Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Sorry about the early move but at the rate the last thread was going, I'd be up all night waiting on page 100  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I'm hoping this new search today brings us closer to finding Lindsey.

I've been checking this thread on and off since late this afternoon myself...

I hope tomorrow is the day Lindsey is found.

"It could happen!" from Angels in the Outfield

kim c...

on your last post over on the other thread...

about checking the emails, etc, yes I do that sometimes too but I just never did it with adam as I had something else I was doing about him, and so hmmm on those. 

I know he has an AIM account somewhere, don't know what it is, really did not look but he has one.  I think it imight be an old one that has not been used in awhile. 

I am wondering if he hooked up with someone who is homeless and went with them here and there.  I am guessing, but it seems possible to me considering what I know. if that is the case, homeless people can be here one day and gone in the next, or in an hour etc.  just get in the car and drive to wherever, then come back again, who knows. 

what gets me is all this stuff going on in Roy and ft lewis.  too much stuff going on. 

I still am wondering about the white car.  It seems there were several people seeing this white car (I think), can't be sure but so the local rumor mill has it.  just stuff I am hearing from locals.  I hear a lot of things but you can't tell if the people really know or if someone is mistaken, a lot of conflicting stories coming out of mccleary.  one person says this, another says no that is not right, etc.  so I bet the police are getting some really messed up info, and then I am hearing there are people who will not tell the police anything, so hmmmm... so it is like people know things there, but either the right info is not getting to the police, or the police are not listening to some things, or there are people who know things and will not talk to the police.  so what a mess.

KimC wrote:

Yes, these emails are attached to the address in Battle Ground, Washington.  300 SW 7th Ave. #505  Battle Ground.


300 SW 7th Ave. #505  Battle Ground

BATTLE GROUND, WA
VANCOUVER, WA
GREELEY, CO  he has a CO ip also hmmm

Possible Relatives:

CATT, WALTER R
CATT, KATHRYN L (Age 56)
ONEEL, SHAWNA M (Age 32)
CATT, BRADLEY M (Age 31)
RIDDELL, CANDY M (Age 42)
CATT, DELORES M

Possible Roommates / Associates:

DAVIS, JACKIE DISTEFANO (Age 83)
PHERNETTON, DANACRAFT L (Age 54)
CROSS, DANNY MARVIN (Age 59)
RODGERS, MARGARET L (Age 90)
SWALLING, JULIETTE E (Age 94)
 

hmmm this is the household for that address, I see also connected to colorado.  one of the ip's of adam routes through colorado, I did not really follow it to see why or what it was, maybe I should. 

oh and just to clarify this info,
colorado is not where he was 2 states away

and now I wonder if he has disappeared? hmmm

I wonder if he is in jail?

Name: Dana Moore Phernetton
Birth Date: Oct 1955
Phone Number: xxxxxxx
Address: 18952 Wisconsin Dr, Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin 54729-0201 (1993)
[Rr 8 Pob 193, Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin 54729-0101 (1989)]

I can't get those addresses to come up. 

looks like she is in WI at one time, so was the sex offender arrested out of montesaro, he was wanted out of WI....

hmmm same address same dob
Name: Danette L Phernetton
Birth Date: Oct 1955
Address: 18952 Wisconsin Dr, Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin 54729-0901 (1993)

same address & phone
Name: Mark A Phernetton
Birth Date: May 1960
Phone Number:xxxxxx
Address: 18952 Wisconsin Dr, Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin 54729-1001 (1993)
[Rr 8 Pob 193d, Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin 54729-0401 (1993)]
[316 Waterloo Rd, Marshall, Wisconsin 53559] 


Name: Mark Phernetton
Address: 18952 72Nd Ave 
City: Chippewa Falls 
State: Wisconsin 
Zip Code: 54729-7317
Phone Number: zzzzzzzz
Residence Years: 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 

not one of these addresses are coming up. hmmm are they real addresses?  they must be, look how many years mark lived there.  wonder why I can't get them to come up?

how would adam be tied to these poeople I wonder?

PHERNETTON, MARK A (Age 49)

Associated names:

 PHERNE, MARK ALLEN
 PHERNETTON,  M
 CHIPPEWA FALLS, WI
CHIPPEWA FLS, WI
WEBSTER, WI
MARSHALL, WI

Possible Relatives:

PHERNETTON, DANETTE L (Age 53)

Possible Roommates / Associates:

MOORE, SETH T (Age 28)
SPRAGUE, ERIN N (Age 31)

oh crap I was punching in washington instead of wisconsin duh, let me try them again
 

other places showing up with the above addresses

frisco CO
pheonix az

I'm not connecting up anywhere with adam yet

Wisconsin Marriages, 1973-1997
about Mark Allen Phernetton
Name: Mark Allen Phernetton  
Estimated Birth Year: 1960 
Age: 27 
Gender: M (Male) 
County of Residence: Burnett
Spouse: Danette Lavonne Moore  
Spouse's Estimated Birth Year: 1956 
Spouse's Age: 31 
Spouse's Gender: F (Female) 
Spouse's County of Residence: Eau Claire 
Marriage Date: 16 May 1987  
Marriage County: Polk 
Certificate Number: 006999 
Microfilm Roll Number: 21 
 

Minnesota Birth Index, 1935-2002
about Mark Allen Phernetton
Name: Mark Allen Phernetton  
Birth Date: 14 May 1960
Birth County: Hennepin 
Father: Harold Lloyd Phernetton
Mother: Rosemarie De Mars  
File Number: 1960-MN-001352 
 

Minnesota Birth Index, 1935-2002
about Mark Allen Phernetton
Name: Mark Allen Phernetton  
Birth Date: 14 May 1960
Birth County: Hennepin 
Father: Harold Lloyd Phernetton
Mother: Rosemarie De Mars  
File Number: 1960-MN-001352

mmm no ties to adam I can find yet, hmmm
how does he tie to these people? hmmm

adam is tied to these through the same phone number

 YAKIMA, WA
KENNESAW, GA
COLUMBIA, MD
VIENNA, VA
CHATTANOOGA, TN
TAMPA, FL
CARRSVILLE, KY
BERRIEN SPRINGS, MI

Possible Relatives:

PATTERSON, GEOFFREY E (Age 44)
PATTERSON, GARY B (Age 71)



YAKIMA, WA
LIND, WA
PASCO, WA
GRANDVIEW, WA   

KENNESAW, GA
YAKIMA, WA
CHATTANOOGA, TN
COLUMBIA, MD
VIENNA, VA
READING, PA
SILVER SPRING, MD
TAMPA, FL
BERRIEN SPRINGS, MI
CARRSVILLE, KY

 Possible Relatives:

PATTERSON, ALICIA W (Age 44)
PATTERSON, GARY B (Age 71)
PATTERSON, RACHEL KATHRYN (Age 69)
 

When you go to the site that MamaMouse was referencing. You ONLY see this. I saw no man named Kermit. That frog photo is the sties logo. It does not state it is Kermit.

(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6526/frogsite.jpg)



NO link to Kermit's photos.  This link takes you to a photo that was uploaded and posted at SM.

It is not part of that WhiteHouse or alleged man standing there that is named Kermit as was implied.

http://img389.imageshack.us/i/shoeallcomparisonak2.jpg/?a=V&ci=0&rt=4

The reason I know that is because I do not have an image shack account. I do not live in that white house.

Good morning Monkeys

They may be searching again today.


Fresh eyes join search for missing girl.....

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51941307.html

Pasco, Washington?  Karl S. Goering, possibly?

I'm going to throw this out here for speculation.

What if Adam Lee Campbell did not create his own MS pages.  What if Adam Lee Campbell did not create this adamcampbell65@yahoo.com email address that is associated with this email address?  What if someone else, wanting to thwart attention away from himself, created all this as a diversion? This has been my theory all along.  Perhaps this is someone who Adam met in jail or someone who was not in jail but had knowledge or contact with him.  Perhaps through some sort of prison outreach?  We've talked about this before.  Elma?  What are some of the activities of the Evergreen Christian Community Church in McCleary? 

Perhaps, as you say, the people in McCleary are not saying what they know ?? Perhaps this is because the answer is right in front of their faces?   

Please say a prayer and light a candle for Lindsey, that she will be found.
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=FLB

Thanks Karma.

One month too late.  IMO.

In the process of elimination ... homes and property within that two block stretch from home where Lindsey was witnessed by a neighbour should have been searched at the getgo.  Residents should of been considered persons of interest and brought in for questioning.

In the process of elimination ... the home and property of Melissa Baum should have been search at the getgo.  When you consider the revealed dynamics encompassing Lindsey's brother ... Josh Baum should have been considered a person of interest and brought in for questioning.

In the process of elimination ... the home and property of Wayne Watnee should have been searched at the getgo.  When you consider where this man resides in relation to the the Baum residence and ... his connection to both Linsey and Josh ... this man should have been considered a person of interest and brought in for questioning.

It is my prayer that behind the scenes the respective questionings and searches did take place and ... were not reported.

Janet

++++++

Fresh eyes join search for missing girl
Story Published: Jul 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM PDT
Story Updated: Jul 28, 2009 at 6:15 PM PDT
 
By Luke Duecy  Watch the story MCCLEARY, Wash. -- It's been more than a month since Lindsey Baum disappeared while walking home from a friend's house, but investigators are not giving up.

On Tuesday, detectives from Pierce County joined the search, hoping to turn up new leads or tips in the case.

They searched homes, trash cans and crawl spaces near where Lindsey was last seen, and cadaver-sniffing dogs were also brought in to comb the area

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51941307.html

  ::MonkeyCool::

i agree, i really enjoy reading your posts and i really like when you remind us of the ockham's razor!  i will be very suprised if they don't find something within the mccleary town limits

You know I agree with you on this. The answer to this is not going to be complicated. The simplest questions have to be answered first, and then move out in concentric circles to a more far reaching investigation. This seems not to have been done, and much time has already been wasted with days of no searching or investigation.  ::MonkeyNoNo::

I agree.

Is it incompetence or ...

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Janet

Either these are the most inept l.e. in the state OR they already have an idea what happened to Lindsey and are not saying OR they are covering for someone.  Which is it? I don't know.

This is just crazy.  She did not vanish without a trace.  If the dogs did not pick up a scent, they need to get new dogs.  These dogs are trained for this kind of thing.  There has to be a scent.  They are not telling what they know.  IMO

Reader comments:

Misha2  ·  31 minutes ago

There is a little boy missing out in Boise,Idaho. His name is Robert Manwill. Does anyone out there believe that they might be connected? Robert went missing on Friday July 24,2009 and Lindsey went missing on June 26,2009 it was also a Friday.The authorities are checking along Interstate 84 and it runs all the way into Clark County,Washington.I hope and pray that both children will be found.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51941307.html

I've been following the case of this little guy, and I personally don't think there is any connection.

I hope you are right, and LE is not telling what they know, otherwise I hate to say this, but it looks like a botched case right from the start.

I do not know how to bring posts from previous threads in to this one so if someone could help I'd appreciate it.  There is a photo of the Northwest Life Center in Elma under the "Weirdos Connected to the Churches and Strange Going ons"  Page 3

The church is "White" and the reader board says "he came to set the captives free"  Could this have anything to do with Adam Campbells messages?  Also, the reason I was looking there was at one point there was discussion of a SO ex police officer that was living up by Hood Canal - this was talked about when George Woodard and Michael Feezer were being looked at - does anyone remember who that person was or where that would be in all of this information?

Is this what you wanted?

(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww157/Fannymae65/whitehousechurch.jpg)

When a "Cold Case" detective takes a look at one of his cases, he goes right back to the VERY BEGINNING. This certainly seems like a cold case as no real movement has been made.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5683.40

This is the page that I got the picture I posted above.

from the above article
On Tuesday, detectives from Pierce County joined the search, hoping to turn up new leads or tips in the case.

They searched homes, trash cans and crawl spaces near where Lindsey was last seen, and cadaver-sniffing dogs were also brought in to comb the area

______________________________________

why if the feds have been there before, would they need the pierce county LE to turn up new leads?  hmmm  sounds like to me that pierce couty might have already had some leads and now they are involved in this case.  why would you just pick out some other county to come over to dig up leads.  Wouldn't that be saying that Grays Harbor County can't do the job, or the feds did not do the job? 

I don't believe they brought them in just because they wanted someone else to come find leads.  I personally really have to wonder if there is some tie to this case in Pierce County and now they are part of the case. 

Also we see from the above article they did have cadaver dogs there, IF the article got it right?  you just never know about the news..

grrr on above post.  I do not know how to snip and quote and post. ugh I always get it in the wrong place

Kermit

May I ask where you saw this from MamaMouse?
You DO know who MamaMouse is, don't you?

Shades of GM and banned ex-monkeys?

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

I'm confused who is MamaMouse?  ::MonkeyConfused::

[/quote]

Is this what you wanted?

(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww157/Fannymae65/whitehousechurch.jpg)


[/quote]

You sure this wasn't hanging outside the Courthouse, because by the look of things, it's a revolving door up there on Repeats, SO's and the like  ~

( & with continuous budget cuts, it's not going to get any better ) ::MonkeyNoNo::

Try & have a good day Monkey's  ::MonkeyAngel::

Me too NoRose....i'm confused about the whole post actually...did someone really think Kermit lived in that house?   ::MonkeyEek::    ::MonkeyConfused:: 

  ::MonkeyConfused::  I don't know

I am not sure this is where this should be discussed. JMO

I know Fanny - I'm not dwelling on it really....i was just confused by the post but dont think it has anything to do with Lindsey.

I am just patiently waiting for news on Lindsey....and praying that the news will be she has been found safe and alive.

Is this what you wanted?

(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww157/Fannymae65/whitehousechurch.jpg)


[/quote]

You sure this wasn't hanging outside the Courthouse, because by the look of things, it's a revolving door up there on Repeats, SO's and the like  ~

( & with continuous budget cuts, it's not going to get any better ) ::MonkeyNoNo::

Try & have a good day Monkey's  ::MonkeyAngel::


[/quote]
Yes it was thank you Haddie McFaddies mom!

Are there additional searches going on today?    I can't find anything on the news.

Interesting article - nothing new though

Search for missing girl continues, more publicity is needed

http://www.lakestevensjournal.com/editorial/article.exm/2009-07-28_search_for_missing_girl_continues__more_publicity_is_needed

Muffy.  
Feel free to delete my post.
I saw that  post and responded.
Sorry, won't do THAT again, lol

Carry on

Art~  I'm sorry, I can't delete your post.  It's best left for Klaas. 

Let's all get back to finding Lindsey  ::MonkeyAngel::

AZSunny - I am not sure but I would hope so.  I cant find any news either   ::MonkeyWaa:: 


Hi Muffy!

Good afternoon Leroy. 

haha, I am not quoting that message post again LOL, for some reason it keeps putting everything new up in the quote.  LOL

I HAVE to find adam campbells birthdate. 

should be 1978 .. I thought I had it and now can't find it.  I really really really need his birthdate.  if I have that I can find some other info I really realy really need. ugh.

This says they have a search center set up.


If you are interested in volunteering the center will be opening up early next week at 211 Simpson St. in McCleary. All volunteer searchers must be 18 or older with ID. Anyone younger or with kids are welcome to pass out and distribute flyers or ask at center if there is any other way to assist.

http://www.lindseybaum.com/donations
 

is this a key word
TROBULE
and what might that be

another thing he does is keeps SMILE LAUGH  CLEAR 

these are key words

do they mean anything?:  I don't know

CLEAR=McCleary ???

that is the building they "pulled" and "decided" not to "get involved"

see you see that too, and I also see all this SMILE  as maybe Smiley. 

I just wanted to see what someone else thought.

I am telling you he is coding stuff, but it's such a mess. 

maybe he is ONLY just talking like that.  I don't know.  LOL

he will also say Clearly

DD  - I found Adams DOB...it was in the last thread

         3922    M    i    Adam Campbell THOMPSON was born on 11 Jun 1978 in Tacoma, , Washington, USA.

I've been sparadically reading bits and pieces of this case, too hard to follow for me.  That just jumped straight out at me. I never even thought SMILE=Smiley!  I can only imagine what crap you're digging through. 

Where is Lindsey? :gaah:

http://www.ascdeaf.com/blog/?m=200608
<snip>
 An interpreter who is familiar with the concept of a “word salad’, for instance, would recognize a Deaf person’s incomprehensible string of words as a psychiatric symptom and be able to communicate this to the hearing professional. An interpreter with no prior exposure or knowledge of word salads, in contrast, might unintentionally try to “clean up” the Deaf person’s signing so that it makes sense to the hearing professional, unaware that an important psychiatric symptom is unconveyed in the process.
<snip>

Is Adam hearing impaired?  Or has a learning disability or communication problem?

Maybe his messages are a code, I don't know.  But I was also considering the above.

that is not him leroy.  that is someone, someone found and had wondered if this was also adam campbell, but I don't think that is the same person.... it might be, but I just am thinking it isn't.  the thing is I have to be certain I have the right birthdate, or what I am trying to do will not work LOL   but thank you so much for trying to find that, you probably went to a lot of trouble searching for it ugh

He is hearing impaired.  I cant decide if these messages are coded or not.

yes he is deaf.  and he does use an interpreter.  but we also have to remember, he posted on lindsey's guestbook saying he could help.  So he must at least THINK he has some information to help.  I asked someone at the grays harbor le if if it could turn out all gobbly gook if he were deaf, they said it could. 

see this is why I think it is a combination of his wording because he is deaf, and ALSO because he is trying to say something without saying it.  so there are two things going on here.  this is why it is so hard to figure out.  if it were ONLY coded, I think I could figure this out, but being we add to it that he is deaf and needs an interpreter, it really messes it all up.  Hopefully when the police communicated with him he told them what he knows.  he did not just go post on the lindsey guestbook just because he randomly found it and had nothing better to do... that is my thought

Yes MuffyBee.  On an earlier thread somewhere its listed on his SO page that he is hearing impaired.

no problem DD....i just want to your previous posts and should have read forward a bit.  Well that's one date in 1978 that we can rule out at least   ::MonkeyWink:: 

i will look some more

 if Lindsey has indeed been the Mcleary area the entire time, and if now they are really starting to search the area, would she still be there now?  who ever has had her Has had her for a month... ::MonkeyNoNo::

adam is deaf and uses a phone relay interpreter. 

DD - is this it?  Found this in last thread:
Title: Re: Lindsey Baum #2
Post by: JessStar on July 22, 2009, 12:23:19 PM
The following information was obtained from public records:

CAMPBELL, ADAM L
(DOB: 02/1978)
(Age: 31)

Yes it is possible she has been in McCleary the whole time. I think that may be the reason some have not been very helpful in the searches or in providing information to L.E.  Somebody in that town knows what happened to Lindsey.  JMO

I bet that is it, did jessstar give an address with that, so I can be sure ... but she is usually "right on" with the dates connected to the addresses

I bet she did, I just cut the DOB - let me go back and see!

Okay DD, I am beginning this new thread.  I should've probably brought it over from Lindsey part 2, but I am going to throw a whole bunch of stuff out here. 

Let's start with Adam's address in Roy.  Let's assume he had a contact there.  I think he did.  I have a strong reason to believe that there's an association between Adam Campbell and this Karl Steven Goering.

This Karl Steven Goering character, an SO, operating under the radar in Kennewick right now. Non-Compliant.  A Karl S. Goering was a detective in Kennewick too, and I am suspecting that it was possibly his father.   I have a whole bunch of stuff on Karl S. Junior that I posted on Lindsey part 2.  Okay, now that Pierce is in McCleary, that brings us back to Roy, cause Roy is in that county.  Stay with me here, I Will get this out.  Just want to post some stats here again on Karl junior.   Address:  6102 Road 68, Kennewick, Wa.  I have the phone number.  Easy to find.  He married Theresa Ann Forzaglia on Dec 18, 2000.  Child support issues same year.  He's got MS page member #281491802.  Nothing there but a monkey playing a guitar (Is this a slam?)  Another MS member #364234353 with lots and lots of photos.  Born June 18, 1973.  Resembles Adam Lee Campbell, possibly.  Then he's got that fubar page too.  It's in the other thread.  Okay, this is background.

I work in reverse a lot of times.  So, I started in Roy and found that a Dwight Edward Goering used to live in Roy.  He lives in Moses Lake currently.  Address:  1025 Virginia St.  Moses Lake, Wa.  98837.  I have phone too but it's easy to find.  He's on MyLife (formerly Classmates.com I think).  Born September 4, 1962.  Wife Desiree lives at same address.  There's a Donna too, but I believe she lives elsewhere in Washington now. 

On MyLife, Dwight has three friends, one of whom is Theresa Goering in Kennewick, Karl S. Goering Jr's current wife. 

So, this may be Adam's connection from Roy in a round-about way.  I still need to do some snooping around in Roy. 

But, when all is said and done, I think we will find a string of suspects and a string of missing children.  Now, I haven't done this yet, but if we just CONSIDER the possibility that there's a connection here, perhaps the Code (such as it is) may make sense.  I don't know cause I haven't looked at it myself in while.  Do you have the whole message handy to post here again?

Anyway, just more stuff to consider.   :smt120

Title: Re: Lindsey Baum #2
Post by: JessStar on July 22, 2009, 12:23:19 PM
The following information was obtained from public records:

CAMPBELL, ADAM L
(DOB: 02/1978)
(Age: 31)

7104 314TH ST S
ROY, WA 98580-9712
PIERCE COUNTY
(03/2008-Current)   

708 W HOME AVE APT 4
SELAH, WA 98942-1007
YAKIMA COUNTY
(01/2009-01/2009)   

PO BOX 1563
YAKIMA, WA 98907-1563
YAKIMA COUNTY
(08/2005-04/2008)   

PO BOX 1209
YAKIMA, WA 98907-1209
YAKIMA COUNTY
(01/2008-01/2008)   

605 N 3RD ST APT 1
YAKIMA, WA 98901-2227
YAKIMA COUNTY
(07/2004-10/2005)   

807 S 14TH ST
YAKIMA, WA 98901-3345
YAKIMA COUNTY
(09/2002-06/2005)   

108 S 7TH AVE APT 3
YAKIMA, WA 98902-3374
YAKIMA COUNTY
(07/2002-09/2002)   

124 N 5TH AVE
PASCO, WA 99301-5512
FRANKLIN COUNTY
(04/2002-04/2002)
Social Services Facility   

505 EUCLID ST # 2
GRANDVIEW, WA 98930-1522
YAKIMA COUNTY
(12/2001-04/2002)   

720 N 15TH AVE APT 209
YAKIMA, WA 98902-1964
YAKIMA COUNTY
(10/2001-12/2001) 

211 S NACHES AVE APT 209
YAKIMA, WA 98901-4720
YAKIMA COUNTY
(07/2000-07/2000)   

109 E PHILLIPS RD BLDG E
LIND, WA 99341-9755
ADAMS COUNTY
(03/2000-03/2000)
 
 

so now that they know the heat is on, you think they would still have her in McCleary?

I want to make a correction to my last post.  the current address for Karl Steven Goering Jr. is in Pasco, Washington.  Not Kennewick, just in case LE of some description in this area wants to pay this guy a visit.

yes that is him, so feb 1978, gee wish they had the DAY, oh well maybe this will work LOL  I will try it . 

I'm pretty sure this is the right Adam Campbell.  He is hearing impaired.  And the 124 N. 5th Avenue, Pasco, WA address comes up as:

      SEWSCDHH Inc

            124 N 5th Ave

            Pasco                       WA     99301

            (509) 543-9644

            -Interpreter Services for Hearing Impaired Employees

maybe we need to start an adam campbell thread on this board.  I have one over on mine but we need one here to discuss with everyone here, I can organize over there and link back to here as we go. 

I started a thread here
Adam Lee Campbell Message & Connections ?
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5816.new#new

Now I did it, DD!   ::MonkeyLaugh::

SWSCDHH is the Southeastern Washington Service Center of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing

yes that would be him. 

And here's all the information on Dwight Edward Goering and all the places he's lived. 

1      Dwight Goering
Dwight E Goering
Dwight Ed Goering
Dwight Edward Goering
Dwight E Georing
   46
   Address Available    Phone Available    Moses Lake, WA
Roy, WA
Graham, WA
Spanaway, WA
Tahuya, WA
Tacoma, WA
Eatonville, WA
Kennewick, WA
Grandview, WA
   Desiree Lynne Goering
Desiree L Goering
Dwight Edward Goering

oh hmmmm, so he has that address to them connected to HIM?  is that what this is?  ::MonkeyDevil::

When I have something to add, I get excited and often don't think about finding the [/quote] and making sure I click behind it !  For anyone new, when you hit reply find this it will always be the last words typed already - click behind it and hit enter twice then type.  But, we all get in the quote boxes no matter how long we have been here.

Jess - where did you find that info of yours I posted?   Can you get a day for his DOB?  Is there one listed on any of the myspace or other social networking sites?

so what does this really mean, why is this address attached to him though, because he uses it?  as a way to go through to talk to him? or does he work there?

kim ----

do you have the actuall addresses for Karl Steven Goering

if not I will go get them, maybe they have the exact same address at some point? 

trying to go through all your stuff and get familiar with it etc

okay I got most of my info up on the new thread

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5816.new#new

kimc...

agree there very well could be many missing children tied to all of this.  it might very well be this is what adam was trying to say. I don't know yet, I am still trying to make sense out of what he is saying.

he might know a heck of a lot more than we ever imagine

Name: Karl Steven Goering
Address: 505 S Olyumpia Mr, Kennewick, Washington 99336-0101 (1993)

Name: Karl S Goering
Address: 4729 W Clearwater, Kennewick, Washington 99336-0101 (1993

Name: Karl S Goering
Birth Date: 1962
Address: 9622 Maple Ln, Kennewick, Washington 99336-0501 (1993)
[823 S Everett, Kennewick, Washington 99336-0101 (1993)] 

so far I am not finding anything connecting to adam.  other than dwight has a Roy address. 
but that just means I haven't found anything, does not mean there isn't one.  still lookig

Reward produces wave of new tips in Baum case
BY JACOB JONES - The Daily World
Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:12 PM PDT


Searchers returned to the streets of McCleary under a brutal sun Tuesday to follow-up on new leads in the hunt for 11-year-old Lindsey Baum.

Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott said about 25 officers and searchers with dogs braved near-record high temperatures to re-canvas areas of town.

“We’re out here sweating our guts out,” Scott said late Tuesday.

A recent $6,000 reward for information in the missing girl’s case has produced a new wave of tips for investigators to check out, Scott said. Surrounding law enforcement agencies including the Aberdeen Police Department, and Pierce and Thurston sheriff’s offices sent officers to help perform follow-up searches and interviews.

“We decided we’d try to reach out a bit,” Scott said.

About six core investigators have been leading the effort to find Lindsey, who disappeared while walking a few short blocks home on June 26. The detectives have found no evidence explaining the 4-foot-9, brown-haired girl’s disappearance, but they continue sorting through thousands of tips.

“I don’t want information sitting,” Scott said, explaining extra officers are helping check out tips as soon as possible.

So far, detectives have not found any clues to send the investigation in a “new direction,” Scott said, but they continue to consider all possibilities.
 

 


Officers and volunteers knocked on doors throughout town Tuesday, asking new questions and trying to reach people missed in previous interviews, he said. Investigators still hope to find the one small piece of information that can move the case forward.

“We were just going around talking to people,” Scott said, adding, “everybody’s just kind of worn out from the heat.”

Two teams with cadaver search dogs also roamed the town seeking any new scents, he said, but the hot conditions limited the available scents and quickly wore out the dogs.

“The heat really is so stifling,” he said.

Scott said detectives and extra officers expect to follow up on new tips in town for at least the rest of the week.

He asked anyone with any potentially helpful information to call the tip line at 1-866-915-8299.

http://**/articles/2009/07/29/local_news/doc4a708a0adde28983338062.txt

 ::MonkeySlide::  Hahaha!NEW!Monkey Slide!  ::MonkeySlide::

I am sorry but the more articles which try to explain what they are doing, the more ridiculous they sound.  It is just me or our their explanations just stupid

LovinLife ~ That's it!  That's the little guy and the exact question that's been nagging at my heart and mind and eats at me from the time I open my eyes in the morning, stays with me throughout the motions of the day, and until I close my eyes at night. 

Where is Lindsey? :gaah:

Where is Lindsey? :gaah:

Where is Lindsey? :gaah:

Thank You !  ::MonkeyAngel::

Where is Lindsey? :gaah:

xoxo

Ok, so they were doing a search yesterday. Does anyone know if they are searching in McCleary again today? Does anyone know if KaraK's home has been thoroughly searched? I know that it was said that Melissa's home had been searched. Have they gone to either place with cadaver dogs? Does anyone know?

its not just you

I don't think the heat was quite as stifling in June as it is now. JMO

well I think the heat would make cadaver scent more detectable, not less?

and they brought in all these other agencies so tips were not just sitting around?  and when did they get all these tips, JUST NOW all at the same time?  and because of the $6000.00 reward?  and it came out when?  and all the tips come NOW? 

sounds crazy to me

if Lindsey has been in McCleary the entire time...and now that whoever has had her, has had a month with her,...if she is still in McCleary, and now whoever has had her knows that the police are going door to door.....is it far fetched to say that she may not be in McCleary now....like today or yesterday moved????

maybe this new search for Lindsey is really a call of get your azz out of dodge they're on to ya?

maybe I just tear things apart too much LOL

but my personal opinion is they are doing something they are not saying and they are trying to say they are doing it for other reasons because they don't want people to know.  All that if fine, but at least make it believeable  ::MonkeyDevil::

Yes, still looking, too, and trying to connect the dots.  In looking at every Goering and family, I came across this interesting site.  Since Adam seems to be familiar with where to go for help, thought maybe he wandered in one of these offices of the state.  It's the 2007 State of Washington Department of Social and Health Services.  And this particular website is a complete listing of all their employees.  And alphabetical too.  There are three Goerings listed and I have looked at all of them.  Just haven't connected the dots yet.  But here's the website in case some interesting names pop out at you.  2007 Arg, out of date, but these are state jobs so you might have people working there for many, many years.

http://lbloom.net/dshs07.html (http://lbloom.net/dshs07.html)

i feel ya  ::MonkeySlide:: ::MonkeyDevil::

I am wondering if they have a suspect etc, and are going around showing that person's photo to people to see if anyone saw this person around anywhere? ??

here is a thought...what if they have found lindsey, or they know where she is, but it would compromise someone/something and so now they are searching to 'discover her' when in fact they knew what was up the entire time..... ::MonkeyEek::

maybe???  i don't know, all i know is that it is hot in McCleary wa this time of year.

Sounds crazy to me also, and besides $6,000 reward is really not that much.

I forget what date the reward was offered, but it has been over a week ago, so they are saying everyone with tips waited a week after the reward to give their tips?  now that makes no sense, so this tells me it is not the reward that brought in the tips and they bring in all the agencies so the tips don't sit there(their reason for the different agencies)

well, sorry it has been a week they would have sit there then, so that makes now sense.  that reward is not what brought in tips.  get real.  so Everyone sees the reward and waits over a week to call all at once hahahahaha   so they have to hurry up and go get all these agencies to help.. sure

Sorry I haven't had a chance to answer those questions earlier. First, with regard to the address for AC, typically the report I retrieve only reports addresses that were used or reported as being a residence. That's not to say AC lived there-it just means he reported it at one point as being his residence. Second, unfortunately none of the reports how the DAY of birth, only the month and year.

 

Thanks Jess.  Is the report you use a paid type search or one you can share? 

“We were just going around talking to people,” Scott said, adding, “everybody’s just kind of worn out from the heat.”

Well, that don't cut it sheriff.     He sounds like a beverly hillbilly.

To be fair about the heat. The WA area has been experiencing a heatwave the past few days with temps soaring over 100 degrees.

It's tough to be out in that kind of heat any length of time. I don't care if you are cops or dogs. Even in a bathing suit it would be hard.

It's a paid service.  The info I posted is gleaned directly from the report.

thanks jessstar..

well I can't find the DAY either, oh well I guess the month and year will work. 

I am wondering on the interpreter thing if he gives that address and phone number to get ahold of him so if he calls there to get the message it will be on some machine which interprets for him.  or... he could have given that as an address and phone number to get ahold of him, so he can understand his messages?  I don't know

or he just said he lived there LOL 

maybe he works there? or did. 

I know the heat is awful for anyone to be in and I am a total dog lover and would never want to see a dog out in that heat... but that is not what I am saying. 

they said the heat was making the scent hard to detect the cadaver scent.  that can't be true.  heat helps detect cadaver scent.  that is the point I was laughing about.  but I guess I just pick apart everything too much,  I just thought that was a crazy statement. 

but I do full well agree, the heat would be awful to be out in.  I feel badly for the people out in it and the dogs, especially the dogs. 

I live in Arizona, it was 111 yesterday, and 108 today. I understand being outside in the heat, but seattle has 45% humidlity on top of that!  I have 5 children in the Seattle area, and my brother. Only one has air conditioning.  Boy are they moaning!  I told them I was going to start charging them AZ state tax if their weather continued. 

DD, just to insert an OT, I have 3 Bichons, and they go to the door to go out, I open the door and then just stare at me 'don't make me go out there!' One goes out, does his duty and jumps in the pool and before i can catch him has run throught the family room and kitchen and back to his crate, which is where he knows to go is he is wet.  too funny.

hehe az sunny...

I know the routine exactly LOL  only mine don't get in a crate, they jump in the bed LOL

do you think they are sending the dogs out there needlessly...like a show of ???  sorry..i expect the worst...always

No, they have a reason to send them out. I'm sure of that.

Why would you think that any dog handler  would agree to send their dogs out "needlessly" to search in over 100 degree weather?  They would not do it for show, I assure you.

::MonkeyRoll::

oh I believe they have a very good reason to have them out there, I just think they are not saying the real reasons they are doing what they are doing or why those other offices are out there. 

I suspect they have a suspect and are trying to find witnesses who might have seen this person/persons in the area... just a guess of mine. 

they might even have the dogs tracking the perp and not lindsey.  to see if the perp was in the area if they have a suspect they can use the scent to track. 

I don't know, just possibilities. 

pierce county being in there really makes me wonder.

Didn't they also say Thurston County and I believe Aberdeen?

they said aberdeen I read, I forget if thurston, I was just zooming in on pierce. 

aberdeen and pierce caught my eye. 

i don't own search and rescue dogs, but i don't know that if you do and le calls on you for help that you really have a choice....maybe a smarter monkey than i can answer....

Several agencies, including the FBI, Crime Stoppers and the Pierce County Sheriff's Office, are assisting in the search.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535201,00.html?test=latestnews

Grays Harbor County Undersheriff Richard Scott told Q13 FOX News that they recently received quite a few tips, so they checked them out on Tuesday with the help of several agencies including the FBI, Aberdeen Police, Crime Stoppers and Thurston, Mason and Pierce County Sheriff's Offices. Pierce County Search & Rescue dogs also helped in the search.


http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-072809-mccleary,0,4668836.story

This is a girl with no means, no money, and no true opportunity to leave. We have nothing specifically that is pointing us in any direction that is going to allow us to rule out any scenario.... this may be a worst case scenario criminal investigation involving a predator or predatory behavior."

If they are really going door to door & have the search dogs out, then I think they believe she is still in McCleary.   I don't know what to think anymore, there is so much we aren't being told.  I do feel that someone in that town knows where Lindsey is or at least what happened to her. I want so much for them to find Lindsey alive & bring her home but, I just have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.  God please let me be wrong about this.

sorry ya'll the 'new' search sounds like a tip-off to me..maybe i'm jaded. ::MonkeyNoNo::

You're certainly entitled to feel that way mamacrazy. But just think about it for a second- that would be one heck of a big conspiracy if it were a "staged" search intended as a tip-off.

Mamacrazy - of course you have a choice.  I'm certain they have good reason to be out there in this heat. 

I agree.  I don't know what they are saying.  It doesn't make any sense.   ::MonkeyConfused::   Sorry to be so blunt but cadaver dogs pick up the scent of decomposition, which I'm sure we all know would be worse in the heat. I don't get what they are doing?

so why the 'big' search now..why now?  why have the basic searches not happened until now??  what is different NOW??  is it that people care? wonder?  i have all the respect in the world for le but why is it so different now than it was a month ago???  sorry to be blunt but if we took the stance that McCleary le took when Lindsey was first reported missing where would we be?  oh chit, and now ya'll will ride me on that...you have to understand...in the interest of ruling people out we have everyone as a suspect....i like to follow Janet..and i agree with most...but can some one tell me really...Who is not a suspect in this??

oh what a mess i hope ya'll get the jist ::MonkeyConfused::

I just think Officer Scott doesn't know a lot about searcher dogs, as was babbling. :)

I don't think he knows a lot about searching for missing children either, IMO. Thank goodness the FBI and other agencies are working on this.

Extreme heat or cold, will limit the amount of time the dog can work between rest breaks to as little as a few minutes. Both air temperature and ground temperature need to be considered. Remember the dog’s nose is working at ground level. Often the hottest parts of the day can be avoided; the dogs can work early in the morning, and in the late afternoon and evening.

Mamacrazy - have you even been following this case?  This is not the first "real" search. 

This is the first article posted in the first thread of this case:

Well, we all can be weary of local LE, but the FBI and members of CrimeStoppers, who are assisting in the search, certainly are not suspects.

Those are great observations about the dogs, pinkangel. It reminded me that heat also causes a scent to rise straight up, as opposed to more linearly, which can make detection more difficult for the very reason you state- the dog's noses are close to gound level.

Those are great observations about the dogs, pinkangel. It reminded me that heat also causes a scent to rise straight up, as opposed to more linearly, which can make detection more difficult for the very reason you state- the dog's noses are close to gound level.

on one hand i'm glad he doesn't know a lot about missing children..i wish most communities never have this issue...on the other....
(a little piece of me, my step-father (now) is LE in ks and i've seen his folder on profiling and looking for terrorist and what have you...it was a (i don't know what you call it ...learning credits???  )  Really?? 

JessStar, I wonder how the humidity there, which i understand is at about 45% would impact this?

THE TRACKING DOGS

Why was Lindsey's scent not picked up by these dogs.  Think about it ... the Maple Street route was taken by her both going to and coming from the Kampen/Williams residence.

Janet

++++++

KOMO News - June 28, 2009

A wide-ranging search was launched early Saturday in the town and the surrounding forests. The town was criss-crossed three times, but not a trace of Lindsey has been found. Even bloodhounds failed to pick up her scent.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/49383897.html


The Daily World - July 2, 2009

Scott said authorities have run into several dead ends with almost no signs of the 4-foot-9, brown-haired girl, who was last spotted wearing a blue pullover shirt and blue jeans.

“I don’t know anything more than I knew Saturday afternoon,” he said, “but I’m not willing to admit that I know anything less.”

Scott said bloodhounds traced the route Lindsey took early on from the friend’s house to her own home, but didn’t find any scent. And in places where Lindsey once played — parks and by the creek — Lindsey’s scent has been vanishing.

The loss of scent could be a combination of factors — the heat on the sidewalk could have dissipated it for instance, he said.

http://**/articles/2009/07/02/local_news/doc4a4cf43c1b1dd881132403.txt


IN THE PROCESS OF ELIMINATION

One month too late!

In the process of elimination ... homes and property within that two block stretch from home where Lindsey was witnessed by a neighbour should have been searched at the getgo.  Residents should of been considered persons of interest and brought in for questioning ... not called by LE inquiring whether they saw anything.

In the process of elimination ... the home and property of Melissa Baum should have been search at the getgo.  When you consider the revealed dynamics encompassing Lindsey's brother ... Josh Baum should have been considered a person of interest and brought in for questioning.

In the process of elimination ... the home and property of Wayne Watnee should have been searched at the getgo.  When you consider where this man resides in relation to the the Baum residence and ... his connection to both Linsey and Josh ... this man should have been considered a person of interest and brought in for questioning.

Janet

++++++

Fresh eyes join search for missing girl
Story Published: Jul 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM PDT
Story Updated: Jul 28, 2009 at 6:15 PM PDT
 
By Luke Duecy  Watch the story MCCLEARY, Wash. -- It's been more than a month since Lindsey Baum disappeared while walking home from a friend's house, but investigators are not giving up.

On Tuesday, detectives from Pierce County joined the search, hoping to turn up new leads or tips in the case.

They searched homes, trash cans and crawl spaces near where Lindsey was last seen, and cadaver-sniffing dogs were also brought in to comb the area

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51941307.html

ya know,,  i guess i haven't been following this as much as ya'll....you've been so much more into it and can give it more energy than i can....god bless momkeys..pray for Lindsey

i guess i haven't been following it AT all.

MCCLEARY, Wash. -- It's been more than a month since Lindsey Baum disappeared while walking home from a friend's house, but investigators are not giving up.

On Tuesday, detectives from Pierce County joined the search, hoping to turn up new leads or tips in the case.

They searched homes, trash cans and crawl spaces near where Lindsey was last seen, and cadaver-sniffing dogs were also brought in to comb the area.

Everywhere you look in this small town there's a photo of Lindsey -- posted in store windows, hanging on the side of a truck parked on Main Street.

Everyone knows her name and everyone wants her to come home.

Spending time here you get the feeling the the girl's disappearance has changed the town. Instead of trading the usual neighborhood gossip, it seems all anyone talks about is what might have happened to Lindsey.

Kevin Pratt lives in McCleary and says he's always keeping his eyes open and thinking of the missing girl.

"Every time I go out in these wooded areas, any time I'm out anywhere I'm looking for anything for anything out of the ordinary."

The investigation into Lindsey's disappearance, which has involved multiple local, state and federal law enforcement agencies, has turned up nothing.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51941307.html

Reader Comment:

catriley123 84p ·  12 hours ago

This is so sad. I imagine the law enforcement people share info with each other, right? I read the newspaper from my old hometown in California, and there was an attempted abduction of a girl around that age, by a man in a white cargo van with Washington plates. I think it was in Santa Maria. As I said, I'd imagine the authorities send out bulletins nationally, so they'd know about this. The Washington plates thing caught my attention.

I hope they find her soon.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51941307.html

I hope they are paying attention to this, a VAN WITH WASHINGTON PLATES

http://www.keyt.com/home/ticker/51341337.html

Man Tries To Lure Young Girl Into VanOriginally printed at http://www.keyt.com/home/ticker/51341337.html

Orcutt, CA-- Residents are being told to keep a lookout for a man driving a white van with possibly Washington State license plates.

Santa Barbara Sheriff deputies received a report Monday afternoon, that a man driving a white van near Hartnett and Cane tried to lure an 11-year-old girl into his van.

The girl said, the man pulled up to her and asked her to help him find a lost dog. The girl told sheriff officials that when she ran to a nearby home to call for help.

Detectives say the suspect is in his 50's and was driving a white cargo van with two rear windows covered by curtains.

If you have any information on a possible suspect, you are urged to call the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department.

It's about a 16hour drive:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub7/CalifMcCleary.jpg)

http://www.ksby.com/Global/story.asp?S=10760272

(snipped)

"They were in a van with Washington plates and no side windows," said 12-year-old Cameron Carter.

12-year-old Skyler Stroop said, "They said he had like, gray hair, yeah. They said like, just to be aware."

Courtnee's close call is the talk of the neighborhood Tuesday.

Sheriff's deputies are looking for a white man in his mid-50s with salt and pepper hair. He is thought to be about 5 feet, 8 inches tall, weighing around 150 pounds. He was last seen driving a white cargo or minivan with Washington plates and no side windows, only a rear window with a curtain.

(snipped)

Regarding the little girl from California and the white van with the Washington plates, that's a pretty significant "coincidence." Has someone passed that on to the tip line?

UPDATE:  I informed the tip line.  I just think that's too coincidental to ignore.  While it is some distance from McCleary, predators have traveled that far to meet who they thought were underage children in sting operations.

Police chase leads on missing McCleary girl
Updated: 07/30/09   1:42 am
 
Searchers returned to the streets of McCleary under a brutal sun Tuesday to follow up on new leads in the hunt for 11-year-old Lindsey Baum, according to The Daily World of Aberdeen.

About 25 officers and searchers with dogs braved near-record temperatures to re-canvass areas of town, Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott said.

A recent $6,000 reward for information in the missing girl’s case has produced a new wave of tips, Scott said. Surrounding law enforcement agencies including the Thurston County Sheriff’s Office and the Aberdeen Police Department sent officers to help perform follow-up searches and interviews.

About six core investigators have been leading the effort to find Lindsey, who disappeared while walking a few blocks home June 26. The detectives have found no evidence explaining the 4-foot-9, brown-haired girl’s disappearance, but they continue sorting through thousands of tips.

Officers and volunteers knocked on doors throughout town Tuesday, asking new questions and trying to reach people missed in previous interviews, Scott said.

Two teams with cadaver search dogs also roamed the town, he said, but the hot conditions limited the available scents and quickly wore out the dogs.

Scott said detectives and extra officers expect to follow up on new tips in town for at least the rest of the week. He asked anyone with any potentially helpful information to call 866-915-8299.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/northwest/story/827963.html

OOPS - sorry....the above article in is regards to Tuesday's search....its early and i thought today was Wednesday!  So I guess there was no search yesterday.

Thanks Klaas
Interesting that the white van guy was also looking for help in finding his lost dog.I sure hope that McCleary LE has fully investigated the man looking for help in finding his lost dog 2 days before Lindsey disappeared.

One month too late.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Wow,  didn't Lindsey's mother say that 2 days before her disappearance a man was looking for his lost dog? Didn't she go to the park to help search....HINKY METER ALERT!!

WHOOPs, posted before I saw this...great minds. 

I don't remember, but was the guy in McCleary  looking for his dog ,also driving a white van??   

If there is a connection here, Lindsey could be anywhere between McCleary and Santa Barbara.  How sad.

JessStar, thanks for reporting this!!

Absolutely.  This threw up a GIGANTIC red flag when I read it.  There are just too many parallels to ignore it.

Exactly, and one just doesn't know, could mean nothing, could mean everything.

this alleged offender fits my profile to a tee...

no offense to anyone digging thru the mountains of sex local sex offenders intended...

but this is more along the lines of what I believe is a hit and run abduction.... and occurred in Lindsey's case...

in town and gone or stopped in town and gone...

::MonkeyWink::

I don't remember if they said what the lost dog guy in McCleary was driving but Lindsey did ask her Mama if she could help hang up flyers and search for the dog.....I'll have to check the last few pages of this thread for that info.

You are possibly right Rob, we are covering all the bases, and there are some interesting "local" links within a 100 radius as well. 

i think there could be a connection here and i'm glad someone called the police or fbi about this... if this is the same person that took lindsey, it would make sense that maybe it was someone local to the area in mccleary or that part of washington state (b/c of the washington plates) and then he decided to flee the area and head south through california where he got the urge to try it again, sadly, if this is the connection we have been looking for, lindsey could be anywhere, but i'd be looking south of mccleary

It is in thread # 2,page #75

Karma wrote:
and
Karma wrote:

AZ, I'm aware of the offenders - and said in my initial post that Lindsey is not in the immediate area and with-in 120 miles. So I do appreciate everyone's efforts.

 ::MonkeyWink::

Good to see you!!!

Someone at WS found these images of Lindsey on Melissa Baum's facebook.

I wonder if this person is heading into Mexico, and might have his license plate capture at the border??

Someone should call the border guards... juss sayin'

VERY possible Rob.  But that darn incident was reported on July 21st, so if he was heading to Mexico, he's there already.   ::MonkeyWaa::

Those look to be a few years old.   ::MonkeyWaa:: ::MonkeyNoNo::My heart aches when I see pictures like that.  She's such a cute girl. 

Sheriff's deputies say they have contacted a man who fits the young girl's description and he does drive a white van.

But as of right now, they are not sure any crime has been committed.

http://www.ksby.com/Global/story.asp?S=10760272

he was inside the gated community, so you would think he had some kind of connection to be in there?  maybe a landscaper/gardener or delivered something?  but you can say you are going in to deliver something and a lot of times the gatekeeper will let you in, or if you have ever been in there before they just wave you on through. 

weird he would pic a gated community to try this?

We had 14 attempted abductions noted in the Amber Dubois case from San Diego to Los Angeles.. and this is the mysterious White Van that has been noted in 3 or those attempted abductions ?? The lic plate possibly being Washington..means just that..possibly.
They need real witness or again they need detectives at ALL gas stations reviewing video and ALL street intersection Video and ANY video surveillance along the freeways that may identify this van..
It could be relative to Lindsey.. It could be relative to Amber and look at the distance this perp travels !! from Washington to San Diego !

We need real efforts by LE and the F.B.I. as this is possibly a multi state crime..
 IF he took Amber from Escondido and headed to Washington she really could be anywhere along that path..
I hate letting my mind get out that far..

yea i dunno why he would be a gardener or something tho with washington plates

Interesting... DNA test kit !!!

Test his van for Amber TOO.

I agree with you Edward, my first thought on this was hmmm, amber dubois and the white van seen all over southern cali.  we also have to realize criminals will slap another set of plates on the vehicles, commit the crimes and then pull them off.  white vans, UGH... all over heck and back. 

but it makes sense to me that a perp would travel all over the place back and forth and around and around so as not to have evidence showing up all in one place.  these guys are mobile.  just pull your van to a campground, camp out a week, go another 500 miles and do it again, leave the victim 1000 miles away.  how you going to keep up with these people. 

you know I just have to go ahead and say this. 

adam campbell said more than those two posts on lindsey's guestbook. 
and part of what he said was, as far as I can figure it out was:

man and woman hide in woods, at lake swimming, in a van, take stolen kids, etc. 
see this is what someone is doing.  does he suspect it?  does he KNOW about it?  but see he mentions the VAN too.  they are all over the dang place. 

Hi DoubleDecker.. You have been doing some great research..
A Migrating worker from Mexico..
My dad lives in Oregon and owns a mobile home park along the coast and half of his renters are migrant workers from Mexico..
So I do think it is very likely that the occupant of this van could be just that.

Sheriff appear to have somebody and I will just cross my fingers and hope for the best..

my initial thoughts in Amber's case were / was a VAN was used - from either New Mexico or Arizona with those state license plates....... it's easy to add in Washington now... I initially thought of migrant workers in construction, food service (vegetable pickers) and possibly vineyard day labors...

Originally, I thought of Arizona, New Mexico and California -

maybe it's time to check Oregon for related cases...possibly a five state crime spree / enterprise.

I had asked a local up there about migrant workers in the area.  they do come in there I was told.  well a lot of times they will work on the tree planting and some of the other forest service contracts, I do know this.  And I was told yes, they do come in the area there.  And there are a LOT Of WHITE migrant workers as well.  And they do travel a circuit from wash, oregon, cali, az, florida, sometimes in idaho and montana as well.  that is the main circuit.  they are very mobile, switch cars like underwear, have vans, campers, travel trailers, motorhomes, all good places to conceal stolen kids.  There is a stolen child ring which has traveled this circuit for decades. 

  ::MonkeyEek:: Very interesting, and he mentions VAN also, now I'm really thinking something is up with this. Does he say white van? And why is he saying this in a guestbook of a missing child, is really the big question I have.

he did not say this part in the guestbook. this was elsewhere.  and all he said about a VAN was in the middle of a sentence  where he mentions VAN, nothing more was said about a van other than this part. 

I know but in the State Law very wrong Man or Woman if who has have "Sexual offender Level" after take stolen Boys & Girls" hide bring go somewhere home or lots many tree hide, motel hide, Van hide, Lake Swimming hide

Rob, some of this has being going on for decades that I know of.  It spans the states I just posted, it is a wide circuit they make.  I have looked at this forever.  its a real mess and it involves white migrant workers also.  they pick fruit, work the forests, and the cotton gins in AZ on the off time, then head to florida, back to cali, then oregon or wash or both, sometimes into idaho/montana for cherries, then back to AZ. start all over again.  they can be mobile, work if they want or don't want with no record of anything, change cars everywhere they go, etc.  its an other world.  you would have to see it to understand it.  it's a whole sub-culture. 

oh I should add, they change their names as often as they change there vehicles.  so they are very hard to track.  if they do not want to be found, you won't find them.

emboldened a portion of doubledecker's post..

interesting that Adam Campbell seems to know underlying info... and un-related to these particular cases, but in the Maddy McCann case - Robert Murat KNEW about the local pedo ring in Praia Da Luz - and told the police and was arrested... and his main associate and business partner - Sergei Malinka - was caught in the act of wiping out several 500 gig hard drives as the police kicked in his door...Malinka was a computer expert from Russia.

Now how do SO's or alleged SO's know these things unless they are peripherally connected - I don't believe in coincidences.

and this is why I paid attention to adam the way I did.  people kept saying he was a Bot, but I knew right off he knew something because I have seen too much of this stuff.  Granted he is deaf and that made a lot of what he was saying come off weird to the point I could not tell how much was INFO CODED and how much he was having a problem relaying info because he is deaf.  but I finally figured it out for the most part, now I can understand him.  He knows what these people do.  and it is about more than lindsey.  It is what they do all over the place.  I honestly believe he was trying to help.  But it came out crazy, but I understand him NOW, but now he has disappeared UGH. 

22% of all federal inmates are illegals..almost all are in CA, NM, Arizona, Nevada, Florida, Texas, Washington, Oregon, and New York. Of course some are in Colorado and Idaho and North and South Dakota.

they bring their bankrupt central American culture with them and all heck breaks loose...

Thanks, but still very strange.

Who was Adam Campbell in jail with and where? maybe someone was paroled that he is aware of...?? It's possible he gained knowledge while in jail of the inner workings of a traveling group..

Criminals, when bored, often speak to each other about their escapades and dastardly deeds.

About the unmarked white van that is used in alot of attempts of kidnapping.  Part of my job is to clear shipments going into the states from Canadian.  3 years ago we had a plain white van.  We were stopped going across the border every time.  We were finally told that the truck inspectors were targeting ANY unmarked white van and it was recommended that we get some logo put on the truck.  Since we now have a logo on the truck we aren't stopped.  If this is happening in border states maybe more people can push their states to inforce the same kind of rule.  It's alot easier to identify a van if it has some sort of markings on it.  I know markings can be changed but it has to be easier then an unmarked white van.  Just a thought.

Two things come to mind:
1.  He is involved and hiding ................ and two, more daunting
2.  He has valuable information on this case (or a ring) and he is being dealt with in a manner in which would silence him forever.  I sure hope LE finds him soon and determines which it is.

Or, in all fairness I guess there is a remote possibility he is just a nut, inserting himself in a case like John M. Karr - but I don't think so.

i think its highly possible that adam campbell is not involved at all in any of this, however is aware of the child ring going through the different states and wants to bring that information to light as a possibility of what happened to lindsey so that someone would investigate it

adam is 31 yrs old, convicted in 1995 in washinton, he was approx 17 at the time.  so he might have got probation or sent to youth authority or who knows, or turned 18 during and in county jail.  if he did go to prison it would be in the state of WASH... and how long would he have stayed I don't know.  my guess he did not go to prison because of his age BACK THEN and spent little time if any. 

I believe he probably hooked up with the HOMELESS and this is where he has been in and about all this mess.  Because he is a registered sex offender he probably had contact with other homeless registered sex offenders.  My guess is he hooked up with some homeless sex offender along the line and might have seen or heard a lot.  If you are hooked up with one of them and they come back to your homeless camp with some child, you pretty much know the story of what is going on.  He also could have set in "group sessions" with other sex offenders and heard about it all.  He might have also been involved who knows.  I really am beginning to doubt he was involved other than maybe knowing about it because he is on the guestbook with his own name, his own old email addy and saying this stuff.  why in the heck would he do that.  My guess is he wanted to help, as crazy as that seems.  Or adam just does not fully understand what he is doing... obviously could be the main reason. 

I do know the dets interviewed him and he did not kidnap lindsey when she disappeared.  did he have contact with someone who did?  he might have.  Did he see someone with her after that, he certainly could have, was he one of the guys walking her down the road in Roy, it is very possible, did he decide to tell, he might have.  I don't know, I can't locate him.  ugh

you figure this... a van is the easiest place to conceal someone tied up, etc.  AND at the same time if it is a WHITE VAN it is the least likely to ID in comparison with any other color.  white van describes a million vehicles... so that is probably why they use them. 

I believe adam was trying to tell what he knows.  he was taking a lot of effort to make sure someone understood.  I hope someone really did pay attention to him and not just write it off.  I do hope he is sitting with the police and they are taking him seriously.  If not, I believe they lost a very valuable person who can possibly help them to understand what is going on.

Considering the following ... why was a ten year old little girl ... with no means to defend herself ... put at risk by being allowed to walk the streets of McCleary without adult supervision.

Janet

++++++

mlachester 2 hours ago wrote:

I am close to her and I know a lot more than the media or law enforcement are saying right now. As for Scanner, sorry if you don't like the truth but I have never been one to keep the truth in and she should of been taken the first time she called 911 from my house asking for help instead of put in a police car and taken back to her abuser!"

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stor...omments_anchor


mlachester 1 day ago wrote:
Also people need to know Lindsey had told a friend a white car had been folling her and that another 11 year old girl was also talked to by someone a=in a white car the guy tryed to get her in by going as far as telling her she could drive the car. She ran and told her mom and yes the police knows this too.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stor...omments_anchor

IIRC, this poster has been substantially discredited.

KLAAS.....I am not stalking you  ::MonkeyDevil:: I am checking all the active threads, lmaoooo  ::MonkeySlide::

Although I live in an AG area .. As the Monterey bay area of California is an AG area..
I do not see many White or European migrant workers today.
Most are from Mexico, central America, South America, Portugal and some others.
   
Although my next door neighbor has his father living with him who was in fact is a white migrant worker from the 40s-50's and very American. They came across years ago from North Dakota all the way to the west coast as migrant workers and even living in there car with the kids.. He is 70 years old now.. Listening to his story is really a "Grapes of Wrath story" which is about European and other immigrants as well as poor class Americans who were in fact white and did in fact do migrant work in the 20's -60's here in the Monterey bay area and a gentleman named Steinbeck who was grouchy old man and who was a writer, wrote some stories about them ..
I have talked with many people who knew Steinbeck.As many did.. who are all now in there 80's
We also have the Steinbeck center in Salinas Ca. if any of you want to know about him.. I have never been inside of it but I bet it is educational..

IF there is a sub culture of Caucasian Migrant farm workers today I have not come across any of them except for the Truck Drivers that haul the finished products shipped out of Coolers after the products are picked and boxed in the fields and taken to the coolers.
For the most part Mexican farm workers are Union workers today and NOT illegal alien workers although I do see some illegals who pick lettuce in Salinas and work in the flower growers hot houses..
Flower growers seem to employ many of them as the Union workers hate them and get really pissy if they are in there fields working.. The union workers actually get into fights with illegals here..
 The illegals are used to pick the cheapest of crops like lettuce and field prep... Not strawberries or Blackberries or high end crops like special grown items.. Union workers pick most of that, as it pays the most..
You always see more crime where the cheap crops are growing too.. Salinas has a high murder rate and they grow most of the lettuce and Watsonville has almost no murder and they grow most of the strawberries and other berries..Which pays the most to the Union pickers..
 When you see the buses show up to a field many times they have illegals in them.
The buses drive around Salinas in the morning and pick up field workers from street corners and pay them cash per day..
 Union workers get a check per week of work.

   

about the white car in the area.  I have heard many different stories about a white car, from several different locals. 

we all know marylin's one. 

here is another this is coming from someone else.   
 the night she went missing, before she got to mommsen, before she crossed main (not sure exact location) she stopped at xxxxx and xxxxxxx house (i don't know them) she was asking to spend the night, they were having a slumber party.  a white car went by and she flipped out, went white, scared to death.  she asked to stay and they wouldn't let her.

Wayne Watne
PO Box 1794
Moses Lake, WA 98837
02/2006

Wayne Watne
4869 Viking Road NE
Moses Lake Wa, 98837-3743
Grant County

and this is again a totally different person


xxxx was also followed by a white car until, she thinks, he could get a good look at her when she turned around.  she said she worked with the sketch artist on that car.

and then someone else, totally different person said her daughter was followed by a white car

Just so I'm clear, there were several people in town, saying about a white car?

So this is another group of girls she wanted to spend the night with, before she asked about KK's daughter spendng the night.  I wonder if it were the girls she had been swimming with all day that have the house across the street from the Shell station?

these white groups usually stay in the orchard fruit.  the apples and cherries and pears then to florida to the oranges and grapefruit.  in between this group will go to az to the cotton gin.  they will do the cherries in cali, but for the most part they do not work in cali, just the early cherries in linden/by stockton. sometimes they end up in the strawberries in oregon, they don't end up in the other areas.  Its a "route" they have traveled for decades.

I know the police were told about this years ago, they did not do a dang thing about it, so... what does that tell you

yes these are all different people with different incidences.  Now these are locals saying this.  you know how the local rumor mill can spin. but this is what I have been told.  but with this many people saying it, you would think there really is a white car following people.

Did this happen BEFORE or AFTER she left KK's house?  I'm a bit confused, because I thought the only time she was alone that day was when she left KK's house at 9:15.  This post suggests that she spoke with someone immediately before she went missing, which is news to me.  I haven't heard that before.

now keep in mind this is the local rumor mill I call it.  I have no reason to believe the people are lying, but I have no way of knowing if they are telling the truth or mistaken or they heard it here or there or what, but here it the rumor mill info

it is someone on maple street.  I have the names but I am not going to post them.  one person said it was at their house, another said no it was not at their house but at someone elses house on that street.  but it was on maple street.  both said it was on maple, just at different people's houses. 

DoubleDecker
That is very interesting as that is exactly what my next door neighbors father picked when he came to Watsonville "Apples" As Martinelli Apple cider is made here..
Farmers got paid far more for Berries and one by one over the years most of the Orchards were removed and made into Berry fields as Orchards crop is a one time a year crop..
So you are saying they are all still working and follow orchard crops.. 
Very interesting and educational and it makes sense why I do not see them here..
Thank You

I have a lot of info that I stick in a file called the "local rumor mill".  I just leave the info there until something pops up that might have something to do with it.  I don't post this as FACT, I post it as these are things the locals say.  so it is just like if someone from mccleary came and posted here, we have no idea if what they say is true or not, we either believe them or we don't.  so I just stick this info in a file and try to figure out if it is true or not.  I don't see any reason people would make up the same lies. so that is all I can say about it. 

one person said this happened after she left kara's, I can't say what the other person said. 

IIRC ... it was only Kara Kampen who discredited this poster who did not hide her identity when commenting.  When you consider that this poster who did not hide her identity revealed that 911 was called in regards to an incident ... I find her words very credible.  Somebody who does not hide her identity is not going to involve LE in fabrications ... a source that can be easily verify the truth the one way or another.

IMO

Janet

++++++

Residents of McCleary Speak Out

mlachester 1 day ago wrote:

To answer the questions everyone has asked, Yes I have talked to police and as far as things being unfounded its more of lazy work by cps and I don't know what the police were thinking. Since Lindsey has gone missing I have helped serch and put fliers up. I was called by the agents investigating and told them what I know. And this is no nick name everyone in McCleary knows who I am. Its no big secret she had came to my house to call 911 when her brother had done things to her. I hope lindsey is hiding and she finds a way to get to someone for help to tell them why. But as everyday gose by the fear gets worse.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_063009WAB-Mccleary-girl-search-LJ.1fc0b759.html?ocp=2#slcgm_comments_anchor


mlachester 2 hours ago wrote:

I am close to her and I know a lot more than the media or law enforcement are saying right now. … Sorry if you don't like the truth but I have never been one to keep the truth in and she should of been taken the first time she called 911 from my house asking for help instead of put in a police car and taken back to her abuser!"

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stor...omments_anchor


mamahead 13 hours ago wrote:
 
Lindsey has been afraid of her brother for a very long time. He has threatned her many times. Where is she? And why is the mother not crazy with sadness or emotion. Show us some tears. The friend that Lindsey was last with shows more emotion than the mother. And why was the brother begging for money for fireworks at his little sisters candlelight vigil?

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_070609WAB-missing-mccleary-girl-SW.14c01624.html


KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1762 on: July 09, 2009, 12:42:02 AM »

*** Does Lindsey's brother have a standing reputation in the community ??

Yes, not a real good one - with the kids at least. I have not met anyone who claims to be his friend.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg870856#msg870856

Kara Kampen – Mother of Lindsey’s friend Michaela


KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1602 on: July 08, 2009, 01:51:08 AM »

Lindsey's brother has a temper but to seriously hurt her I do not think so -  I've seen them fight and argue numerous times and know he gets mad for a minute and then he's over it. They both are a bit temperamental but he especially thinks highly of Lindsey and nothing in me since she's gone missing made me think he was any way involved. - Now that is just my gut feeling topped with the lack of any form of transportation.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg869280;topicseen#msg869280

Kara Kampen – Mother of Lindsey’s friend Michaela.


KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1809 on: July 09, 2009, 04:33:45 AM »

Josh had gotten into so many spats that honestly were in a large part things he did not start but because he was the oldest he was the one who got in trouble. I've set down kids I've never met before to have a talk with them because I heard that they were antagonizing him to see if he'd blow up.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg871164;topicseen#msg871164

Kara Kampen – Mother of Lindsey’s friend Michaela.


KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1795 on: July 09, 2009, 03:13:01 AM »

I am no Dr and I never dug but he does take medication for some condition - more mental than physical. He is not what kids would call "cool" and strikes you as being younger than he actually is if you talk to him. He came over a few times and we'd talk about something and he'd start jabbering about something completely off topic - when we were all out looking for Lindsey I was trying to talk to him about where we'd already looked and he just wanted to know if my son could come over the next day. So I guess you could say unfocused.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg871046;topicseen#msg871046

Kara Kampen – Mother of Lindsey’s friend Michaela

a lot of the younger generation of these people have stopped the circuit but there are some still do.  And some have died now but others still do it.  it is a close knit group, they marry into one another's familes etc, heck some marry their own cousins.  STILL, not back in the 1800's when that was common.  the group is still very intact.  kids have grown up thinking they are really part of that family, but they aren't, they are stolen kids.  crazy. several years ago someone told it all, but nothing done about it.  it's amazing what goes on and no one cares.

You don't need to...I think I have a pretty good idea.

oKay Kool

Thank-you, yes this to me is very important info.

i believe that if lindsey's face turned white as a ghost after she saw the white car drive by and was told 'no' to another sleepover, she must have known this person or been afraid to tell someone that they were following her, maybe she thought she'd get in trouble? i dont know...im trying to wrap my mind around this case.

did these eye witnesses say it was a car or a truck?

or possibly a van.

What I'm try to figure out, is if this little girl was so frightened by this white car, I wonder why she didn't say something to the parent at the second home she went to that night, or ask if someone would walk home with her. So now this is two different set of people that let a 10 year old walk home alone.

they all call it a white car



there is another rumor mill story about a  pickup; a sharp looking metallic tan color, late 80's model with an egg-shell colored canopy (as described);

pickup about 200 feet back on this little logging road type of thing, two women see the truck after they see a man in the bushes the day after lindsey is missing.  this is on 1st and deck, (1st called "old dusty").  they try to talk loud to get the man to come out, he gets quiet they can't figure out where he went, then they run into the truck parked right there, so they tell the police, police tells them to write it all down on a piece of paper he gives them, they want him to go look now so the man can't drive off, he doesn't. 

the guy was stocky guy in light brown, light brown shorts, light brown shirt, light brown baseball cap. about 5'8" or a little taller.

now these are just stories I here, for all I know they could be all mixed up

i need to go, I have to go run town errands ugh. bbl

they knew she was afraid, how else would they know she saw the car and flipped out turned white and was scared to death.  they sent her off anyway!!!!  whoever actually did it... according to someone

so one more thing "I" am thinking here

maybe she really did start down maple, get scared and double back on 6th to get away from this car?  that would explain why the dog trailing at first ended up on 6th and stopped and it would have been the freshest scent so that would make it to where the maple trail would not count. 

ok I am going to be late for appt. if I don't get off of here. bbl

Why in the world would a 10 year old be wanting to find a place to spend the night. Was she afraid to go home? Was she in trouble at home? Was she not getting along at home, so she is out asking to spend the night. Something is not right with this.

by this point, I would have to believe that all these rumor mill stories have been checked out. It's been a month.

I also believe the police when they say they don't have much to go on and no particular direction... although, they say someone local.

That's hard to believe as almost everyone in the town and the surrounding counties seems to have been cleared and there is no POI or focal point. There are only 1500 people in town and only so many would have access to Lindsey and a chance for a clear cut get-a-way.

As all the people in town are seemingly accounted for and none seem to be exhibiting a change in behavior or suddenly quitting a job, that would indicate that if Lindsey was taken by a townie - she's deceased and no one is tending to her care.

With child abductors, the child is killed with in 3 hours in about 75% of the cases... sorry to say so and my intend is not to be insensitive. Just stating the fact.

Also with child abduction, the abductor can not replace that abducted child very easily. So they sometime do tend to keep the child alive and Shawn Hornbeck is a prime example. Although Shawn was likely to be re-placed by Ben Ownsby but none the less, Shawn was kept alive for about 4-5 years.

In my humble opinion, it doesn't have the hallmarks of a local to me. With only so many people who would abduct and only so many likely suspects with access to THE abduction, it seems more than likely to me that this someone not from the area and that's the main reason why the case is still unsolved.

I know that there are those that think someone knows something and has kept that info confidential. For me, that's hard to believe at this point. Someone usually say something and there are more than enough people willing to speak to strangers on a message board. So, people are talking but the leads are not producing anything so far to date.

 

I am 62 years of age and ... I can remember collaborating with friends regarding spending the night at each others home ... regarding how were going to convince our parents.  Sleepovers were fun.

The only part of the scenario that bothers me is the adults who made choices for a ten year old that were not in her best interest.  There is no way I would send any ten year old away from my home to walk the streets defenceless against the dangers that lurk.

It did not concern Kara Kampen or Scott Williams who sent Lindsey on her way and it did not concern Melissa Baum as long as Lindsey met her ten o'clock curfrew.  For crying out loud ... my 11 year old grandson is in bed at 10:00 PM ... not walking the streets of town unsupervised.

Janet

++++

KARA KAMPEN

The Daily World - July 3, 2009

McCLEARY — Kara Kampen said she thought nothing of it when Lindsey Baum walked out of her house at about 9:15 p.m. last Friday.

http://**/articles/2009/07/03/local_news/doc4a4e415cdb51d302573546.txt


SCOTT WILLIAMS

KOMO News - June 28, 2009

Lindsey was going to walk the four blocks to her home on Mommsen Road, which is roughly a 10-minute walk. But something happened in that short distance - Lindsey never arrived home ...

The friend's father, Scott Williams, said he asked Lindsey to go home before it got too dark.

"She was here 10, 15 minutes, and then, you know, we said, 'You should probably get going before it gets dark,' and that was the last we heard of her," he said.

Witnesses say Lindsey seemed normal as she headed out around 9:15.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/49383897.html


MELISSA BAUM

Where is Lindsey Baum? Police, FBI Search for 10-Year-Old
Girl's Mother Frantic After Lindsey Never Made it Home From a Friend's House
By SARAH NETTER
June 30, 2009

Baum said her children began squabbling over the use of Josh's bike on the way there and were stopped by a family friend who sent Josh home to end the argument. Lindsey continued on to her friend's house. When Lindsey's friend found out she couldn't stay the night, Lindsey headed for home around 9:30 p.m.

"When she wasn't home by 10, I started to get nervous," Baum said, adding that 10 p.m. is the curfew for her children.
 
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7966924&page=1

You are so correct Rob on all of what you wrote..
 People do not want to hear the facts but they are the facts.. Stranger abductions.. 75% 3 hours, dead. The perp is driven by fear of getting caught and suffers from guilt and he murders the victim to take away both from his conscience..

Shawn and Ben situations is a rare events ... The family wants to hang on to that hope.
I would too. Anybody would.

 I myself will discount the white car until we hear an official report or a witness on news media telling everyone that she was going house to house looking for some place to sleep over and or she was afraid of a car and especially that part of her face turning white as a ghost..
It all sounds crazy.. It Prolly is..

We have neighbors of hers, they are here and posting, not one of them has made such a claim..
The only part I have read is that her brother has fits and that she was in fear of him..
Once I had seen his picture I have doubts about that also..

Although her acting older then what she is and being on the Internet with such claims is alarming... Still, I think this was a stranger abduction or somebody she knew as an acquaintance..
 I have doubts she would just get into a vehicle. But many of the abduction attempts near Escondido were near force or were by force and somebody could have just grabber Lindsey right off a street corner.
 It happens to adult women and I am sure it could happen to a child with ease and in seconds.

I hear what you are saying, and slumber parties were fun. This seems more to me that Lindsey just didn't want to go home. After not being able to sleep at her friends house, it just seems odd she would go to another friend's house to sleep over. But what is even stranger is two sets of adults didn't even think to walk this child home  ::MonkeyNoNo::

This needs some clarification because in a vacuum, this statistic is misleading.  What the statistic says is that OF THOSE CHILDREN WHO ARE ABDUCTED AND MURDERED, 75% of them have been murdered within 3 hours. It doesn't say that 75% of children who are abducted are murdered within 3 hours.  On the contrary, according to the Department of Justice statistics, 60% of children who are abducted by strangers are found alive.

Now, all of these statistics need to be tempered by the motivation behind the abduction.  As the motivation becomes more sinister, the likelihood that the child will be murdered increases.

This is very disturbing.  We hear from Lindsey's mom that she is terrified of the dark so you would think that since she was walking home 1/2 mile, 4 blocks, 6 blocks, whatever the distance and it was getting close to dark that she would be getting home as quickly as possible to avoid being out after dark.  Also, she has a 10 o'clock curfew and it's already after 9.  Why in this world is she at another persons house asking to spend the night?  Does she go all over town asking people if she can spend the night?  hmmmmm

Let's see...perhaps she leaves KK's house after being told she cannot spend the night, she's heading down maple toward her house and spots the white car that she has seen around town and she gets spooked, she turns around and heads back towards this other friends house to see if she can spend the night there and they tell her no.  Now she is alone again with this white car following her and nobody will let her stay over.  Poor girl, she must have been terrified.   Now this makes me angry.   They could see she was frightened but yet they turned her away to walk home all alone and it's nearly dark.  I myself have taken children home when I have learned they would be alone.  This is just heartbreaking.  This poor girl was scared and no one to help her.  I wonder if she ever mentioned to anyone that someone in a white car was following her?  Did she not think to ask someone to take her home?  This really bothers me.  If it had been me, I would have either let her stay or drove her home or at least walked home with her to make sure she was safe.  WOW!  I'm sorry but I just don't understand.  :smt089

One of my  concerns is she was on the internet, and had posted on myspace (at 10 years old!)  She posted on a 20 year old males myspace site, and he lived in McCleary. (it had tons of Mickey Mouse stuff on it, as I recall)  I think her website name on myspace was Defender.  Which struck me as an odd choice of names.  (I read that somewhere,  and I believe that is what I saw on myspace,so if I am wrong about the name, please tell me.)  I did see the posting on the 20 year olds myspace.  Nothing alarming just a posting.  Maybe I am not hip, but my 10 year old daugher does not have a myspace account, nor has she heard of such things.  She plays on a Webkins account that is protected, that is it.(and only with a parents approval)   Are things changing so much and I am not keeping up? 

That's what I'm thinking now after reading that see stopped at another persons house and asked to spend the night.  It seems as though she did not want to go home.  That is sad.

credit chi-monkey - link in Amber's thread -

http://www.kidsearchnetwork.org/research-statistics.html

The Kidsearch Network believes that Immediate Response by an experienced search team is necessary. because, 1) there is typically over a two hour delay in making the initial missing child report (60%), and 2) the vast majority (74%) of the abducted children who are murdered are dead within three hours of the abduction. (Source: Attorney General of the State of Washington, who did a study of cases reported to law enforcement in 1997)

There are estimated to be about 100 cases per year in the US where a child is abducted and murdered. The victims of these cases are "average" children, leading normal lives, and living with normal families, typical low-risk victims. The vast majority of them are girls (76%), with the average age being slightly over 11 years of age. In 80% of cases, the initial contact between the victim and killer is within 1/4 mile of the victim's residence.

Over half (57%) of these child abduction murders are committed by a killer who is a stranger to the victim. Family involvement in this type of case is infrequent (9%). However, the relationship between the victim and the killer varies with the gender and age of the victim. The youngest females, 1-5 years old, tend to be killed by friends or acquaintances (64%), while the oldest females, 16-17 years old, tend to be killed by strangers (also 64%). The relationship between the killer and victim is different for the male victims. The youngest male victims (1-5 years old) are most likely to be killed by strangers (also 64%), as are the teenage males (13-15 years old, 60% and 16-17 years old, 58%).

The average age of killers of abducted children is around 27 years old. They are predominantly unmarried (85%) and half of them (51%) either live alone (17%) or with their parents (34%). Half of them are unemployed, and those that are employed work in unskilled or semi-skilled labor occupations. Therefore, the killers can generally be characterized as "social marginals."

Almost two-thirds of the killers (61%) had prior arrests for violent crimes, with slightly more than half of the killers' prior crimes (53%) committed against children. The most frequent prior crimes against children were rape (31% of killers) and other sexual assault (45% of killers). Sixty-seven percent of the child abduction murderers' prior crimes were similar in M.O. to the murder that was committed by the same killer.

Commonly, the killers are at the initial victim-killer contact site for a legitimate reason (66%). They either lived in the area (29%) or were engaging in some normal activity. Most of the victims of child abduction murder are victims of opportunity (57%). Only in 14 percent of cases did the killer choose his victim because of some physical characteristic of the victim. The primary motivation for the child abduction murder is sexual assault.

After the victim has been killed, 52 percent of the bodies are concealed to prevent discovery. In only 9% of cases is the body openly placed to insure its discovery.

A unique pattern of distance relationships exists in child abduction murders. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim's last known location in 80% of cases. Conversely, the distance between the initial contact site and the murder site increases to distances greater than 1/4 mile (54%). The distance from the murder site to the body recovery site again decreases, to less than 200 feet in 72 percent of cases.

It was discovered that once the murder investigation has begun, the name of the killer is known to the police within the first week in 74% of cases.

While at times the media seems to "get in the way," in the end they are much more likely to have a positive effect on the investigation (31% of cases) than a negative one (6% of cases). In short, the media are more likely to bring witnesses forward than to aid the killer in his escape. The media had no effect at all in 63% of the investigations.

National Estimates of Missing Children (PDF)

Nonfamily Abducted Children: National Estimates and Characteristics (PDF)

Children Abducted by Family Members: National Estimates and Characteristics (PDF)

Runaway/Thrownaway Children: National Estimates and Characteristics (PDF)

Child Abuse and Neglect Statistics and Research

Statistical Data on Statuatory Rape (PDF)

Statistics on Teenagers/Juveniles as Victims (PDF)

this case is so frustrating, its so hard for me not to get carried away with all of the information that has been pulled up about adam campbell, and the local rumor mill and really stick with the facts of the case.

i will try to stick with with the ockham's razor (hopefully i spelled that right) theory.  i dont know if this would be beneficial but i am going to go back and read through the first threads and the timelines of the case and start brainstorming again from the FACTS we have (unfortunately they are few and far between)...

i think the FACTS in this case indicate a stranger/aquaintance abduction or unfortunately someone in law enforcement

Rob, you post made my point. It clearly says of those children who are murdered, 75 percent are murdered within 3 hours.

Where is the info coming from that that Lindsey asked to spend the night at Michaela's home.  According to Michaela's mother the overnighter discussion occured between Lindsey and her daughter on the walk from the Baums.  In other words ... both girls were anticipating a sleepover.  Nothing out of the ordinary.  Nothing "sad".

Janet

+++++

KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1081 on: July 05, 2009, 04:00:50 AM »

According to my daughter the thought of anyone spending the night at my house was thought up on the way to my house. So, Lindsey's mom would have had reason to be worried when she did not show up by 10ish because she at that time was (to my knowledge) not aware the girls had asked me or were going to ask to spend the night at my house or that I'd said no.  I believe she was under the impression that both girls would be coming back to her house which would take them longer because Kayla has to bring along many outfits if she stays the night.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg864834#msg864834

I think they are talking about her stopping at another friends house asking to spend the night after she left Michaela's.  A request of a second friend. It is rumored she stopped there after leaving Michaels.   

As of now it is rumored that she stopped at another friend's house after leaving Michaela's house, and that she was scared. And if that is true, what a shame nobody walked her home. I guess what I'm wondering is if that happened was it dark when she left the second friend's house?

If this is true, and people knew she was scared, then shame on the people of McCleary to allow a scared child to walk home alone-especially if they knew or suspected the reason why she was scared. This poor child.

It is very hard for me to understand this, I would never have allowed one of my kids friends to walk home alone when they were little. If this is true, I would love to know what Lindsey said when she got to the second home. You would even think the parent might have called Lindsey's mother even to walk over and walk her home.

Exactly Rose. Totally foreign to me. I've taken my little girl's friends home on numerous occasions. Of course, so much is rumor, who knows what to believe.

I'm back.   when I posted the "local rumor mill" info I was very careful to be sure to say "LOCAL RUMOR MILL" .  I think if someone came on the board to read and came in the middle of this they would start thinking this "IS" (fact) what happened.  I really try not to bring any "rumor mill" info to the board.  I have had and still do have a lot of "rumor mill" info and this is the first time I have shared any of it.  I don't like "rumor mill" info unless it starts to add up to other things in the case that it might substaniate.  I pe

rsonally do not want to start rumors. 

I think perhaps when we discuss the "rumor mill" info we might want to ALWAY add "rumor mill" info.  If we don't it will get a few pages down the line and others will read it and start saying it as fact.  ugh. 

but like it said, it is the same if someone from mccleary comes to the board and posts, it's still rumor really.  whether they post it on the board or they email it to me, it is all the same, so I thought perhaps I should share the "rumor mill" info.  Now I am not so sure. 
gee sorry and hope no one gets confused. 

perhaps I should have never said anything... ugh...

Police chase leads on missing McCleary girl

Searchers returned to the streets of McCleary under a brutal sun Tuesday to follow up on new leads in the hunt for 11-year-old Lindsey Baum, according to The Daily World of Aberdeen.

About 25 officers and searchers with dogs braved near-record temperatures to re-canvass areas of town, Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott said.

A recent $6,000 reward for information in the missing girl’s case has produced a new wave of tips, Scott said. Surrounding law enforcement agencies including the Thurston County Sheriff’s Office and the Aberdeen Police Department sent officers to help perform follow-up searches and interviews.

About six core investigators have been leading the effort to find Lindsey, who disappeared while walking a few blocks home June 26. The detectives have found no evidence explaining the 4-foot-9, brown-haired girl’s disappearance, but they continue sorting through thousands of tips.

Officers and volunteers knocked on doors throughout town Tuesday, asking new questions and trying to reach people missed in previous interviews, Scott said.

Two teams with cadaver search dogs also roamed the town, he said, but the hot conditions limited the available scents and quickly wore out the dogs.

Scott said detectives and extra officers expect to follow up on new tips in town for at least the rest of the week. He asked anyone with any potentially helpful information to call 866-915-8299.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/partners/theolympian/story/827963.html

I personally would like to hear the rumors from the locals.  I do agree that we should tag if from 'rumor mill', but I would like to know what the talk around the town is.  You never know when there is a thread that links, or truth involved that ties in to something else.  I understand your position though.

Why no "new" news coming from them if they are still there?  Appears to be confirmation of cadaver search dogs. 

If this is true ... inquiring minds want to know was this was not revealed at the getgo.  I contend it would be consider obstruction of an investigation .

Something is not right.

If investigators knew that Lindsey was not last observed by a neighbour two blocks from her home on Maple and ... she had taken another route to a friend's home ...  this info should have been publicly released immediately.

Janet

++++++

Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott  

ABC News – June 30, 2009

Scott said witnesses were able to put Lindsey within a couple of blocks of her house just after 9:30 p.m. The last person reported to have seen her, he said, was a neighbor on her way to work.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=7966924&page=2


Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott  

The Daily World - July 2, 2009

Scott said a second person came forward Tuesday with a confirmed sighting of Baum from Friday night in the same area along Maple Street near Fifth Street.

http://**/articles/2009/07/02/local_news/doc4a4cf43c1b1dd881132403

Well, as DD said, it is just a rumor.  Even possible the "other friend" lived on Maple?? 

be careful..i posted that before when karak was on the board and got major backlash...my line of thought as well....she was trying to go back the entire time...to a safe place, or a place she thought was safe.

okay..gonna' break this down...we have no info on this...le is a mess and so is the press...sorry ya'll but all we have is broken info...karaK did help for a second but then vanished....is her info correct?  can we believe what she says?  i don't know?  most think i'm a crack-pot here but thats okay with me--i know my intent and its to help find Lindsey....what do we know for a FACT...
#1:  Lindsey never came home that night....

do we Know and i mean is it a FACT that the broken down bike got to the house?

personally, I have always thought she doubled back down 6th.  I have always said that.  I really think someone was after her and she knew it and she was trying to get away from them

just a thought ....
who from???  stranger/know?

Madibabe - I see you up there, many have been concerned about you.   Can you give us and update?

lol you little monkeys can see me?  ::MonkeyHaHa:: I just popped on to read any news about little Lindsey. I have been so busy but keeping my eyes mind and ears open for any new developments or clues.
 My daughter was at camp for three days when it was suddenly closed due to a flu like symptoms outbreak. So my baby is super sick. I cant believe that in a matter of a hour timespan 60 campers were sick diarrhea vomiting including counselors. Anyway just wanted to let you know I'm still here and not going anyplace. I email dd when I'm on the road and get a idea. I cant post from my phone for some reason. It jumps around too much when quoting. Sweet Dreams Scared Monkeys See you tomorrow.

Perhaps the reason why so many neighbors have been seemingly uncooperative or unwilling to come forward is their own GUILT  for having turned away a scared child that was in danger who has now turned up missing.  Perhaps they could have saved her had they put their grudges aside and understood that it was an innocent 10 year old CHILD that was standing in front of them.  How shameful.  If this is the case, those people chose poorly, and now they have to live with that for the remainder of their lives.  They won't get any sympathy from me.  I'll save my tears for Lindsey.

I posted this on the maps and photos thread but wanted to bring it here also as I didn't know Lindsey was chosen for this program.

This image was taken at the Shop With A Cop(link below),a program where 100 Cops pick a child and they go to a pancake breakfast then shopping for Christmas gifts with $100.00.
Looks like Lindsey was chosen.

http://shopwithacopgraysharbor.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=7

Good to hear from you, but take care of your baby - hope she feels better real soon.   

I hope she feels better soon also, what a terrible experience for the kids at camp.

No that's okay d.d. I know it's rumor, so don't feel bad about posting what you hear, or receive regarding Lindsey.  Although rumor, there could be some hint of the truth in what you are hearing.  Like a lot of have been saying, somebody knows something.  As someone else posted, the reason why they haven't cooprated with l.e. is because they do feel guilty they didn't help Lindsey when they had the chance.  Regardless of how you feel about a family, when it comes to a child, you should never turn your back on them.  I don't understand.  But please don't stop posting any info you have (that you can post).   

Thanks for all your hard work, you have done some amazing research and I truly appreciate your efforts and your contributions to helping find Lindsey.

JessStar

Is there credible backup that reveals that residents of McCleary turned away a "scared" Lindsey who was in danger.

In my world ... that would never happen.  My neighbours, friends and family would embrace any child who had a need.

I suspect that many McCleary residents are aware of the underlying dynamics encompassing the Baum household and believe that Lindsey made it home within minutes of being observed by the neighbour who was on her way to work.

In the process of elimination ... I hope that the concerns of McCleary residents in regards to Lindsey's brother were not not disregarded by Undersheriff Rick Scott.  I hope the concerns of Mccleary residents were taken seriously and ... Josh Baum was not ruled out as a person of interest without investigation ... without questioning and ... without searching.

Janet

++++++++

Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott

The Olympian - June 30, 2009

Lindsey left her cell phone at home before leaving to play with friends Friday, said Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott. Lindsey’s older brother had left the Maple Street residence before his sister after the two had a dispute over the bike Lindsey had borrowed from him that day – a common occurrence between frequently squabbling siblings, Scott added.

http://www.theolympian.com/southsound/story/896613.html


Residents of McCleary Speak Out

mlachester 1 day ago wrote:

... Its no big secret she had came to my house to call 911 when her brother had done things to her.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_063009WAB-Mccleary-girl-search-LJ.1fc0b759.html?ocp=2#slcgm_comments_anchor


mlachester 2 hours ago wrote:

I am close to her and I know a lot more than the media or law enforcement are saying right now. … Sorry if you don't like the truth but I have never been one to keep the truth in and she should of been taken the first time she called 911 from my house asking for help instead of put in a police car and taken back to her abuser!"

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stor...omments_anchor


mamahead 13 hours ago wrote:
 
Lindsey has been afraid of her brother for a very long time.  He has threatned her many times. Where is she? And why is the mother not crazy with sadness or emotion. Show us some tears. The friend that Lindsey was last with shows more emotion than the mother. And why was the brother begging for money for fireworks at his little sisters candlelight vigil?

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_070609WAB-missing-mccleary-girl-SW.14c01624.html


Lindsey Baum

Lindsey Baum:  Facebook Entry

TWILIGHT FREAK is happy that her brother is going to juvi tomorrow.Mood: happ at 14:10 17 Jun view more

Lindsey Baum is happy that her brother is going to juvie tomorrow.
Mood: Happ at 14:10 17 June

http://www.myspace.com/477760045


Melissa Baum

KING 5 News – July 2, 2009

If a stranger kidnapped 10-year-old Lindsey Baum, her mother says the girl would have put up a fight

“She has very long fingernails,” said Melissa Baum. “Her brother is proof enough of that.”

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_070209WAB-mccleary-KS.67b0a9.html

I have been looking for some true statistics relative to stranger abductions but have not been able to find anything more then supposed professional opinions.. I do not trust most professionals.. There opinions make for good toilet paper most of the time.

When I look at news reports..
  I find that most all of children abducted by strangers, that the child is found murdered or not found at all most of the time.
  In news reports "which may only show a small percentage of cases" I find very few children found alive and happy.
So based on that I would consider 90 percent of stranger abductions that the victim is murdered..
Stranger abductions is a small percentage of abductions as parental abductions appear to be the most common in occurrence.


Anyone who can find true statistics by a government agency who tacks every incident please post a link as I would really like to read it for my own education.
Thank You.

This post from Lindsey's Myspace account haunts me.  What was causing these feelings? 

TWILIGHT FREAKi've been getting a lot of nightmares latley and i have this bad feeling that something bads gonna happenat 6:48 AM May 29 Mood:scared 

That was very insightful on her part..

AZSunny


 ::MonkeyAngel::

Love, Janet

+++++

AZSunny
Re: Lindsey Baum #2
« Reply #634 on: July 20, 2009, 02:08:05 AM »

Janet,  dreading the 1st of August.  That is the day I lost my husband.  I am trying so hard to focus on other things, but it is like an elephant standing in front of me.  I miss him so much it physically hurts.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5627.msg882622#msg882622

So much has been speculated about LE and possibly one of them being involved - does anyone know WHO the police officer was that took Lindsey to "shop with a cop"

She would know and trust that person.

Tamikosmom ..I am so sorry to her that.. God Bless you, may he give you some peace knowing that you loved your husband so much..

BIG HUG for you AZSUNNY!!!  ::MonkeyAngel:: I feel for you my grandpa passed away Dec 30, 2008 we moved grandma into our house they were married 72 yrs. she cries everyday!!! ::MonkeyAngel::

May some cheery news of someone being found safe come this weekend!! ::MonkeyDance::
Prayers for Lindsey & her family

Edward

AZSunny lost her hubby one year ago.  She is hurting terribly.  My heart breaks for her.

Janet

White van reference- Credit to Edward


::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek::

Man Tries To Lure Young Girl Into Van

Orcutt, CA-- Residents are being told to keep a lookout for a man driving a white van with possibly Washington State license plates.

Santa Barbara Sheriff deputies received a report Monday afternoon, that a man driving a white van near Hartnett and Cane tried to lure an 11-year-old girl into his van.

The girl said, the man pulled up to her and asked her to help him find a lost dog. The girl told sheriff officials that when she ran to a nearby home to call for help.

Detectives say the suspect is in his 50's and was driving a white cargo van with two rear windows covered by curtains.

If you have any information on a possible suspect, you are urged to call the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department.

http://www.keyt.com/news/local/51341337.html

Thanks Janet for thinking of me.   I hope with this day passing it will give me some healing.  It has been a long road.   

Hugs...

I am so sorry to hear that I Pray God gives her some peace in her mind..
Life on earth is a temporary state of mind and true love lives forever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5hRchodc2s&feature=related

Here are some 2002 stats from the DOJ.  Still looking for newer ones for you.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/196467.pdf

AZSunny, my thoughts and prayers are with you  ::MonkeyAngel::

http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0908/chapter4.htm

I can probably help you with this, Edward.  But keep in mind that most cases aren't reported in the media.  Those that receive media attention are sensational for one reason or another.  So I'd be a very leary about using media reports as a basis for a statistical analysis. 

While I look up the information, consider this.  There are about 800,000 children in the United States that are reported missing each year.  Let's assume a very small percentage of those are stranger abductions--1%.  I think the number is more like 9%, but we'll use a very small percentage for purposes of this hypothetical.  1% translates to 8,000 children.  According to the United States Department of Justice and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, between 100 and 115 children are abducted and murdered each year.  That means that out of the total population of missing children, .000125, or .0125%, are abducted and murdered.  Using this analysis, it would not be accurate to conclude that 90% of children abducted by strangers result in death to the child.  If that were the case, we'd be seeing thousands of children being abducted and murdered each year--a figure that would translate to more than 22 children a day.  And while the abduction and murder of ONE child is too many, fortunately we are not seeing this happening to 22 children a day.

Thank You both for that information.

Edward thank you, that is a beautiful and meaningful song.   It touched my heart.

AZSunny

The deep pain you must be experiencing today on the anniversary of the loss of you "soul" mate has brought me to my knees ... has brought me to a place where I realize that it is so important that I reassess my priorities in life.  I have a hubby that ... despite the normal ups and downs ... has blessed my life for 43 years.  He is my rock.  Yet ... for the most part ... I take this gift ... that should be treasured ... for granted.  It is so wrong.

Janet

You are so right Janet, treasure every moment and store it in your memory.  It all can change in a hearbeat, and life is never the same.

I feel for Josh Baum.  Many anger issues that follow children into adulthood are rooted in experiences akin to those that KaraK describes.

Nevertheless ... a little ten year girl is missing and ... all avenues in the course of the investigation must be persued.  Justice for Lindsey Baum dictates that no free passes are hand out based on circumstances.  Accountability is where it is at.

Janet

++++++


KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1809 on: July 09, 2009, 04:33:45 AM »

Josh had gotten into so many spats that honestly were in a large part things he did not start but because he was the oldest he was the one who got in trouble. I've set down kids I've never met before to have a talk with them because I heard that they were antagonizing him to see if he'd blow up.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg871164;topicseen#msg871164

Kara Kampen – Mother of Lindsey’s friend Michaela.

AZSunny - I hope it is alright, I asked for prayers for you in these difficult times in the prayer thread.  Here is a link - http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=21.new#new
HUGS and  ::MonkeyAngel:: monkey kisses! 

In 2002, the United States Department of Justice commissioned a study through NISMART (National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway and Throwaway Children" called "Nonfamily Abducted Children: National Estimates and Characteristics."  I will post a copy of the actual study for anyone who wants it.  The study used the most comprehensive information available.  Importantly, it analyzed those abductions perpetarated by a stranger or slight acquaintance who transported the child 50 or more miles, detained the child overnight, held the child for ransom or with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed the child (referred to in the study as a "Stereotypical Kidnapping).  One of the study's key findings was that in 40 percent of Stereotypical Kidnappings, the child was killed and, in another 4 percent, the child was not returned or located.  This child was returned physically injured in 32% of the cases, and returned alive in 57% of the cases.  The child was sexually assaulted 49 percent of the time.  Other motives included robbery or ransom.  During the study term, there were 115 such abductions.  46 of those children were murdered while 66 were returned alive.  The remainder were not returned or located.  More than one perpetrator was involved in a starting 48 percent of the cases.  86% of the perpetrators were male, while 7% were female.  (the remainder had no information).  The perpetrator is 20-29 years old in 36% of the cases; 13-19 years old in 21% of the cases, and 30-39 in 21% of the cases.  In 40% of the cases, the child was taken from the street, car or some other vehicle.  In 16% of the cases, the child was taken from his or her own home or yard.  The child was moved 50 miles or more in only 14% of the cases.  Most "stereotypical kidnapped" children are recovered within 24 hours (83%), with 10% lasting longer than 24 hours.

During the same time period, there were 58,200 "non-family" abductions that were not "sterotypical kidnappings."  Out of those, 99 percent were returned alive.

The study carried with it a 95% confidence interval.  What that means is that if the study was repeated 100 times, 95 of the replications would produce the same general results.

AZ Sunny, my thoughts and prayers are with you.  Losing a loved one is always difficult.  Losing a soul mate is always tremendously difficult.  May God and Peace be With You.

The Study can be found here:

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_nonfamily.pdf

I copy and pasted it ..Thank You very much for the research study and a good statistic I can use in the future.

No problem, Edward.  I find it emotionally trying to read those studies.  They always seem to be accompanied by an undertone that the "problem is not as bad as everyone thinks."  But to me, one murdered child is one too many.  If it were up to me, I'd be spending the One Billion Dollars on finding and saving missing children, not on Cash for Clunkers.  But to our Government, the problem of missing and exploited kids only deserves a $40 million a year allotment.  And I'm not kidding about that figure.  I don't joke about things like that--it makes me way way way too angry.

AZSunny

I miss ya on the Natalee Holloway forum.  I miss ya whether you are silently sitting in the rafter or you are contributing with your posts to the elusive cause of justice for this 18 year old American citizen or ... a measure of closure for her family.

 ::MonkeyWaa::

Janet

Lindsey Baum Reward Increase



The Daily World

The reward for information leading to 11-year-old Lindsey Baum has been raised to $10,000 as investigators continue checking on new leads.

Lindsey’s mother Melissa Baum said donations have increased the reward previously offered by Crime Stoppers and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott said a team of investigators continue to catalog and check out new tips from when the reward was first offered. They are conducting follow-up interviews with the help of neighboring law enforcement agencies.

Lindsey disappeared on June 26 while walking a few blocks to her home in McCleary. Investigators have found no evidence explaining the 4-foot-9, brown-haired girl’s disappearance in the past month.

Melissa Baum said people can contribute to the Lindsey Baum Reward Fund at any Sterling Savings bank branch.

Anyone with information on Lindsey’s whereabouts or suspicious behavior that may be related to the case should call the tip line at 1-866-915-8299 or send an e-mail to soadmin@co.grays-harbor.wa.us.
 
http://**/articles/2009/07/31/local_news/doc4a733060c75f2234916382.txt


 

I am very glad to see the reward going up for Lindsey.  Hopefully, more people are telling something and they are following up on what the people are saying.

does anyone have any idea what it costs to hire a sketch artist?  a good one? 

I know how you feel.. 4 years ago when we I got involved with the search for Natalee Holloway, I had only done searches physical searches for missing people before that and never done research on missing people nor seen the levels of bureaucracy ..
 Now more then 4 years later I am so frustrated with the professionals that I want the United States Government to appoint a citizen group with unlimited jurisdiction worldwide to do the research and the physical searches for missing people as we can't seem to trust THEM "So many agencies caught up in bureaucratic bull-crap and EGO, that I can't name them all" to do it properly.. I am so frustrated with the amount of unsolved cases on American soil.. We made better progress in a nation not our own with no rights to do so.. and we never let go of the suspects on that rock called Aruba and they are in fact the guilty party..
From the beginning of Amber alerts LE for the most part fails inside of the United States.. There is no common sense in any socialistic group.. You need common sense and the ability to act quickly in ALL of these cases to have any chance of catching the bad people early on.. Until the professionals start acting with urgency on ALL of these cases I am always going to be frustrated. Although it does not happen in all cases and if the criminal falls inside of the police station and confesses or LE finds the victim in the middle of the road they do solve cases and they never let us hear the end of it when that does happen.. True

Think about it.  Considering the girls left the video store at 8:19 PM and ... then  went to the Baum residence prior to beginning their jouney to the Kampen residence with Josh ... there could only be about a 30 minute time span between the girls' parting with Josh following the argument and ... Lindsey's expected time home after leaving the Kampen residence.

Inquiring minds want to know what time did Josh Baum arrive home that evening.

In the process of elimination ... all avenues ... even difficult avenues ... must be explored.

Janet

++++++


KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1936 on: July 10, 2009, 07:07:48 PM »

The conversation was apparently quite short and consisted of little more then a "Josh you need to go home" Josh trying to explain what was going on and the girls asking the lady to tell Josh to go home again.
 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg873229#msg873229


The Daily World - July 3, 2009

Kampen said she has replayed that Friday evening in her head over and over. So has her daughter, Michaela, 10, who spent the day swimming with Lindsey. They walked together with Josh Baum, 13, to the Kampen house. But halfway there, Michaela said they teased Josh, getting under his skin ...

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg863022


KaraK
Re: Lindsey Baum, 10y missing from McCleary, WA 6/26/09
« Reply #1809 on: July 09, 2009, 04:33:45 AM »

Josh had gotten into so many spats that honestly were in a large part things he did not start but because he was the oldest he was the one who got in trouble. I've set down kids I've never met before to have a talk with them because I heard that they were antagonizing him to see if he'd blow up.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5541.msg871164;topicseen#msg871164

I would like to know what time Josh got home that evening as well. But since his own mother says he is a wanderer, she probably doesn't even know.

I do not know if it was fear of the consequences or love for my parents that was the motivating factor but ... at 12 years of age if an adult were to instruct my brothers or I to go home ... we would be home licity split.

Janet

Yes, I know I would have also, but then kids were not allowed to be disrespectful to their elders, not like some kids are today.

okay I am going to try to understand this whole josh thing. 

did they police question him?  if so, do you think he could lie well enough all this time he would not convict himself if he were guilty? 

where would he hide a body or keep a person tied up/locked up or whatever?  out in the woods? in some old building?  etc. 

do you think the police just ignored him and never asked him anything? 

if he and lindsey were fighting and the lady on the street noticed and made josh go home, or at least told him to go home, then wouldn't someone else here them fighting again if they were fighting when lindsey was walking back home. 

did josh wait for lindsey along the way and they fought and he did something to her?  where would he have dragged her to? 

did she get home and he did something to her there?  again, would his mother hear them fighting? where would he drag her off to?  the dogs were at the house and searching the area around there, so wouldn't they have found her if josh did something to her at home and then dragged her out of the house to the woods around there? 

I am trying to understand how others think josh did this, hid her body, and no one finds her? the dogs have been all over town.  wouldn't they have found her scent?  if you think the weather messed up the scent, then okay, where is she?  in some house? under a house?  etc.  its been over a month, if there is a decomposing body in this heat in town, someone would know it by now.  how far could josh drag her out in the woods?  a mile?  1000 feet?  I would think they have searched at least 1000 feet all the way around the town?  I would hope they did.  did he sink her in water?  how would he weight her down? 

do you think he killed her then called someone to help him dispose of her? 

I am just trying to understand how you think josh is responsible and no one has figured that out by now.  I'm not saying he isn't able to do this, I do believe 12 year old kids can do this, but I would think if he did, they would know it by now or at least found her. 

do you think his mother helped him cover this up?  she had no car?  did she help him drag her off somewhere?  did they call someone else with a car to take her and get rid of her?  who would do that?  trust a kid not to tell it if he got caught? 

I have no problem trying to help figure out how josh could have done this etc, but I must not be looking at it the same way some others are

DD-excellent post.  i think that obviously there are some concerns with jb... but i agree with you that i can't seem to come up with any plausible scenario in which he could have been responsible for lb's disappearance.

the only thing i can think of that could be possible (yet extremely far fetched) is if he dug a deep hole in the woods somewhere and had this planned out, which i find almost impossible.

if he was involved, i dont see how he did this alone. if it was a plot w/friends i dont see how someone hasn't talked yet, or how the rumor mill hasnt started on that.

i originally thought maybe an older teen was responsible for this, but the more time that has passed, and the more i have read on the research everyone has been doing on people, the more i think this was an adult aquantince.

DD

When all the underlying dynamic that has been revealed/alleged encompassing Josh Baum and ... then when you consider the argument that must of been so heated that it dictated  intervention by a neighbour ... logic dictates that Lindsey's brother should not be overlooked as a person of interest.  Hey ... maybe he has not been overlooked but ... the dots cannot be connected.  Think about the six searches conducted at the creek within days following Lindsey's disappearance.  Think about the recent search with the dogs.

I can only speculate on a possible scenerio and ... it involve a chance meeting between  Lindsey and a still angry Josh within two block from their home ... a chance meeting following Lindsey being observed at Fifteen and Maple by a neighbor driving to work.  Then somewhere off the beaten track ... things go out of hand. 

Consideing Melissa Baum passed a lie detector test ... I do not believe she has any first hand knowledge of wrongdoing.

I saw a photo of Josh Baum at the second vigil a few nights ago.  He is a good size.

Again ... I am not accusing but ... when what is known about Josh and Lindsey's relationship that appears to reach beyond normal sibling rivalry ... I believe that her brother should not be overlooked as a person of interest.

Janet

I'm more than willing to listen to the reasons and HOW he could have done this and they not find her, but I just can't figure out myself how come they have not found her if josh did this.  I can't figure out where he would have put her that they can't find her.  I know people can do things together and stay quiet. I am a firm believer in mulitple perps doing stuff together and no one every telling.  but who would have helped Josh.  that is the question.  I can't see how he could hide her by himself.

even if he had a place to hide her, he had to get her there.  if he dragged her on the ground the dogs would know.  if he got her in an empty house or building in town, wouldn't someone know it by now?  in this heat? 

does he have an older friend who drives who would help him?  who would that be.  does he know anyone THAT well who would do that?  where is the "friend" if there is one?  has he been known to hang out with anyone who is that good of friend of his? 

I just don't have any answers to help me with this.

Again ... it would be interesting to know what time Josh Baum got home on the evening of June 26, 2009.  Did he go home as the neighbour who intervened in the argument had instructed?  If he was at home with Mom prior to Lindsey's leaving the Kampen resident between 9:15 PM and 9:30 PM then this wannabe detective's speculation will go in another direction.

Janet

oh I agree with you that he should not be overlooked at all.  and I believe he is big enough to do something to her either on purpose or accidently if they got into a physical altercation.  I have no problem believing any of those things.  My problem is where would he hide her?  how?  if he hid her someone where he could get her on foot, and if he really is responsible and did this, then she is close... and if she is that close, and he dragged her off somewhere, then they must not have looked very well AT ALL.  that is my problem with this theory... they can't find her where I think he would be able to put her.  either he would have to have help to get her out of there, or they didn't search that town at all.  "IF" he were to have done this. 

It's not even that I don't agree with you that he could have done this, he "could" have, but what did he do with her?  see what I mean?  do you have some ideas where he could have put her or gotten her there?  that is what I can't get past.  believe me, if I could make sense out of where he could have put her, I would be ragging about him just like everyone else.  well maybe not quite as bad, but I would certainly be over here by myself with some huge file of my own going through it. 

if you can tell me something where it seems believeable to me, or even half A$$ believeable to me where he could have hid her, I am more than ready to add him to my list.  the ONLY reason I personally can see that he did it and she is wherever he could have put her, is the police and search dogs are not looking at all.  because if josh dragged her somewhere they should have found her.

I would think the police would certainly ask josh when he got home, if for no other reason to see where he was and if he saw anyone out and about wherever he was at at the time she was walking home.  even if they never even consider he might be responsible, he was with her right before that and known to be out walking around or at least home so they should have asked him where he was and did he see anyone weird around etc. 

if they never talked to him at all, then boy would that be something

DON'T MISS DANA PRETZER TONIGHT AT 9PM ET:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub7/Pretzer073109.jpg)

also someone has been ringing in the ear of the police that josh has done things to lindsey, all the more reason they probably did talk to him...being that someone saw them fighting and told him to go home, and they police have talked to them, then all the more reason the police probably talked to him about it.  You would think the police have questioned him about the fight etc.  If they didn't then that would really supprise me.  And I find it hard to believe Josh is smarter than the police when it comes to being questioned.  some are though, but from what I am hearing of Josh, I am not sure he could hold a candle to the feds or det's questioning him.  seems he has been caught for the other things he has done, so does he really know how to commit crimes and get away with them, especially a murder and hiding a body. 

these are the things I can't figure out in order to think he did this.  Can a 12 year old do this and lie and not get caught?  yes... but still, hiding the body is the problem I have.

I see no way - zero way that Josh could have done this for all the reasons doubledecker listed. In fact, I have considered all those reasons myself but thought that everyone saw it too and didn't want to waste so many keystrokes typing it out.

In fact, I don't see how any of the townies could have done this - atleast not the ones on Lindsey's way home. I also discount all rumors and stories posted by townies that have posted here and on other boards. I have been around long enough to know that townies post all kinds of ludicrous stories... they do it for a multitude of reasons... such as posterity, notoriety and to be a local hero... not to mention getting even with a family they don't like. Those that want to believe them or trust their words - that's up to you.

I'm gonna stick to my original hypothesis - someone off of rt 8 stopping for gas and saw a crime of opportunity. I may be wrong but after 4 + weeks, I don't see the police any closer to arresting someone local. As I said - I may be wrong, but to me this looks like a crime of opportunity where Lindsey was in the wrong place at the RIGHT time.

I would love to see this wrapped up yesterday, I really would. I don't wanna see any child missing, none at all. But I don't think we can make Josh anymore a suspect or POI than we can Watne. All of these people have been check multiple times. Now unless the police are playing some type of game, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, I just do not see how we can label anyone "interesting".

I believe, in my own opinion, that the case is still unsolved simply because the person who abducted Lindsey is not a known person from the community - I could be wrong, but you tell me how a small townie was not been found yet and responsible for this disappearance and the most important question is - where is Lindsey - dead or alive.

oh I agree with you that he should not be overlooked at all.  and I believe he is big enough to do something to her either on purpose or accidently if they got into a physical altercation.  I have no problem believing any of those things.  My problem is where would he hide her?  how?  if he hid her someone where he could get her on foot, and if he really is responsible and did this, then she is close... and if she is that close, and he dragged her off somewhere, then they must not have looked very well AT ALL.  that is my problem with this theory... they can't find her where I think he would be able to put her.  either he would have to have help to get her out of there, or they didn't search that town at all.  "IF" he were to have done this. 

It's not even that I don't agree with you that he could have done this, he "could" have, but what did he do with her?  see what I mean?  do you have some ideas where he could have put her or gotten her there?  that is what I can't get past.  believe me, if I could make sense out of where he could have put her, I would be ragging about him just like everyone else.  well maybe not quite as bad, but I would certainly be over here by myself with some huge file of my own going through it. 

if you can tell me something where it seems believeable to me, or even half A$$ believeable to me where he could have hid her, I am more than ready to add him to my list.  the ONLY reason I personally can see that he did it and she is wherever he could have put her, is the police and search dogs are not looking at all.  because if josh dragged her somewhere they should have found her.
[/quote]

i could not agree more.  it has been reported by karak that jb did not have many friends.  part of the reason that wayne watne was looked at so closely on this board was b/c of his connection with jb..it was made to seem from karak that this was his only friend.   i think if jb put her anywhere she def would have been found by now. yes its concerning b/c of the reports about jb and b/c of lindsey's own posts on myspace about him going to "juvi"... but i think all of these things with jb are just a coincidence and hopefully le went over all of this and ruled him out.

i'm sorry dd i totally messed up that last post. this was my response to ur last post

i could not agree more.  it has been reported by karak that jb did not have many friends.  part of the reason that wayne watne was looked at so closely on this board was b/c of his connection with jb..it was made to seem from karak that this was his only friend.   i think if jb put her anywhere she def would have been found by now. yes its concerning b/c of the reports about jb and b/c of lindsey's own posts on myspace about him going to "juvi"... but i think all of these things with jb are just a coincidence and hopefully le went over all of this and ruled him out.

rob-i enjoy reading your posts (even though this is such a gruesome subject)

DD

I speculate if something happened to Lindsey at the hands of her brother ... it was completely unplanned.  I am not condoning but ... it could have been possibly provoked and ... he acted impulsively.  At twelve years old ... I believe this young man would have panicked and ... bolted.  In all probability ... no attempt or ... very little attempt at hiding his sister's body.

I believe IF the above scenario took place ... Lindsey will be found in an out-of-sight spot on one of the properties in that two block radius.

Sheriff Scott stated in the search the other day ... that they were calling on neighbours again and requestioning them as well as neighbours who had yet to be contacted.  It does not appear that those properties were search to any extent ... only rural areas.

Also ... when it is considered what a residence said about Josh's behavior at that first vigil in regards to attempting to solicit money for the purchase of fireworks and ... KaraK's words about Josh's behavior at a search effort regarding Josh's only interest was in arranging a playdate with her son ... it appears that he does not comprehend that seriousness of the situation.  A lack of conscience can account for the fact there is no remorse.

DD ... I am only speculating.  Lindsey Baum is missing and ... something happened to her. 

Janet

DD...I finally caught you on here!  Will you just satisfy MY curiosity?  Please check out KaraK's boyfriend/husband.  I'm just not satisified on their end.  Also, any friend could've been on their way to or from their house.  Please?

I'm just going to brainstorm here, because by rambling and thinking of everything I can that is how I notice things I might otherwise miss.  so whatever I say here is not because I think it true or not; I am only brainstorming. 

does search the creek 6 times.  that is far away from where lindsey was walking.  how would josh get her to that creek down a street full of houses, you can't drag a dead body down a residential street that far... if she was alive and he had ahold of her she would be fighting and yelling. just like in front of the lady who told them to go home, someone would hear them by the time they got all the way to the creek. 

I see you think(or I think that is what you are saying) that she is a couple of blocks from her house.  if he waited for her on the west side of the highway, he can't drag her across there and not be seen by someone.  if he is on the east side of the highway waiting for her, there are houses there too, so where to drag her?  where is the easiest place to drag someone off the road without being seen.

could he have grabbed her off maple into an empty house?  I am sure by now they have searched those houses.  maybe not at first but they are back in there now, so it would really make me go hmmmmm the police are useless if they have not searched those empty buildings by now.  by now a decomposing body should aleart the neighbors and there be flies all over ....sorry, but the truth, so I don't think she would be dead in a house closeby.  is there any way she could be?  I don't know, what am I overlooking? 

who would have helped josh take her out of there?  did he have any friends?  older ones with cars?  can he or someone steal a car...possible... 12 year olds steal cars all the time.  was one reported stolen?  if so did the fingerprint it or test for lindsey being in it, did they find a stolen car he could have used?  we don't know. 

and here is one more question... and I am not saying who I believe at this point but... marylin says there was a 911 report and all this stuff josh has done.  kara says no there is not, yet you site both of them in helping you come to your conclusion josh might be the kind of person to do this.  well, one of them has to be telling the truth and one not... so which is it?  we don't know.  marylin is just another person in nthe "local rumor mill".  we have not seen proof of anything she said.  we can choose to believe her though.  there is no reason to not believe her, there is no reason to believe her, it is our own call.  same with kara, just because she is part of this mess, does not mean we know if she is telling the truth, therefore, she is another part of the "local rumor mill" ... we just don't know.  now do both tell the truth?  do both lie? do both tell the truth sometimes and not the other?  how do we pick and choose what is the truth they tell and what is not.  if we look at the times things don't match up with kara(and understandably a lot of it) then we might decide kara lies, or we might think she just got confused or thought differently than someone else... same with marylin.  but it is a fact these two do not agree with one another.  so how do we pick and choose who to believe, and which parts to believe.  do we believe one part and not the other.  or do we say well I think she lied about this or that, so I can't believe her at all?  so here is another huge problem, we are going by some of the things some of the people say and writing off the other parts.  or we point out some of the things they say are not true or don't match yet we believe the other parts they say.  so I personally consider them as part of the "local rumor mill".  now if I ask kara something and she tells me and I go find the doc or the proof, then I know she is telling me the truth... on the other hand I have not talked to marylin and I have not seen the proof of what she is saying.  we can choose to believe her if we like, and I do believe people at times because I choose to, but we can't know unless we see the reports.  I haven't seen one so I don't know if josh did those things to lindsey or not.  would marylin get on the net and lie about reporting something to the police?  who knows.. .would kara?  who knows.  if josh chased lindsey with shovels and knives, do we believe that?  because someone said so?  could be true.. might not be.  if someone came and said hey they are all cranksters tweaked out of their heads, do we believe that?  hey maybe they are, we don't know.  and maybe the person saying it is the one tweaked out.  so personally how do I know who to believe?  so I have to look for some proof of something or something that makes sense one way or the other.  hiding the body is my problem.  that is my real problem with josh.  if I could figure out how he could hide her body and they not find it with the dogs etc... or in a search of the area where he could have dragged a body... then I might see this more believeable that he did this.   

Hi...almost done with my studies, one more research paper and I am done!! YAY..

Took a break from it all to come here!...~Love~


PHERNETTON, RICHARD ALLEN
Booked
7/20/2009 21:00    
Statute:
10.88.320 - Fugitive From Justice Other St
Offense:
SOFF - Sex Offense
Arrest Type:
PC
Charging Agency:
MPD-Montesano Police Department
Court:
SC2-GHC Superior Court 2
Cause No:
09-1-307-9
Released
7/31/2009 09:00    
Bail Amount:
No Bail
Disposition:
ROA-Released to Other Agency

Interesting, and I'm glad you are asking her, thanks. There is something about Josh that bothers me very much, but you are right, if he did do something to his sister, LE would surely have found Lindsey by now, I do have a problem of where he would have put her. And I'm sure, at least I hope LE have spoken several times to Josh.

Cited for above post:

http://www.co.grays-harbor.wa.us/info/sheriff/JailRegisters/RegisterDetail.asp?SrchBookNo=173193

COLE, ERIC JOHN

Booked
7/10/2009 15:20    
Statute:
9A.44.130 - Fail To Reg Sex/Kidnap Offendr
Offense:
WARA - Warrant Arrest
Arrest Type:
WAR
Charging Agency:
GHCJ-Grays Harbor County Jail
Court:
DC1-Grays Harbor District Court 1
Cause No:
2002131
Released
7/31/2009 15:20    
Bail Amount:
$5,000.00

Disposition:
TS-Time Served
               
http://www.co.grays-harbor.wa.us/info/sheriff/JailRegisters/RegisterDetail.asp?SrchBookNo=173026

now if the police did not check well I could see josh could do something to her and she was left lying there, could have even been accidental in an arguement, a shove and hit her head or whatever... but if she is just left lying out there within 2 blocks why have they not found her is my question... that is the only thing that makes this not work for me.  a month of heat and no one notices a dead body within 2 blocks?  I don't understand how that can happen.  If you know how that can happen or have an idea that might work, I am more than willing to go hmmmm, hey maybe he did do it. 

I look at every possible scenario imagineable, everyone should know that by now.  gee I have dug up everything I can find on everyone, I don't care who they are, and all the while I have my own ideas over here in my head what I think might be... but I am more than willing to work on anything and everything because that is just how I am... I know my own opinion is only as good as every other opinion and at times my own is a lot less believeable haha.  so I really am trying to figure this one out so I can figure out where her body would be if josh did something to her, or where she would be if he locked her up somewhere. 

sunshine12 thanks you for the kind words and deciphering my gibberish  ::MonkeyAngel:: I think, like Klaas, I'm a realist and look for would really could have happened and not what I want to pin on someone.

Trust me, there are certainly enough people around that we could all rail road, but that doesn't solve a case or bring closer for a family. And as far as I know - only one case has ever been solved on the net and that's not likely to happen too many moire times... but that doesn't mean that we should try.

As in Adji's case- I have always believed that was a local predator in the farmer's village. So close and the police missed it. In fact I think I know who did it.

As in Caylee's case - I always believed that Casey killed Caylee and the parents helped her along the way and should be charged with obstruction.

In Brooke Bennett's case I always believed it was the uncle and had her body within .1 of a mile of it's final locale.

In Madeleine McCann's case I always thought it was a predator and a seasoned predator at that. I never believed that Gerry and Kate committed a crime that was without a body while on holiday. I never wanted Gerry and Kate as my GP or a neighbor and certainly not a family member, but I never ever suspected them as the Portuguese police did.

I could list many other cases but that's not helping find Lindsey. And in her case - I'm not seeing a local as the culprit, I could be wrong and the goal is not to be right but to find a clue or commonality that helps find a child that is missing.

DD

When I consider the Jessica Lunford case.  This precious little girl was found burird on a property a stone throw away from her home weeks following her disappearance.  In the meantime search efforts were being conducted far and wide.

In the process of elimination ... I consider Josh Baum a person of interest unless he was sitting at home with his Mom between 9:15 PM and 9:30 PM ... the time Lindsey left the Baum residence.  This is where he should have been if he had adhered to the instructions of the "friend of the family" who intervened in the bike argument between him and his sister.

Janet

to be truthful, kara and scott(her bf) were my very first people to look at along with kara's brother wesley and her sister in law michelle flostrom/sheedy.  because kara was on the board I did not put all that stuff out here LOL  but I was behind the scenes asking her straight up about anything I wondered about and if I found something I told her and asked her to explain it.  I did not overlook a one of them.  believe me, poor kara probably thought omg this woman thinks we did this.  but she stuck with me and answered me and even gave me more info that I doubt most people would.  hey I even asked her if she were involved in drugs and could someone be mad at her and thought because lindsey left her house it was one of her kids... I asked her everything.  I checked them out in AZ, all over washington etc.  I checked out her relatives.  I know about her bf and I asked her a lot of things.  I had wondered if lindsey ever really left that house or if she left and one of them caught up with her for whatever reason.  I just did not post all this stuff because she was on the board and I thought perhaps she would leave if I started posting that stuff on here, so I emailed it all to here and asked.  I didn't find anything bad on her bf or her.  doesn't mean I didn't miss something.  so what is my take on them.  truthfully.  I don't know, but nothing for me to go wow they did this.  you have no idea what I thought might have happened when this first started.  I really ragged kara.  I'm supprised she did not tell me off good.  LOL but she didn't.  had it been vise verse.. she would have got an earful from me LOL

if you have some thoughts let me know, I will check...

well they probably transported him back to wisconsin where he abscounded from... or hmmmmmm