must be very tired; one can only imagine the stress she is under. Back in Mountain Brook, the Twitty home, a modest brick split-level in Birmingham's most fashionable suburb, has been turned into a war room. Neat stacks of mail line the dining-room floor, most of it unsolicited letters of sympathy. The mail is sorted each morning in a friend's basement; every sender receives a response card Beth has drafted. One of her friends, Carol Standifer, walks me through the operation, our discussion interrupted only by the incessant ringing of the kitchen phone. A machine answers, allowing the caller's message to echo through the house.

By and by Beth walks in, dressed in faded blue jeans, and takes a seat on the living-room floor. "Somebody said it's time to start cleaning it all up," she says, glancing into the dining room, "but I said, 'No, I don't think so. Not yet.'" She has lost count of how many interviews she has given—it's in the hundreds—and she has repeated the same things so many times her answers have an artificial quality. Until all this, the Twittys had led an unremarkable suburban life. Raised in Arkansas, Beth married a State Farm employee named Dave Holloway and, after a move to Jackson, Mississippi, was divorced in 1993. She raised Natalee and her brother, Matt, as a single mother until marrying Jug Twitty in 2000 and moving to Mountain Brook, where she is a special-education teacher in an elementary school. Beth became part of Jug's social group of hunting buddies and their wives, and today the Twittys' support network consists of seven couples who call themselves "the Fabulous Seven." Most have been to Aruba multiple times. All spend their off-hours sorting mail and returning calls.

According to her mother, Natalee was a typical American teenager, more driven than most, maybe, a fixture on Mountain Brook High's dance team who, Beth insists, never drank, never had a boyfriend, and never had sex. She is emphatic about this. Left unsaid is the assumption that this gave Natalee little experience in the kind of tequila-fueled revelry for which Aruba is famous. "Natalee was very smart, but," Beth acknowledges, "very naïve."

Still, Beth had no doubts about letting her daughter go on the Aruba trip. It was something of a tradition at Mountain Brook High School, and Jug's son, George, had been several years earlier. On Thursday, May 26, Beth dropped Natalee at a friend's house at four a.m. for the flight to Aruba. She promised to pick her up at the airport the following Monday night. It was the last time she saw her daughter.

When the Twittys' private jet arrived in Aruba that first night, it was dark. The group piled into two vans driven by workers from Aruba's general-aviation office, a ramshackle trailer at the back of the airport. The vans wound their way through the quiet streets of the capital, Oranjestad, and made for the island's northwestern corner, where dozens of resorts sprawl along the white-sand beach.

While its main business is tourism—72 percent of visitors are American—Aruba is not a typical Third World Caribbean island. Eighteen miles off the coast of Venezuela, Aruba has a multi-racial population of 70,000. Its infrastructure is well developed, its streets are clean, and the culture has been thoroughly Americanized since Standard Oil built what was then one of the world's largest refineries, at the island's southeastern tip, in 1924. There are McDonald's, Pizza Huts, Taco Bells, and a Hooters. While palm trees have been planted in the tourist areas, the climate is arid, and pencil-like cacti line the inland roads.

At the Holiday Inn, Beth and Jug found another of the senior-trip escorts, a teacher named Paul Lilly, waiting with the only American official Lilly had found, a Drug Enforcement Administration agent. They had no news of Natalee's whereabouts. From all indications, she had never returned to her hotel the night before; her passport and luggage lay where she had placed them in preparation for the return flight to Alabama. She had last been seen, around midnight, at a bar and grill called Carlos 'n Charlie's. Some of her fellow students had noticed her talking with a tall Dutch teenager, and were under the impression she had left with him. The day before, Jug's nephew Thomas had played poker with the young man at the Holiday Inn's casino and thought his name was Joran something.

Beth took a hotel employee aside and described him. "She knew exactly who he was: Joran van der Sloot," Beth remembers. "And then she said—these were her exact words—'He tends to prey upon young female tourists.'"

Within minutes everyone headed to Carlos 'n Charlie's. Inside, the men fanned out and began asking questions. Beth showed around a photo of Natalee, but no one recognized her. Frustrated, the Americans returned to the Holiday Inn to regroup.

By now they had been joined by Charles Croes, a wealthy Aruban who owned a cellular-phone rental company on the island. According to Croes, who was summoned to meet Beth in a darkened gas-station parking lot, Natalee had made a cell-phone call to an American number, and Beth was curious to know to whom. It turned out to have been an accidental call to a friend.

They decided to split up. The Twittys' friends wandered the beach behind the hotel, showing Natalee's photo to anyone they encountered. Beth and Jug headed upstairs; they wanted to see what Joran van der Sloot looked like, and the casino manager offered to find a video of his poker game the day before. When he did, Beth memorized everything about him: the close-cropped hair, the pimply face, the sloe eyes. Croes, meanwhile, drove north up the beach road and, just below the lighthouse, found a group of teenagers drinking cheap wine. They knew Joran, and two volunteered to lead Croes to his home, in the nearby town of Noord. Five minutes later Croes was at the modest ranch-style house, down an unpaved alley and behind a chest-high wall. One of the airport workers, sitting beside him, telephoned the Holiday Inn.

It was time to bring in the Aruban police. The main group of Twitty-family members and friends, now numbering a dozen, met Croes at the police station in Noord. Two uniformed officers agreed to accompany them to the van der Sloot residence. At the house, Beth waited in the van while the officers sounded the patrol car's siren. Across the neighborhood, lights blinked on. There was no movement inside the van der Sloot home. The officers sounded the siren once more. Staring blearily, people began emerging into their yards. After a few minutes, a man in his early 50s came outside. This was Paulus van der Sloot, Joran's father.

Beth watched as the officers spoke to him. She saw van der Sloot take a cellular phone from his front pocket and make a call. He then told police Joran was out gambling, at the Wyndham resort's casino. Van der Sloot climbed into the police car, and the group headed back into the night. At the Wyndham, just down from the Holiday Inn, the group again fanned out in search of Joran. Beth walked behind Paulus, watching him closely. There was no sign of his son. Van der Sloot flipped out his phone and made another call. When he hung up, he said, "He's at home now."

The group returned to the van der Sloot home. Joran and a friend, a young Surinamese man named Deepak Kalpoe, were waiting in the driveway. The two policemen took the two of them aside. Jug Twitty and his two friends stood by as Joran answered questions. At first he denied any knowledge of Natalee, insisting he didn't even know the name. Twitty began to grow impatient. "Don't say you don't know who she is," Jug said. "We have eyewitnesses who saw you both in the car."

"Just tell us where she is," one of the Alabama men snapped.

"Don't be so rude," Paulus van der Sloot responded. "This is not America. You can't act like that."

Sensing the increasing tension, Croes decided to try to mediate. "So I went over to the father and the police and I said, 'Is it O.K. if I talk to him?'" he says. "[The policemen said,] 'Sure, we're not even a part of this yet. She can't be considered missing for 48 hours.'"

Looking Joran in the eyes, Croes lowered his voice. "You know you're in a whale of shit if you don't tell the truth here," he said.

"I am telling the truth," Joran said.

"Why don't you tell me what happened?" Croes said.

Joran considered this for a moment, then began talking. He said he had met Natalee in the Holiday Inn's casino Sunday afternoon. In the early evening she asked him to join her later at Carlos 'n Charlie's. He declined, saying it would be dead on a Sunday. A little before 11 he headed home with his father, who had picked him up at a McDonald's. At home, Joran said, he had second thoughts. He called Deepak Kalpoe, who drove over with his younger brother, Satish, to get him.

"So I snuck out of my house and went over to see her," he said. "She came on to me huge. Dancing suggestively. Like a slut. I did belly shots on her, on the bar. [Eventually she said,] 'Could you take me home?' So we left." When they piled into Deepak Kalpoe's silver Nissan, Joran said, Natalee seemed nonplussed to find the two Kalpoe brothers, who are black, sitting in the front.

"What are these guys, your slaves?" she supposedly asked Joran. By all accounts, Natalee was very drunk.

"What happened then?" Croes asked.

"We took her back to the Holiday Inn, to the front door. When she got out of the car, she stumbled and fell. I went to help her, but she got up and walked on through the lobby." It was the last time, Joran insisted, that he had seen Natalee.

"O.K.," Croes said. "Is that the truth?"

"Yes."

"That's the truth? Look, Joran, you need to be truthful with me. You need to tell me everything. Where'd you go?"

Croes could see Joran's mind working. Finally, he said, "We didn't go directly to the Holiday Inn. She wanted us to drive around. The girl was crazy. She was just crazy." According to Croes, Joran said Natalee then told him three things as they drove north past the Holiday Inn: that her mother was "like Hitler," that she was a virgin, and that she was a lesbian. She begged him to take her to a beach where she had heard she could see sharks, but Joran told her that was a local myth. She told him she wanted to have sex.

"Did you have sex with her?" Croes asked.

"Yeah," Joran said. "She gave me a blow job."

"Where'd that happen?"

"In the backseat of the car."

"So where'd you take her?"

"I took her to the lighthouse. For a while. We didn't get out."

According to Croes, Joran said that Deepak was increasingly uncomfortable at the lighthouse, fearful that Natalee would "make a mess" in the car, presumably by vomiting. Croes could feel Joran opening up; he appeared to be on the verge of an admission. Then, from the driveway, the voice of one of the Alabama men rose: "Well, you Aruban assholes better get your act together, and now!" (Jug Twitty, while acknowledging his group's impatience, denies the word "asshole" was used.)

Joran's head turned. "That's it," Paulus said. "This is no good." The decision was made that the entire group would return to the Holiday Inn, where Joran promised he would point out a security guard who had helped Natalee. Once there, however, he was unable to do so. The atmosphere again grew heated, as Jug Twitty demanded to know what happened to his stepdaughter. "Don't tell them anything," Deepak Kalpoe told Joran. "You don't have to tell them anything."

By now it was almost five o'clock in the morning. The policemen told Beth to wait at her hotel. A detective would come by and see her at eight. Detective Dennis Jacobs arrived at 8:15, took down Natalee's description, and led Beth to the police station. Beth sat in the lobby for three hours until Jacobs spoke to her again. She rose, eager to pour out everything she had learned. Suddenly, Jacobs said, "We won't be needing you." Beth stood there, stunned, uncertain what to do. After a moment she walked outside, where she ran into the first of the hundreds of television crews she would soon encounter. "That was the moment," she says today, "that I realized we were in serious trouble."

Relations between the desperate Twittys and the Aruban police had gotten off to an atrocious start and never recovered. When Beth and Jug returned to the police station the next morning, they found Officer Jacobs's behavior cavalier in the extreme. "Wait, I haven't had my Frosted Flakes, and I haven't shaved yet," he said as they were about to give him their statement. What the Twittys didn't yet understand was that missing tourists are hardly unusual in Aruba. Barely a week goes by without an American failing to return to his or her cruise ship, or deciding to stay a little longer in paradise. Almost all turn up within days. When a tourist goes missing, the last thing the police expect is a murder.

The Twittys, in turn, struck the Aruban police as rude, arrogant, and demanding. "I didn't really know who I was dealing with; I thought it was just a regular American family," recalls Dompig, an F.B.I.-trained veteran who worked as a police officer for 10 years in the Netherlands. When he promised to mobilize every available resource to find Natalee, "Beth was wonderful, really understanding," Dompig says. "She asked us to do everything possible, as any mother would. But Jug and the other guys, they started saying they didn't trust us, because we're not capable, and they've been here 48 hours! You know, 'What kind of show are you running here?' These are the words they used to try and scare me. They were trying to intimidate me."

In those tumultuous first days, Beth's most valuable allies were Julia Renfro, the 37-year-old American-born editor of an English-language daily, Aruba Today, and one of her reporters, Angela Munzenhofer, a tough-talking American whose family runs one of the island's popular restaurants. When Beth walked into the paper's office the day after she arrived, Renfro, a statuesque blonde, stopped the presses to run a front-page photograph of Natalee. Renfro and Munzenhofer both have children, and they identified with Beth's desperation; the three women became inseparable. The first flyers posted around the island carried two numbers people could call with tips: Renfro's and Munzenhofer's cell phones. "At the beginning, I was the one Beth trusted," says Munzenhofer. "She called me her angel. We were with them day and night. We weren't reporters. We were family. Beth told us that."

Wednesday morning, as Beth gave her statement to police, Renfro and Munzenhofer met in the Holiday Inn's lobby to organize the first search teams. After a series of radio announcements, a hundred tourists showed up, along with a smattering of Arubans and policemen. Jan van der Straaten, the crusty Dutch police superintendent who would end up working the case, was not happy. "Van der Straaten walks up and tells me, 'You can't do this,'" Renfro recalls. "I said, 'Yes I can. I'm going to find this girl.' He told me she wasn't even considered 'missing' for 48 hours. In fact, he told me just to go to Ladies' Night at Carlos 'n Charlie's that night, that she would probably show up there. Anyway, he talked to the group. And his message was, he asked us not to cause any traffic problems. I just wanted to fall out of my pants I was so mad."

At dusk the searchers returned to their hotel rooms, having found no sign of Natalee. Then, early the next evening, Munzenhofer took an urgent call from a source, who said Natalee was staying in a downtown house with certain unnamed "friends" who wanted to "protect" her. But, the source went on, her friends had agreed to turn her over to the family for $4,000—a quasi-ransom. Renfro relayed the message to Beth, and within an hour everyone had met at the Buccaneer, the restaurant Munzenhofer's family owns. Jug had a thousand dollars, and the Munzenhofers volunteered to donate the other $3,000 from the cash register.

By now more of "the Fabulous Seven" had arrived. Eight men were in the group, and Munzenhofer's husband took them to scout the downtown house where Natalee was supposed to be. It turned out to be what Arubans call a choller house—a crack house. When the men returned, everyone headed downtown to stake it out. "We were scared—scared to death," Renfro recalls. "We didn't know these people, how dangerous they were, whether they had guns and knives. So we called the cops. It took them 45 minutes to come a quarter-mile. They went in and looked around." Natalee wasn't there. The group spent the rest of the evening searching the neighborhood, and by midnight Renfro realized she had missed all her deadlines. "The print guys—I don't know what happened—they decided to print the previous day's paper again," she remembers.

At 10 o'clock the next morning and every morning for the next two weeks Renfro and Munzenhofer organized search parties. They traipsed through cactus-strewn vacant lots and windswept beaches from the Holiday Inn, north past the Marriott, all the way to the lighthouse at the island's northwestern tip. One morning Munzenhofer took Jug Twitty to the island's Dutch military base to request help from the Dutch Marines, who joined the search with helicopters and four-wheel-drive vehicles. Another day the justice minister gave all Aruban government employees the day off to join the search. But no one returned with anything other than sunburn.

The first American cable crew—MSNBC—arrived on Friday, following the first correspondent to the island, from the syndicated show A Current Affair. That night Renfro was working late when she received a call from a source—a former policeman—who had just heard on police radio that an American girl matching Natalee's description had been seen stepping into a Kia sedan outside an ATM in Oranjestad. Immediately the newspaper office emptied; at least 10 cars, packed with staffers and Alabamans, fanned out across the downtown area, looking for the car. When it was sighted, Renfro used cell phones to orchestrate a covert pursuit. A half-dozen cars followed the Kia for 15 minutes until it parked outside a house just blocks from the newspaper office. Renfro could just make out a man and two women, one of them blonde, inside the car.

They watched the car for 15 minutes before one of Renfro's friends, a volunteer named Carlos, took the initiative, walked to the car, and exchanged words with the driver, who was puffing on a marijuana cigarette. "Carlos came back and said, 'I don't think it's her; she was too happy,'" Renfro recalls. "We said, 'Come on! She's on drugs! Of course she's happy.' [He said,] 'No, she's too heavy.' [We said,] 'Maybe she gained weight!' [He said,] 'But there's a baby in the car.'"

As they discussed what to do, the Kia drove off. The Aruba Today caravan followed it to another house, where the three of them remained in the car. Forty minutes went by. Police were called. Finally, another volunteer, named O.J., pulled his Bronco in front of the car. When he got out, the driver emerged with what appeared to be a baseball bat and took a swing at O.J., who dived into his car and drove off. One of the women ran inside the house with the infant, but the Kia continued on, eventually stopping at a convenience store.

Soon the police appeared and took the driver and the other girl into custody. By the time the patrol car reached a nearby police station, a crowd of 100 onlookers, including camera crews from A Current Affair and MSNBC, were waiting. Renfro's spirits rose when, listening to the police radio, she heard an officer say he was "98 percent" sure the blonde girl was Natalee.

Beth and Jug were called. One of the Alabamans emerged from the crowd, gave Renfro a bear hug, and shoved $10,000 in reward money at her. Renfro declined it. In minutes the Twittys appeared and entered the station. When they returned outside, their faces were impassive. The girl turned out to be an American woman on extended vacation. "It was the saddest moment of my life," Renfro says.

Two days later the first arrests were made.

When the police first questioned Joran and the Kalpoe brothers, they told of dropping Natalee off at the Holiday Inn. They mentioned seeing a security guard approach her, so that Sunday the police detained two local men who were former hotel security guards. Beth, who had focused on Joran and the Kalpoes from the outset, angrily told the police they were arresting the wrong men. The deputy chief, Gerold Dompig, insists today that police considered the three teenagers suspects from the outset; in fact, he hints that the boys' phones were tapped as part of a surveillance as early as that first weekend.

When Beth began giving television interviews the following week, she suggested that the police were protecting the van der Sloots because they were a prominent family. They are hardly that. Paulus has been a minor official in the Aruban justice department; he has trained to be a judge, but isn't one yet. Joran was a high-school soccer star and an honor student; he was planning to attend Saint Leo University, near Tampa, Florida, in the fall. By Wednesday, June 8, hints of a cover-up had grown so widespread that the Aruban prime minister, Nelson Oduber, released a statement denying it.

Dutch criminal investigations differ from American ones in small but important ways. By and large, Dutch detectives do not speak to journalists, on or off the record. In the Holloway case, this created an information vacuum that not only irritated an already suspicious American press but also led to rumor and speculation on the justice shows. Moreover, plea bargaining does not exist under the Dutch system. Whereas an American detective might arrest all three teenagers and cut a deal with one to squeal on the others, this isn't an option in Aruba.

Aruban investigations tend to move at what can seem a leisurely pace. "First, we investigate around [suspects]. We try to establish the facts, look at their backgrounds," says Dompig. "We want to keep them on the outside, where we can watch them, listen to their calls, see what they're saying to each other. If we have to pick them up, we can't look at them, other than in a cell."

But the pressure to make an arrest—any arrest—was overwhelming. "The pressure was so … so … just, you could feel it on a daily basis: 'What is the press saying today? What is Beth saying today?'" says Dompig. "The Aruban government is very image-conscious. America is basically our bread and butter. The government, well, everyone was on our case. They wanted the case solved as soon as possible. And then you had the Aruban Hotel [and Tourism] Association, which is a very powerful group, that started putting pressure. 'Guys, what about the tourism! The jobs in the hotels!' Imagine how a law-enforcement team functions with all this. Imagine that pressure! We got calls all the way up to the White House! They called the prime minister!"

Reluctantly, Dompig gave the go-ahead for the arrest of Joran and the Kalpoe brothers on Thursday, June 9. Joran emerged from his house with a blue-and-green towel wrapped around his head. After initial questioning, he was taken into custody. Today, Dompig says pressure from the Twittys, the media, and his own government forced police to prematurely make the arrest. "Yes, yes, yes," he says. "Under normal circumstances, we would have taken much more time to monitor them. We would have had much more evidence had we waited."

Dompig expected the arrests would please the Twittys. They didn't. Beth and Jug were intent on keeping the pressure on. "It was like nothing could satisfy them—nothing," Dompig gripes. "Basically, Jug wanted us to come over and beat a confession out of these boys. We couldn't do that. These guys are hardheaded, especially Joran. We couldn't get a confession."

Under questioning, however, Joran did change his story. Instead of leaving Natalee at the Holiday Inn, he now said, the Kalpoes had dropped him and Natalee off at the beach beside the Marriott, a half-mile north of the Holiday Inn; the area is a lovers' lane of sorts. He said Natalee was so drunk she was drifting in and out of consciousness. Joran said he left her at the beach and walked home. During weeks of questioning, the Kalpoes backed up his new story.

As the Twittys' desperation grew, On the Record, Greta Van Susteren's show, became the preferred outlet for their frustrations. Beth's nightly appearances, however, created tension among her new friends. "Everything changed when Greta came," says Angela Munzenhofer. "All you heard [Beth say] was Greta, Greta, Greta."

"The way Beth talked to us, the local press, was totally different—you know: 'We're getting so much help,' how wonderful everyone was being, how helpful," says another Aruba Today reporter, Dilma Arends, "but at night, on television, we would hear a totally different person, how no one was helping her at all."

"She was saying a lot of this on Fox, on Greta, and most of the island doesn't get Fox," says Julia Renfro. "But I got DVDs sent to me from friends in the States, and I saw her there. She was totally different."

"That's how she is," says Arends. "She's a two-faced woman."

"We tried to avoid going on those shows," says Renfro.

"Because they wanted lies," says Munzenhofer.

"Theories," explains Arends. "'What is your take? What is your take?' We're reporters. We're not going to talk about theories."

The tensions came to a head in the wake of an appearance Renfro made on the Van Susteren show. "Nobody knows this, but the family were the ones determining who goes on the shows," she says. "It was all them." That night, when Van Susteren asked about Joran, Renfro described the teenager as an excellent student with a good reputation and "an idol for the younger kids" at school. The next day Renfro was in the Marriott lobby, holding her baby daughter, when she saw Beth and Jug.

When she went to give Beth a hug, "Jug attacked me, verbally and physically," Renfro recalls. "He pushed me! I'm holding a sleeping baby. He just starts screaming and yelling. Words you can't print. 'f*** you! Get the f*** away from my wife! I never want to see you again.' I was just so stunned. I had put my heart and soul into finding their girl." Afterward, a Fox producer explained that the Twittys were furious over her comments on the Van Susteren show. Renfro was so shaken she filed a complaint with the police against Jug Twitty. (Jug acknowledges losing his temper and cursing at Renfro, but denies pushing her.)

Renfro attempted a reconciliation with Beth, going as far as suggesting that the Twittys were trying to "protect" her from local criticism by pushing her away. "Beth said, 'That's the blondest thing I've ever heard,'" says Renfro, a blonde. "After that, I just said, 'I can't deal with this person anymore.'" Beth says she doesn't recall any pushing incident. Of Renfro, Beth says only, "She's a witch."

Both Charles Croes and Angela Munzenhofer say they broke with the Twittys after angry confrontations with Jug. They, and many other Arubans, have since turned on the family, and viciously. The Aruba Today staff, once the Twittys' most fervent supporters, has morphed into the unofficial clearinghouse for everything anti-Twitty.

"We met Beth that first day, and Beth was like glue to us for about a month," Munzenhofer says. "But then we just had to let her go, because I did not agree with what she was saying. She was lying. She got caught in too many lies. I understand it. She's a grieving mother. I'm not against Beth. But, come on, her girl's not a virgin. The girl's an alcoholic. She was drinking.… I have personally talked to people who say Natalee bought drugs. I've seen the photo of that girl chugging from a bottle of 151 [rum].… Beth, I told her, you have to look at different answers. Drug dealers. Taxi drivers. Ex-boyfriends. But she looked at one place only: Joran."

It's true that some of Beth's stories don't hold up. Before I went to Aruba, she told me that the Kalpoe family had been embroiled in the odd death of a former maid, and that Mrs. Kalpoe had been detained; it turned out the case had involved another family. She also told me that a person on the island had fathered an illegitimate child with a friend's wife, and that the friend had committed suicide. That, too, does not appear to be true.

"People understand what Beth is going through; they do," Julia Renfro told me. "But it's no excuse for misconstruing all the facts. She's hurt a lot of people down here. A lot of people."

By the end of June, with both Joran and the Kalpoe brothers in custody for three weeks, it appeared the case was nearing a climax. Rumors flew that charges were imminent. On Friday, July 1, the government spokesman Ruben Trapenberg said they could come as early as Monday. On Sunday, police were seen walking with Joran on the beach north of the Marriott as he guided them through what he said happened that night. Expectations were soaring Monday morning when a clerk stepped outside the courthouse in Oranjestad and read an announcement to American reporters and cameramen. A gasp shot through the crowd when she came to the point: Not only were none of the three teenagers being charged, the two brothers were being released, indicating that the judge had found insufficient evidence to justify their further detention. Joran was ordered held without charges another 60 days.

The Twittys were outraged. Beth tearfully denounced the judge's decision as a travesty, terming the Kalpoe brothers "criminals." She called on the nations of the world to reject any efforts they might make to flee the country. All over television, the cable hosts piled on, endlessly castigating the Aruban justice system. For many Arubans, this was the last straw. The next afternoon a former government minister named John Merryweather helped organize a demonstration in front of the courthouse to protest the media's depiction of Aruba.

One of the Kalpoes' attorneys, meanwhile, attacked Beth's statements as "prejudicial, inflammatory, libelous, and totally outrageous." Caught off guard, Beth went back before the cameras at the end of the week and apologized "to the Aruban people and to the Aruban authorities if I or my family have offended you in any way."

But the damage was done. "That woman needs help," an angry John Merryweather told me as we sat on his terrace. "This is just a concerted attack on Aruba. A terrorist attack. Why blame the whole island, a whole country, for something that is out of our control? She attacks our justice system? What about yours? JonBenét. Was that ever solved? Michael Jackson—he gets off. O.J. That's American justice, and the woman is criticizing us?"

By mid-July, with Joran still languishing in the San Nicolas jail, undergoing daily questioning by Aruban, Dutch, and F.B.I. officials, a motley crowd of television producers, search teams, private eyes, and beach bums each determined to solve the case. One was Arthur Wood, a retired Secret Service agent who lives outside Ocala, Florida, and who spent his evenings glued to the Holloway coverage. In mid-June, Wood e-mailed some thoughts to Jossy Mansur, managing editor of the Aruban newspaper El Diario, who had latched onto the Twitty bandwagon as part of his own feud with the Aruban government. Eager to develop leads, Mansur invited Wood to Aruba, and put him on his payroll. 

Wood began chatting up photographers, stringers, and reporters. The most intriguing lead, he decided, was a rumor that one of the Kalpoe brothers had confessed to killing Natalee—sort of—to a fellow prisoner while in the Aruban jail. The prisoner had heard that a relative's gardener, named Cumpa, had seen Joran and the Kalpoes burying Natalee's body in a vacant lot near the Marriott. When the Kalpoe brother was told the story, he supposedly went ashen and flipped over the dominoes they were playing with. Wood spent most of July tracking the elusive Cumpa. There were stories that he had fled to Venezuela, that he had disappeared, that he might have been killed.

The Mansur "investigative team," including Wood, Eduardo Mansur, and other Mansur employees and family friends, began holding nightly strategy sessions at the team's de facto headquarters: Hooters. One night they were inside poring over rumors when a Mansur cousin's teenage son suddenly blurted out, "I know Cumpa! He's my uncle's gardener!"

The boy hopped in Eduardo Mansur's truck and led Wood to a large seaside home owned by Jossy Mansur's cousin Eric Mansur, a wealthy importer. Wood found Cumpa, whose name turned out to be Carlos, in the yard. "He tells me that on that night, May 30, he couldn't sleep," Wood recalls. "It was 2:30 and it was so hot—he didn't have air-conditioning—he said, 'I got up, I told my wife I'm going to my boss's house,'" which was air-conditioned.

According to Carlos, while driving to Eric Mansur's home a little before three that morning, he took a shortcut, a dirt road through a vacant lot beside the Marriott. To his surprise, he found a car blocking the road. Beside the car were two large mounds of dirt. When he peered into the car, Carlos said, he recognized Joran and the Kalpoes. He said they covered their faces. He then drove on.

Carlos reluctantly climbed into Wood's truck and allowed himself to be driven to police headquarters. He disappeared inside for four hours.

Three days later, a crowd of reporters gathered in the vacant lot by the Marriott to watch the police begin draining a pond near where the gardener, as he came to be known, claimed he had seen Joran and the Kalpoes digging. The effort quickly degenerated into farce. The first pumper truck, reportedly supplied by the Mansur family, bogged down and died. Then reporters, trying to get a better view of the pond, twice broke a water main. When the pond was empty, police found nothing at the bottom but trash. Gerold Dompig ended up discounting everything the gardener had said. "The gardener['s story]," he says, "was a concoction."

The pond episode, however, gave Beth the cover she needed to begin a simultaneous excavation at a landfill behind the airport. The family had hired its own private investigator, an Atlanta man named T. J. Ward, who like Art Wood was soon a staple of the nightly talk shows; in fact, the two became rivals and began sniping at each other. Wood had been sent to interview a homeless man named Poom Poom, who was hounding police with a tale of seeing a woman's body in the landfill. Beth wasn't sure whether to believe the story until T. J. Ward announced Poom Poom had passed a lie-detector test. "T.J. looked me in the face and said, 'Beth, he's telling the truth,'" Beth says. "That's what sent all the people to the dump!" It took weeks for the search teams to decide there was no body there, though a team of Texas volunteers briefly renewed the search in late October.

The gardener and Poom Poom episodes were followed by the jogger—a story made the rounds in August that a late-night jogger had seen Joran and the Kalpoes digging near the same spot the gardener had identified. Police made a public appeal for the man to contact them, and he eventually did. Unfortunately, "the jogger had some problems," Art Wood says, sighing. "He was a convicted sex offender. Apparently he was a murderer or rapist or something." Gerold Dompig confirms this story. He says neither the jogger nor his story panned out in any way.

Every day in July and August seemed to bring a new dead end. One time a park ranger found on a beach a piece of duct tape attached to several human hairs; a test suggested the DNA from the hair wasn't Natalee's. Another day hundreds of tourists gathered behind the Marriott to watch volunteers drag out a barrel that had been seen in the ocean. It was empty. Nothing was too outlandish to investigate. The Dutch military brought in three F-16s that flew over the island using infra-red photography in an effort to identify a grave. They, too, came up with nothing.

Throughout the summerlong circus, the Twittys remained at the Holiday Inn and later at the Wyndham, whose owners gave them use of the hotel's Presidential Suite. During the day they emerged to pass out prayer cards and photos of Natalee, and at night they sat for interviews. One afternoon Beth was walking through Noord, handing out prayer cards with Greta Van Susteren, when she realized she was near the van der Sloot home. She walked to the gate, thinking she would leave a card. That's when she saw a pair of legs—it was Paulus—in the bushes. She called for him to come out. As he did, his wife, Anita, appeared at the front door, and the couple invited Beth inside for what became a tense 90-minute meeting.

In the first half-hour, Beth listened as Joran's parents lavished praise on their son, though they eventually admitted they had been having trouble with him. According to Beth, the van der Sloots acknowledged that Joran had been seeing a psychiatrist. "Anita told me that," Beth says. "She was saying they were beginning to have trouble with Joran [for a] defiant attitude. The father acknowledged they could not control him. He would sneak out, go gambling, in the pre-dawn hours. They had no control over him."

At one point, Beth decided to press. "I told Paulus van der Sloot that he was responsible for Aruba being trapped in hell; until he came forward, I told him, his country would continue to be trapped in perpetual hell," she recalls. Paulus, while insisting he could remember almost nothing of the night Natalee disappeared, began to sweat profusely. "These beads of sweat were rolling down from his head onto the kitchen table," Beth remembers. "Beginning in the last 30 minutes, Anita had to get up and go get a kitchen towel. The sweat was pooling on the table. She had to pat him down." (The van der Sloots' attorney didn't return phone calls for comment.)

On August 8, Beth forced a similar confrontation on Deepak Kalpoe, who was working at a downtown Internet café. She entered with an Alabama friend and an MSNBC film crew. "I walked up to the counter and I just stood there for about 15 minutes and stared at him," she says. "He did nothing. That head went right down. All I saw was his white scalp. Then I began speaking with Deepak. I began questioning him. 'Were you a participant or did you help her?' I was very graphic.

"And I think it just shocked him. I can't even say what I said. He told me his attorney advised him not to talk. I told him repeatedly to hold his head up and look at me. I kept offering [him the choice of a] $250,000 reward or life in prison. He said he didn't need the money. Deepak finally looked up at the very end, and said, 'The media hasn't seen this side of you.'" Beth replied, "I've been saving it for you, Deepak." Afterward, Kalpoe filed a complaint with the police over the incident.

By mid-August, as Beth continued her crusade, communication between the police and the family had broken down entirely. Beth characterizes this as evidence of the ongoing cover-up; Gerold Dompig says his men just got tired of being yelled at. Still, Beth slogged forward, meeting with Nelson Oduber, the Aruban prime minister, on August 20. As much as it irked the police, her campaign appeared to work when, on Friday, August 26, the Kalpoes were suddenly re-arrested.

No explanation was given, leading to another spasm of speculation on cable and the Internet blogs dedicated to the case. Beth told me the brothers had been re-arrested because the gardener had crippled their alibis. In fact, Dompig says, this was not the case. The police decided to take a risk—a large one, as it turned out.

"Once we got a statement from Joran that [Natalee] passed out several times while he was sexually fondling her, we thought we had something," Dompig says. Under Dutch law, this could be viewed as sex without consent; anyone who enabled the crime could be judged an accessory. "We tried Deepak and Satish with that point; someone passed out in the back of your car, you're an accessory," Dompig says. "We were doing this to apply pressure. We felt Satish was the weakest link. We wanted to squeeze Satish. Deepak wants to protect Satish. But when we put that pressure on, it didn't work. Deepak is too strong."

The gambit blew up in Dompig's face. "Then the very same people who wanted us to solve the case—the family and the media—worked against us," he says. "There was all this criticism that we should never have released the [Kalpoes] in the first place. Unfortunately, the judge, you know, he heard this, and he didn't agree with us. So we lost the Kalpoes. When [they are] walking, Joran's lawyer says, 'Well, what about my client?' When that started rolling, that was the beginning of the end."

On Wednesday, August 31, the judge ordered Joran released; the next day the brothers were released as well. "It was all about Hurricane Katrina," Beth charges. Her anger is as fresh today as it was that day. "All the cameras were gone to New Orleans," she says. "So it was time to let the boys go under the curtain of Hurricane Katrina. Right there. There's your corruption and collusion."

Maybe. But a more likely explanation for the judge's decision is that the police had no body, no evidence of murder or any other crime. They had kept Joran in jail for nearly three months, and he hadn't cracked. Get some evidence, the judge said, or let the boy go.

Freed, Joran traveled with his father to the Netherlands, where he enrolled in college and was briefly accosted by a producer working for A Current Affair, to whom he repeated much of the story he had told Charles Croes in his driveway months before. The Kalpoes returned to their jobs. The Twittys retreated to Alabama for several weeks, but Beth returned to Aruba at Halloween as a new group of searchers began using sonar to hunt for the body off the northern beaches, only to quit in despair, citing a lack of cooperation from the Aruban authorities.

Since Joran's release, the only real news in the investigation has come from, of all places, the Dr. Phil show, which sent a team of investigators to Aruba. There, in a taped interview, a California lie-detector specialist named Jamie Skeeters seemed to get Deepak Kalpoe to admit to having had sex with Natalee. The tape is being examined by Dutch authorities, but Gerold Dompig, for one, finds it inconclusive.

"I'm skeptical," he says. "It seems like a big hoax."

In an effort to sort fact from fiction, Dompig agreed to discuss the case in detail for the first time. Surprisingly little is known of how Natalee spent her time on Aruba, he says. At least initially, Dompig says, Beth asked investigators to refrain from debriefing the Alabama students. Not for weeks did the F.B.I. begin to interview them, and even now, Dompig says, police have not seen these statements. They have, however, taken statements from hotel managers.

"This group of students was a very—I don't want to demonize them—but the group really went far, very far, in terms of having a good time," Dompig says. "Wild partying, a lot of drinking, lots of room switching every night. We know the Holiday Inn told them they weren't welcome next year. Natalee, we know, she drank all day every day. We have statements she started every morning with cocktails—so much drinking that Natalee didn't show up for breakfast two mornings."

Despite reports to the contrary, Dompig feels certain Natalee didn't meet Joran until her final day on Aruba, Sunday. He confirms that there have been numerous reports that she may have been involved with other young men on the island. "We have taken two statements, from Julia Renfro and a Holiday Inn worker, that Beth told them she had gotten a call from her daughter, and that she was in love with a tall, blue-eyed Dutch teenager. So [Beth] had contact with her daughter. But she denies it. The question is why. If [the Twittys] don't level with us, how can they talk about a conspiracy? We need to know the truth. Joran did not have blue eyes. So who was this boy?" Beth denies making any such statements, or even having talked with Natalee while she was in Aruba.

The Twittys have accused Joran of changing his story more than 20 times. Dompig says that, while Joran has indeed made small changes in some of his more than 20 statements, he has given just three versions of what happened. The first, discarded in early June, ended with Natalee dropped off at the Holiday Inn. The second had Joran leaving her at the beach by the Marriott. In a third, given to police in August, Joran claimed Deepak had actually dropped him off near his home and disappeared with Natalee in his car.

"This latest story [came] when he saw the other guys, the Kalpoes, were kind of finger-pointing in his direction, and he wanted to screw them also, by saying he was dropped off," Dompig says. "But that story doesn't check out at all. He just wanted to screw Deepak. They had great arguments about this in front of the judge. Because their stories didn't match. This girl, she was from Alabama, she's not going to stay in the car with two black kids. We believe the second story, that they were dropped off by the Marriott. But then the time line [Joran has given] starts to get into trouble."

Aruban detectives have repeatedly interviewed witnesses in an effort to establish that time line. It's been widely reported, for instance, that Joran returned to his home that morning around four. In fact, Dompig says, "nobody knows what time he got home." Nor is it clear how he got there. "He says he walked," Dompig continues, a distance of about two miles. "That is very unlikely."

The tennis shoes Joran wore that night have never been found, which police find suspicious. Another missing item involves a break-in that night at one of the low-slung fisherman's huts that line the beach north of the Marriott. Reported taken were a machete and perhaps a lobster trap. The police do not have a single witness who claims to have seen Joran that morning.

Moreover, Dompig says, this summer F.B.I. profilers completed a detailed psychological evaluation. "He struck us, and the F.B.I., as a guy who can make you believe he's God's gift to mothers-in-law," Dompig says. "But if you look at his actions, he's anything but. The F.B.I. profiled him as a person who never has been corrected by his parents. He's the boss of what happens in that house. He's the boss in the family. He is allowed to do anything.… If a person like that is in a position where a person says, 'No,' well, that person may change completely. Maybe he blew a fuse when she wouldn't have sex with him, and something happened."

Leaving aside Dompig's explanations and excuses, and ignoring some of the Twittys' behavior toward Arubans, one can't help but share Beth's outrage that the principal suspects in her daughter's disappearance are free. Yet, absent a body or any physical evidence, the situation is unlikely to change anytime soon. It's entirely possible, in fact, that the mystery may never be solved.

What do I think? I think Natalee died on the beach that night a couple of hundred yards north of the Marriott. Maybe she denied Joran sex and he strangled or drowned her in a fit of rage. Maybe it was alcohol poisoning. Maybe, as some have speculated, she was slipped a tablet of Ecstasy or some other drug, and she died from a lethal cocktail.

If her body had been buried on Aruba, it probably would have been found by now. If it had been dumped into the surf, it would have ended up back on the beach the following morning. But 200 yards offshore is a sandbar. It's a romantic rendezvous. Couples sometimes go there to make love, and the fishermen watch from their boats. On the other side of that sandbar the current shifts, running west. Anything placed in the water on the far side of the sandbar will drift away from the island, toward Panama. If Natalee was deposited there, her body is gone forever.

Bryan Burrough is a Vanity Fair special correspondent. He is currently working on a book about Texas oil families.

Illustrations by TIM SHEAFFER
   
 
 
   

Take-over purchase Valero fixed
21 Jun, 2008, 17:14 (GMT -04:00)

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ORANJESTAD – The take-over purchase of the Valero-refinery in Aruba by the Brazilian national oil-company Petrobras is fixed. Amigoe learned this from well-informed sources. Management received confirmation via mail from director Raymond Buckley that the refinery in San Nicolas is sold and that the closing took place on Friday. None of the two parties have officially confirmed the sale yet. Spokesperson Mariaine Arends-Croes of Valero Aruba said on Friday that the above are just rumours. However, a member of management confirmed that the mail with the information was circulated. Amigoe doesn’t know whether Petrobras has indeed paid the earlier mentioned amount of 2.8 milliard dollars for the refinery. The negotiations on the take-over purchase were stopped at the beginning of this year, after a vacuum-unit of the refinery was seriously damaged by fire. Petrobras indicated that they want to await the reparation(s) first, before they continue talking about the take-over. The unit was put into operation again early this month and the negotiations were resumed.
 
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_43660.php

Hubert Tiel later reported the "helicopter" incident also. I remember Beth on the Dr Phil show mentioning that she was out to dinner and was approached by a man and told about following someone who he thought was Natalee being taken from one house to another.....and at the last house before he could get close enough a helicopter came, landed and the people in the house we spirited away.

Hiya Monkeys. While I think Jossy may know more than he has told publicly, I do believe he has been more help to Natalee's family than the entire population on the island of Aruba put together. His reasons may be politically motivated. I don't know for sure.
If all of us dig deep enough into our ancestral closet we will find family members who weren't exactly on the same level as The Pope. What I am trying to say is just because members of our family may be crooked as a dogs hind leg, that doesn't mean all who carry that surname are.

Interesting long article Johan! I didn't realize that the gardner saw JK2 burying Natalee and the jogger saw them digging  ::MonkeyConfused::
-------------------

The most intriguing lead, he decided, was a rumor that one of the Kalpoe brothers had confessed to killing Natalee—sort of—to a fellow prisoner while in the Aruban jail. The prisoner had heard that a relative's gardener, named Cumpa, had seen Joran and the Kalpoes burying Natalee's body in a vacant lot near the Marriott. When the Kalpoe brother was told the story, he supposedly went ashen and flipped over the dominoes they were playing with.

Three days later, a crowd of reporters gathered in the vacant lot by the Marriott to watch the police begin draining a pond near where the gardener, as he came to be known, claimed he had seen Joran and the Kalpoes digging.  Gerold Dompig ended up discounting everything the gardener had said. "The gardener['s story]," he says, "was a concoction."

The gardener and Poom Poom episodes were followed by the jogger—a story made the rounds in August that a late-night jogger had seen Joran and the Kalpoes digging near the same spot the gardener had identified. Police made a public appeal for the man to contact them, and he eventually did. Unfortunately, "the jogger had some problems," Art Wood says, sighing. "He was a convicted sex offender. Apparently he was a murderer or rapist or something." Gerold Dompig confirms this story. He says neither the jogger nor his story panned out in any way.
===============================
"That's how she is," says Arends. "She's a two-faced woman."

The tensions came to a head in the wake of an appearance Renfro made on the Van Susteren show. "Nobody knows this, but the family were the ones determining who goes on the shows," she says. "It was all them." That night, when Van Susteren asked about Joran, Renfro described the teenager as an excellent student with a good reputation and "an idol for the younger kids" at school.

Thank you SS ::MonkeyWink::

[/quote]

FYI - regarding the "corporationwiki".  I know for a fact there is at least one member of RU that is an active updater of Wikipedia files and has edited Wiki pages in this case to favor Joran.
[/quote]

are you talking about the alleged lawyer who changed a lot of natalee's entries?  the guy whose main claim to fame is that he follows a lot of bands around and spends an seemingly unhealthy amount of time with young people who all look like they're spaced out on drugs.  can't remember his name but his only rationale for changing the entries on natalee seemed to be that she sounded much too good to be true.  not one damn person at wikipedia faulted his "opinions" so i no longer count on wikipedia for anything. 
dennisintn

Rob ... I strongly disagree.  Without creditable backup or ... the words "I speculate/contend/believe" ... SS's post is nothing but character assassination of the "only" person on the Island of Aruba who has supported the family while they have riden on the roller coast ride from H--- for the past three years.

Jossy Mansur is the issue ... not his family.

I spent two hours compiling and sharing research which supports my contention and ... the contention of Natalee's family ... that for the past three years Jossy has been a thorn in the side of those within the corrupt Aruban investigation who have denied Natalee Holloway justice.  I have not read any backup to the contrary yet ... SS considers Jossy's contribution SMALL TOKENS.

Considering the political dynamics on the Island of Aruba ... I do not consider Jossy's words on the American talk show circuit ... words to Scared Monkey's Red and Dana and ..  words in his many  editorials ... SMALL TOKENS ... far from it.

Until Beth Holloway changes her position and no longer uphold Jossy Mansur's contribution to the cause of exposing the coverup that has denied her daughter justice ... I will not partake in the Kool Aid. 

Janet

+++++++++++

OCKHAM'S RAZOR
"You must never fail to adopt the simplest idea as your working hypothesis. If necessity demands, you can dump it later when you have more data, but only because it is no longer the simplest idea" or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: I wanted to say something similar, earlier, but had to tend to other things and am just getting back to reading.  My dad had a cousin with a couple of sons....one was educated & a successful businessman and the other was a blue collar and rumored to have dealings with the underworld lowlife, ie. gambling & drugs and also was arrested for passing bad checks, etc.  Needless to say, my Dad didn't appreciate going to the bank he'd used for 40 + years and having his name checked against the list.....one bad egg caused a lot of heartache for our large family.  Dad from that point never acknowledged the rotten egg as a relation.   ::MonkeyCool:: ::MonkeyWink::

it is amazing to me how renfro and the aruban protection society can be so stupid as to blame beth for lying when she told things she believed to be true that she was told by arubans.  these tales they say are lies weren't made up in mountain brook, or by beth. 
dennisintn

http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba

http://thekomisarscoop.com/1997/05/29/drug-smugglers-dutch-treat/

http://duncan.gn.apc.org/bat/Health_Committee_Evidence_1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jossy_Mansur

http://duncan.gn.apc.org/bat/Health_Committee_Evidence_1.htm

http://www.public-i.org/Content.aspx?src=search&context=article&id=579

http://www.publicintegrity.org/Report.aspx?aid=355

[/quote]

very well said SS and I agree 110%

great post!!!

[/quote]

Rob ... I strongly disagree.  Without creditable backup or ... the words "I speculate/contend/believe" ... SS's post is nothing but character assassination of the "only" person on the Island of Aruba who has supported the family while they have riden on the roller coast ride from H--- for the past three years.

Jossy Mansur is the issue ... not his family.

I spent two hours compiling and sharing research which supports my contention and ... the contention of Natalee's family ... that for the past three years Jossy has been a thorn in the side of those within the corrupt Aruban investigation who have denied Natalee Holloway justice.  I have not read any backup to the contrary yet ... SS considers Jossy's contribution SMALL TOKENS.

Considering the political dynamics on the Island of Aruba ... I do not consider Jossy's words on the American talk show circuit ... words to Scared Monkey's Red and Dana and ..  words in his many  editorials ... SMALL TOKENS ... far from it.

Until Beth Holloway changes her position and no longer uphold Jossy Mansur's contribution to the cause of exposing the coverup that has denied her daughter justice ... I will not partake in the Kool Aid. 

Janet

+++++++++++

OCKHAM'S RAZOR
"You must never fail to adopt the simplest idea as your working hypothesis. If necessity demands, you can dump it later when you have more data, but only because it is no longer the simplest idea" or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."
[/quote]

i'm with you, janet.  just because the mansur family history sounds like our own world famous kennedy family history doesn't mean anything in the case of natalee ann holloway.  until i hear something to the contrary from natalee's family, jossy continues to wear possibly the only white hat on the island as far as natalee is concerned.
dennisintn

Janet -
I have credible back up, but that person is no longer with us. But that alone does not relegate his direct words to me. I formed my opinions on info I have collected and that of others that I deem credible.

Because the person is no longer alive and is not here to share his thoughts, his knowledge, defend himself or the direct dealings while on Aruba, I feel it is something that I should keep to myself and leave out what he said.

I am making the point that just because you or I do not know everything does not mean that others do not have that knowledge.

You are free to disagree, but this is my personal belief and if that's unpopular - so be it.

I agree Dennis.

Janet
_____________

Jossy Mansur
Dana Pletzer Show
October 5, 2007

MANSUR: People thought Beth caused bad publicity for the island, but Beth is not at fault, it is the three suspects. If there's damage to the island it should be on the shoulders of the three suspects.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/10/05/the-dana-pretzer-show-live-friday-october-5-2007-guests-include-jossy-mansur-and-ken-shepherd/

Rob ... think about it.  Logic dictates that whatever Jamie Skeeters shared with you ... he shared with Beth ... he shared with Jug Twitty ... he shared with John Kelly.  Why would he not reveal to the family that they are being deceived.

As far as I know ... Beth Holloway continues to uphold Jossy Mansur and ... until she otherwise reveals ... so do I.

Janet

Does anyone know who Destiny is calling today?  I want to know the latest.  I hope her ringy dingy isn't broken.  ::MonkeyShocked::

Hey Klaas,

Checked for press releases and investor news from Petrobras on this and didn't see anything yet. 

Janet -
I am not getting into an argument / discussion that pits Beth's words against anyone. She said nice things about Joe M. after he was detained and sent to the slammer. Beth is a nice, kind, and gentle lady. I'll remind you that I was correct about Joe also.

Please feel free to carry on this end of the discussion.

I'm saying that as nicely as I can - I even have a lil smile on my face...LOL

Thanks SS...I inserted a quote from the last link on your list...great links BTW...took awile to read them allbut worth it to me....Made me think of *why is Joran in Thailand?*....

 

# From 1990 onwards, the major means by which the cartels sought to bring funds back to Colombia was by means of smuggling. The principal centre for this activity was Aruba, and the principal product involved was cigarettes. At this time, the three most prominent smuggling agents in Aruba were the Harms family, the Mansur family, and Randolph Habibe. The Harms worked for BAT, while the Mansurs worked for Philip Morris, the manufacturers of Marlboro cigarettes.

 

# The basic mechanism of money laundering was that US dollars raised from cocaine sales were transferred to Aruba, and used to purchase cigarettes from agents such as the Harms or the Mansurs. The cigarettes were then smuggled into Colombia along traditional routes, and sold in urban black market centres known as Sanandresitos. The proceeds of the black market sales were then transferred to the cocaine producers, as "clean" Colombian pesos. This mechanism, known as peso broking, is the basic means of money laundering associated with cocaine trafficking.

 

# From 1990 onwards, contraband cigarettes increasingly took over from legal cigarette sales in Colombia, at times constituting 70 to 90 per cent of the market. BAT (and Philip Morris) responded to the situation by massively increasing contraband shipments into Colombia, primarily by way of Aruba. BAT files show that successive illegal operations were planned from the United Kingdom to increase smuggling sales into Colombia. Most of the BAT cigarettes concerned came from Venezuela. Smuggling into Colombia was so important to BAT that when Venezuela threatened to introduce export taxes, BATCo responded with an emergency plan to relocate its factories and equipment to Chile instead.

 

# By 1992, both the Mansurs and the Harms were under active investigation by American and British law enforcement agencies for involvement in cocaine related money-laundering. Yet in the same year, BAT director Keith Dunt visited Aruba to be briefed by Roy Harms about smuggling, and then invited him to enjoy corporate hospitality at Wimbledon alongside ambassadors and a Foreign Office minister.

 

# Similar features are present in other major BAT smuggling markets. In Hong Kong, the close involvement of the smuggling trade with Triad gangs has resulted in the murder of a BAT manager and an agent, the prosecution for corruption of the company’s former export manager, and other ex-employees fleeing justice.

 

# In Asia as in Latin America, smuggling routes used by BAT into Myanmar, Thailand, Afghanistan among others overlap directly with traditional narcotics export routes, in this case from the "Golden Triangle" and "Golden Crescent" regions.

I agree with Yapperz.  I'll also reiterate something I said before:  If Jossy's family is involved with some seriously bad people, if members of his family ARE seriously bad people, then that is what keeps Jossy alive as he speaks out against some whom we know are involved with other groups of seriously bad people.  I hope Jossy himself is not involved in illegal activities.  Even if he has this unspoken protection, there may be limits about how far he can go without endangering himself.  It's not a secret that organized crime operates in the Caribbean because they have small police forces, lack the money to  have sophisticated equipment and investigators, and the small size of the governments make them easy to corrupt as there are few checks and balances.  We don't know how deeply anyone in Aruba is involved with these groups, but they exist on every island, Aruba is no exception.   The other side of the coin is that maybe neither Jossy nor his family are into big time crime, but are subject to some of the same threats and fears that we've seen from others in Aruba who didn't speak up, changed their stories, or went along with the coverup.  There are probably 100,000 people living within a 5 mile radius of me.  That's their entire society.  They have no where to turn, no one to go to, if they suspect the government of wrongdoing.  There's no relocation program, no moving to another state.  I can't fathom life in that small a society, in spite of its ties to the Netherlands.  I'm not making excuses for anyone in Aruba, but I do think we need to put into perspective the nature of their culture, their lives; it's very different from anything we know here in the US.  Jossy may have political motives for some of what he's done, but so does the Washington Post and the New York Times as well as many of our news magazines and TV stations.  Jossy also may know things he can't prove and therefore won't go public with it until he has some proof.  I don't believe for a minute that there aren't police officers who know there was a coverup, know there's corruption and don't like it.  But without proof, without a smoking gun and a higher authority that will act on it, what good is it?  Maybe some of the politicians from the Netherlands who are been vocal about corruption in Aruba are hoping to get calls and info from the honest ones in Aruba.  Maybe the will. 

Arrests in the Daryanani murder case
21 Jun, 2008, 17:23 (GMT -04:00)


WILLEMSTAD – In connection with the investigation into the fatal attack on proprietor Nanik Daryanani of the internet café in Punda, two men were arrested yesterday morning early on suspicion of among others fencing. The mobile telephone of Daryanani was found on one of the suspects.

The arrest of the 37-year old M.J.G.P. took place in his home in Muizenberg around 05:00 and that of the 45-year old H.A.F.E. at the police station in Otrobanda around 11:20. The police don’t want to give much detail in the interest of the investigation. “It is just in the begin phase”, says police spokesman Reggie Huggins on being asked.

Nanik ‘Nick’ Daryanani (65) was strangled in the night of May 24 to 25. Daryanani, who lived in Curacao for 45 already, was popular for being very sociable. Another proprietor in Punda was also killed in an attack last Sunday. Pim Timmermans (59) of restaurant Larousse in the Penstraat was shot and killed after closing. The perpetrators disappeared with the money-box.

Amigoe.com

   
Police investigating sexual abuse Statia
June 16, 2008, 17:04 (GMT -04:00)


ORANJESTAD - A detective of the technical department of the police force of St. Arrived Sunday on St. Maarten Eustatius to the local police to assist in an investigation into a case of sexual abuse.

Politiewoordvoerder Robelto Hodge confirms that such an investigation ongoing, but did not want to go into the details, because of the sensitivity of the case and the small scale of the society of the island. He said that the investigation is still in its early stages and that no arrests have been made.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_43408.php

Joe M. actions that dictated his incarcenation does not negate what he did to seek justice for Natalee Holloway and ... uphold her family.  I am darn sure that Beth appreciated what he did.

Beth goes beyond saying nice words about Jossy ... she upholds him as her "only" friend on the Island.

Rob ... I am not smiling.  I am so troubled in regards to the direct this forum is beginning to take in regards to those who are upheld and those who are negated.  It does not make sense.

Janet
____________

A REMINDER

BETH TWITTY
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
September 14, 2005

TWITTY: Well, you know, I‘ll be forever grateful for Jossy Mansur, who is there. And he has been so instrumental. And he‘s just a hero to all of us. And, you know, he‘s my only hope on the island. And we‘ll be forever grateful to him.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9354188/


DAVE HOLLOWAY
Dana Pretzer Show
September 8, 2006

HOLLOWAY: Jossy has been very helpful to try to find the truth, the fact he lives in Aruba and publishes a newspaper, they're attacking him because he's looking for-- fighting for-- the truth. That’s what a good journalist does--He's going to go after the people, regardless, and try to find the truth


STEVE HOLLOWAY
Scared Monkey - FP Comments
April 6, 2007
 
Comment #20 ... I think he is a good man looking for the truth. He will not let them push him around. This is his home and is probably sick of the corruption that happens every day on such a large scale on such a small island.
Comment by Steve Holloway | April 6, 2007, 1:02 pm


JUG TWITTY
Scared Monkey - FPComments
December 5, 2006

Comment #6 ... THANK YOU JOSSY I DON’T KNOW HOW YOU DO IT BUT YOU HAVE BEEN THERE FOR US FROM THE BEGENNING  AND THE PEOPLE OF ARUBA SHOULD BE PROUD OF YOU.
Comment by JUG TWITTY | December 5, 2006, 10:57 am

Yes indeedy Lala's  I am doing a couple of ringy dingys'...and one email I *really* want a reply to...

Destiny ;-)

something happened right under Bahia - two arrests. Looks like it started over the EuroCup of Soccer (football).

(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/Morgan2112_2006/bahia1.jpg)

www.awe24.com

Sigur cu e oncena di Hulanda den EuroCup a laga masha hende decepciona na Aruba, despues di a perde 3-1 contra di Rusia. Esaki a pone cu algun di e fanaticonan aki, cu no por perde, a cuminsa comporta nan mes masha malo, te cu mester a pidi polis pa intervencion. Patras di Bahia, varios polis mester a bay, ora cu e fanaticonan aki no kier a comporta nan mes, te cu polis mester a aresta 2 di nan.

BUMPED

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/10/harrytho_1023_n.php

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/10/harrytho_1017_e.php

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhealth/27/0021603.htm

http://judicial-inc.biz/j_0_ran_aruba_crime.htm

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa49196.000/hfa49196_0f.htm

http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/NarcoHenHouse.htm

http://www.publici.org/Content.aspx?src=search&context=article&id=335

http://www.intelligence.org.il/Eng/bu/hizbullah/pb/app14.htm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1473569/US-Air-Force-drug-funded-terrorism

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:YVvl_lbyRScJ:www.tobaccofreekids.org/campaign/global/framework/docs/Smuggling.pdf+mansur+aruba+corruption&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=94&gl=us

www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/frd1003.pdf

Excellent post LilPuma!...it gives room for all thought directions....speculation...always leads to more brain synapses clicking away....TY

Destiny

Nobody has said that Beth has been deceived.   JM has been extrememly helpful and supportive of Beth and Dave.  I honestly believe that he has great sympathy for both of them.  His efforts have been appreciated and continue to be appreciated.  He has been as helpful as he can be ...... 

I watched Jossy Mansur very closely over the years and I believe he was sincere in helping Natalee get justice and bringing in the perps. I know in my heart and by his actions that is true. However I believe he has given up and is not telling us much of what he knows for the obvious reasons. The days of Jossy being a vocal supporter for Natalee are over,he is not willing to sacrafice anything in regards to her getting justice and the powers that be I think put major pressure on this man to shut up. It's a no win situation for him supporting Natalee and trying to fight against the corruption that runs that country and the cover up.

Janet - this is an open forum that deals with missing and murdered people. There will always be differing opinions. I do not have a problem with you having a differing view.

btw - my feelings about Joe M started when he reneged on the reward money in the LaToya Figeroa case. That was enough for me.

You are free to support Jossy and whomever you wish.

I am only here to support Natalee - and as a by product her family.

I'm sorry you are getting upset, but others will always have their views - and some I do not agree with, but I allow them the same courtesy I am allowed - to respectfully and civilly discuss the issue... I thought that was what was happening. In fact, there have been a lot of views I don't agree with.

I love caesu's views on Natalee, but the his political view is somewhat different than mine. I separate the two and believe caesu is a very valuable member of this forum. And I think you are a very valuable member. Just as I like caesu as a person, I like you. You are not a nameless keyboard puncher without feelings and I try to take those feelings into consideration when I post.

Most of us will never agree on every issue... and I just don't believe Jossy is all that. That's my opinion based on info I have been presented and made on own decision. I might like to have a beer with him and play cards, but I doubt I want to live next door to him. Janet - Jamie has been dead for a year and a half. He died in January 07 - have you ever seen me post what he told me? I have kept that to myself. This latest round concerning Jossy was started independent of me - I just posted my views as others have.

No one can pick their family members, we all know that. But if Jossy is involved in activities that mirror those family members (even if it's in the past) well, he's no better.

I really have to question why all of a sudden we are seeing all this OLD information about Jossy being brought up.  This is nothing new.  I'm finding it very curious  ::MonkeyCool::

SS - most of the sites you have referenced above are about as good as referencing Julia Renfro, Stinkypete or RU. 

I agree *******

Is that really necessary, Klaas?  Many of those references contain government reports from the UK and ISA.

Edit:  UK and USA

******* ... I agree.

Janet
____________

Klaas - this discussion is an outgrowth of the location and proximity of the Mansur businesses and homes to the porn video businesses in Miami.

Klass ... this IS what I have been thinking while scanning the post from the past week.  There seems to have been an attempt to undermine everything that Jossy Mansur has done in the cause of justice for Natalee Holloway by negating his character with no credible backup.

This is exactly EXACTLY what the trolls on other sites have been doing since day one when Jossy stepped forward to be a voice for Natalee Holloway and a support to the family via his publication ... talk show circuit ... Scared Monkey interviews with Red and Dana ...

Janet

++++++++

BFN
Re: Jossy Mansur ... The Return of the Jedi
« Reply #26 on: Today at 01:16:19 AM »

Quote from: MIP6 on December 05, 2006, 10:43:14 PM

Calling Jossy the return of the Jedi is very accurate.

Jossy is the Darth Vader of this whole mystery.

You remember, Darth, he was a Jedi of the DARK SIDE, you know the Jedi with the personal agenda who didn't give a darn about anything but himself.

SS - I know how the discussion got started.  I'm not sure what you mean "is that necessary"?  I was simply stating my opinion as a poster so I guess I felt it was necessary. 

No credible backup - exactly.  We've seen the same thing done to Beth and Jug's character.

Hi All,
Just wanted to update everyone about DC. Aruba never showed. As Linda said, It was great. They were on the list to go, and then pulled out....I imagine it was costly.Almost every other Island was there...so unless they were disguised, they didnt show, We walked around wearing our shirts and gavethe 20.00 Bills out at the food court where the owners put them out... I gave them to the teenagers who were there. There really wasnt much to do because like I said Aruba was to embarresed to show their ugly faces...Pictures will be coming and Yes its me cause Linda had the camers. It was taken at the NY Times Booth. I hope someone sends it to the Times....We left the 20.00 bills on each Booths table and in the ladies room. Prayer cards were handed out the next day, but I left because like I said NOONE was going to aruba...
Thanks for your prayers and support. Linda it was wonderful meeting you and I hope and pray we can all meet in Alabama when they bring Natalee home,
Hugs
Vicki

I've been trying to find where in the official government links above it specifically mentions Jossy Mansur, can you help me find it?  I may have missed it.

Thanks for the update *******.  I asked Richard to let Vicki know to send me the photos and an update so we can do a front page post on it.  I'm going to add a couple of screen shots of the activities I've gotten from the videos on the website.  So hopefully I'll get the photos from whomever has them  ::MonkeyWink::

To ALL Monkeys...

I think it was my own darn self that started this whole Jossy fiasco by posting something regarding that I didn't trust Jossy in all things....

To let you all know...I have never talked with, nor emailed Jossy...I have no *personal* experience with Jossy...

But Jossy did have access to something I was trying to get from someone else in Aruba...based on coversations, and emails with that person...I concluded that Jossy put the nix on getting this info...

I is my own personal experience/belief in what I wrote above...based on real personal experience...

That is why we have the JMOO...to use...

I regret posting anything of my own *feelings*...let's just all drop it now....it's getting us nowhere but agitated with each other...and that doesn't help anyone...

We all work, in our own ways to help Natalee....and her Family...

Sorry if any of my input on the forum...has brought us to this....

Destiny

Destiny  - it had nothing do to with what you have said or your feelings about Jossy.  I think we are all trying to relook at everything and some are looking very carefully at Jossy's background.  My problem is even though I'm sure Jossy is no saint, he cannot be blamed for everything the Mansur family has done.

http://www.awe24.com/


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/awe24062308.jpg)

Klaas...on this we are in 100% agreement!

NOW THIS IS FUNNY!!! ::MonkeyHaHa::

(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/Morgan2112_2006/BLUEVAN16-23-2008.jpg)

That's either a paddy wagon or the Mr. Softie  ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

SS ... if you perceive for one minute that Jossy Mansur is Dirtyhand ... then you must adhere to the belief that Jossy's role in the Natalee Holloway case could possibly be one of deception.

Janet

+++++++++



++++++++++

Ahhhhhhhh...but there appears to be a white van behind Mr. Softie...LOL

Really, Janet.  You are quoting a discussion that we are having over in the Shango thread. 

dat's da popo!!

(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/Morgan2112_2006/arubapopopicksupnutball1.jpg)

stuff'd in like luggage...

and here they do it again last week!! LMAO!!

(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/Morgan2112_2006/dummassstuffdin1.jpg)
time for a snoozee!

and one for fun!!

good goolie moolie!!!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/Morgan2112_2006/goodgodinthegoosegrease1.jpg)

Rob.....waz dat tat on the dude sleepin'?

Des - YOU are not going to believe this - I blew it up to 300% and inverted the colors and then mirrored and then cropped - and guess what???

it say KICK ME

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Did you learn how to do that from JackB?  ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

I just got this today do you think this would apply for Aruba
Headline Archives
   
SPECIALIZED ASSISTANCE
For U.S. Crime Victims Overseas    
06/23/08    

Kenbom-Tenbom

Earlier this month, we told you how the FBI responds internationally to incidents of Americans being seriously harmed or killed overseas.

But we also offer another, more personal service: through our victim assistance program, we ensure that victims and their families receive all the rights and services help they are entitled to under U.S. law. In other words, we make sure they have what they need to help put their lives back together.

share.gif
The FBI established its Office for Victim Assistance in 2002 to aid victims of crimes investigated by the Bureau, including overseas crimes against Americans. In addition to experts at our Headquarters, every FBI field office has its own victim assistance specialist. But we soon recognized that victims of overseas crimes that fell under FBI jurisdiction—like terrorism and kidnappings—had unique needs. So in 2003, we formed a Terrorism Victim Assistance Program within our Office for Victim Assistance.

Included on our special terrorism team are licensed clinical social workers and, soon, a forensic family affairs specialist—all with plenty of experience working with victims, particularly bombing victims.

Since then, we have worked with a variety of victims and their families—tourists, business travelers, missionaries, journalists, and humanitarian aid workers. We’ve also assisted U.S. government contractors and employees, including diplomats, security officials, and drivers. We have even worked with some of our own employees deployed overseas—most recently, with four agents injured in a bombing in Islamabad, Pakistan.

Our assistance usually begins shortly after the family—or in some cases an employer—is notified of the incident by the State Department. Our assistance can continue for years, depending on the path of the investigation and subsequent court proceedings…as well as the needs of the victim and/or family.

What kind of assistance do we offer? We break it down into three phases:

    * Acute: usually lasting anywhere from one to four weeks—includes explaining the process to the family; meeting with victims; coordinating medical evacuations and autopsies (if necessary) and obtaining official death certificates for benefits purposes; arranging crisis intervention services if appropriate; and facilitating investigative interviews with family members;
    * Intermediate/Transition: usually anywhere from four to 24 weeks—includes identifying additional federal, state, and local resources for victims; providing appropriate intervention with creditors and employers; supplying case status updates; and arranging briefings with investigative officials; and
    * Long-term: could be months or years—includes responding to inquiries from victims and/or their families; maintaining updated victim contact information; providing updates on case developments; and assisting with travel arrangements to attend the trial.

Over the past several years, we’ve been called upon to offer assistance to victims around the world. We’ve coordinated medical evacuations following terrorist attacks in the U.K., Jordan, and Egypt…helped families of citizens taken hostage in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Colombia…worked with recovered American hostages from Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza, and Nigeria…and coordinated the repatriation of citizens killed in terror attacks in London, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, and Jordan.

We don’t do it alone. While working with American victims and their families, we often work closely with partner agencies like the State Department, Defense Department, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, and the Dover Air Force Base Mortuary.

Resources:
- FBI Office for Victim Assistance

Hi AZ
 :smt028

I am standing by my earlier post 100%.  I have reposted below.  I have very strong and personal feelings about any individuals or groups of individuals who bring heroin and cocaine to the shores of this country.  I don't really care who they are.  I have watched more than one student, as promising as Natalee, lowered into the ground because those students foolishly took part in the recreational use of cocaine and/or heroin that was imported into this country and I have watched the lives of other young people ruined.  I will ask those who are in opposition to my opinion if you can prove to me that Jossy, Elias, or Miguel never had knowledge of, participation in, or personal financial gain from the drug smuggling activities that the Mansur family has been known for over a period of many years and that Ruben, Alex, and Luis have actually been arrested for. I have nothing further to say.

_______________________

I feel like I need to say something, and I realize that it's not going to be popular with some of the monkeys.  But, I still need to say it because it is reality.

The Mansur family has been involved with drugs, money laundering, and gambling in the Caribbean for many years. The family is fabulously wealthy and they have all benefited from things that the dirty money has provided.  At this point, the family owns 60% of Aruba.  Some Mansurs do seem to have legitimate businesses, but the big family money and power has come from a very dark place.  JM and his relatives know where their money has come from and they are not saints.

The reason we are gathered on this forum is to seek Justice for a high school senior who disappeared on Aruba, but how many high school seniors here in America have overdosed on heroin or cocaine that has been smuggled into the US by members of the Mansur family?  There is nothing more tragic than the funeral of a promising young person who has overdosed on recreational drugs at a party. 

I do appreciate that Jossy has helped Beth and Dave, but this doesn't exonerate him or his family from the bigger picture.  Dirty Hand or not, JM knows exactly what happened that night because he is the most powerful man on that island and it's his business to know what happened that night. He has chosen not to reveal the information although he most likely has great sympathy for Beth and Dave.  I am also not aware of any Mansur money being spent for drug clinics or drug prevention programs.  We can certainly be appreciative of the small tokens that come our way, but let's not forget the bigger picture.

Thanks for the update *******

Blonde, it sure seems like it would apply to Natalee!

Hey ... wait a minute.  You got that backwards.

I believe that it is you SS who should provide the proof that Jossy Mansur has "knowledge of, participation in, or personal financial gain from the drug smuggling activities that the Mansur family has been known for over a period of many years and that Ruben, Alex, and Luis have actually been arrested for" prior to implying otherwise.

It is not as though Jossy Mansur chose a relationship with Ruben, Alex and Luis.  They are family.

Nevertheless ... the issue is Jossy Mansur upholding the family in their contention that a corrupt investigation has been preventing justice from prevailing for Natalee.  In that area ... IMO Jossy Mansur is above reproach.

Janet

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/337204.html

Law & Order
last updated: June 23, 2008 03:58:40 AM

STUDENTS INVESTIGATE LEVY SLAYING: A student project to investigate the 2001 death of Chandra Levy is receiving attention from CNN.com, which has created a Web site to track the project's progress. Criminal justice students at Bauder College in Atlanta are looking at Levy's case as well as the 2005 disappearance of Natalee Holloway, an Alabama teen who vanished during a trip to Aruba. On June 11, CNN.com rolled out a special Web section detailing the investigation. The students are pursuing the cases as members of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, an extracurricular crime club directed by Sheryl McCollum. The project will be featured on CNN's site through December. For more information, go to http://edition.cnn.com and search for "Bauder College." McCollum said tips about either case can be sent to ColdCaseTips@USACops.com.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I.

Good idea!   

Is the Bauder College group the "help from the States" that CAPS was referring to earlier in the month? 

Good Question....I was thinking that it could be Them that Caps was talking about..... ::MonkeyCool::

The Mansur and Florida "research" has been going on, for years. Check Aruba Dirty Police, August 2006.

The fact that a connection, to Jossy and his children, has not been identified, on any government or legal document, speaks volumes.  All boards, pro and con, have been searching. I am also sure that Miami is a favored place of any Aruban (and South American) just because of the culture in that city. I am more out-of place in Miami than someone from Aruba.  It is very different. I don't necessarily think that all the people are attracted for the drugs and porn.  I am open to the possiblity.

I come from a large family, including Doctors, VPs of major corporations and yes, my brother K____, the bookey.  Needles to say, the FBI has visited several siblings, but K___ is his own man.

Jossy has written many books with deep love of Aruba.  It would not surprise me if he has given to island philanthropic organizations, including drug education.  I never researched it.

If Jossy did "nix" sending a copy of "the letter", it very well could be, because he promised anonymity to the sender.  There is a reason that some Arubans feel safe going to Jossy.  Maybe it is his verbal/journalistic reprimands of those in power.

I agree with mojo, yapperz1, 2NJSons, dennisintn, LiPuma and Janet. 

I'm not so sure Jossy has not been "verbal".  He did post a full page letter, from us, on Natalee's anniversary.

Negative and I do not believe Caps got the help he was hoping for :(

Fellow Monkeys,

Reading today promotes great sadness.  SS, Janet, Rob, and many others whose 'handle' eludes me at the moment  . . .  really people - it's quite enough already. 

SS's post (initial and subsequent) have merit.  So does Janet's, Rob's, etc.

Each of you know not what the other knows.  This is not a jury trial.  Consensus must not be had.

Go back to your respective corners after you kiss and make-up.  This banter is not remotely productive and only serves to soil yourselves.  Take the high road, take a walk, or whatever, but chill.

Does someone have that message from CAPS, because I thought he meant someone was there with him.

No, I'm sure that's not who Caps was referring to.  The "help from the states" Caps said was arriving last Friday I believe.  I have no idea if that actually happened, just repeating what Caps said. 

Thank you Buckeye.  Thank you on behalf of Jossy Mansur.  He is worth of being upheld ... not undermine ... unless Beth Holloway  says otherwise.

Janet

Jossy is an enigma.
I think he certainly has helped Beth and Dave (more so than anyone on Aruba.) I also think Jossy's primary motivation is to make the other political party look bad. I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten.
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

JMO -- I think he has been blackmailed/threatened. He may be seriously sincere about wanting to solve this case -- but perhaps his or his family's past is being held over his head.

I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." So Was I
 He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten. Who IMO is bad news
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

Hi everyone,

I thought we put the "Jossy" questions to rest this weekend.  The recognition that the address on Brickell in Miami that was common to Jossy's old business, the BangBros, and whoever else, was apparently related to them having the same attorney/registered agent. 

Those businesses were probably never located there, only the attorney who served/serves as registered agent of record.  It was his address, therefore, no link between any of the businesses, past or present, unless demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, I hope no one here holds me accountable for the actions of some of my family members......there are some dooooooozies!  (Most by marriage).........(uuummmm, one in particular).......  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Regarding the The Karin Janssen woman of the Year Award, well, everyone is wrong sometimes.  That was just wrong.  I bet her family is hiding from her.

Van der Stratten...wrong again.   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Helen, now I see the pelican with the frog in its mouth.  But Ive always thought it was a picture of a darling baby monkey laying on a shelf holding his blankie in one hand.  Do you see that too????? ::cartwheel::

No wonder my Avatar was your favorite!   ::MonkeyHaHa::
Now I've ruined it for you!

(I don't see the baby monkey, but I'll keep looking)

Helen, that is so funny.  I am laying here laughing because the little monkey has green pjs on!!!!!

I believe you but ... I have never read or head Jossy Mansur uphold Jan Vander Straaten.  Are you able to provide me with a source.

Thank you.

Janet

 ::MonkeyLaugh::

You say you think he has been blackmailed/threatened and bingo, Luis gets arrested.  So maybe you're right.  Or maybe Jossy doesn't know anythiing more.  Maybe what he knows he can't reveal for reasons we don't know.  Remember Dompig cooperating with Dave and then doing a 180?  Remember Jossy saying the rumor was that Michael Dompig was going to be arrested?  Jossy said strong rumor.  Michael didn't get arrested, but Dompig publicly said he lied and then he quit the force.  Hmmmmmmm  Even if you think Dompig is scum, there's something fishy goin' on down in Hugo's 'hood.  Maybe, maybe, perhaps, could be.  I want to emphasize that for all we know, there's so much we don't know.  We're all entitled to our opinions of people, but those opinions are based on some facts and a lot we don't know.  What is good, is that we stay alert, open to available information and keep our guard up.  It's good that we not blindly trust anyone.  Monkeys all want justice for Natalee.  So do Jug, Dave, Beth and JQK.  Everyone else might have other items on their agenda -- DeVries wants ratings and the accolades, same with Dr. Phil.  Jossy may have political motives, Patrick may have wanted to be the hero, get the TV interviews and a book deal.  No one's motives have to be pure to be on the side of justice.  No one needs to have a lily white track record in life to do the right thing. 

SS, IMO, you have some good points about the Mansur family and the harm done by drugs.  But I don't know that Jossy is dirty.  I don't know if his whole family is dirty.  And if they are, but Jossy wants to help get justice for Natalee, should we turn down that help?  Should we not thank him and appreciate the help he's offered, the support he's given Beth and Dave?  What if Jossy is dirty.  What should we do?  The DEA and FBI probably know who's who down there--could be why they showed up so quickly--but they can only work with locals, they need the government's permission to do so, and they might feel that their priority is drugs and money laundering, not Natalee Holloway.  They have to swim with some of the sharks to get the people they want, get the big drug busts before those drugs hit our streets, so maybe they ignore the little guys in Aruba to get the big guys in Columbia.  To sum it up, Jossy has helped the family.   He's spoken out against the bull that flows freely on Aruba.  If he's involved in something illegal, then he doesn't deserve the Great American Hero award.  If he deserves to be in prison, that's the job of ALE and the FBI/DEA, it's a little bit out of the monkeys' league.  In fact, that's waaaay out of the monkeys' league.  But turning down whatever information and help he can offer in this case would accomplish nothing.  Like law enforcement everywhere, maybe monkeys need to swim with some sharks to get the justice we've been looking for.  The drug cartels, organized crime around the world, is best left to the pros. 

I definitely believe that following Jossy Mansur's editoria in December, 2007 following the release of Joran, Deepak and Satish ... the editoria where he pledged continuing support in the pursuant of justice for Natalee Holloway ... something happened.  For six months Jossy has been suspiciously silence and ... his interview with Dana this month ... his word were very evasive.  However ... he did devote a full page for the letter marking the third anniversary of Natalee Holloway's disappearance submitted by Destiny.

Considering his unwavering support for Natalee Holloway's family in the previous 2 1/2 years ... I believe that Jossy Mansur deserves the benefit of the doubt from Monkeys that personal/ family/ health issues as well as possible pressures from the "powers that be" could imply that the Natalee Holloway case cannot be a priority at this period in time in his life.  Rather than any condemnation ... I contend it is our turn to provide Jossy Mansur with support through our words and prayers.

Janet

++++++

Jossy Mansur
Scared Monkey - Front Page
December 9, 2007

Jossy Mansur also made it known that DIARIO will not stop in the pursuit of the truth in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. We asked Jossy Mansur, the managing editor of Diario, his opinion on this matter.

I wish I could give you a proper answer, but I have the same dilemma of belief in the prosecution. I don’t know how Moss could risk re-arresting the three suspects, give such confident interviews, speak with so much determination about his new evidence, and then suddenly is willing to throw in the towel and put an end to his resolve. Was it just a show, a public exhibition of “we did everything that we could, but at the end couldn’t”, prior to closing the case and attempt in the process to put up a front of “good intentions” and nothing else? It seems so from this new perspective that he himself has created. It brings to mind the opinion that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”!

We at the DIARIO have been questioning other incomprehensible attitudes of the prosecuting department on other matters with concrete, documented facts. It has become obvious to us and to the independent part of the population that the prosecutors will only act on behalf of the government against its opponents, but never….and I will repeat NEVER against the corrupt Ministers and Parliament members of the ruling party. In short, the majority of the people in Aruba are convinced that politics has a lot to do with the prosecution’s decisions.

I said that once in an editorial against the Attorney General and she took me to court. She lost in the lower courts, appealed, and lost again in the High Court! I was upheld in that statement by four different Dutch Judges! And so was the mayor opposing party, the AVP, who said the same thing and was also taken to Court and also won their case against the Attorney General. I believe in the Judges in Aruba, but how can I continue to believe in the prosecutors when faced with such devastating facts? I am willing to uphold our system of justice, I am willing to go to great lengths to defend it because it has functioned well in most cases, but it too has to show me that it is blind to political influence and and any kind of pressure in ALL cases! And that is pathetically missing in Natalee’s case,

Mos may have thrown in the towel, or is willing to do so and not go to trial, but we at the DIARIO will never give up on the case until the truth is know about what happened to Natalee. The first thing I will order Monday morning is a total review of the case, from its incipience, and to put all the FACTS together, and that it be published, including the documents, admissions, interviews and other pertinent facts that are in our possession. We will give it our best to prove to Mos and his associates that the case cannot be closed while there is so much fact, indication and admissions in play!
 
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/12/09/jossy-mansur-provides-an-opinion-on-the-actions-of-aruban-prosecutor-hans-mos/

Did Jossy review the whole case(what he has in his possession)that monday?
I'm all for Jossy,always have been and probably always will be no matter what is found out about him.He has helped Natalee's family more than anyone else on that hellhole.No one has shown this "Jossy owns 60% of aruba",I don't think,but I have heard this for 3 years now and even if he does.....so what.I wish Jossy the best and hope for continued good health for him.

Thanks ******* for bringing that over!
I agree that the DeVries tapes did not "solve" the case, but I disagree that they should not have been televised, I've commented in navy in some areas of the statements.

Read the snippet below by Nico Jorg in his parting interview. This sums up Aruba's dilemma with not being able to cope with their corruption. I would not be a bit surprised if they busted Luis Mansur to shut Jossy up. This is the way Aruba operates.

This exactly why Natalee's case has never been solved, Nico says that the OM is helpless at prosecuting crime on anything above the street level because too many politics become involved. NOTICE WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT SMEAR CAMPAIGNS. DOES THAT NOT REMIND YOU OF WHAT THEY HAVE TRIED TO DO TO NATALEE AND BETH? It is what we've known all along, Aruba is corrupt because they are nothing but a good-ole-boy network. Nico knows it all too well.


Gloomy political climate 20 Jun, 2008

Nico Jorg: “I am under the impression that the OM comes up against a wall of resistance if they do more than just combating street criminality and get actively involved in investigation of the upperworld. It starts with a smear campaign in the media, nourished by politics. Corruption control is important for the country, because corruption slows down economic growth.”


http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_43593.php

Nope.

True. We are discussing Dirty Hand over in Shango...let's try to keep the Shango stuff over there if possible.  It confuses old sows like me. Thanks.

Thanks for pointing that out Dayhiker!  Yes, I will never forget the attacks on Natalee and Beth...we've all seen it, heard it, and read it for over three years now!  They want to blame their economic issues on the victims of crime when it is the "comfort" that corruption finds on their "happy little island" that is hurting them.  I hate to see Nico Jorg go...he's the only one that had the "cahunas" to call PVDS out a long time ago...and I'm glad he made the statement you've posted here on his way out.  It is so true....and I will miss him!

Dang *******!  Thanks from me too!  You may have shined a little light on something that has been a big puzzlement to me.  We were discussing just a few days ago the way the DeVries investigation went down.  Many expressed concern that the infiltration was known months earlier by the OM in Aruba, and that Joran had been "prepped" during his last detainment.  The thing nagging me was why Joran, since he and the prosecution certainly knew of the infiltration, was so upset after the DeVries special when P & W interviewed him by phone on their show?  He was clearly very upset, and that didn't jive with his obvious knowledge of the "secret" taping.

I think you  just brought me the answer!  Is it possible that Joran expected (along with the OM) that Peter DeVries would turn over the video tapes to the OM instead of airing them on his show?  Did Joran et al expect that the tapes would be buried with the OM along with every other piece of evidence that has been gathered, and that his Dad and buddies would take care of it as always?  Is it possible that Joran came unglued on the
P & W show because he did not originally anticipate the world hearing and viewing those tapes? 

I think so!

Peter DeVries has done us more of a service than I originally believed.  The OM in Aruba would love to have hidden these video's away like everything else in this case.  Anyone who believes Peter DeVries has harmed an investigation that the OM in Aruba would have conducted, has not been paying attention.

MOO

Helen

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  Ok, I'll bite.

The GoldMonkey forum was set up by an ex-SM poster by the name of Carnut.  It's more of a chit chatty place with a chat room and a fun place for people that enjoy that kind of thing to hang out. 


Edited to add:  Again I find your questions confusing.  You have a member of BNH that is also a member of SM and GoldMonkey, why don't you just ask them?  Or did Reality send you over here to post the question just to see what the reaction would be?

  ::MonkeyConfused::

Lala'sMom .... it was OK when SS brought Shango stuff over to the Natalee Holloway discussion thread yesterday because it related to the dialogue ... a dialogue you were were part of.

However ... today I brought Shango stuff over to the Natalee Holloway discussion thread because it related to the dialogue and ... according to you and SS ... that is a no no.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Anyways ... post are brought over to the Natalee Holloway discussion thread from other threads and other sites all the time if they relate to the dialogue.

Janet

+++++++++++

SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #759 6/18 -
« Reply #973 on: June 22, 2008, 11:47:19 PM »

Dirty hand stays hidden, but all are well-fed.

We must have a sacrifice
Hide dirty hand

If cowboys see dirty hand, many teepees fall. House of Babylon falls.
we must have a sacrifice to feed the cowboys.
they go back to the fort with no loot.

Arawaks worried about being caught with dirty hand

The sacrifice is the correct food to appease the gods, arawaks, and cowboys
but the foundations of the house of babylon will shake
even harder if Arawak Dirty Hand is revealed

Arawaks fear wrath of cowboys for DirtyHand
But babylonians live in teepees too
If the house of babylon is to remain erect, it must protect the babylonians who have lived in teepees, among the arawaks, for a long time.
babylon will agree to a sacrifice of newer teepee dwellers to prevent the story of dirtyhand being made public
Dirtyhand scares arawaks too
the sacrifice will be the correct sacrifice to appease the gods and cowboys
cowboys will leave without loot

The Arawaks are not going to sacrifice a scapegoat
Babylon needs to allow one sacrifice to keep DirtyHand hidden
Babylon scared of DirtyHand
Arawaks scared of DirtyHand
If sacrifice is made, teepees are safe, villagers and cowboys happy
If DirtyHand discovered, House of Babylon falls, Teepees crushed under great house


The babylonians are to blame.
The arawaks were worried about teepees and the cowboys.
They did not bring DirtyHand into the Tribe!

Even if you play cards in the house of babylon as an arawak, you still have DirtyHand.
If DirtyHand comes out of hiding, Babylon will fall and the cowboys will circle the wagons.
DirtyHand can destroy the Arawaks and Babylon.

DirtyHand is well known

All fear DirtyHand

DirtyHand is alive and well

As long as DirtyHand is not found
Aruba is preserved and Babylon will pay the price

DirtyHand and the fallen judge may not be crucified

DirtyHand is not an Arawak
Many pioneers have settled with the tribe

The card of babylon was already played
if it sings, DirtyHand will bring down the Royal House on top of the Arawak Nation

DirtyHand walks with the elders

DirtyHand knows the Babylonians that provided escort after the 2 shivas left

Are the children of the elders there, or did they flee to Babylon?
DirtyHand knows, this is his Power

DirtyHand walks in ALL houses
houses of the Arawaks, and houses of Rave
He can break the alibi

DirtyHand can break the Alibi, he walks all circles
The Simian knows this

Find DirtyHand! He too walked in this house of Babylon.
But not to satiate desire.

DirtyHand is not a child of Babylon
He holds the real key (video?)
The Arawaks fear his exposure
The house of babylon would tumble down on the teepees of the Arawaks
DirtyHand knows the cowboys will leave lootless.
He can break the alibi

Coverups begin with elders and the founders of the houses of Babylon
Not the minions
DirtyHand knows this

DirtyHand is the key
He walks with the elders
He walks in all houses
And he walked with the fallen elder
he was the hidden card that was played
now if he sings, babylon will fall on the arawak nation

DirtyHand has worked for the elders for a long time

DirtyHand walks with the Babylons, the Arawaks and is consort to the fallen elder

DirtyHand can bring down all houses
DirtyHand is the key
His reach is long
He walks in all circles
consort to all, except for the gods
He knows the sacrifice is not responsible

Young Babylonians and Shivas do not build sand castles
DirtyHand knows this
Children of the Elders play in the maze,
but DirtyHand is afraid to rave

The maze offers many hidden desires
deflowerings of forbidden fruits
DirtyHand knows.
So does the elder.
The lamb is a scapegoat.
DirtyHand has walked through the maze
He knows of the forbidden fruit
and the gardeners

DirtyHand does not play with the lions
but he has entered the maze
the lamb is a scapegoat
DirtyHand knows
So does the Elder

DirtyHand knows, but is afraid of the Arawak Nation.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2938.msg392277#msg392277


MumInOhio
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #759 6/18 -
« Reply #978 on: June 22, 2008, 11:54:31 PM »

SS...So is Jossy Dirty Hand or Shango?…I think he fits somewhere!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2938.msg392277#msg392277


Lala'sMom
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #759 6/18 -
« Reply #979 on: June 22, 2008, 11:54:59 PM »

What do all those businesses owned by Jossy do?  I have asked this over and over.  Does anyone know if they are legit or not? 

Let's look at this as a hypothetical...

If Shango says that dirty hand it the key to everything and we assume that dirty hand or one of them is JM...then that means that Shango can not be JM since he has outed dirty hand with this info...so that leaves someone that has a grudge or a score to settle with said person.  Just thinking here...actually I have been thinking this for some time, just have a chance to throw it out there for discussion. 

My next question is one I have asked over and over too...is there a connection between Ernesto and Jossy?  Still working on that one...there are some really intelligent thinkers on here...surely someone has some thoughts on this.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2938.960

Good nite Monkeys. Calling it a night.  Too much Jossy tonight for me ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyHaHa::i just hope the golden monkey does not get a golden shower.

Klass hope u are back to 100%!

Love,
FOM

FOM - thanks for asking - I am  ::MonkeyCool::

ty Klass..glad u are well again.

Thanks for all that you do!

Prayers for Natalee and her family.

Nite monkeys

Nite FOM

Nite FOM!   ::MonkeyCool::

My thoughts on the Patrick tapes and what Joran is up to..>>MOO

I still think Joran was looking for a big pay day and Patrick's book is the answer. It wasn't gonna come from suing anyone,writing books or a big movie deal. Here he is the star in the biggest missing persons case in history and he has no money,no future and he's been assured he will never be prosecuted. He most certainly has no intentions of finishing school or working hard for a career,it's too late for that as this case messed up his life and people are always challenging him that he is a murderer and a liar. He deserves a big payday for all his troubles and being so famous. In his mind anyway.

The video serves a dual purpose,he owes Aruba a ending so they can move on and close this case forever and to end the negative media that affects there precious tourism. Joran is stuck with no future and no money,So what if he has to reveal some bad things about himself or even make things up. He doesn't like the cold and holland much anyway and for a few hundred thousand to a million,he would gladly leave the country for a nice Beach house in spain or elsewhere in the caribbean.

The false tape had to be believable but couldn't implicate those involved or those that covered up Natalee's murder and dissapearance and Joran had to be careful what he admitted to. After much thought of thinking of a false ending without anyone going to Prison or releasing the truth, they though of this Daury who could take the rest of the blame and finally give everyone closure and a ending. Natalee dying of a cocaine overdose didn't lead to any good endings or closure so they had to think of something else.

They threw in a few things to make it believable,like Joran's early confession that Natalee had seizures and Joran taking all the blame for being a dirtbag and a liar and responsible for everything except dumping Nats body. Announce that Paulus was sleeping,the Kalpoes are innocent and stupid and him and daury are to blame for everything,well mostly Daury since Natalee could of been alive and he dumped her at sea. Daury,of course he will never be found,but the Dutch and ALE will announce they did there best to find him and will always be on the lookout for fresh tips since Joran won't give him up. This gives Beth Peace,Closes the case forever and Joran gets a fat check where he can live anonymously in a country that he likes and can live in peace. Patrick was more then happy to oblige as he gets 50% of the take and did a great service to his country. Joran will stay most of the summer in Thailand until the smoke clears and the book profits start rolling in.

Case solved,Beths at peace and everyone is Happy..Even Joran  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I didn't realize that Reality was a member there and NO I have not been sent by Reality for ANYTHING....I have not seen Reality this evening but am sure I will hear from him tomorrow...and I was also under the impression he was not a member here either....point being I don't care where he or anyone else is a member of....

I have not been allowed to be a member at GoldMonkeys..(although I swear I believe I was a member before)....anyway....I have been turned down for a very stupid reason IMO...that reason being who the others are that post on other forums that I post on....in other words...I am not allowed to be a member because  "due to your association with certain people who have involved themselves in the case with not so good intentions we cannot approve your membership at this time."....that's the reason I was given and it's not the first time I have heard this excuse before...any comments?

Well I can't answer for Goldmonkey forum and I'm not a member there although I do read it from time to time.  Since I'm not a member I don't go into their chat room.   It is their right to choose who they want to approve for membership and frankly don't need a reason at all.  There are some people that would NEVER be approved here at SM too.  There are some that are approved and later banned.  At least Goldmonkey and Scared Monkeys have one thing in common, they are open for all to read.  Some forums won't even allow people to read unless they are a member  ::MonkeyCool::

I just couldn't understand being turned down because I post on different forums with different people....didn't see why it would matter so much...thanks for the comments klaasend....I'll just continue to read....I just hate to be "blacklisted" because of another person when I have done nothing wrong....thanks again.....

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyCool::

So funny to me.......I'm here every day and I never even heard of it. ::MonkeyHaHa::

You aren't "black listed" here as long as you don't bad mouth Natalee or members of her family.  Please continue to read and post.

Thank you....I never have and never will.....

Me neither!  However ... I could care less about other forums ... too distracting.

At times I get emails instructing me to go to a particular forum because I am the topic of the dialogue.  I decline.

When RU created a thread a while back entitled "TAMIKOSBUM" I made the decision not to stray.

It really is true ... ignorance is bliss.

Well ... three days without coffee.  So far ... so good.  It is not affecting me at all.  I am sure you will all agree ... I am as sweet as usual.

 ::MonkeyCool::

Good Night Monkeys

Janet
10:00 PM

Nite Janet  ::MonkeyHaHa::

About 14 years ago I went off caffeine (coffee) for a while, actually about a year.  It wasn't horrible after the first day or so.  Back drinking it now but not alot, only one cup in the morning and one in the afternoon.

I never read other forums.  I like keepin my lil slate all clean. 

Janet, what are you doing not drinking coffee?  Why would a person do that? 

I love my coffee, so I'm going to sleep now, so I can wake up and have my coffee. :)
 
Nighty night monkeys.

Nite Helen

Good night Janet! This weekend our air conditioning was on the blink....talk about misery...Sunday morning I chose iced tea instead of my regular hot coffee...it was 90 degrees at 10pm last night when the repairman finally came and brought relief!  I was so glad to have my hot cup of coffee this morning.  I'm sure you've quit for a good reason and I'm proud of you!

Good night everyone!

 ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: nite Helen!   ::MonkeyCool::

I am supporting my long time neighbour/friend in her battle to quit smoking.  I do believe that she is fairing better than me.  However ... we both better watch it.  We each had a DONUT (?) ... me with my green tea and her with her coffee ... early this evening at the local coffee shop.  We have NEVER purchased a goodie with our coffees in the past.

Maybe there is a 12 step program in the community for those who are attempting to kick the coffee addiction.

Maybe ... I will go and make myself a coffee right now.  She will never know.

Oh woe is me!

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Janet

Janet,
Now there is the "new" news that you can get a caffeine high from the smell of coffee. I guess it's like second hand smoke!

I know she will not get this until she gets up...but Destiny,
can you ask your source about the broadcast I mentioned earlier where a reporter is following a car with Natalee in it the night she disappeared?  Maybe DePox's car?  Kind of sounded like they were driving her to Venezuela. (water, I know).

O/t  Am bringing this question here because of the Super Monkey Sleuths!

A person goes missing. The person lives in "X" County and the family files a missing person's report there. The person, however, is last seen in "Y" County.

Both counties are in the same state. Let's say there are no clues and the personal is still missing... what I mean neither county has substantial clues as to where the missing person is or what happened.

Who has jurisdiction? The county where the missing person lived, report made or the the county where the missing person was last seen?

Of course, in Aruba, they are still figuring out jurisdiction and it's one small island, one small country ::MonkeyRoll:: TIA

PS.. if you pick the county where the missing person lived, report made, are there any important reasons, anyone know, of why, by chance, the county of where the missing person was last seen would take jurisdiction?

I think that is a good enough reason to not allow you to post.  If you are posting with individuals that aren't trusted why would I jeopardize my members and allow you to post on the forum or even go into chat.  If you came into chat and I was there I would have to stop talking because I wouldn't trust you and you might take what I was saying over to the other forum so these other people could see.  And when I say information I mean I could be chatting about my family or something.  Why should I share that information with you when it could get into the hands of people that you associate with and post bad about Natalee.  Bottom line is I would disapprove you also.

I'll give you an example.  If you post with Charlierat or a few others I can think of I would never approve you to become a member.  Safety first and Charlierat doesn't fit that criteria.  If you do post with others who are a member I am sure they are trusted enough to allow them to become a member.  If they find out later that they were wrong then poor judgment on their part.

Volkskrant today ( translate it via google ) ::MonkeyHaHa::

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article1034414.ece/Het_is_de_gangster_in_mij_die_ik_terug_heb_gehaald



(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/7copy.jpg?t=1214297494)

trans inv :
(http://www.volkskrant.nl/multimedia/archive/00117/Goede_Patrick___sle_117132p.jpg)
"It's the gangster in me that I've met back '
By Menno van Dongen and Maud Effting
published on June 24, 2008 08:31, updated on June 24, 2008 09:38

Patrick van der Eem (35) led Joran van der Sloot for hidden cameras statements about his role in the case of Natalee Holloway in Aruba in 2005. After the TV broadcast of Peter R. de Vries in February he says in the book Wednesday Discards his story.

  Saturday you all five rounds with Joran van der Sloot under the coke?
"One hundred percent. Did not you show me to my nose? "

How much you spent per day?
'Two, three grams. Man, I was seven months under the cocaine. "

Why did you do that then?
"Joran felt something. I myself had imposed and I felt that he thought, ho, breeding, where did this guy come from? Is it not a policeman? And when I started to sniffing for his nose. Every day. Thus, the doubts about him.

'Cocaine makes you emotieloos. That I needed, otherwise I had a little boy who calls. At the end I slept two or three hours per night. But listen: I can hang up a beautiful story, but nobody has said that I had. I'm an addict. You manipulates yourself. I wanted sniffing, man. I spent a year not more, but I was looking for an excuse. "

Used Joran also coke?
"Joran did gesnoven agree with me. Not in the car. And even for the journeys. In the beginning I also once smoked crack on his nose. Joran then lifting, but it's nothing for him. He became panicky. Crack is also my weakness. I can sniffing so much I want, but do I get a crack devil. Paranoid. With a gun behind the door. "

Saturday you with a gun on Joran flat?
"Yes, that I had often with me, do you? It is purely to show who you are. And to avoid problems in the environment. "

Did ABC, the American broadcaster who bought the broadcast, that you used cocaine in the car?
"I do not know for sure. Peter R. de Vries has images from the raw material cut and against ABC said: this is all. In order to protect me - even though I had not asked. "

Why was never said that you used?
'Because it did not matter. It is about what Joran told. I have all the questions that Peter gave me,. On my way. "

De Vries writes in the foreword that you have a good job, but he calls you hufterig and unacceptable by the coke. You tried him and regarded him as commander you bitch. " It was wait and see who they found: Good or Bad Patrick Patrick. De Vries has a couple of times at the point before stopping.
"What Peter writes, is correct. It is the gangster in me that I've met back. Joran was looking for someone so. He was very excited. I had the gangster away when I stepped from the drug trade. I was previously mandatory. A manipulator. This can not in one go off. And it's still there. If someone aankijkt me, I think what you're breeding must boy? "

Were you the biggest drug dealer of Arnhem?
'If you're 300, 400 grams of heroin per day sells, you're a pretty long way. On my 18th I had several homes in Arnhem where dealers sold to me. I had made money and tackle everything. With whores, everything. I paid for everyone. If we had a feast, we took just 50 grams of coke and that we snov. We had evenings where we 15 thousand guilders in a single format. Clothes? That I once wore. Then I threw them away.

"If I Joran at that time had met, and I had not believed him, then I had him taken to the forest. Then I have to ensure that everything he told me, haha. And if Natalee had been my child, I had him driven through his head shot. "

To show off a little Joran told you about the first corpse that you saw. Zag you that much?
"I've seen similar, but not from people I've dealt with something. I have seen a man that the finger was cut off. Tsjak. But I will never name names. I can keep secrets. I think that I am not yet in this book eenvijftigste of my past have told. Later perhaps. But I've still things that need to be extinguished. "

What about now with your scar?
"I still got money from a boy. Because he is not paid, I sold him badly cut heroin, and when he came back angry. Because I trusted him, I set up my honkbalknuppel down. Then he grabbed a knife and cut me.

"I've never done declaration. I thought, but you wait. One day I gave him aangereden. He wanted to cross and I thought, okay, bam. I rode hard. He flew as the car around. I grabbed a bat and wanted to kill him. But a friend gave me. I've never seen that boy. "

You come from a wealthy family. What they found your drugscarrière?
'It was a tragedy for them. I have incredibly smart parents. It is not fine if the police against you say your son is one of the whole. But what could they do? My father gave me great cars when I was working with him, but I'm an entrepreneur. I had my own 'franchise'.

"When I was 15, I no longer lived at home and I was caught with 66 grams of heroin and 8,000 guilders and cash. That is not normal.

"The turnaround came on my 22th. My wife became pregnant. When I later had to sit a year for drugs, I knew: never again. My father is multimillionaire. He has helped me my business. I sell hydraulic hoses and make annual 200 thousand euros profit. "

Why would you deal with Joran?
"Because of the suffering that he has dealt with Aruba. And to the mother of Natalee. But my ego also played a role. I am a man, I have a piemel and piemels be hard. At the moment you just do what others can not, the FBI, the CIA, the police ... Anyone looking for, and Patrick find. Well, then I feel it tough. "

Why did you Peter R. de Vries' fokking amateur '?
"I have great respect for Peter, but he said there is easy. Sometimes I came home with the images and then cause them to look away immediately. Then I thought: get the cancer man, I'm not a whore. I grab you, I cut your throat loose, do you, Mr. De Vries? This was also the coke hear. I sat all that time in excitement and then driving away as you? That you can not create. "

Before you went to De Vries, you spoke with the police. You wanted Joran with a wietkwekerij creation and leave him there eavesdropping. Since the police do not cooperate?
'Come on. They have containers with cocaine inside emerge during the IRT affair. What is a wietplantage? They had months to eavesdropping. If they had done this, that case was one hundred percent sure. "

Why you demanded 300 thousand euros from the police?
"I invented but an amount. It fell to negotiate. I have three times with the Criminal Intelligence Unit talk. But the only thing they wanted was that I was drugsinfiltrant. They had no interest in Joran van der Sloot. Total not. The third time I said: breeding you. When detective who said: ga but to Peter R. de Vries.

"I've De Vries 250 thousand euros requested. But that was not me. That is obvious, because I took pleasure with 25 thousand euros expenses and almost half of the revenue from the sale of nieuwsclips. That would yield little, they said. Nevertheless, I received 300 thousand euros, because ABC paid 830 thousand dollars. Europe also yielded money. "

You know who Natalee dumped into the sea, eh?
'That is speculate. But I know it. Joran has me in the beginning of a name. He said that no boy who has done something, but that he done a lot with him. When I called to the police in Aruba gave, they were crazy, because it confirmed their own suspicions. They were two names. One is the day after the disappearance of Natalee departed from Aruba. He is a queer from a wealthy family. The police asked me if Joran bisexual tendencies. "

Why is Justice does not go with the research, do you think?
"I do not know. The OM has a trump card. Before the end of the year, they agreed. How do I know? I have long arms. I think they make good chance for a breakthrough. That is my only hope. "

Joran goes far freely. Is the operation has not failed?
"I had found the fine when he was arrested, but it's beyond my power. The most important thing is that Natales mother knows what happened. In my book I want everything shut down. It is a bestseller. I want to go to America, to Oprah Winfrey. That will succeed. "

You got to the coke and your wife left you almost. Was it worth it?
"All I had received nothing, then it was worth it. I have enough human misery and contempt now give back what I once. It is not about money. I am a millionaire. And there are still many millions. I have smuggled cocaine and slangetjes I can sell. I can both very good. And I am the allerbekendste slangenverkoper of the world.

"The rehabilitation is heavy, but the last three weeks I have no more coke. Yet there comes a day I again ga sniffing. It is far too good, man. But daily use is not an option. I would now a good father and husband. "

Do you have contact with Joran?
'No. I have nothing with him. He's just a psychopath, man. He asked me: Patrick, did you ever been my friend? I said, but wait until the broadcast. He's just a project. "

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://danscafebarenboos.web-log.nl/danscafebarenboos/2008/06/patrick-van-der.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=10&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpatrick%2Bvan%2Bder%2Beem%2Buses%2Bcocaine%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DNZO%26sa%3DN

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/4304586/__Onder_de_coke_tijdens_Joran-tapes___.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpatrick%2Bvan%2Bder%2Beem%2Bcocaine%26start%3D50%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

 ::MonkeyDance::

I also once smoked crack on his nose. -Patrick Van der eem



Hey Patrick,

YOU LOSER.... Don't you mean, I once got my nose smoked

while attempting to ram it up Joran Van der sloot's crack?




> It is on your BOOKEN, in which I choose to do an overwhelming majority

of my buzzarden shooten. You JACKASS!!!!!!!!!!!

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

I have read these translated stories 3 times now along with Carpe's article. I really hope I'm reading these wrong. My stomach is getting sick.

*Corrected to say Johan's article

Joran goes far freely. Is the operation has not failed?
"I had found the fine when he was arrested, but it's beyond my power. The most important thing is that Natales mother knows what happened. In my book I want everything shut down. It is a bestseller. I want to go to America, to Oprah Winfrey. That will succeed. "



NO, NATALEE'S MOMMA DOES NOT KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH, PAT.


AS I STATED BEFORE... YOU ARE AN IDIOT.


"Youuuuuu are a BUMMMMMM!!!!" - Jackie Gleason


This American hopes somebody will come along, and even up your sideburns soon.

> YOU SON OF A BITCH.  (excuse me ladies)

Patrick is a POS in plain english.


Why isn't Guido's lawyer going after Patrick.  He goes after Joran but not Patrick.

"I want everything shut down."

He must think he has a lot of power.  This is all BS and I don't believe one thing he says.  They better not allow him in our country.  Keep this POS out.

I agree, San...From day one, I have not trusted Patrick, and skipped over most of the discussion concerning him. Saved me a lot of reading back in February!...LOL

The only reason, I am undecided on Peter De Vries is because of the faith our Dutch posters have in him!

Maybe the gay guy that fled Aruba, from a wealthy family was not Guido...just thinking out loud...would explain why his outspoken lawyer has remained quiet...nothing to defend....

Everyone needs to go to the Oprah website and make sure she does not invite this POS to be on her show.
Anyone who buys his book is a POS IMO because they are supporting his BS.
Rant over.

Holloway tapes: Van der Eem used cocaine

Tuesday 24 June 2008

Patrick van der Eem, the man who got Joran van der Sloot to confess to being with American teenager Natalie Holloway when she died, was heavily under the influence of cocaine while making the secret recordings, the Volkskrant reports on Tuesday.

In a long interview to mark the publication of his book Overboard, Van der Eem talks of his cocaine addiction, his feelings towards Van der Sloot and tv presenter Peter R de Vries, and the money he has earned from the confession.

Van der Eem, a convicted drugs dealer, worked with De Vries on a tv show about the girl's disappearance on the holiday island of Aruba in 2005. Van der Eem made several car journeys with Van der Sloot in which he talked about how Natalee died and how her body was dumped at sea.

He told the paper he took cocaine to remove any doubts Van der Sloot had about him. 'Joran sensed something... so I began to take it in front of him every day.' Van der Eem said he took between two and three grammes of cocaine a day for a seven-month period.

Van der Sloot also took cocaine with him but not during the car journeys shown on the tv programme, Van der Eem said. However, the tv clips do show Van der Sloot smoking marijuana.

He also admits to the paper that his ego played a role in unmasking Van der Sloot. ´When you can do something which others can't, the FBI, the CIA, the police... Everyone was looking and Patrick finds. Then you feel yourself to be a tough guy.'

US tv station ABC paid $830,000 to broadcast the show, Van der Eem said.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/06/holloway_tapes_van_der_eem_use.php

Didn't he have visa problem, because of a prior conviction? If so, he won't be back in the US.


Thanks Mrskub...that article is exactly why I didn't buy his story and have most about him...what an egotistical....

All he did was put Joran and an unknown as the ones responsible for Natalee's disappearance....thinks he is smarter than everyone else....

Not to be rude but how do u feel about our Government who has been documented to have brought these substances into this country ie Iran Cintra. This Country would be alot better off to legalize and tax the crap out of it. To control it. Let us all face it that the drug problem is not going to stop by us throwing more money at trying to seize illegal shipments, it DOES NOT WORK!!!. You legalize it and take the dark side out of the equation and then they will move on to more lucrative businesses JMHO

I totally disagree about legalizing it.  You legalize it and this way people who can't afford it rob and murder so they can buy it.  Or you legalize it and this way they get behind the wheel of a car and kill more people.  We have enough to handle with people driving drunk and killing people.

Legalize it to get the drug dealers off the street.  If we legalize all of it we will have nothing but a stoned country.

I'm off to work have a good day everyone.

Thank you DayHiker
On aruba they have the usual underworld and then they have the upperworld(government,politics,corruptions and unprosecuted crimes depending on who you know and what YOU can do for THEM).Then you have the arubans who live and work there,the every day people who are stuck in the middle world,the ones who don't want to join the upperworld(or are not allowed to)and some of them are forced into the underworld of drugs and crimes.
Give me my America any day!
I like my life choices better.

Patric slip of the T ?

He asked me: Patrick, did you ever been my friend? I said,  wait until the broadcast.

I the article ::Hij vroeg me: Patrick, ben je ooit mijn vriend geweest? Ik zei: wacht maar tot de uitzending.

WHat a joke! Patrick received 300,000 euros and did 2-3 grams a coke daily ::MonkeyEek:: ..I guess we know how Joran is able to travel and party in Thailand. That should get them both through the summer until the book sales roll in   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Posted this on the FP earlier today.

The book of Patrick van der Eem is about to come out (or allready has?). Here’s an interview with Patrick in the dutch Volkskrant ( http://tinyurl.com/5vqlgp )

Translation Google and me (Because I don’t have much time, I only translated the parts where Google went absolutely wrong. So it’s often crappy English).

————

“It’s the gangster in me that I’ve met back ‘

By Menno van Dongen and Maud Effting; published on June 24, 2008 08:31, updated on June 24, 2008 09:38

Patrick van der Eem (35) elicited Joran van der Sloot for hidden cameras statements about his role in the case of Natalee Holloway in Aruba in 2005. After the TV broadcast of Peter R. de Vries in February he tells in the book ‘Overboard’ his story.

Were you on coke all five rides with Joran van der Sloot?
“One hundred percent. Didn’t you see me touch my nose? ”

How much did you use per day?
‘Two, three grams. Man, I was seven months under the cocaine. ”

Why did you do that then?
“Joran felt something. I myself had imposed and I felt that he thought, ho, f*ck, where did this guy come from? Is it not a policeman? And then I started to take cocaine before him. Every day. Thus, his doubts disappeared.

‘Cocaine makes you emotieloos. That I needed, otherwise I would have hurt this guy. At the end I slept two or three hours per night. But listen: I can hang up a beautiful story, but nobody has said that I had to take the coke. I’m an addict. You manipulate yourself. I wanted sniffing, man. I didn’t use a year no more, but I was looking for an excuse. ”

Used Joran also coke?
“Joran did sniff along with me. Not in the car. Nor for the rides. In the beginning I also once smoked crack under his nose. Joran then took one puff himself, but it’s nothing for him. He became panicky. Crack is also my weakness. I can take coke so much I want, but with crack i’m a devil. Paranoid. Sitting with a gun behind the door. ”

Were you with a gun on Jorans flat?
“Yes, that I had often with me, you know? It is purely to show who you are. And to avoid problems in the ‘milieu’. ”

Did ABC, the American broadcaster who bought the show, that you used cocaine in the car?
“I do not know for sure. Peter R. de Vries has cut all images from the raw material and to ABC he said: this is all. In order to protect me - even though I had not asked. ”

Why was never said that you used?
‘Because it did not matter. It is about what Joran told. I have asked all the questions that Peter gave me,. My way. ”

De Vries writes in the foreword that you have a good job, but he calls you cocky and unbearable on coke. You tried to command him and regarded him as ‘your bitch’. ” It was wait and see who they found: Good Patrick or Bad Patrick. De Vries a couple of times was at the point off stopping.
“What Peter writes, is correct. It is the gangster in me that I’ve met back. Joran was looking for someone like that. He was very excited. I had the gangster away when I stepped from the drug trade. I was previously coercive. A manipulator. You can’t turn that off immediatly. And it’s still there. If someone looks at me, I think ‘what the f*ck do you want dude? ”

Were you the biggest drug dealer of Arnhem?
‘If you sell 300, 400 grams of heroin per day, you’re a pretty long way. On my 18th I had several homes in Arnhem where dealers sold for me. I had stacks of money and squandered everything. With whores, everything. I paid for everyone. If we had a feast, we took just 50 grams of coke and that we snove. We had evenings where we spend 15 thousand guilders in one go. Clothes? That I once wore. Then I threw them away.

“If I Joran at that time had met, and I had not believed him, then I had him taken to the forest. Then I would have made sure that everything he told me, haha. And if Natalee had been my child, I would have shot him through his head. ”

To show off a little Joran told you about the first corpse that you saw. Did you see much dead bodies?
“I’ve seen some, but not from people I hurt. I did see a mans finger was cut off. Tsjak. But I will never name names. I can keep secrets. I think that in this book I am not telling one-fifthiest of my past. Later perhaps. But I’ve still things that need to become barred/extinguished. ”

What about your scar?
“I still got money from a boy. Because he had not paid, I sold him badly cut/diluted heroin, and then he came back angry. Because I trusted him, I set up my baseball-bat down. Then he grabbed a knife and cut me.

“I’ve never made official complaints. I just thought, ‘you wait’. One day I hit him with my car. He wanted to cross and I thought, okay.., BAM. I drove fast. He flew over the car. I grabbed a bat and wanted to kill him. But a friend stopped me. I’ve never seen that guy again. ”

You come from a wealthy family. What did they think of your drugscarrière?
‘It was a tragedy for them. I have incredibly decent parents. It is not fine if the police against you say your son is to become one of the biggest. But what could they do? My father gave me great cars when I was working with him, but I’m an entrepreneur. I had my own “franchise” (…).

“When I was 15, I no longer lived at home and I was caught with 66 grams of heroin and 8,000 guilders and cash. That is not normal.

“The turnaround came on my 22th. My wife became pregnant. When I later had to sit a year for drugs, I knew: never again. My father is multimillionaire. He has helped me set up my business. I sell hydraulic hoses and make annual 200 thousand euros profit. ”

Why would you deal with Joran?
“Because of the suffering that he has dealt with Aruba. And to the mother of Natalee. But my ego also played a role. I am a man, I have a willy and willies get hard… The moment you do what others can not, the FBI, the CIA, the police … Everyone is looking for something.., and Patrick finds it. Well, then I feel tough. ”

Why did you think Peter R. de Vries’ was a ‘fokking amateur ‘?
“I have great respect for Peter, but he was very easy about it. Sometimes I came home with the recordings and then they immediately drove off to watch them. Then I thought: ‘you have cancer man’..; I’m not a whore. I’ll get you, I cut your throat, get it, Mr. De Vries? That was because of the coke you know. I all that time was very excitement/anxious and then driving away like that? You can’t do that. ”

Before you went to De Vries, you spoke with the police. You - fakinly - wanted to set up a marihuana-nursery and have him bugged there. You know the police can’t cooperate with that?
‘Come on. They have had containers full of cocaine slipped inside the country; that all came out during the IRT affair (parliamentary investigation into the [undercover etc.} methods of the police). What is a weedplantage than? They could have overheard him for months… If they had done this, that case was one hundred percent solved. ”

Why you demanded 300 thousand euros from the police?
“I invented but an amount. It could be bargained. I have talked three times with the Criminal Intelligence Unit. But the only thing they wanted was that I would become a drug-infiltrant. They had no interest in Joran van der Sloot. Totaly not. The third time I said: f*ck you. Then a detective said: go to Peter R. de Vries.

“I’ve De Vries 250 thousand euros requested. But that was not what it was about for me. That is clear, because I in the end was content with 25 thousand euros expenses and almost half of the revenue from the sale of newsclips. That would yield little, they said. Nevertheless, I received 300 thousand euros, because ABC paid 830 thousand dollars. Europe also yielded money. ”

You know who Natalee dumped into the sea, eh?
‘That is speculation. But I know it. Joran has mentioned a name in the beginning. He didn’t saiy that person had done something, but that he was befriended with him. When I told the police in Aruba that name, they got crazy, because it confirmed their own suspicions. There were two names. One the day after the disappearance of Natalee has left Aruba. He is a queer from a wealthy family. The police asked me if Joran had bisexual tendencies. ”

Why is Justice getting forward with the research, do you think?
“I do not know. The OM has one trump card left. Before the end of the year, they will come out with that. How do I know? I have long arms. I think they make good chance for a breakthrough. That is my only hope. ”

Joran still is free. Is the operation has not failed?
“I would have found it great if he was arrested, but it’s beyond my power. The most important thing is that Natales mother knows what happened. In my book I want to have a closure. It will be a bestseller. I want to go to America, to Oprah Winfrey. That will succeed. ”

You got hooked to the coke again and your wife left you almost. Was it worth it?
“Even if I had received nothing, then it was still worth it. I have caused many people misery and now I can give back something once. It is not about money. I am a millionaire. And there will come still many more millions. I have smuggled cocaine and soled hoses. I can do both very good. And I am the most famous hoseseller of the world.

“Kickin’ the coke-habit is heavy, but the last three weeks I have had no coke. Yet there comes a day I again ga sniffing. It is far too good, man. But daily use is not an option. I now want to be a good father and husband. ”

Do you have contact with Joran?
‘No. I have nothing with him. He’s just a psychopath, man. He asked me: Patrick, did you ever been my friend? I said: wait until the broadcast. He was just a project.

San I'm with you, Lorain you are posting with people who bashed Beth and Natalee.
Also posting with posters who twist the truth.
Did Reality send you over here again to find answers because you guys have none at you site.

I can't speak for all the members at Carnut's, but I will try to give the best answer I can to LoRain's question, since I am a member there also.

Our chat at Carnut's has become, in some ways, our own small support group. When people have illnesses or family problems, we bring them to the chat for advice. Because of that, we have all made a promise that what we say in chat will not leave chat (kind of like being in Vegas, LOL). Seriously, though, we have talked about problems a member is having with their health, another member's divorce proceedings, another person's financial issues, etc. We are there to help each other as much as we can. If we don't know someone well enough to trust that they won't repeat the personal information, then members are iffy about allowing them to join.

All our chats are not totally about serious personal stuff. We spend a lot of time swapping recipes, looking at items on ebay that some members sell, looking at photos of people's dogs dressed up in cute outfits, discussing current events, etc. We do sometimes do a little discussion of Natalee's case, but most people who want to discuss the case do that mainly here at SM.

Not allowing someone to join is not meant as an insult. It only means that the group there doesn't feel comfortable discussing their personal business in front of some.

I hope this helps.

Notice how he did not name the other name and says earlier he will never name names. These tapes are all BS and it's criminal they are making millions off of lies. The questions you and Peter asked were brilliant..At least for the Perps and Aruba  ::MonkeyNoNo::
------------------------------------------

Did ABC, the American broadcaster who bought the show, that you used cocaine in the car?
“I do not know for sure. Peter R. de Vries has cut all images from the raw material and to ABC he said: this is all. In order to protect me - even though I had not asked. ”

Why was never said that you used?
‘Because it did not matter. It is about what Joran told. I have asked all the questions that Peter gave me,. My way. ”

Thank you for all the translations.

EURObert, it's nice to see you in the cage.

For someone to brag about all the money he has,how rich his daddy is,it sure makes me wonder why Patrick would ask for money from ale for this joran info.
Also notice he mentions that joran mentioned 2 names....assuming one is daury and the other is Guido?

NICE CATCH, JOHAN!!!


Why would he be discussing the De Vries broadcast with Joran the moron,

before it even aired. Supposedly, Joran was clueless.


WELL HE STILL IS CLUELESS... but that is another post entirely!

He sure sounds like a coked-up Patrick to me.  Is he sure he hasn't had any in 3 weeks?

They must have had to edit the hell out of those tapes! Everytime Patrick's nose started to bleed from the 2-3 grams of coke he was doing as that wouldn't be good to sell to ABC. But most importantly anytime Joran spoke of anyone other then himself or a fictitious Daury.
---------------------------
This is all a sham!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree completely Mum.  As all of you monkerys know, I have been very outspoken about Patrick since day one.  He is a drug dealer and the scum of the earth.  I wonder how many promising young people have gone to their graves or had their lives ruined because of the cocaine and heroin that he has pushed.  I still strongly suspect a connection between Patrick and Daury Rodriguez who is cooling his heals in Hudson County.  He and his family were arrested right after the video aired with the name Daury.  Daury's mother was arrested carrying 8 kilos of heroin (about 20 lbs.) less than 10 miles from where I live.  Daury was later arrested with 8 kilos in the same area.  What are the chances that the heroine from Aruba has touched the lives of young people that I know personally?  The odds are pretty high.

Slightly OT, but interesting perspective -



A comment -



http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2008/06/23/Many_Dutch_prepare_for_2012_apocalypse/UPI-40461214263554/ (http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2008/06/23/Many_Dutch_prepare_for_2012_apocalypse/UPI-40461214263554/)

The book is available on Amazon.  This is an odd article. mo

Caps called it!  He said Patrick was not on the up and up.

Thank you MrsKub!
These comments below the article are very interesting.....looks like joran got one of his pulled off the 1st page lol
I like this one by joran,in de sloot ole ole ole lmao!

dat deze man niet spoort is mij geheel duidelijk. urges that this man is not entirely clear to me. Maar was het niet Joran die zijn mondje roerde. But it was not his mouth that Joran roerde. Was het niet Joran die de waarheid sprak...? Was it not Joran who spoke the truth ...? Dit doet niets af aan de bekentenis van Joran... This does not alter the admission by Joran ...
Joran, in de Sloot ole ole ole  |  12:59 | 24.06.08 Joran, in the Sloot ole ole ole | 12:59 | 24.06.08
Δ Ik heb een klacht over deze reactie

Hahaha!
Maybe he meant he once smoked crack on joran's pole....no,that can't be right,joran doesn't HAVE a pole.
::::::::snickering::::::::

Patrick states that DeVries knowingly cut out portions of his tape recordings to protect him (even though he didn't ask him to) and presented the tape to ABC as complete.

"Did ABC, the American broadcaster who bought the show, that you used cocaine in the car?
“I do not know for sure. Peter R. de Vries has cut all images from the raw material and to ABC he said: this is all. In order to protect me - even though I had not asked. ”

I have an issue with that. In the first place, if DeVries knew Patrick was doing cocaine, wouldn't the honorable thing to do to be to tell Patrick NOT to continue this. This alone puts DeVries in a poor light for me. I also wonder if ALE isn't aware of this and that is why the tapes could not be used as evidence.

:smt045 Yep,good question.

Guido did not leave the island the DAY AFTER Natalee disappeared.  I have said this before and no one listens to me...whoever this person is it is not Guido.  Guido gave a statement on June 3 and he gave notice he was leaving on June 7 and was still on Aruba June 8.  It's all in the Dr. Phil documents.  If Patrick has his facts accurate...big if there...then this person is NOT Guido.  Is anyone going hmmmmm yet? ::MonkeyWink::

We were given a few other names - JC and how about our friend EA?

For me it doesn't matter who of what Patrick  is
And what used or did in the past
He was the right person to let  Joran talk about this case , Joran  and Patrick have the same background ( drugs&Poker&women  and a Heavy nightlife )

Peter r de Vries is reliable and has a reputation

For me is important what  JORAN said on the tapes and whether that was  against a Robot or was against that Patrick does not matter!!

Which one is gay? Even Jossy has said that Guido was not the one with scratches...If I have my connections right Ernesto's grandmother was Dutch!

Excellent point Johan, I agree.

What about your scar?
“I still got money from a boy. Because he had not paid, I sold him badly cut/diluted heroin, and then he came back angry. Because I trusted him, I set up my baseball-bat down. Then he grabbed a knife and cut me.

“I’ve never made official complaints. I just thought, ‘you wait’. One day I hit him with my car. He wanted to cross and I thought, okay.., BAM. I drove fast. He flew over the car. I grabbed a bat and wanted to kill him. But a friend stopped me. I’ve never seen that guy again. ”

______

I wonder if this kid was Daury Rodriguez.  I wonder if this is why the name Daury suddenly appeared.

My YT pal.

---

1 hour ago

telegraaf



Hey Carpe,

Watch today's Dutch newspaper de Telegraaf.
There is a article about Patrick van der Eem,
saying that he used cocaine during the time he was
taping Joran.I am curious what Peter de Vries is gonna
say......well...we watch and see what's going on with
that Patrick-dude.

Greetings, xxxx

Good morning everyone,

good catch here, Johan.

Here's another clue:

He told the paper he took cocaine to remove any doubts Van der Sloot had about him. 'Joran sensed something... so I began to take it in front of him every day.' Van der Eem said he took between two and three grammes of cocaine a day for a seven-month period.

Yes, IMO Joran sensed something because he had been debriefed by the OM when he was detained before the taping.

Notice Patrick says Joran did coke with him, but not in the car, not on camera.

Both are gay.  EA is the one that we have been tracking and could have been identified by the suspect that was being held.  The other was the name that we were given that was connected to "The News" and Renfro.  They were identified as the party-goers.  The second one comes from a very wealthy family.

I agree.  I think a person like Patrick is the only kind that would have gained Joran's confidence enough to get him to talk. My questions center around whether or not Joran knew what was going down. Given what I know happens in Aruba, I am not at all certain that Joran was not tipped off ahead of time and worked out the perfect solution in hopes of ending this train wreck.