Lively Case Discussion #608 4/29 - 4/30/2007

[Lala'sMom]

The brick color sections here looks lice cement instead of wood fencing. Look at the size of that dog, bet he'd make noise with people coming and going, loud mufflers etc. Neighbors had to have heard something going on......

You have to remember everything in Aruba is either concrete or concrete block. Wood would be devoured by termites there.

Another stupid remark that was made by Bernie Grimm on Greta on firday when he was commenting on the tools used to break up concrete. "How much concrete could there he on Aruba?"

DUH ... its all made of concrete in Aruba!!!

Every house one sees is concrete block, including most all the fences. Wood is not a common thing there. All recouces have to be imported.

I heard that and  thought "Bernie is an idiot"...he doesn't even do his homework..I think he said something about people that work for a living...yep, that's not him for sure.

[Rob]

Red, I watch the Raddison being built.. it is all block.. just like everything else... all the homes are concrete block...other than the country homes, that are older.

The Radisson was not originally the Radisson..they took it over when the other company went bankrupt.. they bought it for 55 million.

The entire sloot house and compound is concrete block.

am I spelling Radisson correctly?

[crazybabyborg]

What if they put Nat's body in the sea? What would be the most likely thing they could find at this date?

A souvinir kept by Joran? Blood stains? I want to hear they ripped up carpet to look at the concrete underneath, luminoled the matresses, re-looked at Deepak's car interior and luminoled that.........
I want those bones tested, the belt compared to the pic and DNA tested.

It's hard to believe that in this entire time, she's been buried under their noses. There was a point where the VDS's seemed to get really confident. I've always felt that was when they became sure she was really gone. PVDS from day one understood clearly, "No body, No case".

Can anyone think of anything else?

[LilPuma]

Well, I am still concerned that this is all for nothing.  I know, I do this every single night in here and most of you are tired of my whining.  I just don't want this family to be disappointed again.  They have had enough done to them and they need closure.  It's time for justice and it's long overdue. I just want KLPD to be on the up and up and actually get something done.  I am afraid it's just too late by now.

ITA.  If the Dutch don't find anything to arrest and convict anyone, it will be a major disappointment, but not a surprise.  Not because there's no evidence that Natalee died or anything bad happened, but because the vds clan and their friends have had a long time to clean up and witnesses have learned to forget they ever saw or heard anything.  This is not a show.  The Dutch would not be putting the man hours and equipment into it just for show.  NFI has a world class reputation.  I hope and pray they can find the truth among the sea of lies.

[Observer]

I think that is a very real scenario about Natalee acting crazy and falling and hitting her head. Either on that wall,pool or at the gate. Paulus very well may have been the one who decided not to get her medical treatment and to dispose of her.

[San]

Maybe we are getting ahead of ourselves here.  The VDS property search may not have been for a body at all.  Maybe they were tipped to her death happening there.  Around the pool area.  If she was taken to Joran's and they raped her and she came too long enough to get some sense about her and tried to escape...then she could have run out the door.  In a situation like that she would not know which way to run to get out of there.  It's like a prison anyway with all those walls around it.  From Joran's place the most likely way to go is where you see a wall or something thinking there could be a gate.  In the dark she could only see what the lighting in the area allowed.  Maybe the person that is talking said she tried to climb the wall and then fell and hit her head.  Thus the reference to an injury of some sort.  By the time Joran catches her and manages to restrain her she is bleeding and it's going all over his shoes.  Maybe she just collapses and they think she's just hurt but find out fast that she is dead or dying.  Then they have to decide what to do with her...let her die or get her help.  We know the answer to that one.

Lala's that house would be like a Maze (Shango)

I agree she might have tried to escape and Joran caught her because she got a phone call off.  He starts beating her so she doesn't leave.

THE PHONE CALL IS WHAT GOT HER KILLED.  JMO.

[robots]

well, i survived my little experiment  

the guy measuring is measuring FROM something to the tree

so, almost like a "point of view"

something going on at ground level and someone was watching from the
tree area

maybe that is what they are trying to determine
if something could be seen FROM the tree area

know what i mean

[Rob]

look at the gentleman's hands...one below one up high... they are looking to see if someone was thrown over the concrete wall or if someone could have received a fatal blow by falling off that wall.

They have some type of info that something happened on / at that particular wall.

This is very specific info and will confirm or deny a story told by someone very close to this case.

Do you think it might be that Natalee was trying to escape over the wall, fell and hit her head?  That might tie into the "something bad happened".

Casa,
I dont know, just like no one else knows...that wall seems important to the investigators. If the statements that Natalee was in and out of consciousness are correct and I believe they are.. she doesnt seem to be in any condition to make a mad dash.. JMO.

[robots]

someone watching from the FENCE/tree area and DUTCH verifying that it was possible  

[sb]

Didn't the gardener say that Joran was IN THE CAR with the others at 2:30 AM?  If he had excluded Joran, I would definitely want to think that K2 were sent off to the beach with some other unknown perp like Freddy, etc. while the VDS family cleaned up the fine mess.

I honestly can't remember who he said was in the car. I thought he said Satish WASN'T and that Joran was.

For VDS house to be the crime scene, I feel like the 2:30 supposed sighting at the beach is WAY too early. If they are there at 4 AM, yeah, they're waiting for the boat and the goon squad from Venezuela who permanently dispose of the "problems" for the honchos on happy-isle.

[San]

I think that is a very real scenario about Natalee acting crazy and falling and hitting her head. Either on that wall,pool or at the gate. Paulus very well may have been the one who decided not to get her medical treatment and to dispose of her.

There was a statement made in one of the news papers that said one of the suspects said Natalee starting freaking out.  If I am not mistaken they even accused her of being on drugs.

She was freaking out because she was kidnapped and being raped.

[crazybabyborg]

I have always felt that Natalee wasn't conscience long after leaving C&Cs. I got that opinion from Joran's interview. He didn't know anything at all about her, and relied almost exclusively on what was in the media, and stereotypes of a Southern White Girl.

I doubt that Natalee was in shape to try to escape, at least for a while.

[LilPuma]

Surely NOT a trajectory path!  

That's what I was thinking because I don't think they could use a laser outside.  I doubt that's what they are measuring for, though.

[bleachedblack]

I think Devries got someone on Aruba to talk. He has a certain "prestigious " status which  many of the young thugs, and perhaps even an ordinary citizen in Aruba might be more inclined to trust than ALE  or the like.

[Observer]

Casa,
I dont know, just like no one else knows...that wall seems important to the investigators. If the statements that Natalee was in and out of consciousness are correct and I believe they are.. she doesnt seem to be in any condition to make a mad dash.. JMO.[/quote]:ROB


Certainly not until later that morning..She would most likely be unconscious for a few hours you would think.

[robots]

when she woke up and realized she was raped

thats where the PREMEDITATED murder comes into play

she would go to police

and paulus could not have that

[Lala'sMom]

The only reason Paulus was not as upset this time about his property being searched is because he knows there is nothing left to find.  They all know that, except maybe for the Kalpoes.  Deepak knew she was dead though, he says it to Jamie Skeeters in the tape.  "If I  knew where the body was..."  That tells me that he is sure she is dead.  If he wasn't sure he would have said, " if I knew where she is, or I don't know where the girl is."  He would not use the word "body" unless she was dead.  JMO

I think the reason someone saw Joran and Deepak and the other person, which I think was Freddy, was because they were trying to get rid of something in the pond.  They got caught and they had to go back home to see what daddy was up to and tell him the bad news.

[crazybabyborg]

Looking back on these posts, the obvious comes home to roost again. When "who picked me up from the beach" becomes an ever changing answer, it's like a neon sign flashing that the SOB is hiding the truth. WHY? Because the truth will put him in jail.

[LilPuma]

I have always felt that Natalee wasn't conscience long after leaving C&Cs. I got that opinion from Joran's interview. He didn't know anything at all about her, and relied almost exclusively on what was in the media, and stereotypes of a Southern White Girl.

I doubt that Natalee was in shape to try to escape, at least for a while.

I remember the early reports that Deepak said "she wouldn't get out of the car."   At the time that didn't make sense because they said they dropped her off at the hotel.  Why wouldn't she get out of the car at her hotel?  It wasn't long before the hotel drop off fell apart and I figured he meant at the Lighthouse.  Now I think it was the vds house.    Let's not forget Joran's words "she said 'just put me down'".  Of course, this didn't happen at the beach while Joran was trying to convince her to go to her hotel.  I think they drove around the block and maybe to the lighthouse waiting for the drugs to take effect.  I've always thought that.

[Rob]

What if they put Nat's body in the sea? What would be the most likely thing they could find at this date?

A souvinir kept by Joran? Blood stains? I want to hear they ripped up carpet to look at the concrete underneath, luminoled the matresses, re-looked at Deepak's car interior and luminoled that.........
I want those bones tested, the belt compared to the pic and DNA tested.

It's hard to believe that in this entire time, she's been buried under their noses. There was a point where the VDS's seemed to get really confident. I've always felt that was when they became sure she was really gone. PVDS from day one understood clearly, "No body, No case".

Can anyone think of anything else?

Interesting that no one I know has ever seen that exact mattress... no pics anywhere that I know of....it would be easy to match to that bed and to Joran.