Caylee Marie Anthony-MURDER TRIAL-DAY 4 - 5/27/2011

[akmom]

I wanted to believe that George had manned up.  Now, I cannot shake the niggling feeling that this may have been in the works and it was known.  With the way they have been acting and thinking this whole time, George may very well have decided to fall on the sword to save Casey's life.  I remember at some point one of the Anthony's  said that they had lost their grand daughter and could not lose their daughter too.  Remember that George was asked by Baez(wasn't it just within the last couple of weeks?), would he do ANYTHING for his daughter????  Was that a sign from Baez that this was a go, and the plan was in place? 

I wish I wasn't thinking this.....

[Tamikosmom]

Page 3 of the autopsy report says the tape was clearly placed PRIOR to decomposition. 

http://blogs.discovery.com/files/caylee_anthony_autopsy01.pdf

Prior to decomposition ... not prior to death!!

Thanks Klaas

Considering the flurry of unanswered cell calls from Casey to Cindy ... my theory implies that Caylee died of a drug overdose (chloroforum) on the afternoon of June 16th and Casey retuned home on June 18th while her parents were at work.

Could it be that on June 18th the duct tape was wrapped around Caylees mouth with a sticker attached prior to wrapping Caylee in a Winnie the Pooh blanket ... placing her in three garbage bags and ... burying her in the backyard burial using a borrowed shovel?

When does decomposition set in?

Janet

Could the reason Casey wrapped duct tape over Caylee's mouth was to prevent body  fluids from escaping?

Janet

[wreck]

I'm certainly poking where I don't have any knowledge -- but, it seems the mouth is not the only orifice you would have to tape. I would guess that the duct tape is either the "murder weapon" or an attempt to make it look like a kidnapping.

[Tamikosmom]

I'm certainly poking where I don't have any knowledge -- but, it seems the mouth is not the only orifice you would have to tape. I would guess that the duct tape is either the "murder weapon" or an attempt to make it look like a kidnapping.

Could it be that two days following the death of Caylee ... the mouth was the only opening that was obviously excreting body fluids?

Janet

[akmom]

I believe there may be some timing problems considering the possible amount of time passed/amount of decomposition present in the trunk, odor, etc.  I am still concerned that at some point a deceased Caylee was hidden in the freezer, which may have delayed decomp for a short while.

[wreck]

I'm certainly poking where I don't have any knowledge -- but, it seems the mouth is not the only orifice you would have to tape. I would guess that the duct tape is either the "murder weapon" or an attempt to make it look like a kidnapping.

Could it be that two days following the death of Caylee ... the mouth was the only opening that was obviously excreting body fluids?

Janet

Gosh, this is graphic and sickening (sorry!)! I guess my point is if bodily fluids are at the point of coming out the mouth -- then decomp has already set in. The autopsy said the duct tape was placed BEFORE decomp. Actually, NO scenario makes sense in defense of Casey.

[luvmyboys]

But what freezer?

[cubbeegirl]

I do not trust George Anthony.  His revealed character is not above reproach.

Could there have been a defence strategy ... a defence strategy that implied that George was a willing participant in a desperate effort to save Casey?  Could the allegations of George's participation in a coverup in his granddaughter's death as well as the sexual abuse of Casey be all about planting a seed of doubt/confusion in the minds of jury members?  It only takes one holdout in deliberations and ... justice for Caylee would not prevail.

George is not on trial.  It was a given that he would deny Baez's allegations when questioned as a witness in the trial but ... those allegation could be considered the foundation for "reasonable doubt" by some jurors.

IMO

Janet

I don't trust him either - he had a meeting with Mason and bozo not too long before this trial as NG posted a letter talking about it. He made the remark about them asking him some questions.

I am sorry, but I put NOTHING past anyone in this family and as for his appearing sincere, he did way back when he was claiming to be searching for Caylee and he was at his girlfriend's house ripping her off for money.

KC does have all the symptoms of someone abused, but a sociopath will manipulate people to make it appear as if she has them. I have very mixed emotions about the sexual abuse allegation. He is a classic sociopath as is KC. I don't believe that would be why she had no emotions over Caylee. That is a hell of a leap to get from sexual abuse to killing your baby and exhibiting no emotions. Even an accidental death would provoke emotions, not gang banging guys. She did not think they would ever find Caylee & if the truth is known she put that log you see so often in pictures over her to keep her from being seen. The deep water most likely dislodged the bags with the body when it rose so rapidly in the hurricane.

I have never thought she "accidentally" killed her with chloroform. I have always felt like she killed her in a fit of rage. She may have been trying to use the chloroform and Caylee fought her which provoked her into that same type of rage, or little Caylee may have been crying for her grandmother and the hate for Cindy and the baby crying for her kicked her off. I also think she was into meth. When she first went to jail she slept for 3 days solid they said. That is usually a good indicator of coming off some type of speed.

If you look at that jail tape where she would drawing up her fists and screaming at her parents it would be easy to imagine her doing that to little Caylee and slamming her down or hitting her. I think LE thought that too because they took sheet rock out of that house. I think they were looking for blood on it.

Turbo.... I threw that idea out there long ago myself about the meth.I believed it then, and I believe it now....

[Gypsy DD]

Does anyone else remember?

Don't we know from the autopsy that the duct tape was put on Caylee while she was alive?  Not after being deceased....but on a live Caylee.  I seem to remember that's the way it was.  That would mean that the tape is ultimately the death weapon.

Yes Dr G said the tape was placed on the body pre-mortem..not post mortem..which means she was alive.

I still think that syringe found at the scene in the bottle, still having chloroform after all those months was part of the death.  I think she gave her the shot to relax her , knock her out, and then put the tape on her mouth and nose..wrapping it tightly into her hair..knowing Caylee would not be able to then remove the tape.

I also think George has done many things wrong in the past, things he is not proud of, and things that ultimately hindered this investigation....he said so today in so many words when Baez had him in cross....he also said he wishes he had done and handled some things differently.  I think we have to take him at his word..this is sworn testimony in a murder trial involving the DP and his daughter.


I do not believe that George sexually abused Casey in any way..and Tony's testimony yesterday proved that she lied..too bad that the jury will not hear that at this time.

His testimony also made it clear that Lee did not sexually abuse her..again too bad the jury will not hear that.

One thing sociopaths do is use a tool called gaslighting. 

It can be physical..The Manson Family used to love to break into people's houses and rearrange things..but not take anything..just for the thrill of messing with someone's mind and sense of security.

It can also be emotional/mental confusion of facts..as in lying in such a way to change certain facts but keep a few ..and tell that lie to enough people and it becomes the truth..when infact it never was that way.  This is one way they keep constant  control in their environment and the environment of those they are trying to manipulate.

Had any of these people, friends, met her family and each other to compare notes prior to all this the jig would have been up.  She was very careful to operate on a method of keeping people somewhat separate from one another.

No matter how much I disliked George and Cindy prior to this..I do believe they have turned a corner, whatever the reason is their business.  Caylee deserves that..and it appears he is coming through for Caylee with a truthful testimony. 

As far as the evil secret in the house ..in the family..I believe that evil secet was Casey.  They were already talking to a counselor , trying to get help and advice.
Casey was the ugly secret they were hiding..they just never thought the lying, stealing, and antisocial behavior would get as bad as it did.  They were ready to take Caylee from her..they knew she was not a good mom.  But they did not see her purposely hurting Caylee.  I firmly believe that.

[Puzzler]

Page 3 of the autopsy report says the tape was clearly placed PRIOR to decomposition. 

http://blogs.discovery.com/files/caylee_anthony_autopsy01.pdf

Prior to decomposition ... not prior to death!!

Thank Klaas

Considering the flurry of unanswered cell calls from Casey to Cindy ... my theory implies that Caylee died of a drug overdose (chloroforum) on the afternoon of June 16th and Casey retuned home on June 18th while her parents were at work.

Could it be that on June 18th the duct tape was wrapped around Caylees mouth with a sticker attached prior to wrapping Caylee in a Winnie the Pooh blanket ... placing her in three garbage bags and ... burying her in the backyard burial using a borrowed shovel?

When does decomposition set in?

Janet

Immediately!

[Puzzler]

But what freezer?

If you're talking about the A's, they had a freezer in their garage.

[Northern Rose]

After watching George today, specifically where Bobo is really badgering him and Geo puts both hands out, out of frustration and under her breath says "Come on", at which point Bobo says to him  "Mr. Ashton can't help you sir" @ 28:24 http://www.wftv.com/video/28052959/index.html

After he is finished testifying he motions Lippman and they both leave the courtroom then Ashton says something to LDB at which point he also leaves the courtroom (more than likely to check on Geo)

Then remembering pre-trial the motion by Lippman to allow them to sit through the entire trial.  The Prosecution had no objection, the dufense filed an objection

During the same pre-trial Lippman was asking about seating for his clients and the prosecution offered two of their allotted seats for them.

Move to day one of trial and opening statements, after which Lippman releases a statement about how it is not true and appears on NG and any other show that would have him.  He told NG that they knew 6 weeks before trial that the dufense was going this way but did not know they would go this far and add all the extra bits.

Mother's day Cindy marches herself down to the jail to see Casey even though she has not heard if she will see her.  Cindy has had 3 years to March her butt down there and during those three years many special days have passed and she never went.  was it because of Mother's day? that the trial would be starting soon?  a combination?  or something else?

I do not feel these are all coincidences.  IMO as soon as Lippman heard 6 weeks ago where the defense was going to defend ICA he had a coming to Jesus meeting with the Rosebuds.  They then contacted the prosecution and had a chat.  I also believe this is why the prosecution did not object to them sitting through the trail and offered them seats.  It is clear that Jeff will be the one dealing with Geo and I feel that was also arranged.  Cindy going to visit ICA was to let her know they knew what was going to happen and to try to talk her out of it and to let her know that at least Geo (we have not seen how Cindy will react yet) will not be supporting this insanity.  What better day than on Mother's day just before trial starts to hope that she got through to ICA's heart.  But ICA would not see her so she left a large amount of money in her account to let her know they still loved her.  All JMO and one thought on the big switch we have seen Geo make this week.

[akmom]

But what freezer?

LP floated a theory that a freezer in the garage had been replaced.  I would never go on that as gospel, but it has always bothered me that when Tony picked Casey up at the Amscot, he said that she had frozen food with her and for some reason he thought she had brought it from her parents' home.  I would have to go back and get the link from his depo, but I cannot keep those things straight EVER, so   I have to say IIRC.

[Puzzler]

Does anyone else remember?

Don't we know from the autopsy that the duct tape was put on Caylee while she was alive?  Not after being deceased....but on a live Caylee.  I seem to remember that's the way it was.  That would mean that the tape is ultimately the death weapon.

Yes Dr G said the tape was placed on the body pre-mortem..not post mortem..which means she was alive.

I still think that syringe found at the scene in the bottle, still having chloroform after all those months was part of the death.  I think she gave her the shot to relax her , knock her out, and then put the tape on her mouth and nose..wrapping it tightly into her hair..knowing Caylee would not be able to then remove the tape.

I also think George has done many things wrong in the past, things he is not proud of, and things that ultimately hindered this investigation....he said so today in so many words when Baez had him in cross....he also said he wishes he had done and handled some things differently.  I think we have to take him at his word..this is sworn testimony in a murder trial involving the DP and his daughter.


I do not believe that George sexually abused Casey in any way..and Tony's testimony yesterday proved that she lied..too bad that the jury will not hear that at this time.

His testimony also made it clear that Lee did not sexually abuse her..again too bad the jury will not hear that.

One thing sociopaths do is use a tool called gaslighting. 

It can be physical..The Manson Family used to love to break into people's houses and rearrange things..but not take anything..just for the thrill of messing with someone's mind and sense of security.

It can also be emotional/mental confusion of facts..as in lying in such a way to change certain facts but keep a few ..and tell that lie to enough people and it becomes the truth..when infact it never was that way.  This is one way they keep constant  control in their environment and the environment of those they are trying to manipulate.

Had any of these people, friends, met her family and each other to compare notes prior to all this the jig would have been up.  She was very careful to operate on a method of keeping people somewhat separate from one another.

No matter how much I disliked George and Cindy prior to this..I do believe they have turned a corner, whatever the reason is their business.  Caylee deserves that..and it appears he is coming through for Caylee with a truthful testimony. 

As far as the evil secret in the house ..in the family..I believe that evil secet was Casey.  They were already talking to a counselor , trying to get help and advice.
Casey was the ugly secret they were hiding..they just never thought the lying, stealing, and antisocial behavior would get as bad as it did.  They were ready to take Caylee from her..they knew she was not a good mom.  But they did not see her purposely hurting Caylee.  I firmly believe that.

Gypsy DD - TY

BBM - is what I think happened, too.

Also, agree the ugly family secret was the EVIL KC.  She not only killed her own flesh and blood, but, IMO, she was planning to kill G&C, too.  I couldn't believe it today when Judge Perry said that the next obvious question was she planning to kill George and Cindy.  She has also financially destroyed the A's (over $48,000) no shame about not working, feeling of entitlement that she should "just" have whatever she wanted and a deep rage over anyone who didn't do exactly as KC thought they should, stealing from family, daughter's piggy bank, friend Amy, etc. 

[KCJackie]

It "appears" that Blowhole "believes" there were several notices left by the postal service, (certified letter from Johnson's Towing) but George & Cindy admit to only one.

It makes me wonder........did KC destroy the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd notices????
We know she was going in & out of her house repeatedly when C & G weren't home.
We know from Cindy's deposition KC was intercepting the mail to keep Cindy from getting her statements for her Visa Card. Cindy had paid the balance & thought she closed the account. KC in turn charged roughly $4000.00 before she got a call from the bank. She knew KC was intercepting the mail because the bank must have informed her statements were being mailed to her every month.

KC did not want them to know her car was towed....no way, no how.
She was on a mission to avoid her parents for as long as possible. She knew the longer Cindy didn't find her, the less evidence would be found of Caylee, with Caylee & in her car. She knew d@mn well it would be towed. There were posted signs in the amscot parking lot.

I've just about convinced myself of this theory.....Blowhole was so sure of himself in court today regarding the  "several" notices being left by the USPS for the certified letter from Johnson's. Wayyyyy tooooo sure, IMO!

  Great post Seemeatthebeach!!

[texasmom]

::snipping2::

I don't trust him either - he had a meeting with Mason and bozo not too long before this trial as NG posted a letter talking about it. He made the remark about them asking him some questions.

I am sorry, but I put NOTHING past anyone in this family and as for his appearing sincere, he did way back when he was claiming to be searching for Caylee and he was at his girlfriend's house ripping her off for money.

KC does have all the symptoms of someone abused, but a sociopath will manipulate people to make it appear as if she has them. I have very mixed emotions about the sexual abuse allegation. He is a classic sociopath as is KC. I don't believe that would be why she had no emotions over Caylee. That is a hell of a leap to get from sexual abuse to killing your baby and exhibiting no emotions. Even an accidental death would provoke emotions, not gang banging guys. She did not think they would ever find Caylee & if the truth is known she put that log you see so often in pictures over her to keep her from being seen. The deep water most likely dislodged the bags with the body when it rose so rapidly in the hurricane.

I have never thought she "accidentally" killed her with chloroform. I have always felt like she killed her in a fit of rage. She may have been trying to use the chloroform and Caylee fought her which provoked her into that same type of rage, or little Caylee may have been crying for her grandmother and the hate for Cindy and the baby crying for her kicked her off. I also think she was into meth. When she first went to jail she slept for 3 days solid they said. That is usually a good indicator of coming off some type of speed.

If you look at that jail tape where she would drawing up her fists and screaming at her parents it would be easy to imagine her doing that to little Caylee and slamming her down or hitting her. I think LE thought that too because they took sheet rock out of that house. I think they were looking for blood on it.

I've thought the same.   

Thoughts of little Caylee crying for Cindy being related to the duct tape cross my mind a lot.   

[Scatty]

I wanted to believe that George had manned up.  Now, I cannot shake the niggling feeling that this may have been in the works and it was known.  With the way they have been acting and thinking this whole time, George may very well have decided to fall on the sword to save Casey's life.  I remember at some point one of the Anthony's  said that they had lost their grand daughter and could not lose their daughter too.  Remember that George was asked by Baez(wasn't it just within the last couple of weeks?), would he do ANYTHING for his daughter????  Was that a sign from Baez that this was a go, and the plan was in place? 

I wish I wasn't thinking this.....

You're not alone with these suspicions. I can't just throw away years of suspicion of George and his antics and covering up. This may be about creating reasonable doubt in the eyes of the jury. JB will agree to come on like the bad guy thus creating sympathy for George in the public eye (not the jury's which supposedly doesn't know much about the case), actually rehabilitating him as a sympathetic character which might help his future career as a missing children's advocate. Instead of being considered a child molester, he'll be the victimized father. I don't know that I completely buy the George/Jose antagonist act. This might be just that--an act.Remember how we felt when listening to him take on Morgan? The jurors might be getting the same impression right now. Remember also the visit that Lippman said the As recently had with Baez? It had to have been discussed. I'm also a little leary of Lippmans threats on the A's behalf of going after Baez. It just doesn't ring true. He ought to know that Baez can pretty much do what he pleases with an opening statement.

Something's not right with this whole scenario.

[Curly]

Does anyone else remember?

Don't we know from the autopsy that the duct tape was put on Caylee while she was alive?  Not after being deceased....but on a live Caylee.  I seem to remember that's the way it was.  That would mean that the tape is ultimately the death weapon.

Yes Dr G said the tape was placed on the body pre-mortem..not post mortem..which means she was alive.

I still think that syringe found at the scene in the bottle, still having chloroform after all those months was part of the death.  I think she gave her the shot to relax her , knock her out, and then put the tape on her mouth and nose..wrapping it tightly into her hair..knowing Caylee would not be able to then remove the tape.

I also think George has done many things wrong in the past, things he is not proud of, and things that ultimately hindered this investigation....he said so today in so many words when Baez had him in cross....he also said he wishes he had done and handled some things differently.  I think we have to take him at his word..this is sworn testimony in a murder trial involving the DP and his daughter.


I do not believe that George sexually abused Casey in any way..and Tony's testimony yesterday proved that she lied..too bad that the jury will not hear that at this time.

His testimony also made it clear that Lee did not sexually abuse her..again too bad the jury will not hear that.

One thing sociopaths do is use a tool called gaslighting. 

It can be physical..The Manson Family used to love to break into people's houses and rearrange things..but not take anything..just for the thrill of messing with someone's mind and sense of security.

It can also be emotional/mental confusion of facts..as in lying in such a way to change certain facts but keep a few ..and tell that lie to enough people and it becomes the truth..when infact it never was that way.  This is one way they keep constant  control in their environment and the environment of those they are trying to manipulate.

Had any of these people, friends, met her family and each other to compare notes prior to all this the jig would have been up.  She was very careful to operate on a method of keeping people somewhat separate from one another.

No matter how much I disliked George and Cindy prior to this..I do believe they have turned a corner, whatever the reason is their business.  Caylee deserves that..and it appears he is coming through for Caylee with a truthful testimony. 

As far as the evil secret in the house ..in the family..I believe that evil secet was Casey.  They were already talking to a counselor , trying to get help and advice.
Casey was the ugly secret they were hiding..they just never thought the lying, stealing, and antisocial behavior would get as bad as it did.  They were ready to take Caylee from her..they knew she was not a good mom.  But they did not see her purposely hurting Caylee.  I firmly believe that.

Great post, Gypsy. Totally agree.

[Northern Rose]

I'm certainly poking where I don't have any knowledge -- but, it seems the mouth is not the only orifice you would have to tape. I would guess that the duct tape is either the "murder weapon" or an attempt to make it look like a kidnapping.

Could it be that two days following the death of Caylee ... the mouth was the only opening that was obviously excreting body fluids?

Janet

Not probable. If Caylee was in a postion that allowed the fluids to escape through the mouth easier than any other place, they would also have been leaking from her nose and ears. (sorry for the graphic)

[wreck]

Does anyone else remember?

Don't we know from the autopsy that the duct tape was put on Caylee while she was alive?  Not after being deceased....but on a live Caylee.  I seem to remember that's the way it was.  That would mean that the tape is ultimately the death weapon.

Yes Dr G said the tape was placed on the body pre-mortem..not post mortem..which means she was alive.

I still think that syringe found at the scene in the bottle, still having chloroform after all those months was part of the death.  I think she gave her the shot to relax her , knock her out, and then put the tape on her mouth and nose..wrapping it tightly into her hair..knowing Caylee would not be able to then remove the tape.

I also think George has done many things wrong in the past, things he is not proud of, and things that ultimately hindered this investigation....he said so today in so many words when Baez had him in cross....he also said he wishes he had done and handled some things differently.  I think we have to take him at his word..this is sworn testimony in a murder trial involving the DP and his daughter.


I do not believe that George sexually abused Casey in any way..and Tony's testimony yesterday proved that she lied..too bad that the jury will not hear that at this time.

His testimony also made it clear that Lee did not sexually abuse her..again too bad the jury will not hear that.

One thing sociopaths do is use a tool called gaslighting. 

It can be physical..The Manson Family used to love to break into people's houses and rearrange things..but not take anything..just for the thrill of messing with someone's mind and sense of security.

It can also be emotional/mental confusion of facts..as in lying in such a way to change certain facts but keep a few ..and tell that lie to enough people and it becomes the truth..when infact it never was that way.  This is one way they keep constant  control in their environment and the environment of those they are trying to manipulate.

Had any of these people, friends, met her family and each other to compare notes prior to all this the jig would have been up.  She was very careful to operate on a method of keeping people somewhat separate from one another.

No matter how much I disliked George and Cindy prior to this..I do believe they have turned a corner, whatever the reason is their business.  Caylee deserves that..and it appears he is coming through for Caylee with a truthful testimony. 

As far as the evil secret in the house ..in the family..I believe that evil secet was Casey.  They were already talking to a counselor , trying to get help and advice.
Casey was the ugly secret they were hiding..they just never thought the lying, stealing, and antisocial behavior would get as bad as it did.  They were ready to take Caylee from her..they knew she was not a good mom.  But they did not see her purposely hurting Caylee.  I firmly believe that.

I agree with you -- well stated! If indeed the autopsy states that the duct tape was put ther "PRE-MORTEM" -- the defense has NO prayer trying to say that Caylee drowned during a tryst with Casey and George. SURELY the Defense is not stupid enough to try to pull that off when the report will clearly quash that! ..................... oh. neverminnd!