Lively Case Discussion #594 3/29 - 4/1/2007

[Elaine]

I know they are all liars, but I've always thought that the path to truth in this case is marked by the lies that were told. Anytime a lie can be identified, I really believe it's for a reason: contrived to draw attention from the truth. The junctures where they occur are important, IMO.

Which is the main reason we all feel that Joran is GUILTY. Well, that is why I feel he is, anyways. IMO

[Elaine]

I'm missing something................the witness at 11:00pm would have seen Joran before he even went to C&C's, right? So Joran would have been referring to Deepak and Satish picking him up to go to the bar, right?

So Natalee wouldn't be expected to be with Joran then, and I don't get the connection to why "them" would be Natalee and Joran at 4:00am. It may have been, but I don't see the relationship.

Paulus is trying to say he picked Joran up at 11:00, (I didn't think there was a witness to this?) and that Deepak picked Joran back up at the house AFTER Paulus took him home say 11:30ish? and that Joran snuck back outta the house to go to CNC, w/o Paulus knowing..... However, Paulus must have also said at some point that he picked Joran and Natalee up at 4:00. Now, Paulus denies ever saying that he picked anybody up at 4:00. Do I have this right?Anyone?

That all sounds right. You left out the sweating, though.

 

[Anna]

I'm missing something................the witness at 11:00pm would have seen Joran before he even went to C&C's, right? So Joran would have been referring to Deepak and Satish picking him up to go to the bar, right?

So Natalee wouldn't be expected to be with Joran then, and I don't get the connection to why "them" would be Natalee and Joran at 4:00am. It may have been, but I don't see the relationship.

Paulus is trying to say he picked Joran up at 11:00, (I didn't think there was a witness to this?) and that Deepak picked Joran back up at the house AFTER Paulus took him home say 11:30ish? and that Joran snuck back outta the house to go to CNC, w/o Paulus knowing..... However, Paulus must have also said at some point that he picked Joran and Natalee up at 4:00. Now, Paulus denies ever saying that he picked anybody up at 4:00. Do I have this right?Anyone?

That is my understanding of what was said, Elaine.  Also we have the statement by Paulus of taking "them" to the HI also that just came to light recently.   But prior to that, what you posted was the way I read what was said as well.

Not saying I agree that it is true, just that it is what was said.  And remember Paulus saying this was why we were originally told he was arrested.  All that was later shuffled around but that is what was first said.

.

[crazybabyborg]

I know they are all liars, but I've always thought that the path to truth in this case is marked by the lies that were told. Anytime a lie can be identified, I really believe it's for a reason: contrived to draw attention from the truth. The junctures where they occur are important, IMO.

Which is the main reason we all feel that Joran is GUILTY. Well, that is why I feel he is, anyways. IMO

EXACTLY! That's also why we know the shoes are incriminating, etc,etc.
Watching the answers, when they change, when there's elaborate explanation, etc. is very revealing.

[Elaine]

I know they are all liars, but I've always thought that the path to truth in this case is marked by the lies that were told. Anytime a lie can be identified, I really believe it's for a reason: contrived to draw attention from the truth. The junctures where they occur are important, IMO.

Which is the main reason we all feel that Joran is GUILTY. Well, that is why I feel he is, anyways. IMO

I just feel that there would be no reason to tell all those lies if someone was so innocent. How many versions did Joran give, I lost count. Because he was scared, he says? Yes, I'll bet he was scared. Scared of getting caught in his crime. Scared of getting caught doing something bad to Natalee. Scared of going to jail for a long time. That is all he was scared of, not because Daddy and Mommy would be mad. JMHO

[Elaine]

That is my understanding of what was said, Elaine.  Also we have the statement by Paulus of taking "them" to the HI also that just came to light recently.   But prior to that, what you posted was the way I read what was said as well.

Not saying I agree that it is true, just that it is what was said.  And remember Paulus saying this was why we were originally told he was arrested.  All that was later shuffled around but that is what was first said.

.

I really am at a loss of what to beleive as far as when he got home or with whom (Joran). But, I will always beleive that Joran did something to Natalee. Unless someone proves me wrong! That is just how I feel, Joran did something bad. And, he wants to get away with it.

[Anna]

I think all the different versions are just to obfuscate and confuse in part and also because Joran and Paulus kept refining the story according to the need that arose.

Perhaps Lorenzo is the one who doesn't appreciate being drawn into this.  Maybe he is the one who has asked to be removed from the book because he had nothing to do with it and is not related to the Sloots in any manner whatsoever.

Or the Gottenfros since one of them was reportedly recently in The Netherlands?  Doesn't have to be Guido as I don't think he can ask to be removed since he is listed as a suspect, isn't he?  At least he was questioned for suspicion of heavy battery which is a fact whether he likes it or not.

.

[Elaine]

I know they are all liars, but I've always thought that the path to truth in this case is marked by the lies that were told. Anytime a lie can be identified, I really believe it's for a reason: contrived to draw attention from the truth. The junctures where they occur are important, IMO.

Which is the main reason we all feel that Joran is GUILTY. Well, that is why I feel he is, anyways. IMO

EXACTLY! That's also why we know the shoes are incriminating, etc,etc.
Watching the answers, when they change, when there's elaborate explanation, etc. is very revealing.

It seems to me now that he has his latest story "downpact", that he sound "scripted" when he talks. Like he is reading from an imaginary script in his mind. That is just how I see him lately.

[Elaine]

I think all the different versions are just to obfuscate and confuse in part and also because Joran and Paulus kept refining the story according to the need that arose.

Perhaps Lorenzo is the one who doesn't appreciate being drawn into this.  Maybe he is the one who has asked to be removed from the book because he had nothing to do with it and is not related to the Sloots in any manner whatsoever.

Or the Gottenfros since one of them was reportedly recently in The Netherlands?  Doesn't have to be Guido as I don't think he can ask to be removed since he is listed as a suspect, isn't he?  At least he was questioned for suspicion of heavy battery which is a fact whether he likes it or not.
As far as I know, he is still a suspect. Which makes me wonder, can he be held as suspect status for two years also. If so, then he would remain suspect, after the others are cleared.
.

[crazybabyborg]

My Dad was an Insurance adjuster for many years before he opened an agency, and as such, had testified in court many times. When I found myself required to testify in a case as an adult for the first time, I was nervous just because of the whole setting. He told me something that helped a lot, and it's absolutely true.

He said that if you tell the truth, and tell it straight, no one can shake you. It may come out forward, backward, or through the back door in response to various phrasing of questions, but it will stand scrutiny. He went on to say that liars rarely can talk at length when being questioned with any skill without tripping up in small ways.

He's right. The more Joran talks, in interviews, books, on the internet, whatever..............the inconsistancies just mount up. He's lying, lying, lying. His fear of the truth is far greater than his fear of messing up. He's so arrogant, he believes he's above tripping up when he's actually stumbling around like he's wearing size 28 shoes!

[Elaine]

I think all the different versions are just to obfuscate and confuse in part and also because Joran and Paulus kept refining the story according to the need that arose.

Perhaps Lorenzo is the one who doesn't appreciate being drawn into this.  Maybe he is the one who has asked to be removed from the book because he had nothing to do with it and is not related to the Sloots in any manner whatsoever.

Or the Gottenfros since one of them was reportedly recently in The Netherlands?  Doesn't have to be Guido as I don't think he can ask to be removed since he is listed as a suspect, isn't he?  At least he was questioned for suspicion of heavy battery which is a fact whether he likes it or not.
As far as I know, he is still a suspect. Which makes me wonder, can he be held as suspect status for two years also. If so, then he would remain suspect, after the others are cleared.
.

somehow I hit that wrong and my reply ended up in the bottom of Anna's post, LOL, sorry!

[crazybabyborg]

I know they are all liars, but I've always thought that the path to truth in this case is marked by the lies that were told. Anytime a lie can be identified, I really believe it's for a reason: contrived to draw attention from the truth. The junctures where they occur are important, IMO.

Which is the main reason we all feel that Joran is GUILTY. Well, that is why I feel he is, anyways. IMO

I just feel that there would be no reason to tell all those lies if someone was so innocent. How many versions did Joran give, I lost count. Because he was scared, he says? Yes, I'll bet he was scared. Scared of getting caught in his crime. Scared of getting caught doing something bad to Natalee. Scared of going to jail for a long time. That is all he was scared of, not because Daddy and Mommy would be mad. JMHO

Scared enough to lie to the face of police when they show up at your house and scared enough to point an accusing finger at 2 security guards, and scared enough to face down Natalee's parents with lies. The truth must have been really scary.

[Elaine]

My Dad was an Insurance adjuster for many years before he opened an agency, and as such, had testified in court many times. When I found myself required to testify in a case as an adult for the first time, I was nervous just because of the whole setting. He told me something that helped a lot, and it's absolutely true.

He said that if you tell the truth, and tell it straight, no one can shake you. It may come out forward, backward, or through the back door in response to various phrasing of questions, but it will stand scrutiny. He went on to say that liars rarely can talk at length when being questioned with any skill without tripping up in small ways.

He's right. The more Joran talks, in interviews, books, on the internet, whatever..............the inconsistancies just mount up. He's lying, lying, lying. His fear of the truth is far greater than his fear of messing up. He's so arrogant, he believes he's above tripping up when he's actually stumbling around like he's wearing size 28 shoes!

And yet people buy his BS!

[crazybabyborg]

I don't have ANY explanation for why there are those who believe Joran. I understand folks in Aruba WANTING to believe him, but I don't know how they can if they've followed the case enough to know the facts. Of course, Greta baffles me there, too.

[Elaine]

Scared enough to lie to the face of police when they show up at your house and scared enough to point an accusing finger at 2 security guards, and scared enough to face down Natalee's parents with lies. The truth must have been really scary.

And yet to pound on his chest like he did to Beth, when she said "I want my daughter." He ponded his chest, and said sarcastically "What do you want me to do about that."  He can be glad that wasn't me over there. I would've lost it. I think Beth handled herself quite well, by not smacking him upside his head.

[igsigs]

Of course she will say that is not what she meant, yeah, then what did she mean?! She needs to get back on that broom!!

And I would be happy to give her instructions on exactly how to mount it, too!

   

[crazybabyborg]

I'm experiencing heavy lid syndrome!  

I'm going to leave this for Cat, and wish everyone a goodbight and God Bless!


Cat: would terrified chickens do for your Easter Outfit??  

[carpe noctem]

I'm experiencing heavy lid syndrome!  

I'm going to leave this for Cat, and wish everyone a goodbight and God Bless!


Cat: would terrified chickens do for your Easter Outfit??  

nighty cbb


good sleepin!  

[igsigs]

Perhaps Lorenzo is the one who doesn't appreciate being drawn into this....

Hmmm...there's a thought. Mr. Recluse is a good candidate.

[Elaine]

I guess I'd better go to retire here for a while. I get so upset over the fact that Natalee's parents have no closure. It just isn't fair. Goodnight Monkeys. Pray for Justice!