Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

starting this thread to sort out Marilyn Elizabeth Tieken who married Gary D Lawless the same day under her name of Marilyn Tieken and also Mariln Short.  why marriages under two different names the same day.  And where is the divorce under the short name before she marries Manuel Gomes.  And which Manuel Gomes is this? Why do her lawless boys use the Gomes name. 

I'll go gather up what records I already have, then we can go from there.

DD there was a thread somewhere we talked about the marriage of Gary Lawless to Marilyn Tieken and we wondered if Gary was CLL remebered? The question was asked why their lives paralled one another? What happened with that?

I don't know where that is, but if I run into it I will either pull the info over here, or link to it.

the marilyn Tieken and boys and her marriages records/genealogy is all on page #2 and page #3 of the genealogy thread, beginning on page #2 Reply #38. 

I will go get the actual records/certificate info and post it here.

here is one of my very first posts about this, so I will just copy and post it here, has all the basics in it

Name: Timothy J Lawless
Birth Date: 11 Dec 1964
Gender: Male
Mother's Maiden Name: Tieken
Birth County: Glenn


brother
Name: Gary D Lawless
Birth Date: 7 Apr 1966
Gender: Male
Mother's Maiden Name: Tieken
Birth County: Napa


brother
Name: Jeffrey C Lawless
Birth Date: 21 Nov 1967
Gender: Male
Mother's Maiden Name: Tieken
Birth County: Napa


Mother of all boys above
Name: Marylin Elizabeth Tieken
Birth Date: 20 Mar 1937
Gender: Female
Mother's Maiden Name: Forman
Birth County: Napa

Mother married Gary D Lawless AFTER all boys above were born
Name: Marylin E Tieken
Age: 30
Est. Birth: abt 1938
Spouse Name: Gary D Lawless
Spouse Age: 35
Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1933
Date: 6 Jun 1968
Location: Napa


Mother divorces Gary D Lawless a month After she married himcaifornia divorce
Name: Marylin E Ticken
Spouse Name: Gary D Lawless
Location: Napa
Date: Jul 1968

Mother is also married to Gary D Lawless using the last name of SHORT, on the very same day she married him under the last name if Tieken


Name: Gary D Lawless
Age: 35
Est. Birth: abt 1933
Spouse Name: Marylin E Short
Spouse Age: 30
Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1938
Date: 6 Jun 1968
Location: Napa


Mother then marries Manuel Gomes
Name: Marylin E Tieken
Age: 36
Est. Birth: abt 1937
Spouse Name: Manuel Gomes
Spouse Age: 44
Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1929
Date: 30 Oct 1973
Location: Solano

I found no divorce for marilyn and manuel gomes
 
 

 

Since then have learned a lot more. 

here are the full names of the boys

Timothy John Lawless aka Gomes
Gary Duane Lawless, aka Gomes
Jeffrey Carl Lawless, aka Gomes

Father
Gary D Lawless - we have never been able to figure out who he is
Mother Marilyn Elizabeth Tiekne aka Marilyn E Short, aka Marilyn E Gomess

The mother and the boys all have criminal records with arrests in Butte County, Glen County, and I forget where else.  They have court docs in Butte County, Glen County, Tehema County, Shasta County.  They also have addresses in all of these places.  You can find most of this info on the first few pages of the Timothy Lawless thread(the huge thread)

i going to be calling her m.  or mary a lot.  don't want anyone confused..yet..'cause just wait ::MonkeyConfused::
m. e. tiekin (forman)
dob 3-20-1937

'wedding' of gary lawless to m. e. tiekin -her est yob 1938
'wedding' of gary lawless to m. e. short -her est yob  1938

divorce of gary lawless to m. e. tiekin- her est yob 1938
divorce of gary lawless to m.e.  short (don't even know if theydid divorce)

wedding of m.e. tiekin to Gomes -est yob is back to 1937.

how did she grow younger while with lawless?

i tell ya HE is Short...don't worry, i wont get started on that (yet) ::MonkeyDevil::

we have researched every line we could find with any Gary Lawless which we thought might fit.  Some of these are in the genealogy thread, others are scattered in the HUGH thread.  We could never make anything "fit".

Now there has to be a reason why marilyn tieken marries gary d lawless after all 3 boys are born, only to divorce him one month later, and also to have two marriage records to him under two different names for her, on the very same day.  then her kids decide to use the Gomes name who she marries several years later.

I'm just giving a rundown of what we do know so far, what we have looked for and not found, and where to find info already on the board.  Feel free to discuss whatever you think.  We are going to have to brainstorm in order to figure out what we should look for next. 

I'll try to look for any new docs I can find that might help

all three boys were born years before they got married.  all three boys had the last name of lawless.  are they really his sons?  were tinkin and lawless in relationship all that time?  it just seems a little odd (exp when you remember this was the 60's) that they were ok with having this long term relationship which netted three children in four years, and then got married...  twice..., on the same day, and tinkin turned into short the second time.
 ::MonkeyEek::then they (well, lawless and tinkin, not short) got divorce a WHOLE month later.   ::MonkeyShocked::

ok..
did tinkin and lawless file to get marriage lic.  at the same place (or the same day)  as short and lawless?  if so, how..i would think that the file clerk would remember the people she had just seen the same day.  and the fact that the bride now has a different name.
who signed the marrage lic?  was it the same person for both?  again, how?
how did they get such a quick divorce in 1968 with three kids on the line. a month?  is lawless on the birth cert? or did they turn into lawless's later? ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyWaa::

Conjugal visits? Or a wife can not testify against her husband?

Back in 1968 it wasn't as easy to get a divorce as the no fault divorce was not a law until the 1970's.

What happens in the case of bigamy? Does the marriages end in divorce?

# Comment by Marella — May 4, 2009 @ 2:10 pm

I have known Tim Lawless (formerly Gomes) for many years. He changed his name several years ago. Told me he wanted to use his mother’s maiden name instead of his step-fathers. I have seen the arrest report and read all the blogs here and on SM - and I find it difficult to believe. I knew him before he married Chona (she had a small daughter) together they have a son. I have worked with him in the IT field for a long time. The picture in the hat IS Tim Lawless, the other pics I’ve seen trying to determine if it is him also, ARE NOT. We who know him are shocked.

Marella-
I appreciate you weighing in. I have heard the same from other colleagues of his, and I guess yours. I have to be honest, I would strap in, this is going to get worse before it gets better. I spent a great number of years early as an IT Consultant for Fortune 500 Clients- I KNOW what kind of access he had and his capabilities; I would be very interested to know what’s on his computers.
B
this is from blinks site a while back.
guess tim went from lawless to gomes to lawless ::MonkeyEek::

now how could lawless be his mothers maiden name?

any marriage after the first doesn't count (in the eyes of the law)  but, this is where it gets sticky...if man marries woman 1, then marries woman 2, legally man and woman 2 aren't married.  but if woman 2 wants to marry different man, she's gonna' have to divorce man 1 to make her marriage to man 2 legal ::MonkeyConfused::

maybe that was his way of explaining it to people? Good catch though!

ok why does tim believe m. maiden name to be lawless..notice not his fathers name, not his moms first hubby name, her maiden name.  but WE know her maiden name was tiekin.  he should have been calling himself tim tiekin.

oh, YOU ROCK ::MonkeyCool:: ::MonkeyDance::

it makes no sense he changed to his mother's name of lawless, she is definitely a TIEKEN, we have all her records going all the way back.  this person posting either is just making this stuff up(which I hate to say that about anyone) OR, tim told her a bunch of BS and she believes him. And the boys are all born Lawless.   

And there is a chance timothy lawless doesn't know the truth either. 

I just scrolled through all of the births in cali with the name of short.  there is nothing in there for any shorts that would be gary d short.  but there could be in other states.  I also went all the way through 1976 to see if any short children were born with a mother who is tieken, did not find any. 

I did find a nettie short whose mother is a doyle, I also found a short whose father is a sinclair(name of guy in mhp), and what is also interesting about this is there is also a marriage of a tieke and a sinclair.  I don't know if they are related to one another or to the guy in the MHP, it is probably just all coincidence. 

the weird thing is, the mariages are recorded the very same day.  so it is not like marilyn figured out she was someone else(adopted) and changed the record, or that she married under another married name she had kept and figured out she had to chang it later(it happened the same day), so just is werird. 

but he started AS lawless. was he ever a legal gomes?  if not maybe he had to turn back into a lawless 'cause it was fraud for him to be gomes.

they did it for a reason. i don't think it came up after the first 'wedding' 'hey, that was fun, lets do it again, now..but this time say your name is short' ::MonkeyRoll::

its possible he just decided to be a gomes one day but then someone needed a document for his birth so he went back to saying he was lawless, and just made up the story of his mother's name.  all the boys have used the gomes name.  lets see, how old were they when she married gomes?  could they be young and did not know gomes was not their father until years later? 

maybe they don't know. they were young and by the time lawless and tinkin and short got married, it was over..after a month.  i find it very hard imagine that these boys are g.  lawless'..can we find the divorce and are the boys even mentioned in it?

I can't find anything else on a Marilyn elizabeth short in cali.  there is a marylin I. short, let me see what I can find.  maybe her middle name changed too?  LOL

let me dig up everything I can possibly find so we can sort through it and see if we can figure out anything.  I will not post all the stuff that is already over on the HUGE thread.  but I will just look for docs that seem it MIGHT BE them.

tim was 4 when tiken/short (i will start calling her the gals cause its easier) lawless got married/divorced. that was in 68. i think the gals married gomes in '72 or '74 (i'll have to go back and check).  if it were '72 then tim would have been 8...'74-10.  he was old enogh to remember when his mom married gomes.

it was '73..he was nine

::MonkeyHaHa::
elizabeth turned into ilizabeth... ::MonkeyConfused::

Ok lets everyone put on their "criminal hats" and lets try to come up with some reasons a person would need to do this. Why does a person marry two times on the same day to the same person under 2 names. 

Where does the name short come from? Was she ever a short? I think that has been answered and it is no. Did she stay married under one of the names? Which name was it?

maybe she was Marilyn Short from the beginning and then coined herself Tiekin.  we can find records on Tiekin...maybe she could too (not like this, but maybe m. Tiekin had died  and m.short knew about it)  maybe life was better being m Tiekin than m Short.  i'm sure it couldn't have been too hard considering the legal docs we're seeing estimate year of birth..
Lets remember,,the gals were a year younger while marring/divorcing lawless then any other record we have.  birth of Tiekin states may 1937, marriage to gomes may 1937 during all the lawless shenanagans 1938.

maybe she was..maybe she was (we don't have a first name yet)  who read an obit about M. Tinken, realized that they were about the same age  and volia' she's now Tinken.  OR  (i'm going long with this)  maybe she was tinken and short was the mother of the boys???  somehow tinken got them and married lawless 2 times with 2 names to make sure all bases were covered in case anyone got hinkey...or maybe she was ??Lawless in the first place, aquired the boys and then became tinken/short (aka the gals)

tinken divorced lawless, but short did not (but they were never really married (short) because he and tinken were married first.
 ::MonkeyConfused::

okay if she stole the tieken name and then married under her real name? or maybe she stole the short name also.  but why would you marry the same day under both names?  drunk? on drugs, acting stupid?  thought is would not matter if under a fake name?  but both are in napa county, would the county record them both?  maybe so?

had she married a short before she married gary d lawless?  and was his name a lie also?  we certainly can't find his parents. 

so yes, tracygirl, if a person is a criminal, why do they do this?  to have more ID's for what?  fraud?  drawing welfare under more than one name in two counties?  possibly.  two names and two sets of children, two checks. 

why get divorced a month later?  an annullment?  but you can't get an annullment with kids?  did she say they were not his?  was she married to a different lawless before gary?  maybe she was married to his brother? cousin?  did she then marry him and the get an aullment.  would it then read DIVORCE?


JUST THINKING OUT LOUD

do me a favor and see if any tiekin/short had died.

maybe she really was a lawless (boys last names) but at sometime been a known as a tinken (that counts for 1 kid) and a short (theres another, or two) and the only way to make it all match up would be to marry a lawless. 
uggh ::MonkeyConfused::

Social Security Death Index
about Marilyn I. Short
Name: Marilyn I. Short
SSN:xxxxxx3666 
Born: 15 Nov 1937
Died: 8 Nov 1998
State (Year) SSN issued: California (1955)
 

Name: Marilyn I Short
Birth Date: Mar 1938
Phone Number: Edit-No phone numbers please
Address: 804 Burlingame Av, Burlingame, California 94010-0801 (1993)

804 Burlingame
BURLINGAME, CA

Possible Relatives:

SHORT, MARILYN I (Age 71)
SHORT, LAWRENC 



BURLINGAME, CA

Possible Relatives:

SHORT, LAWRENCE M (Age 94)
SHORT, LAWRENC

other last names at this address are pinkus and resnik

notice one is born Nov 15, 1938 and one born March 1937

m. short (the name) would have disappered  after this because she was never legally married to lawless(tieken did it first) and she never divorced him either.  m short is out there in the ozone somewhere.  maybe short was a person (a seperate person) other than m.tinkin and for some reason short had to disapper

the one born nov 1938 is in the social security death records, the one born in march 1937 is not in the death records

the previous post refers to marylin "I", not E

there is a marilyn JEAN short in solano county, this is the county where marylin tieken marries gomes. 

but the bdate on this one is 1934
California Birth Index, 1905-1995
about Marilyn Jean Short
Name: Marilyn Jean Short
Birth Date: 10 Apr 1934
Gender: Female 
Mother's Maiden Name: Wentz 
Birth County: Solano 
 

sounds like a bad joke--who came first the Tieken or the Short. ::MonkeyConfused::

heck, she (tha gals) could be none of the above...but now she M. Tieken/Short/Gomes. but that doesn't mean she started out as any of them 
LOL i K ::MonkeyRoll::NEW marring a lawless wouldn't make you grow younger.

depending on the husband the gals were born in '37 '38.  we have record of '37.  it wouldn't be too hard to put a loop in that 7 and turn it into an 8.
something stinks in tieken short land.
at this point i wonder if she's legally married to gomes.

is there any way we can get a copy (like orig copy machine) copy of the boys birth certs?  i'm just wondering if her yob changed then as well

and a copy of the divorce to lawless..i want to know the grounds and who filed first as well as know why, after 3 alleg children together and 4 alleg years of love they called it quits after a month.   ::MonkeyConfused::

m.i short 1937-1998-cross her out
m.i.short 1938 has an add '93 not dead yet
m.j.short 1934 (she'd be 75)  do we know if she has a current/semi current add?

brb

when she married manuel gomes, she was under the name of lawless
California Marriage Index, 1960-1985
about Marylin E Lawless
Name: Marylin E Lawless
Age: 36 
Est. Birth: abt 1937 
Spouse Name: Manuel Gomes
Spouse Age: 44 
Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1929 
Date: 30 Oct 1973
Location: Solano 
 

we need someone to go to the napa and solano cali court houses and read the microfilm.  I don't know anyone in that area.  does anyone? 

with the new laws they are not going to let us order the records I am sure.  Too easy for someone to become someone else LOL. if they didn't already. 

here she is in rochester washington

Name: Marylin E Gomes
Address: 8710 SW 180th WY, Rochester, Washington 98579-0301 (1993)

Marylin E Gomes
Birth Date: 1937
Address: Pob 273, Corning, California 96021-0201 (1993)
[3067 Burnham Av, Corning, California 96021-0901 (1992)]
[Rr 1 Pob 264, Corning, California 96021] 

the 1934?

for my own benefit
the gals married lawless
only tieken divorced lawless
m lawless married gomes...

so short is still married to lawless and when tieken divorce lawless she kept the name.

so good by m. tieken and m. short.
huhh..

no, this is timothy's mother.  for a fact.  he and others of the same family are also listed at this address, so this is her. 

and for some reason the boys think mom maiden name is lawless.
sheesh..
at this point it could have been...
maybe we can't find g lawless for a reason..maybe he was married to whoever this lady could be, had children with her, but was also married to m, tieken AND m. short...
my theory for the night is: he killed them both and to hide it had ??mystery woman pose as both...
that was lame and i'm sorry DD...i've got to hang it up for the night my brain is FRIED! ::MonkeyConfused::

I wonder if there is anything in old news articles about her.  maybe they got arrested or something. 

we don't find manuel gomes listed at any of the addresses.  where did he go? 

maybe she is a black widow?   ::MonkeyShocked::

at the same time I am posting she killed both husbands LOL

hmmm what if she married under her name of tieken, got the copy, changed the name on it to short, then took it to have it recorded, but whoever married them also recorded the one with the right name? 

she might not have ever wanted to marry gary d lawless, she just wanted her name changed so no one would know who she really was.  was she hiding from the law?  then she gets the divorce or he does? 

or like you said, she never was marylin tieken.  maybe she was a short, used the tieken name and gary got a divorce saying that was not her right name etc?

oh gee who knows  ::MonkeyDevil::

no, that can't be right, her boys birth records say mother nee name is tieken, so that must be her.  so did she change the name on the marriage record then go record it under the phoney name of short so no one could trace her back to tieken?  how weird to do it that way though, but back then you could probably get away with it.

Was Gary lawless born in the USA? Could it have been for citizenship? (explaining the one month marriage)

Wasn't it popular to marry someone who you where in crimes with because a wife couldn't testify against a husband?

Maybe Gary lawless is this gomes guy? I wish we could find pictures

the US census is available through 1930, those will show who is born where and where their parents are born.  but gary d lawless is listed as born after 1930 so he will not show up on the census, so we can't get records from that. 

I might go look for the lawless who ARE on the 1930 census in napa and see which ones pop up... gary d lawless might have also been there in the navy or something too and not even from california at all.

yes, there was a law they could not make you testify against your husband.  I don't know if that is in affect now, but it was then I believe.

 

these are the lawless names I find on the census in NAPA

these are inmates of napa state hospital

1910 United States Federal Census
about Maria Cawless
Name: Maria Cawless
[Maria Lawless] 
Age in 1910: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Birthplace: Ireland
Relation to Head of House: Inmate 
Father's Birth Place: Ireland 
Mother's Birth Place: Ireland 
Home in 1910: Napa, Napa, California
Marital Status: Married 
Race: White
Gender: Female 
Neighbors: View others on page 
Household Members: Name Age
Amo Harris 59 
Sarah Harold 48 
Rose Haberly 66 
Katie Hughes 43 
Mary Heath 64 
Hannah Haralin 62 
Rebecca Houschfeld 68 
Ami Hunt 68 
Emily Hones 53 
Anna Helling 74 
Mamie Hosking 39 
Emily S Jones 54 
Hannah Johnson 81 
Anna P Jensens 61 
Annie Johnson 53 
W S Jon 40 
Annie Johnson 58 
Lena Jacobson 70 
Alice W Kuffel 60 
Margaret Kohn 73 
Mate Ceye Kelley 56 
Anna Kinsell 64 
Emma Kricham 58 
Ann Kellay 67 
Catherine Kelly 65 
Cemas Komer 44 
Johanna Emahan 79 
Naomi M Lewis 6/12 
Bridget Owns 71 
Maria Cawless 60  (aka maria lawless)
 
 
__________________________________

again Napa State Hospital

1900 United States Federal Census
about Maria Lawless
Name: Maria Lawless
Home in 1900: Napa, Napa, California
Age: 44
Birth Date: 1856
Birthplace: California
Race: White
Ethnicity: American 
Gender: Female 
Relationship to Head of House: Patient
Residence : Napa Township, Soscol and Coombsville Precincts (Excl. Napa City), Napa, California
Occupation: View on Image
Neighbors: View others on page 
Household Members: Name Age
Lizzie Bohman 25 
Emilie Wuest 52 
Jennie Veidor 38 
Elfrida Tisdale 22 
Rose Thirion 45 
Wendla Thors 41 
Emma Sclinbert 42 
Mary A Russell 58 
Sarah G Preshaw 51 
Mary O Neill 39 
Allie Ogilvie 46 
Mary Olsen 46 
Anna Nesbitt 38 
Alice Messier 35 
Maggie Mc Kee 27 
Alice Ligrot 23 
Hannah Langan 67 
Ellen Laioles 68 
J F Jordan 62 
Anna Jensen 44 
Eugenie Heinrich 50 
Naomi G Huff 34 
Mary Graham 59 
Emily Earley 57 
Jane Doe UNKN 
Mary J Dillon 48 
Mary J Collins 79 
Mary Rossonette 63 
Lizzie Best 32 
Annie Murphy 64 
Naomi M Lewis UNKN 
Annie Mc Cormick 38 
Sarah J D Arcy 65 
Sarah Daley 42 
N W Spenser 50 
Hilda L Larson 28 
Mary A Binner 39 
Hattie Perrin 48 
Adelaide Murray 49 
John Norton UNKN 
Norah Shea 49 
Annie T Chase 45 
Ann Cure 40 
Elizabeth A Forrester 49 
Sophia Fisher 41 
Anne Harris 49 
Jennie Johanson 48 
W S Joy   
Hannah Johnson 71 
Ann Kelly 57 
Maria L Kelley 46 
Mary Maher 40 
Elizabeth Sanders 57 
Kate Anderson 58 
Mary A Ahern 44 
Mary Callahan 55 
Alice Quinn 52 
Margaret Reagan 45 
Jane Robertson 68 
Madeline Rodes 63 
Martha C Sullivan 58 
Catherine Ashton 58 
Amelia Arias 49 
Ellen Barry 80 
Teresa Barily 61 
Catherine J Coleman 55 
Rosana B Cadwell 71 
Mary A Cowie 75 
Margaret Conroy 65 
Julia Cleary 87 
Mary Colfer 60 
Mary Dix 47 
Henrietta Enders 43 
Honora Fanning 51 
Lena Fleishman 41 
Oniska Fiske 50 
Annie Housten 63 
Jane Hines 46 
Rosalie Hin? 65 
Mary D Healy 51 
Mary Jarvis 50 
Esetra Kelly 80 
Maria Lawless 44  
Bridget Lyons 61 
Johanna Leoy 67 
Barbara Myers 49 
A R Olsen 52 
Sarah Smith 69 
Mary Sandrock 76 
Augusta Tr?Ebel 51 
Alice Van Kuelen 60 
Emma Weburg 36 
Mary H Whitney 83 
Ida B Williams 70 
Annie B Young 48 
F E Dickenson 44 
______________________________


 
1880 United States Federal Census
about Richard Lawless
Name: Richard Lawless
Home in 1880: Suscol, Napa, California
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Birthplace: Massachusetts
Relation to Head of Household: Something other than a direct relationship (Other)
on the original looks like it says HIRED MAN
Father's birthplace: Ireland
Mother's birthplace: Ireland
Neighbors: View others on page 
Occupation: Farm Laborer
Marital Status: Single
Race: White
Gender: Male
Cannot read/write:

Blind:

Deaf and dumb:

Otherwise disabled:

Idiotic or insane: View image
Household Members: Name Age
Jeremiah Buckley 47 
Helen Buckley 43 
Mary T. Buckley 20 
Helen F. Buckley 18 
Caroline A. Buckley 16 
Sarah E. Buckley 14 
Rachel Buckley 12 
Richard Lawless 24 
Patrick T. Jordon 15 
_______________________

again, napa state hospital

1920 United States Federal Census
about William Lawless
Name: William Lawless
Home in 1920: Napa, Napa, California
Age: 53 years 
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Birthplace: California
Relation to Head of House: Inmate 
Father's Birth Place: Kansas 
Mother's Birth Place: Kansas 
Marital Status: Single 
Race: White
Sex: Male
Able to read: Yes 
Able to Write: No 
Image: 284 
Neighbors: View others on page 
Household Members: Name Age
Clarence Gatlin 22 
Zanerio Giovanoni 62 
Manuel Gelina 39 
Wilbur C Gibson 17 
Oliver Gilbert un 
Fred A Gleason 45 
Carl Gochenback 36 
Antone Gogl 71 
Edward I Goldberg 23 
James F Gooch 63 
William Gordon 78 
Albert Gould 60 
Charles P Green 45 
Edward F Grimley 29 
Fred Grosse 26 
Alton Guidry 17 
Frank Gurwich 36 
Tibbs Gusippo un 
Herman Gustus 45 
George A Hafer 73 
Carl H Hamblen 30 
Alfred Hambrecht 21 
John Hannah 31 
Ernest Hansel 44 
Carl J Harkinson 63 
Claude E Harper 32 
George E Hart 46 
Will H Harvey un 
Bert Hays 36 
Claus Hein 59 
John Hennessey 56 
Albert A Herrera 25 
Robert B Hewson 48 
Gustave Hilker 36 
Ferdinand Kinsberger 48 
August Hinselman 43 
Charles Hollman 65 
Nelson Holt 58 
Shelby Hunter 78 
George Ingrim 58 
John Inskeep 63 
Andrew Jacobson 52 
Alfred Johnson 47 
Herbert A Johnston 38 
Jacob Johnson 48 
Walter Johnson 55 
George Jones 36 
Sam Jones 35 
Themastaki Jordigianis 30 
Jahek Julius un 
William Jung 69 
Emil Kappenman 31 
George Kase 51 
Timothy D Kearney 37 
John F Kellogg 67 
John Kelly 36 
Arthur R Kendall 24 
John H Kendall 52 
Matthew Kerwin 30 
Gus B Kessler 37 
Thomas Kilduff 60 
James Knight 36 
Henry Kosh 54 
Ludwick Kopp 49 
Frank Kroutch 60 
John V Kulke 64 
Kottara Kyriakos 50 
C F Lagerstrom 59 
Edward Lark 54 
Louis Lauray 53 
Frank J Laurie 47 
William Lawless 53 
John C P Leck un 
Chapman Leigh 51 
Feriso Lejano 30 
Gustave Le Roche 72 
Bruno Legrand 55 
Joseph Lennon 53 
Waldo Littlefield 62 
Knute Linborn 47 
Marion Longnure 23 
Charles W Lovell 25 
George Lowenthal 16 
Carl Lundhal 51 
August Lutgens 75 
Luis A Lux 59 
William S Lyons 41 
John M Magnusson 49 
Earl Malloy 28 
Clayton Manaugh 41 
Aaron Mann 22 
Ben Mason 35 
Arturo Manfredi 38 
Dominick W Mariano 44 
Roland Marx 30 
Guilemo Matarri 55 
John Mattson 34 
K Matumago 45 
George May 55 
George Meir 70 
 
 
 

 
 
 

 
 

DD, I've been trying to figure this out too.  I think it has something to do with money or hiding.  But none of her kids ever used tieken or short that we know of.
 :2thinky:

DD  i think you might have mis-posted on the what do we know for sure thred.  i think gomes was born in the 20's?  not sure, i'll have to look....
Hi.   ::MonkeyDance::

yes, I just noticed that too, UGH.. that is her birth year not his.  grrr  ::MonkeyDevil::

well look at this --- an this is in solano county, the other county that duplicated marriage with gary d lawless is Napa county, so it is not happening just because one county decided to do this. 

so what is going on, do all counties give you a separate record for each previous name you had?   ::MonkeyDevil::

California Marriage Index, 1960-1985
about Manuel Gomes
Name: Manuel Gomes
Age: 44 
Est. Birth: abt 1929 
Spouse Name: Marylin E Tieken
Spouse Age: 36 
Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1937 
Date: 30 Oct 1973
Location: Solano 
 
____________________________

California Marriage Index, 1960-1985
about Manuel Gomes
Name: Manuel Gomes
Age: 44 
Est. Birth: abt 1929 
Spouse Name: Marylin E Lawless  
Spouse Age: 36 
Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1937 
Date: 30 Oct 1973
Location: Solano 

hmmm and how come manuel gomes did not marry marylin E Short?  so it is not because they are doing a separate one for each previous name.  so what is going on?

oh I know, marylin tieken is a conjoined twin so he has to marry them both?  ::MonkeyDevil::

seriously though, wth?
why would they be doing this?

not only that, we can't find out what happens to either of these husbands.  where did they come from and where did they go?

if anyone reading has been married twice can you go check your records and see if it lists you with two records under two different names?

so... can we assume marylin tieken married a SHORT before she married gary d lawless?

could this be the same manuel gomes, in the same county, who is getting a divorce in jan and then marries marylin tieken/lawless in october of the same year? 

California Divorce Index, 1966-1984
about Manuel Gomes
Name: Manuel Gomes
Spouse Name: Marlene A Pountain
Location: Solano 
Date: Jan 1973
 

from the Trouble with the Law thread

this is the mother Marilyn Lawless/Gomes and the two brothers, or the mother, one brother jeffrey Carl Lawless/ Gomes and the father.
father and one brother are both named gary d lawless. 

CASE NUMBER:
FL35509
CASE TITLE:
LAWLESS VS. GOMES
CASE DESCRIPTION:
***DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
FILING DATE:
03/17/1993
DISPOSITION DESCRIPTION:
DISMISSED
DISPOSITION DATE:
04/12/1993

PARTIES
PARTY NAME RELATIONSHIP ATTORNEY NAME

LAWLESS, GARY D.
PLAINTIFF PRO PER

GOMES, JEFF C.
DEFENDANT N/A

GOMES, MARILYN E.
DEFENDANT N/A

EVENTS
DATE TIME DESCRIPTION DISPOSITION

04/05/1993 1:45PM OSC RE: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE TRO CONT TO 04/12/93 BY COURT
04/12/1993 1:45PM OSC RE: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE TRO GRANTED

ACTIONS
DATE DESCRIPTION

03/17/1993 OSC & TRO RE: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

03/29/1993 PROOF OF SERVICE

03/29/1993 PROOF OF SERVICE TO JEFF C. GOMES

i have been married 3! ::MonkeyShocked:: times
the first i listed my maiden name, after the divorce, i went by my maiden name but still had the same last name as my ex.. (on the cert of hub # 2 i listed my ex last name ..i think, its been a while  )  hubby #2 i took his last name on my dl but didn't change on my ssc 'cause it didn't last long enough for me to get around to it (#1 i'm lazy, and yes, it lasted longer than a month LOL ::MonkeyDevil::)  i had to get all of that straightened out when i got a job and my name didn't match up with my ss#.  i kept hub #2 name even when i married hub #3 'cause i finally got all my id fixed (i was stealing my own id)..i will eventually change it to #3 but until i have the time to get it all done at the same time, its gonna' wait.  it only took me years to fix it, i'm not gonna' mess with it anytime soon ::MonkeyConfused::

huh?  then lawless could be gomes.. ::MonkeyEek::  but WHO is short?? ::MonkeyConfused::

Marylyn is the mother -- Tieken/Short/Lawless/Gomes

she and her little tribe went back and forth using Lawless or Gomes.

Here's a new thought, though not very good:  maybe old Gary D. Lawless married 2 women on the same day.  One is Marylyn Tieken and the other is Marilene Short.
 :gaah:

i wouldn't but it past this group, can we find any records or Marilene?  marriage cert?  death cert?  divorce?  tax records? 
on the other hand...how did he pull that one off?? ::MonkeyEek::

if you look at the records for your marriages and divorces, does it show more than one record for each marriage, one record for each last name?  I am just wondering if this is normal, or are they recording two marriages each time for marylin and gary and for marylin and manuel. 

find records on who?  who is marilene?  or is that a typo? 

there are lots of court docs on these people.  Marylin tieken lawless has an arrest record for assault or battery in butte county, I think she also has a RO against her in shata county, both complainnts are from her son gary duane lawless against her and her son jeffrey carl lawless. 

In my state, you can get a license and leave.  Then you can come back and get the Justice of the Peace/Clerk of the Court to perform a civil ceremony or if you have a religous ceremony, the officiant signs it and returns it to the Clerk of the Court.  The license is valid for six months.  I could go, in theory, and obtain any number of licenses, although I am required to show identification.  However, I could go in and get a license without the other person being there.  So good old Gary could have gotten more than one license.  Then go and get married in two different places and who's to know.  It would take a very sharp person to realize they are different, because each license has a different number.  Get married by the JP and then turn around and get married by someone else who is qualified to sign it (and Lord knows they have enough "ministers" in the family, or just go to your favorite forger).  It's just a thought.  But the Short is really troublesome.

trying to find the obit for this one

Social Security Death Index
about Manuel Gomes
Name: Manuel Gomes
SSN:xxx-xx-xxxx
Last Residence: 95913  Artois, Glenn, California, United States of America
Born: 5 Jun 1929
Died: Aug 1977
State (Year) SSN issued: California (Before 1951)

timothy was born in glenn county, marylin's mother died their.

this manuel gomes is born the right year to be the one she married.  If we can find an obit, maybe some familiar names will be in it

Edit to remove ss# MB
 

California Birth Index, 1905-1995
about Manuel Gomes
Name: Manuel Gomes
Birth Date: 5 Jun 1929  
Gender: Male 
Mother's Maiden Name: Santos   
Birth County: Contra Costa 
 

so love found this
died
GOMES, Marylin E (TIEKEN)[LAWLESS]; 61; Chico CA; Chico E-R; 1998-12-9; bcr


and here is son jeffrey carl lawless
LAWLESS, Jeffrey Carl; 31; Chico CA; Chico E-R; 1999-3-11; bcr

Jeffrey died 3 months after his mother. 

chico is in butte county cali.
_____________

timothy is in sac jail
and last we find brother gary duane lawless is in shasta county cali.

so where is the father gary d lawless and step father manuel gomes?

It has taken almost 2 months to just find a page cited for a brief obit on Marylin and Jeff Gomes/lawless, I can only imagine how hard it will be to find the Gary lawless or Manuel Gomes. 2. I would really like to know why Marylin Gomes, the mother, and the son, Jeff Gomes, passed away?

I would also like to note in Butte county a sick indiviual by the name of William Buckley Gomes..

Case Information
Case Number:    SCM004423
Case Title:    PEOPLE vs. GOMES, WILLIAM B
Case Type:    SEXUAL OFFENSES
Filing Date:    06/07/94
Disposition Date:    06/30/94
   HTA; CERT TO SUP CT FOR TRIAL

Parties
Name    Type    Attorney
GOMES, WILLIAM BUCKLEY    DEFENDANT    FORLAND, DENNY
 In Custody? Y/N: N   Status:
Charges
Count    Filing Document    Degree    Charge    
01    COM    Felony    261(a)(2)    PC    FORCIBLE RAPE    
Plea:    NG
Plea Date:    06/30/94
Disposition:    06/30/94
HTA; BOUND OVER TO SUP CT   
Sentence:    
         
02    COM    Felony    288a(c)    PC    FORCIBLE ORAL COPULATION    
Plea:    NG
Plea Date:    06/30/94
Disposition:    06/30/94
HTA; BOUND OVER TO SUP CT   
Sentence:    
         
         
         
03    COM    Felony    288a(c)    PC    FORCILE ORAL COPULATION    
Plea:    NG[/color]
Plea Date:    06/30/94
Disposition:    06/30/94
HTA; BOUND OVER TO SUP CT   
Sentence:    
         
         
         
04    COM    Felony    289    PC    ANAL OR GENITAL PENETRATION FOREIGN OBJ    
      Plea:    NG
Disposition:    06/30/94
HTA; BOUND OVER TO SUP CT   
Sentence:       

Actions
Date    Action Description
07/06/94    TRANSFERRED TO SUPERIOR COURT -
HAND DELIVERED 070794 S/C

06/30/94    AMENDED COMPLAINT FILED

06/30/94    FELONY MINUTES - TO APPEAR IN SUP. CT. ON
7-13-94 AT 8:15 AM

06/13/94    BAIL BOND: MC MAINS BAIL BONDS
CS25-00041990 $15,000.00

06/07/94    FAX COMPLAINT FILED (CHICO)

06/07/94    COMPLAINT FILED BY DA.

Events
Date    Time    Event Description    Dept Code    Department/Judge
06/30/94    09:00    PRELIMINARY HEARING

Disposition Date: 06/30/94
HTA; BOUND OVER TO SUP CT

S2    SOUTH MUNI DEPT 2 (PRE-CONSOL)
06/23/94    09:00    PRELIMINARY HEARING

Disposition Date: 06/23/94
PX NOT HELD CONTINUED

S2    SOUTH MUNI DEPT 2 (PRE-CONSOL)
06/16/94    09:00    PRE-PX CONFERENCE

Disposition Date: 06/16/94
PX DATE CONFIRMED
S1    SOUTH MUNI DEPT 1 (PRE-CONSOL)
06/09/94    09:00    FURTHER ARRAIGNMENT, ENTRY OF PLEA,
APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL

Disposition Date: 06/09/94
PX, PT DATE SET

S1    SOUTH MUNI DEPT 1 (PRE-CONSOL)
06/07/94    13:29    ARRAIGNMENT

Disposition Date: 06/07/94
ARRAIGNED; REF TO PUB DEF

   S1    SOUTH MUNI DEPT 1 (PRE-CONSOL)

Snipped:
http://www.buttecourt.ca.gov/online_index/CMSCaseDisplay.cfm?URLCaseNumber=SCM004423 (http://www.buttecourt.ca.gov/online_index/CMSCaseDisplay.cfm?URLCaseNumber=SCM004423)

this is in chico, butte county cali.  (Battery charges)
youngest brother jeffrey carl lawless/gomes
has his case dismissed
6 days later his mother dies
3 months later he dies
Name Type Attorney
GOMES, JEFF CARL  DEFENDANT  VANDERVOORT, J JOSEPH 
   In Custody? Y/N: N   Status: 
 AKA - ALSO KNOWN AS: LAWLESS, JEFF 
   Charges   Count Filing Document Degree Charge 
 01 COM Misdemeanor (A) 242    PC BATTERY 

  Plea: 
  Plea Date: 
  Disposition: 12/03/98
   DISMISSED

look at all of these dismissals?
and what the heck they are still notifying dmv and also something about his payments in 2000 after he is dead?

why all of the dismissals? 

we also have to realize that we have NO CONFIRMED DEATH RECORDS FOR JEFFREY AND HIS MOTHER.  all we have is someone submitted to rootsweb obituaries that they are dead, anyone can just submit that.  if they died in chico there should be cali death records.  where are they?


Name Type Attorney
LAWLESS, JEFFREY CARL  DEFENDANT  VANDERVOORT, J JOSEPH 
   Charges   Count Filing Document Degree Charge 
 00  Misdemeanor (A) 1214.1(a)    PC CIVIL ASSESSMENTS 

  Plea: 
  Plea Date: 
  Disposition: 
     
  Sentence: 
   
   
   
 00 CIT  ASF     ADMIN SCREENING FEE 

  Plea: 
  Plea Date: 
  Disposition: 
     
  Sentence: 
   
   
   
 00 CIT Misdemeanor (A) 1202.4    PC RESTITUTION FINE 

  Plea: 
  Plea Date: 
  Disposition: 
     
  Sentence: 
   
   
   
 01 CIT Misdemeanor (C) 23152(a)    CVC DRIVING UNDER INFLUENCE OF ALCOHOL/DRUGS 

  Plea: NG
  Plea Date: 08/04/98
  Disposition: 12/03/98
   CONVICTED ON PLEA OF NOLO 
  Sentence: 12/03/98
   SUMMARY PROBN 36 MO;48 HRS BCJ-REPORT
   1-8-99 8PM;$1248+$100+$24+$35 IN MONTHLY
   PMTS OF $75;LEVEL I DUI SCHOOL
 02 CIT Infraction (T) 16028)(a)    CVC NO INSURANCE 

  Plea: NG
  Plea Date: 08/04/98
  Disposition: 12/03/98
   DISMISSED 
  Sentence: 
   
   
   
 03 CIT Infraction (T) 21657    CVC ONE-WAY TRAFFIC AND OFF-CENTER LANES 

  Plea: NG
  Plea Date: 08/04/98
  Disposition: 12/03/98
   DISMISSED 
  Sentence: 
   
   
   
 04 CIT Infraction (T) 14601.1(a)    CVC DRIVING WHILE SUSPENDED OR REVOKED 

  Plea: NG
  Plea Date: 08/04/98
  Disposition: 12/03/98
   DISMISSED 
  Sentence: 
   
   
   


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actions  Date Action Description
03/07/00 ABST TO DMV - FTP (DE3) LICENSE SUSPENDED

 
02/14/00 NTC: CIVIL ASSESSMENT ADDED-NO ADDRESS
  $1433

 
01/13/00 NTC: TICKLER: 10-DAY NOTICE
  $750 APRIL-JAN'00 PMTS

 
01/06/00 NTC: TICKLER: 10-DAY NOTICE
  $750 APRIL-JAN'00 PMTS

 
01/26/99 ABST TO DMV - CONVICTION (DE1)

 
09/08/98 MOTION TO WITHDRAW AS ATTORNEY OF RECORD

 
08/04/98 WAIVER OF DEFT'S PERSONAL PRESENCE 977 PC

 
08/04/98 STIPULATION FOR COMMISSIONER TO SIT AS
  JUDGE PRO TEM

 
06/29/98 CITATION FILED BY CPD 98-4576 OFFICER 1295

 
06/29/98 O/R AGREEMENT SIGNED BY DEFT
 

I agree about the records from roots web, what if someone just put them there?
Just like some of the geneology I have found..what if people are just making that up because people like me are searching for them??..LOL
Maybe they are extremely intelligent criminals who are covering their tracks even via internet? Just another "Jus Sayin"..LOL

And ohhhhhhhhh DD you are good!!! ::MonkeyWink::

I have also wondered if someone just went over there and submitted those LOL

also, I have noticed that someone changed their genealogy files in the last couple of weeks to blot out CLL and Melissa and her father brian.  now they are listed as unknown or LIVING person ad the names are gone.  weird.  LOL


also look at this.  timothy john lawless is driving in chico after his mother and brother have died over 2 years prior, so what is he doing over there?

Case Number: NT045853
Case Title: PEOPLE vs. GOMES, TIMOTHY JOHN 
Case Type: RULES OF THE ROAD VIOLATION
Filing Date: 01/05/00
Disposition Date: 06/05/00
 TVS COMPLETED

same year they are still notifying jeff's dmv and asking for his probation payments in court.  don't you think the court would know after over 2 years he is dead?

think about it, he is dead for 2 years and his probation officer does not know?   ::MonkeyDevil::

LOL..too funny...We need a good laugh for all the work we do..

On a serious note DD, from what you said about the info being changed and the things I have seen as well, someone is playing games with the records...there is someone, family or friend who is trying to cover all tracks, and who also knows there are people like us researching...Agree??

yes, we really need to confirm this stuff with documents or some kind of something we know is real.  anyone can doctor up things by submitting any info they make up, and I do think it is happening.  I see it happening in the famliy trees.  we can use anything as a "guide" to start looking, but we better get the records to confirm it. 

As in Connie Harris, Melissa Lawlers, and Fred WIlliams???
Coincidence?

this tieken -short thing has roasted my brain...so i tried to look up an elizibeth short and i got the black dialah.....i will not even start to link that to this...(but if some other monkey feels the need to bend their brain i'm all ears.)

I completely forgot the Black Dahlia was Elizabeth Short....
An unsolved atrocious murder form California!

lone..if you take me there i won't be able to sleep for 2-3 days...... ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyWink::  what if there WAS a connection?? ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyTongue:: ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyConfused::

oh really?  hmmm, now you sound like me ::MonkeyDevil::

but I am interested in how that came up.  what does the name elizabeth short have to do with black daliah? how did you get there and I will do the same and go look

oh, hmm yes, I never really looked at the black dahiah case even though so many asked me too.  gee so her name is elizabeth short.  how "funny"(not laughing) is that.   ::MonkeyShocked::

well marylin tieken would be connected to timothy lawless family, so don't know how that would take us to the cantu case but I will go read up on the black dahlia today.  I read about it a long time ago, but never really studied it.  so I will go look, see what else might be in that case.

Fascinating Captain!!!
*Spoken in my best Spock imitation*

i didn't meant to give you monkeys the brain-strain but i'm tryin' to get the 'short' connection...liz short was murdered in the 30's? 40's?   but somehow tieken got the short name and WHY???

For those monkeys interested in Elizabeth Short - Black Dahlia...
Snipped:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dahlia_suspects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dahlia_suspects)
Black Dahlia suspects

(http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/newshound4ever/Black_Dahlia_Mugshot.jpg)
Mug shot by Santa Barbara police, after her arrest for underage drinking, September 23, 1943.
Born    29 July 1924(1924-07-29)
Hyde Park, Massachusetts, U.S.
Died    ca. 15 January 1947 (aged 22)
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
Occupation    Waitress
Parents    Cleo Short and Phoebe Mae Sawyer


Many suspects have been proposed as the unidentified killer of Elizabeth Short, nicknamed the "Black Dahlia", in 1947. Many theories have been advanced, but none have been found to be completely persuasive by experts, and some are not taken seriously at all.

The murder investigation by the LAPD was the largest since the murder of Marion Parker in 1927, and involved hundreds of officers borrowed from other law enforcement agencies. Sensational and sometimes inaccurate press coverage, as well as the nature of the crime, focused intense public attention on the case. As the case continues to command public attention, many more people have been proposed as Short's killer, much like London's Jack the Ripper murders.

Original suspects

Because of the complexity of the case, the original investigators treated every person who knew Elizabeth Short as a suspect who had to be eliminated. Hundreds of people were considered suspects and thousands were interviewed by police.

About 60 people confessed to the murder, mostly men but including a few women.[1] However 22 people were considered to be viable suspects by the Los Angeles District Attorney.[2][3]

 The 22 District Attorney suspects

   1. Carl Balsiger
   2. C. Welsh
   3. Sergeant “Chuck” (name unknown)
   4. John D. Wade
   5. Joe Scalis
   6. James Nimmo
   7. Maurice Clement
   8. A Chicago police officer
   9. Salvador Torres Vera
  10. Dr George Hodel
  11. Marvin Margolis
  12. Glenn Wolf
  13. Michael Anthony Otero
  14. George Bacos
  15. Francis Campbell
  16. "Queer Woman Surgeon"
  17. Dr Paul DeGaston
  18. Dr A. E. Brix
  19. Dr M. M. Schwartz
  20. Dr Artnur McGinnis Faught
  21. Dr Patrick S. O’Reilly
  22. Mark Hansen
  23. Jacob Fisk

Current Suspects

While some of the original 22 suspects were discounted, new ones have arisen. At present the following suspects are discussed by various authors and experts:

Walter Bayley
Norman Chandler
Leslie Dillon
Joseph A. Dumais
Mark Hansen
George Hodel
George Knowlton
Robert M. "Red" Manley
Patrick S. O'Reilly
Jack Anderson Wilson (a.k.a. Arnold Smith)

Female suspects

Although the vast majority of suspects in the case were male, authorities did not rule out the possibility of a female killer. One theory held that, because Short had checked her baggage, including her clothing and cosmetics, a week before she died, she must have been staying with another woman (who presumably would have lent Short the essentials) during the intervening time. Another theory was that the assailant bisected Short's body because he or she was not strong enough to move it in one piece. One of the first people to confess to the murder was a WAC sergeant stationed in San Diego. Authorities took the confession seriously enough to investigate and found it groundless. [20] Another suspect is referred to simply as "Queer Woman Surgeon" in the Los Angeles district attorney's files on the case. Newspaper stories at the time implied that Short was a lesbian or bisexual, but the district attorney files state bluntly that Short "had no use for queers".

Famous Suspects

Woody Guthrie
Orson Welles

well I did a very quick read-up on that case, scanning for any "matching clues" to anything.  only thing I see is that her father lived in vallejo at one time before they moved to los angeles.  he was working at mare island naval base. 

so that intersts me, but I didn't see anything else right off. 

there is always the chance marylin tieken, gary d lawless has a connection to vallejo.  it is just an off-the-wall "possibility" I have wondered about.  Marylin elizabeth tieken/ short would have been about 7 yrs old when the BD died.  she might have grown up hearing about the case.  gary d lawless would have been about 11... maybe they read about it by the time they were married and it was some kind of joke to them that she married under that name.  or maybe it was more than that, maybe he told her to use that name?  who knows  ::MonkeyHaHa::

but I will just go on with the cantu case and keep this info in my mind...

From America's Most Wanted:
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=40390 (http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=40390)

For years, the LAPD would follow every lead and question everyone who knew Elizabeth Short.  After Robert Manley's alibi checked out and he passed a polygraph test, police looked at everyone from surgeons to the nightclub owner Mark Hansen, who had once rented a room to Short.

While cranks and confessions poured in to newspapers and to law enforcement, police believed that the killer mailed a letter containing Short's purse contents to a Los Angeles newspaper days after her body was found.

While every lead and every suspect was checked out, nothing conclusive ever came from the murder investigation.  However, recently LAPD Detective Brian Carr and LA Times reporter Larry Harnisch believe that they may have stumbled upon a new lead in the Black Dahlia investigation.

Harnisch's research revealed a major clue found on a marriage document.  The document included an address one block south of the vacant lot where The Black Dahlia was found.  The man living at the address was a surgeon named Dr. Walter Bayley.

Bayley's daughter was a friend of Elizabeth Short's sister Virginia and brother-in-law Adrian, and had served as the matron of honor at their wedding.  Harnisch now had a suspect with proximity to the crime, a personal link to Short, and a reputation for being a gifted surgeon who could easily have enacted the gruesome surgical-like murder.

Harnisch claims that the doctor had begun acting erratically due to a degenerative brain disease which would not be diagnosed until after his death.  Bayley also had a mistress who ultimately received his estate instead of his wife.  According to Harnisch, Bayley's widow always felt that her husband was being blackmailed by the mistress with some deep, dark secret.

Harnisch believes that Bayley's deteriorating mental condition may have also made him prone to violence.

LAPD Detective Brian Carr agrees that Bayley is a possible suspect but also hopes that  DNA evidence can help break the Dahlia case.  Carr believes that a letter believed to have been sent by the killer contains trace DNA evidence in the form of the killer's saliva used to close the envelope.  That trace evidence could be used to name the killer given the recent advances in DNA testing.  The only problem is that the envelope and letter have gone missing from an evidence locker.  Cops believe someone took them as a souvenir.

the alice's restaurant singer?  hippy poet?  two's a protest 3's a movement guy???  Really??? 

Woody Guthrie

Ya made me think of our Gary the Poet Lawless for a moment!!!! hehehehe
From Wiki....

Woody Guthrie

The folk singer was one of the many suspects in the murder, according to the Los Angeles County district attorney's files and Ramblin' Man: The Life and Times of Woody Guthrie written by Ed Cray and published in 2004 by W.W. Norton. According to Cray, Guthrie drew police attention due to some sexually explicit letters and tabloid clippings he sent to a Northern California woman with whom he was smitten. The mailings disturbed their recipient so much that she showed them to her sister in Los Angeles, who contacted the police. Guthrie was quickly cleared of involvement in the murder, but various authorities attempted to prosecute him, with minor success, on charges related to sending prohibited materials through the mail.

arlo??  his son??

yesterday i waited on a guy with the last name of Dobson..im in ar at for a minuet almost asked him, are you related to ...decited it was not for the best...the Sutton/Lawless line has me worried 'cause my moms maiden name is Sutton..

Watcha mean Mama???
Sometimes I'm a lil slow on the uptake... ::MonkeyHaHa::

not to worry -- one of the SOs look a little like my cousin's husband.  Thank goodness I live far away hehe

i believe Arlo (?_ Arloe?) Gunthery is Woodie Gunthery's son.  he was a folk singer in the '60s & '70s

I fear I will pop onto this thread one day and low and behold *I* am related to MH! Ever hear of 6 degrees of separation?

 

don't worry...with as many different names these folks go under there is either only 12 real lawless' or we're all related to them.....we can just branch out our line. ::MonkeyTongue:: ::MonkeyHaHa::