Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
Obama's quiet years in N.Y.C.
 BY HELEN KENNEDY
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
 Sunday, January 14th, 2007

 You can usually spot future politicians in college.

 They're the backslappers and the organizers, the ones who talk your ear off, appear so sure of themselves and always seem to pop up when a camera starts snapping.

 Barack Obama wasn't one of those guys.

 The Illinois senator, who has become a political superstar and is expected to jump into the 2008 presidential race any day now, spent three years in New York as a young man and graduated from Columbia University - where he barely left a mark.

 "He was not at all a high-profile student, not the sort of guy who is class president, who everyone says is going to have a future in politics," said Stuart Levi, a fellow international relations major from Columbia's class of 1983.

 "It's funny - there are people like that from my class, but he wasn't one of them," said Levi, now a lawyer at Skadden, Arps.

 Obama, who writes in his best-selling memoir of moving to New York from Los Angeles in his junior year after he decided to get serious about his future, was a transfer student who lived off-campus in a series of iffy sublets and spent a lot of time in the library.

 Many of his classmates don't remember Obama. He's not in the yearbook. Columbia couldn't find a picture of him at school.

 "You didn't see him at a lot of events and activities," said classmate Gerrard Bushell, who remembers Obama's arrival mostly because there weren't many black students.

 "I remember him being very quiet. He had a nice smile. A thoughtful approach. You knew he was smart, but you never got a sense that here was someone who wanted to overwhelm you."

 Bushell, who went on to work in city politics, said he was impressed with Obama but didn't foresee his meteoric rise.

 "We knew he had what it took to be successful," he said. "But this is amazing."

 Obama opened his book, "Dreams from My Father," in Manhattan, when he was living in a dump on E. 94th St. that he described vividly.

 "The apartment was small, with slanting floors and irregular heat and a buzzer downstairs that didn't work, so that visitors had to call ahead from a pay phone at the corner gas station, where a black Doberman the size of a wolf paced through the night in vigilant patrol, its jaws clamped around an empty beer bottle."

 Obama's first night in New York was spent curled up around his luggage in an alleyway on W. 109th St. - because his new landlord was AWOL.

 He claims one of his roommates while in New York was an undocumented Pakistani immigrant named Sadiq, although he warns some of the people in the book are "composites."

 Obama wrote that the wealth and stark racial divisions of Manhattan in the early 1980s had a profound effect on him.

 "I stopped getting high. I ran 3 miles a day and fasted on Sundays. For the first time in years I applied myself to my studies and started keeping a journal of daily reflections and very bad poetry," he wrote.

 "You're becoming a bore," his friends told him.

 He went to socialist conferences at Cooper Union and African cultural fairs in Brooklyn and started lecturing his relatives until they worried he'd become "one of those freaks you see on the streets around here."

He wrestled with his racial identity, and one of the casualties was his year-long relationship with a wealthy white girlfriend. "I pushed her away," he wrote.

 After graduating, he took an analyst job at Business International Corp. to pay off his loans while looking for a grass-roots organizing job. He had an office and a secretary but it bothered him to be the only black executive, he wrote, so he quit.

 Soon after, Obama lit out for a $13,000-a-year job as a community organizer in Chicago - where his destiny awaited.[/url]

I don't take to heart anything negative you Monkeys say about Barack Obama. He is young, healthy and ever so intelligent and CLEAN. Say what you wish but remember my words, one day he will be president.

I feel a bit of a fraud posting anything about American politics as I do not understand the philosophy behind either party.  Geez,  I barely understand our two main Australian political parties, but I must say over the years their aims and objects have gradually drawn closer together and now there is very little to choose between them on a party basis.
But back to this subject.  I must say that it is amazing how the personalities come across on the TV and I guess I am a bit sensitive in that way.  My impression of Mr Obama is that he is a very interesting man and will make great progress in politics.  I agree with Louise that he has a good aura about him and it would not surprise me to see him as President in the not too distant future.

I don't understand why living a quiet life in NYC is considered a bad thing. Bush 43 might have been better off living a quiet life and forgoing the drinkin' and druggin' when he was young. At least give Obama credit for having the intelligence and willpower to get himself on the right path. He certainly didn't have Daddy's money to lean on. He is a self-made man. I can respect that.
If someone doesn't agree with Obama's politics, so be it. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure I would agree with all of his ideas. Once he declares his candidacy, I will examine them closely too. But right now, everyone is in a tizzy about him prematurely. Hillary will give him a run for his money, and he may choose to wait.
Personally, I think he'd be a much better leader than Hillary, and would be more electable, but it may not be his turn yet. She has a lot of power in the Democratic party, and she will use it.

I find it refreshing.  I can't say I know enough about his political views to vote for him (or not) but I am keeping my eye on him.  I agree he will likely be president someday.  

Ever since the live evening televised speech Bush made in from of Congress in the days after 9-11, I cannot stomach Hilary Clinton.  While most of congress and the nation were somber and attentive, Hillary was photographed laughing and talking during Bush's speech.  Politicking with her cronies while our nation was in crisis.  That picture is forever etched in my brain and I will never vote for her.

Well, apparently Barack did do drugs.... see the bold above, and he can't date a woman in his youth because she's white???

sorry folks these are the comments that trouble me... it speaks of a mindset that I am not sure I agree with.. (the gf comment)

Yes, it takes courage to get clean but why is it so wonderful that Obama did that ... and yet Bush is condemned?  sorry y'all it's the same either way IMO...

Mrs. Red,

I cannot recall any derogatory comments re GW's alcohol and cocaine abuse. It was discussed but he would not talk about it. It is documented that he was an abuser.  Yet he was elected. He was not condemned, it was ignored.

It's wonderful for anybody to get clean, doncha think? Even Barack?

Barack is around 46 and got clean years ago. Bush did NOT begin to try to get clean until his 40s. So who do you suppose has the most brain cells left?

I will not vote for Barack and  think those who do are accepting a risk to this country that is naive. Barack is muslim.

Obama and apostasy from Islam
Thomas Lifson
Barack Obama was born to Muslim father, married to an American atheist. His father's religion is the reason both his first and middle names, Barack and Hussein, are Islamic in origin.

According to Islamic scripture, one born to a Muslim father is a Muslim. Forever. Because according to Muslim law and tradition, the penalty for leaving the faith is death.

Today, Barack Obama proclaims his adherence to the Christian faith. This would seem to make him a potential target for death, according to at least the more militant adherents of Sharia law.  Apostasy is a capital offense in several Muslim countries.

Dr. Jack Wheeler has noticed this circumstance, and hopes that an enterprising journalist will question Obama about whether or not he feels threatened by his apostasy, and ask him for an outright denunciation of the practice of enforcing the death penalty, and a call for religious freedom in Islamic countries.

    The odds are high that he will answer no to the first and yes to the second. As an oily politician, he will try to squirm out of a clear definitive yes with no wiggle room. But it should not be difficult for a smart journalist to get him to agree without reservation that Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states...  

        Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion. This right includes freedom to change his religion or belief.

    ...applies to Muslims

    Once Obama condemns the Moslem tradition of death for apostasy, then he can be asked:  

    The Koran famously quotes Allah as saying in chapter (sura) 2, verse 256 that there should be ‘no compulsion in religion.' Yet numerous sayings of Mohammed known as hadith which form the basis of Islamic Sharia law quote Mohammed as saying ‘If a Moslem discards his religion, kill him.' So are you telling Moslems that Allah was right but Mohammed was misquoted, and their Sharia law tradition on apostasy is wrong?

    You can see how much fun there is to be had with this.

Wheeler is quite correct that Obama is theoretically under the threat of death. It would be far more than merely amusing to get his views. I would rather not see this circumstance as an opportunity for a gotcha with the media's Democrat golden boy of the moment. It is long past time for non-Muslims to demand that Muslims offer reciprocity in the realm of tolerance for other faiths. The West, over the course of several difficult centuries, has created tolerant societies, from which Muslims greatly benefit on the basis of equality. Yet Muslim theology and practice in several important countries do not offer the same tolerance.

This asymmetry must end. If Barack Obama can help raise this issue, based on his own unique circumstances, I would not seek political advantage, I would support him in it.  But of course, if he refused to make such a call, that would raise many red flags.

Hat tip: Andrew Bostom

For Nonesy,

I copied this post for you. I posted it on December 11, 2006.  

Mrs. Red also said he was a Muslim but he is not.

Barack Obama is not a Muslim, he is a Christian.

****************
With all the hoopla and media coverage today about Barack Obama in New Hampshire, it was reported by John Gibson on FOX that he is a Christian, not a Muslim. His father was a Muslim from Kenya and his mother was a white Christian from Kansas. He belongs to Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ.

His parents divorced when he was two and the father went back to Kenya. His mother remarried.

Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. of Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya, and Ann Dunham of Wichita, Kansas. His parents met while both were attending the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student. In his 1995 memoir, Dreams from My Father, Obama describes a nearly race-blind early childhood. He writes: "That my father looked nothing like the people around me –- that he was black as pitch, my mother white as milk –- barely registered in my mind."
*****************

Louise,

I am confident that the truth of Barack will be exposed and certain what you are posting as the truth is not reality, but that you very much want to believe in Barack. Hopefully this election will be an exercise in critical thinking skills by our voters, our lives may well depend upon it.

Barack HUSSEIN Obama is a Muslim, and anything put out to the contrary is pure propaganda.  He is a Muslim; he doesn't want it known for political reasons.  No patriotic American would vote for a Muslim to lead this country.  And, Nonesuche, my tiara is off to you on this one; I agree with you 100%!!!!  The American voters need to get educated and know who these candidates really are, and the most important thing they need to know is that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim.

Dear Nonesy,

Yes, I very much want to believe in Obama. I can't explain how passionately I feel and strong I feel that I know a star when I see one.

But I'm with YOU 100% in wanting to know everything about Obama. If it exposes him as a fraud, I'd rather know it sooner than later. He is going to be scrutinized under a microscope. I'm with you ... let's wait for more information.

Love. Louise

Does he belong to a Mosque? Do you see him with a prayer rug, facing Mecca 5 times a day? Has he been to Mecca?  How does one practice the Muslim faith without observing the rituals? His wife does not wear a burka, nor do his daughters. You state that he is a Muslim, but he does not live that lifestyle nor does he observe Muslim Holy Days. Does he read the Koran? You don't know those answers. You are making assumptions based on stereotypes.
Please do not make statements about his true faith until you know all the facts. My father was a Baptist, but I am a Methodist. My brother is a Catholic. I have a Jewish last name, but I am not Jewish, nor is anyone in my family as far back as 200 years. You cannot assume anything about  a man by the name his parents chose to give him.
I have a good friend who is Jewish, and his last name is Hall. He is tall,  has blonde hair and blue eyes:wink:

My opinions are based on educated facts and I'm firm about them; I state them and they are non-debatable for me.  Barack HUSSEIN Obama is a Muslim who does not want that known for political reasons; he has illusions of grandeur politically.  Anyone who does not get educated about his background and naively believes him does so at their own peril, as does anyone who identifies with him.  I am firm in my belief and there will be no debating it for me.  Hopefully, his political enemies and the better-educated American voters will defeat him quickly.

Darling pdh3,

Your post was very astute. Thank you so much.

And now I'm going to do something to honor you.

I'm standing on a chair, clapping clapping clapping.

so those of you that really love Obama.... what about he couldn't stay with his girlfriend because she is/was white???  I am sorry but that is a mindset that is worrisome not to mention the whole Muslim thing..... and do check out the church he attends.... it's not mainstream.....

Oh and let me add.... when he spoke to the inner city Chicago church... it certainly wasn't the astute, well spoken Obama of the media.... it smacked of racism... and that is one quality I despise in any human being -

Mrs. Red,

Are you saying something is wrong with Barack Obama because he wasn't comfortable with a white girlfriend? Maybe there was zero chemistry. Could that be the reason?
**********************
Mrs. wrote: so those of you that really love Obama.... what about he couldn't stay with his girlfriend because she is/was white??? I am sorry but that is a mindset that is worrisome not to mention the whole Muslim thing..... and do check out the church he attends.... it's not mainstream.....

What facts? From where? You cannot state "facts" without proof. How do you know your sources are correct? I could say I know for a fact that he's a snake handler, but without a source that is reliable, no one should believe it.
I am not naive, and I am college educated, and very well read. I resent the implication that I am not quite smart enough, and should get my facts from an unsubstantiated source such as your post.
I will review each Presidential candidate with an open mind, and listen to the plans and ideas brought forth by all of them before making a decision.
I'm not blindly going to follow the rhetoric of any political party.
This pointing fingers at people and calling them "Muslims" reminds me of the Salem Witch Hunts.
Darleen.....does Barack Obama float?

Louise-

I think you are missing the point regarding the white girlfriend by taking it out of context within his own quote, that she was a casualty of his 'internal' struggle with his own racism.

My concern is that he's certainly not mainstream as he he hopes many will perceive him to be, and he seems to continue to have a struggle with rascism as evidenced in some of his speeches.

pdh3-

I am not basing my contention that Barack is muslim upon his upbringing or heritage, but on information that others within his own party have been gathering and validating. He only declared he was 'exploring' running for President last week, until he officially declares I don't think any of this information will emerge publicly. If validated information proves Barack has underground ties to any measure of radical religion I will oppose him however possible. I do think he has radical tendencies and I think a radical of any form, such as a radical christian fundamentalist, would be an ominous choice for the role of president.

[quote="mrs. redoff,
 
 
Yes, it takes courage to get clean but why is it so wonderful that Obama did that ... and yet Bush is condemned?  sorry y'all it's the same either way IMO...[/quote]

That is an excellent point Mrs.

I rarely talk politics on this forum, in fact it is probably the 1st time I have posted on this thread.  All I know about this politician are the same things you all know, from what is in the news...

He may very well be a great person with young fresh ideas and best intentions.

But I would be fooling myself if I did not admit that I am uncomfortable with the possibility that he is connected to the Muslim Religion in any way, and I know that is not PC but it's how I feel.

Frankly who wholeheartedly trusts any politician? They all have their personal agendas.  They all wears masks covering who they really are to a certain extent..   I am in no way saying I think or am I comparing him to a terrorist....But the fanatics who brought down our Towers seemed to blend right into our society and look what happened....Whamo.  

I would not feel good about Obama becoming our President.  

Right now our Country has to walk on eggshells regarding being politically correct and terrorists are living among us...planning destruction.  We can't fool ourselves thinking it could not happen again...

I don't know if any of this made sense but I guess the point I'm making is I would hate to find out other things about him when it's too late...

That is an excellent point, Jacqueline, and every American voter really ought to ponder it.  Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim, and no muslim ought to be allowed into our White House for obvious reasons.

Once again...my point was missed.
You cannot assume someone is of any religion based solely on a name, or even family history, in some cases. You should not state something as a fact, when you do not back it up with reliable sources. It's just your opinion, not a proven fact. Highlighting portions of Barack Obama's name still does not make him a Muslim. He may very well be sympathetic to Muslims....we do not know that at all.
He will be thoroughly investigated, and any negative information will come out. If it is from a reliable source, then so be it. Until that time, no one should assume things that may not be true. The hysteria over a name, or where he lived as a small child is not proof of anything. He spent many formative years in the US also.
I am neither for, nor against Barack Obama or anyone else. What I object to is opinion being stated as a known fact. In the world of the internet, and instant information and technology, the truth will be known about all politicians from now on. There really will be no place to hide anymore, or to have a secret life. So just wait for the information on Obama to surface, and we will know more about him. But do not assume he is unpatriotic without really knowing the truth.

No, PDH3 you do make an excellent point and I am sorry I did not acknowledge it earlier in my post.

But I am afraid that even if more info comes out stating his record is clean I will still be guilty of not having complete trust in him...I guess that is another wound left over from 9-11.

I'm not proud of feeling that way, but what has been brought out so far, does give me an uneasy feeling....Yes, hysteria over a name and the fact he does have certain muslim ties....It bothers me... :cry:

I don't want an Osama in the whitehouse....Would not want a Hitler or a Castro either....  I'm just saying that the reaction to his middlename and his school hits me in a negative way.....It's not fair to him, I know that...

But after the Towers went down, my guard went up, and it's still there.

pdh3-

I can't quote the sources I have for I was asked not to. I do trust them however, they aren't politicians but rather industry leaders who help to bankroll these huge campaign war chests, or rather two who do.

I will suggest if you haven't read some of his speeches in churches and regarding religion that you do so, there is much out there on the web in direct quote and content.

I will say that as a voter however, I am entitled to my 'opinion' however unworthy you may feel it is, just as you are to yours.

none - you misunderstood. I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't think it's right to state opinion as fact.
I was replying to Darleen's assumption that I was uneducated and not quite smart enough to understand the implications of someone's name. I refuse to judge someone based on that.
I am not championing Barack Obama. I am mostly neutral on all candidates right now, and I said earlier that I will evaluate all of them when the time to vote is here. I am aware that there is a lot of material out there on Barack Obama.
 It's not fair to assume things about me either.

I find it (groping for the right word here) worrisome, scary, appalling perhaps, that the entire Muslim faith has become our enemy.  I understand the fear; I feel it too.  But, for me, it is not the religion that is bad but the radical minorty that believes that violence is the answer.  There are those in our own society who would interpret the Bible in such a way as to believe it is ok to use violence to rid the world of Jews, Catholics, pro-abortionists, etc., but few of us would argue that Christianity is evil.  I personally believe that the dividing line is belief in violence.  
 
Jung said that in an insane asylum patients are far more dangerous when suffering from fear than wrath or hatred.  Because of 9/11 we are a nation filled with fear, and rightly so.  But we mustn't lose our rationality and our ability to think critically.  It is wrong to condemn good citizens for their ethnic or religious affiliations.  Should we round up all ethnic and practicing Muslims and put them into a camp, as we did to the Japanese in WWII?

As far as the war in Iraq, I don't see how it is possible to fight this cultural, ideological battle that is taking place across many countries with conventional warfare in the streets of Iraq.  At best, if ultimately successful, we would only be plugging a leaky boat.  I feel the military needs to seek out, develop and learn to use newer modern methods of warfare because we are always at least one step behind the terrorists.  Having greater firepower and a huge military presence isn't doing the job.  The terrorist seem to do a lot more with a lot less.  We need modern military leaders who can think and act like terrorists, who can collect intelligence and move across geographical lines, quickly and stealthily, rather than behave like WWII generals fighting in the trenches.

As far as our successes and all the good we are doing in Iraq, I would like to hear about them so that I would not feel so angry and conflicted about our involvement.  What have we done and accomplished?  If the government is accountable to me as a taxpayer, I want to know what we are doing.  Is the media, which is said to be so left leaning, truly stifling a lot of the info coming out of Iraq?  And the White House, who should be doing cartwheels over these accomplishments, has no way to get this info to the American public?  Seems to me everyone loved the media at the beginning of the war when they were embedded with the troops and gleefully reporting the fall of Baghdad - so what happened, the media suddenly changed?

JMO as always, of course.

Great post A's.

pdh3, your posts on the issue have been outstanding, and in fact it is those posts that gave me the courage to post on the Political Forum again.

A's-

I regret you see my posts as paranoia, you will likely be even more frightened by me at the end of this one I suppose. I don't trust the media, not ever. The media follows emotional sentiment, it's no longer the Cronkite era but rather what boosts the ratings overnight, no quality but rather flash over substance.

As for Iraq and terrorism, I honestly think the global war against terrorism is already lost. I often wonder how much longer my children will have before they are blown off the face of our planet, and I feel guilty for having brought them into a world with so much threat and terrorism as well. I really do not feel there is a strategy that can work against a radical faction of muslims who have been planning this ruin of our world for over a decade? Their network across just northern Europe and Canada is like a labryinth, poised to act long before we can react. Are you aware of the copious amounts of terrorist cells up and down our own east coast now?

I have been waiting for see anyone on these threads quote Obama's speeches, but to date haven't seen one quote. I've read all I can find, I began that quest due to concerns over his muslim heritage and cautions by friends who know far more than myself regarding politics. Post reading his speeches, his quest to bring religion to the senate floor did it for me - that one point alone, no I would never vote for him.

that has nothing to do with his muslim heritage.

Thanks, A's. I don't think I'm very popular. :lol:

I just maybe feel a little more optimistic about how this will all play out. I believe in the ingenuity of Americans, and I think very soon, we will leave our dependence on oil in the dust. Imagine how liberating that will be. The
Middle East will no longer be pulling our energy strings.
I don't think Barack Obama means harm to the US, and I think he's patriotic, even if I don't agree with all of his ideas. I don't see him as evil incarnate, but as a very liberal Democrat. He's Oprah Winfrey's stand-in.  :lol: She's got the money and he's got the political capital.
The US has faced serious threats many times before in our past, and we have risen to the challenge. I believe we will rise to this one as well, and that our outstanding military will accomplish it's goals, if we support them and give them what they need to win.
And I don't see being optimistic as being naive. I think the American way is to never give up.

Hi Nonesuche-

Please understand that I did not in any way direct my post at you or any individual poster, but at the general consensus of posters and their views about Islam and the media.  My post could have gone in any of the Obama threads; I just posted it here because it was the last one I looked at.

As for Obama, I have no idea what he is about at this point.  There is a lot of time before the next election, and there will be a lot of information to come.  Although I am registered as a Dem I feel no need to vote along party lines and I will educate myself and vote for whomever I feel is the best candidate.  So please do not take my comments as an endorsement of Obama in any way.

LV, my dear... it was his words that said it was because she was white.... also, like I said when he gets in the inner city it's a different tune... I don't like that... it smacks of racism in my book.... JMO.

PHD3, A's and Jaq... the point of this thread and discussion is to educate ourselves.... and discuss it's how we determine what it is we think... there is no popular or unpopularity here... at least there shouldn't be.  I love the discussion.....

having said that...

I am sorry that no one in the Muslim religion comes out or came out and declared the terrorism wrong... they seem, IMO, to be like the Germans that didn't agree with Hitler but weren't going to rock that boat either...

and Jaq, my sistah, I totally agree with you....

None, I wish I had a copy of the speech I heard Obama make in the church in Chicago. I would post it... even better if it would be written in the slang language he spoke in when he made it.... I think it would better illustrate my point when I say I see a racist when I hear him....

My first choice for President would be Condi... but she isn't running.  SO I am a huge fan of Gulliani right now.  I think he gets it...

thoughts??

I don't think I am very popular either, lol, but we are a bit less conservative than most of the political forum posters.  I personally enjoy posts that are thought provoking so that we may see different points of view and perhaps learn.  Discussion is good.  I try to be open to things, but I have opinions too. Sometimes posters take an inflexible "this is the way it is" or "this is the way it has to be" tone, closing the door to discussion rather than opening it, and this bothers me.

I think we are going to read the door closing with regard to how thoughts are being expressed... I am very passionate with my thoughts, I am the first to admit that, but I do read and think about what's posted.  

I just see things sometimes in a way that says if A is ok then why not for everyone?  Or if person B does something and it's good then why is that same action not considered good if person B does it???  I try to have equal standards.... maybe it's not always accomplished but I do try...LOL

Mrs Red-

I have been searching for a complete online copy of his speech at Trinity for nearly an hour, I find it remarkable the full transcript isn't readily accessible, only excerpts. I also find it interesting that in all of these threads regarding Obama not one mention has been made of the 12-point Black Values System that is the foundation of Trinity's religious doctrine. The basic tenants for the 12-point systen are first comes one's devotion to God, second is one's allegiance to the 12-point system?

Disturbing...... for published in the online copy of the Illiniois Review is a letter from a young black female member at Trinity defiling a columnist who questioned Obama's rhetoric. Here is the link to that exchange, I think it's timely to read for indeed it does decidedly speak to the reverse rascism you have been referring to prior.

The columnist is detailed as "Column" and the female Trinity member as "Answer".

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2007/01/a_response_from.html


Of his religious affiliation, Obama has written:

"I was drawn to the power of the African American religious tradition to spur social change. [...] In the history of these struggles, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death; rather, it was an active, palpable agent in the world. [...] It was because of these newfound understandings–that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice, or otherwise retreat from the world that I knew and loved–that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized. It came about as a choice and not an epiphany; the questions I had did not magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side of Chicago, I felt God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth."

What I find disconcerting is this, I am not a classic conservative. I am a moderate. I do not see religious doctrine of evangelists or Obama's Trinity Church as the resolution for all perceived inequities or problems in our existing government and country. I would not support Jerry Falwell for President and I will not support Obama for President.

It is abundantly clear that Obama is utilizing the history of discrimination as a large part of his platform to right what he and others perceive as the wrongs in our country. After reading the commentary of this young african-american woman, I am frankly terrified. This is the "everyman" face of Obama, these are his staunchest supporters.

We as voters have to read between the lines of what politicians are saying, the onus is upon us to do this, and to do our homework.

That being said, I did not vote for Bush in this last election. So say whatever you will, I am not a staunch republican. That being said I think Bush is taking a bath for the worst scenario for war we have ever faced, a war which can't be fought easily in the midst of civil war in Iraq and against some of the most reprehensible terrorist factions on our planet. There are no textbooks for war of this profile and as you related Mrs Red, the calls by our Democrats to pull all the troops and end all support are not the resolution either. I am trying to judge our leadership on how they adapt their strategy in the face of the most twisted and challenging war we could have imagined.

The normal rules of previous wars simply do not apply, IMO.

Thanks NONE.....

I agree completely - the normal rules don't apply.  It's a scary time we live in and if we leave it up to the politicans then we can kiss our collective behinds good-bye.  I truly don't believe that politicans have any interest in anything other than getting and staying elected so that the normal rules don't ever apply to them.  They simply do not live normal lives and have no clue about the everyday, working, average American.  They never have been and never will be..... and for those of you that are going to scream about rich Republicans, please note that Democrats are by far wealthier.....

I stated in a post earlier that you can find good and bad in both major political parties, and in all candidates. No one has the market cornered on perfection. Political office means Power, and Power is corrupting. It doesn't matter who sits in the White House, or who controls Congress.....there is always the potential for abuse of Power.

What makes me uncomfortable about not going by the rules is that who decides what rules stay or go? For how long? There needs to be accountability somewhere, and the adjustments do not need to be open-ended. Our civil liberties need to be protected as much as possible. We need to be careful about how much we arre willing to give up, because we may never see things return to pre 9/11 status.

none - I am not a liberal Democrat. I am a moderate and an independent. I prefer to vote for the person I think has most of the qualities needed for effective leadership. I try not to get caught up in all the rhetoric and the things that can confuse the real issues.

I disagree with the Democrats as well on the troop issue. More troops are needed to quell the violence. I just think it should have been done when the military first requested it, and not as a result of lost political clout.

As far as the next President.....who do we have with enough leadership qualities to unite our efforts to win the war on terror? Who is up to that tremendous task?

pdh3-

I didn't mean to sound as if I am lecturing, I guess I have strong opinions regarding politics as many seem to....

I agree with all you've written in your last post and I didn't mean to imply there isn't corruptive influences in all measure of high-level politics. If we examine just the lobbyist and/or campaign war chest practices and relationships alone, that could keep us busy without ever going near foreign policy or the current war's politics.

I do however feel this current war is larger and more complex than even GWB ever imagined it could be. You can't know what you've stepped into until you are there, all the risk management, strategy, and planning could not have prepared our leadership for a straight path in this. I think at best our expectations should have realistically been throughout that we should adapt with agility, then keep reformatting the strategy.

IMO Obama is seizing a moment here, one when there is little black-american representation in the Senate creating a sense of inequity with many voters, and using religious fervor as fuel for his agenda. I see smoke so I'm looking for the fire but then I think many are. Today the national news reported the latest Democratic polls report Hillary in first place currently, Obama in second, and Edwards in third.

Hillary is hosting a Q & A at her campaign website tonight, I plan to go pose a question or two and see what comes back  :wink:

None - I did not feel lectured at all. I appreciate your input. Truly, I do. Due to your experience with Rick, I think you have a unique perspective on Iraq, and I am paying attention.  
A political forum is a tricky place for a discussion, because feelings run so strongly among posters. But I have not found you personally being condescending to anyone.
When I think about what the next President will face, I wonder why anyone would want to be elected, but Power is also blinding. I just hope the American people get it right this time.

A wolf in sheep's clothing with access to the FBI, NSA, and all the intelligence agencies could proclaim victory very quickly.  If this man was not a poseur for Musims, he would be beheaded by his Muslim brothers quickly for claiming the name of Obama and Hussein which are Muslim names for apostocy.  You will get the theocrat you vote for.  Have a good day.  The guillotines and ovens are being readied while we debate. No longer worth my while.  The likes of which cow-towed to Hitler will do the same with Obama.

I am voting for Gulliani should he make it that far..... other than abortion, which I disagree with him on, I agree with him - and I think he gets it where terrorism is concerned.

Why at this particular time with the Muslim world declaring The Third Great Jihad in full force would it be expedient and best for this country to have not only a Socialist but a Socialist and a Muslim in the White House?

The timing is just too suspect.  What qualifications does Obama have?  Not one bill bears his name and it is very difficult to find texts of his speeches that have not been removed from the internet for some reason.

Hillary the Socialist will be enough of an impediment for this country to overcome without adding the closet Muslim of Obama to the mix.  Together, this poor country won't stand a chance.

Yes, by all means brush up on the Misery Index and what it means.  Under Carter, banks were charging double digit int erst as prime rate for one thing, stifling all industry and financial growth.  

It is just asking too much for the American public to be expected to place their faith in a person who bears a Muslim name until this day and is far outside the mainstream religions as we know them.  A negative perception alone can bring down this thriving economy and I have no doubt that a Muslim in the WH would do just that.  Add to it the increased taxes the DNC always brings and I see nothing but hard times ahead for this country.

And this is before we even start dealing with the terrorist Global Jihad which will certainly be emboldened by the current surrender monkey mentality that has overtaken both branches of congress.

JMO but I am entitled to have one even if it is not in keeping with the fallacy of leadership where none exists.

.

I like Rudy Gulliani too, although I'm not thrilled with the fact that he was less than honorable in his first marriage. But no candidate is perfect, and he has lots of successful experience. He also has guts. If we had to vote tomorrow, he'd be my man too. I hope he makes it. He'd be good for the US because most people admire him for rising to the challenge after 9/11.

pdh3-

I agree about Guilliani and he has significant experience and track record. I don't like his personal past either but I've decided the latest report that more adult american women are unmarried than married for the first time in our history, is a reflection upon the impact even our leaders have had upon the institution of marriage. Just look at the Clintons? It would be different if Bill's proclivities had emerged only once with Jennifer Flowers, but no he's a serial tomcat and Hillary seems just AOK with it. It's a good thing some politicians aren't elected with consideration for how they manage their personal relationships.

I want a President with the capability to influence and gather support too within their own party so we can get legislation enacted timely, not by strong-arming but with leadership and vision. Rudy may be the only candidate in this race capable of that currently.

I sure hope I did this right.  If not please forgive.

Columnist Says Barack Obama 'Lied To The American People;'
Asks Publisher to Withdraw Obama's Book
Tuesday August 10, 9:22 pm ET


NEW YORK, Aug. 10 /PRNewswire/ -- Out2.com's independent contrarian columnist, Andy Martin, will publish a column and hold simultaneous news conferences in New York and London on Wednesday, August 11th to disclose he believes Barack Obama is a political fraud who "lied to the American people." Martin has asked Crown Books to stop sales of Obama's book because of its fraudulent content. Martin says Obama may be a threat to the Jewish community.

NEWS CONFERENCE DETAILS:


New York:
Time/date: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 11:00 A.M.
Location: Northeast Corner of Fifth Avenue and 65th
Street (Temple Emanu-El)



London:
Time/date: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 4:00 P.M.
Location: 2 Dryden Mansions, Queens Club Gardens London W14



"I feel sad having to expose Barack Obama," says Martin, "but the man is a complete fraud. The truth is going to surprise, and disappoint, and outrage many people who were drawn to him. He has lied to the American people, and he has sought to misrepresent his own heritage.


"Obama's life story is vastly different from the one he portrays. My point: if he will lie about his mother and father, what else is he lying about? Can we expect 'bimbo eruptions?'



"Fiction: Obama stated in his Convention speech: 'My father ... grew up herding goats.' The 'goat herder' claim has been repeated endlessly. It is a lie. Fact: Obama's grandfather, Hussein Onyango Obama was a prominent and wealthy farmer. His son, Obama's father, was a child of privilege, not privation. He was an outstanding student, not a herdsman.



"Fiction: Obama was given an 'African' name. Fact: Obama is a Muslim who has concealed his religion. I am a strong supporter of the Muslim community, and I believe Muslims have been scapegoated. Obama has a great opportunity to be forthright. Instead, he has treated his Muslim heritage as a dark secret. His grandfather was named 'Hussein.' That is an Arabic-Muslim, not African, name. Hussein was a devout Muslim and named his son, Barack Senior, 'Baraka.' Baraka is an Arabic word meaning 'blessed.' Baraka comes out of the Koran and Arabic, not Africa.



"Barack Senior was also a devoted Muslim, and also chose a Muslim name for his son, our own Barack Obama, Junior. Again, his name was an Arabic and Koranic.



Obama has spent a lifetime running from his family heritage and religious heritage. Would his father have given his son a Koranic name if the father was not a devout Muslim? Obama's stepfather was also a Muslim. Obama will be the first Muslim-heritage senator; he should be proud of that fact. There is nothing to be ashamed of in any of the three great Abrahamic religions.



"Fiction: Obama Senior was a harmless student 'immigrant' who came to the United States only to study. Fact: Obama was part of one of the most corrupt and violent organizations in Africa: the Kenyatta regime. Obama's father ran back to Kenya soon after the British left. It is likely Obama's father had Mau Mau sympathies or connections, or he would not have been welcomed into the murderous inner circle of rapists, murderers, and arsonists. I believe Obama's secret shame at his family history of rape, murder and arson is what actualizes him. Our research is not yet complete. We are seeking to examine British colonial records. Our investigation to date has drawn on information on three continents.



"And what about Obama's beloved Kenyan brothers and sisters? None of his family was invited to Boston to share his prominence. Are his relatives being kept in the closet? Where are they? More secrecy, more prevarication.



"It is time for Barack Obama to stop presenting a fantasy to the American people. We are forgiving and many would still support him. It may well be that his concealment is meant to endanger Israel. His Muslim religion would obviously raise serious questions in many Jewish circles where Obama now enjoys support," Martin states.



"Our investigation is continuing. In he meantime, Crown Books should stop selling Obama's novelization of his life. We have asked Crown to do that. Obama is living a lie."



RESOURCES: Martin's columns at Out2.com (Govt & Politics); E-mail: andy@andymartin.com



Source: Andy Martin Worldwide Communications

Very interesting Snoopy.  I'm curious since that was published in 2004, what Obama himself has said or will say about this.  I will have to look around on the web to see if I can find anything of a response or communication of this since it's writing.

Thanks for sharing!

You're welcome.  As soon as I find the real dirt I had on him I'll post it.  Several years ago when he came up on "my" radar I knew something wasn't right about him.  Had a lot of stuff on my old puuter when it crashed.

Had some stuff on miss Hillary too. Yea I'll definately find that again. 8)

There was little to no elaboration on that. Only that he had a racial identity "crisis" and this relationship was a casualty of it. The man's parents are from different races, cultures, religions, parts of the world, etc. I can only imagine the "identity" issues that would have invoked in me. I would like to know more about it, however. Was it a swing one way that swung back toward something he was comfortable with for himself? Choosing to marry within or without one's identified race, religion, etc. is a personal choice. I would not expect anyone to do as I have, nor welcome such an expectation of me from another.

IF you take that comment within the context of the speech he gave in Chicago which I had alluded to in the post, you would see where I am going with this....

if his family is of mixed race why would a white woman be an issue?  Three of my very, very closest friends are in bi-racial marriages... they do not express themselves or others in terms of race...  and they wouldn't break up due to color .... sorry, Justins, I don't buy it.

I think it would be difficult, as a biracial person, to figure out your place in the world. If Barack Obama had been dating a black girl, she also would have been a victim of his confusion. I have a very good friend who is married to a white guy, and she is concerned about her children finding their way in society. Imagine what that would have been like for Barack in his youth when biracial children were uncommon, and he had few people to identify with, unlike the children of today. They can look to Halle Berry, Derek Jeter, Mariah Carey and Tiger Woods, to name a few.
Unless you are biracial, how can you judge his confusion so harshly?

pdh3-

I am not Mrs but will toss my two cents worth in here, I'd expect Barack capable of dealing with this for he's an educated man, a Harvard grad and former head of their law review? I mean really now, the ivy league has been very racially diverse for many years now as well as international in it's student base.

He's had the top flight education and within those realms he should have figured out how to deal gracefully with these issues. He actually IMO delivered a measure of reverse discrimination by labelling that former girlfriend in that manner, which was unfair to her as well.

Given that I do not have anywhere near the knowledge of this man that it would require to take this any further, I will write in more general terms...

I am white. My son's father is black. Justin is biracial. While neither his father nor I are "pure" African or European, we are each of sufficient ancestory that we readily "fit" into the once sharply divided racial categories. Individuals who are biracial do not have that benefit, particular those of Obama's generation. Justin is fortunate that there are many, many children of his generation who are biracial, and will benefit from the commonality shared by those who are biracial.

Young adults seek their identities. Obama had the additional issue of race identification. Whether he ultimately determined that a mate's race was of low or no importance to him or that it was of high priority, it is his choice. How many white politicians are okay with a mate for themselves who is of a different race? Many are not, I would assume. Does that mean that they are racist and discriminatory against those of another race? No. It means only that they marry an individual who is the same "color" as they.

Thank you justins. That's what I was so awkwardly trying to say.

It goes deeper than a person's education, or exposure to other cultures. And I doubt any of us who are not biracial can even begin to understand what it must have been like for those children 30 or 40 years ago.

I don't disagree it was difficult to grow up as a biracial child for Obama, where we disagree is that this is a man who had the privilege to attend Harvard and also to head up their revered Harvard Law Review? Please think about that carefully, think about the realm that placed him in and yet he did drugs and alcohol to the extent he had issues ??? He was surrounded by the best of the best, yes that's a pressure but it's also a huge opportunity particularly for someone who was biracial at that time. Is this how he responds to pressure and opportunity?

Sorry, I can't agree there was any merit or GRACE in how he phrased his comments regarding his former white girlfriend. He has been exposed to venues far and away that should have prepared him for gracefully answering such questions.

I also repeat again, how many of you read the piece I posted from the Illinois Review? Talk about rascism, I am nauseaus everytime I read what that obviously literate Trinity christian wrote ???????? A staunch supporter as well as member of Obama's chosen church??????

It makes me wonder what on earth is said out loud behind closed doors there  :shock:

pdh3~ Read back per Nonesy's recommendation. Have to say that I agree with all you have stated here. I know little of the man, but suspect that will soon change. Should he toss his hat in the ring, then I will look closely at him, his views and his overall history.

Nonesy~ Honestly, I find nothing that was in what started this thread as anything that would alarm me. I agree with pdh3 that he seems to have worked hard to get where he is.

According to an ABC report at
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2822061&page=1





Obama's church's website?:

http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

justins that is their website and I hope many will read it. My concern is equal to black discrimination as it it to white. I abhor discrimination of any kind and few people truly understand what rascism is, or how to repair that. Case in point, I was praised for raising the diversity level in a tech department of a very well-known financial services company from 4% to over 36% in two years time. I was asked often how we accomplished that when few tech workers are black-american. It wasn't hard, we simply looked at ALL resumes from ALL venues and built creative and performing teams.

So I don't think I am a garden variety southerner with rascist overtones in my life, I do feel I am color blind or try to be, strive to be.

In reading this list on their about us page of the 10 tenets of the Black Value System, where does that leave us who are not black-american? If this is the core of Obama's value system, where do I fit in there? My children, or mexican immigrants, or indian immigrants ?

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Please read it carefully too, for this is the rhetoric:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

My church has members from many races and from all walks of life? I would feel the same way about having a president who felt only native americans deserve justice and support, not all americans?

or if only christians.........

or if only catholics..........

or if only muslims.........

the religion of this church is so biased toward reparations and I can't be convinced after reading that member's horrible letter which I posted, that this isn't a place full of anger as well.

there is no need for anger in our leadership's platform currently as President, but there is a great need for wisdom, resolve, and action.

Nonesy~ I really am not trying to play devil's advocate here....

Being a "white" person, it has been difficult for me to to initially see, and ultimately to comprehend even a tiny bit, that there is a unity among "people of color". The only thing that I can offer as being akin to it is the unity among women as sisters. As a woman, I can be and am  a "woman libber" (to use the old term) without squashing men in any way. The reality is that as I am secure in my own identity, I appreciate and like the differences between men and women. I certainly do not want a world without them, nor to make them subserviant to us. Women are deemed second class citizens by a large portion of the world. I do not want any sort of retaliation against men as a result. Instead, I want positive change, and will promote it for my sisters and myself, in a manner that benefits us and does no harm to men, while holding those who abuse us accountable (though some of them may see it as harm). If I understand it accurately, I believe that  black communities who are working toward effective change are simply working toward  assisting other people of color in actualizing themselves.

Please - don't bother to call me a racist because I think that Obama presents a problem... quite frankly, I think he is a racist...he is just better spoken than the usual suspects... Jesse, AL, et. al...

and what I personally saw in Obama's comments had nothing to do with a search for identity... it was more, in my eyes the dumping of his girlfriend due to her color.....

How exactly could Obama be having all these issues with a white woman when his mother is white?  He had his parents as an example, didn't he?  He walked among the elite of the elite.... and his color wasn't an issue at Harvard - was it?  Sorry y'all but I don't buy the whole crisis... he would have had that at puberty... not college.

justins if only what you have proposed here were the reality. I posted this letter in response to a political columnist questioning Obama's merit as HER candidate, and didn't post the letter back in entirety for it was so offensive.

I am unsure if any of you are reading it, this IS a supporter of Obama, this IS a literate black-american woman who is a member of the Trinity Church.

So forgive me but I don't think any of you will get the point until I post the entire letter with it's horrible horrible language. I also will state this for the first and last time, I would feel far better about this political forum if only I saw each of you researching as some do, unfortunately some are not doing their homework. This worries me and I won't be so quick to provide research or to defend my position to those who are not doing that same homework in the future.

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2007/01/a_response_from.html

Wednesday, January 17, 2007
Response from a self-proclaimed "radical, racist African American woman"
by Fran Eaton

Thought IR readers might be interested in a letter I received in response to my column in the Star two weeks ago ( here) on Obama's church and its 12-point Black Values System.  

Chanteay, the author, has given me permission to publish it on Illinois Review:

I am a radical, racist AFRICAN AMERICAN woman who wants to run for  President one day and sit in the BLACK HOUSE.  Let me help you out with your need for answers and when I am through you will wish that you had received an answer from Barack Obama instead.

From Star column: "As a non-denominational suburban white woman, I gather all this information and contemplate how Barack Obama could be my president."

Answer:  Who cares?  You are so quintessentially unimportant to the Universe and the greatest failure of created beings, I suggest you take in that reality before you go further.  We have had to sit under your kind and that is worst kind of offense.

Column:  "But at the same time Obama is a longtime, active participant in a church that prides itself in its African heritage and color of skin."

Answer:  Mr. Obama is a longtime, active participant in the blood and genes of the Original race of humankind and in that dark, deep, rich blood is the strength of dominion and GOD complete in the bonds of flesh.  The color of the skin is not an issue for him it is an issue against you.  There is a most natural sense of royalty, joint creatorship, dominion, power, strength, glory and wisdom that is inherent in every naturally African person and it is most unquenchable and unstoppable.

Column:  "It is troubling that his church’s doctrine may demand he promote affirmative action, racial quotas, reparations, bussing and more government programs dependent upon skin color.'

Answer:  You will soon wish that African-Americans continued to wait and see a show of God in you or even the most basest attempts at humanity.  We need nothing from your race.  OUR RACE CREATED YOU!!! through our failings to follow our Creator.  How dare you who corrupted everything on the earth and who came with so little of value to give to think we wait on you as our source!  

You are the devil.  You are a sick, demented race and it is as obvious as the lack of coloring in your skin.  At the least you are so mindlessly and presumptuously racist, read "corrective inferiority" that you think ill of a handful of programs used to correct HUNDREDS OF YEARS of wickedness?!?!  What do you have against bussing children???  And Reparations-  do you actually think that you and your sick children are supposed to blindly reap the benefits of HUNDREDS OF YEARS of racism without PAYBACK?!!!  You'd better hope for monetary remuneration at the least!  

Let me help you out with something else.  We have barely insisted on these things because nothing is worthy that will bring us closer to you and your filthy, disgusting selves.  You'd better be thankful anytime you see an African in your presence because as a race you were not intended to be hear and further Hell on Earth and you are in the presence of God when you are around the most damaged of us!

Column:  "If so, it would be disheartening to the progress we’ve made as a society, and our attempts to fulfill Dr. Martin Luther King’s dream that some day our children will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Answer:  Well, let's just say, Satan was given a mark so that all would be able to recognize him and you will see that in the mirror in your awful, deathly, colorlessness.  Judgment is already against your race and all your generations.  Know this- YOU CAN'T JUDGE US.  You could NEVER BE WORTHY.  You cannot even understand that kind of TRUTH AND WISDOM.  You were made counter to that and your babbling, at it's highest hope of humanity, is utter madness.

Column:  "Perhaps, at the very least, Barack Obama’s presidential campaign will open a frank exchange as to where race relations in this country are now and where they should be in the future."

Answer:  You white woman, are the likeness of a dog, and should be subjugated as such.  You and your man are not intended to rule or have a say in anything.  You are to be destroyed as a race altogether and denied existence and that will be the end of all questions.


Posted by IR Editor | Permalink

Lord have mercy!  Now, that is scary!  What faith/religion is that?  That is not a christian church...  what Bible do they use?   I would think Barack needs to reign in his church's congregation if he thinks he can win.  After reading the post of their church beliefs,  I was stunned to know a man who is seeking presidency could come from such a racist church, and now this letter from a person in the congregation?  Makes me sick!  I'm sure MLK would turn in his grave after reading something like that.

Just like stated in prior posts,  my church accepts all people, no matter race, size, income, background.  Only requirement is to be a human being.

Dihannah1-

That woman Chanteay is an admitted "radical" within the Trinity congregation. What I think we must face is that within their basic beliefs that "reparation" is clearly a driver and is mentioned several times.

Honestly in this day and age were my skin color black-american it would be far easier for me to find a job. Should I sue someone for this? Should I blame every black-american I see?

Of course not, I am a rational human being.

All of the About Us from Trinity's website:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

Commitment to God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.
 
The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Again,  what Bible to they preach out of?  That is a huge contradiction to my christian version....

That is as scary as the Muslim teachings of hatred and intolerance of others.   One is intolerance of other religions and the other is against race.  It's all radical!  

Looks like the white-american, christian is becoming extinct in this country.  Outnumbered by many other races and religions.  And to make it clear, I am not pointing out one race or religion, so please nobody take offense....   All I want is to just get along no matter what race or religion.  My God taught me to love all my neighbors!

And why am I supposed to be punished for what happend to African-American decades ago?  I wasn't their and I never said it was right.  Damn, let it go!

Dihannah1-

Thank you for responding to her diatribe for I was beginning to feel very alone in my concerns regarding it.

Like you, my church isn't about race for we live in a very diverse tech community and it simply would not fly here. We also have a strong hispanic population and indian population. Somehow we have escaped racial divides thusfar and IMO, that's the result of having learned from past mistakes?

Who can make reparations for all? We as women have had significant discrimination and I still don't see boardrooms flinging open wide or equal compensation across the board?

You know, I had read what you were speaking about in your posts previosly, but until I actually read it, did I realize how racist it realy is!   No Obama will not get past that, it will be more widely spread as time goes on.  Thank you for pointing it out to me and enlightening me to this!

As most are saying on here,  it's all about getting educated to empower us to make the right decisions come election time.

Sigh...

This woman is one individual expressing her own view (rabid, very angry, insulting, racial, intolerant, etc.).

I do not know that the majority of that congregation is as she is.

I do not know that Obama is as she is.

I will not base my opinion of one individual or an entire congregation on the rabid rantings of another.

The bolded areas of the church's info are not alarming to me. I am interested in further info on how they "remain true to our native land".

Forgot to add...

Obama may be the devil himself. Or not. I have seen no evidence that has been presented yet that would indicate that he is the devil in disguise, a good man or something in between.

Of course, he will be scrutinized, as all potential presidential candidates must be. And I will be reading, watching, listening and asking about various points in regard to him. Which is as it should be, IMO.

Just curious Justins.  Do you think you could walk into that church and feel welcome?  Do you think they would reach their arms out to you, unless could/would speak out for your love for "The (their) mother land"? AND  trust you in your words?    I tend to agree with None and co. that the church has to be racist for even putting that in their church doctrine?  
It's obvisous they only welcome African Americans, and that IS prejudice.
If they feel so strongly about the 'mother land', then why are they here?  Why not go to Africa and be faithful to the land you love so stongly?  

I am truly not being sarcastic in my questions, I really want to know the answers...

If that lady truly stands alone or with a few, I would think the church would speak up and defend itself.  My pastor would literally have a coronary if somebody in our church spoke out with such hatred as though representing the church's belief!  The entire congregation would be out in defense immediately defending its true doctrine, which is against hate of any kind.

If I were a senator running for president,  I certainly wouldn't want that type of hate speaking on behalf of my beloved church,  how humiliating that would be!   If my preacher did sit idly by and not defend itself, I would yank my family and children out so fast, I would never want my kids to learn such hatred!  You truly are who you surround yourself with....

Dihannah1-

I really admire how you related that, I share the exact same concerns and you expressed those so well.

Cannot answer your questions as to whether I would be welcome in that church. I can tell you that there are many churches in my small city that do not embrace or welcome people of color.

This is why I am so concerned about Obama's run for President and the willingness of those who are young and haven't studied history to embrace him and feel as if they are making changes in history....

Water seeks its own level.

Please ponder that statement.  The Church  RED and I attend is culturally and racially diverse, I would not have it any other way.  When I was in Sunday school, we sang "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world, red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight..."

granted the terminology would not be allowed today :roll:  but the point was always driven home to me... by my parents and attending Church...

so if there is a radical, racist  black woman in his Church, let's face it ... there are many, many more....

that kind of hate doesn't need to exist in the White House - we need a strong leader with strong values that will stand up and do the right thing.

My huge fear is that we are going to do in Iraq what we did in Vietnam... and cause the "Killing fields" all over again.

 If y'all don't know/remember what that was.... please let me know I will be happy to see if I can't explain it and I pray everyday that we don't make that mistake again.....

if the WORLD hates us... it would be because of politicans going places and NOT finishing the job

That is also racist, just totally wrong and such a terrible shame!  However, that doesn't make it right.  We are talking about a man who wants to be our president.  How can he ever bring our country together and end the divide?

I do not believe that my points are being understood, and so I will retire from this thread.

No please, I never want to discourage anybody for their views.  I am just posting my feelings, not condeming you.  I truly respect all, whether I agree or not.   I admit, I don't understand what you are trying to get at, because I don't agree.  But please don't think I am condemning you for your views....   We are both human and have our rights to our opinions....
I appreciate your thoughts, agreed or not!   :wink:

I do not see differing views as condemnation or disrespect. I just feel that I am not explaining my stance sufficiently.

As usual it's never FAIR Mrs. Red......

NONE don't feel alone.....what I read sickened me.......and my thought was God HELP all who are not black if he were elcted President

Those rabid rantings were NOT the words of Obama. They are from someone who is claiming to be a member of his church. Write him about the letter, ask him his view.

I just emailed Senator Obama at info@barackobama.com (Obama Exploratory Committee) and from his Senate website.

Hello. I am a member of a forum named Scared Monkeys at http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/  . During discussions regarding Senator Obama, the following site was referenced. The content is disturbing. I am interested in Senator Obama's response.

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2007/01/a_response_from.html



 I received the following automated response from the Obama Exploratory Committee:



Should I receive any further correspondence, I will post it here.

Justins, what a simple and sane approach.  I applaud your efforts.

A's fever-

this is where I will step in to cut the wheat from the chaffe here, please do not imply I am sane on this forum or any other. No one here has said such to you, not ever.

Perhaps you should spend some time tracking how Obama responded to his supporter Biden, marginal support on Obama's part at best.

he is not a messiah, Obama is a candidate, nothing more and nothing less.

well I meant to say imply I am NOT sane........reading what you wrote after all you protestations about others offending your sensitive sensibilities and then the sane remark......

truly  VERY disappointing

Nonesuche,

I was speaking to Justins, not you.  I made no such implication about you or any other poster and I am sorry that you took it that way.

I appreciate Justins' approach in going directly to the source.  You are free to approach this issue any way you see fit.  I certainly won't tell you how to spend your time and how to research your politics, so I would appreciate it if you would not lecture me on how to do so.

Who said Obama is a messiah??  As I've posted before, there is a very long time before the next election and there will be much more information disclosed before I will make my choice.  Do not label me as an Obama supporter, or supporter of any one else, at this time, please.

Thank you for the soupbone info.  I hope you have a good day.

A's-

I can't see "sane' as an appropriate word to use period, unless you are sensing insane behavior, so I can't swallow that explanation.

I used the word messiah for so many seem to be seeking just that, I think it's misguided in fact I'll go so far as to also say using good judgment along with some deep effort at research and evaluation might just yield some right choices.

I don't tell anyone who to vote for, here or elsewhere. I raise and explore issues and try to ask questions, no more and no less.

I encourage you to bring research to the thread, it appears few seem willing to do so, I have to wonder why.

So why was Tylergal so "over the top" when she used "those who" and yet it is OK to imply one poster is being sane, implying another is not?  She didn't address anybody by name, either.

No, what we have is one sided privilege.  Any implication is OK as long as it supports a certain mindset.  Only others are offensive.
And I see a definite pattern, too.

Do as I do, believe as I believe or your are insane?  Gee, one would surely expect more from those who claim the high road and such special sensitivity.  But then that is the same logic behind much of the Bush bashing today so it is not really surprising.


Nothing ever changes, does it?

Just my opinion but I am still entitled to hold one.  Maybe not for long considering what we now have in Congress but at this moment in time, I do still have that right.

.

You seem to be implying that to compliment one diminishes the other, which I do not accept.

Sorry if you find "sane" and "insane" unacceptable on the board.  Perhaps we should make a list of offensive words.  I should have said "sensible", oh wait, that would imply other posters are "insensible".  I could have said "good" post, but then other posters would think I meant their posts are "bad".  Maybe in addition to the list of unacceptable words we should ban posts that compliment other posters, because others might feel bad if their posts aren't complimented.  

Nonesuche,  I know you are referring to previous posts I made calling another poster's comments offensive.  My message that night is just to stay civil, please.  I stand by that.  In an opn forum I think I have a right to say what I think.  I also think you have a right to do so, and so I encourage you to continue to challenge me if you see fit.  I feel your posts here are much ado about nothing, but if you want to call me out, fine, I've no problem with that.

A's......I did not take your post as calling anyone insane. And I see nothing inappropriate in your post, either.
No one here has ever suggested that Obama is a messiah. He's just an option, right now. One of many.
We can hold him responsible for his own words, but not someone else's. There's nothing wrong in trying to get some clarification.

pdh3 -Thank you.

Anna - Whatever you say.  I'll not engage with you over this.

Thank you. As ridiculously simple as it is, it took awhile for me to realize that this was the approach to take (if I hear back).

Yes, I'm curious to see if he will respond.

A-s

Without fanfare nor need for attention on my part, I will take my much ado about nothing posts elsewhere.

I would like to see you and some others here actually contribute something, bring a piece of research or even an article to support your positions, but you do not.

I can spend my time in far more effective ways, that is abundantly clear to me now.

Carry on !

None,

To clarify - "much ado about nothing" referred only to your posts criticizing my post to Justins.  To me, that was clear.  Sorry if you thought otherwise.

As to not contributing anything to the forum, my understanding is that a forum is a place for public discussion - to share ideas.  If people want to research and post, that's wonderful, but is it a requirement here?   It is also my understanding that all monkeys are welcome, no matter how humble their contributions may be.

Ok, as I read pass the disagreements here,  one thing stands out to me.

What is Obama's response?  All I see is a generic automated email to join forces with him and his team.  I WANT to know his answer on his racial church or "one person's racial rantings" belonging to his church is?   I completely understand the letter is from a person in his congregation, but what about the churches decrees and his thoughts on this radical racists statements on white peope from HIS church????  What is HE going to do about ending racism by going to a racist church and bring this divided country together!?

I am still awaiting a response, which if given, will likely take a bit of time. Somehow, I doubt that he sits at a computer in DC reading every email and responding. He has people who look through and do whatever they do.

How about emailing your questions?

Your right, I'm sure it does take time to get through them all.  I am going to send an email to him myself.  I was curious if you had recieved response back.  Please post if/when you do and I will do the same with answers to my specific questions.  Thanks.

I will post any response that I may receive. Dinannah, I'm glad that you wrote to him (his office, anyway). I do wish that folks would write their questions to him, whatever the issue. While we may not receive a response via email, these are issues that he will need to publically address. The more who write, the more apparent it will be to him that there are issues that need clarification.

My letter to Senator Obama:

Dear Senator Obama,

In an attempt at making an educated decision on who I believe might best fulfill the job of President of the United States, I am doing some research on some of the top rated candidates before casting my vote.  I have some questions for you that I hope you will answer with regards to my concerns of your church and faith background.  I understand your claims of being Christian, however, reading up on your church's
so-called Concepts and Values, shown below. I would like for you to explain to me how you could possibly contribute in eliminating racism and bring this country together.  You see sir, my Christian church, as most, accept all race and backgrounds in its congregation with open arms.  The only teachings in my church are teachings right out of the Bible, which teaches all people are equal.  Your church doctrine it specifically only accepts Black/Africans and is unashamed, unapologetic and non-negotiable.  The word Black is mentioned 15 times and the word African 4 times, making it very clear to me as an Irish/German female Caucasian, I would never be accepted their.  That sir, is downright extreme racism, especially for a President of the US!  Can you please explain this and how you could/would benefit our entire country and bring together the divide that exists?   Please explain your desire to run for US President,  if your allegience lies with your 'native land' Africa.  I anxiously await your response.  

Sincerely,

Diana
Ohio
________
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

Commitment to God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.
The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

If the Church were a Temple and the words Jewish and Israel rather than Black and Africa, what would others view of it be?

I firmly believe all churches of God should accept everybody, regardless of race, religion or background, etc.   ALL men are equal!  God loves all people!  Period!  Anything that states otherwise is racist.

I might add, if a Muslim,  Buddhist, Kwanzan or an athiest walked into my church, yes they would be welcome!  What better way, than by example, to spread God's word of  equality, tolerance and love to all!

Justins

I find your question so important.

I cannot remember how many times Rabbi Schwartz (the one who sent emails from Israel during the war with Lebanon), has accepted a wildly (also widely) diverse group of people into his house for the Friday night Sabbath dinner. They usually have 60 people. I have seen young beautiful orthodox Jewish girls sitting at the Shabbas table with non Jewish boyfriends who had purple hair and facial piercings. The Rabbi welcomes everyone.

Your Question: "If the Church were a Temple and the words Jewish and Israel rather than Black and Africa, what would others view of it be?" I thought about this for quite a while. At first I thought Jews would be favored. Thinking further, I'm not so sure. Both Blacks and Jews have suffered greatly from prejudice. However, Jews get the better deal because their appearance does not indicate they are Jewish.  

I will never forget that I lived for several months at Fort Lewis, WA, where my father was stationed. The Army housing was set up like this. Rows and rows of buildings. Each building had two stories with four units. Our neighbors on the 2nd floor were a black soldier and his wife with two daughters that I made friends with. I swear to God, I noticed their skin was darker than mine but I had NO clue that it had any importance. I never had problems with anyone due to race.

I've had a wonderful time meeting and interacting with ALL people in my life.

I believe that I understand what you are saying, Louise. There is anti-Semitism still. I was hoping that with this question, it would provoke thought beyond what is apparently being perceived re: Obama's church. I find myself frustrated over the inability to describe my perceptions of the "Black Experience" (especially since I am not Black!). I see no where on Trinity's site that only Black people are welcome in their church. If the "Unashamedly Black" is interpreted as racist, then what of the "Unapologetically Christian"? Does that mean that they are anti-every-other-religion? Can they not have a church that promotes Christianity and is devoted to lifting up their black community without being racists? In grad school, one of my favorite courses was on the MMPI (Minnesota Multi-Phasic Personality Inventory). When interpreting the scores,  a clinician needs to know cultural differences that impact answers, lest an individual be misinterpreted as pathological. The scale that measures the level  of paranoia (ranging from ridiculously gullible to "normal" to distrustful to suspicious to out and out paranoid), African-Americans tend to score higher on this scale. It is not because they are pathological as a group. It is due to what they have historically and currently experienced.

More on last rant of mine~ my point is that what one sees in Trinity's site is not necessarily what one may believe it is. I am asking others to try to look beyond our experience. Research and learn about their experience.

Black Churches and Civic Traditions: Outreach,
Activism, and the Politics of Public Funding of
Faith-Based Ministries


http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:nPKISvy6eEgJ:www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/Charitable%2520Choice%2520book/Harris.pdf+tradition+black+church&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Now I'M obviously not getting my point across, so I my debate is over.  This could go on and on.....

fantastic letter DiH.....I wll be anzious to hear If you gt a response and if so what the response is... the facts are there in black and white....something his church doesn't embrace...at least not the white part of it

I believed your point to be that Obama's church is concerned only with the promotion of blacks? And perhaps to the extent that people who are not of color are not welcome? Please let me know, Dihannah.

Justins,
Let me try and explain what I think most people are seeing with the Church's agenda... it clearly states that they wish to "advance the black race".... ok, or at least it's what I see.

I have no issue with people of any race, but I will tell you that I have been the victim of racism, recently in fact.  I do not believe in any form of racism be it Jewish, black, latin etc.

Let me just let you know this... I have lived with (in the same household) with people of all backgrounds, black, Jewish, and Latin.  I have friends in biracial marriages with gorgeous biracial Godchildren ...

I will say that none of my friends condone any form of racism.

As for the Church, let me just copy what our Church states about embracing newcomers....

XXXXXXXX is a place of grace and hope. Each week we welcome scores of hurting people who are looking for a fresh start in their walk with God. It is a place where questions are taken seriously and people are respected regardless of where they are in their spiritual journey.

See, no mention of race - and there are all ethinicities that belong to this Church. (I took out the name to protect my privacy - sorry but this is an open forum) So when I hear unashamedly black, in my opinion is akin to stating that there is a reason one should apologize for being black...... which is not the case since we are ALL GOD's children anyway.

Thanks Mrs Red for helping me out on explanation.  The only other thing I can add is to take the same thing from Trinity and replace the word 'black' with 'white'. Could you imagine how much outrage that would that would raise if President Bush attended that church?
Let's also replace 'Africa" with "any other country".  Our country is a melting pot with immigrants from all over the world and accept them all with open arms, as long as they come in legally.  We are ALL immigrants from somewhere!  The president needs to bring all people together in unity, and I don't see that by associating with a racial church.  NO christian, loving church should use any 'race' one race church.  Mine is similar to Mrs. Red and we have a very large ethnic congregation and help ALL in need in our community, of any race!

I don't know how much more I or Mrs. Red can say to make our point.

Note:  I am still waiting for a response for my letter.......

Gotcha on those things, ladies. My stance is that blacks have endured much and many of their communities have developed "help our own" policies. Point being that this may be what Trinity is all about or not. Our letters asking for clarification will hopefully bring answers.

Dang, I really wish I had not blown the margins on page six.....













Sigh.

Found some great shoes at an outlet in europe,in the Parrish where I was married.obama ruined himself today,in the press.Forget about him.Cat

In what manner, Cat? I'm clueless on this.

Gotcha, Cat, I googled Obama for recent news and read about it.

When Dubbya ran for prez, I was frightened of what he may do. My fears were not only confirmed, they went beyond what I had even imagined at that time. Yet he has been the answer to many. Obama appears to frighten people. I believe that those who have much to lose financially will do their best to promote irrational fear over Obama. I do hope that they do not succeed. With that, I am leaving the political forum. I see littler debate that is productive here. I shall see all of my good monkey friends (yes, even the Republican ones  :wink: ) on the other forums. Much love.

Justins,

Please do not leave the Political Forum. If you do, it will be only me against all these Republicans. But I am not afraid of them.

"


OH please!  There is only one Republican left... that would be me... the others are not going to endure attacks and questions when no one will respond with anything that has to do with research or the level of seriousness that others put into this .....  and quite frankly LV, when you make comments like the bolded above it's quite annoying.  There isn't anything to "be afraid" of....

I love a good honest debate... and don't ever need to take it personally but comments like that one are getting old on both sides...

either stay and debate and take the emotions out, or don't.... I certainly don't want to lose valuable monkey friends over this thread... but I am not going to continue to even validate that kind of comment.  

Somewhere in one of these threads I have asked a lot of questions about why he is so qualified (obama) - so someone tell me... I have said why I support Gullani and asked several questions...

tell me what you think of what the Australian Prime Minster said this weekend?  How about the DNC having an IMAM opening their winter meeting....

tell me about these things...

Dear Mrs. Red,

I don't know what you mean by "There is only one Republican left... that would be me."

Mrs. Red, I apologize for annoying you.

Louise,

All I truly ask is that you answer why you like him... what you think about his new comments,  the IMAM opening the DNC winter meeting... all of these things....

I get annoyed with stuff like the "being afraid" comment... I am just asking questions about why you think what you think... if Obama is so wonderful, then show me why and maybe I would reconsider how I feel... but with other country's prime ministers making comments about his candiacy - doesn't that worry you?

Louise, why would you be afraid ever of Mrs Red? Now that offends me, or did you mean Dihannah also? Neither are rude or unfair or uneducated regarding important issues.


I hope Justins doesn't leave !

Thank you for your kind response, Nonsuche.