Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

I am starting this thread to put all my research on any weirdos connected to the churches or strange things going on in the community.  I realize this is a bizarre and "touchy" subject, and I do not want to clutter up the main threads with research on a topic which most people will never believe is going on. 
So everything I look up on this subject I will put here as reference so I am not overwhelming the main thread.  ::MonkeyCool::

Hello everyone! 

DD..it's me ;)  I finally made it! ::cartwheel::

I will help research as much as I can!

O/T:  DD and I go way back.  I was always bugging DD to "look" at new cases.  DD is one of the best when it comes to tearing apart a case.  Great work as usual DD.

WELCOME and yes I see that DD is one of the best  ::MonkeyCool::

omg I am so glad you are here Tipper.  You know how I am about this stuff and thank GOD someone who knows I am not nuts  ::MonkeyDevil::

yes, PLEASE help me research this case, its a REALLY messed up one. 

I hope this ok to post here...about the Northwest Life Center in Elma.
I found this web site while looking for the church.I thought this was an interesting comment made by one of the member/s.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://democard.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/northwest-life-center1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://democard.wordpress.com/&usg=__1Op2fTalVeKlg-A91ccgAbSwNEo=&h=478&w=344&sz=68&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=3KgA9o6JKcp6HM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNorthwest%2BLife%2BCenter%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Northwest Life Center•May 23, 2009 • Leave a Comment
As I pulled into Elma, Washington I knew I had to get out and meet some of the people that made this town so cool. It just has a great vibe to it, kind of friendly and relaxed. Wouldn’t you know it, the first parking place I find is right in front of the Northwest Life Center, and they are open with free food!

I introduced myself, and when asked, told them that I was a photographer that was traveling through Washington to meet great people and get to know them and take their photos. There were several in the room that politely asked me not to photograph them, mumbling that it wouldn’t be good for the law to know where they are. Isn’t that interesting? My mind was drawn to the stories in the bible of how Jesus spent time with the common people, the sinners of the world. It touched my heart to be in such a place, and to feel accepted and welcome. A very cool thing indeed.

The stars of the show had to be Dick and Jerlean. She had cooked a couple of crock pot dishes to bring (the sign says “snacks” the reality was it was a full blown pot-luck lunch. I had just eaten sadly, so I didn’t eat, but it smelled great!) and Dick was the entertainment.

more at the link above......

On this topic.

I have information there were some very weird goings-on in the McCleary area.  It didn't start out that way and at first I did not notice anything particularly telling about anything weird.  I did think hmm Lindsey joins myspace on a NEW myspace account Twilight Freak and posts at 4:04am in the morning on May 29 that she is happy. By 5:48 in the morning on May 29th her mood is scared and she says she is having nightmares and feels something bad is going to happen.
Question#1 why is she up at 4am posting on myspace
Question #2 why did she join up on a NEW myspace account, she already had the Disturbed account
Question #3 why does she go from happy to scared at early AM within 1 hr 44 minutes.

she is stating she has been having nightmares, she feels something bad is going to happen, is she not sleeping because of the scary nightmares and is this why she is up so early in the morning?  but why then is she happy at 4:04, and scared at 5:48.  What changed, where is she posting this from?  was she online with someone and they scared her??  was someone where she was at that morning and they scared her.  What caused it, and what had been making her have scarey nightmares? 


 

EXCELLENT FIND,!!!!
Confirmation from the horses mouth that there are people there who would not want the law to know where they are.  so... they help to hide criminals??

ooops above post repeated sorry...

Lindsey's mom is in the news quoted as saying Lindsey is afraid of the dark and will not go outside during the "witching hours".  Now people write this off as Lindsey reads books and is interested in Twilight etc so this is how she learns of the "witching hours".  Well there are "Witching hours" and then there are "Witching Hours.  Is it possible Lindsey had some kind of contact with people who "understand" the "deep" things of the "witching hours"? 

Another girl on myspace is also posting she is feeling like something bad is going to happen.  This person links up to the friends of Lindsey.  So there is some sort of connection.

I found one reference to one person in McCleary wanting to join some Meet-up groups for the occult, but that is normal as far as people doing that, so that did not set off any alarms

Now maybe it is all NOTHING, but these were the few things that jumped out at me at the beginning of the case, however, as I kept researching I was not finding any of the basic tell tell signs of anything weird going on.  But I kept it in mind and went on looking for your normal case stuff.

Then I got more info and started talking to a few locals and BLAM... here it comes, there "IS" weird stuff going on in the McCleary area

I was looking at michael feeser the sex offender who lives up on elma hicklin road north of Mccleary, just north of the Jim Mullin Creek that is behind the Simpson Mill plant.  A local has told me this is where Mullin Creek is.  All it says on the map is FORKS, But I am told this is Jim Mullin Creek.  I am also told the kids call it "Tweaker's Creek". 

Well, the sex offender Michael Feeser is living not too far from there.  So I am researching him and looking at his family to see who they are etc.  Madigabe then gets a message through klaasend that one of the people I am looking for(george Woodard) is in fact a child sex offender in Lewis County.  Now michael feeser is listed with him and a stacy feeser aka stacy woodard.  So I think, hmm two sex offenders together.  So I start digging more on Micheal Feeser and find out from another local a body was found up there.  so then we find that dwight feeser, relative of Michael feeser has shot and killed brian sheets at michael feeser's home.  (all of this is posted on the main threads here)

So then a local contacts me and says Michael feeser is involved in satanism and sacrificing.  so at this point I think okay here we go I better check this out.  So then I find out through someone else that the uncle of Michael feeser is living at the church in elma, (that he knows george woodard) and he is an x satanist and was raised in ritual sexual abuse.  Now I check around and find he is preaching at the church where he is living.

Then I find out that lindsey was seen at this church 3 weeks before she disappears.

Then I find out that Josh has went there several times.

by now I am really going HMMMM

so I am thinking HMMM and then madibabe states there are 2 churches in elma she would never allow her kids to go to, that her mother had went with her daughter to that church and left and came and told madibabe there are 20 something drug users in there, some of them not clean, some high on drugs at the service, and there are people there her mother knows through her being a drug counselor, and there are some in there involved in "things which go further than any one should think about" or something to that affect.  the post is over on the main thread. 

So now I know something worse than drugs are going on with the people at that church.  and something you should not even have to imagine.  so... there is more.  But for now that is a little run down WHY I am going to dig into this church, the people there and see who is connected to the weird stuff going on.

I am told there were altars set up in the woods with bones etc.  I am told there is a mountain with a pentagram.  I am told every year at winter soltice they use a girl in their rituals.  you will have to study this stuff to understand more about this stuff, but I have looked at this stuff a lot so I understand what this is about.

I am told that micheal feeser the sex offender is one of the persons who had the altar out on a creek.

NOW... is all this stuff true or are peole making this stuff up?  I don't know, but "IF" it is true someone needs to check this stuff out.  I hope the feds would not just boo-ha-ha this and ignore it.

DD...here we go again and I know -YOU KNOW- what I mean:(

Gosh....it never ends.

I really had my doubts this was one of those cases, I looked and looked and just couldn't figure out anything.  the dogs sent up a HUGE red flag for me and the fact the feds are saying THERE ARE NO LEADS etc, and they were saying there was no dog scent.  another common thing to happen in these cases. 

I am inbetween my home chores right now, but when I finish I will get on here and dig dig dig. 

I really think we should pay attention to the FIRE that happened and start looking for the places/names/locations that "fit" this kind of stuff. 

DD...what bothers me the most; no one heard this little girl scream or struggle to get away from some "stranger".  I think she was approached by a familiar face....probably offered a ride home....someone cruising the area....

Tipper...

can you please search myspace and facebook for anything FEESER/WOODARD/ROUNDTREE

I know you are good at this, and you know I do not get on those sites.

as you know I normally get something right off, but in this case I didn't. the only thing I kept noticing was a gravel pit to the west of McCleary.  And every time I would look at the map, there would be that dang gravel pit, but nothing more.  perhaps someone worked there I thought but I could not even figure that out.  But I mentioned this gravel pit to a local and they told me it is a major party place.  So I need to figure out what is up with that gravel pit as well.

for anyone who wants to help with this, here is where I am starting

leta's name makes it easier to figure out which william roundtree you are looking at, but who I am actually interested in is William Jay Roundtree.  But.. I want to also know about the people he is connected to.  He is the uncle of Michael David Feeser the sex offender on Elma Hicklin Rd McCleary. 
 
ROUNDTREE, LETA ANN (Age 41)
 
 Associated names:
 
 ROUNDTREE,  L


HERMISTON, OR
STANFIELD, OR
HEPPNER, OR
BREMERTON, WA
PORT ORCHARD, WA

Possible Relatives:
 
ROUNDTREE, JAMES
ROUNDTREE, WILLIAM JAY (Age 37)
 
Possible Roommates / Associates:
 
STAMM, CARRIE ANNE (Age 42)
LUCAS, KELLY ANNE (Age 42)
HENDERSON, PEGGY (Age 59)
HENDERSON, DAWN MARIE (Age 46)
MURRAY, JASON WILLIAM (Age 34)
KELLEY, CHARLES DANIEL (Age 37)
GEORGE, HEATHER M (Age 26)
BARNETT, TAMARRA EILEEN (Age 48)
BARNETT, JAMES LELAND (Age 30)
COLBRAY, JENNIE
BARNES, KIRSTEN

In all fairness it is assumed William Jay Roundtree has changed his ways and now is a Christian.  He is living and preaching at the church in Elma. 
Northwest Life Center
 215 N. 3rd street
Elma, Wa   

I want to know who he use to be connected with.  I doubt all of those people changed their ways.

I also have been told that this church has recently lost half the congregation.  I do not know why but you have to wonder

to my friend I cannot find but I know you are out there and I know you use to read here.
"I never gave you the long. lat. therefore you never gave me the info. New News" please contact me. my IM is not working you will have to email me.
please come help on this case. 
keysring@yahoo.com

While I was looking into the forest fire I came across this information:  May be helpful?  It mentions there is almost no police presence in the forest...good place to do things you don't want people to know about.

  Tension continues in Capitol Forest
Outdoors: Some worry use of guns a risk to others
JOHN DODGE; The Olympian | • Published July 13, 2009

Comments (59)  Recommend (12) Photos

 
Reckless and destructive discharge of firearms continues to plague the Capitol State Forest, recreational users and neighbors say.

In the past three weeks, vandals have peppered four new signs installed in the forest with bullets and shotgun pellets. The cost to replace the signs is pegged at about $1,000, said Phil Wolff, a state Department of Natural Resources recreation manager assigned to the Olympia-area forest.

In tough budget times, the vandalism is especially troubling, Wolff said.

“It’s money that could be used to pump an outhouse, replace a couple of rotten picnic tables, repair four campground fire rings or grade a campground parking area,” he said.

Damage to signs from firearms is nothing new in a forest where recreational target shooting is legal and hunting is widely accepted.

But in a 100,000-acre working forest that hosts about 100,000 visitors a year, conflicts among the various user groups can and do arise.

Mountain bicyclists, horseback riders, motorcyclists, hunters, hikers, campers and target shooters flock to the forest, which has 180 miles of trails evenly split between motorized and non-motorized use.

The hunting and target shooting is dispersed throughout the forest, although target shooting is supposed to be at manufactured targets placed against earthen backstops no closer than 500 feet from a campground, structure or residence and not on, down, next to or across roads and trails, according to recent rules developed by DNR.

Shooters also are supposed to pick up their shell casings, ammunition packaging and other debris.

Some question whether that is enough to make the forest safe for everyone.

“Sometimes you hear gunshots from 50 feet away,” said John Kramer, a Capitol Forest mountain biker and member of the volunteer group Friends of Capitol Forest. “Multiple riders have been pinned down by fire from rifles, semi-automatic weapons and handguns.”
Dave Snyder, another Friends of Capitol Forest member and a nearby resident, said he enjoys riding his mountain bike in the forest, as well as target shooting.

“Safe shooting can exist in the forest,” he said.

“I don’t have an issue with hunting,” said Capitol State Forest neighbor Marshall Oatman. “But it’s like a free-for-all up here with the random shooting. Nothing short of an outright ban is going to work. What are we waiting for? A stray bullet to hit a biker?”

DNR officials shudder at that thought as they walk a fine line, trying to accommodate all of the users of the Capitol State Forest and their other holdings across the state.

“This is a big emerging issue statewide; it’s high on our radar screen,” DNR spokeswoman Jane Chavey said. “With increased public-access closures on private forestlands, we’ve become the last spot in the lowlands.”

With suburban and rural population growth, the Capitol State Forest no longer is the remote place it once was.

And amid tough economic times and high fuel prices, the public is turning more and more to state lands for recreation closer to home, said Larry Raedel, chief of law enforcement services for DNR.

Raedel has two officers working in the Pacific Cascade Region of DNR, which takes in much of Southwest Washington, including the Capitol State Forest.

“We’re spread pretty thin,” he said. “We really rely on the public to be our eyes and ears in the woods.”

Formed four years ago, Friends of Capitol Forest has helped clean up garbage dumped in the forest, deterred vandalism by making parking areas more secure and placed giant stumps in areas where illegal off-road access has developed.

“The forest is pretty clean right now,” Snyder said as he surveyed an older dump site on a rutted trail littered with shotgun shells. “If we can keep it cleaned up, there will be less incentive for people to dump.”

The forest also escaped a recent round of DNR budget cuts to the agency’s recreational program, which lost 50 percent of its funding in the 2009 state budget.

But the forest is not immune to service cuts later in the two-year budget cycle, Wolff said.

“In tight budget times, we certainly don’t need vandalism,” he said.

John Dodge: 360-754-5444

jdodge@theolympian.com

~~~~~~~~  Here's a comment from the article
Recommend (1) Report abuse
 iKnow wrote on 07/14/2009 05:31:55 AM: There are a lot of holes in the story that further the agenda of those who want to stop the legal use of firearms.
As someone who is in the CF 3 days a week, I can say there are a ton of slobs out there. The shooting pit is a safety hazard and unsafe target shooting needs to stop, but the safe use of firearms and hunting in the CF can and should continue.
Many people would be surprised at how many deer, elk, bear and cougar are in this small piece of "paradise". I say paradise as there are not many places this close to our capitol that offer such a diverse opportunity for outdoor activity such as photography, hiking and hunting.
The dumping of garbage is rampant and the statement by FOCF is wrong, the forest is not clean.
Who is doing the shooting and vandalism? Your kids, friends and neighbors. Make sure you talk to them about firearm safety and teach awareness of other user groups. Once the guns are gone they will go after the "noisy, disruptive vehicles.
 

all that shooting in the forest sounds to me like someone is trying to scare them out of there; not hunting.  you don't randomly start shooting at something if you can't see the animal you are shooting at, so this tells me this is not hunters.  thanks for the article hmmm so why are peole trying to scare someoe out of the forest?
doing something they want no one to know about?
growing crops?
cooking meth?
having rituals?

some info from a local.  I will take out anything that would identify this person


 i think they're kind of pentecostal, they claim no denomination.  but there's a lot of movement within churches, they take in people and then you have the speakers who go from place to place.  lately they're into this kind of a sensuality thing that's hard to explain.  these days everyone thinks it's the armageddon and it's their job to pray it in so to speak.  there's this guy todd bentley that they all just love, who cheated on his wife with an intern of course, he likes to kick people to heal them and yells bam a lot.  very entertaining, but I can't let my kids go to this place  they preacher is related to the johnson family who are all on heroin, crack, methadone, big family too.   washington's not a very big state.  tacoma is a hell hole

Sandra and now Lindesy??  weird churches?  weirdo missionary who loves the stars and is also a forest ranger??  does anybody do numerology?  does anybody know any 'special' years that would have rituals attached to them?   ::MonkeyConfused::

from another local

they were handing out this prayer was like God forgive me for any curses i may have prayed this week against anyone, and various other oddness

they were praying and so called fasting that some person's cancer would hop out and jump on some "bad" people

one day they had a boxing match at church, with a ring and everything, and some teenager got knocked out

the youth groups are a big deal, they go over the top to get kids in, all of them.  plus most kids are allowed to go and they walk to them in groups like club-hopping

 ::MonkeyEek::

a lot of the cases I have worked on like this have a very strange system of numerology, it is not inline with the traditional numerology.  I have not had time yet to look at enough things to determine if this lines up with that.  but I am going to.  but by all means if someone wants to use traditional numberology to see if they can determine anything, do it.

I find they usually use a combination of astrology(ancient stuff, not the tradition stuff today)/numeroloy/biblical scripture/and they play on "words".  They also are very Cryptic. 

DD..do you know how many townspeople are involved in these 'churches'?  is most of the town involved?   ::MonkeyEek::

I've put a map of the trails in Capitol Forest in the Maps and Pictures thread. The forest fire was started 1/2 mile away from Fall Creek Campground.  It's right in the middle of the map.

WTH  ::MonkeyEek::

I really don't know but I am told that all the kids from McCleary and Elma all go back and for and they can right the bus back and for also.  I know who took josh to that church to begin with, but I won't post the name.  But lindsey's family knows so they can turn that over to the police if they want to.  I am sure they must have?  but maybe they don't realize what goes on a some churches. 

somewhere on the threads I have a topo map of the area too, there are two creeks there if I remember right. oh wow, two creeks, oh I better go look at that again.

anyone see a place where two creeks/rivers join each other?  if so, please let me know where that is at. 

okay my home chorse are done for the day so I am going to hop right into this mess, dig and post

do you know if Lindsey ever went??  i would think it odd if 'all the kids' went but she did/had not....then she disappears...

I have been looking at this post trying to dig and WOW did I find something disturbing in Port Orchard.  No way of knowing if these are connected as they are Juvies however 11 charges in 2 years and the one brother was 14 when he raped?  This was back in 91 so they would now be 34 and 32 years old .

Brothers Accused In Kidnapping, Rape Have Troubled Past -- Port Orchard Teens Charged 11 Times In Less Than Two Years
By Mike Burgess

The alleged kidnapping and rape of a waitress at gunpoint this week is only the latest criminal charge against two Port Orchard brothers, ages 14 and 16.

In less than two years, the youths have been charged in connection with at least 11 criminal acts in Kitsap and King counties, according to a prosecutor and Juvenile Court records.

In fact, the older brother was in a Kitsap County court on a vehicle prowl and theft charge just hours before the abduction of the 35-year-old Port Orchard woman, according to court officials. In addition, the youth was supposed to appear in King County Juvenile Court yesterday on an assault charge.

In the assault on the waitress, the youths have been charged with first-degree rape, second-degree kidnapping and auto theft. They are accused of abducting her near a Port Orchard cafe and raping her.

"The case, in my opinion is nothing more than a cold-blooded act," said Jan Myers, a Port Orchard police detective. "Neither one of them has expressed any remorse."

During the 4 1/2-hour ordeal, police say, the brothers also forced the woman to buy them beer and cigarettes. And in a strange twist, an apparent argument about who should drive the woman's car left the older brother on the shoulder of Highway 16 near Federal Way.

Kitsap County Superior Court Commissioner Leonard Costello yesterday ordered the youths to be held at the Kitsap County Youth Service Center until Monday. It is to be determined by that day if they should be tried as adults, said Bob Naon, a Kitsap County deputy prosecutor.

Members of the boys' family said during interviews last night that despite the youths' record, family members doubt they could have committed Monday's crimes.

"They're basically good kids," said a sister, who has custody of them because of an injury their mother suffered a few years ago. "Basically they're normal teenage boys."

The boys' parents are divorced.

The sister said family members believe that if the boys did commit the crimes, they must have been drinking or on drugs. She said the boys reportedly drank a fifth of vodka before the alleged abduction and that the older brother had been drinking when he was recently arrested in connection with the theft of items from a vehicle.

She said the older brother works selling balloons at a Seattle store and her younger brother attends middle school and works at a restaurant.

According to court records, the brothers have been charged with a number of offenses including trespassing, burglary, theft, and malicious mischief and assault.

Last year, for example, the 14-year-old was charged with committing criminal acts at least once a month for a six-month period. Beginning in March, he was charged with committing malicious mischief, followed by charges of third-degree theft, second-degree burglary, failure to comply with requirements of previous sentencing, fourth-degree assault and criminal trespassing.

Several of the charges were dismissed after the boy agreed to receive counseling.

In 1989, the older brother was charged with assaulting their mother, according to court documents. Last year, the boy was charged with assaulting a man.

The attack on the Port Orchard woman began late Monday night. According to Port Orchard police, the youths - armed with a BB gun that looked like a .45-caliber handgun - were lurking near a city parking lot.

"The plan was to rob someone; the first person who came along," Detective Myers said.

Port Orchard Police Chief Joe Mathews said when the youths approached the woman, one of them allegedly stuck the weapon in her face and told her they would kill her. They then told her to drive toward Seattle.

Myers said the youths told police they found the weapon about two hours before the kidnapping. Police believe that was when they came up with the plot to commit a robbery.

Mathews said somewhere between Purdy and Gig Harbor, the boys ordered the woman to drive off Highway 16 onto a back road and to a gravel pit. They raped the woman and then made her drive to a convenience store. Myers said they forced the woman to buy them cigarettes and two 40-ounce bottles of beer.

They then forced her to continue driving. Police believe it was about that time that the brothers argued about driving and they stopped so the older brother could relieve himself. The 14-year-old made the victim drive off.

The younger brother then raped her again before dropping her off near the cafe where the ordeal began, police said. The woman called police about 2:30 a.m. Tuesday. Acting on her description of the suspects, an officer arrested the younger brother a few hours later.

The older brother surrendered to King County police Tuesday afternoon after he called Port Orchard posing as his brother and asked if there was a warrant out for his arrest. Police persuaded him to give up.

Myers said he was surprised by how the boys dealt with police during interviews.

"They certainly were familiar with officers on the uniform level," Myers said. "They didn't get shook up when they talked to them."

He said the older brother calmly talked to police about part of his involvement. However, the other brother took a different tack.

"The 14-year-old refused to talk to me," Myers said. "He had a big- deal attitude, like it was no big deal to him."

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19910613&slug=1288798

 :2brickwall:

More on Port Orchard.   Not found what this guys name is yet:

Man accused of trying to kidnap 14-year-old Port Orchard girl
Saturday, September 25, 2004 - Page updated at 12:00 A.M.

Sheriff's deputies arrested a 21-year-old Kitsap County man after he allegedly tried to abduct a 14-year-old girl yesterday morning outside Port Orchard.
The man was booked into Kitsap County Jail on suspicion of one count of attempted kidnapping, six counts of luring a minor and one count of fourth-degree assault. Bail was set at $50,000.

A man in a dark-colored Jeep Cherokee cruised by the 14-year-old and asked her personal questions, deputies said. The girl ignored the man and kept walking, but he stopped the car, got out and grabbed her by the arm, they said. She yelled at him to let her go, and he got back into his car and drove away. The girl reported the man to her junior-high-school counselor, who called the Sheriff's Office.

Authorities believe the suspect tried to lure six other junior-high students about an hour later near a bus stop near Manchester Elementary School.

Deputies say there may be other victims and are asking anyone with information in the case to call 360-337-7111

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002046007_dige25m.html

Could someone please see if this guy is still in jail?

ABDUCTION: Minister to face charges today
Monday, January 10, 1994

When Port Orchard minister Fred Aylward steps into a Kitsap County superior courtroom today, he will be facing new, more serious charges.

Kitsap Prosecutor Dan Clem planned to file firstdegree kidnapping charges against Aylward in connection with the Dec. 29 alleged abduction of his granddaughter, as well as three sexual assault charges.

Clem also plans to ask that Aylward's bail be increased from $200,000 to $500,000. He said Aylward has a past criminal history. He served seven years in prison for bilking senior citizens in Arizona.

Aylward initially was charged here with custodial interference for allegedly taking his 9-year-old granddaughter to California, but the charges now have been upgraded to kidnapping.

Ayward is accused of taking the girl across state lines with the intention to commit a felony. Authorities believe he intended to visit Disneyland with the girl, then move her to Hawaii under a new name.

Ultimately, Sheriff Pat Jones said, they believe he intended to move to India with the girl.

Clem also is filing charges of first-degree child molestation and two counts of rape of a child in the firstdegree. The charges do not name the victim.

Clem said the child molestation charge alleges he fondled a girl under the age of 12 and the other two charges allege he had more explicit sexual contact with her. The incidents occurred over a two-year period, Clem said.

Kitsap County sheriff's detectives traced Aylward to California via credit card and telephone records. They believe he carefully planned the abduction, purchasing plane tickets from a Gig Harbor travel agent Dec. 14. He then rented a car a couple of days before the alleged abduction and had an accomplice, 19-year-old Angela Blees, follow him to North Mason with the girl.

There they allegedly faked an accident with his wife's Firebird and fled to Purdy, where Blees called 911 and reported a car in the water with a man and child drowning inside.

They then allegedly drove to Tacoma, where he dropped off Blees, then on to Portland. From there he and the girl flew to Los Angeles, where he was arrested having dinner in a hotel dining room.

Detectives allegedly found evidence he'd changed his granddaughter's name and obtained a new birth certificate for her.

She was returned to her mother in Port Orchard after his arrest. He then waived extradition and came back to Kitsap County last Friday.

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/1994/Jan/10/abduction-minister-to-face-charges-today/

Photo of Michael Feeser?

(http://)

someone told me lindsey was seen at that church 3 weeks before she went missing.  I don't know if she went there any other times.  I was told that josh did go there several times..

CORRECTING AN ERROR. 

WILLIAM JAY ROUNDTREE IS THE COUSIN  OF MICHAEL DAVID FEESER/SEX OFFENDER
NOT THE UNCLE

sorry about the error

DD,I think it all boils down to these missionary places and churches thinking they can help freaky sexual child abusers.These people cannot be helped.The courts and laws and churches and missionaries treat them like they are alcoholics and drugs abusers and can be helped but that is far from true.There is no rehabilitating perverts.But they keep letting them back on our streets to get our kids.The perverts use,abuse and kill our kids and courts and laws have NO clue what to do about them.......so they set them loose on our kids to be treated like guine pigs.Here is a picture of the missionary/church.

thanks for that pic of the church, Karma, I just woke up and was going to go look for a photo of it, got on here and here you have it  Cool!!! ::MonkeyCool::

does that have an upstairs I wonder.  I was thinking about this as I was asleep.  and the top of this building looks like it could an area big enough to sleep in?  I'll have to try to find out.

I wonder if they are housing people there at times? 

I wish the feds would just go there and ask some questions and see what all is going on there.  that comment in the article saying for that guy not to take photos because some of the people do not want the law to know they are there.  that is so telling.  It's one thing to try to help someone, but when a church or someone in the church is for making sure the people hiding from the law are not exposed, that is just too weird.  do they really want people who are hiding from the law hanging out in their church and around their children, wives, etc?  does not compute.

and then for a local to tell me that half of the congregation has quit going there, then what does that say?  if even the members of the church don't like something going on there, to the point of HALF of them leaving, that tells me something too. 

local told me
 apparently northwest life has cancelled all services except sunday morning for a while until they figure out "what's wrong" (why everyone left).

more info on the church from a local

their doctrine is  IHOP's  (international house of prayer in missouri). 

 they have a 24 prayerathon type thing
 lots of music
 preach bridal paradigm (they think individual Christians are brides of Christ or like the boys at northwest life were told, if they're uncomfortable with that they can be a friend of the groom)


tues and thurs  
 24 hr. prayer where people take turns on a sign up sheet

more info from locals about the church

the people who have left the church did so over a period of time in the last 1-2 months
a group of older ladies left all at once
these ladies were complaining about the "harp and bowl" style singing (freestyle) among other things.

someone has told me
they have stopped some of the church services for a 6 week period

they THINK the services they have stopped are:
Saturday night
Sunday Night
Wednesday Night
AND THE YOUTH GROUP which was on FRIDAY nights
 

so they have stopped the YOUTH GROUP hmmm

sounds like a lot of problems are going on there. 

I also found out another x? satanist is going there.

I wish we knew if wayne watne had any connection to this church also

WTH  ::MonkeyEek::

may 29th 5:48 am lindsey gets scared mood.  she also starts that new myspace that day. 

this is on a friday.  Early am.

does she have a computer at her house? did she make that myspace while at her house? if not, where was she at 4:04 am friday morning to do this?  she was not at the library that is for sure?  was she as a friends that day?  if so, what friend?  why is she up at 4:04 and happy. 

are those times on myspace accurate?

That is just weird, do we know if they have a computer in their home, I'm pretty sure they did, but if not she had to go to a friends house.

I really don't know if they did or not.  well I guess they did, didn't the fbi take the computers? or did they just check the accounts they had.  gee I forget things

She didn’t spend much time watching television but she loved using the computer, including the popular social networking site MySpace and hanging with her friends, according to her family. MySpace.com lists two Lindsey Baums in McCleary with MySpace pages.

what was on the disturbed myspace???  why was it private and why did she feel she needed 2?  one for friends and the other for??  a friend of hers had the password for the disturbed site, i wonder about the other?

i wouldn't think that a style of singing would make half of the church leave, and even if it did why stop the youth group?  could 'harp and bowl' be something else?  did the church just start the new singing style?  if thats what they've always done why get upset now??

Having seen many churches divide, there usually is one or two people who start the ball rolling.  Most of the time, what happens is they end up starting their own church.  Sometimes they begin by renting a storefront or meeting in someone's house.  There are a lot of "preacher" wanna bes who think they can do a better job.  To justify leaving, they begin to find fault with what's happening.  It may be of interest to see if any of the storefronts have recently been rented.
To shut down a youth group indicates to me some very serious problems within.  A guess may be some may have found out what was going on within the youth group that they didn't like/approve of and left.  Those remaining may have gotten scared that their "mission" would be revealed, and thus shut it down.  Just my thoughts.

I have no idea, I just am passing on what I am being told LOL. 

I looked it up,
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:pmGGBpJsetAJ:www.intotruth.org/apostasy/harp-bowl.htm+harp+and+bowl+singing&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

wow you have to go read the link in my above post.  and the locals who are saying these things about the elma church told me the churches doctrine is IHOP out of missouri so this is what the elma church originates from. 

and look at this...this is way back
The home team consisted of Paul Cain, Bob Jones (who was later disciplined for sexual impropriety) and John Paul Jackson with Mike Bickle as host and "interpreter" for some of the weirder dreams and visions. Later the team widened to include a host of other names, today well known in the revival.

Then John Wimber and the Vineyard got involved, Paul Cain having adopted John Wimber as his mentor and spiritual father. In 1990, following public criticism and a hardhitting report prepared by Ernie Gruen, Mike Bickle submitted himself and Grace Ministries to John Wimber and all the fellowships associated with KCF became Vineyards. (Rather like the Toronto Fellowship, KCF were dropped by Vineyard subsequently when their activities became too troublesome.)

Some, including myself, were vainly trying to warn Christians and leaders about the occultic manifestations, false prophecies and Latter-Rain doctrines of the group. However in those days few had even heard of the Latter Rain Movement and they missed the point. Most dismissed the warnings as scaremongering and an overreaction.

What is the IHOP?
IHOP stands for International House of Prayer. Paul Cain used the letters also as an acrostic for the vision of the venture, which was Intercession, Holiness, Offerings and Prophecy.

Here is one official description of the work:

"The International House of Prayer is a 24-hours a day, citywide, worship and warfare, inter-denominational prayer ministry serving the body of Christ. This ministry is modeled after the tabernacle of David with singers and musicians being released to lead corporate intercession and worship 24-hours a day. This is an effective method for the churches in the county to come together and DWELL in unity so that God can unlock His commanded blessing. ...The Word of God Declares "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations" Mark 11:17. ... This House of Prayer for All Nations ministry includes continuous praise and prayer dethroning the principalities and power over a region declaring Gods sovereignty. This is in the spirit of Revelation 4-5 “Harp & Bowl” worship and warfare prayer gatherings, the harp representing praise and the bowl representing the prayers of the saints which is at the heart of David’s Tabernacle."

Since dominion and governmental rule is expected (accomplished by continual praise and worship in the Harp and Bowl model) there is an element of judgement upon sinners and the rebellious who fail to conform to this Davidic Rule. This means that Christians today are anticipating their role as judges!

When we are releasing the ministry of the harp - worship and praise to the King of the Kingdom; and the ministry of the bowls - prayers from the saints for His kingdom to come and His will to be done; we then see His rule as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah begin to happen in and through his people. We have known Jesus as the Lamb of God, our Savior, but soon we will see Him manifested as a Lion, a ferocious Warrior and the King and Judge of all the earth. ... He is about to be revealed as Ruler and Judge. With that revelation will also come the realization that the last-days church is being called with Him and through Him into that same role of ruler and judge...

I had read about the cult group some time ago.  Just like all of them, they pluck scripture to fit their agenda and will condemn any who question.  Quite frankly, I am still convinced that some type of cult is involved with Sandra Cantu.  When I get back to putting together other's research, I am confident there will be a true "revelation."  I thank you again DD and others for your persistent work.  My prayer is that it opens some people's minds to "look" and not just see.

okay without getting into a bunch of doctrine debate, what I see as the basis of this belief is they are taking biblical scripture and applying it to the present time and applying it to themselves, in other words if this were a movie script they are becoming the actors and living the history written in the bible. 

now start doing this while you are still on drugs and thinking you are to rule and judge the sinners etc, you can have a real mess going on. add a couple or several x? satanists in the mix and being the one preaching, after only 4 years of a lifetime of satanism, and yes, you can have a real mess going on. 

From what I see them believing they think they are taking over the region they are in and they are to judge and rule over it. 

add to that they are praying curses on people and during "healing" they are saying for cancer to jump out of someone and on to the "bad" people.  then it would be easy for someone on drugs within that congregation to really misinterpret or misunderstand what they should or should not be doing.  if they are the RULERS of the region around them and they are judging the "sinners" they could get a warped sense of who is the "bad" peole and who needs to be done what to them. 

you put some whackjob in the midst of this kind of doctrine and you can have someone out there "judging" people in the community and carrying out whatever they believe to be appropriate in the name of God.  It happens all the time.  I can see why some of the older ladies might want out of there.  not so much the harp and bowl "singing' but the "power trip" behind it.  I wonder when and how it became such a mess, and why is an x satanist of 4 years the one preaching the sermon ad teaching the people?  not that people do not change they certainnly do, but I can see where a lot of the old timers might not like that at all.  and I can also see why people do not want their kids in that church.  and here the whole communnity is allowing there kids to go to that youth group probably thinking  oh they are going to church, no harm i that.

add in the fact they have people there hiding from the law, peole still on drugs, and who knows what else. 

i don't go to church and the whole 'bride of christ' when taken to a level in a 'non-deno' church screams virgin ritual to me....but that is JMO

for cryin' out loud they named they're doctrine after a pancake house....as much as i love pancake's ....come on ::MonkeyEek::

so when does the change occur???  i love the debble, now i love god.... 
really who does that ...sorry what SANE person does that?  this church seems fubar and any 'ex-satinest' who would have a 'moment' and realize that they are 'wrong' seems like a very disturbed person all the way around....to pray on peoples after-lives is a very sick thing to do....so many get 'caught up'  ::MonkeyConfused::

I know what you are saying mamacrazy, see how crazy people could become.  If someone does not really know what the Bible is about and they walk out of the occult or they are on drugs or both and they are following someone who is picking and choosing scripture our of the old testament history of the early rulers and then setting that up in present day life and having people follow now what is written about then, you can see what a mess.  have people kicking people and "Bamming" then for "healing" ( ::MonkeyEek::) and you want kids in there watching this mess.  no wonder kids in the community are scared!!! 

but the thing is, we can use this to understand how some whackjob might think.  "IF" the whackjob happens to be in that church then this gives us a good idea what they are taught and following.  we look on the biblical map for the tabernacle.  we already know the church there in elma is "THEIR" tabernacle.  so we have a place to start.  so we get out both maps.  we then take whatever is on the biblical map and look for it on the map of the area around elma.  Then we apply the scripture to the elma area, and we will find the location of things they are re-creating. 

So I will try to do that.

omg now I sound like the whackjob.  I can just about "hear" people on the board saying/  "and DD thinks THEY are nuts?   ::MonkeyDevil::

i am in awe  :2notworthy: :2notworthy:......you are ONE SMART MONKEY!!!

nope..not here anyway,  i've met enough crack-pots in my time..your not one of them ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyAngel::

Elma Alliance Church
315 N 3rd St, Elma, WA 98541

Contact Phonexxxxxxxx
URL (web address): 
Business Category: Religious Organization in Elma, WA
Industry (SIC): Religious Organizations

Business Information
This company profile is for the private company Elma Alliance Church , located in Elma, WA. Elma Alliance Church's line of business is religious organization.
Company Name: Elma Alliance Church
Address: 315 N 3rd St, Elma, WA 98541

Alt Business Name: 
Location Type: Single Location
Est. Annual Sales: $125,000 
Est. # of Employees: 1 
Est. Empl. at Loc.: 1 
Year Started: 1937 
State of Incorp: 
SIC #Code: 8661 
Contact's Name: Gary Anderson 
Contact's Title: Pastor
NAICS: Religious Organizations

DD, you made me laugh, thanks!  In some ways, nothing personal, I wish you were the whackjob, but then we wouldn't even be here.  It's like queen for a day mentality.  Start a church, you be the bishop, I'll be the popette, etc.

Is that church a 501(3)(c) as it says it is "private."

what does that mean that it is 'private'?

i don't understand this 'sales'??  its a church right??  is that income from church-go'ers' or what ???  does this have anything to do with the private status??   ::MonkeyConfused::

Psalm 76:2 and Psalm 9:11 says that Zion is God's dwelling place.  In Psalm 2 we see that God puts His king in Zion.  Zion was where where the Tabernacle of David was.  When King David set up the tabernacle with the ark of the covenant he assigned Levites to minister unto the Lord 24 hours per day

so we know we are in Zion where the tabernacle is at. 

so lets look at elma and consider it zion there where the church is.

but then two we have to wonder how many in this church are actually understanding Zion on another level, that of the stars.  Remember we have wayne watne the missionary who is very much into the stars.  So wayne watne's Zion might actually be the stars/zodiac.  So are these in elma who are in this church who were once satanist/occult, are they looking at the parallel and seeing Zion in the stars/zodiac.  that might very well be.  so we have to keep that in mind alsoo.

we know that zion is in the far north.  so we keep that in mind also

whoa, year started 1937?  hmm this is the same address as the name of the other church, this must be the mother church they are under?  I am not sure how that is working.  so who is the parent org?  I guess this is?

you have to report sales over so much even if you are a 501c3. and if you sale anything as a business that is not related to the actual church you have to report it.  It's hard to say what their sales might be.  the church itself might make income from some business. 

maybe a dollar store????

You are far from being a "whackjob"....Your heart & soul goes into these cases....It's very clear you are a  ::MonkeyAngel:: here to help find the missing.

I agree,something really sinister about this group.

Maybe those people quit going to Northwest Life for the same reason/s Wayne Watne removed all of those images(mostly with kids)from his Flicka(or whatever)page.

okay I had to quit and get some sleep last night and today is a new day. 

I think one very important thing would be to figure out if wayne watne has any connection at all to this church in elma.  It is a non-denominational church and they believe they are there to align with others to rule the region.  so, wayne watne, being a "missionary" might be connected to several churches.  We still do not know the doctrine of where he actually came from.  We do know he is very interested in astronomy/stars.  This does not mean he is interested in astrology, however he could be.  Dennis Rader/BTK loved the stars, but no one actually knew that, it never came out.  He mixed his love of the stars and his "Psychic" abilities and his biblical teachings and he went bonkers, all the time he considered himself a Christian; see how warped people can get.  And he got away with this for 30 years.  These people know how NOT to get caught, but if you know what they believe, they are very predictable. If they follow their belief, which they will, because they BELIEVE it; then once you figure out what their actual BELIEF is you can know what they have done, and what they will do. 

our work is to figure out what they believe.  ugh.  can get very complicated.

 

that might very well be.  no one should suddenly start removing photos if there is nothing wrong.  If everything is on the up and up they would be very happy to have more people seeing the "good works" they are doing.

my personal priority today is to be to find locations where lindsey might be.  Locating her is the #1 priority. 

one thing I am trying to do is get ahold of someone I know who works with ancient astrology.  Not the kind where you have some program printing off stuff.  no offense to the ones who use the programs etc, but these people use the OLD stuff and it is different.

but if someone out there, no matter what they use could tell me where mercury was at the time of her missing and any patterns of 29 degrees.  this will help me a LOT. 

I am not an astrologer, I don't work with astrology etc, but I do know this.  THEY "believe" it; they plan accordingly.  You don't have to believe in astrology to figure out with astrology what they are doing.  Because THEY believe and use it, if we know what was going on astrologically at the time, we can understand if they are using it or not.  hope that makes sense.

VERY interesting........is Wayne Watne connected to this group and is there a meeting place in McCleary for this group?Will see what I can find.
I wanted to tell you DD,that the santanic stuff scares the caca out of me and I try not to read/see anything about it so I cannot participate in that aspect of this case investigation but I promise I will try and be stronger and keep up with it.
Just that topic gives me what I say is devil nightmares.
I watched a Law&Order show last night that I had dvr'd from a month or so ago and it dealt with child sexual abuse in this cult but this was a so called"God"cult....no sacrificing of kids but they raised their kids to have sex(as a group)with everyone in the cult....from a very young age.
It was a scary and very sad show.

basically what I want to know is if mercury started going retrograde.  If someone can tell me or whatever you can tell me until I can locate the person I have worked with before.

and "person" if you are reading here. will you PLEASE EMAIL ME  ::MonkeyAngel:: 
keysring@yahoo.com
nolonglatnoifno

Wow, this is all very interesting, thanks, and scary. Between this case and Sandra's case, and some of the religions, I just had no idea. I'm somewhat familar with the occult, but only on a very limited basis, and the thought of a off balanced person preaching and people buying it  ::MonkeyEek::  I was born and raised in a small town, but most people were Catholics or Protestants, never saw really much of other religions.

this is very mind-boggling stuff and it WILL scare the heck out of you.  It gets to me also, but someone has to dig into it because this stuff really does exist and if we all just try to ignore it, they keep getting away with it.  the more we laugh at it as if it does not exist ad the more we say omg I don't want to know this stuff, the more no one sees it, believes it, investigates it, and the more they get away with it. 

I understand how people can't even think about this stuff and it scrares them to death.  I have had many a day and night that I wish I never ever looked into this stuff, it was so much easier to laught at those who believe iti is happening and not look at it.  But in one case I decided to really go research myself and see if there was any truth to this mess.  I did, and I found out things no one ever needs to know.  Since then I will not want to work on any cases like this and when I see it I go omg I do not want to do this.  but then I think well there is someone out there missing, possibly alive who is praying like heck God will send someone to help them.  What if God says okay, sends someone but that someone says, oh no I am not going.  ugh.  So I feel that way and go anyway.  I look like a nut, people boo ha ha me to death, they call me nuts, they harrass me etc.  but what do I do, quit?  So I do it.  and look how I am looking about now ugh. 

but I do understand how people just can't get involved in reseraching nor investigating this stuff.  Everyone has different talents and not evenyone does the same work, so we all just have to do what it is we are suppose to do and leave everything else to someone who is supppposed to do other things.  This is one of "my" things to do, so you do whatever it is you do best, and I will dig into this stuff.

DD,WS has an astrology thread but I have never read it so I don't know how in dept it is.

believe me the whackjobs can be sitting in any church.  They can be in any group of beliefs.  But some beliefs really get twisted.  There are many unstable people who go to churches, it is their last hope to help them cope, or to get through a hard time, to get "delivered" from whatever they think has some hold on them, to be accepted, etc.  So churches have a LOT of people with unstable minds.  You don't see it, but inside their thinking a LOT of them are really messed up.  Then the preacher will pick and choose 10 scriptures and pound them down the congregation.  They memorize these scriptures and never bother to read what they apply to.  so then they start "living" the memorized scriptures and make it say anything they want or anything they get confused about.  Then you have a person who thinks they are "serving God" and "doing" what God wants them to do" when in fact you have some brainwashed person with his twisted up scriptures going out and trying to fix the world in the name of God.  And then whe you get the ones who believe they are CALLED to a HIGHER calling and they start leading others. ugh. 

so a lot of people are scared of the occult but people really need to wake up, a lot of these churches are a comination of the occult and Bible based beliefs and they mix and twist them up until the people are nuts

I will go read it and see if I can find where mercury was and what is retrograde etc.  I don't understand it either but I do not the PATTERNS in these weird crime cases if these people are using astrolgy.  so I will just look for what I know exists in other cases.

Thank you for understanding DD.
No way am I laughing at this chit or closing my eyes to it.That's what really scares me about it all....that it is true and happening every day in a lot of places.

I need words off the maps.  anything biblical.  Zion, Holy, Paradise, Diablo, Jerusalem, Heaven, Hell etc
I need to know where rivers meet.  Isands inside these rivers.
things like that.

I'm going to go look for that now.  if anyone sees anything like that let me know 

I read the astrological report over on WS.  I did not see the same patterns as you usually see in the weirdo cases with the occult, however, like I stated before they do not use this TYPE of astrology so I really doi't know if this is following the pattern or not.  And being I don't unnderstand it myself(I only know the patterns) then I don't know what if anything they left out.  ugh.  I really need to get in contact with the person I always work with on these things, but I am not finding them. ugh.

I am making some notes here, this is the area of the fire

this is where two rivers would meet coming out of Elma
I am coming south out of Elma
I run into chehalis River
Follow that southeast, Delezene Creek branches off of it and runs southwest.
At the branch area is a Triangle where Delezene Rd, Sund Rd and South Bank Rd form a triagle
numbers here so far are:
13, 18, 24, 19, the sections intersection is almost right in the center of this triangle
below that is Eaton Creek
Just south of that is the Lower Chehalis State Forest, with MINOT PEAK just to the left of the state forest
there is a road straight to the peak, which is located in "10", almost in the intersection of sections 3,2,10, 11

I also see there:
Victoria Creek
Rock Creek

The bottom line is the WORD of God is very plain on the subject of compromise with those "Who changed the truth of God into a lie" (Romans 1:25). The Cult teachers are all false prophets "for the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain...." (Zechariah 10:2).

Anticipating the lies, Jeremiah wrote "....they prophesy a lie unto you. For I have not sent them, saith the Lord, ye they prophesy a lie in my name....that I might drive you out, and that ye might perish, ye, and the prophets that prophesy unto you." (Jeremiah 27:14,15)

(http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww90/doubledeck/baumchehalismap1.jpg)

words "South Bank"

off to a meeting.

chehalis means SAND
but before that is was called the "Nawaukum River", meaning "gently flowing waters"

to get to the Delezene Camp Ground from Elma

From US-12 take the exit for Elma onto S 3rd Street. Left onto S 3rd Street. S 3rd Street will become Wakefield Rd. Bear left onto S Bank Rd. (it's not a true left turn, just a slight curve at a fork). Right on Delezene Creek Rd., follow until the end of the pavement, and continue on the gravel road (Mapquest and Expedia both say that the road changes names a a few times, but we didn't see any signs to tell us that, so just follow the gravel road). There's a couple of roads to turn off onto, but just keep going straight. You'll go over a couple tiny bridges, just follow the road all the way until you find a a Weyerhaeuser forest sign instructing you not to trespass. As strange as it sounds, continue passed the Weyerhaeuser sign (don't turn onto another road, just go down the road with the sign), following the road. Shortly, you will see signs for Camp Delezenne (Weyerhaeuser just happens to own the land around the campgrounds). You will see a small, grassy parking lot on the right-hand side where you will need to park. As you continue down the road, you will see the ranger house on the left and a couple cabins and the lodge just passed the ranger house, also on the left side of the road.


so the weyhauser owns the land surrounding it, I bet the gates are locked
 

camp delezene
(http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww90/doubledeck/baumdelecabin2.jpg)

(http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww90/doubledeck/baumdelecabin1.jpg)

Camp Delezene of the present day Pacific Harbors Council is located Southeast of Elma, Washington and was owned by Twin Harbors Council. The first camp opened on July 13, 1958. 40 acres owned, 33 leased. Today it is a primitive weekend camp with a Swimming Hole. I believe the Camp's name comes from Delezene Creek. There is also a Delezene Precinct of Grays Harbors County (circa 1920) which had several logging Camps where entire families lived.

I have been reading very carefully and ... have failed to comprehend any proof that the ministries/oureaches discussed on this thread are not Biblically based.  Maybe I have missed something.

Many who have committed despicable offences and ... desire to to begin their lives anew by reaching out to God to save them from their sinful past ... are often embraced by ministries/outreaches that are not mainstream/conventional as the mainstream/ conventional churches may not be welcoming.

Janet

++++++++


1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Eph 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Cor 11:14-15
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness."

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Matt 7:15-16
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

1 John 4:2-3 2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder."

Rev 19:10
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Matt 7:16-20
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

2 Peter 3:3-7
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

1 John 4:4-6
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

2 Peter 2:1-2
But there will also be false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

However ... a high percentage of members of these unconventional churches often take their focus off of God and ... in time fail in their sincere efforts to put their sinful past behind them them.  The actions of these members in the society should not be a reflection on the church whose mission was to support them in their journey to new lives.

In other words ... when the nature of the ministry/outreach of an unconventional church in regards to sex offenders is considered ... there will be a much higher percentage of backsliders than the mainstream church.

I hope I am making sense.

Janet

sorry but I am not sure what you are trying to point out here with all these scriptures.  What is it related to?  having to do with the what is going on in the Elma church? 

I am not sure how this has anything to do with what I am seeing about that church.  All churches or other groups who try to help people have people who cannot do what is expected of them, be it a church, NA/AA/, someone going to counseling etc.  No it should not reflect on the person trying to help them if the person going for help just keeps on doing whatever.  But this is not the case with this church.  The leaders are kicking people to heal them, yelling Bam BAm Bam, having teenagers knocked out in a boxing ring, cursing people, asking that the cancer out of one person hops on the "bad" people, trying to hide people from the law, telling members they are the rulers and judges of the region, pulling in as many kids as they can to watch this crap, and having their members who are on drugs influenced by this.  This is a ticking time bomb.  This is the kind of place where whackos end up and add "religion" to their whackiness. Jos went to this church and lindsey was there at least once 3 weeks before she went missing.  some nutjob in this place could be responsible.  And if the nubjob is really whaced you have to look into what and how they might be thinking, therefore you have to figure out what the doctine is they are being taugh.  that is all I am saying and I have seen this in many cases wehere the killerst believe they are following what God wants them too.   

when half the congregation gets up and leaves, and you have locals who will not allow there kids to set foot in that place, then you know something is wrong. 

Janet, your description not only applies to non-demon churches, but mainline churches as well.  Many people in mainline churches have taken their focus off of God as well.  Although we are assuredly looking at SOs, backsliders are not limited to SOs.  You offer interesting statics, do you have a source that I may be able to use?

I pulled this from the Exploited thread:

www.stamfordadvocate.com/ci_12818271?source=most_emailed

gives good insight to different practices.

dd, it also sites some experts in this field, which I don't have a problem trying to contact via e-mail about the dates, etc. you wanted info on.  Let me know if you want me to proceed.

I have studied a lot of these or at least looked them up before.  I think it is a good idea to gather info on them all, if not for this case, for any others, we never know what we might run into, and if we don't know about certain things we will miss and overlook them.

as far as what I am looking for it is not out there.  LOL  I have never seen this combination talked about but there are a few people I usually work with on this stuff who know what it is.  But so far I am NOT locating the things which should be there, so I still am not sure what is going on with this case. 

dd, I'm not sure why I feel this way, yet there is a part of me that believes she is still alive but time is running short!  Now my dear monkey, who's the whacko now?

there is an old stanislaus county cali det who is now an expert on occultic / Satanic etc cases.  His name is Randy Cerny.  I am not sure where he is located NOW.  He is sometimes called in as an expert.  I don't even know what all he knows about really.  But he has commented on some of the cases I have researched. Although he never saw what I was seeing.  He saw the basic stuff but didn't see the details and combinations I see. 

But so far, in looking at the maps I am not locating anything yet where I would think Lindsey would be taken IF falls in line with what I am looking for.  I am still looking though.

I did find a HELLS creek and the GATE, but there is a MOON by the Gate and moon does not really mean much to me.  Hells creek and gate might if there were more by it, but on the map I looked on I did not see anymore, but I will pull up some really old maps and see if there is more there not on the other maps. 

well without going into detail of why etc, a lot of times I get stuff right off that will tell me the person is no longer living, or later on I will just know they aren't.  I have not got that in this case.  but I don't always get things, but when I do they are usually right on the mark.  Because I have not gotten much about this case then I have to do things with just researching etc, and so in this case I am just getting nowhere.  Every person so far, every theory so far, everything is seems just as much possible to me as the others.  I just keep working on them all until something pops up. 

and yes, I keep wondering if she is alive is she won't be before much longer.  I feel like I am really trying to beat the clock ugh

DD

The above Sciptures are guidelines provided in the Word of God to assist in decerning if the ministry/outreach is Biblical based or ... has a hidden agenda.

Janet

from the article link above:

They can't say for certain what religion or practice is involved. What Conklin has learned is this is an active period for rituals because of the phases of the moon with a new moon forming July 21.

"A lot of sects believe magic becomes more powerful around the time of a lunar eclipse and the new moon," said Amy Blackthorn, who has a Ph.D. in theology and lectures on various religions.

yes I know what the scriptures are intended for in general, but everthing that is going on in that church it certainly has things going on there that should not be and certainly has things going on that might house someone goofy and Lindsey was at that church.  If a person was attending there and tested the spirits I am sure they would see this is out of line, which half of the church has.  or at least even if they do not have biblical discernment they SEE it with there own physical eyes and they are not aggeeing with this nor are they allowing their kids to go in there. 

I am not debating doctrine I am saying what is actually going on in that church building with some of the leaders of the church and their ministry.  When the locals are telling me what is goig on in there and who some of these people are, it does not matter what they are suppose to be doing, it is what they are actually doing that is not good. 

this is very true, this is why I keep mentioning all the missing in July.  some of them will kidnap the person ahead of time in JULY then kill them later in JULY.  they are held and that in itself is part of their belief system so "IF" this be the case in this case, we have 6 days to figure this out.  but so far I am not finding any locations. 

I do know this, am told this, there is a site on top of a mountain, I don't know yet which mountain, there were altars on the creek and and one local told me it is on jim mullin creek ad another one said they thought it another creek. 

I am also told more but I ca't post it because if I do, they will know who is telling me this stuff

just so you all will know I have studied the bible for 46 years.  yes I am old LOL

and no I am not a "witch hunter"  ::MonkeyNoNo::

I really wish I could post everything I am hearing it would blow you away, but I can't.  if anyone were to read here they would be madder than heck at some people and that would not be good at all

one more thing I need to say.  I am not stuck on this theory or whatever you want to call it.  It is just something that has surfaced just like every other person/persons of interest and I need to look at this stuff because I for one believe this stuff is happening all the time.  I am looking at this possibility just like I looked at watne and all the others and some I have not even posted about.  I would not have even looked in elma church had I not had someone tell me josh and lindsey have gone there and all about what is happening there and WHO some of these people are and what they are doing.  they saw it with their own eyes, it is not just something they THINK.  so I have to go through this stuff and try to figure out where that mountain is where the creek altars are and wherever else this stuff is going on in the area.  It IS going on, it is not a question of where it is or not, it is a question of where at it is going on and if it has to do with anything to do with lindsey's disappearance. 

dd, I too am not going to debate doctrine, just because Jim Jones, et al could quote scripture . . . I too have studied the Bible for a long time (I'll let you be older, teehee).  It is what I do by vocation.  There are many churches of all sorts that stick their heads in the sand about evil.  I know better.  There is a war going on and it is killing adults and children.  You are so right, you've got to get into the heads of these people in order to try and anticipate what they do and why they are doing it.  No matter how warped or perverted they use doctrine is not the issue, they are good at what they do because they are evil.  As Janet reminded in the scripture, they can and will disguise themselves as the angel of light.  If one is not practiced in this or prepared for the warfare, they shouldn't engage.  It is powerful and deadly warfare.

Sister

The purpose of my post was to point out that ministries/outreaches that are focused on making positive changes in the lives of those with sexual and substance addictions ... the environment will not reflect ... for example ... our conservative church where the outreach is for the community as a whole.

There is a store front ministry/outreach in our town run by the Salvation Army.  Volunteers and contributions are solicited from the conventional churches in the area.   Free meals are offered to the homeless and the addicts.  Basic clothing, church services, Bible Studies as well as social activities are also a part of the program.  Lives are being turned around as the love of God is embraced.

However ... there is a downside to this store front ministry/outreach.  Many of those who have not reached a point where they have made personal decisions to turn their lives around ... take advantage of the ministry/outeach as a meeting place to further addictions over a free meal.  Businesses in the area complain of increased vandalism, breakins and lack of clientel as families feel uncomfortable ... unsafe ... in the immediate area of the center.

In other words ... the good that the ministry/outreach does in the name of changed lives is not being recognized when the negative is taking into consideration.

Janet

well let me say this, it is not ONLY spiritual warfare with these people, they will physically hunt you down and kill you.  they are no one to full with.  and they are all over.  and this is why I will not say everything or they will knoow who is telling me this stuff, and that person could be killed. 

yes, dd, I know.  They have no limits.

Good Night Monkeys!  Good Night Zookeepers!

Janet
8:30 PM PT

The Harvest Ministry leaders appear to be coming out of the Assembly of God church.

janet, I can guarantee you the leadership and what they are teaching is as bizarre as heck, if I could tell you all I am hearing you would understand this is not a ministry which is on the up and up and the members are goofed up.  this is more than that.  ugh.  there is a huge difference than a ministry trying to help people and the members are just messed up and acting in a way that is not good.  But what really matters here is this.  josh and lindsey had contact with the people of this church.  should we not look at the bizarre stuff and the people who are running this and the people who are there who could very well be the people who are responsible for her disappearance or who caused her to be scared.  When the teachings are this bizarre that people are refusing to let their kids go there ad they themselves are leaving, you have to wonder about the leadership and who are the people living there. 

anyway, I don't believe most churches are like this at all.  They all have different doctrines ad that is fine with me, they can believe whatever they want to believe, but this is just bizarre stuff. 

anyway I have to get back to looing at maps and keep checkig things against info I am gettig.

since we're giving our bio's  lol....i've lived in the bible belt all my 31 years...i've seen people wash others feet, pass snakes, and speak 'with the voice'...i've also seen molestation, alcoholism, drug use, and just plain crazy.  i have nothing against religion, but i do have issues with those who shove an idea or belief onto another....i DO believe there are people out there that will take snippets from any religion they can and bend it to their own will....i also believe when people are at their lowest state they will look for light where they can find it...manipulation is at the heart of most evil....

In other words ... the good that the ministry/outreach does in the name of changed lives is not being recognized when the negative is taking into consideration.

Janet

I understand what you are saying, but at this point in looking for this child, recognizing the good is not what I think will help us find her.  We must and should look at the bad because the "good" would not harm a child, but the "bad" have reasons so beyond the ordinary that there is where we must look.

If the practices of the "Christian" ministry of the church that Josh and Lindsey was affiliated with do not conform to Biblical standards then ... I agree that exposure is where it is at.

DD and Sister ... what are the practices of the ministry/outreach of Evergreen Christian that are troubling to you?  The church website reflect that of my church.

Janet

++++++++


The Daily World – July 1, 2009

Lindsey was in Girl Scouts. She went to church at the Evergreen Christian Center in McCleary, an offshoot of a larger church in west Olympia.
 http://**/articles/2009/07/01/local_news/doc4a4ba94721f78989072462.txt


Evergreen Christian Community

http://www.ecconline.cc/ecconline/

DD

Has any of your research implied that either Josh or Lindsey was affiliated with Havest Vision Ministries?

Could you please direct me to your posts that expand on the negative aspects of this ministry?

Thank You.

Janet

++++++++++

Harvest Vision Ministries

http://www.harvestvisionministries.org/page/page/6528584.htm


Examiner - July 1, 2009

Lindsey’s Girl Scout troop leader, Becky Spalding said, “I had to tell her to be quiet because she was laughing all the time. It’s very unbelievable. You see this on the news, but you never know anyone who it’s happened to.”

Wayne Watne, a member of the Evergreen Christian Community Church and representative of Harvest Vision Ministries said prayers for Lindsey’s return.

http://www.examiner.com/x-1168-Crime-Examiner~y2009m7d1-Emotional-vigil-held-for-missing-Washington-girl-Lindsey-Baum

Possibly the best way to explain it would be to start at about page 4 reading all the posts with all the links, etc.

 ::MonkeyNoNo:: ::MonkeyNoNo:: ::MonkeyNoNo::

sorry i got in your box.

i'm not trying to be mean...there us a 'sub-couture' of people who exsit....their  mark is the un-assuming and the un- knowing .....nastyness is their lives and' you do not need to get in the mix....i have no opinion so its not an issue to me.  these people are more harm than good...evil is out there....
and btw i don't like it AT ALL[/quote]] (ftp://[quote)[/ftp]
that was me

I have not been hearing crazy stuff about that church so I have not looked at it like I am the one in Elma.  I would be there is a huge difference in what is going on there as compared to the one in Elma, but if someone starts saying they are doing the same things as the one in Elma, believe me, I will wondering what is going on there also.  They only thing I have heard about the evergreen is wayne watne is connected there.  that does not mean anything really. 

I'm not  a church basher but when they get this bizarre someone needs to be asking what the heck is going on, especially when one of the leaders does know about a bunch of crazy stuff going on in the area, knows where it is, knows people who are doing it, one is a relative sex offender, and the you have them hiding people who are hiding from the law.  It is a HUGE difference.  And now I have found out they are also influencing children to do some of this same weirdness.  This is just crazy.  I am not hearing anything crazy about the evergreen church or any other church in the area.

geeze after this i will really  ::MonkeyEek::be mamacrazy

all the posts about this craziness are in this thread for the most part and other than that I don't have time to look for them. 

I don't know if lindsey or josh spent any time with any other church than the evergreen and the elma one and I was told that lindsey only went there a couple of times that she did not "attend" church there like the paper makes it sound she did.

my eyes are crossing....i will never stop..bbt ::MonkeyAngel::

Sister

The beliefs of Harvest Vision Ministries may imply a cult classification from Christian perspective but ... what has this got to do with the disappearance of Lindsey Baum?  Does this ministry have a history that indicates illegal acts involving children.

I am just trying to comprehend what connection exists between the "Christian" ministries in McCleary and the disappearance of Lindsey.  When I read the Harvest Vision Ministries'  website ... there are no red flags.

What am I missing.

Janet
 

 

My 62 year old eye lids are closing.

Good Night for the last time.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Janet
10:30 PM PT

Hidden within many "Christian" religions, are people who are evil.  No denomination is immune from this, at least that I know of.  I do not know of any denomination that has not had their fair share of SOs. We are looking to see if the SOs associated in the areas Lindsey frequented are associated with any of the churches.  We are looking to see if there is any connection between folks that have an interest in the occult or weird practices within their churches are associated in any direct or indirect way with Lindsey or any of the other children.  We are specifically looking for these things.  We are not bashing any church, no matter the denomination.  But just because the "written mission" of a church meets the smell test, doesn't mean it passes the smell test.  Let me be clear and then I am not going to address this again until this child is found, I work with the homeless, I counsel addicts, I am a volunteer chaplain in a State prison.  I do this to help people.  The evil people cannot tarnish these ministries.  There is not a rock or a person that should be passed over because they have a "Christian" label on them.  We are all here to try and find Lindsey and I deeply pray that we can help.

hmmm are those moles on his face?  if they are they moved?  but certainly looks like him, could this be a brother?

this is the sex offender michael david feeser, photo taken from his sex offender registry.  where did your photo come from. 

(http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww90/doubledeck/lindsey%20baum%20case/baum-so-feeser-1.jpg)

hhmmm your feeser photo did not post in above post.  well tomorrow I will copy and get it on here, right now I am falling asleep ugh. nite

the only church I am talking about is the ELMA new life center.  I haven't stated anything at all about any other churches..YET LOL  I might if I hear the same stuff is going on. 

I think I will go discuss this elsewhere, I can see it is becoming a problem here.

dd, I hope you will reconsider going elsewhere.  This is what this thread if for.  Please don't go.
We knew it would be controversial.  I say we stay focused.

did you see my question in the other thread?
Was the last name Gregoire mentioned here or did I dream it?

Hi DD,

I feel like I am in good company with you.  You are really operating outside the box and I like that. 

Okay, if there's any possible connection, here's what I first found when I located WW's Tonasket property.  And now since we are talking about occult-type stuff, when I pulled up the actual map of WW's Tonasket property, there was the name Moonscape Road going directly through the middle of the three parcels owned by him.  When I googled the road, Moonscape, in or around Tonasket, it didn't come up in the results.  I don't know if this means anything, but that property is way out in the middle of nowhere and the name Moonscape that's clearly printed on the tax assessors map does not come up in a search that I could find.

Great work DD.  Wish I was in McCleary now, poking around. 

Blessings to you,
Kim

Okay DD, I am just going to free associate here and I hope somehow it helps.

1.  The leaders are kicking people to heal them.  Bam, Bam, Bam.
Okay, well to me this is out and out brainwashing through torture in the name of God.  If they are doing this with children, in a public place, with adults around, the kids end up thinking this is acceptable perhaps.  The adults who stay on, the witnesses to this abuse, are somehow accepting of this because....................I am not sure.  Are these congregants the ones hiding from something.  If they keep their mouths shut, and allow these practices to continue, they will stay safe.  Status quo.  They don't get put out, they have a home as long as they play by the rules.  I don't know what this tells us about doctrine though.
Sister...... TomikosMom.....do you know of any scripture that could be used and so twisted as to cause this type of action?  Now, think outside what YOU believe.  Try to think as someone who is definitely on a power trip for some sort of perverted result.  What scripture could they twist around to suit their agenda.  We really need you on this.  It is only when we think as they think that we will arrive at what DD has been getting at.  If we know the scripture/doctrine it may bring us closer to discovering what they are doing or planning next.

2.  Having teenagers knocked out in a boxing ring.
Well, I am thinking that these leaders are facilitating some sort of release for these kids.  Remember now, I am just free associating.  Teens are a mess, in my experience.  Hormones.  Horney.  Identity stuff, growing up stuff without much leadership and love.  They Want to hit something or someone.  Maybe these leaders are providing some sort of vehicle by which these kids can vent their frustrations, anger, hatred.  You know, a lot of teens say they hate their parents.  Perhaps the leaders make it okay for these teens to vent the specific rage toward their parents.  I have no idea since I have never observed this.  But, I am thinking that in some way they are actually fueling violent behavior against a loved one, perhaps, to cause separateness from the parents or loved ones.  Perhaps this is why we heard about some abuse that Jose perpetrated against Lindsey.  Maybe this was the very thing being taught to these kids.  Remember, just talking to get everyone thinking a little differently.  Trying to jog someone else's ideas here.

3. Cursing People
Again, the leaders are making it okay to be angry, to hate perhaps.  And they are basically teaching hate begets hate. 
Hmmmmm.......perhaps these kids are in training for some eventual ritual or event where kids are actually beating up other kids or worse?  Perhaps this is part of the doctrine? The ultimate Good vs. Evil.  The showdown.  Perhaps the good kids are the ones who're missing and being kept somewhere.  I know, it's unbelievable to even think.  But IF this could be a possibility, then perhaps the kids at this church are in training, combat training to some degree.

4. Asking that cancer hop out of one person and into a "bad" person.
Okay, so they definitely have this good/bad or good/evil thing going on.  Most churches do.  Most of us have this experience, if we read and learn what the Bible teaches.  Whether these kids think they are on the side of the good or the bad doesn't really matter much.  What matters is that whatever they are doing is accepted.  If the kids are the victims of this abuse, they will become the abuser most likely given the right circumstances.  If the kids are being brainwashed, then they will still, most likely, mimic what they've been taught by their leaders.

5.  Telling the members that they are the rulers and judges of the region.
Dang!  I am unclear if the leaders are telling the members that they (the leaders) are the rulers and judges of the region or if the leaders are telling the members that they (the members) are the rulers and judges of the region.  I would love to know which it is.  This gives us two scenarios though.
     A.  The leaders are the rulers and judges of the region.
Well, if these members believe this, then they will faciliate whatever judgement comes to whomever. 
     B.  The members are the rulers and judges of the region.
Well, this is even more dangerous because there are apparently a bunch of members who do not operate with their full faculties and some do not subscribe to the same human and moral rules as the rest of society.  So, the leaders give the members permission to rule and judge.  This feeds their appetite for only God knows what.  They not only become even more loyal, but they become more free to perpetrate their insatiable desires on whomever. 

I know this seems absolutely unbelievable.  But, perhaps if we could all contribute here, in this spirit (I know it's hard) we can either reach a dead end or perhaps we may stumble upon something here.  If the doctrine is Bible-based, we may be able to get somewhere.  If the church is occult-based (Godless in reality but pretends Godliness) then I don't know cause I am not that familiar with the occult.

But, I think it's safe to say that if what DD describes is really happening, she may be right.  There may be a chance to bring some children home.

Oh, something just flew through my mind.  I AM WONDERING IF THIS HAS ALREADY GOTTEN OUT OF CONTROL????  BECAUSE SO MANY CHILDREN ARE MISSING THIS MONTH.....OVER THE LAST 3  OR 4 MONTHS.  DO YOU THINK THAT SOMEONE OR MULTIPLE SOMEONES MAY BE TAKING MORE CHILDREN THAN THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO?  LIKE THEIR APPETITES FOR WHAT'S TO COME IS ESCALATING?

Okay, let's help DD.  Gosh, I hope this approach makes sense to you.  Just trying to "hear" what DD is asking and trying to move in the best direction that will help us find out what's really going on.

Blessings,
Kim

Kim, will be happy to provide some scripture references that are frequently twisted.  As the book of Revelation scares many people, if a person seems to have great insight into it, some people are in awe, consequently it is easy to manipulate.  Additionally, many of the prophets from the Hebrew scriptures are easy to use to manipulate, especially when plucked out.  DD research is important because she provides the buzz words, i.e. harp and bowl, which has meaning in scripture as well in the occult.  Sorry can't stay tonight, good to see you here DD.  Blessings.

I am glad you didn't leave forever...you are awesome at this.  Please stay and help Lindsey.

SATANIC CULTS: EX-FBI AGENT FEARS FOR SOURCES
By James Wallace P-I Reporter
THURSDAY, May 4, 1989
Section: News, Page: B1
An ex-FBI agent  who claims there are satanic burial sites in Mason County  said yesterday his informant who knows details about the killings is afraid to come forward because he fears for his life.

The informant knows of seven burial sites in Mason County, including one that contains the bodies of at least 20 people, Ted Gunderson said. But the informant is not willing to talk with authorities about the murders.

"If people talk, they die," Gunderson said.

He said an Olympia man was murdered in 1987 in Grays Harbor County because he was helping him uncover evidence about satanic cults in this state.

"There are extensive satanic activities taking place in Washington state, particularly along the coast," Gunderson said.

But law enforcement officials said there is no evidence to support any of the claims being made by Gunderson about bodies buried in Mason County or satanic activity there. And authorities in Grays Harbor County said they investigated the murder of the Olympia man and found no evidence linking his death to a satanic cult.

Gunderson said he is trying to find someone in Mason County with knowledge of the grave sites who is willing to sign a search warrant that law enforcement officials will need to dig up the bodies.

Only then, Gunderson said, is he willing to sit down with authorities and tell them what he knows.

He said he has not personally seen the burial sites, but he has been told of their location by his informant. He said he does not have any information about the victims.

"These people have been killed over a period of years," he said.

His comments came in a telephone interview from his office in Santa Monica, Calif. Since leaving the FBI in 1979, he said, he has investigated satanic activities around the country. Gunderson spent nearly 30 years with the FBI and retired as senior agent  in charge of the bureau's office in Los Angeles.

He caused a stir in Mason County this week after he appeared on the syndicated "Geraldo" television talk show, which discussed the recent cult- like killings of at least 15 people at a ranch in Mexico.

"The next burial ground that we will learn about will be in Mason County, Washington," Gunderson told host Geraldo Rivera.

In the interview yesterday, Gunderson said he has been investigating satanic activities in Washington state since the early 1980s. He said he has many "reliable" sources in the state who have helped him. Some of those sources are working from inside the cults, he said.

Gunderson said he became interested in satanic activity when he investigated the case of Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, a Green Beret captain convicted of killing his pregnant wife and two daughters in 1970. MacDonald claimed a hippie cult killed his family.

He said he also worked as an investigator with Maury Terry,  who wrote "The Ultimate Evil," a book about the Son of Sam serial murders in New York.

Gunderson said he is reluctant to give authorities in Mason County  details of what he knows until he finds a witness willing to step forward.

"If I turn this over to the wrong law enforcement officials, I could blow the whole thing," he said, explaining there are members of satanic cults throughout society, including police agencies.

"This element has infiltrated every level of society,"  he said. "It's big, and involves heavy-duty, intelligent people . . . doctors, lawyers, prosecutors, police, airline pilots . . . every walk of life has been infiltrated."

He pointed to what has happened in Thurston County, where authorities are investigating satanic-type rituals and have charged three men, including a former deputy sheriff, in a sex-abuse case.  
He said hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people are involved in satanic activities in this state.

"Their best weapons are fear and secrecy,"  Gunderson said of the cults.

Gunderson said a "hit man," who was working for a satanic cult drug network, operated out of Shelton  in Mason County for a time. The man was arrested last year in California in connection with two contract killings in that state, he said. Gunderson declined to name the man.

"I have enough heat on me now," he said. "I don't want his buddies coming after me. They have come after me in the past."

Mason County Sheriff Bob Holter  declined to go into detail about any of the claims made by Gunderson.

"There is no evidence that there is any validity to anything that he has said," the sheriff said.

Gunderson said the hit man likely was responsible for the death of Larry Gearon in Grays Harbor County in 1987.

Gearon was killed because of what he knew about satanic activity in this state, Gunderson said.

"He was working for us. He was discovered," Gunderson said.

Gearon, 38, of Olympia, was found dead March 12, 1987, just off U.S. 12 about two miles north of Malone in Grays Harbor County. He had been shot several times in the head.

Gunderson contacted the sheriff's office shortly after Gearon's body was discovered and told officials the death was linked to satanic cults.

Grays Harbor sheriff's Sgt. Rick Scott  said he and Inspector Mike Whelan  spent much of April and May of 1987 pursuing Gunderson's claims.

But Scott said Gunderson failed to provide substantive details and claimed to have "an informant" who was supplying him with the information.

Gunderson refused to name his informant, or provide specific details that could have corroborated his story, Scott said.

"If Mr. Gunderson today has any further information we're again asking him to provide it, if it even exists," he added.

found dead March 12, 1987, just off U.S. 12 about two miles north of Malone in Grays Harbor County. He had been shot several times in the head.


Look on the map, where this is.  Is this an old dumping ground area for victims.  What about Shelton.  These people are all over and have been in that area sinse at least the 80's. 

There are people in the Elma church who have been involved in Satanism(I am not saying all Satanists are this way, this is just the term used to describe these groups of whacko's) for years if not raised in it all their life.  It has been alive and well for a long time in these areas.  And from what I am being told, it is still alive and well. 

I wonder if Gunderson is still alive.  seems he was in santa monica, Calif. 
I will try to find out. He should be OLD by now.  retired in 1979 after 30 years so he would have been at least 50 then?  if he started at 20.  so he would be 90 now, most likely he is not living.

Who has his research.  Maybe someone ask maury terry?  is he still living?  I know someone to ask, I will ask.

Good question.  Who has his research?
Glad you're here.  I'll be back in a couple of days.

Thank-you for that interesting article, I have no doubt in my mind that these Satanic cults are around. I have followed a lot of cases, I'm not good at researching and that like you and some other members are. The day I logged on and read about Lindsey which was right at the beginning, I became ill, can't explain just got a very sick feeling come over me. That has not happened in all the cases I have read about before. It has been bothering me why do I feel that way about Lindsey, I think you are on to something big.

I try not to read and research too many cases because there is just never enough time to read and research all of them, but for some reason I was just looking through the cases and this one just really said "read me".  at that time there was really nothing on the board to read, but I felt so drawn to this case I started digging.  here we are now.  At first I kept thinking why this case, and I kept looking at it and just could not find anything that would suggest anything like this, but here we are, it is surfacing enough I have to look at this stuff.  so I am. 

today I stumbled onto this article and thought hmmm this is not the first time someone has been investigating this stuff up there in that area.  so we do have a bit of info.. look where they dumped that one guys body...right where I was looking on the map yesterday, right there by the fire, etc.  and the killing was out of mason or thurtston county but they dump him over in grays harbor county south of Elma.  I wonder who killed this guy. 

so we have one possible clue. 
then somewhere there are suppose to be 20 bodies in 1989 over in mason county... so now we have a connection there so we might look at the map up there.

then we have thurston county over to the east of grays harbor so we look on the map there too.  now we are 20 years later from this article, did the group dwindle away?  did it grow?  did it stay the same? what?  from what I am hearing from the locals this group is alive and well, I just had no idea it was that old and spread through so many counties, well now here is this artice.  hmmm

well I have been told by locals this satanic(for a better word) ritualistic stuff has been going on for a long time.  one of the people I'm told of was involved for at least that long so they were probably involved back when this group was investigated in 1989.  so is it the same group still up there?  sounds like it might be. 

if michael feeser the sex offender really was involved in the stuff out on jim mullin creek, then how many people does he know involved.  is he still involved?  how do you get out of this stuff and still live in the same area.  I would think you don't.  so is there anyone up in that area who is going to be willing to talk about this stuff or at least get some info to someone so they at least know where they might go look or who to look at just in case this group is still active and IF they had anything to do with lindsey's disappearance.  I really don't know what to think here. 

we need to get maps out of all three counties and start looking for a mountain top with other words around it that might have spiritual/biblical/ etc meanings.  we need to look for creeks that join together and if an island in the middle the better.  words on maps , numbers, that would be symbolic of certain things.  words whose meanings mean something inline with killing or spiritual meanings. 

then you have to wonder, WHY jim mullin creek, so do we go to where the creeks join together.  is there a place up there with two creeks coming together?  would that be at the word FORK.  is this why we are all seeing the word FORKS/FORK popping up.  so lets look for all the FORKS 

also words when rearranged that would spell out somethig else

look on the map.  highway 12, Malone, the area where the body was dumped of the guy who was killed way back then.... to the left is Delezene where the fire was. 

look there at Malone and 12, right off the road to the left is where the two creeks come together.  I would love to know if that guys body was there between those two creeks. 

(http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww90/doubledeck/baumchehalismap1.jpg)

small tidbit, I was looking in the map, etc. thread and came across a photo taken where a screwdriver was embedded in a tree.  It appears to be at the park across the street from Lindsey's house.

hmmm I will go look

fron the Chehalis Tribe website:  People of the Sand
"In the old days we gathered sacred roots and berries. We fished the Chehalis, Black, Cowlitz, Satsop, Wynoochee, Elk, Johns, Skookumchuck, and Newaukum rivers. Our people fished and hunted from the mountains, across the prairies, to Grays Harbor and in the lower Puget Sound.

In the old days the baskets carried and stored our foods. We relied upon the baskets, the rivers, the land, the roots, the berries, the fish, and the animals. Our lives were tied together by the Creator.

-Liichaat, “Just These Few Words”"

Following the destruction of Jerusalem, Ezekiel's speaks of the future of Israel in God's purpose, by no means forgetting Yahweh's stern demands for righteous conduct and abhorrence of corrupt religious practices, but emphasizing the future glory of Israel in a restored land where genuine faith and obedience would flourish.  The exiles in Babylonia by the river Chebar . . .
Ezekiel's most detail vision -- the setting is the river Chebar -- that canal along the Euphrates River in the vicinity of Babylon.  The prophet sees first a cloud swept along by a wind from the north.  The cloud approaches, with fire flashing about it.  Within the cloud and revealed by the lightning flashes, a bronze object appears.  As the cloud draws nearer, the faces and bodies of strange figures are distinguishable.  There are four figures, each with four wings and four faces.  One pair of wings of each figure is spread out, shutting of from view that which they conceal and the protectors of that object.  These beings bring the object which they bear still closer to theprophet.  He is then able to see flaming torches, burning coals, fire darting out from behind the creatures.  Moreover he sees four wheels, one beside each of the creatures.  And above them he is now able to make out a firmament, a kind of platform.  Resting upon this platform is a throne, and upon the throne the likeness of a man, although the fire and the gleaming bronze make it impossible for Ezekiel to see this figure with any clarity.  The brilliant colors of the rainbow mark the entire scene, and its splendor overwhelms the prophet, who falls upon his face as he hears a voice addressing him.

Ezekiel is describing the coming of Yahweh from heaven to Babylonia, although there are assuredly elements of the ark of the covenant in the Jerusalem temple.  Yahweh comes from the north, the traditional location of the high mountain whre heaven and earth meet.  Yet the north (or the northwest) is also the direction from which Yahweh would come if He had followed the path of the exiles in their journey from Jerusalem.

The vision goes on, Ezekiel is careful not to say too much about what he saw, for the emphasis in the vision is not on what he saw but upon the divine word.

So Kim, as you can see, it is very easy for people to take such scripture and turn it into whatever they want it to mean.

Oh, by the way, I meant to add that none of the above has been twisted from the Bible account.  It can be found in Ezekiel the first chapter.

dd, educate me please.  What are the numbers in red on the map?  I obviously didn't study typocraphy (sp).

Man Accused of Rape in Satanic Rituals Nears Release

04/09/2002
Associated Press


The former Thurston County sheriff's deputy who pleaded guilty to raping
his daughters in satanic rituals is nearing release from prison. The
state Corrections Department says Paul Ingram can be released from a
Delaware prison when he has a plan for treatment and counseling.


He pleaded guilty in 1989 in Olympia in a case that that raised
questions about recovered memory allegations.


 University of Washington memory expert
Elizabeth Loftus contend that Ingram's guilty plea was based on a false
memory. They say he was encouraged by his pastor, a psychologist and
police interrogators. They told him he'd be able to remember what
happened if he confessed.


Sheriff Gary Edwards said he has no doubts about the confession or
qualms about sending Ingram to prison

His PASTOR encouraged him to plead guilty?  He had a PASTOR at the time or the satanic ritualistic rapes?  So was he attending church at the time he was involved in Satanic Ritualistic Rape?

The reality of Yahweh's appearance is beyond description.  Ezekiel sees the "likeness" of four creatures, the "likeness" of a firmament, a throne, a man seated upon the throne.
So even though the temple in Jerusalem is hundreds of miles away, Yahweh is not bound to Jerusalem, to the temple, to the worship of Israel in the temple.  Those who have given up hope in Yahweh's guidance and are ready to make a new life for themselves in the alien land are reminded that Yahweh is still calling them to fidelity to His will.  Those who fix their hopes upon the homeland and expect great works of God there, certain that nothing can be done in exile to provide their escape, are assured that Yahweh can accomplish His purpose of His people no matter where that people may be.
Ezekiel's account contains no explicit message -- the chief message of the vision is, accordingly, that Yahweh is with His people -- perhaps for their good, perhaps to bring more severe judgment.  They are not outside the range of either His mercy or His judgment.  He is their God, their Lord, their judge, perhaps their redeemer even there and then.

To which I now say good night and happy digging.

Loftus also said: "In 1988 Paul Ingram, a police officer, was arrested for sexually abusing his two daughters, an allegation he strongly denied. Over an extended period of five months, however, he was subjected to pressure by fellow police officers, psychologists and other advisors, suggesting he had committed child abuse, including having raped his own daughters.

Eventually Ingram began to confess to all manner of rapes, child sexual abuses and even to participation in a Satan-worshipping cult which had allegedly murdered 25 babies.

At one point the prosecution brought in the renowned memory researcher, Dr Richard Ofshe, now Professor Emeritus at the University of California, Berkeley. He was asked to interview Ingram. Ofshe soon became suspicious of Ingram's credibility. In order to test Ingram, he made up a story that his son and daughter claimed he had forced them to have sex with each other while he watched. This was something Ofshe confirmed with both son and daughter had not actually happened.

Over a period of hours, and despite initially denying the memory, Ingram slowly began to generate these false memories. Ultimately Ingram wrote a three-page confession to a crime that was completely fabricated. What else might he have fabricated under this kind of intense pressure?

Unfortunately for Paul Ingram, Ofshe's report wasn't issued until after he had already confessed to the crimes and been convicted. He was then unable to withdraw his guilty plea. Paul Ingram remained in jail until 2003 and is still a registered sex offender despite many doubting his guilt."

I thought the words said by the police that they were NOT GOING ON A WITCH HUNT was kind of strange.  but when you look at this(at the end of article) ... could they be remembering a time when the were accused of "being on a witch hunt when trying to track down Satanists?  Are the police now thinking that something like this is going on again?  Why did the police now in Lindsey's case us the word WITCHHUNT, that seemed so strange to me, until I read this. 

The Olympian, Trhusday, Dec. 1, 1994, page C1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ingram seeks pardon from state
By Brad Shannon


Board will recommend:  The state Clemency and pardons Board will listen
to the sheriff deputy convicted of incest on Friday.


A former top Thurston County sheriff's deputy convicted of incest is
seeking a pardon or some other help from Gov.  Mike Lowry.

Advocates for Paul Ingram, who's controversial case is discussed in
several new books, will be given a hearing sometime after 9 a.m. Friday
before the Clemency and Pardons Board.

Because of an outpouring of interest, the meeting has been moved to a
larger room, Hearing Room 4, in the Cherberg Building, which is the
Senate office building, according to Anne Fennessy, the governor's press
secretary.

The board can reject Ingram's request, ask for more information or make
a recommendation of anything from a partial to full pardon, according to
Fennessy.  The five-member board's rulings are advisory only, although
18 clemency actions have been taken by Washington governors since 1986,
Fennessy said.

But as one of some 22 cases before the pardons board, Ingram supporters
may have little time to make a case.

Ingram, the former top civil sheriff's deputy and head of the Thurston
County Republican Party, pleaded guilty to six counts of child rape in
1989 and is serving a 20-year prison term at Delaware State Prison.

He since has tried unsuccessfully to withdraw his guilty plea, claiming
he was coerced into confessing to acts he did not commit.

But both the state Supreme Court and U.S. District Court have upheld the
validity of Ingram's plea, which also underwent a five-day review in
Thurston County Superior Court.

Gary Tabor, the county's chief criminal deputy prosecutor, says Ingram
implicated himself in statements to police, long before investigators, a
minister or psychologists got involved in the questioning.

However, victims of so-called "recovered memory" are rallying behind
Ingram, creating a defense fund and trying to generate support for his
cause.

The advocates suggest Ingram's memories of abuse were manufactured.

Among those advocates is Seattle-based Chuck Noah, a former Lewis County
resident, who says he himself was falsely accused of abuse by his
daughter after a therapist encouraged her to remember events that Noah
claims were fictitious.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page C2
Ingram conviction heats up debate on recovered memories

By Brad Shannon

Who's the victim?  Some activists say memories of past sex abuse are
often the result of poor therapy.


The Paul Ingram case lies at the center of a national debate over the
value of so-called "recovered memories" of childhood sexual abuse.

Activists rallying behind Ingram, who was convicted of raping his
daughters, say memories of long-forgotten sex abuse are actually the
result of sloppy therapy or implanting, a phenomenon they call false
memory syndrome.

Among the activists is Chuck Noah, a Seattle man who was accused of
abuse by one of his own daughters, a charge Noah heatedly denies.  Noah
believes Ingram similarly was the victim of false accusations.

But Thurston County Sheriff Gary Edwards and Chief Criminal Deputy
Prosecutor Gary Tabor have stood by investigator' handling of the case
in which Ingram, a former top official in the sheriff's office, admitted
his guilt and then tried to take back his guilty plea.

"Before there was any opportunity for anyone to brainwash him, he had
already admitted (the abuse)," Tabor said Wednesday. "The brainwashing
theory was only a theory."

Those advocating he brainwashing theory have had several chances to make
their case, Tabor said, "but it has been found not to be credible by any
number of courts."  Tabor noted that the Superior Court, Court of
Appeals, state Supreme Court and U.S. District Court in Seattle all have
let Ingram's plea stand.

Edwards said recently that Ingram had admitted molesting his daughters -
even before Ingram was subjected to questioning that became the focus of
critical books, magazine articles and television specials.

After being told the girls would need counseling, Ingram told Edwards:
"You better get some help for the boys (Ingram's sons), too."

But in Lawrence Wright's book, "Remembering Satan:  A Case of Recovered
Memory and the Shattering of an American Family," Ingram is described as
being encouraged by both police investigators and his pastor to recall
events.

According to Wright's research of the Ingram case files, Ingram was told
that in cases like this one, a suspect sometimes will find that he can
remember better once he confesses.

A day or hours after certain questions would be asked concerning new
allegations made by his daughters, Ingram would come back with detailed
recollections that seemed to incorporate the previous day's questions.

Ingram also made hypothetical statements, describing how he would have
done the abuse, if he were to have done it.

Ingram was arrested on the charges in 1989.  No physical evidence of
sexual abuse or satanic activity was ever produced.

The most bizarre element in the Ingram case involved unproven
allegations by Ingram's daughters that he and numerous other deputies
engaged in satanic rituals that included the sacrifice of babies and
sexual abuse.

Police dug up land around Ingram's home on Fir Tree Loop, but found no
bones.

Two other men accused of sex abuse in the case were never brought to
trial as the daughters' stories became entwined in stories of Satanism.

Charges against the men eventually were dropped, but Undersheriff Neil
McClanahan, who led the investigations has refused to clear their names.


Richard Ofshe, a Berkeley sociologist who believes Ingram manufactured
his memories of satanic abuse, has suggested the sheriff's office went
on a modern-day witchhunt.

Beware of being a "true believer." Paul Ingram believed, and it cost him his freedom.

The Prosecution Of A False Memory: The Paul Ingram Case

By Daniel Brailey, Founder of the Ingram Organization

This is the story of Paul Ingram, an active charismatic Christian in Washington State, not only admired among his Christian friends at the Church Of Living Water, but also in the community where he was a longtime Thurston

County deputy sheriff and chairman of the local Republican party. In 1988, Paul's two daughters accused him and a number of prominent men in the community of satanic ritual abuse and sexual abuse. There were months of whispered rumors, extensive questioning, and finally, arrest, incarceration, interrogation, and even an exorcism to "cast out" the evil that Paul's pastor was convinced caused Paul to perform such insidious acts. After all this, Paul confessed, pleaded guilty without a trial, and is now serving the eighth year of his lengthy sentence in a state prison. What is especially startling about Paul's case, however, is that neither he nor many people with the most knowledge of the case believe he is guilty. Instead, Paul became a victim of the child abuse and satanic ritual abuse hysteria of the late 1980s.

This hysteria is promoted by Christian publishers popularizing false testimonies, social agendas overindulging in promoting even fanciful tales of child abuse, and a therapy industry riddled with ineffective and even misleading therapies of memory recovery and multiple personality disorder.

Many experts believe that today, almost a decade after the craze began, many judges, law enforcement personnel, journalists, therapists and Christian leaders now recognize the hysteria for what it is. If Paul's case were to occur today rather than in 1988, he never would have been arrested and even less persuaded to make a false confession and be sentenced to prison. Yet Paul is still in prison, his appeals exhausted. His only hope is direct intervention by the Washington State Governor's office. How this twisted experience developed offers fascinating insight into modern social myth making.

THE ORIGINAL CASE

In 1988, his daughters, Ericka and Julie, accused Paul Ingram of sexual abuse and made bizarre claims of satanic ritual abuse. The charges grew out of events at a retreat sponsored by Ingram's church, the Church Of Living Water.

At the end of the "Heart To Heart" retreat, Ericka was found sobbing in a corner. Karla Franko, who claimed to have the gift of prophecy and whose ministry was prominent at the retreat, came to "minister" to Ericka. As Franko put it," I am the one who opened the can of worms, all I know is what the Lord told me." Karla told Ericka that the Holy Spirit had told her Ericka was a victim of sexual abuse by her father.
Ericka mutely nodded her head in agreement. This was the third allegation of sexual abuse Ericka had made at three separate Heart To Heart Retreats. Of the two previous charges, one was made in 1983, against a church counselor, and then in 1985 both girls made accusations against a neighbor. In both cases, no evidence was found and charges were never pursued. Now, however, in 1988, they were accusing their own father, and the social and religious climate reflected the credulity and naive acceptance many people had at the time regarding satanic ritual abuse

"Ingram attended the Church of Living Water. They taught two religious concepts that were to cause him incredible problems later:  That Satan can cause a person to commit terrible acts, and then wipe their memory clean afterwards 
 That any memories that he recovered would be accurate. God would prevent him from recovering false memories. 
Over time, with the use of sleep deprivation and interview techniques verging on hypnosis, the interrogators convinced Ingram that he suffered from multiple personality and had repressed the memories of the abuse. He believed that he had brought up his daughters to always tell the truth. He concluded that he must be guilty, but that Satan had wiped the memory from his mind. During the interrogation, he confessed how he might have done these terrible crimes, but maintained that he had no memory of having actually done them.
At various times during the interrogation, he recovered images of killing a cat and murdering a prostitute.

Various sources report that:  His daughters recalled that her mother Sandy had taken a relatively passive role in the abuse. 
 Erica allegedly recalled details of Satanic ceremonies in which 6 to 8 month old babies or fetuses were sacrificed. She remembered being being forced to have sex with animals while her mother joined in. She believes that she was present at 850 Satanic rituals which included about 25 infant sacrifices. She recalls becoming pregnant, being tied down to the table, aborted with a coat hanger. She recovered a memory of watching the Satanists chop up the fetus and eat it. But she was unable to remember any of the words to the Satanic chants, or even whether she stood or sat during the almost 1000 rituals. 
 Julie and Erica both recalled having become pregnant and having abortions. They claimed that they had scars all over their body from the years of abuse. 
 Julie accused one of her father's friends, Jim Rabie of abusing her. She was unable to recall any tattoos or scars on his body. But Jim has a "rope like, 3 inch [wide] keloidal [large, red] scar" across his chest - the result of a massive electrical shock that nearly killed him 20 years earlier. Julie said that she never changed clothes in the school locker room and always wore a T-shirt over her bathing suit, because she was so self-conscious about her scars. A medical exam showed no evidence of abortions and no marks on either daughter except for Ericka's small scar which was caused by an operation to remove an ovarian cyst (some sources say inflamed appendix). 
 Julie had told her mother that the father's assaults had ended five years earlier. After having been informed about the statute of limitations, she changed her story, and told police that the last assault was three years previous.
 Ericka had originally said that the abuse ended in 1975. But she later told police that she had caught the STD from her father in 1987.
 Paul confessed to cutting the bleeding heart out of a live cat, to killing a prostitute in Seattle in 1983, and to being involved in the Green River killings. The Green River Task Force studied Paul’s statement, but found nothing that matched the facts of the case. 10
 The sisters drew maps of Ingram's back yard where they remembered the bodies of the sacrificed victims were buried. The police excavated the yard but found no evidence of bodies or of disturbed earth. 10
 At one point, a forensic archaeologist, Dr. Mark Papworth, said to Undersheriff Neil McClanahan that there was no evidence: "On this one occasion I said, 'Neil, there’s no evidence. None at all. Zero.' And he said to me. 'If you were the devil would you leave any evidence?' and, I, my hair stood on end and I realized at that point there was no talking to him beyond that and I excused myself." 10


Good gravy, Satan cannot read our minds.  Another twisted church -- and I use the word church liberally.

Paul confessed to cutting the bleeding heart out of a live cat, to killing a prostitute in Seattle in 1983, and to being involved in the Green River killings. The Green River Task Force studied Paul’s statement, but found nothing that matched the facts of the case.


 ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyConfused::

so...no wonder the police do not want to go on a WITCHHUNT, but why call it a WITCHHUNT

that is such a strange word to use.  Are they looking for something what would be connected to that word?  Do they think there is something inline with this?

doesn't this wreak of wenatchee, which by the way is just to the east of this area.  And I really do keep seeing some of the names I saw in the cantu case LOL.  later I will go through and see if they are the same people, but I don't have time right now.  just bizarre

yes, why even put the word out there?
 :smt102
 :smt015

I just came across PREACHERS SLOUGHCities / Towns near PREACHERS SLOUGH, WA
HUMPTULIPS, WA (10.0 miles)
MONTESANO, WA (0.0 miles)
NEILTON, WA (7.2 miles)
QUINAULT, WA (3.7 miles)

I have too, making a list -- later I'll get you to check it twice (not really, once will be sufficient).

oh where is the post about you asked if you dreamed up the name, I remember now whre that name is I think.  I think that name is connected to wayne watne

NO NO Please don't leave.  I haven't really had a chance to do much posting here but I have been up till all hours reading all the info posted here and I think you are onto something.  I will not elaborate but DD I do know where you are coming from.  I know this kind of thing exists and it happens everyday all over.  I know that some people may find it hard to believe and it is very controversial but everything needs to be researched, researched & researched. Whatever it takes to bring Lindsey home.  These kind of cases are always tough and a lot of people, especially real religious people don't want to talk about it, they want to pretend it's not real, it frightens them and rightly so, myself included BUT it has to be looked into and more people need to become aware of what's going on with this stuff.   ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek::

Thanks for all your hard work.

God Bless You

Where are you Lindsey?

I love your avi.  I'm a real religious type, it's what I do. 
 :smt051
But I also know in the world, known as the community where I live, evil in guises lurks.  Our children are so vulnerable.  Some adults have taken their innocene of mind and body and destroyed it.  God bless you and all who care about the children and one another.

here it is, it is a letter from wayne watne to mrs Gregoire.  now, is this lady related to the ones in the sandra cantu case?   ::MonkeyEek::

Dear Mrs. Gregoire;

I met with both yourself & Doug Sutherland several times during my tenure at the Lummi Tribe where I was the Timber Fish & Wildlife manager for 3 years.

My concern is that there is little accountability or validation of tribal catch (and now it is hunting as well as fishing).

To keep this brief I will give a short example of the problem as I see it... If you would like to see more details you can have your staff contact me.

1)The tribe are the fishers...
2)Tribal fisher sell to a) tribal seafood plants or b) non-tribal seafood plants. Non-tribal seafood plants are totally dependent upon tribal fish supplies in order to stay in business.
3)Seafood plants are in the business of selling fish... the more they sell the more they make. There is incentive (especially if the only supplier is pushing the envelope and there is no other supplier)to "fudge the numbers". It is real easy to make records show 100# of 5# salmon (20 fish) look like 10- 10# salmon on a fish ticket when it is in the best interest of those involved and there is no-one looking over your shoulder.
4)Tribal catch is then reported to the tribe who in turn reports it to the NW Indian Fish Commission.
5)Finally the numbers (that were not subsitance & ceremonial, over the bank sales, and "barter material")are reported to the state.

There is a lot of room to "adjust" the numbers to see that fishers are entitled to harvest more. It seems odd that the Lummi Tribe ESA coordinator is also the harvest manager... or does it? If the fish are harvested "just enough" to ensure they remain on the ESA, then the Tribe continues to recieve Millions of taxpayer dollars.

I have been involved in all aspects of salmon fishing from sport to commercial to aquaculture and as a fisheries biologist in two states. Millions of taxpayers dollars are going toward salmon recovery plans, shared strategy, SRFBD grants, improving fish passage, and habitat restoration. I was there at the signing of Shared Strategy with Bill Ruckelhouse, Billy Frank & yourself. Not one time was there any mention of ensuring fishery harvests are accurately accounted for by ALL user groups.

I know the Tribes are in the drivers seat on fisheries "co-manangement" and also that the Services are to ensure salmon are protected under the ESA. I find it strange that NOAA Fisheries who has oversight over salmon stocks sits in the same building where US Department of Commerce and NOAA Fisheries provide oversight & training for the HACCP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point)Seafood Inspection Program which has "food safety audits" as key component of the program. Why do they not do that for salmnon harvests as well... the fish are listed under ESA and they are to provide for salmon recovery.

With Federal Habitat Conservation Plans, ESA listed salmon (and now steelhead... after how many years of salmon recovery?), Millions being spent on habitat restoration I find it hard to believe that there are no Third Pary reviews of Tribal harvests. There are several well documented cases where ESA listed salmon stocks have been overharvested (Makah winter chinook troll fishery a couple of years ago, the recent harvest of 30 spring chinook for the salmon ceremony and another 25 illegally taken from the Nooksack River where the SF Nooksack has a population of +/- 100 spring chinook salmon returning annually). This alone should serve as evidence for the need to ensure that the State & Services obtain accurate information. The taxpayers of the State & United States deserve accountability if they are to continue to pay millions for salmon restoration.

Habitat is the key to recovery... if the salmon can get there.

Thank you,

Wayne S. Watne
xxxxxxxxx I have the phone #

I love your avi.   Thanks  I'm a real religious type, it's what I do.  I am religious as well
 :smt051
But I also know in the world, known as the community where I live, evil in guises lurks.  Our children are so vulnerable.  Some adults have taken their innocene of mind and body and destroyed it.  God bless you and all who care about the children and one another.


You are so right about that.  Evil is everywhere.  I just want Lindsey to be returned to her family. She's just a little girl with her whole life ahead of her, too young to have to deal with such evil.

God Bless Lindsey

I pray for her family everyday and hope she will be found soon.

WTH??? ::MonkeyEek::

why do i have issues with this???

well I don't know  ::MonkeyCool::
why do you?

but he seems to think he is God over the fish  ::MonkeyShocked::

where is the post by ww where he says about the stars and astronomy

The Lummi Indian Tribe and Life with the Salmon

Puget Sound, Washington
Contact: Kurt Russo
Lummi Treaty Protection Task Force
Tel: (360) 
Fax: (360)
Puget Sound, WA

Scope: Rural

Project type: Salmon conservation and restoration

" Fish is culture, and culture, fish."
The Lummi Tribe of Native Americans has resided in northwest Washington State at the northern end of Puget Sound for 12,000 years. Throughout their existence, the Lummi people have relied on fishing as the mainstay of their culture and their survival. They designed the commonly used fishing methods of the reef net, the weir, and the purse seine, and lived in villages along the mainland and throughout the San Juan islands. Ceremonies and legends related to salmon and salmon fishing, with names such as The First Salmon Ceremony and The Tale of the Salmon Woman have been passed down through generations and provide evidence of the sacred relationship between the Lummi history and culture and the salmon.

Today, the Lummi people consist of over 3,500 enrolled tribal members and primarily live on or around a 20,000 acre reservation. Fishing and gathering of shellfish is the primary means of subsistence for most of the Lummi. Their livelihood and culture is based on fishing, and has been so since their existence as a tribe for the past 12,000 years.

This critical economic and cultural resource, however, is presently severely threatened with extinction. During the past ten years the salmon stocks have drastically declined. Once so thick that you could "walk on their backs" as legends say, two of the four species of salmon are now being considered for the national Endangered Species list.

This decline is attributed to accelerated logging in the headwater areas of the Nooksack Basin, the erection of small hydroelectric dams on salmon streams, ground and water pollution from industry and agriculture, the decline of wetland areas, and the rapid and irresponsible development of the lowland areas. As a result of such actions, the North Fork of the Nooksack River has dropped over eight feet in the past ten years, over 60% of the salmon streams have been destroyed due to logging practices, and the critical portions of the South Fork of the Nooksack River average over 70 degrees F. which is a lethal temperature for salmon. A more recent threat to the species is the growing "private property rights" movement that decries the regulations on private lands that were passed to protect the salmon streams.

The Lummi people have been dramatically confronted by this salmon decline, and have formed a united front that plays an extremely important role in maintaining the fish stocks in the region and responsibly managing and using the threatened salmon resource. The Lummi carry this out by maintaining the largest Native American fishing fleet in the Pacific Northwest, which boasts of the most extensive fisheries protection program in the region. This program enlists the services of over 150 highly qualified tribal fisheries technicians and specialists, many of whom were trained at the Lummi School of Aquaculture or, more recently, the Lummi Community College. The Lummi Tribe's Fisheries Department has an annual budget of over $3,000,000 and operates one of the most successful and productive salmon hatcheries in the United States, releasing over 17,000,000 salmon fingerlings each year.

The overall goal of the fisheries program is to provide for the sustainable management of the fisheries stocks, including the protection of salmon spawning habitat in locations forty to sixty miles from the Lummi reservation. Fisheries staff take careful action to fulfill their mission by monitoring of the health of these streams, conducting salmon counts in many of the small river tributaries near the Nooksack Basin, and monitoring the return and harvest of the salmon.

As the salmon population continues to be threatened, the Lummi are currently working by increasing the productivity of their hatchery operation, actively pursuing the establishment of new and stricter laws to protect salmon habitat, and engaging in an aggressive public education campaign to better inform the public of the importance of the salmon in creating sustainable livelihoods for many of the Washington state citizens. The Lummi are also represented on the International Salmon Commission that seeks to restrain the activities of the off-shore drift net fishery.

The actions of the Lummi tribe provide a model for the involvement of indigenous peoples in the planning and management of our existing natural resources. By actively taking part in both local and international efforts, the Lummi are forcing the current industrialized society to listen to and account for traditional values and management methods with regards to natural resources. Sound policy changes are needed that discount present actions according to their impact on future generations, and often indigenous peoples are the true experts on such policy due to their understanding of generational time. To the Lummi, overfishing is not an option because it won't last into the future and if fishing is gone, their identity and culture will disappear.

According to the Lummi, the Great Salmon Woman has taught them that if they take only the amount of salmon needed and protect the birthing areas of the salmon (who are hatched, go to sea for four years, and then return to their birth spot to spawn and die), the salmon will continue to exist and thrive. With this understanding, the Lummi people continue to work toward sustainable management of our current resources, and to educate the people of today in the management methods they have been using for thousands of years.

Special thanks to Kurt Russo and the information gathered from his paper "Swimming Upstream: A Way of Life on the River."
Case Study Source: Sustainability in Action: Profiles of Community Initiatives Across the United States-- American Forum for Global Education. 1995

posted by dd
post by wayne watne

Wayne Watne

This is awesome timing for such an emphasis on Astronomy! If you really want to seee something amazing about the stars and really get an understanding of how incredibly large some of the stars are, how big the universe is, and the magnitude of the distances between some of the galaxies and earth check out the CD "Indescribable" by Louie Giglio... it will blow your socks off! They are available online... another is "How Great is Our God" also by Louie Giglio. Believer in God or not, the two CD's do the most amazing job I've ever seen to put the size of the cosmos into a perspective that most can grasp the imensity of the stars!

Wayne Watne, McCleary, WA (Sent Monday, January 05, 2009 10:40 PM)

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 30900.aspx
 

hmmm I am remembering something else then, somewhere wayne watne I thought it was him says something about the taste, smell, sight, hearing, touching. in other words the 5 senses. 

I can't get this to come up any more -- that's where the above came from.
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 30900.aspx

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Why should Christians care for the environment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb_EsIss1W4

Sorry, missing the point.

Chemosh - Lord of the Moabites
Chemosh was a god of the Moabites
 "destroyer," "subduer," or "fish god." 

 his cult was imported to Jerusalem by King Solomon (1 Kings 11:7).

 King Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23). 
 
 the Moabite Stone or Mesha Stele, was a monument bearing an inscription commemorating the c. 860 B.C. endeavors of King Mesha to overthrow the Israelite dominion of Moab. 

Moabite Stone contains the oldest existing inscription of a Semitic alphabet. 
 "And Chemosh drove him before my sight." (2 Kings 3:5)   

Moabite Stone (Mesha Stele)
  Within the text the inscriber mentions Chemosh twelve times.  He also names Mesha as the son of Chemosh.  Mesha made it clear that he understood Chemosh's anger and the reason he allowed the Moabites to fall under the rule of Israel.  The high place on which Mesha oriented the stone was dedicated to Chemosh as well.     

Blood Sacrifice for Chemosh
  In 2 Kings 3:27 we find that human sacrifice was part of the rites of Chemosh. 
such rites were commonplace in the various Canaanite religious cults, including those of the Baals and of Moloch. 
Chemosh and other Canaanite gods such as the Baals, Moloch, Thammuz, and Baalzebub were all personifications of the sun, or of the sun's rays.  They represented the fierce, inescapable, and often consuming heat of the summer sun (a necessary but deadly element in life; analogs may be found in Aztec sun worship).   

 Chemosh's role in the Moabite Stone inscription is analogous to that of Yahweh in the book of Kings.

(1.00) Jer 48:46
 Moab, you are doomed! 1  You people who worship Chemosh will be destroyed. Your sons will be taken away captive. Your daughters will be carried away into exile. 2
 
(0.83) Num 21:29
 Woe to you, Moab. You are ruined, O people of Chemosh! 1  He has made his sons fugitives, and his daughters the prisoners of King Sihon of the Amorites.
 
(0.83) Jdg 11:24
 You have the right to take what Chemosh your god gives you, but we will take the land of all whom the Lord our God has driven out before us. 1
 
(0.83) Jer 48:7
 “Moab, you trust in the things you do and in your riches. So you too will be conquered. Your god Chemosh 1  will go into exile 2  along with his priests and his officials.

(1.00) 1Ki 11:7
 Furthermore, 1  on the hill east of Jerusalem 2  Solomon built a high place 3  for the detestable Moabite god Chemosh 4  and for the detestable Ammonite god Milcom. 5
 
(0.80) 1Ki 11:33
I am taking the kingdom from him 1  because they have 2  abandoned me and worshiped the Sidonian goddess Astarte, the Moabite god Chemosh, and the Ammonite god Milcom. They have not followed my instructions 3  by doing what I approve and obeying my rules and regulations, like Solomon’s father David did. 4

(1.00) Jer 48:13
 The people of Moab will be disappointed by their god Chemosh. They will be as disappointed as the people of Israel were when they put their trust in the calf god at Bethel. 1
 

(1.00) 2Ki 23:13
 The king ruined the high places east of Jerusalem, south of the Mount of Destruction, 1  that King Solomon of Israel had built for the detestable Sidonian goddess Astarte, the detestable Moabite god Chemosh, and the horrible Ammonite god Milcom.

so we are looking for  
(1.00) 1Ki 11:7
Furthermore, 1 on the hill east of Jerusalem 2 Solomon built a high place 3 for the detestable Moabite god Chemosh 4 and for the detestable Ammonite god Milcom. 5

(1.00) 2Ki 23:13
The king ruined the high places east of Jerusalem, south of the Mount of Destruction, 1 that King Solomon of Israel had built for the detestable Sidonian goddess Astarte, the detestable Moabite god Chemosh, and the horrible Ammonite god Milcom.

so we are to go (ON A HILL) EAST to the HIGH PLACE
south of the Mount of Destruction

"the Mount of Olives" (Heb. har hazzetim, only in Zech 14:4; Grk. to oros tou elaiov, the mount on which the olive grew; Matt 21:1; 24:3; 26:30; Mark 11:1; Luke 19:37; John 8:1). It is referred to (2 Sam 15:30) as "the ascent of the Mount of Olives"; "the mountain which is east of Jerusalem" (1 Kings 11:7); "the mount of destruction" (2 Kings 23:13), from the heathen altars erected there by Solomon (cf. 1 Kings 11:7); "the hills" (Neh 8:15), and "the mount called Olivet" (Acts 1:12). The hill has now two names, Jebel et-Tur, i.e., "the Mount," and Jebel et-Zeitun, "Mount of Olives."

"the Mount of Olives" (Heb. har hazzetim, only in Zech 14:4; Grk. to oros tou elaiov, the mount on which the olive grew; Matt 21:1; 24:3; 26:30; Mark 11:1; Luke 19:37; John 8:1). It is referred to (2 Sam 15:30) as "the ascent of the Mount of Olives"; "the mountain which is east of Jerusalem" (1 Kings 11:7); "the mount of destruction" (2 Kings 23:13), from the heathen altars erected there by Solomon (cf. 1 Kings 11:7); "the hills" (Neh 8:15), and "the mount called Olivet" (Acts 1:12). The hill has now two names, Jebel et-Tur, i.e., "the Mount," and Jebel et-Zeitun, "Mount of Olives."

The Mount of Olives is mentioned in connection with the flight of David from Absalom (2 Sam 15:30); with the building there of high places by Solomon (2 Kings 23:13);

The only other OT mention of the Mount of Olives is in Zechariah's prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the preservation of God's people (Zech 14:4).

 The NT narrative makes Olivet the scene of four remarkable events in the history of Jesus: the triumphal entry-its scene being the road that winds around the southern shoulder of the hill from Bethany to Jerusalem (Matt 21:1,8-10; Mark 11:1,8-10; Luke 19:29,36-37,41); the prediction of Jerusalem's overthrow (Mark 13:1-2); Gethsemane-after the institution of the Lord's Supper, Jesus led His disciples "over the ravine of the Kidron" and "out to the Mount of Olives," to a garden called Gethsemane (John 18:1; Matt 26:30,36)

I think I found the "38" 

the creek is also wildcat creek that is north to mccleary.  it is running into wildcat and there is a fork there.
just west of that is a rest area.  there is a heise road going south.  you come to the 38 south of that, but this is not in a red circle so not sure this is the right 38 still looking. 

there is garden city above mccleary. 

I am falling asleep is 2:30 am.  I will work on this more tomorrow but I think I am getting somewhere now.

come to find out:

 gregoire is the last name of our governor, that WW letter to mrs. gregoire was to the governor of washington.

Most excellent work DD -- keep going and am I ever praying!!!

King Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23).

A favorite story of mine.

Just wondering, why he didn't address her as governor?

must not have any respect for persons of political authority? just a guess

DD

Wayne Watne ... as an informed concerned citizen ... not as God ... is informing the governor of Washington concerning the illegal activity that is taking place within the Native tribal community in regards to the fishing industry.  Limiting catch of the Salmon resources ... which status Natives are afforded the lion share ... is established by the "powers that be" for the benefit of future generations.

Janet

++++++++

"Dear Mrs. Gregoire" is very respectful in Tamikosmom's world.

Janet

I don't think you understand AT ALL what I am doing here.   You are reading "surface" information and this is nothing like what I am doing. 

And this is to the point that everything I say you are trying to debate the "surface" information.  I am not working with "surface" information.  I think some people realize that and others don't.  And I don't have time to explain that. sorry

I agree DD...I have been following this case since the beginning and I want Lindsay found so much!!  I have seen your skills with this case as well as Amber D's case, and am amazed.  Also, I am following how you research and think...a lot of brainstorming and free flow of ideas and information.  I come from a business background and first thing I was taught in college and in "real life" was that what you do is a great technique towards solving problems.  While brainstorming, noone's opinion is discarded, ridiculed, etc. or the team's discussion will likely shutdown and will affect the outcome of the problem solving exercise.  So, in other words, if you decide this is "getting old" and go elsewhere, will you please let us know where you are?  My talents are very limited...I'm better at analysis than research.  Please let me know if I can help you in any way towards finding precious little Lindsay!!!

Thanks to you and the other Lindsay "sleuthers" for your time and passion.

Prayers for Lindsay.

????   ::MonkeyEek:: some of it doesn't make since and it sounds like code-speak ::MonkeyShocked::

Just in case you are reading here.  Yes, YOU the person responsible for Lindsey being gone.

I have reached the gates but I am not standing outside waiting for the gate keepers to open them.  I have went into the center and there we do see you.  and yes I know you will understand this perfectly well. I'm elsewhere now, but I am working non stop, don't think I have went away, I have not; and now there is more than I working to track you.  You won't see that though. 

so maybe at this point you should start communicating.  I think that is your best bet.  Of course my email is on this board but you won't do it that way and I do not expect you to, but you will find another way, you people always do. 

there are many gates, through which one do we enter?  I'll take my pick, they all lead to the center of the out of the sun and into the shade.  and no we are not walking with the Queen of the North, think again. 

so I'm waiting for some correspondence.  You're smart enough to do that...aren't you?  ::MonkeyWink::

Ditto -- I've learned my lesson, I'm just going to ignore and I'm going to stay focused on the reality of it all.  If you are where I think you are, it won't matter which gate.  This one may be L shaped and may also go in a counterclockwise direction.  The Fish Gate is near the temple area.

At least in cases of extreme cases, if not generally practiced, children were probably sacrificed to Chemosh.  2 Kings 3:26, 27

The Moabite Stone was made of black basalt stele.

Jeremiah, in foretelling calamity for Moab, indicated that her principal God Chemosh as well as his priests andprinces would go into exile.

FYI - the woman who helped Ingram's daughters "remember" appears to be teaching Religion at Crafton Hills College, Yucaipa, CA

"Dear Mrs. Gregoire" is very respectful in Tamikosmom's world.

Janet

In my world, "Dear Governor Gregoire" shows respect to the person and to the office she holds. IMO

Baal of Peor - it has been suggested that Baal of Peor may have been Chemosh.  The Israelites, which encamped at Shittim on the high plains of Moab, were enticed into immorality and diolatry by the female worshippers of this god.
emphasis mine.

Fish Gate is at 740 in elevation the highest.  The Tower of Hananel, Tower of Meah are part of the Castle.  Fish Gate, Sheep Gate, Fate of the Guard, Inspection Gate all lead to the temple area.  These are at 730 elevation.

where are we going... ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyNoNo::..... i normally blow this kind of stuff off..people pick snippets of what-have-you to comfort/justify themselves all the time....looneytoons everywhere....i think this is MUCH BIGGER...jmo

DD, glad to see you back -- I was concerned for your safety.

so lets get this ball rollin'....who's goin' first???

Is there a map?

i live here...tell me what to look for....i want to help.

Im so happy it was not just me reporting that something did not feel right about this place. Thank you for checking it outQ!! You all are super trouper monkeys!!

I can help with this area . just ask and Ill tell you. I will look for a map tonight

I witnessed something weird regarding that Ingram case when it was happening which I would like to share with you and sister - do I send this info thru klaas?

DD, I think this was what you were attributing to Wayne Watne.  Love posted it on another thread:

This seems quite eerie to me...


Wayne Gay??

Turn off them damned lights and look up!!!

Male
50 years old
Mount Vernon, Washington
United States

Last Login: 6/11/2009
Mood: amused

Wayne's Blurbs
About me:
I am a 48 year old amatuer astronomer.
I love spending the evening out under the stars, gazing at the wonders above.
I also image the skies looking for nebulas, galaxies, and other distant places.

Cited:

http://www.myspace.com/waynemgay

I would say yes or for DD
To find me
check my profile

Oh gosh, I've spoken with Randy, many many times!  He is/was the Director of the Northern Chapter of California’s Ritual Crime Investigator’s Association.  I last spoke with him in Sacramento, CA back in the 90's.  Yes, he definitely is an expert.  He and I have, among other things, spoken together a great deal about how often LE turn their backs on satanic ritual crimes, and/or demands a gag order on the media ... so as "not to upset the public". 

The public will never ever understand, believe, or come to accept that ritual crime DOES happen in different states and beyond, until/unless LE stops making what they find so dang hush-hush from society. 

Amazing that we both know of Randy.  He may have his limitations, yet is by far the best I've ever encountered who knows about this stuff.   

Wyks, the public doesn't want to wrap their heads around this -- so much like in the Cantu case.  I did see a post where a hearing in Cantu has been moved to Monday.

DD,

After reading this plea for some type of communication from the one responsible for Lindsey's disappearance, am wondering...... when did Campbell begin leaving cryptic messages in Lindsey's guestbook???  Was it after you wrote this post or before?   ::MonkeyEek::

Going in another direction with Campbell..... I realize that there is a concern that he seems to have disappeared himself.  Perhaps he had nothing to do with her disappearance, but has info about that.  Am wondering if he is in some sort of 'protective custody'? 

Wyks, did you have a chance to read the Adam Campbell thread?

I agree with you Sister, there is much truth about how evil some human beings are capable of, that the public does not want to hear, believe or accept. 

It's the same thing that happened with domestic violence, no one wanted to believe that it was happening or even hear about it.  It took a long longgggggg time for the public to wake up, start to listen and look around them at the reality of the world, then finally begin to accept things as they are. 

Those of us in the world who have been victims/survivors of ritual abuse NEED to start talking, keep talking about what our truths are, what reality IS when we see it and hear of it, just as domestic violence victims/survivors had to do.  Just as incest victims/survivors had to do.  And etc.  It's the only way to make the public get to a place where they are able to hear truth, as uncomfy for them as it is to hear and believe. 

Wyks, you and DD need to talk
  :smt024

No not yet, Sister.  I followed what was written about him in the main threads.  Took me three full days to get thru just the main threads.  LOL  I'll mosey on over to that thread now.   ::MonkeyWink::

Would love to talk with DD!!   ::MonkeyDance::

I'm not sure how to quote things. But I saw how there was a focus set on a Ministry in Elma. If it's the same one that I'm thinking of, it used to be called Set Free Church. Though I'm not sure what they do now, I know they used to house people who were recovering drug and alcohol addicts. And I have heared that Lindsey's mom runs the Dollar Store in Elma also, if this is true, then the location of her store is about 2 1/2 blocks away from this Set Free Church, and both are located on Main Street.

I know that the preacher who first ran it when it first opened only allowed for recovering male addicts to live there.

And then I discovered I was talking about the incorrect church. New Life Ministries? It looks like the building located on 3rd street which used to be the old VFW Hall. My apologies for the confusion! There is/was a church in Elma called 'Set Free Church' ran by a man that everyone knew as Pastor Kenny, located on Main street.

Troy R Green, pastor of the northwest life center has emailed me. We emailed back and forth several times and I want to share some of what he told me. 

Seems he read this thread and was not too happy with me, which is very understandable, but on the last note of his emailing me, I guess he realized why I said what I did and he decided to "forgive" me.

I did manage to use the opportunity to ask a few questions when he asked me to ask them, so I did.

so I will post some of that in a bit...

I think it will clear up a few things, or if not clear them up, it will give us something else to think about regarding the lindsey case.

by the way the opinion of those at his church is that lindsey is alive

okay after posting I would try to post some things Troy Green and I discussed in hopes to clear up some of this, he wanted me to delete this thread, which I told him this is not my board, nor can I edit, nor does this board delete things. He then was concerned about what I might post.  I assured him I was going to post what he had told me was true and not true etc, so I could get this cleard up and fixed..

so I tried to figure out what to post that we had discussed with would answer some of our questions and concerns about the church and the people there and that lindsey had been there 3 weeks prior and so many other things I had been told concerning lindsey and people from his church...

It was hard to pick and choose what to post, so instead what I have done is XXXXXX OUT the names or the personal info about anyone which might identify them or personal things which have nothing to do with anything but rather were mentions as background info etc. 

so because I do not want anyone to take things out of context and guess the rest, I will just post it all, then it will be there exactly the way it was said. 

From Troy Green to me
Are you double decker or do you have any idea who double
decker might be. I found this e mail on a thread about a church
in Elma and I have some information for this double decker person.


me to Troy
I most certainly am, and I am more than happy to
talk to you all about whatever it is.

Troy to Me
I am not much for typing could you call me xxxxxxxxx

Me To Troy
sorry I do not call people, seriously I just don’t that
is a rule I have. but I am more than happy to email
with you. I would very much like to discuss with you
whatever it is you would like to say. However, email is the only way to talk to me.
just type slow LOL I don’t mind if there are typos etc.
or if it takes awhile, but I do think I will be interested in what you have to say.

Troy to Me


Hi
My name is Troy Green. I am the founder and Pastor
of Northwest Life Center in Elma Washington. I partially
suspect that I would know your voice if you were to call
me on the phone. If that is the case then your credibility is
next to nothing. If you are a sincere believer who feels more
comfortable not conversing on the phone then I understand.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I just became aware
of the things you are saying about our church. There are only
shreds of truth in the information you are posting. The things
that are true i am willing to discuss. The outlandish accusations
are lies that could only come from the accuser of the brethren
himself. I have nothing to hide from anyone. There are well
respected seasoned veteran belivers in Christ who are the pillars
of this ministry. If you are not just a church basher and a flake go
ahead and e mail me back with serious questions. If you do not I
will refer to this e mail when asked about these things
We have a strong congregation and we know that this will work for
good for us.
Yours In the Love of Christ
Troy Green


Me To Troy
thank you very much Troy for your willingness to discuss this
with me. NO, I am not a church basher by any means, far from it.
However, we all know there are true believers and false ones
and so I might say something about “certain” churches or people
who might be way out there with some quasi-religious beliefs.
But for anyone who is sincere in what they believe I would not
bash them because they are Christians. That is not me at all. I
myself am a believer in God and Christ and I believe in loving
others and helping them. This is my main thing for trying to help
others, that we love God and love our neighbor as ourself, if we
do these two things every other good thing falls in line with that.
I believe all Christian have a little bit different understandings at times
when it comes to all the detail of doctrines, but I am not into bashing
people over doctrines. The only time I speak against churches or
“Christians” is when there is obviously something very very wrong
and harmful going on... they yes, I will do what I can to expose that
sort of thing. And so should every other Christian. So with all of that
said, you should understand where I am coming from.
No you do not know me, I don’t live in Washington and I have never
heard of you until someone emailed me and began telling me all of these
things, so I started trying to figure out why someone would tell me these
things, and to better understand what I was dealing with I started
researching all the names I was given, yours being one. As you can
see if you read all the posts, this all started out because someone close
to your church began telling me these things. I would not be very diligent
idid not listen and try to look into this. I was told Lindsey Baum attended
your church 3 weeks prior to her missing and that her brother Josh Baum
had been attending there. Then when I was told more and more I decided
I better look. So that is exactly what I did. I was getting very concerned
why Lindsey would be over in Elma at a chruch where I was being told all
of these things were going on. I tried to get this person to go ask Bill Roundtree
where that mountain is because I thought perhaps some werido who
attented you church might have taken her out there. we all know many
churches will have some whacked out member who is not what they appear
to be. Your church could have members like that just as well as the next
church, as anyone can pretend to be a Christian and not be one at all.
So I wanted to know why this persoo was emailing me telling me Bill
Roundtree knew where this mountain was etc, and would not tell them so
I could look into where this place was and who might be there and if you
really do understand Satanism and the deep Occult you know why I took
this seriously. On the other hand if you don’t understand it and the person
telling me you do lied, then you probably think I’m some nut... which I
certainly am not.
So what is the truth of it all and what is the outlandish part. If you could
sort that out for me, that would be a great help in itself.. To me nothing is
outlandish when you are trying to figure out where evil lies, and whoever
took lindsey could be very influenced by evil.
and yes things do work together for good, if you love God and are called
according to His purpose. So if this be true, then there is nothing wto
worry about, and maybe everthying will be exposed for what it is, and
you can get to the bottom of this as well as I can.
please tell me what is true and what is outlandish in what I posted. And
then we can begin to sort this out and I can also figure out why someone
told me what they did if it is not true, and I can also try to understand if
someone there does know where these “satanists” (for a better word) might
be taking young girls, or where some werido might have her... and if this is
all a bunch of lies, I want to understand this too, because people lie for a
reason and sometimes the lies tell us more thatn the truth about people.
thanks for discussing this with me. I am not your enemy. We really should
be on the same side here, if you are all on the up and up.
and I don’t call people because there are too many weirdos on the net.
And there are weirdos in churches also, so I just do’t call poeople.

Then I get this from Jared Green, different name,
different email address
If i were to tell you..i lay hands on the sick and see them recover, I
can tell what people are thinking and tell them about it, I can tell a demon
to flee and it will; what would you say? What would call me?


I assume troy has switched computers or something
me to jared
hi is this you again on a different email? sorry for the delay in answering,
I had to cook dinner etc.
before I answer you, is this you? you have a different name and email.


jared to me
Is this who?

another email right behind that one before I answer him
from jared
Oh you mean my dad...nope...this is Son...

then from Troy
You should have done more research before you said the harmful things
that you did. This shows a lack of discernment at the least. If you
want to discuss anything with me I am a Washington State Certified
Chemical Dependency Counselor. I own and operate an agency that
has been in operation for 17 years. You can call Rick Scott at the
Grays Harbor County Sherrifs Department to find out if I am dangerous.
There are people that are not happy about what we are doing as a ministry.
We reach the people that most would not consider desirable for building
a popular church. A few people recently left disgruntled because they
could not be in control. They apparently have resorted to throwing stones.
I do not care who they are because God knows, and each of us will give
an account of his actions.
Bill Roundtree would be happy to talk to you. He is agood man who has
overcome many things in his life. I will not continue to e mail as I am a busy man.
If you choose to continue down the path of bringing accusations against
good people then I ask the Lord to bless you according to His word: Bless
those who curse you. And by the way Neither of the Baum children have
been to our church to the best of my knowledege. I spoke briefly to her mother
today and she says that her son is attending abundant life church in Elma.
A highly respectable minstry.
I am open to any scrituny from anyone who is willing to be transparent. I
will not dialouge with someone who is hiding behind an internet facade.
Too many wirdos on the web. I pray for you that The Lord bless you
and we will continue to pray for Lyndsey. We are just as anxious to see
justice in this case as you are. If you have information that could be helpful
in solving this case Rick Scott is very open to tips. If you or anyone else
believes that anyone in our church has information that would be helpful we
would be happy to talk to the police.
If you feel you need to respond I will read your response but you must understand
I have wasted enough of my time on this already. If you truly want talk to me
about this serious issue check my credentials and give me a call.
May the Lord richly bless you through the power of His pecious blood shed
for all who will respond to His call. AMEN

from me to jared

oh hi, I saw a different name and email and had no idea who you are.
thought I better find out. I get a lot of emails from a lot of people so thought
I better ask. same last name thought maybe he went to another location
and was on a different computer.
so not sure what your point is. Are you wanting to debate beliefs? or see
what it is I believe or what? I don’t see the point really, unless you just
want to see if I have Biblical Knowledge, which I assure you I do, but
where does this lead us?
but I will answer your question.
first of all I never believe things just because someone tells me then can do
these things. We are to test the spirts. And and would ask you by what
power do you do these things, I think that would be the most important thing
to know. And then if I thought it was by the power of God you do these
things, and if I truly believed you did have these gifts, I would say God has
given you gifts in order to do his work... on the other hand if you just say
oh you do these by your own power or by the power of some other spirit,
then I would have to know by what power you do these things.
so i other words I believe God gives people gifts to help them better do the
work He has called them to do.... do all people have all these gifts no, do
some poeple have more than one, yes. We are given them according to
the work He has us to do...
so hope that answers your question. however, I have no idea by what
power you do these thing, nore if you actually are gifted this way or not.
but I do believe people are.

then I get this from Jared

Really, i was just seeing if you would write those things off as “well that
was Jesus, or Paul...but its not for today”. Just making sure...lol..its great
that you recognize that God Gives gifts to people in this day and in this hour.
I operate with the Holy Spirit, in Jesus name; just in the same way Jesus,
and Paul did. Those gifts are for whoever wants them.

We also Believe that Jesus can change those with a past, satanic worshipers
can turn to Jesus and change their ways, so can Sex offenders. Anyone can
change who they are. Just because William Roundtree is associated with them
doesn’t mean he is apart of what they do. I have family (the xxxxxxx) who
are drug addicts, rapist, murders, i can go on and on; but I also have family
that love Jesus, preachers, revivalist, Prophets, evangelists etc.. So to say
that people cant change is not biblical, so whoever is posting that stuff on there,
doesn’t have a clue to what Jesus thinks, feels, or does with broken people
. The Man who was demon possessed by “legion” became a mighty testimony
and lead many to Jesus; the only thing that is wrong with pedophiles is that
they have a demon, and that can be taken care of, as Jesus would say “go”
(in Jesus name of course). So Anyone on your website that says anything
about that is dead wrong.

We love Jesus, and we base everything off of the bible, everything is Word
based! Northwest Life Center is not an occult...We love JESUS and only Him!
All this stuff about “shady people” in our church is true, but I wouldnt want them
anywhere else! We know how to watch them and make sure they dont do
anything to endanger the Kids in our ministry. Are you saying drug users should
be aloud in our church, or murders, rapists, liars, sex offenders, and any other
bad person you can think of? Any ministry should let them in! Church is where
they need to be! more than anywhere else. Jesus would let them in, wouldnt you!

Jared Green

me to jared
oh you misunderstand me completely ... that is not my website. #1...
and I have never said people can’t change NEVER, I am a firm
believer in anyone can change.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(blocked out personal info)
I left a church because they treated these people badly and did not want
them there, and we held services in our houses instead. I am most
certainly for the underdog and the ones no one else wants in their
churches. So you do not have to convince me about these things.
I also know that not everyone in a church is “okay”, seen too much
of that also. And when someone from your church is passing on this
info to me, I have to try to figure out what is going on and why.
I am not the one saying thiese things, they are, and emailing me, and I
am just researching what they have told me, trying to get to the truth.
I was very happy your father emailed me. I thought what a wonderful
opportunity to speak with someone I can discuss this with, but he has
chose to not do so after he told me he wanted to discuss it. that is sad,
so now I have what information someone gave me and nothing to tell
me what the truth is, if this is not true. why is it no one wishes to answer
the hard questions. If someone were to say these things and ask me for
the truth I would certainly be happy to tell them.
I have stated many times that I feel the people who contacted me might
very well by lying, I have stated “if this is true”, and then repoeated what
they say. It is called discussion and trying to get to the truth, this is why I
research and not just take people’s word for it. I want the truth, that is all.
I want to know what the people lied to me about, and then maybe I can
figure out why. It’s important because they also have information about
lindsey baum, and I have to sort this stuff out. We have a young girl missing,
we need to take the time to get to the bottom of this. At least I do.
However, if no one at your church wishes to help, then I have to go
some other route.
I know Bill Roundtree is looking for a “LIVE” lindsey. I know he “walked”
for lindsey. I know he knows where things are located, I know he is not
saying. Well, I don’t say everything either. So maybe I understand.
I know if I had the connections there that I have here or other places, I
would be out there asking the people I know to help find this girl, and
I know you have the connections to these people who have passed on
information to me. I just ask that those of you who know people, get
out there and ask, if I thought my connections here might have info, I would
be right out there among them asking and getting some info to help find this
girl. I “can” right up to people like this and they will talk to me, but I am a
very long ways away. I am sure you know what I am saying. Not just anyone
can find out info from people in these lifestyles, but I know you or your father
or bill roundtree know people. You know about things.. I just don’t understand
why no one will answer a few questions and help or at least go ask the questions
yourself and go out there and look. If you are already doing thing, then I am
glad to hear it, but if you aren’t please reconsider.
oh well, I will leave you with that, and I will go back to doing what I was doing,
the LONG way, and I will hope that someone will have a change of heart
and say something.
Keep up with your ministry, hope you are a great help to those who are
downtrodden and looked upon as though they are unacceptable. Society
is very harsh most of time who come out of these lifestyles. It takes people
like us to understand and want to help them.
I’m not the bad guy LOL I’m not the enemy. I love these people,
all people. And I wish you the best.

jared to me
Ask me the questions....you know 1
1.
2.
3.


Like that i will answer them...

Answer this though if i am right...are you from Missouri?

me to troy

hi troy. I am also very busy ...very busy, but I took the time to email
you, I gave you that. you said you would discuss this with me, now
you won’t. Josh might go to that church now and he also attended
the evergreen church. I have been in contact with many many
respectable people on this case including det mcgowan. And I am
not one to call in nonsense.
I know all about minitries who help those who have been in the drug
world, prison, those on parole etc. I have founded and opertated a xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(blocked out personal info) so you
see we are much alike in the things we try to help with.
You have ME read all wrong. I am told lindsey was at your church
and I had need to know so I can figure out why SO MANY, people
are telling me the same lies. By the way this is not coming from
someone who left your church. It is coming from people right
there who talk to you all the time, who have even walked around
with bill roundtree looking for these things and who speak with
him right there and also speak with you. This is not some disgruntled
person who left your church.
I will continue to get to the bottom of this. God knows me well and
I am never a quitter when I am doing what God has me do. I get
tired, I would really rather have a different calling at times, especially
when it gets as crazy as this case, but I will keep at it until I am finished
doing what I am called to do. If at some point God tells me to quit
I will, not til then.
I find your answer to my email interesting to say the least. You obviously
did not wish to discuss anything with me to try to sort this out.
you only wanted to email me yell at me in your own “Biblical”
way, but you realized I am nothing like you thought.
Troy, I would like nothing more that to prove all of these thing
wrong about what I have been told. I found a great opportunity
to maybe be able to do that when you emailed me; rather you have
chose to let these things stand and not try to discuss them in a
reasonable manner. You were not too busy to go read all those
pages and email me, but now you are too busy to discuss any of it.
I will discuss this with anyone, I have nothing to worry about whatsoever..
I want the truth more than anything and if you have the truth, why
not share it? Why let this stand this way if it is not true?
No one has cursed you. I do not curse people.
But that is your choice to remain silent. I would think if you are
a busy man with no time, that you would make time, this is an
important matter. However, I have no time, but I did take the time
to offere to discuss this with you and put my other matters aside,
and I did it peacefully, with the sincere desire to get to the truth.
It just seems you don’t want to tell me the truth. So, very disappointing.
If you ever change your mind, feel free to email me.

troy to me
Do you have specific question? If so ask

me to troy

I was not the one who contacted you. I did not contact you
to ask you questions. I certainly would not expect you would
answer me if I did. but since you offer.
actually I guess I would like to know the mountain you prayed
against the people going to. The one you prayed for snow to
keep the people out of.
I also would like to know what vision you had that you shared
with the cops wife.
I would like to know which part are the lies I was told so I
can go back and correct them and figure out why this person
emailed me out of the blue and lied to me. If they lied, people
lie for reasons. People who wrongfully point at others have
something to hide.
I would like to know why william roundtree is looking for a
live lindsey. Which nothing at all wrong with that but I would
like to know his thoughts on that.
I would like to know if you or people in your church are going
to help search for this girl and if not, why not.
I would like to know your personal thoughts on what might have
happened to lindsey baum.
I would like to know where you or william roundtree thinks might
be a good place to look.
I would like to know if xxxxx(blocked out a witness’ name) is
a reliable witness
I would like to know the name of xxxx(blocked out name) friend
xxxxx(blocked out name).
I would like to know if xxxxxx(blocked out a minor’s name)
has been to your church
I would like to know why william roundtree is walking around
looking for altars and where do you think or he thinks those
might be
I would like to know a lot of things. Will you answer me, I
doubt it. LOL
but that is not why I bothered emailng you back. I figured
you were mad at me, which obviously you are, but I want
you to know I have someone from your church telling me these
things and I want to know why. I did not contact them,
they came to me out fo the blue, with all this info. has to be
a reason. I didn’t just pick your church out and start looking
at people.
I want the truth, that is all I want. If this perso is lying then what
are they lying about. I have no problem correcting lies.
Isn’t that why you were mad, because you say things are not
true, well then what is not true and what is, and I will fix it.

troy to me

Hi
I now know that you are either xxxxxx(blocked out name) or
you are getting your information from her. I am only upset about
the lies that are being said about the church. Such as kicking people,
Boxing, Cursing people, and things of that nature. I am hard
core for Jesus and I believe God for great and mighty things.
I will answer your questions. But I request that you stop posting
harmful lies about our church. Some may disagree on doctrinal
issues but that is why there are 33000 denominations. Our
doctrine is basically Assembly of God other than I believe the
church will be raptured at the 7th trumpet. There will be no judging
or ruling until the only qualified Judge returns physically to rule and
reign. Until then we humbely submit to the ruling authorities. Any
way here goes
1. We had a prayer meeting one time last winter. We know
that there are certain times that evil people do evil things. We also
know that many of these events occur in rural areas. We prayed
that it would snow so it would be difficult for people to do evil on
a certian occasion. There was no specific mountain and Bill did
not have security in xxxxxxxxx walk to share much with her.
It may have made her angry. Possibly the reason for the stories.

2 The vision was that Lyndsy was still alive and in a cellar
3 I think I may have answered 3. There was very little truth.
4. We all have faith that she is alive. We are praying for her
and beliveing God for a miracle.
5. We have searched some.
6. Since her disappaerence we have been led by the Lord to
pray for those involved in human trafficking. They are taking girls
right off the streets.
7. We felt that in the City of McCleary for a while but now
we have no feelings one way or another.
8. xxxxx(blocked out name) would be reliable to me but
probably not in court.
9. I do not know. I think he has a son xxxx(blocked out name)
but not sure.
10. Bill is not looking for alters but he told xxxxxxxx he thought
he might have found some. Bill kind of reminds me of you.

I have been up front with you and after the initial shock of seeing
all of those lies I wonder if you might be legit. I am interested in
your thoughts but I have come to a dead end and am just going
to keep praying until the Lord tells us not to. I guess my concern
is that I do not know you but you know who I am. I am sure that
you can appricate my concern. You say you want to know more
but I am out of information until I know who I am giving it to. Oh
and I do not recall an xxxxxx(blocked out name) but the xxxxx(blocked out name)
name is faminliar.
I cover this e mail in the blood of Jesus.

me to troy

I fully appreciate your answering my questions. I am not one
to judge a person’s beliefs when it comes to doctrine. I am
famliar with the Assembly of God, I am familiar with many
doctrines. I am familiar with the word of God. I am not a
judgemental person, I am a very forgiving person, and I
love people and try to help them no matter what their beliefs.
I refuse to argue about doctrin as so many do. I am legit,
believe me I am.
I am very glad you believe xxxx( block out name) to be credible,
and I do understand why the courts might not think so, but I am
not a court and I have no problem believing someone who might
not be acceptable to the courts. I want to believe xxxxx(block out name)
and I had written off some very important information because of the
person who had passed that information on to me, because the more
I listened the more bizarre all of this became. This is one reason I
was very happy to see an email from you. I thought what an opportunity
to get to the truth of all of this. So in the midst of my thinking all
of this is getting somewhat unbelieveable ( you have no idea how much
more I was told) I decided not to listen to any more of it and I wrote it
all off, including what I was told about what xxxxxx(block out name)
had said. But a few days ago information surfaced which coincides
with what xxxx(block out name) had said. So I thought today,
well maybe it was true. So this is why I asked if xxxx were credible.
If you say xxxxx is, I will believe xxxxx is.
so there is no mountain... it is sad as I looked for days and nights where
that mountain might be. Such a waste of time.
your vision that lindsey is alive and in a cellar. I am glad to hear this,
and if you feel like telling me more about this. I am a firm believer
that God gives us visions. God has shown me many things, many
times. I am told the police are total non-believers.
I remind you of Bill? hope that is a good thing
I do understand how it feels for someone to know who you are but
you don’t know who they are. I was stalked by a serial killer
who would email me on the net. It was pretty eerie. I am in
contact with people all day everyday I have no idea who they are,
I have learned to live with that, and once you have ever made the
mistake of letting someone on the net know who you are and had
find out they are a serial killer etc and fid out they are stalking you
in real life, you learn not to tell people who you are.. But I fully
understand how you feel. But I will not tell you who I am. I tell
no one who I am. I am not anyone from your area. I live in another
state and have no connections to washington at all..
my thoughts on all of this.....
There are so many people lying it is very hard to tell.
About the time you listen to one person and try to research,
someone else comes and tells you the opposite. It is very
mingboggling why this is happening with so many people involved
in the lies. It is not just one person, it is several. It is almost like
a consorted effort to steer you in the opposite direction. Of course
we know that God is not the author of confusion, so in a spiritual
sense we know who is behind all of this spirtually. But that does not
help us to locate Lindsey.
I know who you are refering to when you say xxxxx(block out name).
I’ve been told about xxxxx also. I have researched xxxx as well.
I have been at this since day one so there are very few people I
have not heard of and researched. It is very tiring work.
If lindsey is alive, in a cellar, how many houses there have cellars;
is this normal for the houses there to have cellars?
I will think about all of this Troy, and I will ask God to help me; as
I always do.
I do not know why I have so many people contacting me and lying
to me, but there is a reason.
Is it possible, in your opinion xxxxxx could know where lindsey is?
Someone did suggest that to me. You seem to know who xxxxxx is.
okay again, I thank you for your answers, it really did help some.
I’m going to believe xxxxxxxx (block out name) and if you know
xxxx you might want to ask xxx about the truck xxx saw on xxxxxxxxx
This information is not out there. I would like to know if that is true.
I have other information concerning that area. It’s possible xxxxx saw
someone who might be connected to the other info about that area.
okay I am going to go and sorry I cannot tell you who I am, but I am
not xxxxxx and I am legit and I am no one you know at all. I’m just
someone who tries to help locate missing persons. I’ve been doing
this for many years.
I will pray for your ministry there and I am glad to see you welcome
those who are many times not welcome anywhere else. Most of them
have a heart of gold, they just get on the wrong path and get lost.
thank you for your time,
there has to be something to all of these lies, it is not only your church
they lied about, it much much more, and they are not the only one doing it.

troy to me
Hey 2D
Twice a week our church has 24 hours of prayer. Bill Roundtree
and I prayed for you tonight. We agreed and decide that best
thing to do is let forgiveness flow to all of those involved in this.
We know that persecutions come to all who decide to live for Jesus.
So I forgive you for the posts and I forgive those who gave you
bad information. The felt impressed by the Lord to give you Psalm 26:5
Good night

troy to me
2D
We had some older people leave the church. They all left together.
They all came there together from a church that split in McCleary.
I was not surprised or upset when they left because they complained
most of the time they were there. They wanted things the way they
had them for years at the church they came from. Some of them got
angry because they could not control me. Shortly after that God
spoke to us that we had become to busy. We changed our schedule
and dropped a few things. We kept what was imortant, prayer.
Our youth group went to a camp about that time so we did not
have youth group for a couple weeks. I have some association with
IHOP but I assure you the research you did and what you found on
them is not accurate. Mostly I am impressed with quality of people
they produce. I will venture to say that part of the reason why you
are getting so many lies about us is like you said, spiritual. We have
prayed for Lyndsy and others many many hours in a family effort to
see justice for the weak. I know satan hates praying saints. I admit
that we are not a conventional church especially for this area but our
doctrine is solid and orthodox. We have a regular Theology class
using Reclaiming the Mind and Wayne Grudem as a text book. Like i
said we do not fit into everyones mold as to what church should be,
but if wanted the results everyone gets I would do what they do. The
girl xxxxxx who has family in the church has some extreme issues
involving her mother and some mental problems. i do not want to
bash her because I care for her very much. Bill and I remember the
night she was there asking questions. It was bizzare. We do reach
out to a lot of unstable people, but I assure you our leaders are solid.
The day the guy came ther to take the pictures there were people
off he street eating, they may not have wanted thier pictures taken,
I understand. The police are very familiar with us because we are
right across the street and have 24 hour prayer twice a week.
I hope this clears up a few more of the mis conceptions. I could
probably go on much longer.

troy

me to troy

troy, can you tell me if northwest life center is also set free church,
or what is the connection or difference. People keep getting them
mixed up... but I was under the impression William Jay Roundtree
is with your church the northwest life center, however I am told he
went to the search as set free church. Others say northwest life
center use to be set free church, so I am not sure. I want to get
this straight so when someone is discussing anything I know which
church they are talking about.
thanks

troy to me

In the late 90’s Kenny Rice founded Set Free Church in Elma.
It is primarily a mens discipleship ministry. At the time i was in
the Assembly of God Church. I began to work closely with Set free
but still maintained my ministry at the AG. Bill became a resident at
Set Free around 2000. He went to California and was in ministry
at a Set Free there. He xxxxxxx and came back to this area.
In the mean time I dicontinued my affiliation with Set Free in Elma.
Primarily over doctrinal issues. In 1995 Bil came to me and
asked me to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I did.
Shortly after that God called me to start Nothwest Life Center
in October 2006. Bill in the mean time was in the AG in California.
In 2007 he came and joined us here at Northwest Life Center.
Set Free is a differsnt work altogether but we associat with them often.
I talked to a detective today and told her what was going on.
I invited them to come and interview our leadership team and
bring a polygraph machine with them. They are familiar with you
and told me to do my best to ignore the things on the internet.
She assured me that most people do. She also informed me
that they think very highly of our minstry and the work we do
with the broken people of our community. Her words were,
“Your doing a great job, keep up the good work.” By the way
can you delete that thread since most of it is false? It seems
that everyone wants to read it now.
Troy

me to troy

troy that is not my board, I am just a poster there, we don’t
even have “edit” capabilities to change anything. And I have
asked them to delete things from there, they won’t.
thank you for explaining how the churches are different.
I had thought they were, but I guess Bill showed up at the
search and they all signed in as “set free church”, ... I was “told”,
so that confused me about if the churches were different.

troy to me

In all fairness I would like to see what your going to post
about my comments. i belive that there has been enough
mis information already.

me to troy

I was going to post the things you stated in your emails saying
which things were not true, I would think you would want me
to do that. I told you if you would tell me what is not true I would fix it.

Am reading thru here, and just want to make a comment.  Most satanists and the occult, etc.  consider "Zion" to be located on Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada.   Yes, many of their local activities are held in all parts of western WA, thruout the year...  with their huge annual "meeting" (a gathering of all the local groups) on Vancouver Island. 

Trust me on this... I know from personal experience, having been born into a cult, in the south western area of WA.   Near enough to McCleary to understand how ALL this stuff fits together.  Incl Lindsey's disappearance. 

Y'all are on the right track. 

And while I'm here, let me point y'all to this group, if you haven't read the posts on it elsewhere:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraysHarborOccultists/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraysHarborOccultists/)

They had a camp-out "meeting" (with rituals), near McCleary, at the same time that Lindsey went missing. 

Are they connected in some way to the "churches" in Elma and the McCleary area?  Perhaps........

DD, I don't even know if you read here anymore, or if you still need this info.  However, for what it's worth.....

I figure you are talking about the closest time for mercury retrograde for when Lindsey went missing? 

Mercury went retro on May 7th, 2009 at 2 Gemini- 12:55 am EST... and ended (went direct) on May 30th, 2009 at 22 Taurus - 9:18 pm EST

The next time Mercury went retro was on September 7th, 2009 at 6 Libra - 12:39 am EST ...

http://www.alphalifetrends.com/mercuryretrograde.html (http://www.alphalifetrends.com/mercuryretrograde.html)

Just putting this here from Sebastian:

http://www.seattlepi.com/archives/1989/8901120145.asp

SATANIC CULTS: EX-FBI AGENT FEARS FOR SOURCES
By James Wallace P-I Reporter
THURSDAY, May 4, 1989
Section: News, Page: B1
An ex-FBI agent who claims there are satanic burial sites in Mason County said yesterday his informant who knows details about the killings is afraid to come forward because he fears for his life.

The informant knows of seven burial sites in Mason County, including one that contains the bodies of at least 20 people, Ted Gunderson said. But the informant is not willing to talk with authorities about the murders.

"If people talk, they die," Gunderson said.

He said an Olympia man was murdered in 1987 in Grays Harbor County because he was helping him uncover evidence about satanic cults in this state.

"There are extensive satanic activities taking place in Washington state, particularly along the coast," Gunderson said.

But law enforcement officials said there is no evidence to support any of the claims being made by Gunderson about bodies buried in Mason County or satanic activity there. And authorities in Grays Harbor County said they investigated the murder of the Olympia man and found no evidence linking his death to a satanic cult.

Gunderson said he is trying to find someone in Mason County with knowledge of the grave sites who is willing to sign a search warrant that law enforcement officials will need to dig up the bodies.

Only then, Gunderson said, is he willing to sit down with authorities and tell them what he knows.

He said he has not personally seen the burial sites, but he has been told of their location by his informant. He said he does not have any information about the victims.

"These people have been killed over a period of years," he said.

His comments came in a telephone interview from his office in Santa Monica, Calif. Since leaving the FBI in 1979, he said, he has investigated satanic activities around the country. Gunderson spent nearly 30 years with the FBI and retired as senior agent in charge of the bureau's office in Los Angeles.

He caused a stir in Mason County this week after he appeared on the syndicated "Geraldo" television talk show, which discussed the recent cult- like killings of at least 15 people at a ranch in Mexico.

"The next burial ground that we will learn about will be in Mason County, Washington," Gunderson told host Geraldo Rivera.

In the interview yesterday, Gunderson said he has been investigating satanic activities in Washington state since the early 1980s. He said he has many "reliable" sources in the state who have helped him. Some of those sources are working from inside the cults, he said.

Gunderson said he became interested in satanic activity when he investigated the case of Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, a Green Beret captain convicted of killing his pregnant wife and two daughters in 1970. MacDonald claimed a hippie cult killed his family.

He said he also worked as an investigator with Maury Terry, who wrote "The Ultimate Evil," a book about the Son of Sam serial murders in New York.

Gunderson said he is reluctant to give authorities in Mason County details of what he knows until he finds a witness willing to step forward.

"If I turn this over to the wrong law enforcement officials, I could blow the whole thing," he said, explaining there are members of satanic cults throughout society, including police agencies.

"This element has infiltrated every level of society," he said. "It's big, and involves heavy-duty, intelligent people . . . doctors, lawyers, prosecutors, police, airline pilots . . . every walk of life has been infiltrated."

He pointed to what has happened in Thurston County, where authorities are investigating satanic-type rituals and have charged three men, including a former deputy sheriff, in a sex-abuse case.

He said hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people are involved in satanic activities in this state.

"Their best weapons are fear and secrecy," Gunderson said of the cults.

Gunderson said a "hit man," who was working for a satanic cult drug network, operated out of Shelton in Mason County for a time. The man was arrested last year in California in connection with two contract killings in that state, he said. Gunderson declined to name the man.

"I have enough heat on me now," he said. "I don't want his buddies coming after me. They have come after me in the past."

Mason County Sheriff Bob Holter declined to go into detail about any of the claims made by Gunderson.

"There is no evidence that there is any validity to anything that he has said," the sheriff said.

Gunderson said the hit man likely was responsible for the death of Larry Gearon in Grays Harbor County in 1987.

Gearon was killed because of what he knew about satanic activity in this state, Gunderson said.

"He was working for us. He was discovered," Gunderson said.

Gearon, 38, of Olympia, was found dead March 12, 1987, just off U.S. 12 about two miles north of Malone in Grays Harbor County. He had been shot several times in the head.

Gunderson contacted the sheriff's office shortly after Gearon's body was discovered and told officials the death was linked to satanic cults.

Grays Harbor sheriff's Sgt. Rick Scott said he and Inspector Mike Whelan spent much of April and May of 1987 pursuing Gunderson's claims.

But Scott said Gunderson failed to provide substantive details and claimed to have "an informant" who was supplying him with the information.

Gunderson refused to name his informant, or provide specific details that could have corroborated his story, Scott said.

"If Mr. Gunderson today has any further information we're again asking him to provide it, if it even exists," he added.