Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Welcome to Tevye's Study Hall.  ::MonkeyDance:: I'm doing a lot of reading about "cohabitation". Only problem is, the material is dated 1983, when the practice was relatively new. So, I though maybe I'd get some current info, and who better to ask than my monkey friends?

You don't have to post anything, but if you want to share your story, feel free. Any info left in posts will not be used for any other purpose, and I certainly won't share anything here anywhere else.

I won't have any way to know who voted how, so don't let that worry you.

(oh, and for the record, I'm option 1...rebel rebel!)

Now I have to figure out how to see the votes, cos you can only vote once. Oh, Klaas??? yoo hoo!

I can only speak on behalf of two of my cousins.  One lived with her high school sweetheart for about 8 years and then married I think sometime in the late 70s.  They have two grown daughters and are still happily together & grandparents.  The other cousin had a traditional engagement that broke off.  Following that she met and dated an older divorced man.  They eventually lived together for a couple of years and then married also in the late 70s/early 80s.  They have three children, two grown & one still in grammar school....and are still together.

It was frowned upon by some of the senior family members back then....but, my strict mother & I had a talk about it much later and had a laugh about how they knew what they were getting themselves into beforehand.     ::MonkeyHaHa::

Not sure this is reference material, but I thought I'd share it anyway.  Good luck with your research.

Thanks for sharing, 2NJSons_Mom! I see now that once you vote, you can see all the results. Can you?
I didn't tell my momma I was living with a guy until we told her we were getting married! How's that for dodging a bullet.

I will be married 19 years in July. We did not live together before marriage, I would say my mama would've killed me but prolly not cause my sister did live with hubby before she got married, they are now divorced! FWIW they were together longer cohabiting than they were married. Same goes for one of my good friends.

Tevye
Voted but since I have am another from the old school thought I would give you some on my three.
All three have lived together, two married one divorced one still married, third on not married, still living together. All from 40 to 30. Good luck with your class.
God Bless GE

Yes, Tevye, once you vote you can see the results.  I see them.

Congrats! Thanks for your input.

Thanks GE. I was supposed to be old school....

Thanks for letting me know...I wouldn't want to have more powers than I should!

THANK YOU KLAAS for your help!

Will be married for 13 years this May.  Lived together 1 year before we got married.

Good luck with your class!

You're welcome!  I see it worked! 

Now what you should do is put a link to this thread in your signature line.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4943.0

Lived together two years, married and it will be 34 years in August  ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyRoll::

Thanks, Klaas! I didn't think of that....

I don't see an option for me so here goes:
lived with first long term(lived with) relationship for 10 years,never married.
I'm now on 2nd long term(live with) relationship for 20 years and never married.
 ::MonkeyWink::

Karma, I think that makes you option 2?

Ummm,ahhs just confused.I thought option 2 meant:
"No,hecky NO!I did not marry that scumbucket after living with him(said while spitting)"
LOL....I'll go check off option 2 now that I told you my life story   ::MonkeyHaHa::

Do we have to tell???? My Mama might be watching!

Kidding. ::MonkeyTongue:: She already knows. She's in heaven and now knows a lot worse about me now!!  I'm gonna live a long time so I won't have to face the music. I will give you a hint. I am happily married now for almost 18 years. ::MonkeyCool::

lived together 1 year, married for 25.

Wow, thanks you all for your votes and your posts.

As for that whole "Mom will kill me" thing...I lived with DH for 1 year, married for forever. Both my kids cohabited before marriage...and they're doing fine. I had no problem with it, but, Catholic school girl that I am, I did NOT tell my mother her grandkids were doing what I did. bwaaack! (chicken)

We didn't live together before Marriage but did date exclusively for 4 years.  Today we are celebrating our 34th Wedding Anniversary.  We married on a Friday evening ceremony.

PJ :flower:

Ok - this will be preachy and I apoligize for offending anyone before I even begin. If you are thin skinned or easliy offened, just scroll on by.

I did live with my first husband before marraige. We were divorced after 15 years of marrage. What I discovered is that since he did not respect me enough to treat me like a lady before marraige, he did not change afterwards. So I do know somewhat of what I speak.

My personal belief is that "shack ups" are a very bad idea. I see a lot of people in our business, and I see way more shack ups either divorce or never marry - usually with children in the middle of it. An when you have a second male brought into the children's life the risk of abuse or death of the child escalates.

Studies have shown that people that live together outside of marriage do it because they do not respect the concept of marriage. And if you do not respect the idea of "till death do you part" why do you have any illusion of the person saying faithful.

I listen to Dr. Laura and have come to understand that I was an unpaid whore when I lived with my ex before a covenant was made. We could never over come that basic disrespect of each other and it lead to our divorce.

This time I made a point of having a separate home from my DH until we were married. He treats my like a queen and a respected woman.

The sad part is that our society has made sex just another leisure activity and not a special celebration of love between two people. Hence the CAs and Ron, Misty and that mess of the world. :Like I said JMO

Wow, are you reading my textbook? I just now found in this book, different from the other book with the outdated info, stuff that pretty much corresponds with what you're saying.

Off topic (hee hee, even in my own thread I can't stay on topic!) what happened to the Caylee thread? It is locked..something about this thread is bella...locked? I know I didn't do it, I was studying.

OH, and I didn't think it was preachy at all. I agree that sex has become too casual, "hooking up" used to mean the gang was all getting together at the drive-in, and just hanging out. Now I'm amazed to find that it means so much more, which makes the sex mean so much less. Glad I'm not a teenager or single anymore!

Voted Yes - I lived with my hubby before we were married.    As time goes on, we get closer to each other, and appreciate each other more.  I guess I'm lucky.   It worked for us.   

Sounds like a fun class!

I got a good one for you, though.   A lot of young couples now want to buy a house together before they are married.  My daughter is one of them.  I told her that was a stupid move.  She sees nothing wrong with getting into a home ownership deal with her live-in boyfriend.   I say BAD DEAL.   I think in the end, she'll listen to me.

Why in the heck would one want to tie oneself to someone financially if one doesn't want to tie oneself to them "for real"  aka "Marriage"? Oiy, that'll be hard to undo. I hope she does listen to you...or someone shows the young man a shotgun!

I put 'yes and married the SOB significant other'.   Dumb a$$ that i was at the time.  Altho I did finally see the light and divorced after 7 years.  That was like, a hundred years or so ago.  heeee

My thinking at the time we lived together was that I'd never really 'get to know' him until I lived with him, right?  Ermmm wrong!!  Didn't really get to know who he really was until we made it 'forever, til death do us part'.   Didn't realize that death could mean my trust in all men forever. 

Lots of things one can learn, after that ring wedding goes on the finger.  Several of my female friends and I, at the time, realized that 'playing house' was just that, playing.  It wasn't 'real' until we were married.  And the game stopped.  It was like the guys had chased, finally conquered, were tired of it all, and just became... themselves.  For us it was like.. eeeeeeeeeek!  Who have I married? 

I still don't know if it would have been any different had I not lived with the dude first.  Am thinking it likely would have been the same, just may not have taken as long for the game-playing to stop.  Living with the dude only seems to have prolonged the chase, in other words. 

Now I watch my three young adult sons each going thru their own chase.  I often sympathize with their "fiance's".  Yet I do watch sons closely, trying to make sure they are who they are, while living with their love.  One "fiance" down and out, before they got married, because the reverse thing happened.  She became "real" and mid-son got the heck outta dodge just in the nick of time.  On the other hand, oldest-son ought not to ever get married, IMO.  Too much like his sperm donor.  Sigh.  I keep trying to get his fiance to take her blinders off and really SEE him for who he is.  And that's a weird situation to be in, as his mom.  Ya know? 

So who can really say??  I dunno whether living together first is a good thing or not.. Guess it just depends on the two people involved, and if they can be "real" without the game-playing.  Seems if they can trust each other, may as well go for it.  They likely have a 50/50 chance either way.  Am I jaded?  Yeah.. guess so. 
 

She listens pretty well.   I don't think she'll do it.   She keeps talking about it, though.

I guess I should also tell you that the marriage I'm in now is not my first.  My first marriage was a whirlwind engagement - he was military and leaving soon - so we got married within 6 months of our first date.   What a mistake that was!  While we were dating, he was fun and charming.   He liked to go out dancing and showered me with gifts and talked sweet to me.   After the ring was on my finger, he changed overnight.   No more drinking in the house.   No more dancing.   No more going out to dinner.   No more fun.  Period.   He was the most boring person I ever met in my life - and the laziest.   He never did crap around the house.  I had to do it all.  He was a penny-pincher.   I had to beg for the checkbook to go grocery shopping.  I kid you not.   He ended up being mentally abusive.  He totally ignored me for years.  He demanded that I be perfect.  I always had to be dressed up and hair done.  I wasn't allowed to even go to the store without looking like a china doll.  I tried to get a job outside the home - and he pitched a fit because he wanted me home at all times with the kids.  Why did I stay?   I wanted it to work and we had 3 kids.   When the youngest was old enough not to be put into daycare, I got a job.  I bought a townhouse without him knowing, and then told him about it two weeks later.   HAHA!    I moved out and took the kids and never looked back.    The court awarded me 100% custody.    Met the man I'm married to now, and lived happily ever after!

My advice is TRY to get to know who you're about to marry.   Then can still fool you.... but try.   Even if that includes playing house for awhile.   

I have been in several relationships. I was married straight after high school. (Married BEFORE graduation) and that lasted for 10 years and 2 kids. He was older than me by several years and "bossed me around" and basically "terrorized" me until I sought counseling. He was in the military and became abusive- never physical (but that was coming) before I moved out. He was not interested in being a dad at all, so me and the kids had no issues with that.
My next relationship was with a very loving, and wonderful man. We lived together for 6 months and were married for 10 yrs before he was killed in a military helicopter crash. He was a good and kind husband and father to my children. The song  about the man who was the "dad he didn't have to be" describes him beautifully. My children got his last name and use it with pride. He passed 20 yrs ago March 12th and we still have his picture in the house. My kids say HE is their dad and do not even acknowledge the biological one.
Six years after his death, I met and married another man.  We lived together for 2 months and then married. We were married for 13 years. We divorced because he decided he did not need to work and help pay the bills. He did not work for 18 months at the end of the marriage. We argued all the time. My son and his family had hard times and moved in with us. He agreed BEFORE they moved in and then refused to BE part of the family. He wanted all of my attention all the time. I work nights and there were grandkids in the house that I love and wanted to be with. The husband I thought I knew was gone and this resentful, hateful man remained. I finally had had enough when he threw a book in my face and blackened my eye. I divorced him and I am sooooo glad. He is now in jail for having sex with a minor for money. A 14 year old!! and my oldest granddaughter is almost 10----YUK!!! How LUCKY We are that he is NO LONGER in our lives!!!!

Good Morning Tevye,

You said yesterday that your study was for us older geneatration. I have found it very intersting to read about everyones life experiences.  I have been married 43 years to the same man. Married right out of HS with one official date so to speak. And have never looked back. I knew him for 2 years before we were married. I have 4 sibs and 2 of them lived with spouses before marriage, 2 didn't. The two that did live together are now divorced and out of the two that didn't one is divorced and one still married after 48 years. I hope this helps to give you a broader base for your survey.

This sounds like an interesting class!

I was married twice - 1st marriage did not live together - married for 12 yrs - 2nd marriage we lived together for 1 year and have been married for 11 years and will be forever we have a very healthy and happy marriage - difference between the 1st and 2nd marriage is in my 2nd we have FUN together.

Wow
As I sit here(being my over sensitive self)and trying not to be offended by posters implying that my life is just"playing house"......I'll try to explain something to you all(not that I owe anyone a explanation)
I have never wanted to get married,nope,I don't believe a person(me)has to have a piece of legal paper to make a life with someone.

My first long term relationship ended(2 kids)but it would have ended with or without that legal paper.

My 2nd long term relationship(the one and last relationship I'll have with a man)has lasted for 20 years.This man has helped me raise my 2 kids,has made it possible for me to be financially settled.We both own our home,cars,etc.

He is the most gentle man I have ever known,the most loving and caring and I so appreciate him every day of my life and......I don't need a legal paper to tell me that our love is not real,that we are "just playing house".........WE live our lives both happy and content in the fact that we are not"playing"....we are just living the best that we can.

Thank you for the poll Tev   ::MonkeyWink::

Wow you guys! I can't thank you enough for all your posts! ::MonkeyDance::

I was telling DH about my poll. He asked me if any males responded. I told him I wasn't sure, I'm not really sure who is what, and that's good. I don't know the ages of the respondants, or the sexes, unless you tell me. I told him I think Sacred Monkeys is mostly female.

But what's really cool is that you all responded! And the stories you tell...for some of you, I thank you for sharing what might be painful memories. And for others, thanks for the inspriration. We've only been married for 32 years, and we beat some pretty big odds. Can anyone say "shotgun wedding"?  ::MonkeyLaugh::

If I were to follow up on this survey, I'd ask the ones who have been married to the same guy for (what seems like forever)our whole life this question: Did you always stay married because you wanted to, or because you reminded yourself of your vows, and said "Dammit, I SAID I was in it till death, so I will stay"?
To be honest, I've had both kinds of days ::MonkeyLaugh::

Oh, Karma honey, come and sit by me. Everyone has their own opinion, and I hope you don't feel judged. I think that maintaining a stable, long-term relationship, whether sanctioned by a piece of paper or not, is an awesome and difficult thing to do. I, having lived with DH before marriage, have no problem with people doing that. I think the important thing is that you have a committment to each other...and 20 years says a lot! Heck, MY parents weren't even married that long.

So please, don't feel judged. There is no "right or wrong" about this. Thanks for telling your story.
(oh, and if I went into my brothers and sisters marriage/living together stats, I think Klaas would start sending me a bill for bandwidth!)

Hmm, married my high school sweetheart young, had one child, divorced after 11 years.  Have known my present Room Mate for 23 years, lived with him for 13 years - would never do either one again. 

Oh Karma please don't get upset. How do I say this without sounding dumb. We all take our life experiences from our growing up years and that make us who we are today. All our adult discussions come from that. So what others might feel about things are just that their life experiences. But you are happy with your choices then that's all that matters. My mother always told me don't worry about what others think as long as you aren't hurting anyone by your choices then go for it. Please remember that is what makes the world go around. If we all thought the same way and acted the same way then this would be a very boring world. I guess what I am trying to say is you and your family and friends have no problem with your choices then who really cares what others think. I can't speak for anyone else but for me, so this is just my opinion. Have a good day. God Bless

Thanks Tev,committment....that's surely what it's all about.
For the poll record,I am a 52 yo female and my guy is a 45 yo male.....in case you ever want to do a poll on robbing the cradle lol   ::MonkeyHaHa::

GreenEyes wrote:
Awww,thank you GreenEyes but I'm not upset.I have just read what I have been hearing from people(not from anyone that knows me)for years.Back when I was 18 yo and had my ist child,I responded to a letter from Dear Abby in our local paper.She printed my response to the article titled"would you live with your love without marriage?"

I was and still am proud of my printed words :)

What I bolded above is so true.My parents(8 kids)did not even speak to eachother the last 20 years they were married,they did not speak,talk about a long drawn out silent treatment.  ::MonkeyEek::
I saw no good marriages around me and saw very few live in relationships around me either so maybe I am a little surprised(only sometimes) that this relationship has lasted at all.

Anyway,thanks again GE and thank you again Tev.This was an interesting poll and I would love to see more of them as you study

LOL! You go, girl!  (http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/TheWoodenBlock/highfive.png)

LOL...also for the record....I still feel like I'm in my 30's.
 ::MonkeyDance::

Hey, I actually agree, just becaused I married young and am still married. It is just a piece of paper, and that piece of paper has nothing to do with you being happy or not happy. Actually if you are very unhappy with the marriage for whatever reason, look at all the bs one usually has to go through with a divorce. So if you are happy with your arrangement, I think it's great. And if someone is happy being married, that's great too.

Tevye,
I got married right out of hs.  Did not live with him before we got married.  My mom and his would have had a coniption fit.  I was only 18 and he was 22.
 
My husband and I sent ourselves to college. I am a teacher and he is in the truck business (not doing too well at the moment ) due to the economy.  "shrugs"

September, 2009, will make 42 years.  It hasn't been a bed of roses the whole time, but we are proud of what we have worked for and what we have now.

Danabar :)

Tevye, just wanted to say that I enjoy your posts.

Thanks, Danabar! I agree, life together isn't always a bed of roses, but every now and then, a rose blooms, and that makes it all worthwhile.

Exactly NoRose
I'm very open minded and what ever floats your boat,go for it(as long as no one is being hurt)
I know that if we ever split up I'll still get half of everything as half of everything already has my name on it    ::MonkeyWink::

I voted but only once even though I have two votes that would count.

First marriage I was 20 he was 22 we lived together for one year before we tied the knot.  I was with him 10 years, he was very insecure and controlling which I did not see at the time.  As I grew up and I mean that as looking back we were too young to get married, I wanted to further my education and career and he would put me down about it.  We had two kids together and daily he would tell me if I loved my kids I would stay at home and not think about myself.  I left him after catching him "in the act" with a neighbour in my house.  Walked away from it all with the kids.

I did go back to University as a single mother worked nights, went to class during the day full time, no support from him whatsoever or settlement from the divorce (when I say I walked away from it all I really did).

After I got my degree I started dating a man I met at school.  We dated for 2 years , lived together for two years.  He wanted to get married I did not.  Another 2 years we did get married even though I was still gun shy.  We have been together for 17 years now, 2 more kids and every day gets better and better.  He is the most caring, supportive and giving person I have ever know and has really shown me what life and living is all about.  I cherish every day with him as he is fighting Cancer right now.

Karma - I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else when I said "get to know the person - even if you have to play house for awhile".  What I meant by that is that I personally don't have a problem with people living together, at all.  I meant it in a silly way - because whether you or married or not, living together takes a huge commitment.  It is not "playing" but a serious commitment.   I know for a fact that if something should happen to my hubby, I would never remarry - but I would consider living with a person that I cared about/loved. 

Like I said earlier, I married my second husband after living with him for awhile.   The main reason we got married was because without that piece of paper, I wouldn't be entitled to his military benefits.    Otherwise, I would have been content to live with him - without the piece of paper.    Our love is strong enough that we didn't need "the piece of paper".
Again, I'm sorry if my words were confusing or hurt anyone.    Hugs.
 

{{{{{Northern}}}}}
You and your soulmate are in my prayers.

Karma (and anyone else I upset!)- I want you to know that I was in no way addressing my comments to anyone nor did I mean to offend anyone. I understand that sometimes co-habitation works out - and sometimes it does not. My husband points out that statistics are just that - the average results for a given set of facts. People are different and will behave differently. I spoke only from generalities. Being a Libertarian from way back - I have no right to tell others how to live - as long as it does not directly affect me. I am just a bit sensitive myself as I watch generation after generation of kids think that life and kids are trivial. But I certainly did not mean to offend!

Sassy wrote:
Awww,thank you Sassy
I wasn't really offended and I'm sorry for coming off all on the defensive.

It's all OK BoyzMom
I wasn't offended really.I just get on the defensive at times and shoot my mouth off.We are all intitled to our opinions and yeah,those opinions will differ.
But's it's all OK and I am sorry for coming off that way.I really enjoyed Tev's poll thread.

Karma that means alot as I know first hand the amazing power of prayer.

Northern Rose, 
You and your husband and family are in my prayers. Prayers are very powerful. May you have many more wonderful years together. God Bless GE

Same here, Northern.   You and your husband will be in my prayers.   My hubby was treated and cured of prostate cancer last year.  He goes back every six months - but so far, no sign of the cancer.   Hugs.

I just didn't want to offend anyone, either!    ::MonkeyHaHa::     This thread has been interesting - and a neat way to get to know each other better!  I like reading all the different viewpoints, also.

  ::MonkeyWaa:: Tevye, you need a check box for poor sad saps like JSM that choose their dog over a man. Just Sayin, I did that and look where I am, sitting here talking to monkeys on the internet.

Maybe you could use me and Josef in your paper on relationships titled Crazy lady that loves dogs and monkeys more than a man ::MonkeyWink::  ::MonkeyWaa::

I was just in here trying to give Tevye h*ll cause I wanted to vote twice. I'm sorry Northern Rose about your husband. I will keep ya'll in my prayers. JSM

Ahh JSM! But you lived with or married a man, right? so, you should click a box. And you aren't a crazy lady who loves her dog more than men, just THAT man. Says way more about the man than it does about you. (but, yeah, you're crazy, but in a good way ::MonkeyLaugh:: ) We love ya!

I think maybe I need a "Tevye's Study Hall" thread...stickied and all. It's nice to be able to chat and not keep going OT....I always feel so bad when a mod has to remind me to get back on track. Like I let them down (and I swear Klaas has a tri-cornered metal ruler that I NEVER want to see! ::MonkeyLaugh:: )

Prayers for you and your guy. I hope you have a good, caring cancer treatment center to go to. My sis is an oncologist nurse, and somedays I can't believe all the support she gives her patients. Not just with the actual treatment, but with "life with cancer" issues.

Yeah Tevye, I have a bunch of boxes to check here. Was married 5 years, never lived with him. I gave him my checks when I wanted my own bank account he made me pay half the bills. He made 3 times as much as me, but I paid 1/2 the bills just to get a checking account. That lasted about 2 months. I left, moved home for a week or two, got my own apartment and became so depressed because I didn't have a "significant other", then I found the "love of my life" he was a great guy. I kept my apartment, but drove 90 miles a day so I could be with him or he would come into town and stay with me. Got rid of the apartment, moved in with him everything was great until his mom passed away. Then he started making loads of money and kicked me to the curb. Oh well I got my Josef because of him, he helped with some of Josef's bills when he was attacked by the coyotes. Sorry for being off topic, I just wanted to tell you make one more check mark for cat/dog ladies.  ::MonkeyWink::

Hunny, you can't be off-topic on this thread! It's in the lounge, so we can talk about anything we want.I kinda like it here, I'm thinking of putting a couch in that corner, and a lamp next to it. Oh, and smoking IS allowed! ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyDance::

Thank you so much and yes prayers are very powerful.  I am counting on having him around for a long time. 

That is so wonderful to hear!  I am so happy for you and your husband.  Thank you!

Thank you JSM.   It means a lot.

Thank you Tevye.  One of the reasons we moved from way way up north to just way up north was to be close to a cancer centre and all the medical care.  I have to share with you that we watch Dr. Who to laugh when things get tough or to just check out of reality a while.  Every time I see your references to anything Dr.  I have a huge smile on my face.  Sorry for hi-jacking your thread. 

Just for you and your hubs, Rose. I'm assuming you live in the last frontier?(http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/mortethecat/DrWhoBackgroundcopy.jpg)
And we can talk about anything we want, we're like in the lounge or something. So, as the good Doctor would say "Allons-y!"...which I think is French for "let's go!"

Ok, I have a question. All of your comments are great! So great that I'd like to use them in my paper.

Yes, I know at the beginning, I said nothing would go further than here. but some of you expressed things I had never even thought of. And I don't take credit for work that's not mine...I'm a stickler about that.

So, here's my idea: I would like to quote certain posts, but without any attribution. That means I might use a line out of one of someone's post, always enclosing it in quotation marks. I would NOT use any names, nor would I disclose where this survey was taken. In short, the prof will have no way of knowing where this info came from. That way, your monkey personal business is still yours.

I would only quote specific posts (edited ONLY by deletions...I will not change what you say, or use it out of context) if the poster approves of it. So, say JSM thinks this is ok. I need her to post "Sure, go ahead" to me. In other words, if you don't want me to use your stuff, I will not.

If no one approves of me quoting them, then I won't. I Monkey Promise, heck, I Double Dog Monkey Promise! I don't want you all to think I shanghai'd your most excellent sharing.

But let me re-iterate: I WILL NOT USE ANY OF YOUR QUOTES UNLESS YOU SPECIFICALLY TELL ME IT'S OK.

When I started this, I figured I'd get about 10 votes, and no comments. I'm thrilled with the response, and all the differing views. I never planned to use some of your comments, but this morning, I was reading through them again, and thought "Wow! I could never have said it like that! People should see that, they should know this perspective on this subject."

Remember, I promise not to use your stuff unless you tell me it's ok. And I promise to use it exclusively for this paper, with no attribution. (Can you tell I have a law background? ::MonkeyLaugh:: )

Lived with a man for about a year. I left him. Decided never to do that again as it is too hard on my daughter.

Was with my hubby for 8 long years before we married. Never lived together. If we had, we might not have gotten married ...

 ::MonkeyTongue::

And, as an added assurance, I will post my paper here, before submitting it to the prof. That way, ya'll can have a crack at it before he does! (This will also help me to get it done on time...no waiting till 5 pm when the paper's due at 6 pm.)

Remember, tho, if you're not comfortable with me sharing your sharings, I WON'T.

You can use mine if you'd like dear.  ::MonkeyTongue::

You can use mine also.  And Northern Rose, my thoughts and prayers for both of you.

GNM, does that mean you dated your hubby for 8 years before marrying him? I've wondered how the living together affects the kids.[deleted snarky comment about my dad...]

You have my ok Tevye!

You have my blessings.

Tev - sure, I don't care.     Hope you get an A+ on your paper!    ::MonkeyWink::

You can use mine as well.  Thank you so much No Rose, it means a lot.

Hi Tevy! 
Sorry I meant to write you a little bit when I voted Saturday night, but was a bit tied up with a nut.  LOL

Anyway, I voted for the less popular choice, and that was to live with the person prior to marriage.  I want to preface what I have to say though with this, when it comes to this sort of situation there is NO cookie cutter answer or standard.  This question is one that has to be made by the individual, and can not and should not be persuaded either way by a general population or popularity.  Each person and relationship is different, and to say that a marriage did not work out because the two had lived together prior is not a fair assumption.  To assume that you would have to also assume that every person is exactly the same with the same mentalities, same maturity level, and same personalities...

My husband and I did live together for a short time prior to our getting married, we have been together since I was 16 y/o, I am now 24, and we will be celebrating our 3rd year wedding anniversary this year.  While I know that it is still too early to take measure of my marriage, I would like to say that it is based on a solid ground.

We chose to live together prior, for the few months that we did, for economical reasons.  At the time I had just graduated from UF and was not going to sign a lease just to move again within 3 months into my husbands place, which we were going to move out of and into the home we are in now within 6 months anyway.....so we moved in together.  My parents were not the happiest about the situation, they are very old school and by the "book", but they saw no other solution given the situations and gave in.

For each person and each relationship it is going to be different.  I do not think this sort of senario is right for everyone, especially since it is very easy to get comfortable and not make that final leap into marriage, but is it to be assumed that if those that do not carry through with the marriage would have had they been living apart?

As I stated prior, it is hard to fit so many different types of people into one mold, not every one is going to fit, and not everyone is going to like the constraint of the mold...

Good luck with this paper, I can not wait to read what you have put together as I am sure it will be very interesting. 

Hi Tevye...this is really an interesting and educational thing you've got goin' on  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Here's my story...dated guy #1 for 7 years then married him.  I wised up to the fact that being married meant very different things to each of us, so I moved out and filed for divorce after 3 years.  My fear was that I would wake up at the age of 40 and be a very angry woman.  So at the age of 33, I was living on my own for the first time in my life.
Had I lived with him beforehand,  I don't think I would have married him (and my parents would have been horribly disappointed in me). 

Three years later, I began dating a man that I was madly in love with.  The "madly in love" lasted about 12 years, but I didn't live with him or really want to marry him.  I had already realized that having children wasn't in the cards.  Then things began to change for me.  I began to see every stinkin' flaw he had and couldn't wait to get the h*ll away from him.  The break-up was actually tougher than my divorce, but seemed even more necessary for my self-survival (plus menopause was kickin' my booty on a daily basis).

So, here I am...Age 49...livin' alone (with 2 kitties) and loving every single second of my life.  I am blessed to have a great career and FREEDOM.   For me, it wouldn't matter whether I was "married to" or "living with"...my level of commitment and fidelity would be the same.  But by the same token, the need to have my own space and my own identity is so strong, that the next man in my life will have to be magnificent! 

You have my permission to use any part of this little saga that fits your work.   ::MonkeyTongue::

 ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::

You guys rock! I'm currently working on some legal stuff, so little time to thank you all for your comments!!!!

I'll be around later ::MonkeyCool::

Sure Tev,you have my OK to share my sharings....plus I'm thinking my living situation is kinda unique    ::MonkeyWink::

Hiya Tevye
  Here's my saga, which can be used as a cautionary tale! I went to 12 yrs Catholic schools and had just assumed that my life would be exactly like my mothers and all of my friends mothers. The nuns certainly at that time (70's) in my high school never gave me the impression that I'd ever need to take care of myself. The image was very simple, you'll marry a nice young man from the all boys school or else you'll be a loser. I did have a boyfriend that I loved a lot but always felt like I was missing adventure, the times they were a changin'.  Although, in my heart, I knew the "safe" route, the very second I graduated some girlfriends and I went on the most fun journey. A roadtrip to end all roadtrips.

In that summer, far away from home I met the guy that ended up being my 2 childrens father. We lived together for 5 yrs, but in that time, my conservative upbringing was punishing me with nagging thoughts that my kids were illegitimate, I was sinning etc. Long story short when my daughter was 2 we married. 2 yrs later, divorced. So..7 yrs together, but really it was my insecurity and a whole lot of his drug abuse that ended it.

I grew up really fast after that, being 25, no job skills, 2 little guys to feed ,made me get a grip. Since then, there's been some long term relationships but i never felt like I found my soulmate. Maybe I would not have recognized my perfect match if he had come along but once the kids were there, their security and stability were more important than my love life.  Now, they're grown and both live with significant others, never married, my daughter has 2 children and doesn't want to marry. They both seem to feel very comfortable without the "paper".  I dunno what all that means but at this stage in my life I wish I had looked a little harder!     

Thanks for telling that. It is very interesting how our original family (Mummy & Daddy) can influence our lives, isn't it? I mean, even if you go ahead and marry/move in with someone, Mom and Dad, if they don't care for your mate, can still make your life hell.

Guilt trips, contrary to public knowledge, were invented by Catholic moms. I think they all organized as soon as there was a Catholic church in the US, so that would make it St. Augustine's in Florida. Guilt trips are always written as a one-way ticket back to Mom and Dad and THEIR values. Thankfully, many years ago, I told my mom my passport had been denied, so no more guilt trips for me. ::MonkeyLaugh:: She still tries, God bless her!

Maybe you will meet your soulmate yet. I just heard today of a friend of ours, gettting married. He's over 50, and has been married before. She's 48 and never been married. Youth isn't "all that" when it comes to love.

Oh, forgot to say: GOOD FOR YOU! You broadened your horizons, prolly took a few risky chances, and made your own decisions. Nothing like a good road trip with the girls (but avoid the Grand Canyon and convertibles and cops!) to let your hair down!

Tevy it is very interesting that you bring up about the parents influencing our lives, it is so very very true.

My 22 y/o brother is marrying her girlfriend, they are expecting their first child, so the wedding is set for October of this year.  Well in the mist of it all, for some reason MY wedding came into question.  Now, we are Catholic, my family and my husbands, but our wedding took place in my mothers butterfly garden, why, because that is what I wanted. 

So anyway yes my wedding location choice came up in all of this discussion, as what NOT to do!!  I was a bit infuriated you can imagine, but even more so when my MIL chimed in to say that technically since we were not married within the walls of the Catholic church it was not blessed by God or accepted in Gods eyes.

Long story short, to make everyone else happy, my husband and I are having a ceremony in the Catholic church on our regular wedding day anniversary in September. 

Oh the things we do to appease the parents.  I went to Catholic boarding school for 10 years of my life, I am well aware of what is ok and what is not accepted, but it was my choice to break out of the norm how I saw fit, as you can see I have been vitto'd and my unborn children do not need to be considered "illegitimate".

At this point, I am at the humor stage of the "grieving" process.....gives me an excuse to get a new dress!!

But did a priest do your first wedding? That's what makes it legitimate, not the setting. Heck, I was married in a State Hospital chapel (ya know, the whack-a-doodle hotel)...not that we were patients there, but that's where our priest was. So, that makes my marriage nutty! Tell your MIL that, butterfly garden (sounds beautiful!) or a nuthouse?

But, if you get a new dress out of it, and the kids will be there, we are all expecting awesome pics! Be sure and get one of your MIL ::MonkeyLaugh::

Yes we had a priest, he was not the head priest, but a priest!  The church was not completed at that point, it was actually not finished until this past Christmas!  LOL  I adore my MIL, but this was a bit over the top....and even worse my Ma agreed!! 

Atleast I have my wedding to remember the way I wanted it...they can have theirs I guess too!  LOL

Cool with me to use whatever I posted  . . . I trust you will use the power only for good!  ::MonkeyWink::

LOL - I could see my parents giving me that pressure. The Catholic church is very strange anymore. While I strongly disagree with single parenthood by choice, I did feel the church was a bit off the map when they all but excommunicated my sis for having twins out of wedlock but let the child molesters in . . . .

And do not even get me started on parents .. .

I was 18, met a guy, shacked up for a year, then got married. Divorced at 21. Didn't know the difference between love and lust   ::MonkeyConfused::

Now 42, never remarried. Never shacked up again. A great dane sleeps on the "other" side of the bed now  ::MonkeyHaHa::   

lmao, which one?  I lived with both, one was a SOB
the other is on close tenterhooks with me.  The survey needs to be a bit more flexible  ::MonkeyHaHa::
And, Id live with the man, and never marry him, if I get a third chance  ::MonkeyHaHa::

actually, retract that, id have a man, but live alone.  have him over for a night, then send him on his way.  im really pissed with my hubby atm, can you tell?  ::MonkeyHaHa::  All the week I was sick in bed with this lung infection, (i crawled out to work tho) came back home straight to bed.  he never did one thing around the house, never made me soup, all he did was sit on his arse playing solitaire on the computer.  When i get up after 5 or so days, the house was trashed, no dishes done, no laundry, crap everywhere.  Now, today he feels unwell, so I am starting the clean up, but guessing tomorrow he will still be sick, so wont be able to drive me to hospital.  He times things well.  Funny, I found 4 empty slabs of beer and cans he tried to hide from me when i was sick.  This is the nice hubby Im talking about too. ::MonkeyNoNo::

Yes, it's ok to use any comment I made if you need to.  It was truly considerate of you to ask all of us before doing it. And I am looking forward to seeing the finished paper! Good luvk with it!! Hoping you get an A+!!!

LOL! Now THAT'S what I call a plan! I love my DH dearly, but when he gets sick....and for some reason the pediatrics ward at our hospital won't let me park him there for a few days! ::MonkeyLaugh::

Thanks for the comments! Hope you're feeling better. hugs

I asked for a one month ban.  I cant post in here in my current state of mind.  I will still read in here, but I want my posting privalages taken away, till I get my shit together. 

I've forwarded your post to Klaas.  She is the only one that can make changes like you are asking.  I hope you feel better soon, Lucinda.  Muffy

So, you won't post, doesn't mean you can't read our well wishes. Know what I do (weather permitting) when I'm really really mad? I paint outside stuff, fences and porches and such. I just SLAP that paint on, then rub it in REAL good....sometimes the lawn gets a little white (yes, we do have white picket fences, a real pain in the arse to paint!) and DH gets a frown, but it makes me feel better.

So, read on, McDuff! We're sending prayers and good thoughts your way!

 ::MonkeyLaugh:: ::MonkeyLaugh::

Teyve,
I didn't write much but if there was something you may use it. I like so many of the others would love to see your finished paper on this subject. God Bless

Thanks for your permission. I am working on the paper right now, and hope to have at least a draft up for ya'll by noon.

(tevye wanders away, muttering what she always mutters on the day a paper is due: "Stupid paper. Worst one yet. Stupid idea to go back to college, I'm too freekin' old for this carp!")

OK, kids, here it is. I'll be taking comments and criticisms till about 3 p.m. (EST). Thanks again for all your comments!
(Hey, do I get an award for longest post EVER??? ::MonkeyLaugh:: )







Cohabitation Vs. Legal Marriage





Is cohabitation as valid as marriage? Is it wrong? Did the cohabitation trend, born in the 1960’s, really become institutionalized? Is it the logical step between dating and marriage? Most importantly, has it become socially acceptable to live with your mate, before s/he becomes your mate?

   I contend that yes, cohabitation has become institutionalized. It has become socially acceptable to live with one’s potential spouse before marriage. I am not saying that people should live together instead of marrying; I am saying it is ok for people to live together before marriage.

   I believe that short-term cohabitation (two years or less) before marriage can serve the couple well, in most cases. This can be seen as a trial run for the marriage. Living together allows potential spouses to see each other in their natural habitat, so to speak.

   Short-term cohabitation can serve as that last “filter” in the mate selection process. After passing through the filters of similar interests, religion, and values, the potentials can try on their roles as a married couple.  They can find out if socks, lying on the living room floor, will make one crazy. On the other hand, they might learn that one of them is a night owl, while the other prefers to be in bed by 10 p.m.

   Wait. How could Shelley, who has been dating Peter for a year, not know that Peter prefers to be in bed by 10 p.m.? Because, during the dating and mate selection process, Peter decided that in order to find the right mate, he would have to stay out later than he usually did. He did not want to appear to be an old fuddy-duddy. He wanted to be exciting and seem to be a spontaneous guy. He was wearing a mask.

   Shelley also was wearing a mask. While they were dating, she always took special care with her appearance. Her hair was always neatly done, make-up perfectly applied, and she acted the role of “proper young lady” quite well. Imagine Peter’s horror when, early one morning, he found her in the kitchen, drinking orange juice straight from the carton! Then, to make matters worse, he found out that Shelley was a horrible housekeeper. In short, Shelley was a slob, albeit a well-groomed one.

   Now that Shelley and Peter are engaged and living together, all masks are off. Both Peter and Shelley are re-evaluating their mate choices. Can they overcome the reality of each other? Can they learn to live with each other’s foibles? Or, should they decide to break up?

   The answer to that question lies in the depth of their commitment to each other. Do they love each other enough to change, while still being true to themselves? Conversely, do they love each other enough to put up with each other’s perceived faults?

   This trial marriage will give Peter and Shelley the time they need to work through these problems. Using negotiation, they might decide that staying out late on Friday and Saturday nights will work for both of them. They might also decide that Peter does the housekeeping, and Shelley does the cooking. They can use this time between their dating days and their life as a married couple to smooth over the rough edges of their relationship.

   Before the sexual revolution of the sixties, I wonder how many newly married couples never made it to their first anniversary. In the movie adaptation of Tennessee Williams’ play “Period of Adjustment” (1962), a newly married couple start having trouble on their wedding day. As they drive towards their honeymoon destination, we can see that they are thinking they made a mistake. He kissed her too roughly, and she is a high-maintenance Daddy’s girl. They are both surprised to find these things out on their wedding day. They spend a long portion of the movie wondering if they have made a huge mistake.

   Of course, in true Hollywood style (and going against Williams’ usual dark themes with even darker endings), at the end of the movie we see that they will stay together, and will work through their problems. However, this movie was made in 1962. Societal standards were much different then.

   In Atwater’s (1985) article, there was not much data presented. If we take 1965 as the starting point for the cohabitation trend, that allows only 20 years for data collection. Moreover, since the article itself is 14 years old, I decided that I needed information that is more current.

   I conducted an on-line survey. It is in no way scientific. The participants are a group of people from around the world, who gather daily, to chat, monkey around and discuss one particular subject (not related to relationship issues). I have no way to know how old the respondents are, or even which gender they are. I asked the following question and got the following results:

Question:      Did you live together with a significant other before marriage?
Yes, and married Significant Other             30 (55.6%)
Yes, but did not marry that SO              8 (14.8%)
No, what, are ya crazy? My momma would kill me        1 (1.9%)
No, but did marry                    13 (24.1%)
No way baby, the single life's for me!           2 (3.7%)
Total Voters: 54

When I put the survey up, I promised anyone who completed it total anonymity and told them I would not use their comments in my paper. As I read the comments, I found some so interesting that I changed my mind. I then posted an addendum to the survey, asking permission to quote from posts, provided I do not reveal any personal information. I did this because I do not take credit for other’s ideas, and I wanted to assure the respondents that their identities would not be disclosed. Some of the comments follow:

“I did live with my first husband before marriage. We were divorced after 15 years of marriage. What I discovered is that since he did not respect me enough to treat me like a lady before marriage, he did not change afterwards.”

“Voted Yes - I lived with my hubby before we were married.    As time goes on, we get closer to each other, and appreciate each other more.  I guess I'm lucky.   It worked for us.”

“My thinking at the time we lived together was that I'd never really 'get to know' him until I lived with him, right?  Ermmm wrong!!  Didn't really get to know who he really was until we made it 'forever, til death do us part'.   Didn't realize that death could mean my trust in all men forever. Lots of things one can learn, after that ring wedding goes on the finger.  Several of my female friends and I, at the time, realized that 'playing house' was just that, playing.  It wasn't 'real' until we were married.  And the game stopped.  It was like the guys had chased, finally conquered, were tired of it all, and just became... themselves.  For us it was like... eeeeeeeeeek!  Who have I married?"

“I have been married 43 years to the same man. Married right out of HS with one official date so to speak. And have never looked back. I knew him for 2 years before we were married.”

   “I was married twice - 1st marriage did not live together - married for 12 yrs - 2nd marriage we lived together for 1 year and have been married for 11 years and will be forever we have a very healthy and happy marriage - difference between the 1st and 2nd marriage is in my 2nd we have FUN together.”

     “As I sit here (being my over sensitive self) and trying not to be offended by posters implying that my life is just “playing house"......I'll try to explain something to you all (not that I owe anyone a explanation) I have never wanted to get married, nope, I don't believe a person (me) has to have a piece of legal paper to make a life with someone. My first long term relationship ended (2 kids) but it would have ended with or without that legal paper. My second long-term relationship (the one and last relationship I'll have with a man) has lasted for 20 years. This man has helped me raise my two kids, has made it possible for me to be financially settled. We both own our home, cars, etc. He is the most gentle man I have ever known, the most loving and caring and I so appreciate him every day of my life and...... I don't need a legal paper to tell me that our love is not real, that we are "just playing house".........WE live our lives both happy and content in the fact that we are not “playing".... we are just living the best that we can.”

    As you can see, I did not pick out only the comments that reflected my view. The last one struck me as particularly relevant. Even though the respondent does not support marriage, s/he does support the commitment aspect of marriage.

     As a Family Life Educator, my job will be to help people navigate the waters of their life. My job will not be to tell them how to live their lives, but to help them deal with the life they are living. If a couple comes to me, married or not, needing help with their relationship, my advice to them will be the same. In the end, it is all about commitment.

     Living together before marriage is a test run of the couple’s commitment to each other. A successful cohabitation will probably enhance the couple’s chance at a successful marriage.
Although this assignment is titled “Cohabitation vs. Legal Marriage”, I do not see it as an “either/or” issue. I see cohabitation as the step between dating and marriage. I see cohabitation as the last filter to be applied in the mate selection process. Of course, I am not saying that everyone should live together before marriage. However, I do believe that in today’s world of no-fault divorces, it is too easy to just walk away from a marriage. Therefore, I believe that cohabitation, when done successfully, enhances the possibility of a stable, long lasting marriage.













References
Atwater, L. (1985). Cohabitation: long-term cohabitation without a legal ceremony is equally valid and desirable. In H. & M. Feldman (Eds.), Current controversies in marriage and family (pp.243-252). Beverly Hills, CA: Sage
Williams, Tennessee. Period of Adjustment. Screenplay by Tennessee Williams and Isobel Lennart. Dir. George Roy Hill. Perfs. Jane Fonda, Jim Hutton, Anthony Franciosa, Lois Nettleton. 1962. VHS. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, Inc.

::MonkeyLaugh:: You are never to old!!!!!!! ::MonkeyHaHa::

On Wednesdays I am too old! And, as if that isn't bad enough (paper due, no music to go along with the paper, very little humor in the paper- I am KNOWN for my humorous papers with the music citations) I have a cold. Not sure if I should go to class...I think they've found swine flu downstate, but not sure how my cohorts will feel about me being there...hope they don't make me sit at a table all by myself, if they do, I WILL log on to scared monkeys and goof around!

Good job Tevye!   Hope you get that A+ !!    ::MonkeyWink::

Great paper, Tevye! Hope you get an A+!! ::MonkeyDance::

Thanks, Sassy. I'm still thinking I have time to throw in a music quote (the theme from "Leave It to Beaver" keeps running thru my head:
June: Ward, we need to talk
Ward: About what, honey
June (adjusting her pearls): Ward, the Beav wants to move in with a girl!
Ward: Well, it's about time! June, he's a 30 year old bachelor living in our basement! Let him go!

dum da da dada dum tee dum....

oh, and did ya'll get the shout out in there for you? "monkeying around"? get it???

Tevye, excellent, hope you get an A ::MonkeyCool::

I can see Dolce how the 'inlaws' play the role.  My aunt was preggers many years ago, would never admit always celebrated anniversary one year before....to cover the pregnancy.  My mom knew the truth as she was in the wedding. 

My aunt had to filter into her children's lives.  To the point that when her own daughter was preggers....there was an uproar, that you must have heard it in FL.  But...everyone kept ....quiet, as to not reveal the truth.  They felt she lied, or tried to cover the truth, and it will come out one of these days.

So...aunt being Lutheran, and new son-in-law being Catholic.  It went like this, to keep peace.  On Sunday, the married couple, that were married in the Catholic Church, and then remarried in the Lutheran church, went to both masses on Sunday....just to keep aunts mouth shut.

Wasn't until years later, when in the passing that the kids finally found out the truth.  Saddened...very saddened that their MOM...bullied them for years..for her own lifestyle.

Late to the survey, but here is a Male Type Monkey perspective...

Lived with HS sweetheart - got pressued to get married...broke up
Lived with next girlfriend - got engaged, got disengaged...broke up
Lived with next girlfriend - she got crazy...broke up
Lived with next girlfriend - bought a house, got married, 2 kids, 15 years coming up next month.

I must add this...my son and his girlfriend had a daughter...and the plans for marriage proceeded.  However, the little girl turned 2 and 6 weeks prior to the wedding a son was born.

Well let me tell you...HOW SO VERY PROUD I WAS ON THEIR WEDDING DAY.

My little grandaughter walked down the aisle between grandpa and mom.  My newest grandson, was carried out by my son with the groomsmen.  Oh yes, grandson had on a white tux as well.

To me...that was so beautiful, that it made their wedding day.  The 16 x 18 pic of the wedding day that they have of their two children (who are now 16 & 18) hang in their living room. 

 

Thanks for the male Monkey views. So 1 outta 4 ain't bad!

What a sweet story! I bet you had one of those smiles on, the kind that make your face hurt the next day, but a good hurt.

What a wonderful story GrammaMonkey.  ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::

LOL....dang Tev,I feel like a star!   ::MonkeyCool::
Great paper,I hope you get all A's in this class,you work hard for it!
For the record,it's not that I don't support marriage.....I support whatever makes a person happy and content in life.

Oh, yeah, Karma, baby you're a star!!!! Thanks to you and all who helped. I'll let you know how the grade turns out.

Good paper!

   ATTA GIRL TEVYE    thanks for the survey, it was fun to read about others and also to sort of analyze parts of my life that don't get much thought.  I hope you did well and it was really quite clever of you to combine monkeytime with classtime.   Major award for you!!!!!!!  I enjoyed your paper and it seems like what you came up with is true. Talk to ya in the forum, and don't start trouble and get me O/T!  Sometimesjust looking at your avi gets me wanting to say something goofy.  I loves me some sponge bob  and add ole sparky, it's a good time just waiting to happen.    janet

Well, kids, it's time to report the grade. I got a 9 out of 10 on it. Reading the prof's comments leads me to believe that he marked me down a point because I didn't take a stand against cohabitation. I believe that I stated my thesis properly, and totally defended my stance. So, that leaves only my thesis in question.

Being a straight A student, this little markdown hasn't been easy to take. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to school work. I have to keep reminding myself of this little gem that I figured out very early in this Family Life Educ. bachelor's program: As a FLE. it won't be my job to judge people's lives and tell them they're living their life wrong. It will be my job to help them walk the path they've chosen a little more easily.

So, he humbled me on the grade, but he reinforced my belief about my career. In the end, it's the beliefs that will matter, not the grade.

Thank you all again for your help (he did like the idea of the survey, but was sorry it wasn't more scientific....uh, dude, it's the net. It's not the place for private info like age, length of marriage/blah blah). I WILL be doing this again, as I myself found it very informative! Plus, it was fun yakking with ya'll!!

(Oh, and was I surprised that a minister would mark me down for thinking that living together before marriage was a good idea? NOT AT ALL!!)  ::MonkeyDevil::  <somebody made that just for  me, didn't they??? ::MonkeyLaugh::