Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

I'm pretty sure the people TJ thinks are friends of Terri Horman are absolutely not.  They are long time members of SM who just happen to have a different view in this case than I do. 

I still can't wrap my head around how TH could be so stupid to sext with a friend of KH when her computer and phones would be of interest to LE to find out what happened to Kyron.

Or to complain about Kyron and Kaine right before Kyron goes missing! Even if Terri is innocent, (which I highly doubt), the sexting sort of fits in with her personality. It is all about her and her needs. If she was really sick and tired of Kyron, his going missing may not have rocked her world. Therefore, the texting would not be a big deal for her. She wanted to nab Kitty out of daycare, so why not sexually manipulate Michael Cook to help her? What would be really ironic, is if Terri is not guilty of this and her horrible behavior and indifference to her step-son being missing is what lands her in jail. She certainly has not acted like a grieving parent of ANY kind. Maybe she just does not have it in her.

From the previous thread.  I'm bringing it forward as I haven't had a chance to really look at this website.  Sure looks like DeDe has gained more weight:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1EFCaar9-AQ/TR2XqNznn-I/AAAAAAAAAA0/br7TTTygKU0/s1600/Cindy+and+DeDe+Spicher.jpg)


From here:

http://thetruthwillsaveyoursoul-truthteller.blogspot.com/2010/12/ask-and-ye-shall-receive.html

 ::HelloKitty::

It's a real photo as the TH supporters are getting all over Cindy's case and dissing her on their website-the Kaine Horman Reality Show.

There are screen shots of it on Chana's site now.

DeDe does not look like she is taking care of herself at all. Guilt? Stress? Depression? I don't know. She just looks so different.

To me it looks like she doesn't have on any makeup.

Yep, yep...can't wrap my head around the sexting to MC, nor emails of hatred against Kyron, NOR why any other person would assist her in a kidnapping (or worse) of a little boy.  Jail time!  Why? would someone help someone else do that?

In the previous thread, someone said this picture looked funny to them and asked if it was photoshopped.  I, personally, don't have the skills to figure that out, but if it is...I'm sure folks that are good at this will tear it apart.

Personal observation, DeDe's hair wrapping around the other lady's wrist looks natural to me.

Can someone please explain to me the significance of this photo to me?  TIA

Is it that these two are/were friends, but that the friend has turned on DeDe and "thinks" DeDe is guilty?

I "know" I must be missing something.  If the lady is saying that LE doesn't want her to talk and she's saying that she doesn't want to blow her cover, then WHY is she letting all this be posted on the internet?

For gosh sakes!! If LE wants her to keep quiet, it would be to protect the case...why can't that woman do that?  What is so important about getting your face plastered on the internet?

I'm a pretty good photoshopper and it does NOT look photoshopped to me

 ::HelloKitty::

The other woman is Cindy Butcher Smalley.  She was an administrator on the TH support page when it was up.

CBS knows the stepmother of TH's son.  CBS apparently also knows Carol Moulton.

CBS has had contact with TH and DD and apparently does not think either one is innocent.

 ::HelloKitty::

Apparently, CBS has not really contacted LE.  Does she really know anything?  Who knows.

Klaas - TY.  It looked natural to me, but as I said - I don't have those kinds of skills.

I haven't seen any emails where Terri expresses hatred for Kyron.
I read the one where her perception was way off IMO where she complains about the 30K she once had and how she did everything.
What would tip me over is : Her mental health issues in the past, if anything was ever diagnosed and if any meds were ever taken for it. The divorce lawyer has asked for those records as part of the assessment for visitaiton / custody and I wonder if when and if those records are ever provided, they would become public ?

HK - do we know who wrote the message to Tom that says LE wants to keep this quiet and she doesn't want to blow her cover?

I haven't seen any emails where Terri expresses hate for Kyron either.  I took that from what Desiree said - that she have been informed of emails by Terri and the hatred, etc.

KG - I don't believe the records themselves would become public, but information gleaned from them and presented in open court could make it into the public news.

It has been a constant one up manship between the facebook supporters and anti supporters. There has been very ugly things said, nasty name calling and constant rumors and innuendo. It does appear the there are those on both sides who know the players personally to some degree. If they would pull all of their energy together and start planning a vigil, a search, another fund raiser. Maybe they could canvas areas where Kyon posters have not been put up. Maybe there is a method behind all of this madness, maybe some of the players are weakening?

Here is another thing that does not make sense to me. Terri allegedly volunteered in Kyron's class all the time. She was known around the school. If there was tormenting of any kind going on with regards to Kyron, don't you think that someone at the school would have picked up on it? Aren't they obligated to report suspected abuse? I just don't feel that Terri had a long term hatred of Kyron. I think someone would have picked up on it. I think that Terri snapped and it was only in the last few weeks or so before Kyron went missing. I think that there was a breaking point. Maybe the back story that some of us think may exist.

CBS

Ha.  Okay.  So the reason I'm confused, IS because it's confusing...CBS writes like she's talked with LE but you're saying apparently she has not really contacted LE.  Do I have that right?

 ::HelloKitty::

I really feel shy monkey showed how TH could torment Kyron and no one would be the wiser.

Emotional abuse is really really hard to prove.  If she left marks on him, that would be one thing.  but marking the soul doesn't leave marks that can be shown to someone like a welt or a bruise.

Kyron started school very young as well.  I am sure some of his behavior was chalked up to being immature by the teacher.

Yes, that is what Chana and Tom are saying.  That CBS said that she was going to go to LE but she never did.  Apparently they know that to be true.  I don't know anything,  Just what I read and hear.

Because they love her?

Okay...here:  http://thetruthwillsaveyoursoul-truthteller.blogspot.com/2011/01/photoshop-really.html

A little more - an it does appear someone's "outting" CBS....so you can't believe a word she says.

I think if LE tells someone to shut up and they are not following those orders then perhaps they should spend a few days in a cell to think about it!

Could it be they didn't know at the time they were helping Terri cover up a crime but thought they were helping their friend who they believed was being wrongly accused? could they have offered up "something" to the friend to prove her whereabouts so the heat would be taken off?

So who is CBS then? Is that the lady in the pic with Dede? sorry I am confused

 ::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: WOW~no kidding........so this is Chana aka CBS with Dede? I read she only became aquainted with DD after Kyron went missing and inserted herself in the case so deep thinking she'd get media exposure......of course all of that us rumor, and IMO so is the Chana blog that she knows anything, if she did I think or hope LE would talk with her and surely she wouldn't be forum hopping and posting pic's of her and DD if she was even remotely reliable, and I sure as He77 wouldn't post my picture with DD on the net? I personally think she's a fry and a burger short of a happy meal.

 ::HelloKitty::

Chana is not CBS.  CBS is Cindy Butcher Smalley.  Friend of the stepmother of Terri's son.  Friend of the mother of TH.  And new friend of Dede.

What I was talking about was if Kyron didn't leave the school with Terri - then Kyron left with someone else - that person - why would that person help take Kyron away?

One thing about the texts is clear to me, Terri sounded so desperate for this man to like her. I mean she pulled out all of the stops to get to him. I wrote I felt almost embarrassed for her obvious lack of self worth. MC is no prize, no offense but he isn't. She knew it was Kaines friend so was she trying to get back at Kaine by going after his friend. Did she know that Kaine would learn of the sexts and that was a goal of hers? I would bet she was pretty pissed off at Kaine for taking the baby, by "causing" all of this trouble for her, was she trying to get back at him.

I really think, in her mind, she is so much smarter than everyone else, she believes herself to be untouchable. Her changing stories seem to have worked up until now. It appears even before Kyron went missing she was a liar, or at minimum exaggerating facts, painting herself to be the smartest, the best, an expert.....
I know people like that and usually their "I did this and I did that and I'm the best" stories get a few eyes rolled at them, people thinking they're full of crap and once out of sight, out of mind. All the media attention and people truly trying help find Kyron are now in mind, in sight and comparing their Terri told me different, notes. I think she was so good on her feet with believable BS stories, that she never expected people comparing and disputing what she said so she couldn't prepare.

On another unrelated, indirect comment, where Kyron is concerned there is a chance she didn't do this so I hope all leads are being followed. Him getting found is number one on my agenda and if it turns out TH wasn't involved, then she's wasn't involved.

However TH as a person and her character, she's provided more than enough proof for me to think she's a self centered, narcissistic, loser that seems to have left a trail of divorces and in her oldest son's case, a kid. She has a me-me-me mindset and justifies her own actions by always blaming someone else, nothing's her fault, she's a victim. I can't even begin to guess how she got from point A to point B. Point A being a person who's step-son has gone missing (more or less from her care), also half brother to her own daughter and her husband's biolofical son, point B being her hours and hours online posting how concerned about Kyron she is, between posting on random unrelated topics and then claim she doesn't see anything wrong with that.

I searched 18 hours nonstop to help my stepdaughter find her cat after they moved. There was a few times I went to check email to see if our lost ad had been answered and I'll admit after 10+ hours I would have rather stayed there than continue searching, but with an upset stepdaughter I couldn't even justify me being online when he was still missing. That was for a missing cat, this search is for a missing little boy and TH's biggest concern is what people are saying about her on the blogs. Who does that? Who the hell cares? If it were my son or stepson I could care less what a bunch of unknowns, most likely will never meet, people were saying about me. I would deal with irrelevant to the search crap, when it got to the top of my to do list. Unlike TH's agenda, the "we need to find Kyron ASAP" would be listed long before "search out blogs and defend self."

I'm not sure which bothers me more, that from day one she's been hangin' online or that she's been hangin' online, facebook, blogs, whatever and claims to see nothing wrong with it.....with her and her supporters trying to sell the idea that TH is the real victim here, she's who needs support with all the meanie-pie's pickin' on her accounts and other *poor Terri* and what this has done to her stories. 

I remember reading posts that Terri had on her Facebook:  all I want for my birthday is a kiss from my husband. (I thought that sounded sad when I first read it.)

Ok, now it is making more sense. She is Angela's friend. I knew I saw her name before. Why is she meeting up with DeDe now? Does she fancy DeDe some sort of pseudo celebrity? I wonder if Angela and Terri are still friendly? I still wonder why Angela and Terri's ex allowed James to go back and live with Terri. They must all still be on good terms?

I am totally confused, so this is posted on Chana's blog or not? If so, why is she posting or stating she is posting info she "sleuthed".......maybe her colors are wrong or house has bad feng shui/or mine are since this web of whackodoos make no sense to me whatsoever, and I think TJ is up there on that unbalanced list too.  ::MonkeyTongue::

That's what I think. She did it to spite Kaine. I do, however think she liked to manipulate men in such a way.

That is a different senario, I think my thinking fits with the receipt to allow for an alibi.

The answer I have ever been able to come upw with for your question is, if terri got someone to help her I would think that person would somehow personally gain from taking Kyron such as a pedo or a person who sells children on the blackmarket or believed they were helping him in some way such as a marter type of situation. Or I suppose they didn't know they were actually kidnapping Kyron. 

Is it true that Dede asked for immunity? If true, does that mean she has a hand in something, somehow and doesn't want to go to jail for it? 

She wasn't thinking, which is what bothers me. I wonder if she is on and off some sort of medication? If she is so ingenius that she found a way to kidnap her step-son and get away with it so far, how come she was not smart enough to figure out that sexting to her husbands high school friend is not a good idea so shortly after her step-son disappeared?

Yea I suppose if you read it that way it can show a lonely person, that is sad. When a marriage is falling apart it can really send people in all kinds of directions mentally. I really do think there is a back story that will come out that will not give a reason as to why Terri may have done this (if she is guilty) because there is no reason, but perhaps an explanation of sorts of events that lead to it. I just feel that is the case.

She had said something about Dede just brought her a drink, maybe she was drunk...I will say though, they are going to have to prove the texts were written by Terri. I would gather from the pics, lol, they could prove parts of her where there, lol. OMG sorry but those texts were crazy! I think I am blushing right now!

Don't throw nanners at me but I am starting to buy into the whole DeDe has the hots for Terri scenario. I was re-reading JW's letter last night and he stated that Dede said that if it did not work out for them he would be the last MAN that she would date. Maybe JW took that as a huge compliment not realizing that she would just go back to girls. Anyways, I think that there was much more to the Terri and DeDe friendship. DeDe planned her last birthday event and DeDe stayed with her after Kaine left.

Tracygirl,
Did they put the sexts online?

I saw some texts, got the link somewhere here on SM...but I did not see any photos  ::MonkeyShocked:: and I am not sure I saw all the sexts.

Does anyone know why that Krause woman on the Anti Terri page is copyrighting everything that she posts from Tom Jones? Is she planning on writing a book? For profit? He isn't Ghandi for crying out loud!

Are you online Island Monkey? Isn't the Krause woman the person who owns a huge horse farm with some guy from M-E-X-I-C-O?

Yes there were on line. I can send you them if you want. No pics although plenty of talk of the pics that were taken...Wow that was one woman who was looking for attention from the man she was texting! Yikes! I can't understand why MC if not to upset Kaine.

Can you give us the jist without going all porno on us, lol! ::MonkeyDevil::

I could never figure that out....... but found a Janice E Krause that had a company in Virginia Equestrian area http://janalleather.com/About_Us.htm, I wonder if it's the same and think it is due to some connections, but again it was late and unvetted..... It was so late it and my mind was to boggled to vet much more and I was on the beach today, also she is copywritng Klaas post within those of TJ'er....



Janice Cerin Krause
Dec 31, 2010 at 6:45am, grainer wrote:
From Scared Monkeys - FINALLY!

klaasend
Administrator
Monkey Mega Star
Offline
Posts: 65007

Re: Kyron Horman, 7 years old, Portland OR #39 12/24/10 -
« Reply #748 on: December 30, 2010, 10:15:38 PM »
Quote from: klaasend on December 30, 2010, 09:49:05 PM
I will not allow it to continue here. If you want to investigate Kaine then do it someplace else.
And if that means there is no discussion until the time of either an arrest or the divorce hearing next week that is fine with me too.


tomjones
the real TJ
Dec 31, 2010 at 12:04pm
Maybe Klass was seeing how silly it was for her great site to be bashing the bio parents. All the other good places that have the power players talking about how messed up her site was looking for condoning such behaviour might have woke her up.
Dd told me her mother and her mothers best buddy and dd her self post there.
Dd said she posts there, but would only make a random comment or two.
BS! I'm sure once she started posting she kept on posting. Fly hangs her hat there too.
Now with those four women posting there I wonder how it got swayed into a Kaine hate fest???
Can you say diversion? Look over here and not at the truth!!!
They have been playing around in this from the start.
Come on! You have to know that dds parents are going to talk, they are as invisible as all the other posters that are using a fake avatar name.
It's all they can do to help their side and cause. Steer the conversation away from the two main POI and toward the people who accused them to the public.
The parents of T&D are most likely the ring leaders or at least very close to them.
It would be Fly like to deny it.

"Copyright Dec 31, 2010 by Janice Cerin Krause"

I am blushing. Well she talked about a golfball a few times, lol, she took some pics, gave some details, yep that is all you get from me. lol.

sassifrass good eye
i see it, the man couldnt walk through, and the desks that you can
see in curtis pic, are back to back  see jpg, unless someone moved the desks
b4 the man came, which is doubtful, i think the pic was taken the day b4 too

sassifrass post
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9159.msg1283208#msg1283208

pic #2 jpg source
http://www.kptv.com/slideshow/kyron-horman/23806039/detail.html
-------
klaas post
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9159.msg1283218#msg1283218

when uploading pics, the program for the device, cam,disk,Mcard
will always put the last pic you took, first in the folder, and most people
click the first pic in folder, then the next ect, to upload, maybe thats what
TH did, but without a time stamp, we cant know, but i bet LE does

I SOOOOOO need an edit button, think she in not due to connections....I need another nap LOL

I highly doubt that Klaas gave Ms. Janice permission to copyright her post!

I knew you would blush Tracy, that is why I was joking with you about going porno on us, lol! ::MonkeyDevil:: I kept wondering what the golf ball references were all over facebook, lol!

So he is saying 4 of us are Dede, her mother, her mothers friend and whoever Fly was are all related to this? The 4 poster are not posting against Terri and questioning other things so must be Dede, her mom, her mom's friends. I would think he is pointing to maybe Puzzler, Maybe myself, maybe Sebastian, maybe monkey king and maybe Island Monkey?

Who are these "main players" he is talking about that was coming down on Klaas for "allowing" posters to have a different opinion and who are bringing down the site? Is that true Klaas? If you can't answer I understand, I am just curious is all.

It's sort of funny that Tom Jones thinks that DeDe and DeDe's Mom and the Mom's best friend are all posting here all the time.  He accuses posters GLP and SoCal's site, too, as being what he "thinks" they are based on an posting or two that puts his immagination into motion.  He's has to apologize, too, for making wrong assumptions. 

Klaas has told us several times that there are over a 1000 (believe I have that right) people wanting to get on SM and she doesn't have time to check them all out...and for DeDe and Mom and Friend to all be posting on here, they would have basically had to be posters long before the Kyron case came to be. 

I think it's just Tom's imagination running away with him.

I was trying to figure this out earlier and the best guesses I could come up with was

1. She somehow included the friend that helped in the story of why it happened in the first place . Like for instance say person A and B decided to plant a bunch of pot plants on land person B was an employee of. Person A's rage, resulting in death has nothing to do with that illegal activity but it's A's story so B is told the child found out and was planning on telling, which could potentially send us to prison forever, followed by a what should *we* do, I was just protecting *us* and claiming she was trying to scare not kill him.

2. Simply pick a name from the dumb and gullable friend catagory, call them up and feed them a bogus story like the accident happened when the child was again caught molesting a baby sibling. Then convince them to help out a friend. Some of TH's friends are under the impression that the definition of a proven fact = "because Terri told me", so finding a friend to help may have been easy.


I know those are pretty far out there but that's the best I could come up with after days of trying to figure out what kind of person would allow themselves put in a story like this.

  ::MonkeyDevil:: No clue......but rememeber when someone thought NRCG was Dede's mom..THUD, if the bothered to check they would have noticed we have been posting here for a long time, not since 05 but definitely far longer than this tragic case

Well I am trying to hide these posts from my kids who are near me playing with the wii. lol. I am changing the subject!

I recently read somewhere that LE spent more than one night at the Horman household, in face many nights. Does anyone have a link for this? I kept wondering why Kaine did not force Terri's hand in regards to any knowlege that she may have had about Kyron's disappearance. Think about it, if you thought your spouse had taken your child, would you just stand around and ask politely where that child is? Not me! As soon as my spouse had closed his eyes and dropped off to sleep, I would find a way to get the info! Maybe LE hung around to protect Terri? I also heard that when DeDe went into the Grand Jury, no questions were asked of her. Does anyone have a link for that? The premise was that she came in, the Grand Jury got a LOOK at her and then she was dismissed. I will never forget that smug bug in a rug look on her face. That is one of the main reasons that I think that she is involved. Who does that? An innocent little 7 year old boy is missing and possibly deceased and she comes out of the Grand Jury all smug and sassy? UGH!

No I would never give anyone the right to copyright my posts, lol.  I was just checking this Janice person out.  She spends alot of time on Facebook and seems to follow some other missing person cases.  Looks like she grew up in Northern California.   IMO, she is just someone else that has gone way overboard inserting herself in this case.  If she really is currently living in Oregon, she might know the family.  Who knows?

I think it's just Tom's imagination running away with him.
yep as soon as he knew his cuz was being looked at, zoom went the  imagination

Just to stop any speculation, I do not know this person just because I live in NorCal! lol.

Not too far out there considering these players. I would like to add C. Get a dopey bi-sexual woman to fall head over heels for you. Tell her that you "accidentally" hurt your beloved step-son and need help disposing of the body. Could the dope please come over and drive my cellphone around Suavie Island while I head off with the body in another direction? And could the dope please get me a receipt from one of the stores that I said that I was at?

IF Terri is guilty, I think that DeDe plays a part. Why has she refused a lie detector test? If she was just working on the farm the day of Kyron's disappearance, why not take the test?

I think Tom needs to realize there are billions of people living on the planet with him. He is suffering small world syndrome. I have over 5000 posts and have been here since  beautiful Sandra Cantu's case. A simple member profile search will do wonders to help investigate posters.

This case wants me to change my nic here to: Clueless  ::MonkeyTongue::

when i heard LE stayed in the home, i thought maybe kyron had been kidnapped, then the MFH plot leaked
i think LE knew about the MFH, way b4 the leak, and thats why they stayed, not sure how the LE, found
out about the MFH, so im prob wrong

 ::MonkeyHaHa::

He is suffering small world syndrome
 ::MonkeyHaHa::

Okay...DeDe's father is in LE...I just knew the day that we saw DeDe leaving her house to get in the car with her father that the first thing he would tell her to do is to NOT take a LDT. 

Those tests don't always work.  Because of that...they're not allowed as evidence in court.  Some people can show up as deceptive, when they're NOT being deceptive.  Some people can show up as truthful, when they're deceptive.

We "know" that.

People act like refusing to talk a poly is a sin and "proof positive" that the person is guilty of something. 

That's just not so.

IMO, DeDe didn't take a LDT because daddy told her not to...just my opinion, based on his line of work.

::rhino:: ::rhino::

No doubt, she even posted a threat on FB to destroy anyone who post anything neagtive about anyone but Terri or Dede..... I knew the Madi McCann case was horrible but I think the FB aspect has made this one worse in many aspects sadly

I sort of feel sorry for him...at times he almost sounds like he's going to lose it...at other times he's so accusatory, I get cold chills thinking he going to end up getting sued over it...at other times, I think he's reveling in the attention....recently, he's seemed a little down because he's gotten a hint that DeDe's brother and his friends are going to release some bad stuff on Tom on Facebook. (What would he expect after all he's done - he's also gone off the walls on Flymonkey, too).

That's just my take on reading his posts.

I hear what you are saying Puzzler, but daddy also has to know about public perception. My father would have said "if you are innocent take the test". If there are any problems, I will get you an attorney. Why would the Grand Jury just want to get a looksie at DeDe?

Whatever game all of these players are playing, it sure seems to be rattling some cages. Maybe someone is shaking them trees to see what falls out?

What? This is over the top in my opinion. I think people can feel strongly about something without threatening to distroy others who do not feel the same way. My goodness get a grip.

JANAL Leather, located in beautiful downtown Culpeper,Virginia
http://janalleather.com/Visit_Our_Store.htm

i dont remember seeing the place 3yr ago, when i was there,the site didnt say when the co started

Oh trust me I know .......when the oil spill happened I was worried sick, then we had tar hit and it was clean within a week (although it never hit bad where I am) anyway I posted beach pics as normal on FB and I had death threats ::MonkeyEek:: I was all of the sudden a BP employee, shill etc., and all I was saying is a random tar ball is NOTHING compared to what we know as tragedy, but most of those nuts are back on their meds and now onto another conspiracy. They thought the gulf was going to explode and kill 200 million people ::MonkeyHaHa:: and that there were mercenaries running around, it was insanity

I have read several things that I think are based on rumor that she was wanting immunity in order for her to speak to the GJ. So I am not sure what is true or not. Interesting what you posted Sebastian, perhaps there is some speculation about her posing as Terri?

OMG Island Monkey! You are soooooo funny! ::MonkeyDevil::

There was something about Virginia in the beginning of this case, anyone recall what it was?

Oh my!

Tracygirl,
Wasn't there an alleged siting of Kyron there? And didn't Terri have a good friend who lived in Virginia? I don't recall the name though!

In checking the family phone records, LE found RS number on Terri's phone and went to RS home...RS told them about the MFH plot at that time.

Hi Cw,
That makes sense too! I had not thought about that!

thanks guys brain is sleeping gota go

I still think that there is much more to the RS story. They are keeping him hidden and will not allow Terri's attorneys to have access. He supposedly uses an alias. His wife and kids supposedly disappeared. I think whatever is related to RS is much bigger than a he said she said MFH plot. As far as RS being deported, isn't Portland a sanctuary city?

So not meant to be either.....I am dead serious, and have the screenshots to prove it. Now I just need to check and make sure there is no corexit in the pool of ninja's in my yard (that was exactly how whacked out these peeps were)....I finally uploaded the photo of my glock to my profile pic and it died down (no pun intended) ::MonkeyTongue::

Had to look that up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city

Sanctuary city
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
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This box: view • talk • edit

Sanctuary city is a term given to a city in the United States that follows certain practices that protect illegal immigrants. These practices can be by law (de jure) or they can be by habit (de facto). The term generally applies to cities that do not allow municipal funds or resources to be used to enforce federal immigration laws, usually by not allowing police or municipal employees to inquire about one's immigration status. The designation has no legal meaning.[1]

Contents [hide]
1 History of sanctuary cities
1.1 Political action
2 Controversial incidents
3 Electoral politics
4 References
 
[edit] History of sanctuary cities
 
Cities referred to as sanctuary citiesCities in the United States began designating themselves as sanctuary cities during the 1980s.[1] The policy was first initiated in 1979 in Los Angeles, to prevent police from inquiring about the immigration status of arrestees. The internal policy, "Special Order 40," states: "Officers shall not initiate police action with the objective of discovering the alien status of a person. Officers shall not arrest nor book persons for violation of title 8, section 1325 of the United States Immigration code (Illegal Entry)[2]." Some of the 31 American cities are Washington, D.C.; New York City; Los Angeles; Chicago; San Francisco; Santa Ana; San Diego; San Jose; Salt Lake City; Dallas; Houston; Austin; Detroit; Jersey City; Minneapolis; Miami; Denver; Baltimore; Seattle; Portland; New Haven; Somerville, Cambridge and Portland, Maine. These cities have adopted "sanctuary" ordinances banning city employees and police officers from asking people about their immigration status.[3][4]

[edit] Political action
The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 addressed the relationship between the federal government and local governments. Minor crimes, such as shoplifting, became grounds for possible deportation.[5] Additionally, the legislation outlawed cities' bans against municipal workers' reporting persons' immigration status to federal authorities.[6]

Section 287(g) makes it possible for state and local law enforcement personnel to enter into agreements with the federal government to be trained in immigration enforcement and, subsequent to such training, to enforce immigration law. However, it provides no general power for immigration enforcement by state and local authorities.[7] This provision was implemented by local and state authorities in five states, California, Arizona, Alabama, Florida and North Carolina by the end of 2006.[8] On June 16, 2007 the United States House of Representatives passed an amendment to a Department of Homeland Security spending bill that would withhold federal emergency services funds from sanctuary cities. Congressman Tom Tancredo (Republican-Colorado) was the sponsor of this amendment. 50 Democrats joined Republicans to support the amendment. The amendment would have to pass the United States Senate to become effective.[9]

In 2007, Republican Congresspersons introduced legislation targeting sanctuary cities.[10] Reps. Brian Bilbray, R-Cal., Ginny Brown-Waite, R-Fla., Thelma Drake, R-Va., Jeff Miller, R-Fla., and Tom Tancredo, R-Colo introduced the bill. The legislation would make illegal immigrant status a felony, instead of a civil offense. Also, the bill targets sanctuary cities by withholding up to 50 percent of Department of Homeland Security funds from the cities.[11]

On September 5, 2007, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told a House committee that "I certainly wouldn't tolerate interference" by sanctuary cities that would block his "Basic Pilot Program" that requires employers to validate the legal status of their workers. "We're exploring our legal options. I intend to take as vigorous legal action as the law allows to prevent that from happening, prevent that kind of interference." [12] On May 5, 2009, Georgia Governor Sonny Perdue signed a bill into law that prohibited sanctuary city policies in the state of Georgia.[13]

On June 5, 2009, the Tennessee state House passed a bill banning the implementation of sanctuary city policies within the state of Tennessee.[14]

A July 30, 2010, op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, written by the former general counsel of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, questioned the future of these havens in light of the federal court decision that on July 28 struck down key provisions of Arizona's immigration act (SB 1070).[15] It stated, in part: "Judge Susan Bolton ... handed Arizona a significant victory against renegade localities seeking to undercut our nation's immigration laws."

[edit] Controversial incidents
In March 2008, Jamiel Shaw Jr., a high school athlete, was murdered in Los Angeles by Pedro Espinoza, an illegal immigrant gang member from MS 13, as he was walking home. It is believed that Espinoza mistook Shaw Jr. for a rival gang member. According to Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton, police did not check Espinoza's immigration status after a recent arrest for alleged assault, and Espinoza had been released from police custody a day before the murder.[16] As a result of Jamiel Shaw Jr.'s death, a new ordinance was proposed by family members that would allow police in the area to arrest suspected illegal immigrant gang members.[17] In May 2009, members of the Shaw family filed a lawsuit against the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.[18]
In July 2008, a criminal gang member from MS 13 and illegal immigrant Edwin Ramos allegedly murdered Anthony Bologna and his two sons, Michael and Matthew, in broad daylight during a traffic altercation in San Francisco. Ramos had been previously convicted of two felonies (including a gang-related assault of a young man aboard a bus and the attempted robbery of a pregnant woman) in 2004, at the age of 17 years, but was not reported to federal immigration authorities, and therefore not deported, due to San Francisco's sanctuary city policy.[19][20] The city rejected any claims of liability and family members of the victims have filed a lawsuit as a result.[21]
In July 2008, a young woman was robbed and violently injured in San Francisco's wealthy Pacific Heights neighborhood by an illegal immigrant named Alexander Izaguirre. Before the incident, Izaguirre had pleaded guilty to selling cocaine in the city's Tenderloin neighborhood and was involved in previous purse-snatching crimes, but avoided jail due to his enrollment in a program called Back on Track, which is run by District Attorney Kamala Harris and provided training for jobs that Izaguirre could not legally hold.[22]
On July 31, 2008, 14-year-old Ivan Miranda was murdered and nearly decapitated in a sword attack in San Francisco's Excelsior neighborhood. Authorities arrested Rony Aguilera, known as "Guerrillero," in the attack and believe Aguilera is an illegal immigrant from Honduras. Aguilera had been arrested in 2007 in an assault case, but was never reported to federal immigration officials due to San Francisco's sanctuary policy.[23]
In October 2008, a drunken driver illegal immigrant, Salvador Vivas-Diaz, crashed his car against the police car of Phoenix, Arizona policeman Shane Figueroa which later resulted in Figueroa's death. Vivas-Diaz had four arrest warrants, a suspended driver’s license, had been charged with forgery and failure to return to court but he was never reported to federal immigration authorities due to Phoenix's former sanctuary city policy.[24]
On September 4, 2008, Francis Hernandez, 26, an illegal immigrant from Guatemala, was driving at twice the speed limit when he plowed into a Baskin-Robbins ice cream shop in Denver, Colorado leaving three people dead (including a 3-year old boy who was with his mother eating ice cream at the store) and two injured. Hernandez had been arrested at least 12 times before but was never reported to federal immigration authorities due to Denver's sanctuary city policy. Hernandez was convicted at trial and sentenced to 60 years.[21][25]
[edit] Electoral politics
This issue entered presidential politics in the race for the Republican Party presidential nomination in 2008. Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo ran on an anti-illegal immigration platform and specifically attacked sanctuary cities. Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney accused former mayor Rudy Giuliani of running New York City as a sanctuary city.[26] Giuliani's campaign responded saying that Romney ran a sanctuary Governor's mansion, and that New York City is not a "haven" for illegal immigrants.[26]

After the murder of a restaurant waitress in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in late June 2009 suspected to be perpetrated by three illegal immigrants (one of whom was not deported despite being arrested for two prior DUI incidents), mayoral candidate Richard Berry decried the city's sanctuary city policy. He also vowed, if elected, to repeal the policy that has been continued by the incumbent mayor Martin Chavez.[27]

[edit]

I do think there's much more to RS.

Okay Puzzler,
You have been dancing around it for a while now. Why do you think that Terri is innocent? I truly want to know your theory. I am open minded and am open to any and all theories even though my hinky meter is on Terri.

Just so you all know and understand who Janice is....she is on FB, has been posting since the beginning of this case, DOES NOT own a horse farm, and has been to Mexico, yes...on a cruise, with her husband. The reason she added the "copyright" to her posts is because they came from aTom at another site where he was free to "express himself" in certain language that is frowned upon at the Anti TH page on FB.

Janice took a LOT of time and effort to edit those posts and remove full names, curse words, etc. that was inapproriate. After she posted them there, with Tom and the other forum owners permission, someone came along and stole her work and posted them elsewhere.

So, her issue isn't with the copyright per se, and she does not have any plans to write a book. Her issue is that someone stole her efforts/ Had they asked, she may not even have had a problem with them copying HER editing, but they didn't.

That is the story, and in actuality, she is no more "overly involved" in this case than many people here are.

She did not ask me to post this, but I have been posting with her since June, and she has done a great service to Kyron, in more ways than one, so I think her efforst should be appreciated and not result in her name being dragged thru the mud like SOOOOO many are.

Just my 2 cents.....

There is also the possibility that RS wife and family went underground for their own protection. Phoenix is the kidnapping capital right now. That is because of all of the Cartel and Crime gangs in Mexico retalliating against family members in the U.S.A. RS could be involved in something else completely unrelated to the Hormans. He also could just be an innocent person who happens to have not so innocent family members in Mexico.

Hi Nurse! Nice to see you tonight! So, you too have been posting on facebook? Do you personally know any of the players? What is your take on cousin Tom?

Interesting question Sebastian, I hope she comes back and gives that answer.

Dang it all, both Puzzler and Nursey ran out on me and my questions!

I do not think that Terri is "innocent".  Actually, what I've repeatedly said is that I lean toward her being "indirectly" involved.  I don't see at this point that she, personally, took Kyron from school and did away with him.  That would be "direct" hands-on involvement.  Did she set up "the" plan? Did she let the vampire in?  IDK.  I lean toward that she is involved in an indirect way...some how.  Because of her lifestyle, she could caused a person wanting to get revenge on her to act out in a way via Kyron.  Because of all the 50 billion things we don't know, Terri could be behind any one of them. 

When I try to figure out how she had help, I keep coming up with "who" would put their lives in such danger as to help her kidnap or dispose of a child.  It would take a complete idiot, IMO, to just say okie-dokie, I'll do it just for you.  I don't buy that some love-struck guy or gal was coerced into helping Terri do away with Kyron.  If I'm proven wrong, I'll be glad because to do that LE would have to have arrested the guilty party(s).

So, who would help do this heinous act?

Revenge...yes...I see someone doing it out of revenge...revenge/payback/anger/I'll show you...at either Terri or Kaine or both of them (who knows at this point what the reason would be for revengs - but, truthfully, RS pops into my mind often).  Would a revenge act be something that Terri would know about - or - be involved indirectly because she's done something in her past that could have caused revenge to be put into motion?

What we do know is LE doesn't have any physical evidence of Kyron or anyone connected to Kyron and they need concrete evidence and they are not ready to make an arrest or indictment.  So what you see as dancing, is me not knowing and questioning.  LE says Terri has cooperated. I know they're looking at her strongly...the reason I keep thinking that she's involved some why.  No evidence...pretty clever housewife.  Is she that smart?  Don't know. 

Seven months later, 40+ agencies, one step-mom housewife - no evidence, not named suspect, not named POI. 

I'm just not one of those people who can lay complete blame on someone until LE to look at that one person.  I do soooo want LE to be able to get the evidence they need and to tell us the direction to point our fingers.  That day will be great...I won't be surprised if the name is Terri...it won't matter to me one iota...but at this point, I also won't be surprised if they name someone else.  I just want the truth to come out.

Too long a response...short version...I don't think Terri's innocent.  I think Terri's guilty in some way OR an act of revenge occurred OR another person acted without Terri's knowledge.  Three theories.  Hope LE show me soon where to point my finger.

I think you sum up what I think as well, although in the past 24 hours I have considered Terri did directly do this and asked someone to help her but that person didn't know they were helping her get rid of Kyron. At this point I think many things are possible and I have to have faith Le will solve this case and most importantly, find Kyron. That should be the number one goal, find Kyron.

Every time we talk about "finding Kyron", I remember (with much sadness) Stanton's comments in the 12/4/10 interview:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

"That six-hour window -- a lot was lost," Staton said. "That's still frustrating to me because I think that's one of the things that really hurt. That six hours ... I wish we could regain those six hours."

Off to bed and no not with Dede's father as I am not Dedes mother, lol, sorry but that is just too funny. "see" you all later.

I read and post almost everywhere, yes on FB since the beginning. I do NOT personally know any of the players. I have not even met any of the FB posters yet, but several people have met each other, and several people in that group and others from FB are instrumental in many of the "pro Kyron" activities such as The Wall of Hope, The Ribbons, the origami birds, the fund raisers, Ebay, and the Foundation. As these efforts have taken more and more of their time, some only post rarely now, but they have pretty much been the same group of supporters that started in the beginning on FB.

As far as Tom, he's the real deal, incredibly saddened at Kyrons and his families circumstances, and incredibly hurt and dissapointed to know what he knows. His life, for being as young as he is, has been beset with many trials and tribulations. He is a lot smarter than many think by reading his posts.

Chanas info posted on the FB Anti TH site is accurate, and not made up.

Thanks for the response Puzzler and it makes sense. I guess for me it just bugs the heck out of me that Terri flunked the poly ALLEGEDLY and DeDe refused one ALLEGEDLY. Neither party has been out looking for the cute innocent little 7 year old boy named Kyron THAT WE KNOW OF. Where I get boggled up is that Terri is not a genius and either is DeDe. Terri should have been smart enough not to be sexting to her husbands high school friend right after her step-son went missing. DeDe has had friends posting all over the net on her behalf. Again, not smart at all. DeDe should have come out of the Grand Jury looking shaken and sullen but no, she is a smug bug and it made her look guilty of something. Again, STUPID STUPID STUPID. I truly think that Terri is a spoiled rotten self-centered person. That boggles this up for me too. She could be innocent and is so self-involved that sexting to her after her step-son disappears is a non-issue. After all, she has needs and wants and it is ALL ABOUT HER. I would just like to think that Kaine and Desiree and all of the 40+ law enforecement agencies on this case have not had tunnel vision. Why aren't the parents asking for the perp to return their child? Pleading in the media? Because they believe that there is only one perp, Terri. I don't know. There are so many variables and these players are beyond the norm. I guess anything is possible. I just feel it was Terri and DeDe, at least right now.

Tracy girl ::MonkeyDevil::

In six hours he could have traveled very far. That is a scary thought....

Good word to use:  allegedly....don't see that being used lately.

Goodnight, TG

Thanks Nurse,
I am going to try and put this delicately. Do you believe everything that Tom has posted? I don't want to come out and say it. So, I will put it this way. Have you read all of his posts on facebook and do you believe all of it? It was something that he said about Terri and DeDe and a third person that made sense to me and that is what made me get off of the fence about Terri.

There's a "reason" this case is so well-known and has so many followers:  because it's a total mess and every question has multiple answers.  Pardon my French - but it's all screwed up.  You know the kind of cases: Caylee Anthony, Natalee Holloway.

Sebastian -
What did Tom say about TH, DD and a 3rd person that made you get off the fence about Terri?

I have read EVERYTHING Tom has written. At GLP, FB and one other board. I am curious too, like Puzzler, as to what changed your mind?  I believe Tom believes everything he has written, and that his info comes from sources better than mine.

I don't want to upset Klaas which is why I am trying to tiptoe around this. So, there are three parties. One party tires of the other two because they have gained weight. The other two are feeling rejected and one is feeling especially put upon because that party has to take care of one of the parties children. The two rejected parties plot and plan revenge. Their anger towards said party manifests itself into rediculous proportions. They feed off of each other. One party is not particularly fond of men to begin with and the other has always used them to get what she wants. The rejection is overwhelming. What would be the perfect way to really hurt that third party? It just all sort of fell into place for me after reading this. It would also make sense that there was this bond formed between the two parties. They would protect this bond at all costs. Does any of this make sense? Klaas you can remove this if you want. I am trying to be tactful, but this is truly the reason that I think Terri and DeDe did this.

Nurse,

First, I admit that all this with CBS is still a little confusing to me.

What I'm getting out of it so far is that Chana has outted CBS for her lies about being in contact with LE.

Tom says he and Chana have had many contacts with CBS and that all that information is going to be outted in the next few days.

I get the feeling that it's to let us all know how DD and TH have acted according to CBS and that the goal is to show us all how bad these women have acted about this case.

What I don't get is:  if CBS has been outted for lying about LE,  "why" would you believe anything else she has to say, including "her interputation" of how DD and TH have acted?  TIA

He says.  She says.

Janet

+++++

E-mail: Terri accuses Kaine of being overbearing
Story Published: Nov 15, 2010 at 11:47 PM PST
Story Updated: Nov 16, 2010 at 12:55 PM PST

PORTLAND, Ore. - Two months before Kyron Horman disappeared from his elementary school, his stepmother, Terri Horman, told a friend in at least one e-mail that her husband, Kaine Horman, was overbearing.

In the April 6 e-mail obtained by KATU News, Terri writes the following about Kaine: “I have to ask him before I go out to meet anyone. I have no money because I stayed home with Kyron at birth since his natural mom wouldn't - spent all of my 30k to do so. …

“I am The one who was able to get him glasses (I noticed at 6 months when I was working with him but Kaine wouldn't go in to a doc until he was 2 years - yeah - he's farsighted 750)). He's on me about being fat. Wants me to do another show. Makes me pay $1000 a month to him for bills although it's my child support and unemployment. I do all the yard work, house work, mowing the lawn, cleaning the gutters.”

http://www.katu.com/news/local/108352154.html


Terri Moulton Horman: Kyron Horman's stepmother is a profile in contradictions
Published: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 10:30 PM
Updated: Monday, October 04, 2010, 7:38 AM

No, it's ridiculous.  One of Tom's postings while he's upset and on a roll IMO.  I don't think Tom is a liar.  I do think he's blessed with a very active imagination and that imagination comes flowing out of his fingertips.

No misunderstandings - not Sebastian is ridiculous....Tom's posting is.

(continued)

At the gym, Terri complained to friends that Kaine didn't pay much attention to her and criticized her weight gain after having Kiara. Kaine denies ever complaining about her weight, saying she was the one who brought it up.

"She was always being critical of herself and I got tired of listening to it," he said. "She would complain about it and I would tell her, 'You know that I don't care what you look like. It's who you are that's important. Your weight doesn't have any bearing on how I feel about you.'"

Terri also told friends that Kaine tried to control her spending.

"Controlling with my money — yeah," Kaine said, "because she was spending all of it. She was going out and spending it like water and not checking with me where we should be spending our money."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html

Follow the dots. There was a statement made that "I will not be held hostage by this event", etc etc. Then there were the ALLEGED emails that Terri sent to ??? complaining about Kyron. What else was she complaining about? Was she complaining about something else that was news to Desiree? Something that made Desiree turn? It seems to me that the emails must have alluded to something else besides Terri hating Kyron. Desiree was not happy at all.

Clearify:  Tom's posting is what he "thinks".  He has no proof.  The way I read his posts is that he posts his suspicions as if they're truth.  They're not.  If you think about it, he has no proof of any of this.  Rank speculation.

Then there was Staton's cryptic statements. I would not think that this sort of thing would be new to Staton, but considering a child ended up missing?

A threesome....I don't know that just because DD says it was requested means it was....I mean, after all, I could say I was invited to join Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie...seems ludicrous, doesn't it? But I may have told my manicurist a whole bunch of crazy stories. Maybe she repeats them, cuz it's juicy gossip.
I don't know that I believe DD had any premeditation in this, but IMO, she was involved from the outset at what she may not have fully realized was the plan.

She says

E-mail: Terri accuses Kaine of being overbearing
Story Published: Nov 15, 2010 at 11:47 PM PST
Story Updated: Nov 16, 2010 at 12:55 PM PST

PORTLAND, Ore. - Two months before Kyron Horman disappeared from his elementary school, his stepmother, Terri Horman, told a friend in at least one e-mail that her husband, Kaine Horman, was overbearing.

In the April 6 e-mail obtained by KATU News, Terri writes the following about Kaine: “I have to ask him before I go out to meet anyone. I have no money because I stayed home with Kyron at birth since his natural mom wouldn't - spent all of my 30k to do so. …

“I am The one who was able to get him glasses (I noticed at 6 months when I was working with him but Kaine wouldn't go in to a doc until he was 2 years - yeah - he's farsighted 750)). He's on me about being fat. Wants me to do another show. Makes me pay $1000 a month to him for bills although it's my child support and unemployment. I do all the yard work, house work, mowing the lawn, cleaning the gutters.”

http://www.katu.com/news/local/108352154.html


He Says

Terri Moulton Horman: Kyron Horman's stepmother is a profile in contradictions
Published: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 10:30 PM
Updated: Monday, October 04, 2010, 7:38 AM

At the gym, Terri complained to friends that Kaine didn't pay much attention to her and criticized her weight gain after having Kiara. Kaine denies ever complaining about her weight, saying she was the one who brought it up.

"She was always being critical of herself and I got tired of listening to it," he said. "She would complain about it and I would tell her, 'You know that I don't care what you look like. It's who you are that's important. Your weight doesn't have any bearing on how I feel about you.'"

Terri also told friends that Kaine tried to control her spending.

"Controlling with my money — yeah," Kaine said, "because she was spending all of it. She was going out and spending it like water and not checking with me where we should be spending our money."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html

Okay...you're talking about the emails that Desiree last talked about - the ones that she said showed hatred for Kyron.
I'm assuming they are called Terri's emails because it can be proven they were sent from the computer that Terri uses.
But I've not heard that it's been proven that Terri, herself, typed those emails.

This is true too. However, and I am not trying to be mean, I promise, but DeDe is looking really manly these days. Terri went from looking like a hot mama to not so hot herself. Maybe they did not care about the others appearance. I just think that there is something there between those two. I don't think that it was necessarily planned, it just happened because of a series of events. I think Kyron disappearing was either an accident that Terri convinced DeDe to help cover for or Terri poisoned him. I cannot wrap my head around Terri doing something like that in any physical way. As much as I would love to believe that Kyron is still with us (and he may very well be), but that would involve yet a third party. I just cannot imagine who they would trust to hold onto Kyron while all of this is going on.

Desiree: Terri hated Kyron, blamed him for failing marriage
Posted on November 15, 2010 at 8:10 AM
Updated Monday, Nov 15 at 5:28 PM

MEDFORD, Ore. -- In an exclusive interview on NBC's Today Show, Kyron Horman's mother said she thinks the missing 7-year old's step-mom could have hurt her son "in the worst way."

Desiree Young appeared on Today Monday morning. She talked about explosive emails that police showed her just last Friday. Sources told KGW that the emails were sent from Terri to an extended member of the family in the weeks just before Kyron's disappearance.

"I now believe without a shadow of a doubt that not only is she (Terri) capable of hurting Kyron, but that it's clear she could have hurt him in the worst possible way, " said Young, as she struggled to talk through the tears.

But what were in those emails?

Young said she couldn't go into specifics because of the ongoing investigation. But she didn't hold back about the ugly picture she said the emails painted.

"It's very clear from Terri’s horrible words that she had a severe hatred for Kyron and that she blamed a lot of the marital problems on Kyron," said Young.

Kyron Horman went missing from Skyline Elementary School on June 4th.  While Terri Horman has not been named as a suspect, she has clearly remained the focus of the investigation.

Desiree Young and Kyron's father Kaine Horman have long provided a united front in the search for their son. But on Monday, Desiree indicated she was seriously disappointed with Kaine for failing to share with her information of Terri's alleged issues with alcohol.

More: Kaine fears Kyron saw 'unimaginable horror'

"I just can't stand by and support the choices that he's making. He had several opportunities to let Tony (Desiree's husband) and I know what was going on and he did not, " she said.

"We learned all of this information after the fact and from the media. He had several opportunities to let Tony know, and I know, what was going on, and he did not, she said."

Kaine held a press conference late Monday morning. He said he could not comment specifically on anything Desiree said during the Today Show, because he did not watch the interview. But he did confirm that he got the same information about Terri's emails from police on Friday as Desiree.

When specifically questioned about Terris' drinking, Kaine said it took him a long time to realize the depth of her problem and that his now-estranged wife was in many ways, "a master of deception."

More: Kaine says Terri fooled him, too

In her interview on Today, Young also said that she tried to get custody of Kyron a year before he disappeared, but Kaine would not allow it. Young said Terri even called her on the phone to urge her to take over custody of Kyron because he was so upset.

"He (Kyron) was exhibiting some problems in school, expressing a lot of sadness, and upset at the situation. Kyron on many occasions said he wanted to live with me, " she recalled.

NBC's Meredith Vieira ended the interview by asking Desiree if she still has hope that Kyron is still alive.

"I will until the day I die, " said Young.

More: Divers returned to Sauvie Island waterways last weekend

Kaine's press conference was held at 10:30 a.m., Monday in front of the Wall of Hope created as a show of support from the community for Kyron and his family. Desiree was interviewed live on Today before 5 a.m. from her home in Medford.

http://www.kgw.com/home/Exclusive--Kyron-Hormans-Mom-Talks-About-Disturbing-Emails--108170584.html

 

The photo today of DeDe, she does look manly...mainly she looks bland.  If you look you can see she has on no makeup.  Not even anything on her eyelashes.  No lipstick, not even gloss.  Blah...basically the way I look without makeup.  ::MonkeyTongue::

There "may" be something between the two of them...IDK  From what we've sleuthed, there's not much out there on FB, Twitter, etc. that indicates these two communicated much - an we know Terri loved to use her computer.

Maybe Terri looked frumpy because Kaine wanted her to do another show and she wasn't up for it. 

DeDe, I think she just has a problem with her weight and has had for a long time - didn't we read that her weight yo-yo's?

A third person involved to keep care of Kyron - that would cost money - TH and DD don't have any money...that much we do know.

There could be a third person involved is a different scenario - but IMO not in the Terri/DeDe scenario.  JMO.

Look at the series of events that put Terri where she is today. 1. She complained to everyone about Kaine in person and via emails. 2. She told Desiree that she wanted Kyron to live with her. 3. Terri trades her car for Kaines truck the day that Kyron disappears. 4. Terri has a problem with the date of the doctors appt for Kyron. Was it the 4th or the 11th? 5. Terri goes through her timeline with LE but apparently her cellphone pings on Suavie Island and Terri was not there 6. Terri's cellphone pings and bank information does not match what she tells LE during the lie detector test 7. The man that Terri hired to landscape her yard accuses her of hiring him to murder her husband. 8. Terri's good friend, DeDe cannot account for her time during that fateful day. Even though friends have stated that DeDe never leaves without her cellphone, this day she did.

These must be the most unlucky gals in the world. Either that or they are being framed and I have a really hard time with that.

That brings up something else. Do you believe that all of the money that Terri came into to hire Houze was from her parents? Do you believe there was an anonomous donor and if so, who?

Well, we do see things a little differently.  I do tend to think that Terri is indirectly involved; however, I have a little different take on some of the items you mentioned.

For example:

TH - I do believe she was unhappy and the marriage was failing or failed and she did express herself about her unhappiness. 

Kyron - Janet just posted the article written about Desiree's comments about Terri calling Desiree and asking her to consider taking Kyron back BECAUSE he (Kyron) was so unhappy.  There may have been other times that Terri was not so nice..IDK..but the way Desiree framed this call was that Terri was concerned about Kyron's unhappiness - that he was sad.  I asked on SM the other day "why" was Kyron so sad?

Truck - Terri traded her car for the truck the day before the SF to take the project to school (the Mustang has a small trunk and that project would not have fit in it due to the length IMO).  She also traded the truck the next day to bring the project home.  The teacher wouldn't let the projects be taken dow that morning. Supposedly Terri emailed the teacher to find out when she could pick up the project...my understand was that she wanted to take the project with her when she drove Kyron to meet his mom later that day (Kyron's weekend to be with Desiree)

Dr. Appt. - I don't see it as Terri has a problem with the Dr. appt. date.  According to Terri, the date was the 11th.  I'm sure that's one thing that LE checked out.  However, it's another one of those things we heard up front and we've not been updated since as to what was learned in the investigation.

Cell phone pings - if LE is telling the truth about cell phone pings - how reliable is that seeing that the towers are 5 miles apart?
Saying it's reliable - where was Terri.  Yet again, something we heard up front but that we've not been updated on as to what was learned in the investigation.  December, Stanton is still saying they're working on phone lists.  Surely, they're not STILL working on Terri's list; hopefully, other lists from other people that might render some useful information.  Terri was furious that LE said she didn't pass all the questions.  Why?  Did Terri know she answered the questions correctly?  Is she that big of a liar?

RS - an angry man for reasons we don't yet know, accuses TH of requesting MFH.  He can't prove it, else LE would have never set up a sting operation, which failed.  He said; she said.

DeDe - we heard she left, then later we heard she didn't and that she couldn't hear the call for lunch from where she was working - that there had been a test done of someone yelling from the house and someone at the mailbox area where DeDe was working and that the call from the house couldn't be heard.  However, LE does not confirm or deny this.  So we don't know the "facts".  DeDe says she accounted for her time.  LE has returned all her items to her.  It's others that say DeDe can't account for her time....not DeDe and not LE.

One of the main problems that I see in this case is that certain information came out early on and everyone has taken that as hard cold facts.  Yet the investigation has continued now for 7 months and we the public has not been "updated" on what the investigation has rendered with respect to various little details.  We are sooooo far behind on what LE has found out that we may be going in the wrong direction on many different items.

You may be correct in the way you expressed every comment.  IDK 
I may be correct in the way I expressed every comment. YDK
WDK - that's the problem - that's why I think that I don't want to get bogged down in to emphatic statements - I want LE to tell me where I should be pointing my finger - then - Katie bar the door!

My 2 cents...

I believe that Terri's parents re-financed their home to get enough money to "retain" Houze...as substantial amount: $50-$70 thousand dollars.  The retainer would be substantial enough to cover a good bit of attorney time.  At this point, we don't know if there will be a trial.

I also believe that the reason Terri's dad was at the court house in late October at the hearing in divorce court was in case they needed him to testify.  If you recall, there were two motions.  The first was to abate the hearing of divorce for a while and the judge did abate until Jan. 6.  The second was to find out about the "money" angle as mentioned in the texts with MC.  I think that Terri's dad was there to testify about where the money came from and that it was not a gift to Terri, but that it was money paid directly from the dad to the law firm.  Because the divorce was abated, the motion about the money was also abated and there was no testimony required that day (remember the court got out early - that was because of the abatement and, therefore, the cancellation of the second motion being heard).

For what it is worth, CBS has now posted on the TJ discussion on the Anti Terri page. She has also referred people to one of the detectives at the MCSO. I have a sneaky suspicion that things are coming to a head. I so hope that I am right. Kyron deserves justice!

I completely understand where you are coming from Puzzler as I have gone over each and everyone of these items myself. I guess for NOW anyways, I am going with that old theory, "if it walks like a duck and smells like a duck"......I also want to say that I respect all of your posts and opinions. Even though we may not be on the same page right now, I think you are one smart monkey!

I tend to think that DeDe became a big interest because she was "the one" who stayed with Terri upon request of Terri's mom, because mom and dad had to go back home and they didn't want Terri staying alone.  Because of those days, LE would have a big interest in whether Terri disclosed anything to DeDe or they had emails back an forth (DeDe didn't stay there 24/7), etc.  DeDe could give LE invaluable insight as to Terri's words, moods, behavior, etc. during that time. 

If it turns out that the investigation shows that DeDe was really there on the farm that morning - that she couldn't hear the shout out for lunch from where she was working, that she did talk to one of owners during that time, that she did wave to the vase man during that time, etc., then DeDe is basically a moot point except for what she may have learned during the time spent with Terri.

IDK.  I've only heard the first blush of what happened with DeDe.  I've not heard from LE what investigators gleaned.

I SOOO hope things are coming to a head, too!!!!!!

Now...you say CBS - and Chana outted CBS for lying...Huh?  What's going on?

What hit the hinky meter for me about DeDe was when Kaine acted like he barely knew her yet she had planned DeDe's birthday party? Then DeDe goes and stays with Terri for days on end? I thought that someone was hiding something. Maybe Terri was hiding her friendship with DeDe from Kaine, I don't know. All I know is that something did not feel right with regards to DeDe and her involvement. DeDe not answering her cellphone that day ALLEGEDLY and not taking a lie detector test ALLEGEDLY and coming out of the Grand Jury looking so smug, IN MY OPINION and then hearing that the Grand Jury only wanted to see DeDe ALLEGEDLY. This all just sort of made me suspect DeDe. Again, I keep using ALLEGEDLY because very little in this case has been verified or written in stone and I always welcome all theories.

Edit above to say Terri's

Sebastian - TY - and the feeling is mutual.  It is wonderful to be able to express different opinions and they be considered respectfully.  Thank you.

I do like that walks like a duck saying and have used is many times myself. 

Apparently CBS came in and stated that she is all for Kyron and did not lie to Chana or TJ. It also sounds as if CBS' own family thought she had gone off the deep end by being friendly with TH and DS. CBS did not get into any details of what she told Chana or Tom. Apparently Chana is going to release that info later. From what I can gather, there is a particular supporter of TH that CBS really likes but she knows that coming forward with whatever information she has to offer is going to ruin that friendship. She pretty much told everyone to contact one of the Sheriffs.

My hinky meter is up, too, on Kaine's comment that he barely knew DeDe, yet he called DeDe to plan the birthday party and then we later found out that DeDe had dinner at the Horman's home a few times over the years.  To me that's not a close friendship, but it is an ongoing-friendship.

So far, I haven't thought of DeDe spending the time with Terri after mom and dad had to leave.  Mom and dad did not want Terri by herself and DeDe was the only one not married and without children.  Mom asked DeDe and so DeDe stayed.  At this point, I haven't heard anything other than that to get my hinky meter up about DeDe staying there.

If you know anything more, please fill me in...I think it's obvious by now that I'm open for "further developements".   ::MonkeyTongue::

I should have said "walks like a duck, looks like a duck", LOL! Smells like a duck? Oh geez, I am tired! Night night Puzzler. May tomorrow bring good news about our little Kyron!

FWIW - Tom Jones has already said that all the information they have to share does NOT provide any information on where Kyron is or what happened to him. 

As this goes on, IMO, it's looking more and more like folks inserting themselves into the case and, if so, sad...because LE will have to check it out. 

I just don't get it!

Good night, Sebastian.

Exactly, along with many, many other people. Since I really don't trust people, I find all this back and forth with Tom, and some others to be useless. And again like in other cases, playing games on the back of a missing or deceased child.   ::MonkeyNoNo::

Puzzler, the time and energy LE has to spend on people like that inserting and causing problems, is maddening.  If you know something about a case, go to the police, don't go immediately to your computer and blab away. What does this accomplish?  ::MonkeyNoNo:: ::MonkeyNoNo::

It accomplishes wasting valuable LE time and taxpayer's money to pay LE salaries.  Not only that, but I'm sure LE gets frustrated at having to handle such things.

I don't want to take away the importance that some people do have valuable information to give and should always, always come forth with that information. 

At first with Joy Wray in Caylee's case, a little of it was entertaining and pathetic at the same time, then it got worse in Haleigh's case, and now again.  ::MonkeyNoNo::  I agree, if you have heard or seen something that is valuable go to LE, and maybe your info could help them significantly.

I thinki TJ is really desperate for attention and keeps posting so he can keep on getting all of the sympathy and love that is poured on over there at SoCal's. I mean, people fawn over this guy. Why? Because he defended his cousin for months on end and then suddenly did a 360 based on a hairdresser or whatever? Oh yeah, a nail tech. I mean TJ is the same one who put out those horrible rumors about Kyron and the baby.

I am just not buying into any of these FB pages or secret sites having anything to do with LE's investigation. None of it means anything and the defense could find an equal number of posts and sites that say the opposite. This case is unlike any other I've ever seen and it is really sad if this is the new normal.

yes nurse.  That is true.  And really , all of us on here are inserting ourselves into this case.  Posting opinions on what happened and who did what.

Tom has an actual link to the case in his cousin Dede .  That's a lot more than I can say for myself and lots of people posting on here as far as inserting themselves into this case. 

Chana was friends with TH.  A lot closer to the case that the rest of us. 

If I was in one of those situations, you dang betcha I would be inserting myself into the case for what I believe to be true.  At least I would have more of a basis for my opinions than I do or anyone else has on here.

 ::HelloKitty::

from Janet's link above

"Controlling with my money — yeah," Kaine said, "because she was spending all of it. She was going out and spending it like water and not checking with me where we should be spending our money."

A little different than the focus that has been on Sayer it's his money.

Initially Kaine's reference in the statement was "my money".

Only the fly on the wall knows for certain what went on on behind closed doors in the Horman household regarding so many issues of accusation.

Janet

BUMPED

Discussing and having opinions on cases is one thing, when people are causing trouble and interfering with investigations, lying, attention seekers who just have to insert because their lives are empty, and having cryptic statements and fighting with each other, how does that help anyone? This is happening in so many cases, and one has to wonder where some of these people are posting from, I have a good idea what facility some are posting from.

Kaine was responding to the question of HIS money posted by reporters. Then he said OUR money which appears to me may be the way he looked at it.

Certainly is gives rise to challenge all of the accusation that he thought it was only HIS money.

I still say all of us are inserting ourselves on the net as people all over read this.  We want OUR opinions known, obviously, or we wouldn't post.

We think what we have to say has some merit or we wouldn't say  it.

It isn't the same as  contacting LE for sure.  But nevertheless, people post on all of these crime sites citing their opinions. I am sure that people who are not interested in this activity think that all of us should be put in a nice padded facility.  I am sure they think that all of us should have far better things to do with our time.

I won't argue that some people think we should do other things with our time, and also that cases don't get solved by talking about it.

I think that as long as we are discussing these cases and on the internet, it keeps these tragic stories on peoples minds. The worse possible thing to me is when a family has a loved one that has gone missing and the case has gone cold with LE. Everyday people eventually lose interest in the story and then it is just the family and friends who are left with no resolution and no more attention being paid to the case. Whether we agree with what happened or not, I really feel that we are contributing by discussing all possibilities and keeping these missing loved ones names and faces out there. JMO

Agreed, but I have been basically talking about the ones that cause trouble like Joy Wray, and when the police have to take time to check things out, not just discussing cases. Most people know their boundaries.

 ::HelloKitty::

I so totally agree Sebastian. 

And the salacious details keep people more interested.  Sad, but true.

Think of poor Kayleah Wilson from Colorado whose perp has not been arrested.  That was not that long ago, but I had forgotten her name until it was brought up somehwere.

I bet she is pretty much off of most people's radar screen.

So with all of the craziness around Kyron, he is not forgotten.  I would think that is a good thing.

And I think that Kaine and Desiree feel that Kyron is the most important as well. 

Their dirty laundry is out there, but they keep going for Kyron's sake.  They are out there in the public, dirty laundry be damned.

Hi Norose,
I do not know who Joy Wray is, but if that person is sending LE on a wild goose chase, than that is terrible. I would also like to add that there are those that pretend that they have information and use that information for attention. I have read over and over where people tell Lindsey Baum's mother that they have information and then they will not give it to her. Then there are the pretend psychics that send family members all over the country on bogus preminitions. It is all heartbreaking!

No not this case, she caused a lot of trouble in Caylee Anthony's case, way beyond one's imagination.

I remember when I was cybersleuthing for Amber Dubois and someone referred me to the Doe network. Nothing brings these cases crashing down on you like the Doe network. It was a big horrible slap in the face. Some of the photos are morgue photos. Hundreds of unidentified people. The children are the most heartbreaking. A child goes missing and a body is found and NO ONE REPORTS IT? Thank goodness for DNA and all of the people out there volunteering to help give these unidentified human beings names! Sometimes more time is spent trying to locate a missing pet than a person. Not to take away from pets (I have many and love them all) but I think you know what I mean.

One thing I do not understand about this "new" world we live in is why anyone who might really have info on a serious criminal case would ever think it was a good idea to discuss it on anonymous websites. Or what thrill someone gets by saying they have inside info to a bunch of strangers behind computers.

It is one thing to discuss a case and quite another to force one's way into it. People have talked about murder cases, etc. since the dawn of time.

LE has a whole other ballgame to contend with these days.

IMO it usually hurts everyone.

I had to laugh out loud at your last phrase. LOL

"I have a good idea what facility some are posting from."

This is true bebecat, but the flip side to this is that LE also can glean a whole lot of information with the click of a mouse.

Well we did with Joy. I agree it hurts everyone.

True, but I'm betting most of the time it is just loons with no info. And how many people through the years like to go and admit too a crime they never did?

"I have a good idea what facility some are posting from."
Quit talking about me ! ! !
lol
over and out the door, day pass afternoon.

 ::HelloKitty::

CBS may have info as she knows the step mother of TH's child.  There is background there for sure.

But nothing we are going to be privy to I am sure.  I think CBS lives in or by Roseburg, so I bet she has heard and knows some stuff.  Who knows if it is anything of import though.

::MonkeyHaHa:: You know what I mean, and over and over in case after case.

... or he's trying to discredit people/sites.  That's what I suspect, and it's what I suspected when he started in on No Rose as being Dede's mom.  Just silliness, really. 

That sure could be it, just trying to discredit people/sites. Makes no sense to me at all.

Sheesh this thread had moved fast .. so no time to really catch up right now ... but since Saints are losing and Colts haven't started yet ...

I thought I'd clear a few things up ...

I am DD ... and Her Mother ... and Her Mother's Bestie ...

AND

LUKE ... I AM YOUR FATHER!

(sorry - sometimes every thread needs a little levity)

 ::MonkeyBike::  See ya monks!  Go Colts!   ::MonkeyCheer4::

I feel sorry for LE if they have to read everything on the internet in hopes of some real info, which I doubt very much they would find.

I agree. The Internet is a mixed blessing for LE. The technology has allowed them to find information from suspects' computers. But there are so many blogs, websites, etc. with wrong information out there they have to look at as well.

It's a new world for LE, I suppose.

I gotta say...after checking out some of Chana's posts on the anti-page, and what she has posted so far on her blog, she sincerely gives me a creepy feeling.  She alludes to CBS that she has screen shots of emails and PM's that CBS has sent to other people.  That, along with supposedly having all kinds of stuff on that Danielle Carter.  My God, does she sit there all day and look for incriminating (or hinky) stuff and make & store screen shots? Obsessed, a bit?   If CBS or DC had communicated privately with others, the other people had to have sent screen shots to Chana for her to have access to the info.   Just weird, and the more they post, the weirder it gets.

 ::MonkeyEek::

The Flow of Info?

Flow of info unusual in missing boy's case 
Share By MAXINE BERNSTEIN, The Oregonian
Story Published: Aug 22, 2010 at 5:22 PM PST
Story Updated: Aug 23, 2010 at 6:51 AM PST

Oregon's ethics rules for lawyers prohibit prosecutors from making statements about an investigation if they're likely to be disseminated widely and be prejudicial, meaning they would make it harder for the accused to get a fair trial, Lininger said. But Oregon's ethics rules don't clearly regulate the indirect disclosure of information to the public, via the victim's family, he said.

Frankly, legal observers say, Kyron's parents are making public statements that the police cannot.

Kaine Horman and Desiree Young have been briefed regularly by Multnomah County sheriff's investigators and prosecutors since their son went missing June 4 from Skyline School. And they have shared some of what they've learned in interviews, at news conferences and in written statements.

They made a public plea for Terri Horman to cooperate with investigators, spoke about Terri's polygraph exams and results, and also issued a written statement about Terri Horman's friend DeDe Spicher, saying she had impeded the investigation and urging her to cooperate.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/101271459.html


Briefings

July 15: Kaine Horman Answers Questions From FOX 12
POSTED: 7:23 am PDT July 16, 2010
UPDATED: 7:26 am PDT July 16, 2010

Kaine Horman:  I can say that I get briefed by law enforcement and lawyers once or many times per day. ...

http://www.kptv.com/news/24283158/detail.html
 

Kaine Horman - Prepared Statements - Written Questions

Kyron Horman’s Family Boots WW and The Oregonian from Bizarre News Event
1:04 PM July 1st, 2010
by James Pitkin

The saga of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman got a little more bizarre today at a news conference held this morning by the boy’s family. ....

First came Horman’s “ground rules,” as he described them. No cameras. No recordings. Everything was off the record and couldn’t be reported, unless agreed otherwise. Horman made everyone in the room agree to these rules before proceeding. And so this roomful of reporters consented, in essence, not to be reporters.

Horman then laid out how the meeting would go. They would take questions, make some phone calls (presumably to investigators, to find out what they could say in their answers), then return and make an on-the-record statement. But first, Horman wanted all the reporters he didn’t know to introduce themselves. ....

According to a reporter who stayed, the family went on to lay out more “ground rules” for the future. They said they’d hold these “news conferences” (if you can call them that) twice a week, on Mondays and Thursdays, as time allows.  They would make prepared statements, answer some questions submitted in writing and may also do occasional interviews.

“They want us to cover Kyron, and they’re not going to get neck-deep in gossip and rumors,” the reporter said. ...

At shortly after 12:30, the family emerged from the church and Desiree Young gave a brief statement in which she implored Terri Moulton Horman to cooperate with investigators.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/01/kyron-hormans-family-boots-ww-and-the-oregonian/


The Multnomah County Sheriff's Office - Questions by E-Mail

Sheriff's Office Releases Q&A About Kyron Case
POSTED: 3:46 pm PDT July 23, 2010

On Friday, the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office released a document answering questions submitted by reporters earlier this week.

Spokeswoman Lt. Mary Lindstrand said there were "numerous questions that could not be answered based upon this being an ongoing investigation."

The Q&A is below:

4. Has anyone been ruled out in Kyron’s disappearance? Who?

Sheriff's Office: A number of people have been ruled out; we are unable to discuss the specifics of these individuals

11. Why has the sheriff’s department pulled back so drastically from talking to the media/public about this case?

Sheriff's Office: This is an ongoing criminal investigation, our responsibility is to resolve this case and bring Kyron home. We are not going to release details of our efforts that will breach the integrity of this investigation or potential prosecution at a later date. If we have information that would benefit our investigation, or help in finding Kyron we will release it.

24. Why are you taking questions via email?

Sheriff's Office: This is the most time efficient and cost effective way to provide information to the numerous and various types of media.

25. You have never done this before, why now and why this case?

Sheriff's Office: This is a very large case with enormous media and public interest. This is the most efficient way to address many questions from numerous media outlets. This is a large case and has attracted a lot of media attention and public interest.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24374478/detail.html

Klaas/Mods

Please delete post 176.  I messed up with the highlighting.

Thans

Janet

done MB

 ::HelloKitty::

Chana knows TH and believes that she did something to Kyron.  Seeing how much a lot of us post on here and we don't even know Kyron, I can see where someone who actually knows the people involved would be REALLY involved.

I know that I would be looking to see for whatever I could glean.  Heck, I do it now. 

I an unpatiently anticipating an investigative outcome to the Kyron Horman case ... an investigative outcome that will reveal the truth ... the whole truth.

This wannabe detective will be back later if she survive this afternoon with no broken bones.  Eldest grandsons (11/12) have talked their Mama and Papa into a bike ride on the trail along the banks of the Mighty Muddy Fraser River.  Obviously ... we were not their first choice.  No friends available.  It is a beautiful clear but cold day in the Fraser Valley of British Columbia.

Janet

+++++

June 18, 2010 - Multnomah County Sheriff's Capt. Jason Gates

Investigators say Kyron’s family cooperating as search continues
UPDATE • Sheriff’s office tries to dispel rumors about boy's disappearance
By Jennifer Anderson
The Portland Tribune, Jun 18, 2010, Updated Jun 21, 2010

There was one new piece of information: “Terri is the last-known person to have seen him before he disappeared,” Multnomah County Sheriff’s Capt. Jason Gates said, contrary to previous reports of someone else who might have seen the boy afterward.

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=127687387448812800


Multnomah County Sheriff Dan Staton

Sheriff refocuses Kyron investigation
Posted on September 15, 2010 at 3:13 PM
Updated Thursday, Oct 7 at 8:15 AM

Staton said there had been "significant movements" in the 15-week investigation and there was a more defined scope, allowing them to not be as broad in their efforts. Investigators can now concentrate on their current course to support a theory of what happened to the boy. He said he had seen no evidence that indicated Kyron was not alive.

When asked if people would be shocked to find out what they know, Staton took a long silence.

"I know I'm taking a long pause on that, I have to think through that answer. I think there are things that come out of this investigation that will surprise you, that you'll think about later on when it's over. We have a knowledge of things we don't want to know about ... of things we wish we didn't know," he added.

http://www.kgw.com/news/kyron-horman/Sheriff-No-evidence-Kyron-Horman-is-not-alive-103003704.html

I know she knows TH, but if she has concrete information, which she HAS given to LE from what I understand, the last thing she should be doing is running all over the internet like a one-woman army trying to out everyone.  To me, it makes her lose credibility, which could be important if and when this goes to trial.  She could be damaging the case by trying to be a hero.

 ::HelloKitty::

If she has given info, then the info would have to be checked out.  I imagine the info is not what Chana thinks .  I am sure LE does not care what she thinks. 

Info like the fact that Dede has a relative close to where Kyron went missing would not matter as to who said it, if you get what I am saying.

I bet you are right.

UtOh...busted!!!  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I agree and personally I never put alot weight into LTD results in any case.  There is a reason they are not permissible in the courts.

Janice Cerin Krause
Dec 30, 2010 at 7:47pm, wikt wrote:
I'll give you a few cut 'm copies DIRECTLY from your own posts... but I don't think it is at all necessary to be posting it all for THAT pig & the pig's helpers right now.
*******
Between 10 to 11 she says she was trimming the spent tulips and Daffodils between the green house and the main house, and the yard that surrounds the main house, the property owner at that time came out and asked her not to forget to trim the daffodils by the main gate, she was seen walking towards the gate around 11 by someone who said later she supposedly was leaving the property.
*******
9:15 to 10:30 she was working with a group of people in the green house nursery area.
*******
But around 11:30 she says she had an other conversation with the owner about slugs, a whole bunch of slug sh*t that she had never seen before, and a heard of elk in the lower field.


They are now saying that this Wikt poster is KH?

Personally, I have never read any of those sites..nor do I intend to...they are nothing more then individuals looking for their 15 minutes ..period.

If any of them where in any way credible as insiders with real info, they would not be posting their info on a blog, FB, etc..they would be in suclusion...hoping that whoever they know that perpitrated this was not coming after them next.  Think about this..this is a national case.  Not just local LE but FBI, ICE, ETC are involved.  No one with any real info is going to post it on the internet with an IP that can be traced..not only by LE but the bad guys.

I feel certain Terri is laughing her a$$ at all this as well as DeDe..there is more to that reationship in my mind then what Kaine knew about.

I think that Terri is the mastermind behind this..her motive to get rid of Kaine and the children in one fell swope.  Desiree did not bite at taking Kyron away, yet Terri sent her own son away.  Once Kyron was gone and LE filled Kaine in on the MFH plot..both he and Kiara were gone.  And Miss Terri has made no effort to get Kiara back, nor James.

This is a case you need to read between the lines..and cross out many of them.  There seems to be more fiction then fact presented.  I take for fact anything LE, Kaine or Desiree and Tony say..anything else is mere fiction.

Terri took a role in this..Desiree, Tony and Kaine all agree in that.  The courts have info we don't..and they do not see any reason for Terri to have any contact with her daughter at this point..there is a reason for that.  This is not LE, the FBI, ICE and the Oregon courts bashing Terri.

 This is the case of a missing child in Terri's care, that went missing from his school while the school thought he was with her at a doctors appt.  That is what it boils down to..he went missing when the school thought he was with his stepmom..she wants everyone to believe otherwise..make your decision from that point.  Personally..I think she was hoping to be rid of Kaine, Kiara and James..Kyron was gone in 60 seconds in her mind..the rest would follow.  And with the right attorney..she could sue the school.  She never for one minute thought anyone would accuse her...but she was wrong.

 ::HelloKitty::

I like your analysis DD

Just one question, how could she sue the school???? She's the stepmother, so if anyone could sue it would be KH and DY, Terri wouldn't get a dime from a suit........and honestly she'd have to know she'd be the number one defacto suspect /POI whether LE states it or not, everyone know LE looks at parents first, especially step parents , they work from the inside out so I'm not seeing how she wouldn't expect to be looked at nor how she'd get a dime.

She may have thought she was covered by having the receipt showing she'd left without Kyron...therefore in her mind she would not be the focus of the investigation.  In her mind, maybe, she thought everyone would think if she left alone, it had to be somone else.  Maybe she didn't realize everyone would look beyond the time she was at FM and she then had to scramble to say after that she was driving around.  I honestly think she thinks she is so smart she thought she had it all figured out.  And if Kaine had sued the school while they were married, wouldn't she stand to benefit from that?  The divorce/sexting stuff came after she became the focus of the investigation.

 ::HelloKitty::

Tony seemed to think that TH didn't get it or like it that they looked at the family first.  It could be that she thought that she had everything covered really well.

If she stayed with KH, she would be able to be in the lawsuit and get the money that way.  I don't think divorce was on her screen then.  Maybe she thought that the missing child would bring them clser together since they had the baby as well to watch out for together.

In August, 2010 ... DeDe Spicher's attorney Chad Stavley appears to be privy to some info that reveals Terri involvement in the disappearance of Kyron.  However ... almost five months later Terri has not been detained ... Terri has not been declared a person of interest.  Why?

Janet

+++++++


Harris Faulkner

Police Bump Up Search for Kyron Horman
Harris Faulkner 9:48 am on August 9, 2010
 
Just got off the phone with Multnomah Sheriff’s Department and they confirmed a “tip” led them to bump up the search again for 7-year-old Kyron Horman. Kinda knew that but, wanted to see if they would comment about reports that the “tip” came from family friend, DeDe Spicher. They wouldn’t tell me if that’s true. But, Spicher told a Grand Jury on Friday that she, another girlfriend and Kyron’s stepmom, Terri Horman, each bought an untraceable cell phone the day the little boy vanished. The cops wouldn’t tell me if they’re looking for those phones in the big renewed search. This case is intense. Where is that child?!

http://www.foxnewsinsider.com/2010/08/09/police-bump-up-search-for-kyron-horman/


DeDe Spicher's Attorney

Attorney: Spicher shared Terri Horman emails, texts with cops
Posted on July 26, 2010 at 11:09 AM
Updated Wednesday, Aug 18 at 7:05 AM

PORTLAND, Ore. -- DeDe Spicher, identified as a close friend of Terri Moulton-Horman, was called before a grand jury Monday in Multnomah County as part of the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of her step-son Kyron Horman.

Spicher's attorney told NBC Dateline that he would be "surprised" if Terri was not arrested in the case.

Grand jury proceedings are not open to the public or the media. However, Spicer's attorney did confirm that his client was subpoenaed to testify but did not give any testimony under oath Monday. He said she could be called back to testify in the future.

Reliable sources told KGW that Spicher was doing gardening work not far from the Horman family home in Northwest Portland on the day Terri's step-son, 7-year-old Kyron Horman, disappeared from Skyline Elementary. Spicher reportedly left where she was working at 11:15 a.m. on June 4 and returned around 1 p.m.

However Spicher's attorney Chad Stavley said DeDe was gardening on the day Kyron disappeared and never left the area.

"She's getting asked questions, she's getting treated frankly, like she's a suspect, when she's not," he said.

Stavley also told NBC Dateline Monday that Spicher had been, and planned to keep, cooperating with investigators. He said that she had already shared text messages and emails sent to and from Terri with detectives.

"I would be, frankly, surprised if Terri Horman did not eventually face charges in this case," Stavley said. "I'd be surprised if the indictment didn't come down."

The person who owns the house where Spicher lives, who was cooperating with investigators, told police that she called Spicher on her cell phone but she didn't answer, the source told KGW. A person who was working with Spicher, who was also cooperating with investigators, told them of trying to unsuccessfully find Spicher. Both people have told investigators they have no idea where Spicher was during that period of time.

Sources told KGW that police searched Spicher's home last week. Spicher has known Terri and Kaine for about seven years. Stavley said that Spicher even moved into the Horman home for a time after Kyron went missing.

Last week, Kyron's parents, Kaine Horman and Desiree Young issued a public plea for Spicher to cooperate with police, threatening a possible civil suit if she refused.

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004-kyron-horman-missing-portland.html

LOL @ a vision of the facility posters

All the above maddens me too, especially if it's wasting LE's time for fun. I do like hearing differing opinions though.

I like hearing differing opinions too, Shy...but if all of this posturing and crap out there has impeded this investigation in any way, preventing the discovery or recovery of Kyron, that is just SO wrong!

Wouldn't there have been a surveillance video in FM when she was supposed to get the receipt?

I think that the marriage has been on the rocks for a while. Terri sort of got it backwards in my opinion. You would think that the would have kidnapped Kyron first and then sued the school and then hired a hitman for Kaine. Terri also was supposedly the big CSI fan. She must not have been paying attention when watching these episodes. As I have stated many times, I think Terri is involved but I just cannot believe her stupidity. That has what made me go on and off the fence so many times in the past. It is almost as if she has set her own self up for this.

I'm really not sure how it would impede the investigation unless there are people that are holding back information that could help the investigation. 

In almost every case these days there are thousands of people inserting themselves and sometimes way beyond normal interest in a case.  In the Caylee Anthony case people were swearing they saw Caylee alive after she was reported missing.  Someone calling another person out on a message board or website should not impede the investigation.  For the most part, if someone is hiding something, getting them to talk would help the investigation (if that is what they are trying to do) not hurt it.

We know they requested surveillance video, but we don't know if TH was seen on the tape or not, and even if she was seen on the tape, it has been suggested she had help and Kyron may not have left with TH, even if TH was indirectly involved...whew!

DeDe's attorney's words about DeDe not having to give any testimony "under oath".  It's semantics...we "know why" DeDe didn't have to give any testimony under oath.  It was because the interview was "video taped".  Still she was asked only a few questions, mainly would she be willing to come back if they had further question after reviewing her phone records, computer records, etc. 

So, her phone, iPod, computer, etc. have been returned.  If the GJ didn't call her back, then it would seem reasonable to assume that they had no further questions of her...yet...they still could call her back.

We know that LE continuted to interview her friends and even performed a surprise  look around where she's living with her mom and dad...there was no warrant...LE from Multnomah showed up upexpectedly and asked if they could look around and permission was granted.

So, at this point, they don't have any more questions....GJ could still call her back at any time though.  I'm thinking that might happen with the task force in place and them crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's, there just might be a few last questions.

 ::HelloKitty::

Sebastian, I think TH did have it right.  She tried the MFH with Kaine, but that didn't work out for whatever reason.

So she had to go to plan B.

Really, if you were doing MFH, don't you think that you would be worried that your killer might turn on you next?

Imagine at some point either she would stay with Kaine, or they would get divorced and she would get a nice pile of money . 

Could it be....that what we've heard as DeDe seen leaving....was actually DeDe going to the main gate to do what the property owner asked her to do?

Hey Puzzler,
Do you recall the time frame that is in question regarding DeDe's where abouts?

If Kyron had been captured on surveilliance inside the FM or Albertsons ... Terri would have been implicated in the disappearance of her stepson long ago.  However ... Terri had not been deemed even a person of interest in the Kyron Horman case.

Janet

++++++

Surveillance collected for Kyron case
Story Published: Jul 9, 2010 at 6:35 PM PST
Story Updated: Jul 10, 2010 at 3:03 PM PST

PORTLAND, Ore. - Investigators have collected surveillance videos from local grocery stores in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, sources said.

The corporate offices of Fred Meyer and Albertsons both confirmed to KATU News on Friday they are cooperating with investigators in the Kyron Horman case.

Officials with Albertsons said they’ve turned over surveillance video from their store on Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway on June 4, the day the Skyline School second-grader disappeared.

Fred Meyer officials, however, will only say they are working with detectives regarding at least one store. They said if they turned over surveillance video, it would be up to investigators to disclose it to the media; however, sources said that the Sunset Fred Meyer off Highway 26 in Hillsboro has submitted video for investigators to review.

That store is five miles from Skyline School. The Albertsons, depending on the route taken, is anywhere from 14 to 16 miles from the school.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/98150609.html

FYI - While a frustrating person to deal with, Joy Wray is actually a person who's been Baker Acted in Florida numerous times and really has some problems.  Unfortunately, some of the problems she causes are inflicting herself into the Caylee Anthony case and unnecessarily taking up a lot of LE's time.

Sheriff's Office Releases Q&A About Kyron Case
POSTED: 3:46 pm PDT July 23, 2010

5. Video has been requested from local businesses as well as from members of the media – Has any footage been recovered and if so did it yield anything that will be helpful to the case?

Sheriff's Office: We have recovered many photos and video footage. We will not be able to comment on their evidentiary value. We continue to ask individuals in possession of photos and video surrounding the Skyline Grade School event on June 4, 2010 to provide that to investigators. We continue to ask the media for their assistance and support in this investigation. The photos and videos that have been provided by the media have helped further the investigation process.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24374478/detail.html

This is an interesting article. It talks about notable murder cases where there was not a body.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,438661,00.html

Like I said earlier, Tom Jones has already said that all of this stuff does not tell us where Kyron is or what happened to him....so...what's this all about?  It's certainly not about Kyron.

Is it simply women outting each other for supposed "lies" and seeing how nasty they can treat each over?  Is it that people get a false bravado because they're on the internet and not face-to-face? 

It all seems seems degrading to me...not the person they're attacking...but the person who's doing the frenetic attacking - that person seems to be degrading themselves on the world wide web. 

Kyron Horman search may have suffered from confluence of delays
Published: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 9:02 PM     Updated: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:46 PM
 By Noelle Crombie, The Oregonian
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View full sizeFamily photoKyron Horman smiles in front of his science fair project about red-eyed tree frogs the same morning he disappeared from Skyline School.
On the morning Kyron Horman was last seen, he was Skyline School's resident expert on red-eyed tree frogs at the school science fair. Then the second-grader vanished and was gone nearly seven hours before anyone noticed.

Kyron's stepmother met the school bus about 3:30 p.m., but the bespectacled 7-year-old wasn't aboard. She called Skyline, and the school secretary called 9-1-1. During the next 4 1/2 hours, authorities mobilized a full-scale search effort involving federal agents who specialize in child-abduction cases.

But by then it was almost nightfall. Time had long become the enemy.


» Timeline
» Stories
» Photos
» Videos"This investigation really got going eight to 12 hours after it should have," said Clint Van Zandt, a former FBI profiler and Virginia-based security consultant. "Whatever happened to this little boy, by the time authorities really geared up, they were 12 hours behind the power curve.

"That is a long time to be behind in a case like this."

A confluence of factors meant searchers lost key hours:

Officials at Skyline School didn't notify the boy's parents after realizing he was absent. The initial report was given the "lowest priority" rating by emergency dispatchers. Rush-hour traffic Friday evening delayed arrival of trained searchers, who gathered first at the Multnomah County sheriff's patrol office in outer Northeast Portland, then traveled to the site. Getting to the school and Kyron's neighborhood, in the rural northwestern corner of Multnomah County, took more than a half-hour.

And though news organizations reported late Friday that Kyron was missing, authorities didn't issue a full news release until the following morning.

Once notified, Multnomah County authorities responded swiftly, but crucial hours already had been lost, Sheriff Dan Staton said.

"This is what is hugely disturbing to me," he told The Oregonian on Saturday. "The fact that you had a child in school and the last time the child was seen is at 9 in the morning -- there are concerns about that lag time. If the child had walked away from the school, the likelihood of finding him under those circumstances would have been extremely high.

"After five hours," the sheriff said, "you know as well as I do how far a child could walk on a roadway."

Across the country each year, 115 children on average are abducted by strangers or an acquaintance, according to a 2008 report by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Most are found within hours. But a quarter of abducted children are killed. The center's statistics showed that 76 percent of those children die within three hours of being kidnapped.

Though rare, all missing children investigations share an essential element: time.

"Valuable hours were lost because, frankly, no one knew where (Kyron) was," said Bob Lowery, a former homicide commander in the Midwest and executive director of the missing children division of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Added Van Zandt: "As time goes on, it becomes more critical and the potential for some harm to come to this child is greater."

 
Skyline School officials first realized there was a problem after the school day had ended. Kyron's stepmother, Terri Moulton Horman, said the boy wasn't on the school bus.

School secretary Susan Hall called 9-1-1 at 3:56 p.m. That triggered a page to Portland Public Schools security.

At some point that day, Kyron's teacher had marked the boy absent -- district officials refuse to say when -- but that didn't prompt a call home because Skyline School lacked an automatic notification policy. That has since changed.

Staton said dispatchers at the Bureau of Emergency Communications classified the call from Skyline as "lowest priority." Dispatchers generally classify calls based on who's calling, what information is provided and whether there is an indication of danger or a medical issue.

Within minutes, Portland police and Multnomah County sheriff's deputies were dispatched. About a half-hour passed before they pulled up to the school and the Horman home, about 2 1/2 miles from the school.

The official search for Kyron began at 4:33 p.m.

Among those responding were a sergeant, a police dog and about eight Portland officers. They searched around the school, hoping the shy boy had gone home with someone he knew. Staton said that even before certified searchers arrived, police had searched the school, many of the main roads and the boy's home.

On any given day, kids don't ride the bus when they should, prompting parents to call their school, said Matt Shelby, spokesman for the school district.

"Nine times out of 10 they're found within the hour or so," he said.

But police found no trace of Kyron.

Shortly after 5:30 p.m., school authorities alerted parents through an automated phone message.

"Kyron Horman did not arrive at home today," the message said.

The alert was intended for Skyline parents, but it went out to other parents, too. Anyone who'd seen Kyron was asked to call police.

"The only thing we knew is that he was missing," Shelby said.

The sheriff's office began calling trained searchers at 5:30 p.m. The first search teams arrived at 8:09 p.m. The search-and-rescue coordinator, Deputy Mark Herron, arrived at 8:25 p.m.

Among those who got a call that night was sheriff's Sgt. Travis Gullberg, another search-and-rescue coordinator.

"We've got a scenario developing," Detective Sgt. Lee Gosson told him.

Sometime between 7 and 7:45 p.m., Staton personally called the FBI. He said the circumstances -- Kyron disappeared from school on a busy morning -- prompted him to ask for help from the feds.

"I wanted them involved because the last time this child was seen was inside a school," he said. "This was not a child walking away from their home or getting lost in the woods. This is a child who got lost inside a school with faculty there. That was the last time the child was seen."

The bureau pulled in agents from across the country. Two who would help with the technical aspect arrived that night. Another set of agents with expertise in missing-child cases landed at midnight. More joined Saturday morning.

By then, Kyron had been gone for 24 hours.

 
Though news organizations heard reports about a possible missing child over their police scanners and began trying to sort out what was going on, official public notification of the media was slow and sketchy.

Portland school officials didn't issue a news release that afternoon, and the public information officer for the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office only learned of the investigation some time that night between 7 and 7:15.

About an hour later, a sheriff's official met some reporters at Skyline School and released a photo of the boy, but the agency issued its first official news release on the investigation about 9 a.m. the next day.

Staton said his agency responded quickly to Kyron's disappearance.

"For the location of the school," Staton said, "this is a really good response time, especially when you are talking about a Friday, the time of day, rushing through traffic to get out here."

The FBI often volunteers personnel when children vanish. But the bureau does not consider itself a first responder in such emergencies, FBI spokeswoman Beth Anne Steele said.

"Relatively speaking," she said, "we were notified very early in the process."

It's been more than a week since Kyron's stepmother saw him walk toward his classroom in Skyline School after the pair toured the school science fair and admired Kyron's tree frog project. Investigators now characterize Kyron as a missing and endangered child.

The investigation, in its 10th day today, is one of the largest ever overseen by the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office and has included more than 500 searchers.

But Van Zandt said the likelihood that Kyron wandered out of the school, got hurt and is awaiting rescue is fading.

"The chances are getting slimmer and slimmer that that is what happened to him and that he could ... survive," Van Zandt said.

The moment an adult took note that Kyron wasn't at school Friday, an effort to find him should have been set in motion, Van Zandt said.

"And within an hour instead of 12 hours," he said, "this case would have been moving."

-- Noelle Crombie

-- Kimberly A.C. Wilson, Bryan Denson and Stuart Tomlinson contributed to this report. 

 
Related topics: kyron horman, multnomah county, portland, skyline school, terri moulton horman


Sometimes when we go back and read old articles again, things jump out at you that you missed the first time.

I think a lot of this has to do with perception. From everything that I have gathered from their postings, Chana was a good friend of TH's and supported her. She has now disassociated herself from Terri because she feels Terri is guilty of harming Kyron. Perhaps LE is preparing to arrest Terri. Maybe Terri's friends are running for cover. If Terri is arrested and most importantly if Terri is convicted, who would want the world to know that they continued to support this type of a person? That could haunt them for a long long time!

Anything said here can be read by anyone and it is.
When I get really bored, I look at the site meter and take a look at who is on and viewing from the area of Roseberg, Portland and surrounding areas. What they looked at, etc.
Today, we have had Roseberg and Tulatin ? Looking. Guess they are bored also or are very interested in the drama about DeDe today.

 ::HelloKitty::

Kaine Horman Reality Show
Name of poster has been removed. Make of this what you wish!

"This page disgusts me -- this will be my first and last post here. But I want to set something straight. I used to be an admin at THSP. I have since closed the account I used to p...ost with because of the LOONS associated with this case. The admins at THSP trusted each other. We were FB friends and posted on each other's pages. We supported TH for different reasons - for me, it was because I felt Kyron could have been one of my children. I feared for him. I identified with his plight. I felt TH had a bum rap in the public eye and I supported her right to the presumption of innocence, if nothing else. I have always said I don't know if she did anything. I don't think she did, but I DON'T KNOW. I still don't know to this day. I do not believe DS had anything to do with the case. I still don't. After "Chana" started posting stuff on another page, it became quite apparent that a certain THSP admin-- the same one playing Chana for a fool NOW -- was feeding private info to those who did not support #1. It then also became apparent that this same person - who had claimed to have known Terri's family prior to the case - in fact did NOT know any of the case player prior to the case, and in fact, PURPOSELY inserted themselves into the case for attention. At that point I realized how unstable this person truly was. This person had contacted these strangers WHOSE CHILD HAD BEEN DISAPPEARED and tried to make herself part of the case. I was DISGUSTED BEYOND BELIEF. I had trusted this person. I considered this person a friend, at least on a superficial level. I immediately unfriended this person, left THSP and PMed those remaining and told them why I was leaving. Just prior to this, this same person had invited Sally Salamander into THSP. I was beyond disgusted. I wanted NOTHING to do with her or her blog -- it is complete libel and it makes me SICK. So I left and I never looked back. I remained friends with 2 of the THSP admins. The person who is currently playing Chana is a pathological liar. She was scorned by TH supporters (because we figured out she was a loon) so went running to whomever it was who would listen to her next. She totally and completely supported TH and DS. She loved the attention she got from DS and was giddy when she visited TH -- until TH's family caught on, and rejected her. Then she couldn't figure out why she had been rejected. It makes me freaking SICK that she is now trying to say that she did this as some "investigation". Bull-f-ing-SH!T!! She was a case whore - her husband knew it and he'd get pissed at her for pulling this cr@p. She has no damning information about anyone. She merely wants the attention. Bottom line -- there are people associated with this case that are f-ING LOONS. Do NOT believe anything you read. As for other people from THSP -- SL had good intentions, and I think she still does. Her nephew really did die in a horrific situation involving a school. But I disagree with the way THSP changed and the fact that SS was embraced. SL knows this. MB, from the beginning, started THSP with good intentions. She felt TH was being wrongly accused in the media, and she identified with her in some regards. MB's life got busy and she pretty much disappeared. Some people think she is Chana. I do not -- I know too much about her personal life to believe she would have time to do what Chana does. Danielle is a real person, separate from Eric, Windy, SL and MB, all of whom are real people. Danielle, to my knowledge, is not TH. I do not know if TH posts on FB -- I have no clue. I do know MB and SL are not TH -- I have seen evidence to prove they are not. Seriously people -- STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTERS. This ceased being about Kyron long, long ago. I left these pages when it became apparent to me that it was more about "us" vs "them" and not about Kyron. But the truth is, I'm not about to sit back and let some f-ING LOON try to pull one over on people who truly do care about Kyron. She is a LIAR Plain and simple. PLEASE -- ALL OF YOU -- Go back to SUPPORTING KYRON. This is all so senseless. Close these insane pages. Disassociate yourself from people who have agendas other than looking for this poor little boy. Don't ever forget, your child could be next. Think about that. I am not religious -- but, "There but for the Grace of God..." I will not post again -- here or elsewhere. I was done with this case a couple months ago -- completely DONE. I hope Kyron is found so that an end can come to this insanity. My heart breaks for that poor little boy..."See More
38 minutes ago ·
   

Sebastian - TY

Somehow, I've missed reading this article before now.  It spells it out, doesn't it?

HOW can a "missing child" be given the "lowest priority" rating by dispatchers?  I do not get this!.

No sense of urgency when a 7 y.o. has gone missing.

And this article spells it out...district officials refuse to say "when" Kyron was marked absent.

Within an hour they should have been searching for Kyron.

And...plain and simple...the boy "went missing inside the school with faculty ther". 

Yep...that's a fact.

Hi Kat_Gram!
What site meter??????

Hellokitty - please post the link to that post.

Sebastian - KG has signed off - I'll answer your question.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page - all the way down.
In the middle, there's a box with green letters: site meter
Click on the box.
All kinds of information about visitors to SM.
On the left - link to "by location" - click on that
Also on the left - link to "map" - interesting, too, for a quick look

It makes me CRAZY that this school has been given a pass! Regardless of who took Kyron (and you know I think Terri is involved), this school failed Kyron terribly! I also want to add that for a while I got really caught up in the unfair reporting on this case. I also got caught up in my dislike for one of Kyron's biological parents. I hated that everything was so one sided in this case when I know that there are always two sides to every story. But what I had to finally do is put aside all of my feelings for all of the players. The bottom line is this. If you had a cute innocent 7 year old little boy named Kyron and he disappeared and the last person ALLEGEDLY to see him walked out on her third poly and got an attorney and pleaded the 5th, wouldn't you be going completely insane about 7 months ago???? It makes me sick that Terri did not take as many poly's as were necessary. It makes me sick that she lawyered up and refuses to talk. I also think that all of the back and forth on the anti page and the reality show page is rude and childish, BUT if it can help bring ANY information to the table, than it is worth it. If Kyron was my little boy, I would have been in jail long ago for going after Terri with everything that I had until she answered each and every question to my satisfaction. Throw nanners, but this is the way that I feel!

Wow! Very handy Puzzler, very handy! I told you that you are a smart monkey! I have been posting her for over a year and never even knew that existed! ::MonkeyHaHa::

 ::HelloKitty::

The link to the info I posted about the former admin of the THSP page above is this

http://socallinkss2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=kyronhormandiscussion&action=display&thread=40&page=45

It actually comes from the Kaine Horman Reality Show page, but I do not know that page.  I am not interested in that page.

That site meter is a trip! Someone was visiting from Tasmania!

Thanks.  I checked the Kaine Horman Reality Show and it's not there so it may have been deleted now. 

Oh, that is my friend from Tasmania (he's a devil)  ::MonkeyDevil::  j/k

I think only one person knows where Kyron is and that will be the biggest frustration in the end...no matter what happens in court, that we may never know where he is or what really happened. Most cases without a body have some sort of a possible crime scene, blood, something. And kidnapping will be a stretch when Kyron was in a busy school as far as TH knew, according to her.It may come down to if they can prove motive as everyone had means and opportunity.

As far as Skyline-if they never called home when a child was absent, they were never going to be of any help here.

Lol Klaas! I cannot believe how many visitors you get a day!

Keep in mind the site meter shows visitors to all the SM sites (sm.com main blog, MissingExpoited, Radio, Blink and the forum) but yeah, lot's of traffic/visitors.

Question: Will you consider it to be justice if someone is convicted in Kyron's case but he is never found?

I don't mean to dwell on this, but this is really what I fear might happen. I can't see LE never charging anyone, it is too big of a case. And juries do not like to acquit in cases involving children, if they can help it. I can honestly see Terri being convicted of murder in a year or two, even if Kyron is not found. I don't think she would ever take a plea to tell where he is.

I don't think I would ever feel sure she was guilty and that Kyron was dead, if that were to happen.

Hi Bebecat,
From everthing that I have read and heard, it is really hard to try a case without a body and win. Add to that the fact that Terri has one of the best lawyers in the state of Oregon. If she is found guilty, it is my opinion that she will end up being behind bars where she belongs. They may offer her a lighter sentence if she confesses to Kyron's whereabouts. Personally, I do not understand why they are not searching CONSTANTLY. I understand that it is expensive and involves lots of manpower, but there are also volunteer search and recovery people. If they do not like Harry Oaks, there are plenty of others out there. It almost makes you wonder if they think that Kyron is still alive? I just don't understand why they are not spending much more time searching for Kyron, especially if they want to bring this case to trial and win.

I think they are at a loss as to where to search. I don't know how much more of SI there is to search, even that area is overwhelming on its own. And if he was put into the water out there...

Cases without bodies are being tried more often, but this one is just so strange. No one has ever indicated he was dead, LE won't even consider it aloud, and that will make it harder. and with a child, there is no ceasing of bank and phone activity that is often vital with adult cases. So I can't imagine what would be the thing, short of finding Kyron, that wouldmake LE decide to proceed anyway? I can't imagine.

I guess it would depend on how much circumstantial evidence that they may have that they have been keeping close to the vest. Desiree and Kaine have been adamant all along that Terri is the one. I have never heard them even suggest that it could be anyone else. In the beginning I thought that maybe they had tunnel vision for reasons unknown. After all of this time and they still do not have their son back, you would think that they would have exhausted any other possible avenues. The fact that they are not alluding to any other avenues makes me think that there may be more to the story that we are not privy too. I certainly hope that is the case. The thought of Kyron not being found is unbearable. The thought of the perp getting away with it is even more unthinkable.

I still think it is possible Kyron found himself alone and a pedo took him. That side door by the soccer field could have been a perfect place to just go poof. Or be taken out the back door through the boiler room. Kids have been taken by pedo's before, it will not be something new.
I am still on this darn fence.  ::MonkeyNoNo:: I just really don't want to find myself bashing Terri and it turns out she didn't do it. I would rather be wrong, then know I accused an innocent person of the worse possible thing ever. I just don't think my conscience will allow me to do that. I have to wait for LE to arrest someone or come out with something.

BBM

LE knows Terri sent the texts. Her lawyers are not disputing that she sent them. That means it's pretty iron-clad evidence, especially with the photos, and LE can allow Kaine to use them in his divorce case because Terri can't dispute them being hers. What she didn't like was the fact that Kaine's divorce lawyer used them to show what Terri was doing while her daughter was taken away, her husband left her, and her stepson was missing.The real Terri was exposed....in more ways than one.

She was after MC because she needed a replacement for Kaine's financial support. Terri wanted MC to continue to fund her lifestyle. She put him on the fast track plan.

 ::HelloKitty::

On this site, it exposes a person who used her website to make money off of Kyron.  So despicable.

http://thetruthwillsaveyoursoul-truthteller.blogspot.com/2010/12/ask-and-ye-shall-receive.html

I am sure the LE knows whether TH was actually in FM when she said she was. They have also said her bank records do not match up. I think they would have to have more than just the fact she wasn't where she said she was to be made a person of interest or be arrested. But it would explain why she is high on their suspicious list.

I feel the exact same way, did that once and the person was not guilty of anything. I also need to wait, I want no part of ruining someone's life anymore who may not be guilty. In the end one thing matters the person or people involved get charged and Kyron gets justice.

Considering in October, 2010 Terri's attorney did not deny that the sexting took place ... only objected to the exposure ... I tend to believe Terri may be the author.  No excuses but ... she could have been drunk when the contents of the sexting is considered.

Janet

+++++++


Kaine Horman trying to destroy estranged wife Terri Horman with 'vicious' court filing, her lawyers say
Published: Friday, October 29, 2010, 7:27 PM
Updated: Saturday, October 30, 2010, 10:54 AM

Terri Moulton Horman's lawyers say Kaine Horman is focused on his estranged wife's "destruction," and his most recent affidavit challenging her right to supervised parenting time with their daughter was intended only to "inflame and poison public opinion."

Kaine Horman's affidavit filed four days earlier is "vicious in its tone and content" and clearly meant to vilify Terri Horman in an effort to "completely destroy and sabotage" any relationship she might have with the couple's 2-year-old daughter, her divorce attorney Peter Bunch and criminal defense attorney Stephen Houze said in a motion Friday.

Kaine Horman called his wife an "emotionally disturbed individual" in the affidavit, referred to her failed polygraph tests and claimed alcohol abuse impaired her functioning since the birth of their daughter, Kiara. He said he believes Terri Horman was involved in his son's June 4 disappearance and wondered if Kiara witnessed "some unimaginable act of horror" that day.

He also attached 17 pages of graphic text messages from late June to early July between Terri Horman and a high school friend of his, Michael Cook.

<snipped>

Terri Horman's lawyers said the text messages between their client and Cook aren't relevant to whether Terri Horman should be allowed to see her daughter, were "gratuitously included" by Kaine Horman and his lawyer and violate state civil procedure.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/kaine_horman_trying_to_destroy.html

There was a witness who did not conform to Kaine and LE's request not to talk to the media and ... that witness confirms that Terri was in FM with Kiara on the morning her stepson went missing.

Janet

+++++++

Grand jury witness shares her encounter with Terri Horman
Last Update: 10:48 am

On June 4, between 9:30-10 a.m., Andrea Leckey ran into Horman at the Fred Meyer along Walker Road in Beaverton, sharing an encounter that was the longest they had ever had.

During the conversation, Leckey said Terri mentioned just coming from the science fair at Skyline School, even showing her the now well-known picture of her step-son, Kyron.

"The only thing that I think was significant about that time is that she showed me a picture of Kyron next to his project," said Leckey.

"I think the thing that seems odd about it perhaps is that we were just passing each other by and in a few seconds, with her daughter being sick in her arms, made a point to show me the picture."

Leckey formerly worked as a manager at Horman's gym where they spoke to each other frequently, but always briefly, too.

At the time of their Fred Meyer encounter, Leckey said she was being polite and making chit-chat because she knew Horman's daughter was not feeling well.

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news

I do not understand what is going over on Blink's site at all. They mostly seem convinced that not only the glasses, but the clothing shown by LE back in June, were all found and are Kyron's actual items. I think this is completely wrong and untrue. Why would LE be showing items already found and asking people to look out for them? They have said repeatedly that they have nothing to indicate what happened to Kyron and if they had recovered all of his clothes and his glasses, I would think that would tell them something or other. And what would be the chances they would find everything? In fact, I don't understand the whole "suspect zero" thing going on over at that site and the insistence that Kyron was seen leaving with someone.

No Rose

There was a time I felt justified in my suspicions regarding Terri Horman.  I believed media "reliable sources" that an arrest was imminent following the restraint order preventing Terri from contact with Kiara and ... following Terri's eviction from the family home.  After all ... these two events were based on Kaine being told by LE that there was probably cause that Terri was involved in a MFH plot and ... she was a participant in the disappearance of Kyron.

Six month's later and no arrest ... I am on the fence.  My speculations encompassing the disappearance of Kyron are branching out to other avenues of consideration.

Janet

++++++


Kaine Horman asks judge to make Terri Moulton Horman move out of his house
Published: Thursday, July 08, 2010, 12:06 PM
Updated: Thursday, July 08, 2010, 6:43 PM

Multnomah County judge today unsealed the petition for the restraining order which Kaine Horman obtained on June 28, two days after investigators informed him that his wife had offered to pay a landscaper to kill him months before his son's disappearance.

"I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010. I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me,'' Kaine Horman wrote in his petition. "The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/judge_releases_restraining_ord.html


+++++++ 

You are not alone.  All I know is something never felt right to me from the beginning, and that is why I'm waiting to see what unfolds. A lot of the time, right away I get a gut feeling on who committed a crime, right now I go back and forth.

 ::dogwag:: Scooch over, ITA. I thought in the beginning it was either TH or a pedophile and with the evidence we KNOW I couldn't convict. That being said there could be far more known that they could present a jury that could change my mind, and while I know of ~300 cases where they were succesfully prosecuted without a body, this one has never felt right to me from the beginning. There are zones around schools where SO's can't live for a good reason, it is equivalent to a hunting ground as are parks and places kids congregate so I can see a perp who may not even have a record yet hunting their that morning since it was open to the public and chaotic.

I feel so much better when I am not on the fence. Sounds crazy huh! But with whatever is going on at Blink's it really makes you take pause. I wonder where Blink has gotten her information? It boggles my mind why LE would put out the clothing if it was already found. But, pretty much everything in this case boggles my mind.

Hi Island Monkey!
Did you see the article that I posted last night about the school? I am still steaming mad about it. The school refused to say what time Kyron was reported absent???????????

WE know NONE of that as fact, it's supposition and speculation as to what Terri thinks and NOT one person here knows what that is. I do think (again speculating) that she did it knowing Kaine would find out, and I don't think she choose MC as a permanent replacement and can't recall what he even did for a living, but from the last affadavit we found K earned around 90m in 02 IIRC.......sadly in specific parts of the county that is not enough to live on, for instance San Diego vs podunk, Ohio.

I think Terri was pathetic and needy, and it was IMO like a cry for attn "someone pay attn to me", "someone love me, think I am attractive" etc., I have known ppl like that and their self worth and any self esteem is usually the lowest of the low.

I did, I also posted that a few weeks ago and was just as pizzed off........and it made matters worse that they even "considered" he walked off ::MonkeyMad:: A dual investigation should have been priority and I just think they should assume the worst and be thankful for when it isn't, otherwise you lose valuable time, leads and witness stmts those first 2 days that are vital to any investigation IMO. I think the school may be doing a little CYA wrt what time the abscense was marked.

DeDe IIRC was not on anyone's radar until she stayed with Terri after Kaine left.
By the time Kaine left, June 26, Kyron had been missing for almost three weeks. That was enough time for LE to obtain all of Terri's phone + computer records and start their work of investigating anyone she had contact with. They had enough to attempt the sting and that fizzled and backfired on them.
Her friends getting bat phones made them look more than stupid, but I can't see DeDe or those women being part of this. I can see DeDe keeping information to herself as far as what was going on with Terri after, but if she had alot of communication with Terri before this happened, wouldn't they have known about it?
I don't know why anyone is so focused in on DeDe unless they need some other person to solidify the MFH.
As far as those FB sites and the support of Terri on FB and the trashing of Kaine, what
purpose did that serve ? Just some crazy persons like in the Casey case. I wonder about things also, what happened to Kyron, but I don't think I would ever support anyone who could possibly have done it. Having ppl support you on FB isn't going to help her if she is ever charged. 

PDH3,
I truly believe that your posts along with the one sided reporting in this case makes people hang on to the theory that Terri may be innocent. When a poster acts as if Kaine Horman is a saint and continually acts as if they know what Kaine PERSONALLY does or thinks, well, it does not sit right with some, especially ME. I will honor Klass' request and not say anything negative about Kaine. Having said this, unless you know Kaine personally or live inside of his head, you cannot possibly know first hand what his motives or thoughts are. Again, I think that Terri played a part in Kyron's disappearance, but the continual snarky posts that you make are causing more harm than good. It is also very rude to your fellow monkeys. I do not agree with a lot of posts but try to give everyone the benefit of THEIR OWN OPINION. I also count on Klaas to reign things in when she sees fit. NOT YOU. In my opinion the sexts do not mean too much in the whole scheme of things. If Terri is a self-centered person who only thinks of herself, than these sexts could have been sent by her even if she is innocent. The thing that keeps me thinking that Terri is guilty is the fact that Terri lawyered up and has remained silent for 6+ months.

Exactly, we have no idea what Kaine, or Terry are thinking. We have no idea what really went on inside that house. Terri could have been sexting MC, just to get back at Kaine for all we know. We have no idea if Kyron was tormented by Terri either, yes, he may have wanted to live with his mother, but like others have pointed out that isn't that unusual, in these types of situations.

I agree with this and will add to it, I think Terri was either trying to get back at Kaine by choosing his friend or trying to see if Kaine will get jealous. Both show signs of immaturity in my opinion but doesn't mean she hurt Kyron. She could have, but to me this doesn't show anything more then a desperate woman. For me, I think it shows she may have had a drinking problem as to me, it seems she had been drinking more then just that one drink Dede brought to her.

I have to remember that Terri is said to have sent James away and that seems like it was a good decision on her part. She also wanted Kyron to stay with his mother full time and as it turns out, that too probably would have been a good decision.The question is why did she want that, what is the factual reason and not the assumed answer. 

Yea I have to admit, I don't get the whole Dede thing either. It seems there is a big push for the public to think otherwise however. 

I recall that in the beginning, it was the first thing that made me feel the school was in CYA mode.

lol, very clever.

As far as we know there is not evidence that Kyron is not alive so I am not sure how a person can be tried for murder without evidence leading to that conclusion. I think this case needs either a confession or evidence saying Kyron is not alive to have a conviction.

Good question.

Terri sounds "insecure".

What has the sexting and related photos got to do with the Kyron Horman case.

I realize that the sexting ... online affair ... revealed a conscience void of love for Kyron and Kaine but ... the implication does not necessarily imply that Terri was a participant in her stepson's disappearance.

In every walk of life ... there are persons who commit unconscionable acts that may appear to be ultimate betrayals to the ones they profess to love but these unconscionable acts do not necessarily equate to a disappearing a little boy.
 
Janet

+++++++

Dateline NBC puts story of missing Kyron in national eye
Published: Monday, July 26, 2010, 11:17 PM
Updated: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 4:26 PM

Desiree Young also elaborated on her split with Kaine Horman in 2002, saying that her then-husband struck up a relationship with Terri Moulton Horman while she was eight months pregnant.

“It was pretty hard to handle,” Young said. “I cried solid for two months and didn't leave the bedroom, because I didn't understand why she somehow equated to something better than me and my son.”

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/dateline_nbc_highlights_puts_s.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

(Snipped)

“They point to one undeniable fact: They lack any physical evidence of Kyron, or physical evidence that links anyone to his disappearance.”

“And, with "not one shred of evidence to indicate the child has died," Staton said, investigators must push forward as though Kyron is still alive.”

In other words ... very selfish ... "It is all about me".

Janet

Janet -

IIRC, the sexting took place "after" Kaine left Terri.  So, it has nothing to do with Kyron's case - and probably not much to do with the divorce, either - except that Kaine has made a questionable copy of the sexting an exhibit to his sworn affidivit - and now, more likely than not, it will be a bone of contention in divorce court - not because of what's in the sexting, but the questionable "copy" that was submitted and the fact that one of phone numbers used in the sexting belonged to Kaine Horman's account (and was not the phone number of MC's telephone). 

 

It is my hope that in the process of elimination ... all those who had a direct connection to Kyron were seriously investigated.  In other words no presumption of innocence ... no automatic passes.

Janet

+++++


Multnomah County Sheriff Dan Staton confident Kyron Horman investigation won't end up in the cold case files
Published: Saturday, December 04, 2010, 4:21 PM
Updated: Sunday, December 05, 2010, 7:07 AM

"They're a lot further along," Staton said. "They started out with a long laundry list. ... They've gradually been able to eliminate people who they can say are absolutely not involved. This investigation has narrowed it down significantly."

And, with "not one shred of evidence to indicate the child has died," Staton said, investigators must push forward as though Kyron is still alive.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

Puzzler

Sebastain, thanks again for posting that article.  I'm steamed, too!  The school, IMO, is covering up.  Makes me question whether the teacher was really told June 4 for a dr. appt. or she just heard next Friday and since Kyron went missing...the teacher decided next Friday was June 4.

Yes...AND...that "scared to death look" on her face. The questioning look at others?  Insecure and scared.

I really hope that the divorce details can be kept sealed.
The sexting, it sure turned alot of persons against her and I can't think of any good reason why they were given to Kaine and why his lawyer felt that it was a good idea, never mind a good legal idea to have them included. I like to know what makes people tick, but those sexts have nothing to do with Kyron and I felt after I read them, that it was none of my business.
I even felt ashamed of myself for reading them. Even if they are expunged from the divorce papers, the information is out there and the damage was done. Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube now.   

Terri retained an attorney after the failed sting operation - when it was obvious LE was after her.
That was 3 weeks after Kyron went missing.
That means that she was answering questions...or "talking"...for three weeks.
We understand from an email allegedly from Terri, that she had 5 interviews with LE the first night.


I would hope that anyone of us would retain an attorney if we found out that LE pulled a sting operation against us.
And we know that the first thing defense attorneys advised their clients to do is to "shut up"!

IMO...that was the "reason" why the sexting exhibit was filed; a scorched-earth play against Terri.  Yes, it will never be forgotten by anyone who knows about it. 

Tracygirl

Again ... that is a "He Said; She Said" issue.

When all is said and done ... unless the fly on the wall is being quoted by the media ... none of us wannabe detectives have a clue in regards to the truth encompassing the dynamics inside the Horman household.

Janet

++++++

THE JAMES ISSUE

He Said; She Said?

Terri Horman e-mail provides insight into family tensions
Story Published: Aug 11, 2010 at 10:46 PM PST
Story Updated: Aug 11, 2010 at 10:46 PM PST

PORTLAND, Ore. - Two months before Kyron Horman vanished, his stepmother, Terri Moulton Horman, sent an e-mail to a KATU News source regarding her biological son that provides new insight into the tension that may have been brewing in the Horman household.

Throughout the two-and-a-half month search for Kyron, his older stepbrother, James Moulton, has stayed out of the spotlight. In March, James went to live in Roseburg, but the reason why depends on who is asked.

It seems his mother, Terri Horman, has told different people different things and sources say it has added to the confusion.

One version - in Horman’s own words - was recently forwarded to KATU News.

“I had my son go to live with my parents so he would be happy - went from D’s to straight A’s within one month of being away from Kaine,” she wrote in an April 6 e-mail.

That’s consistent with what James’ father, Ron Tarver, told Willamette Week, adding the 16-year-old had been acting out and butting heads with his stepfather But Kaine Horman told The Oregonian their relationship was typical and that Terri and her son were the ones who didn’t get along. Kaine said he was often the mitigator between the two of them.

But that’s not what Terri’s friend from 24-Hour Fitness, who testified before the grand jury Monday, said they heard. In the weeks before Kyron disappeared, that person said Terri was upset, telling the friend her husband forced her son to move out.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100511654.html


She Said?

Terri tells gym members Kaine wanted her son gone
Story Published: Aug 9, 2010 at 4:17 PM PST
Story Updated: Aug 11, 2010 at 8:39 AM PST

PORTLAND, Ore. – An acquaintance of Terri Horman, who asked to remain anonymous, said Monday Terri was very upset in the weeks before Kyron vanished because she said her husband, Kaine, was making her teenage son move out of the couple’s Portland home.

According to the acquaintance, Terri Horman came to a 24-Hour Fitness a month to two months before Kyron disappeared and was furious. The source said Terri kept complaining – to anyone who would listen – that Kaine was allegedly making her teenage son move out.

Terri’s 16-year-old son did move out of the home in March.

Friends, who worked out with Terri Horman at that 24-Hour Fitness, testified before a grand jury Monday.

According to sources, the friends were not extremely close to Terri. However, they were close enough that Terri often confided in them with issues from her home.

Three grand jury witnesses declined to speak with reporters outside the Multnomah County Courthouse Monday. All three, according to sources, are members of that 24-Hour Fitness.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100309979.html

Yes ... it was following the FAILED sting operation that Terri clued in that she was the focus of the investigation in regards to the disappearance of her stepson.  It was following the FAILED sting operation that the court documents ... which afforded Kaine custody of Kiara and evicted Terri from the family home ... stated that according to LE there was probable cause that Terri attempted to have her husband murdered and ... probable cause that she was a participant in the disappearing of Kyron.

Think about the sting operation.  The sting operation would not have happened if LE had more than the landscaper's word that there was a MFH plot.

Then think about the outcome of the sting operation.  Terri did not attempt to negotiate with the landscaper to assure his silence ... she immediately called 911.  Would Terri have reacted accordingly if there was truth in the landscaper's words.

Could it be that the landscaper ... not expecting the sting operator ... had come forward with the account of a MFH plot again Kaine as a way to convince LE and the court of public opinion that Terri had to capacity to disappear Kyron?  In other words ... was there an agenda to focus attention on Terri and distract from the truth?

Janet

Do you think MC told Kaine about the texts? I do because Kaine is still friends with MC or from what I am told MC is on Kaines FB. If true, doesn't that mean MC had to have done something to redeem himself in Kaines eyes? After all, Kaines friend was also sexting during the time he was there to help support Kaine and help find Kyron. I think I would have been pretty upset with both people as well as betrayed. 

Yeah, I saw MC on Kaine's FB friends list months after all of the sexting stuff came about.  I also thought the way MC was reacting to TH's texts may indicate he was possibly working with Kaine.  Several times his response was something along the lines of "You're fun".

On a side note (and I can't remember the names) I remember being surprised by people who were still on his FB, people who had sided with TH.  I think his friends list is no longer public...

I think the following is what you are referring to in you post.

I have read this Blink blog over and over again but ... do not fully comprehend the implication.  Puzzler ... could you please guide me through the process using baby steps.

Thanks

Janet

+++++++

Kyron Horman Case: Terri Horman Sexts Sent To Kaine Horman’s Phone…. WHAT?
Posted by Blink | Tuesday 2 November 2010 5:32 pm

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/#comments

Is this what Blink is alluding to in her article?

Janet

++++++

Kyron Horman Case: Terri Horman Sexts Sent To Kaine Horman’s Phone…. WHAT?
Posted by Blink | Tuesday 2 November 2010 5:32 pm

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/#comments


Kaine Horman: High-School Friend Contacted Family After Kyron Disappeared, Then Started Affair
3:26 PM July 12th, 2010 by James Pitkin

The stepmom of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman started an affair with a high-school friend of Kyron’s father after the boy disappeared, according to a court document (PDF) filed today by Kyron’s dad.

Kaine Horman tells WW he hadn’t seen Michael Cook since high school, but Cook contacted the family after Kyron disappeared June 4. The two men went to high-school together in Seattle.

“The first time I’ve seen him since then was when Kyron went missing,” Kaine Horman says.

Kaine Horman alleges in his filing in Multnomah County Circuit Court that his wife,Terri Moulton Horman, started an affair with Cook around June 30. That was four days after Kaine Horman left his home with the the couple’s 20-month-old daughter, Kiara. Horman filed for divorce and a restraining order against Terri Horman on June 28.

The document filed today alleges Terri Horman began “sexting” with Cook, Kaine Horman’s high-school friend — sending hundreds of text messages and photos of herself “in various stages of undress and graphic sexual activity.” The document says that based on statements from law enforcement, Kaine Horman believes the relationship involved “sexual activity.”

The document asks Judge Keith Meisenheimer to find Terri Moulton Horman in contempt of court for showing a copy of Kaine Horman’s application for a restraining order to Cook, including his listed address. The document says Terri Horman was under orders not to do so.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/12/court-doc-terri-horman-started-affair-after-kyron-disappeared/

Court Documents
http://media.wweek.com/attach/2010/07/12/contempt.pdf

 

In all fairness I should have included, it could mean he didn't update the fb and remove friends. We have never really been told how active he was on FB.

Wow, took the words right out of my mouth!  I dont get it either. Unfortunatly I cannot coment on this case very much because I would get banned.

Blink is so respectable so I tend to go with her but still get so confused over the cryptic wording used over there.

Leroy

I have attempted to navigate the Blink on Crime site but ... all for naught.  What is the link to the topic pertaining to Kyron's clothes?

Thank You

Janet

One thing said on Blinks site a few days ago was regarding the outfit they had on displayed. Let me copy what was said. I didn't notice I suppose the pants were in the condition they were. This posters has an interesting comment

evie says: December 29, 2010 at 7:47 pm
“Someone asked this week about the samples of Kyron’s clothing that was displayed. I’ve had the link open here but no chance to reply. See the clothing photos here: http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm#kyron
‘the likenesses of the shirt, pants, socks and shoes Kyron was wearing on the day of his disappearance. The pants displayed here are of the same style Kyron was wearing, but those he was last seen in were darker. Otherwise these clothes represent identifying items in this search. We show these items to create additional awareness for the public – seeing any of these items individually (a sock, a shirt or shoe) could be the tip that we need to locate Kyron.’”

Maybe it’s just me, but it struck me as weird that the police put on display what appear to be dirty (or stained) socks and bleach-spotted pants. Kyron’s family had tons of his clothes from which to select replicas for the socks and pants. Why pick those? Or are these the actual clothing, located by law enforcement or perhaps returned by the kidnapper?

It was also very strange how the glasses were shown as close-ups, right down to the side of the frame, giving the brand, model, and size. Did law enforcement have reason to believe that someone went to buy replacement glasses for Kyron? Or did they believe that the glasses were kept as a souvenir of sorts by the kidnapper?

Several have asked what the sexting has to do with Kyron's disappearance, or I guess what it means to us - because at this point we don't know what it means to LE and their investigation.

I think that many of us on the "it matters" side of the fence feel it matters because it shows a state of mind towards the disappearance of the child.  In our eyes, in our *opinions* (with all the implications that word has) it shows a callousness and disregard for the state her life *should* be in if she were truly grieving and worried about the missing child.  In our eyes, it shows that rather than worrying about little Kyron (and three weeks is wayyy to early to be resolved), she's got extra-curricular activity of some sort on her mind.  It also shows that she's inappropriate in a way that is striking, and that inappropriateness again points back towards her feelings about the disappearance of Kyron.

Just as you feel it doesn't matter, it does strongly matter - so thank you for asking "why".  Just as we respect your opinion that it doesn't, I truly hope you respect our opinion that it not only does is quite significant.

Oops should ready "Just as you feel it doesn't matter, we feel it does strongly..." blah blah blah.  :D  Self edit.

Tracygirl -- thank you.

I kept looking at the pants and wondered why they appeared stained. The socks I really didn't pay attention to, but those pants just jumped out at you. Could that just be the pants? Could it be the photography?

I know that half the stuff I look at on Ebay, there is a note saying "the spots or discoloration is from the camera, blah, blah, blah," and I think that may be the case with the pants. I think if the pair LE showed are a pair of Kyron's, they are the closest in style the parents had to show. I really do not think they are stained (or that they are THE pants.)

Thank-you, I don't believe they are the pants either.

As I do not have a link to access Blink's blog pertaining to the to the topic of the clothes and glasses ... I do not know where her speculation is coming from ... speculation which implies that the photos provided on the site of the Multnohah County Sheriff's Office are the actual clothing worn by Kyron when he disappeared.  The words in the official statement imply otherwise.

Janet

++++++


MULTNOMAH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE

To add to that information, we have on display the likenesses of the shirt, pants, socks and shoes Kyron was wearing on the day of his disappearance. The pants displayed here are of the same style Kyron was wearing, but those he was last seen in were darker. Otherwise these clothes represent identifying items in this search.  We show these items to create additional awareness for the public – seeing any of these items individually (a sock, a shirt or shoe) could be the tip that we need to locate Kyron.

Please click on images to enlarge

http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm#kyron

I was sort of thinking perhaps he had a pair in a smaller size that he outgrew. It is also not uncommon for a child to have many pairs of glasses because their eyes are still changing. I thought it was interesting though because I didn't notice the pants had the spots on them.

Janet it was a poster who said that, it was not blink. I don't recall if she has said anything one way or another on the clothing.

This was a very respectful post, thank you for that.
It is not that I think it has nothing to do with it but I think it doesn't have a direct link to Kyron. Meaning one does not lead to the other.

Thank-you, I understand what you are saying.

I agree, they may have been the closest in style to Kyron's pants.  He doesn't seem like he was outgrowing his clothes terribly fast, the pants may have been older and it may have been hard to find an exact replica.

Thank you for clarifying Tracygirl.

I think the official statement at the official site of the Multnohah County Sheriff's Office speaks for itself.  I do not comprehend the discussion.

Janet

I think state of mind is very relevant.
Just look at how hard Bozo et al. are trying to keep Casey's exploits out of trial.
State of mind matters.

BTW, was looking at SoCal's forum. Seems there's a lot of SM and BOC bashing going on there.
I won't be going back.

I am not the poster who posted it but I think it goes with the theory of a kidnapping with items found of Kyrons during searches. I know there was discussion on a few boards about if Kryons glasses had been received with a ransom note. So I think this poster was speculating if perhaps other items had also been found.

I keep seeing something about this SoCal's forum and have no idea what that is.

socallinkss2.proboards.com
Hope that works. If I go the other way it's directly to my log in.

Sorry, that link doesn't work NRCG.

In my thinking, state of mine has to be an entire picture of the person. I understand what everyones concerns are, I think the texts show a person who is insecure, desperate, and afraid to be alone, not to mention inappropriate on many levels.
Desiree had said she felt Terri didn't like Kyron very much, she blamed him for the troubles in the marriage. I can imagine Terri was feeling like Kyron was at it again, ruining everything for her, because Terri was not a healthy minded woman at that point proved by an inappropriate act of sexting MC. I think she could have felt this way with or without hurting Kyron.
I respect all other opinions as I realize these are just my opinions.

so SM and Blink are getting bashed? Why now?

There are not many official statements from LE that have shed light on issues encompassing the disappearance of Kyron Horman but when those statements do happen ... I embrace them as truth and ... speculation on that particular issue ends for me.

In other words ... regarding this topic ... the implication is that law enforcement DO NOT have the clothing and glasses worn by Kyron on the morning of June 4, 2010.  Case Closed!  IMO

Janet

++++++

MULTNOMAH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE

To add to that information, we have on display the likenesses of the shirt, pants, socks and shoes Kyron was wearing on the day of his disappearance. The pants displayed here are of the same style Kyron was wearing, but those he was last seen in were darker. Otherwise these clothes represent identifying items in this search.  We show these items to create additional awareness for the public – seeing any of these items individually (a sock, a shirt or shoe) could be the tip that we need to locate Kyron.

Please click on images to enlarge

http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm#kyron

I logged out, duh. See if this works. If not, I saw it somewhere in this thread.

http://socallinkss2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=logout

Not sure how relevant this is but, I just read that Judge Meisenheimer had resigned (I guess that was in the news back in November) and a different judge will proceed with the Horman's divorce case.  Somehow I missed that.

Thank-you, it looks like you have to be a member to read there.

It appears that they are appalled by the suggestion that Terri could not be involved and don't approve of discussing Kaine's shortcomings.
For the record, I think Terri is responsible, however, am not opposed to alternate theorizing.

Curly - I'm not sure where you get that idea...I read over there just like I do here, and if anything, they are the anti-Terri cheerleaders.  Someone there implied that SM was nothing but Kaine-bashers, which I just shook my head at, since it is obviously not the case.  I think someone just likes to fan the flames (rolling my eyes)

Yep I agree Janet.

Agree.  And on 12/4 LE said this:

"They point to one undeniable fact: They lack any physical evidence of Kyron, or physical evidence that links anyone to his disappearance."

On BOC, a poster keeps going around and around about the "clothes".  LE, themselves, told us the clothes were similar, but that Kyron was actually wearing darker pants.  The "pants" were addressed by LE at that time.

Ditto.

NoRose - it's a site that started up by posters that posted on GLP's Kyron thread - GLP shut down their Kyron thread.

Well, it's probably safe to say that people have various "shades" of the importance of the link to Kyron.  Between the black and white shades, there can be many greys.  :)  It's a shame we don't really know for sure yet what the implications are yet!  If we did, maybe we'd have more answers like where the heck little Kyron is, please-and-thank you.

It appeared to me that quite a few posters were implying just that and chose to no longer read there.

Absolutely, I totally agree. I also wish there was punishment for people who delay investigations by using the forums as a game. They go make 10 different Id's then use one to go post "facts"..."inside scoops" and the others to verify how credible that person is and/or agree with them It's all the same person and I could swear, right after Kyron went missing and I got approved here, that it was TH who was caught on a forum doing that. They had forgot to sign out and back in, so the same id that posted the original comment, was also the id that replied with praise and compliments. After reading a comment where James had made it a point to say TH had no internet there, I can't help but wonder how many of these id's that appear to be having conversations, are one person.

Somewhere I've read that James has said his mom can't have a cell phone or a computer at her parents, does anyone know if that was court ordered, or was it scripted for him to say in hopes everyone believes she has neither so any activity online especially *can't be her*.

TH's lawyer may have told her to stay off the internet, not sure how the courts could do that since she is not charged with anything...

 ::HelloKitty::

I actually had a neighbor that did MFH.

The would be murderer went to LE.

He was wired.  Info was got on tape and money exchanged hands.  Busted. 

LE believed about my neighbor I am sure because he is a nasty piece of work.  But they couldn't act until the deal was sealed.

THs deal was not sealed.  So, too bad, unlesss there is more info out there that we don't know about.

anyone remember LE statement regarding someone that they had been investigating prior to Kyron disappearing?

I vaguely remember something along those lines. I thought they said this case lead to other cases?

It's been reading articles like this

 http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html

that have made me think that she cares about nothing other than herself and what she wants that minute. She's left a trail of men, that failed at making her feel pretty and important. It's always said to be their fault, followed by a list of her needs that they failed to meet. She seems to have no clue that she's the common denominator here and all the moving on in the world isn't going to fix that problem . Even with her oldest son, she had him with Tarver, chucks him to the side, gets with Eckard. has him adopt him, chucks Eckard, except for his child support payment and drops her son back off with Tarver. Most parents at least would have enough sense to not toss their own kids around, placing them with whatever dad makes their own life easier.

Even TH's comments, about losing custody of Kiara, were all about what not seeing Kiara was doing to her, never comments about hoping Kiara gets put down with the right blanket or rocked etc

In my opinion that speaks volumes for TH's character, but I'm basing it off my own experience, maybe I'm not the norm. A couple of my kids were premies and had to be left in the hospital when I was released and yes it sucked for me but my thoughts and voiced concerns were truly over my babies. With one of them my husband worked graveyard so I couldn't go to the hospital for the 3am feeding and I too was upset over being seperated, I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, but still the only things that crossed my mind were "what if's" like what if she thinks I've abandoned her, what if she's scared, what if they don't have time to rock her etc.

There was a show on Snapped before where an adopted daughter killed her mom. She ended up getting a second trial and at that one her birthmother testified and she had an extensive mental health history, said to be hereditary. I'm not saying that's the case her but I sure can't help but wonder.

Visibly Impaired

Kaine fears daughter saw unimaginable horror
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:15 PM
Updated Wednesday, Oct 27 at 6:16 AM

Kaine also stated in the filing that it was common for Terri to be visibly impaired from alcohol, including slurred speech and a staggering gait.

Kaine states that Terri spent most nights sleeping on the living room couch with their young daughter, typically "passed out from heavily drinking." Kaine also stated their young daughter was often "up past midnight playing and/or watching TV." The court document states that their daughter Kiara would often be up and awake at 1 a.m. while Terri "was asleep from alcohol."

http://www.kgw.com/news/kyron-horman/Kaine-Horman-Terri-unfit-105734863.html


Learned from the Media

Desiree: Terri hated Kyron, blamed him for failing marriage
Posted on November 15, 2010 at 8:10 AM
Updated Monday, Nov 15 at 5:28 PM

Desiree Young and Kyron's father Kaine Horman have long provided a united front in the search for their son. But on Monday, Desiree indicated she was seriously disappointed with Kaine for failing to share with her information of Terri's alleged issues with alcohol.

"I just can't stand by and support the choices that he's making. He had several opportunities to let Tony (Desiree's husband) and I know what was going on and he did not, " she said.

"We learned all of this information after the fact and from the media. He had several opportunities to let Tony know, and I know, what was going on, and he did not, she said." ....

In her interview on Today, (Desiree) Young also said that she tried to get custody of Kyron a year before he disappeared, but Kaine would not allow it. Young said Terri even called her on the phone to urge her to take over custody of Kyron because he was so upset.

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Exclusive--Kyron-Hormans-Mom-Talks-About-Disturbing-Emails--108170584.html

He Said

Kaine blames alcohol for Terri's alleged 'emotional disturbance'
Story Published: Oct 25, 2010 at 9:46 PM PST
Story Updated: Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM PST

Kaine alleges now-16-year-old James left their family home four months before Kyron's disappearance because Terri was "unable to interact with James on a healthy level and had him moved to her parents' home in Roseburg."

http://www.katu.com/news/local/105747813.html

Janet,

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/#comments

FWIW – This is what I get out of reading Blink’s article (using wording from the article – there is much more to the article and it’s all interesting reading):

When the Restraining Order (RO) was completed and filed against Terri, two separate phone numbers to reach Terri were hand-written by Kaine on the Order. 

One of those phone numbers, as filed in court with the sworn affidavit “exhibit” (the sexting messages), is the number used by MC to “receive” the sext messages.  Kaine owns the phone and the account it’s registered to.

MC’s phone that he uses is a “work phone” provided by the company he works for and is registered to that company.  That company number is not on the sext messages.

In the contempt order (RO), Kaine’s attorney states she has personally seen MC’s “work phone” records and further says a “search” of his phone reflects that he took snapshots on June 28 of the RO – that’s the sealed RO when it first came out. No texts on the phone until July, logical conclusion the pictures were of the sealed RO.

When the 21 pages of texts were released in PDF format, without any numbers for Terri, they were supplied in an electronically “redacted” format – indicating this was not an original file.

When the “un-redacted” PDF’s became available and were converted to HTML file, it became clear that the records came from “account owners” and were “not” subpoenaed from the “carrier”.
 
The court requires “original files”.  The court also requires “original files” be given to the respondent. 

Per the article, anyone that had access to the account registered to Kaine, could clone, spoof or manipulate the messages, period.
At this point there’s no proof that Terri sent the texts; however, her attorneys have not denied it was her.

None of the records KH purports came from TH lists a number indicating the identity of the other party to the conversation (allegedly the text being “sent” by Terri).
 
The number listed is on the texts being “sent” allegedly by MC – KH is the registered owner of that phone.  KH listed that same number on the application for the temporary RO.

The article questions: “Given that the phone Mr. Horman is the registered owner of the phone he purports was used by “Michael Cook,” it begs the question as to whether Ms. Horman ever allowed Mr. Cook access to the sealed restraining order.  As a party to the action, Mr. Homan had the very same sealed documents. Mr. Horman, through Counsel Laura Rackner, claimed to have reviewed Mr. Cook’s “work cell phone records.””

“It is not clear if the documents Ms. Rackner referenced as Mr. Cook’s “work” cell records are, in fact, for the phone registered to Mr. Horman.  If the sealed documents referenced in Mr. Horman’s contempt motion were photographed with the phone registered to Mr Horman – the same phone that Mr. Horman claims was used by Mr. Cook – it might help explain why Mr. Horman withdrew his contempt motion.”

“Had he gone forward with the motion, he might have had to explain how it was the documents allegedly photographed by Mr. Cook were the same documents that he had in his possession, and that the phone used to photograph sealed court documents was registered to him, not Mr. Cook.”

Two days “after” MCSO conducted its failed sting operation, thereby being unable to confirm the MFH plot alleged by the landscaper and being unable to arrest TH, KH signed his application for temporary RO.

The question arises as to “why” LE gave the green light to KH to obtain a RO on the basis that TH tried to hire a hit man – or – did KH act unilaterally without the endorsement of LE.  Two days later – surely – it was known that LE could not verify the landscaper’s story, yet KH went ahead and filed a RO on the very allegations that LE could not verify – so why would anyone sign their name to such allegations?

My 2 cents…none of this has anything to do with bringing Kyron home.  In fact, the sexting actually took place "after" KH left TH. The questions being raised are WRT the documents, how they were obtained, who actually did the sexting and was it a set up using MC.  It will be interesting to see if/how this “Exhibit” to KH’s sworn affidavit is addressed in divorce court.  Will the filing of the RO become a bone of contention WRT custody?  If the phone number used in the sexting is KH’s phone and the records filed in the Exhibit are not “original records”, why was the exhibit filed?  Why weren't “original records” filed, as required by the court?  All this raises some very interesting questions.

I have no doubt she looks to others to fulfill her needs and I can see exactly where you are coming from, I too had a micropreemie grandson born at 23 weeks last yr who passed away after an eleven week battle to live, and being at the hospital several times a day, working full time, and taking my son to and from every practice and baseball game yet still feeling like you abandonded them was gut wrenching and the what if's unimaginable. I have considered the hereditary factor too.......so many what if's ::MonkeyNoNo::

Same here.

Don't care a lot, but a link would be nice or a real name of the site, so we could look at it if we wanted.

 ::MonkeyEek::

I am interested to know what info LE has been withholding in regards to the alleged MFH plot against Kain and the disappearance of Kyron ... info for five months has legally denied Terri any contact with her daughter and legally kept her out of the family home.

It must be huge!

Janet

++++++

Kaine Horman asks judge to make Terri Moulton Horman move out of his house
Published: Thursday, July 08, 2010, 12:06 PM
Updated: Thursday, July 08, 2010, 6:43 PM

Multnomah County judge today unsealed the petition for the restraining order which Kaine Horman obtained on June 28, two days after investigators informed him that his wife had offered to pay a landscaper to kill him months before his son's disappearance.

"I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010. I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me,'' Kaine Horman wrote in his petition. "The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/judge_releases_restraining_ord.html

Correction - after "In the contempt order" , I did not mean to put (RO)

BUMPED for Brandi.......

Yes, I remember this also.

Thanks Puzzle

This wannabe detective has yet to bow and get a cell phone. My hubby was talking about this issue prior to Christmas ... so I do believe the writing is on the wall.  I can just imagine it.  I will be constantly hunting for for specs.  Those bottons/keys are sooo small.

Janet

There is nothing to read there. It is a log in page.

But thanks for trying.

IMO, WRT TH's son, we just do not have the information to make any negagive declarative statements about why he was sent to live with her parents.  All we've heard to this point is that he was bored in school, his grades were slipping and that he was missing some school.  With the grandparents and the access to the father's horses, TH wanting him to get involved with 4-H, the son is happier, grades are better and he's involved with the horses. 

You have to be a member to read IIRC, I think someone stated that a page or two back......my bad, I thought you just requested a link.

Good point Puzzler....also, after raising teenagers with divorced/seperated parents I have seen many kids in the 14-17 age range want to move and try living with the other parent or family member. It also seems he appears to be doing well considering the circumstances.

The "she said/he said" quotes that I posted regarding why James left the Horman home were contradictory statements from both Kaine and Terri.  The truth.  Who Knows?  Maybe the fly on the wall of the Horman home.

Janet

++++++

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9196.300

The odd part about the older son leaving is the timing, why in the middle of a school year? There must have been some issue, whether with TH or KH. With something like that, I would expect each to blame the other and the truth to be somewhere in the middle. We have to remember than since TH is not talking, we only hear one side directly; everything TH has said has been third hand or a piece of an email (I know-her choice, but still.)

In any event, I think it could have bearing with Kyron only in that the atmosphere in this home was probably miserable. And Kyron asked his mommy to keep him, that was all he knew to do. But Kaine did not let Desiree know about Terri's drunken stupors, so Desiree lacked critical information in deciding how far to go in trying to get custody.
And then it was too late.

What I do not get is...why didn't he put the baby to sleep himself. Where was he in the evenings? Did he come home late and find it that way?

Seriously, why would the baby be put to sleep so late if he were home and his wife was poopfaced, I do not blame Kaine for anything...but, I do wonder about that.

Janet - FYI - I wasn't making a reference to anything you posted.

Puzzler

 ::HelloKitty::

Maybe the baby was put to bed and got up again later.   Kids that age do actually do that.  Mine did.

 ::HelloKitty::

Divorce hearing will not be on Jan 6

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/01/post_53.html

Exactly!

If she is responsible, I wouldn't be surprised to find out she's justified her actions in her head and sees nothing wrong with them.

Like an idiot in court today, who couldn't grasp he'd committed a crime., claiming false charges-a felony grand theft and a breaking and entering charge, demanding to know since when is taking something that's your own, theft. He'd been arrested after breaking in and stealing from his former employer. He plead not guilty, claiming what he took was owed to him, so it wasn't stealing and he was 100% sure he'd win the case. Today was his sentencing and he argued with the judge clear up until being removed.

Evidently his employer had failed to pay him overtime, so he went in and told the employer the days he forgot to clock in, weekends not clocked, lots of over time he claimed to have worked etc. His boss refused to pay him that large of an amount without some sort of documentation, he needed something more than because the guy said so and handed him a bill covering 9  months. The guy got mad and quit. His unemployment was then denied so he added that on the amount he would have been making, had he not quit. He waited until the middle of the night to enter(break in) and being an "honest man" took no more cash and merchandise than what he was owed.

   

Thanks, hellokitty.

Aww...geesh...wonder how this happened?

Wonder if this is simply a postponement for a few days or if it will turn out to be a postponement until after February (giving enough time to see if Stanton is going to make any formal charges or not against Terri).