Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Natalee Holloway => LCD Archive => Topic started by: Nut44x4 on December 05, 2008, 06:54:41 AM



Title: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08
Post by: Nut44x4 on December 05, 2008, 06:54:41 AM
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/Natalee2.swf



JUSTICE FOR NATALEE


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 10:37:45 AM
JQK & Aruban Arrest Threshold

KELLY: Right. And now we have more new evidence. We have clear evidence of the cover-up between the chief of police and Paulus van der Sloot in addition to the damning admissions made by Joran van der Sloot of criminal conduct, the kidnapping and trafficking and the implication of others.

Kelly is a top-flight attorney.  He has been supported by Chadbourne & Parke, a top flight international law firm.  They have undoubtedly studied Aruban and Dutch law intensely and are certain of their standing on the merits.

This cannot simply be ignored now.

Kelly is factually correct: the threshold for arrest and questioning has been reached.

We have watched two comlpetely innocent men be arrested and detained by Aruban authorities, on far less factual statements and evidence.

Aruba: out of the frying pan and into the fire.

.

 



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 10:45:43 AM
Quote from: Frank on Today at 12:45:53 AM
If Jan van der straaten is covering up, what do you call what Hans Mos isn't not doing alot of?

jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence. And he didn't see it on the beach.

the next wall to break down is focus on where she died, the van der sloot house.

What Does van der Straten Know About Natalee Holloway?

h/t to Hasibokus - read more there.

In a Dutch interview Aruban Police Superintendent Jan van der Straten told the reporter that he doesn’t believe that Natalee is still alive.

With regard to Natalee’s status, van der Straaten gave the following statement to a Dutch reporter:

Translation:

Rep: Any hopes for a positive outcome?

Jan: You always have to be hopeful, but I don’t believe anymore that we will find Natalee alive.

Rep: Why not?

Jan: Because I know the details of the investigation and you don't!

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/what_does_van_d.html

   


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 10:46:06 AM
PRESENT!  :2waver:


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 10:46:52 AM
Brought Hammer's post over...not sure it there are others you may want...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: BUCKSHOT on December 05, 2008, 10:50:42 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 10:51:55 AM
Quote from: Frank on Today at 12:45:53 AM
If Jan van der straaten is covering up, what do you call what Hans Mos isn't not doing alot of?

jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence. And he didn't see it on the beach.

the next wall to break down is focus on where she died, the van der sloot house.

What Does van der Straten Know About Natalee Holloway?

h/t to Hasibokus - read more there.

In a Dutch interview Aruban Police Superintendent Jan van der Straten told the reporter that he doesn’t believe that Natalee is still alive.

With regard to Natalee’s status, van der Straaten gave the following statement to a Dutch reporter:

Translation:

Rep: Any hopes for a positive outcome?

Jan: You always have to be hopeful, but I don’t believe anymore that we will find Natalee alive.

Rep: Why not?

Jan: Because I know the details of the investigation and you don't!

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/what_does_van_d.html

   


I agree!! Great post! Why not sit down with JQK and discuss the case? Why not investigate what Greta has?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 10:53:52 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 10:58:36 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

I don't think anyone is lying. Buckshot we've all looked at facts and tried to put together pieces of the puzzle. Sometimes it leads to a theory that works and sometimes it doesn't. I don't think it's anymore complicated than that.

I speak from the experience of being absolutely sure that the blonde hair on the duct tape was Natalee's.  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I still say if I opened a hair accessories shop on the island, I'd be rich. If you have to resort to duct tape for hair management while surfing, there's a real opportunity there.  :roll:


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 10:59:36 AM
Quote from: Magnolia on Today at 12:50:56 AM
One thing that I find interesting is posters coming in shifts to
discredit Kermit.  It is an organized thing.
Kermit post alone and always backs up his/her post.
The others post nonsense to attempt to confuse and discredit.
There is never anything substantial.
I have tried to stay quiet today and observe and that is what I
have noticed.


No one is trying to sideswipe Kermit.  I am tired of reading this...we are trying to tell you and everyone else that Beth and Jug...both of them find the insinuations about John, Kyle and Caps ridiculous and time wasted until something else comes of it all.  Right now they are more excited about the recent revelations from Joran.  Everyone wants to dismiss it as total lies, but I tell you right now...here...the family does not discredit all of it.  They have their reason and I have been asked not to explain the reasons.  They feel that Joran saying Paulus paid certain cops to help in the cover up make more sense than most anything they have heard. They experienced things and were told things that now make perfect sense that indeed Paulus was controlling things. 

The family realizes that finding Natalee is almost impossible at this point. What they want is the same as we do...they want to see Paulus in handcuffs and people ratting each other out.  Yet, they are still guarded because the corruption goes to Rudy as well.  It's hard to get action when the person calling for action is even more corrupt than those being accused.  If Paulus knew he could pay for loyalty what can Rudy get for his money?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 11:00:32 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

I don't think anyone is lying. Buckshot we've all looked at facts and tried to put together pieces of the puzzle. Sometimes it leads to a theory that works and sometimes it doesn't. I don't think it's anymore complicated than that.

I speak from the experience of being absolutely sure that the blonde hair on the duct tape was Natalee's.  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I still say if I opened a hair accessories shop on the island, I'd be rich. If you have to resort to duct tape for hair management while surfing, there's a real opportunity there.  :roll:

I just luv ya CBB!! ((hugs))


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:00:34 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

If the family knows, or it is not significant to them (I can hardly believe this after all we've seen), perhaps there is a reason the family do not wish to admit their knowledge publicly.  Is there a plan in place to bring down the guilty all the way up to the Minister of Justice?  Is the evidence of Aruban complicity to hide Natalee's remains from the cage one major piece of the plan?  Is this evidence they will use to finally expose the corruption and in the long run, get justice for Natalee?  This is what I see as being hinted by various posters who would rather we not discuss Kermit's theory. 

While I realize that Arubans and the Dutch on Aruba operate conspiratorially, I would be surprised if the family and their legal advisors practiced this approach.  They have always been advocates of openness and truth.  That's why I have a hard time understanding some of this.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Miss-Underestimated on December 05, 2008, 11:01:11 AM
Amazing isn't it. only 30 days after Natalee went missing Jan Van der Straten

was so sure Natalee would not be found alive.  Think about all the evidence so carefully given to Karin Jaansen to take to Holland, to be disproven as anything relevant to the investigation.   All of us God fearing people know there is a special place in hell for the liars, cheats and murders, in this whole scene


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 11:01:27 AM
Before I was at SM, I don't know if anyone posted transcripts.
 I did do some in 2007 but I don't know where they went.
I started a new thread when the story came alive again here.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4063.new#new.

I do have saved on my PC all  Inportant transcripts
  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 11:02:22 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 11:02:22 AM
ss
Possible..
Natalee was placed in Jalitza's crypt and Jaltiza was placed in the fish cage with Natalee's clothes, including her denim skirt

Jalitza Wever dies june 2 2005 buried on june 6th 2005 born 1962 =  Just 43 years old



Why she died nobody knows.
Further research needed by Aruban citizens to identify cause of death and family members.
Just bringing this thought over.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: vms on December 05, 2008, 11:04:51 AM
Quote from: MumInOhio
Thanks Lala's for reminding me...

Here is the link for some early discussions in Shango on Clyde Burke. Kermie used a post to back up one of his posts...

Ask Lala's and Finngirl...It is all about context...  ::MonkeyWink::

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2860


Maybe you have to explain the context...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 11:05:56 AM
Amazing isn't it. only 30 days after Natalee went missing Jan Van der Straten

was so sure Natalee would not be found alive.  Think about all the evidence so carefully given to Karin Jaansen to take to Holland, to be disproven as anything relevant to the investigation.   All of us God fearing people know there is a special place in hell for the liars, cheats and murders, in this whole scene

Amen!!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 11:06:11 AM
One more chi ching of 2 cents on this:

BECAUSE of the way this case has been corrupted by all who should have been investigating it, the door has always been wide open to explore any possibilities. In fact, the corruption is so deep, the cover-up so incredulous, the arrogance so blatent, that there just aren't any borders that define what could have happened, even when looked at by very reasonable people.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:09:07 AM
One more chi ching of 2 cents on this:

BECAUSE of the way this case has been corrupted by all who should have been investigating it, the door has always been wide open to explore any possibilities. In fact, the corruption is so deep, the cover-up so incredulous, the arrogance so blatent, that there just aren't any borders that define what could have happened, even when looked at by very reasonable people.


Agreed.  Kermit's pictures taken in consideration with various posts made in the past by OE and the actions of other individuals make this as plausible a theory to consider and discuss as Natalee being buried in Jalitza's grave.  Actually, I find the first more plausible than the second.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 11:11:31 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





Morning Mum!!!

I have to be honest. I couldn't keep up with Caps posts..lol...I was so busy last 2 months,...I was away for quite awhile!! I keep bugging Lalas to catch me up!! I am sure I am driving her crazy!!

I spoke to Jug again this morning. He asked me to please try and keep everyone focused on what is happening NOW!! It could be HUGE!!! They really finally have real HOPE!! that the cover-up we have been investigating for over three and a have years is FINALLY going to be blown wide open. It is very real!! A lot is happening behind the scenes that we don't know of. The focus right now should not be on who is right or wrong amounst the Monkeys, it should be on JAN VAN DER STRAATEN!!! He holds ALL the answers!! And he is sweating bullets along with paulus right now I am sure!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:12:52 AM
As to the relevance of the discussion regarding Kermit's theory, I recall Monkey's poured over the details of pictures a certain wildly painted van and homes on Aruba in infinite detail.  The same could be said of these conversations (that they weren't important or relevant) but at the time we didn't know that.  Time will tell if Kermit's theory has relevance, but we'll only know that after we've thoroughly dissected it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: MumInOhio
Thanks Lala's for reminding me...

Here is the link for some early discussions in Shango on Clyde Burke. Kermie used a post to back up one of his posts...

Ask Lala's and Finngirl...It is all about context...  ::MonkeyWink::

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2860


Maybe you have to explain the context...

Good Morning!...Shango 101 Context?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:15:19 AM
I wouldn't worry about the Monkey's focus, ldstlou.  We have always had our eye on the real prize in this case--truth and justice for Natalee.  The more theories we discuss, the more we come back to that. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 11:15:28 AM
As to the relevance of the discussion regarding Kermit's theory, I recall Monkey's poured over the details of pictures a certain wildly painted van and homes on Aruba in infinite detail.  The same could be said of these conversations (that they weren't important or relevant) but at the time we didn't know that.  Time will tell if Kermit's theory has relevance, but we'll only know that after we've thoroughly dissected it.

Well said, AZ. Here, Merry Christmas!

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/caz.gif)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/caz.gif


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: BUCKSHOT on December 05, 2008, 11:15:57 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





My point is simple.

Everyone, for the most part, concedes that Kermit is telling the truth. Kermit has asserted that remains of NH were found in the cage.

Other posters acknowledge speaking to the family of NH, as it pertains to Kermits assertions, and report back that they (the family) believe Kermit's assertions to be off base, and out in left field.

My point is: How can they both be right? Remains of NH were either found in the cage or they were not. Plain and simple.

If there are reasons beyond me for concealing the truth of the cage search, then shame on me. Was only asking a question, which seemed logical to me.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 11:16:21 AM
One more chi ching of 2 cents on this:

BECAUSE of the way this case has been corrupted by all who should have been investigating it, the door has always been wide open to explore any possibilities. In fact, the corruption is so deep, the cover-up so incredulous, the arrogance so blatent, that there just aren't any borders that define what could have happened, even when looked at by very reasonable people.


Agreed.  Kermit's pictures taken in consideration with various posts made in the past by OE and the actions of other individuals make this as plausible a theory to consider and discuss as Natalee being buried in Jalitza's grave.  Actually, I find the first more plausible than the second.

I will absolutely agree with both posts. NO ONE!! knows where Natalee is..not even her own family. She could be anywhere. Well...someone knows!!! whoever was responsible for disposing of her body. I think van der straaten is the one who holds ALL of the answers..he and the sloots!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 11:16:48 AM
LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:17:03 AM
Thanks, CBB.  I guess it is time to get dressed for the holidays.  You see, some of us focus on one thing, and some of us focus on another!   ::MonkeyHaHa::  And then, some of us manage to focus on several things at once.  Aren't we amazing Monkeys!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 11:17:07 AM
One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 11:17:39 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





Morning Mum!!!

I have to be honest. I couldn't keep up with Caps posts..lol...I was so busy last 2 months,...I was away for quite awhile!! I keep bugging Lalas to catch me up!! I am sure I am driving her crazy!!

I spoke to Jug again this morning. He asked me to please try and keep everyone focused on what is happening NOW!! It could be HUGE!!! They really finally have real HOPE!! that the cover-up we have been investigating for over three and a have years is FINALLY going to be blown wide open. It is very real!! A lot is happening behind the scenes that we don't know of. The focus right now should not be on who is right or wrong amounst the Monkeys, it should be on JAN VAN DER STRAATEN!!! He holds ALL the answers!! And he is sweating bullets along with paulus right now I am sure!!

You are right Lisa...again!

Wonder who in Aruba has Paulus' phone records?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 11:18:25 AM
DECEMBER 2, 2008

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY

Holloway Attorney: Pleas for Arrest Met With 'Deafening Silence'
Wednesday, December 03, 2008


GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: "Arrest them." That's what the lawyer for Natalee Holloway's family told the Aruban prosecutor. Joran van der Sloot told us "On the Record" that he sold Natalee Holloway on a beach in Aruba ...

Transcript:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,460908,00.html


Holloway attorney awaits answer after demanding Joran van der Sloot's arrest

Video:
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3265793&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html

+++++++++++

DECEMBER 4, 2008

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY
JOSSY MANSUR, DIARIO NEWSPAPER IN ARUBA


Holloway Cover-up By Aruban Law Enforcement?
Friday, December 05, 2008


GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: John Q. Kelly, you have a voicemail. Well, the lawyer for Natalee Holloway's family has been trying to get Aruban's chief prosecutor, Hans Mos. Well, Mos finally returned Mr. Kelly's call, and apparently left John Kelly a rather nasty voicemail. John Q. Kelly is with us ...

Transcript:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,462349,00.html


NO CALL WAITING
Aruban prosecutor calls Holloway's attorney


Video:
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3265793&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:18:32 AM
Klaas, great Monkey minds do think alike!   ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 11:20:38 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





My point is simple.

Everyone, for the most part, concedes that Kermit is telling the truth. Kermit has asserted that remains of NH were found in the cage.

Other posters acknowledge speaking to the family of NH, as it pertains to Kermits assertions, and report back that they (the family) believe Kermit's assertions to be off base, and out in left field.

My point is: How can they both be right? Remains of NH were either found in the cage or they were not. Plain and simple.

If there are reasons beyond me for concealing the truth of the cage search, then shame on me. Was only asking a question, which seemed logical to me.


That was a fair question. I have to go back to CBB's great post. She was POSITIVE based on evidence that the blonde hair was Natalee's. I have always said I truly believe Kermit 110% believes that Natalee was found. Was she? We don't know for sure...no one can say 100% for sure yes or no...we weren't there. I can say 100% sure, Natalee's family does not have her remains..and Natalee's family does not BELIEVE...because they were not there either..but they do not believe she was found in that cage.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:21:03 AM
One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 11:21:31 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.






Kermit posted yesterday that experts said remains in the cage were Natalee.  I think it is a pretty good question to ask if the remains are Natalee or not since we are told the family says they are not.

Family supports Caps but which theory as he first said all Dave had to do was come down and claim the body.  Posted that several times.  Good thing Dave didn't.  At one point Natalee was even under Lorenzo's new driveway!  It was exhausting to dig all that up by hand, I can tell you!  Just kidding.

But theories have abounded that came to nothing and even the legendary Shango has given information that was just plain wrong. 

Keep in mind the massive misinformation campaign and it's more easy to understand how wrong theories can be born from all we have been told and led to believe.  The Strategic Task Force did a very good job and they started on the day after Natalee disappeared and were in full swing within ten days to two weeks to insure the truth was totally obfuscated.  I believe the DEA agent Eric Williams may have been working for them from the get go even when Beth first arrived but JMO.

Still, I just want to know which experts said the remains matched Natalee.  I still see a service cap instead of skirt in the photos.  So I think something of interest was there, just not sure who or what.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 11:22:46 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





Morning Mum!!!

I have to be honest. I couldn't keep up with Caps posts..lol...I was so busy last 2 months,...I was away for quite awhile!! I keep bugging Lalas to catch me up!! I am sure I am driving her crazy!!

I spoke to Jug again this morning. He asked me to please try and keep everyone focused on what is happening NOW!! It could be HUGE!!! They really finally have real HOPE!! that the cover-up we have been investigating for over three and a have years is FINALLY going to be blown wide open. It is very real!! A lot is happening behind the scenes that we don't know of. The focus right now should not be on who is right or wrong amounst the Monkeys, it should be on JAN VAN DER STRAATEN!!! He holds ALL the answers!! And he is sweating bullets along with paulus right now I am sure!!

You are right Lisa...again!

Wonder who in Aruba has Paulus' phone records?

Betcha Rudy does!! I hope he does after announcing he knows of all the phone calls between paulus and him.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:25:05 AM

That was a fair question. I have to go back to CBB's great post. She was POSITIVE based on evidence that the blonde hair was Natalee's. I have always said I truly believe Kermit 110% believes that Natalee was found. Was she? We don't know for sure...no one can say 100% for sure yes or no...we weren't there. I can say 100% sure, Natalee's family does not have her remains..and Natalee's family does not BELIEVE...because they were not there either..but they do not believe she was found in that cage.

I have no way of verifying what you've just posted. 

However, Kermit did show me a pic of blue denim in the cage.  He showed me references made to blue denim by OE and Private Eye.  However, he also showed me comments that lead me to believe the FBI was not given blue denim from the cage to test.  When my curious mind wonders about this discrepancy, I can only draw the conclusion that the fabric in the cage was not given to the FBI to test, although they admit to testing some fabric and it didn't relate to Natalee.  Hmmmm...this points to Aruban coverup, again. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 11:26:29 AM
SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #839 on: Today at 03:47:21 AM »


I think we are all in agreement that the original five photographs were sent to the family and they were posted by Robin on BFN.  I think Kermit's issue is that there were/are additional photographs that clearly show denim, etc.  This was not clear in the original five photographs.  I am not trying to speak for Kermit, but rather explain what I interpreted that she was telling us.  I think her concerns were that Kyle, himself, was initially concerned that information had not been shared with the H/Ts and the FBI.  I have understood that Kyle approached Kermit for help in getting this information to the family and the FBI.  However, according to Kermit, Kyle changed his mind and instead withheld the additional photographs.  Kyle also reported to Kermit that Louis had sold photographs for a documentary and Kyle attempted to broker photographs.  I could be incorrect, but I interpreted what Kermit said as she (Kermit) was the one who gave Beth the remaining photographs after Kyle chose not to.  I think that this is the big problem here and more so than the debate as to whether or not Natalee's remains were in the cage.  I think that the big issue is that information/photographs were withheld from the family and the FBI, and that because ALE has possession of the cage contents, there is no way to know what was actually in the cage.  I have intrepeted this as the big issue here.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.820



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: vms on December 05, 2008, 11:26:31 AM
Quote from: MumInOhio
Thanks Lala's for reminding me...

Here is the link for some early discussions in Shango on Clyde Burke. Kermie used a post to back up one of his posts...

Ask Lala's and Finngirl...It is all about context...  ::MonkeyWink::

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2860


Maybe you have to explain the context...

Good Morning!...Shango 101 Context?

Morning, Mum.

Yes, can you do that in 20 words or less? :lol:

No, I meant that it seems to me that you may have to explain what Caps meant when her referred to Clyde Burke in that post.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 11:26:43 AM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 11:27:56 AM
OK Jug.. I love to see Paulus sweat .. Stick to VanStratten direct involvement..

It is Paulus.. Always was ..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 11:30:29 AM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.






Kermit posted yesterday that experts said remains in the cage were Natalee.  I think it is a pretty good question to ask if the remains are Natalee or not since we are told the family says they are not.

Family supports Caps but which theory as he first said all Dave had to do was come down and claim the body.  Posted that several times.  Good thing Dave didn't.  At one point Natalee was even under Lorenzo's new driveway!  It was exhausting to dig all that up by hand, I can tell you!  Just kidding.

But theories have abounded that came to nothing and even the legendary Shango has given information that was just plain wrong. 

Keep in mind the massive misinformation campaign and it's more easy to understand how wrong theories can be born from all we have been told and led to believe.  The Strategic Task Force did a very good job and they started on the day after Natalee disappeared and were in full swing within ten days to two weeks to insure the truth was totally obfuscated.  I believe the DEA agent Eric Williams may have been working for them from the get go even when Beth first arrived but JMO.

Still, I just want to know which experts said the remains matched Natalee.  I still see a service cap instead of skirt in the photos.  So I think something of interest was there, just not sure who or what.



Thanks Anna...I recall Caps' posts about the family...one was she was going to be moved on February 3rd. He said he was given wrong info when I asked.

Thanks also for the reminder on Eric Williams, that is where I was at when all this started. Him, Julia and my good friend Charles.

I am sitting on the fence on all of this as I really can't make up my mind.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ldstlou on December 05, 2008, 11:31:10 AM
LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 11:33:47 AM
Posted at RU:

K_Meine Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:10 am
Quote
   
Is it worth it?

The latest revelations by Rudy Croes probably doesn't shock many people. IMO, Van der Statten and others like KJ have been "knowledgeable" of what transpired very early on yet hoped, like many others, that people would just forget about this whole situation. How nice it was for them to be "relocated" elsewhere while others, namely the Aruban people, were left to deal with this festering mass of bullsh*t.

Are not most, if not all, people involved in this little dilemma Dutch? VDS's, Van der Stratten, Karin J, etc. Shouldn't The Netherlands aid Aruba with this situation and admit any culpability of its people or is it simply not worth it to them?

It appears this case has not simply gone away nor will it any time soon. There has been mixed reporting on how well Aruba has fared through this situation. However, it might behoove The Netherlands to assist in gathering all those involved initially and straighten this mess out once and for all. Aruba is way to nice a place to be unfairly subjected to someone elses lack of responsibility.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 11:34:04 AM
ss
Possible..
Natalee was placed in Jalitza's crypt and Jaltiza was placed in the fish cage with Natalee's clothes, including her denim skirt

Jalitza Wever dies june 2 2005 buried on june 6th 2005 born 1962 =  Just 43 years old



Why she died nobody knows.
Further research needed by Aruban citizens to identify cause of death and family members.
Just bringing this thought over.




Edward - we searched the obituaries and there was basically nothing on Jalitza.  My questions are related to the photograph, which we can't refute.  In the photograph are partial human remains, what appears to be a blue denim skirt, and a white shoe with blue stripes.  These are all important articles in Natalee's case.  I don't believe in coincidences, especially when it involves Aruba. 

We did a lot of research on the sneaker and pretty much eliminated the solid white K-Swiss that Urine was wearing in the Greta interview.  He did have a white pair with blue stripes and in one of his several police statements about the shoe, he did describe that a white sneaker with blue stripes was left on the beach.  The witness saw him walking from the pond with only one sneaker and Caps has told us that he lost a sneaker in the pond while washing himself off.   Beth reported that she was told that a bloody sneaker was found at the Sloot home.  I have been asking recently if we can tell whether it is a right or left sneaker in the trap and did the witness specify which shoe Urine was missing?  My question is why is there only one sneaker in the cage photograph?

The denim fabric has been discussed many times by Kyle, PI, etc. as being in the trap.  We can see it in the photographs of the evidence bags.  Natalee was wearing a denim skirt the night she disappeared.

The family seems pretty certain that Natalee's remains weren't in the cage.  Who was in the cage, if not Natalee?  We have blown up the pictures and identified a skull and what looks like a pelvic bone.  Someone was in that cage.

Caps is/was pretty certain that Natalee was put in someone's crypt when Beth started to put the heat on during the first week.  As Shango said... she's hidden in plain sight.  Caps felt that it was possibly the Masonic Cemetery because quite a few of the dirty hands are members of the Masonic Lodge and they would have had access to the cemetery and burial process.

It wouldn't matter why Jalitza died.  She was a woman who resembled Natalee and a switch could easily have been made.  Because of a lack of funeral information and an obituary, Jalitza doesn't seem to have been a well known person.  ALE themselves reported that Natalee had probably been moved several times during that first week.  It's unlikely that anything was put in the ocean that first night.  If we combined the information from Caps, the family denial that Natalee was in the cage, and the photographs of the cage contents would it be possible that the Elders switched Jalitza for Natalee?  If they decided to deposit Jalitza in the cage, would they have also added some important evidence like Natalee's clothes and the remaining bloody sneaker that wasn't lost in the pond?  I don't think that ALE ever expected Persistence to arrive and scan the ocean floor three years later and this would be a way to get a body and evidence off the island without a trace.  Are these possibly some of the activities that Paulass paid for?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 11:34:33 AM
One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?

The hotel lobby is the video I am referring to. thank you


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 11:35:29 AM
JOSSY MANSUR

Holloway Cover-up By Aruban Law Enforcement?
Friday, December 05, 2008


VAN SUSTEREN: Finally, maybe, the Aruban Justice Minister is talking. It has been three and a half years. Joining by phone from Aruba is Jossy Mansur, publisher and managing editor of Diario Newspaper.

Jossy, what did the justice minister say, and does it have any impact whatsoever in Aruba?

JOSSY MANSUR, DIARIO NEWSPAPER IN ARUBA: He is saying a lot of important things that have a lot of impact in Aruba. He has openly and publicly accused the ex-chief of police that he refused to arrest Joran van der Sloot because he was the son of his best friend, Paulus.

VAN SUSTEREN: And does that make any difference to anybody in Aruba?

MANSUR: It does make a difference to many people here in Aruba, of course, because coming from the minister of justice, who was in charge of the police--he is the director of the police corps and (INAUDIBLE) that occupied themselves with the disappearance of Natalee. Of course it's important.

VAN SUSTEREN: Does he have any proof that the chief of police did this or that there was a cover-up?

MANSUR: He does not have any proof as such outside of other declarations(ph) of other people who have heard the same kind of statement before.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is our interview with Joran van der Sloot pushing any investigation further. Are they taking it at all seriously because they still haven't asked for it? They haven't asked for the records that we think could either prove or disprove. But is it having any impact whatsoever in Aruba?

MANSUR: I think it had a lot of impact worldwide. We saw this man lie again, lie his head off. He doesn't care if it's publicly or whatever. And I think that it has not stirred the prosecution to the degree that they should be after him by now.

VAN SUSTEREN: In the conversation that we had with Joran, he claims that the voice on the tape is his father. And obviously the prosecutor could prove that or disprove that. He could use subpoena power and do that. We can't get a first-generation tape from his father and do that.

Is it likely that the prosecutor will do that? Because, frankly, if it turns out that is his voice, his father under what he said is up to his eyeballs in something.

MANSUR: Of course. We know he was involved from the beginning. And after the new wave of things(ph), Mr. Herman, who saw Joran walking with his clothes all muddy. And then later he was saw him in the car with Paulus van der Sloot.

And we assume, and it has been certified by this man that the man who took Joran van der Sloot to his home that night after Natalee disappeared was his father. So he was involved from the beginning.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,462349,00.html



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 11:36:42 AM
WoW!  I totally missed Kermit saying the family had remains!  Does anyone have a copy of that post?  Interesting. . . .

And I will say again that obstruction of justice is likely illegal in Aruba but actual corruption laws had never been enacted, very oddly.

One would think this would place Aruba directly under the Dutch system until they DID enact certain laws, right?  But it is Aruba after all.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 11:37:32 AM
LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!

I'm not as sure as you are that Kermit is saying that Beth/Jug and Dave have Natalee's body.  That said, any suggestions (besides emailing the embassy) on how we keep the focus on Van der Straaten?  Looks like Rudy has taken the first step. Is there something we should be doing that will help?  Any ideas?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 11:38:11 AM
Quote from: MumInOhio
Thanks Lala's for reminding me...

Here is the link for some early discussions in Shango on Clyde Burke. Kermie used a post to back up one of his posts...

Ask Lala's and Finngirl...It is all about context...  ::MonkeyWink::

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2860


Maybe you have to explain the context...

Good Morning!...Shango 101 Context?

Morning, Mum.

Yes, can you do that in 20 words or less? :lol:

No, I meant that it seems to me that you may have to explain what Caps meant when her referred to Clyde Burke in that post.

Caps meant Clyde was Simian...that is what was being discussed. Understanding Shango and then whom was who.

The idea had been thrown around previously that Clyde was Simian.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 11:42:32 AM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.



IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 11:44:30 AM
Could Jossy be saying Geerman or Gearman as that is a very common name in Aruba.  Mr. Geerman?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:45:39 AM
ldstlou, your last post clearly shows why some here have wondered why certain posters rant and rave and attempt to discredit Kermit's theory and squash any conversation about the cage's contents.  Aside from your multiple exclamation points, capitalized epithets, and verbal foot stomping and tantrum throwing, your post wildly exaggerates Kermit's theory.  Do you expect us to give this type of post any credibility? 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 11:46:23 AM
Posted at RU:

K_Meine Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:10 am
Quote
   
Is it worth it?

The latest revelations by Rudy Croes probably doesn't shock many people. IMO, Van der Statten and others like KJ have been "knowledgeable" of what transpired very early on yet hoped, like many others, that people would just forget about this whole situation. How nice it was for them to be "relocated" elsewhere while others, namely the Aruban people, were left to deal with this festering mass of bullsh*t.

Are not most, if not all, people involved in this little dilemma Dutch? VDS's, Van der Stratten, Karin J, etc. Shouldn't The Netherlands aid Aruba with this situation and admit any culpability of its people or is it simply not worth it to them?

It appears this case has not simply gone away nor will it any time soon. There has been mixed reporting on how well Aruba has fared through this situation. However, it might behoove The Netherlands to assist in gathering all those involved initially and straighten this mess out once and for all. Aruba is way to nice a place to be unfairly subjected to someone elses lack of responsibility.




Wow. Did this person get banned for their post?  ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: BUCKSHOT on December 05, 2008, 11:46:36 AM
LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!

LDSTLOU-
No disrepect to you, whatsoever. I do not know you. I believe that you have good intentions, as we all do. No need to argue. I still presume that no one knows the exact truth as to what happened that night. As others have said, all we can do is hash out theories, and either corroborate them or discard them.

My question did not mean to stir trouble. All I was saying is this: Kermit asserted that NH remains were in the cage. The Arubans, yet again, conspired to cover up some aspect of the truth, concerning the search. Other posters convey to us that the family is aware of Kermit's assertions and find them to be untrue. Only one of these two theories can be true. Her remains were found in the cage or they were not. I do not know the answer to this question; therefore, I felt the need to have my question answered. Yes or no. I do not assert that NH's family has the contents of the cage. Quite frankly, I do not know who possesses the contents, nor if there were even contents to possess.

Good for those who have all of the answers and choose not to share them. It is certainly their perogative(s). I do not know the answers, like many, and seek to know them as this case has captivated my attention since it has happened.

Our opinions, comments, etc are all valued here on this forum. Agree or disagree, I respect everyone's input here. This forum is priceless to me, as it allow for sharing of information. If I asked a stupid question, allow me to apologize. I have always been told that there was no such thing as a stupid question.

If there are reasons for keeping things hush-hush, shame on me as I stated in my previous post. I will sit back and wait for things to unfold. Meanwhile, I will go stick my nose in the corner as punishment for asking such a stupid question.

 ::MonkeyWaa:: ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 11:47:30 AM
Could Jossy be saying Geerman or Gearman as that is a very common name in Aruba.  Mr. Geerman?

Even Werleman...that was mentioned yesterday.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 11:49:02 AM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.



IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.


You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 11:49:06 AM
Julia Refreno was pushing the Holiday Inn video.. Beth refuted it..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 11:49:45 AM

Wonder who in Aruba has Paulus' phone records?

Betcha Rudy does!! I hope he does after announcing he knows of all the phone calls between paulus and him.



Dontcha know he's got them, along with the telephone wiretap documents that specify Paulus had "two contacts" with Natalee that night.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 11:49:49 AM
Just remembered the day Sharon noticed a post in the Jan Van der Straten thread.....now wonder if something was brewing a couple of weeks ago, before Rudy spoke up...or not...another coincidental post?  Hmmmmm

i would like to ask people to stop speculating my uncle's involvement. I find it awful to read how people disregard him. If you have any questions regarding him, please PM me, private.

Thank you.

Marieke

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3028.20


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 11:50:52 AM
One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?

The hotel lobby is the video I am referring to. thank you




Edward - I forgot to mention that during the summer of 2005, someone badly vandalized only the Wever and Oduber crypts in the cemetery.  Was this possibly an act of retaliation because somone knew that the dirty hands had switched Jalitza Wever for Natalee?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:52:16 AM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.



IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.


You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO
Yes, I recall that, Anna.  I also remember a woman from the family (was it Beth's sister or Dave's sister?) who spoke to Van der Straaten on the beach when they were looking for Natalee.  She interpreted what he said to mean that he knew Natalee was dead.  I need to look that one up.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 11:52:42 AM
Just remembered the day Sharon noticed a post in the Jan Van der Straten thread.....now wonder if something was brewing a couple of weeks ago, before Rudy spoke up...or not...another coincidental post?  Hmmmmm

i would like to ask people to stop speculating my uncle's involvement. I find it awful to read how people disregard him. If you have any questions regarding him, please PM me, private.

Thank you.

Marieke

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3028.20

Ah, good point.  I had forgotten about this post. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 11:54:16 AM
Has Jossy Mansur written anything like an editorial in Diario this week?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 11:54:49 AM
One more chi ching of 2 cents on this:

BECAUSE of the way this case has been corrupted by all who should have been investigating it, the door has always been wide open to explore any possibilities. In fact, the corruption is so deep, the cover-up so incredulous, the arrogance so blatent, that there just aren't any borders that define what could have happened, even when looked at by very reasonable people.




ITA. Like Beth said CBB, it goes all the way to the Hague!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
Could Jossy be saying Geerman or Gearman as that is a very common name in Aruba.  Mr. Geerman?

Even Werleman...that was mentioned yesterday.


Yes, another common name and one that has been loosely associated with the case.

Now watch it turn out to be none of these or anything even close, lol.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Ono on December 05, 2008, 11:55:05 AM
One more chi ching of 2 cents on this:

BECAUSE of the way this case has been corrupted by all who should have been investigating it, the door has always been wide open to explore any possibilities. In fact, the corruption is so deep, the cover-up so incredulous, the arrogance so blatent, that there just aren't any borders that define what could have happened, even when looked at by very reasonable people.



So true....I still vivedly remember Jug stating on TV so early on that this case will shock the world.  His instincts and summation were so completely correct.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 11:56:11 AM
Probably not a good number now, but van der straaten's cell phone number at the time Natalee went missing was:

0112979667099

Maybe someone with good contacts can do something with it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: sharon on December 05, 2008, 11:56:30 AM
Just remembered the day Sharon noticed a post in the Jan Van der Straten thread.....now wonder if something was brewing a couple of weeks ago, before Rudy spoke up...or not...another coincidental post?  Hmmmmm

i would like to ask people to stop speculating my uncle's involvement. I find it awful to read how people disregard him. If you have any questions regarding him, please PM me, private.

Thank you.

Marieke

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3028.20



 ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

Ignore my email

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 11:58:13 AM
Can a Mod please help me???

Somewhere in the past few weeks one of Kermit's cage photographs was posted with the shoe enlarged.  If I recall, the white shoe with blue stripes was identified.  Could someone please bring that photograph up.  Thanks so much in advance.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:58:31 AM
The war between Van der Stratten and Croes was probably a while in the making.  Maybe Croes decided that the only way to close this case was to offer a scapegoat.  But, this particular accusation against Van der Stratten also covers the Minister of Justice with the same mud because he is/was the ultimate party responsible for the actions of the police.  That is what puzzle me here.  I'm beginning to think that Croes knows he's going down, and he's going to take the rest of them with him. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 11:59:34 AM
LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!

Lou ... don't go!!  If you stay ... I will send you a Christmas parcel and ... I will request that UPS have it special delivery by one of their best looking "single" driver.  Think very carefully about my offer.  Tomorrow could be the first day of a new life.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Lou ... could you please direct me to where Kermit claimed that the family had Natalee's remains.  My understand is that the entire contents of the cage are in the possession of ALE.

I am one with SS in what this entire issue encompasses.  Lou ... there were withheld images that were spared ALE destruction and ... I believe that was a good thing.  However ... according to Kermit ... rather than turning these images over to Beth as he first intended ... Kyle has second thoughts and ... attempted to make a deal with some networks.

Janet

_______


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


ocean exploration (Kyle)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »


We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 11:59:44 AM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.



IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.


You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO
Yes, I recall that, Anna.  I also remember a woman from the family (was it Beth's sister or Dave's sister?) who spoke to Van der Straaten on the beach when they were looking for Natalee.  She interpreted what he said to mean that he knew Natalee was dead.  I need to look that one up.

I think it was Linda Allison.   He was maybe explaining two theiries when someone interrupted him?  And maye said to Carl Penhaul?  Yes, I am more confusion than help on this but I do know what he said was totally taken to mean he had seen the body at the time and only later modified for whatever reasons.  To correct it or to change it I don't know.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 12:00:43 PM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.



IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.


You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO



ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:02:05 PM
That's what I remember Linda Allison saying.  She was very convinced that van der Stratten indicated he had seen the body.  This was quite early in the case.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 12:02:16 PM
Can a Mod please help me???

Somewhere in the past few weeks one of Kermit's cage photographs was posted with the shoe enlarged.  If I recall, the white shoe with blue stripes was identified.  Could someone please bring that photograph up.  Thanks so much in advance.

I'll look for you, but I'm not the quickest Mod on the squad.   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 12:02:50 PM
Can a Mod please help me???

Somewhere in the past few weeks one of Kermit's cage photographs was posted with the shoe enlarged.  If I recall, the white shoe with blue stripes was identified.  Could someone please bring that photograph up.  Thanks so much in advance.

LaLamom, hopefully this will help clear up. throw out what you think you know and just follow the truth


(http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6913/silvettigroupfinaljh0.jpg)
March 8, 2008 CAPS POSTED - "I hope tomorrow we will have the final links into a final resolution about the pond. This coming week is THE DAY.
Me and J & W and the C's are all in agreement now that it must be there.
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2680.560

J = John Silvetti

grave robbers

(http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/9796/gretacage3wo9.jpg)

(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3038/datelinediversfromarubaqm2.jpg)

Greta van Sustern: "He's lying
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3312/datelinehansmosonboardpsv7.jpg)

COVER-UP
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/3785/dolfrichardsonxo9.jpg)
DOLPH RICHARDSON

Aruba divers arriving. WHY? Where are the American's? Where is Tim Miller? Where is Hodges? Where is Dateline?
Who was in charge - go back and start at the beginning of this post.
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9251/datelinenotthatfaroffshvh5.jpg)
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3928/fromrvpersistencehotelsnm4.jpg)
(http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/869/shoeinsidecagecg8.jpg)
1 tennis shoe inside cage

(http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/9862/tennisshoefromcagexc0.jpg)


Joran: "She's in the ocean
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4632/joranshewontbefoundmo4.jpg)

Look at the distance from shore.


(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2392/datelinetrapbo2.jpg)

private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hans Mos
Dolph Richardson
Aruban divers
John Silvetti

COVER-UP




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 12:04:14 PM
That's what I remember Linda Allison saying.  She was very convinced that van der Stratten indicated he had seen the body.  This was quite early in the case.


Exactly!  Then we were all very surprised when it was retracted and changed into he had only seen the evidence of the investigation.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 12:04:55 PM
The war between Van der Stratten and Croes was probably a while in the making.  Maybe Croes decided that the only way to close this case was to offer a scapegoat.  But, this particular accusation against Van der Stratten also covers the Minister of Justice with the same mud because he is/was the ultimate party responsible for the actions of the police.  That is what puzzle me here.  I'm beginning to think that Croes knows he's going down, and he's going to take the rest of them with him. 

 
Next up bring Karin Jannsen into the corruption loop. She knew the evidence, she had to agree on delaying the arrest of J2K, she would have had to sign off on the security guards' arrest. It's now time to bring her fat ass into the spotlight.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 12:05:37 PM
One more chi ching of 2 cents on this:

BECAUSE of the way this case has been corrupted by all who should have been investigating it, the door has always been wide open to explore any possibilities. In fact, the corruption is so deep, the cover-up so incredulous, the arrogance so blatent, that there just aren't any borders that define what could have happened, even when looked at by very reasonable people.




ITA. Like Beth said CBB, it goes all the way to the Hague!!!

Beth Twitty
On the Record w/ Greta
November 14, 2005


VAN SUSTEREN: : We're saying that even the AG is controlled by The Hague, so they're keeping Karen Janssen on ...

TWITTY: Well Greta, somebody is lobbying for Joran in the Hague in order to protect him ..... it has to be.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 12:09:50 PM
Here is his response:

thank you for your email. I am very busy with this case and I agree with your option.
 
gr. Hero Brinkman

I'm pleased that he took the time to write back to me.  However, after reading the interview with Brinkman just posted, I do admit I'm not really onboard with his suggestion that Netherlands cut Aruba loose.  They would essentially be giving the island to Chavez.  Although, I think in more ways than one, the Dutch on Aruba have already made their deal with this devil.  Maybe it would be best to just get it out in the open and the whole thing can be exposed.

i think this is just political tough talk by Brinkman the get the attention.
the Netherlands will never cut Aruba loose. this will be a major embarrassment.
because Chavez will grab the island in no time and get a lot closer to America.
the Dutch government will be blamed for letting that happen.
Aruba also doesn't want this i think. because they won't be independent in Venezuela.

Aruba think it can get away with everything because they know they won't be cut loose.
it is constant blackmail what Aruba does.
same with Plant Hotel, same with moving the Common Court to Aruba.
all under threat of derailing the Round Table Conference 15th December.

here is a debate in the Dutch parliament:
http://static.ikregeer.nl/pdf/KST125229.pdf
it is about the Plant Hotel reveneus.
political parties, left to right accuse Aruba of blackmailing.
als Remkes is especially though - he was Home Affairs Minister in 2005.
maybe Rudy Croes accused him of racism?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:10:15 PM
Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   ::MonkeyShocked::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 12:10:16 PM
LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!
Lisa, Lisa, Lisa, -- please don't get upset. Did you ever stop to think that maybe Jug is telling you what the family WANTS you to hear??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 12:10:34 PM
SS, I had it ready to post, but see that Klaasend beat me to it.  No surprise.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Ono on December 05, 2008, 12:14:51 PM
DECEMBER 2, 2008

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY

Holloway Attorney: Pleas for Arrest Met With 'Deafening Silence'
Wednesday, December 03, 2008


GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: "Arrest them." That's what the lawyer for Natalee Holloway's family told the Aruban prosecutor. Joran van der Sloot told us "On the Record" that he sold Natalee Holloway on a beach in Aruba ...

Transcript:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,460908,00.html


Holloway attorney awaits answer after demanding Joran van der Sloot's arrest

Video:
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3265793&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html

+++++++++++

DECEMBER 4, 2008

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY
JOSSY MANSUR, DIARIO NEWSPAPER IN ARUBA


Holloway Cover-up By Aruban Law Enforcement?
Friday, December 05, 2008


GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: John Q. Kelly, you have a voicemail. Well, the lawyer for Natalee Holloway's family has been trying to get Aruban's chief prosecutor, Hans Mos. Well, Mos finally returned Mr. Kelly's call, and apparently left John Kelly a rather nasty voicemail. John Q. Kelly is with us ...

Transcript:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,462349,00.html


NO CALL WAITING
Aruban prosecutor calls Holloway's attorney


Video:
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3265793&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html



Janet:  Your secretarial skills are just invaluable to me !  I want to take this opportunity to thank you as I get caught up with things I've missed because of your dedication !!

Kudos to Greta and JQK !!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:17:49 PM
Here is his response:

thank you for your email. I am very busy with this case and I agree with your option.
 
gr. Hero Brinkman

I'm pleased that he took the time to write back to me.  However, after reading the interview with Brinkman just posted, I do admit I'm not really onboard with his suggestion that Netherlands cut Aruba loose.  They would essentially be giving the island to Chavez.  Although, I think in more ways than one, the Dutch on Aruba have already made their deal with this devil.  Maybe it would be best to just get it out in the open and the whole thing can be exposed.

i think this is just political tough talk by Brinkman the get the attention.
the Netherlands will never cut Aruba loose. this will be a major embarrassment.
because Chavez will grab the island in no time and get a lot closer to America.
the Dutch government will be blamed for letting that happen.
Aruba also doesn't want this i think. because they won't be independent in Venezuela.

Aruba think it can get away with everything because they know they won't be cut loose.
it is constant blackmail what Aruba does.
same with Plant Hotel, same with moving the Common Court to Aruba.
all under threat of derailing the Round Table Conference 15th December.

here is a debate in the Dutch parliament:
http://static.ikregeer.nl/pdf/KST125229.pdf
it is about the Plant Hotel reveneus.
political parties, left to right accuse Aruba of blackmailing.
als Remkes is especially though - he was Home Affairs Minister in 2005.
maybe Rudy Croes accused him of racism?

Yes, I gathered as much.  Even though Aruba talks tough to the motherland, they need the money and know they can't survive independently without being subsumed by Chavez.  The Netherlands knows they can't cut Aruba loose without upsetting the whole Caribbean balance of power, not to mention the US and Mexican reaction to such a deed.  So, they are caught in a checkmate with Netherlands holding the purse strings and threatening, and Aruba shouting back like a belligerant teenager.  Netherlands needs to act like a responsible parent and put some rules into place that they can enforce.  A good place to start would be to eliminate the corrupted behavior and people from the island, and then require more accountability from Aruba.  There are ways to responsibly parent even an unruly teenager, but they are not easy or comfortable for all involved.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 12:18:02 PM
Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   ::MonkeyShocked::

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 12:18:35 PM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.



IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.


You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO

I know you werent asking me, but I remember


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 12:18:54 PM
Thank you Klass (and your efforts, too, 2NJ).  That is exactly the photograph that I was looking for.  I ask the question again - why is there only one sneaker in the cage?  Didn't Caps say that a sneaker was recovered when Manserat was drained this past Spring?   1+1=2.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:22:31 PM
Well, SS, this is confusing, isn't it?  Joran's one bloody sneaker was in his room.  However, the second sneaker can't be both in the cage and in the pond.  I do see the picture of a similar sneaker in the cage, but I have not seen a picture of the sneaker that was supposed to be recovered from the pond.  So, if I have to choose, I believe what I see in the picture of the cage.  If other evidence is provided, then I might change my mind, but this is what I see now.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 12:23:11 PM
Just remembered the day Sharon noticed a post in the Jan Van der Straten thread.....now wonder if something was brewing a couple of weeks ago, before Rudy spoke up...or not...another coincidental post?  Hmmmmm

i would like to ask people to stop speculating my uncle's involvement. I find it awful to read how people disregard him. If you have any questions regarding him, please PM me, private.

Thank you.

Marieke

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3028.20

Ah, good point.  I had forgotten about this post. 

Has anyone PM'ed her yet to find out reactions to the latest news?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:24:09 PM
Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   ::MonkeyShocked::

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

Yes.  Kyle said that the Arubans dove from their own boat and returned to their own boat.  Tim Miller was not present at this time.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 12:27:07 PM
Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   ::MonkeyShocked::

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA



Mum - according to Kyle the divers dove from their own boat on January 7th and weren't onboard the Persistence.  The specific divers haven't been identified, but I think an assumption was made that it was someone involved with Aruba Search and Rescue because that same individual was photographed the prior week omboard the Peristence.  Kyle refused to identify the diver in the photograph.  The quote from Kyle about dive capabilities was in reference to the Panter a week later, on January 11th and 12th when he watched th ship from the beach.  Kermit did post a photograph with two or three divers under water and next to the cage, but I don't know where that photograph is now and I don't recall that the divers were identified.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 12:30:08 PM
Well, SS, this is confusing, isn't it?  Joran's one bloody sneaker was in his room.  However, the second sneaker can't be both in the cage and in the pond.  I do see the picture of a similar sneaker in the cage, but I have not seen a picture of the sneaker that was supposed to be recovered from the pond.  So, if I have to choose, I believe what I see in the picture of the cage.  If other evidence is provided, then I might change my mind, but this is what I see now.

Yes...there appears to be 3 sneakers.

Can't remember what happened with the previous discussions on this. Can't find anything on the search either! SS...do you remember? Thanks!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 12:30:42 PM
Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   ::MonkeyShocked::

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

Yes.  Kyle said that the Arubans dove from their own boat and returned to their own boat.  Tim Miller was not present at this time.

I believe that it was the Panter Coast Guard boat that said it
had no dive capabilities.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 12:34:07 PM
Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   ::MonkeyShocked::

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA



Mum - according to Kyle the divers dove from their own boat on January 7th and weren't onboard the Persistence.  The specific divers haven't been identified, but I think an assumption was made that it was someone involved with Aruba Search and Rescue because that same individual was photographed the prior week omboard the Peristence.  Kyle refused to identify the diver in the photograph.  The quote from Kyle about dive capabilities was in reference to the Panter a week later, on January 11th and 12th when he watched th ship from the beach.  Kermit did post a photograph with two or three divers under water and next to the cage, but I don't know where that photograph is now and I don't recall that the divers were identified.

Blonde's thread, The Search for Natalee Holloway has most of the pictures.  I think these screen shots of divers may be what you are thinking of.

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)
Note date on  screenshots and with 3 divers
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 12:34:22 PM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.



IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.


You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO



ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!

I contend that "throwing Jan van Straaten under the bus" is a well thought out Aruban plan to bring closure to the Natalee Holloway case and ... Jan van Straaten has been provided with either threats or incentives to cooperate.  In other words ... Straaten has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb.  He has agreed to take the slap on the wrist as a consequence for obstructing the investigation in the first ten days and ... allowing all crucial evidence required to bring the suspects to justice to be destroyed.

Otherwise ... there would be a domino affect that would be very far reaching in regards to all who were involved in the happenings of the morning of May 30, 2005 ... all who where  involved in the events that led up to the happenings  of the morning of May 30, 200t and ... all those within the Dutch/Aruba administration who are involved in the coverup that has denied Natalee Holloway justice and ... put her family through a H--- on Earth for 3 1/2 years.

To make this case go away ... Rudy Croes may concede to a botched investigation caused by one of Aruba's own but ... he is not about to flush Aruba down the toilet.

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 12:35:00 PM
Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   ::MonkeyShocked::

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA



Mum - according to Kyle the divers dove from their own boat on January 7th and weren't onboard the Persistence.  The specific divers haven't been identified, but I think an assumption was made that it was someone involved with Aruba Search and Rescue because that same individual was photographed the prior week omboard the Peristence.  Kyle refused to identify the diver in the photograph.  The quote from Kyle about dive capabilities was in reference to the Panter a week later, on January 11th and 12th when he watched th ship from the beach.  Kermit did post a photograph with two or three divers under water and next to the cage, but I don't know where that photograph is now and I don't recall that the divers were identified.

OK...Thanks...Recall something on December 30th. about equiptment taking 10 to 14 days to get in. I "thought" this was do do with sifting the sand. Will go back and check if that was what was said as well.

Panter was there 11th. and 12th....42 minutes each time.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:35:28 PM
Dive capabilities?  What's that mean?  People dive off of sailboats, catamarans, and many other types of boats.  I didn't know a boat had to have "dive capabilities."  That makes it sound like a submarine or something, and not a boat from which people could deep sea dive.  Is this obfuscation or am I just not getting it?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 12:38:44 PM
Well, SS, this is confusing, isn't it?  Joran's one bloody sneaker was in his room.  However, the second sneaker can't be both in the cage and in the pond.  I do see the picture of a similar sneaker in the cage, but I have not seen a picture of the sneaker that was supposed to be recovered from the pond.  So, if I have to choose, I believe what I see in the picture of the cage.  If other evidence is provided, then I might change my mind, but this is what I see now.




AZ - the witness saw Urine with one sneaker after he had just reportedly lost one in the pond.  If a bloody sneaker was found, as Beth was told, that would be the sneaker that he was wearing when the witness saw him.  My thought is that the bloody sneaker was later taken by the Edlers and added to other evidence like the denim skirt that was put in the cage.  The cage photographs were taken on December 29th and the sneaker is there in the picture.  Manserat Pond wasn't drained until March.  Caps claims a sneaker was found.  ALE has the pond evidence, I believe.  We need Caps to clarify that.  If we had the sneaker from the cage and the sneaker from Manserat, we could nail ALE with the cover up.  If we could prove that the sneaker in the cage did belong to Urine, we could prove a cover up involving the cage.  This is why I have been asking about a right show or left shoe in the cage and whether the witness specified a missing right shoe or left shoe.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:39:20 PM
Janet, I agree.  The choice is to sacrifice van der Stratten and PVDS or to flush the island down the toilet, basically giving up any of their independence and clearing out the whole lot of them.  This won't happen, so van der Stratten is taking the hit.  However, my guess is that we should watch in future for a fattening of Uncle Jan's bank account.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Hotshot on December 05, 2008, 12:39:44 PM
The war between Van der Stratten and Croes was probably a while in the making.  Maybe Croes decided that the only way to close this case was to offer a scapegoat.  But, this particular accusation against Van der Stratten also covers the Minister of Justice with the same mud because he is/was the ultimate party responsible for the actions of the police.  That is what puzzle me here.  I'm beginning to think that Croes knows he's going down, and he's going to take the rest of them with him. 

 
Next up bring Karin Jannsen into the corruption loop. She knew the evidence, she had to agree on delaying the arrest of J2K, she would have had to sign off on the security guards' arrest. It's now time to bring her fat ass into the spotlight.
It would really be nice to see Vo(king) , Smit, and Wit, start talking.  This whole thing can really get interesting fast.... Hmmm, Dompig would be a good one to bring in also.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 12:39:54 PM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.

Dayhiker

If Beth and Jug had it all figured out within 72 hours ... Jan Van der Straaten most certainly did.

Janet

______

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for Dec. 5th
updated 6:18 a.m. PT, Tues., Dec. 6, 2005


TWITTY: ... Remember, within the first 24 hours, we knew who the suspects were. We knew the persons that Natalee were taken from Carlos and Charlie‘s. We knew the license plate of the gray Honda they placed her in. We knew the condition that Natalee was in. We knew the behavior or the conduct in which they engaged in with Natalee.

And then not only that, Jane, within 72 hours, we knew that their first story was totally fabricated, that within the first 72 hours, I faced a room of 12 -- at least 12 detectives, Aruban and Dutch detectives, and a lead detective, Dennis Jacobs (ph), and they knew after we reviewed video footage from the Holiday Inn casino lobby that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. They knew that those suspects were fabricating a story from day one.

<snipped>

TWITTY: Well, Jane, something that the family knew—and we have to keep reminding everyone—after 72 hours -- 72 hours—we knew definitively that these suspects were not telling the truth. We knew that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. Of course we were becoming frustrated. Who wouldn‘t, at this point? You know, we—and what was so unbelievable about this, is they knew this information and still chose to pursue the two security guards on June the 5th.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348437/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 12:41:20 PM
In the middle diving picture above, the diver is using a camera
it seems.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 12:41:30 PM
Janet, I agree.  The choice is to sacrifice van der Stratten and PVDS or to flush the island down the toilet, basically giving up any of their independence and clearing out the whole lot of them.  This won't happen, so van der Stratten is taking the hit.  However, my guess is that we should watch in future for a fattening of Uncle Jan's bank account.

AZLady ... I agree 100%.

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 12:45:24 PM
OK...Dive capabilities...Saved it without the link...I think he was saying the Arubans didn't have the dive capabilities. ::MonkeyConfused::

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -

Quote from: ala_gunslinger on March 18, 2008, 12:27:48 PM


Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

Quote Kyle..
No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:46:14 PM
In the middle diving picture above, the diver is using a camera
it seems.
I can't really tell from the pic, but I would logically believe the divers had at least one camera with them.  After all, this was the initial dive in which they were to closer investigate the cage and contents.  This had to be documented, thus a camera had to be used.  Probably a high res underwater camera that could take quite detailed pics under those conditions.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 12:47:24 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 12:48:02 PM
I really disagree, I don't think van der straaten would agree to be a lamb anywhere. They've already admitted what they've done, many times.

Nobody wants to touch this case, and until somebody with passion or power, just one person, decides to honestly put an end to this, they can tell all the stories they want and it won't matter.

Aruba is to Holland what Joran is to Paulus, and you can see how well the "protection" is going.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 12:49:24 PM

ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!

I contend that "throwing Jan van Straaten under the bus" is a well thought out Aruban plan to bring closure to the Natalee Holloway case and ... Jan van Straaten has been provided with either threats or incentives to cooperate.  In other words ... Straaten has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb.  He has agreed to take the slap on the wrist as a consequence for obstructing the investigation in the first ten days and ... allowing all crucial evidence required to bring the suspects to justice to be destroyed.

Otherwise ... there would be a domino affect that would be very far reaching in regards to all who were involved in the happenings of the morning of May 30, 2005 ... all who where  involved in the events that led up to the happenings  of the morning of May 30, 200t and ... all those within the Dutch/Aruba administration who are involved in the coverup that has denied Natalee Holloway justice and ... put her family through a H--- on Earth for 3 1/2 years.

To make this case go away ... Rudy Croes may concede to a botched investigation caused by one of Aruba's own but ... he is not about to flush Aruba down the toilet.

Janet


You got to have faith, Janet. The whole key to bringing this case down has been to put pressure on the Dutch. That has always been the case. Aruba could never police itself. Greta and Rudy are both smearing Holland, as they should. Holland needs to react with a full investigation into the corruption. They already have enough to bring Van der Straten in on obstruction charges.

Keep the faith!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 12:49:33 PM
OK... ::MonkeyConfused:: Thanks Kyle ::MonkeyHaHa::


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
on: March 19, 2008, 03:21:31 PM


After the Jan 7th dive, I was scheduled to take a short break on land, staying at the Holiday Inn between Jan 9th and returning to the Persistence on Jan 14th.  I had been working steadily since Dec 15th and needed a break.  It was a coincidence I was around to be walking the beach to observe what I saw with the vessel at or near the site on the 11th and 12th of Jan.  I don't know for certain if there is anything to it.  When asked if they were diving the site, they replied: "we don't have dive capabilities".

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
on: March 19, 2008, 04:21:47 PM

The Coast Guard is not the same as the Aruba police dive division.  It seemed very odd to be told they don't have dive capabilities, especially after they told us it would take about 10-14 days to get a Dutch forensic team on site.  This was 12 and 13 days later.  Coincidence perhaps? 

Janet, you aren't even a bad dream, let alone a nightmare.  We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.  The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:50:24 PM
OK...Dive capabilities...Saved it without the link...I think he was saying the Arubans didn't have the dive capabilities. ::MonkeyConfused::

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -

Quote from: ala_gunslinger on March 18, 2008, 12:27:48 PM


Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

Quote Kyle..
No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.


I would hope it raised a few questions.   I, as a lowly internet *******, question the meaning of the phrase "dive capability" as regards any boat in Aruba (an island where diving is a popular pastime).  As an oceanographer, I'm sure OE was more than skeptical when told the Dutch Coast Guard didn't have "dive capabilities."  That's just more than ludicrous--it's like talking in another language.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 12:50:36 PM
I don't know,--- there just seems to be so much "hopping" right now. Something is is not quite right.
-- Joran is spouting off -- implicating himself (but short of murder)
-- The whole Persistence "veracity" issues.
-- Revelations about Tim Miller (and Dave) being lured off during the sea cage episode
-- The corresponding appearance of "caps" on the scene
-- Revelations of new "witnesses"
-- Rudy Croes blaming Van Der Stratten
-- Kelley back on Greta with requests for arrests
-- Kermit's revelations backed with pictures and e-mails (yet being castigated)

I just have a gut feeling Aruba is STILL trying to manipulate the outcome.
 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 12:51:00 PM
OK...Dive capabilities...Saved it without the link...I think he was saying the Arubans didn't have the dive capabilities. ::MonkeyConfused::

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -

Quote from: ala_gunslinger on March 18, 2008, 12:27:48 PM


Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

Quote Kyle..
No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.


This idiot would probably also like us to believe that a police force that exists on an island nation does not have swimming capabilities or boat driving capabilities


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 12:52:04 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.
GREAT CATCH!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 12:52:39 PM
Aruba is a nation of liars.  There does not exist one person on that shit hole that is capable of speaking the truth about anything.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 12:52:49 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.

I noticed the date too, SS.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 12:54:17 PM
Janet, I agree.  The choice is to sacrifice van der Stratten and PVDS or to flush the island down the toilet, basically giving up any of their independence and clearing out the whole lot of them.  This won't happen, so van der Stratten is taking the hit.  However, my guess is that we should watch in future for a fattening of Uncle Jan's bank account.

AZLady ... I agree 100%.

Janet


Uncle Jan was pretty well ready to retire in July after Natalee disappeared but you will recall that all this changed with her disappearance and he stayed on in spite of Rudy Croes replacing him with Dompig.

How did he do this?  See my post yesterday of the letter from Eric Zaandam president of the police union stating flatly that the police union will NEVER co-operate in ANY investigation of its own.  That is why I posted that and why I think it very vital to any discussion of vd Straten.  That is how he was right back in even after Rudy replaced him with Dompig who immediately said a confession had been made, etc.

He also stated among other things that no one was going to come in and investigate him even after he left office.  How could he be so sure of this?  So with his impeding retirement anyway, perhaps he is thinking to supplement it in this manner by agreeing to take the fall.  Doubtful anything would actually be done to him anyway as I have readof rape case getting community service in The Netherlands, I kid you not.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 12:54:29 PM
I really disagree, I don't think van der straaten would agree to be a lamb anywhere. They've already admitted what they've done, many times.

Nobody wants to touch this case, and until somebody with passion or power, just one person, decides to honestly put an end to this, they can tell all the stories they want and it won't matter.

Aruba is to Holland what Joran is to Paulus, and you can see how well the "protection" is going.


I agree Frank. There is no reason Van der Straten would agree to being smeared internationally as the corrupt lead investigator who covered up the Natalee Holloway case and who could end up in prison. Makes no sense. From what we read, Rudy was responding to Straten calling the police in Aruba corrupt. I hope the all keep talking, tell us more!

All Monkeys be proud. What we've been hammering for 3 1/2 years is now coming to light!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 12:54:33 PM
OK...Dive capabilities...Saved it without the link...I think he was saying the Arubans didn't have the dive capabilities. ::MonkeyConfused::

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -

Quote from: ala_gunslinger on March 18, 2008, 12:27:48 PM


Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

Quote Kyle..
No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.


I would hope it raised a few questions.   I, as a lowly internet *******, question the meaning of the phrase "dive capability" as regards any boat in Aruba (an island where diving is a popular pastime).  As an oceanographer, I'm sure OE was more than skeptical when told the Dutch Coast Guard didn't have "dive capabilities."  That's just more than ludicrous--it's like talking in another language.



AZ - we had assumed that the 11th or 12th was the day that Panter lifted the cage with a crane.  Caps has now told us that he saw the cage still in place during a recent dive.  What was the Coast Guard doing there those two days?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 12:54:59 PM
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/Pretzer120508.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:55:14 PM
SS, I understood that the initial dive on Dec. 30 is the one performed by the people on the Persistence to get an up close look at the cage and its contents.  My understanding is that they looked but didn't touch or recover the cage contents.  However, the ROV pics lead one to believe there must be clearer and up close pics taken by these divers on the 30th, before the Aruban divers ever entered the water.  We haven't seen these pics.  Has anyone?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 12:55:45 PM
Kyle said that there were no dives between December 29th
and January 7th.......didn't he?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 12:58:11 PM
I believe the abilities of Klaas and some Monkeys are amazing in regards to enhancing the images of the cage and ... attempting to identify the content.  No offence intended but ... I can only assume that the FBI's capabilities are far superior.

This is why I contend that in the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ALL images taken by the ROV that were spared from destruction by the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI ... not just a select few.

Also ... I contend there was a moral obligation that implied that the family should also have been provided with a complete set of these spared images prior to networks being privy to them.

Janet



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 12:58:28 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.
GREAT CATCH!!!

When did Tim Trahan give the thumbs down?  I thought that was the 30th...will have to look for it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 12:58:50 PM
From Blonde's thread The Search for Natalee Holloway

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -
« Reply #740 on: March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM »
After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.
<snip>
The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

<snip>
On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.
snip>
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366321#msg366321


The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time. 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 04:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857

Quote from: private eye on March 19, 2008, 02:54:38 PM
 I am curious what the circumstances were surrounding his leave from the boat he described during which the Dutch ship came close to the trap location.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366826#msg366826

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366289#msg366289
Human remains were found


the items found inside the trap
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366281#msg366281



I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site
 "we do not have dive capability
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366325#msg366325

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap
<snip>
Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4159.340


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 12:59:07 PM
Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.

Dayhiker

If Beth and Jug had it all figured out within 72 hours ... Jan Van der Straaten most certainly did.

Janet

______

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for Dec. 5th
updated 6:18 a.m. PT, Tues., Dec. 6, 2005


TWITTY: ... Remember, within the first 24 hours, we knew who the suspects were. We knew the persons that Natalee were taken from Carlos and Charlie‘s. We knew the license plate of the gray Honda they placed her in. We knew the condition that Natalee was in. We knew the behavior or the conduct in which they engaged in with Natalee.

And then not only that, Jane, within 72 hours, we knew that their first story was totally fabricated, that within the first 72 hours, I faced a room of 12 -- at least 12 detectives, Aruban and Dutch detectives, and a lead detective, Dennis Jacobs (ph), and they knew after we reviewed video footage from the Holiday Inn casino lobby that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. They knew that those suspects were fabricating a story from day one.

<snipped>

TWITTY: Well, Jane, something that the family knew—and we have to keep reminding everyone—after 72 hours -- 72 hours—we knew definitively that these suspects were not telling the truth. We knew that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. Of course we were becoming frustrated. Who wouldn‘t, at this point? You know, we—and what was so unbelievable about this, is they knew this information and still chose to pursue the two security guards on June the 5th.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348437/


Hell we all had it figured out. It's a shame the Dutch people on Aruba running the cover-up took everyone in the rest of the world to be so stupid. That is sheer arrogance to think you can do something so obvious and thumb your nose at the public while you do it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Hotshot on December 05, 2008, 12:59:34 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.
GREAT CATCH!!!
That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 01:00:13 PM
Kyle said that there were no dives between December 29th
and January 7th.......didn't he?
That is what I recall.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 01:00:21 PM
I believe the abilities of Klaas and some Monkeys are amazing in regards to enhancing the images of the cage and ... attempting to identify the content.  No offence intended but ... I can only assume that the FBI's capabilities are far superior.

This is why I contend that in the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ALL images taken by the ROV that were spared from destruction by the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI ... not just a select few.

Also ... I contend there was a moral obligation that implied that the family should also have been provided with a complete set of these spared images prior to networks being privy to them.

Janet



I"m absolutely certain the FBI's abilities are far superior or I'm in the wrong line of business  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
In the middle diving picture above, the diver is using a camera
it seems.
I can't really tell from the pic, but I would logically believe the divers had at least one camera with them.  After all, this was the initial dive in which they were to closer investigate the cage and contents.  This had to be documented, thus a camera had to be used.  Probably a high res underwater camera that could take quite detailed pics under those conditions.

Aruba does not have photograph capabilities  :-|


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 01:00:49 PM
I don't know,--- there just seems to be so much "hopping" right now. Something is is not quite right.
-- Joran is spouting off -- implicating himself (but short of murder)
-- The whole Persistence "veracity" issues.
-- Revelations about Tim Miller (and Dave) being lured off during the sea cage episode
-- The corresponding appearance of "caps" on the scene
-- Revelations of new "witnesses"
-- Rudy Croes blaming Van Der Stratten
-- Kelley back on Greta with requests for arrests
-- Kermit's revelations backed with pictures and e-mails (yet being castigated)

I just have a gut feeling Aruba is STILL trying to manipulate the outcome.
 


I completely agree, Wreck.  I don't know what exactly they are doing but I do know they are up to something.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 01:01:48 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.
GREAT CATCH!!!
That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".
Could be -- what was the date of the dive shown on "Dateline" with the "thumbs down"?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 01:03:50 PM
SS, I understood that the initial dive on Dec. 30 is the one performed by the people on the Persistence to get an up close look at the cage and its contents.  My understanding is that they looked but didn't touch or recover the cage contents.  However, the ROV pics lead one to believe there must be clearer and up close pics taken by these divers on the 30th, before the Aruban divers ever entered the water.  We haven't seen these pics.  Has anyone?




AZ - there are three dates on the pictures.  Some were taken on December 29th, some on the 30th, and the ones with the ziplocks on the 7th.  It appears that there were multiple dives down to the cage.  I'm not sure exactly how the ROV works, but I do believe that it is remote control and connect to a cable.  I don't think they needed a diver to hold a camera because the ROV has a camera built in and it has a bright search light.  This is why ALE weren't aware that they were being filmed.  The ROV might have been sent down on the 29th by itself for upclose pictures.  With the date of the 30th on the photograph of divers, we now have proof that there was more than one dive made to the cage.  Who has the evidence?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 01:04:58 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.
GREAT CATCH!!!
That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".

In any scientific exploration, cameras and other equipment are used to capture the visual images.  The visual inspection is not left entirely to the subjective observation of a diver.  Logic tells me there had to be close up and high res pictures taken by the divers on the 30th when they first inspected the cage.  A search of this magnitude with this technology is not going to leave the initial visual inspection of the #1 target to a diver's eyesight and observation.  There are other pictures taken of the cage on the 30th.  I'm certain of it.  They didn't go this far to stop when they reached their goal and not document it on film.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 01:05:28 PM
=snipped-

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

-snipped-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 01:07:13 PM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





My point is simple.

Everyone, for the most part, concedes that Kermit is telling the truth. Kermit has asserted that remains of NH were found in the cage.

Other posters acknowledge speaking to the family of NH, as it pertains to Kermits assertions, and report back that they (the family) believe Kermit's assertions to be off base, and out in left field.

My point is: How can they both be right? Remains of NH were either found in the cage or they were not. Plain and simple.

If there are reasons beyond me for concealing the truth of the cage search, then shame on me. Was only asking a question, which seemed logical to me.


That was a fair question. I have to go back to CBB's great post. She was POSITIVE based on evidence that the blonde hair was Natalee's. I have always said I truly believe Kermit 110% believes that Natalee was found. Was she? We don't know for sure...no one can say 100% for sure yes or no...we weren't there. I can say 100% sure, Natalee's family does not have her remains..and Natalee's family does not BELIEVE...because they were not there either..but they do not believe she was found in that cage.

#43 on: Today at 10:31:10 AM   ldstlou
I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.40


Let me help you understand so that you do not mis-interpret what I have said to Jug or anyone else.

Beth was told between Christmas and New Years eve they found something and she thought it was going to be Natalee.
This was Tim Miller who saw a skull.
He called and the family. THEN the VISUAL ONLY DIVE was said to be not Natalee.
Later, Tim was ushered off the boat by John Silvetti.
And ARUBA ONLY divers went down on JANUARY 7th. The ROV was filming them.
They had no idea that these photos existed. Jug didn't know. Beth didn't know. Dave didn't know. Tim Miller didn't know.

1. I never, ever said that the family has Natalee's body

2. Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

3. Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

4. Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."


5. Now you may or may not trust, believe, or interpret the information. But, I am going to expose more soon.




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 01:09:22 PM
The pics taken by the ROV on the 29th don't show any divers, do they?  I didn't think i saw divers then.  I thought the ROV was surveying and photographing the cage on the 29th.  Then, on the 30th two Aruban divers and Tim Trahan went down for a closer investigation.  I have to believe they also photographed what they saw.  It doesn't make sense for them not to do so.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 01:10:04 PM
This is what I got going through all of Kyle's stuff...TM noticed an error and I can't bring it over, but it was 12/30 for the Thumb's down.


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.80

Re: The Search for Natalee Holloway Monday, November 26, 2007
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2008, 04:03:24 PM »

December 2007
12/15/2007-Persistence arrived Aruba
12/18/2008-Persistence began search
12/24/2007-Located trap
12/25/2007-Tim Miller-Looks like a skull-Dateline video
12/26/2007-Persistence calibrations completed
12/29/2007-Dive Series of Persistence
12/29/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down per Dateline video
12/30/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down? Per transcript. Mos etc on board
12/31/2007-Multiple Dives





Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: sharon on December 05, 2008, 01:11:52 PM
Well, SS, this is confusing, isn't it?  Joran's one bloody sneaker was in his room.  However, the second sneaker can't be both in the cage and in the pond.  I do see the picture of a similar sneaker in the cage, but I have not seen a picture of the sneaker that was supposed to be recovered from the pond.  So, if I have to choose, I believe what I see in the picture of the cage.  If other evidence is provided, then I might change my mind, but this is what I see now.


 ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyConfused::

If that is a sneaker in the trap -- it was discovered by kyle on 12/24, divers saw on 12/30, and it was probably in one of the 'baggies' photographed in the 1/7 dive. And possibly retreived -- somewhere between the 7th and the siting of the Panter above the dive site by Kyle on the 13-14 Jan.

What was the date that the sneaker supposedly was found in the pond? Feb '08? Mar '08???

When did the Persistence team search the pond?


Is it possible that the 'shoe' moved from the cage to the pond??? That they shoe in the cage became the shoe in the pond??

I think Aruba has made me suspicious of everything. lol.

Now I know it's REALLY time for me to back away from the keyboard and get back to work.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 01:16:49 PM
Klye stated: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

I don't think Kyle could state it any more plainly.  Destroy evidence.  Who doesn't understand that?  It's not just Kermit's conclusions from pics and posts.  Kyle said it--plain as day, right up front.  What would need to be destroyed if not Natalee's remains and evidence of her murder?



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 01:17:44 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.
GREAT CATCH!!!
That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".




Hotshot - where are you getting the information about the divers peeking in on the 30th, but not touching anything?  I don't recall reading that anywhere.  Could you please give us the links?  Obviously there were two dives, and it appears that two, not one dive was filmed.

There is something that doesn't make sense.  If an American diver went down on the 30th and peeked into the without touching anything, and he gave a thumbs down signal indicating that nothing was in the cage, then why did ALE return on the 7th to clean the cage of something that wasn't there on the 30th?  It was also explained to us that it wasn't a thumbs down sign, but rather an indication of low oxygen.

Ya know, I really do want to believe the Americans involved in all of this and I would like to be able to agree with everything that you are reporting that Jug says.  Why is it though that Kermit's photographs keep giving us different information and why do we keep finding discrepanices in all of the Persistence information?  I am starting to get really annoyed by the inconsistencies that keep appearing.

Was the photograph of Eduardo Mansur standing on the deck with the Tims taken on December 30th?  Was he one of the divers in the photograph dated 12/30?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 01:17:51 PM

ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!

I contend that "throwing Jan van Straaten under the bus" is a well thought out Aruban plan to bring closure to the Natalee Holloway case and ... Jan van Straaten has been provided with either threats or incentives to cooperate.  In other words ... Straaten has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb.  He has agreed to take the slap on the wrist as a consequence for obstructing the investigation in the first ten days and ... allowing all crucial evidence required to bring the suspects to justice to be destroyed.

Otherwise ... there would be a domino affect that would be very far reaching in regards to all who were involved in the happenings of the morning of May 30, 2005 ... all who where  involved in the events that led up to the happenings  of the morning of May 30, 200t and ... all those within the Dutch/Aruba administration who are involved in the coverup that has denied Natalee Holloway justice and ... put her family through a H--- on Earth for 3 1/2 years.

To make this case go away ... Rudy Croes may concede to a botched investigation caused by one of Aruba's own but ... he is not about to flush Aruba down the toilet.

Janet


You got to have faith, Janet. The whole key to bringing this case down has been to put pressure on the Dutch. That has always been the case. Aruba could never police itself. Greta and Rudy are both smearing Holland, as they should. Holland needs to react with a full investigation into the corruption. They already have enough to bring Van der Straten in on obstruction charges.

Keep the faith!


Dayhiker

You and I had determined from the getgo that Hans Mos was just going through the motions  to pacify Natalee Holloways family when he had Joran, Deepak and Satish rearrested a little over one year ago.  We were told to have faith by those who posted along side of us.  I now comprehend that those who told us to have faith in Hans Mos ... no longer have faith themselves.

I am sticking with my sense of logic on Aruba's agenda to bring the Natalee Holloway case to a close.  Jan vander Straaten will be Aruba's sacrificial lamb whose obstruction in the first ten days implies crucial evidence was destroyed and ... a just investigation is now impossible.  In other words ... "Case Closed!"

If implication does not start and end for Jan van der Straaten ... the domino effect will be so far reaching ... Chevez can just claim Aruba as another one of his conquests as he strives to take over the Carribean.

IMO

Janet



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 01:21:24 PM
SS

=snipped-

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

-snipped-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 01:23:01 PM
This post by Kyle clearly explains the three dive videos.  Kyle also qualifies the Dateline footage as not being the recorded ROV footage.  This is interesting to me and may have some significance.  Perhaps what we've seen on Dateline as the ROV initial inspection was edited to specifically not show all of the trap's contents.

 Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 02:47:47 PM »   Quote Modify Remove Split Topic

There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.  Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap.  (very small clip of this video on Dateline).  Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor.  The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

What you all really didn't know (nor Tim Miller when he said his statements to the press, neither Dateline NBC when they broadcasted their lovely special):

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap.  The trap was not recovered.  Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis.  Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

The trap in Video 1-3 was found from the first conducted ROV dive.  I found the target at 1:46 am on Christmas morning.  It was my #1 ranked priority target and therefore the first of the ROV dive series. 

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets.  None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Helen Back on December 05, 2008, 01:24:14 PM
Quote:

ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!



Janet,

I agree this seems orchestrated, especially since van der Straten's neice was posting about the ill treatment of "Uncle Jan" just before Rudy threw him under the bus. 

But I believe that this is going to happen.....the house of cards is beginning to crumble.

Rudy, Jan, Paulus, any agreements they had are not going to hold as they have lost control of the situation.  They are in a "checkmate", since Joran's latest statement.  They either have to investigate the human trafficking angle of Natalee's disappearance or produce evidence of a murder......checkmate.  They can do neither. 

This now falls to the Netherlands to investigate the ARUBA DIRTY POLICE

I am writing to the Dutch Embassy in Washington DC to demand an investigation into the

Terrorizing of Natalee Holloway and the Holloway Twitty family by the Corrupt Aruban government.

When I think of them holding this family hostage by withholding the information that they have in their possesion, forcing Beth to apologize to the perpetrators, threatening the family with discontinuing any search effort if they misbehaved, it makes my blood boil and amounts to extortion and terrorism.  Either they are holding Natalee's remains hostage, or she has been sold and is alive and in need of assistance.  Which is it?

What these monsters have done for 3 1/2 years amounts to terrorism.  Withholding information regarding the whereabouts of an American Citizen and torturing her family amount to terrrorism in my book, and that's what I'm calling it.

4200 Linnean Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20008
1-877-DUTCHHELP (phone)
1-877-388-2443 (phone)
202-362-3430 (fax)

Hello, Dutch Embassy?  Your fax machine is ringing..........

Helen Back



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 01:24:53 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 01:26:45 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::
You found ROV pictures dated 12/31 of the cage?  I have not seen these.  If possible, please provide a link.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 01:27:07 PM
Well, SS, this is confusing, isn't it?  Joran's one bloody sneaker was in his room.  However, the second sneaker can't be both in the cage and in the pond.  I do see the picture of a similar sneaker in the cage, but I have not seen a picture of the sneaker that was supposed to be recovered from the pond.  So, if I have to choose, I believe what I see in the picture of the cage.  If other evidence is provided, then I might change my mind, but this is what I see now.


 ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyConfused::

If that is a sneaker in the trap -- it was discovered by kyle on 12/24, divers saw on 12/30, and it was probably in one of the 'baggies' photographed in the 1/7 dive. And possibly retreived -- somewhere between the 7th and the siting of the Panter above the dive site by Kyle on the 13-14 Jan.

What was the date that the sneaker supposedly was found in the pond? Feb '08? Mar '08???

When did the Persistence team search the pond?


Is it possible that the 'shoe' moved from the cage to the pond??? That they shoe in the cage became the shoe in the pond??

I think Aruba has made me suspicious of everything. lol.

Now I know it's REALLY time for me to back away from the keyboard and get back to work.



The shoe in the pond would be the shoe that Urine was missing when he was seen by the witness.  It would have been found in March of 08.  The shoe in the cage would be the show that Urine was wearing when the witness saw him.  It would have been put in the cage in June 0f 2005 and photographed in Dec. of 2007.  1+1=2


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 01:28:56 PM
The following is the second  updated compilation of quotes derived from emails communication between Kermit and Kyle.

Janet

________

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: march 18, 2008:  If you want, you can get Red from SM off my back. I really don't like that guy. He thinks he knows what's going on but doesn't have a clue. I first saw the pics on the SM home page and fired off an email to Red believing that he would be understanding and help provide answers. I quickly found out what happened on my own and dealt with it. I could not believe his response.

~Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: None of us gave any statements to the authorities after the 29th. It's possible John Silvetti did, because he was the only one conversing with them after Jan 7th.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #888 on: Today at 02:43:35 AM »


Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564718#msg564718


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."

Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"

Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"

Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #903 on: Today at 03:12:23 AM »


Kyle said: "Schafer is sue crazy."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564766;topicseen#msg564766


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #883 on: Today at 02:39:52 AM »


Kyle said: " We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564707#msg564707


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »


Kyle said: "The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »


Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #888 on: Today at 02:43:35 AM »


Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564718#msg564718


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: Today at 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #882 on: Today at 02:36:28 AM »


Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday. Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564701;topicseen#msg564701


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #802 on: December 02, 2008, 05:16:26 PM »


Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564125;topicseen#msg564125


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #642 on: November 25, 2008, 10:12:27 PM »


May 8, 2008 = from Kyle: John Silvetti told me today that he may be returning to Aruba very soon for a few days.

May 19, 2008 = from Kyle:
"I couldn't get the logs from the Persistence. All things "Holloway" were stripped from the boat once it got back to Louisiana

JUNE 10, 2008 = from Kyle:
He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557914;topicseen#msg557914


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #635 on: November 25, 2008, 10:06:58 PM »


from Kyle: "It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557906;topicseen#msg557906


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #663 on: Today at 09:55:44 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg566856;topicseen#msg566856


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 01:31:26 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::
You found ROV pictures dated 12/31 of the cage?  I have not seen these.  If possible, please provide a link.

AZ...No...All I did was make a timeline from all the posts of Kyle's and his blog entries that were posted in the search thread.  I will look again really quickly and see if I got it frm the thread.

I have been working on another timeline and just pulled the ones to do with the Persistence and put in that thread.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: sharon on December 05, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
SS

I'm just trying to figure out a way that 1 + 1 = 2

Right now, 1 +1 = 3, imo,

We were told very early on about the single sneaker in his closet. I have a tendency to place weight on the very early statements that were made.

So one in the closet, one in the cage and one in the pond make 3.

Unless 2 of them are the same sneaker  ::MonkeyConfused::

jmo.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Helen Back on December 05, 2008, 01:32:41 PM

ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!

I contend that "throwing Jan van Straaten under the bus" is a well thought out Aruban plan to bring closure to the Natalee Holloway case and ... Jan van Straaten has been provided with either threats or incentives to cooperate.  In other words ... Straaten has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb.  He has agreed to take the slap on the wrist as a consequence for obstructing the investigation in the first ten days and ... allowing all crucial evidence required to bring the suspects to justice to be destroyed.

Otherwise ... there would be a domino affect that would be very far reaching in regards to all who were involved in the happenings of the morning of May 30, 2005 ... all who where  involved in the events that led up to the happenings  of the morning of May 30, 200t and ... all those within the Dutch/Aruba administration who are involved in the coverup that has denied Natalee Holloway justice and ... put her family through a H--- on Earth for 3 1/2 years.

To make this case go away ... Rudy Croes may concede to a botched investigation caused by one of Aruba's own but ... he is not about to flush Aruba down the toilet.

Janet


You got to have faith, Janet. The whole key to bringing this case down has been to put pressure on the Dutch. That has always been the case. Aruba could never police itself. Greta and Rudy are both smearing Holland, as they should. Holland needs to react with a full investigation into the corruption. They already have enough to bring Van der Straten in on obstruction charges.

Keep the faith!


Dayhiker

You and I had determined from the getgo that Hans Mos was just going through the motions  to pacify Natalee Holloways family when he had Joran, Deepak and Satish rearrested a little over one year ago.  We were told to have faith by those who posted along side of us.  I now comprehend that those who told us to have faith in Hans Mos ... no longer have faith themselves.

I am sticking with my sense of logic on Aruba's agenda to bring the Natalee Holloway case to a close.  Jan vander Straaten will be Aruba's sacrificial lamb whose obstruction in the first ten days implies crucial evidence was destroyed and ... a just investigation is now impossible.  In other words ... "Case Closed!"

If implication does not start and end for Jan van der Straaten ... the domino effect will be so far reaching ... Chevez can just claim Aruba as another one of his conquests as he strives to take over the Carribean.

IMO

Janet



Janet,

Do you really mean this?  I, for one, had great faith in Hans Mos when he first arrived on the island.  He came out with guns blazing.  I believe he is very smart, and he made very strong statements about the evidence.

Then his attitude did a complete 180.

I think that is when he got the memo........this case was never meant to be solved.

Either that, or I am completely wrong about his intentions in the beginning, but I don't think so.

I have not lost faith in myself or the things I believe in, and I never will.  I believe in many things I cannot see or prove.  That's what faith is.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 01:33:56 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::
I think Kyle DID mention several dives -- but he ALSO stated once that there were NO between the 29th and the 7th! (just another contradiction!)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 01:34:06 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::
You found ROV pictures dated 12/31 of the cage?  I have not seen these.  If possible, please provide a link.

AZ...No...All I did was make a timeline from all the posts of Kyle's and his blog entries that were posted in the search thread.  I will look again really quickly and see if I got it frm the thread.

I have been working on another timeline and just pulled the ones to do with the Persistence and put in that thread.

OK...Sorry...ROV dives...Will fix it in the timeline...

Mon 31-Dec - 1022hrs
The Persistence spent yesterday performing multiple dives with the ROV. The purpose of the dives is for collecting video of each sonar target. Typically, the sonar target is quickly identified and ruled out from the ROV video. The ROV operations lasted until dusk, where we resumed sonar survey operations through the night. Today, we are performing more ROV dives on targets of potential interest.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 01:35:08 PM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





My point is simple.

Everyone, for the most part, concedes that Kermit is telling the truth. Kermit has asserted that remains of NH were found in the cage.

Other posters acknowledge speaking to the family of NH, as it pertains to Kermits assertions, and report back that they (the family) believe Kermit's assertions to be off base, and out in left field.

My point is: How can they both be right? Remains of NH were either found in the cage or they were not. Plain and simple.

If there are reasons beyond me for concealing the truth of the cage search, then shame on me. Was only asking a question, which seemed logical to me.


That was a fair question. I have to go back to CBB's great post. She was POSITIVE based on evidence that the blonde hair was Natalee's. I have always said I truly believe Kermit 110% believes that Natalee was found. Was she? We don't know for sure...no one can say 100% for sure yes or no...we weren't there. I can say 100% sure, Natalee's family does not have her remains..and Natalee's family does not BELIEVE...because they were not there either..but they do not believe she was found in that cage.

#43 on: Today at 10:31:10 AM   ldstlou
I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.40


Let me help you understand so that you do not mis-interpret what I have said to Jug or anyone else.

Beth was told between Christmas and New Years eve they found something and she thought it was going to be Natalee.
This was Tim Miller who saw a skull.
He called and the family. THEN the VISUAL ONLY DIVE was said to be not Natalee.
Later, Tim was ushered off the boat by John Silvetti.
And ARUBA ONLY divers went down on JANUARY 7th. The ROV was filming them.
They had no idea that these photos existed. Jug didn't know. Beth didn't know. Dave didn't know. Tim Miller didn't know.

1. I never, ever said that the family has Natalee's body

2. Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

3. Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

4. Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."


5. Now you may or may not trust, believe, or interpret the information. But, I am going to expose more soon.




Thanx for your clarification on topics regarding the cage,as well as your continued posts! ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 01:35:47 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::
You found ROV pictures dated 12/31 of the cage?  I have not seen these.  If possible, please provide a link.

No pics, just a post by Kyle.

Mon 31-Dec - 1022hrs
The Persistence spent yesterday performing multiple dives with the ROV. The purpose of the dives is for collecting video of each sonar target. Typically, the sonar target is quickly identified and ruled out from the ROV video. The ROV operations lasted until dusk, where we resumed sonar survey operations through the night. Today, we are performing more ROV dives on targets of potential interest.


http://nholloway.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-01-02T11%3A01%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=9


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 01:39:08 PM
Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.





My point is simple.

Everyone, for the most part, concedes that Kermit is telling the truth. Kermit has asserted that remains of NH were found in the cage.

Other posters acknowledge speaking to the family of NH, as it pertains to Kermits assertions, and report back that they (the family) believe Kermit's assertions to be off base, and out in left field.

My point is: How can they both be right? Remains of NH were either found in the cage or they were not. Plain and simple.

If there are reasons beyond me for concealing the truth of the cage search, then shame on me. Was only asking a question, which seemed logical to me.


That was a fair question. I have to go back to CBB's great post. She was POSITIVE based on evidence that the blonde hair was Natalee's. I have always said I truly believe Kermit 110% believes that Natalee was found. Was she? We don't know for sure...no one can say 100% for sure yes or no...we weren't there. I can say 100% sure, Natalee's family does not have her remains..and Natalee's family does not BELIEVE...because they were not there either..but they do not believe she was found in that cage.

#43 on: Today at 10:31:10 AM   ldstlou
I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.40


Let me help you understand so that you do not mis-interpret what I have said to Jug or anyone else.

Beth was told between Christmas and New Years eve they found something and she thought it was going to be Natalee.
This was Tim Miller who saw a skull.
He called and the family. THEN the VISUAL ONLY DIVE was said to be not Natalee.
Later, Tim was ushered off the boat by John Silvetti.
And ARUBA ONLY divers went down on JANUARY 7th. The ROV was filming them.
They had no idea that these photos existed. Jug didn't know. Beth didn't know. Dave didn't know. Tim Miller didn't know.

1. I never, ever said that the family has Natalee's body

2. Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

3. Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

4. Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."


5. Now you may or may not trust, believe, or interpret the information. But, I am going to expose more soon.





Thank you, Kermit, for answering this question:

1. I never, ever said that the family has Natalee's body

That really threw me for a loop as I could not recall your ever having said this and it certainly changes the entire concept of what you have been saying.

I certainly hope the family has not been told that SM is accusing them of this!  That would be horrible.   ::MonkeyShocked::

Was even thinking of offering you a juicy fly to respond but maybe someone else already has one.  Too cold today for any in my area. 

Anna


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 01:39:28 PM
Something is really very wrong with all of this.


December 25th - Kyle sees a skull on his screen and Tim Miller confrims that it looks like a skull.

December 29th - the intial five pictures of the cage were taken.  We have seen those pictures and it looks like a skull.

December 30th - ALE is photographed onboard Persistence.  Additional photographs of the cage are taken.  It's clearly a skull and a shoe.

December 30th - There is a dive to examine the cage and not touch anything.  A major network is part oF the operation.  The cage is empty.  Tim Trehen gives a thumbs down to indicate that the cage is empty.

January 7th - ALE bags the contents of the cage and everything is taken away. We've seen the photographs.


THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 01:40:46 PM

You got to have faith, Janet. The whole key to bringing this case down has been to put pressure on the Dutch. That has always been the case. Aruba could never police itself. Greta and Rudy are both smearing Holland, as they should. Holland needs to react with a full investigation into the corruption. They already have enough to bring Van der Straten in on obstruction charges.

Keep the faith!


Dayhiker

You and I had determined from the getgo that Hans Mos was just going through the motions  to pacify Natalee Holloways family when he had Joran, Deepak and Satish rearrested a little over one year ago.  We were told to have faith by those who posted along side of us.  I now comprehend that those who told us to have faith in Hans Mos ... no longer have faith themselves.

I am sticking with my sense of logic on Aruba's agenda to bring the Natalee Holloway case to a close.  Jan vander Straaten will be Aruba's sacrificial lamb whose obstruction in the first ten days implies crucial evidence was destroyed and ... a just investigation is now impossible.  In other words ... "Case Closed!"

If implication does not start and end for Jan van der Straaten ... the domino effect will be so far reaching ... Chevez can just claim Aruba as another one of his conquests as he strives to take over the Carribean.

IMO

Janet



I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 01:41:12 PM
SS

=snipped-

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

-snipped-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

In other words ... there was no "our" divers except Tim Trahan.

An undertaking of this magnitude and ... the diving and the collecting of evidence meant to further justice for Natalee Holloway was entrusted to the enemy.  It just not make sense.

Janet

private eye (Beth Holloway's Brother)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 01:41:40 PM
FOXNEWS was just talking about OJ Simpsons conviction and they said if OJ can be convicted then Joran van der Sloot might be next.  ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 01:41:53 PM
Something is really very wrong with all of this.


December 25th - Kyle sees a skull on his screen and Tim Miller confrims that it looks like a skull.

December 29th - the intial five pictures of the cage were taken.  We have seen those pictures and it looks like a skull.

December 30th - ALE is photographed onboard Persistence.  Additional photographs of the cage are taken.  It's clearly a skull and a shoe.

December 30th - There is a dive to examine the cage and not touch anything.  A major network is part oF the operation.  The cage is empty.  Tim Trehen gives a thumbs down to indicate that the cage is empty.

January 7th - ALE bags the contents of the cage and everything is taken away. We've seen the photographs.


THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE


Also how could the ALE divers not know they were being photographed as Mos is clearly seen looking at photographs it has taken before the dive on Jan 7?  They had to know it had that ability and so they were likely on camera.  Did ALE ask not to be photographed during their dive or something?



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 01:42:57 PM
Kyle clearly stated that there were multiple ROV dives, but on targets other than the cage.  There were THREE ROV dives on the cage and these were on Dec. 29, Dec. 30 and Jan. 7.  The first ROV dive on Dec. 29 was only ROV, no divers.  The second dive on Dec. 30 was ROV filmed and two Aruban divers and Tim Trahan visually inspected cage.  The third dive was ROV filmed and only Aruban divers participated.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 01:43:15 PM
Quote:

ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!



Janet,

I agree this seems orchestrated, especially since van der Straten's neice was posting about the ill treatment of "Uncle Jan" just before Rudy threw him under the bus. 

But I believe that this is going to happen.....the house of cards is beginning to crumble.

Rudy, Jan, Paulus, any agreements they had are not going to hold as they have lost control of the situation.  They are in a "checkmate", since Joran's latest statement.  They either have to investigate the human trafficking angle of Natalee's disappearance or produce evidence of a murder......checkmate.  They can do neither. 

This now falls to the Netherlands to investigate the ARUBA DIRTY POLICE

I am writing to the Dutch Embassy in Washington DC to demand an investigation into the

Terrorizing of Natalee Holloway and the Holloway Twitty family by the Corrupt Aruban government.

When I think of them holding this family hostage by withholding the information that they have in their possesion, forcing Beth to apologize to the perpetrators, threatening the family with discontinuing any search effort if they misbehaved, it makes my blood boil and amounts to extortion and terrorism.  Either they are holding Natalee's remains hostage, or she has been sold and is alive and in need of assistance.  Which is it?

What these monsters have done for 3 1/2 years amounts to terrorism.  Withholding information regarding the whereabouts of an American Citizen and torturing her family amount to terrrorism in my book, and that's what I'm calling it.

4200 Linnean Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20008
1-877-DUTCHHELP (phone)
1-877-388-2443 (phone)
202-362-3430 (fax)

Hello, Dutch Embassy?  Your fax machine is ringing..........

Helen Back




Well said Helen. From the same folks that brought black slavery to the Caribbean, they now bring you terrorism!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 01:45:06 PM
FOXNEWS was just talking about OJ Simpsons conviction and they said if OJ can be convicted then Joran van der Sloot might be next.  ::MonkeyCool::


We know how the Dutch system works, Klaas. If they want something bad enough they'll bend the rules to get it. ::MonkeyWink:: ::MonkeyWink:: ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
None of these cowards believe they will be in any sort of legal jeopardy. The blaming and shaming is how they play this game. They did it with Natalee and Beth.

These Dutch who care so much about appearances get more thin-skinned by being made to look bad than caring at all about Natalee and a crime.

Look what they've already told us. The coordination began with the Tourism Board that backed the idea of attacking Natalee and defending Aruba. Steve Cohen is as guilty as Jan van der straaten in participating in a cover up. It was more like a strategy.

But it's out of control now, and the paranoid don't do well in this situation. I think Natalee haunts them literally and Rudy Croes and Joran van der sloot and Paulus are afraid to turn their heads.

If Joran can go free spinning stories, why don't you think Rudy Croes and jan van der straaten can too?

It's like they are playing power games with each other by revealing bits and pieces of what they already know, like little rounds of ammo to hurt each other.

Every day I still am shocked at the fact that no one person has the courage to stand up and risk everything by ending this nightmare. I still am amazed really.

I never believed people could be that totally without soul. They all know what happened. Nothing is beyond reality. I'm still waiting for Paulus to represent the guards in a suit against the Aruba Police Department.

Both the guards and the van der sloots have called the police "fools."

Is that a lie? Are they as Steve Cohen says "confused not corrupt?"


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 01:48:28 PM
SS

I'm just trying to figure out a way that 1 + 1 = 2

Right now, 1 +1 = 3, imo,

We were told very early on about the single sneaker in his closet. I have a tendency to place weight on the very early statements that were made.

So one in the closet, one in the cage and one in the pond make 3.

Unless 2 of them are the same sneaker  ::MonkeyConfused::

jmo.



The sneaker in the closet was the one Urine was still wearung when seen by the witness.  Beth arrived the next day and put heat on everyone.  The bloody shoe in the Sloot home became evidence and was put in the cage with other evidence like Natalee's skirt.  The shoe in the closet became the shoe in the ocean.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 01:49:29 PM
Thanks for re-posting the pictures, Klaas. Just goes to show you how swift I am. I thought this was the shoe being referred to.  ::MonkeyConfused::

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-circle.gif)


But I can see the other now. Actually, it almost looks like a pair of shoes.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 05, 2008, 01:50:06 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/vrouw_verbaasdkopie.jpg)

is this  correct ? ::MonkeyHaHa::

Steve Yuhas is a gay conservative radio and television personality in southern California.

Yuhas is featured in The Unrevealed Time Lies, a documentary film by award winning Dutch filmmaker, Renée Gielen. The documentary was released in Holland in July 2008 and in the United States in September 2008. Yuhas is not alone in this documentary as Natalee Holloway's father agreed to an interview as did justice ministers, former investigators and friends of the Holloway and Twitty family. The feature will be shown on American television and a preview was released that features Yuhas' participation and that of the others

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Yuhas202.jpg/180px-Yuhas202.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Yuhas


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 01:51:03 PM

You got to have faith, Janet. The whole key to bringing this case down has been to put pressure on the Dutch. That has always been the case. Aruba could never police itself. Greta and Rudy are both smearing Holland, as they should. Holland needs to react with a full investigation into the corruption. They already have enough to bring Van der Straten in on obstruction charges.

Keep the faith!


Dayhiker

You and I had determined from the getgo that Hans Mos was just going through the motions  to pacify Natalee Holloways family when he had Joran, Deepak and Satish rearrested a little over one year ago.  We were told to have faith by those who posted along side of us.  I now comprehend that those who told us to have faith in Hans Mos ... no longer have faith themselves.

I am sticking with my sense of logic on Aruba's agenda to bring the Natalee Holloway case to a close.  Jan vander Straaten will be Aruba's sacrificial lamb whose obstruction in the first ten days implies crucial evidence was destroyed and ... a just investigation is now impossible.  In other words ... "Case Closed!"

If implication does not start and end for Jan van der Straaten ... the domino effect will be so far reaching ... Chevez can just claim Aruba as another one of his conquests as he strives to take over the Carribean.

IMO

Janet



I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?


I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 01:51:50 PM
I have to ask this:  are these pictures taken directly from the ROV footage or are they the pics shown on Dateline that were taken from the monitor observing the ROV?  I ask because Kyle made a very specific distinction between these, as if there was reason for them to be different.  Does that make sense?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 01:53:20 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::
You found ROV pictures dated 12/31 of the cage?  I have not seen these.  If possible, please provide a link.

AZ...No...All I did was make a timeline from all the posts of Kyle's and his blog entries that were posted in the search thread.  I will look again really quickly and see if I got it frm the thread.

I have been working on another timeline and just pulled the ones to do with the Persistence and put in that thread.

OK...Sorry...ROV dives...Will fix it in the timeline...

Mon 31-Dec - 1022hrs
The Persistence spent yesterday performing multiple dives with the ROV. The purpose of the dives is for collecting video of each sonar target. Typically, the sonar target is quickly identified and ruled out from the ROV video. The ROV operations lasted until dusk, where we resumed sonar survey operations through the night. Today, we are performing more ROV dives on targets of potential interest.



Mum- he forgot to mention that divers went down with the ROV.  The ROV is a Remote Observation Vehicle.  It doesn't require a diver to accompany it to the floor of the ocean.  There might have been ROV dives on the 30th as Kyle claims in his diary, but there were also human dives on the 30th because we now have photographs dated 12/30.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 01:54:22 PM
SS

I'm just trying to figure out a way that 1 + 1 = 2

Right now, 1 +1 = 3, imo,

We were told very early on about the single sneaker in his closet. I have a tendency to place weight on the very early statements that were made.

So one in the closet, one in the cage and one in the pond make 3.

Unless 2 of them are the same sneaker  ::MonkeyConfused::

jmo.



The sneaker in the closet was the one Urine was still wearung when seen by the witness.  Beth arrived the next day and put heat on everyone.  The bloody shoe in the Sloot home became evidence and was put in the cage with other evidence like Natalee's skirt.  The shoe in the closet became the shoe in the ocean.


Thank You...Makes sense!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 01:54:38 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/vrouw_verbaasdkopie.jpg)

is this  correct ? ::MonkeyHaHa::

Steve Yuhas is a gay conservative radio and television personality in southern California.

Yuhas is featured in The Unrevealed Time Lies, a documentary film by award winning Dutch filmmaker, Renée Gielen. The documentary was released in Holland in July 2008 and in the United States in September 2008. Yuhas is not alone in this documentary as Natalee Holloway's father agreed to an interview as did justice ministers, former investigators and friends of the Holloway and Twitty family. The feature will be shown on American television and a preview was released that features Yuhas' participation and that of the others

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Yuhas202.jpg/180px-Yuhas202.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Yuhas


Yes true.  Yuhas jumped on the Natalee had it coming bandwagon early on.  He appears to hate women.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 01:57:38 PM
Something is really very wrong with all of this.


December 25th - Kyle sees a skull on his screen and Tim Miller confrims that it looks like a skull.

December 29th - the intial five pictures of the cage were taken.  We have seen those pictures and it looks like a skull.

December 30th - ALE is photographed onboard Persistence.  Additional photographs of the cage are taken.  It's clearly a skull and a shoe.

December 30th - There is a dive to examine the cage and not touch anything.  A major network is part oF the operation.  The cage is empty.  Tim Trehen gives a thumbs down to indicate that the cage is empty.

January 7th - ALE bags the contents of the cage and everything is taken away. We've seen the photographs.


THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE


Also how could the ALE divers not know they were being photographed as Mos is clearly seen looking at photographs it has taken before the dive on Jan 7?  They had to know it had that ability and so they were likely on camera.  Did ALE ask not to be photographed during their dive or something?



Also, why would they not want to be video taped?
If they were there to collect evidence that was going to be used to convict someone, I would think they would want the whole thing to be video taped so no one could argue the way the evidence was handled or whatever.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 01:58:40 PM
Well I came up with 12/31 multiple dives from somewhere in all of Kyles posts and his notes in Blonde's thread...And I am not going back to find it... ::MonkeyWaa::
You found ROV pictures dated 12/31 of the cage?  I have not seen these.  If possible, please provide a link.

AZ...No...All I did was make a timeline from all the posts of Kyle's and his blog entries that were posted in the search thread.  I will look again really quickly and see if I got it frm the thread.

I have been working on another timeline and just pulled the ones to do with the Persistence and put in that thread.

OK...Sorry...ROV dives...Will fix it in the timeline...

Mon 31-Dec - 1022hrs
The Persistence spent yesterday performing multiple dives with the ROV. The purpose of the dives is for collecting video of each sonar target. Typically, the sonar target is quickly identified and ruled out from the ROV video. The ROV operations lasted until dusk, where we resumed sonar survey operations through the night. Today, we are performing more ROV dives on targets of potential interest.



Mum- he forgot to mention that divers went down with the ROV.  The ROV is a Remote Observation Vehicle.  It doesn't require a diver to accompany it to the floor of the ocean.  There might have been ROV dives on the 30th as Kyle claims in his diary, but there were also human dives on the 30th because we now have photographs dated 12/30.

SS...The one I had wrong was for 12/31...Just ROV dives it says.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 02:00:19 PM
You wouldn't pay van der straaten to take a "fall."

He already has, why would anyone spend any money on "payoffs" anymore with so many guilty parties that are uncontrollable?

I think the recent activity is precisely because the money has dried up. Joran did mention the Kalpoe's suit and his share.

They are desperate and the only commodity they have is the truth about Natalee. I think the tide is turning. It's about who can make money on the truth now.

I bet if we had the one million dollar reward for information it might get interesting.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: sharon on December 05, 2008, 02:00:49 PM
SS

I'm just trying to figure out a way that 1 + 1 = 2

Right now, 1 +1 = 3, imo,

We were told very early on about the single sneaker in his closet. I have a tendency to place weight on the very early statements that were made.

So one in the closet, one in the cage and one in the pond make 3.

Unless 2 of them are the same sneaker  ::MonkeyConfused::

jmo.



The sneaker in the closet was the one Urine was still wearung when seen by the witness.  Beth arrived the next day and put heat on everyone.  The bloody shoe in the Sloot home became evidence and was put in the cage with other evidence like Natalee's skirt.  The shoe in the closet became the shoe in the ocean.


Also possible  ::MonkeyWink::

Thanks!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 02:02:50 PM
Thanks for re-posting the pictures, Klaas. Just goes to show you how swift I am. I thought this was the shoe being referred to.  ::MonkeyConfused::

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-circle.gif)


But I can see the other now. Actually, it almost looks like a pair of shoes.






The sneaker is up a little and to the right of the skull.  You can see the stripes on the side. I think what you have circled in red is what we blew up and someone thought was a pelvic bone.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 02:02:59 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/vrouw_verbaasdkopie.jpg)

is this  correct ? ::MonkeyHaHa::

Steve Yuhas is a gay conservative radio and television personality in southern California.

Yuhas is featured in The Unrevealed Time Lies, a documentary film by award winning Dutch filmmaker, Renée Gielen. The documentary was released in Holland in July 2008 and in the United States in September 2008. Yuhas is not alone in this documentary as Natalee Holloway's father agreed to an interview as did justice ministers, former investigators and friends of the Holloway and Twitty family. The feature will be shown on American television and a preview was released that features Yuhas' participation and that of the others

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Yuhas202.jpg/180px-Yuhas202.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Yuhas


Yes true.  Yuhas jumped on the Natalee had it coming bandwagon early on.  He appears to hate women.
"Gay Conservative"????????????????????  ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:05:16 PM
This post is also contradictory to other comments by OE.  On Feb 28 he tells us that the search team supervised the sampling of the trap.  On March 19, he says that only the Aruban sampled the trap and he was uncomfortable about the chain of custody.  So, which is it?  It can't be both.

ocean exploration: on: February 28, 2008, 10:58:40 PM   
I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?   

Oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 02:09:09 PM
Something is really very wrong with all of this.


December 25th - Kyle sees a skull on his screen and Tim Miller confrims that it looks like a skull.

December 29th - the intial five pictures of the cage were taken.  We have seen those pictures and it looks like a skull.

December 30th - ALE is photographed onboard Persistence.  Additional photographs of the cage are taken.  It's clearly a skull and a shoe.

December 30th - There is a dive to examine the cage and not touch anything.  A major network is part oF the operation.  The cage is empty.  Tim Trehen gives a thumbs down to indicate that the cage is empty.

January 7th - ALE bags the contents of the cage and everything is taken away. We've seen the photographs.


THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE


Also how could the ALE divers not know they were being photographed as Mos is clearly seen looking at photographs it has taken before the dive on Jan 7?  They had to know it had that ability and so they were likely on camera.  Did ALE ask not to be photographed during their dive or something?




Anna - Kyle said that picture was taken when ALE came onboard on the 30th.  He said that they were all sitting around his computer screen.  He made that statement when someone was asking him to identify Bulldog.  Now, if ALE was looking at the trap on the screen with images being sent up by the ROV, and Tim T and Aruba divers were photographed peeking into the cage, and we have very clear photographs of the contents of the cage on the 30th, how could they possible say that the cage was empty on the 30th, yet ALE returned on the 7th to clean out what wasn't really there.  Is this when they also told Beth and Dave that there was nothing in the cage?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 02:10:33 PM
You wouldn't pay van der straaten to take a "fall."

He already has, why would anyone spend any money on "payoffs" anymore with so many guilty parties that are uncontrollable?

I think the recent activity is precisely because the money has dried up. Joran did mention the Kalpoe's suit and his share.

They are desperate and the only commodity they have is the truth about Natalee. I think the tide is turning. It's about who can make money on the truth now.

I bet if we had the one million dollar reward for information it might get interesting.


You may be right about vd Straten not getting any payoff, Frank.  My part of that was just speculation as I think parts of AHATA can come up with any amount of money due to money laundering, etc. illegal activities that the legit businesses do not effect.

But Croes is just as dirty in other areas so I tend to think this is a circular firing squad.

Another thought, we know Uncle Jan had the phone records at one times when he made that silly drawing/graphic he did.  Did he destroy the evidence then, knowing phone records are not kept permanently? 

If so, how is Rudy going to prove anything?  I just hope it is well documented somewhere other than with ALE.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:11:31 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 02:12:56 PM
Something is really very wrong with all of this.


December 25th - Kyle sees a skull on his screen and Tim Miller confrims that it looks like a skull.

December 29th - the intial five pictures of the cage were taken.  We have seen those pictures and it looks like a skull.

December 30th - ALE is photographed onboard Persistence.  Additional photographs of the cage are taken.  It's clearly a skull and a shoe.

December 30th - There is a dive to examine the cage and not touch anything.  A major network is part oF the operation.  The cage is empty.  Tim Trehen gives a thumbs down to indicate that the cage is empty.

January 7th - ALE bags the contents of the cage and everything is taken away. We've seen the photographs.


THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE


Also how could the ALE divers not know they were being photographed as Mos is clearly seen looking at photographs it has taken before the dive on Jan 7?  They had to know it had that ability and so they were likely on camera.  Did ALE ask not to be photographed during their dive or something?




Anna - Kyle said that picture was taken when ALE came onboard on the 30th.  He said that they were all sitting around his computer screen.  He made that statement when someone was asking him to identify Bulldog.  Now, if ALE was looking at the trap on the screen with images being sent up by the ROV, and Tim T and Aruba divers were photographed peeking into the cage, and we have very clear photographs of the contents of the cage on the 30th, how could they possible say that the cage was empty on the 30th, yet ALE returned on the 7th to clean out what wasn't really there.  Is this when they also told Beth and Dave that there was nothing in the cage?
I just don't see how anyone seriously looking into this could be satified that everything is Kosher with the Persistence search.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 02:13:02 PM

ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!

I contend that "throwing Jan van Straaten under the bus" is a well thought out Aruban plan to bring closure to the Natalee Holloway case and ... Jan van Straaten has been provided with either threats or incentives to cooperate.  In other words ... Straaten has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb.  He has agreed to take the slap on the wrist as a consequence for obstructing the investigation in the first ten days and ... allowing all crucial evidence required to bring the suspects to justice to be destroyed.

Otherwise ... there would be a domino affect that would be very far reaching in regards to all who were involved in the happenings of the morning of May 30, 2005 ... all who where  involved in the events that led up to the happenings  of the morning of May 30, 200t and ... all those within the Dutch/Aruba administration who are involved in the coverup that has denied Natalee Holloway justice and ... put her family through a H--- on Earth for 3 1/2 years.

To make this case go away ... Rudy Croes may concede to a botched investigation caused by one of Aruba's own but ... he is not about to flush Aruba down the toilet.

Janet


You got to have faith, Janet. The whole key to bringing this case down has been to put pressure on the Dutch. That has always been the case. Aruba could never police itself. Greta and Rudy are both smearing Holland, as they should. Holland needs to react with a full investigation into the corruption. They already have enough to bring Van der Straten in on obstruction charges.

Keep the faith!


Dayhiker

You and I had determined from the getgo that Hans Mos was just going through the motions  to pacify Natalee Holloways family when he had Joran, Deepak and Satish rearrested a little over one year ago.  We were told to have faith by those who posted along side of us.  I now comprehend that those who told us to have faith in Hans Mos ... no longer have faith themselves.

I am sticking with my sense of logic on Aruba's agenda to bring the Natalee Holloway case to a close.  Jan vander Straaten will be Aruba's sacrificial lamb whose obstruction in the first ten days implies crucial evidence was destroyed and ... a just investigation is now impossible.  In other words ... "Case Closed!"

If implication does not start and end for Jan van der Straaten ... the domino effect will be so far reaching ... Chevez can just claim Aruba as another one of his conquests as he strives to take over the Carribean.

IMO

Janet



Janet,

Do you really mean this?  I, for one, had great faith in Hans Mos when he first arrived on the island.  He came out with guns blazing.  I believe he is very smart, and he made very strong statements about the evidence.

Then his attitude did a complete 180.

I think that is when he got the memo........this case was never meant to be solved.

Either that, or I am completely wrong about his intentions in the beginning, but I don't think so.

I have not lost faith in myself or the things I believe in, and I never will.  I believe in many things I cannot see or prove.  That's what faith is.



Helen ... I do not have faith that ANYBODY in the Aruban administration is pursing justice for Natalee Holloway.  The implication of the domino effect if Joran and Paulus van der Sloot were to be held accountable for their participation in the events that encompass the morning of May 30, 2005 is so far reaching.

However ... the planned implication of Jan van der Sloot with the understanding that there will be no domino effect may just work.   

Janet


JOHN KELLY

Holloway Attorney: 'Extraordinarily Painful'
Tuesday, December 04, 2007


KELLY: Well, in their press release and even in conversations. I had a long discussion with him Thanksgiving morning after the arrests, and you know, he indicated that they were very confident, this new evidence they had, this incriminating evidence. And it turns out, quite frankly, that it is nothing new ...

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So you can say with 100 percent certainly there's nothing new, right?

KELLY:  I can say it with 99 percent.

<snipped>

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY ATTORNEY: Disappointing, Greta. I think it was disappointing to me and actually extraordinarily painful and almost cruel for Beth and Dave after being down there.

They'd like to get some answers and they'd like to see some progress made. And it's not fair to bring them down there with the false promises, with raised expectations, sort of a dog and pony show down there with no substance.

And it was — it just really took whatever spirit, almost, that Beth and Dave had left, went through that this weekend. It was really — it was terribly painful, for lack of a better expression.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314966,00.html



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 05, 2008, 02:16:20 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/vrouw_verbaasdkopie.jpg)

is this  correct ? ::MonkeyHaHa::

Steve Yuhas is a gay conservative radio and television personality in southern California.

Yuhas is featured in The Unrevealed Time Lies, a documentary film by award winning Dutch filmmaker, Renée Gielen. The documentary was released in Holland in July 2008 and in the United States in September 2008. Yuhas is not alone in this documentary as Natalee Holloway's father agreed to an interview as did justice ministers, former investigators and friends of the Holloway and Twitty family. The feature will be shown on American television and a preview was released that features Yuhas' participation and that of the others

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Yuhas202.jpg/180px-Yuhas202.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Yuhas


Yes true.  Yuhas jumped on the Natalee had it coming bandwagon early on.  He appears to hate women.
"Gay Conservative"????????????????????  ::MonkeyConfused::

he examines the  Holloway fund   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:16:28 PM
You wouldn't pay van der straaten to take a "fall."

He already has, why would anyone spend any money on "payoffs" anymore with so many guilty parties that are uncontrollable?

I think the recent activity is precisely because the money has dried up. Joran did mention the Kalpoe's suit and his share.

They are desperate and the only commodity they have is the truth about Natalee. I think the tide is turning. It's about who can make money on the truth now.

I bet if we had the one million dollar reward for information it might get interesting.


You may be right about vd Straten not getting any payoff, Frank.  My part of that was just speculation as I think parts of AHATA can come up with any amount of money due to money laundering, etc. illegal activities that the legit businesses do not effect.

But Croes is just as dirty in other areas so I tend to think this is a circular firing squad.

Another thought, we know Uncle Jan had the phone records at one times when he made that silly drawing/graphic he did.  Did he destroy the evidence then, knowing phone records are not kept permanently? 

If so, how is Rudy going to prove anything?  I just hope it is well documented somewhere other than with ALE.
I do think the money is drying up and that and his own exile provoked Joran into talking to Greta.  I wonder too how Rudy can make these accusations unless he has documentation to back them up.  I remember a long time ago people saying that the real power on Aruba was in the information people held against others.  PVDS was said to have lots of dirt on others, and this was the source of his power.  I don't doubt Rudy and others have learned to gather and archive information they might use in the future to wield power over others.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 02:16:40 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

maybe Kyle had a change of heart in March after he failed to "sell" the pics in February!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 05, 2008, 02:17:46 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.
GREAT CATCH!!!
That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".




Hotshot - where are you getting the information about the divers peeking in on the 30th, but not touching anything?  I don't recall reading that anywhere.  Could you please give us the links?  Obviously there were two dives, and it appears that two, not one dive was filmed.

There is something that doesn't make sense.  If an American diver went down on the 30th and peeked into the without touching anything, and he gave a thumbs down signal indicating that nothing was in the cage, then why did ALE return on the 7th to clean the cage of something that wasn't there on the 30th?  It was also explained to us that it wasn't a thumbs down sign, but rather an indication of low oxygen.

Ya know, I really do want to believe the Americans involved in all of this and I would like to be able to agree with everything that you are reporting that Jug says.  Why is it though that Kermit's photographs keep giving us different information and why do we keep finding discrepanices in all of the Persistence information?  I am starting to get really annoyed by the inconsistencies that keep appearing.

Was the photograph of Eduardo Mansur standing on the deck with the Tims taken on December 30th?  Was he one of the divers in the photograph dated 12/30?

My question is WHO ALL are involved in the documentary?  Too many people SEEM to be in the know yet we are discouraged from asking noticiable questions. JMO


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 02:17:47 PM
Well, I still don't know what to think of any of this.

I see all kinds of stuff in the trap.  Was it ALL taken or just the few items we see in the baggies?

I don't know anything about any trap and what was in it or not.

Who were the experts who verified it was Natalee's remains?  Anyone know more about that?  I recall something about DNA but not much as I never really thought Natalee was in the trap.

Now I don't know anything about all that.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 02:18:03 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.





AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 02:20:14 PM
Judge sentences O.J. Simpson to 15-plus years in prison for Las Vegas hotel armed robbery, kidnapping — 61-year-old disgraced Hall of Famer will be eligible for parole after six years.

http://www.foxnews.com/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 02:21:28 PM
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/475441/8_68_120508_OJ10.jpg)


 ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:23:29 PM
Well, I still don't know what to think of any of this.

I see all kinds of stuff in the trap.  Was it ALL taken or just the few items we see in the baggies?

I don't know anything about any trap and what was in it or not.

Who were the experts who verified it was Natalee's remains?  Anyone know more about that?  I recall something about DNA but not much as I never really thought Natalee was in the trap.

Now I don't know anything about all that.


Anna, this might be obvious to others, but I find it puzzling.  Why in the world are the items in the trap in zip lock bags?   The items in the trap were placed in the zip lock bags and then the bags put back into the trap.  For what purpose?  It seems to me that the items in the trap should be removed from the trap, placed into zip lock bags, and then taken to the surface for further examination.  I can't for the life of me figure out why the pics show the trap items in zip lock bags inside the trap.  This just seems so contrived.  The didn't test the items and then return them to the trap still in the baggies, did they?  Time wouldn't have allowed for this as the date is Jan. 7, the day they supposedly retrieved the items.  I just don't get why the items in the zip lock bags are photographed inside the trap. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 02:23:38 PM
I don't know,--- there just seems to be so much "hopping" right now. Something is is not quite right.
-- Joran is spouting off -- implicating himself (but short of murder)
-- The whole Persistence "veracity" issues.
-- Revelations about Tim Miller (and Dave) being lured off during the sea cage episode
-- The corresponding appearance of "caps" on the scene
-- Revelations of new "witnesses"
-- Rudy Croes blaming Van Der Stratten
-- Kelley back on Greta with requests for arrests
-- Kermit's revelations backed with pictures and e-mails (yet being castigated)

I just have a gut feeling Aruba is STILL trying to manipulate the outcome.
 
Without a doubt.. There is something about all of this ..
It is so much larger then Paulus and Van Stratten..
Marcos is one of those things.. Where did he come from ? Why Then ? Where is he Now ?
We even see him on video with Tim..  Hit and Run..  ::MonkeyConfused::
Since the beginning things have happened that are so unusual, compare it with any other missing person/murder case you want.. Nothing compares to what we have seen in this case.
We alone as a group have been witness to each and every twist and turn. The whole world has no time to study this case in great detail. They only see a few things. What we have witnessed is unprecedented.
The mention of Hugo Chavez and his desire to OWN Aruba and Oduber so willing to let him have it.. This is True Fact.. Documented in news reports
It does start with Paulus and I do believe Van Stratten is there also.. Beyond that is a cover-up like no other in history. All over a missing girl named Natalee Holloway.
WHY ?

MY political theory on this I put in the back shelf.. It still sits there, as I have gone with the theory that Paulus acted alone with a group of friends to protect his son..
My stomach turns with each thought on ALL that has happened, as it does not make sense this many people could be involved..without the truth being told at some point.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Helen Back on December 05, 2008, 02:23:39 PM
Something is really very wrong with all of this.


December 25th - Kyle sees a skull on his screen and Tim Miller confrims that it looks like a skull.

December 29th - the intial five pictures of the cage were taken.  We have seen those pictures and it looks like a skull.

December 30th - ALE is photographed onboard Persistence.  Additional photographs of the cage are taken.  It's clearly a skull and a shoe.

December 30th - There is a dive to examine the cage and not touch anything.  A major network is part oF the operation.  The cage is empty.  Tim Trehen gives a thumbs down to indicate that the cage is empty.

January 7th - ALE bags the contents of the cage and everything is taken away. We've seen the photographs.


THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE


Also how could the ALE divers not know they were being photographed as Mos is clearly seen looking at photographs it has taken before the dive on Jan 7?  They had to know it had that ability and so they were likely on camera.  Did ALE ask not to be photographed during their dive or something?




Anna - Kyle said that picture was taken when ALE came onboard on the 30th.  He said that they were all sitting around his computer screen.  He made that statement when someone was asking him to identify Bulldog.  Now, if ALE was looking at the trap on the screen with images being sent up by the ROV, and Tim T and Aruba divers were photographed peeking into the cage, and we have very clear photographs of the contents of the cage on the 30th, how could they possible say that the cage was empty on the 30th, yet ALE returned on the 7th to clean out what wasn't really there.  Is this when they also told Beth and Dave that there was nothing in the cage?

The best part of this is...........

If the contents of the trap are videotaped on the 30th and subsequently when there was "no evidence" or "other evidence" and that evidence was submitted to the FBI, Hans Mos's complicity in the cover up is vedeotaped.  Checkmate again.  That's gotta hurt.  He's in worse shape than Janssen.

I don't think van der Straten is going down alone.

Taped evidence is very powerful, just ask OJ.

 ::MonkeyWink::

Janet,

We are in total agreement that NO ONE in the Aruba administration is pursuing justice for Natalee Holloway.  On the contrary, they are complicit in the obstruction of justice.


But the cover up train has been completely de-railed!  It's gone way past containment, and Greta, John Q. and Peter DeVries will not let this go. 

I think all the posts you have brilliantly compiled demonstrate that there is video-taped evidence, known by Kyle, and Kermit to have been submitted to the family and the FBI.  I have faith that there is enough evidence to tumble the Aruba Dirty Police, and the rest of the motley crew.


We agree.  Have faith.  Keep gathering evidence. ::MonkeyHaHa::



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: msmarple on December 05, 2008, 02:23:56 PM
What a tangled web the cage has going! No opinions here, but I did perhaps catch something others might have missed.

ldstlou posted two good items in the previous thread, both on page 48, that I am bringing forward. All bold face added by me, plus the inserted comment in blue.

Quote
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

De wereld draait door 04-12-2008 ; Hero Brinkman about statements Rudy Croes

Host mentions two subjects he wants to talk about...two reasons to invite Hero Brinkman...asks Hero with which subject he wants to start. The Antilles?

Hero: Yes, please.

H: Well the case...

Hero: Stay there (as in: only talk about that subject).

H: Stay there?

Hero: Yes, as far as I'm concerned yes.

H: No, I will talk about the terror threaths with you as well, if you don't mind.

H: The minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, has made public now that police chief Jan van der Straten, a Dutchman, had been sleeping the first ten days on Aruba, on purpose, because he's friends with Paul van der Sloot...the father of Joran...and this way the investigation….well actually corrupt from the beginning....you could say. To be short: there wasn't a decent investigation.

Hero: Yeah.

H: What's this?

Hero: I heard this before already; I had gotten a lot of tips from the Aruban community...also from the police that this was going on.

H: To be clear; you are known for your opinion that Aruba and the Dutch Antilles are a corrupt gang. That is a clear point of view and you might get tipped to confirm this. Did you know exactly how it happened...how it's in the papers now?

Hero: They're old stories...but it's the first time a Minister admits this....but only after he got problems with that police chief who was critical concerning the police department on Aruba. But it's completely incomprehensible that he's coming out with this after all those years.

H: That man knew about this all these years!

Hero: Yeah, apparently so.

H: So he's just as corrupt as...

Hero: Well, he just went through an investigation concerning corruption...and I'm not sure there is a verdict about that already...and this is really not that abnormal in Aruba - the Antilles.

H: Does this strengthen your opinion nothing is going right there?

Hero: It's no good there; definitely.

H: So in that way I almost have to congratulate you...you are right.

Hero: No, no... Actually you shouldn't congratulate any Dutchman that pays taxes but actually you should condole them. It is awful that we send millions and millions to those islands and every time it turns out it's a banana republic.

H: What are we going to do about it?

Hero: Sell it.

H: Sell?

Hero: Ah...yeah.

Other guest: That's a good one.

Hero: If there's money to be get out of it....No of course (as in: of course we're not going to sell it).

Hero: We have to pursue a path where those islands become completely independent from the Netherlands. The articles of association has to change completely; new articles of associaton have to be formed in a manner that the island can become completely independent.

H: This case of Natalee Holloway, which has become a case with mythical proportions by now by Peter R. de Vries.....should we do something about that?

Hero: Yes, I do think so. I think we need to get to the bottom of it.

H: How are we going to do this?

Hero: I've requested a letter from the Ministry, because of the statements from Rudy Croes I want to know what the government thinks about this....if it's correct. If the accusations of Minister Croes are correct; for example that a Dutch Minister requested 3 years ago that the fact that Joran was a Dutchman should be played down...let's..

H: Who could that have been? He didn't say which Minister...that can only be one though, right?

Hero: I'm going to ask the government...and they will surely answer me.

H: Who do you think it is?

Hero: I'm not going to tell you that.

H: Don't you think it's Hirsch Ballin? {I *think* this *might* be that elusive name that Jossy dropped on Greta's show - msmarple}

Hero: I think a lot..and I might think  the same as you but I'm not going to say (what and the way he said it: he thinks it's Hirsch Ballin...MO)

H: A parliamentary investigation...you mentioned that before as well when it's about the Antilles & Aruba...you're still thinking about that?

Hero: Well, look...I just want to get to the bottom of this…but first we'll have a debate that will come from the letter I sent to the Ministry....If I don't get answers then I think we need to have a parliamentary investigation.

H: What do you think of the case Joran van der Sloot? We've heard so many stories by now...Peter R. de Vries did his best.

Hero: Yes, absolutely.

H: What do you think? Where is Natalee Holloway?

Hero: I'm afraid she's in the ocean.

H: Then the theory of Peter R. de Vries...the car conversations are correct according to you?

Hero: Uhmm..yeah, I do think so. But again, we can think about what possibly happened.....

H: Yeah...I was just curious what you think happened.

Hero: Well, that is what I think. But that's not really important...there has to come an investigation. I would like the Dutch government to send the National Police Internal Investigations Department to Aruba; to at least investigate the claims of Minister Croes. If that's true it could give a new opening in this awful case.

H: That the father is involved as well?

Hero: Yes. That is a good possibility.

Other guest: Then you also get that this police chief Van der Straten is also involved then...in fact you get a whole new cesspool.

Hero: Yeah, but again...it's the Antilles...and the Antilles are on big cesspool.

Other guest: that's why I think it should stay with us....in some ways it's a good soap...every time I hear stories about that banana republic there...in the end we are responsible for it......you can't say: sell it.....we need to get rid of it. You can't make them independent.

Hero: You can make it independent.

Other guest: ....(can't hear what he says)

Hero: I am convinced, if you don't give the people money and say...well you have a lot of debt...(Hero gets interrupted by the other guest a bit...can't hear what he's saying)...we are willing to invest 2 billion...because that's what we're planning to do; 2,5 billion we are going to invest....we are willing to do that but in the end you need to be completely independent from the Netherlands....than they will go along with that. Holland sold itself way to cheap....that's the complete story.

* * *

… plus this from amigoe.com - I am a bit surprised that it was published:

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php (http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php)

Quote
Holloway-case messed up by nepotism
4 Dec, 2008, 10:08 (GMT -04:00)


ORANJESTAD -- Jan van der Straten has messed up the investigation in the first ten days after it got out that the American teenager Natalee Holloway had disappeared. He helped his 'friend' Paul van der Sloot to protect his suspected son Joran.


Minister Rudy Croes of Justice speaks frankly about the initial stage of the Natalee Holloway investigation.

Justice-minister Rudy Croes says this now that he feels attacked by the former chief of police and the first investigation leader of the case. Van der Straten has criticized certain aspects of the Police Corps (KPA) earlier this week. "He has also compared our Guarda Nos Costa with a politically driven group à la Chávez (Venezuelan president)", says Croes. "He is an activist of the opposition party AVP, that's why, but he forgets that it is the Natalee Holloway-case that was driven by favouritism."

Wait till retirement
"I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open", continues the minister. "But the time has come to tell the truth. When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally: 'I can't let this happen to my friend Paul'. And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot."

According to Croes, Van der Straten has perhaps consciously deployed the so-called flexiteam after the disappearance of Natalee. "He said in May 2005: 'I can solve this with my flexiteam'. As everybody knows, the flexiteam was a team that was put into action when the regular police team was over-occupied; for example during carnival.
A detective could be included in the team, but it was no police-team that was capable of doing an investigation. Why didn't he call in the taya-team (police officers with a lot of expertise and experience – red.)?"

There are more things that went wrong. "Why was a beach-bum accused at that time, who has been a choller before? He had supposedly done it, while internally it was known that he hadn't done it. Very special is also the fact that the Dutch language was used during Joran's interrogation, while he is fluent in Papiamento, same as our detective. Our people could have done their work much better if the conversations were done in their own language. Why was he so privileged? Simply because it were 'Dutch-friends'; all three of them: Joran, Paul, and Jan. Don't forget that a Dutch minister had asked me at that time not to mention that Joran is a European Dutch citizen. I won't say who this person is, but if by any chance I have to mention his name, I definitely will. We felt abandoned by the Netherlands when Aruba was so devastated by the case. I have told this to the Dutch premier Balkenende, state secretary Bijleveld (Kingdom Relations), and minister Hirsch-Ballin (Justice). But until now, everybody has remained quit and has let the world besmear Aruba's name. They abandoned us and let us suffer."

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days? In the case of Marlies van der Kouwe in Bonaire, police officers were taken off the case because they have failed. I challenge Van der Straten and Paul van der Sloot to come up with clarifications, so that Aruba's name can be cleared from this mess (porkeria).




 



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 02:24:44 PM
Judge sentences O.J. Simpson to 15-plus years in prison for Las Vegas hotel armed robbery, kidnapping — 61-year-old disgraced Hall of Famer will be eligible for parole after six years.

http://www.foxnews.com/


And no one died or was disappeared.

Just couldn't do the right thing as we so often see in sociopaths.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 02:24:49 PM
None of these cowards believe they will be in any sort of legal jeopardy. The blaming and shaming is how they play this game. They did it with Natalee and Beth.

These Dutch who care so much about appearances get more thin-skinned by being made to look bad than caring at all about Natalee and a crime.

Look what they've already told us. The coordination began with the Tourism Board that backed the idea of attacking Natalee and defending Aruba. Steve Cohen is as guilty as Jan van der straaten in participating in a cover up. It was more like a strategy.

But it's out of control now, and the paranoid don't do well in this situation. I think Natalee haunts them literally and Rudy Croes and Joran van der sloot and Paulus are afraid to turn their heads.

If Joran can go free spinning stories, why don't you think Rudy Croes and jan van der straaten can too?

It's like they are playing power games with each other by revealing bits and pieces of what they already know, like little rounds of ammo to hurt each other.

Every day I still am shocked at the fact that no one person has the courage to stand up and risk everything by ending this nightmare. I still am amazed really.

I never believed people could be that totally without soul. They all know what happened. Nothing is beyond reality. I'm still waiting for Paulus to represent the guards in a suit against the Aruba Police Department.

Both the guards and the van der sloots have called the police "fools."

Is that a lie? Are they as Steve Cohen says "confused not corrupt?"



Mitch said on Greta's program Monday night that Van der Straten told them that any questions the family wanted answered would have to go through the Aruba Tourism Board. Who was on that board? ANTONIO CARLO, Joran's lawyer and PVDS' good buddy future business partner to be.

Who worked with the tourism boards ATA and AHATA? Steve Cohen. I think Dana needs to get Steve back on to play hardball.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:26:19 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.





AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.
No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:32:29 PM
Hirsch Ballin is the Netherlands Minister of Justice.  His biography is at:

http://english.justitie.nl/organisation/organisational-chart/biography-hirsch-ballin.aspx


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 02:33:00 PM

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?


I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet



Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 02:38:52 PM
Quote from: MumInOhio
Thanks Lala's for reminding me...

Here is the link for some early discussions in Shango on Clyde Burke. Kermie used a post to back up one of his posts...

Ask Lala's and Finngirl...It is all about context...  ::MonkeyWink::

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2860


Maybe you have to explain the context...

Good Morning!...Shango 101 Context?

I have to agree.  Context is the key to working with the riddle posts.  Back when this came to light about the identity of Simian I felt the arguments were very compelling.  For me, that solidified a second identity for, with Van Der Straaten as Shango's Dirty Hand and Armin as Simian.

(I posted my reasaons for identifying Van Der Straaten at around page 10-13 of the first Simian/Shango thread.)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: the big hammer on December 05, 2008, 02:42:45 PM
Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them  to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 02:44:53 PM

I spoke to Jug again this morning. He asked me to please try and keep everyone focused on what is happening NOW!! It could be HUGE!!! They really finally have real HOPE!! that the cover-up we have been investigating for over three and a have years is FINALLY going to be blown wide open. It is very real!! A lot is happening behind the scenes that we don't know of. The focus right now should not be on who is right or wrong amounst the Monkeys, it should be on JAN VAN DER STRAATEN!!! He holds ALL the answers!! And he is sweating bullets along with paulus right now I am sure!!

Lou,
Does Jug put any credence into Joran's latest interview with Greta?  Does he think Joran revealed anything then?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 02:47:04 PM
Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them  to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 05, 2008, 02:47:24 PM

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?


I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet



Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

Are you kidding, he isnt going to do any time.  He is probably covered under the same law Paulus is where they can lie and screw up the investigation because he is family.  After all, van der straten is Jorans godfather and should be allowed to sabotage the investigation just the same as Paulus


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 02:49:41 PM
What a tangled web the cage has going! No opinions here, but I did perhaps catch something others might have missed.

ldstlou posted two good items in the previous thread, both on page 48, that I am bringing forward. All bold face added by me, plus the inserted comment in blue.

Quote
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

De wereld draait door 04-12-2008 ; Hero Brinkman about statements Rudy Croes

Host mentions two subjects he wants to talk about...two reasons to invite Hero Brinkman...asks Hero with which subject he wants to start. The Antilles?

Hero: Yes, please.

H: Well the case...

Hero: Stay there (as in: only talk about that subject).

H: Stay there?

Hero: Yes, as far as I'm concerned yes.

H: No, I will talk about the terror threaths with you as well, if you don't mind.

H: The minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, has made public now that police chief Jan van der Straten, a Dutchman, had been sleeping the first ten days on Aruba, on purpose, because he's friends with Paul van der Sloot...the father of Joran...and this way the investigation….well actually corrupt from the beginning....you could say. To be short: there wasn't a decent investigation.

Hero: Yeah.

H: What's this?

Hero: I heard this before already; I had gotten a lot of tips from the Aruban community...also from the police that this was going on.

H: To be clear; you are known for your opinion that Aruba and the Dutch Antilles are a corrupt gang. That is a clear point of view and you might get tipped to confirm this. Did you know exactly how it happened...how it's in the papers now?

Hero: They're old stories...but it's the first time a Minister admits this....but only after he got problems with that police chief who was critical concerning the police department on Aruba. But it's completely incomprehensible that he's coming out with this after all those years.

H: That man knew about this all these years!

Hero: Yeah, apparently so.

H: So he's just as corrupt as...

Hero: Well, he just went through an investigation concerning corruption...and I'm not sure there is a verdict about that already...and this is really not that abnormal in Aruba - the Antilles.

H: Does this strengthen your opinion nothing is going right there?

Hero: It's no good there; definitely.

H: So in that way I almost have to congratulate you...you are right.

Hero: No, no... Actually you shouldn't congratulate any Dutchman that pays taxes but actually you should condole them. It is awful that we send millions and millions to those islands and every time it turns out it's a banana republic.

H: What are we going to do about it?

Hero: Sell it.

H: Sell?

Hero: Ah...yeah.

Other guest: That's a good one.

Hero: If there's money to be get out of it....No of course (as in: of course we're not going to sell it).

Hero: We have to pursue a path where those islands become completely independent from the Netherlands. The articles of association has to change completely; new articles of associaton have to be formed in a manner that the island can become completely independent.

H: This case of Natalee Holloway, which has become a case with mythical proportions by now by Peter R. de Vries.....should we do something about that?

Hero: Yes, I do think so. I think we need to get to the bottom of it.

H: How are we going to do this?

Hero: I've requested a letter from the Ministry, because of the statements from Rudy Croes I want to know what the government thinks about this....if it's correct. If the accusations of Minister Croes are correct; for example that a Dutch Minister requested 3 years ago that the fact that Joran was a Dutchman should be played down...let's..

H: Who could that have been? He didn't say which Minister...that can only be one though, right?

Hero: I'm going to ask the government...and they will surely answer me.

H: Who do you think it is?

Hero: I'm not going to tell you that.

H: Don't you think it's Hirsch Ballin? {I *think* this *might* be that elusive name that Jossy dropped on Greta's show - msmarple}

Hero: I think a lot..and I might think  the same as you but I'm not going to say (what and the way he said it: he thinks it's Hirsch Ballin...MO)

H: A parliamentary investigation...you mentioned that before as well when it's about the Antilles & Aruba...you're still thinking about that?

Hero: Well, look...I just want to get to the bottom of this…but first we'll have a debate that will come from the letter I sent to the Ministry....If I don't get answers then I think we need to have a parliamentary investigation.

H: What do you think of the case Joran van der Sloot? We've heard so many stories by now...Peter R. de Vries did his best.

Hero: Yes, absolutely.

H: What do you think? Where is Natalee Holloway?

Hero: I'm afraid she's in the ocean.

H: Then the theory of Peter R. de Vries...the car conversations are correct according to you?

Hero: Uhmm..yeah, I do think so. But again, we can think about what possibly happened.....

H: Yeah...I was just curious what you think happened.

Hero: Well, that is what I think. But that's not really important...there has to come an investigation. I would like the Dutch government to send the National Police Internal Investigations Department to Aruba; to at least investigate the claims of Minister Croes. If that's true it could give a new opening in this awful case.

H: That the father is involved as well?

Hero: Yes. That is a good possibility.

Other guest: Then you also get that this police chief Van der Straten is also involved then...in fact you get a whole new cesspool.

Hero: Yeah, but again...it's the Antilles...and the Antilles are on big cesspool.

Other guest: that's why I think it should stay with us....in some ways it's a good soap...every time I hear stories about that banana republic there...in the end we are responsible for it......you can't say: sell it.....we need to get rid of it. You can't make them independent.

Hero: You can make it independent.

Other guest: ....(can't hear what he says)

Hero: I am convinced, if you don't give the people money and say...well you have a lot of debt...(Hero gets interrupted by the other guest a bit...can't hear what he's saying)...we are willing to invest 2 billion...because that's what we're planning to do; 2,5 billion we are going to invest....we are willing to do that but in the end you need to be completely independent from the Netherlands....than they will go along with that. Holland sold itself way to cheap....that's the complete story.

* * *

… plus this from amigoe.com - I am a bit surprised that it was published:

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php (http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php)

Quote
Holloway-case messed up by nepotism
4 Dec, 2008, 10:08 (GMT -04:00)


ORANJESTAD -- Jan van der Straten has messed up the investigation in the first ten days after it got out that the American teenager Natalee Holloway had disappeared. He helped his 'friend' Paul van der Sloot to protect his suspected son Joran.


Minister Rudy Croes of Justice speaks frankly about the initial stage of the Natalee Holloway investigation.

Justice-minister Rudy Croes says this now that he feels attacked by the former chief of police and the first investigation leader of the case. Van der Straten has criticized certain aspects of the Police Corps (KPA) earlier this week. "He has also compared our Guarda Nos Costa with a politically driven group à la Chávez (Venezuelan president)", says Croes. "He is an activist of the opposition party AVP, that's why, but he forgets that it is the Natalee Holloway-case that was driven by favouritism."

Wait till retirement
"I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open", continues the minister. "But the time has come to tell the truth. When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally: 'I can't let this happen to my friend Paul'. And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot."

According to Croes, Van der Straten has perhaps consciously deployed the so-called flexiteam after the disappearance of Natalee. "He said in May 2005: 'I can solve this with my flexiteam'. As everybody knows, the flexiteam was a team that was put into action when the regular police team was over-occupied; for example during carnival.
A detective could be included in the team, but it was no police-team that was capable of doing an investigation. Why didn't he call in the taya-team (police officers with a lot of expertise and experience – red.)?"

There are more things that went wrong. "Why was a beach-bum accused at that time, who has been a choller before? He had supposedly done it, while internally it was known that he hadn't done it. Very special is also the fact that the Dutch language was used during Joran's interrogation, while he is fluent in Papiamento, same as our detective. Our people could have done their work much better if the conversations were done in their own language. Why was he so privileged? Simply because it were 'Dutch-friends'; all three of them: Joran, Paul, and Jan. Don't forget that a Dutch minister had asked me at that time not to mention that Joran is a European Dutch citizen. I won't say who this person is, but if by any chance I have to mention his name, I definitely will. We felt abandoned by the Netherlands when Aruba was so devastated by the case. I have told this to the Dutch premier Balkenende, state secretary Bijleveld (Kingdom Relations), and minister Hirsch-Ballin (Justice). But until now, everybody has remained quit and has let the world besmear Aruba's name. They abandoned us and let us suffer."

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days? In the case of Marlies van der Kouwe in Bonaire, police officers were taken off the case because they have failed. I challenge Van der Straten and Paul van der Sloot to come up with clarifications, so that Aruba's name can be cleared from this mess (porkeria).




 



it could be Hirsch Ballin.
that would be interesting because the relation he has with Rudy and Hendrik Croes is interesting.
goes back to the IRT-affair. i posted a lot about this a few months ago.
Hirsch Ballin had to resign as justice minister over this. but currently he is justice minister again.

but... from 2005-2006 he wasn't justice minister. then justice minister was Piet Hein Donner. same political party though.
it also could be Johan Remkes. he was minster of Home Affairs (incl. Police) until 2007.
Remkes accused Aruba of blackmailing in a parlement debate recently.

or Rudy Croes is just making things up. he hates anything Dutch.
no doubt this includes Jan van der Straten, Paul van der Sloot, Hans Mos and any Dutch minister.
he said he wanted to rip apart his Dutch passport.

also this week the MEP started their 2009 political election campaign.
then this Round Table Conference 15th december Aruba wants to blackmail by threatening to derail it.

i hope a Dutch of American news crew goes to interview him soon.
this month is a excellent time for that. i bet Rudy is right now at a stage to spill more beans.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 02:49:47 PM

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?


I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet



Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?


I don't think any of them including Uncle Jan thinks for a second that there would be actual jail terms involved no matter of what they are accused.

Note we have not seen so much as an interrogation thus far from all of this.  For that matter, he could just leave beyond their reach to somewhere there is not jurisdiction, lol.

I don't believe for one moment any of them including Uncle Jan actually fear spending a night behind bars following a conviction even.

jmo


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:50:13 PM
Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them  to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

Rudy, you can make it happen if you want it to happen.  The FBI is a phone call away.  They are ready, willing and able to be a part of an investigative team on Aruba.  They need your invitation.  They needed your invitation 3 1/2 years ago, too.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 02:51:38 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.





AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.
No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.






Am I incorrect, or was this email dated almost three months after the contents were photographed?  Three months later, Beth and PI were finally getting clarifications about the denim in the cage?

I think that I could undertsand all of this better if this was an official law enforcement investigation where the evidence had to be held close to the vest to benefit a public prosecuter.  This was an independent search with millions of Americans cheering them on.  As PI put it, why did the game have to be fixed?   ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 02:53:46 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.





AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.
No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.





I thought Kermit said that she was the one who finally sent the photographs to Beth, because Kyle didn't do it???  ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 02:54:43 PM
Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them  to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.



The Police union, which was already threatening to strike when Natalee disappeared, are the ones who put vd Straten back in charge and say they will NEVER cooperate with any investigation of ALE.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 02:55:39 PM
I posted article from mid June by head of police union yesterday.  Apparently no one bothered to read it so guess posting it again would also be waste of time.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 02:55:39 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.


Thank you AZLady.

I honestly believe that Kyle was a pawn in the discovery and distruction of evidence by the Arubans as well as a trader within his midst on the Persistence.

Kyle's posts imply he was very naive about the joint search effort that included those within the Aruban administration whose objective was not justice for Natalee Holloway.  A few on this forum tried to warn him but to no avail.  In his opinion ... the Arubans and the Persistence's goals to further justice for an American citizen did not conflict.

However ... Kyle's emails to Kermit do indicate that he did eventually clue in.  Kyle did submit to the FBI five of the images of the cage that were not turned over to the ALE but ... withheld others.  Kermit claimed it was Kyle's initial intention to turn these images over Beth but ... then he had a change of heart and ... began negotiating with the networks.

Rather than Kyle sharing in emails to Kermit regarding his concerns in respect to the chain of custody of the evidence and ... the ROV images that the ALE did not have the opportunity to destroyed ... he should have been shared instead with Beth.  Case Close!

It is my contention that the search effort of Persistence was compromised the minute the Arubans were included in the effort without any official ******* from the United States administration on board.

Janet

+++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #715 1/25 -
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2008, 12:38:25 PM »


Thought you all may find this interesting if you're willing to accept it-

To date, the Aruban police and dive team has been a tremendous help.  They've honestly done a great job. Over the last month we've established a very good working relationship based on openness and trust.  Most of the relationship success was due to getting the media out of the way and working together shoulder to shoulder over time.  We've helped each other however and whenever we can.  They've treated us with decency and respect and we have treated them as friends and allies, which they are. Most of the police and divers are new since this case started and both eager and careful to do things right.  I wish we had a month ahead of the project just to establish the relationships and trust. I know many of you would likely doubt this view, but it's based on the experiences in the field of the entire search team. I too was extremely worried, paranoid, and suspecting in the beginning.  Now, it's clear we're all working towards a common goal.   

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2539.msg332457;topicseen#msg332457


ocean exploration (Kyle)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857


private eye (Beth Holloway's Brother)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »


If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245
 



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Why would Jossy say the Dutch Minister of Justice Hans Ballin was the witness who saw Joran the night Natalee disappeared?

I am totally lost on that one as well as the cage.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 02:57:58 PM
Well, we know the family was told after the Jan 7 dive that the cage was not related to Natalee.  Then, sometime between then and March 20 Kyle communicated his concerns about a coverup to to PI who passed that to Beth.  People have legitimately questioned why Kyle waited two months to communicate his concerns, and then why he contacted PI who contacted Beth instead of going directly to the family and/or FBI.  I don't know why, but I admit there may have been reasons.  At least this is my understanding now.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:00:25 PM
So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.





AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.
No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.





I thought Kermit said that she was the one who finally sent the photographs to Beth, because Kyle didn't do it???  ::MonkeyConfused::

According to PI, Kyle "communicated" his concerns to him and he passed that to Beth.  PI says nothing about photographs.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 03:02:02 PM
You may recall that it was Rudy Croes who replaced Uncle Jan with Dompig.  This is the response from the police union which leads me to believe that it is they who put Uncle Jan back in control:

Investigation of the Police Force is not necessary
by A.M. Digital

Posted: Jul 9, 2005 18:10 UTC

ORANJESTAD - The Natalee Holloway case certainly has Aruba upside down. There is a lot of pressure on the Government and on the investigating team.

According to Eric Zaandam, president of the Police union SPA, it is unfortunate that the case has not yet been solved, but more unfortunate are the negative expressions towards the police force by amongst others the Minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, and by Prime Minister Nelson Oduber.

“This is to regretted because, instead of receiving support our own Government dignitaries express themselves negatively about the police” said Zaandam. “Minister Rudy Croes even mentioned that he will bring in a police team from Curaçao to investigate their colleagues in Aruba.”

Eric Zaandam wishes for the Minister of Justice to understand once and for all that the investigating team is responsible and has to report to the Public Prosecutor, and this happens all the time. The investigating team has no obligation to report to anybody else, including the Minister of Justice. The Minister may well bring any team from abroad but the Aruba Police Force will not report to any team.

Those that wish to have information will have to knock on the door at the Public Prosecutor’s office and not interrogate any member of the investigating team, according to the union leader. Minister Croes should not try to play the police forces of other islands against the Aruba police force.

SPA learned of the intentions of the Aruba Minister of Justice when they were in Surinam to commemorate 100 years of existence of the Surinam police force. Here they advised their colleague from the Netherlands Antilles not to fall in the trap of the Aruba Minister. SPA also contacted the Netherlands Antillean Police Union on the matter.

If the Aruba Minister of Justice wants information, he will have to approach the Public Prosecutor, and not accuse any member of the investigating team of leaking information. The investigating team did not commit any crime and an investigation is not necessary.

“The Aruba Police have already cooperated with all the teams that wished to help with the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, except Scotland Yard” said Zaandam.

In police circles it is already agreed that they will not collaborate with any team that comes in to investigate the investigating team of the Natalee Holloway case.

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=72&num=16771


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 03:03:22 PM

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?


I don't think any of them including Uncle Jan thinks for a second that there would be actual jail terms involved no matter of what they are accused.

Note we have not seen so much as an interrogation thus far from all of this.  For that matter, he could just leave beyond their reach to somewhere there is not jurisdiction, lol.

I don't believe for one moment any of them including Uncle Jan actually fear spending a night behind bars following a conviction even.

jmo



If this were some kind of set-up where Jan would take the fall but not go to prison that would only create a much larger backlash against Aruba. To verify that corruption did take place on Aruba and then not do anything about it would be suicide. It makes no sense to me that they would bring this out into the open on top of the whole sex slavery controversy.

This has got to be killing Aruba. If Rudy wanted to cover it up he would have kept his mouth shut. If he were concerned about the Aruban economy he would have kept his mouth shut. This leads me to believe there are other motives at work here.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 03:04:22 PM
I am so upset about all of these cage findings.  So many of us have given our time, hearts, and souls in an attempt to find justice for Natalee.  This cage just keeps growing and the web is just getting bigger.  It's not just ALE now, it's coming from within.  Is this just the tip of an iceburg?  Kermit just posted that there's more to come.  Where will it end?  I am personally just devastated by all of this.  Bring it on Kermit, there's no reason to hold it back at this point.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 03:04:42 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 03:08:12 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)


A pair of shoes and a skull.

Again I ask who were the experts who said that the remains in the trap belonged to Natalee?

Maybe they didn't and belonged instead to someone with a service cap.
We seem to know less with each passing day.  Oddly enough.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:08:14 PM
Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 03:08:30 PM
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50164.php

this is an interesting article. i hope it appears tomorrow in English.

it says on Tuesday there was a uncomfortable debate in the Kingdom cabinet about the location of the Common Court.
Rudy Croes wants this to be moved to Aruba.

Prime Minister Balkenende had to step in and had a teleconference with Oduber on Aruba.
but Oduber also said he wanted the Common Court in Aruba.

the Kingdom Cabinet even gave Aruba a ultimatum. Aruba had to back down before 12:00 Thursday.
but Aruba didn't.


also Rudy Croes is accusing the AVP (opposition party) of making deals with the CDA.
the CDA is the governing party of Balkenende, Hirsch Ballin, Bijleveld.

this explains to me why Rudy Croes made this statement yesterday, acussing a Dutch minister of racism.
and outing Jan van der Straten.

and very important bit is that the Dutch are contemplating to use Kingdom Law 14 on Aruba.
this is about legal certainty. in fact saying the justice system of Aruba is not working properly.
so of course the Dutch don't want that Common Court on Aruba.
(i am going to read what this Kingdom Law 14 exactly can do)

there is a lot going on behind the scenes. to be continued in the coming weeks before the Christmass recess.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 03:08:44 PM
Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them  to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.



The Police union, which was already threatening to strike when Natalee disappeared, are the ones who put vd Straten back in charge and say they will NEVER cooperate with any investigation of ALE.





IIRC both Rudy and Oduber tried to remove Van der Straten, Oduber at least expressed concern about him. Straten was removed for three days around the time Dompig made that "hold your breath for 24 hours" remark, about the same time Joran was leading them to the body, and a day or so later Van der Straten was reinstated. This was around June 10-12 I think. That alone is suspicious in itself. They found her, then they didn't find her.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 03:10:18 PM
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50164.php

this is an interesting article. i hope it appears tomorrow in English.

it says on Tuesday there was a uncomfortable debate in the Kingdom cabinet about the location of the Common Court.
Rudy Croes wants this to be moved to Aruba.

Prime Minister Balkenende had to step in and had a teleconference with Oduber on Aruba.
but Oduber also said he wanted the Common Court in Aruba.

the Kingdom Cabinet even gave Aruba a ultimatum. Aruba had to back down before 12:00 Thursday.
but Aruba didn't.


also Rudy Croes is accusing the AVP (opposition party) of making deals with the CDA.
the CDA is the governing party of Balkenende, Hirsch Ballin, Bijleveld.

this explains to me why Rudy Croes made this statement yesterday, acussing a Dutch minister of racism.
and outing Jan van der Straten.

and very important bit is that the Dutch are contemplating to use Kingdom Law 14 on Aruba.
this is about legal certainty. in fact saying the justice system of Aruba is not working properly.
so of course the Dutch don't want that Common Court on Aruba.
(i am going to read what this Kingdom Law 14 exactly can do)

there is a lot going on behind the scenes. to be continued in the coming weeks before the Christmass recess.


Thanks Caesu! I hope they keep talking, this is getting very interesting.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 03:11:38 PM
Jan van der straaten will get another chance. All he has to leverage now is the truth, it has value to him.

I would be okay with  him exchanging that truth with leniency. The shame will be enough punishment.

But he will bring down the van der sloots and Dennis Jacobs and Karin Janssen. I don't believe van der straaten's crime started until he got a call from Paulus.

I would trade jail time for Jan in exchange for the truth. How did Natalee die Jan? And what did Paulus say when he called you?

Over.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 03:12:33 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)




Great photography work, CBB!!!  If we could prove that the white shoe with blue stripes is the same shoe that Urine was wearing when seen by the witness, we could prove a cover up and we could very likely send Urine to jail.  Sadly, that evidence disappeared on January 7th under the watch of the Americans for whom we were cheering.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:12:51 PM
You may recall that it was Rudy Croes who replaced Uncle Jan with Dompig.  This is the response from the police union which leads me to believe that it is they who put Uncle Jan back in control:

Investigation of the Police Force is not necessary
by A.M. Digital

Posted: Jul 9, 2005 18:10 UTC

ORANJESTAD - The Natalee Holloway case certainly has Aruba upside down. There is a lot of pressure on the Government and on the investigating team.

According to Eric Zaandam, president of the Police union SPA, it is unfortunate that the case has not yet been solved, but more unfortunate are the negative expressions towards the police force by amongst others the Minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, and by Prime Minister Nelson Oduber.

“This is to regretted because, instead of receiving support our own Government dignitaries express themselves negatively about the police” said Zaandam. “Minister Rudy Croes even mentioned that he will bring in a police team from Curaçao to investigate their colleagues in Aruba.”

Eric Zaandam wishes for the Minister of Justice to understand once and for all that the investigating team is responsible and has to report to the Public Prosecutor, and this happens all the time. The investigating team has no obligation to report to anybody else, including the Minister of Justice. The Minister may well bring any team from abroad but the Aruba Police Force will not report to any team.

Those that wish to have information will have to knock on the door at the Public Prosecutor’s office and not interrogate any member of the investigating team, according to the union leader. Minister Croes should not try to play the police forces of other islands against the Aruba police force.

SPA learned of the intentions of the Aruba Minister of Justice when they were in Surinam to commemorate 100 years of existence of the Surinam police force. Here they advised their colleague from the Netherlands Antilles not to fall in the trap of the Aruba Minister. SPA also contacted the Netherlands Antillean Police Union on the matter.

If the Aruba Minister of Justice wants information, he will have to approach the Public Prosecutor, and not accuse any member of the investigating team of leaking information. The investigating team did not commit any crime and an investigation is not necessary.

“The Aruba Police have already cooperated with all the teams that wished to help with the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, except Scotland Yard” said Zaandam.

In police circles it is already agreed that they will not collaborate with any team that comes in to investigate the investigating team of the Natalee Holloway case.

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=72&num=16771

Ah, yes.  And remember when Arlene tried to explain to us the intricacies of the separate government entities?  According to her, the Minister of Justice could not tell the police chief or his men what to do and despite his title as Minister of Justice, he had to request information from the Prosecutor who didn't always cooperate with him.  They were described as three separate entities that defended their independence from each other and worked as often against each other as together.  I remember I found this very odd indeed.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 03:14:01 PM
Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them  to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a recommendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.



The Police union, which was already threatening to strike when Natalee disappeared, are the ones who put vd Straten back in charge and say they will NEVER cooperate with any investigation of ALE.





IIRC both Rudy and Oduber tried to remove Van der Straten, Oduber at least expressed concern about him. Straten was removed for three days around the time Dompig made that "hold your breath for 24 hours" remark, about the same time Joran was leading them to the body, and a day or so later Van der Straten was reinstated. This was around June 10-12 I think. That alone is suspicious in itself. They found her, then they didn't find her.


Exactly!  This is what I keep squawking about! 

For the brief time Dompig was in charge, there was a confession and we were being led to the body.

Then poof!  Dompig out and Uncle Jan back in and nothing!

Who put Uncle Jan back in?  I think the police union which is the AVP party supporters.

And do recall that Jossy has supported vd Straten as well in the past along with Karin Jansen whom he named woman of the year for some unknown reason.  He was convinced they were trying to do the right thing.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 05, 2008, 03:15:10 PM
I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 03:15:33 PM
You may recall that it was Rudy Croes who replaced Uncle Jan with Dompig.  This is the response from the police union which leads me to believe that it is they who put Uncle Jan back in control:

Investigation of the Police Force is not necessary
by A.M. Digital

Posted: Jul 9, 2005 18:10 UTC

ORANJESTAD - The Natalee Holloway case certainly has Aruba upside down. There is a lot of pressure on the Government and on the investigating team.

According to Eric Zaandam, president of the Police union SPA, it is unfortunate that the case has not yet been solved, but more unfortunate are the negative expressions towards the police force by amongst others the Minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, and by Prime Minister Nelson Oduber.

“This is to regretted because, instead of receiving support our own Government dignitaries express themselves negatively about the police” said Zaandam. “Minister Rudy Croes even mentioned that he will bring in a police team from Curaçao to investigate their colleagues in Aruba.”

Eric Zaandam wishes for the Minister of Justice to understand once and for all that the investigating team is responsible and has to report to the Public Prosecutor, and this happens all the time. The investigating team has no obligation to report to anybody else, including the Minister of Justice. The Minister may well bring any team from abroad but the Aruba Police Force will not report to any team.

Those that wish to have information will have to knock on the door at the Public Prosecutor’s office and not interrogate any member of the investigating team, according to the union leader. Minister Croes should not try to play the police forces of other islands against the Aruba police force.

SPA learned of the intentions of the Aruba Minister of Justice when they were in Surinam to commemorate 100 years of existence of the Surinam police force. Here they advised their colleague from the Netherlands Antilles not to fall in the trap of the Aruba Minister. SPA also contacted the Netherlands Antillean Police Union on the matter.

If the Aruba Minister of Justice wants information, he will have to approach the Public Prosecutor, and not accuse any member of the investigating team of leaking information. The investigating team did not commit any crime and an investigation is not necessary.

“The Aruba Police have already cooperated with all the teams that wished to help with the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, except Scotland Yard” said Zaandam.

In police circles it is already agreed that they will not collaborate with any team that comes in to investigate the investigating team of the Natalee Holloway case.

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=72&num=16771

Anna - refresh my memory.  Stanley Zandaam is the one who has written the book and also the one who came out and said Natalee's body may have been found early in the case?  Do I have my Zandaam's mixed up or correct?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ala_gunslinger on December 05, 2008, 03:19:22 PM
What has changed?

Hey ya'll.

Gun


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 03:19:37 PM

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?


I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet



Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?


 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Dayhiker ... it will never happened.  I contend the consequences have already been negotiated and ... jail time is not on the table.

Tamikosmom had a vision.  It is getting clearer.  Now I see it!!

From a legal perspective Jan van der Straaten pleads "not guilty" to a conflict of interest but ... will concedes that he did botched the investigation within the first ten day ... made the wrong decisions.  The judge will rule in his favor and ... he will walk.

Aruba will attempt to pacify Natalee's familly by apologizing for the incompentence of one of their own who prevented justice from prevailing and ... will assure the family that Jan van der Straaten will never again work in law enforcement again.

Jan van der Straaten with a fatten bank account fades from the Aruban scene.

Case Closed!


Dayhiker ... think about it.  Wrong decisions are made every day by LE that compromise investigations.  Heads may roll but ... there are no legal consequences.

Janet




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 03:20:49 PM

Ah, yes.  And remember when Arlene tried to explain to us the intricacies of the separate government entities?  According to her, the Minister of Justice could not tell the police chief or his men what to do and despite his title as Minister of Justice, he had to request information from the Prosecutor who didn't always cooperate with him.  They were described as three separate entities that defended their independence from each other and worked as often against each other as together.  I remember I found this very odd indeed.


Right!!!

It is the most confusing system I have ever encountered.

What's more, as I understand it, The OM, Prosecutor, Hans Mos in this case, does not just represent the victim.  He instead represents JUSTICE.  The victim is supposed to be represented by the LAW and the defendant by his attorney but the prosecutor is supposed to be a NEUTRAL party.

And totally at his discretion, he can chose to prosecute, or not, based on what he believes to be in the "best interest of the public welfare" instead of the letter of the law.

At least, this is how it has been explained to me in the past several times.

So the Prosecutor does not represent the victim at all but JUSTICE and is to remain a neutral party.

How confusing is that?????



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:22:27 PM
I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)
Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 03:24:24 PM
I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)
Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased. 

I was thinking Always meant Amy Bradley....


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:25:08 PM

Ah, yes.  And remember when Arlene tried to explain to us the intricacies of the separate government entities?  According to her, the Minister of Justice could not tell the police chief or his men what to do and despite his title as Minister of Justice, he had to request information from the Prosecutor who didn't always cooperate with him.  They were described as three separate entities that defended their independence from each other and worked as often against each other as together.  I remember I found this very odd indeed.


Right!!!

It is the most confusing system I have ever encountered.

What's more, as I understand it, The OM, Prosecutor, Hans Mos in this case, does not just represent the victim.  He instead represents JUSTICE.  The victim is supposed to be represented by the LAW and the defendant by his attorney but the prosecutor is supposed to be a NEUTRAL party.

And totally at his discretion, he can chose to prosecute, or not, based on what he believes to be in the "best interest of the public welfare" instead of the letter of the law.

At least, this is how it has been explained to me in the past several times.

So the Prosecutor does not represent the victim at all but JUSTICE and is to remain a neutral party.

How confusing is that?????



Yes.  From what I've read, the Prosecutor represents the good of the society.  He makes decisions on who and what to Prosecute based on what's good for the Aruban society.  Now that's a conundrum in itself.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:28:03 PM
I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)
Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased. 

I was thinking Always meant Amy Bradley....

Okay.   ::MonkeyConfused::  Now I am confused.  Every photo I've seen of Amy Bradley shows a young woman with dark hair.  The most recent I've read about Amy Bradley was that she was spotted more than once and is believed to be alive.  This is just a huge leap from one case to another than I'm befuddled.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 03:28:21 PM
Janet,

Why would van der straaten have  to cop to anything? He can say there isn't even a crime? No body, no crime, that's what that phrase is for.

By the theory he gets a slap on the wrist supposes that Aruba will admit in court that a crime actually occurred.

If he is ever brought in front of a judge, he will day Natalee who? What crime? She's a girl who disappeared.

Aruba has to tell us she is dead and how they know or what do we have?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 03:29:09 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 03:29:43 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)



This is going to be very graphic, but it is one reason why I think that the remains might not have been Natalee, but rather Jalitza or someone else.  Jalitza's body had been prepared for burial which means that she was likely embalmed with her body tissues chemically preserved.  Her body would have been able to be moved, in tact.  Natalee was murdered, possibly dismembered, and reportedly moved several times in the Aruban heat before a final disposal.  Her body would have deteriorated in several days to a point where she would have been difficult to move.  Her body tissue would have started to decay and liquefy.  As with Caylee Anthony, there was certainly insect damage from maggots and beetles.  Insects can devour a human body in just several days.  After just a day or two, it would have been very difficult to move Natalee onboard a boat and then deposit her on the floor of a fish cage unless she was in a closed container.  It would have been like carrying a huge bag of spaghetti.  Her skin would have fallen off with just a touch.  The odor would have been unbearable. It would have been too difficult to put Natalee in that cage unless it was done very shortly after she died.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:30:09 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet
No, it's not too late.  As long as images exist from that exploration, they can be analyzed.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:32:15 PM
Yes, time was of the essence.  The Gottenbos's boat was available and I do think the body was disposed of in the cage rather soon after her death. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 03:36:46 PM
I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)
Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased. 

I was thinking Always meant Amy Bradley....

Okay.   ::MonkeyConfused::  Now I am confused.  Every photo I've seen of Amy Bradley shows a young woman with dark hair.  The most recent I've read about Amy Bradley was that she was spotted more than once and is believed to be alive.  This is just a huge leap from one case to another than I'm befuddled.



Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 03:38:42 PM

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?


 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Dayhiker ... it will never happened.  I contend the consequences have already been negotiated and ... jail time is not on the table.

Tamikosmom had a vision.  It is getting clearer.  Now I see it!!

From a legal perspective Jan van der Straaten pleads "not guilty" to a conflict of interest but ... will concedes that he did botched the investigation within the first ten day ... made the wrong decisions.  The judge will rule in his favor and ... he will walk.

Aruba will attempt to pacify Natalee's familly by apologizing for the incompentence of one of their own who prevented justice from prevailing and ... will assure the family that Jan van der Straaten will never again work in law enforcement again.

Jan van der Straaten with a fatten bank account fades from the Aruban scene.

Case Closed!


Dayhiker ... think about it.  Wrong decisions are made every day by LE that compromise investigations.  Heads may roll but ... there are no legal consequences.

Janet




Janet, I don't disagree that could happen, but why even bring it up? They were ready to close the case, why create a fiasco? That makes zero sense to me.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:38:56 PM
Here's a blast from the past.  Anyone else remember this? 

http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?t=20296&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
bakablGuest Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: Natalee Holloway Questions to be asked of the Two Men

bakabl wrote:Frist Im vary sorry to hear of the vary sad case of Natalee Holloway in such a wonderful place like Aruba but it could happen anywere at any time. There are a few questions that need to be asked of the two men that the FBI are questioning - 1st ask them about the drink that was given to Natalee around 3:15am Aruba Time the morring Natalee never retyrn to her hotel and ask them about what the drug was in the drink that Natalee drunk without her knowing. 2nd ask them about the boat and the 2-1/2 mile trip they took.

They should break dowm and tell the truth about are were Natalee can be found.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 03:41:20 PM
Anna - refresh my memory.  Stanley Zandaam is the one who has written the book and also the one who came out and said Natalee's body may have been found early in the case?  Do I have my Zandaam's mixed up or correct?


Yes, that's correct, Klaas.  Stanley was the one who seemed to know that Natalee's remains were found almost immediately.

Eric is the one who is president of the police union or was at the time this article was written.

Two very different points of view.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 03:41:41 PM
Janet,

Why would van der straaten have  to cop to anything? He can say there isn't even a crime? No body, no crime, that's what that phrase is for.

By the theory he gets a slap on the wrist supposes that Aruba will admit in court that a crime actually occurred.

If he is ever brought in front of a judge, he will day Natalee who? What crime? She's a girl who disappeared.

Aruba has to tell us she is dead and how they know or what do we have?



Has Rudy told us WHAT Jan was covering up yet, Frank? Was it rape and murder, was it sex slavery, was it the elders having a gangbang? Surely he knows. ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MuffyBee on December 05, 2008, 03:42:12 PM
What has changed?

Hey ya'll.

Gun

Hey gunslinger  :smt006



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 03:43:12 PM
Janet,

Why would van der straaten have  to cop to anything? He can say there isn't even a crime? No body, no crime, that's what that phrase is for.

By the theory he gets a slap on the wrist supposes that Aruba will admit in court that a crime actually occurred.

If he is ever brought in front of a judge, he will day Natalee who? What crime? She's a girl who disappeared.

Aruba has to tell us she is dead and how they know or what do we have?

Aruba wants closure.  Keep it simple ... uncomplicated.  One person takes the fall for obstructing an investigation within the first ten day and ... allowing crucial evidence ... required for justice to prevail ... to be destroyed.  In other words ... too late to turn back the hands of time.

I believe the truth will never be revealed unless one person who has knowledge regarding the happenings of that fateful morning grows a conscience and ... reveals all to Natalee's family ... a family who has been denied closure by a corrupt Aruban investigation since May 30, 2005.

Janet

______

ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for December 1
updated 7:37 a.m. PT, Fri., Dec. 2, 2005


WOOD: ... The reason this case could still be solved is because there are so many people involved in Natalee's disappearance and in the disposal of her body. When somebody talks, they're going to all go down. This is like a house of cards.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 03:49:53 PM

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?


 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Dayhiker ... it will never happened.  I contend the consequences have already been negotiated and ... jail time is not on the table.

Tamikosmom had a vision.  It is getting clearer.  Now I see it!!

From a legal perspective Jan van der Straaten pleads "not guilty" to a conflict of interest but ... will concedes that he did botched the investigation within the first ten day ... made the wrong decisions.  The judge will rule in his favor and ... he will walk.

Aruba will attempt to pacify Natalee's family by apologizing for the incompetence of one of their own who prevented justice from prevailing and ... will assure the family that Jan van der Straaten will never again work in law enforcement again.

Jan van der Straaten with a fatten bank account fades from the Aruban scene.

Case Closed!


Dayhiker ... think about it.  Wrong decisions are made every day by LE that compromise investigations.  Heads may roll but ... there are no legal consequences.

Janet




Janet, I don't disagree that could happen, but why even bring it up? They were ready to close the case, why create a fiasco? That makes zero sense to me.


To say THE DUTCH are the sole reason the Aruban judicial system doesn't work.  That's why he is now saying he was told to down play the fact that Joran is European and not native Aruban as was portrayed in the re-enactment.

He is saying that if not for the DUTCH, Aruban justice would work just fine and therefore the Caribbean Court of Justice should be located in Aruba just as he and Oduber have wanted for some time.

You yourself, Dayhiker, has alluded to this many times.  Rudy agrees and says if not for the Dutch, the Aruban system would be the model for the region, etc.

For big meeting Dec 15 concerning location of the larger Court of Justice for the region.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 03:51:41 PM
One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?

The hotel lobby is the video I am referring to. thank you
The way I remember it, Beth said that was NOT Natalee in the Hotel lobby Video.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 03:51:47 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).





Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 03:53:18 PM
Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.
I agree wholeheartedly - but it isn't like PI does not have "family" connections.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:54:01 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).




And from what I gather, the FBI did not receive a blue denim sample to test.  They received a sample of a fabric similar to Natalee's blouse, correct?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 03:54:07 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).





Hi Kermit! Where was the blue denim supposed to be in the cage? I'm coloring!  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:54:49 PM
Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.
I agree wholeheartedly - but it isn't like PI does not have "family" connections.
True.  As Beth's brother, PI is a family connection, a close connection.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 03:54:53 PM
Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.
I agree wholeheartedly - but it isn't like PI does not have "family" connections.

yes he does and I will testify to the fact that he saw the photos.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 03:56:19 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).





Having issues regarding Dives,the sequence of dives,as well as who dove and at what times??Were there dives we are unaware of?May be redundant questions but your always able to put it together nicely!TIA..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 03:56:41 PM
Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.
I agree wholeheartedly - but it isn't like PI does not have "family" connections.

yes he does and I will testify to the fact that he saw the photos.

Kermit, by "he" I assume you mean Beth's brother (PI).  Correct?  Just clarifying.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 03:56:49 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).




And from what I gather, the FBI did not receive a blue denim sample to test.  They received a sample of a fabric similar to Natalee's blouse, correct?




Correct, and reportedly it took Richardson a long time to send the fabric to Quantico for analysis.  I'm sorry, I don't have a link to give you for that.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 03:56:52 PM

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?


 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Dayhiker ... it will never happened.  I contend the consequences have already been negotiated and ... jail time is not on the table.

Tamikosmom had a vision.  It is getting clearer.  Now I see it!!

From a legal perspective Jan van der Straaten pleads "not guilty" to a conflict of interest but ... will concedes that he did botched the investigation within the first ten day ... made the wrong decisions.  The judge will rule in his favor and ... he will walk.

Aruba will attempt to pacify Natalee's familly by apologizing for the incompentence of one of their own who prevented justice from prevailing and ... will assure the family that Jan van der Straaten will never again work in law enforcement again.

Jan van der Straaten with a fatten bank account fades from the Aruban scene.

Case Closed!


Dayhiker ... think about it.  Wrong decisions are made every day by LE that compromise investigations.  Heads may roll but ... there are no legal consequences.

Janet




Janet, I don't disagree that could happen, but why even bring it up? They were ready to close the case, why create a fiasco? That makes zero sense to me.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

IMO

Apparently ... when Aruba closes the Natalee Holloway case ... the FBI on the request of the family is allowed access to all the case files ... case files which will reveal a coverup from the getgo.

However ... in anticipation ... prior to closing the case ... Aruba is now conceding that one of their own was responsible for preventing justice from prevailing in the first ten days ... ten days when all crucial evidence was destroyed.

The plan is perfect!!!

Janet

+++++++

Growing Frustration in Aruba
Wednesday, July 06, 2005


GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY: Well, the way the system works down here, when the case is closed, we will have all that information, and we can release it to the world.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161705,00.html


DANA PRETZER
July 2, 2006 - Part 1
July 8, 2006 - Part 2


ART WOOD: The family of Natalee needs to put pressure on the US attorney in Birmingham to push the FBI to conduct an investigation after ALE close the case. We have a treaty that allows the FBI to pursue a violation of civil rights of an American citizen there.


'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for December 1
updated 7:37 a.m. PT, Fri., Dec. 2, 2005

 
ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: ... There's a lot that Americans can do through the State Department. I want to remind everybody that Natalee Holloway was a U.S. citizen. Once the Aruban authorities are done investigating this case, the FBI can still conduct an investigation ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 03:58:31 PM
It can't end with van der straaten. How the search warrant was not granted for the van der sloot residence widens the loyalty to all things Dutch.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 03:59:55 PM
Kermit, If you are still here, who said the remains or DNA was Natalee?  I understand the FBI said the fabric they received was not her blouse but who said the remains were her?

And worse yet, I thought they compared the denim to her blouse and said THAT was not a match.

I have a headache from this!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:00:04 PM
Janet, so closing the case and implicating van der Stratten in coverup will explain the lack of any evidence for the FBI to analyze.  All the evidence is destroyed and van der Stratten takes the blame.  He says, so sorry, but my friend and all that--you understand, and then goes on with his life.   That's crap.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 04:01:55 PM
IMO

Apparently ... when Aruba closes the Natalee Holloway case ... the FBI on the request of the family is allowed access to all the case files ... case files which will reveal a coverup from the getgo.
However ... in anticipation ... prior to closing the case ... Aruba is now conceding that one of their own was responsible for preventing justice from prevailing in the first ten days ... ten days when all crucial evidence was destroyed.

The plan is perfect!!!

Janet




Janet - what if all of the information and evidence was never recorded in the case files.  Didn't one of the H/Ts see a ripped up statement on the desk?  Those photographs are the only solid evidence that we have.

+++++++


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:02:25 PM
It can't end with van der straaten. How the search warrant was not granted for the van der sloot residence widens the loyalty to all things Dutch.
This is turning into an Aruban-Dutch finger pointing contest.  The Arubans, like Rudy Croes, have wanted to oust the Dutch from Aruba for a long time.  They want them to keep sending money, but don't want them on their island or in their affairs.  Hmm...kind of like having your cake and eating it too.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 04:02:47 PM
It can't end with van der straaten. How the search warrant was not granted for the van der sloot residence widens the loyalty to all things Dutch.


Oh, no, Bob Wit has already gone on record saying ALE only asked to search Joran's apartment, not the whole complex.

And I suspect Uncle Jan will just say he only covered up abuse of a corpse, etc.  What's the punishment for that?  Ten hours community service?  Some guy in Netherlands got community service for rape so surely Uncle Jan can get it for obstructing a misdemeanor


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:03:57 PM
IMO

Apparently ... when Aruba closes the Natalee Holloway case ... the FBI on the request of the family is allowed access to all the case files ... case files which will reveal a coverup from the getgo.
However ... in anticipation ... prior to closing the case ... Aruba is now conceding that one of their own was responsible for preventing justice from prevailing in the first ten days ... ten days when all crucial evidence was destroyed.

The plan is perfect!!!

Janet




Janet - what if all of the information and evidence was never recorded in the case files.  Didn't one of the H/Ts see a ripped up statement on the desk?  Those photographs are the only solid evidence that we have.

+++++++

There are no case files.  There is no evidence.  All was destroyed systematically.  The only thing left to investigate is the coverup--the corruption.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 04:04:03 PM
Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.
I agree wholeheartedly - but it isn't like PI does not have "family" connections.

yes he does and I will testify to the fact that he saw the photos.



Kermit - what makes you think that Natalee was in the cage.  At this point, I am doubtful, but I am certainly open to some information that could change my mind.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:05:44 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).





Hi Kermit! Where was the blue denim supposed to be in the cage? I'm coloring!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Let me say that is awesome work you just did on that photo.

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2284/2350003000_a19516d71e_o.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:05:47 PM
Kermit, you said "he" saw the photos.  Is "he" Beth's brother--PI?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 04:07:18 PM
Date: Feb 18 2008 - 11:07am

 

Translation - posted by Lazlo at RU
Bob Wit defends himself in Bon Dia.

(For sure translation faults, but on or about what it says is the following)

Ex Head Commissar Bob Wit defends his actions in the Holloway case.

-Willemstad- "I have acted correct procedure wise in the case of Natalee Holloway, The ex Head Commissaris in the affair, Bob Wit tells about the procedures that took place fast in the first days of the investigation. During one week, Mr Wit who's avenue is affiliated with the Court of Justice of the Caribbean, has functioned as a Head Commissar in the case here.

On Aruba the Chief of investigation in the time when Gerald Dompig was the Head Commissar, did not approve of the search of the house of the parents of Van Der Sloot as part of the investigation and had obstructed the investigation (?). The investigation of the Dutch crime investigator Peter R. de Vries, has came to the same conclusion. It was remarkable in the case that after the Dutch group of investigators had joined the case they were allowed to search the territory of the family. The impression was given also because it was the deal of a functionnaire who was learning to become Head, felt he had to protect the privacy of the family. Paul van der Sloot, father of Joran van der Sloot after having become a suspect in the case. ....... (no idea)

Mr Wit, had to decide in an instant about the search of where Joran's father lived, and made the decision to allow the search of the apartment of Joran van der Sloot and also in the two cars of the family.

At no moment they had (asked?) to search more then that. A Head Commisar cannot do otherwise, because the petition has to be substantial. Another word is by having allowed to search at other places that were not covered by the petition of the OM all evidence eventually obtained would be illegal. This is very significant since dealing with the case ourselves we had to work in a correct manner, Mr Wit says.

The ex Head Commissar also says by having dealt with the case himself the suspicions against Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers is strong.

I had concluded from the dossier there had been various contradictions in their declarations. But that is not enough to succeed in a conviction. In a case where no the remains are found in order to treat it as a crime you have to have additional material such as a witness who has seen it happen or traces of blood that for example can be tested for DNA, so the Magistrate tells.

For one thing is, the case itself, Mr Wit says that even after time has passed one can still prosecute the suspects. I have seen often in my work the instant good new information comes up that can throw a new light on a case that was unsolved, so Mr Witt is commenting. The Ministry Public in Aruba has announced this the week that the case here ....of a "crime" is 7 years for murder and 10 years for premeditated murder.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2587.840


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:08:44 PM
Kermit, If you are still here, who said the remains or DNA was Natalee?  I understand the FBI said the fabric they received was not her blouse but who said the remains were her?

And worse yet, I thought they compared the denim to her blouse and said THAT was not a match.

I have a headache from this!

I know it is confusing.

I just posted the photo that was done by Kyle with measurements and his expertise in underwater ROV videos who took the screenshot and also did the overlay of the photo from Natalee on the beach. It matches where the denim skirt was found. In his own words.

The material sent to the fbi was sent by Aruba. It did not match. NOTHING was ever said about the blue denim material to my knowledge being tested.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:09:08 PM
Kermit, you said "he" saw the photos.  Is "he" Beth's brother--PI?
Yes he is.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:09:51 PM

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”


Kermit, the above bolded words seem to contradict Kyle's other postings that say only the Aruban's sampled the contents.  When Kyle says "we" he seems inclusive of the American searchers.  This is contradictory.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:12:17 PM
So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:12:17 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).




And from what I gather, the FBI did not receive a blue denim sample to test.  They received a sample of a fabric similar to Natalee's blouse, correct?




Correct, and reportedly it took Richardson a long time to send the fabric to Quantico for analysis.  I'm sorry, I don't have a link to give you for that.

Yes it was a sample and then MOS read from the FBI report, if memory serves me verbatim. Which did not say anything about the other things retrieved from the cage by Aruba divers nor the denim looking material.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 04:13:44 PM
So what experts said the remains WERE Natalee since the FBI said no match on the fabric?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 04:14:52 PM
Kermit - I have understood that you gave the photographs of the cage contents to Beth, after Kyle chose not to.  Obviously you have had discussions about the cage contents with Beth and/or the other H/Ts.  Why is Jug so certain that the remains in the cage were not Natalee.  Did they have froensic evaluations done on anything from the cage?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:15:06 PM
So, Natalee's body may have been found in that cage and identified last spring.  However, if so, the family has not announced this for their own reasons.  Perhaps they are convinced that by exposing this coverup, justice will be broader and better served.  Does this seem likely?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 04:17:39 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet
No, it's not too late.  As long as images exist from that exploration, they can be analyzed.

I pray that Kyle has had another change of heart and ... has done what he inititially intended to do ... share ALL the ROV images with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family ... share all his observations and concerns while he was a crew member of the Persistence with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family.

It should be all about justice for Natalee Holloway.  It is all about closure for Natalee Holloways family.  Nothing else!

Janet




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:18:13 PM
By allowing the Arubans to coverup the discovery of Natalee's body in the cage, the net is drawn even tighter around the current and present administration in Aruba, including Han Mos and Richardson and others who were not present at the beginning of the coverup but have perpetuated it to this day.  I'm beginning to see the light, I think.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 04:18:25 PM
From Fox News Big Story October 9th, 2005 comes a rather disturbing revelation that should make everyone sit up, take notice and scratch their collective heads. There has been much debate by many as to whether Beth Twitty had been telling the truth or embellishing it as per her statement, “Forensics were never done at the primary residence of the Van der Sloot home“. Many questioned her motives as to this statement and wondered how this could be when the main stream media had reported that items were seized from the home.....

Now last night some four and a half months later after the disappearance of Natalee Holloway we learn from Deputy Police Chief, Dompig, in Aruba in charge of the investigation, that the Van der Sloot home was never searched. The primary home of the suspect, Joran Van der Sloot was never searched. Even after Paul Van der Sloot was arrested as a suspect the home was not searched.
    Reporter: Okay, let me ask you about the search of Joran Van der Sloot house. Apparently this kid lived in an apartment that was connected to or sort of adjacent to his parents house.

    Dompig: That is correct

    Reporter: And the police only searched his apartment, deputy chief?

    Dompig: That is correct. The fact is that we as a law enforcement agency always try to get the maximum. Meaning that we want to search as much places as possible. We were not granted by the judge a search warrant for the complete house, we only received the warrant for the apartment.

    Reporter: But what about after Paul Van der Sloot was arrested, couldn’t you get a warrant to search the house then?

    Dompig: It was also denied, we were a bit disappointed with that. The judge was coming from another island I must point out. He said we didn’t make a good enough case to get a warrant....

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/10/10/beth-twitty-credibility-1-nay-sayers-0/

Then this:

Translation - posted by Lazlo at RU
December 29, 2007

Bob Wit defends himself in Bon Dia

<snipped>

Mr Wit, had to decide in an instant about the search of where Joran's father lived, and made the decision to allow the search of the apartment of Joran van der Sloot and also in the two cars of the family.

At no moment they had (asked?) to search more then that. A Head Commisar cannot do otherwise, because the petition has to be substantial. Another word is by having allowed to search at other places that were not covered by the petition of the OM all evidence eventually obtained would be illegal. This is very significant since dealing with the case ourselves we had to work in a correct manner, Mr Wit says.


Hmmm....somebody's lying....and it's not Beth.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:20:12 PM
So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.










Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 04:20:53 PM
Kermit, If you are still here, who said the remains or DNA was Natalee?  I understand the FBI said the fabric they received was not her blouse but who said the remains were her?

And worse yet, I thought they compared the denim to her blouse and said THAT was not a match.

I have a headache from this!

I know it is confusing.

I just posted the photo that was done by Kyle with measurements and his expertise in underwater ROV videos who took the screenshot and also did the overlay of the photo from Natalee on the beach. It matches where the denim skirt was found. In his own words.

The material sent to the fbi was sent by Aruba. It did not match. NOTHING was ever said about the blue denim material to my knowledge being tested.


Well of course it didn't match. The material sent to the FBI was sent by Aruba.
They sent them something else.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:22:28 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet
No, it's not too late.  As long as images exist from that exploration, they can be analyzed.

I pray that Kyle has had another change of heart and ... has done what he inititially intended to do ... share ALL the ROV images with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family ... share all his observations and concerns while he was a crew member of the Persistence with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family.

It should be all about justice for Natalee Holloway.  It is all about closure for Natalee Holloways family.  Nothing else!

Janet




He did not have a change of heart and has continued to threaten me for posting at SM.





Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:22:50 PM
Kermit, If you are still here, who said the remains or DNA was Natalee?  I understand the FBI said the fabric they received was not her blouse but who said the remains were her?

And worse yet, I thought they compared the denim to her blouse and said THAT was not a match.

I have a headache from this!

I know it is confusing.

I just posted the photo that was done by Kyle with measurements and his expertise in underwater ROV videos who took the screenshot and also did the overlay of the photo from Natalee on the beach. It matches where the denim skirt was found. In his own words.

The material sent to the fbi was sent by Aruba. It did not match. NOTHING was ever said about the blue denim material to my knowledge being tested.


Well of course it didn't match. The material sent to the FBI was sent by Aruba.
They sent them something else.


That is what I think too Blonde.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: BTgirl on December 05, 2008, 04:23:11 PM
Kermit, If you are still here, who said the remains or DNA was Natalee?  I understand the FBI said the fabric they received was not her blouse but who said the remains were her?

And worse yet, I thought they compared the denim to her blouse and said THAT was not a match.

I have a headache from this!

I know it is confusing.

I just posted the photo that was done by Kyle with measurements and his expertise in underwater ROV videos who took the screenshot and also did the overlay of the photo from Natalee on the beach. It matches where the denim skirt was found. In his own words.

The material sent to the fbi was sent by Aruba. It did not match. NOTHING was ever said about the blue denim material to my knowledge being tested.


Well of course it didn't match. The material sent to the FBI was sent by Aruba.
They sent them something else.


Having fabric NOT be matching fabric would be easy for a place that can magically turn blood into chocolate.  ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 04:26:42 PM
For the record:

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:24 PM
Subject: Cloth found in crab trap not a match with sample of blouse Holloway, according to FBI Laboratory.


Press release

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

To All media
From The Public Prosecutor's Office
Date February 26, 2007

Pages 1

Cloth found in crab trap not a match with sample of blouse Holloway, according to FBI Laboratory.

The Prosecutors' Office of Aruba has received the results of the comparison tests done by the FBI Laboratory in the United States of America on clothing, cloth or a textile of some type recovered in January 2008 by an Aruban dive team inside a crab trap in about 90 feet of water, off the coast of Aruba. The Aruban dive team was directed to the crab trap by the crew of the vessel "Persistence" that is conducting a sea search looking for the body of Natalee Holloway. The Persistence is searching for a crab trap based on the story that the body of Natalee Holloway was disposed of and placed in a similar device.

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway's blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors' Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.


FBI Says Fabrics Found in Aruban Crab Trap Not From Holloway
Tuesday, February 26, 2008

ORANJESTAD, Aruba - An FBI analysis of fabric collected from a crab trap off Aruba showed the material did not match clothing worn by missing American Natalee Holloway, prosecutors said Tuesday.

The fabric was recovered in January by divers in about 90 feet of water as they searched for the body of the missing woman, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said in a statement.

Click here for photos from the case.

The FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, who was 18 when she disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Dutch Caribbean island in May 2005. The results "showed that the two materials were not a match," the statement said.

Special Agent Ann Todd, a spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, Va., said the lab could not comment on the case.

Holloway, of Mountain Brook, Ala., was last seen leaving a bar in the Aruban capital of Oranjestad with a Dutch college student and two Surinamese brothers. Extensive searches have found no trace of her.

Earlier this month, judges rejected an attempt to arrest the Dutch student, Joran Van der Sloot, for a third time in her disappearance. He was released due to insufficient evidence the first two times he was arrested.

Aruban prosecutors had sought to detain him based on hidden-camera recordings captured by a Dutch TV crime show. In the video, Van der Sloot said Holloway collapsed on the beach after they left the bar and he called a friend to dump her body at sea.

Van der Sloot has said he was lying when he made those statement and insists he had no involvement in her death.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332848,00.html


Fabric found in Aruban crab trap doesn't match Holloway's clothing
Posted by Birmingham News February 26, 2008 3:26 PM

Fabric found in a crab trap off the Aruban coast doesn't match a blouse worn by Natalee Holloway when she disappeared, officials said today.

The fabric was recovered by a dive crew last month and tested by the FBI, which was holding fabric samples matching Holloway's top, according to a release from the Aruban prosecutor's office.

Holloway, then 18, disappeared in May of 2005


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:27:24 PM
Kermit - I have understood that you gave the photographs of the cage contents to Beth, after Kyle chose not to.  Obviously you have had discussions about the cage contents with Beth and/or the other H/Ts.  Why is Jug so certain that the remains in the cage were not Natalee.  Did they have froensic evaluations done on anything from the cage?

I can only assume because I am not privy to the conversation Jug is having with Idstlou.
I think he is only getting the information that she tells him and I can tell from her posts that she is either confused it on purpose or actually is confused or she might be wanting everyone to focus on anything but that cage. I don't know. I'm just telling the truth of what I know to be.

To me, the photos speak for themselves. How many skeletons in a fish trap fit the measurements of someone missing and a blue denim material found and blue tarp etc.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 04:28:08 PM
Kermit, If you are still here, who said the remains or DNA was Natalee?  I understand the FBI said the fabric they received was not her blouse but who said the remains were her?

And worse yet, I thought they compared the denim to her blouse and said THAT was not a match.

I have a headache from this!

I know it is confusing.

I just posted the photo that was done by Kyle with measurements and his expertise in underwater ROV videos who took the screenshot and also did the overlay of the photo from Natalee on the beach. It matches where the denim skirt was found. In his own words.

The material sent to the fbi was sent by Aruba. It did not match. NOTHING was ever said about the blue denim material to my knowledge being tested.


Well of course it didn't match. The material sent to the FBI was sent by Aruba.
They sent them something else.


Having fabric NOT be matching fabric would be easy for a place that can magically turn blood into chocolate.  ::MonkeyNoNo::

I was thinking that would be a great title: Aruba turned blood into chocolate.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 04:28:13 PM

private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).


And from what I gather, the FBI did not receive a blue denim sample to test.  They received a sample of a fabric similar to Natalee's blouse, correct?


Correct, and reportedly it took Richardson a long time to send the fabric to Quantico for analysis.  I'm sorry, I don't have a link to give you for that.

Obviously ... the ALE did not send the FBI any "denim" to analyze!!  For the purpose of comparing ... it is so important that the FBI must have ALL the ROV images that Kyle can provide.

Janet

++++++++++

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #635 on: November 25, 2008, 10:06:58 PM »


from Kyle: "It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557906;topicseen#msg557906


Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

To All media
From The Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 26, 2008

Pages 1


The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 04:29:00 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet
No, it's not too late.  As long as images exist from that exploration, they can be analyzed.

I pray that Kyle has had another change of heart and ... has done what he inititially intended to do ... share ALL the ROV images with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family ... share all his observations and concerns while he was a crew member of the Persistence with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family.

It should be all about justice for Natalee Holloway.  It is all about closure for Natalee Holloways family.  Nothing else!

Janet




He did not have a change of heart and has continued to threaten me for posting at SM.





Are the authorities,as well as the families aware of the these threats??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 04:29:49 PM
One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?

The hotel lobby is the video I am referring to. thank you
The way I remember it, Beth said that was NOT Natalee in the Hotel lobby Video.

We all agree on that.. What I am wondering is if this is Jalitza in that video.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:32:12 PM
You know, I'm not going to be satisfied with van der Stratten's admission of a coverup.  Nope, that's just not enough.  I think everyone who was complicit in this depraved crime and coverup needs to go down.  Justice will not be served until they convict:
Joran
Kalpoe Brothers
PVDS
Karin Janssen
Dennis Jacobs
Roy Tromp
Gerald Dompig
Van der Straten
Mariane Croes
Dolph Richardson
Rudy Croes
Hans Mos

This list doesn't even include the flunkies in this whole mess like Arlene and Ruben and Julia and others who deliberately contributed to the coverup, not to mention the people like Guido and the Gottenbos boys, and it goes on.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 04:32:59 PM
So, Natalee's body may have been found in that cage and identified last spring.  However, if so, the family has not announced this for their own reasons.  Perhaps they are convinced that by exposing this coverup, justice will be broader and better served.  Does this seem likely?

I must have missed something.  AZLady ... what source implies that the family is aware that Natalee's remains were identified as being in the cage.

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 04:33:03 PM
So, is it the blue trio (lower left) that was the denim?

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-denim.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 04:35:17 PM
I continue to be very disturbed with what has occurred with the cage,as well as the behavior of Kyle(OE)..Why threaten someone for telling the TRUTH???Guess we'll have to see what Kermit reveals in due time...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 04:37:57 PM
You know, I'm not going to be satisfied with van der Stratten's admission of a coverup.  Nope, that's just not enough.  I think everyone who was complicit in this depraved crime and coverup needs to go down.  Justice will not be served until they convict:
Joran
Kalpoe Brothers
PVDS
Karin Janssen
Dennis Jacobs
Roy Tromp
Gerald Dompig
Van der Straten
Mariane Croes
Dolph Richardson
Rudy Croes
Hans Mos

This list doesn't even include the flunkies in this whole mess like Arlene and Ruben and Julia and others who deliberately contributed to the coverup, not to mention the people like Guido and the Gottenbos boys, and it goes on.


Plus the agents of disinfo at the Strategic Command Force for AHATA including Steve Cohen, etc.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ala_gunslinger on December 05, 2008, 04:38:23 PM
What has changed?

Hey ya'll.

Gun

Hey gunslinger  :smt006



Hey Muffy!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 04:38:43 PM
I have no idea what I think, so I'm just throwing this out based upon Joran's behavior, and for the moment, thinking Natalee's remains were in the cage.

Joran's shoe/shoes seemed to be a big issue to him from the get go. I don't doubt there was something with the shoes/shoes, that he feared.

What if Joran's show was purposefully placed in the cage with Natalee's remains as insurance to keep him quiet? If he told, and if she was found, then they also find the evidence needed to convict Joran.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 04:38:43 PM
Kermit - I have understood that you gave the photographs of the cage contents to Beth, after Kyle chose not to.  Obviously you have had discussions about the cage contents with Beth and/or the other H/Ts.  Why is Jug so certain that the remains in the cage were not Natalee.  Did they have froensic evaluations done on anything from the cage?

I can only assume because I am not privy to the conversation Jug is having with Idstlou.
I think he is only getting the information that she tells him and I can tell from her posts that she is either confused it on purpose or actually is confused or she might be wanting everyone to focus on anything but that cage. I don't know. I'm just telling the truth of what I know to be.

To me, the photos speak for themselves. How many skeletons in a fish trap fit the measurements of someone missing and a blue denim material found and blue tarp etc.





Thanks, Kermit.  Those measurements are concrete.  They're not an abstract theory.  Some will believe that Natalee was in the cage and some will believe that those were not her remains.  However, those measurements comparing the cage contents to Natalee's actual body are actually the first scientific evidence about anything related to Natalee's disappearance that we have seen in 3 1/2 years.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 04:38:56 PM
private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).





Hi Kermit! Where was the blue denim supposed to be in the cage? I'm coloring!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Let me say that is awesome work you just did on that photo.

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2284/2350003000_a19516d71e_o.jpg)



bump for CBB to compare


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 04:39:23 PM
Where you been gunslinger?? I've missed you!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 04:39:27 PM

Hey, Gunslinger.

Do you happen to have any Excedrin?  This is just all too much for me, I think.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:40:53 PM
Tamikosmom, I draw this conclusion based on Kermit's post below.  If the family saw the photos, and the family read the FBI report, then they know that the Arubans didn't send all the cage evidence to the FBI.  Why cover up and not submit evidence unless it indicates that it is Natalee?  Additionally, the photos and Kyle's explanation of what they show is convincing.

So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.











Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 04:44:56 PM
One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?

The hotel lobby is the video I am referring to. thank you
The way I remember it, Beth said that was NOT Natalee in the Hotel lobby Video.

Beth Holloway
LOVING NATALEE

Page 97:
  The black and white footage plays.  Suddenly a girl with light hair crosses the threshold of the lobby.  The video is grainy, but clearly shows the lobby entrance of the Holiday Inn.  I ask them to rewind it and play it again.  I recognize her.  I want it to be Natalee, but know it's not.  It's Matt's daughter.  I ask to see it again.  Again.  Again.  Play it once more.  Now again.  More than ten times they rewind the spot on the tape that shows this young woman coming into the hotel and stopping at the front desk to get a key.  I so want it to be my daughter.  Maybe if I look at it enough times I can make it her.  Please!  Play it again.  Slow it down.  Now pause it.  Please, be Natalee, but it isn't.  I already know the second time I see it that it isn't her.  The tapes play out.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:45:13 PM
Kermit tells us the family has the photos and knows what Kyle believes they show.  The family also knows the conditions under which this trap was investigated by the Arubans.  The only conclusion I can draw for the silence of the family regarding this is to allow the Arubans to dig themselves even deeper into a cover up of monumental proportions.  Only by trapping the Aruban officials in an undeniable coverup can justice be found.  This is beginning to happen and the rats are pointing fingers and scurrying.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 04:46:09 PM
I have no idea what I think, so I'm just throwing this out based upon Joran's behavior, and for the moment, thinking Natalee's remains were in the cage.

Joran's shoe/shoes seemed to be a big issue to him from the get go. I don't doubt there was something with the shoes/shoes, that he feared.

What if Joran's show was purposefully placed in the cage with Natalee's remains as insurance to keep him quiet? If he told, and if she was found, then they also find the evidence needed to convict Joran.




You're right CBB.  The sneaker could be insurance or it could have been hastily thrown in there by Urine, himself, to get rid of it since the other one was in the pond.  Beth heard reports about a bloody sneaker at the Sloot home.  I don't believe that she ever actually saw a sneaker.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 04:47:34 PM
Tamikosmom, I draw this conclusion based on Kermit's post below.  If the family saw the photos, and the family read the FBI report, then they know that the Arubans didn't send all the cage evidence to the FBI.  Why cover up and not submit evidence unless it indicates that it is Natalee?  Additionally, the photos and Kyle's explanation of what they show is convincing.

So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.



Thanks AZLady

It would be interesting to know when ALL the images came to the attention of the FBI and Natalee's family.

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 04:48:06 PM
Kermit tells us the family has the photos and knows what Kyle believes they show.  The family also knows the conditions under which this trap was investigated by the Arubans.  The only conclusion I can draw for the silence of the family regarding this is to allow the Arubans to dig themselves even deeper into a cover up of monumental proportions.  Only by trapping the Aruban officials in an undeniable coverup can justice be found.  This is beginning to happen and the rats are pointing fingers and scurrying.

This i agree with AZ..Still why such resistance to what Kermit is telling us when backed up by facts and not innuendo????


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:49:22 PM
I don't think Joran or anyone expected the cage to be found or Joran's shoe, if it's in there, to be found, either.  I believe the shoes were tossed into the cage with Natalee's remains because the shoes had her blood all over it.  They felt they had to be disposed of along with her body.  No one thought they would be found.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 04:49:49 PM
I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.

They only named Tim T  as one of the divers ,I do not know who the other two were because Kyle would help me name them in my thread.

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/TimTrahan.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 04:50:48 PM
Kermit tells us the family has the photos and knows what Kyle believes they show.  The family also knows the conditions under which this trap was investigated by the Arubans.  The only conclusion I can draw for the silence of the family regarding this is to allow the Arubans to dig themselves even deeper into a cover up of monumental proportions.  Only by trapping the Aruban officials in an undeniable coverup can justice be found.  This is beginning to happen and the rats are pointing fingers and scurrying.




They had better start scurrying and pointing pretty fast, because this case is scheduled to be closed in three weeks.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Pita on December 05, 2008, 04:52:44 PM
So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.


And Jug still says it's not Natalee in the trap.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:53:07 PM
Kermit tells us the family has the photos and knows what Kyle believes they show.  The family also knows the conditions under which this trap was investigated by the Arubans.  The only conclusion I can draw for the silence of the family regarding this is to allow the Arubans to dig themselves even deeper into a cover up of monumental proportions.  Only by trapping the Aruban officials in an undeniable coverup can justice be found.  This is beginning to happen and the rats are pointing fingers and scurrying.

This i agree with AZ..Still why such resistance to what Kermit is telling us when backed up by facts and not innuendo????

Were you here in June 2005 when so much "misinformation" was posted that it made your head spin?  It was a deliberate attempt to fuzzy the facts and mislead people following the case on the web.  I don't see much resistance to Kermit's revelations--just a few vocal distractors.  Actually, if you took a vote, you'd see an overwhelming number of people who are considering and discussing Kermit's information, and only a very few who don't like the discussion.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 04:53:17 PM
I don't think Joran or anyone expected the cage to be found or Joran's shoe, if it's in there, to be found, either.  I believe the shoes were tossed into the cage with Natalee's remains because the shoes had her blood all over it.  They felt they had to be disposed of along with her body.  No one thought they would be found.




I don't think any of them ever dreamed that Persistence would arrive.  Unfortunately, as PI put it, the game was fixed.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Pita on December 05, 2008, 04:54:28 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet
No, it's not too late.  As long as images exist from that exploration, they can be analyzed.

I pray that Kyle has had another change of heart and ... has done what he inititially intended to do ... share ALL the ROV images with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family ... share all his observations and concerns while he was a crew member of the Persistence with the FBI and Natalee Holloway's family.

It should be all about justice for Natalee Holloway.  It is all about closure for Natalee Holloways family.  Nothing else!

Janet




He did not have a change of heart and has continued to threaten me for posting at SM.


Kermit, in what ways is he threatening you?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:54:49 PM
So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.


And Jug still says it's not Natalee in the trap.
And what is Jug's source of information and how much does he know of the family's knowledge? I dont' want to offend anyone, but Jug is no longer married to Beth and I would assume not privy to the everything the family knows now.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Pita on December 05, 2008, 04:56:02 PM
Kermit tells us the family has the photos and knows what Kyle believes they show.  The family also knows the conditions under which this trap was investigated by the Arubans.  The only conclusion I can draw for the silence of the family regarding this is to allow the Arubans to dig themselves even deeper into a cover up of monumental proportions.  Only by trapping the Aruban officials in an undeniable coverup can justice be found.  This is beginning to happen and the rats are pointing fingers and scurrying.

This i agree with AZ..Still why such resistance to what Kermit is telling us when backed up by facts and not innuendo????

Were you here in June 2005 when so much "misinformation" was posted that it made your head spin?  It was a deliberate attempt to fuzzy the facts and mislead people following the case on the web.  I don't see much resistance to Kermit's revelations--just a few vocal distractors.  Actually, if you took a vote, you'd see an overwhelming number of people who are considering and discussing Kermit's information, and only a very few who don't like the discussion.

Many who don't like the discussion simply aren't posting, I being one of them.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 04:56:25 PM
So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.



The question remains!How does anyone know,who or what the contents of the cage were if they weren't examined Forensicly???And if the contents of the cage are in the hands of the ALE,and or Arubans we'll never know!
And Jug still says it's not Natalee in the trap.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 04:56:43 PM



Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.

Do you have a link to the story where Amy Bradley was seen in Barranquilla?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 04:57:26 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 05, 2008, 04:57:36 PM
So, is it the blue trio (lower left) that was the denim?

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-denim.jpg)

Maybe it is a shoe yes  ::MonkeyWink::

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Shoe-water.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 04:58:23 PM
Kermit tells us the family has the photos and knows what Kyle believes they show.  The family also knows the conditions under which this trap was investigated by the Arubans.  The only conclusion I can draw for the silence of the family regarding this is to allow the Arubans to dig themselves even deeper into a cover up of monumental proportions.  Only by trapping the Aruban officials in an undeniable coverup can justice be found.  This is beginning to happen and the rats are pointing fingers and scurrying.

This i agree with AZ..Still why such resistance to what Kermit is telling us when backed up by facts and not innuendo????

Were you here in June 2005 when so much "misinformation" was posted that it made your head spin?  It was a deliberate attempt to fuzzy the facts and mislead people following the case on the web.  I don't see much resistance to Kermit's revelations--just a few vocal distractors.  Actually, if you took a vote, you'd see an overwhelming number of people who are considering and discussing Kermit's information, and only a very few who don't like the discussion.

Many who don't like the discussion simply aren't posting, I being one of them.

Why may i ask don't you like the discussion???


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 04:58:43 PM
Kermit tells us the family has the photos and knows what Kyle believes they show.  The family also knows the conditions under which this trap was investigated by the Arubans.  The only conclusion I can draw for the silence of the family regarding this is to allow the Arubans to dig themselves even deeper into a cover up of monumental proportions.  Only by trapping the Aruban officials in an undeniable coverup can justice be found.  This is beginning to happen and the rats are pointing fingers and scurrying.

This i agree with AZ..Still why such resistance to what Kermit is telling us when backed up by facts and not innuendo????

Were you here in June 2005 when so much "misinformation" was posted that it made your head spin?  It was a deliberate attempt to fuzzy the facts and mislead people following the case on the web.  I don't see much resistance to Kermit's revelations--just a few vocal distractors.  Actually, if you took a vote, you'd see an overwhelming number of people who are considering and discussing Kermit's information, and only a very few who don't like the discussion.

Many who don't like the discussion simply aren't posting, I being one of them.
Thank you for not distracting from the conversation.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Pita on December 05, 2008, 04:59:47 PM
So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.



The question remains!How does anyone know,who or what the contents of the cage were if they weren't examined Forensicly???And if the contents of the cage are in the hands of the ALE,and or Arubans we'll never know!
And Jug still says it's not Natalee in the trap.

I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 05:00:13 PM
I don't think Joran or anyone expected the cage to be found or Joran's shoe, if it's in there, to be found, either.  I believe the shoes were tossed into the cage with Natalee's remains because the shoes had her blood all over it.  They felt they had to be disposed of along with her body.  No one thought they would be found.




I don't think any of them ever dreamed that Persistence would arrive.  Unfortunately, as PI put it, the game was fixed.

That is rewind and played in my head over and over."It was a superb effort,but the game was fixed"


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 05:02:46 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 05:03:50 PM
press release Kingdom Cabinet:

it's about the cabinet approving of a Kingdom Law regarding the Justice System Aruba/Antilles and the new countries Curaçao/St.Maarten.
this Law will be send now to the Raad van State - this is a advisory board.
then it will be send together with the Raad van State adivisory to the Parliaments of Aruba/Antilles/Netherlands for a vote on it.

Aruba didn't agree with it as it didn't mention moving the Common Court to Aruba.
but Aruba only has one vote in the Kingdom Cabinet, and the Antilles voted for it because they want to keep the Common Court in Curaçao of course.

both the MEP and AVP want it to be moved to Aruba.
but AVP doesn't want MEP to use it as blackmail.
to me it seems that it's unlikely the Aruban Parliament will have enough support to vote it into law.
they vote will be sometime next year. because it takes time for the Raad van State to prepare the advisory.

interesting bit comes at the end:
Quote
Het wetsvoorstel berust op consensus tussen Nederland en de Nederlandse Antillen in verband met de nieuwe staatkundige verhoudingen. Ten aanzien van Aruba berust het op de bevoegdheid bij Rijkswet regels te stellen ter waarborging van de rechtszekerheid. Daarvoor is immers het Gemeenschappelijk Hof van Justitie onmisbaar.
Quote
The bill relies on consensus between the Netherlands and the Netherlands Antilles concerning the new associations between the countries. With respect to Aruba it rests on the competence of the legal system to guarantee the legal security. For that the common Court of Justice is indispensable

http://www.nieuwsbank.nl/inp/2008/12/05/R294.htm

in fact it is saying the legal system on Aruba isn't functioning properly, so no way the Common Court is going to be relocated there.
that's why Rudy Croes is pissed off.
and to Rudy Croes all Dutchies working for his Justice Department are the reason for Aruba's legal system to not function properly - so he can't have his Common Court, and still he feels Curaçao is ruling over Aruba.
so that's one reason he is now attacking Jan van der Straten.
it's all politics.

i am still trying to find out what this Article 14 Kingdom Law is.
but i suspect this is an error in the Amigoe article.
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50164.php
they might have got the Kingdom Lawbook and the Kingdom Charter'/Statute mixed up.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 05:04:39 PM
My last effort and I don't know how helpful this is. The pics are taken from different angles, so no matter what you do they won't match exactly. I tried to match up the corner bars of the cage and the back bar, regardless of Natalee's image. Kinda weird it fell into place.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-nat2.gif)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 05:04:45 PM
So, the family saw the photos around the middle of March.  They've been aware of the trap's pictures and its contents since then. 

I am aware that PI saw the photos.
I am aware that Beth & Dave have the photos.
I am aware that the fbi has the photos.



The question remains!How does anyone know,who or what the contents of the cage were if they weren't examined Forensicly???And if the contents of the cage are in the hands of the ALE,and or Arubans we'll never know!
And Jug still says it's not Natalee in the trap.

I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

The way i see it is not having the contents of the cage is a very BIG problem.I think it has been posted numerous times as to WHY we don't have them.I find it troubling to say the least.Same goes for any and everything regarding the search not being turned over in a timely fashion.That goes straight to someone's character,as well as integrity...........


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 05:05:49 PM



Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.

Do you have a link to the story where Amy Bradley was seen in Barranquilla?




No, I don't, but her family had a very good website set up with lots of information.  If you Google it, I'm sure you will find it if it still exists.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 05:08:20 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Pita on December 05, 2008, 05:10:57 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 05:13:19 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 05:17:31 PM
IMO

Apparently ... when Aruba closes the Natalee Holloway case ... the FBI on the request of the family is allowed access to all the case files ... case files which will reveal a coverup from the getgo.
However ... in anticipation ... prior to closing the case ... Aruba is now conceding that one of their own was responsible for preventing justice from prevailing in the first ten days ... ten days when all crucial evidence was destroyed.

The plan is perfect!!!

Janet




Janet - what if all of the information and evidence was never recorded in the case files.  Didn't one of the H/Ts see a ripped up statement on the desk?  Those photographs are the only solid evidence that we have.

+++++++


SS ... there are witnesses that can testify that it was obvious that the ALE was disregarding all evidence within the first ten days that would implicate Joran, Deepak, Satish or Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Janet

++++++

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for Dec. 5th
updated 6:18 a.m. PT, Tues., Dec. 6, 2005


TWITTY: ... Remember, within the first 24 hours, we knew who the suspects were. We knew the persons that Natalee were taken from Carlos and Charlie‘s. We knew the license plate of the gray Honda they placed her in. We knew the condition that Natalee was in. We knew the behavior or the conduct in which they engaged in with Natalee.

And then not only that, Jane, within 72 hours, we knew that their first story was totally fabricated, that within the first 72 hours, I faced a room of 12 -- at least 12 detectives, Aruban and Dutch detectives, and a lead detective, Dennis Jacobs (ph), and they knew after we reviewed video footage from the Holiday Inn casino lobby that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. They knew that those suspects were fabricating a story from day one.

<snipped>

TWITTY: Well, Jane, something that the family knew—and we have to keep reminding everyone—after 72 hours -- 72 hours—we knew definitively that these suspects were not telling the truth. We knew that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. Of course we were becoming frustrated. Who wouldn‘t, at this point? You know, we—and what was so unbelievable about this, is they knew this information and still chose to pursue the two security guards on June the 5th.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348437/


'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for December 1
updated 7:37 a.m. PT, Fri., Dec. 2, 2005


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER: Well, of course, it's very frustrating. You know, the entire investigation, that's all we've had is frustration coming out of the officials from Aruba.  You know, evidence—you know when evidence is gathered and lost or evidence is never gathered when it's supposed to be, just (INAUDIBLE) the primary residence of Paulus Van Der Sloot was never searched —I mean, you know, it just can't help but raise all the questions of—and leave us frustrated.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/


'Scarborough Country' for August 11
updated 6:33 a.m. PT, Fri., Aug. 12, 2005


JUG TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: ... but when they take my statement 33 days later, and they take the other guys‘ statements that were with me and ladies that were with me, you know, like 19 days later, it‘s like they didn‘t want to find the truth.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8925176/


'Scarborough Country' for Oct. 21st
updated 1:46 p.m. PT, Sun., Oct. 23, 2005


HOLLOWAY TWITTY: They never—they never wanted to implicate these three young men.  They never wanted to implicate them from the beginning. And there is a list of reasons, you know, why we know that is true.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9796403/from/RL.2/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 05:17:57 PM
The story has gone international with UPI picking it up.  This came from Moldovia of all places.


The Aruban justice minister charged Thursday that the police commissioner stalled an investigation into a U.S. teen's disappearance.

The minister, Rudy Croes, said the commissioner, Jan van der Straten, was concerned because the lead suspect was the son of a friend, Radio Netherlands reported.

Natalee Holloway came to Aruba with other members of the senior class at a high school in the suburbs of Birmingham, Ala., on a class trip in 2005. She vanished after leaving a bar.

Joran van der Sloot has been arrested twice in the case and released both times. In December 2007, the prosecutor said there was not enough evidence to charge anyone and declared the case closed.

Aruba, a former colony of the Netherlands, is a separate country under the Dutch crown. Croes also accused Dutch officials of not giving adequate support to the investigation in Aruba.

Paulus van der Sloot, Joran's father, was working for the Justice Ministry at the time of Holloway's disappearance.

Copyright 2008 by United Press International


Publication date: 05 December 2008   

Source: UPI-1-20081205-00474400-bc-aruba-holloway.xml


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Pita on December 05, 2008, 05:19:30 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 05:23:07 PM



Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.

Do you have a link to the story where Amy Bradley was seen in Barranquilla?




No, I don't, but her family had a very good website set up with lots of information.  If you Google it, I'm sure you will find it if it still exists.

The officer sighted her in a brothel on the island of Curacao.
Not Barranquilla Colombia

Barranquilla Colombia is where I found the club Frog Legs that had photos of a girl that looked like Natalee and those photos were viewed by Beth who discounted it as Not Natalee.

Here is a web site for Amy Bradley
http://wherearethey.bravepages.com/cases/anf001.html


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 05:24:29 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

yes well said


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 05:25:05 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

I think the Monkey's have wonderful inquisitive minds."Slanderous".Only if it's not TRUE!Sure we'll know in time.That's if OE,as well as the crew of the Persistence feel their being slandered??I for one will hear what Kermit has to say with an open-mind!As long as it is Logical to me!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 05:25:48 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

yes well said

if they did it would not say much for the fbi, my money is with them


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 05:27:17 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

yes well said

if they did it would not say much for the fbi, my money is with them

Time will tell won't it!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 05:28:25 PM



Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.

Do you have a link to the story where Amy Bradley was seen in Barranquilla?




No, I don't, but her family had a very good website set up with lots of information.  If you Google it, I'm sure you will find it if it still exists.

The officer sighted her in a brothel on the island of Curacao.
Not Barranquilla Colombia

Barranquilla Colombia is where I found the club Frog Legs that had photos of a girl that looked like Natalee and those photos were viewed by Beth who discounted it as Not Natalee.

Here is a web site for Amy Bradley
http://wherearethey.bravepages.com/cases/anf001.html




Edward - thanks for the Curacao correction.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 05:28:29 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

yes well said

if they did it would not say much for the fbi, my money is with them

Time will tell won't it!

it sure will


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Hotshot on December 05, 2008, 05:30:22 PM
Hotshot - where are you getting the information about the divers peeking in on the 30th, but not touching anything? We all saw it on TV.  I don't recall reading that anywhere.  Could you please give us the links?  Obviously there were two dives, and it appears that two, not one dive was filmed.

12/15/2007-Persistence arrived Aruba
12/18/2008-Persistence began search
12/24/2007-Located trap
12/25/2007-Tim Miller-Looks like a skull-Dateline video
12/26/2007-Persistence calibrations completed
12/29/2007-Dive Series of Persistence
12/29/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down per Dateline video
12/30/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down? Per transcript. Mos etc on board
12/31/2007-Multiple Dives

There is something that doesn't make sense.  If an American diver went down on the 30th and peeked into the without touching anything, and he gave a thumbs down signal indicating that nothing was in the cage, then why did ALE return on the 7th to clean the cage of something that wasn't there on the 30th?  Thats my question also  It was also explained to us that it wasn't a thumbs down sign, but rather an indication of low oxygen.  I remember that also

Ya know, I really do want to believe the Americans involved in all of this and I would like to be able to agree with everything that you are reporting that Jug says.  Why is it though that Kermit's photographs keep giving us different information and why do we keep finding discrepanices in all of the Persistence information?  I am starting to get really annoyed by the inconsistencies that keep appearing.

Was the photograph of Eduardo Mansur standing on the deck with the Tims taken on December 30th?  Was he one of the divers in the photograph dated 12/30?  I was to believe he was.
[/quote]Lets all not forget that there was a boat that got stranded out somewhere, and they had the Persistence go out and try to rescue them.  Who knows what went on there.  That took a few hours also.  If I recall correctly they never found the boat.  Who set that one up?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

How in the world did you twist a discussion about recently released pictures into an allegation that the Monkeys think they have more information than the FBI?   ::MonkeyNoNo::  Now that is some serious spin there.  I've been known to jump from topic to topic on occasion, but this just a canyon-sized leap you made there.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 05:33:12 PM
The war between Van der Stratten and Croes was probably a while in the making.  Maybe Croes decided that the only way to close this case was to offer a scapegoat.  But, this particular accusation against Van der Stratten also covers the Minister of Justice with the same mud because he is/was the ultimate party responsible for the actions of the police.  That is what puzzle me here.  I'm beginning to think that Croes knows he's going down, and he's going to take the rest of them with him. 

 
Next up bring Karin Jannsen into the corruption loop. She knew the evidence, she had to agree on delaying the arrest of J2K, she would have had to sign off on the security guards' arrest. It's now time to bring her fat ass into the spotlight.
It would really be nice to see Vo(king) , Smit, and Wit, start talking.  This whole thing can really get interesting fast.... Hmmm, Dompig would be a good one to bring in also.


The Public Ministry (Aruban prosecutor's office) affirmed that Ben King, head of the support division of the Attorney General, was present at the house of the Van der Sloot family when it was being searched Thursday last week.

Spokesperson Marianne Croes, of the prosecutor's office: “King was and is on holiday. He was indeed not present on behalf of the PM (during the search of the van der Sloot estate)” The spokesperson doesn’t want to comment on the various observations that find it strange that a member of the PM was present at the house of the suspects family while the search took place.

Sources within the PM affirm however that the PM as a whole is not happy at all with the actions of Ben King, because this may raise doubts with regard to the impartiality of the ministry.

King himself says that he and his family have been good friends with the Van der Sloots for some years now. Paul van der Sloot also worked for the PM in the past. King: “A few years ago, when I was working at KIA (local prison), I was maltreated by a prisoner and went through a rough period during which the Van der Sloot family provided us with fantastic support. We want to do the same for them now. But I realize naturally that I cannot stand at both sides on the line.”

And because of this King took some time off from his job to be able to support his friends. King: “It is a small island where conclusions are drawn very fast.” Both Public Ministry and I realize that we have to remain cool-headed. At the same time I have my rights as private-citizen and I want to support my friends in this difficult period.” Ben King was formerly named Vocking, he changed his name a few months ago and his name is now officially King. Exclamation


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Pita on December 05, 2008, 05:35:29 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

How in the world did you twist a discussion about recently released pictures into an allegation that the Monkeys think they have more information than the FBI?   ::MonkeyNoNo::  Now that is some serious spin there.  I've been known to jump from topic to topic on occasion, but this just a canyon-sized leap you made there.

See this is exactly why I haven't commented on the discussion.  Anybody who goes against the norm here either twists words or spins.  Carry on.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 05:43:16 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

yes well said




And all this time, I thought they were getting their information from us.   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 05:44:55 PM
Pita wrote:
I agree.  I wasn't aware OE is a forensic scientist.  Much of what I have seen seems to be based on his theories, with the exception of the pictures that he provided.

Of course OE is not a forensic scientist.  The theory is based on the FBI report, what is seen in the pictures that indicates the FBI did not receive all the contents of the cage, and OE's observations and experiences while onboard the Persistence.    This is pretty convincing.

I am not yet convinced that was Natalee in the case, especially after reading ldstlou's comments from Jug.   Also, do we know what the full FBI report contained or did Mos only reveal a part of it?  Many questions still remain unanswered.  I'm not ready to say the crew of the Persistence were involved in an intentional coverup.  That would be slanderous to say the least. 

For you.What are those questions??

I'm not going to get into those questions.  It doesn't matter.  All I will say is do people honestly think that a public internet forum has more information than the FBI who have/are investigating this case? 

yes well said




And all this time, I thought they were getting their information from us.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

i think we would be all surprised
cable news and msm poach a great deal here though



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 05:45:48 PM
Pita ..You always keep me grounded with correct information..   ::MonkeyDance::
I love it when you set me straight..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 05:47:37 PM
SS

=snipped-

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

-snipped-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/persist.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 05:51:56 PM
This picture Disturbs me.  ::MonkeyNoNo::
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/image532fx05.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/Natalee/ndm.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Rob on December 05, 2008, 05:52:42 PM
the same FBI that shut Max's case down yesterday? and those were all American citizens involved except the corrupt Aruba Polis Department.. Aruba is a sovereign nation... don't put your trust where no belongs


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 05:52:44 PM
The Dana Pretzer Show On Scared Monkeys Radio - Listen LIVE Tonight At 9PM Eastern - “Are Defense Attorneys Monsters, Or Are They Just Doing Their Job?”
 
Tonight, Dana welcomes the lawyers of some of American society’s most deplorable public figures - at least according to the media.


Attorney Joel Brodsky (regarding client Drew Peterson)
Attorney Mark Geragos (regarding client Scott Peterson)
Attorney Joe Tacopina (regarding client Joran Van der Sloot)  
Assistant District Attorney for Los Angeles County, Robin Sax
In tonight’s second segment, Melody Schmidt discusses the death of her son Joshua Whittier and asks if Joshua’s death is Florida’s “best kept secret”.

LISTEN LIVE TONIGHT AT 9PM EASTERN

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/12/05/the-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-are-defense-attorneys-monsters-or-are-they-just-doing-their-job/

____________________________


Dana ... I am looking forward to tonight's show.

Please keep mind ... Joe Tacopina's never changing position in regards to the non-involvement Joran van der Sloot in the events encompassing the morning of May 30, 2005 when an American citizen went missing and ... was never seen again.

Tacopina may think his client is a sociopath and ... his father is a simpleton but ... he contends that neither had anything to do with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Janet

+++++

On the Record w/ Greta
New Developments in Natalee Holloway Case
Friday, February 01, 2008


JOE TACOPINA, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT'S ATTORNEY: ... What I will tell you is this. There is nothing .... that's going to convince me, my investigators or anyone with intimate knowledge of this case that Joran had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance ...

<snipped>

TACOPINA: ... I'm as determined as ever to stand here and tell you that he had nothing to do with the disappearance.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327625,00.html


NANCY GRACE
Remains of Young White Female Found in Reno Field; Natalee Holloway Case Update
Aired February 15, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


JUG TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPFATHER: Well, Holly, I`ll tell you, it`s very disappointing. But it doesn`t surprise me. I`ll tell you what really made me sick today to be honest with you is to see his U.S. attorney, Joe Tacopina, whoever, who has been kind of hiding for the last week because he didn`t know what was going to happen all of a sudden come on and he`s all over the TV now. And he is just saying, you know, with a smirk on his face, which just it makes me sick.

But, yes, hey I told you so, nothing was going to happen. When he knows Joran is a time bomb just waiting to -- you know, to blow up.  

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0802/15/ng.01.html


Fallout From Joran van der Sloot's 'On the Record' Interview
Wednesday, November 26, 2008


TACOPINA: But I still tell you, and I stand by the notion that the investigation regarding the disappearance of Natalee Holloway has not led to Joran. That's the bottom line.

No one expects anyone to believe anything this kid has to say anymore. Quite frankly, he's on the verge of sociopath and despicable, but--

<snipped>

VAN SUSTEREN: Skip Joran. What -- Is the tape made up?

TACOPINA: I spoke to Paulus last night as this was going on. I mean, talk about a guy-- you don't know Paulus. I do. Paulus is a simpleton.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is this tape made up? Is this tape just crazy?

TACOPINA: He absolutely denies ever having that conversation, ever. So yes, I believe that tape's false.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,457715,00.html




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Helen Back on December 05, 2008, 05:53:39 PM
Gotta hand it to you Dana, if you can stand three defense attorneys at one time, you have a stronger stomach than I do!

Should be interesting, but I might bring my waders.

 ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 05, 2008, 05:54:08 PM
This picture Disturbs me ,where did Kyle get this picture of Natalee to use for this?
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/image532fx05.jpg)

The beach photo.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 05:55:47 PM
The Dana Pretzer Show On Scared Monkeys Radio - Listen LIVE Tonight At 9PM Eastern - “Are Defense Attorneys Monsters, Or Are They Just Doing Their Job?”
 
Tonight, Dana welcomes the lawyers of some of American society’s most deplorable public figures - at least according to the media.


Attorney Joel Brodsky (regarding client Drew Peterson)
Attorney Mark Geragos (regarding client Scott Peterson)
Attorney Joe Tacopina (regarding client Joran Van der Sloot)  
Assistant District Attorney for Los Angeles County, Robin Sax
In tonight’s second segment, Melody Schmidt discusses the death of her son Joshua Whittier and asks if Joshua’s death is Florida’s “best kept secret”.

LISTEN LIVE TONIGHT AT 9PM EASTERN

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/12/05/the-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-are-defense-attorneys-monsters-or-are-they-just-doing-their-job/

____________________________


Dana ... I am looking forward to tonight's show.

Please keep mind ... Joe Tacopina's never changing position in regards to the non-involvement Joran van der Sloot in the events encompassing the morning of May 30, 2005 when an American citizen went missing and ... was never seen again.

Tacopina may think his client is a sociopath and ... his father is a simpleton but ... he contends that neither had anything to do with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Janet

+++++

On the Record w/ Greta
New Developments in Natalee Holloway Case
Friday, February 01, 2008


JOE TACOPINA, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT'S ATTORNEY: ... What I will tell you is this. There is nothing .... that's going to convince me, my investigators or anyone with intimate knowledge of this case that Joran had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance ...

<snipped>

TACOPINA: ... I'm as determined as ever to stand here and tell you that he had nothing to do with the disappearance.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327625,00.html


NANCY GRACE
Remains of Young White Female Found in Reno Field; Natalee Holloway Case Update
Aired February 15, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


JUG TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPFATHER: Well, Holly, I`ll tell you, it`s very disappointing. But it doesn`t surprise me. I`ll tell you what really made me sick today to be honest with you is to see his U.S. attorney, Joe Tacopina, whoever, who has been kind of hiding for the last week because he didn`t know what was going to happen all of a sudden come on and he`s all over the TV now. And he is just saying, you know, with a smirk on his face, which just it makes me sick.

But, yes, hey I told you so, nothing was going to happen. When he knows Joran is a time bomb just waiting to -- you know, to blow up.  

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0802/15/ng.01.html


Fallout From Joran van der Sloot's 'On the Record' Interview
Wednesday, November 26, 2008


TACOPINA: But I still tell you, and I stand by the notion that the investigation regarding the disappearance of Natalee Holloway has not led to Joran. That's the bottom line.

No one expects anyone to believe anything this kid has to say anymore. Quite frankly, he's on the verge of sociopath and despicable, but--

<snipped>

VAN SUSTEREN: Skip Joran. What -- Is the tape made up?

TACOPINA: I spoke to Paulus last night as this was going on. I mean, talk about a guy-- you don't know Paulus. I do. Paulus is a simpleton.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is this tape made up? Is this tape just crazy?

TACOPINA: He absolutely denies ever having that conversation, ever. So yes, I believe that tape's false.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,457715,00.html





Jossy Mansur will also join me with some very interesting comments about recent events in aruba.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 05:56:32 PM
Gotta hand it to you Dana, if you can stand three defense attorneys at one time, you have a stronger stomach than I do!

Should be interesting, but I might bring my waders.

 ::MonkeyWink::

lol ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 05:57:04 PM
See this is exactly why I haven't commented on the discussion.  Anybody who goes against the norm here either twists words or spins.  Carry on.
Now, Pita, that is blatantly untrue and you know it.  The monkeys have always been open to all sorts of theories.  The only thing the monkeys don't like is censorship and attempts to disinform.  Your comments on the current discussion are welcome.  I'd like to hear them and your reasoning. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 05:57:49 PM
Holloway-case messed up by nepotism
4 Dec, 2008, 10:08 (GMT -04:00)

ORANJESTAD -- Jan van der Straten has messed up the investigation in the first ten days after it got out that the American teenager Natalee Holloway had disappeared.  He helped his ‘friend’ Paul van der Sloot to protect his suspected son Joran.

Justice-minister Rudy Croes says this now that he feels attacked by the former chief of police and the first investigation leader of the case.  Van der Straten has criticized certain aspects of the Police Corps (KPA) earlier this week.   “He has also compared our Guarda Nos Costa with a politically driven group à la Chávez (Venezuelan president)”, says  Croes.  “He is an activist of the opposition party AVP, that’s why, but he forgets that it is the Natalee Holloway-case that was driven by favouritism.”

Wait till retirement
“I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open”, continues the minister.  “But the time has come to tell the truth.  When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally:  ‘I can’t let this happen to my friend Paul’.  And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot.”

According to Croes, Van der Straten has perhaps consciously deployed the so-called flexiteam after the disappearance of Natalee.  “He said in May 2005: ‘I can solve this with my flexiteam’.  As everybody knows, the flexiteam was a team that was put into action when the regular police team was over-occupied; for example during carnival.
A detective could be included in the team, but it was no police-team that was capable of doing an investigation.  Why didn’t he call in the taya-team (police officers with a lot of expertise and experience – red.)?”

There are more things that went wrong.  “Why was a beach-bum accused at that time, who has been a choller before?  He had supposedly done it, while internally it was known that he hadn’t done it.  Very special is also the fact that the Dutch language was used during Joran’s interrogation, while he is fluent in Papiamento, same as our detective.  Our people could have done their work much better if the conversations were done in their own language.  Why was he so privileged?  Simply because it were ‘Dutch-friends’; all three of them: Joran, Paul, and Jan.  Don’t forget that a Dutch minister had asked me at that time not to mention that Joran is a European Dutch citizen.  I won’t say who this person is, but if by any chance I have to mention his name, I definitely will.  We felt abandoned by the Netherlands when Aruba was so devastated by the case.   I have told this to the Dutch premier Balkenende, state secretary Bijleveld (Kingdom Relations), and minister Hirsch-Ballin (Justice).  But until now, everybody has remained quit and has let the world besmear Aruba’s name.  They abandoned us and let us suffer.”

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot.  He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans.  “Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?  In the case of Marlies van der Kouwe in Bonaire, police officers were taken off the case because they have failed.  I challenge Van der Straten and Paul van der Sloot to come up with clarifications, so that Aruba’s name can be cleared from this mess (porkeria).

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Edward on December 05, 2008, 06:02:01 PM
the same FBI that shut Max's case down yesterday? and those were all American citizens involved except the corrupt Aruba Polis Department.. Aruba is a sovereign nation... don't put your trust where no belongs


The dropped Max Derives yesterday ? Where do you find this info ?
The F.B.I. should never close that case..
There is no way that man LOST that boy the way he said..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 06:03:11 PM
The war between Van der Stratten and Croes was probably a while in the making.  Maybe Croes decided that the only way to close this case was to offer a scapegoat.  But, this particular accusation against Van der Stratten also covers the Minister of Justice with the same mud because he is/was the ultimate party responsible for the actions of the police.  That is what puzzle me here.  I'm beginning to think that Croes knows he's going down, and he's going to take the rest of them with him. 


I love this article Blonde. If this would have happened in the U.S. Ben Vocking would have been fired on the spot and never worked for a government office the rest of his life! Karin Jannsen would have at the very least been reprimanded for ever allowing it to happen and probably would have lost her job as well.

This is a prime example of the arrogance and utter failure of the Dutch system to uphold justice to innocent victims. They are totally corrupt, rotten to the core.


 
Next up bring Karin Jannsen into the corruption loop. She knew the evidence, she had to agree on delaying the arrest of J2K, she would have had to sign off on the security guards' arrest. It's now time to bring her fat ass into the spotlight.
It would really be nice to see Vo(king) , Smit, and Wit, start talking.  This whole thing can really get interesting fast.... Hmmm, Dompig would be a good one to bring in also.


The Public Ministry (Aruban prosecutor's office) affirmed that Ben King, head of the support division of the Attorney General, was present at the house of the Van der Sloot family when it was being searched Thursday last week.

Spokesperson Marianne Croes, of the prosecutor's office: “King was and is on holiday. He was indeed not present on behalf of the PM (during the search of the van der Sloot estate)” The spokesperson doesn’t want to comment on the various observations that find it strange that a member of the PM was present at the house of the suspects family while the search took place.

Sources within the PM affirm however that the PM as a whole is not happy at all with the actions of Ben King, because this may raise doubts with regard to the impartiality of the ministry.

King himself says that he and his family have been good friends with the Van der Sloots for some years now. Paul van der Sloot also worked for the PM in the past. King: “A few years ago, when I was working at KIA (local prison), I was maltreated by a prisoner and went through a rough period during which the Van der Sloot family provided us with fantastic support. We want to do the same for them now. But I realize naturally that I cannot stand at both sides on the line.”

And because of this King took some time off from his job to be able to support his friends. King: “It is a small island where conclusions are drawn very fast.” Both Public Ministry and I realize that we have to remain cool-headed. At the same time I have my rights as private-citizen and I want to support my friends in this difficult period.” Ben King was formerly n
amed Vocking, he changed his name a few months ago and his name is now officially King. Exclamation


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 06:05:55 PM
None of these cowards believe they will be in any sort of legal jeopardy. The blaming and shaming is how they play this game. They did it with Natalee and Beth.

These Dutch who care so much about appearances get more thin-skinned by being made to look bad than caring at all about Natalee and a crime.

Look what they've already told us. The coordination began with the Tourism Board that backed the idea of attacking Natalee and defending Aruba. Steve Cohen is as guilty as Jan van der straaten in participating in a cover up. It was more like a strategy.

But it's out of control now, and the paranoid don't do well in this situation. I think Natalee haunts them literally and Rudy Croes and Joran van der sloot and Paulus are afraid to turn their heads.

If Joran can go free spinning stories, why don't you think Rudy Croes and jan van der straaten can too?

It's like they are playing power games with each other by revealing bits and pieces of what they already know, like little rounds of ammo to hurt each other.

Every day I still am shocked at the fact that no one person has the courage to stand up and risk everything by ending this nightmare. I still am amazed really.

I never believed people could be that totally without soul. They all know what happened. Nothing is beyond reality. I'm still waiting for Paulus to represent the guards in a suit against the Aruba Police Department.

Both the guards and the van der sloots have called the police "fools."

Is that a lie? Are they as Steve Cohen says "confused not corrupt?"



Mitch said on Greta's program Monday night that Van der Straten told them that any questions the family wanted answered would have to go through the Aruba Tourism Board. Who was on that board? ANTONIO CARLO, Joran's lawyer and PVDS' good buddy future business partner to be.

Who worked with the tourism boards ATA and AHATA? Steve Cohen. I think Dana needs to get Steve back on to play hardball.



Joran's lawyer, Antonio Carlo, and the prosecutor, Karin Janseen, where the lawyer says he wants to clear his own conscience and that Joran is very much involved, that he played a major part in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway—but that Carlo is leaving it to the police to find the evidence. [Another van der Sloot attorney has denied that this happened.]


URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/109260


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 06:06:05 PM

The Public Ministry (Aruban prosecutor's office) affirmed that Ben King, head of the support division of the Attorney General, was present at the house of the Van der Sloot family when it was being searched Thursday last week.

Spokesperson Marianne Croes, of the prosecutor's office: “King was and is on holiday. He was indeed not present on behalf of the PM (during the search of the van der Sloot estate)” The spokesperson doesn’t want to comment on the various observations that find it strange that a member of the PM was present at the house of the suspects family while the search took place.

Sources within the PM affirm however that the PM as a whole is not happy at all with the actions of Ben King, because this may raise doubts with regard to the impartiality of the ministry.

King himself says that he and his family have been good friends with the Van der Sloots for some years now. Paul van der Sloot also worked for the PM in the past. King: “A few years ago, when I was working at KIA (local prison), I was maltreated by a prisoner and went through a rough period during which the Van der Sloot family provided us with fantastic support. We want to do the same for them now. But I realize naturally that I cannot stand at both sides on the line.”

And because of this King took some time off from his job to be able to support his friends. King: “It is a small island where conclusions are drawn very fast.” Both Public Ministry and I realize that we have to remain cool-headed. At the same time I have my rights as private-citizen and I want to support my friends in this difficult period.” Ben King was formerly n
amed Vocking, he changed his name a few months ago and his name is now officially King. Exclamation



I love this article Blonde. If this would have happened in the U.S. Ben Vocking would have been fired on the spot and never worked for a government office the rest of his life! Karin Jannsen would have at the very least been reprimanded for ever allowing it to happen and probably would have lost her job as well.

This is a prime example of the arrogance and utter failure of the Dutch system to uphold justice to innocent victims. They are totally corrupt, rotten to the core.



(Sorry for the pervous post, got buried in the quote stacks)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 06:06:20 PM
See this is exactly why I haven't commented on the discussion.  Anybody who goes against the norm here either twists words or spins.  Carry on.
Now, Pita, that is blatantly untrue and you know it.  The monkeys have always been open to all sorts of theories.  The only thing the monkeys don't like is censorship and attempts to disinform.  Your comments on the current discussion are welcome.  I'd like to hear them and your reasoning. 

Just asked a question?Thought that's what Monkey's do..Socratic Method.. ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 06:10:11 PM
None of these cowards believe they will be in any sort of legal jeopardy. The blaming and shaming is how they play this game. They did it with Natalee and Beth.

These Dutch who care so much about appearances get more thin-skinned by being made to look bad than caring at all about Natalee and a crime.

Look what they've already told us. The coordination began with the Tourism Board that backed the idea of attacking Natalee and defending Aruba. Steve Cohen is as guilty as Jan van der straaten in participating in a cover up. It was more like a strategy.

But it's out of control now, and the paranoid don't do well in this situation. I think Natalee haunts them literally and Rudy Croes and Joran van der sloot and Paulus are afraid to turn their heads.

If Joran can go free spinning stories, why don't you think Rudy Croes and jan van der straaten can too?

It's like they are playing power games with each other by revealing bits and pieces of what they already know, like little rounds of ammo to hurt each other.

Every day I still am shocked at the fact that no one person has the courage to stand up and risk everything by ending this nightmare. I still am amazed really.

I never believed people could be that totally without soul. They all know what happened. Nothing is beyond reality. I'm still waiting for Paulus to represent the guards in a suit against the Aruba Police Department.

Both the guards and the van der sloots have called the police "fools."

Is that a lie? Are they as Steve Cohen says "confused not corrupt?"



Mitch said on Greta's program Monday night that Van der Straten told them that any questions the family wanted answered would have to go through the Aruba Tourism Board. Who was on that board? ANTONIO CARLO, Joran's lawyer and PVDS' good buddy future business partner to be.

Who worked with the tourism boards ATA and AHATA? Steve Cohen. I think Dana needs to get Steve back on to play hardball.



Joran's lawyer, Antonio Carlo, and the prosecutor, Karin Janseen, where the lawyer says he wants to clear his own conscience and that Joran is very much involved, that he played a major part in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway—but that Carlo is leaving it to the police to find the evidence. [Another van der Sloot attorney has denied that this happened.]


http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:U4QVEn2aUfAJ:www.newsweek.com/id/109260/output/print+Joran's+lawyer,+Antonio+Carlo,+and+the+prosecutor,+Karin+Janseen,+where+the+lawyer+says+he+wants+to+clear+his+own+conscience+and+that+Joran+is+very+much+involved,+that+he+played+a+major+part+in+the+disappearance+of+Natalee+Holloway%E2%80%94but+that+Carlo+is+leaving+it+to+the+police+to+find+the+evidence.+%5BAnother+van+der+Sloot+attorney+has+denied+that+this+happened.%5D&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


Thanks, Blonde. Here again a Dutch law was broken and ignored. Defendent's lawyers are absolutely prohibited from speaking to a prosecutor. It makes you wonder, how many other times did Karin Jannsen talk to the defendents' lawyers? Why did she remain silent after talking to Antonio Carlo?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 06:10:15 PM
The Dana Pretzer Show On Scared Monkeys Radio - Listen LIVE Tonight At 9PM Eastern - “Are Defense Attorneys Monsters, Or Are They Just Doing Their Job?”
 
Tonight, Dana welcomes the lawyers of some of American society’s most deplorable public figures - at least according to the media.


Attorney Joel Brodsky (regarding client Drew Peterson)
Attorney Mark Geragos (regarding client Scott Peterson)
Attorney Joe Tacopina (regarding client Joran Van der Sloot)  
Assistant District Attorney for Los Angeles County, Robin Sax
In tonight’s second segment, Melody Schmidt discusses the death of her son Joshua Whittier and asks if Joshua’s death is Florida’s “best kept secret”.

LISTEN LIVE TONIGHT AT 9PM EASTERN

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/12/05/the-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-are-defense-attorneys-monsters-or-are-they-just-doing-their-job/

____________________________


Dana ... I am looking forward to tonight's show.

Please keep mind ... Joe Tacopina's never changing position in regards to the non-involvement Joran van der Sloot in the events encompassing the morning of May 30, 2005 when an American citizen went missing and ... was never seen again.

Tacopina may think his client is a sociopath and ... his father is a simpleton but ... he contends that neither had anything to do with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Janet

+++++

On the Record w/ Greta
New Developments in Natalee Holloway Case
Friday, February 01, 2008


JOE TACOPINA, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT'S ATTORNEY: ... What I will tell you is this. There is nothing .... that's going to convince me, my investigators or anyone with intimate knowledge of this case that Joran had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance ...

<snipped>

TACOPINA: ... I'm as determined as ever to stand here and tell you that he had nothing to do with the disappearance.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327625,00.html


NANCY GRACE
Remains of Young White Female Found in Reno Field; Natalee Holloway Case Update
Aired February 15, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


JUG TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPFATHER: Well, Holly, I`ll tell you, it`s very disappointing. But it doesn`t surprise me. I`ll tell you what really made me sick today to be honest with you is to see his U.S. attorney, Joe Tacopina, whoever, who has been kind of hiding for the last week because he didn`t know what was going to happen all of a sudden come on and he`s all over the TV now. And he is just saying, you know, with a smirk on his face, which just it makes me sick.

But, yes, hey I told you so, nothing was going to happen. When he knows Joran is a time bomb just waiting to -- you know, to blow up.  

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0802/15/ng.01.html


Fallout From Joran van der Sloot's 'On the Record' Interview
Wednesday, November 26, 2008


TACOPINA: But I still tell you, and I stand by the notion that the investigation regarding the disappearance of Natalee Holloway has not led to Joran. That's the bottom line.

No one expects anyone to believe anything this kid has to say anymore. Quite frankly, he's on the verge of sociopath and despicable, but--

<snipped>

VAN SUSTEREN: Skip Joran. What -- Is the tape made up?

TACOPINA: I spoke to Paulus last night as this was going on. I mean, talk about a guy-- you don't know Paulus. I do. Paulus is a simpleton.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is this tape made up? Is this tape just crazy?

TACOPINA: He absolutely denies ever having that conversation, ever. So yes, I believe that tape's false.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,457715,00.html




Jossy Mansur will also join me with some very interesting comments about recent events in aruba.


 ::MonkeyDance::

Dana ... Jossy is the only Aruban who has upheld the family's contention that a corrupt investigation has denied Natalee justice from the getgo and ... for that I am so grateful..

Janet

+++++

BETH TWITTY
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
September 14, 2005


TWITTY: Well, you know, I‘ll be forever grateful for Jossy Mansur, who is there. And he has been so instrumental. And he‘s just a hero to all of us. And, you know, he‘s my only hope on the island. And we‘ll be forever grateful to him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9354188/


DAVE HOLLOWAY
Dana Pretzer Show
September 8, 2006


HOLLOWAY: Jossy has been very helpful to try to find the truth, the fact he lives in Aruba and publishes a newspaper, they're attacking him because he's looking for-- fighting for-- the truth. That’s what a good journalist does--He's going to go after the people, regardless, and try to find the truth


STEVE HOLLOWAY
Scared Monkey - FP Comments
April 6, 2007

 
Comment #20 ... I think he is a good man looking for the truth. He will not let them push him around. This is his home and is probably sick of the corruption that happens every day on such a large scale on such a small island.

Comment by Steve Holloway | April 6, 2007, 1:02 pm


JUG TWITTY
Scared Monkey - FPComments
December 5, 2006


Comment #6 ... THANK YOU JOSSY I DON’T KNOW HOW YOU DO IT BUT YOU HAVE BEEN THERE FOR US FROM THE BEGENNING AND THE PEOPLE OF ARUBA SHOULD BE PROUD OF YOU.
Comment by JUG TWITTY | December 5, 2006, 10:57 am


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bastibro on December 05, 2008, 06:12:02 PM
Hotshot - where are you getting the information about the divers peeking in on the 30th, but not touching anything? We all saw it on TV.  I don't recall reading that anywhere.  Could you please give us the links?  Obviously there were two dives, and it appears that two, not one dive was filmed.

12/15/2007-Persistence arrived Aruba
12/18/2008-Persistence began search
12/24/2007-Located trap
12/25/2007-Tim Miller-Looks like a skull-Dateline video
12/26/2007-Persistence calibrations completed
12/29/2007-Dive Series of Persistence
12/29/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down per Dateline video
12/30/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down? Per transcript. Mos etc on board
12/31/2007-Multiple Dives

There is something that doesn't make sense.  If an American diver went down on the 30th and peeked into the without touching anything, and he gave a thumbs down signal indicating that nothing was in the cage, then why did ALE return on the 7th to clean the cage of something that wasn't there on the 30th?  Thats my question also  It was also explained to us that it wasn't a thumbs down sign, but rather an indication of low oxygen.  I remember that also

Ya know, I really do want to believe the Americans involved in all of this and I would like to be able to agree with everything that you are reporting that Jug says.  Why is it though that Kermit's photographs keep giving us different information and why do we keep finding discrepanices in all of the Persistence information?  I am starting to get really annoyed by the inconsistencies that keep appearing.

Was the photograph of Eduardo Mansur standing on the deck with the Tims taken on December 30th?  Was he one of the divers in the photograph dated 12/30?  I was to believe he was.
Lets all not forget that there was a boat that got stranded out somewhere, and they had the Persistence go out and try to rescue them.  Who knows what went on there.  That took a few hours also.  If I recall correctly they never found the boat.  Who set that one up?
[/quote]

If i recall correctly, according to Kermit Kyle said the FBI confirmed that there were human remains in the trap


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 06:16:20 PM
This picture Disturbs me ,where did Kyle get this picture of Natalee to use for this?
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/image532fx05.jpg)




Thanks Blonde.  It sure looks to me like the photograph of the three divers and the up close photograph of the cage contents were taken within minutes of each other on January 30th.  According to the press release, Tim T. was diving with 2 Aruban divers, one believed to be Eduardo Mansur.  Now, how could they possibly come to the surface and say that there was nothing in the cage?  How could they tell Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway that there was nothing in the cage?  It's impossible that they saw nothing in the cage because the their own photographs show that there was a lot in the cage.  It was the same nothing in the cage that ALE went back down and confiscated on January 7th - a shoe, a denim skirt, and some human remains.  I am overwhelmed by this.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 06:17:01 PM
maybe ask Hero Brinkman on the radio show one day.
he can explain a lot about the politics.
i've read his debates in parliament and he is very well informed about the situation on Aruba and the other islands.

and he has been police inspector in Amsterdam before he got into politics.

coincidence is that Jan van der Straten wanted him arrested.
to me that shows that Brinkman was on to something.

contact form:
http://www.pvv.nl/index.php?option=com_facileforms&Itemid=114
i've got his phone numbers and e-mail if you want it.

i don't know how well he speaks English...
especially because it can get complicated with all formal political jargon to explain.
in Dutch he is very good at it. he appears regularly on Dutch shows both radio and TV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_Freedom
Quote
The Party for Freedom (Dutch: Partij voor de Vrijheid, PVV) is a Dutch conservative political party. It is led by Geert Wilders, who was the only representative in Dutch parliament of the forerunner of the party, the Group Wilders faction. The party won nine seats in the 2006 general election, making it the fifth largest party in parliament, and third largest opposition party.

Hero Brinkman, Amsterdam policeman, nicknamed Rambo of the Bellamybuurt


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 06:18:09 PM
See this is exactly why I haven't commented on the discussion.  Anybody who goes against the norm here either twists words or spins.  Carry on.
Now, Pita, that is blatantly untrue and you know it.  The monkeys have always been open to all sorts of theories.  The only thing the monkeys don't like is censorship and attempts to disinform.  Your comments on the current discussion are welcome.  I'd like to hear them and your reasoning. 

Just asked a question?Thought that's what Monkey's do..Socratic Method.. ::MonkeyWink::
Me, too.  Well, she'll comment when she wants.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 06:19:58 PM

Joran's lawyer, Antonio Carlo, and the prosecutor, Karin Janseen, where the lawyer says he wants to clear his own conscience and that Joran is very much involved, that he played a major part in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway—but that Carlo is leaving it to the police to find the evidence. [Another van der Sloot attorney has denied that this happened.][/b]

URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/109260



Quote from: Pita on February 12, 2008, 04:55:56 PM

The LineUp 12-03-06


Kimberly: Dutch Crime Reporter Peter De Vries conducted the investigation. I asked him about his conversation with Van der Sloots first attorney Antonio Carlo. Listen to this.

Peter: Well we paid Carlo a visit in his office and we recorded that with candid camera and at first he tried to deny that there had been a meeting with head prosecutor but after a while he realized what we knew and then he got very uncomfortable and admitted that there had been a meeting and that was with the head prosecutor and panicked and he was very uncomfortable with this.

Kimberly: Now how did Antonio Carlo describe why he met Karin Janssen?

Peter: Well he didnt want to tell us very much about it but what we found out that there was a secret meeting and thats highly unusually because head prosecutor is not allowed to have talks during an investigation with the lawyer or attorney so thats very strange and also Karin Janssen the head prosecutor wrote us a fax in which she admitted that a meeting took place so its impossible to deny that there was a meeting.

Kimberly: And what was divulged during these meetings.

Peter: Well in the meeting Mr. Carlo said that he had to clear his conscience and that Joran Van der Sloot played a major part in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. No doubt at all that he said that.

Kimberly: Did he go into any other details in terms of what that means played a major part in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway?

Peter: Well he then stated to the head prosecutor that it was up to the police and the justice to get the full proof of this but that he wanted to clear his conscience and that yeah they had to do the work.

Kimberly: And how many letters were exchanged back and forth between them and what information was in those letters?

Peter: Well the head prosecutor wrote him a letter and she asked for more details and then Mr. Carlo got scared because his tip was certainly on paper and he didnt expect that because it was a secret meeting and when Karin Janssen put it on paper he realized it was no longer a secret so then he wrote a letter back and denied he had said something like that.

Kimberly: Now have any of the Aruban or Dutch Officials contacted you about this important information?

Peter: Yeah they contact me I have several sources in this case and there is really no doubt not for one percent that he said that.

Kimberly: And what do the investigators make of this?

Peter: Now they make of this of course that Joran Van der Sloot is responsible for the disappearance of Natalee.

Kimberly: Wow. Now you know of course Jorans current attorney Joe Tacopina said that this is making up facts your fabricating facts there was no such meeting.

Peter: No then (Peter started laughing) he doesnt know what happened I think and I have recording with our candid camera which shows the opposite of what he is saying so I dont think hes very well informed.

Kimberly: Alright well Peter thank you so much in joining me tonight and talking about these new developments.

Peter: OK welcome.

http://www.katablog.com/day_blogs.cfm?d=4&m=12&y=2006


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: oldfart on December 05, 2008, 06:22:11 PM
Good Day Monkeys  long time No See :smt006

I'm so far out of date... I'm not going to even get into the fish trap except to ask... Do we know the size of it ...   7x7x2  I thought

And someone please tell me  the Rudy  cut his Own throat  with this statement
Wait till retirement
Quote
“I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open”, continues the minister.  “But the time has come to tell the truth.  When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally:  ‘I can’t let this happen to my friend Paul’.  And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot.”

Please tell me that he just said That He knew there were problems and did NOTHING to point them out / stop them!   To me that would make him part of the conspiracy !!!

Oh but maybe Arura does not have conspiracy type laws....  ::MonkeyConfused::

TIA





Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 05, 2008, 06:22:17 PM
Excuse me, Caylee forum at page 98.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 06:23:00 PM
It can't end with van der straaten. How the search warrant was not granted for the van der sloot residence widens the loyalty to all things Dutch.


I am delighted to know Peter deVries is well informed on Paulus' corrupt ties and assume he didn't play any of it during his last program because he is still working on it. He has already let it be known that Paulus had access to all the investigative files, including those of the FBI.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 06:23:12 PM
JOSSY MANSUR:  THE GEROLD DOMPIG SECRETLY RECORDED TAPE

Quote from: Pita on February 12, 2008, 04:55:56 PM

The LineUp 12-03-06


Jossy Mansur (Editor of Dario Newspaper in Aruba) by phone:

Kimberly: I got to ask you what did the former police chief say to you about Joran Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers involvement in Natalees disappearance.

Jossy: He definitely confirmed that they admitted to the police that they had molested the girl while she was going in and out of consciousness but among other things that he said.

Kimberly: And how long was this conversation and who specifically did you speak to.

Jossy: I spoke to Gerald Dompig the conversation took place in my office for about an hour and I have it all on video tape.

Kimberly: Any why did you video tape it Jossy?

Jossy: Because as the Diario we usually do that with people we dont trust to begin with. To have a documented proof of whatever we are going to publish in the future.

Kimberly: Alright well there are many people who doubt that you have this tape and want to know in fact is contained in this video tape? Do you have a transcript of this?

Jossy: You know many people doubt many things I say but after I publish the truth everybody becomes quiet. They go into a profound silence. But we have the proof I have the tape the video tape, we have various copies of it made.

Kimberly: OK and you claim to have a transcript in fact that links the boys to Natalees disappearance. Do you have that for us that you can read a portion of that?

Jossy: I can read a portion for you for example when I asked him about the case he said well you know we cannot go because we dont have a body but you have a model crime and on the basis of their own declarations, Im quoting him at the bottom now and then he said look if its not rape they fingered her, they did a lot of things to her according to their own declarations and he we have an article in our penal code that provides an eight year sentence for that. If you do that to a girl who is not conscious they themselves said that she passed out on (inaudible) phases in the car. That means if you do that to a person who cannot defend herself its eight years. He told me this (inaudible) Im quoting from the tape.

Kimberly: And what else did he tell you?

Jossy: He told me many other things. For example you are not talking about Joran alone because while the other guy was driving the car they were making out with the girl in the back.

Kimberly: And when you say they who was he referring to did he specify the Kalpoe brothers?

Jossy: He said the Kalpoe brothers with Joran yes.

Kimberly: Did you ask him why he didnt do anything with this information and why a case wasnt presented by the prosecutor?

Jossy: No because I thought they would proceed on the basis of a model crime because he confirmed that these three suspects admitted this to the police.

Kimberly: Jossy have you presented this tape to the new police chief or the prosecutors office. Who else has the information?

Jossy: The tape I only have the tape, I havent given it to anyone because so many things have happened in this case and so many mistrusts of who you can trust and who you cannot trust so I will present it to the prosecution when this case goes to court.

Kimberly: Jossy Mansur thank you for being on with me tonight.

http://www.katablog.com/day_blogs.cfm?d=4&m=12&y=2006


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 06:24:55 PM
Good Day Monkeys  long time No See :smt006

I'm so far out of date... I'm not going to even get into the fish trap except to ask... Do we know the size of it ...   7x7x2  I thought

And someone please tell me  the Rudy  cut his Own throat  with this statement
Wait till retirement
Quote
“I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open”, continues the minister.  “But the time has come to tell the truth.  When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally:  ‘I can’t let this happen to my friend Paul’.  And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot.”

Please tell me that he just said That He knew there were problems and did NOTHING to point them out / stop them!   To me that would make him part of the conspiracy !!!

Oh but maybe Arura does not have conspiracy type laws....  ::MonkeyConfused::

TIA




Merry Christmas, OF.  Oh, yes.  I think Rudy has shot himself in the foot.  He's a part of this whole mess.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 06:25:27 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: oldfart on December 05, 2008, 06:25:42 PM
OH DANA

If you have a chance   ask  Joe my question about Rudy and conspiracy,  since Joe must know something about Aruba Law by now   Or He can call  Arlene and get back with you  ::MonkeyWink::
TIA


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: oldfart on December 05, 2008, 06:33:14 PM
<<Snip>>
Merry Christmas, OF.  Oh, yes.  I think Rudy has shot himself in the foot.  He's a part of this whole mess.
Merry Chirstmas AzLady
Just in the foot   :2sad:  I was hoping the gun was stuck down the middle of his front waist band :smt023


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 06:34:40 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.

Like i said before.For me it is quite disturbing.SS ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 06:35:49 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 06:39:54 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.

What's the saying "The effort was superb,but the game was fixed" ::MonkeyEek::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: oldfart on December 05, 2008, 06:40:51 PM
Headed out...
Simple ?  ...   did anyone bother the measure the size of the wire mesh used on the trap & record it and do we happen to know what it was?

If so... that would assist greatly in determining what size the objects in the Pics are.

JMO of course

SeeYaLater...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 06:43:24 PM
Does anyone have the knowledge or ability to do photographic facial reconstruction on this skull?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 06:44:28 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 06:44:54 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.

What's the saying "The effort was superb,but the game was fixed" ::MonkeyEek::



It was a statement made by a monkey, PI, who just happens to be Natalee's uncle.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 06:46:52 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20

So at 15:39 they signaled no remains and there was a picture taken at 15:40 showing what appears to be remains??Is this correct??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 06:48:31 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.

What's the saying "The effort was superb,but the game was fixed" ::MonkeyEek::



It was a statement made by a monkey, PI, who just happens to be Natalee's uncle.
I'm not convinced yet the whole crew of the Persistence fixed the game.  It would only take one key person to manage this.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 06:48:42 PM
Can someone put the two pictures together that say the time of the signal then the time of the picture taken at 15:40??..TIA


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 06:49:25 PM
KTF - you are right on the money.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 06:50:39 PM


So at 15:39 they signaled no remains and there was a picture taken at 15:40 showing what appears to be remains??Is this correct??
It looks like it.  You know, sometimes I get weary of people thinking we are doddering idiots.  Then, at other times it just makes me very angry.  Yes, it does look like there are remains when they tell us there are not.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 06:53:00 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 06:53:48 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.

What's the saying "The effort was superb,but the game was fixed" ::MonkeyEek::



It was a statement made by a monkey, PI, who just happens to be Natalee's uncle.

I'm not convinced yet the whole crew of the Persistence fixed the game.  It would only take one key person to manage this.


Two ... one in charge of the search effort and ... one diver.

Janet



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 06:55:30 PM
KTF - you are right on the money.

Help me out SS.The NO signal was that for Dateline??Then another picture,and or pictures were taken immediately after that??Who took those pictures?? ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 06:55:49 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.

YES!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 06:56:18 PM
Janet, you are correct.  The man who gives the orders and the one who implements them.  John Silvetti and Tim Trahan. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 06:56:34 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.

What's the saying "The effort was superb,but the game was fixed" ::MonkeyEek::



It was a statement made by a monkey, PI, who just happens to be Natalee's uncle.
I'm not convinced yet the whole crew of the Persistence fixed the game.  It would only take one key person to manage this.

I agree, but did not want to say names.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 06:57:31 PM
Hotshot - where are you getting the information about the divers peeking in on the 30th, but not touching anything? We all saw it on TV.  I don't recall reading that anywhere.  Could you please give us the links?  Obviously there were two dives, and it appears that two, not one dive was filmed.

12/15/2007-Persistence arrived Aruba
12/18/2008-Persistence began search
12/24/2007-Located trap
12/25/2007-Tim Miller-Looks like a skull-Dateline video
12/26/2007-Persistence calibrations completed
12/29/2007-Dive Series of Persistence
12/29/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down per Dateline video
12/30/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down? Per transcript. Mos etc on board
12/31/2007-Multiple Dives

There is something that doesn't make sense.  If an American diver went down on the 30th and peeked into the without touching anything, and he gave a thumbs down signal indicating that nothing was in the cage, then why did ALE return on the 7th to clean the cage of something that wasn't there on the 30th?  Thats my question also  It was also explained to us that it wasn't a thumbs down sign, but rather an indication of low oxygen.  I remember that also

Ya know, I really do want to believe the Americans involved in all of this and I would like to be able to agree with everything that you are reporting that Jug says.  Why is it though that Kermit's photographs keep giving us different information and why do we keep finding discrepanices in all of the Persistence information?  I am starting to get really annoyed by the inconsistencies that keep appearing.

Was the photograph of Eduardo Mansur standing on the deck with the Tims taken on December 30th?  Was he one of the divers in the photograph dated 12/30?  I was to believe he was.
Lets all not forget that there was a boat that got stranded out somewhere, and they had the Persistence go out and try to rescue them.  Who knows what went on there.  That took a few hours also.  If I recall correctly they never found the boat.  Who set that one up?
[/quote]



01/17/2008-Persistence gets call on “Michelle” in distress

January 2008
01/07/2008-Tim and Dave off boat
01/07/2008-Persistence lost Internet Connectivity for 2 days until 1/09
01/07/2008-Trap contents sampled
01/07/2008-Aruban Divers dive from Aruban boat
01/07/2008-And 1/8-New night-time grid searches
01/11/2008-Kyle at HI for 4 days (10-14th of Jan)
01/11/2008-And 01/12 Kyle saw vessel at Persistence location
01/12/2008-Email to Dave
01/12/2008-Persistence never returned to site of trap after this
01/17/2008-Persistence gets call on “Michelle” in distress

Can a mod please delete Post#101 in Blonde’s search thread…I corrected the errors in the 2007/2208 dates and reposted…TIA

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.new#top



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 06:58:07 PM
Television shows, even reality tv, is scripted.  There are no surprises when shooting a tv show like Dateline.  They knew what the actions of the divers would be before they began to film.  Scripted.  For TV.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 06:58:40 PM
The divers went on a nationally televised documentary, being filmed at that moment, and very clearly announced to millions of viewers that there was nothing in the cage.  The Persistence crew and ALE sat onboard and confirmed that there was nothing in the cage.  I wonder if this presents a liability issue for the network.  This is journalistic fraud.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 06:59:27 PM
The only reason that I can see for being upset about the fish
trap photos is that some are trying to protect the crew of the
Persistence, who fixed the game.

What's the saying "The effort was superb,but the game was fixed" ::MonkeyEek::



It was a statement made by a monkey, PI, who just happens to be Natalee's uncle.
I'm not convinced yet the whole crew of the Persistence fixed the game.  It would only take one key person to manage this.

I agree, but did not want to say names.
You are too polite, Magnolia, my dear.  I don't beat around the bush.  If our logical train of thought takes us to specific people, I see no reason to avoid their names.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:02:01 PM
The divers went on a nationally televised documentary, being filmed at that moment, and very clearly announced to millions of viewers that there was nothing in the cage.  The Persistence crew and ALE sat onboard and confirmed that there was nothing in the cage.  I wonder if this presents a liability issue for the network.  This is journalistic fraud.

Can someone put those two pictures with the discrepancies together and post it???I'm not that computer literate!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 07:02:10 PM
The divers went on a nationally televised documentary, being filmed at that moment, and very clearly announced to millions of viewers that there was nothing in the cage.  The Persistence crew and ALE sat onboard and confirmed that there was nothing in the cage.  I wonder if this presents a liability issue for the network.  This is journalistic fraud.

Perhaps.  But most people in the business call it "entertainment."  Dateline is not news; it is entertainment created to generate money. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:05:06 PM
Janet, you are correct.  The man who gives the orders and the one who implements them.  John Silvetti and Tim Trahan. 

So what was Kyle(OE)??In the beginning an unwillingly participant??If he ran the ROV he knew what was in the cage so that makes #3.Correct me if i'm wrong..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 07:05:18 PM
Janet, you are correct.  The man who gives the orders and the one who implements them.  John Silvetti and Tim Trahan. 

In collaboration with the Aruban divers and ... the Aruban "powers that be" involved with the search effort.

However ... Kyle was not fooled but felt intimated to speak out.  It was not the high road but ... to a point ... I understand his silence.  I just wish he had chosen the high road once the search of the Persistence came to an end and ... shared his concerns and observations with the FBI and/or Natalee's family.  In other words ... exposed the entire deception encompassing the search for Natalee's remains.

Janet

++++++++

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:06:55 PM
KTF - you are right on the money.

Help me out SS.The NO signal was that for Dateline??Then another picture,and or pictures were taken immediately after that??Who took those pictures?? ::MonkeyConfused::




Dateline, but I don't know if their footage was their own or copied from the ROV footage.  My guess is that it was copied from the ROV footage and whoever was operating the ROV knew not to pan the lens to the left side of the cage.  I wonder if Dateline was aware of what was in the cage, or if they were also duped.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 05, 2008, 07:07:18 PM
Rob

I agree about FBI.  My hope is on State Dept...somehow.  I believe even Bachus talked of meeting with State Dept AND FBI...so I'm hoping a "different" angle has been keeping abreast. 

Blast from the past  June 24, 2005  (sorry no link):

Contacted by the AP hours before his arrest, Paul van der Sloot declined to comment on the case.

While Anita van der Sloot had been allowed to visit her son occasionally at the San Nicolas prison, authorities denied similar access to Paul van der Sloot, saying they believed contact between the two could damage the investigation.

Anita van der Sloot said she and her husband received a call from neighbors saying police were waiting for them at their home in Noord, northwest of the capital, Oranjestad. She then called Police Superintendent Jan van der Straaten, who asked them to come to the police station. When they arrived, authorities "took my husband into custody as a suspect," Anita van der Sloot said, adding, "I don't know what to think."



Call Jan....the chat upstairs to ask Paulus to pick up Joran and bring him to Bubali...the calls to check on info that searchers found....Anita calling Jan to clarify what neighbors said.....no...they aren't friends....I'm sure all suspects had a direct line to Jan.... ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
The divers went on a nationally televised documentary, being filmed at that moment, and very clearly announced to millions of viewers that there was nothing in the cage.  The Persistence crew and ALE sat onboard and confirmed that there was nothing in the cage.  I wonder if this presents a liability issue for the network.  This is journalistic fraud.

Can someone put those two pictures with the discrepancies together and post it???I'm not that computer literate!



It's one or two pages back.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
Here's an oldie but goodie:

Greta asks Arlene Shippers about the 2 black security guards who were arreste.

Her response is so interesting.

"we don't like to talk about that."


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:13:43 PM
Photographs taken two minutes apart.   ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:13:50 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.

OK. ::MonkeyEek::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 07:16:05 PM
Rob

I agree about FBI.  My hope is on State Dept...somehow.  I believe even Bachus talked of meeting with State Dept AND FBI...so I'm hoping a "different" angle has been keeping abreast. 

Blast from the past  June 24, 2005  (sorry no link):

Contacted by the AP hours before his arrest, Paul van der Sloot declined to comment on the case.

While Anita van der Sloot had been allowed to visit her son occasionally at the San Nicolas prison, authorities denied similar access to Paul van der Sloot, saying they believed contact between the two could damage the investigation.

Anita van der Sloot said she and her husband received a call from neighbors saying police were waiting for them at their home in Noord, northwest of the capital, Oranjestad. She then called Police Superintendent Jan van der Straaten, who asked them to come to the police station. When they arrived, authorities "took my husband into custody as a suspect," Anita van der Sloot said, adding, "I don't know what to think."



Call Jan....the chat upstairs to ask Paulus to pick up Joran and bring him to Bubali...the calls to check on info that searchers found....Anita calling Jan to clarify what neighbors said.....no...they aren't friends....I'm sure all suspects had a direct line to Jan.... ::MonkeyNoNo::

Source:

Aruban judge's son changes story about being alone with missing Alabama teen
Updated June 24, 2005, 10:12 a.m. ET


http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/0624/aruba_ap.html


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 07:16:40 PM



Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.

Do you have a link to the story where Amy Bradley was seen in Barranquilla?




No, I don't, but her family had a very good website set up with lots of information.  If you Google it, I'm sure you will find it if it still exists.

I am aware of that page.  It does not mention Barranquilla.  It is my understanding that the sailor who may have seen her was in Curacao.  I have a reason for asking about the Barranquilla reference and was hoping there was more information about it.  I could not find it anywhere as related to Amy Bradley.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 07:17:02 PM
What is that red rectangle also in the cage.  I didn't see anything even close to that in a baggie. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 07:18:14 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.

OK. ::MonkeyEek::


Tim Miller/Tim Trahan
Dateline
February 22, 2008


Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."

<snipped>

(On the boat) Tim Miller: Divers coming up right now. I don't know it looked as promising today as it did last night or before.

Miller: Nothing?

Trahan: No.

Chris Hansen: That had to be a crushing blow.

Tim Miller: It was a crushing blow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 07:18:52 PM



Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.

Do you have a link to the story where Amy Bradley was seen in Barranquilla?




No, I don't, but her family had a very good website set up with lots of information.  If you Google it, I'm sure you will find it if it still exists.

I am aware of that page.  It does not mention Barranquilla.  It is my understanding that the sailor who may have seen her was in Curacao.  I have a reason for asking about the Barranquilla reference and was hoping there was more information about it.  I could not find it anywhere as related to Amy Bradley.


No, Truthseeker, it was Curacao and not Barranquilla.  Don't know how that got all confused.

 ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dayhiker on December 05, 2008, 07:18:54 PM
Here's an oldie but goodie:

Greta asks Arlene Shippers about the 2 black security guards who were arreste.

Her response is so interesting.

"we don't like to talk about that."


Of course they don't. Especially the part about giving the Van der Sloots 5 extra days (on top of the 5 they already gave them) to destroy the evidence.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:19:35 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.

OK. ::MonkeyEek::

The Photos didn't come forward but i saw them SS.Now i'm asking.How does someone dispute what Kermit has brought forward.I continue to ask the questions and recieve no answers??

1.We see the contents of the cage.
2.They signal "NO" contents in the cage.
3.There are pictures of the contents.
4.The contents look like remains.
5.Where are the contents of the cage???Gone.Bye,bye
6.No ability to forensicly test the contents.
7."Superb effort,but the game is fixed"
8.I'm gettin sick again....


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 07:20:13 PM
Just an interesting tidbit about NBC and Dateline at http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/dateline-nbc/news/100110

It is not in relation to the Natalee Holloway show produced by Dateline, but to the "To Catch a Predator" Show.  NBC has settled a $105 million lawsuit brought by the sister of a man profiled in a Dateline NBC: To Catch a Predator report....Earlier this year, a judge scolded NBC, saying the network "crossed the line from responsible journalism to irresponsible and reckless intrusion into law enforcement."Terms of the settlement were not announced.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 07:22:47 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is  NOT Tim Miller hand but tim was standing next to him
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:24:51 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.

OK. ::MonkeyEek::

The Photos didn't come forward but i saw them SS.Now i'm asking.How does someone dispute what Kermit has brought forward.I continue to ask the questions and recieve no answers??

1.We see the contents of the cage.
2.They signal "NO" contents in the cage.
3.There are pictures of the contents.
4.The contents look like remains.
5.Where are the contents of the cage???Gone.Bye,bye
6.No ability to forensicly test the contents.
7."Superb effort,but the game is fixed"
8.I'm gettin sick again....




I reposted them again.  They're at the bottom of the last page.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 07:25:37 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.

OK. ::MonkeyEek::

The Photos didn't come forward but i saw them SS.Now i'm asking.How does someone dispute what Kermit has brought forward.I continue to ask the questions and recieve no answers??

1.We see the contents of the cage.
2.They signal "NO" contents in the cage.
3.There are pictures of the contents.
4.The contents look like remains.
5.Where are the contents of the cage???Gone.Bye,bye
6.No ability to forensicly test the contents.
7."Superb effort,but the game is fixed"
8.I'm gettin sick again....

 ::MonkeyHaHa::



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:26:04 PM
These photographs were taken two minutes apart while Tim Trehen, Edyardi Mansur, and another diver were at the cage site.  How can they say there was nothing in the cage?  We have photographs that there was something in the cage when they were there.

OK. ::MonkeyEek::

The Photos didn't come forward but i saw them SS.Now i'm asking.How does someone dispute what Kermit has brought forward.I continue to ask the questions and recieve no answers??

1.We see the contents of the cage.
2.They signal "NO" contents in the cage.
3.There are pictures of the contents.
4.The contents look like remains.
5.Where are the contents of the cage???Gone.Bye,bye
6.No ability to forensicly test the contents.
7."Superb effort,but the game is fixed"
8.I'm gettin sick again....




I reposted them again.  They're at the bottom of the last page.

Thanx SS.Do you have a direct link to the footage from dateline??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 07:27:16 PM
I thught the thumbs down/you're out meant there were no human remains clearly visible in the trap, not that it was totally empty. 

Anyone recall the exact instructions on the signs from diver?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 07:27:52 PM
GOOD BYE FOR NOW

Keepthefaith, Debbie, adoronron, the big hammer, SS, Magnolia, Anna, Frijole, Edward, MuffyBee, BoxerDawg, truthseeker2, AZLady, MumInOhio, johan555, can, bastibro, hotping, cajun miracle, Frank and 25 Guests viewing this topic.


Janet
4:30 PM PT


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 07:28:16 PM
What is that red rectangle also in the cage.  I didn't see anything even close to that in a baggie. 
I just don't know I see it too.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/2345841784_52614dbecb_o2.jpg)
At 300%
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/red-1.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 07:30:42 PM
Janet, you are correct.  The man who gives the orders and the one who implements them.  John Silvetti and Tim Trahan. 

But, I think Kyle becomes implicated when the Persistence
reached American shores and he did not turn the footage
over to the proper authorities....but instead peddled them
around to different media sources.  He knew better.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 07:31:11 PM


Thanx SS.Do you have a direct link to the footage from dateline??

Not SS but ...

Janet
++++++

The search for Natalee Holloway

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:31:49 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is NOT Tim Miller hand , but he was on the ship
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581




Oh My God, Blonde.  The timestamp next to Tim Millers hand shows 13 minutes later.  Tim was reported to be off the ship on June 7th when the cage contents were taken by ALE, but he was onbaord during this film sequence.  Please someone, say it isn't so.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:35:56 PM
Just an interesting tidbit about NBC and Dateline at http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/dateline-nbc/news/100110

It is not in relation to the Natalee Holloway show produced by Dateline, but to the "To Catch a Predator" Show.  NBC has settled a $105 million lawsuit brought by the sister of a man profiled in a Dateline NBC: To Catch a Predator report....Earlier this year, a judge scolded NBC, saying the network "crossed the line from responsible journalism to irresponsible and reckless intrusion into law enforcement."Terms of the settlement were not announced.




I think a few lines were crossed on December 30th, too.


Do I recall that we were once told that Dateline had viewed a different cage.  I recall that, but I can't remember when or by whom.  If so, it wasn't true.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 07:36:50 PM
Janet, you are correct.  The man who gives the orders and the one who implements them.  John Silvetti and Tim Trahan. 

But, I think Kyle becomes implicated when the Persistence
reached American shores and he did not turn the footage
over to the proper authorities....but instead peddled them
around to different media sources.  He knew better.

The is my understanding also.

According to Kermit ... the reason Kyle began communictions with him/her was for the purpose of obtaining a means of contacting Beth so he could share the remainder of the ROV images of the cage.  However ... somewhere along the line he had a change of heart.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Janet

+++++++

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
NO SORRY NOT TIM 'S HAND BUT HE WAS THERE


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:40:49 PM
I think the hand on the screen just cleared the cage.


Klaas - is Red around for a comment?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 05, 2008, 07:41:54 PM
Janet

Thanks for link.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 07:42:08 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is NOT Tim Miller hand  but he was on the ship
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581




Oh My God, Blonde.  The timestamp next to Tim Millers hand shows 13 minutes later.  Tim was reported to be off the ship on June 7th when the cage contents were taken by ALE, but he was onbaord during this film sequence.  Please someone, say it isn't so.



NOT TIM'S HAND BUT TIM WAS STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY WHO POINTED
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/NOTTIM.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 07:43:44 PM
I think the hand on the screen just cleared the cage.


Klaas - is Red around for a comment?

I don't see him online yet tonight.  He'll probably show up right around 9pm ET and the Dana Pretzer show.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:43:57 PM


Thanx SS.Do you have a direct link to the footage from dateline??

Not SS but ...

Janet
++++++

The search for Natalee Holloway

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/


Thanx for the link Janet!;)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 07:44:08 PM
I thught the thumbs down/you're out meant there were no human remains clearly visible in the trap, not that it was totally empty. 

Anyone recall the exact instructions on the signs from diver?


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 01:05:16 PM 

The fact is as the bottom line: whether true or not, according to our FBI and the Aruban chief prosecutor we are suppose to believe the trap does not contain Natalee's remains at this point.  This is based on the wording of the FBI report and Mos's press release. 
-Base on that, the project leads are wisely putting opinions one way or another aside to plan on investigating the remaining targets in the event her remains are still out there among the sonar targets.
 
- I will not go on the record and state my opinion of whether or not her remains are in that trap because I do not want to sway peoples opinion, spread potentially false hope, destroy valid hope, or eliminate objectivity for other competing scenarios.

-The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.

 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 07:44:39 PM
SS - that's not 13 minutes it's 4 minutes later.  15:39 vs. 15:43


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:44:43 PM
NO SORRY NOT TIM 'S HAND BUT HE WAS THERE




Blonde - thanks for the update that it isn't Tim's hand on the screen.  Can you determine who's hand it is?  Even knowing that Tim was standing there, leaves me feeling really bad.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 07:46:39 PM
Link to the video on Dateline of the dive on the cage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qK95qsXq6Q


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MuffyBee on December 05, 2008, 07:46:48 PM
Blonde ~  Can you go back and modify the post you made that erroneously reports that is Tim's hand pointing on the screen?  And there is another post from a monkey remarking on your post about it being Tim's hand.  It would be best to modify and clarify asap.  Although you later posted it wasn't Tim's hand, but that he was there, it is still best to make certain things are correct, or else it starts getting crazy... jmho


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 07:48:34 PM
See Tim and look ant the next screen, look what's in the guys lap CONTROLS  maybe ROV controls

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/TIMANDCONTROLS.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: the big hammer on December 05, 2008, 07:49:28 PM
JQK Is Gonna Nail Van Der Sloot

Frank writes : Here's an oldie but goodie: Greta asks Arlene Shippers about the 2 black security guards who were arreste.

Her response is so interesting: "we don't like to talk about that."


I'm sure we all read today's news.  Do you maybe believe a Friend of Court brief was filed?  

It was Kelly who won the the civil conviction on behalf of the Brown family -- years ago.  Today, justice was served to Orenthal James Simpson.  The Brown family achieves their retribution -- utterly.

It will be so with sloot.

Sloot has no where even close to the staying power of OJ, or the reaching tentacles.

The sloots could -- and likely have spent $millions -- finding a way out of this --the murder of an American girl -- but they can't get away from a committed and determined individual who has more power and legal artillery at his disposal than Paulus (a failed judge in training) could hope to muster.

This story will NEVER leave the headlines, it will always be told, it will always be refocused on the true victim --

And that is because a genuine hero is managing this case.

These are just the opening rounds of the terror-stricken conspirators flailing at each other --

-- what do you think happens when the US Sec of State (NY Senator, down the block from Kellys' office) gets a call?

We shall see.

The pathetic bleatings of Rudy Croes -- damning the fat slob cop van der Straaten -- will have an echo:

SHUT THAT WOMAN UP.

Yeah, we'll see who gets the last word here.

.

 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:49:44 PM
SS - that's not 13 minutes it's 4 minutes later.  15:39 vs. 15:43



Thanks Klaas - and I'm an educator.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 07:50:47 PM
I hesitate to consider complicity amongst everyone aboard when Dateline filmed the show.  A show is not created during the filming but later during the editing.  When film is edited, a story is created.  Just because Tim Miller and others were present during the filming does not mean these people were consulted in the editing and telling of the story on tv.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:52:51 PM
SS.From watching that again does Tim Miller not say "Bullsh$T" to the "NO" sign.Correct me if i'm wrong!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 07:52:54 PM
SS - that's not 13 minutes it's 4 minutes later.  15:39 vs. 15:43



Thanks Klaas - and I'm an educator.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Will some-one please show me the January 2008 date?...TIA


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Anna on December 05, 2008, 07:53:12 PM
Remember Tim thought it was a skull at first and it was not until much later that he knew it wasn't.  He even told Dave how positive he was and then he and Dave were contacted by Marco to come to Nicaragua, etc.  So his being there on that date doesn't implicate Tim Miller in anything!



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 07:55:08 PM
I thught the thumbs down/you're out meant there were no human remains clearly visible in the trap, not that it was totally empty. 

Anyone recall the exact instructions on the signs from diver?


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 01:05:16 PM 

The fact is as the bottom line: whether true or not, according to our FBI and the Aruban chief prosecutor we are suppose to believe the trap does not contain Natalee's remains at this point.  This is based on the wording of the FBI report and Mos's press release. 
-Base on that, the project leads are wisely putting opinions one way or another aside to plan on investigating the remaining targets in the event her remains are still out there among the sonar targets.
 
- I will not go on the record and state my opinion of whether or not her remains are in that trap because I do not want to sway peoples opinion, spread potentially false hope, destroy valid hope, or eliminate objectivity for other competing scenarios.

-The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.






Yet these photographs were taken the day before on December 29th.  It certainly didn't take CBB very long to enlarge the photograph to very clearly show a skull and a shoe like the one Urine van der Sloot was missing.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 07:55:41 PM
SS.From watching that again does Tim Miller not say "Bullsh$T" to the "NO" sign.Correct me if i'm wrong!

I thought it was the F bomb.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
SS.From watching that again does Tim Miller not say "Bullsh$T" to the "NO" sign.Correct me if i'm wrong!

I thought it was the F bomb.

Watch it again CBB!Sounds like Two syllables.I could be wrong.More opinions anyone??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 07:57:16 PM
The cage is never clearly viewed during the Dateline dive, and Dateline bleeped out something Tim Miller said. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 07:57:16 PM
Kermit said that Tim was not involved.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 07:59:27 PM
I would sure love to ask Tim Miller his assessment of the dive and recovery.  Tim is an honest man, a straight-shooter, and he would not be involved in any cover-up.  Never.  This is why, IMO, they sent him away for a week in January during the recovery.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 07:59:43 PM
The cage is never clearly viewed during the Dateline dive, and Dateline bleeped out something Tim Miller said. 

Listen to it AZlady and let me know what you think??TIA


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:01:06 PM
SS - that's not 13 minutes it's 4 minutes later.  15:39 vs. 15:43



Thanks Klaas - and I'm an educator.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Will some-one please show me the January 2008 date?...TIA



January 7th


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:02:49 PM
Kermit said that Tim was not involved.




Yes, Kermit did say that.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 08:03:20 PM
Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -  on: March 03, 2008, 08:34:25 PM
 
To clarify the thumb down issue:

-It was agreed immediately before the 30-Dec dive that 2 thumbs up (by Tim Trahan) meant positive ID on Natalee from something conclusive.
-One thumb up was to indicate human remains

-There was no set signal pre-dive for anything but the above scenarios.
 
By Tim's own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive. His signal indicated an inconclusive observation referring to the object said by some to be a skull, a hardened sponge by others...
What you can't see is immediately before Tim approached the trap opening, a large skate stirred up sediment reducing visibility.
The quick signal came because the dive time was nearly up .


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 08:06:00 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581
You can view the scene where the divers signal at the link above.  I enlarged the screen to full screen.  When you do this, you can clearly read Tim Miller's lips--he says "Bullshit."  No doubt about it.  Tim doesn't believe the signal and says it is bullshit.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 08:06:09 PM
SS - that's not 13 minutes it's 4 minutes later.  15:39 vs. 15:43



Thanks Klaas - and I'm an educator.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Will some-one please show me the January 2008 date?...TIA



January 7th


SS...With Tim? Please!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 08:06:57 PM
Remember Tim thought it was a skull at first and it was not until much later that he knew it wasn't.  He even told Dave how positive he was and then he and Dave were contacted by Marco to come to Nicaragua, etc.  So his being there on that date doesn't implicate Tim Miller in anything!



No.  I think Tim Miller was deceived.  I believe Tim was a pawn in an endeavor that was never about justice for Natalee Holloway ... a pawn used to raise fund for this endeavor through his well known credible organization call Texas Equusearch.

Once Tim Miller observed the ROV image and ... was convinced there was a skull in that cage ... damage control was where it was at.  As Kyle stated in an email to Kermit ... Tim was now a liability.

Janet

______

Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008


And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
<snipped>

Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."  

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007


COLBY:  Tim, why are they (Arubans) standing in your way?

MILLER: I don't think they can stand in our way. With the equipment we got and if we have to go in off of Venezuela. Whereever we need to go into, we've got the equipment. In fact they are more than welcome to be on the ship with us. The ships that we are taking over are a 265 foot ship and a 340 foot ship which have all the latest technology on it. In fact the owner of this company, Louis Shaeffer of Superior Offshore International, Louis called Dave Holloway up about two months ago when I was at Louis' house. He said "Mr Holloway, I'm going to promise you something, if your daughter is in a metal container out there in that water, we are going to bring her home."


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 08:07:27 PM
I believe Dateline edited the video to create the outcome they were told to create.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Bladerunner on December 05, 2008, 08:07:49 PM
Here is a sequence of screenshots I captured of the cage video/photos, if someone can pull them over that would be great.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2664.360


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 05, 2008, 08:09:00 PM
Why is the floor of the cage discolored like there was a firm body (not just bones) left there?????


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:09:30 PM
SS - that's not 13 minutes it's 4 minutes later.  15:39 vs. 15:43



Thanks Klaas - and I'm an educator.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Will some-one please show me the January 2008 date?...TIA



January 7th


SS...With Tim? Please!




I think that's Blonde's photograph.  The January 7th cage shots are all that I have.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 08:10:45 PM
Remember Tim thought it was a skull at first and it was not until much later that he knew it wasn't.  He even told Dave how positive he was and then he and Dave were contacted by Marco to come to Nicaragua, etc.  So his being there on that date doesn't implicate Tim Miller in anything!



No.  I think Tim Miller was deceived.  I believe Tim was a pawn in an endeavor that was never about justice for Natalee Holloway ... a pawn used to raise fund for this endeavor through his well known credible organization call Texas Equusearch.

Once Tim Miller observed the ROV image and ... was convinced there was a skull in that cage ... damage control was where it was at.  As Kyle stated in an email to Kermit ... Tim was now a liability.

Janet

______

Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008


And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
<snipped>

Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."  

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007


COLBY:  Tim, why are they (Arubans) standing in your way?

MILLER: I don't think they can stand in our way. With the equipment we got and if we have to go in off of Venezuela. Whereever we need to go into, we've got the equipment. In fact they are more than welcome to be on the ship with us. The ships that we are taking over are a 265 foot ship and a 340 foot ship which have all the latest technology on it. In fact the owner of this company, Louis Shaeffer of Superior Offshore International, Louis called Dave Holloway up about two months ago when I was at Louis' house. He said "Mr Holloway, I'm going to promise you something, if your daughter is in a metal container out there in that water, we are going to bring her home."

Absolutely.  Tim knew what he saw in the cage.  The diver's signal was bullshit and Tim said that.  He was then sent away from Aruba while the Aruban's cleared the cage of all evidence. 

However, just because we have discovered this today doesn't mean that Tim and the family didn't know this months ago.  I still think they figured it out, but probably after it was too late to recover Natalee's remains.  But they know.  And they have the evidence that Aruba continues to cover up 3 1/2 years later.  They will get justice.  They may not be able to take Natalee home, but she will have justice.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:11:26 PM
I believe Dateline edited the video to create the outcome they were told to create.




I don't think Dateline had to edit anything.  I think they were using a copy of the ROV footage which never showed the left side of the cage.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 08:11:56 PM
Here is a sequence of screenshots I captured of the cage video/photos, if someone can pull them over that would be great.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2664.360


Here are all the screen shots/photos of the cage in chronological order.

I believe the last photo here shows the divers retrieving items from the cage. If you watch the film it is clearer as the camera is panning to the right and blurs the screen capture. It appears there is a lot of cloudiness coming from the ocean floor, which is something you can see in other parts fo the video. And I agree with others, the white item on the top of the cage--whatever it was, was collected.

*If this post is something we shouldn't get into I appologize and just delete it*


12/29/07 - 17:32
(http://i26.tinypic.com/dzw0au.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:41
(http://i32.tinypic.com/3149vlx.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:47
(http://i32.tinypic.com/2v1wabq.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:56a
(http://i27.tinypic.com/f380us.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:56b
(http://i28.tinypic.com/t6xu1i.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57a
(http://i29.tinypic.com/2n0itzb.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57b
(http://i26.tinypic.com/111qxhd.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57c
(http://i29.tinypic.com/35ba1ae.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57d
(http://i27.tinypic.com/96hiqs.jpg)
12/29/07 - 17:58
(http://i32.tinypic.com/2ivzp07.jpg)


Day 12/30/07


12/30/07 - 15:38a
(http://i29.tinypic.com/2vmamau.jpg)

12/30/07 - 15:38b
(http://i26.tinypic.com/210c0va.jpg)

12/30/07 - 15:39
(http://i29.tinypic.com/16l9vrn.jpg)

12/30/07 - 15:43
(http://i28.tinypic.com/35lgo77.jpg)



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 08:12:13 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is NOT Tim Miller hand  but he was on the ship
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581




Oh My God, Blonde.  The timestamp next to Tim Millers hand shows 13 minutes later.  Tim was reported to be off the ship on June 7th when the cage contents were taken by ALE, but he was onbaord during this film sequence.  Please someone, say it isn't so.



NOT TIM'S HAND BUT TIM WAS STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY WHO POINTED
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/NOTTIM.jpg)

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 08:13:44 PM
I believe Dateline edited the video to create the outcome they were told to create.




I don't think Dateline had to edit anything.  I think they were using a copy of the ROV footage which never showed the left side of the cage.
But the editing and final version of the Dateline show had to be directed by someone working with the head of this expedition.  The reactions and actions of the people in the show were explained by the audio script that was written with input by the person in charge of this.  John Silvetti.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:15:05 PM
Remember Tim thought it was a skull at first and it was not until much later that he knew it wasn't.  He even told Dave how positive he was and then he and Dave were contacted by Marco to come to Nicaragua, etc.  So his being there on that date doesn't implicate Tim Miller in anything!



No.  I think Tim Miller was deceived.  I believe Tim was a pawn in an endeavor that was never about justice for Natalee Holloway ... a pawn used to raise fund for this endeavor through his well known credible organization call Texas Equusearch.

Once Tim Miller observed the ROV image and ... was convinced there was a skull in that cage ... damage control was where it was at.  As Kyle stated in an email to Kermit ... Tim was now a liability.

Janet

______

Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008


And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
<snipped>

Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."  

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007


COLBY:  Tim, why are they (Arubans) standing in your way?

MILLER: I don't think they can stand in our way. With the equipment we got and if we have to go in off of Venezuela. Whereever we need to go into, we've got the equipment. In fact they are more than welcome to be on the ship with us. The ships that we are taking over are a 265 foot ship and a 340 foot ship which have all the latest technology on it. In fact the owner of this company, Louis Shaeffer of Superior Offshore International, Louis called Dave Holloway up about two months ago when I was at Louis' house. He said "Mr Holloway, I'm going to promise you something, if your daughter is in a metal container out there in that water, we are going to bring her home."




Janet, I really want to believe that you are correct.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 08:15:42 PM
Just for accuracy, I didn't enlarge the colored skull pic. All I did was replace the 100% overall green as best I could with 15% white white mixed in (replacing 100% color green with an 85% green and 15% white mixture). I did that so the green wouldn't mix quite as much with the colors I wanted to replace. I did that for the whole area of the picture containing the shoe and skull. You'll see the rectangle in the big picture.

Then I ran a 10% blue/90% transparent over the stripes on the shoe. On the skull, I ran a 10% tan and 90% transparent over it. The transparent allows the details of the object to come through.

I did crop it, but saved the whole pic as well. Here's both:

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-denim.jpg)

The crop is exactly the same size as in the original.

I didn't try to replace the green with a white component before I started when I wanted to make the trio of spots in the lower left blue, and it wanted to turn pink because of the blend.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 08:17:07 PM
Louis Shaeffer or John Silvetti or both. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 08:17:29 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581
You can view the scene where the divers signal at the link above.  I enlarged the screen to full screen.  When you do this, you can clearly read Tim Miller's lips--he says "Bullshit."  No doubt about it.  Tim doesn't believe the signal and says it is bullshit.

Thanx Azlady."The Game is Fixed".Tim Miller says "Bullshit".Interesting stuff.. ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 08:18:37 PM
Big Hammer,

Wow what a delicious post. I feel like I'm eating steak when I read it.

thanks


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 08:21:14 PM
I have to turn off this computer now.  It's been a long day.  I have a lot to think about.  God bless Beth, Dave, Natalee and everyone who loves her.

Later, Monkeys.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MuffyBee on December 05, 2008, 08:22:40 PM
I have to turn off this computer now.  It's been a long day.  I have a lot to think about.  God bless Beth, Dave, Natalee and everyone who loves her.

Later, Monkeys.

Good night AZLady. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 08:23:37 PM
I have to turn off this computer now.  It's been a long day.  I have a lot to think about.  God bless Beth, Dave, Natalee and everyone who loves her.

Later, Monkeys.

Thanx for all the input.. ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:24:30 PM
Just for accuracy, I didn't enlarge the colored skull pic. All I did was replace the 100% overall green as best I could with 15% white white mixed in (replacing 100% color green with an 85% green and 15% white mixture). I did that so the green wouldn't mix quite as much with the colors I wanted to replace. I did that for the whole area of the picture containing the shoe and skull. You'll see the rectangle in the big picture.

Then I ran a 10% blue/90% transparent over the stripes on the shoe. On the skull, I ran a 10% tan and 90% transparent over it. The transparent allows the details of the object to come through.

I did crop it, but saved the whole pic as well. Here's both:

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-denim.jpg)

The crop is exactly the same size as in the original.

I didn't try to replace the green with a white component before I started when I wanted to make the trio of spots in the lower left blue, and it wanted to turn pink because of the blend.



CBB - you completely lost me with the explanation, but whatever you did, it looks great.  Thanks so much.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 08:25:08 PM
Remember Tim thought it was a skull at first and it was not until much later that he knew it wasn't.  He even told Dave how positive he was and then he and Dave were contacted by Marco to come to Nicaragua, etc.  So his being there on that date doesn't implicate Tim Miller in anything!



No.  I think Tim Miller was deceived.  I believe Tim was a pawn in an endeavor that was never about justice for Natalee Holloway ... a pawn used to raise fund for this endeavor through his well known credible organization call Texas Equusearch.

Once Tim Miller observed the ROV image and ... was convinced there was a skull in that cage ... damage control was where it was at.  As Kyle stated in an email to Kermit ... Tim was now a liability.

Janet

______

Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008


And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
<snipped>

Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."  

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007


COLBY:  Tim, why are they (Arubans) standing in your way?

MILLER: I don't think they can stand in our way. With the equipment we got and if we have to go in off of Venezuela. Whereever we need to go into, we've got the equipment. In fact they are more than welcome to be on the ship with us. The ships that we are taking over are a 265 foot ship and a 340 foot ship which have all the latest technology on it. In fact the owner of this company, Louis Shaeffer of Superior Offshore International, Louis called Dave Holloway up about two months ago when I was at Louis' house. He said "Mr Holloway, I'm going to promise you something, if your daughter is in a metal container out there in that water, we are going to bring her home."

Janet, I really want to believe that you are correct.

SS ... I am a believer in Tim Miller.  He has a good heart.  However ... based on the Natalee Holloway case and the Caylee Marie case ... I have come to realize that this kind man has difficulties decerning the good guys from the bad guys in his associations in regard to justice for the victim.

In the Natalee Holloway case ... Tim has known from very early on the corrupt investigation that the Aruban "powers that be" were not after justice for Natalee Holloway.  He should never have allowed his name or the TES name to be associated with a joint venture where he knew that one of the parties had a conflict of interest.

IMO

Janet



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Hotshot on December 05, 2008, 08:25:52 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)



This is going to be very graphic, but it is one reason why I think that the remains might not have been Natalee, but rather Jalitza or someone else.  Jalitza's body had been prepared for burial which means that she was likely embalmed with her body tissues chemically preserved.  Her body would have been able to be moved, in tact.  Natalee was murdered, possibly dismembered, and reportedly moved several times in the Aruban heat before a final disposal.  Her body would have deteriorated in several days to a point where she would have been difficult to move.  Her body tissue would have started to decay and liquefy.  As with Caylee Anthony, there was certainly insect damage from maggots and beetles.  Insects can devour a human body in just several days.  After just a day or two, it would have been very difficult to move Natalee onboard a boat and then deposit her on the floor of a fish cage unless she was in a closed container.  It would have been like carrying a huge bag of spaghetti.  Her skin would have fallen off with just a touch.  The odor would have been unbearable. It would have been too difficult to put Natalee in that cage unless it was done very shortly after she died.
What if she were still in a bag or tarp as we have seen in the ARU-BAY videos?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 08:26:04 PM
This stinks to high heaven!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 05, 2008, 08:26:56 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/datelinetrapbo2.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/ZEE-datelinetrapbo2.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/2345841784_52614dbecb_ocopy.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/FLAT.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Shoe-water.jpg)




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 08:28:02 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is NOT Tim Miller hand  but he was on the ship
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581




Oh My God, Blonde.  The timestamp next to Tim Millers hand shows 13 minutes later.  Tim was reported to be off the ship on June 7th when the cage contents were taken by ALE, but he was onbaord during this film sequence.  Please someone, say it isn't so.



NOT TIM'S HAND BUT TIM WAS STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY WHO POINTED
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/NOTTIM.jpg)

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Thanks...12/30/2007

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #776 11/19-08  on: November 20, 2008, 08:22:14 PM 

Quote from: Altruist on November 20, 2008, 08:12:12 PM

Blonde, trying to get Kyle to look at your wonderful work in process http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.0, so hopefully he will have some time & be willing to identify who he can so that would take those identifications as addressed & put to rest as fact.  Kyle was there & young enough to have a decent memory of those persons & identify who he does not know, as well.  Any chance that Red could ask Tim Miller to review these photo's as well??????????????????????  Tim Miller may have been on board those days that Kyle was not.

Funny story, tried to view google images when we first started trying to identify Reply 10 of http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.0 & found one photo that looked interesting when I clicked on the photo to show true size guess who's work it was Klaas's creation, who had been copying idiots heads onto bodies in the photo's, laughed til it hurt.

Quote Kyle
Tim Miller was never on the Persistence while I was not on board.  He stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 08:28:40 PM
A Sea Change In The Caribbean

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, December 05, 2008 4:20 PM PT

The Hemisphere: A Russian warship passes through the Panama Canal for the first time since World War II. Is it a mere annoyance or the beginning of a challenge in America's backyard?


Once, the Panama Canal was considered a triumph of American technology and a symbol of American power. Today it's a waterway managed by a Chinese company with links to the People's Liberation Army through which Russian warships pass.

Last Wednesday, Russian Navy spokesman Capt. Igor Dygalo announced that the 554-foot guided missile destroyer Admiral Chabanenko would transit the Panama Canal and arrive at Panama's Pacific port of Balboa for a six-day visit after carrying out naval exercises with the Venezuelan Navy in the Caribbean dubbed "Venrus 2008."

"The only time such an event took place was in 1944 during the Second World War, when four Russian submarines passed through" the canal to help in the battle against Nazi Germany, the Russian embassy in Panama said in a statement.

In his announcement, Capt. Dygalo made a point of referring to the naval base the ship will visit by its former American name — Rodman. Rodman naval base was the naval hub for all U.S. naval activities in the water around South America. It was turned over to Panama in 1999.

The Chabanenko participated in maneuvers that included an air defense exercise in which a Venezuelan Sukhoi jet fighter simulated an attack on vessels that included three Venezuelan frigates, such as the F-21 "Mariscal Sucre," and an exercise to spot, pursue and detain an enemy vessel.

In that exercise, the commander of the Russian squadron captained a Venezuelan frigate while Venezuelan Rear Admiral Louis Morales acted as captain of the nuclear-powered Kirov-class heavy missile cruiser Peter the Great.

It is one of the largest and most powerful warships in the world. It is armed with 20 SS-N-19 "Shipwreck" long-range anti-ship missiles and 500 surface-to-air missiles. She and her sister ships were sailing in an area where nine out of every 14 barrels of imported oil, even some Alaskan oil, must transit. At last report, it showed very little rust.

U.S. officials have openly mocked the show of force, saying the Russian fleet is a shadow of its former self. "Are they accompanied by tugboats this time?" U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack joked to reporters in Washington.

That may be true, but it is also true we no longer have President Reagan's 600-ship navy. We have very capable ships, but not nearly enough to meet our commitments stretching from the Taiwan Strait to the Persian Gulf and beyond.

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy decided to re-form the Fourth Fleet, disbanded in 1953, to patrol the Caribbean. But retired Rear Admiral Joseph Callo has called the Fourth Fleet "mostly a paper command, with tangible military assets to be added 'as needed.'" Our currently undersized and shrinking navy would have to draw from critical areas such as the Middle East and the Western Pacific.

Venezuela is using money from its oil exports to the U.S. to buy significant amounts of Russian weaponry, nearly $4 billion worth, including 100,000 AK-103 and AK-104 assault rifles, a dozen Mi-17 military helicopters and 24 SU-30MK fighter jets.

It is also negotiating a multibillion-dollar, multiyear contract to buy four Kilo-class diesel submarines and four state-of-the-art Amur submarines.

A potential threat is also building in the skies. Venezuela is expanding its small air force, and on Sept. 10 a pair of supersonic and nuclear-capable Russian Tu-160 "Blackjack" bombers landed in Venezuela, ostensibly to conduct patrols over neutral waters in the Caribbean and the Pacific. They were escorted by U.S. aircraft all the way, but the potential presence of Russian bombers in the Caribbean if that phone rings at 3 a.m. seriously complicates things.

Last year, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov announced that Russia was embarking on a five-year military modernization plan costing $189 billion. According to Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments, the new and improved Russian navy will eventually include up to six new nuclear-powered aircraft carriers.

The Russians are great chess players, a game of patience and strategy, and they've just moved their queen.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 08:28:59 PM
This stinks to high heaven!

When you get a chance Wreck.Watch the Dive video from dateline and give your opinion on what Tim Miller says??AzLady has a link a page or two back.Look forward to your input..TIA


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 08:29:30 PM
I have to turn off this computer now.  It's been a long day.  I have a lot to think about.  God bless Beth, Dave, Natalee and everyone who loves her.

Later, Monkeys.

AZLady

GOOD NIGHT!

Janet
5:30 PM PT


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 08:29:53 PM
 ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

LOL@SOS!

It's hard to believe I can loose somebody on anything technical, but, it only takes making several hundred avatars to discover some tricks!

The point is, I know when you distort something on photoshop. I didn't distort anything. I didn't sharpen, blur, add to or take anything away from the shapes or details. I just colored and made sure that the details of what I colored remained intact.  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 08:31:03 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 05, 2008, 08:32:23 PM
Just a few thoughts here -

What if the skull and news story were part of an Aruban 2007 end of year "we found her and it's ok to visit Aruba" promotion?

Who cares if it was her?  I think "it looks like a skull" and other things were used to suggest that Natalee is returned to her parents.

Is the latest coverage/JVDS story/no body/no case stuff and Jan VDS story part of an Aruban 2008 end of year "we found her" or "we found the coverup"  and it's ok to visit Aruba promotion?

Will the case be closed at the end of the year?  Will anyone with their fingers in the pot ever be charged with a crime related to this case?  A coverup?  Conflict of interest?  Nepotism?  Cronyism?  Favoritism?

jmho




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Red on December 05, 2008, 08:35:04 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:35:25 PM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is NOT Tim Miller hand  but he was on the ship
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581




Oh My God, Blonde.  The timestamp next to Tim Millers hand shows 13 minutes later.  Tim was reported to be off the ship on June 7th when the cage contents were taken by ALE, but he was onbaord during this film sequence.  Please someone, say it isn't so.



NOT TIM'S HAND BUT TIM WAS STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY WHO POINTED
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/NOTTIM.jpg)

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Thanks...12/30/2007

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #776 11/19-08  on: November 20, 2008, 08:22:14 PM 

Quote from: Altruist on November 20, 2008, 08:12:12 PM

Blonde, trying to get Kyle to look at your wonderful work in process http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.0, so hopefully he will have some time & be willing to identify who he can so that would take those identifications as addressed & put to rest as fact.  Kyle was there & young enough to have a decent memory of those persons & identify who he does not know, as well.  Any chance that Red could ask Tim Miller to review these photo's as well??????????????????????  Tim Miller may have been on board those days that Kyle was not.

Funny story, tried to view google images when we first started trying to identify Reply 10 of http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.0 & found one photo that looked interesting when I clicked on the photo to show true size guess who's work it was Klaas's creation, who had been copying idiots heads onto bodies in the photo's, laughed til it hurt.

Quote Kyle
Tim Miller was never on the Persistence while I was not on board.  He stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.






Mum - it sounds like they sent him off to Nicaragua with 24 or 48 hours afterwards. I understand now why Kyle referred to Tim Miller as a liability.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 08:35:43 PM
Okay...I'll put this out there again...

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 on 12/30/07 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 on 12/30/07 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 on 12/30/07 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Were there two ROV's or two camera's????????


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 08:37:09 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

Aw, shucks. I was READY TO RUUUUMBLE!!!

 :2redface:


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 08:37:57 PM
Okay...I'll put this out there again...

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 on 12/30/07 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 on 12/30/07 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 on 12/30/07 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Were there two ROV's or two camera's????????

That's a great question for Kermit!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 08:40:07 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:41:13 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.




Red - do you have any comments or words of wisdom about what we have found with the Persistence and cage photographs?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 08:42:21 PM
Red,

I really believe he knows the truth, Tacopina, and he has to know that he can only rationalize this for so long. He has his own issues going on there is no doubt.

These type of defense lawyer's do have a come to Jesus moment in their lives. I've seen many burn out after awhile defending the guilty. It gets away from you and drains the soul.

When Tacopina has a meltdown, he's angry with himself. His own guilt.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 08:42:34 PM
Guess we can't call in to Dana if Taco doesn't like "directness", huh?   ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 08:44:40 PM
I'd be nice if they'd let me call Tacky.

I'd ask how Simpleton and Sociopath are these days.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 08:47:18 PM
I'd be nice if they'd let me call Tacky.

I'd ask how Simpleton and Sociopath are these days.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 08:47:35 PM
Okay...I'll put this out there again...

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 on 12/30/07 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 on 12/30/07 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 on 12/30/07 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Were there two ROV's or two camera's????????

That's a great question for Kermit!

Well, I'm a part-time monkey poster (I lurk more often than I post) and this time sequence seems more questionable than many things that have garnered pages of monkey posts.

How was that time sequence possible?  When you compare the quality of the 15:40 pic with the others it seems as though the others were from a video image and the 15:40 was from a camera.  Who would have been using a camera down there at that time?  Or, were there two ROV's?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:52:12 PM
Okay...I'll put this out there again...

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 on 12/30/07 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 on 12/30/07 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 on 12/30/07 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Were there two ROV's or two camera's????????

That's a great question for Kermit!

Well, I'm a part-time monkey poster (I lurk more often than I post) and this time sequence seems more questionable than many things that have garnered pages of monkey posts.

How was that time sequence possible?  When you compare the quality of the 15:40 pic with the others it seems as though the others were from a video image and the 15:40 was from a camera.  Who would have been using a camera down there at that time?  Or, were there two ROV's?




I think there was only one ROV onboard, so what you are saying would probably indicate a fourth diver or photographer.  I am not knowledgeable about cameras.  What is really important are the timestamps on those photographs because it places everyone both on the ship and in the ocean at strategic places.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 08:52:22 PM
Frank,
I'm not sure if this is the picture you were looking for or not?


(http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg211/scaled.php?server=211&filename=karinjanssen1wa8.jpg&xsize=578&ysize=480)
Karin Janssen


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 08:53:47 PM

Okay...I'll put this out there again...

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 on 12/30/07 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 on 12/30/07 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 on 12/30/07 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Were there two ROV's or two camera's????????
[/quote]

That's a great question for Kermit!
[/quote]

Well, I'm a part-time monkey poster (I lurk more often than I post) and this time sequence seems more questionable than many things that have garnered pages of monkey posts.

How was that time sequence possible?  When you compare the quality of the 15:40 pic with the others it seems as though the others were from a video image and the 15:40 was from a camera.  Who would have been using a camera down there at that time?  Or, were there two ROV's?
[/quote]

If you look at the pictures of the divers, one is using a camera.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 08:53:55 PM
Okay...I'll put this out there again...

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 on 12/30/07 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 on 12/30/07 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 on 12/30/07 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Were there two ROV's or two camera's????????

That's a great question for Kermit!

I honestly do not know the answer to that. I wasn't there.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 08:54:30 PM
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/Pretzer120508.jpg)

Click the link below:
http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/radio.m3u


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 08:54:34 PM

Okay...I'll put this out there again...

How can the camera shooting the pic at 15:40 on 12/30/07 (showing the possible remains in the cage) be the same camera that took the pic at 15:39 on 12/30/07 showing the thumbs down and at 15:43 on 12/30/07 (where the man's hand is pointing to the screen) showing what appears to be the divers heading back?

Could that camera have swung away from the divers and around to the left side of the cage and taken that pic in 60 seconds?


Were there two ROV's or two camera's????????

That's a great question for Kermit!
[/quote]

Well, I'm a part-time monkey poster (I lurk more often than I post) and this time sequence seems more questionable than many things that have garnered pages of monkey posts.

How was that time sequence possible?  When you compare the quality of the 15:40 pic with the others it seems as though the others were from a video image and the 15:40 was from a camera.  Who would have been using a camera down there at that time?  Or, were there two ROV's?
[/quote]

If you look at the pictures of the divers, one is using a camera.
[/quote]

I think Kyle said that the Aruban divers did take photographs.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 08:56:50 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 08:57:06 PM
Does Taco know he's coming on Scared Monkey's Radio or does he only know he's going to be talking to Dana?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 08:58:34 PM
thanks but that's not the one.

You know, how obvious is it now that Janssen had to be directly involved in the coverup?

10 days, she's the prosecutor and you have 2 innocent guys you're charging and the only evidence is the word of Joran van der sloot?

Not possible.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 08:58:46 PM
Kermit - can facial reconstruction be done on any of those skull photographs?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 08:59:03 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Kermit.Have you watched the Dateline episode of the dive??And if so i believe Tim Miller says "Bullshit" when they give him what is purported to be the "NO" sign.TIA for the input...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 08:59:23 PM
Gottenbro boat

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2700/image534lr0.jpg)
Dave said: "On the night after Natalie disappeared, three out of four fisherman's huts on the beach near where she and Joran allegedly went were burglarized. Missing from one of the huts was a knife and a cage used to trap fish. In an e-mailI had received, someone discussing the cages stated that a lock was broken,and the net was used to dump Natalie 2 miles offshore." (p.76-77)

kyle stated: "Richardson was onboard the Persistence several times and attended the meetings on the boat. You may see a glimpse of him on the Dateline video in the survey room along with Mos standing over my shoulder


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 09:00:10 PM
Connect the dots.

Janet
_________

Oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #776 11/19-08
« Reply #705 on: November 20, 2008, 11:22:14 PM »


Tim Miller was never on the Persistence while I was not on board.  He stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4153.msg551304#msg551304


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »


Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


The search for Natalee Holloway

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


Dave Holloway: They represent heroes to me.

To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI. For the Holloways, though, another wild ride began.

This bizarre story originated in the central American nation of Nicaragua.

It happened last month, when Natalee’s father Dave received a message from a man who called himself Marcos. He said he had important information about where they could find Natalee's body.

Dave Holloway: He said, "I’d done some wrongs in my past," and he said, "This is my way of making all of my wrongs and all of my sins and doing something right."

Dave was skeptical, but the phone and e-mail messages continued.

In them was a wild tale involving drug runners who said that on the night Natalee disappeared someone had paid them to take her body and dump it at sea.

They agreed but instead they took her remains with them to Nicaragua and hid them on a remote strip of the Atlantic coast.

Dave Holloway: It was a little bit far-fetched for me.

Chris Hansen: What did he want in return?

Dave Holloway: He told us he didn't want anything. And that is what part I started believing in this guy. I said we've got a reward out here.

In January, Dave Holloway asked Tim Miller to head to Nicaragua to arrange for a meeting...and to Miller's surprise, Marcos showed up.

Marcos: I didn't live an, um, exemplary life. I did a lot of wrong things and maybe this is just one way of trying to even up the, the score a little bit.

Marcos wouldn't allow his face to appear on camera, but he agreed to talk to Miller and even officials from the US embassy.

Chris Hansen: And what was the person from the embassy's take?

Tim Miller: The person from the embassy said, "You know what? I think we may have something here."

Together, Miller and Marcos came up with a plan: Marcos would take a GPS receiver to the location and leave it there. Miller, accompanied by local officials would follow the signal to the location and begin to dig.

The next morning Miller's phone rang. It was Marcos. The search, he said, had been a success. But there had been a change in plans. He had the body and would bring it to them in Managua.

Marcos: Tonight before the sun is up, we will be in Managua.

Tim Miller: He says that she was wrapped in a blanket and her body fell apart. He said, "but we had to put her in two ice chests." And he actually said, "call Mr. Holloway right now and tell him I’ve got Natalee."

Chris Hansen: So what do you do?

Tim Miller: I did not call Dave Holloway to say I have the body.

Chris Hansen: You've been down that road before.

Tim Miller: I’ve been down that road before.

Chris Hansen: Did you believe him?

Tim Miller: This time, I believed him.

But after waiting all night for Marcos to appear at the arranged location -- nothing.

Marcos never appeared again and Tim Miller and Dave Holloway are convinced Marcos pulled off an incredibly cruel hoax.

Dave Holloway: How would somebody stoop so low to do something like this?

Chris Hansen: How hurtful is that, when somebody does that to you?

Dave Holloway: Very hurtful. In fact, that was -- it's a wonders I’ve not had a major heart attack and died, you know.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:01:38 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Kermit.Have you watched the Dateline episode of the dive??And if so i believe Tim Miller says "Bullshit" when they give him what is purported to be the "NO" sign.TIA for the input...

You know it's been awhile since I watched it. I'd have to listen to it again. I've honestly been investigating
other parts of the case.

I know that Tim Miller agreed with Kyle about the Arubans and not trusting them.
But I feel that Kyle just didn't know what to do, since John Silvetti is the boss.




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 05, 2008, 09:03:35 PM
Is it 6 yet, all I'm getting is music.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 09:03:51 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Kermit.Have you watched the Dateline episode of the dive??And if so i believe Tim Miller says "Bullshit" when they give him what is purported to be the "NO" sign.TIA for the input...


Keepthefaith...According to Kyle there was no "NO" sign...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 09:04:08 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Kermit.Have you watched the Dateline episode of the dive??And if so i believe Tim Miller says "Bullshit" when they give him what is purported to be the "NO" sign.TIA for the input...

You know it's been awhile since I watched it. I'd have to listen to it again. I've honestly been investigating
other parts of the case.

I know that Tim Miller agreed with Kyle about the Arubans and not trusting them.
But I feel that Kyle just didn't know what to do, since John Silvetti is the boss.




When you get the opportunity Azlady posted the direct link to the dive  apage or two back and blew it up.Looks like Tim said bullshit when he got the "NO" sign..Let me know when you review..Look forward to hearing back.Have a great weekend!! ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 09:04:09 PM

Well, I'm a part-time monkey poster (I lurk more often than I post) and this time sequence seems more questionable than many things that have garnered pages of monkey posts.

How was that time sequence possible?  When you compare the quality of the 15:40 pic with the others it seems as though the others were from a video image and the 15:40 was from a camera.  Who would have been using a camera down there at that time?  Or, were there two ROV's?




I think there was only one ROV onboard, so what you are saying would probably indicate a fourth diver or photographer.  I am not knowledgeable about cameras.  What is really important are the timestamps on those photographs because it places everyone both on the ship and in the ocean at strategic places.

With all due monkey respect, I think all questions about these pics are important based on the last few days of discussions.  The more I think about it, it is making a bit more sense that if there was another person down there taking pics while everyone else was focused on the divers signaling to the ROV, that would explain why some people never saw them.

Now we have the thumbs down and ALE sending something to the FBI that did not match up with anything Natalee...yet we have that 15:40 pic that appears to show human remains.

Also, the date and time stamp on the 15:40 look like the same font and size as the other pics.

This is troubling to me.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 09:04:54 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Kermit.Have you watched the Dateline episode of the dive??And if so i believe Tim Miller says "Bullshit" when they give him what is purported to be the "NO" sign.TIA for the input...

Tim Miller/Tim Trahan
Dateline
February 22, 2008


Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."

<snipped>

(On the boat) Tim Miller: Divers coming up right now. I don't know it looked as promising today as it did last night or before.

Miller: Nothing?

Trahan: No.

Chris Hansen: That had to be a crushing blow.

Tim Miller: It was a crushing blow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 05, 2008, 09:05:07 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Kermit.Have you watched the Dateline episode of the dive??And if so i believe Tim Miller says "Bullshit" when they give him what is purported to be the "NO" sign.TIA for the input...


Keepthefaith...According to Kyle there was no "NO" sign...

What was the thumbs-down to mean???


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:05:26 PM
Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »

Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748



Caps posted:
#2830 on: February 28, 2008, 12:33:01 AM
.The sneaker is there....where is the sneaker is the remains
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2830.900



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 05, 2008, 09:06:01 PM
Red,

I really believe he knows the truth, Tacopina, and he has to know that he can only rationalize this for so long. He has his own issues going on there is no doubt.

These type of defense lawyer's do have a come to Jesus moment in their lives. I've seen many burn out after awhile defending the guilty. It gets away from you and drains the soul.

When Tacopina has a meltdown, he's angry with himself. His own guilt.

I wonder if Joe T. ever looks at his daughters and wonders about the day when some boy will knock on his door and announce his intention to date one of Joe's daughters.

Will he see the faces of his clients in those young men?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 09:06:02 PM

I think Kyle said that the Aruban divers did take photographs.



If the Aruban divers took pics would who would have had copies of them?  OE?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Red on December 05, 2008, 09:06:50 PM
Red,

I really believe he knows the truth, Tacopina, and he has to know that he can only rationalize this for so long. He has his own issues going on there is no doubt.

These type of defense lawyer's do have a come to Jesus moment in their lives. I've seen many burn out after awhile defending the guilty. It gets away from you and drains the soul.

When Tacopina has a meltdown, he's angry with himself. His own guilt.

Frank, I would tend to agree.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:07:07 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.

It's Dana's charm that lured him like bee to honey.



Kermit.Have you watched the Dateline episode of the dive??And if so i believe Tim Miller says "Bullshit" when they give him what is purported to be the "NO" sign.TIA for the input...

You know it's been awhile since I watched it. I'd have to listen to it again. I've honestly been investigating
other parts of the case.

I know that Tim Miller agreed with Kyle about the Arubans and not trusting them.
But I feel that Kyle just didn't know what to do, since John Silvetti is the boss.




When you get the opportunity Azlady posted the direct link to the dive  apage or two back and blew it up.Looks like Tim said bullshit when he got the "NO" sign..Let me know when you review..Look forward to hearing back.Have a great weekend!! ::MonkeyDance::

Okay thank you. I'll view it again.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 09:07:13 PM
Tacky's hard to hear


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:07:54 PM

I think Kyle said that the Aruban divers did take photographs.



If the Aruban divers took pics would who would have had copies of them?  OE?

Dolph Richardson was in charge. So I would think he would.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:09:21 PM
Kermit - can facial reconstruction be done on any of those skull photographs?

I don't know. For me, when Kyle showed me the photo of Natalee from the beach inside that cage based on his expertise in measuring, it was chilling.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 09:09:37 PM
The Dana Pretzer Show On Scared Monkeys Radio - Listen LIVE Tonight At 9PM Eastern - “Are Defense Attorneys Monsters, Or Are They Just Doing Their Job?”
 
Tonight, Dana welcomes the lawyers of some of American society’s most deplorable public figures - at least according to the media.


Attorney Joel Brodsky (regarding client Drew Peterson)
Attorney Mark Geragos (regarding client Scott Peterson)
Attorney Joe Tacopina (regarding client Joran Van der Sloot)
Assistant District Attorney for Los Angeles County, Robin Sax
In tonight’s second segment, Melody Schmidt discusses the death of her son Joshua Whittier and asks if Joshua’s death is Florida’s “best kept secret”.


LISTEN LIVE TONIGHT AT 9PM EASTERN

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/12/05/the-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-are-defense-attorneys-monsters-or-are-they-just-doing-their-job/



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:10:08 PM
Does Taco know he's coming on Scared Monkey's Radio or does he only know he's going to be talking to Dana?

He'll know when he hears DANA give the MONKEY Shout-out!

heh heh



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:11:24 PM
Just for accuracy, I didn't enlarge the colored skull pic. All I did was replace the 100% overall green as best I could with 15% white white mixed in (replacing 100% color green with an 85% green and 15% white mixture). I did that so the green wouldn't mix quite as much with the colors I wanted to replace. I did that for the whole area of the picture containing the shoe and skull. You'll see the rectangle in the big picture.

Then I ran a 10% blue/90% transparent over the stripes on the shoe. On the skull, I ran a 10% tan and 90% transparent over it. The transparent allows the details of the object to come through.

I did crop it, but saved the whole pic as well. Here's both:

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-denim.jpg)

The crop is exactly the same size as in the original.

I didn't try to replace the green with a white component before I started when I wanted to make the trio of spots in the lower left blue, and it wanted to turn pink because of the blend.

Gall dang it CBB that is an amazing photo.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 05, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -  on: March 03, 2008, 08:34:25 PM
 
To clarify the thumb down issue:

-It was agreed immediately before the 30-Dec dive that 2 thumbs up (by Tim Trahan) meant positive ID on Natalee from something conclusive.
-One thumb up was to indicate human remains

-There was no set signal pre-dive for anything but the above scenarios.
 
By Tim's own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive. His signal indicated an inconclusive observation referring to the object said by some to be a skull, a hardened sponge by others...

What you can't see is immediately before Tim approached the trap opening, a large skate stirred up sediment reducing visibility.

The quick signal came because the dive time was nearly up .


Another post of Kyle's on page 23 or 24...

Goodnight!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kermit on December 05, 2008, 09:12:17 PM
I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/Case/cage-shoe-color.jpg)



This is going to be very graphic, but it is one reason why I think that the remains might not have been Natalee, but rather Jalitza or someone else.  Jalitza's body had been prepared for burial which means that she was likely embalmed with her body tissues chemically preserved.  Her body would have been able to be moved, in tact.  Natalee was murdered, possibly dismembered, and reportedly moved several times in the Aruban heat before a final disposal.  Her body would have deteriorated in several days to a point where she would have been difficult to move.  Her body tissue would have started to decay and liquefy.  As with Caylee Anthony, there was certainly insect damage from maggots and beetles.  Insects can devour a human body in just several days.  After just a day or two, it would have been very difficult to move Natalee onboard a boat and then deposit her on the floor of a fish cage unless she was in a closed container.  It would have been like carrying a huge bag of spaghetti.  Her skin would have fallen off with just a touch.  The odor would have been unbearable. It would have been too difficult to put Natalee in that cage unless it was done very shortly after she died.
What if she were still in a bag or tarp as we have seen in the ARU-BAY videos?

There was a blue tarp about, I think Kyle said 60 ft from the trap.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 09:12:33 PM
Does Taco know he's coming on Scared Monkey's Radio or does he only know he's going to be talking to Dana?

He'll know when he hears DANA give the MONKEY Shout-out!

heh heh



 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::cartwheel::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 05, 2008, 09:12:38 PM
Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »

Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748



Caps posted:
#2830 on: February 28, 2008, 12:33:01 AM
.The sneaker is there....where is the sneaker is the remains
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2830.900



What was the date when when the first images of the cage was posted on the internet by Robin Holloway?

Thank you

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Red on December 05, 2008, 09:13:47 PM
Does Taco know he's coming on Scared Monkey's Radio or does he only know he's going to be talking to Dana?

He'll know when he hears DANA give the MONKEY Shout-out!

heh heh

Some how I do not see Joe Tacopina having a beer with Red.  ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 09:17:22 PM
Does Taco know he's coming on Scared Monkey's Radio or does he only know he's going to be talking to Dana?

He'll know when he hears DANA give the MONKEY Shout-out!

heh heh

Some how I do not see Joe Tacopina having a beer with Red.  ::MonkeyCool::

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/funny-monkey-4.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 09:21:55 PM
Ask him if he's ever represented a client he knew was guilty.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 09:24:36 PM
He's represented a client that I know is guilty.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 05, 2008, 09:38:54 PM
Here is a sequence of screenshots I captured of the cage video/photos, if someone can pull them over that would be great.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2664.360

Here are all the screen shots/photos of the cage in chronological order.

I believe the last photo here shows the divers retrieving items from the cage. If you watch the film it is clearer as the camera is panning to the right and blurs the screen capture. It appears there is a lot of cloudiness coming from the ocean floor, which is something you can see in other parts fo the video. And I agree with others, the white item on the top of the cage--whatever it was, was collected.

*If this post is something we shouldn't get into I appologize and just delete it*


12/29/07 - 17:32
(http://i26.tinypic.com/dzw0au.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:41
(http://i32.tinypic.com/3149vlx.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:47
(http://i32.tinypic.com/2v1wabq.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:56a
(http://i27.tinypic.com/f380us.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:56b
(http://i28.tinypic.com/t6xu1i.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57a
(http://i29.tinypic.com/2n0itzb.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57b
(http://i26.tinypic.com/111qxhd.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57c
(http://i29.tinypic.com/35ba1ae.jpg)

12/29/07 - 17:57d
(http://i27.tinypic.com/96hiqs.jpg)
12/29/07 - 17:58
(http://i32.tinypic.com/2ivzp07.jpg)


Day 12/30/07


12/30/07 - 15:38a
(http://i29.tinypic.com/2vmamau.jpg)

12/30/07 - 15:38b
(http://i26.tinypic.com/210c0va.jpg)

12/30/07 - 15:39
(http://i29.tinypic.com/16l9vrn.jpg)

12/30/07 - 15:43
(http://i28.tinypic.com/35lgo77.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 09:45:19 PM
This stinks to high heaven!

When you get a chance Wreck.Watch the Dive video from dateline and give your opinion on what Tim Miller says??AzLady has a link a page or two back.Look forward to your input..TIA
Clearly saying "Bullshit" -- just me, but if it was mere "disappointment" at not finding anything -- I would cuss differently. "Bullshit" implies "doubt" at the findings. Simply saying "Shit!" or "F_ _ _" implies "disapointment".


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 09:46:58 PM
Blonde - the network stamp is on both of those dates.  Did they film two days in a row?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Red on December 05, 2008, 09:47:08 PM
He's represented a client that I know is guilty.

I may have to do a little rebuttal at the end of Dana's show to the defense attys.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kat_Gram on December 05, 2008, 09:47:30 PM
They were right there, so close, yet it got buggered.
It should have been conclusively YES or NO, not leaving this room for this doubt. I
waffle back and forth. Everything about the search was so scientific. Everything was calculated. Except .. the actual recovery of whatever was in that cage. Does that seem strange to anyone ? So many experts on that boat,the latest in equipment. Leave it to humans with their own stupid reasons for doing this.
..
Why was Tim a liability at that point ?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 09:52:01 PM
He's represented a client that I know is guilty.

I may have to do a little rebuttal at the end of Dana's show to the defense attys.

 ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::

You go, Red!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 09:54:21 PM
This stinks to high heaven!

When you get a chance Wreck.Watch the Dive video from dateline and give your opinion on what Tim Miller says??AzLady has a link a page or two back.Look forward to your input..TIA
Clearly saying "Bullshit" -- just me, but if it was mere "disappointment" at not finding anything -- I would cuss differently. "Bullshit" implies "doubt" at the findings. Simply saying "Shit!" or "F_ _ _" implies "disapointment".




I agree with you Wreck and I wonder if it was planned that they would attempt to dupe Tim.  If he wasn't buying into the explanation, maybe this was the reason why he was shipped off to Nicaragua.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kat_Gram on December 05, 2008, 09:55:35 PM
Oh, forget it. Was bad words.
Defense attorneys in Canada do not go on TV and discuss evidence like they do in the USA. They are never elevated to " stars "  on Network shows. That's my beef of the day. They write books or comment afterwards but never try to influence the public in any way or fashion pre trial. Our way of doing things is similar to England. Except for Quebec and who knows what they do.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 05, 2008, 10:01:59 PM
This is like Hamlet....the play within the play.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 10:02:13 PM
Hi Red!!!!!    ::cartwheel::

Make the dog drink the first sip of yours, Red, if Taco brings you the beer.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 10:03:41 PM
Hi Red!!!!!    ::cartwheel::

Make the dog drink the first sip of yours, Red, if Taco brings you the beer.

Correction: Make Taco's dog drink the first sip, Red, if Taco brings you the beer.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 10:11:16 PM
Jossy Mansur on Dana tonight.

And Joe Tacopina?

I hope they get on together, now that would be interesting.

If that were happening RED would be in on that party call.

However, that will never happen as Joe does not like confrontation with people who know the case. If you ever notice all of his interviews after a couple months into case, he was a solo.

Think he would really want to defend his client against those that knew the case inside and out and who had just as much inside info as he?

Not happening.

Personally, I find it stunning that he agreed to come on.
I angered Dana - but I told him I didn't want to hear Tacopina if YOU were not on to debate him (like you have wanted for 2+ years)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 05, 2008, 10:14:43 PM
Kermit - can facial reconstruction be done on any of those skull photographs?

I don't know. For me, when Kyle showed me the photo of Natalee from the beach inside that cage based on his expertise in measuring, it was chilling.

It was chilling for me too.  It would have been chilling to see photo's of other disappeared people in that cage as well.  

It is a reminder that when you say good-bye to your loved ones, there is always the possibility you may never see them again.

Natalee Holloway

Max DeVries

Amy Bradley


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: crazybabyborg on December 05, 2008, 10:15:44 PM
THANK YOU, RED!!   ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 10:16:57 PM
Who was the primary connection to Marcos in Venezuela?  When did Marcos enter the scene with his information about Natalee on the beach?  Who would have made the arrangements for Tim to connect with the embassy and travel to Nicaragua?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 10:18:46 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:23:00 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

With our luck they'd agree to come on the show but only speak in Dutch  ::MonkeyHaHa::  We'd need our Dutch posters to translate again  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 05, 2008, 10:24:07 PM
Goodnight everyone.  I'm really a little rattled right now and I think that I need to step back and let everything soak in.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 10:25:57 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

Probably better have them on separate shows though!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

:smt014 :smt075


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:26:19 PM
Who was the primary connection to Marcos in Venezuela?  When did Marcos enter the scene with his information about Natalee on the beach?  Who would have made the arrangements for Tim to connect with the embassy and travel to Nicaragua?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

(snipped)

To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI. For the Holloways, though, another wild ride began.

This bizarre story originated in the central American nation of Nicaragua.

It happened last month, when Natalee’s father Dave received a message from a man who called himself Marcos. He said he had important information about where they could find Natalee's body.

Dave Holloway: He said, "I’d done some wrongs in my past," and he said, "This is my way of making all of my wrongs and all of my sins and doing something right."

Dave was skeptical, but the phone and e-mail messages continued.

In them was a wild tale involving drug runners who said that on the night Natalee disappeared someone had paid them to take her body and dump it at sea.

They agreed but instead they took her remains with them to Nicaragua and hid them on a remote strip of the Atlantic coast.

(snipped)

More at the link above


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 10:26:24 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

With our luck they'd agree to come on the show but only speak in Dutch  ::MonkeyHaHa::  We'd need our Dutch posters to translate again  ::MonkeyHaHa::

yeah right, maybe i uderstand dutch, its like canadian eh :-)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:26:53 PM
Nite SS


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 10:27:35 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

With our luck they'd agree to come on the show but only speak in Dutch  ::MonkeyHaHa::  We'd need our Dutch posters to translate again  ::MonkeyHaHa::

True!    ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: trimmonthelake on December 05, 2008, 10:27:53 PM
 Thanks Dana...Thanks Red.  ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:27:56 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

With our luck they'd agree to come on the show but only speak in Dutch  ::MonkeyHaHa::  We'd need our Dutch posters to translate again  ::MonkeyHaHa::

yeah right, maybe i uderstand dutch, its like canadian eh :-)

I've heard of French Canadian but not Dutch Canadian  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:28:21 PM
GREAT SHOW DANA!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 10:28:24 PM
Goodnite, SS!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kat_Gram on December 05, 2008, 10:30:13 PM
eh ?
Oh well Dana have a blue brewski & wear your touque with the Leafs emblem.
I'm having a Tim's. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Dana on December 05, 2008, 10:30:27 PM
GREAT SHOW DANA!

thanks
do you mean thursdays show or tonights ?

 ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 10:30:49 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:31:50 PM
GREAT SHOW DANA!

thanks
do you mean thursdays show or tonights ?

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

LOL  ::MonkeyHaHa:: 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 10:31:56 PM
GREAT SHOW DANA!

thanks
do you mean thursdays show or tonights ?

 ::MonkeyHaHa::


 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::Thursday's show was a little dull.  Tonight's was much bette.  The sound mix must have been better calibrated todight! ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Shell on December 05, 2008, 10:33:56 PM

OT to Klaasend, check email please. Thanks!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 10:38:44 PM
12/5/08 Awe Mainta FP

http://awemainta.com/home/

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaFP2.jpg)

Story Page 3
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaPage3.jpg)

Translation:
fobia of nataly holloway owing to place family y police mobilisa for achieve one lady colombiana
yesterday madruga had one caso, cu owing to wing atencion assure of police. the ghost of nataly holloway is follow persigui we at aruba. ultimo dianan, once more the caso of nataly holloway is follow in news y as menciona, is persigui we at aruba. was diarazon night, one are of tourist colombiano, hospedando at aruba, owing to visit one establecimento nocturno in oranjestad. one dado instant one acolyte of the are colombiano owing to become bad y the family owing to dicidi of hib’e hotel, because the sospechoso is, cu at dicho establecimento nocturno will owing to place algo in beverage of the young here. y so owing to dicidi of hib’e hotel for descansa his curpa. one of the miembronan of family, one lady owing to dicidi of stay atrás cu some amigo, procedente of alemania cu they owing to come come across at dicho establecimento nocturno, cu the entendimento cu the will bay hotel more late. but hour cu the family colombiano owing to arrive hotel, y in oranan of madruga, the lady colombiana not owing to arrive hotel still, the family owing to beat alarma, because of trip owing to happen in they thought the caso of nataly holloway y they does not lose they being queri as till today nataly holloway is desapareci. police of north owing to cuminsa cu busqueda, combina cu police of oranjestad. owing to cuminsa at bay n’e establecimento, but n’e oranan of madruga, already owing to close. where the child muher colombiano here can is. polisnan attentive, conociendo mentalidad of turistanan, owing to dicidi of bay at eagle beach, cu is one of beachnan cu much trip pareha likes live in one or another adventura. y they had razon, already cu hour police owing to arrive eagle beach, they owing to come achieve one or more tourist german y the lady colombiano, kendenan was “fiesta” on beach, but police owing to informa the lady of the panico cu his family t’aden y although cu the is parent of edad, owing to invit’e for mihor they hib’e for his family at hotel. the lady owing to bay of acuerdo y so family owing to stay very contento of can owing to achieve they child muher bek, without cu the have to owing to become of two nataly holloway at aruba, as the family owing to cuminsa think.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:41:30 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 10:43:18 PM
12/5/08 Awe Mainta Front Page

http://awemainta.com/home/

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaFP.jpg)

translation
rudy is mete la hoof
in declaracionnan of we flamante minister of husticia rudy croes at one radio be similar at faction mep, past owing to achieve is good of bay declara cu jan van der straten, ex comisario of police owing to tranca the investigacionnan time cu the was at command at 2005 in cuadro of the desaparicion of natalee holloway. the news here owing to wordo conoci mundialmente y now aruba once more owing to become sharp of critica internacional. various medionan of comunicacion extranhero owing to go back ataca the sistema hudicial of aruba, caminda in cierto of they're menciona even corupcion.

Page 4 Story

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaPage4.jpg)

translation:
again rudy croes is let aruba become sharp of critica internacional
in declaracionnan of we flamante minister of husticia rudy croes at one radio be similar at faction mep, past owing to achieve is good of bay declara cu jan van der straten, ex comisario of police owing to tranca the investigacionnan time cu the was at command at 2005 in cuadro of the desaparicion of natalee holloway. the news here owing to wordo conoci mundialmente y now aruba once more owing to become sharp of critica internacional. various medionan of comunicacion extranhero owing to go back ataca the sistema hudicial of aruba, caminda in cierto of they're menciona even corupcion. while cu one behold y one ahata is try of mehora the situacin critico cu we have in turism, caminda cu the high season is show of is bay is one low season, owing to is we minister of brommer y tennis is bay crea all one issue on natalee holloway cu is place we island in one luz negative again! y all this because van der straten owing to critica cuerpo policial of aruba y the minister the week here in prensa. according rudy croes, jan van der straten cu the time ey was alto comisario of police owing to interveni for help his amigo paul van der sloot proteha his child joran, that was wordo sospecha of is involucra in the desaparicion of holloway. according rudy croes, van der straten owing to detene joran y the rumannan kalpoe after of 10 day of the desaparcion y this expres, because the previous to dianan is crucial in one caso of desaparicion. also we minister of husticia cu likes for aruba wordo lastra owing to indica cu the can owing to listen one conversacion of van der straten caminda cu past owing to bisa: “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul niet aandoen” y besides owing to tell cu had one cantidad big of conversacionnan telefonico among paul y van der straten the time ey. near of this croes, cu owing to considera cu do not sufficient for ataca van der straten y lastra name of aruba again in exterior, owing to dicidi of ataca we own polisnan also. the minister of husticia cu have to stop for his hendenan owing to tell cu van der straten owing to instala one team policial of second rango some after of the desaparicion of natalee, esta the flexiteam cu is wordo instala during carnaval. now, 3 year y mey after of the desaparicion of holloway, rudy croes wanted for come one investigacion of the rol of van der straten y van der sloot, cu as the is tell “como two amigo dutch, paul y jan owing to help otro”. but the not owing to stay till ey niether, rudy croes owing to dicidi of ataca gobierno dutch also saying cu till day of today aruba do not achieve support moral for of the netherlands while cu the name of aruba is wordo lastra y cu at 2005 one minister dutch will owing to pidi’e personalmente for not tell cu joran is dutch y more bien for her come fast because; one aruban. for wash his hand, past owing to tell cu the not will give name of the minister cu owing to pidi’e for haci esaki… come across







Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 10:44:13 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 10:46:20 PM
12/5/08 Awe Mainta Page 2

http://awemainta.com/home/

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaPage2.jpg)

Translation:
Rudy Croes ‘be a man not a mouse’!
in declaracionnan of rudy croes caminda cu the is ataca ex alto comisario of police jan van der straten of owing to tranca the investigacionnan in the caso of desaparicion of natalee holloway y cu owing to place name of aruba internacionalmente again in luz negative, the is tell cu the wanted for one investigacion come on the ex comisario y his relacion cu paul van der sloot. this croes is come pidi’e three year y mey after of desaparicion of natalee holloway solmanente because past owing to wordo ataca by of van der straten in medionan of comunicacion. we minister of husticia cu have we country in grab of delincuentenan have the curashi of come tell this tanto year after, cual assure is crea more doubt still on his capacidadnan cu the have because; minister. past owing to critica the form con van der straten owing to take away the investigacion y owing to tell of have more proof contra van der straten. if esey is the caso the hour rucy croes have to ‘be owing to hand grade owing to mouse’ y entrega esakinan at recherche or ministerio publico y so the investigacion can take lugar y van der straten will wordo close. but as is custumber end, the always is tell of have pruebanan, cu a will owing to bise such cos or such another, but at instant cu the have to come cu the famous pruebanan fast the is fold tail y bay sconde, because not have nothing. for thing is the cuestionamento of con the investigacion owing to wordo take away, specialmente by of rudy croes is cos of laugh, because is deal of the same person cu owing to come cu the ‘videntenan’ indian daniel jung y kelly castillo cu owing to tell cu holloway is at life. cu another word rudy croes have more confianza in videntenan cu in we own cuerpo policial, cual can cierto owing to wordo ataca also in his declaracionnan, saying cu the team cu owing to wordo instala is uno of segunda categoria! if provided that berdad we cuerpo policial owing to abort as croes is tell, the hour the because; minister of husticia have to did take at once his retiro as various of his coleganan social democrata owing to arrive of haci y assure will follow haci, because they're asumi they responsabilidad because; mandatario demostrando so of is hombernan of principio y integridad.




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 10:50:03 PM
some more political background for the ones interested in it.

it is about the Round Table Conference 15th December. this time from the St.Maarten side.
it's already doomed to fail. even if Rudy Croes interview wouldn't have given that interview.

Quote
Dutch Parliament refuses to
give carte blanche for RTC


THE HAGUE--The Second Chamber of the Dutch Parliament made it clear on Tuesday that a decision can’t be taken at the December 15 Round Table Conference (RTC) without Parliament’s consent. Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende has been invited to give an explanation in a meeting next week Thursday.

The Prime Minister will attend a meeting of the Second Chamber’s Permanent Committee for Antillean and Aruban Affairs NAAZ on the request of Member of Parliament Johan Remkes of the opposition party VVD, who was supported in his call by members of the Socialist Party (SP).

The meeting on December 11, one day before the Dutch delegation travels to Curaçao for the RTC, had already been planned, with an update by Dutch State Secretary of Kingdom Relations Ank Bijleveld-Schouten about the constitutional restructuring process on the agenda.

Remkes was very clear in his statement during a session of Parliament on Tuesday afternoon. “It cannot be that on the 15th, under the chairmanship of the Prime Minister, all kinds of issues are being approved, especially those issues that we have our doubts about, like St. Maarten,” he said.

Clearly the Second Chamber doesn’t want irreversible decisions taken at the RTC without Parliament’s consent.
Remkes has already said on various occasions that he thinks Parliament should be updated regularly, not at the last moment.


Remkes initially asked for a public debate about the RTC, but he didn’t muster enough support from his colleagues for that request. He did garner enough support to have Balkenende invited to the December 11 meeting.

Remkes referred to the successful November 26 political consultation in St. Maarten, where parties voiced their optimism about the upcoming RTC. “We were gladly informed last week about the fact that agreements had been made about police legislation and legislation for financial supervision, issues that will be approved during the RTC. Parliament is confronted with this while we have our doubts,” said Remkes.

The Dutch Government, on behalf of State Secretary Bijleveld-Schouten, in a press release on November 26 spoke of “nothing standing in the way of a successful RTC.” In the press release, the RTC was described as an historical meeting where the “floor plan,” the drawings for a new Kingdom with four countries and three “public entities” as part of the Netherlands would be signed off. “All necessary legislation is ready and will be on the table for approval,” it was stated.

This euphoria is now being killed by the Second Chamber, which seems to be sticking to its October 23 motion. In that motion, Parliament made it clear that St. Maarten cannot attain country status until the island has complied with all conditions. Several MP’s doubted that St. Maarten would be ready to assume greater responsibility by January 2010

http://www.thedailyherald.com/news/daily/l170/rtc170.html

Dutch Parliament is starting to get annoyed.
this is just about St.Maarten - an English language island.

note: Johan Remkes was Minister of Home Affairs 2005-2006.
Minister of Home Affairs heads the Police Force KLPD.
Quote
Crying shame

By stating that no decisions can be taken at the upcoming Round Table Conference on the constitutional reforms without its consent, the Second Chamber of Parliament once again threatens to derail the current process to resolve an issue that has already plagued the Dutch Caribbean for so long. A failed RTC and consequently further delay in settling the matter after two earlier postponements of the target date would almost certainly erode public support on the islands, but also in The Hague, to the point where it is doubtful at best whether the desired result will ever be achieved.

That is important to remember, because the choice for the new constitutional statuses being worked on for the islands was made not by Dutch or Antillean politicians, but by the people. The Dutch Members of Parliament would do well to show a little more respect for that outcome of a completely democratic process called a referendum. Granted, the Dutch – and consequently the Kingdom – Government needs to maintain the majority support of the Second Chamber for its policies, but that does not take away the authority of Prime Minister Balkenende to sign agreements and take decisions for which his cabinet will then be held accountable. By saying ahead of time it will not allow that, the Second Chamber is to a certain extent transgressing its constitutional role. However, it must no doubt be seen as a serious political warning that cannot be ignored either. The fact that Balkenende will go to Parliament next week to give an explanation in any case gives his government a chance to get the necessary backing from at least the coalition parties, because an RTC without decisions makes no sense at all.

Perhaps it’s time again for the Antillean Parliament now meeting on the 2009 budget – which by the way includes the debt relief accompanying the constitutional changes – to raise its voice. That the Dutch Second Chamber would take such a strong position beforehand on what is clearly a Kingdom matter without consulting the Antillean Parliament is in itself questionable and shows little regard for the elected representatives of the people of the islands.

This is precisely an example of the much discussed democratic deficit at the Kingdom level, where the Antilles has no legislative representation and while it sits in on the Kingdom Council of Ministers consisting of the Dutch Cabinet, it has no vote. A lot of beautiful words have been dedicated to this subject at various meetings between the Parliaments of the Kingdom, but when it comes to putting that feeling in practice, the Members of Dutch Parliament suddenly seem to have forgotten them.

And that is a crying shame

http://www.thedailyherald.com/news/daily/l170/edit170.html

i wish i could read the Aruban Papiomento papers too.
because they are likely just as angry. especially with this Rudy Croes opening his mouth in that interview.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 10:53:39 PM
12/5/08 Awe Mainta Page 4

http://awemainta.com/home/

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaPg4b.jpg)

Translation:

minister of husticia, rudy croes in meeting cu all boss of departamento, for study con can help come cu one accion inter-departamental for combati criminalidad
minister of husticia, rudy croes, owing to come admiti cu criminalidad is lantando cabez at aruba, y cu cuerpo policial only not can haci the trabao, for motibo of miss of personal. pesey yesterday morning past owing to convoca one meeting cu all boss of departamento, assure all esnan cu is cay bao of his ministerio, as cea, keep we costa, iasa, ministerio publico y police, for look at con can sostene y re-enforza cuerpo policial of aruba. assure in end of week, hour cu see cu more y more caso of violencia, ladronicia of car y cas, kiebra in cas y business, for cual have to come yudanza of all esnan concerni for combati the criminalidad here cu is lantando cabez. cuerpo policial practicamente not have patrol in end of week for haci the trabao they only, for cual wanted study because; another departamentonan hudicial can re-forza cuerpo policial, for sikiera in end of week. esnan cu can help, have to have permission for carga arm of candela also, for cual have acolyte of police cu is in cea, iasa, keep we costa, although they also miss of personal. the end of week here, can bay see the cooperacion, cu the aim for combati criminalidad.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:53:56 PM
12/5/08 Awe Mainta FP

http://awemainta.com/home/

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaFP2.jpg)

Story Page 3
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaPage3.jpg)

Translation:
fobia of nataly holloway owing to place family y police mobilisa for achieve one lady colombiana
yesterday madruga had one caso, cu owing to wing atencion assure of police. the ghost of nataly holloway is follow persigui we at aruba. ultimo dianan, once more the caso of nataly holloway is follow in news y as menciona, is persigui we at aruba. was diarazon night, one are of tourist colombiano, hospedando at aruba, owing to visit one establecimento nocturno in oranjestad. one dado instant one acolyte of the are colombiano owing to become bad y the family owing to dicidi of hib’e hotel, because the sospechoso is, cu at dicho establecimento nocturno will owing to place algo in beverage of the young here. y so owing to dicidi of hib’e hotel for descansa his curpa. one of the miembronan of family, one lady owing to dicidi of stay atrás cu some amigo, procedente of alemania cu they owing to come come across at dicho establecimento nocturno, cu the entendimento cu the will bay hotel more late. but hour cu the family colombiano owing to arrive hotel, y in oranan of madruga, the lady colombiana not owing to arrive hotel still, the family owing to beat alarma, because of trip owing to happen in they thought the caso of nataly holloway y they does not lose they being queri as till today nataly holloway is desapareci. police of north owing to cuminsa cu busqueda, combina cu police of oranjestad. owing to cuminsa at bay n’e establecimento, but n’e oranan of madruga, already owing to close. where the child muher colombiano here can is. polisnan attentive, conociendo mentalidad of turistanan, owing to dicidi of bay at eagle beach, cu is one of beachnan cu much trip pareha likes live in one or another adventura. y they had razon, already cu hour police owing to arrive eagle beach, they owing to come achieve one or more tourist german y the lady colombiano, kendenan was “fiesta” on beach, but police owing to informa the lady of the panico cu his family t’aden y although cu the is parent of edad, owing to invit’e for mihor they hib’e for his family at hotel. the lady owing to bay of acuerdo y so family owing to stay very contento of can owing to achieve they child muher bek, without cu the have to owing to become of two nataly holloway at aruba, as the family owing to cuminsa think.


Is she saying something about the ghost of Natalee Holloway?   ::MonkeyShocked::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 10:55:05 PM
another article i found now in English - about St.Maarten Situation.
Quote
All levels of Government in the Kingdom, Caricom, the UN etc., 'Country Status St. Maarten, or new Banana Republic within the Kingdom?'


Tuesday, 02 December 2008 21:39 SMN-NEWS TEAM

On behalf of all concerned native-indigenous St. Martiners and other law-abiding, legal residents residing on the islands of St. Maarten, we hereby express our sincerest 'thanks' to all those in authority, who although fully aware of the politics of corruption that has the island in a stranglehold for their co-operation with the island getting its long coveted 'country-status' within the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
Although, the Kingdom of the Netherlands has built a tradition for some of the highest standards of democracy in the world, the fact that it now apparently allows for a 'den of corruption' within its border to be rewarded with even more political power, comes across as a betrayal of that reputation, principles and trust of its citizens.
In addition, it sends out to the people of this island and to the world a message of Dutch 'pragmatism' resulting in the collaboration with unscrupulous governments at the expense of an oppressed native population.
After having informed, on an intense basis, successive Dutch Governments of the threat to the very existence of the native-indigenous people of this island, it now appears that the Dutch Government too, has turned its back on the St. Martin People.
In doing so, it appears that the Kingdom of the Netherlands is prepared to grant the corrupt politicians of St. Maarten, exactly what they wanted, WITHOUT any guarantees for the safety, protection and survival of the native-indigenous people of this island, whose great and legendary friendliness and hospitality is now becoming the very basis for their very demise.
Meanwhile, increasingly illegal immigrants are flooding into the country from countries where they have no regard for any laws and where crime and horrendous forms of murder is the order of the day.
Consequently, many of these immigrants, are systematically introducing this 'concept' of 'institutionalized lawlessness' in our island.
Obviously with a great degree of 'success' since by completely and deliberately disrespecting, breaking the law of the land, they are 'rewarded' by our authorities with no punishment, amnesty, naturalization down the road and by virtue of their uncontrolled population growth, defacto eliminating the natives and other Antilleans from the face of the 'Friendly island' . .
The question now is, whether all those in authority, including the Dutch Government, have now allowed for the the introduction of a 'New Socio-political Order' , disguised as 'Country status within the Dutch Kingdom'.
Already, the people on this island are experiencing the 'outer bands' of this 'New Order' in the form of dis-respect, intimidation, asocial behavior, crime, 'street-anarchy and terrorism'.

In the meantime, the island is also experiencing a very confusing situation of 'double-standards' in terms of how Justice functions.
In one set of 'standards' it are especially the local, native people who are expected to uphold the law of the land and who are systematically threatened to be punished.
In the other one, the imported 'Banana-Republic standard' in which 'lawlessness' is the preferred 'modus operandi, the transgressions of mainly illegal immigrants, who have absolutely no regards for any law of this land, seem to be 'rewarded', making law-abiding residents feel 'foolish' for abiding the law
Therefore, whether we want to admit or not, sooner or late the entire population might very well come to the conclusion that remaining 'law-abiding' is no longer part of the 'New Order' and and might be de facto against their own interests and rights to even survive as a people.
Once that mentality becomes 'embedded' in our new 'culture' and in our new way of life, 'Crappo', his partner HERO BRINKMAN and others will have 'lots of pipes' to smoke'.
Eventually, those having contributed to this 'New Order', disguised as 'Country St. Maarten within the Kingdom', might well be responsible accountable on some forum or tribunal.
Time will tell.

new Banana Republic is being created - next to Aruba we already have...

http://www.smn-news.com/letters/682-all-levels-of-government-in-the-kingdom-caricom-the-un-etc-country-status-st-maarten-or-new-banana-republic-within-the-kingdom.html


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 10:55:11 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.

Exactly



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 10:57:11 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.

Exactly



LOL.  Actually I think I may know what to make of that, but the particulars are not present at this time so I guess I will hang on to it until another time.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 10:57:53 PM
12/5/08 Awe Mainta Page 2

http://awemainta.com/home/

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaPage2.jpg)

Translation:
Rudy Croes ‘be a man not a mouse’!
in declaracionnan of rudy croes caminda cu the is ataca ex alto comisario of police jan van der straten of owing to tranca the investigacionnan in the caso of desaparicion of natalee holloway y cu owing to place name of aruba internacionalmente again in luz negative, the is tell cu the wanted for one investigacion come on the ex comisario y his relacion cu paul van der sloot. this croes is come pidi’e three year y mey after of desaparicion of natalee holloway solmanente because past owing to wordo ataca by of van der straten in medionan of comunicacion. we minister of husticia cu have we country in grab of delincuentenan have the curashi of come tell this tanto year after, cual assure is crea more doubt still on his capacidadnan cu the have because; minister. past owing to critica the form con van der straten owing to take away the investigacion y owing to tell of have more proof contra van der straten. if esey is the caso the hour rucy croes have to ‘be owing to hand grade owing to mouse’ y entrega esakinan at recherche or ministerio publico y so the investigacion can take lugar y van der straten will wordo close. but as is custumber end, the always is tell of have pruebanan, cu a will owing to bise such cos or such another, but at instant cu the have to come cu the famous pruebanan fast the is fold tail y bay sconde, because not have nothing. for thing is the cuestionamento of con the investigacion owing to wordo take away, specialmente by of rudy croes is cos of laugh, because is deal of the same person cu owing to come cu the ‘videntenan’ indian daniel jung y kelly castillo cu owing to tell cu holloway is at life. cu another word rudy croes have more confianza in videntenan cu in we own cuerpo policial, cual can cierto owing to wordo ataca also in his declaracionnan, saying cu the team cu owing to wordo instala is uno of segunda categoria! if provided that berdad we cuerpo policial owing to abort as croes is tell, the hour the because; minister of husticia have to did take at once his retiro as various of his coleganan social democrata owing to arrive of haci y assure will follow haci, because they're asumi they responsabilidad because; mandatario demostrando so of is hombernan of principio y integridad.




there we go. i wish i could read it. but i can somewhat guess it.
he is more of a RAT abandoning the ship.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 11:00:54 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

if he does you are going to laugh at Rudy Croes speaking.
it constantly sounds like he is snorting something up his nose.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 11:02:04 PM
12/5/08 Awe Mainta FP

http://awemainta.com/home/

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaFP2.jpg)

Story Page 3
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008AweMaintaPage3.jpg)

Translation:
fobia of nataly holloway owing to place family y police mobilisa for achieve one lady colombiana
yesterday madruga had one caso, cu owing to wing atencion assure of police. the ghost of nataly holloway is follow persigui we at aruba. ultimo dianan, once more the caso of nataly holloway is follow in news y as menciona, is persigui we at aruba. was diarazon night, one are of tourist colombiano, hospedando at aruba, owing to visit one establecimento nocturno in oranjestad. one dado instant one acolyte of the are colombiano owing to become bad y the family owing to dicidi of hib’e hotel, because the sospechoso is, cu at dicho establecimento nocturno will owing to place algo in beverage of the young here. y so owing to dicidi of hib’e hotel for descansa his curpa. one of the miembronan of family, one lady owing to dicidi of stay atrás cu some amigo, procedente of alemania cu they owing to come come across at dicho establecimento nocturno, cu the entendimento cu the will bay hotel more late. but hour cu the family colombiano owing to arrive hotel, y in oranan of madruga, the lady colombiana not owing to arrive hotel still, the family owing to beat alarma, because of trip owing to happen in they thought the caso of nataly holloway y they does not lose they being queri as till today nataly holloway is desapareci. police of north owing to cuminsa cu busqueda, combina cu police of oranjestad. owing to cuminsa at bay n’e establecimento, but n’e oranan of madruga, already owing to close. where the child muher colombiano here can is. polisnan attentive, conociendo mentalidad of turistanan, owing to dicidi of bay at eagle beach, cu is one of beachnan cu much trip pareha likes live in one or another adventura. y they had razon, already cu hour police owing to arrive eagle beach, they owing to come achieve one or more tourist german y the lady colombiano, kendenan was “fiesta” on beach, but police owing to informa the lady of the panico cu his family t’aden y although cu the is parent of edad, owing to invit’e for mihor they hib’e for his family at hotel. the lady owing to bay of acuerdo y so family owing to stay very contento of can owing to achieve they child muher bek, without cu the have to owing to become of two nataly holloway at aruba, as the family owing to cuminsa think.


Is she saying something about the ghost of Natalee Holloway?   ::MonkeyShocked::

I saw that too Klaas! I hope maybe Sandy Leiva will stop in and make the translations better for us!  


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 11:03:10 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

if he does you are going to laugh at Rudy Croes speaking.
it constantly sounds like he is snorting something up his nose.

 ::MonkeyShocked::  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Elaine on December 05, 2008, 11:21:31 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

if he does you are going to laugh at Rudy Croes speaking.
it constantly sounds like he is snorting something up his nose.
Perhaps Ol Rudy is a cokehead like a lot of others on that lil Island.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZLady on December 05, 2008, 11:25:39 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.

Exactly



LOL.  Actually I think I may know what to make of that, but the particulars are not present at this time so I guess I will hang on to it until another time.
The script for Dateline was written and the video is edited to fit the audio.  Whatever doesn't fit the "story" is edited out.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 05, 2008, 11:26:07 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

if he does you are going to laugh at Rudy Croes speaking.
it constantly sounds like he is snorting something up his nose.
Perhaps Ol Rudy is a cokehead like a lot of others on that lil Island.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/RudySnort.swf

here you can listen to it.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 11:28:40 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.

Exactly



LOL.  Actually I think I may know what to make of that, but the particulars are not present at this time so I guess I will hang on to it until another time.
The script for Dateline was written and the video is edited to fit the audio.  Whatever doesn't fit the "story" is edited out.

I know what you mean, but you have Tim Miller on board that day.  If I believe anyone in this whole search scenario it's him.  He would have seen that image if it was taken by that ROV and I do believe he would have said something by now.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Helen Back on December 05, 2008, 11:29:10 PM
caesu,


 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

Eeeeeeewwwww!

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 11:30:29 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.

Exactly



LOL.  Actually I think I may know what to make of that, but the particulars are not present at this time so I guess I will hang on to it until another time.
The script for Dateline was written and the video is edited to fit the audio.  Whatever doesn't fit the "story" is edited out.

I know what you mean, but you have Tim Miller on board that day.  If I believe anyone in this whole search scenario it's him.  He would have seen that image if it was taken by that ROV and I do believe he would have said something by now.
Not if the FAMILY told him to keep it under wraps as well.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Elaine on December 05, 2008, 11:30:36 PM
Thanks Dana and Red!  I hope Dana can get Jan vd Straten and Rudy Croes to come on the show! 

 ::MonkeyCool::

if he does you are going to laugh at Rudy Croes speaking.
it constantly sounds like he is snorting something up his nose.
Perhaps Ol Rudy is a cokehead like a lot of others on that lil Island.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/RudySnort.swf

here you can listen to it.  ::MonkeyHaHa::
LMAO... yes that does sound like that snort they do after that get that little coke drip, yes I have known a few coke  addicts.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 11:32:04 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.

Exactly



LOL.  Actually I think I may know what to make of that, but the particulars are not present at this time so I guess I will hang on to it until another time.
The script for Dateline was written and the video is edited to fit the audio.  Whatever doesn't fit the "story" is edited out.

I know what you mean, but you have Tim Miller on board that day.  If I believe anyone in this whole search scenario it's him.  He would have seen that image if it was taken by that ROV and I do believe he would have said something by now.
Not if the FAMILY told him to keep it under wraps as well.

And Dateline was told to keep it under wraps?  A scoop like that?  Hmm.  Don't know about that.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 05, 2008, 11:41:01 PM
caesu,


 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

Eeeeeeewwwww!

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::


yep, that was gross!   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 05, 2008, 11:41:53 PM


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/RudySnort.swf

here you can listen to it.  ::MonkeyHaHa::

OMG, I actually forgot I put that one together, LOLOL  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 05, 2008, 11:42:34 PM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?

That picture came from Kyle so it was from the ROV but not part of the Dateline special.

So within 60 seconds of a thumbs down that image was captured by the ROV and nobody on the Persistance at that time made any comments about it and Dateline did not show it?  I'm not sure what to make of that.

Exactly



LOL.  Actually I think I may know what to make of that, but the particulars are not present at this time so I guess I will hang on to it until another time.
The script for Dateline was written and the video is edited to fit the audio.  Whatever doesn't fit the "story" is edited out.

I know what you mean, but you have Tim Miller on board that day.  If I believe anyone in this whole search scenario it's him.  He would have seen that image if it was taken by that ROV and I do believe he would have said something by now.
Not if the FAMILY told him to keep it under wraps as well.

And Dateline was told to keep it under wraps?  A scoop like that?  Hmm.  Don't know about that.
Dateline was duped not told to be quiet (I think). If you want to go total "conspiracy"  theory --- perhaps just the few crew from "Dateline" were bribed.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 05, 2008, 11:48:13 PM
Wreck,
I don't want to go 'total conspiracy theory'.  I want to apply a little logic to this whole pictures from the fish trap show.  You have 60 seconds, mind you, 60 seconds after a 'thumbs down' until that image is captured with Tim Miller and Dateline sitting right there...and no one has said a word about it until these pics show up on a website?  And we are hearing that someone is trying to make deals on these pics with networks...when Dateline should already have that very moment captured on their video...but we never saw it?  Dateline would have LOVED to have such a scoop back then, but ... nothing.

Something isn't right.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: casa on December 05, 2008, 11:57:59 PM
Be careful what you believe.Others who speak for the family are not so truthful


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:01:30 AM
Be careful what you believe.Others who speak for the family are not so truthful

Can you elaborate?  Am I going in the wrong direction here?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 12:05:32 AM
Wreck,
I don't want to go 'total conspiracy theory'.  I want to apply a little logic to this whole pictures from the fish trap show.  You have 60 seconds, mind you, 60 seconds after a 'thumbs down' until that image is captured with Tim Miller and Dateline sitting right there...and no one has said a word about it until these pics show up on a website?  And we are hearing that someone is trying to make deals on these pics with networks...when Dateline should already have that very moment captured on their video...but we never saw it?  Dateline would have LOVED to have such a scoop back then, but ... nothing.

Something isn't right.
Not too hard to explain if:
On board Persistence, Dateline is filming the monitors that capture the ROV pictures in real time....Dateline crew is all about capturing the thumbs up/down sign from the diver...once done....Dateline camera stops recording....all in room react to thumbs down and no longer attentive to the ROV camera......Add to that, it would not have been uncommon for the ROV monitor operator to not focus on the continuing filming by ROV and/or even shutting down the monitor (whether intentional or not) and therefore the filming taking place 60 secs later is missed by all or most in the room....
 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:10:42 AM
Wreck,
I don't want to go 'total conspiracy theory'.  I want to apply a little logic to this whole pictures from the fish trap show.  You have 60 seconds, mind you, 60 seconds after a 'thumbs down' until that image is captured with Tim Miller and Dateline sitting right there...and no one has said a word about it until these pics show up on a website?  And we are hearing that someone is trying to make deals on these pics with networks...when Dateline should already have that very moment captured on their video...but we never saw it?  Dateline would have LOVED to have such a scoop back then, but ... nothing.

Something isn't right.
Not too hard to explain if:
On board Persistence, Dateline is filming the monitors that capture the ROV pictures in real time....Dateline crew is all about capturing the thumbs up/down sign from the diver...once done....Dateline camera stops recording....all in room react to thumbs down and no longer attentive to the ROV camera......Add to that, it would not have been uncommon for the ROV monitor operator to not focus on the continuing filming by ROV and/or even shutting down the monitor (whether intentional or not) and therefore the filming taking place 60 secs later is missed by all or most in the room....
 

The ROV was not shut down.  It was manuevered into that position and the focus indicators show it 8 feet from the focus point in the 15:40 shot.  You can also see that everyone was still looking at the monitors as shown in the pic with the time stamp 15:43.  This was on the Dateline footage.  A mere four minutes after the thumbs down.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 12:18:52 AM
Wreck,
I don't want to go 'total conspiracy theory'.  I want to apply a little logic to this whole pictures from the fish trap show.  You have 60 seconds, mind you, 60 seconds after a 'thumbs down' until that image is captured with Tim Miller and Dateline sitting right there...and no one has said a word about it until these pics show up on a website?  And we are hearing that someone is trying to make deals on these pics with networks...when Dateline should already have that very moment captured on their video...but we never saw it?  Dateline would have LOVED to have such a scoop back then, but ... nothing.

Something isn't right.
Not too hard to explain if:
On board Persistence, Dateline is filming the monitors that capture the ROV pictures in real time....Dateline crew is all about capturing the thumbs up/down sign from the diver...once done....Dateline camera stops recording....all in room react to thumbs down and no longer attentive to the ROV camera......Add to that, it would not have been uncommon for the ROV monitor operator to not focus on the continuing filming by ROV and/or even shutting down the monitor (whether intentional or not) and therefore the filming taking place 60 secs later is missed by all or most in the room....
 

The ROV was not shut down.  It was manuevered into that position and the focus indicators show it 8 feet from the focus point in the 15:40 shot.  You can also see that everyone was still looking at the monitors as shown in the pic with the time stamp 15:43.  This was on the Dateline footage.  A mere four minutes after the thumbs down.
Please bring the screen shots forward again as I'm not sure what you are referring too...
Thanks in advance


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:22:57 AM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is NOT Tim Miller hand  but he was on the ship
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581




Oh My God, Blonde.  The timestamp next to Tim Millers hand shows 13 minutes later.  Tim was reported to be off the ship on June 7th when the cage contents were taken by ALE, but he was onbaord during this film sequence.  Please someone, say it isn't so.



NOT TIM'S HAND BUT TIM WAS STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY WHO POINTED
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/NOTTIM.jpg)




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: casa on December 06, 2008, 12:22:58 AM
Be careful what you believe.Others who speak for the family are not so truthful

Can you elaborate?  Am I going in the wrong direction here?

Unfortunately I cannot elaborate.  I wish I could.  All I can say is be careful who you believe.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 12:24:05 AM
Wreck,
I don't want to go 'total conspiracy theory'.  I want to apply a little logic to this whole pictures from the fish trap show.  You have 60 seconds, mind you, 60 seconds after a 'thumbs down' until that image is captured with Tim Miller and Dateline sitting right there...and no one has said a word about it until these pics show up on a website?  And we are hearing that someone is trying to make deals on these pics with networks...when Dateline should already have that very moment captured on their video...but we never saw it?  Dateline would have LOVED to have such a scoop back then, but ... nothing.

Something isn't right.
Not too hard to explain if:
On board Persistence, Dateline is filming the monitors that capture the ROV pictures in real time....Dateline crew is all about capturing the thumbs up/down sign from the diver...once done....Dateline camera stops recording....all in room react to thumbs down and no longer attentive to the ROV camera......Add to that, it would not have been uncommon for the ROV monitor operator to not focus on the continuing filming by ROV and/or even shutting down the monitor (whether intentional or not) and therefore the filming taking place 60 secs later is missed by all or most in the room....
 

The ROV was not shut down.  It was manuevered into that position and the focus indicators show it 8 feet from the focus point in the 15:40 shot.  You can also see that everyone was still looking at the monitors as shown in the pic with the time stamp 15:43.  This was on the Dateline footage.  A mere four minutes after the thumbs down.

Truthseeker, what do you think is the explanation?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:26:05 AM


(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/ZEE-datelinetrapbo2.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/2345841784_52614dbecb_ocopy.jpg)






Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:30:29 AM
Wreck,
I don't want to go 'total conspiracy theory'.  I want to apply a little logic to this whole pictures from the fish trap show.  You have 60 seconds, mind you, 60 seconds after a 'thumbs down' until that image is captured with Tim Miller and Dateline sitting right there...and no one has said a word about it until these pics show up on a website?  And we are hearing that someone is trying to make deals on these pics with networks...when Dateline should already have that very moment captured on their video...but we never saw it?  Dateline would have LOVED to have such a scoop back then, but ... nothing.

Something isn't right.
Not too hard to explain if:
On board Persistence, Dateline is filming the monitors that capture the ROV pictures in real time....Dateline crew is all about capturing the thumbs up/down sign from the diver...once done....Dateline camera stops recording....all in room react to thumbs down and no longer attentive to the ROV camera......Add to that, it would not have been uncommon for the ROV monitor operator to not focus on the continuing filming by ROV and/or even shutting down the monitor (whether intentional or not) and therefore the filming taking place 60 secs later is missed by all or most in the room....
 

The ROV was not shut down.  It was manuevered into that position and the focus indicators show it 8 feet from the focus point in the 15:40 shot.  You can also see that everyone was still looking at the monitors as shown in the pic with the time stamp 15:43.  This was on the Dateline footage.  A mere four minutes after the thumbs down.

Truthseeker, what do you think is the explanation?

I don't really know.  I makes me wonder if we are really just seeing what we 'want' to see.  Or, are those human remains, but the pic has been altered to show a different date and time stamp???  I just don't know.  I was hoping talking through the logic would help answer the question of the timing of pics we are seeing here.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 12:32:08 AM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is NOT Tim Miller hand  but he was on the ship
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581




Oh My God, Blonde.  The timestamp next to Tim Millers hand shows 13 minutes later.  Tim was reported to be off the ship on June 7th when the cage contents were taken by ALE, but he was onbaord during this film sequence.  Please someone, say it isn't so.



NOT TIM'S HAND BUT TIM WAS STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY WHO POINTED
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/NOTTIM.jpg)


TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:37:02 AM
TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Okay.  I get that.  But look at the date and time stamps...the pic that appears to have captured human remains was right in the middle of the other images.  Who took it?  I was told earlier that there was only one ROV.  If someone took that with a camera why are the date and time stamps exactly like those we see on the ROV images?

Where did that image come from, who captured it and was it ever present on the monitors onboard the Persistance?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 12:42:08 AM
TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Okay.  I get that.  But look at the date and time stamps...the pic that appears to have captured human remains was right in the middle of the other images.  Who took it?  I was told earlier that there was only one ROV.  If someone took that with a camera why are the date and time stamps exactly like those we see on the ROV images?

Where did that image come from, who captured it and was it ever present on the monitors onboard the Persistance?
OK...Can you post the pic of the remains that have the same timestamp so I can compare that with the frames you just posted? Sorry for being so difficult.
and I should have posted TS2, not TT2  ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:43:19 AM
TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Okay.  I get that.  But look at the date and time stamps...the pic that appears to have captured human remains was right in the middle of the other images.  Who took it?  I was told earlier that there was only one ROV.  If someone took that with a camera why are the date and time stamps exactly like those we see on the ROV images?

Where did that image come from, who captured it and was it ever present on the monitors onboard the Persistance?

Also, see where Dateline was still filming at 15:43 in the shoot where someone is pointing to the monitor.  So  at 15:39 we have a thumbs dow.  At 15:40 we have what appears to be human remains.  At 15:43 we have divers that appear to be leaving the trap.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 12:43:23 AM
I do remember that it was said that at the time of the
18:43 picture a large skate swam by and clouded the water.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:44:04 AM
TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Okay.  I get that.  But look at the date and time stamps...the pic that appears to have captured human remains was right in the middle of the other images.  Who took it?  I was told earlier that there was only one ROV.  If someone took that with a camera why are the date and time stamps exactly like those we see on the ROV images?

Where did that image come from, who captured it and was it ever present on the monitors onboard the Persistance?
OK...Can you post the pic of the remains that have the same timestamp so I can compare that with the frames you just posted? Sorry for being so difficult.
and I should have posted TS2, not TT2  ::MonkeyCool::

That image is at the top of this page.  Note the date and time.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:45:19 AM
I do remember that it was said that at the time of the
18:43 picture a large skate swam by and clouded the water.

So people were still watching the monitor at that time.  The ROV was still active.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:46:15 AM
I do remember that it was said that at the time of the
18:43 picture a large skate swam by and clouded the water.

I took it that you meant 15:43.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 12:52:05 AM
They were right there, so close, yet it got buggered.
It should have been conclusively YES or NO, not leaving this room for this doubt. I
waffle back and forth. Everything about the search was so scientific. Everything was calculated. Except .. the actual recovery of whatever was in that cage. Does that seem strange to anyone ? So many experts on that boat,the latest in equipment. Leave it to humans with their own stupid reasons for doing this.
..
Why was Tim a liability at that point ?  

Tim Miller was a liability because he had already seen the ROV image of the cage prior to the dive to retrieve the contents and ... was convinced he saw a skull ... 99% convinced.

In the beginning ... Tim Miller/TES was an asset in regards to raising funds for the endeavor that ... in actuality ... had nothing to do with justice for Natalee Holloway.  It had everything to do with a search and destroy mission to further the Aruban coverup that began on the morning of May 30, 2005 and ... Tim Miller and Kyle were pawns in a "game that was fixed" before it had even begun..

IMO

Janet

+++++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:02:45 AM
Life outside the computer beckoned and ... I missed Dana.

 ::MonkeyWaa::

I will listen to it tomorrow ... I am too tired right now.

GOOD NIGHT MONKEYS!!!  GOOD NIGHT ZOO GEEPERS!!!

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 01:03:46 AM
TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Okay.  I get that.  But look at the date and time stamps...the pic that appears to have captured human remains was right in the middle of the other images.  Who took it?  I was told earlier that there was only one ROV.  If someone took that with a camera why are the date and time stamps exactly like those we see on the ROV images?

Where did that image come from, who captured it and was it ever present on the monitors onboard the Persistance?
OK...Can you post the pic of the remains that have the same timestamp so I can compare that with the frames you just posted? Sorry for being so difficult.
and I should have posted TS2, not TT2  ::MonkeyCool::

That image is at the top of this page.  Note the date and time.
TS2,
Now I understand what you are saying..
The 15:40 pic at the top of this page is a pic directly from the ROV camera....all the others are from a screen shots (by dateline) from the on board monitors. If we assume the screen shots are real time, then why didn't dateline capture the 15:40 pic?  The only conclusion I can draw is that the dateline screen shots did not see the real time pics from the ROV. It is quite possible that the screen shots dateline captured were not real time and that a playback video was presented to dateline (via the monitors) to capture. That could be very possible if the Persistence crew was being cautious and delaying the playback by a few moments in order to prevent real time exposure of the events as they  unraveled.
I can tell you that is a real possibility (delayed playback) and most on board would not have noticed.
It is actually a smart ploy to know what is captured before you expose it......and used frequently.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 01:03:57 AM
Nite Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 01:05:23 AM
TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Okay.  I get that.  But look at the date and time stamps...the pic that appears to have captured human remains was right in the middle of the other images.  Who took it?  I was told earlier that there was only one ROV.  If someone took that with a camera why are the date and time stamps exactly like those we see on the ROV images?

Where did that image come from, who captured it and was it ever present on the monitors onboard the Persistance?
OK...Can you post the pic of the remains that have the same timestamp so I can compare that with the frames you just posted? Sorry for being so difficult.
and I should have posted TS2, not TT2  ::MonkeyCool::

That image is at the top of this page.  Note the date and time.
TS2,
Now I understand what you are saying..
The 15:40 pic at the top of this page is a pic directly from the ROV camera....all the others are from a screen shots (by dateline) from the on board monitors. If we assume the screen shots are real time, then why didn't dateline capture the 15:40 pic?  The only conclusion I can draw is that the dateline screen shots did not see the real time pics from the ROV. It is quite possible that the screen shots dateline captured were not real time and that a playback video was presented to dateline (via the monitors) to capture. That could be very possible if the Persistence crew was being cautious and delaying the playback by a few moments in order to prevent real time exposure of the events as they  unraveled.
I can tell you that is a real possibility (delayed playback) and most on board would not have noticed.
It is actually a smart ploy to know what is captured before you expose it......and used frequently.

Makes sense Billb, thanks.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 01:12:00 AM
Very good reasoning Billb!   ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:12:45 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 01:13:14 AM
TT2,
I'm not trying to be dense...but I don't know what you are implying. The pics don't show anything in the cage, as they don't pan over into the area that Kermit's pics did showing the potential remains....This means to me Dateline videoing didn't capture anything of significance other than a thumbs down. What am I missing?


Okay.  I get that.  But look at the date and time stamps...the pic that appears to have captured human remains was right in the middle of the other images.  Who took it?  I was told earlier that there was only one ROV.  If someone took that with a camera why are the date and time stamps exactly like those we see on the ROV images?

Where did that image come from, who captured it and was it ever present on the monitors onboard the Persistance?
OK...Can you post the pic of the remains that have the same timestamp so I can compare that with the frames you just posted? Sorry for being so difficult.
and I should have posted TS2, not TT2  ::MonkeyCool::

That image is at the top of this page.  Note the date and time.
TS2,
Now I understand what you are saying..
The 15:40 pic at the top of this page is a pic directly from the ROV camera....all the others are from a screen shots (by dateline) from the on board monitors. If we assume the screen shots are real time, then why didn't dateline capture the 15:40 pic?  The only conclusion I can draw is that the dateline screen shots did not see the real time pics from the ROV. It is quite possible that the screen shots dateline captured were not real time and that a playback video was presented to dateline (via the monitors) to capture. That could be very possible if the Persistence crew was being cautious and delaying the playback by a few moments in order to prevent real time exposure of the events as they  unraveled.
I can tell you that is a real possibility (delayed playback) and most on board would not have noticed.
It is actually a smart ploy to know what is captured before you expose it......and used frequently.
Consider this:
Persistence know what they had (Tim was 99.9% sure on 12/29/07).
Dateline was allowed to video and take screen captures on 12/30/07 of the thumbs up/down event....
Tim saw realtime videos by ROV on 12/29----then the 12/30 production of screen captures...
Tim was right on 12/29...whatever transpired and who orchestrated the 12/30 screen captures for dateline may have some answering to do...
I beleive Tim was duped...and in no way was part of the scam played out for dateline.....


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 01:14:05 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qK95qsXq6Q


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 01:17:46 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?
Good question TS2.
I haven't seen the dateline video.....are they all just screen shots, or a running video projected on the on board monitors?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:22:06 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qK95qsXq6Q

It appears that video is out of sequence.  The first underwater image on the video is at 15:43.  It's hard to tell how much time had elasped from the thumbs down shot and the next shot which was of Tim Miller.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 01:23:03 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qK95qsXq6Q
Thanks Klaas...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:23:42 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?
Good question TS2.
I haven't seen the dateline video.....are they all just screen shots, or a running video projected on the on board monitors?

It's all very curious to me.  Maybe there is a simple answer, but I'm just not seeing it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:27:47 AM
I think I'm going to sleep on this tonight and see how I feel about it tomorrow.

billb, thanks for the logical discussions!

Klaas, thanks for the video link.

'Nite monkey detectives!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 01:29:55 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?
Good question TS2.
I haven't seen the dateline video.....are they all just screen shots, or a running video projected on the on board monitors?
TS2...
OK, I see we both just watch the dateline video that Klaas so kindly presented....
Based on the video, i stand by my comments......
Dateline got screen shots only and the pics of possible remains were from the ROV cameras directly....
To me, it explains the circumstances and I don't see anything odd about the pics from 15:40 (ROV SHOT) to 15:43 (screen capture)...
I hope that clears up your concerns.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:15:20 AM
Not sure what this is all about.   ::MonkeyRoll::

12/5/08 Solo Di Pueblo

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008SoloDiPuebloPg3.jpg)

Translation:
according karam misier: at november the will come saca the wesonan of natalee holloway we owing to enter december y have one people is cry for husticia

sta. cruz -- cierto sir van der straten, ex -alto comisario of police anteriormente owing to declara: “ik zal deze zaak eventjes oplossen met de flexie team” y “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul van der sloot niet aandoen”. one person dutch owing to try torpedea one investigacion cu have to did take lugar the first dianan of the suceso fateful here. but for motibo of ‘vriendjes-politiek’ owing to last 10 day first cu owing to detene the sospechoso principal, joran van der sloot. at bonaire two cabez of police owing to cay at instant cu they not owing to atende the caso of marilies van der kouwe the first two dianan. here at aruba we was have one such van der straten, cu owing to fracasa, owing to torpedea y owing to hinca aruba in one bad mal spot, for his incompetencia y owing to proposito. karam misier owing to tell cu at november the will come saca the wesonan of the child muher natalee holloway. according karam the know good where nh is bury y the know also at home of that natalee was scondi. also the know where el’a die y kendenan owing to mutila his curpa for so deshaci of the curpa y bury partinan of his curpa. same also the caso here will trece one solucion cu the desaparicion of the young vicencio tromp. according another version, vicencio tromp wanted owing to talk y owing to become one menaza for her ‘macamba conexion’. same the caso of pitbull cu also owing to achieve one vuelta because the also wanted owing to talk. the ‘dutch conection at aruba is pior cu cualkier organizacion of hitman sicario at world. ex –comisario van der straten together cu his amigo paul van der sloot have cu bay talk at instant cu saca the curpa of natalee. karam misier already is one paar of day overdue.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 02:24:54 AM
Not sure what this is all about.   ::MonkeyRoll::

12/5/08 Solo Di Pueblo

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008SoloDiPuebloPg3.jpg)

Translation:
according karam misier: at november the will come saca the wesonan of natalee holloway we owing to enter december y have one people is cry for husticia

sta. cruz -- cierto sir van der straten, ex -alto comisario of police anteriormente owing to declara: “ik zal deze zaak eventjes oplossen met de flexie team” y “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul van der sloot niet aandoen”. one person dutch owing to try torpedea one investigacion cu have to did take lugar the first dianan of the suceso fateful here. but for motibo of ‘vriendjes-politiek’ owing to last 10 day first cu owing to detene the sospechoso principal, joran van der sloot. at bonaire two cabez of police owing to cay at instant cu they not owing to atende the caso of marilies van der kouwe the first two dianan. here at aruba we was have one such van der straten, cu owing to fracasa, owing to torpedea y owing to hinca aruba in one bad mal spot, for his incompetencia y owing to proposito. karam misier owing to tell cu at november the will come saca the wesonan of the child muher natalee holloway. according karam the know good where nh is bury y the know also at home of that natalee was scondi. also the know where el’a die y kendenan owing to mutila his curpa for so deshaci of the curpa y bury partinan of his curpa. same also the caso here will trece one solucion cu the desaparicion of the young vicencio tromp. according another version, vicencio tromp wanted owing to talk y owing to become one menaza for her ‘macamba conexion’. same the caso of pitbull cu also owing to achieve one vuelta because the also wanted owing to talk. the ‘dutch conection at aruba is pior cu cualkier organizacion of hitman sicario at world. ex –comisario van der straten together cu his amigo paul van der sloot have cu bay talk at instant cu saca the curpa of natalee. karam misier already is one paar of day overdue.

TM..
sounds like RTrtrfvvbfr nhhree bghuit nhtfl kr p greek to me...I don't know greek. ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:25:39 AM
sta. cruz -- cierto sir van der straten, ex -alto comisario of police anteriormente owing to declara: “ik zal deze zaak eventjes oplossen met de flexie team” y “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul van der sloot niet aandoen”. one person dutch owing to try torpedea one investigacion cu have to did take lugar the first dianan of the suceso fateful here. but for motibo of ‘vriendjes-politiek’ owing to last 10 day first cu owing to detene the sospechoso principal, joran van der sloot. at bonaire two cabez of police owing to cay at instant cu they not owing to atende the caso of marilies van der kouwe the first two dianan. here at aruba we was have one such van der straten, cu owing to fracasa, owing to torpedea y owing to hinca aruba in one bad mal spot, for his incompetencia y owing to proposito. karam misier owing to tell cu at november the will come saca the wesonan of the child muher natalee holloway. according karam the know good where nh is bury y the know also at home of that natalee was scondi. also the know where el’a die y kendenan owing to mutila his curpa for so deshaci of the curpa y bury partinan of his curpa. same also the caso here will trece one solucion cu the desaparicion of the young vicencio tromp. according another version, vicencio tromp wanted owing to talk y owing to become one menaza for her ‘macamba conexion’. same the caso of pitbull cu also owing to achieve one vuelta because the also wanted owing to talk. the ‘dutch conection at aruba is pior cu cualkier organizacion of hitman sicario at world. ex –comisario van der straten together cu his amigo paul van der sloot have cu bay talk at instant cu saca the curpa of natalee. karam misier already is one paar of day overdue.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Frank on December 06, 2008, 02:28:08 AM
texasmom,

does that say what I think it says? That van der straaten knew where she was buried and moved?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:30:24 AM
Not sure what this is all about.   ::MonkeyRoll::

12/5/08 Solo Di Pueblo

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008SoloDiPuebloPg3.jpg)

Translation:
according karam misier: at november the will come saca the wesonan of natalee holloway we owing to enter december y have one people is cry for husticia

sta. cruz -- cierto sir van der straten, ex -alto comisario of police anteriormente owing to declara: “ik zal deze zaak eventjes oplossen met de flexie team” y “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul van der sloot niet aandoen”. one person dutch owing to try torpedea one investigacion cu have to did take lugar the first dianan of the suceso fateful here. but for motibo of ‘vriendjes-politiek’ owing to last 10 day first cu owing to detene the sospechoso principal, joran van der sloot. at bonaire two cabez of police owing to cay at instant cu they not owing to atende the caso of marilies van der kouwe the first two dianan. here at aruba we was have one such van der straten, cu owing to fracasa, owing to torpedea y owing to hinca aruba in one bad mal spot, for his incompetencia y owing to proposito. karam misier owing to tell cu at november the will come saca the wesonan of the child muher natalee holloway. according karam the know good where nh is bury y the know also at home of that natalee was scondi. also the know where el’a die y kendenan owing to mutila his curpa for so deshaci of the curpa y bury partinan of his curpa. same also the caso here will trece one solucion cu the desaparicion of the young vicencio tromp. according another version, vicencio tromp wanted owing to talk y owing to become one menaza for her ‘macamba conexion’. same the caso of pitbull cu also owing to achieve one vuelta because the also wanted owing to talk. the ‘dutch conection at aruba is pior cu cualkier organizacion of hitman sicario at world. ex –comisario van der straten together cu his amigo paul van der sloot have cu bay talk at instant cu saca the curpa of natalee. karam misier already is one paar of day overdue.

TM..
sounds like RTrtrfvvbfr nhhree bghuit nhtfl kr p greek to me...I don't know greek. ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  I know what you mean Billb!
I don't put a lot of stock into what Anita's spiritual advisor (sexual healer, per Johan  ::MonkeyHaHa::) has to say, but I found it interesting because of the other cases mentioned too.  RE:  Pitbull & Tromp


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:33:25 AM
texasmom,

does that say what I think it says? That van der straaten knew where she was buried and moved?

I think so Frank, and also at what house she was "scondi" whatever that means.   ::MonkeyConfused::

I think this guy could be full of crap, and a relative of the Kalpoes too.  JMO


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:36:12 AM
That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Van der Straten knew all of those things.
 ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: billb's daughter on December 06, 2008, 02:39:00 AM
Not sure what this is all about.   ::MonkeyRoll::

12/5/08 Solo Di Pueblo

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/12052008SoloDiPuebloPg3.jpg)

Translation:
according karam misier: at november the will come saca the wesonan of natalee holloway we owing to enter december y have one people is cry for husticia

sta. cruz -- cierto sir van der straten, ex -alto comisario of police anteriormente owing to declara: “ik zal deze zaak eventjes oplossen met de flexie team” y “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul van der sloot niet aandoen”. one person dutch owing to try torpedea one investigacion cu have to did take lugar the first dianan of the suceso fateful here. but for motibo of ‘vriendjes-politiek’ owing to last 10 day first cu owing to detene the sospechoso principal, joran van der sloot. at bonaire two cabez of police owing to cay at instant cu they not owing to atende the caso of marilies van der kouwe the first two dianan. here at aruba we was have one such van der straten, cu owing to fracasa, owing to torpedea y owing to hinca aruba in one bad mal spot, for his incompetencia y owing to proposito. karam misier owing to tell cu at november the will come saca the wesonan of the child muher natalee holloway. according karam the know good where nh is bury y the know also at home of that natalee was scondi. also the know where el’a die y kendenan owing to mutila his curpa for so deshaci of the curpa y bury partinan of his curpa. same also the caso here will trece one solucion cu the desaparicion of the young vicencio tromp. according another version, vicencio tromp wanted owing to talk y owing to become one menaza for her ‘macamba conexion’. same the caso of pitbull cu also owing to achieve one vuelta because the also wanted owing to talk. the ‘dutch conection at aruba is pior cu cualkier organizacion of hitman sicario at world. ex –comisario van der straten together cu his amigo paul van der sloot have cu bay talk at instant cu saca the curpa of natalee. karam misier already is one paar of day overdue.

TM..
sounds like RTrtrfvvbfr nhhree bghuit nhtfl kr p greek to me...I don't know greek. ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  I know what you mean Billb!
I don't put a lot of stock into what Anita's spiritual advisor (sexual healer, per Johan  ::MonkeyHaHa::) has to say, but I found it interesting because of the other cases mentioned too.  RE:  Pitbull & Tromp
all the other cases....says so much about aruba...We, as Americans, don't have a clue of the mindset of working class folks and the governments in 3rd world countries...Monkeys see right through the 3rd grade deception but unfortunately, Americans only shake their heads. They don't realize the power (or are too lasy to question then act) of analytical thought and application of same can make a difference...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:58:37 AM
Not sure what this is all about.   ::MonkeyRoll::

12/5/08 Solo Di Pueblo

TM..
sounds like RTrtrfvvbfr nhhree bghuit nhtfl kr p greek to me...I don't know greek. ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  I know what you mean Billb!
I don't put a lot of stock into what Anita's spiritual advisor (sexual healer, per Johan  ::MonkeyHaHa::) has to say, but I found it interesting because of the other cases mentioned too.  RE:  Pitbull & Tromp

CORRECTION:  I think I got my Misier's mixed up...The sexual healer's name is Prasand Baidjnath Misier, maybe Karem is the psychic?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 06, 2008, 04:15:50 AM
Not sure what this is all about.   ::MonkeyRoll::

12/5/08 Solo Di Pueblo

TM..
sounds like RTrtrfvvbfr nhhree bghuit nhtfl kr p greek to me...I don't know greek. ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  I know what you mean Billb!
I don't put a lot of stock into what Anita's spiritual advisor (sexual healer, per Johan  ::MonkeyHaHa::) has to say, but I found it interesting because of the other cases mentioned too.  RE:  Pitbull & Tromp

CORRECTION:  I think I got my Misier's mixed up...The sexual healer's name is Prasand Baidjnath Misier, maybe Karem is the psychic?


kbm?

Maybe Rob has more?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 04:24:21 AM
Who was the primary connection to Marcos in Venezuela?  When did Marcos enter the scene with his information about Natalee on the beach?  Who would have made the arrangements for Tim to connect with the embassy and travel to Nicaragua?
Dave Holloway
snip

This bizarre story originated in the central American nation of Nicaragua.

It happened last month, when Natalee’s father Dave received a message from a man who called himself Marcos. He said he had important information about where they could find Natalee's body.

Dave Holloway: He said, "I’d done some wrongs in my past," and he said, "This is my way of making all of my wrongs and all of my sins and doing something right."

Dave was skeptical, but the phone and e-mail messages continued.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/6/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 04:40:02 AM
Can we talk about those pic from 12/30/07 again?  This really has me scratching my head.  Who provided the pic with the time stamp of 15:40?  If that pic was taken with the same ROV that took the 15:39 thumbs down pic, how did they not see the 15:40 pic back on the Persistance?
TIME STAMP  15:39
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)
TIME STAMP  15:43
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/TIMANDCONTROLS.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/bullshit.jpg)



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: blah on December 06, 2008, 06:54:09 AM
DECEMBER 30

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/3divers.jpg)




Blonde - the photograph of the three divers was taken at 3:38 on the 30th.  Do we have a time stamp on the other cage photographs for the same day?

Yes I did these screen shots myself

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/diversinwater.jpg)

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/thumsdown.jpg)

All here
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20




The ROV is controlled from someone onboard the ship.  Is it my imagination or is the angle of the camera on the ROV being set so the lens does not pan on the left side of the cage where the reamins, shoe, and skirt are located?
On the ship it's a Slanted Screen this is  NOT Tim Miller hand but tim was standing next to him
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/point.jpg)

VIDEO   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23302471#23302581

In th beginning of this video, the skull-like object appears ON TOP of the cage.  The date on the screen is 12/29/07 and time is 17:32


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 08:19:30 AM
I remember Karam Misier (Karamchanderperkash Baidjnathmisier )'s original radio "vision", back in July 2005.  Stole this from RU:


Reaver
  PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:31 pm         

Interview with Surinamese Yoga Grand Master in Curacao
Hello,

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before. But today on the local news program "Telenoticia" on Telearuba, there was sort of a recapitulation of the Natalee case. Maybe some other posters can back me up here. There was a fragment of a Curacao television program called "Moru Bon Dia" which I believe was aired in juli 2005.

This Yoga Grand Master said that:
* Natalee was dead.
* And he was sure that after 1 year still no one will find her.
* She is not under sand
* The murderer is a white American but aided by a black (native) Aruban. [Zwarte Arubaan]
* They weren't planning to kill her, but during the rape something went wrong.
* They hit her with a stone in the head
* There are two other witnesses who take pills everyday.
* The mother (BHT) knows more that she is saying.
* He spoke to NH and other indians (spirits) who begged him to help the girl (NH) to the other world.
* He won't say anything else, he will leave it to the witnesses and the mother
* He don't trust the local authorities, he trust the dutch marines
* He knows where the body is


Think we debated whether he said white man or American....


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 08:32:03 AM
In my opinion Tim says Bullshit this is the shit part I screen captured
 So  was he dissapointed OR he doesn't believe them. 

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/bullshit.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 08:42:21 AM
texasmom,

does that say what I think it says? That van der straaten knew where she was buried and moved?

I think so Frank, and also at what house she was "scondi" whatever that means.   ::MonkeyConfused::

I think this guy could be full of crap, and a relative of the Kalpoes too.  JMO
escondi = abscond ??????


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MumInOhio on December 06, 2008, 08:48:19 AM
WhiskeyGirl…where are you?

Were both dives the same time length?  Do we even know this?  How deep were they diving? How long would their tanks last? How long did it take for them to get down to the cage? How long to get back? Who watches the clock, the divers or some-one on board? What is the signal to come up?

BTW...Good Morning!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 08:49:30 AM
In my opinion Tim says Bullshit this is the shit part I screen captured
 So  was he dissapointed OR he doesn't believe them. 

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/bullshit.jpg)
I opined last night that "Bull S_ _ _" usually means you don't BELIEVE the person.
Plain "S_ _ _" or "F_ _ _" means you are disappointed.
He clearly mouthed "Bull S _  _ _ ".



{{edit for spelling I was still sleeping}}


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZSunny on December 06, 2008, 09:00:35 AM
In my opinion Tim says Bullshit this is the shit part I screen captured
 So  was he dissapointed OR he donen't believe them. 

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/bullshit.jpg)
I opined last night that "Bull S_ _ _" usually means you don't BELIEVE the person.
Plain "S_ _ _" or "F_ _ _" means you are disappointed.
He clearly mouthed "Bull S _  _ _ ".

I agree Wreck,  and then they made sure he was off the ship for the retriveal dive.  Something is just not right here. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 09:25:01 AM
Who did "Dateline" pay the rights fee to accompany the Persistence? How much did they pay?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 09:27:54 AM
Obviously, one camera was filming the dive sequence on the 30th while a second camera, or the ROV, was filming the contents of the trap.  In the dive sequence, the divers are giving a thumbs down.  Tim Miller is onboard saying Bull$hit, and another camera is filming the actual contents within two minutes of the divers giving a thumbs down.  Whoever was operating the camera for the dive sequence, directed the focus away from the left side of the cage where there were obviously human remains, a skirt, and a sneaker.  On the 29th the day before, the cage contents had also been filmed and it appeared that there was a skull and other objects in the photographs.  Whoever was operating the dive sequence on the 30th knew exactly what to avoid filming.  Images from the 30th were later mathematically evaluated by Kyle with an overlay of Natalee's body.  The findings were accurate to within one inch.  Meanwhile, Tim miller had been told that there was no evidence in the trap.  Tim was then considered a "liability".

I am just sick about all of this.  I have never even been a supporter of Natalee being in the ocean, but Kyle's overlay and mathematical calculations are pretty convincing.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 09:44:09 AM
On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 09:49:44 AM
sta. cruz -- cierto sir van der straten, ex -alto comisario of police anteriormente owing to declara: “ik zal deze zaak eventjes oplossen met de flexie team” y “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul van der sloot niet aandoen”. one person dutch owing to try torpedea one investigacion cu have to did take lugar the first dianan of the suceso fateful here. but for motibo of ‘vriendjes-politiek’ owing to last 10 day first cu owing to detene the sospechoso principal, joran van der sloot. at bonaire two cabez of police owing to cay at instant cu they not owing to atende the caso of marilies van der kouwe the first two dianan. here at aruba we was have one such van der straten, cu owing to fracasa, owing to torpedea y owing to hinca aruba in one bad mal spot, for his incompetencia y owing to proposito. karam misier owing to tell cu at november the will come saca the wesonan of the child muher natalee holloway. according karam the know good where nh is bury y the know also at home of that natalee was scondi. also the know where el’a die y kendenan owing to mutila his curpa for so deshaci of the curpa y bury partinan of his curpa. same also the caso here will trece one solucion cu the desaparicion of the young vicencio tromp. according another version, vicencio tromp wanted owing to talk y owing to become one menaza for her ‘macamba conexion’. same the caso of pitbull cu also owing to achieve one vuelta because the also wanted owing to talk. the ‘dutch conection at aruba is pior cu cualkier organizacion of hitman sicario at world. ex –comisario van der straten together cu his amigo paul van der sloot have cu bay talk at instant cu saca the curpa of natalee. karam misier already is one paar of day overdue.


Gee, wonder if Kawish told him.   ::MonkeyRoll::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 09:58:57 AM
I have just noticed something else.  Kyle has admitted that he was aware that a skirt was located in the cage and was sampled.  We have been led to believe that the contents of the cage were bagged and removed by ALE who came and left in their own dive boat.  How could Kyle have sampled the contents of the cage and the skirt, if ALE confiscated them and took them away without the involvement of the Americans?  This horrific story just keeps getting worse.

*******************
From Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 10:01:03 AM
On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 10:04:18 AM
Who did "Dateline" pay the rights fee to accompany the Persistence? How much did they pay?




Good question Wreck, and I'll bet it was big bucks.  ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 10:19:50 AM
On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.




Klaas - these are my exact questions.  We have been told that ALE were the bad guys who confiscated everything and took it away.  They obviously bagged everything in order to bring it all to the surface because we can see the bags in the photographs.  What happened to it after that?  Did the Persistence crew actually take part in examining the cage contents?  Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage.  These are Kyle's own words and not someone's supposition.  Kyle has stated it was a denim skirt.  Did he actually see the skirt?  It would be difficult to identify blue fabric as being denim just from a photograph.  It would also be difficult to identify a piece of fabric as a skirt if it had been buried under the sand as Kyle described or as it was in the bag.  Monkeys looking at the fabric in the bag couldn't idenitfy it and actually thought it was a hat.  My interpretation is that Kyle did see and sample the items after they were brought to the surface, based on his own statements.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 10:24:30 AM
Klaas - Kyle also told Kermit that the light color on the blue fabric (evident in the evidence bags) was discoloration due to decay or decomposition.  I am now wondering how he knew this, if he hadn't examined the fabric himself.  Can you find that post from Kermit where Kyle discussed the discoloration on the skirt?  I have no idea where it is.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 10:27:34 AM
Klaas - Kyle also told Kermit that the light color on the blue fabric (evident in the evidence bags) was discoloration due to decay or decomposition.  I am now wondering how he knew this, if he hadn't examined the fabric himself.  Can you find that post from Kermit where Kyle discussed the discoloration on the skirt?  I have no idea where it is.

I am not an expert, but looking at the center top of each picture we've seen there is a number 93.6 f, for example, which is probably the depth the ROV took the image....I just checked Blonde's thread 'The Search for Natalee' and especially on page 2, can see dive photos with the same depth stamp.  If so, the cage was not bone dry, and the zip lock bags were in the cage at that depth, imo.

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/2345013517_79c1edfb78_o3.jpg)


Bag at 300%
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/bagat30.jpg)

To me it also looks like a cap police or military. I see also a star but could be a badge. The trouble with analyzing these they remind me of someones post on the plastic bags where you can see a face and a body. In these just below the cap I also see a face. A sweet face. Not a face that has been in the water for 3 years.
I see optical illusions everywhere though.

Hey San , Thanks for telling Klaas about my post. Looks like she fixed it for me.

Sam


Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.





Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 10:46:44 AM
On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.




Klaas - these are my exact questions.  We have been told that ALE were the bad guys who confiscated everything and took it away.  They obviously bagged everything in order to bring it all to the surface because we can see the bags in the photographs.  What happened to it after that?  Did the Persistence crew actually take part in examining the cage contents?  Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage.  These are Kyle's own words and not someone's supposition.  Kyle has stated it was a denim skirt.  Did he actually see the skirt?  It would be difficult to identify blue fabric as being denim just from a photograph.  It would also be difficult to identify a piece of fabric as a skirt if it had been buried under the sand as Kyle described or as it was in the bag.  Monkeys looking at the fabric in the bag couldn't idenitfy it and actually thought it was a hat.  My interpretation is that Kyle did see and sample the items after they were brought to the surface, based on his own statements.

Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage. 
Just maybe he kept a peice
.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 10:48:12 AM
Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 10:49:18 AM
Blonde - either that or at the time Kyle didn't want it known that they didn't actually gather anything, that it was only ALE.  Maybe Kermit or Kyle can clarify?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 10:51:10 AM
Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 10:52:46 AM
On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.




Klaas - these are my exact questions.  We have been told that ALE were the bad guys who confiscated everything and took it away.  They obviously bagged everything in order to bring it all to the surface because we can see the bags in the photographs.  What happened to it after that?  Did the Persistence crew actually take part in examining the cage contents?  Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage.  These are Kyle's own words and not someone's supposition.  Kyle has stated it was a denim skirt.  Did he actually see the skirt?  It would be difficult to identify blue fabric as being denim just from a photograph.  It would also be difficult to identify a piece of fabric as a skirt if it had been buried under the sand as Kyle described or as it was in the bag.  Monkeys looking at the fabric in the bag couldn't idenitfy it and actually thought it was a hat.  My interpretation is that Kyle did see and sample the items after they were brought to the surface, based on his own statements.

Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage. 
Just maybe he kept a peice
.




I don't think anything would surprise me at this point.  This story is getting sicker by the day.  How could they just hand all of that evidence over to ALE and deny that they had found anything???  And, sit silently by when our FBI was sent a piece of nothing?   ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 11:07:22 AM
Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   ::MonkeyConfused::




I don't know Klaas.  I'm starting to be concerned about legal ramifications.  Is Natalee's disappearance an official FBI investigation?  Did the crew of Persistence interfere with an FBI investigation?  Is NBC complicit in any of this?  Did they or didn't they know what was in the left side of the cage?  They must have known at least by February when Kyle admittedly attempted to broker photographs of a crime scene.  The remains may have been located in Aruban waters, but it's becoming pretty obvious that the remains were those of an American citizen, the cage was a crime scene, and Persistence was an American vessel.  Obviously, the FBI has this information now, but I have no idea where the implications from all of this could lead.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 11:26:51 AM
Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."
Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."



This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 11:31:00 AM
Thoughts please
Student News
Congratulations to Weihan Chan, a graduate work-study student in Sybil Seitzinger's lab, for being awarded a Phillip Alampi Scholarship.
Grant Law presented his paper, "Introducing a new spatially discrete resource limited individual-based model," at the inaugural meeting of the Northeast Evolution & Ecology Conference (NEEC) on April 12 - 13, 2003.
Undergraduate Research Fellow Kyle Kingman working with faculty advisor Peter Rona presented a poster on his senior honors thesis, "Cenozoic rates and patterns of deposition on the U.S. Atlantic continental margin in the Hudson Canyon region," at a dinner convened by Vice President for Undergraduate Education Susan Forman on April 23rd.

Congratulations
Thomas "Motz" Grothues and his wife Gabrielle had their second child, a baby girl, born Monday April 7. Nathalie Michelle was 20" and weighed 7 lb. 1 oz. Everyone is well. Older brother Christopher not too sure.



http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:e-oTrUmwP7oJ:marine.rutgers.edu/news/04-30-2003.html+Kyle+Kingman+has+a+new+baby+girl&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 11:33:00 AM
Sorry if this is already posted, but I find it very interesting.

++++++++++

Holloway-case messed up by nepotism


4 Dec, 2008, 10:08 (GMT -04:00)
ORANJESTAD -- Jan van der Straten has messed up the investigation in the first ten days after it got out that the American teenager Natalee Holloway had disappeared.  He helped his ‘friend’ Paul van der Sloot to protect his suspected son Joran.

Wait till retirement
“I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open”, continues the minister.  “But the time has come to tell the truth.  When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally:  ‘I can’t let this happen to my friend Paul’.  And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot.”

According to Croes, Van der Straten has perhaps consciously deployed the so-called flexiteam after the disappearance of Natalee.  “He said in May 2005: ‘I can solve this with my flexiteam’.  As everybody knows, the flexiteam was a team that was put into action when the regular police team was over-occupied; for example during carnival.
A detective could be included in the team, but it was no police-team that was capable of doing an investigation.  Why didn’t he call in the taya-team (police officers with a lot of expertise and experience – red.)?”

There are more things that went wrong.  “Why was a beach-bum accused at that time, who has been a choller before?  He had supposedly done it, while internally it was known that he hadn’t done it.  Very special is also the fact that the Dutch language was used during Joran’s interrogation, while he is fluent in Papiamento, same as our detective.  Our people could have done their work much better if the conversations were done in their own language.  Why was he so privileged?  Simply because it were ‘Dutch-friends’; all three of them: Joran, Paul, and Jan.  Don’t forget that a Dutch minister had asked me at that time not to mention that Joran is a European Dutch citizen.  I won’t say who this person is, but if by any chance I have to mention his name, I definitely will.  We felt abandoned by the Netherlands when Aruba was so devastated by the case.   I have told this to the Dutch premier Balkenende, state secretary Bijleveld (Kingdom Relations), and minister Hirsch-Ballin (Justice).  But until now, everybody has remained quit and has let the world besmear Aruba’s name.  They abandoned us and let us suffer.”

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot.  He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans.  “Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?  In the case of Marlies van der Kouwe in Bonaire, police officers were taken off the case because they have failed.  I challenge Van der Straten and Paul van der Sloot to come up with clarifications, so that Aruba’s name can be cleared from this mess (porkeria).

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 11:33:17 AM
Like I have been saying since February that I thought Natalee was found. I also believed at the time our FBI KNEW of everything from Dec. 29th on. For me, this is where it all boils down -- WHEN did the FBI finally gain access (or at least knowledge of) to EVERYTHING in that trap! If it wasn't until March or later -- we have a serious problem.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZSunny on December 06, 2008, 11:36:22 AM
Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."



This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)

So does the highlighted comment by Kyle say that there was NEVER ANY OF THE RECOVERED EVIDENCE ON THE PERSISTENCE??  If that is the case, where did all of the observations by kyle regarding the fabric come from, just the pictures?? 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 11:37:11 AM
I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?
Good question TS2.
I haven't seen the dateline video.....are they all just screen shots, or a running video projected on the on board monitors?
TS2...
OK, I see we both just watch the dateline video that Klaas so kindly presented....
Based on the video, i stand by my comments......
Dateline got screen shots only and the pics of possible remains were from the ROV cameras directly....
To me, it explains the circumstances and I don't see anything odd about the pics from 15:40 (ROV SHOT) to 15:43 (screen capture)...
I hope that clears up your concerns.

No, actually it solidifies my concerns.  The issue of when or what Dateline showed on their broadcast is meaningless except that we know they were on the boat and looking at the monitors.  That did provide us with a timeline for the dive.  What is at issue, for me, is the 15:40 shot is the one many us of us have believed shows human remains.  The shot taken 60 seconds after a thumbs down on the contents of the trap.  Whether Dateline showed it on TV is of no relevance.  What is important is people on the Persistence HAD to see it.  Tim Miller HAD to see it.  They were still looking at the monitors 3 minutes later.  So...why the thumbs down?  Are we really seeing human remains?  Much like 'zoo keeper' is not the same as 'zoo geeper'???

If what we are seeing is a shot of human remains...any NOBODY acknowledged it at that time...well, you can do the math on that one.

If what we are seeing is not a shot of human remains...but now someone is looking back and trying to make sense out of what they are seeing...well, I can understand the desire to find Natalee could encourage someone to take a closer look.  But is that conclusive?

Also, back to the 'sale' of the images to networks...has anyone asked Dateline to go back and look at their raw footage from that show to see if that shot ever appeared on the monitors that day?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 11:40:04 AM
Good Morning Monkeys

Did Kermit ever reveal who the "experts" are?

Janet
______

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #664 on: December 04, 2008, 09:57:40 PM »


According to the experts, YES she was in the cage.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg566860#msg566860


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 11:40:39 AM
Thoughts please
Student News
Congratulations to Weihan Chan, a graduate work-study student in Sybil Seitzinger's lab, for being awarded a Phillip Alampi Scholarship.
Grant Law presented his paper, "Introducing a new spatially discrete resource limited individual-based model," at the inaugural meeting of the Northeast Evolution & Ecology Conference (NEEC) on April 12 - 13, 2003.
Undergraduate Research Fellow Kyle Kingman working with faculty advisor Peter Rona presented a poster on his senior honors thesis, "Cenozoic rates and patterns of deposition on the U.S. Atlantic continental margin in the Hudson Canyon region," at a dinner convened by Vice President for Undergraduate Education Susan Forman on April 23rd.

Congratulations
Thomas "Motz" Grothues and his wife Gabrielle had their second child, a baby girl, born Monday April 7. Nathalie Michelle was 20" and weighed 7 lb. 1 oz. Everyone is well. Older brother Christopher not too sure.



http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:e-oTrUmwP7oJ:marine.rutgers.edu/news/04-30-2003.html+Kyle+Kingman+has+a+new+baby+girl&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

This article you found is from 2003...how about this one, which was prior to Kyle annoucing the birth of his daughter:

http://liquidchurch.typepad.com/big_hair_preacher/2008/01/baby-boom-at-li.html
(snipped)
Here are some expecting couples I'm praying for:

- Tim & Alex Purnell (Tim's one of the drummers in our Worship Band)
- Gerry & Sandi Piazza (Gerry runs Security & Sandi is part of our staff)
- Steve & Susan Yarad (Our Aussie friends... www.steveandsusan.blogspot.com)
- Jake & Emily Schlenker (fellow Devils fans!)
- John & Jess Maravich (Life Group leaders)
- Kyle & Gail Kingman (Kyle's an oceanographer and this is baby #2 for them)
- Pete & Rebekah Goode (NC Liquidites)
- Elise & Peter Klimchuk  (prayers for Elise on bed rest)
- Brian & Karin Capra (in the Gregory's Life Group)

Brace yourselves, Lil' Liquid nursery workers!  I'm sure there are more (these are literally just the few that came to mind as a I write).  Please join me in praying for each family-- for health, safety, & peace of mind as they prepare to have their worlds rocked.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 11:43:55 AM
Like I have been saying since February that I thought Natalee was found. I also believed at the time our FBI KNEW of everything from Dec. 29th on. For me, this is where it all boils down -- WHEN did the FBI finally gain access (or at least knowledge of) to EVERYTHING in that trap! If it wasn't until March or later -- we have a serious problem.




Kermit can probably answer that, because I understood that Kermit was the one who turned Kyle's photographs over to Beth and the FBI.  I think the FBI did have the photographs of the trap from a distance, that were taken on 12/29, because these were the ones that were released to Dave and Robin.  It is my understanding that Kyle did not give the 12/30 detailed photographs to the FBI.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 11:45:59 AM
Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."



This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)

So does the highlighted comment by Kyle say that there was NEVER ANY OF THE RECOVERED EVIDENCE ON THE PERSISTENCE??  If that is the case, where did all of the observations by kyle regarding the fabric come from, just the pictures?? 

Guess that's exactly why Tim's liability was on my mind.  All of these quotes can be  ::MonkeyConfused::  I can't answer your question, AZSunny. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 11:47:03 AM
Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."



This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)

So does the highlighted comment by Kyle say that there was NEVER ANY OF THE RECOVERED EVIDENCE ON THE PERSISTENCE??  If that is the case, where did all of the observations by kyle regarding the fabric come from, just the pictures?? 




AZSunny - this is exactly what I was saying one page back.  I don't see who he could have identified a denim skirt and the stain without seeing the skirt.  It had been buried under sand and then bunched up in a bag.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 11:51:35 AM
Good Morning Monkeys

Did Kermit ever reveal who the "experts" are?

Janet
______

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #664 on: December 04, 2008, 09:57:40 PM »


According to the experts, YES she was in the cage.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg566860#msg566860






Janet, I think Kermit was referring to Kyle, himself, as at least one expert.


From Kermit

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 12:08:56 PM
Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   ::MonkeyConfused::

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 12:11:49 PM
The following is the third updated compilation of quotes derived from emails communication between Kermit and Kyle.

Janet
________


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: march 18, 2008: If you want, you can get Red from SM off my back. I really don't like that guy. He thinks he knows what's going on but doesn't have a clue. I first saw the pics on the SM home page and fired off an email to Red believing that he would be understanding and help provide answers. I quickly found out what happened on my own and dealt with it. I could not believe his response.

~Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM
»

From Kyle: None of us gave any statements to the authorities after the 29th. It's possible John Silvetti did, because he was the only one conversing with them after Jan 7th.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »


From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #888 on: Today at 02:43:35 AM »


Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564718#msg564718


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."

Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"

Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"

Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #903 on: Today at 03:12:23 AM »


Kyle said: "Schafer is sue crazy."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564766;topicseen#msg564766


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #883 on: Today at 02:39:52 AM »


Kyle said: " We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564707#msg564707


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »


Kyle said: "The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »


Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #888 on: Today at 02:43:35 AM »


Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564718#msg564718


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: Today at 07:06:45 PM
»

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #882 on: Today at 02:36:28 AM »


Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday. Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564701;topicseen#msg564701


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #802 on: December 02, 2008, 05:16:26 PM »


Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564125;topicseen#msg564125


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #642 on: November 25, 2008, 10:12:27 PM »


May 8, 2008 = from Kyle: John Silvetti told me today that he may be returning to Aruba very soon for a few days.

May 19, 2008 = from Kyle:
"I couldn't get the logs from the Persistence. All things "Holloway" were stripped from the boat once it got back to Louisiana

JUNE 10, 2008 = from Kyle:
He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557914;topicseen#msg557914


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #635 on: November 25, 2008, 10:06:58 PM »


from Kyle: "It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557906;topicseen#msg557906


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #663 on: Today at 09:55:44 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg566856;topicseen#msg566856


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #275 on: December 05, 2008, 07:05:44 PM »


Kyle said: "Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.
- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line.

Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568246;topicseen#msg568246


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #524 on: December 05, 2008, 11:59:23 PM


kyle stated: "Richardson was onboard the Persistence several times and attended the meetings on the boat. You may see a glimpse of him on the Dateline video in the survey room along with Mos standing over my shoulder.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568677;topicseen#msg568677


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:16:38 PM

Well, I'm a part-time monkey poster (I lurk more often than I post) and this time sequence seems more questionable than many things that have garnered pages of monkey posts.

How was that time sequence possible?  When you compare the quality of the 15:40 pic with the others it seems as though the others were from a video image and the 15:40 was from a camera.  Who would have been using a camera down there at that time?  Or, were there two ROV's?




I think there was only one ROV onboard, so what you are saying would probably indicate a fourth diver or photographer.  I am not knowledgeable about cameras.  What is really important are the timestamps on those photographs because it places everyone both on the ship and in the ocean at strategic places.

So do we really know how many ROV's were operating during that dive?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 12:18:05 PM
Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   ::MonkeyConfused::

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

Good point...I had forgotten about that JQK comment.  It's maddening.   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Also, BlueMoonofKY....Leona Helmsley (sp?) left her $ to her cat.   ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 12:22:11 PM
Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   ::MonkeyConfused::

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

Good point...I had forgotten about that JQK comment.  It's maddening.   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Also, BlueMoonofKY....Leona Helmsley (sp?) left her $ to her cat.   ::MonkeyWink::

Didn't forget about that did you? ::MonkeyLaugh::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 12:26:15 PM
Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   ::MonkeyConfused::

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.




Blue Moon - great reference!  I have pretty much been a believer that Natalee was buried on land, but after Kyle's calculations, I don't think so anymore.  Kyle is a trained oceanographer and he has been taught how to make those calculations of objects on the ocean floor.  Kyle's calculations are actually the first piece of scientific data that we have after three and a half years.  I wonder if it would be too much of a stretch to hope that the release of the cage photographs somehow has forced Rudy's hand???  They can't deny any longer that something was in the cage.  There are photographs to prove the lie.  Whether or not they have destroyed the actual cage contents remains to be seen.  If the evidence has been destroyed, Richardson and Mos could also be in trouble along with Paulass and Uncle Jan.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 06, 2008, 12:26:52 PM
Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #524 on: December 05, 2008, 11:59:23 PM

kyle stated: "Richardson was onboard the Persistence several times and attended the meetings on the boat. You may see a glimpse of him on the Dateline video in the survey room along with Mos standing over my shoulder.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568677;topicseen#msg568677

"The effort was superb,but the game was fixed"

After all this time.Why the F@#K would you allow these SINISTER people in on your meetings?????????????


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 12:27:23 PM
"Natalee is below the sands of Aruba '  

ENSCHEDE / ARUBA - Normally he drives from ghosts in cer-Dutch houses, but in recent months have psychic Muijtstege Bert and his' medium-girlfriend 'seized by a relentless search for Natalee Holloway.
 
The beach in Aruba.
(http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00142/aruba_strand_hollow_142867h.jpg)
,, I see the shape of her body under the sand of the beach in Aruba.''

Since last Friday digs the girlfriend of the Enschede (Meium)psychic with a small team on the tropical beach. With borrowed shovels, they come to one meter depth on the spot Muijtstege appointed. ,, I saw the print of her body in a photo with palm trees near a hotel in Aruba.''

Muijtstege examine their own words' from early morning until late into the night 'the material that he has a photographer from Curacao to shoot on the island. Then after "thorough analysis certainty" about the place where Natalee he is, he hesitated a moment and organized an expedition. With his own money. 'My girlfriend has three locations examined. By 'commuting' with the help of a mountain chain with crystal on the beach, it provides the place and they go digging.''

Despite the optimism of Muijtstege is Natalee after a week of digging still not above water. , "We are not deep enough. By police and obstruction of justice in Aruba. We were not even marketing ribbons.''

You would be despondent. ,, We have a lot of costs, I estimate around 60,000 euros. My friend is dead unfortunate, but they must return to the Netherlands.''That does not mean the end of his emotional quest. ,, It is a temporary interruption. In the spring we go back and then we find her.''Justice in Aruba does not respond.

(http://www.kovandijkvertelt.nl/wp-content/2008/12/schatgraven.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 12:28:38 PM

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)



Tim Miller was a liability because he had already seen the ROV image of the cage prior to the dive to retrieve the contents and ... was convinced he saw a skull ... 99% convinced.

In the beginning ... Tim Miller/TES was an asset in regards to raising funds for the endeavor that ... in actuality ... had nothing to do with justice for Natalee Holloway.  It had everything to do with a search and destroy mission to further the Aruban coverup that began on the morning of May 30, 2005 and ... Tim Miller and Kyle were pawns in a "game that was fixed" before it had even begun..

IMO

Janet

+++++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:40:48 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 12:41:17 PM

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)



Tim Miller was a liability because he had already seen the ROV image of the cage prior to the dive to retrieve the contents and ... was convinced he saw a skull ... 99% convinced.

In the beginning ... Tim Miller/TES was an asset in regards to raising funds for the endeavor that ... in actuality ... had nothing to do with justice for Natalee Holloway.  It had everything to do with a search and destroy mission to further the Aruban coverup that began on the morning of May 30, 2005 and ... Tim Miller and Kyle were pawns in a "game that was fixed" before it had even begun..

IMO

Janet

+++++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120






Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 12:42:12 PM

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)


I believe that Tim Miller was brought into the Persistence undertaking after Louis Shaeffer  contacted Dave Holloway.

Considering there were no TES volunteers involved ... I tend to think that Tim Miller (TES)  was "used" by Louis Shaeffer and/or John Silvetti as an end to a means ... the means to raise funds for an "Aruban" endeavor that had nothing to do with justice for Natalee Holloway.

IMO

Janet
_______


FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007


COLBY:  Tim, why are they (Arubans) standing in your way?

MILLER: I don't think they can stand in our way. With the equipment we got and if we have to go in off of Venezuela. Whereever we need to go into, we've got the equipment. In fact they are more than welcome to be on the ship with us. The ships that we are taking over are a 265 foot ship and a 340 foot ship which have all the latest technology on it. In fact the owner of this company, Louis Shaeffer of Superior Offshore International, Louis called Dave Holloway up about two months ago when I was at Louis' house. He said "Mr Holloway, I'm going to promise you something, if your daughter is in a metal container out there in that water, we are going to bring her home."


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 12:46:37 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



IMO it's all a chess game and I don't think for a minute JQK believes Natalee is alive nor do I believe he thinks she was sold.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 12:46:41 PM
Just a possibility here......
I don't think Dateline sent more than one or two cameramen.
The piece was put together back in NY.
The cameraman was sent off with Tim and Dave to find Marcos
due to footage we have seen.
Could it be that the Persistence Crew sent the ROV footage
to NY after the cameramen were back in NY to edit the piece
and only sent what they wanted them to see?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:47:27 PM




Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

I understand why you say that, but...if Tim was so sure why would he leave and go to Nicarauga to meet Marcos in an effort to locate a body that he believed he had already found?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 12:50:15 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



IMO it's all a chess game and I don't think for a minute JQK believes Natalee is alive nor do I believe he thinks she was sold.

Well...Okay.  I think I will leave all options open ... for now.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 12:53:51 PM

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)



Tim Miller was a liability because he had already seen the ROV image of the cage prior to the dive to retrieve the contents and ... was convinced he saw a skull ... 99% convinced.

In the beginning ... Tim Miller/TES was an asset in regards to raising funds for the endeavor that ... in actuality ... had nothing to do with justice for Natalee Holloway.  It had everything to do with a search and destroy mission to further the Aruban coverup that began on the morning of May 30, 2005 and ... Tim Miller and Kyle were pawns in a "game that was fixed" before it had even begun..

IMO

Janet

+++++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120




Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

SS ... Tim Miller has been forthright and open regarding what he is sure he observed in that footage.  I have not read anything that implies that Tim is in possession of that footage.  Until the images appeared on the internet ... Tim would have no proof regarding what he claims he saw.  However ... her now has affirmation.

Kermit claims that the Dave, Beth and the FBI are now in possession of all the ROV images.

Janet

_______


Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008


And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
<snipped>

Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure."  He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 12:56:48 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr


I heard that too. I can only surmize JQK was posturing to at least put pressure on Aruba (knowing full well - they BOTH know she is dead.) They could not "ignore" the possibility she is alive - thus forcing their hand! (Does that make sense?  ::MonkeyConfused::)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 12:57:34 PM




Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

I understand why you say that, but...if Tim was so sure why would he leave and go to Nicarauga to meet Marcos in an effort to locate a body that he believed he had already found?




Probably because the cage contents had been downplayed to him and he had no forensic evidence.  The Nicaragua story was played up as big.  It even involved the embassy in Nicaragua.  I think Tim was going after every possible lead.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 12:57:45 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



IMO it's all a chess game and I don't think for a minute JQK believes Natalee is alive nor do I believe he thinks she was sold.
Klaas said it better than me -- I AGREE!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: can on December 06, 2008, 12:59:27 PM




Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

I understand why you say that, but...if Tim was so sure why would he leave and go to Nicarauga to meet Marcos in an effort to locate a body that he believed he had already found?

I think that is an excellent question and sure would like to know the answer.
Is it possible that Dave really wanted to pursue this ...um lead...  wanted Tim with him...and Tim didn't want to say No to Dave. 
Possibly after that false lead, Tim consolidated the 99/9% opinion formed
after seeing the images in the cage and spoke to Dave further...
How does Dave feel about all of this...anyone know?




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 01:01:47 PM

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)



Tim Miller was a liability because he had already seen the ROV image of the cage prior to the dive to retrieve the contents and ... was convinced he saw a skull ... 99% convinced.

In the beginning ... Tim Miller/TES was an asset in regards to raising funds for the endeavor that ... in actuality ... had nothing to do with justice for Natalee Holloway.  It had everything to do with a search and destroy mission to further the Aruban coverup that began on the morning of May 30, 2005 and ... Tim Miller and Kyle were pawns in a "game that was fixed" before it had even begun..

IMO

Janet

+++++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »


Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »


Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120




Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

SS ... Tim Miller has been forthright and open regarding what he is sure he observed in that footage.  I have not read anything that implies that Tim is in possession of that footage.  Until the images appeared on the internet ... Tim would have no proof regarding what he claims he saw.  However ... her now has affirmation.

Kermit claims that the Dave, Beth and the FBI are now in possession of all the ROV images.

Janet

_______


Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008


And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
<snipped>

Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure."  He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »


Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120





My apologies Janet.  Those are my lousy typing/editing skills.  Instead of "her had the film" it should have said "he had seen the film".  I know that Tim doesn't have the ROV footage.  Thank you for catching that.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: can on December 06, 2008, 01:02:23 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr


I heard that too. I can only surmize JQK was posturing to at least put pressure on Aruba (knowing full well - they BOTH know she is dead.) They could not "ignore" the possibility she is alive - thus forcing their hand! (Does that make sense?  ::MonkeyConfused::)

It sure does, and I agree.  It's all about putting pressure on Aruba prior to the possible closing of the case.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 01:02:43 PM




Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

I understand why you say that, but...if Tim was so sure why would he leave and go to Nicarauga to meet Marcos in an effort to locate a body that he believed he had already found?

I think that is an excellent question and sure would like to know the answer.
Is it possible that Dave really wanted to pursue this ...um lead...  wanted Tim with him...and Tim didn't want to say No to Dave. 
Possibly after that false lead, Tim consolidated the 99/9% opinion formed
after seeing the images in the cage and spoke to Dave further...
How does Dave feel about all of this...anyone know?



In hind-sight or retrospect, I wonder what Tim thinks TODAY. As Red will testify -- Tim isn't going to tell anyone publicly what he thinks.  ::MonkeyNoNo::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:03:47 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



IMO it's all a chess game and I don't think for a minute JQK believes Natalee is alive nor do I believe he thinks she was sold.

Neither do I.  John Q. Kelly is not letting Joran van der Sloot to easily fade from the limelight once again just because he claims another one of his stories regarding the happenings on the the morning of May 30, 2005 is a lie.  Everytime Joran or Aruba makes another attempt to cover up the truth ... the family of Natalee Holloways is forced once again onto the roller coaster from H---.

Janet

++++

John Q. Kelly
On the Record w/ Greta
December 4, 2007


KELLY: Well, in their press release and even in conversations. I had a long discussion with him Thanksgiving morning after the arrests, and you know, he indicated that they were very confident, this new evidence they had, this incriminating evidence. And it turns out, quite frankly, that it is nothing new ...

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So you can say with 100 percent certainly there's nothing new, right?

KELLY:  I can say it with 99 percent.

<snipped>

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY ATTORNEY: Disappointing, Greta. I think it was disappointing to me and actually extraordinarily painful and almost cruel for Beth and Dave after being down there.

They'd like to get some answers and they'd like to see some progress made. And it's not fair to bring them down there with the false promises, with raised expectations, sort of a dog and pony show down there with no substance.

And it was — it just really took whatever spirit, almost, that Beth and Dave had left, went through that this weekend. It was really — it was terribly painful, for lack of a better expression.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314966,00.html




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 01:04:56 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



IMO it's all a chess game and I don't think for a minute JQK believes Natalee is alive nor do I believe he thinks she was sold.
Klaas said it better than me -- I AGREE!!

I agree with both of you!   ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:06:08 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr


I heard that too. I can only surmize JQK was posturing to at least put pressure on Aruba (knowing full well - they BOTH know she is dead.) They could not "ignore" the possibility she is alive - thus forcing their hand! (Does that make sense?  ::MonkeyConfused::)

Sure, Wreck. That can make sense, but it's not a definite.  I'm sorry if I'm ruffling any feathers here. 

I am an Analyst, by trade, for a fortune 100 company and it is second nature for me to question everything.  That's how we make things work...by validating our decisions with verifiable facts.  Yes, we do develop based on possibilities, but once the process begins we 'verify' more often than we 'suppose'.  What I have seen posted here over the last several days has not really verified anything for me yet.

For instance, in discussing the image at 15:40, we still do not how that image came to be.  Two ROV's or one?  Did it appear on the monitor or not?  Who, back on the ship saw it and when did they see it?  Tim Miller is sure it's Natalee, yet he leaves to go talk to man who says HE buried her somewhere else.  Why would he do that?  These are just a few of the questions that cannot be answered now.  Until they are...my second nature kicks in as says don't eliminate any possibility.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 01:11:58 PM




Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

I understand why you say that, but...if Tim was so sure why would he leave and go to Nicarauga to meet Marcos in an effort to locate a body that he believed he had already found?

I think that is an excellent question and sure would like to know the answer.
Is it possible that Dave really wanted to pursue this ...um lead...  wanted Tim with him...and Tim didn't want to say No to Dave. 
Possibly after that false lead, Tim consolidated the 99/9% opinion formed
after seeing the images in the cage and spoke to Dave further...
How does Dave feel about all of this...anyone know?







I don't know that Dave has said anything.  Kermit gave the second set of photographs (12/30) to Beth in March (I think) and that would have been when PI learned about them.  According to ldstlou, Hotshot, and others, Jug is saying that nothing was in the cage.  Dave and Robin obviously received the 12/29 photographs from the FBI, because Robin posted them at BFN.  I wonder if it's too big of a stretch to wonder if the reason why the photographs were posted at BFN was to expose a cover up and put pressure on ALE and the Persistence crew?????  ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:14:12 PM


Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

I understand why you say that, but...if Tim was so sure why would he leave and go to Nicarauga to meet Marcos in an effort to locate a body that he believed he had already found?

If the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti had convinced Tim Miller that the contents of the trap were not related to the Natalee Holloway case ... I believe that Tim and Dave could easily have been duped into following another lead.

Think about it.  Dave Holloway called those involved in the search efforts "heroes".  This convinces me that he trusted the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti.

Janet

++++


The search for Natalee Holloway

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


Dave Holloway: They represent heroes to me.  

To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI. For the Holloways, though, another wild ride began.

This bizarre story originated in the central American nation of Nicaragua.  

It happened last month, when Natalee’s father Dave received a message from a man who called himself Marcos. He said he had important information about where they could find Natalee's body.

Dave Holloway: He said, "I’d done some wrongs in my past," and he said, "This is my way of making all of my wrongs and all of my sins and doing something right."

Dave was skeptical, but the phone and e-mail messages continued.

In them was a wild tale involving drug runners who said that on the night Natalee disappeared someone had paid them to take her body and dump it at sea.

They agreed but instead they took her remains with them to Nicaragua and hid them on a remote strip of the Atlantic coast.

Dave Holloway: It was a little bit far-fetched for me.

Chris Hansen: What did he want in return?

Dave Holloway: He told us he didn't want anything. And that is what part I started believing in this guy. I said we've got a reward out here.

In January, Dave Holloway asked Tim Miller to head to Nicaragua to arrange for a meeting...and to Miller's surprise, Marcos showed up.

Marcos: I didn't live an, um, exemplary life. I did a lot of wrong things and maybe this is just one way of trying to even up the, the score a little bit.

Marcos wouldn't allow his face to appear on camera, but he agreed to talk to Miller and even officials from the US embassy.

Chris Hansen: And what was the person from the embassy's take?

Tim Miller: The person from the embassy said, "You know what? I think we may have something here."

Together, Miller and Marcos came up with a plan: Marcos would take a GPS receiver to the location and leave it there. Miller, accompanied by local officials would follow the signal to the location and begin to dig.

The next morning Miller's phone rang. It was Marcos. The search, he said, had been a success. But there had been a change in plans. He had the body and would bring it to them in Managua.

Marcos: Tonight before the sun is up, we will be in Managua.

Tim Miller: He says that she was wrapped in a blanket and her body fell apart. He said, "but we had to put her in two ice chests." And he actually said, "call Mr. Holloway right now and tell him I’ve got Natalee."

Chris Hansen: So what do you do?

Tim Miller: I did not call Dave Holloway to say I have the body.

Chris Hansen: You've been down that road before.

Tim Miller: I’ve been down that road before.

Chris Hansen: Did you believe him?

Tim Miller: This time, I believed him.

But after waiting all night for Marcos to appear at the arranged location -- nothing.

Marcos never appeared again and Tim Miller and Dave Holloway are convinced Marcos pulled off an incredibly cruel hoax.

Dave Holloway: How would somebody stoop so low to do something like this?

Chris Hansen: How hurtful is that, when somebody does that to you?

Dave Holloway: Very hurtful. In fact, that was -- it's a wonders I’ve not had a major heart attack and died, you know.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:15:02 PM


I don't know that Dave has said anything.  Kermit gave the second set of photographs (12/30) to Beth in March (I think) and that would have been when PI learned about them.  According to ldstlou, Hotshot, and others, Jug is saying that nothing was in the cage.  Dave and Robin obviously received the 12/29 photographs from the FBI, because Robin posted them at BFN.  I wonder if it's too big of a stretch to wonder if the reason why the photographs were posted at BFN was to expose a cover up and put pressure on ALE and the Persistence crew?????  ::MonkeyConfused::

I say that if Dave and/or Robin believed that was Natalee in the trap, then posting them for the reason you state here would have been a very good one.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 01:15:17 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



I caught that and he does sound like that but I believe he is only saying that to bring the point out that Mos has enough to arrest Joran, Paulus and the Kalpoes. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:18:17 PM

I don't know that Dave has said anything.  Kermit gave the second set of photographs (12/30) to Beth in March (I think) and that would have been when PI learned about them.  According to ldstlou, Hotshot, and others, Jug is saying that nothing was in the cage.  Dave and Robin obviously received the 12/29 photographs from the FBI, because Robin posted them at BFN.  I wonder if it's too big of a stretch to wonder if the reason why the photographs were posted at BFN was to expose a cover up and put pressure on ALE and the Persistence crew?????  ::MonkeyConfused::

Robin posted those images that Dave received from the FBI on a private site ... not BFN.  I believe that somebody emailed them to Klaas and ... Klaas posted them on SM.  IIRC ... Kyle and his BFN friends were furious.

Klaas???

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 01:18:28 PM
Robin posted the 12/29 pictures at BNH.  She later said that
they (I assume that means Robin & Dave) were told that
it was not Natalee in the cage.  They accepted that.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:18:51 PM

If the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti had convinced Tim Miller that the contents of the trap were not related to the Natalee Holloway case ... I believe that Tim and Dave could easily have been duped into following another lead.

Think about it.  Dave Holloway called those involved in the search efforts "heroes".  This convinces me that he trusted the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti.

Janet

++++





With all of the posts here saying "Tim KNEW that the trap contained human remains", I had to ask that question.  Did he know or not?  Seems some believe he did.  99.9% sure.  If he was indeed duped by these people I hope they get 'strung up'.  To treat someone like Tim that way pisses me off!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 01:23:52 PM
From Janet:

If the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti had convinced Tim Miller that the contents of the trap were not related to the Natalee Holloway case ... I believe that Tim and Dave could easily have been duped into following another lead.

Think about it.  Dave Holloway called those involved in the search efforts "heroes".  This convinces me that he trusted the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti.

Janet





I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:25:58 PM

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

In the last two minutes of Kelly's last interview with Greta does it sound as though Kelly may be thinking that Natalee is still alive?

http://tinyurl.com/5lsnfr



I caught that and he does sound like that but I believe he is only saying that to bring the point out that Mos has enough to arrest Joran, Paulus and the Kalpoes. 

Could be.  The problem we all face when making up our minds about what is said by anyone in this case is trying to figure out which statements are bluffs (or outright lies) versus confident bets.

When Joran speaks we often take some of what he is saying as truth and some we discard as lies.  While he may be mixing lies with thruths, how are we to ultimately determine which is which?

In the undercover sting with Patrick Joran leaves off with Natalee in a boat with some other guy. In his recent interview with Greta Joran leaves off with Natalee in a boat with some other guy.  Both true..or both false?  Is one true to the extent of why Natalee was on a boat with another guy?  Or are both stories completely false and should be completely discounted?  I don't know.

I ain't letting anything go yet.  All possiblities are still an option to me.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:26:20 PM

I don't know that Dave has said anything.  Kermit gave the second set of photographs (12/30) to Beth in March (I think) and that would have been when PI learned about them.  According to ldstlou, Hotshot, and others, Jug is saying that nothing was in the cage.  Dave and Robin obviously received the 12/29 photographs from the FBI, because Robin posted them at BFN.  I wonder if it's too big of a stretch to wonder if the reason why the photographs were posted at BFN was to expose a cover up and put pressure on ALE and the Persistence crew?????  ::MonkeyConfused::

Robin posted those images that Dave received from the FBI on a private site ... not BFN.  I believe that somebody emailed them to Klaas and ... Klaas posted them on SM.  IIRC ... Kyle and his BFN friends were furious.

Klaas???

Janet



oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »


I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?   

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.   

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net.  I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »


There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.  Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap.  (very small clip of this video on Dateline).  Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor.  The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

What you all really didn't know (nor Tim Miller when he said his statements to the press, neither Dateline NBC when they broadcasted their lovely special):

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap.  The trap was not recovered.  Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis.  Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

The trap in Video 1-3 was found from the first conducted ROV dive.  I found the target at 1:46 am on Christmas morning.  It was my #1 ranked priority target and therefore the first of the ROV dive series. 

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets.  None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047;topicseen#msg360047



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:28:56 PM
From Janet:

If the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti had convinced Tim Miller that the contents of the trap were not related to the Natalee Holloway case ... I believe that Tim and Dave could easily have been duped into following another lead.

Think about it.  Dave Holloway called those involved in the search efforts "heroes".  This convinces me that he trusted the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti.

Janet



I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics.


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »


Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 01:29:54 PM
Robin posted the 12/29 pictures at BNH.  She later said that
they (I assume that means Robin & Dave) were told that
it was not Natalee in the cage.  They accepted that.




I remember that also, Mags.  It looks like they probably convinced Dave, Beth, and Tim that it wasn't Natalee.  That makes it all even more cruel, after Kyle's mathematical conclusions seem to confirm that it was Natalee.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 01:30:44 PM
From Janet:

If the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti had convinced Tim Miller that the contents of the trap were not related to the Natalee Holloway case ... I believe that Tim and Dave could easily have been duped into following another lead.

Think about it.  Dave Holloway called those involved in the search efforts "heroes".  This convinces me that he trusted the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti.

Janet





I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics.

If ALE set up the Marcos diversion it would have had to be at the
suggestion of someone on the Persistence.  IMO


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 01:37:29 PM
I find it difficult to read Kyle's statement, knowing what I now know.  He does implicate himself, though, because he very clearly states that they supervised the sampling of the trap.  He certainly didn't keep Beth informed, either, because it was Kermit who finally gave Beth the 12/30 photographs.

***********************

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »

I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?   

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.   

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net.  I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:40:00 PM

If the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti had convinced Tim Miller that the contents of the trap were not related to the Natalee Holloway case ... I believe that Tim and Dave could easily have been duped into following another lead.

Think about it.  Dave Holloway called those involved in the search efforts "heroes".  This convinces me that he trusted the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti.

Janet

++++


With all of the posts here saying "Tim KNEW that the trap contained human remains", I had to ask that question.  Did he know or not?  Seems some believe he did.  99.9% sure.  If he was indeed duped by these people I hope they get 'strung up'.  To treat someone like Tim that way pisses me off!


The "powers that be" in Aruba have been attempting to "dupe" those who knew the truth since May 30, 2005 in an effort to protect Joran and Paulus van der Sloot from implication in the happenings encompassing the disappearance of Natalee Holloway and ... those being "duped" where powerless to do anything about it.

Tim Miller is only one of many victims of Aruban "duping".

Janet

______

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for Dec. 5th
updated 6:18 a.m. PT, Tues., Dec. 6, 2005


TWITTY: ... Remember, within the first 24 hours, we knew who the suspects were. We knew the persons that Natalee were taken from Carlos and Charlie‘s. We knew the license plate of the gray Honda they placed her in. We knew the condition that Natalee was in. We knew the behavior or the conduct in which they engaged in with Natalee.

And then not only that, Jane, within 72 hours, we knew that their first story was totally fabricated, that within the first 72 hours, I faced a room of 12 -- at least 12 detectives, Aruban and Dutch detectives, and a lead detective, Dennis Jacobs (ph), and they knew after we reviewed video footage from the Holiday Inn casino lobby that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. They knew that those suspects were fabricating a story from day one.

<snipped>

TWITTY: Well, Jane, something that the family knew—and we have to keep reminding everyone—after 72 hours -- 72 hours—we knew definitively that these suspects were not telling the truth. We knew that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. Of course we were becoming frustrated. Who wouldn‘t, at this point? You know, we—and what was so unbelievable about this, is they knew this information and still chose to pursue the two security guards on June the 5th.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348437/


Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008


And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 01:41:00 PM
From Janet:

If the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti had convinced Tim Miller that the contents of the trap were not related to the Natalee Holloway case ... I believe that Tim and Dave could easily have been duped into following another lead.

Think about it.  Dave Holloway called those involved in the search efforts "heroes".  This convinces me that he trusted the Arubans, Louis Shaeffer and John Silvetti.

Janet





I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics.

If ALE set up the Marcos diversion it would have had to be at the
suggestion of someone on the Persistence.  IMO




I wonder if that is why Kermit asked us....Who took Tim off the ship?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:42:12 PM
I find it difficult to read Kyle's statement, knowing what I now know.  He does implicate himself, though, because he very clearly states that they supervised the sampling of the trap.  He certainly didn't keep Beth informed, either, because it was Kermit who finally gave Beth the 12/30 photographs.

***********************

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »

I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?   

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.   

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net.  I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200

GREAT CATCH SS!!!

 ::cartwheel::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 01:45:36 PM
(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




You were correct Tim Miller.  There were human remains in that crab trap and even a bunch of monkeys were able to blow up a few pictures to identify a skull and a pelvic bone.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:49:21 PM
Two little muchkins (5/7)are spending the weekend ... until noon tomorrow ... with Mama and Papa.  Papa just finished a game of monopoly with them ... now its Mama''s turn.  I think I will take them to visit Santa who arrived at the Mall last weekend.  Then maybe a game of bowling is where it is at.  I will wing it.

HAVE A GOOD DAY MONKEYS!!!

Janet
10:50 AM PT 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 01:51:25 PM



oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »


Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from meAfter Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 





From what is posted here (in red and bolded)  Dateline was there when the 15:40 shot was taken.  And Tim.  Did  Tim see that shot?  And, did Kyle send the shot captured at 15:40 to the FBI?  If not, why?  If he did are we to assume that the FBI did not agree that this shot is of human remains?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 01:55:40 PM
The following inconsistency is only one that has bother me about the Persistent endeavor from very early on.  Kyle's story kept changing.

Janet

+++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »


I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?    

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.   

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net. I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200


ocean exploration (Kyle)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »


We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 02:09:58 PM
(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




You were correct Tim Miller.  There were human remains in that crab trap and even a bunch of monkeys were able to blow up a few pictures to identify a skull and a pelvic bone.

When Tim Miller talked about the day they found the cage,
with the double rainbows and the dolphins leading the ship
out to sea, it was very touching to me.  There is no way
that man did not believe in what he was doing.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 02:10:29 PM
We've already noted that there was no entry for 1/7/08, per Kyle, due to internet problems.  I just noticed, however, that none of the entries really have any inkling of the cage in particular, or any findings, in particular, those from 12/29/07 - 12/31/07....also notice nothing posted on 12/30/07 but combined in the brief 12/31/07 post.  It seems that they were on the boat for long periods each day, but it's hard to tell if they docked every night.  If the ROV is deployed, then they may have had to stay out in the sea.  What if there was more than one trap?  How would Tim know the boat was over the same target on the 30th as they were on the 29th? 

Mon 31-Dec - 1022hrs
The Persistence spent yesterday performing multiple dives with the ROV. The purpose of the dives is for collecting video of each sonar target. Typically, the sonar target is quickly identified and ruled out from the ROV video. The ROV operations lasted until dusk, where we resumed sonar survey operations through the night. Today, we are performing more ROV dives on targets of potential interest.

Sun 29-Dec- 2335 hrs

Dockside, the ROV team went into action this morning on board the Persistence. Before a test dive could be performed, all systems were checked and rechecked. Once the diagnostics were complete, the Persistence and crew went out to a test dive site known to be free of obstructions and major hazards to the ROV. The purpose of testing the ROV was two fold: 1) ensure all systems function perfectly underwater in full operation mode, and 2) prove the Persistence could hold location over the ROV, track the vehicle, and maneuver itself to keep the ROV umbilical cable out of the ship's screws.
During the first test dive, the deployment went smoothly. The ROV motored to the bow of the boat, while the captain kept the stern of the Persistence into the seas. The purpose of this maneuver was to keep the ROV umbilical out of the ship's screws. During this maneuver, the umbilical got temporarily hung up on the ship's hull, but freed itself. The visibility through the water column with the ROV cameras was excellent. When the ROV reached the seafloor we noticed it could not maintain control over it's attitude because of the very strong currents. On the second and third test dive more weight was added to better control the umbilical and ROV. At dusk, the final test was successful and proved we could maintain safe control over both the Persistence and ROV. With a sigh of relief from all, the Persistence and crew resumed survey mode. We will run additional sonar lines into the early morning.

Sat. 29-Dec-1100 hrs
From Tim Miller:

Please allow me to give my sincere appreciation for all the comments supporting our efforts in our search for Natalee. Today is an exciting day as we will now begin working the ROV in hopes of finding a special treasure at the bottom of the sea named Natalee.

Let us keep Natalee, Dave, and Beth in our hearts and prayers. Also, let's not forget all the other families of missing loved ones.

Texas Equusearch has been so very blessed with the support of Underwater Expeditions, the R/V Persistence (Silvetti Group), and their crew - which I think is the best in the world- for all their heartfelt efforts.

May it be His will to bring Natalee home.
-Tim Miller
Texas Equusearch


http://nholloway.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-01-17T21%3A29%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=7


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 02:16:49 PM



oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »


Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from meAfter Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 





From what is posted here (in red and bolded)  Dateline was there when the 15:40 shot was taken.  And Tim.  Did  Tim see that shot?  And, did Kyle send the shot captured at 15:40 to the FBI?  If not, why?  If he did are we to assume that the FBI did not agree that this shot is of human remains?




Kyle's statement is wrong.  He sent the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/29.  Kermit gave the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/30.  The images that Dave/Robin received and posted were like the ones below.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 02:18:09 PM
 Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 02:19:13 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?
I had given up on any "justice" in the courts for Natalee BEFORE the Persistence search even started. All I ever wanted was to bring her home. To hell with Aruban justice.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kat_Gram on December 06, 2008, 02:22:43 PM
Oh how convenient this all is. Tim Miller who has invested so much time etc before the search by the Persistence is not there when the samples come up and are whisked away by the Arubans. Some person named Marcos just has to come up with a she's alive story right at the same time.
As far as I am concerend, the recovery of the items in the cage was not done in a professional manner, else we would not be having this discussion. Pictures can look like other things. But everything that came out of that cage should not have been handed over to the Arubans. Doesn't matter to me what waters they were in, this should have been worked out before anyone got on the boat.
And furthermore I never ever believed that the search was for Natalee's remains. The mapping of the ocean floor, that information must have been worth alot of money to an oil exploration company. When Silvetti was asking for funds, I do believe I went to OE's blog and told him to get the money from the sale of the GIS mappings.  Now that I hear all of this, I think I was right and I stand with the Frog. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:26:18 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?
I had given up on any "justice" in the courts for Natalee BEFORE the Persistence search even started. All I ever wanted was to bring her home. To hell with Aruban justice.

My sentiments exactly, Wreck.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 02:26:48 PM
Here is a post I made concerning Paulus and Anita watching the boat from shore.  Notice the date I made this post:

725       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #710 1/03       on: January 06, 2008, 09:55:35 PM
Quote from: robots on January 06, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
i hope joran keeps drinking YARD after YARD

loose ugly lips sink Anita  Razz Cool


Have we had any news lately if this "sporter" is back at school or if he moved somewhere else is Holland?  Did you see today it was reported Anita and Paulus were observed on the beach watching the ship?  How could they just stand there and not tell where Natalee is?  Disgusting pigs (MO).


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kat_Gram on December 06, 2008, 02:27:28 PM
"Aruban Justice " is an oxymoron.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 02:28:09 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?




Blue Moon - let's hypothetically assume that they found a cage and there were no human remains in it, but there was a sneaker.  Or, maybe closer investigation of the cage showed just a denim skirt and a sneaker.  A missing sneaker has been a key piece of the Natatlee case since the very beginning.  Natalee was wearing a denim skirt when she disappeared.  Those two items by themselves should have indicated to the Persistence crew that they had found a possible crime scene.



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 02:28:28 PM



oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »


Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from meAfter Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 





From what is posted here (in red and bolded)  Dateline was there when the 15:40 shot was taken.  And Tim.  Did  Tim see that shot?  And, did Kyle send the shot captured at 15:40 to the FBI?  If not, why?  If he did are we to assume that the FBI did not agree that this shot is of human remains?




Kyle's statement is wrong.  He sent the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/29.  Kermit gave the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/30.  The images that Dave/Robin received and posted were like the ones below.



In light of some of the discussions last night I find this pic a bit interesting.

The discussion that comes to mind was related to were the thumbs down signal was given from.  Some surmised that the ROV did not swing around towards the left, which is where they believed the human remains to be.  If you look at the pic you have posted here doesn't it look as though the opening is on the side of the trap at the far end? Not on the end, the short end of the trap?  And the shot itself is a 'straight on' shot of what may or may not be human remains as though the opening is on the end of the trap...not on the side of it.  So if I am seeing this correctly, the divers were in the right position to see what could be human remains, yet gave a thumbs down signal.

Do you see what I mean?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 02:32:36 PM
"Aruban Justice " is an oxymoron.


LOL. True.  And those in charge of justice in Aruba are just simply morons!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kat_Gram on December 06, 2008, 02:33:31 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 02:39:51 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   
Aruba is not on the "up and up" like Canada. Kermit hints at a business relationship with Silvetti and Jossy, though. (sorry to ruffle feathers)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 02:40:47 PM
Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?




We don't have that image and I don't know if one exists unless it's on the ROV footage.  Kyle discovered the cage very early on Christmas morning.  According to Kye, they did some claculations, etc.  Tim then contacted Dave.  Somewhere, in this thread or the last thread Kyle explains what he and Tim did.  I have never seen a photograph, though.  The photographs that were taken on 12/29 were four days after the cage was found.  I don't know how long it took them to send the ROV down for closeups or if the ROV had already been launched.  I don't know if once they launched the ROV it stayed in the water or if they had to relaunch it every day.  It could be possible that the ROV was in the water on 12/25 or maybe Kyle was just reviewing some ROV footage on 12/25.  It could very well be that the photographs on 12/29 were the first ones.


Does anyone have Kyle's description of Tim and him examining the cage for the first time?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: snoopy on December 06, 2008, 02:41:33 PM
I find it difficult to read Kyle's statement, knowing what I now know.  He does implicate himself, though, because he very clearly states that they supervised the sampling of the trap.  He certainly didn't keep Beth informed, either, because it was Kermit who finally gave Beth the 12/30 photographs.

***********************

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »

I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?  

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.  

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net.  I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200

So they supervised the collection, but never had possession of evidence ?  Have I got that right?  WTH

Did anyone from the Persistence actually physically see/touch the evidence or was it all from viewing the monitor as the Aruban divers collected it?  This is not clear to me.

For crying out loud!!  Why in the world was the Aruban authorities completely trusted with this?  WTH 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:43:04 PM
(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




You were correct Tim Miller.  There were human remains in that crab trap and even a bunch of monkeys were able to blow up a few pictures to identify a skull and a pelvic bone.

When Tim Miller talked about the day they found the cage,
with the double rainbows and the dolphins leading the ship
out to sea, it was very touching to me.  There is no way
that man did not believe in what he was doing.

I agree with you Magnolia.  I've thought about that double rainbow, and those dolphins so many times.  Maybe it was all just for show, and never happened at all.  But if it wasn't, and it did; I can't help but think that Natalee had something to do with it.  I believe that Tim Miller's heart is as big as Texas, and he's walked in the shoes that Natalee's parents have; he has known that pain himself.  I think quite possibly those things, and how they help form his opinion on matters could very well be why he was considered a liability on that boat.  JMO  


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 02:44:23 PM
Here is a post I made concerning Paulus and Anita watching the boat from shore.  Notice the date I made this post:

725       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #710 1/03       on: January 06, 2008, 09:55:35 PM
Quote from: robots on January 06, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
i hope joran keeps drinking YARD after YARD

loose ugly lips sink Anita  Razz Cool


Have we had any news lately if this "sporter" is back at school or if he moved somewhere else is Holland?  Did you see today it was reported Anita and Paulus were observed on the beach watching the ship?  How could they just stand there and not tell where Natalee is?  Disgusting pigs (MO).




Blue Moon - didn't we have a photograph of the two of them standing on the beach watching Perisitence?  I would love to see that picture again.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: snoopy on December 06, 2008, 02:47:03 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?

I remember that.  We told him to get her and get the heck outta there.  Raise that flag and bring her home.  Damn it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:47:43 PM
Here is a post I made concerning Paulus and Anita watching the boat from shore.  Notice the date I made this post:

725       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #710 1/03       on: January 06, 2008, 09:55:35 PM
Quote from: robots on January 06, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
i hope joran keeps drinking YARD after YARD

loose ugly lips sink Anita  Razz Cool


Have we had any news lately if this "sporter" is back at school or if he moved somewhere else is Holland?  Did you see today it was reported Anita and Paulus were observed on the beach watching the ship?  How could they just stand there and not tell where Natalee is?  Disgusting pigs (MO).

Thanks BlueMoon..I read that post and made a post on Kyle's site regarding it later that night or early morning of the 7th.  I remembered I read it somewhere but couldn't remember who or where; I bet it was your post I read.  Paulus and Anita were probably well aware of what would be happening the next day.  IMO

 ::MonkeyNoNo::  


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 02:48:26 PM
Truthseeker

In light of some of the discussions last night I find this pic a bit interesting.

The discussion that comes to mind was related to were the thumbs down signal was given from.  Some surmised that the ROV did not swing around towards the left, which is where they believed the human remains to be.  If you look at the pic you have posted here doesn't it look as though the opening is on the side of the trap at the far end? Not on the end, the short end of the trap?  And the shot itself is a 'straight on' shot of what may or may not be human remains as though the opening is on the end of the trap...not on the side of it.  So if I am seeing this correctly, the divers were in the right position to see what could be human remains, yet gave a thumbs down signal.

Do you see what I mean?




Truthseeker - I think the divers knew exactly what they were doing, as did the person operating the ROV from onboard the ship.  C-O-V-E-R-U-P


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 02:51:34 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   
Aruba is not on the "up and up" like Canada. Kermit hints at a business relationship with Silvetti and Jossy, though. (sorry to ruffle feathers)

Not ruffling my feathers Wreck, I think that business relationship is a very good possibility; and I'd love to know more about that.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Lifesong on December 06, 2008, 02:51:53 PM
I find it difficult to read Kyle's statement, knowing what I now know.  He does implicate himself, though, because he very clearly states that they supervised the sampling of the trap.  He certainly didn't keep Beth informed, either, because it was Kermit who finally gave Beth the 12/30 photographs.

***********************

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »

I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?  

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.  

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net.  I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200

So they supervised the collection, but never had possession of evidence ?  Have I got that right?  WTH

Did anyone from the Persistence actually physically see/touch the evidence or was it all from viewing the monitor as the Aruban divers collected it?  This is not clear to me.

For crying out loud!!  Why in the world was the Aruban authorities completely trusted with this?  WTH 

I agree!

Is our FBI so apathetic or incompetent that there was actually NO undercover agent on that boat (Persistence)?  Why/how else go to the trouble to search?



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 02:52:22 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   




I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 02:56:42 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   
Aruba is not on the "up and up" like Canada. Kermit hints at a business relationship with Silvetti and Jossy, though. (sorry to ruffle feathers)

Not ruffling my feathers Wreck, I think that business relationship is a very good possibility; and I'd love to know more about that.
Quite frankly, I don't think we have ANYONE on Aruba that we can trust 100% -- Not a one.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 02:57:11 PM
Truthseeker

In light of some of the discussions last night I find this pic a bit interesting.

The discussion that comes to mind was related to were the thumbs down signal was given from.  Some surmised that the ROV did not swing around towards the left, which is where they believed the human remains to be.  If you look at the pic you have posted here doesn't it look as though the opening is on the side of the trap at the far end? Not on the end, the short end of the trap?  And the shot itself is a 'straight on' shot of what may or may not be human remains as though the opening is on the end of the trap...not on the side of it.  So if I am seeing this correctly, the divers were in the right position to see what could be human remains, yet gave a thumbs down signal.

Do you see what I mean?




Truthseeker - I think the divers knew exactly what they were doing, as did the person operating the ROV from onboard the ship.  C-O-V-E-R-U-P

SS

Sorry.  Just making an observation.  Please, carry on.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 02:58:26 PM
I find it difficult to read Kyle's statement, knowing what I now know.  He does implicate himself, though, because he very clearly states that they supervised the sampling of the trap.  He certainly didn't keep Beth informed, either, because it was Kermit who finally gave Beth the 12/30 photographs.

***********************

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »

I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?  

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.  

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net.  I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200

So they supervised the collection, but never had possession of evidence ?  Have I got that right?  WTH

Did anyone from the Persistence actually physically see/touch the evidence or was it all from viewing the monitor as the Aruban divers collected it?  This is not clear to me.

For crying out loud!!  Why in the world was the Aruban authorities completely trusted with this?  WTH 

I agree!

Is our FBI so apathetic or incompetent that there was actually NO undercover agent on that boat (Persistence)?  Why/how else go to the trouble to search?





That would have been so great to have an undercover agent onboard.  That would have been the last thing that they would have wanted.    ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 03:00:24 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   




I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.

I do not think they let Jossy in on the fact of finding the remains.
But then again....his son was one of the divers.  However,
he was not suited up on the Dateline photos when they  show
Tim Traham all suited up to dive.  I am disagreeing with myself. ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:01:12 PM
Truthseeker

In light of some of the discussions last night I find this pic a bit interesting.

The discussion that comes to mind was related to were the thumbs down signal was given from.  Some surmised that the ROV did not swing around towards the left, which is where they believed the human remains to be.  If you look at the pic you have posted here doesn't it look as though the opening is on the side of the trap at the far end? Not on the end, the short end of the trap?  And the shot itself is a 'straight on' shot of what may or may not be human remains as though the opening is on the end of the trap...not on the side of it.  So if I am seeing this correctly, the divers were in the right position to see what could be human remains, yet gave a thumbs down signal.

Do you see what I mean?




Truthseeker - I think the divers knew exactly what they were doing, as did the person operating the ROV from onboard the ship.  C-O-V-E-R-U-P

SS

Sorry.  Just making an observation.  Please, carry on.



Didn't bother me at all.  Hope I didn't sound like a smart a$$.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 03:04:17 PM
SS,

I didn't think you were a smart a$$.  I just wanted to know what you thought about the observation I made of the pic you posted.  No big deal.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 06, 2008, 03:05:34 PM
Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #524 on: December 05, 2008, 11:59:23 PM

kyle stated: "Richardson was onboard the Persistence several times and attended the meetings on the boat. You may see a glimpse of him on the Dateline video in the survey room along with Mos standing over my shoulder.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568677;topicseen#msg568677

"The effort was superb,but the game was fixed"

After all this time.Why the F@#K would you allow these SINISTER people in on your meetings?????????????

Unbelievable.Why not just have Paulus in your meetings for that fact????Sorry.This just makes me sick..Now i have to watch my Washington Huskies get smashed by The Cal bears....... ::MonkeyEek::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:08:45 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   




I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.

I do not think they let Jossy in on the fact of finding the remains.
But then again....his son was one of the divers.  However,
he was not suited up on the Dateline photos when they  show
Tim Traham all suited up to dive.  I am disagreeing with myself. ::MonkeyHaHa::




I think he knows everything, Mags.  Eduardo is the founder of Aruba Search and Rescue.  Even if he wasn't suited up in those pictures, Kermit says he was one of the divers.  Jossy is also good buds with Silvetti.  They are doing all of those witness polygraphs and stuff together.  My question is why is Silvetti so invested in the current witnesses after he handed the cage contents off to ALE?  Silvetti was even part of that meeting in September with Caps, Jossy, the witness, and as one monkey seems to have learned - de Vries.  Unfortunately, Mos wouldn't meet with them, they all went home, and Jossy published his first two Diario articles.  Jossy and Silvetti know each other very well.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Rob on December 06, 2008, 03:08:59 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?
I had given up on any "justice" in the courts for Natalee BEFORE the Persistence search even started. All I ever wanted was to bring her home. To hell with Aruban justice.

heard that wreck... lets keep focused. Natalee first.. and whatever else happens is icing. I don't see any of these dirtbags going to jail. So lets keep our eye on Natalee and trying to get her home.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 03:10:47 PM
Has Kermit given us the new information that was mentioned
yesterday, when it was said: "I am about to tell more."?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:13:32 PM
Truthseeker

In light of some of the discussions last night I find this pic a bit interesting.

The discussion that comes to mind was related to were the thumbs down signal was given from.  Some surmised that the ROV did not swing around towards the left, which is where they believed the human remains to be.  If you look at the pic you have posted here doesn't it look as though the opening is on the side of the trap at the far end? Not on the end, the short end of the trap?  And the shot itself is a 'straight on' shot of what may or may not be human remains as though the opening is on the end of the trap...not on the side of it.  So if I am seeing this correctly, the divers were in the right position to see what could be human remains, yet gave a thumbs down signal.

Do you see what I mean?




Truthseeker - I think the divers knew exactly what they were doing, as did the person operating the ROV from onboard the ship.  C-O-V-E-R-U-P

SS

Sorry.  Just making an observation.  Please, carry on.



Didn't bother me at all.  Hope I didn't sound like a smart a$$.




I don't know.  Does these photographs help?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:17:12 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?
I had given up on any "justice" in the courts for Natalee BEFORE the Persistence search even started. All I ever wanted was to bring her home. To hell with Aruban justice.

heard that wreck... lets keep focused. Natalee first.. and whatever else happens is icing. I don't see any of these dirtbags going to jail. So lets keep our eye on Natalee and trying to get her home.





Rob - I'll meet you at Phila. International.  We can fly down, storm the ALE offices, and steal her back.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Rob on December 06, 2008, 03:17:28 PM
I was watchin' modern marvels on the history channel the other night.. and they had a segment about cremation. I turned it on after the beginning and missed the company they were talking about, but let's face - there are only so many of these companies. Could have been Mathews International for all I know.

Anyway, they have a cremation blast furnace that completely vaporizes a body in only 60 minutes.  ::MonkeyEek:: That was totally new to me and I thought that the time needed was 3 hours. Not so according to modern marvels.

On another note, who likes to see Paulus' tit in a ringer? Don't all jump at once.  ::MonkeyWink:: His ass is about to go from the frying pan to the fire. TJ has some info that will be on Girdle's show possible as early as next week. She has the info and is reviewing it. I have not seen it, just know about it and it should be good. TJ and Harold Copus should be on next week sometime. As soon as I find out when and if it's a definite, I'll let everyone know.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Rob on December 06, 2008, 03:18:50 PM
I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?
I had given up on any "justice" in the courts for Natalee BEFORE the Persistence search even started. All I ever wanted was to bring her home. To hell with Aruban justice.

heard that wreck... lets keep focused. Natalee first.. and whatever else happens is icing. I don't see any of these dirtbags going to jail. So lets keep our eye on Natalee and trying to get her home.





Rob - I'll meet you at Phila. International.  We can fly down, storm the ALE offices, and steal her back.

SS, they'd have a frickin heart attack if we stole Natalee back. A major frickin heart attack.  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:19:03 PM
Has Kermit given us the new information that was mentioned
yesterday, when it was said: "I am about to tell more."?




Not yet.  I can't wait to get the next installment.   ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 06, 2008, 03:19:57 PM
I was watchin' modern marvels on the history channel the other night.. and they had a segment about cremation. I turned it on after the beginning and missed the company they were talking about, but let's face - there are only so many of these companies. Could have been Mathews International for all I know.

Anyway, they have a cremation blast furnace that completely vaporizes a body in only 60 minutes.  ::MonkeyEek:: That was totally new to me and I thought that the time needed was 3 hours. Not so according to modern marvels.

On another note, who likes to see Paulus' tit in a ringer? Don't all jump at once.  ::MonkeyWink:: His ass is about to go from the frying pan to the fire. TJ has some info that will be on Girdle's show possible as early as next week. She has the info and is reviewing it. I have not seen it, just know about it and it should be good. TJ and Harold Copus should be on next week sometime. As soon as I find out when and if it's a definite, I'll let everyone know.

Thanx for the posts,as well as your selflessness!We Monkey's do appreciate it..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 03:20:31 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   




I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.

I do not think they let Jossy in on the fact of finding the remains.
But then again....his son was one of the divers.  However,
he was not suited up on the Dateline photos when they  show
Tim Traham all suited up to dive.  I am disagreeing with myself. ::MonkeyHaHa::




I think he knows everything, Mags.  Eduardo is the founder of Aruba Search and Rescue.  Even if he wasn't suited up in those pictures, Kermit says he was one of the divers.  Jossy is also good buds with Silvetti.  They are doing all of those witness polygraphs and stuff together.  My question is why is Silvetti so invested in the current witnesses after he handed the cage contents off to ALE?  Silvetti was even part of that meeting in September with Caps, Jossy, the witness, and as one monkey seems to have learned - de Vries.  Unfortunately, Mos wouldn't meet with them, they all went home, and Jossy published his first two Diario articles.  Jossy and Silvetti know each other very well.

I think if we knew the answer to your question, we might have the answer to
a lot of other questions.  I just hate to think that Jossy is involved in deceiving
Natalee's family.  I hate to think it of CAPS too.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 03:22:51 PM
Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:33:52 PM
Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.
I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.




Blue Moon - I'm so glad that you posted this.  Knowing what we know now, this is such a crock.  How can he be posting this nonsense when he knows exactly what happened with the trap.  He gave the contents to ALE after "supervising the sampling from the trap".  According to Caps, the trap itself is still there eleven months later.  Why pull it up now - it's empty.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 03:37:28 PM
Where did Kermit say that Eduardo Mansur was one of the divers?  I would like to read that again if anyone has a link.  TIA


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 03:41:48 PM
Thoughts please
Student News
Congratulations to Weihan Chan, a graduate work-study student in Sybil Seitzinger's lab, for being awarded a Phillip Alampi Scholarship.
Grant Law presented his paper, "Introducing a new spatially discrete resource limited individual-based model," at the inaugural meeting of the Northeast Evolution & Ecology Conference (NEEC) on April 12 - 13, 2003.
Undergraduate Research Fellow Kyle Kingman working with faculty advisor Peter Rona presented a poster on his senior honors thesis, "Cenozoic rates and patterns of deposition on the U.S. Atlantic continental margin in the Hudson Canyon region," at a dinner convened by Vice President for Undergraduate Education Susan Forman on April 23rd.

Congratulations
Thomas "Motz" Grothues and his wife Gabrielle had their second child, a baby girl, born Monday April 7. Nathalie Michelle was 20" and weighed 7 lb. 1 oz. Everyone is well. Older brother Christopher not too sure.



http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:e-oTrUmwP7oJ:marine.rutgers.edu/news/04-30-2003.html+Kyle+Kingman+has+a+new+baby+girl&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

This article you found is from 2003...how about this one, which was prior to Kyle annoucing the birth of his daughter:

http://liquidchurch.typepad.com/big_hair_preacher/2008/01/baby-boom-at-li.html
(snipped)
Here are some expecting couples I'm praying for:

- Tim & Alex Purnell (Tim's one of the drummers in our Worship Band)
- Gerry & Sandi Piazza (Gerry runs Security & Sandi is part of our staff)
- Steve & Susan Yarad (Our Aussie friends... www.steveandsusan.blogspot.com)
- Jake & Emily Schlenker (fellow Devils fans!)
- John & Jess Maravich (Life Group leaders)
- Kyle & Gail Kingman (Kyle's an oceanographer and this is baby #2 for them)
- Pete & Rebekah Goode (NC Liquidites)
- Elise & Peter Klimchuk  (prayers for Elise on bed rest)
- Brian & Karin Capra (in the Gregory's Life Group)

Brace yourselves, Lil' Liquid nursery workers!  I'm sure there are more (these are literally just the few that came to mind as a I write).  Please join me in praying for each family-- for health, safety, & peace of mind as they prepare to have their worlds rocked.

What I was looking for, is to see if he really named his new little girl Natalee or was that a lie too.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 03:41:53 PM
Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.
I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.




Blue Moon - I'm so glad that you posted this.  Knowing what we know now, this is such a crock.  How can he be posting this nonsense when he knows exactly what happened with the trap.  He gave the contents to ALE after "supervising the sampling from the trap".  According to Caps, the trap itself is still there eleven months later.  Why pull it up now - it's empty.

So samples only were collected on the 7th of Jan., the Dutch ship retrieved the contents of the cage on the 11th and 12th (spending 42 minutes each day).  Was the 11th and 12th retrieval filmed by anyone on the Persistence?  Just the collection of samples were filmed on the 7th?  This sucks.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:43:27 PM
Where did Kermit say that Eduardo Mansur was one of the divers?  I would like to read that again if anyone has a link.  TIA




TM - if I recall it went like this.....
Kyle wouldn't identify the diver as Eduardo
We compared pictures of Eduardo onboard with the life vest and from the family wedding
I finally asked Kermit if it was Eduardo
I can't remember where it is right now
The same thing happened with identifying John Silvetti
Kyle said he came onboard with the Arubans
We continued to compared photographs
I asked Kermit and Kermit said Yes


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:46:14 PM
Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.
I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.




Blue Moon - I'm so glad that you posted this.  Knowing what we know now, this is such a crock.  How can he be posting this nonsense when he knows exactly what happened with the trap.  He gave the contents to ALE after "supervising the sampling from the trap".  According to Caps, the trap itself is still there eleven months later.  Why pull it up now - it's empty.

So samples only were collected on the 7th of Jan., the Dutch ship retrieved the contents of the cage on the 11th and 12th (spending 42 minutes each day).  Was the 11th and 12th retrieval filmed by anyone on the Persistence?  Just the collection of samples were filmed on the 7th?  This sucks.




The Dutch didn't retrieve anything on the 11th and 12th.  We don't know why they were there.  The cage was cleaned on January 7th.  Everything was put in those bags.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 03:46:54 PM
I've been questioning to myself why the same Dutch team that searched the Vandersloot property in 2007 wouldn't have been involved in the collection of evidence from Persistence?  Why ALE at that time, when from my understanding Aruba had requested the assistance from the Dutch in September 2006?  Maybe the ship on the 11th & 12th was part of the Dutch team, but why weren't they involved on the 7th?  I think I may already know the answer to that one? But I don't like that answer.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 03:52:29 PM
I remember equipment that could vacuum the ocean floor around the cage was discussed at one point; I thought that was what the delay was in recovering the evidence in the cage.  Perhaps that is what was going on during the 11th and 12th, maybe the Dutch ship had that equipment? 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 03:58:59 PM
Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 03:59:31 PM
I've been questioning to myself why the same Dutch team that searched the Vandersloot property in 2007 wouldn't have been involved in the collection of evidence from Persistence?  Why ALE at that time, when from my understanding Aruba had requested the assistance from the Dutch in September 2006?  Maybe the ship on the 11th & 12th was part of the Dutch team, but why weren't they involved on the 7th?  I think I may already know the answer to that one? But I don't like that answer.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyConfused::


I think you answered your own question. ::MonkeyHaHa::  We had all thought that the Panter was there on the 11th and 12th to lift the cage with a crane.  Caps told us last week, though, that he and some friends did a dive recently and the cage is still there.  I have no idea now what Panter was doing on the 11th and 12th.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 04:02:39 PM
I remember equipment that could vacuum the ocean floor around the cage was discussed at one point; I thought that was what the delay was in recovering the evidence in the cage.  Perhaps that is what was going on during the 11th and 12th, maybe the Dutch ship had that equipment? 




Kyle told Kermit that the cage was processed on the 7th.  That's when everything was put in the bags.  Kyle also said that the Panter didn't have dive capabilities on the 11th and 12th and they were only there for 42 minutes each day.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: KatzHome on December 06, 2008, 04:02:51 PM
Just popped in to say hi everyone ~ with a special hello and a hug to Mrs Red and the few good friends I had on this board

No, I've never forgotten... only my recent "prayer" has kinda been like, "God, I'm really kinda surprised that you haven't answered my prayer that Natalee be found... it's the only thing you haven't said 'yes' to in over 15 years..." and it always seemed that His answer was something like, "But it isn't over yet... so how can you say I haven't answered your prayer...?" And just by chance I wound up on a Natalee thread over at BFN last night where I read that just the other day Joran did an interview with Greta... though it's been a long time, it ain't over yet...

I'm not able to hang out, research (not that I ever did that well) or try to think through scenarios of what may have happened to Natalee ~ but I'm still supporting you all with my prayers.

Wishing everyone a Happy Hanukkah ~ Merry Christmas ~ and a Happy New Year,

Love,
me

P.S. Funny, I also saw that Strike had the very same thought as me today, popping in to say hello ~ and I missed him... if anyone sees him ~ please tell him that I say hi ~ that my computer crashed and no longer have his or anyone else's email address ~ and that if he wants to ~ to drop me a line sometime.

Thanks ~ take care and God bless.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 04:12:20 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 04:12:25 PM
Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS



OS - I really don't know how to begin to answer your questions except to suggest that you read the past two threads to understand why people are thinking the way that they are thinking.  The cage is different than the one from the huts.  This is a large commercial sized cage and it is questionable whether a fish cage was even stolen from the huts.  The condition of the remains in the cage as described by the experts who found the cage, indicate that the time of water exposure was consistent with the time frame.  There was a cover up and people reportedly have tried to make financial gain from photographs.  The ziplock bags are not ordinary ziplock bages.  They are huge evidence bags.  Three ordinary ziplock bags would not hold clothing, a shoe, various skeletal remains, and a skull.  Natalee's family is not part of any scam.  I don't know how else to help you with your questions.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: KatzHome on December 06, 2008, 04:15:33 PM
P.S. While here I updated my signature block, and so, if anyone still wants one ~ the printable .pdf file for the Natalee bumper stickers is now on my own web site ~ I've updated the link to that file in my signature block. Yeah, even though I haven't posted in a very, very long time ~ I still still stand with the girl!

Love,
me


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 04:17:08 PM
Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS


Thank you!!!!!!!!!   ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 04:19:10 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)




Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 04:21:41 PM
Johan -

a hint =  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 04:22:36 PM
P.S. While here I updated my signature block, and so, if anyone still wants one ~ the printable .pdf file for the Natalee bumper stickers is now on my own web site ~ I've updated the link to that file in my signature block. Yeah, even though I haven't posted in a very, very long time ~ I still still stand with the girl!

Love,
me

Thank you, KatzHome.....nice to see you.  It's been quite a while.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 04:23:25 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)




Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?

it is a leg bone see insert


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: KatzHome on December 06, 2008, 04:26:02 PM
P.S. While here I updated my signature block, and so, if anyone still wants one ~ the printable .pdf file for the Natalee bumper stickers is now on my own web site ~ I've updated the link to that file in my signature block. Yeah, even though I haven't posted in a very, very long time ~ I still still stand with the girl!

Love,
me

Thank you, KatzHome.....nice to see you.  It's been quite a while.

Global Moderator now, wow... congratulations! And it's good to see you too NJ Mom! {{{hugs}}}


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 04:27:36 PM


OS - I really don't know how to begin to answer your questions except to suggest that you read the past two threads to understand why people are thinking the way that they are thinking.  The cage is different than the one from the huts.  This is a large commercial sized cage and it is questionable whether a fish cage was even stolen from the huts.  The condition of the remains in the cage as described by the experts who found the cage, indicate that the time of water exposure was consistent with the time frame.  There was a cover up and people reportedly have tried to make financial gain from photographs.  The ziplock bags are not ordinary ziplock bages.  They are huge evidence bags.  Three ordinary ziplock bags would not hold clothing, a shoe, various skeletal remains, and a skull.  Natalee's family is not part of any scam.  I don't know how else to help you with your questions.

Hi SS,

I have been reading and it just becomes more confusing to me..I have a p size brain lol..

So I will keep reading maybe it will sink in.

Thanks,

OS


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 04:28:37 PM
Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS


Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 04:28:38 PM
Johan - do you think it's a leg bone or the humerus, which is the upper arm?   I didn't see anything for the legs in the photographs and I kind of thought that they had been dragged away by scavengers or something.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 04:29:53 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)




Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?

it is a leg bone see insert

nr : 16   ::MonkeyHaHa::

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Skelet_uitleg.jpg?t=1228598887)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 06, 2008, 04:31:23 PM


OS - I really don't know how to begin to answer your questions except to suggest that you read the past two threads to understand why people are thinking the way that they are thinking.  The cage is different than the one from the huts.  This is a large commercial sized cage and it is questionable whether a fish cage was even stolen from the huts.  The condition of the remains in the cage as described by the experts who found the cage, indicate that the time of water exposure was consistent with the time frame.  There was a cover up and people reportedly have tried to make financial gain from photographs.  The ziplock bags are not ordinary ziplock bages.  They are huge evidence bags.  Three ordinary ziplock bags would not hold clothing, a shoe, various skeletal remains, and a skull.  Natalee's family is not part of any scam.  I don't know how else to help you with your questions.

Hi SS,

I have been reading and it just becomes more confusing to me..I have a p size brain lol..

So I will keep reading maybe it will sink in.

Thanks,

OS

Go to Kermit's profile.Very informative to say the least..You'll form your own opinion..


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 04:31:36 PM
Johan - do you think it's a leg bone or the humerus, which is the upper arm?   I didn't see anything for the legs in the photographs and I kind of thought that they had been dragged away by scavengers or something.

i have a special programm for underwater pics and i think it is a leg bone yes
and i think this is not the F-mans hut cage


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 04:32:09 PM
Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS


Thank you!!!!!!!!!   ::MonkeyCool::

Your welcome

OS


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 04:34:55 PM
caps tols last week that this cage is still there ,maybe they use it for drugs smuggling  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 04:35:20 PM
Johan - do you think it's a leg bone or the humerus, which is the upper arm?   I didn't see anything for the legs in the photographs and I kind of thought that they had been dragged away by scavengers or something.

i have a special programm for underwater pics and i think it is a leg bone yes
and i think this is not the F-mans hut cage



Wow, Johan you are good.  I knew there was a reason why I didn't boycott you along with the tulips!   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Keepthefaith on December 06, 2008, 04:35:59 PM
Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS


Thank you!!!!!!!!!   ::MonkeyCool::

Your welcome

OS

So you believe they put what appear to be human remains in a cage to make money from TV people??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Kat_Gram on December 06, 2008, 04:38:41 PM
Does anyone know of a forensic anthpologist who could / would look at the pictures ?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 04:39:23 PM
Johan - do you think it's a leg bone or the humerus, which is the upper arm?   I didn't see anything for the legs in the photographs and I kind of thought that they had been dragged away by scavengers or something.

i have a special programm for underwater pics and i think it is a leg bone yes
and i think this is not the F-mans hut cage



Wow, Johan you are good.  I knew there was a reason why I didn't boycott you along with the tulips!   ::MonkeyHaHa::

i send you wooden shoes ha ha  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: the big hammer on December 06, 2008, 04:40:39 PM
How Big Is this Cage/Trap?

If cage was estimated at 7.5 FT by 7.5 FT by 2.5 FT -- can someone get a fix on size of material in bags in order to see if these can be sized to remains?

.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 04:43:13 PM
How Big Is this Cage/Trap?

If cage was estimated at 7.5 FT by 7.5 FT by 2.5 FT -- can someone get a fix on size of material in bags in order to see if these can be sized to remains?

.

Good question.  If someone posted the know dimensions of that trap I missed it.  It's hard to tell how big it is.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 04:43:31 PM
Johan - do you think it's a leg bone or the humerus, which is the upper arm?   I didn't see anything for the legs in the photographs and I kind of thought that they had been dragged away by scavengers or something.

i have a special programm for underwater pics and i think it is a leg bone yes
and i think this is not the F-mans hut cage



Wow, Johan you are good.  I knew there was a reason why I didn't boycott you along with the tulips!   ::MonkeyHaHa::

i send you wooden shoes ha ha  ::MonkeyHaHa::




 ::MonkeyDance::  Believe it or not, I think I have a pair in the attic.  If I remember, they have little windmills painted on them.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 06, 2008, 04:57:26 PM
next week many debates in the Dutch Parliament are scheduled concerning Aruba / Antilles.
http://www.tweedekamer.nl/vergaderingen/commissievergaderingen/per_commissie/commissieoverzicht.jsp?COMM=NAAZ

Wednesday or Thursday - Prime-minister Balkenende is also summoned to attend the debate.

all this in preparation for the Round Table Conference in Willemstad, Curaçao on December 15th.

you could consider e-mailing the committee for Aruba / Antilles affairs to put pressure on them.
you never know if that will tip over the balance and have them to finally send the National Police Internal Investigations Department (http://www.om.nl/vast_menu_blok/english/the_national_police/) over the Aruba to investigate the Justice Department, OM and Police.

Hero Brinkman is already demanding this, but for now he seems to be on his own.

here are all the members of the committee for Aruba / Antilles affairs:
http://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerleden/commissies/NAAZ/index.jsp

click on a name and then click on 'Naar persoonlijke pagina' and you see their e-mail adress.
the names on the top of the list are the highest ranking members (longest serving).
they most likely will have to most influence.
most critical of Aruba are the members Remkes, Raak, Gent, Bochove and of course Brinkman.
Beek is heading the committee.

this is the e-mail adress of the committee secretary: cie.naaz@tweedekamer.nl


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 05:02:03 PM
How Big Is this Cage/Trap?

If cage was estimated at 7.5 FT by 7.5 FT by 2.5 FT -- can someone get a fix on size of material in bags in order to see if these can be sized to remains?

.



I think those are the estimated measurements for the cage from the huts.  This commercial cage is much larger and requires a crane to lift it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 06, 2008, 05:03:18 PM
already posted before by Johan.
but here an article about a Dutch psychic coming over to Aruba to dig in the beach to find Natalee.
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50206.php
but if someone really wants to, i could give a summary. but i don't believe in such things.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 05:05:49 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 05:08:08 PM
caps tols last week that this cage is still there ,maybe they use it for drugs smuggling  ::MonkeyWink::

Didn't Caps say it was a post office?  I took that to mean a place to drop off drugs.  Depth of 90 not out of the realm of a skin dive although would be easier/safer with scuba equip.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 05:08:40 PM
already posted before by Johan.
but here an article about a Dutch psychic coming over to Aruba to dig in the beach to find Natalee.
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50206.php
but if someone really wants to, i could give a summary. but i don't believe in such things.

Thanks Caesu - I don't believe it either  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 05:10:59 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS

OS

What's bothering me is the photo that Kyle supplied with Natalee superimposed.  For what purpose was that photo done? 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 05:13:35 PM
SS
I don't know that Dave has said anything.  Kermit gave the second set of photographs (12/30) to Beth in March (I think) and that would have been when PI learned about them.  According to ldstlou, Hotshot, and others, Jug is saying that nothing was in the cage.  Dave and Robin obviously received the 12/29 photographs from the FBI, because Robin posted them at BFN.  I wonder if it's too big of a stretch to wonder if the reason why the photographs were posted at BFN was to expose a cover up and put pressure on ALE and the Persistence crew?????

Robin posted them in a private site BNH .I think she asked posters NOT to take them out of that site.
Someone did and I'm not sure if Klaas,or Red got them or RU got them first. But they were OUT.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 05:21:25 PM
already posted before by Johan.
but here an article about a Dutch psychic coming over to Aruba to dig in the beach to find Natalee.
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50206.php
but if someone really wants to, i could give a summary. but i don't believe in such things.

Thanks Caesu - I don't believe it either  ::MonkeyWink::

HUH ? why not ? the  Dutch psychics are the best in the world  !!!! ::MonkeyDance::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 05:25:24 PM
Johan - where is Joran?  Is he in Thailand, Manila or the NL?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 06, 2008, 05:25:47 PM
Quote
Aruba
`Rudy Croes a stain on minister's office'
6 Dec, 2008, 14:47 (GMT -04:00)

Oranjestad - The office of minister is a job with responsibilities in a country, but minister of justice Rudy Croes makes a mess of it in recent revelations concerning the Natalee Holloway-case. That is the opinion of Andin Bikker of the opposition party Partido Democracia Real (PDR).

The party leader says that the minister must submit his resignation.
Reason for this are the accusation by Rudy Croes on Thursday nationally and internationally about the leader of the investiigation of the Holloway case, former police chief Jan van der Straten. He allegedly helped his`friend' and then judge in in training, Paul van der Sloot, in the first days of the investigation into missing American girl. This after his son Joran had been pointed to as a suspecte, said minister Croes.
The allegations concerning cronyism and corruption have totally surprised the PDR, Bikker wrote in a press bulletin. How is it possible that minister Rudy Croes comes forward with this after so many years. He publicly admits that he as a minister was perfectly aware of these facts concerning the largest police force investigation that we have known in the history of our country. These serious charges should have an impact on him as he is responsible as minister. This information has also reached the international press, this will cause damage to our country in a time that tourism goes through a difficult time. It now seems to me he better submit his resignation, if not he should be forced to resign the parliament.
According to Bikker the charges of Croes make it also possible that `the Kingdom' intervenes on the basis of Article 43 of the statute.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/printer_50203.php

the Dutch can intervene using Article 43 of the Statute by sending over the National Police Internal Investigations Department (http://www.om.nl/vast_menu_blok/english/the_national_police/) to investigate ALE.
Brinkman is already demanding this from the Dutch government.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 05:25:50 PM
(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




You were correct Tim Miller.  There were human remains in that crab trap and even a bunch of monkeys were able to blow up a few pictures to identify a skull and a pelvic bone.

When Tim Miller talked about the day they found the cage,
with the double rainbows and the dolphins leading the ship
out to sea, it was very touching to me.  There is no way
that man did not believe in what he was doing.


I know   ::MonkeyNoNo::

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/rainbow_003.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/dolphins2.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 05:28:25 PM

So you believe they put what appear to be human remains in a cage to make money from TV people??

Hi

The only thing I see in the cage is what could possibly be a skull. is it? I don't know. Could it be yes? was it tested? I don't know, might have missed that report.

Then comes the pics of ziplock bags in a cage.

I am just asking questions.

I don't keep up with all the details like some of you do.

OS





Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: caesu on December 06, 2008, 05:29:57 PM
Quote
Aruba
`Rudy Croes a stain on minister's office'
6 Dec, 2008, 14:47 (GMT -04:00)

Oranjestad - The office of minister is a job with responsibilities in a country, but minister of justice Rudy Croes makes a mess of it in recent revelations concerning the Natalee Holloway-case. That is the opinion of Andin Bikker of the opposition party Partido Democracia Real (PDR).

The party leader says that the minister must submit his resignation.
Reason for this are the accusation by Rudy Croes on Thursday nationally and internationally about the leader of the investiigation of the Holloway case, former police chief Jan van der Straten. He allegedly helped his`friend' and then judge in in training, Paul van der Sloot, in the first days of the investigation into missing American girl. This after his son Joran had been pointed to as a suspecte, said minister Croes.
The allegations concerning cronyism and corruption have totally surprised the PDR, Bikker wrote in a press bulletin. How is it possible that minister Rudy Croes comes forward with this after so many years. He publicly admits that he as a minister was perfectly aware of these facts concerning the largest police force investigation that we have known in the history of our country. These serious charges should have an impact on him as he is responsible as minister. This information has also reached the international press, this will cause damage to our country in a time that tourism goes through a difficult time. It now seems to me he better submit his resignation, if not he should be forced to resign by the parliament.
According to Bikker the charges of Croes make it also possible that `the Kingdom' intervenes on the basis of Article 43 of the statute.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/printer_50203.php

the Dutch can intervene using Article 43 of the Statute by sending over the National Police Internal Investigations Department (http://www.om.nl/vast_menu_blok/english/the_national_police/) to investigate ALE.
Brinkman is already demanding this from the Dutch government.

correction: if not he should be forced to resign by the parliament.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 05:31:05 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)
Whoa!!!!  Ok, now I am really confused.....You are showing the leg bone which is the largest bone in the human body in a ziplock bag???   (Where is Wreck when I need him???) Are all those things in the cage that bIG????  How big is a 18 year human skulll???  What is the discoloration on the bottom of the cage?????  We when first saw the cage, there was a skull and a shoe, where are they in the ziplock picture????   I am the size of a 10 year old child, my leg bone is 15 in long.....it will not fit in a zip lock bag!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
Johan - where is Joran?  Is he in Thailand, Manila or the NL?

Justice Thailand has confirmed last week that he is still in Thailand.
GBMW told me that


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 05:33:00 PM
Johan - where is Joran?  Is he in Thailand, Manila or the NL?

Justice Thailand has confirmed last week that he is still in Thailand.
GBMW told me that

Thanks  ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 05:35:47 PM
Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?




We don't have that image and I don't know if one exists unless it's on the ROV footage.  Kyle discovered the cage very early on Christmas morning.  According to Kye, they did some claculations, etc.  Tim then contacted Dave.  Somewhere, in this thread or the last thread Kyle explains what he and Tim did.  I have never seen a photograph, though.  The photographs that were taken on 12/29 were four days after the cage was found.  I don't know how long it took them to send the ROV down for closeups or if the ROV had already been launched.  I don't know if once they launched the ROV it stayed in the water or if they had to relaunch it every day.  It could be possible that the ROV was in the water on 12/25 or maybe Kyle was just reviewing some ROV footage on 12/25.  It could very well be that the photographs on 12/29 were the first ones.


Does anyone have Kyle's description of Tim and him examining the cage for the first time?
The ROV
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/sea1.jpg)
I  brighten this up, i see something in this cage and maybe this is what Tim Miller saw, when he called Dave?

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/persistence/sea33.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 05:36:52 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)




Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?

I believe that bone is the femur.  Largest bone in the body.
Hooray for Johan


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 05:40:20 PM
caps tols last week that this cage is still there ,maybe they use it for drugs smuggling  ::MonkeyWink::

Didn't Caps say it was a post office?  I took that to mean a place to drop off drugs.  Depth of 90 not out of the realm of a skin dive although would be easier/safer with scuba equip.




Yes Klaas, he did say that.  He says that the cage is used to transfer drugs from South America to Aruba where they are then sent on to Holland.  Ecstacy is then sent back from Holland to Aruba to the cage and back to South America.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 05:40:41 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bonecopy-2.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 05:42:48 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)
Whoa!!!!  Ok, now I am really confused.....You are showing the leg bone which is the largest bone in the human body in a ziplock bag???   (Where is Wreck when I need him???) Are all those things in the cage that bIG????  How big is a 18 year human skulll???  What is the discoloration on the bottom of the cage?????  We when first saw the cage, there was a skull and a shoe, where are they in the ziplock picture????   I am the size of a 10 year old child, my leg bone is 15 in long.....it will not fit in a zip lock bag!!!




A-1  - they are not regular ziplock bags.  They are huge evidence bags that just happen to zip shut at the top.   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 05:45:31 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   




I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.

I do not think they let Jossy in on the fact of finding the remains.
But then again....his son was one of the divers.  However,
he was not suited up on the Dateline photos when they  show
Tim Traham all suited up to dive.  I am disagreeing with myself. ::MonkeyHaHa::

He wasn't suited up BUT three men were in that water.
   Eduardo Mansur, co-founder of the Aruba Search and Rescue Foundation. ...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 05:50:35 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS

OS

What's bothering me is the photo that Kyle supplied with Natalee superimposed.  For what purpose was that photo done? 




It was done so that Kyle could calculate and compare the remains in the trap to Natalee.  He superimposed her photograph from earlier in the day over the remains and did some mathematical calculations.  I have always been convinced that Natalee was on land, but these calculations really have me thinking.
*********

From Kermit

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Hotshot on December 06, 2008, 05:50:53 PM
I am sooooo spitting mad, I had to share it with you guys.  I just spoke to (2) of the people who used to hang with Joran.  Told them the good news about all that is happening right there in their back yard.  They have not heard of it, nor do they care...... All the (2) can think of is those (2) B--chs, who wrote that book, and those 2 crazies that came to aruba (psycics), and Beths timeline.  They don't have FOX news, and all Aruba has brainwashed them with the stuff they want them to hear.  They don't want to follow the case, nor do they want to know the outcome.  Just as long as it comes to an end.  I have talked to these people for almost 2 years now, and they just don't want to talk about anything about Natalee.  Boy are they all going to get a big surprise when all this comes to light.....They really thought it was an insurance scam, on our part.... I am sending klaas the whole chat.  She can do what she wants with it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 05:51:52 PM
johan

If that's a scapula, in front of your outlined bone, then that bone looks pretty small.  If it is a bone, the end and size looks more like a possible ulna bone.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 05:52:05 PM
Where did Kermit say that Eduardo Mansur was one of the divers?  I would like to read that again if anyone has a link.  TIA




TM - if I recall it went like this.....
Kyle wouldn't identify the diver as Eduardo
We compared pictures of Eduardo onboard with the life vest and from the family wedding
I finally asked Kermit if it was Eduardo
I can't remember where it is right now
The same thing happened with identifying John Silvetti
Kyle said he came onboard with the Arubans
We continued to compared photographs
I asked Kermit and Kermit said Yes
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.40


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 05:54:46 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)
Whoa!!!!  Ok, now I am really confused.....You are showing the leg bone which is the largest bone in the human body in a ziplock bag???   (Where is Wreck when I need him???) Are all those things in the cage that bIG????  How big is a 18 year human skulll???  What is the discoloration on the bottom of the cage?????  We when first saw the cage, there was a skull and a shoe, where are they in the ziplock picture????   I am the size of a 10 year old child, my leg bone is 15 in long.....it will not fit in a zip lock bag!!!




A-1  - they are not regular ziplock bags.  They are huge evidence bags that just happen to zip shut at the top.   ::MonkeyHaHa::
Oh my gosh, are you kidding, well Im going to crawl to the back of the cage and hope Wreck doesn't read this.........................


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 05:56:10 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   

I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.

I do not think they let Jossy in on the fact of finding the remains.
But then again....his son was one of the divers.  However,
he was not suited up on the Dateline photos when they  show
Tim Traham all suited up to dive.  I am disagreeing with myself. ::MonkeyHaHa::

I think he knows everything, Mags.  Eduardo is the founder of Aruba Search and Rescue.  Even if he wasn't suited up in those pictures, Kermit says he was one of the divers.  Jossy is also good buds with Silvetti.  They are doing all of those witness polygraphs and stuff together.  My question is why is Silvetti so invested in the current witnesses after he handed the cage contents off to ALE?  Silvetti was even part of that meeting in September with Caps, Jossy, the witness, and as one monkey seems to have learned - de Vries.  Unfortunately, Mos wouldn't meet with them, they all went home, and Jossy published his first two Diario articles.  Jossy and Silvetti know each other very well.

What is Jossy's motivation?  Hmmm...he lives on the island.  His family lives on the island.  His children and grandchildren live on the island.  He has a business on the island.  He has a real interest in seeing this case solved.  What profit is there for him to continue to see Aruba suffer economically? 

Is Jossy a father?  Could Natalee Holloway have been one of his daughters or granddaughters?

Why is Silvetti so interesting searching for Natalee Holloway?  Might he have the same interest as thousands of others?  Finding Natalee Holloway?  Restoring her to her family?  Justice?

Is Mr. Silvetti a father?  Does he have a family he cares about?  Maybe his interest is something simple like 'compassion'.  His reasons, like mine, are my own.

From what I've seen during the many year Natalee has been missing, I like Jossy, I like John Silvetti, and the thousands of others that have come together on Aruba, on the internet, and in many other places.  I stand with the girl.

Do I need to know what motivates any one person?  No.  I stand with the girl and all those like her. 

When there is a focus, I believe the road(s) travelled are not as important at the end destination, even if we don't know exactly where we're going 100% of the time, we stop and rest, and some of us travel a different path.

just my humble opinions




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 05:57:23 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)
Whoa!!!!  Ok, now I am really confused.....You are showing the leg bone which is the largest bone in the human body in a ziplock bag???   (Where is Wreck when I need him???) Are all those things in the cage that bIG????  How big is a 18 year human skulll???  What is the discoloration on the bottom of the cage?????  We when first saw the cage, there was a skull and a shoe, where are they in the ziplock picture????   I am the size of a 10 year old child, my leg bone is 15 in long.....it will not fit in a zip lock bag!!!




A-1  - they are not regular ziplock bags.  They are huge evidence bags that just happen to zip shut at the top.   ::MonkeyHaHa::
Oh my gosh, are you kidding, well Im going to crawl to the back of the cage and hope Wreck doesn't read this.........................

More bones

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone-14.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 05:58:29 PM
And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   




I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.

I do not think they let Jossy in on the fact of finding the remains.
But then again....his son was one of the divers.  However,
he was not suited up on the Dateline photos when they  show
Tim Traham all suited up to dive.  I am disagreeing with myself. ::MonkeyHaHa::

He wasn't suited up BUT three men were in that water.
   Eduardo Mansur, co-founder of the Aruba Search and Rescue Foundation. ...






Even if he didn't dive for the Dateline documentary on the 30th, it doesn't mean that he didn't dive on January 7th. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 05:59:20 PM
Where did Kermit say that Eduardo Mansur was one of the divers?  I would like to read that again if anyone has a link.  TIA




TM - if I recall it went like this.....
Kyle wouldn't identify the diver as Eduardo
We compared pictures of Eduardo onboard with the life vest and from the family wedding
I finally asked Kermit if it was Eduardo
I can't remember where it is right now
The same thing happened with identifying John Silvetti
Kyle said he came onboard with the Arubans
We continued to compared photographs
I asked Kermit and Kermit said Yes
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.40

And Kyle kept insisting that the man in the red shirt was not
John Silvetti.....but it was.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 06:02:06 PM
So, the cage looks like it is placed the same way, but those are different bags right?????


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 06:02:15 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS

OS

What's bothering me is the photo that Kyle supplied with Natalee superimposed.  For what purpose was that photo done? 

Hi Klaas,

Nice to see you.

It makes no sense to me. Like Natalee would be found in the same exact position as she was standing alive on the beach. OK!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish he would get his butt back here and explain just that if nothing else, if indeed he is the one that did it.

I just don't know. I am getting a headache, don't know how you do it..

OS











Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 06:04:44 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)
Whoa!!!!  Ok, now I am really confused.....You are showing the leg bone which is the largest bone in the human body in a ziplock bag???   (Where is Wreck when I need him???) Are all those things in the cage that bIG????  How big is a 18 year human skulll???  What is the discoloration on the bottom of the cage?????  We when first saw the cage, there was a skull and a shoe, where are they in the ziplock picture????   I am the size of a 10 year old child, my leg bone is 15 in long.....it will not fit in a zip lock bag!!!




A-1  - they are not regular ziplock bags.  They are huge evidence bags that just happen to zip shut at the top.   ::MonkeyHaHa::
Oh my gosh, are you kidding, well Im going to crawl to the back of the cage and hope Wreck doesn't read this.........................

More bones

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone-14.jpg)

maybe ribs


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 06:04:58 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)
Whoa!!!!  Ok, now I am really confused.....You are showing the leg bone which is the largest bone in the human body in a ziplock bag???   (Where is Wreck when I need him???) Are all those things in the cage that bIG????  How big is a 18 year human skulll???  What is the discoloration on the bottom of the cage?????  We when first saw the cage, there was a skull and a shoe, where are they in the ziplock picture????   I am the size of a 10 year old child, my leg bone is 15 in long.....it will not fit in a zip lock bag!!!




A-1  - they are not regular ziplock bags.  They are huge evidence bags that just happen to zip shut at the top.   ::MonkeyHaHa::
Oh my gosh, are you kidding, well Im going to crawl to the back of the cage and hope Wreck doesn't read this.........................
::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:05:03 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS

OS

What's bothering me is the photo that Kyle supplied with Natalee superimposed.  For what purpose was that photo done? 




It was done so that Kyle could calculate and compare the remains in the trap to Natalee.  He superimposed her photograph from earlier in the day over the remains and did some mathematical calculations.  I have always been convinced that Natalee was on land, but these calculations really have me thinking.
*********

From Kermit

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.  
Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”


So did OE perform this overlay of Natalee based on that pic?  The one taken at 15:40 on 12/30...that would have been captured while the divers were in the water giving a thumbs down signal?  The shot made at 15:40 that nobody seemed to see on the monitors of the Persistence?  I thought when Tim called Dave he used that same terminology of "99.9% sure".  No?

Is someone monkeying around with the Monkeys?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 06:06:51 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)




Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?

I believe that bone is the femur.  Largest bone in the body.
Hooray for Johan

I must be confused...but that bone with the arrow pointing to it is round(ish) like a skull (which is what I think it is, not long like a femur.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 06:07:14 PM
I am sooooo spitting mad, I had to share it with you guys.  I just spoke to (2) of the people who used to hang with Joran.  Told them the good news about all that is happening right there in their back yard.  They have not heard of it, nor do they care...... All the (2) can think of is those (2) B--chs, who wrote that book, and those 2 crazies that came to aruba (psycics), and Beths timeline.  They don't have FOX news, and all Aruba has brainwashed them with the stuff they want them to hear.  They don't want to follow the case, nor do they want to know the outcome.  Just as long as it comes to an end.  I have talked to these people for almost 2 years now, and they just don't want to talk about anything about Natalee.  Boy are they all going to get a big surprise when all this comes to light.....They really thought it was an insurance scam, on our part.... I am sending klaas the whole chat.  She can do what she wants with it.

Hotshot - you can't honestly believe that they would care?  Personally, I think several of Joran's friends know exactly what happened and that includes people like Kawish Misier and Andres dos Santos.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 06:07:27 PM
Johan - In the photograph that you just posted, there are some objects further back in the cage.  Does anything back there look like human remains?  Maybe this cage is a drug post office and a cemetery.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 06:09:27 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Lifesong on December 06, 2008, 06:09:46 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)
Whoa!!!!  Ok, now I am really confused.....You are showing the leg bone which is the largest bone in the human body in a ziplock bag???   (Where is Wreck when I need him???) Are all those things in the cage that bIG????  How big is a 18 year human skulll???  What is the discoloration on the bottom of the cage?????  We when first saw the cage, there was a skull and a shoe, where are they in the ziplock picture????   I am the size of a 10 year old child, my leg bone is 15 in long.....it will not fit in a zip lock bag!!!




A-1  - they are not regular ziplock bags.  They are huge evidence bags that just happen to zip shut at the top.   ::MonkeyHaHa::
Oh my gosh, are you kidding, well Im going to crawl to the back of the cage and hope Wreck doesn't read this.........................

More bones

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone-14.jpg)

Ok - 2 things:

1.  The top picture with the time stamp - I believe that could be the shoulder blade bone (scapula?) in the front bag on the left - matches the bone of the same shape shown in the inset - this would, I think, make the bone Johan has pointed out originally one of the arm bones.  Makes sense...

2.  Compare the front bag on the right in both of the pictures above.  This is why I do not think the material is a policeman's cap/hat whatever.  In the pic on top, it does appear the material is wrapped around the pelvic/hip bone.  In the pic on the bottom, it looks like the water has pushed the bag forward showing the other side of it, this being the biological stain Kyle was describing resulting from organic materials left on the material when it was placed there.

Now - where is the skull?  I count 4 bags, is this right?



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 06:10:35 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bonecopy-2.jpg)

Oh now I see the bone you are pointing out. IMO still to thin to be the femur, and femur does not have < on the end of it. Ball and socket on one end........


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 06:12:19 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS

OS

What's bothering me is the photo that Kyle supplied with Natalee superimposed.  For what purpose was that photo done? 




It was done so that Kyle could calculate and compare the remains in the trap to Natalee.  He superimposed her photograph from earlier in the day over the remains and did some mathematical calculations.  I have always been convinced that Natalee was on land, but these calculations really have me thinking.
*********

From Kermit

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.  
Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”


So did OE perform this overlay of Natalee based on that pic?  The one taken at 15:40 on 12/30...that would have been captured while the divers were in the water giving a thumbs down signal?  The shot made at 15:40 that nobody seemed to see on the monitors of the Persistence?  I thought when Tim called Dave he used that same terminology of "99.9% sure".  No?

Is someone monkeying around with the Monkeys?





TruthSeeker you are right!  According to what Kyle has said, Tim did see his overlay and calculations.  Oh, my God.


Look toward the rear of the photograph above.  Does this answer your earlier question about the cage?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:12:34 PM
I am sooooo spitting mad, I had to share it with you guys.  I just spoke to (2) of the people who used to hang with Joran.  Told them the good news about all that is happening right there in their back yard.  They have not heard of it, nor do they care...... All the (2) can think of is those (2) B--chs, who wrote that book, and those 2 crazies that came to aruba (psycics), and Beths timeline.  They don't have FOX news, and all Aruba has brainwashed them with the stuff they want them to hear.  They don't want to follow the case, nor do they want to know the outcome.  Just as long as it comes to an end.  I have talked to these people for almost 2 years now, and they just don't want to talk about anything about Natalee.  Boy are they all going to get a big surprise when all this comes to light.....They really thought it was an insurance scam, on our part.... I am sending klaas the whole chat.  She can do what she wants with it.

Hotshot - you can't honestly believe that they would care?  Personally, I think several of Joran's friends know exactly what happened and that includes people like Kawish Misier and Andres dos Santos.

Klaas, I agree.  Especially about Andres dos Santos.  There are people on that island that know exactly what happened and their are in addition to Poppa Sloot.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 06:14:56 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS

OS

What's bothering me is the photo that Kyle supplied with Natalee superimposed.  For what purpose was that photo done? 

 I think Kermit told me to show that Natalee would fit in the cage Kermit help.
  ::MonkeyConfused::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 06:15:06 PM
i think these are arm bones nr 21

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone-14.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Skelet_uitleg.jpg)



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 06:15:28 PM

Good to see you, Ospainter.   All reasonable questions....were the photos a set up, too, in your opinion?

Hi 2NJSons_Mom,

Good to see you too.

It does seem convenient that you see what could be a skull, then a bed of sand below it that is hiding all this evidence that shows up in pics.

Then the evidence just happens to fit a pic of Natalee on the beach.

Amazing to me that not one news organization would touch it..Powerful stuff if true.

I guess we have to wait and see, like everything else in this case.


OS

OS

What's bothering me is the photo that Kyle supplied with Natalee superimposed.  For what purpose was that photo done? 

Hi Klaas,

Nice to see you.

It makes no sense to me. Like Natalee would be found in the same exact position as she was standing alive on the beach. OK!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish he would get his butt back here and explain just that if nothing else, if indeed he is the one that did it.

I just don't know. I am getting a headache, don't know how you do it..

OS











It appears there were human remains in that trap, the question is whos?  Why would Kyle go to such lengths to make it appear to be Natalee's remains?  Was it Natalee?  Was it someone else?  Will we ever know?

I know..I don't know how I do it either  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:15:50 PM

So did OE perform this overlay of Natalee based on that pic?  The one taken at 15:40 on 12/30...that would have been captured while the divers were in the water giving a thumbs down signal?  The shot made at 15:40 that nobody seemed to see on the monitors of the Persistence?  I thought when Tim called Dave he used that same terminology of "99.9% sure".  No?

Is someone monkeying around with the Monkeys?





TruthSeeker you are right!  According to what Kyle has said, Tim did see his overlay and calculations.  Oh, my God.


Look toward the rear of the photograph above.  Does this answer your earlier question about the cage?

Which photo.  (there are quite a few photos above.  And what do YOU see at the rear of the photo?)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 06:17:18 PM
Johan - In the photograph that you just posted, there are some objects further back in the cage.  Does anything back there look like human remains?  Maybe this cage is a drug post office and a cemetery.

i will have a look ,the problem is that the pics are low res and small only 60 kb


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 06:22:25 PM
In the one picture, it looks like a reflection of a skelton.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 06:23:39 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)

Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?

I believe that bone is the femur.  Largest bone in the body.
Hooray for Johan

I wonder why a bone would show up as just white in this picture?  Where is the biomatter covering the bone?  Algae?  Ocean beasties?  

In some ways, it looks more like a crescent wrench reflecting in the water.  I think ocean currents, water, and other optic influences may make it look a little bent.

I still wonder why the baggies were piled up in the trap.  Why weren't they taken out when filled?  What's the point of taking a picture of them piled up like that?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 06:27:03 PM
In the one picture, it looks like a reflection of a skelton.
This one???

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Skelet_uitleg.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Lifesong on December 06, 2008, 06:27:27 PM

This has been nagging at me since Kermit posted these pics...

Wouldn't actual evidence photos be layed out either 1) in the positions they were found in the cage; or 2) in a row so that the contents can be seen?

Why group up the bags so the pics don't even show the contents of all of the bags?

I get that there are more pictures we don't have, but this 'grouping' bothers me.

Kermit - do you have more pictures from Kyle that you can not or have not posted?

Kyle - I'm sure you're keeping up with this - why get these pics to the family and not one taken from the rover that actually shows the evidence? 



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 06:29:27 PM
Wreck  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 06:30:11 PM

So did OE perform this overlay of Natalee based on that pic?  The one taken at 15:40 on 12/30...that would have been captured while the divers were in the water giving a thumbs down signal?  The shot made at 15:40 that nobody seemed to see on the monitors of the Persistence?  I thought when Tim called Dave he used that same terminology of "99.9% sure".  No?

Is someone monkeying around with the Monkeys?





TruthSeeker you are right!  According to what Kyle has said, Tim did see his overlay and calculations.  Oh, my God.


Look toward the rear of the photograph above.  Does this answer your earlier question about the cage?

Which photo.  (there are quite a few photos above.  And what do YOU see at the rear of the photo?)




This one.  It doesn't look like there's an opening at the rear of the cage.  Is this what you were asking?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 06:31:52 PM
Phone call Wreck.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 06:32:27 PM
Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?



The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


Tim Miller: I stepped on the boat and said “Natalee we're coming to get you.” Now we're finally coming to get you. And I still believe that from the bottom of my heart. She's out here and now we're on our way.

Over the holiday season, the crew of the persistence worked day and night to survey the ocean floor and look for targets that could hold the key to finding Natalee.

On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: the big hammer on December 06, 2008, 06:32:27 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.

Right: 7.5 FT X 7.5 FT X 2.5 FT

I count 21 squares.  But I think we are seeing only 1/2 the cage in that view and the actual size across is 40-42 squares.

Klaas, can you re-post the view of the cage so the entire thing is visible -- need to get a sense of dimensions and scale.

Thanks.

.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:32:57 PM
I think this is a human Bone !

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone.jpg)

Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?

I believe that bone is the femur.  Largest bone in the body.
Hooray for Johan

I wonder why a bone would show up as just white in this picture?  Where is the biomatter covering the bone?  Algae?  Ocean beasties?  

In some ways, it looks more like a crescent wrench reflecting in the water.  I think ocean currents, water, and other optic influences may make it look a little bent.

I still wonder why the baggies were piled up in the trap.  Why weren't they taken out when filled?  What's the point of taking a picture of them piled up like that?


It looks as though it could be the reflection from whatever type of light is being used while the video is being shot.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 06:34:13 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.

Are there any shots of the cage with a known object inside?  A ruler?  

Like when someone puts a penny next to an object to show it's size?  


 ::cartwheel::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
i think these are arm bones nr 21

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Bone-14.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Skelet_uitleg.jpg)



#21 is 1 bone humerus, forearm has 2 bones radius /ulna


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:34:35 PM

So did OE perform this overlay of Natalee based on that pic?  The one taken at 15:40 on 12/30...that would have been captured while the divers were in the water giving a thumbs down signal?  The shot made at 15:40 that nobody seemed to see on the monitors of the Persistence?  I thought when Tim called Dave he used that same terminology of "99.9% sure".  No?

Is someone monkeying around with the Monkeys?





TruthSeeker you are right!  According to what Kyle has said, Tim did see his overlay and calculations.  Oh, my God.


Look toward the rear of the photograph above.  Does this answer your earlier question about the cage?

Which photo.  (there are quite a few photos above.  And what do YOU see at the rear of the photo?)




This one.  It doesn't look like there's an opening at the rear of the cage.  Is this what you were asking?

Well, from the angle of this shot it may be difficult to see that opening on the side of the cage.  There is a sliver of 'light' there that could be it.  Hard to tell, though.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:36:06 PM
In the one picture, it looks like a reflection of a skelton.
This one???

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/Skelet_uitleg.jpg)

 ::MonkeyLaugh::  Hard to tell, though, with those distracting red numbers all over it.  ::MonkeyLaugh::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 06:37:14 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.

Are there any shots of the cage with a known object inside?  A ruler?  

Like when someone puts a penny next to an object to show it's size?  



I don't know where that cartwheel came from.  I tried to post this for like 10 minutes!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 06:39:45 PM
Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?



The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


Tim Miller: I stepped on the boat and said “Natalee we're coming to get you.” Now we're finally coming to get you. And I still believe that from the bottom of my heart. She's out here and now we're on our way.

Over the holiday season, the crew of the persistence worked day and night to survey the ocean floor and look for targets that could hold the key to finding Natalee.

On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.

... In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:40:29 PM
Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?



The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008


Tim Miller: I stepped on the boat and said “Natalee we're coming to get you.” Now we're finally coming to get you. And I still believe that from the bottom of my heart. She's out here and now we're on our way.

Over the holiday season, the crew of the persistence worked day and night to survey the ocean floor and look for targets that could hold the key to finding Natalee.

On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/



But when he made the call did he tell Dave he was "99.9% certain"?  If so, did he base that on the 12/29 pics?  Seems like Kyle would have us infer that it was based on the pic where he did the overlay of Natalee.  That pic was captured on 12/30...after the thumbs down signal.  Maybe kyle did another overlay on one of the 12/29 pics????


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 06:40:36 PM
the big hammer,

Blonde has photos here on this thread...posts 23, 24 have a full cage view but I'm not sure if it's what you are looking for....I'll bring if over if you pick one.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 06:40:44 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.

Right: 7.5 FT X 7.5 FT X 2.5 FT

I count 21 squares.  But I think we are seeing only 1/2 the cage in that view and the actual size across is 40-42 squares.

Klaas, can you re-post the view of the cage so the entire thing is visible -- need to get a sense of dimensions and scale.

Thanks.

.




Hammer - I think that's just the size of each of the six sections.  The entire cage has to be bigger than 7.5 x 7.5.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 06:42:21 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 06:43:23 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.

Right: 7.5 FT X 7.5 FT X 2.5 FT

I count 21 squares.  But I think we are seeing only 1/2 the cage in that view and the actual size across is 40-42 squares.

Klaas, can you re-post the view of the cage so the entire thing is visible -- need to get a sense of dimensions and scale.

Thanks.

.

Do you think the samples might be on the "collapsed" door??  Maybe only 7.5 X 2.5 ft??


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 06:43:29 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.

SS - do you have a full picture of the cage handy?  For Hammer?  Was the 7.5x7.5 the size of the one in the ocean or the size of the one at the Fisherman's Huts?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: San on December 06, 2008, 06:43:35 PM
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d118/Sanddrops/Scared%20Monkeys/LOCK2.gif)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 06:44:46 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.

Kyle's measurements were in feet: 7.5 x 7.5 x 2-2.5 ft. IIRC


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 06:45:06 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.

SS - do you have a full picture of the cage handy?  For Hammer?  Was the 7.5x7.5 the size of the one in the ocean or the size of the one at the Fisherman's Huts?

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.20

Post 22 has full view of top and one side.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 06:45:52 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.

SS - do you have a full picture of the cage handy?  For Hammer?  Was the 7.5x7.5 the size of the one in the ocean or the size of the one at the Fisherman's Huts?

Kyle specified, the one in the water...don't remember him saying it was a different one than the one by the huts.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 06:46:07 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.

Right: 7.5 FT X 7.5 FT X 2.5 FT

I count 21 squares.  But I think we are seeing only 1/2 the cage in that view and the actual size across is 40-42 squares.

Klaas, can you re-post the view of the cage so the entire thing is visible -- need to get a sense of dimensions and scale.

Thanks.

.

Do you think the samples might be on the "collapsed" door??  Maybe only 7.5 X 2.5 ft??
That is what I think -- collapsed door.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 06:46:30 PM
do you have more pics Blonde or Klaas ?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:46:45 PM
With Kyle's estimate, the cage is 7.5 feet (80 inches) wide.  I count about 20 little squares across. That would make each square about 4 inches square.

Right: 7.5 FT X 7.5 FT X 2.5 FT

I count 21 squares.  But I think we are seeing only 1/2 the cage in that view and the actual size across is 40-42 squares.

Klaas, can you re-post the view of the cage so the entire thing is visible -- need to get a sense of dimensions and scale.

Thanks.

.




Hammer - I think that's just the size of each of the six sections.  The entire cage has to be bigger than 7.5 x 7.5.


In the photo you have here we can see the opening on the side of the cage.  Look at the top left of the shot.  I see it there.  By my claculations, the divers were on the correct end of the cage to see what we believe may be human remains.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 06:47:11 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.

SS - do you have a full picture of the cage handy?  For Hammer?  Was the 7.5x7.5 the size of the one in the ocean or the size of the one at the Fisherman's Huts?


Only what I just posted.  Maybe this one will help.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 06:47:24 PM

It appears there were human remains in that trap, the question is whos?  Why would Kyle go to such lengths to make it appear to be Natalee's remains?  Was it Natalee?  Was it someone else?  Will we ever know?

I know..I don't know how I do it either  ::MonkeyWink::

I agree it looks like a skull of a human. Could be anyone including Natalee. FBI should have DNA results on skull and can verify if it's Natalee I would think unless they never received the

skull, but why send Blue material and not skull????

Why would Kyle go to such legnths-guess Kyle will have to answer that, I have no idea unless for money, only logical conclusion I can come up with.

Or maybe Kyle thought he could expose coverup in Aruba, but why then not give pics to FBI, that sure doesn't make sense. I would have marched pics to FBI myself not send  in

emails to someone on the internet don't care who they are.

Questions, more questions. I am done thinking for today, my brain is tired.

OS







Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 06:49:19 PM
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/cagecomp.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 06:49:46 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.

SS - do you have a full picture of the cage handy?  For Hammer?  Was the 7.5x7.5 the size of the one in the ocean or the size of the one at the Fisherman's Huts?

Kyle specified, the one in the water...don't remember him saying it was a different one than the one by the huts.



I think 7.5 x 7.5 is the size of the one from the hut.  They had it replicated before they left the dock for the search, so they would know what to look for on sonar.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 06:50:39 PM
OE

As for the trap being the one that was reportedly next to the fisherman's huts...I honestly don't know and can't prove that it is or isn't at this point.  I believe early on Dompig referred to the fish trap as being HUGE at one point.  A 5'x 4' trap hardly qualifies as huge.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2673.msg362094#msg362094


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 06:52:47 PM
Hammer - are Kyle's measurements in feet or meters?  The cage could be 7.5 meters x 7.5 meters.

SS - do you have a full picture of the cage handy?  For Hammer?  Was the 7.5x7.5 the size of the one in the ocean or the size of the one at the Fisherman's Huts?


Only what I just posted.  Maybe this one will help.
9 sections -- "remains" on collapsed door


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Hotshot on December 06, 2008, 06:54:53 PM
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/gummy_2006/armbone1.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/gummy_2006/manintrap1-1.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/gummy_2006/manintrap1.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 06:54:54 PM
Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.
I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.




Blue Moon - I'm so glad that you posted this.  Knowing what we know now, this is such a crock.  How can he be posting this nonsense when he knows exactly what happened with the trap.  He gave the contents to ALE after "supervising the sampling from the trap".  According to Caps, the trap itself is still there eleven months later.  Why pull it up now - it's empty.

I believe that Kyle is referring to the actual trap ... not the contents.  Apparently ...after the contents were recovered ... the trap was left on the ocean floor.

IMO.

Janet


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 06:56:23 PM
More from OE:

- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366374#msg366374


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:58:43 PM
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/cagecomp.jpg)

Mice, Klaas!

So, if it's 7.5ft by 7.5 ft with 3 sections each way, each square is aboutn 2' x 3.8 by 2' x 3.8.  Natalee was about 5' 2" or 5' 4".  Right?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 06:59:19 PM
LOL.  I meant to say Nice, Klaas.  Not Mice!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 07:04:05 PM
Do you like my Christmas avatar with the swinging balls? Thanks to CBB...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 07:04:49 PM
LOL oops meant to say BELLS. ::MonkeyTongue::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 07:05:07 PM
Do you like my Christmas avatar with the swinging balls? Thanks to CBB...


Hi BB,

I do...

OS


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 07:05:20 PM
Do you like my Christmas avatar with the swinging balls? Thanks to CBB...

::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::Dude!!!! ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 07:06:40 PM
Do you like my Christmas avatar with the swinging balls? Thanks to CBB...


Hi BB,

I do...

OS

LOL, didn't even see that..



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 07:08:36 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cage-18.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cagecompcopy.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 07:08:47 PM
Os, Truthseeker2and all other monkeys...... :smt114 :smt111


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: the big hammer on December 06, 2008, 07:08:57 PM
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/cagecomp.jpg)

Looks Like 9 Equally-Sized Sections on Cage

Perfect, Klaas.  Thank You.

Now run the math based on kyle's estimated size:

7.5 ft X 12 inches per foot = 90 inches.

9 equally sized squares comprise full cage at 30 inches by 30 inches by 30 inches (2.5 FT X 12 for height).

Looks like each equally sized cage square has 20 net count across -- meaning each are about 1.5 inches across.  Further, look to size of divers as full grown men averaging about 5'10" each in height and compare to 9 squares on the cage.

Yes?

Now -- did Kyle mean METERS or FEET.

Huge difference.  But with divers to scale -- it doesn't look like METERS to me.

.

.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 07:09:45 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tamikosmom on December 06, 2008, 07:11:21 PM
Quote
Aruba
`Rudy Croes a stain on minister's office'
6 Dec, 2008, 14:47 (GMT -04:00)

Oranjestad - The office of minister is a job with responsibilities in a country, but minister of justice Rudy Croes makes a mess of it in recent revelations concerning the Natalee Holloway-case. That is the opinion of Andin Bikker of the opposition party Partido Democracia Real (PDR).

The party leader says that the minister must submit his resignation.

Reason for this are the accusation by Rudy Croes on Thursday nationally and internationally about the leader of the investiigation of the Holloway case, former police chief Jan van der Straten. He allegedly helped his`friend' and then judge in in training, Paul van der Sloot, in the first days of the investigation into missing American girl. This after his son Joran had been pointed to as a suspecte, said minister Croes.

The allegations concerning cronyism and corruption have totally surprised the PDR, Bikker wrote in a press bulletin. How is it possible that minister Rudy Croes comes forward with this after so many years. He publicly admits that he as a minister was perfectly aware of these facts concerning the largest police force investigation that we have known in the history of our country. These serious charges should have an impact on him as he is responsible as minister. This information has also reached the international press, this will cause damage to our country in a time that tourism goes through a difficult time. It now seems to me he better submit his resignation, if not he should be forced to resign the parliament.
According to Bikker the charges of Croes make it also possible that `the Kingdom' intervenes on the basis of Article 43 of the statute.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/printer_50203.php

the Dutch can intervene using Article 43 of the Statute by sending over the National Police Internal Investigations Department (http://www.om.nl/vast_menu_blok/english/the_national_police/) to investigate ALE.
Brinkman is already demanding this from the Dutch government.

Protecting Paulus and Joran as well as the tourism industry is where it has been at since May 30, 2005.  It has never been about justice for Natalee Holloway.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Janet

Natalee Holloway's Mom: Aruba Investigators 'Not Following Up on Any Leads'
Wednesday, November 19, 2008


HOLLOWAY: ... And you hear all this information coming them, saying that they're following up on every lead. Well, you know, that's just simply not true. They're not following up on any leads.

... Yes. And Greta, I was just wanting to say that, you know, like I said, it's been a long time, but it's never too late for justice. And I'd be good with a "Midnight Express" prison anywhere for Joran.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454527,00.html



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 07:11:40 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cage-18.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cagecompcopy.jpg)
Pic #1 is most telling! 1.7 meters = approx 5' +


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: bleachedblack on December 06, 2008, 07:12:28 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 07:14:51 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cage-18.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cagecompcopy.jpg)
Pic #1 is most telling! 1.7 meters = approx 5' +
hmmm, let me re-think that,  the cage isn't 40'+ ft across is it?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Tibrogargan on December 06, 2008, 07:17:26 PM
Do you like my Christmas avatar with the swinging balls? Thanks to CBB...


BB they are certainly a lot more impressive than Joran's decorations.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 07:20:36 PM
OE Reply #682 on: March 18, 2008, 10:28:45 AM »
   
I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366260#msg366260


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 07:20:43 PM
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cage-18.jpg)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/cagecompcopy.jpg)
Pic #1 is most telling! 1.7 meters = approx 5' +
hmmm, let me re-think that,  the cage isn't 40'+ ft across is it?
Do you want me to figure it out for you???   ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 07:23:55 PM
OE
This trap could not have "fallen" from a commercial fishing ship ( such as a shipped docked for repairs, etc.) because of the depth and location.
- Falling is highly unlikely given it's location and condition.

This trap was not lowered by crane, or whatever because it wasn't situated in a position that demonstrated "lowering", unless one end was really weighted down? I would think the ropes etc, to the crane would level it?
-Lowering by a windlass or winch would not explain the impact depression from one corner of the trap.  If it were leveled, one would assume it would fall level.  This is further supported because the 4-point rigging was still on the trap.


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.720


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: kkate on December 06, 2008, 07:24:25 PM
Do you like my Christmas avatar with the swinging balls? Thanks to CBB...


BB they are certainly a lot more impressive than Joran's decorations.

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: Makes me think of an AC DC song "Big Balls"  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 07:24:56 PM
OE Reply #682 on: March 18, 2008, 10:28:45 AM »
   
I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366260#msg366260

At 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft each section is about 2.3 x 2.3 x 2.5.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: RoxiBalboa on December 06, 2008, 07:26:13 PM
If the trap is 7.5x7.5 then the part you are looking at with the bags would be 2.5x2.5. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 07:27:35 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?

If this trap is a drug drop-off point, wouldn't the trap already have been in the ocean and someone dove down with her body and put her inside?  Wasn't it said somewhere that this trap was in the vicinity of an old shipwreck that people dive to?  Makes sense to me the trap was already there being used for drug drop offs and whoever got rid of the body took her there and dumped her. JMO


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: RoxiBalboa on December 06, 2008, 07:29:32 PM
Any thoughts about this? Paulus was working at the Justice Ministry when Natalee vanished
by Greta Van Susteren
FYI

Aruban police head allegedly shielded pal
ORANJESTAD, Aruba, Dec. 5 (UPI) – The Aruban justice minister charged Thursday that the police commissioner stalled an investigation into a U.S. teen’s disappearance. The minister, Rudy Croes, said the commissioner, Jan van der Straten, was concerned because the lead suspect was the son of a friend, Radio Netherlands reported.Natalee Holloway came to Aruba with other members of the senior class at a high school in the suburbs of Birmingham, Ala., on a class trip in 2005. She vanished after leaving a bar.

Joran van der Sloot has been arrested twice in the case and released both times. In December 2007, the prosecutor said there was not enough evidence to charge anyone and declared the case closed.

Aruba, a former colony of the Netherlands, is a separate country under the Dutch crown. Croes also accused Dutch officials of not giving adequate support to the investigation in Aruba.

Paulus van der Sloot, Joran’s father, was working for the Justice Ministry at the time of Holloway’s disappearance.


greatawire.foxnews.com


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 07:29:39 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?

If this trap is a drug drop-off point, wouldn't the trap already have been in the ocean and someone dove down with her body and put her inside?  Wasn't it said somewhere that this trap was in the vicinity of an old shipwreck that people dive to?  Makes sense to me the trap was already there being used for drug drop offs and whoever got rid of the body took her there and dumped her. JMO

I remember Kyle saying it had been there years but not tens of years...not lowered to bottom and didn't fall off a commercial boat....


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Buckeye on December 06, 2008, 07:31:21 PM
If the trap is 7.5x7.5 then the part you are looking at with the bags would be 2.5x2.5. 

I agree.....30 inches across...with each little square about 1.5 inches wide.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 07:31:26 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?



I thought we were told that it required a crane to lift it.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 07:35:00 PM
So if each section is 30" then is the diagonal of each section approx 42"?  I measured from my head down to my upper thigh and it was approx 36", I am 5' 0" tall.  So it's possible.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/image532fx05a.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 07:36:37 PM
So if each section is 30" then is the diagonal of each section approx 42"?  I measured from my head down to my upper thigh and it was approx 36", I am 5' 0" tall.  So it's possible.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/image532fx05a.jpg)




Klaas - you're really short!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 07:37:47 PM
So if each section is 30" then is the diagonal of each section approx 42"?  I measured from my head down to my upper thigh and it was approx 36", I am 5' 0" tall.  So it's possible.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/image532fx05a.jpg)




Klaas - you're really short!

Yep, but dynamite comes in small packages!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 07:40:20 PM
So if each section is 30" then is the diagonal of each section approx 42"?  I measured from my head down to my upper thigh and it was approx 36", I am 5' 0" tall.  So it's possible.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/image532fx05a.jpg)




Klaas - you're really short!
I didn;t know you were tiny too, Klaasend!!!!  I am 4'9 1/2


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Scandi on December 06, 2008, 07:41:12 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?

If this trap is a drug drop-off point, wouldn't the trap already have been in the ocean and someone dove down with her body and put her inside?  Wasn't it said somewhere that this trap was in the vicinity of an old shipwreck that people dive to?  Makes sense to me the trap was already there being used for drug drop offs and whoever got rid of the body took her there and dumped her. JMO


Hi Blue Moon of KY,  If it was a drug drop off point, the next time some drug dealer went to use it they would find the body, right?   Didn't Paulus make some statement like 'find the body and prove it'?

Also, looking at the trap with the 2 divers it seems to me the men are too small.  I know depth perception is tricky.  Just a few thoughts ;}


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 07:41:14 PM
I'm height impared.   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: San on December 06, 2008, 07:42:21 PM
I'm height impared.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: RoxiBalboa on December 06, 2008, 07:42:44 PM
Anyone know a diver? If this trap is still down there, wouldn't there be some dna in it (if Natalee was in there). Even with being in the ocean, science is amazing, and dna might be on the cage.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: truthseeker2 on December 06, 2008, 07:45:06 PM
I'm height impared.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

Vertically challenged?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 07:49:26 PM
Anyone know a diver? If this trap is still down there, wouldn't there be some dna in it (if Natalee was in there). Even with being in the ocean, science is amazing, and dna might be on the cage.




I would think so.  I don't know if they had special equipment when they processed the cage, but I would think that it would be a very real possiblity that stuff was left behind.  Caps said he and some friends were diving there recently.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blue Moon on December 06, 2008, 07:50:40 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?

If this trap is a drug drop-off point, wouldn't the trap already have been in the ocean and someone dove down with her body and put her inside?  Wasn't it said somewhere that this trap was in the vicinity of an old shipwreck that people dive to?  Makes sense to me the trap was already there being used for drug drop offs and whoever got rid of the body took her there and dumped her. JMO


Hi Blue Moon of KY,  If it was a drug drop off point, the next time some drug dealer went to use it they would find the body, right?   Didn't Paulus make some statement like 'find the body and prove it'?

Also, looking at the trap with the 2 divers it seems to me the men are too small.  I know depth perception is tricky.  Just a few thoughts ;}

I think PVS said "If there is no body, then there is no case".  What better place to  stash a body. What drug dealer is going to go to police and say "Hey, guess what I just found".  I think dealers would be Columbian drug dealers and no one would want to cross their paths.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: johan555 on December 06, 2008, 07:53:24 PM
Anyone know a diver? If this trap is still down there, wouldn't there be some dna in it (if Natalee was in there). Even with being in the ocean, science is amazing, and dna might be on the cage.

Caps is a diver and was there last week ,the cage is still there


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Scandi on December 06, 2008, 07:54:14 PM
Do you guys think this trap is the same size as those they use crab fishing in Alaska?  If so it could have been thrown out by a big crabber and somehow the line to it became disconnected and was just never pulled back in.  I have no idea, but watching the Discovery shows about fishing in Alaska it looks so much the same to me.  xox


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 07:54:22 PM
I just wish there was some way for us to know for certain who those remains belong to.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 07:57:45 PM
Do you guys think this trap is the same size as those they use crab fishing in Alaska?  If so it could have been thrown out by a big crabber and somehow the line to it became disconnected and was just never pulled back in.  I have no idea, but watching the Discovery shows about fishing in Alaska it looks so much the same to me.  xox

Yes the trap is very large and appears to be from a fishing troller IMO.  Still, it looks like there may have been human remains in the trap and the question is who's?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
Anyone know a diver? If this trap is still down there, wouldn't there be some dna in it (if Natalee was in there). Even with being in the ocean, science is amazing, and dna might be on the cage.

Caps is a diver and was there last week ,the cage is still there




Maybe we could send Caps back down with a few ziplock bags!   ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: ospainter on December 06, 2008, 08:00:36 PM
Do you like my Christmas avatar with the swinging balls? Thanks to CBB...


BB they are certainly a lot more impressive than Joran's decorations.

LOL


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: RoxiBalboa on December 06, 2008, 08:02:17 PM
Caps is a diver? ....is he a Mansur?

That trap is just sitting at the bottom of the ocean, hey FBI, go get it. Borrow it....no, TAKE it.
Its so frustrating feeling, yet again, like something is about to happen yet trying to stay calm becuz these things always lead to nothingness.

Hey Kermit, when will you be telling the additional info?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 08:03:46 PM
Caps is a diver? ....is he a Mansur?

That trap is just sitting at the bottom of the ocean, hey FBI, go get it. Borrow it....no, TAKE it.
Its so frustrating feeling, yet again, like something is about to happen yet trying to stay calm becuz these things always lead to nothingness.

Hey Kermit, when will you be telling the additional info?

No, Caps is not a Mansur.  Shoot, Valentine van der Sloot is Scuba certified.  It is an island and I imagine many are scuba certified  ::MonkeyWink::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 08:06:20 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?

If this trap is a drug drop-off point, wouldn't the trap already have been in the ocean and someone dove down with her body and put her inside?  Wasn't it said somewhere that this trap was in the vicinity of an old shipwreck that people dive to?  Makes sense to me the trap was already there being used for drug drop offs and whoever got rid of the body took her there and dumped her. JMO


Hi Blue Moon of KY,  If it was a drug drop off point, the next time some drug dealer went to use it they would find the body, right?   Didn't Paulus make some statement like 'find the body and prove it'?

Also, looking at the trap with the 2 divers it seems to me the men are too small.  I know depth perception is tricky.  Just a few thoughts ;}

I think PVS said "If there is no body, then there is no case".  What better place to  stash a body. What drug dealer is going to go to police and say "Hey, guess what I just found".  I think dealers would be Columbian drug dealers and no one would want to cross their paths.

Wasn't the cage found on the 'busy' tourist/hotel side of the island?  IIRC, Kyle mentions watching a boat at the scene when he was off one day.  Also, didn't Kyle reported someone in the sport business said the Aruban Coast Guard went by there every day?

Busy beach...moonlight swimmers at night, lots of traffic on this side of the island.  I'm not sure drug runners would use a cage.

Hmmm...stop boat.  Boat has to locate exact spot.  Send divers over side of boat, with/without package.  Swim down.  Put/take package in/from cage, make sure it's secure up/down.  Diver goes up without/with package.  Get's back on boat.  Boat speeds away.  How long would that take?  Just guessing - an hour?  Two?  Fifteen minutes?

Does boat avoid Aruban radar?  Does anyone on Aruba notice a pattern?

Only pattern I seem to see related to that spot is the Aruban Coast Guard reported by Kyle and his beach contact.  They went to about that spot, stopped for a time and sailed off, every day without fail.  Are the Aruban Coast Guard in some kind of drug dealing position here?   ::MonkeyShocked::

Who else saw the goings on in the water from the beach?  From the ocean?

Maybe some tourists found the cage over the span of three plus years?  I wonder if any divers have been contacted (by Monkeys or other) and asked about this item?  What did they report finding?



Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 08:12:45 PM
Caps is a diver? ....is he a Mansur?

That trap is just sitting at the bottom of the ocean, hey FBI, go get it. Borrow it....no, TAKE it.
Its so frustrating feeling, yet again, like something is about to happen yet trying to stay calm becuz these things always lead to nothingness.

Hey Kermit, when will you be telling the additional info?

No, Caps is not a Mansur.  Shoot, Valentine van der Sloot is Scuba certified.  It is an island and I imagine many are scuba certified  ::MonkeyWink::

I wonder if Julia dives.  She, from memory, was into water sports.  Maybe she could get an exclusive?  Maybe she'd even be on the cover of Diario?   ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Scandi on December 06, 2008, 08:13:46 PM
Kermit sent this yesterday.  Does it help?

Size might work, though I am skeptical. How could a trap that heavy be carried on a boat in such a manner? Is it really possible? Those traps are heavy, how much? 3 hundred pounds?

If this trap is a drug drop-off point, wouldn't the trap already have been in the ocean and someone dove down with her body and put her inside?  Wasn't it said somewhere that this trap was in the vicinity of an old shipwreck that people dive to?  Makes sense to me the trap was already there being used for drug drop offs and whoever got rid of the body took her there and dumped her. JMO


Hi Blue Moon of KY,  If it was a drug drop off point, the next time some drug dealer went to use it they would find the body, right?   Didn't Paulus make some statement like 'find the body and prove it'?

Also, looking at the trap with the 2 divers it seems to me the men are too small.  I know depth perception is tricky.  Just a few thoughts ;}

I think PVS said "If there is no body, then there is no case".  What better place to  stash a body. What drug dealer is going to go to police and say "Hey, guess what I just found".  I think dealers would be Columbian drug dealers and no one would want to cross their paths.


Yea, That's right Blue Moon.  It was Madeleine McCann's dad who said find the body and prove it.  B*st*rd!

I thought about that too, that seamy characters probably wouldn't report it if they found a body.  But thought it possible the word would leak out.


Thanks Klassand,  The trap having been there for a few years, if it was indeed used to put her, would then rule out the 'big' trap taken from the FH that night being involved.  Coinkydink, eh?


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 08:14:16 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 08:16:21 PM
Caps is a diver? ....is he a Mansur?

That trap is just sitting at the bottom of the ocean, hey FBI, go get it. Borrow it....no, TAKE it.
Its so frustrating feeling, yet again, like something is about to happen yet trying to stay calm becuz these things always lead to nothingness.

Hey Kermit, when will you be telling the additional info?

No, Caps is not a Mansur.  Shoot, Valentine van der Sloot is Scuba certified.  It is an island and I imagine many are scuba certified  ::MonkeyWink::

I wonder if Julia dives.  She, from memory, was into water sports.  Maybe she could get an exclusive?  Maybe she'd even be on the cover of Diario?   ::MonkeyCool::

I'm affraid she's so dried up and pruny that if she got into the water now she'd blow up like a balloon.  ::MonkeyCool::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: San on December 06, 2008, 08:18:43 PM
Caps is a diver? ....is he a Mansur?

That trap is just sitting at the bottom of the ocean, hey FBI, go get it. Borrow it....no, TAKE it.
Its so frustrating feeling, yet again, like something is about to happen yet trying to stay calm becuz these things always lead to nothingness.

Hey Kermit, when will you be telling the additional info?

No, Caps is not a Mansur.  Shoot, Valentine van der Sloot is Scuba certified.  It is an island and I imagine many are scuba certified  ::MonkeyWink::

I wonder if Julia dives.  She, from memory, was into water sports.  Maybe she could get an exclusive?  Maybe she'd even be on the cover of Diario?   ::MonkeyCool::

I'm affraid she's so dried up and pruny that if she got into the water now she'd blow up like a balloon.  ::MonkeyCool::

There would be no water left in the ocean.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 08:19:12 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.




I dove a few times, but stopped because I got claustophobic when the water's murky.  Divers wear wet suits when they go deep because the water is really cold down there.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 08:19:30 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.

Skin diving would be likely just a swimsuit and a snorkle if in shallow water.  Scuba of course would be probably a wetsuit/mask and air tanks etc.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: wreck on December 06, 2008, 08:20:00 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.
A life jacket would not allow you to dive very easily!! You would keep floating to the surface!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 08:21:01 PM
do you have more pics Blonde or Klaas ?
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.new#new


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 08:23:47 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.
A life jacket would not allow you to dive very easily!! You would keep floating to the surface!

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  That is the point I was getting to.   I am not a good swimmer, so diving isn't top on my list.  I did think wet suit, and that's why I asked.  All of the video/still shots we've seen seem to show anyone on the deck of the Persistence with a life jacket.  The ALE getting on their little boat had regular clothes with life jackets.  We've never seen any of them suited up for a dive....or do I have to go back and rewatch the video???


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: always 1 on December 06, 2008, 08:26:04 PM
Our football game is on Wreck.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Blonde on December 06, 2008, 08:26:43 PM
So if each section is 30" then is the diagonal of each section approx 42"?  I measured from my head down to my upper thigh and it was approx 36", I am 5' 0" tall.  So it's possible.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/image532fx05a.jpg)




Klaas - you're really short!

I'm 5'1/2" ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 08:28:10 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.

Skin diving would be likely just a swimsuit and a snorkle if in shallow water.  Scuba of course would be probably a wetsuit/mask and air tanks etc.

Snorkling/Skin Dive

(http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/jen%20snorkling%20buyat.jpg)

Scuba


(http://www.boracay-budgettravel-tips.com/images/scuba-diving_400x300.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: SS on December 06, 2008, 08:28:11 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.
A life jacket would not allow you to dive very easily!! You would keep floating to the surface!

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  That is the point I was getting to.   I am not a good swimmer, so diving isn't top on my list.  I did think wet suit, and that's why I asked.  All of the video/still shots we've seen seem to show anyone on the deck of the Persistence with a life jacket.  The ALE getting on their little boat had regular clothes with life jackets.  We've never seen any of them suited up for a dive....or do I have to go back and rewatch the video???




2NJ - I don't think we have any pictures of the Aruban divers suited up while they were on the surface.  I don't know how we could tell from the ROV pictures who the divers were because they all look alike with the wet suits, tanks, and masks.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 08:29:50 PM
Diving question.......it's common knowledge that life jackets should be worn while boating, but what is the normal gear for skin diving as opposed to scuba diving?   Klaas, I know you lived near the water all of your life, I have no idea.
A life jacket would not allow you to dive very easily!! You would keep floating to the surface!

 ::MonkeyLaugh::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 08:31:11 PM
Caps is a diver? ....is he a Mansur?

That trap is just sitting at the bottom of the ocean, hey FBI, go get it. Borrow it....no, TAKE it.
Its so frustrating feeling, yet again, like something is about to happen yet trying to stay calm becuz these things always lead to nothingness.

Hey Kermit, when will you be telling the additional info?

No, Caps is not a Mansur.  Shoot, Valentine van der Sloot is Scuba certified.  It is an island and I imagine many are scuba certified  ::MonkeyWink::

I wonder if Julia dives.  She, from memory, was into water sports.  Maybe she could get an exclusive?  Maybe she'd even be on the cover of Diario?   ::MonkeyCool::

I'm affraid she's so dried up and pruny that if she got into the water now she'd blow up like a balloon.  ::MonkeyCool::

There would be no water left in the ocean.

Who needs Persistence?  

That's better than Bounty - "the quicker picker upper".

Calgon take me away... ::cartwheel::




Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 08:31:24 PM
Who wants to do the thread change?  I will if nobody else wants too  ::MonkeyHaHa::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Scandi on December 06, 2008, 08:32:41 PM
Caps is a diver? ....is he a Mansur?

That trap is just sitting at the bottom of the ocean, hey FBI, go get it. Borrow it....no, TAKE it.
Its so frustrating feeling, yet again, like something is about to happen yet trying to stay calm becuz these things always lead to nothingness.

Hey Kermit, when will you be telling the additional info?

No, Caps is not a Mansur.  Shoot, Valentine van der Sloot is Scuba certified.  It is an island and I imagine many are scuba certified  ::MonkeyWink::

I wonder if Julia dives.  She, from memory, was into water sports.  Maybe she could get an exclusive?  Maybe she'd even be on the cover of Diario?   ::MonkeyCool::



 ::MonkeyLaugh::    ::MonkeyDance:: Too Funny.  We could suggest she wear a yellow stretchy scuba suit - maybe Jossy would provide it for her.  HeeHee  That'd be one good way to keep the tourists at bay   ::MonkeyRoll::


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 08:33:18 PM
Our football game is on Wreck.

(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/2NJSons_Mom/th46540657.gif)

Stay on topic, please.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: Magnolia on December 06, 2008, 08:34:28 PM
Although we see divers on the Persistence in full gear,
I do not think it is necessary in the warm waters of
Aruba.  It is entirely possible to dive with just tanks,
a mask and swim suit....with a weight belt.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 08:35:01 PM
Who wants to do the thread change?  I will if nobody else wants too  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I'm not ready....not prepared!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 08:36:05 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/Dateline%20Persistence/Dline16.jpg)


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 08:36:10 PM
Although we see divers on the Persistence in full gear,
I do not think it is necessary in the warm waters of
Aruba.  It is entirely possible to dive with just tanks,
a mask and swim suit....with a weight belt.


Guess that's what I'm missing....where is the full gear??  I only saw men with life jackets on. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: MuffyBee on December 06, 2008, 08:37:13 PM
Divers and snorkelers can both wear lycra suites or wetsuits not only for warmth,  (it gets cooler as you go deeper) but also to protect their skin from jellyfish and coral.  Wet suits can be a pain because of their increased buoyancy.      I have a diver certificate, but haven't been in a couple of years. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 08:38:03 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/Dateline%20Persistence/Dline16.jpg)

OK, thanks texasmom.....I see one wet suit & one Trahan without shirt....LOL


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: AZSunny on December 06, 2008, 08:38:39 PM
Although we see divers on the Persistence in full gear,
I do not think it is necessary in the warm waters of
Aruba.  It is entirely possible to dive with just tanks,
a mask and swim suit....with a weight belt.


You are right Magnolia.  When we were there we took a boat from the Holiday Inn pier to the semi submerged sub (close to the cage, i understand ) and the trip took about 20 to 25 minutes by a not very fast boat that was very flat and wide. While we were there divers were in the area of the ship, and they were just wearing swim suits and tanks and a weight belt.  I have no idea how deep they went, but they were visible at 30 feet deep.  If they went to 90 feet, i am assuming it was much colder. 


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 08:39:45 PM
Although we see divers on the Persistence in full gear,
I do not think it is necessary in the warm waters of
Aruba.  It is entirely possible to dive with just tanks,
a mask and swim suit....with a weight belt.


Also possible to make the dive without scuba gear but not likely.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 08:40:08 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/Dateline%20Persistence/Dline16.jpg)

OK, thanks texasmom.....I see one wet suit & one Trahan without shirt....LOL

YW 2nj, I have another one somewhere...the police boat; pretty sure one in that pic still has diving pants on in the pic; much like Trahan's attire in the pic above.


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: WhiskeyGirl on December 06, 2008, 08:40:47 PM
Hurry, someone post a big map or something!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: 2NJSons_Mom on December 06, 2008, 08:44:13 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/Dateline%20Persistence/Dline16.jpg)

OK, thanks texasmom.....I see one wet suit & one Trahan without shirt....LOL

YW 2nj, I have another one somewhere...the police boat; pretty sure one in that pic still has diving pants on in the pic; much like Trahan's attire in the pic above.

I know I have seen it before, just couldn't get past the orange/red vests...


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: texasmom on December 06, 2008, 08:45:31 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/CarpePicNatalee1.png)

                     Justice for Natalee!!!


Title: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
Post by: klaasend on December 06, 2008, 08:46:27 PM
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub5/moderator%20pics/MODLOCK1.gif)

Please move to NCD# 783

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4216.0