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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #614 5/5 - 5/6/2007  (Read 139038 times)
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adoronron
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« Reply #840 on: May 07, 2007, 11:25:20 AM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Date rape drugs are quickly metabolized in the body...traces in urine would only be found within a few hours after ingestion.   That is why it's such a good choice for said purpose.  Now, I am not sure about other drugs.  My question would be what is the comparison being made with should any be found?  Anyone get my drift?


I don't get your drift. What is it?
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klaasend
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« Reply #841 on: May 07, 2007, 11:25:25 AM »

Quote from: "msmarple"
Rob - I'll see if I can find what Beth said about the call she received that Monday, and whether she said anything about the trooper.

Matt reached Beth on her cell phone; that is how she heard.

For the trooper, Beth probably retrieved the home voice mail box. That is what I *think* I remember. (The chaperone likely called more than one number, but I don't think was able to reach anyone directly.)

klaas - did we post the Q&A session from that meeting? It was on BFN? (I can't access BFN from work.)

I am not trying to suggest that I *know* all about this telephone business, but it was something that I had watched for carefully from the beginning, and I asked several questions about it at that meeting -  including the phrases "I don't know these people" and "Are you calling home?" At the meeting, that is when Beth reminded us of her occupation (speech therapist) and that she is trained to recognize human vocalization attempts ...

No one seems to know how those phrases got into this case ...

There were several possibilities re. calls, but none of them panned out at all.


I'll look for the Q&A, think it's in it's own thread somewhere
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #842 on: May 07, 2007, 11:26:43 AM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Another question...exactly what ages were Joran's two brothers in May 2005?


11/12 and 14/15 I think.  Val was definately at the pimp in training age.


The reason I asked was because even though they are both old enough to be home alone, does it make any sense that Paulus would not, at the very least, go back inside and tell Val what was happening outside the night that Beth and Jug arrived?  Would you not tell your other kids that you were leaving with the police?  Of course, the main reason is that he didn't want anyone to follow him inside that gate.  They would have seen Deepak's car and possibly found the body then.  Reread this statement from PVDS, the obvious attempt at lying is there in black and white. He doesn't go back in to tell Val that he is leaving...he knows better.  He just trots off to a hotel in the early morning hours.   JMO

From Paulus 6/23:

 To your question what I did on May 31st 2005, I can state
the following. Around 02.00 I was awakened by the barking of
my dogs and Valentijn who had awakened before I woke up.
I
heard a lot of noise, I got dressed and walked to the gate. There
I saw a police car and two police officers. There were also several
other cars, among them a van and I think about 10 people or so.
Most of these people turned out to be Americans but there were
also a few Arubans, among other Charles CROES and two people
with a cord around their necks. I think they were from a hotel.
A police officer asked me if he could talk to me and he told me
that a girl had gone missing and that my son had been seen with
this girl. The group as a whole seemed agitated . One of the
Americans told me that it was about a girl my son had met at
“Carlos & Charlies”. I told him immediately that it could not have
been my son because he had played in a “free tournament” at
the Holiday in during the afternoon and that I had picked him
up at 23.00 hours at “Mc Donalds”. I then went to Joran's
apartment and to my surprise and to my anger he was not in
his apartment. I then called him on his mobile phone. He immediately
answered his phone. I asked him where he was and the told me
he was at the “Wyndham”. That he was at the “Wyndham” did
not surprise me at that moment. He was supposed to be playing
in the “Free tournament” there.
That could also be a clue that I
indeed did not see him after I had dropped him off at the
“Raquet Club”. I told him that people wanted to talk to him
with regard to a girl that had gone missing and that I would
come to where he was. I then got into the police-car and the
whole group drove over to the “Wyndham”.
I walked towards
the casino that was locking up. I could not see Joran there and
I again called him on his mobile phone. He answered and told
me that he was at home now.
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Rob
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« Reply #843 on: May 07, 2007, 11:27:21 AM »

Quote from: "2NJSons_Mom"
Could this Hayley Sagona be the woman who posted that she and her husband or companion were drugged and brought to some remote location while in Aruba?  

As was mentioned, the only Hayley that comes up in search in NY was born 1968.


that incident happened in 96 or 98... so I doubt that would be the same person.
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msmarple
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« Reply #844 on: May 07, 2007, 11:28:21 AM »

klaas - there was an MB student, girl, who stayed on Aruba for a week or two, and was joined by her parents? (May have been pre-planned?) Her whole family searched for Natalee ...

Do you recall her name? It was a bit unusual. I've been trying to find her in the FBI statements list.
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Why did they have to disappear her body?

Murder & Crime on  Aruba Summary - http://tinyurl.com/2lhukn

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2NJSons_Mom
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« Reply #845 on: May 07, 2007, 11:30:21 AM »

Quote from: "Rob"
Quote from: "2NJSons_Mom"
Could this Hayley Sagona be the woman who posted that she and her husband or companion were drugged and brought to some remote location while in Aruba?  

As was mentioned, the only Hayley that comes up in search in NY was born 1968.


that incident happened in 96 or 98... so I doubt that would be the same person.


OK...just trying to recall things that were posted...the time & specifics are now fuzzy.
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #846 on: May 07, 2007, 11:31:14 AM »

Quote from: "adoronron"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Date rape drugs are quickly metabolized in the body...traces in urine would only be found within a few hours after ingestion.   That is why it's such a good choice for said purpose.  Now, I am not sure about other drugs.  My question would be what is the comparison being made with should any be found?  Anyone get my drift?


I don't get your drift. What is it?


GHB or whatever it's called is quickly metabolized.  You would need more along the lines of tissue samples or maybe even stomach contents to find that stuff after a few days.   Maybe they were looking for a drug that lingers in the body longer, I am not certain.  The one thing that caught my attention is that this person must have indicated to someone that something strange happened to her also.  I am sure the test results would come back negative by this time.  They were just doing the test because she told them something that warranted the need for testing.  JMO
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klaasend
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« Reply #847 on: May 07, 2007, 11:34:47 AM »

Quote from: "msmarple"
klaas - there was an MB student, girl, who stayed on Aruba for a week or two, and was joined by her parents? (May have been pre-planned?) Her whole family searched for Natalee ...

Do you recall her name? It was a bit unusual. I've been trying to find her in the FBI statements list.


I believe that was Haley Unicaper?
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Easywriter
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« Reply #848 on: May 07, 2007, 11:34:58 AM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Quote from: "adoronron"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Date rape drugs are quickly metabolized in the body...traces in urine would only be found within a few hours after ingestion.   That is why it's such a good choice for said purpose.  Now, I am not sure about other drugs.  My question would be what is the comparison being made with should any be found?  Anyone get my drift?


I don't get your drift. What is it?


GHB or whatever it's called is quickly metabolized.  You would need more along the lines of tissue samples or maybe even stomach contents to find that stuff after a few days.   Maybe they were looking for a drug that lingers in the body longer, I am not certain.  The one thing that caught my attention is that this person must have indicated to someone that something strange happened to her also.  I am sure the test results would come back negative by this time.  They were just doing the test because she told them something that warranted the need for testing.  JMO


I find it kind of strange, but there might be a simple answer.
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klaasend
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« Reply #849 on: May 07, 2007, 11:35:52 AM »

msmarple - I just went to BFN and brought over the Birmingham meeting Q&A over here.  I know we had it, but couldn't find it.  It's now here:

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=1124
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msmarple
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« Reply #850 on: May 07, 2007, 11:38:25 AM »

I did notice the FBI interview with Tracey Allen, and the composite drawing. Quite a few other interviews with folks in the US (other than Alabama).

Looks like at least 60 +/- interviews with MB students.

{ climbing out on a limb here } ... I think every minute of Natalee's time on that trip has been mapped in a spread sheet with corroborating names and documents.
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Why did they have to disappear her body?

Murder & Crime on  Aruba Summary - http://tinyurl.com/2lhukn

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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #851 on: May 07, 2007, 11:39:29 AM »

Quote from: "msmarple"
Quote from: "Rob"
<snip>
Klaas, I'm trying to tie something together here...do we know for a fact that the 'call(s)' do-es exist? I have heard a few conflicting things on this...

One call to classmate...William Morris????

One call to Beth...'I don't know these guys / people' ~ this call got Beth speeding and pulled over by the state trooper, who listened to the call, and escorted her to the state line... where she was joined by the state police of that state. Arkansas to Alabama????

Time approx 3 am.

Are either of these calls real?

If they are, it nails Paulus' ass to the wall.

If J2K (or J + Deepak and unknown person) are at the racquet club at 3 am per the gardener, then it looks like they are getting fake evidence to plant on the beach...

This puts Paulus totally alone in the house as he said he was there at that time...


Rob - Beth has said out loud, to a room full of people, that there were NO PHONE CALLS TO or FROM Natalee during the trip.

The William Morris call (the one C Croes listened to) was from a Florida area code. There was "no human vocalization" on it.

I know this phone call thing dies hard, but I really think she tried to put it to rest. It is one thing for sure the FBI could investigate.

One of the things she stresses in these talks to travelers she's doing, is to take your cell phone, get international calling, and keep the phone with you at all times.



Beth Twitty
'The Abrams
April 19, 2006


ABRAMS: Beth, any truth to this, I don't know if it's rumor or report, et cetera, that Natalee had said something to you about having a crush on a blonde haired, blue eyed boy in Aruba?

TWITTY: Dan, there's just—there's no truth to that at all. You know Natalee had not called me. She didn't have international calling on her phone and no she never—her friends said that this never happened, it was never mentioned. And just simply it's just another rumor that had started and it's just not true, Dan.


Birmingham Meeting
October 28, 2006


Question and Answers:

15. Did Natalee make any phone calls that night?

BETH: There was a strange call to a friend of hers (William) but there is no evidence that it was from Natalee. The message was on his Cell phone and he retreived it on the airplane on the way home.

Credit: Debbie - BFN
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
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adoronron
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« Reply #852 on: May 07, 2007, 11:40:20 AM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Quote from: "adoronron"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Date rape drugs are quickly metabolized in the body...traces in urine would only be found within a few hours after ingestion.   That is why it's such a good choice for said purpose.  Now, I am not sure about other drugs.  My question would be what is the comparison being made with should any be found?  Anyone get my drift?


I don't get your drift. What is it?


GHB or whatever it's called is quickly metabolized.  You would need more along the lines of tissue samples or maybe even stomach contents to find that stuff after a few days.   Maybe they were looking for a drug that lingers in the body longer, I am not certain.  The one thing that caught my attention is that this person must have indicated to someone that something strange happened to her also.  I am sure the test results would come back negative by this time.  They were just doing the test because she told them something that warranted the need for testing.  JMO


How bout XTC? Wonder how long it hangs around in your system.
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #853 on: May 07, 2007, 11:45:18 AM »

So what is more simple than a urine sample on a female?  The only two reasons would be to check for drugs or pregnancy.  Both would require follow up blood samples for verification.   What other reasons would there be?
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Easywriter
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« Reply #854 on: May 07, 2007, 11:45:29 AM »

If everyone was giving a urine sample it wouldn't stand out, but here we have this one person giving one.
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« Reply #855 on: May 07, 2007, 11:46:31 AM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "msmarple"
klaas - there was an MB student, girl, who stayed on Aruba for a week or two, and was joined by her parents? (May have been pre-planned?) Her whole family searched for Natalee ...

Do you recall her name? It was a bit unusual. I've been trying to find her in the FBI statements list.


I believe that was Haley Unicaper?


Yes.  Haley Uncapher.
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BTgirl
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« Reply #856 on: May 07, 2007, 11:48:10 AM »

Quote from: "adoronron"


How bout XTC? Wonder how long it hangs around in your system.


According to this site, 2 days:

Amphetamine variants
 DOB, DOM, MDA, MDMA; Adam, Ecstasy, STP, XTC

 Up to 2 days

From: http://www.alwaystestclean.com/how_long.htm
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Easywriter
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« Reply #857 on: May 07, 2007, 11:48:57 AM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
So what is more simple than a urine sample on a female?  The only two reasons would be to check for drugs or pregnancy.  Both would require follow up blood samples for verification.   What other reasons would there be?


Maybe she had just got back from Aruba and called a tip line to report that she was drugged at that bar on her last night there.
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klaasend
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« Reply #858 on: May 07, 2007, 11:48:58 AM »

The latest from Natalee's Freebirds:

Blood – Not Cleaning Fluid

The Perfection of the Misinformation Campaign


Is it any wonder the Holloway/Twitty families have been so frustrated since the beginning of this “investigation” by Aruba into their daughter’s disappearance?

On June 9, 2005 Joran van der Sloot, Deepak Kalpoe, and Satish Kalpoe were arrested for pre-trial detention as suspects in Natalee’s disappearance.

On that same day, Aruban officials impounded Deepak Kalpoe’s car.

At approximately 8:30 that night, a search for blood was conducted inside that vehicle. That same day, FBI officials compiled a report of blood sample comparisons from their findings in that car.

One week later, DNA lab results came back from the FBI’s forensic laboratory in Quantico.

Pure logic tells us that if there was not blood found in the car –a comparison could not have been made.

Neither could a DNA report have been generated by the FBI.

From the Aruban case file log:


Search for blood in Deepak Kalpoe's car
June 9, 2005
3 page report
Divisie Centrale Recherche, Aruba

Laboratory Report (blood sample)
June 9, 2005
Blood Samples COMPARISON
FBI – Quantico



The "Diario," a local daily newspaper, is reporting that a human blood sample found in a car at the residence of one of the teens in custody — the 17-year-old son of a high-ranking island judicuary official — is now being sent to the U.S. and will be tested for a possible match to Natalee, whose mother gave a blood sample to investigators.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html


The next day, June 10, 2005, DNA samples were taken from Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway in Aruba.

June 10, 2005 brought us another important occurrence in this case – a confession was made by one of the suspects arrested the previous day.

Chief of Police, Gerold Dompig

CBS NEWS
June 10, 2005

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/10/national/main700829.shtml

Holloway's family rushed late Friday to an old stone lighthouse beside Arisha beach after Deputy Police Commissioner Gerold Dompig told The Associated Press that one of three young men in custody admitted that "something bad happened" to Holloway and was leading police to the scene of the alleged crime.

Paul Reynolds - Natalee Holloway's Uncle

'Scarborough Country'
July 12, 2005

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8551822

PAUL REYNOLDS, UNCLE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I know that my sister had a meeting with the FBI June 10, Friday. And from that meeting, she became convinced that Natalee was no longer alive. She called her mother and told her that. And our family was—was—began the grieving process.


However, if Aruban spokespeople were to be believed, there was not blood, but rather cleaning fluid found inside Deepak’s car – and the confession was merely a “misinformation campaign.”

FOX NEWS
June 11, 2005

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice (search) told FOX News Natalee Holloway (search), who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body.

However, Cruz later retracted the statement, saying he was a victim of a "misinformation campaign."


Jug Twitty
'Scarborough Country'
July 1, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8485048/

TWITTY: If they let them walk on this island after what Beth and I know, there's a lot of information that we have that we cannot share, because it would jeopardize the investigation. But if they let them walk, we can share it. And it would be devastating. The United States, the world will be amazed.

Amazing indeed!



Natalee and her family deserve justice, and we will not let up until they have it!

Natalee's Freebirds
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msmarple
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« Reply #859 on: May 07, 2007, 11:49:55 AM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
msmarple - I just went to BFN and brought over the Birmingham meeting Q&A over here.  I know we had it, but couldn't find it.  It's now here:

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=1124


Thanks klaas. (Does not include some of the discussion, and secondary questions, that ensued. I know someone who took extensive notes; I'll check on that later.)

Thanks also for Haley's name; I'm sure that's it. I don't recall seeing her among the FBI statements - but it doesn't matter. It just happened that her family were previous visitors. I think she was not returning with the group, but rather going to be joined by her parents. Their vacation turned into a search ...  Crying or Very sad  .
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Why did they have to disappear her body?

Murder & Crime on  Aruba Summary - http://tinyurl.com/2lhukn

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