Lively Case Discussion #601 4/15 - 4/17/2007

[yapperz1]

Hiya Monkeys

Had read back & saw where a "salad" was discussed last night. Searched & this is what I found:

http://tinyurl.com/2ukpla

Sunday, October 16, 2005
This was sent to me in an email
WHERE IS NATALEE HOLLOWAY?

The original lie was that Natalee was dropped off at the Holiday Inn and approached by two security guards, a description of whom was given in enough detail that two such men were quickly identified and arrested. Her body was hidden where the original lie says it is, period: The high rise hotel strip area, near Marriott and Holiday Inn. The most harmless scenario for the three boys involved was to say that they quickly dispatched Natalee back to her hotel since it was observed that she may have been tipsy at the time she was seen driving off with them. Furthermore, it has been said that Natalee did return to her hotel room briefly to retrieve something and left again and so, in the event that someone may have seen Kalpoe's car in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn subsequent to leaving Carlos and Charlie's while she got something from her room, they had to cover for the car potentially being seen near the Holiday Inn. Therefore, the story was concocted BEFORE the hiding location near Holiday Inn or Mariott was chosen, and her body was placed where it was in order to support the original lie.

2001 Aruba trip report describing an "Old Hotel's" remnants Near the Marriott & Holiday Inn "we walked past Marriott to where an old hotel once stood and old craft stalls were. This area also had windsurfing booths set up for young and old.. Pretty trashy, no luck but best area for finding many seashells."

The story-fabricators also selected two security guards known as regularly patrolling in the vicinity of said hiding place as the scapegoats. The body-hiding consultant being familiar with a hiding place close to Natalee's hotel, the Holiday Inn. In other words, the body-hiding consultant has been to this hiding place before, it was not a quick, random choice or created for the occasion. Ergo, her body will be found within the security guards' customary patrol area. (This does not mean that the body-hiding consultant has hidden other bodies but he may know of the existence of other bodies in the selected hiding place).

Why were the guards singled out and not "a stranger" or nobody? Why bring a potential perpetrator into the alibi at all? This tells you that Joran and the Kalpoes do know that something happened to Natalee and it tells you that they all concocted a story that might fly in the event that the hiding place in *THE GUARDS CUSTOMARY PATROL AREA* is found with Natalee inside. It also tells you that Steve Croes was the one who suggested the body-hiding place close to where his boat is usually anchored. So Croes knows the Kalpoes better than he says since they brought him into it early on with the initial intention of using his boat and before fine-tuning the original alibi. Croes discouraged that idea, not wanting to participate, suggesting instead the guard story along with a good hiding place near Holiday Inn that he was familiar with since this is his territory. He knows the security guards' patrol routine and could describe them in detail. Croes is the one that the guards need to be mad at. Why did these two, specific individuals come to mind when they were not even on duty that night instead of some random, fabricated individual? Because Croes had to duck those two guards in the past while visiting the hiding location for a different reason and therefore the guards were the first scapegoats to come to mind when fabricating a story about how Natalee will have come to be found in the location of the guards' customary, nightly patrol.

The location of Natalee is further confirmed and identified by the second, (adjusted), story which is currently that the Kalpoe brothers dropped Natalee and Joran off alone on the beach near the Marriott. This is also a lie. (since they did not allude to the fact that Natalee was now deceased when dropped off there with Joran) The adjustment in the story indicates that her location may be closest to the Marriott in particular. The body of Natalee Holloway was hidden on land in the Palm Beach area of the hotels. To frame the security guards, she could not be put out to sea and potentially disappear forever because the Kalpoe's car might have been observed waiting at the Holiday Inn while Natalee retrieved something from her room. The body was put in a place where it could be found. Her body was meant to be discovered, initially THE BODY WAS HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT. The intention of the original lie was to frame the guards and absolve Joran and two Kalpoes of being the last people to have Natalee in their possession, a better scenario all around since Croes did not want to involve himself or his boat. It is said that Paulus Van Der Sloot made the statement that there is "no case without a body", to the boys. This probably precipitated a call to Croes to use his boat.

WHAT HAPPENED TO NATALEE HOLLOWAY?

Joran and the Kalpoe brothers did not deliver Natalee to the beachfront, high rise strip and leave. They only stopped by for Natalee to get something from her room and then they all left together. They may have driven around some and they may even have visited the lighthouse as stated but, ultimately the Kalpoe brothers dropped Natalee and Joran both off at the Van Der Sloot residence where Joran has his own apartment, separate from the main house. The currently held scenario is that Paulus Van Der Sloot had picked Joran up from a McDonalds around 11:00 p.m., took him home and then went about his business, assuming that Joran was home for the night. Did Joran or Paulus bring a "walnut salad" home from McDonalds? That was mentioned.

It is also currently held that Joran sneaked out off the property at some point and went to Carlos and Charlie's where he met back up with Natalee who was to return home the following morning.

The Van Der Sloot property has a pool and is gated. My contacts say that Natalee fell off a gate. They also describe a "Victorian Pool", which means that there may be a gazebo there or something Victorian about the surrounding area or the home. This pool, (or the gate) according to them, is supposed to be angular in some way. The angular comment could possibly apply to an angular object near the gate that she fell onto. It's difficult to tell the context of the angular remark. My contacts describe Natalee as "dopy" at the time she fell off the gate so it is not to say that going to a boy's home in the middle of the night is something that she would ordinarily do. So the Kalpoe brothers dropped Joran and Natalee back at Joran's house and this gate may have been closed and locked. It could be that the gate was not locked, but simply that opening it would have made enough noise to alert Daddy Van Der Sloot to a returning Joran and his company. Natalee either fell off the Van Der Sloot gate sneaking onto the premises with Joran or she had to climb that gate a second time trying to run away from the property.

I think that she was trying to run away and I think that she may have been "taken advantage of", prior. In any case, she fell from the gate and was injured to an unknown degree. This is when Paulus Van Der Sloot becomes aware and involved and the Kalpoe brothers were called back to the residence to discuss the details of where their car and Joran in particular might have been seen with Natalee after Joran sneaked out and met up with her. This, because she was in bad shape or unconscious by the time Paulus Van Der Sloot comes into play. I believe that the Kalpoe cell phone record of the first call from Joran is going to show that Kalpoe was called from the Van Der Sloot home to come there and help remove Natalee; Not to pick up Joran from the Marriott area as they all now say. This would be why there was blood in the Kalpoe car. If they dropped off a deceased Natalee and Joran near the Marriott to meet the body-hider, they may have changed their story to Marriott beach to explain their car potentially being seen there. That's why the current lie reveals and refines Natalee's location as closer to the Marriott rather than the Holiday Inn. They are all still in cohoots but currently, the Kalpoes are trying to distance themselves from further involvement with Natalee once they dropped her and Joran at Van Der Sloots', since they were not at the scene when she died but they do have to cover for the first call received from Jorran, and they needed to cover for the potential of their car being seen at Marriott beach.

My contacts continually cite Paulus Van Der Sloot as the killer and they observe Natalee with tape or something was over her mouth. Because of this, I suspect that it was Paulus who suggested application of the tape or a gag while she was unconscious lest she come to and start hollering, and she suffocated or otherwise succumbed to her injuries while Paulus and Joran were trying to figure out what to do about her. I have mention of her being in a garage at a certain point in this, but I don't know if Van Der Sloots have a garage. If so, that's where they had her. I do not think that her death was intentional and it could be that they would have taken her to the hospital, but I do think that a trip to the hospital was not immediately undertaken as they discussed what to do with the circumstances at hand. She was probably at death's door and possibly showing evidence of being "taken advantage of" by the son. The circumstances had the potential to create a career derailing scandal for "The Judge" and she died as options were being weighed.

WHO HID NATALEE HOLLOWAY?

I don't think that Van Der Sloot, Sr. has ever had to dispose of a body before but he is in the position to know who would and could. He or Joran knew somebody on the Island in need of exchanging favors and my contacts are naming Lorenzo Van Rijn as that person. I don't know if they are related. Once the cover story was agreed upon between Van Der Sloot, Sr., Joran, the Kalpoes, Croe, and possibly some other confidants who were asked for advice, I believe that Lorenzo was called. He was asked to stash her and Natalee was taken by Joran with the returning Kalpoe(s) in Kalpoe's car to Lorenzo to remove the rest of the party except Joran from culpability for the actual disposal of Natalee. They most likely wanted Kalpoe(s) to take her to Lorenzo alone but they declined to go without Joran and possibly be held liable for the incident. Kalpoe(s) then dropped Natalee and Joran off with Lorenzo and the Kalpoes went home. Joran advises Kalpoe that he will be in contact via the internet later as a means to avoid more cell phone contact. I believe the Kalpoe mother is aware that the boy(s) left the house again.

After Natalee was hidden, Joran most likely walked home as he currently states. All of their stories are going to have an element of truth in order to cover potentially having been seen. I don't think that Lorenzo would be stupid enough to be seen dropping Joran back at the crime scene and I'm sure that daddy was cowering on the premises in a state of shock while she was being disposed of; hence text message to Deepak from Joran that he got home okay; indicating that the hiding task was completed without incident.

#1. Guard 1, (freed) #2. Guard 2, (freed) #3. Kalpoe 1,driver, (detained) #4. Kalpoe 2, story substantiator, (detained) #5 Kalpoe Mama, complicity, she knows her boy(s) did not stay home and went back out that night, (unsuspected) #6 Van Der Sloot 1, Romeo, (detained) #7 Van Der Sloot 2, technically the killer, (freed) #8 Croes, body-hiding consultant, (freed) #9 Van Rijn, body-hider, (unsuspected)
***
posted by I_Hate_Stupid_People at 1:19 PM

[Lala'sMom]

The campus shooting is terrible.  I just can't believe that many people are dead.  Sends shivers through any parent that has a child in college.  That includes me of course.  

[BTgirl]

The campus shooting is terrible.  I just can't believe that many people are dead.  Sends shivers through any parent that has a child in college.  That includes me of course.  

Foxnews.com is now saying 22 dead.  

BLACKSBURG, Va. —  At least 22 are dead after a shooting at Virginia Tech University Monday morning, the campus police chief said.

Police said there was only one shooter and he is now dead. They are unsure if the shooter was a student.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266310,00.html

[Dayhiker]

O/T - AT LEAST 1 DEAD, 17 WOUNDED IN TWO SHOOTINGS ON VIRGINIA TECH CAMPUS; 1 SUSPECT IN CUSTODY

**Watch FOX News Channel or go to http://foxnews.com for more

They are saying now 20 dead  

Chief: At least 20 dead in campus shootings
POSTED: 12:32 p.m. EDT, April 16, 2007

• NEW: Police chief says at least 20 people are dead, some of them students
• University reporting that a suspected shooter is in custody, another sought
• AP: 1 dead, 1 wounded in first reported shooting on Virginia Tech campus
• Student describes situation as "mayhem"; says 2 students jumped from window



(CNN) -- The Virginia Tech Police Chief said at least 20 people were killed in twin shootings on the Blacksburg campus Monday morning.

"Some victims were shot in a classroom," Chief Wendell Flinchum said, adding that the gunman was dead.

President Charles Steger called the shootings "a tragedy of monumental proportions."

A hospital spokeswoman told The Associated Press that 17 Virginia Tech students were being treated for gunshot wounds and other injuries. Sharon Honaker at the Carilion New River Valley Medical Center told CNN that four patients had been transported there, one in critical condition.

One person was killed and others were wounded at multiple locations inside a dormitory about 7:15 a.m., Flinchum said. Two hours later, another shooting at Norris Hall, an engineering building, resulted in multiple casualties, the university reported. (Watch police, ambulances hustle to the scene )

The first reported shooting occurred at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a co-ed dormitory that houses 895 students. The dormitory, one of the largest residence halls on the 2,600-acre campus, is located near the drill field and stadium.

Amie Steele, editor-in-chief of the campus newspaper, said one of her reporters at the dormitory reported "mass chaos."

The reporter said there were "lots of students running around, going crazy, and the police officers were trying to settle everyone down and keep everything under control," according to Steele.

Kristyn Heiser said she was in class about 9:30 a.m. when she and her classmates saw about six gun-wielding police officers run by a window.

"We were like, 'What's going on?' Because this definitely is a quaint town where stuff doesn't really happen. It's pretty boring here," said Heiser during a phone interview as she sat on her classroom floor.

Student Matt Waldron said he did not hear the gunshots because he was listening to music, but he heard police sirens and saw officers hiding behind trees with their guns drawn.

"They told us to get out of there so we ran across the drill field as quick as we could," he said.

Waldron described the scene on campus as "mayhem." (Watch a student's recording of police responding to loud bangs )

"It was kind of scary," he said. "These two kids I guess had panicked and jumped out of the top story window and the one kid broke his ankle and the other girl was not in good shape just lying on the ground."

Madison Van Duyne said she and her classmates in a media writing class were on "lockdown" in their classrooms. They were huddled in the middle of the classroom, writing stories about the shootings and posting them online.

The university is updating its 26,000 students through e-mails, and an Internet webcam is broadcasting live pictures of the campus.

The shootings came three days after a bomb threat Friday forced the cancellation of classes in three buildings, WDBJ in Roanoke reported. Also, the 100,000-square-foot Torgersen Hall was evacuated April 2 after police received a written bomb threat, The Roanoke Times reported.

After the Monday shootings, students were instructed to stay indoors and away from windows, police at the university said.

"A gunman is loose on campus. Stay in buildings until further notice. Stay away from all windows," read a warning from the university.

"Virginia Tech has canceled all classes. Those on campus are asked to remain where they are, lock their doors and stay away from windows. Persons off campus are asked not to come to campus," a statement on the university Web site said.

[Anna]

Anna wrote;

Four sizes is a lot. I sort of doubt any of them wore a Size 14 and maybe Joran felt safe giving that size as he was pretty sure no one would find a shoe that large just lying around somewhere.

Anna, let me ask, why do you feel that none of them wore that size shoe?

Brought forward from last night's shoe discussion:


Because Joran wouldn't want any others involved having forensics taken from their DNA either.  I believe Jossy and my lying eyes more than I do Joran and his ALE buddies.

No, I don't think they ever seriously looked for any shoe, either.  If they wouldn't look for Natalee any better than they did and blocked others from looking, what are the chances that they looked seriously for the non-existent shoe?

JMO but do read the article at GetaGrip's website for the Dutch Interrogator measuring Joran's foot inside the 10.5.

.

[Lala'sMom]

Do we have any monkeys with students there?  Does anyone know?

[Anna]

Drudge Reporting 21 dead, 21 injured.  That is a huge number!  I am praying it is wrong and many of the injured were mistakenly counted among the dead.

Anyone hear anything as to motive?

.

[Anna]

BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people and wounding another 21 before he was killed, police said.
On the Web site, Tech reported the shootings at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and said there were "multiple victims" at Norris Hall, an engineering building.

All entrances to the campus were closed and classes canceled through Tuesday.

"There's just a lot of commotion. It's hard to tell exactly what's going on," said student Jason Anthony Smith, 19, who lives in the dorm where shooting took place.

Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the 4th floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.

"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."

"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the Internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said.

Madison Van Duyne, a student who was interviewed by telephone on CNN, said, "We are all in lockdown. Most of the students are sitting on the floors away from the windows just trying to be as safe as possible."

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

In August 2006, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus.

The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.



Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[Lala'sMom]

Anna wrote;

Four sizes is a lot. I sort of doubt any of them wore a Size 14 and maybe Joran felt safe giving that size as he was pretty sure no one would find a shoe that large just lying around somewhere.

Anna, let me ask, why do you feel that none of them wore that size shoe?

Brought forward from last night's shoe discussion:


Because Joran wouldn't want any others involved having forensics taken from their DNA either.  I believe Jossy and my lying eyes more than I do Joran and his ALE buddies.

No, I don't think they ever seriously looked for any shoe, either.  If they wouldn't look for Natalee any better than they did and blocked others from looking, what are the chances that they looked seriously for the non-existent shoe?

JMO but do read the article at GetaGrip's website for the Dutch Interrogator measuring Joran's foot inside the 10.5.

.

I will agree at this time that Joran wears a size 10.5 shoe.  You are right in saying they didn't look for any shoes.  It was all a farce.  Protect tourism at any cost.  

[Red]

http://collegemedia.com/

Monday, April 16th 2007 12:23AM
Virginia Tech police have confirmed 22 fatalities resulting from the campus shootings today. The gunman has also been confirmed dead.

Three people were escorted out of Norris Hall by police. The three were handcuffed, separated, questioned, unhandcuffed and then canine teams were sent into Norris Hall said junior computer engineer Nick Saunders who watched the events unfold from the the second floor of Randolph Hall.

According to the university, classes have been cancelled for Tuesday, April 17.

Monday, April 16th 2007 11:57AM
Three people were escorted out of Norris Hall in handcuffs by police. The three were then unhandcuffed and canine teams were sent into Norris Hall.

Following story and updates at:
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2007/04/16/one-dead-in-school-shooting-at-virginia-tech-suspect-in-custody/

[nonesuche]

Anna-

there is some word coming out now that a professor was shot first and that there were two bomb threats made there last week, all directed toward engineering education buildings? Son and I spent a weekend there during recruiting and I cannot tell you how idyllic that campus is and how lovely the people are. This is beyond tragic.......now word is the suspect was looking for his girlfriend and went into Norris Hall lining up people and shooting them execution style?

good lord, it's not been confirmed but this is so so horrible....

[Anna]

Radio news just called it worst school shooting in U.S. History.

     

[San]

Anna-

there is some word coming out now that a professor was shot first and that there were two bomb threats made there last week, all directed toward engineering education buildings? Son and I spent a weekend there during recruiting and I cannot tell you how idyllic that campus is and how lovely the people are. This is beyond tragic.......now word is the suspect was looking for his girlfriend and went into Norris Hall lining up people and shooting them execution style?

good lord, it's not been confirmed but this is so so horrible....

This guy apparently shot the guy who checks IDs before you can go to other floors.  I forgot the name they used.

[Anna]

This is so horrible I can't even wrap my mind around it!

I used to be a nervous wreck because my son had to walk by the Birmingham abortion clinic that Eric Rudolph blew up.  

Just can't imagine this large a massacre of students of all things.

National tragedy, a loss of this magnitude.  I am sure we are all in shock at this huge loss.  I just don't have words to express the horror of it.

.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Anna-

there is some word coming out now that a professor was shot first and that there were two bomb threats made there last week, all directed toward engineering education buildings? Son and I spent a weekend there during recruiting and I cannot tell you how idyllic that campus is and how lovely the people are. This is beyond tragic.......now word is the suspect was looking for his girlfriend and went into Norris Hall lining up people and shooting them execution style?

good lord, it's not been confirmed but this is so so horrible....

This guy apparently shot the guy who checks IDs before you can go to other floors.  I forgot the name they used.

R.A??  Residence Admin, or something like that?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Radio news just called it worst school shooting in U.S. History.

     

Yes, it's horrible.  Nothing is truly safe, anymore.  DH and I were just talking about it.

[San]

Anna-

there is some word coming out now that a professor was shot first and that there were two bomb threats made there last week, all directed toward engineering education buildings? Son and I spent a weekend there during recruiting and I cannot tell you how idyllic that campus is and how lovely the people are. This is beyond tragic.......now word is the suspect was looking for his girlfriend and went into Norris Hall lining up people and shooting them execution style?

good lord, it's not been confirmed but this is so so horrible....

This guy apparently shot the guy who checks IDs before you can go to other floors.  I forgot the name they used.

R.A??  Residence Admin, or something like that?

Yes that's it.

[Lala'sMom]

Hi CP405!  I see you lurking.  

[Anna]

ABC News

Apr. 16, 2007— At least 29 people are dead in what may be the biggest mass killing on a college campus in American history — and the death toll may rise.

Police at Virginia Tech, in Blaksburg, Va., said that the shootings happened at a dormitory and a classroom on opposite sides of the university campus.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said that one person was killed in the first shooting, which occurred just after 7 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a large dormitory. Flinchum said that at least 20 more people were killed at Norris Hall, an academic building.

The gunman, whose identity has not been released, is among the dead. Flinchum wouldn't say whether the shooter had killed himself.

ABC News has confirmed that there were two separate bomb threats last week at Virginia Tech that targeted engineering buildings. The first was directed at Torgersen Hall, while the second was directed at multiple engineering buildings. Students and staff were evacuated, and the university had offered a $5,000 reward for information into the threats.

Two local hospitals have reported treating 21 people, though it is unclear how many of those may have died.

University president Charles Steger said that police have not officially tied together the two shootings.

Steger described today's events as an incident of "tragic proportions" and said, "the university is shocked and horrified that this would befall us."

The campus is closed today and classed are canceled today and tomorrow. Families seeking to reunite with their children have been directed by the university to the Inn at Virginia Tech.

[MuffyBee]

This shooting at Virginia Tech is just terrible.  I wonder how long before we get crazies doing copy cat shootings at another University?  This is just so scarey!  I have a son at college and it just strikes fear in my heart that something like this happens.