Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

http://scaredmonkeys.com/category/natalee-holloway/

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/8225571/__Mogelijke_kaak_van_Holloway__.html?view=print

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/Telegraph1.jpg)

DON'T MISS THE DANA PRETZER SHOW TONIGHT!

Guests

1. Former DA, author and law professor Wendy Murphy

"how-to" book for child predators is NOT protected "speech"  http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/11/12/wendy-murphy-amazon-pedophile-guide-love-pleasure-rights-supreme-court/

Also her thoughts on the Zahra Baker case. 9pm et

2. Blink from Blink On crime www.blinkoncrime.com  Discussing breaking news in the George/Ocasio cases  9:25pm et

3. Jossy Mansur - Diario - regarding the jawbone recently found on the beach in Aruba. 

 

Just an FYI, I was reading the new TV Guide and found this:

Sunday 11/28 at 10pm MSNBC:  MSNBC Undercover: Inside the Mind of Joran van der Sloot

Thanks Klaas, should be a very interesting show.

Hi Monkeys,
  Every tidbit of hope makes me run right here. I just wish I could get more excited about this news but............The let downs have just been too many..Always praying..Hugs

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40210187/ns/world_news-americas/

Cops test jawbone for Natalee Holloway link
Report: Forensic experts will examine molar after tourists find remains on Aruba beach

Police are investigating whether a jawbone found on Aruba is linked to the disappearance of U.S. teenager Natalee Holloway, a Dutch newspaper reported Tuesday.

According to De Telegraaf, forensic experts in the Netherlands will carry out tests on the remains.

The bone was found Friday on a beach near the Caribbean resort island's Phoenix Hotel, close to the Bubali swamp, the paper said.

Joran Van der Sloot, who was the last person seen with Holloway before the girl vanished during a high school graduation trip to Aruba in 2005, has previously claimed that he dumped her body in the swamp.

Van der Sloot has publicly said he killed the teen and then retracted his confession several times.
Video: Joran van der Sloot Behind Bars (on this page)

Peruvian authorities are holding Van der Sloot on charges that he killed another woman, Stephany Flores, in his hotel room in Lima, Peru, on May 30 — five years to the day after Holloway's disappearance.

If convicted on murder and robbery charges in Peru, Van der Sloot is likely to be sentenced to between 15 and 35 years in prison, court spokesman Luis Gallardo told The Associated Press in June.

A federal grand jury in Alabama has also indicted Van der Sloot on charges of wire fraud and extortion in relation to the Holloway case.

De Telegraaf said that tourists spotted the bone in the sand on Riba Beach. Police were notified after they handed it in at their hotel's front desk.

De Telegraaf said one molar was intact on the jawbone. Investigators will compare the tooth with Holloway's dental records.

Other bones which police on the island have examined for links to the Holloway case have turned out to be from animals.

Ven der Sloot was arrested twice in connection to Holloway's disappearance, but released both times for a lack of evidence.

Hey everyone!
The picture on the front page, is that an actual picture of the jawbone? If so looking at the teeth they don't look very straight along the bottom row.... is it prudent to examine that aspect? If yall have already talked about that, sorry I just jumped in.

NO

That is a stock photo of a jawbone found in Africa, I have no idea why they used a stock photo.

Hey monkeys I know this is off topic but I was just wondering where I could find the videos of the entertainment tonight stories that recently aired. 

I'm hopeful about the jaw bone being connected to Natalee but I know how my excitement can get shot down from previous things coming out of Aruba.

Hi antunym, Robyn621, tbivens   ::bananadance:: ::bananadance:: ::bananadance::

Sorry I missed you, Spooky.   ::bee::

Hi Lifesong and 3doglady  ::teddybear:: 

Okay...Now I see Mere.   ::HelloKitty::  Looks like lots of monkeys are checking in, hoping for some news.   ::rhino::

Hello there MuffyBee

I'm always here... maybe in the rafters but I'm always here hoping and praying.

I get so excited when I see a lot of monkeys here because I know something has developed. ::MonkeyDance::

I know what you mean, antunym.  There's always hope.   ::MonkeyAngel:: 

Hi 7227  ::HelloKitty::  I saw you pop in here.   ::MonkeyHaHa::

Can you imagine being a tourist and having a great vacation and then you are suddenly thrust into this case?
wow.
Anyway, if it is Natalie I wonder if the tide and current can be traced to find the rest of her.

Texasmom - when you get a minute, could you re-post this article from the last thread?


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8719.msg1262265#msg1262265


http://www.24ora.com/local-mainmenu-5/24315-agente-di-polis-deteni-pa-fula-un-dama-.html


I'm wondering if G. Geerman might not be Gerardo Geerman, of Shiribana 6 wasn't it?

 ::MonkeyEek::

Hi Muffy!

Good to see you!

 :2waver:

Break In Natalee Holloway Case? Jaw Bone Found On Beach

Authorities are testing a jaw bone found on a beach in Aruba, RadarOnline.com has learned, to see if any DNA or dental records match up with that of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, who vanished on the Caribbean island five years ago.

The bone was found Friday by tourists, who took it to the front desk of the nearby Phoenix Hotel, who subsequently forwarded it to authorities, according to Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf.

Netherlands National Forensic Institute spokeswoman Inge Oevering told CNN, "The prosecutor's office of Aruba sent us some bone material," adding the testing process traditionally takes a week to complete.

It’s still unknown if the jaw bone belonged to an animal or human being, CNN reported. If there is any match, the bone would be the first shred of evidence in connection with Holloway’s disappearance.


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2010/11/break-natalie-holloway-case-jaw-bone-found-beach

Well you missed me too but Hi Muffy!!! It's always good to see you!!Hugs

DANA sent me the prerecorded interview with Jossy!   ::MonkeyCheer4:: ::MonkeySlide:: ::MonkeyCheer4::

http://www.youtube.com/v/qKzPYyUEJMo?fs=1&hl=en_US&color1=0x2b405b&color2=0x6b8ab6

Hi Taterkins  ::HelloKitty::  It's always good to see you too!

And a big monkey wave to  Northern Rose, mom2eloise, tbivens, MalteseMom, Lisa in MD  ::MonkeySlide::

And of course, Klaasend who's always here  ::MonkeyDance::

Peter R. Ferris does not believe in Holloway jaw

AMSTERDAM - Crime reporter Peter R. Ferris expects that the remains that are found on the beach in Aruba, Natalee Holloway are not.

On his website he writes: "There has often been claimed that some of Natalee Holloway was found, such as clothing or a piece of bone. Each gave her mother Beth hopes, but ended up again and again nothing. Also this time I consider the chance that a tiny remnant of Natalee. It would then be washed, in the sea and I can not imagine that after five years something of it. "

The conscious part jaw was on the beach at the lake Bubali found. This is one of the places that Joran van der Sloot pointed out, as the location where he body of American teenager would have hidden.

The Dutch Forensic Institute (NFI) investigates on behalf of the public prosecutor in Aruba, the jaw portion. (EBO)

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1000/Nieuws/article/detail/535311/2010/11/16/Peter-R-de-Vries-gelooft-niet-in-Holloway-kaak.dhtml

Listen to the interview with Jossy  ::MonkeyCool::

"human....young white person...."

Max Devries??

Thanks Klaas!  ::MonkeyCool::

Or Natalee

Max was 14 and Natalee 17, their skeletal size was probably not too different in size.

Maybe there is one good cop in Aruba that took the evidence and tossed it in a wave - to be found! maybe.............

This is true.

One can hope

viet vet wrote:

Speaking of off the record comments, we were told were to find Joran at the International School on a Friday , June 2 or 3, have it in my notes. Was also told Joran hit Natalee with an aluminum baseball bat…in the head. The same man told me both stories and guess what, Joran was at the International School that day, hiding. He was sleeping over there rather than home,,, scared he was. The fine Aruba Police followed us to the school that day or maybe we would already have solved this case. Yeah Karin, a bounch of cowboys…

Thanks Nut - you know more about this than I do but I'd bet Max was almost as big as Natalee if not bigger.  He may have looked younger.  Personally, I stopped growing at age 12.  ::MonkeyCool::

thanks to Dana and Klaas.....how are they gonna turn a human jaw bone into a donkey jaw bone???

Prosecutor's office send some bone material-----What did they do, pull all the teeth from the jawbone before they sent it off?  My thought is if this is from Natalee then it is from the cage.  JMO  I DO NOT TRUST THEM AT ALL.

http://www.24ora.com/local-mainmenu-5/24315-agente-di-polis-deteni-pa-fula-un-dama-.html

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/Misc%20News%2025%20112010/11152010_24ora_Geerman.jpg)

Papiamentu translation:

agent by police deteni before feel one lady

monday, 15 november 2010 22:27

monday morning 9or the agent by police g. geerman owing to remain deteni at keep by police old at santa cruz, at office by bizo (departamento cu is investiga kehonan contra polis). the young police have barely some moon on caya because aspirante but already is sospechoso by one caso in cual the will owing to feel one muhe in pova. the is one caso very delicado cu will did take luga at moon by october come to anend, then precisamente in club by police, esta pova situa at barcadera. look like cu the agent policial will owing to touch cu the lady at one part by her curpa inapropia by cual the lady owing to feel cu owing to atacha the integridad by her curpa. the caso is become more earnest, because the victima will owing to drag atencion by the defensor by ley before her acto, y here the police owing to mustr’e cu the is ful’e once more. the lady corectamente owing to entrega one complaint oficial at police cu owing to wordo investiga by by bizo, under supervision by ministerio publico. today morning owing to haci one cita before 9or cu the police y so cu past owing to march come into office by bizo, owing to detene for her investigacion here. after fiscal owing to dicidi by allow cer’e in gaol, pendiente the investigacion in her contra. the police is wordo sospecha by will owing to comete the delito in ley, conoci because articulo 252. before facilita we usuarionan, we owing to re produci the articulo at dutch self, manner the is aparece in we codigo penal, before facilidad by we usuarionan.

artikel 252

Google Dutch translation:

He who by force or other act or threat of violence or other act someone forces us to commit or tolerate indecent acts, shall be guilty of actual indecent assault punishable by imprisonment not exceeding eight years or a fine not exceeding one hundred thousand florin.

I was thinking that too Blue Moon and was wanting to ask Kermit about the location of this bone and where the trap was located.Could it have washed up from that location?I still think she was in that trap and just cant seem to let it go.Would it take five years to go that distance from the trap to the beach?I just dont know...

TM - I saw an article in awe24 or 24hora that mention Shiribana.  Let me look. 

This is what I was remembering - the hit and run:

http://www.24ora.com/policial-mainmenu-8/24243-lexus-a-hit-and-run-motociclista-na-shiribana-.html#comments

Lexus a hit and run motociclista na Shiribana.    Print    E-mail
Sunday, 14 November 2010 03:24
DSC_1425
Diadomingo marduga algo pasa di 1or polis a haya melding di un accidente di brommer na Shiribana. E informacion tabata bisa cu tin hende herida. Mesora e polisnan di Noord a bai na e lugar. Ora cu nan a yega a topa cu e motociclista herida cu cap na cabez y sla na elleboog. No a haya auto cu lo a dale na e sitio. Segun testigonan un Alteza blanco a dal e brommer pone bai sigui dal den borchi di entrada di Subway Paradera. Ambulance cu a presenta a bai cune hospital.

Klaas, Thanks for posting the video of Jossy! 

And Thanks to Dana, and of course Jossy too, can't wait to listen to the show tonight! 
 

::MonkeyDance::

Thanks Klaas, yes I saw this article too.

I had the same thought as Lifesong about the policeman that was arrested.  I can't understand a lot of the article...I may try some different translators but from what I can understand... apparently the G. Geerman that was arrested is either a young man that is new to the police force, or just new to the police force. I don't recall if we ever had an approximate age of the Gerardo Geerman or not.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/Pretzer111610.jpg)

Does anyone have a map of the Phoenix Hotel and where Joran was making out with her by the lighthouse?

Posted at RU

AlwaysL8 wrote:
Jean Cesaras (sp?) just said on JVM that CNN is reporting that per Aruba, the jawbone looks human and that of a young female, has one molar intact. The Netherlands could take up to a week for testing but it is up to the Aruban prosecutor whether to release any information.

We may be in for a very long wait for answers about this jawbone Sad if ever.

Wouldn't that be something ::MonkeyCheer4::  Now is the perfect time to give Natalee back....they can act like heroes ::MonkeyMad::

I fear you are correct....damn it just makes my blood boil

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/ArubaMap.gif)

Hi Red! ::MonkeyJnBox::

Bombshell!   ::MonkeyJnBox::

Jossy on Nancy Grace now!

They're saying on NG the discovery belongs to a young, white female.

AND...may know the results as soon as tomorrow.

WOW fast

Just curious -- what was the "name" of the tropical storm that recently hit Aruba??

Per Jossy, this is big news in Aruba.  Everything points to it possibly being Natalee.

Lower jaw bone of a young caucasion female.

Found on Friday, flown to the NFI on Sunday.

As soon as tomorrow we may know the results!   ::MonkeyCool::

Expert (Dr. Oliver) says DNA should still be intact, it's protected by the enamel of the tooth, the DNA will be found in the pulp.

Wasn't it Tomas?

Yeah Tomas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Tomas_%282010%29

It is hard to get too hopeful -- but, I'm guardedly optimistic! Thank-you, Tomas!!

Kermit, wreck, klaasend, pink angel, Judge Mental, cecilita, jjayinthemorning, San, Magnolia, anothermonkey, Tater, MAca, MuffyBee, NCMike, mz_maven and 24 Guests are viewing this topic.

And me!   ::MonkeyGavel::

FOR THOSE THAT MISSED IT....

The jawbone pictured in the newspaper in Aruba IS NOT the actual jawbone.  The one pictured in 24ora is a stock photo of a jawbone found in Africa.

According to Jossy - the jawbone is of a small white female and they will test to see if Natalee. 

So the hurricane season kicked up the waters around Aruba this year and a jawbone of a young white person was found on the same side of the island where Natalie disappeared. Hmmmm.
And if the currents run from the lighthouse then Joran put her in the water there.
Is this anywhere near the crab trap?

Remember during 2005-2006 when items were found and sent to Holland to be tested how long we were told it would take? It was like months.

It is all in the same vicinity.  Same end and side of the island.

Yeah I'm hoping they already know the answer and want the answer known this time  ::MonkeyCool::

I think you're reading my mind!   ::MonkeyCool::

Renfro has been noticeably missing the last few days.   (http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/JuliaWitch.gif)

Probably already answered but Tomas hit recently and I know when even a depression is way out in the gulf we have huge/very heavy pieces of driftwood wash ashore.......even a hardhat from one of the men on DWH washed ashore here in June or July.

 ::MonkeyMad:: Also, is it just me or is the person reading as Beth using some ridiculous accent?? I know it shouldn't matter, but give me a break, I couldn't believe it when I heard it~just read the damn transcript without any embelishment ::MonkeyNoNo::

Maybe I shouldn't ask -- but, do we think the find was actually due to the "storm" or "planted" to be finally "found"?

I am so afraid to hope too much.  They have been so underhanded on that island.

But still....I hope that Natalee is home for Christmas.

good question  ::MonkeyTongue:: but the storms here wash up all kinds of chit, it's like everyone rushes out right after the storms to see the condition of the beach, and what has washed up.....I did find 3 sets of what looked like brand new Costa's once.

I am hearing there is a molar, I wonder if they have her dental records and if (pls Lord) that molar has any fillings or anything identifiable....wouldn't that make a cursory ID easier?

Well you know...the best time to put something out there that you want found (but don't want to look like it may have been planted) would be right after a storm when lots of stuff has washed in!
 ::MonkeyWink::

 ::MonkeyCool::

She usually shows up to announce "it was a donkey bone" before any body else has the news.

I have always wondered why the Aruban police notify her first.

TUNE IN NOW TO THE DANA PRETZER SHOW.  IT WILL START IN A FEW MINUTES:

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/radio.m3u

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/Pretzer111610.jpg)

Well in that case they should have "LOTS" of stuff to plant on that island. 

Did I read an American tourist found the jawbone?  Only reason they moved on this if that is the case.

The Kalpoes left the scene.
Papa van der Sloot arranged for the boat DJ to take her out to sea.
Joran said she went swimming.
In that order it makes sense.

What would be good about this find, if it is Natalie, is that it's the first indication that the girl is really dead and she could be put to rest.
We all know it, but proving how she died is going to be difficult without more than a jawbone.

It's DanaTime!    ::monkeywine2::

Dr. Baden said that it is possible, even after 5 years, to find out if someone had taken drugs by testing the root canal tissue which would be mostly intact since there is at least one tooth.  Possible.

Aruba took the rest of her from the trap in January of 2009. IMO Who knows what they did with the remains
that they found?

The lower jaw could have fallen away and through the trap (if this indeed what Natalee in this trap):

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub3/Trap.jpg)

Well, you know what I think!  ::MonkeyCool::

It was Jan 2008 and iirc from the pictures of the human remains in that trap, it appeared that the lower jaw bone was missing.  But maybe it was nearby and recovered also?  Can't help but wonder!  

You're certainly not alone.   ::CowboySmiley::

I should have said January, 2008.  The years run together after a while.

Thanks for posting the pic Klaas!   ::MonkeyCool::

It doesn't seem that long ago, does it... ::MonkeyNoNo::

No, it doesn't.  I try to keep it straight by the last arrest of Joran the the Kalpoes in November, 2007.
A lot happened right around that time.

Jossy's interview coming up...if you haven't already listened!

Hello monkeys! Afraid to jump on board, though the forensic anthropologist on Nancy Grace was encouraging with her summation of how they know the jawbone belongs to a young, white female. Will see what tomorrow brings.

Can you imagine being on vacation in Aruba, walking along the beach and finding human bones?   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Well, if you are a "tourist" on vacation in Aruba -- you should expect it -- not be surprised. The whole world knows about Natalee and Aruba. It's your own fault.

No kidding, so much for searching for sea shells ... in Aruba its searching the beaches for body parts.

Blink's gut feeling is this is Natalee. 

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

Consider there is a tooth attached to this jaw bone ... could dental records not identify whether there is a connection to Natalee Holloway?

Janet

Absolutely yes.  Also, according to Dr. Baden a slight chance that you could determine if she had a date rape drug in her system when she died from the root canal tissue.

I would have taken a photo (appropriate background) with time recorded ... carefully and respectfully wrapped the bone ... placed it in my suitcase and ... immediately contacted Beth Holloway upon my arrival home.  I would not have given it to those who have an agenda to prevent justice from prevailing for Natalee.

Janet

+++++++

FOX News w/ Martha MacCallum - November 28, 2006

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Well I think they will always have to look at there were two personnel involved from the Aruban Justice Department and that is why we don’t have any evidence and that’s what Joran’s attorney will have to be reminded of. It’s because of Bob Witt and Ben King stopped the search warrants. It was made to initially search the entire area of Montanja 19 the garden, the buildings and everything but on the spot high ranking employee of the Justice Office Bob Witt reduced the search warrant to only the room of Joran so that’s why we don’t have any evidence because of involvement of the obstruction from the Aruban Justice Department personnel.

Me too.

Janet

Nancy Grace is on again (HLN) if anybody missed it.

Janet
7:10 PM PT

This may have already been posted...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20101116/tr_ac/7207332_beached_jawbone_found_in_aruba

Beached Jawbone Found in Aruba

(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20101116/capt.da50086029b943378cfc05e0cf6b2b85-da50086029b943378cfc05e0cf6b2b85-0.jpg)
AP – FILE - Beth Holloway, mother of Natalee Holloway, speaks during the opening of the Natalee Holloway Resource …

Lisa Patteson – Tue Nov 16, 6:12 pm ET

A forensics team from the Netherlands is waiting for permission from an Aruban prosecutor to conduct DNA testing on a bone fragment, according to ABC News/International. It is believed that the bone fragment could possibly belong to Natalee Holloway.

The Alabama teen went missing in Aruba in May of 2005 while on a high school graduation trip, never to be seen or heard from again. She is said to have spent her last hours with Joran van der Sloot, who was reportedly the last person to have seen Ms. Holloway alive. He was the main suspect in her disappearance, but the Aruban authorities were never able to gather enough evidence against him, so he was never charged in her disappearance.

The bone fragment has been received by the Netherlands Forensic Institute. Officials for the Dutch institute have stated that they are prepared to begin DNA testing on the bone as soon as approval is received. They will then compare and contrast the test results to the DNA profile of Holloway to determine if it is a match.

According to a Dutch newspaper named de Telegraaf, the bone was discovered on a beach in Aruba on Friday, Nov. 12, 2010 by tourists. The bone is believed to be a mandible, or the lower half of a human jawbone. The newspaper also states that there are photographs of the bone fragment, and that one of the photos depicts what appears to be an intact molar tooth. This could also lead to potential identification through the use of dental records.

On Nov. 16, the Netherlands Forensic Institute stated that it is not known at this time exactly how long the testing will take, and therefore would not project a timeframe for results. Officials from the Institute further stated that they would allow the Aruban authorities to publicize the findings once they are reached.

According to ABC News/International, John Q. Kelly, who is the attorney for Holloway's mother, Beth Twitty, stated that Twitty would not travel to the Netherlands to await the results of the testing. Kelly stated that they have been hopeful before when other bones have been discovered. Each time so far, though, they have been disappointed.

In Kelly's own words, "This could be the time. I don't want to say it's not, but there have been other bones found and gathered and tested. There have been photos of skeletons. There have been pictures of clothes and remains in lobster cages and sand dunes and everything else."

Joran van der Sloot is currently awaiting trial in Peru in the Castro Castro prison, which is reportedly one of the toughest prisons in the world. Twitty traveled to the prison to visit van der Sloot in an effort to glean more information about the disappearance of Natalee. This was after van der Sloot allegedly bilked her out of $10,000 by agreeing to help her find her daughter's body in Aruba, and then using the money to travel to Lima instead. It was at a casino in Peru where van der Sloot met Stephanie Flores, was later observed on hotel security videotape entering his room with Flores, then later leaving alone. Her body was discovered days later, and van der Sloot now faces charges in her murder.

Klaas is right. I also heard there is an intact molar in the disarticulated portion of the lower mandible.

If that is correct, it is POSSIBLE for a positive ID to made from it, as in dental xray comparison, there is the potential for a one-one match.  ( for comparison, it takes a 16 point match to positively confirm a fingerprint).

However, I am feeling that Aruba will mandate the results of a nuclear DNA test result before they would present the findings, unless the mandibular exam is exclusionary immediately.

Somehow, if that were true, I do not feel we would have ever learned of this discovery, fwiw.

Prayers and Hope for Natalee today.

Surely this is not going to be another "waiting for permission" thing!   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Snips from the article I just posted:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20101116/tr_ac/7207332_beached_jawbone_found_in_aruba



Please don't tell me the Aruban prosecutor is on vacation!   ::MonkeyNoNo::

I hope to God it's her, and I don't really give a damn how it got there. I do however, extremely doubt that this just washed up after 5 1/2 years.

Thanks TM.  Of course JQK is right but it just feels different this time.

I hope the remains are Natalee's too , and ITA with you in doubting it just washed up after 5 1/2 years.  If it's Natalee, then there are those that have decided it was time for them to be found.  JMHO

Hi Monkeys!!!
what about the monster's computer?

 ::MonkeyJnBox::

I agree.  Apparently ... the jaw bone has been identified as belonging to a small white female.  How many small white females have been reported missing on that Island.

Janet

If the remains are natalees...I think that she come back at the right time when the monster can't go anywhere ::MonkeyJnBox::

I agree!   ::MonkeyCool::

I am hopeful she is right.  I would like to see Natalee home at last. 

Hi cecilita,

I haven't read a word about the computer lately, or a final decision on the confession...have you?

ITA

Good to see you, AZ  ::HelloKitty::

I think I read that the prosecutor is in NL right now.

Hi Texasmom ::MonkeyJnBox::
I haven't heard anything about his laptop ::MonkeyMad:: it is taking so long ....i think that Peru sent the laptop to USA for analysis ::CowboySmiley::

Hi ..I am always here, just don't post often....always with you guys in our quest to resolving this for Natalee, and for Beth.

TM - are you having problems pulling up www.awe24.com ?  I haven't been able to access the site most of the day today.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20022910-504083.html

November 16, 2010 9:34 AM

Natalee Holloway Bone Found in Aruba?

Posted by Edecio Martinez Leave Comment

(http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/cbsnews/2010/02/23/image6234166x.jpg)

Natalee Holloway (AP)

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (CBS/WIAT/AP) Is a bone found on a beach in Aruba the key to solving the five-year mystery of what happened to Natalee Holloway?

PICTURES: Joran van der Sloot: Natalee Holloway and Peru

The Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf is reporting that what appears to be a human jawbone was found by tourists on the beach near the Phoenix Hotel.The site where the bone was found is near one of several locations mentioned by Joran van der Sloot in a series of interviews and "confessions" he later rescinded, reports CBS affiliate WIAT.

De Telegraaf says Aruban Chief Prosecutor Peter Blanken is in the Netherlands but had no comment on the case. Although the age of the bone has not been determined there are reportedly intact teeth on the bone.

Dutch forensic experts are testing the piece of bone to see if it comes from missing American teenager, a spokeswoman said Tuesday. Experts first will establish whether the bone is human before comparing its DNA to that of Holloway, said Netherlands Forensic Institute spokeswoman Inge Oevering.

Holloway, then 18, disappeared in 2005 while on a high school graduation trip to Aruba. Her remains have never been found, despite extensive police searches. If the bone turns out to be from Holloway, it would be the first concrete evidence of her death.

Oevering said prosecutors in Aruba will announce the results of the tests. She could not say how long the tests would take.

Dutchman Joran van der Sloot is the last person seen with Holloway and is considered the prime suspect in her disappearance. Van der Sloot is in jail in Lima, Peru charged with killing Stephany Flores, a woman murdered five years to the day after Holloway's disappearance.

Van der Sloot has told several people he was involved in Holloway's disappearance, only to later retract his confessions. He has also admitted in interviews that he is a pathological liar.

Among his explanations, van der Sloot has claimed that Holloway accidentally fell from a balcony and that he disposed of her body in a swamp. He also told an undercover reporter that she died unexpectedly while they were kissing and he dumped her body in the ocean.

Aruban prosecutors say they lack evidence to charge van der Sloot.

Yes, I'm having problems with it too.  Maybe they're down...I checked over on their twitter page and their last message was 11 hours ago.

Oh good, then it's not just me  ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyKiss::

How amazing is it that a jaw bone washes ashore and the Aruban LE does not tape off the area as a crime scene and look for other potential bones or remains? They are like, oh its a jaw, no biggy. Wait, there's a skull. No problem mon. UNREAL!

I'm a little late in answering but if it is her I think it was a plant.

Now Red you know that might upset the tourists that didn't know what was found there, they wouldn't want to risk that! 

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

Or maybe they know where the rest of the remains are already!

Finally! I feel that it's Natalee and she'll be home soon. It was a plant!!!  Just bring her home.
Missed all of you but I've been in the rafters late at night.  Hope to here news tomorrow.    ::MonkeyGavel::

Hey SMs, been a long time since I've logged on and posted here (actually since I searched for Caylee) but I wanted to get this info on here, since I don't post on any other crime forum.  My husband just had his 2 week mid deployment break from military duty in Afghanistan, and his desire was to spend a week of that in Aruba, searching for clues in Natalee's disappearance.  The 2 of us have done SAR for many years.  The area where this jawbone was found on Friday, we were at the very same spot the day before.  (I have 3 pics if I could figure out how to upload them here).  Here's the interesting part.  During the majority of last week, the west side of Aruba (where the Divi Phoenix is located), has had huge waves wash ashore from a combination of the leftovers from hurricane Tomas, coupled with a storm front that moved in from the south and west off of Venezuela.  The locals we spoke with that had businesses in this area had even told us that their beachside huts and palm umbrellas had been washed away earlier in the week.  about 3 yards south and to the west of this hotel is the march of the Bubuli Bird Sanctuary, and there is a drainage link that goes between the marsh of the sanctuary, under Irausquin Blvd. and drains out into the ocean.  Where it drains into the ocean, there is a huge pile of conch shells, some the size of your head.  When it rains heavy, the march drains into the ocean.  In the opposite, when the tides are high, they push into the drain area which flows back into the sanctuary marsh.  So if Natalee was placed in the march, she could have washed out to sea.  When Tomas and the Venezuela system moved in, the combination of the two could have washed her back to shore.  OR, due to the two storm systems hitting at the same time, if she had been put directly in the ocean, the combination of the two storm systems could have dislodged her, and washed her in.  In one of Joran's confessions, he stated that he had placed her in the Bubali Marsh.  Also, we found know that Joran's house in Aruba is in the Montana (spanish emphasis on the "n"), and this is directly inland by about a mile, mile and a half from where the Divi Phoenix and the location where the jawbone was found.  An easy walk for someone like Joran.  An even easier car ride for his dad to come pick him up.  If in fact this turns out to be Natalee's jaw bone, I hope the local authorities will finally get off their duffs, excavate that area where the conch shells are, and do a radial search of the ocean in this area.  If anyone can tell me how to upload the photos, I'll put them up here.

I've missed you too Cajun!  Glad you're here!   ::MonkeyCool::

apologies for all my spelling errors - been a long day

I was on there earlier.  Isn't it 24ora.com ?

Very interesting!!! Thanks!

pillow talk with the local madam perhaps?

When you post, you will see ADDITIONAL OPTIONS on the bottom left.  If you click on ADDITIONAL OPTIONS, you will see where you can upload the photo from your PC.

I'd love to see the pics.

No, 2 different sites.  24ora.com is the site where the jawbone was first reported and they have the stock photo of a jawbone that was actually found in Africa.

awe24.com is a different Aruban site and it's been down most of the day today.

Free and Clear?
Wednesday, August 24, 2005

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So your client, 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock, is on the Internet at home. I've been in his room. I've seen the computer, or at least where it was. And he gets phone calls at 2:40 and 3 a.m. from Joran. Where do the cell records place the phone that Joran is using at 2:40 and 3 o'clock in the morning?

DAVID KOCK, SATISH KALPOE'S ATTORNEY:: Well, there's not an exact pinpoint indication, but the general area is the area here in north in Palm Beach of the hotel.

VAN SUSTEREN: So it looks like he's not home at that hour, but someplace near the Marriott, is that right?

KOCK: That is correct. He is in this neighborhood.

 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166635,00.html

UPDATE: Is there finally a clue to Natalee's fate?
Last Update: 9:05 pm  

UPDATE:    Peter Blanken, an Aruban prosecutor said a forensic expert examined the bone found near an Aruban hotel and determined it was from a young woman. 

However, Blanken did day that the final determination would be made my the forensic institute in the Netherlands.
 

Birmingham, Al (WIAT) Is a bone found on a beach in Aruba the key to solving the five year mystery of what happened to Natalee Holloway?

The Dutch newspaper DE TELEGRAAF is reporting that an apparently human jawbone was found by tourists on the beach near the Phoenix Hotel.

Forensic scientists in The Netherlands are investigating possible connections to the disappearance of Mountain Brook teen Natalee Holloway on a high school graduation trip in 2005. The site where the bone was found is near one of several locations mentioned by Joran van der Sloot in a series of interviews and "confessions" he later rescinded.

DE TELEGRAAF says Aruban Chief Prosecutor Peter Blanken is in the Netherlands but had no comment on the case.  Although the age of the bone has not been determined there are apparently intact teeth which would make a DNA check against Natalee Holloway's dental records possible.

According to CNN, "The prosecutor's office of Aruba sent us some bone material," said Inge Oevering, spokeswoman for the National Forensic Institute in the Hague, Netherlands.

She said the material will be analyzed to determine whether it is animal or human. If it is human, authorities will attempt to create a DNA profile, she said. The process will depend on the condition of the material, Oevering said, but the process normally takes about a week.

The forensic institute's findings will be sent back to the prosecutor's office, who will decide whether to make the results public, she said. Oevering would not provide a description of the material.

On at least two occasions other bones believed to be clues in the case were determined to be not human.  There was also a flurry of speculation last year when tourist divers thought they discovered a body but it was only a coral formation.

Holloway was last seen leaving a restaurant in Oranjestad with van der Sloot. Although he was questioned several times, Arubuan police never charged him in the case. He’s still considered the prime suspect in her disappearance.

Van der Sloot is in prison in Peru facing charges he murdered 21 year old Stephany Flores. Flores body was found in van der Sloot’s Lima hotel room five years after Holloway’s disappearance. Van der Sloot confessed he killed Flores after she found material relating to Natalee on his laptop. He’s currently appealing to have that confession thrown out claiming coercion and procedural mistakes by Peruvian investigators.

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/story/UPDATE-Is-there-finally-a-clue-to-Natalees-fate/3qPqkOKkW0WHGa74m97nPw.cspx

I'll bet that's it None. ::MonkeyCool::

I'd like to hear a description of the jaw bone, location found, etc. directly from the tourists that found it, if thats what really happened.  As no one comes forward I start to wonder...

Also, how does it happen that supposedly two Aruban officials accompany the bone to Holland, where they can't do the tests yet because they don't have permission?  WTH is that about?  Who sent the bone and the two officials to the lab in Holland if not the OM/Prosecutor?

These people... I just don't trust any of them.   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Thanks FloridaKatz!  Interesting!

If Natalee was put in Bubali Plas at all, I don't think they left her there.  I think they may have worried that she would be found when they figured out rather quickly that her parents meant business, and moved her where she wouldn't be found...and wouldn't float back to shore.

More than likely wrapped in a tarp, and placed in a crab trap 1-2 miles out in about 90 feet of water.

JMO

I have been wondering the same things.  I don't trust them either.

oh ok thanks !

ok here goes - trying to upload pics....

I totally understand what you mean, Lifesong.  I've been wondering about the tourists who reportedly found this on the beach.  One report said they picked it up and brought it to the police department.   ::MonkeyNoNo::   Can't wrap my mind around it, so I've been quiet, for the time being. 

When you post, you will see ADDITIONAL OPTIONS on the bottom left.  If you click on ADDITIONAL OPTIONS, you will see where you can upload the photo from your PC.

I'd love to see the pics.
[/quote]

The pics that were on NG this evening, from where I took this pic, if you look down to the water and then to the right about 4 yards, you see where the concrete slabs are breaking and falling into the water (I presume used to be some sort of sidewalk or a concrete slab where a beachside business/shack used to be, before the storms last week broke them apart.

Thanks for posting the pics FloridaKatz!   ::MonkeyCool::

I'm finding it a bit suspicious, now that I read others posts, in this area, with all the shells washing up, how does one just happen to come across a jawbone.  I stood there in that pile of conch shells for a good 45 minutes (yes, trying to figure out if I could get one past immigration to take it home), and there's no way I would have/could have spotted a jaw bone amongst all the shells.  Unless it washed up just to the north of all these, but those big concrete slabs were just to the north of these, so I find it unlikely, unless high tide was really high Thursday night.  It was Thursday during the day when I took these pics.

I 2nd that, FloridaKatz.  It looks just like after a storm on the Jersey shore.  Loads of shells, etc. 

I was thinking the same thing............ it looked like ALL bones amongst the conch shells in those pics!

Thanks for the pics.

I was reading on one of the travel boards.  Someone was due to arrive at the Divi Phoenix.  They were wondering if the beach was roped off/closed for searching as a crime scene.   They obviously don't know Aruban protocol.....unless the exact location of where that bone originated...how could they possibly search and disturb nature?...   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Hi Texasmom,  That is close to what Sonar Captain Gene Ralston thought too.  He sent me a mail saying he believed she was put in a weighted trap and dropped out by a coral reef where the crabs breed. 

Thanks to everyone for the great posts.  I could hardly wait to get here and see what y'all had to say.  Let it be Natalee.  I think her Mom is near a breaking point after all these years with everything that has happened.  xox

I doubt it.  The only thing I saw the local cops doing was sitting around on ATVs, checking out the pretty young girls as they walked by during the day, and on Friday night, they would just sit there and watch the young crowd drive their sooped up vehicles up and down Irausquin, going way too fast, and with the music thumping way too loud.  And well, they just turn their heads the other way if they see something untoward in downtown Oranjestad.  The locals call it "One Happy Island".  I call it "One Dirty Island".  Both in looks and the legal system   ::MonkeyShocked::

Thanks for the great pictures. It sure looks like tons of shells and bones.

FloridaKatz - I uploaded your photos to photobucket and resized them so they are easier to see in the forum

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/IMG_0903.jpg)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/IMG_0902.jpg)

NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

Great to see you Scandi!   ::MonkeyCool::

I hope it's her too, however it happened...and I hope they'll send all they have of her back to her family for a proper burial.  It's never too late to do the right thing.

Yes, looking at your pictures I was thinking the same. 

Bottom Line

NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION:  ... they`ve got blood on their hands in Aruba because another young lady died because they failed to take the actions that were necessary.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

 

Cool., thanks Klaas !  Me not so "techy" !!!

FloridaKatz

Thank you for the photos.

While I believe that the jaw bone may belong to Natalee Holloway ... unless this "tourist" comes forward ... I am also suspicious of this "find".

The shells and immigration?  A number of years ago our family with with MIL and FIL went to Hawaii.  Anticipating beautiful bracelets and necklaces ... my MIL filled a large jar with Puka (?) shells picked from an isolated beach.  There was no problem bring the jar of shells through immigration when we returned to Canada.

Good Night.

Janet

I'll save you the time, it looks something like this:

         (http://nastyhorror.com/Images/CreepyComicNews2.jpg)

Thanks, Dana, thanks, Klaas!

 ::MonkeyCheer4:: ::MonkeyCheer4::

After all these years I do not trust officials in the NL any more than I trust those in Aruba.

If this jawbone is indeed from Natalee then I would agree that it has been planted.  We just have to wait and see where and when someone else just happens to trip over the rest of the skeleton.

I feel for Beth with all these discoveries.  I know she is a strong woman but how much more can she cope with?

OT waving to Tylergal    ::HelloKitty::

JMO, but I wish that news pundants would stop discussing the possibility that any investigative evidence could be determined from the jaw until an announcement is made as to whether it's Natalee's or not. I honestly believe that if Aruba has decided to allow any remains to come to light, they could "rethink" it if there's a chance it could go beyond their attempt to shut Beth up and make the case finally go away.

I so wish that the jaw could have been taken to our FBI for testing. I'm hoping that the DNA results come down today. The sooner, the better.

If it's Natalee, and if that's confirmed, then Beth can pat herself on the back. I believe that the only way this jaw comes to light right now is because Beth showed up at Joran's prison, and showed back up in Aruba. I believe her promise to Joran to be there, looking for her daughter the rest of her life and her promise to return to Aruba may have convinced Aruba to re-examine their strategy in light of Beth. If they weighed their losses at this point versus what was left to protect, the scales have tipped. Paulus is dead and the entire world knows now that Joran is a killer. The jaw on the beach doesn't commit to any particular theory or explanation of what happened. The find doesn't highlight the cover-up, so why not let Beth have some remains and hope it takes the wind out of her sails.

They just want it to end. Who would have thought this slight woman from Alabama was made of steel? Who would have guessed that she could prove herself to be capable of rising from obscurity to pop unexpectedly into headlines 5 years after their dirty deeds. They misjudged her. When she quietly utters she will always be at their back looking for Natalee, they now cringe instead of laugh. Now, they believe. Now, they fear. Now, Natalee may come home.

Great post, CBB.  There is nothing as powerful as a mother's love.

Gosh, we go to the beach all the time in Galveston.  We never find anything but shark's teeth and shells.  There sure are alot of bones washing up on Aruba.  It's about time they find out whose bones those are.  I am sure Max Devrie's family wants to know also.  Spare yourself Aruba.  Are the Vandersweats really worth it?!

...............and as my 400th post, "everything comes out in the wash."  In my heart and soul, I know the truth will come out.  We just have to wait through the "spin cycle."  Hugs to all you Monkeys.  I need to get ready for my grandbabies but will check back in tonight.  Pray monkeys, pray.

Sorry I must have missed some of this were you in Aruba aand you took these pictures?

http://www.24ora.com/local-mainmenu-5/24336-instituto-forensico-nfi-na-den-haag-a-ricibi-e-kaak-cu-a-wordo-haya-na-aruba-algun-dia-atras.html

Papiamentu translation:

institute forensico nfi at in haag owing to ricibi the kaak cu owing to wordo attain at aruba some day behind

tuesday, 16 november 2010 11:57

manner 24ora.com owing to informa some day behind owing to being attain one kaak at beach near by phoenix hotel. this owing to wordo send before the netherlands. here is deal by the instituo forensico nfi. the relacionista publico owing to give by conoce cu they're purbando at previous to lugar before identifica if the bone is human. at instant cu establece cu siguridad cu is uno human will bay try before establece one profil dna. all they resultadonan will wordo send before ministerio publico by aruba. at her file ministerio publico by aruba will dicidi that informacionan they're saca before publico.

comentarionan (3) mustra/kita comentarionan come across...

scirbi before bonbini, november 16, 2010
i am comprende,cu will not informa folk corecto.sininbargo will i am believe cu do not one advantage before folk.e type by accionan here,ministerio publico will hanja one reaccion.no positive. folk own derecho by the berdad. if thou hold one destancia for of you folk do not good. +1 come across...

scirbi before iron hand, november 16, 2010
i am casi sugur cu do not human, the not have the cachete (chin), bone human have cachete esun attain is flat part fast +1 come across...

scirbi before mena, november 16, 2010
not only nataly is perdi (missing) at aruba. have quite child by terra cu owing to depart cas (home) without go back ever more. i am compronde the motibo cu quite be willing to before is by nataly. but not forget we self one hendenan. come across

http://www.diario.aw/2010/11/kaak-a-yega-hulanda-y-ta-na-den-haag-pa-ser-investiga/

Papiamentu translation:

kaak owing to arrive the netherlands y is at in haag before being investiga

publication: diaranson, 17 november 2010.

categoria: general the week here self can attain first resultadonan

oranjestad(aan): the investigacion on the mandibula cu diente attain at aruba not owing to termina. can say cu barely past owing to cuminsa. was two mericano procedente by massachusetts, kendenan is esnan cu owing to attain the kaak. diabierna esey owing to sosode y they owing to hibe at front desk by divi phoenix before beat alarma. cu very atencion autoridad local owing to cuminsa investiga the kaak here. in one corto time command policial owing to dicidi by send two acolyte by cuerpo tecnico before the netherlands cu the kaak.

they owing to arrive y entrega this. we not know if they will arrive cu one contesta before aruba. is important if before hear this for by autoridadnan more high. for by merca already come to anend daily paper owing to cuminsa attain yamadanan on the caso here. be willing to attain more informacion.

hour cu daily paper owing to come cu the news here, all cos was hermeticamente close. the two turistanan all the time owing to bandona aruba but autoridadnan local have they name y other detaye by they.

Have a great day Monkeys!   ::MonkeyDance::

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/17/aruba.bone.found/

Tests may soon tell if bone in Holloway case is human
Nancy Grace
By the CNN Wire


(CNN) -- Investigators could know as early as Wednesday whether a jawbone found on an Aruban beach last week belongs to an animal or a human, authorities said.

If it is human, authorities will then attempt to find out whether it belongs to missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, who was last seen on the island in 2005.

Part of the bone is undergoing forensic testing at the Netherlands Forensic Institute in The Hague, Netherlands, according to Aruban prosecutor Peter Blanken.

"They are testing for a DNA match," said Blanken.

Inge Oevering, a spokeswoman for the forensic institute, said the length of testing will depend on the condition of the material, but it normally takes about a week.

The institute's findings will be sent back to the prosecutor's office in Aruba, which will decide whether to make the results public, she said. Oevering declined to provide a description of the material.

Blanken said a part of a jawbone with a tooth was found on Friday by an American tourist near the Phoenix Hotel, a large resort on the western side of Aruba. He took it to the police, Blanken said.

Contacted by CNN, the hotel referred questions to local authorities.

The Dutch paper De Telegraaf similarly reported Tuesday the jawbone was found near the Phoenix Hotel, a location that has been mentioned by Joran Van der Sloot, who was arrested twice in connection with Holloway's disappearance but has not been charged. He has maintained his innocence in her disappearance.

The newspaper said a tourist couple found the bone on the beach and turned it in to the hotel clerk, who alerted authorities, offering a slightly different version of events than Blanken.

The prosecutor said the bone was initially examined by a forensic expert in Aruba, who determined the bone was from a young woman. But Blanken cautioned the final determination would be made by the forensic institute in the Netherlands.

"I'm happy that it's human. And the initial finding is that it's from a young woman, so maybe we will be able to solve this case. I hope so. But we will wait to see what the findings are," he said.

Holloway was 18 when she was last seen in the early hours of May 30, 2005, leaving an Oranjestad, Aruba, nightclub with van der Sloot and two other men. She was visiting the island with about 100 classmates to celebrate their graduation from Mountain Brook High School in suburban Birmingham, Alabama.

Van der Sloot, 23, is jailed in Lima, Peru, awaiting trial on a murder charge in the death of Peruvian student Stephany Flores. Her body was found in May in a hotel room registered to van der Sloot. The two were seen entering the room on a surveillance camera.

Van der Sloot is also charged with a count of wire fraud and a count of extortion in Alabama for allegedly attempting to extort more than $250,000 from Holloway's family in return for disclosing the location of her body.

CNN's Susan Candiotti, Laura Perez Maestro, Brian Walker and CNN Radio's Ninette Sosa contributed to this report.

Thank you to Dana & Klaas & to Jossy!!

Me too ...

A lot of things look like a bone sighhhhhhhh
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/IMG_0902.jpg)

I agree!!!  It would truly be a miracle........but miracles do happen!!!

(http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/12.gif) (http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/16.gif) (http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/20.gif)  ::MonkeyLaugh::

Here's a new slogan for aruba
Come to our beaches,  rated the best for finding human remains and/or become the human remains!

It's good to see all the monkeys who seldom post again.  We always come back when there is news.

I thought a positive ID could be made from dental x-rays as no two teeth are identical, same as the theory of fingerprints. 

In any event, there hasn't been news of any other young white female missing in Aruba so doesn't that point to this actually being Natalee?  I think there is quite a bit of difference in a male/female jawbone with the male being much heavier.

I suppose there could be wear and changes in a tooth post-mortem but still think that at least a redumentary ID could be made if they sent x ray of this find to Natalee's dentist.  And after all this time, I am quite sure the ALE have copies of her dental records.

They know more than they are telling already.  But we are accustomed to that routine.

I know!  And think about how much smaller the population and even tourist count would have to be in Aruba versus this huge country.  And yet we donb't have this kind of remains washing ashore all the time.

Just plain creepy!

In Aruba it’s almost become an annual event.  Next year they can try to improve tourism with the 1St Annual Aruban Skeletal Find Festival!

They can have prizes for first bones washed ashore and Van der Stratten can MC the ceremonies.  They could even have a parade with Anita (Arubans 1st family) sitting on the main float!  Actually Anita could be the main float!

I know I shouldn't be laughing at this but this is so true.

Lmao Lisa

My favorite was a few years ago their new tourism slogan was:

"Come to Aruba  - the only thing missing is YOU"

Oh and the Kalpoes can have a car wash to raise funds for the event! ::MonkeyTongue::

Exactly!!

Maybe ALE knows darn well that no other case related skeletal remains will be found.  They realize that the skull and other bones recovered from the trap on January 7, 2008 by Aruban divers are still in their possession.  Only the jawbone was planted in an attempt to convince Peru to return Joran to Aruban and .. to appease Natalee's family who desperately want to bring Natalee home.  Suspicion would be aroused if the ocean were to give up more remains at the same time.

Janet

+++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: The bag that is above the denim bag looks to me as though it contains pieces of vertebrae.

Kermit


Natalee Deserves

'The Abrams Report' for July 1
updated 7/6/2005 10:47:38 AM ET

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER:  We cannot forget to demand and expect to have Natalee. Natalee deserves to return to her country. She deserves it, and everyone knows it, every single person. Every single person knows that. They know it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8485029/


All We Want

'Scarborough Country' for July 14
updated 7/15/2005 11:45:26 AM ET

JUG TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S STEPFATHER:  Beth and I have been through this emotional roller coaster. And all we want is Natalee, whether she's alive or dead.  We want to bring her back to the United States, and they can do whatever they want to do.

I still refuse to hold my breath......but I agree.

Yes Blonde my husband and I just got back.  We were there all last week.  He's on a 2 week break from his deployment in Afghanistan and he wanted to spend part of that time looking for Natalee.  I just got him on a plane back to Afghanistan yesterday :-(

IIRC, wasn't this slogan split across 2 billboards at the Holland Tunnel in NYC, where you saw the "Come to aruba - the only thing missing...." before going into the tunnel, then when you came out of the tunnel saw the 2nd billboard with "YOU". I'm sure during the time people were driving through the tunnel they were thinking  "N A T A L E E!!!!!"


Lisa in MD
too funny.
 they can have prizes for the first team that can rebuild the most complete skeletons!


Hi Monkeys!!!!

I'm never an optomist when it comes to this, but for some reason I think this is Natalee.

 You took the words right outta my mouth !

I do consider the source ... Nancy Grace and one of her talking heads.  However ... I do believe it is food for thought.  Is the so-called jawbone discovery all about getting Joran back to Aruba?

Janet

++++++


NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. Out to the lawyers.

To Elizabeth Kelley. So in a perfect world, of course, this case would have already been indicted for murder one in Aruba, but now that we believe Natalee`s jaw bone has been found, obviously not dead by an accidental or natural cause.

If they indict him or charge him formally with murder, who gets him first? Aruba or Peru?

ELIZABETH KELLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, your question is a good one, and prosecutors in Peru and Aruba and a U.S. attorney in Alabama who has charged Joran with extortion are going to be duking that out for a few years.

But what you`ve got to think about is, what is the incentive for Joran at this point? Let`s say he`s convicted in Peru of that murder. It depends on what he`s charged with in Aruba. And there has got to be an incentive for him.

Right now, he`s sitting in a Peruvian jail and if he`s convicted, Peru may not relinquish his person to be tried in Aruba, and certainly not in Alabama on the extortion case.

GRACE: Well, yes, because of course extortion is a lesser offense.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

This is exactly why I posed that IF question yesterday. However, I was not thinking about the possibility of Aruba charging him and then acquitting him on lack of evidence.

I am sure since three countries would be involved that this would have to be handled thru some international law venue but which case would take precedence?

Would it be Natalee’s case due to time?
Would it be Stephaney’s case due to his capture and possession in Peru?
I know the US would not get first dibs since extortion is the lesser charge.

This is all the more reason for Peru to step on it!

Before catching up and reading this and the other posts, I had been imagining tourists now scoping the beaches for remains.....sad thought, but in light of the current 'finding', I would think it could be true. 

How is AHATA going to maneuver this in their tourism campaign? 

When we visited the Jersey shore a couple of months ago, there was an abundance of shells being brought to the beach as the tide came in.  I attempted to search for sea glass for my DH's cousin, who collects it.  I found only shells of many varieties.  A woman asked if she could look through 'our' shells.  I laughed and said help yourself, they're not 'ours', and mentioned that I was only looking for sea glass.  About 10 minutes later, she handed me a small piece she'd discovered.  When the tide is rolling in, things in sight can easily be swept away again, but she was in the right place at the right time.

Point being, Aruba now has this new 'treasure hunt' as a possibility.  How on the mark you might be.   ::MonkeyShovel::

Bearlyhere this is perfect with the two men posed in fear and notably standing in the water as Jan Van der Stratten and Dennis Jacobs!

Hi Monkeys! I don't know if it is just me but this feels different this time. I really feel like it is Natalee. I hope so anyway...her family needs some closure. I, too, am not sure how it was "spotted" on the beach....all broken shell pieces look like bones.  ::MonkeyShocked:: Hope we hear some new news soon.

Many of us feel the same way.  This feels different whether the jawbone was "planted" or found accidentally, it feels different.

Here something to provoke a thought or two….

If the DNA tests prove the mandible to be Natalee’s eventually they will have to return it to Beth who naturally will have it retested in the US for confirmation. 

Is there a test that could show from the degradation what atmosphere the mandible had been kept in? 

Clearly what I am try to say is if it was kept ashore for 5 ½ yrs. and then recently placed in the ocean would that be detectable?

I’m a very curious monkey! ::MonkeyQuestion::

Hi monkeys!  We have been praying for a miracle for many years on this one and maybe this is it.  I hope so.  Somewhere back in the beginning of this case, I seem to remember another young woman disappearing there.  Anyone else remember this information?

Also, LE need to go back to where this was found and do some digging.  !!!!

http://jdr.sagepub.com/content/32/5/729.full.pdf

I would assume so, but not sure to what degree. This could have been out of water for 5 1/2 years, could have been in water for 5/1/2 years or been in the water for 3 years - removed from the water and stored on land for the past 2 years!

Do we know when the DNA results will be back? I thought that I had heard today.....................
maybe they are keeping it a secret????

I think Jossy is the one who said maybe today but I think that would be too quick.

ITA.  And I think the timing is right, with Paulus deceased and Joran locked up in prison, among other things. 

I would presume that type of testing is possible.  I know a few of us looked into it in March 2008.  My bet is it's been in sea water for 5.5 years -  in one place for 3, and then in another for the past 2.

this is JMHO, but I think Anita had this piece of human skull placed there, so that Joran would be able to get a trial in Aruba or Alabama, and perhaps remanded to the USA for his punishment, which American prisons are like healthclubs compared to where he is or what is in Aruba.  It may be Natalee's skull.  I have no doubt that parts of her body were kept as souvenirs, just like her underwear that Anita could describe in detail.  Anita has been probably sleeping with the evidence to keep it intact.

Jossy does and always has been interested in sales of newspapers.  Beth is interested in facts.  This is not a test that takes long if they already have Beth's DNA but I would like to have an opinion from AFIP.

 ::rhino::

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_81090.php

This doesn't surprise me

‘Five percent Arubans infected with HIV’
16 Nov, 2010, 06:56 (GMT -04:00)

ORANJESTAD — Based on the number of registered HIV cases and the multiplier advised by the World Health Organization (WHO), approximately five percent of the Aruban population is infected with the HIV virus. Ryan Maduro of E Faro – the institute that stands up amongst others for the interests of HIV and aids patients – stated the aforementioned.

He mentioned this figure during the announcement of the activities from the WAD-committee, in which the institute is also represented, surrounding World Aids Day. The latter was to take place on December 1st, but the committee has scheduled the activities for Aruba from November 27th up to and including December 2nd. The main objective is to inform the public, to increase the awareness, but especially to break down taboos on HIV and aids or sex as main source of infection.
The 5 percent is based on the number of registered cases. Since the first case was registered in 1998, Aruba officially has 489 HIV carriers. Meanwhile, Maduro announced yesterday that up to October 31st of this year, the number has increased to 536. “However, that figure is not official because it still needs to be verified.” These cases are registered with the Department of Contagious Diseases. In first instance, one need not worry about this figure, says Maduro, as it regards 0.5 percent of the population. However, quite a few HIV carriers are not registered because they are not aware of their situation. Maduro: “The advice from WHO is to multiply the number of registered cases with ten. That worries us because we then have a potential of well over 5000 infections, therefore five percent of our population.”

Increasingly younger
The number of HIV cases increases with approximately 20 per year. Maduro explains that most of the infections occur in the age groups 25 up to 44 years.
“They are in the productive or reproductive age or in the process of getting married, getting children, forming families.” Most of the employed people are in this age group, says Maduro. “When one speaks of the 5 percent that could become infected, this could cause many problems in all organizations if this percentage is not treated.”
The HIV/aids movement on Aruba is also concerned about the trend that increasingly younger people contract the virus. This is a worldwide development, about which one recently sounded the alarm during the World Aids Conference in Vienna. The registration of new infections on Aruba over the past two years also shows the lower age. It regards infections in the ages of 15 up to 24 years, young adults. “That really shocked us, and we are very concerned,” says Maduro.

 ::monkeyscissors::

Pure speculation on my part -- I think the "jaw" appeared missing in the "cage" photos. So, where it was/is is really a big guess. Maybe it indeed got washed out of the cage. I still think the odds that it washed up on shore 5 1/2 years later is remote. (but God works in mysterious ways!)

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/hotel-map-1.jpg)

Wreck

Klaas' theory conforms with yours.  It is a possibility.  According to Kyle Kingman's own words when the trap was discovered ... the trap's door was open.

Janet

+++++

Thanks Klaas.

According to Kyle Kingman ... the trap's location aligned with Arashi Beach.

Personally ... I speculate that Natalee's jawbone was planted ....

1.  To distract from recovery of the trap's contents by Aruban divers.
2.  To create a legal means for Joran to be extraticted from Peru to face charges in the illegal disposal of a corpse.
3.  To appease Natalee's mother who will continue to be Aruba's worst nightmare if answers are not forthcoming in the disappearance of her daughter.

Janet

++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case. He claimed that his brother had a vision about Natalee’s body offshore and had coordinates. He and his brother agreed to meet on the Persistence. The detective's brother gave what he thought were coordinates, but turned out to be a line of latitude. This latitude aligned with Arashi beach and came within a half mile of the fish trap.

Kyle Kingman:  My opinion on Simian is that he is a detective/cop involved in the case since the beginning. My understanding is that there is only one of the originals remaining. He came to us during the search along with his brother who had a "vision" on where Natalee was disposed. The vision was cryptic and actually contained a latitude which from what he claimed could have been anywhere in the world. The brother thought they were coordinates, but it was just a latitude. Oddly, the latitude was within a half mile from where we found the trap and centered on Arashi beach. Basically, if you stood on land and pointed straight to the trap and were right on the money... this is what the difference amounts to. Based on this latitude we payed a little more attention to the northern portions of the search grid near that Latitude. The trap was found shortly after, within the original search area, but very close to the provided latitude. I would have found the trap without the latitude, but it was very strange.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

Well, remember that ALE never (at least no one saw them) did anything like they should have such as examine the sea bed underneath/nearby the cage.  So any disarticulated pieces that may have fallen through/carried off and radiated outward by scavengers could have/would have still been there as of Jan 2008.

HLN just said the jaw bone IS HUMAN (the donkey population is surely confused).  NG covering tonight again.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

As far as male or female determination. With only tooth structure and jaw bone, your not going to have a general dentist make that distinction. It may be possible for a anthropologist to give an opinion. I would recommend xrays to compare any fillings or rotations with her past records. Any DNA would be nice in the pulp chambers of the teeth.

I thought that was already determined since they said it was from a small white female.  Silly me for assuming small white female human when it could have been anything.  ::MonkeyCool::

NG needs some kind of bombshell tonight.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::  ::MonkeyJnBox::

ROFL!!

Oh, Klaas............. that's priceless!!

It's Aruba. Hide and watch, they're working on trotting out a herd of pygmy albino donkeys as we speak.

White Female Donkey

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/WhiteFemaleDonkey.jpg)

Klaasend when I'm looking at a tooth or even a jaw bone I can't see any difference based on size or shape.

OMG........... please stop................ my side's hurting!  ROFLMAO!!!!!   

This is what they said last night on Nancy Grace:

Female jawbones have one bump just below the lips..males have two bumps. As far as race.. white people tend to have different molars. Age wise they look at the crown and roots.

HLN about to talk about the initial test results on jawbone. 

I can't watch so please post.  Thanks!

HLN:

Aruban authorities are saying jawbone is human
Need a few more days for testing

Jinkasauraus thinks by the end of the week there may be news

Thank you, so no more than we knew last night.

It sounded link Aruban forensics experts (sorry did not know they existed) are at the Hague helping with the testing

Natalie's Aunt is on NG tonight

Aruba is now saying it IS a human bone  (Glenda can stick that in her donkey pack and smoke it).

Posted on the front page of SM under the jawbone found article:

kkthy on November 17th, 2010 6:19 am

The picture is NOT the one found last Friday November 12th. I know because I was with the vacationer that found the bone on the beach in Aruba at the Phoenix. (my timeshare) The jaw bone had one molar in it still. I am praying that the Holloway family finds closure. If it’s not the Holloway family, that some other family finds closure.

I think it feels differently this time because Aruba has now boxed itself into a corner. 

It seems that a "forensic expert" (and who knows who that could be) was first informing our news program's "source/s" that he/she examined the bone before it was sent to Holland and determined it to be from a young, caucasian female.  Now the "Aruban authorities" confirm it is human.

It's either Natalee or not, but this time if its not... the question WILL logically follow...well, who is it?

Somebody stepped in, got the bone examined before it could be disappeared, and then leaked it.

While the motivation may be nefarious and the somebody may be Dutch, it's also true that the motivation may be glorious and the somebody may be Americans. 

We've been reminded that its not over and that there are Federal Beautiful Individuals still working on it.  That doesn't limit itself to a serendipitous extortion case.

JMO

I can't help but laugh at the name Jinkasauraus... thats funny to whoever made it up. Everytime I hear that name on the news I'm reminded of you monkeys. 

Lmao @ Klaas with the remark about the white female donkey.

Volunteers Take To The Beaches For AHATA Coastal Clean-Up 2010


http://www.aruba.com/news/general-news/volunteers-take-to-the-beaches-for-ahata-coastal-clean-up-2010/

Oh dear Lord, Klaas!  You know what I thought when I saw kkthy.

 ::MonkeyNoNo::

If Crazy went down there and found a bone, he'll be acquitted for sure.

Jawbone was discovered on Friday and this cleanup was on Saturday the 13th.

Does not appear to be the same person.

I'm sorry, Klaas, I should have included a chuckling monkey.   ::MonkeyHaHa::  So, possibly, we have heard from one of the tourists.

My apologies to kkthy, and good for him/her!

Determination of the teeth can be made from Natalee's dental records, which I am sure Beth has.  Bone can be removed (from pulp of tooth) and compared to Beth's DNA to produce identification.

I think there are reasons to assume it is a small white female, but one would be called prejudice to make that determination on a public board but there are reasons this can be ascertained readily but don't say I said that.  Read the Bell Curve.

Hi all : concerning the jawbone being a young white female: Last night on NG all three of those questions were answered by an expert; 1. female because of the jaw being more pointed at the chin & men have two bumps in the area under the bottom lip. 2. & 3. young & white only have to do with the remaining molar, in caucasians there is an extra bump on the inside part of the tooth that is not present in any other race & the root of the tooth continues to grow into the jaw as you age & therefore would be much deeper in the jawbone if the person were older; the tooth apparently was not deeply set indicating a (young) female. Hope this helps!  ::MonkeyWink::

According to Nancy Grace's Forensic Anthropologist panelist ....


NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls and we are headed toward forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney.

Heather, are you with me?

HEAThER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Yes, I am, Nancy.

GRACE: Heather, a lot of questions for you tonight. Number one, how can you look at a jaw bone? I can understand with possibly the chest bones, the pelvic bones, maybe the legs. But how can you look at a jaw bone and tell the difference between a male and female adult?

WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, what you do is you actually look at the chin area. And in females, the midline of the chin is very pointy. In males, it`s actually blunt on the midline and then on either side, let`s say if you put your index finger right underneath your lip on the midline, on males, you`ll have two large bumps there. So right away, you can tell the difference between male and female.

GRACE: So it`s just that easy.

WALSH-HANEY: It is that easy. I promise.

GRACE: OK. Now, next question, Heather.

With me is Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University.

We`re taking your calls so if you`ve got a question for Heather, call it in now.

OK, Heather, you`ve explained that a male has two bumps right under the lip in the midsection of the face.

WALSH-HANEY: Yes.

GRACE: All right. How can you determine that it is a white female as opposed to an Hispanic, Asian, African-American? How do you tell?

WALSH-HANEY: Well, it tells me that they`ve got a molar and the molars of different races have different shapes and different contours. So what they`ve probably done is looked at the contours of the teeth, the crevices and the bumps, and by looking at these crevices and bumps, they`ve determined without a doubt that it`s someone who`s white or of European ancestry.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. So your back teeth. You`re referring to your back teeth, upper and lowers.

WALSH-HANEY: Yes.

GRACE: Tell me that one more time. How can you tell it`s a white female versus Asian, Hispanic, African-American? How do you know it`s a white female?

WALSH-HANEY: We know it`s a white female because the chewing teeth in the back of your mouth, your molars, in whites, they will have an extra bump on them, a bump that`s on the tongue side of that tooth.

And so it sounds to me like they have one of those molars that allowed them to be so doggone determined that it is a white female.

GRACE: So you`re telling me that no other ethnicity has that bump on the back molar?

WALSH-HANEY: Well, typically, no. It tends to be with whites.

GRACE: OK. Let me -- last question. Last question that I know of right now, Heather Walsh-Haney.

Heather, joining us from Ft. Myers, Florida tonight.

Now, Heather, how can you tell between a young adult white female and an older adult white female, say, 20 versus 40 or 20 versus 50? How do you do that?

WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, you do that because, as your teeth grow, they grow from the crown first and then the roots that anchor into the bone. And so what we expect to see with a girl Natalee`s age -- 18 -- is we expect to see that roots for those molars are not quite complete.

The wisdom teeth that many of us get pulled out, for her may not be completely developed yet. And so they`re looking at the size, the length and the completeness of those tooth roots.

They may also be looking at the enamel, the white part of the teeth. They`re looking at the enamel seeing if there is evidence of filling, maybe chipping, maybe wear, that would be indicative of someone who is much older than Natalee.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html

Ok nice transcript thank you. As far as race goes this expert is telling you that there is about a 60% chance of the shape of the tooth is caucasoid. What would be more of a find is whether the shape matches Beth's same molar. Variations are at about 4 million plus. Page 297 Dental Anatomy and Occlusion Dr Kraus, Jordan and Abrams 1969. Sorry the book was behind me in my office. A composite of the tooth, of Natalee's immediate family would be the way to go if no DNA.

It appears that Jossy Mansur is the source in regards to the jawbone is connected to a white female.

Janet

+++++

NANCY GRACE
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING DIRECTOR AND PUBLISHER, "DIARIO" (via telephone): Well, it`s big news here because everything seems to point to a link with the missing girl, Natalee Holloway. It belongs to a young Caucasian woman. It was found on the strip of beach where Joran admitted he asked a friend to dump Natalee`s body. I mean, the ocean was very rough. The waves came. They ate up some of the beach, but they returned a jawbone, lower jawbone with one tooth in it. The police acted immediately on it. It was found on Friday. On Sunday, two police officers traveled to the Hague with it, and the tests are being done right now. And we may, as soon as tomorrow, know the results.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ng.01.html


Natalee Holloway: Exclusive Jossy Mansur Interview … “jaw bone is human and it belongs to a young white person”
Posted November 16, 2010 by Scared Monkeys

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2010/11/16/natalee-holloway-exclusive-jossy-mansur-interview-jaw-bone-is-human-and-it-belongs-to-a-white-person/

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2010/11/16/the-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio-%e2%80%93-tuesday-november-16-2010-%e2%80%93-special-guests-wendy-murphy-blink-from-blink-on-crime-jossy-mansur/

A couple of posts by Flippy  :smt102 at RU:

1) If her jaw appears 5 years later, then she did not "float away" in the deep ocean currents.
2) Drowning victims resurface in warm water. Natalee did not resurface and come ashore in the currents, so she did not drown.

If she did not float away and she did not drown, then the next logical step is that she is weighted down somewhere up-current from where the jaw was found.    


       

Siddalee wrote:
Recently a camera was found in the water off the Florida Keys - the camera had been lost while snorkeling in Aruba!

Flippy  PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:56 pm
 
I don't know the right name for it, but there is a major ocean current that goes directly from Venezuela to Cuba, which then feeds into the gulf stream and would take it right through the keys.

But what it won't do is ever, regardless of time, bring that camera back to Aruba. So if the bone is Natalee's, then she never left.   


 ::rhino::

Buckeye

Is Arashi Beach "up current" from the Palm Beach area?  According to Kyle Kingman the trap was located not far from the Arash Beach.

Janet

Who knows which way the current was running in the storm??

If it wasn't planted....I'm leaning a little towards the wash out from Bubali like Florida Katz described.....or from outside the cage....the mandible was not in the cage, that's why the skull looked small (it wasn't intact).

Too bad nobody roped off the area and searched.... Those kids were always around the Mill Resort and that area.

Thanks Buckeye.

It would now appear that Blanken was the source of info which Jossy revealed on both the Nancy Grace and Dana Pretzer shows.

When I consider the words of Nancy Grace's guest panelist ... somehow I believe the forensic expert in Aruba was able to determine by observing the jawbone that it was connected to a young white female.  If NFI determines otherwise ... this wannabe detective will be very suspicious.

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Janet
 

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/maps/bagwas.jpg)

Thanks Klaas.

Blanken's happiness bothers me.  Could his intentions be to convince Peru to put the Stephany Flores case on hold and have Joran extradited to Aruba to face charges of related to the disposal of a body?

Janet

Does a comparison with Natalee Holloway's own dental records require DNA?  I may be wrong but I though dental exrays were akin to fingerprints.

Janet

++++++

UPDATE: Is there finally a clue to Natalee's fate?
Last Update: 9:05 pm   

UPDATE:    Peter Blanken, an Aruban prosecutor said a forensic expert examined the bone found near an Aruban hotel and determined it was from a young woman. 

DE TELEGRAAF says Aruban Chief Prosecutor Peter Blanken is in the Netherlands but had no comment on the case.  Although the age of the bone has not been determined there are apparently intact teeth which would make a DNA check against Natalee Holloway's dental records possible.

 http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/story/UPDATE-Is-there-finally-a-clue-to-Natalees-fate/3qPqkOKkW0WHGa74m97nPw.cspx

I don't think Peru will let him go (IF this turns out to be Natalee). He's already awaiting trial there.

Ok, may I be the first to say that we can assume this is Natalee's jawbone?
Yes, it is, and that's a major breakthrough in the case... or is it?

If the ocean yielded something after the storm then there's more out there, just a matter of time. I'm curious to see TES involvement.

Also curious to know Joran's reaction to the news.

Edit to correct sp.  MB

The jawbone was found a little bit south of the bag pictures.  The bag pictures were near the Marriott

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/hotel-map-1.jpg)

I don't think you are the first to say and can you explain what you mean by TES involvement?  

Hello everyone! Long time!

Just an fyi (even though alot of us already know this)... Aruba has no DP. Since the crime against Natalee happened before the crime against Stephany, Urine ahem Joran could be extradited back to the Netherlands for his hearing. Since they are anti death penalty, and since they may have a hard time once they acquire him to send him back to Peru for possible execution, I believe this could end up being heard in the Hague...which is where cross juridiction of various international crimes are heard. If this mandible is really Natalee, Aruba could very well get a shot at Joran first. If they find him guilty of this crime (which we all know he is) and if his mother had anything to do with planting this "evidence" then I hope she serves life in prison along with her son. Of course I wish for something worse to happen to this ugly overgrown cellulite filled piece of chit... 

http://www.aruba.com/ExploreAruba/IslandFacts/law.aspx

Aruba Judicial System Details
OVERVIEW
Aruba criminal system is mirrored after the Dutch criminal justice system. It traditionally distinguishes itself from other criminal justice systems including the U.S. on many aspects including the severity of sanctions imposed.
 
Basic two categories of criminal offenses: (i) felonies equivalent (“misdrijf”) and (ii) misdemeanor (“overtreding”)
 
ATTORNEYS
Appointed by the State or privately engaged.
Admitted to the Bar of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.
 
DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE PROSECUTOR
Limited & specific powers:
Denominated as chief of investigation by law. Rarely directly involved in the investigation, usually provides general instructions and police in charge of investigative activities.
Prosecutorial decisions:
Monopoly on which cases go to court. If prosecutor chooses to dismiss a case, that decision can be appealed to the Appellate Court, in which case an order to prosecute could follow. Government/executive branch does not have the power to take prosecutorial decisions.
Prosecuting attorney at trial.
Execution of any sentence imposed.
 
Police investigation is under supervision of prosecutor. Suspect must be informed of his rights.
Suspect has the right to an attorney and not to incriminate himself. Hours of investigation limited. No investigation between 22:00 and 08:00 hours.
Written record is made of all interrogations, not a complete transcript, which will go on file.
 
COURTS AND JUDGES
All judges appointed by the Queen. Not through elections or political appointments. Appointed for life. Judges must follow special, rigorous training of six years to qualify for appointment. Alternate judges can be appointed based on trial experience and specific expertise.
 
Trial by one judge in Court of First Instance of Aruba. Appeals handled by three judges of the Common Courts of Appeals of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba. Appeals at the Supreme Court in the Hague, Netherlands.
 
Decisions of the Supreme Court do no constitute legally binding precedent. There is no official stare decisis although lower courts tend to follow Supreme Court views.
 
Role of the examining judge: (i) during pre-trial to independently examine the legality of procedural aspects and well-being of suspects; (ii) upon instruction of the trialing judge to examine or cross-examine witnesses at request of defense; cannot take the role of a trial judge.
 
Examining judge as a rule not the same individual as trialing judge, to ensure objectivity and impartiality.
 
PRE-TRIAL
Pre-trial detention possible in cases of felonies in case that there are:
“... facts and/or circumstances that can justify a reasonable suspicion of involvement in a(ny) criminal act ...”
 
VARIOUS PHASES OF DETENTION
- Detention (“aanhouding”): detention for up to six (6) hours; followed by release or
- Arrest/detention (“inverzekeringstelling”): per order of the prosecutor plus 2 x 48 hours
- Examining-judge review of the procedural legality of the first 72 hours of detention
- Detention (“bewaring”): extension of 8 days (so far total 10 days)
- Detention (“gevangenhouding”): extensions and subsequent extensions, possibly leading up to the date of the trial
During this phase, the defense has remedies to file for suspension of detention and/or other injunctive measures.
Place of detention: first 10 days usually a police station; after that to the correction facility.
 
TRIAL
Suspects have right to trial within a reasonable period of time.
Public hearing
No trial by jury, but by a professional judge
No plea-bargaining
No death penalty
No permission required by the prosecutor from the court to go to trial
Indictment presented, at the prerogative of the prosecutor, after investigations have taken place
Defense will have chance to cross-examine witnesses before an examining judge.
Maximum sentences: (i) Life imprisonment; or (ii) limited time. Section 11 Criminal Code
Maximum sentence of limited time sentence is 20 years i.e. 15 plus 5.
Life sentencing has been issued in the past by the Courts.
Death sentence abolished since late 1800's and since then no serious attempts to re-instate same.
 
PRINCIPLES OF LEGALITY (NULLA POENA)
No conduct can be characterized as criminal, unless defined by a specific statute
All legal statutes are subject no very strict interpretation
Newly imposed (heavier sanctioning) cannot be imposed on a suspect retroactively.
Only penalties imposed by statutes may be applied.
 
Requirements of criminal act in general
(a) conduct by a person; (b) which falls under the definition of an offense; (c) is unlawful; and (4) for which the perpetrator must be held guilty
 
Justification grounds for criminal acts
(a) self defense (“noodweer”); (b) official orders by an authorized person (”ambtelijk bevel”); (c) hardship/necessity (“noodtoestand”)
 
Access to information in pre-trial stage
No obligation by the prosecutor a/o investigating officers to disclose details of investigation to third parties, including the media.
Press conferences held by prosecution not customary
Prosecutor's office has limited authority to disclose details of the investigation to the suspects.
 
Legal age and prosecution
Below 18 years is considered a minor
In principle no jail time, but if convicted of a felony, placed at disposal of the Government a/o equivalent to “juvenile hall” a/o in combination with half of an adult sentence. In case of life sentence, maximum of 10 years.
 
NOTE:
Although this article has been prepared carefully, it may only serve as a summary of the facts presented and its contents should not be relied upon blindly. The text is intended only as an overview of fundamental regulations of the subject and as such may contain inaccuracies and simplifications in its description of the applicable laws, regulations and case law. Application of rules and regulations in each case are on account of special circumstances and it is recommended that advice of counsel be sought in dealing with the application of the law.
 

ITA

I am not JJ, but I think he means something along the line of TES going back to search for more remains, if the jawbone is Nat's.

I'd like to agree but Peru may not have a choice. I hope they don;t let him go...really hope they torture him!

I certainly hope not.

It sounded like TES had not been involved prior the way it was posted....that's why I asked.  

It is my understanding that the Netherlands (Aruba) does not have an extradition treaty with Peru.  Anita started a petition to have Joran serve his Peruvian sentence in a Dutch jail.

An island of the Lesser Antilles, located within the Leeward Antilles island arc, Aruba is a generally flat, river-less island renowned for its white, sandy beaches. Most of these are located on the western and southern coasts of the island, which are relatively sheltered from fierce ocean currents. The northern and eastern coasts, lacking this protection, are considerably more battered by the sea and have been left largely untouched by humans.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Aruba


General Ocean Currents:

When I've released a patients dental records for comparison using an xrays, only a few things are taken into account. If the tooth has a defect that shows on her dental records that match a filling, or unusual rotation or tipping. More teeth would be better. The morphology issue may help, if Aruba had the will to match Natalee's family with what they have.

Thanks Nut. Yep, that's what I was wondering.
Miss JJ.

The tropical storm came up from the Yucatan Peninsula I think, that would make it like a washing machine in the local waters, like a churning of the shallows around the island. Many hidden sunken ships are uncovered in hurricanes because of the motion of the ocean. The tidal pull brings up the bottom of the ocean. So it makes sense that bones would be washed up like shells.

Natalee had braces prior. The orthodontist would have taken an impression of her full set of teeth. Wouldn't the experts be able to use Natalee's dental cast to compare it to the tooth and/or teeth found in the mandible? Thanks much Kiwi for your knowledge in this area.

Perhaps it's an Arubian/Anita feeble 'round about way' attempt at trying to have Joran sent back to Aruba from his Peruvian justice -- if it really does turn out to be Natalee???

I just am so completely cynical in regards to anything relating to Aruba---anything goes in my imagination. 

I just found this on Visit Aruba Bulletin Board:

Saturday, November 13th, 2010, 03:44 PM
johntheott 
Junior Member   Join Date: November 1st, 2006
Location: Winchester, MA
Age: 81
Posts: 13
 
 
 Re: BIG waves at Bucuti!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife and I were in Aruba last week staying at the Divi. It was not a good week weather wise! Flying down on Sunday, we were treated to a massive cloud formation to the East of us as we neared the island with clouds in the distance piled up, it seemed, as high as we were, pretty sure it was Tomas!! We arrived on time and checked in.

The sky was a thin overcast with the sun peeking through and this was the rule for any sun we got that week. There were some periods of bright sun but that was very unusual, The sea was quiet the early part of the week through Thursday and we did get some beach time between days of drizzle and periods of tropical rain. Something we haven't seen before was the Venezuelan coast visible from the beach. Normally you have to go to the other end of the island to see it.

Thursday night the surf started to build and by Friday morning was in full swing! Large breakers were battering the beach! I estimate some a high as 8 or 9 feet. There were some brave people venturing into the surf but they were getting tossed about and many quit and retired to their lounges. There was a group of island people surfing off of Casa del Mar next door with mixed success. The water line was slowly creeping up towards the resort as the sand disappeared. This continued all day with mostly clouded skies and scattered showers! There were some large squalls off shore with much thunder as well.

Saturday, the surf continued, down somewhat to about 5 or 6 foot waves but the damage was considerable! We had friends that walked the beach up to Costa Linda and they said that the beach was mostly gone from Casa del Mar to the North, Many palapas down or gone and rocks everywhere. On Sunday, before we left, there were 7 or 8 palapas down in the surf in front of the Vista buildings where early in the week there was as much as 100 feet to the water's edge.

As an additional note, planes were landing from the South all week as the trades were reversed by Tomas. At night, the wind would die and the trees were just hanging with no motion what so ever. It was very oppressive in the heat!

We had a great time, as usual, seeing old friends and making new ones. Aruba is a great place to go in spite of the weather but I have to admit we've had better!!
__________________
 
http://bb.visitaruba.com/f2/big-waves-bucuti-15687/

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: "But when you get here--bye, bye birdie!"

NVM, I can answer my own question. Natalee's orthodontic cast (which would have been made prior to her getting braces) can be compared with the mandible and it's tooth/teeth to see if it's her. Please refer to the following:

Forensic Odontology

http://www.policensw.com/info/forensic/forensic5.html

I agree-it's all too convenient.  If not now-it will be soon ...  Aruba wants to erase Natalee from their blackboard.  I don't see how that will ever be possible, however.  The American public is not stupid.

I understand why there's confusion with what I've stated but it's not so. Matters of international justice are heard at the Hague - this is worldwide regarding matters of international crimes in various countries. Since the crime against Natalee occurred before the crime against Stephany, I think Aruba would have jurisdiction. I hope not, but I think they do. I believe Peru will fight that, if the need be, and it could be tied up in the international court system for a lengthy amount of time...all of which would keep Urine alive. His mother would never win such a request for him to serve his sentence or be heard in Aruba (or The Netherlands) unless Natalee was found. Sooo, isn't it ironic that all of a sudden a mandible washes ashore? One of the biggest factors in not being able to try this pond scum in Aruba is bc Natalee's remains weren't found. This all disgusts me so much. I absolutely hate to think his mother could have something to do with the coverup. Even though I thought it before, now I'm pretty serious about it and that bothers me immensely!

sorry, crime against natalee occurred before the crime against stephany.

Fixed.

Completely agree, which is why I refuse to ever go there again! I tell everyone I know about Natalee and how their legal system is. Sucks.

I don't feel it, but I do soooooooooo hope you are correct!

2NJSons_Mom  - just wanted to say Thanks my dear! Oh, I'm a Jersey mom too!

 ::HelloKitty::   sandy leiva  long time no see  ::HelloKitty::

 :thumright: :salut:

Oh Tyler!!!   I so totally sense that if this is Natalee--there's an Anita connection in the wings lurking with an ulterior motive.  They've proven all too predictable over the years and it appears Anita's wild cards all seem to have expired.  All my opinion.

Excellent idea. Taken one more step. The orthodontist cast should be Digitized or scanned with any of the current crown systems. Most of the large dental labs have them for making all porc. crowns. The file could be emailed to who ever has the jaw and tooth. The mapping process could act like a fingerprint somewhat. At least it would and to the DNA comparisons. Under no condition would I release your master cast. Even the FBI could scan it in office since they are portable.

Donkeys are feeling left out, no doubt!   ::MonkeyHaHa::

http://www.24ora.com/local-mainmenu-5/24389-alerta-di-dengue-na-aruba.html

Alerta di dengue na Aruba    
Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:28

Departamento di Salubridad Publico ta informa cu si e cantidad di casonan di Dengue sigui aumenta manera den e ultimo simannan ta e caso, cu dentro di algun siman nos lo tin un epidemia di Dengue na Aruba.
E gravedad di e epidemia aki lo ta hopi mas severo cu den pasado. Den pasado un gran cantidad di persona a yega di wordo infecta caba cu un of mas tipo di Dengue y cu un infeccion nobo e biaha aki e posibilidad pa Dengue Hemoragico ta aumenta drasticamente. Departamento di Salubridad Publico ya caba a tuma tur e medidanan necesario pa por contene e situacion alarmante aki. Sinembargo ni cuanto medida gobierno por tuma, nunca e lo no ta suficiente si pueblo no haci su parti. Pueblo ta parti importante di e solucion. Ta pa e motibo aki cu Minister di Salubridad Publico, dr. Richard Visser, ta haci un apelacion urgente na pueblo di Aruba pa yuda den evita cu nos lo haya un epidemia. Awor mas cu nunca ta importante pa cada persona deshaci di obhetonan cu ta wanta awa - manera taira, bleki, boter, vaas, scoter bou di mata - rond y den nan cas.

 ::monkeyscissors::


I'm sure all the rain they had this year hasn't helped.

I still have my son's! I also saved all of his teeth that were knocked out in a baseball accident! I tease him all the time that he better not ever try anything criminal bc I have all the evidence needed to connect him with my lil box of teeth & his dental cast! Haha! Incidentally, his teeth may be all fake now but they're beautiful!

If I were Beth, I'd take all of Natalee's orthontia (bc I'm certain she kept her cast just like I kept my son's) and take the fbi with her to Aruba...to check it all out.

Sorry to hit & run everyone but my family is waiting for me to watch a movie. Sports sports sports are finally taking a break so I finally have some time to spend with my fam.

Hugs to all!

 ::MonkeyHaHa::   That is too funny!!!!!

Who said or tested the found object and said it was a small white female. Isn't that beyond their capabilites on the rock? I am trying to not get excited. Too many other times.

http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6225&Itemid=1

http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_flippingbook&book_id=2


(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/HollowayCaseNews1/11172010_Bondia_01a-1.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/HollowayCaseNews1/11172010_Bondia_02a.jpg)

Papiamentu translation:

afresh aruba is blanco by news internacional on caso holloway without cu have have to

wednesday, 17 november 2010

oranjestad – once more yesterday aruba owing to attain atencion internacional on the asunto by natalee holloway hour cu one news cu ‘a attain one kaak humano’ at beach cu ‘por is by natalee holloway’. that was sufficient before tanto prensa mericano because esun by the netherlands cuminsa cu they speculacion y sensacion in they form, perhudicando aruba once more. at aruba all the time can owing to make a note on the medionan social manner twitter y facebook, cu comentarionan local not was nothing positive.

for by diabierna hour cu police owing to confirma cu owing to attain cachete cu tooth at beach, y cu police will owing to confirma cu this is by one being human, was sufficient for her crea the atencion internacional, more still cu atencion local. this because is custumber come to anend cu know attain part by skeleto throw rond at aruba cu casi always is resulta by is by one or another animal.

in the caso here the mature cu police will owing to confirma cu this is deal by one being human was sufficient before speculacionnan cuminsa.

the mature cu afresh is one tourist owing to attain this, y cu owing to go haci her ‘trabou’ by entrega this at hotel y after police, was sufficient before posiblemente cuminsa cu the rumornan afresh. already yesterday morning televisionnan mericano cu is respeta they self manner nbc, abc y cnn owing to cuminsa raporta this in they noticiero by morning. y rapidamente prensa dutch owing to cai inside where cu owing to compronde cu fuera by media skibi dutch, the was on all noticiero by all canal dutch during entire day.

this owing to crea one wave by reaccion tanto by afo because local, where cu esnan cu not was at altitude by the hayazgo recien, owing to cuminsa bombardia aruba cu question on the caso here. y cada uno at her form was fomenta the news at her manner cu owing to laydown cu finalmente is aruba once more owing to depart perhudica cu news negative.

the question cu door more owing to domina, was door that y where prensa internacional owing to succeed laydown hand on the informacion here. is one mature if cu for by time by the caso holloway, cu aruba is below ; one ‘loop’ by cada cos cu can ‘remotamente’ have relacion cu the caso, cu is sufficient before open one injury afresh before quite, cu is considera the caso here nothing more cu one sensacion negative cu do not serve aruba by nothing. come across

This is exactly what I fear.

I believe the "discovery" of this jawbone is no coincident.  It is all part of a plan to get Joran back on Aruban soil to face a trial in the Natalee Holloway case.  However ... when all is said and done ... Joran will receive a slap on the wrist for the disposal of a body.  Considering there is no extradition treaty between Peru and Aruba ... Joran will never be held accountable for the murder of Stephany Flores.

 :gaah:

Janet

Kat_Gram

The topic was discussed a few pages back.

Janet

+++++++

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8849.msg1263522#msg1263522

Nancy Grace and Jinkasaurus were discussing Beth's comments with Joran about a plea deal.

Jossy is joining now!

NG saying the DNA results are in.
She doesn't have them yet.

Jossy said they'd hoped to have news today, but maybe tomorrow they'll know more than they do now.

With no extradition treaty, Peru does not have to release Joran to Aruba.  Peru will try him, if he isn't already dead by his hand, or others, he will be convicted.  What I wonder if he then  is to serve the sentence for Stephanie's death before he is release to either US or Aruba for prosecution.

Did she say if she'd announce them if she gets them during the broadcast?

She says she's waiting to hear, but I doubt it'll be this hour.

Why would NG get the results?  Wouldn't you think that the prosecutors office and Natalee's family would hear first before NG?

My opinion would be yes, he'd need to serve out his sentence.

I hope you are right AZSunny.  I have a terrible feeling about everything.

Janet

I was thinking that because Natalee's Aunt was on the program that she might get any news and NG would obtain from her.

Good point Sleuth  ::MonkeyCool::

Renfro is gonna call her. ::MonkeyCool::

Joran started laughing when he heard about the jaw bone.   ::MonkeyMad::

I agree. I'm not sure that you could find a forensic anthropologist in every university here in America. Unless someone is on Indian dig there for the last 5 years. So what big find is in Aruba that would keep an anthropologist there?  Every time they find anything with a bone we have an instant expert there. If they do have a resident, name them and their credentials or at least why they never leave the island. So all anthropologists just spread out across every island in the Caribbean?

NG says she's on a DNA watch (wait).
It won't be tonight. I highly doubt it, but anything's possible.

Jossy says that there is no other young white female that they know of that died. 

Jinkesaurus says Joran laughed when he heard about the bone, per Joran's lawyer.  Daniel Horowitz does not believe it, and that it might be a translation problem.  NG is adamant about it, and that the lawyer told them it in English.

Yes, but she has earphones in her  ears. If there's anything released to the wire services, she'll be told by her producers.

She has been busy...
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/my_photos_/GlendaBonsai.jpg)

HAHa   ::MonkeyDance:: Coastal Clean up! They are trying to get a head start before any more skelatons wash ashore!  No telling how many are out there!

True

Hi Nut and all other monkeys who are checking in for info. Ive been in the rafters and reading daily just havent posted. But i do wonder hat is the significance of the 3 musketeers bar Beth gave to Joran at Castro Castro prison anyone have ideas? I pray Beth gets some closure soon, ill be here in the rafters till i have something more to write...sl

Somehow during Beth's interview with Joran in Peru, I missed the part about the Milky Way bar.  I didn't remember that.

The video of Beth and Joran was pretty amazing. I do not understand the candy bar. Beth brought that scum bag a CANDY BAR??? Do you know what that was all about? Why did she give him her e-mail address.....does he have computer access in prison?

Sorry Renfro is stuck under her Rock and some hard place with no cell phone reception! ::MonkeyWink::

3 Musketeers -  Joran, Deepak, Satish ??

 I just heard in the interview on Nancy Grace that Beth took in a copy of a three muskateers wrapper to Joran in jail... what was the significance of that?  Sorry if this was talked about, i just never heard about it.

I feel as strongly today as I did since June 2010 -- Joran will NEVER leave Peru alive.

Thats exactly what I was thinking....

So when JQK went to Aruba to speak to Joran, when he was trying to extort Beth, he ate Milky Way and coke.  Beth brought that for him in Castro Castro.  IMO, it was more of an in your face than nice gesture  ::MonkeyCool::

He said at the end of the interview that he did not understand the significance of the 3 muskateers.  Beth responded that she thought he would know.  I don't believe for a second that it was because that was what he had with JQK.  I think it was a subliminal message.

That's my assumption. She gave him a milky way because she couldn't find a 3 musketeers bar.
She said she doesn't understand the significance of it, but that Joran does, and perhaps he's explain it to her.

Ok I get what your thinking Klaas.  Thank you

One area of rejoicing if it is proven to be Natalee's jawbone would be that Natalee's parents would be afforded the opportunity at long last to bring their daughter home to rest on American soil.

It has been a given that justice out of Aruba for Natalee Holloway was never going to happen.  There was a cover up agenda established at the getgo to protect Joran and it has been ongoing.  However ... if justice were to prevail for Stephany Flores ... the implication would be that while Joran sat for years in a Peruvian lockup other Natalees and Stephanys would not be at risk.

Janet

+++++++

It's 8:45. I thought Nat's aunt was supposed to be on. So far she's appeared.
This is suspicious to me. Do u think the family has received news?

I was thinking it was some type of subliminal message also. Or a clue someone gave Beth

Natalee's Aunt was on earlier. They also posted a statement from Dave.

I mean she's not appeared.

Has NG mentioned it at all? You'd think that if the Aunt was not on due to them finding the results, NG would be the first to know?  Unless they don't want it released to the public yet.......

right at the end when Joran is at the door to exit the room he turns back to Beth and asks why 3 muskateers bar ans she replys something to the effect that she wasnt aware of it but thought he might know what it means.then He leaves the door closes and she sits holding her head in her hands and cries.

She was? I wonder where I was, OMG. I'm losing it.

I missed this but what info did that caller have that Nancy Grace put on hold?? If anyone heard that please post it. Thanks!!

Curly - Natalee's Aunt, Linda Allison, was on earlier.  They don't really have any news yet, and indicated that they have been told so many times that something has been found, etc. that never develop to anything.  They are nervous about getting optimistic at this point.

The above is NOT a translations but is the jist of what she said.

That caller had a personal, non-related issue where they were seeking NG's help.  They started to provide their phone number on the air - that was the point NG put her on hold and said a producer would get her info and NG would review it after the show.

Thanks, Sleuth. I must have been in the bathroom because I didn't see it.

She also said that she had not talked to Beth about the jawbone, but had seen her within the last few weeks.

Ok Thanks a million... I was trying to listen but someone came by to talk my ear off ugh!!

Deadly Connection?
NBC News
updated 6/11/2010

TRANSCRIPT

<snipped>

According to Kelly, the FBI sent an advance team to Aruba to coordinate with Aruban authorities and set up for the sting, outfitting a hotel room and rental car with hidden cameras and microphones.

CHRIS HANSEN: How did you think this was going to play out?

JOHN KELLY: I wasn’t sure. I was just holding my breath, the whole way. Every step of the way.

After a mostly sleepless night, Kelly arrived in Aruba on May 10.

With FBI agents monitoring, Kelly returned to the Marriott hotel, where he says van der Sloot met him.

CHRIS HANSEN: When van der Sloot walks into room 443--

JOHN KELLY: Yeah.

CHRIS HANSEN: --what does he say first?

JOHN KELLY: "How you doing?"  He's covered with sweat.  He apparently walked from his house to get there.  And, you know, I just told him to have a seat.  Gave him a Diet Coke.  We actually split a Three Musketeers.

<snipped>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37650865/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/page/5/

The bone appears right after TM and Aruba's plans for a search which TM says Beth's trip to Castro Castro ruined their plan??? I still suspect the original plan Joran had documented according to Terror Jaap...

But whatever the plan is...please let it be Natalee!!!

Do you suppose that Tim and Steph Watts could have planted that lower jaw in the bird sanctuary
pond...to follow the Terror Japp story... to try to clear Silvetti's name?  The high tides from the hurricaine
washed it to the shore line.  The Divi Phoenix is a straight shot from the bird santuary.

Magnolia - I don't think so  ::MonkeyNoNo::

I think it had to of been planted by someone because what are the chances of something washing back up to shore right in the area where Joran said he dumped her. It's too coinicidental IMO.  Either it was planted or she's buried there in that area.  But then there's the skull in a cage with the door open that seemed to be missing a jaw bone.  It's all odd.

Posted on the front page of SM:

kkthy
2010/11/17 at 9:53 pm

Yes, I was there… We have a timeshare at the Aruba Phoenix where it was found and we were there last week and found it on our last day there, Nov. 12th! I wrote to Nancy Grace at CNN tonight just to clarify to her where the “tourists” that found it were from. We brought friends on vacation and my friend actually found it. It was a lower partial jaw about 5(ish) inches with one molar still in it. I think the molar had a mark on it but I’m not sure if it was a cavity/filling. (From the center of a persons chin to where it connects to the upper jaw)

It would have been nice if this person would have taken a picture to post for us.

Just a far out thought on my part.

I posted on the front page and asked her if she happened to take a picture.

Agree......urine will never leave Peru (Castro Castro)....

Edit-add missing quote bracket.  MB

Awesome thank you Klaas!!

Sorry I messed that up lol.

Again thank you Klaas!!

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Magnolia...sorry you disagree with an option I raised..Are you here to fight with any dissenter or other opinion rather than your own? Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote? Maybe I didn't clarify it for you? Possibly you just enjoy getting in your sarcasm...I only raised an option that Aruba is still following that plan. However I am gone now...as are many others before me. Because of your attitude. Yet I can support Beth in other ways with out coming here. I have no idea why some value  jumping others who have opposing views. Maybe you are special. I was only here for Natalee and Beth anyway. Not for you.

Whoa!!  I meant no offense to you or anyone else.  I aplogize if you took offense.

Agraria -  Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything like you are accusing Magnolia of at all in the posts on this page.  She has apologized.  BTW, I noticed you gave her a "great big hug" in a post on November 6, when she posted a transcript from the Daily Mail when Beth went to confront Joran at Castro Castro:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8719.msg1258250#msg1258250

Magnolia has apologized.  I really don't like to see fighting  ::MonkeyNoNo::

Why was that an "opposing view"?? Merely another possibiliity. Seems you are picking a fight that wasn't even there.

WTHeck are u wearing ? I didn't recognize you.
I agree, and yet, he looked better in the video they showed on NG than he has in a long time. Maybe the not drinking so much, fewer drugs, something about him, he looked healthy for a dead man walking.

I think we're all on the same side here:  Natalee's side.   ::MonkeyAngel::  Hopefully this was a misunderstanding and we can continue on. 

I didn't understand the misunderstanding, either...if that makes any sense, and I don't mean to make light of it....I just don't understand where the problem arose. 

Just checking in. Always hoping for some resolution. Love the Christmas avatars!

Hi Port Valerie, it's great to see you.  ::HelloKitty::

Hi, Port Valerie.  Good to see you.   

My new Avi is for my buddies in the "Football wih Frijole" thread. (I'm an Oklahoma State "Cowboy"). I'm thinking about switching back because I look like a University of Texas marching band member!

 ::MonkeyDance:: ::CowboySmiley:: -- sorry for the OT)

Good to see all of you, too, keeping the focus. I live near the ocean. It's pretty big. I think it would be pretty amazing if a bone found after all this time actually solves this case. If it's Natalee, I would think the bone was planted. But I'm sure this has all been discussed at length. Will have to go back and read up. Love to all monkeys!

I don't understand either.  I have been trying to figure it out.  But I am sorry if I caused trouble.

I have been trying to stay quiet.

http://www.generaccion.com/noticia/83737/familia-flores-aseguran-que-joran-van-der-sloot-vive-como-rey


Google Translation

FLORES FAMILY SAY JORAN LIVES LIKE KING

Stepahany Flores was murdered on 30 May in a hotel room, which hosts the Dutch Joran Van derSloot. Who is the prime suspect in the death of the young.

Everything indicates that the murderer would derSloot Van Stephany, because a video shows that he was the last to see her alive and enter the room where he was brutally murdered.

However, the family of the victim shows his great reproach to the Peruvian justice system, noting that Joran lives "like a king in jail."

"It is shameful what happens in prisons. I think the INPE has to give the same treatment to all criminals," said Ricardo Flores outraged father of the girl killed.

He added that it's been six months since the detention of the Dutch and "until this day refuses to give his statement to the judge," he said to a local television station in Lima.

"Unfortunately it seems that there are laws in Congress to protect the criminal, not to try and sentence them." Flores said indignantly.

Magnolia

I didn't see anything in your post that I found offensive, Magnolia.  I'm not certain why Agraria reacted in that way, but you did apologize for any offense, so I would say let's just move on.   ::CowboySmiley::

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub9%20June%202010/WreckCowboy.jpg)

A Mother's Legacy
Loving Natalee – Beth Holloway

Page 200: My child. My beautiful daughter. I can’t save her. It’s too late. Natalee is gone. And second to the great tragedy of losing her is if we fail to learn from what has happened.

I could be any parent in the world. And no parent should ever go through this experience. Natalee could be anyone’s daughter. And in these thoughts a new path is made clear. There is something I can do. Many people reached out to us, and I can now reach back to them. It might be too late to save Natalee, but it’s not too late to save others. And it’s time now to make good on my pledge to stand before high-school and college students, law enforcement professionals, victims’ rights groups, travelers of all ages, and anyone interested in personal safety to share Natalee’s story and our hard lessons, so that others might learn from them.


Natalee Holloway Resource Center (NHRC)
http://www.crimemuseum.org/NHRC
 
Mayday 360[/b
]http://www.mayday360.com/default.aspx

It had to be a misunderstanding Magnolia, you said nothing wrong.

I, personally, don't know how I feel about the bone finding.  I don't feel it's different like some.  Maybe it's because I've become guarded after all these years and I certainly cannot put myself in Beth's or Dave's shoes with regard to being guarded and disappointed.  

I'm still not convinced that even IF the bone was to be proved as Natalee's that anything will come of it with regard to legal proceedings in Aruba.  It may only give the family something of Natalee to bring home.  Good Lord, it makes me cry to think of that.

Hopefully, Agraria will have a change of heart and come back.  It seems to be a misunderstanding to me, as I said before.  

typos

Hi Port Valerie!  ::MonkeyDance:: Nice to see you!!

Wreck, it's a cute monkey. How does it feel to have hair?   ::MonkeyCool::

I'm glad others didn't get the argument. Makes me feel so much less stupid 'cause neither did I.

I don't get the 3 muskateers/diet coke thing either, but maybe it's just between Beth and Joran. She had a purpose, and that's enough for me.

I throw my hat in with those who can't shake the feeling that the jaw is Natalee's. Every bit of case history screams it won't work out, but I have an inkling it will, and I pray it does for Beth's sake.

2NJ, I have no expectation about the bone other than hope that Beth can bring it home and have a decent burial. I don't expect anything legal to come of any of it. Personally, I think Aruba would hope it might lessen Beth's intensity to find Natalee and therefore keep the case out of the news.

It's against the odds that we'll ever know the truth about the bone based on events up to now, but that little bit of hope, for me, springs eternal.

I've read back a little. There doesn't seem to be any information about the "tourist." Tourists found things before, IIRC, and got their pictures plastered all over the place. I am reading this incident as "a bone was turned in at the desk of the Hotel Phoenix." If it's Natalee, Aruba is giving her back, not the ocean. IMO.

Nothing wrong with that!   ::CowboySmiley:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::CowboySmiley::

Goodnight, all. I will keep watching this space for new developments. Here's hoping and praying for a final resolution and justice for Natalee and Stephanie.

 ::MonkeyAngel::

Natalee's Candles

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5700.0

Thanks to the faithful.

I came back in after the fact, and I've been trying to figure it out too.  Doesn't make any sense at all to me.  I don't see anything wrong with what you said either, and you shouldn't try to stay quiet!  Maybe Agraria was just mad about something else, and will apologize if she chooses to come back.
 ::MonkeyConfused::

Thanks 2NJ!   ::MonkeyKiss::

Good night Port Valerie!

Me too CBB!   ::MonkeyKiss::

Thank you, 2NJ for the candle reminders. May Natalee's always burn brightly and keep hope alive!

Smoochies back at you, TM!

I sure hope and pray the jaw is Natalee's! The family needs closure...first things first...BRING NATALEE HOME ::MonkeyAngel::
But if aruba thinks that will end their problems caused by urine and the rest of the disinfo/cover up crews.......they should know we aren't Monkeying around......Justice for Natalee is our goal.....

PUTTING TWO AND TWO TOGETHER


(http://pokerroomreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Joran-Jaap.jpg)
During Jaaps interview Joran drew a map saying Natalee's remains are in the Bubali Bird Sanctuary. This is the map that Steph Watts went to Aruba and filmed.
Steph Watts says he rec'd the map Joran drew. (he acutally rec'd the map from Dave Holloway).
(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5854/bubali1.jpg)


Steph Watts at Bird Sanctuary aka Bulbali
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5503/birdsanctuarybalbai.jpg)

(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/108/bubalipass.jpg)

(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5854/bubali1.jpg)


Producer Ellie talking about a map Joran drew describing Natalee's death, the Bubali Bird Sanctuary where Natalee's remains allegedly are. NG says the map looks like something a 5th grader would've done. Ellie saying he's drawn many maps; none of the previous information has led to Natalee.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5299957

Joran Van Der Sloot Drew A Map To Natalee Holloway's Body
(http://guanabee.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/enq-cover-265x364.jpg)

June 4, 2010Dutch authorities raided the home of Amesz and confiscated evidence at the request of the U.S. Justice Department, who were investigating Van der Sloot on charges of extortion and wire fraud, but they didn't manage to find the map. Frustrated with the Aruban authorities' refusal to reopen the Holloway case regardless of the map, Amesz sent a copy to Holloway's father, Dave Holloway.


June 8, 2010
Investigators in Aruba are searching near a bird sanctuary.
http://www.newser.com/story/91778/van-der-sloot-confession-leads-to-new-search-in-aruba.html


Story posted 2010.06.06 at 10:49 PM CDT
Birmingham, AL (WIAT) -- "Jossy Mansur, editor of Diario newspaper in Aruba , spoke with CBS 42 by phone, Sunday afternoon. He said there are two planned searches on the island. He says one will be near the bird sanctuary and the other near the dam.

He in turn shared it with a private mounted search and recovery team working for the family called Texas Equusearch. The director of that firm, Tim Miller, told the Enquirer, "We have the map." They are in the process of negotiating with the government of Aruba for cooperation in holding a search for Holloway's remains at a national park called the Bubali Bird Sanctuary where Joran claims the body is located



(http://guanabee.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/bubali-bird-sanctuary.jpg)


August 23- 25 2010 - KALPOE DEPOSITIONS


September 16, 2010 - Beth in Peru with Peter deVries, visits Joran at Castro Castro prison.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/06/article-1327180-0BEF1990000005DC-933_468x279.jpg)


November 16, 2010 JAW BONE FOUND
Authorities are testing a jaw bone found on a beach in Aruba

Just a play on words....but I like the "Split" 3 Musketeers symbolism...
It's over for urine and k2's case against Dr Phil is coming to an unfavorable ending for the 3 Musketeers ::MonkeyDevil::

(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1465/joranshippedbacktoaruba.th.jpg)

I thought I'd do a stock just for the old days.

What I thought was so very interesting was how Joran made sure he got that candy bar and the coke before he took off back to his cell. Shows you how his world has changed and will only get worse as time goes on.

I'd mail him a case of Three Musketeers if he'd tell me where Natalee's remains are.

Kermit,
Another important date in this time line (MHO) is urine was captured and arrested on June 3rd 2010. Your thoughts please...

Link on NG for video of Beth confronting urine at Castro Castro...
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2010/1/17/exp.ng.natalee.holloway.cnn.html

AZ Sunny is right on this one.  If there is no extradition treaty, then Peru can do what they damn well please.  My thought is that Stephany's family may be willing to have him extradited to Alabama to face the charges of extortion and there is a possibility so I have been told that (lots of loops to jump through) but Joran could be tried in Alabama for Natalee's death.  It has to do with international law that Alabama partakes in, that some states in the USA do not.  It was more than my brain could take on a day when we had a friend dying in CCU from a horrific accident and lots of legal beagles talking, so I just did not grasp the whole account. 

If that were to occur, Anita would join Paulus as Alabama, unlike Aruba or Peru, has the death penalty but that would also free Anita of any problems in the future.  She might like his disappearance from the face of the earth better.  Joran is going to face hell coming and going in Peru because one day the funds will run out and he will left to the mercy of the street thugs in prison, which he will not, without the greenback, be able to survive.   

It's probably that wires of this special content are picked up readily by the international news services and CNN/HLN probably has an agreement, "me, first, me first, me first" with anyone in the know.

Anita fancies herself an anthropologist and Paulus a judge, although neither is either.

Joran, Paulus and Anita
Joran, the kowpunch boys.

God Bless all of Natalee`s family through this. Keep them strong!

It would be nice if it happened today on the 18th day of November.

Natalee was 18, and so it would be fitting.

    Justice for Natalee Ann

 ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel::
::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel::
 ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel::
 ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel:: ::MonkeyAngel::    pray  for  a   m i r a c l e !

You are absolutely right about that.  I totally agree.  I was not aware that was what he had when he was trying to extort the money.  No need for words when she did that; she was sending him a message indeed.

If the bone was planted then it had to have been in a place where it was retrieved... like the van der Sloots yard.
If the bone came from the crab trap, which the DJ arranged, then the storm blew it in like Lacy Peterson finally washed up on shore.
If Natalee went for a swim then the rest of her bones would be very close to the jaw bone.

Alot of the speculation I see on here comes from the stories Joran made up after the fact. He knew the bird sanctuary was just that, a sanctuary where no one could search because it was protected, he was throwing the police off track and wasting LE efforts. The report of the boat operator who helped came from another source IIRC. There was a witness to that... thus pointing to the crab trap.

Nothing Joran said can be taken seriously. As we've seen in the Stephany case, he lies, a tiny bit of truth and then the rest is fabricated. He leaves out the truth which is locked safely in his head. You would think by now that we would have a drug to extract the truth.

Anyway, crabtrap, DJ, rest of the bones are in the bottom of the ocean waiting for mother nature to reveal.

Edit:  JJ, Natalee's name is spelled with two e's at the end of her name, not ie as you have been spelling it.  I've edited the last couple of your posts that have misspelled her name and I will edit each and every victim's name I find misspelled in this forum, because I feel their name is important.  As far as other typos in general, I don't really care, since I'm most interested in content.  But please, please spell Natalee's and other victims names correctly.  MuffyBee

One more thing. If Aruba does get jurisdiction I believe they will do the right thing to clear their good name and make peace with tourism.

From last night 11.17.10  Transcript  NG
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/17/ng.01.html

imo, the whole thing isn't worth posting. I'll let you guys decide which, if any parts to post....

Bearlyhere, BoxerDawg, PJ, carpe noctem and 10 Guests are viewing this topic

 ::teddybear::

 ::rhino::

::HelloKitty:: :salut: :smt006 ::CowWave:: ::teddybear::

Nut44x4 and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.  ::MonkeyTongue::

I'm glad you mentioned that Tylergal!  I started to last night, I know it's been discussed here more than once.  Found this, and it may be what I'm remembering.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2432.0

Karmaroundup and Janet's posts: