Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[sharon]

Hi Janet! 

Shall we compare the 'named spokespersons' for the Natalee Holloway case to the 'named spokepersons' for Madeleine's case??

Who will play Gerold Dompig? Arlene? Rubberlegs Ruben. And let's not forget the marble mouth  spokeperson -- Tito. Adorable Marianne Croes. And the skank. I'm sure I'm missing a few.

In retrospect -- I don't think they told us the truth.

I'll wait on facts to appear. I hope they actually have some. I do have my own opinions, of course, based on logic (which is considered a scientific method  )  and my heart (which isn't scientifc at all).

[vms]

Hi Janet! 

Shall we compare the 'named spokespersons' for the Natalee Holloway case to the 'named spokepersons' for Madeleine's case??

Who will play Gerold Dompig? Arlene? Rubberlegs Ruben. And let's not forget the marble mouth  spokeperson -- Tito. Adorable Marianne Croes. And the skank. I'm sure I'm missing a few.

In retrospect -- I don't think they told us the truth.

I'll wait on facts to appear. I hope they actually have some. I do have my own opinions, of course, based on logic (which is considered a scientific method  )  and my heart (which isn't scientifc at all).

Hi Sharon. I know you weren't directing that post to me but Rubberlegs? 

Too funny!

[sharon]

vms  yes -- klaas had a few fun 'photoshops' of Ruben. I am anxiously anticipating to see him in a youtube 'merengue'.

I've lost so much 'naivete' these past 2 years.

I just don't believe any 'official spokeperson' anymore. That's the only (sad) point I was trying to make.

But I did believe Beth Holloway from the start -- and I still do.

And I know that the fact that the McCann's were with Maddy are the circumstances that prevent people from automatically believing them. (Thanks to Susan Smith )

But you are correct. I think all we all want is Maddy to be returned home safely...or justice for her.

[Puzzler]

Janet, thank you for your comments.

Okay....so, basically, what we "know" is that Madeleine is missing and that there three arguidos have been named.

 

[Helen Back]

The "leaks" about DNA that has been collected being a "match" to Madeleine's DNA.............Once again, I must ask.  What are they "matching" it to?[/b]  Does someone have a DNA profile from prior testing done on Madeleine?  Is there a refrigerated or frozen blood, fluid or tissue specimen known to have been collected from Madeleine in the past and stored in a laboratory somewhere?  If not, what are the police "matching" the samples to?

I find the language regarding these "DNA collections" to be curious from a scientific standpoint.  IF there are no "known samples" or a profile of Madeleine's DNA somewhere, then we should be talking about probabilities, not a "match".

I'm just sayin................

Helen ... Madeleine's DNA could have been obtained from any of her belongings ... toothbrush ... brush ... toys, etc.

However ... the "sources" which these publications are accrediting their reports are not remaining consistent in regards to the "leaked" information.

1. Blood ... no blood ... is found in the rental vehicle.
2. Wiretaps imply ... do not imply ... guilt.
3. DNA matches ... does not match ... Madeleine's genetic profile.
4. Friend/s lied ... did not lie ... regarding events encompassing the evening that Maddie was allegedly abducted.
5.  Friend/s are suspected ... not suspected ... in assisting the McCanns in a coverup following an unfortunate incident.
6.  The McCanns are ... are not ... being framed.
7. ...

Bottom line ... if the reports in these various publications are "leaks" coming from source/s within the investigation ... obviously the source/s cannot be considered reliable.

The foundation of my speculation in the Madeleine McCann case comprises credible sources associated with the investigation that are identified by name.

Janet

Hey Janet,

I don't know if the McCann's are involved in their daughter's disappearance or not.  I will once again say that the failure to preserve any of the "crime scenes" including the villa and the rental car, make me suspicious of the credibility of the collection of evidence. Thanks to shoddy investigative procedures, If DNA is found, it will be difficult to demonstrate the "how" and "who"  and "when" of it all. This makes prosecution difficult, at best.

Additionally, I understand that Madeleine's DNA could have been obtained from any of her belongings such as toothbrush and hairbrush.  However, with three children in a family, and in the absence of additional testing, it would be difficult to determine with any certainty that a sample did not come from another child, as children often use each other's belongings such as brushes, toothbrushes, shoes, clothing, etc.  IF DNA samples were obtained from the twins, and their profile identified, it could be said that another sample could be "different" in profile, yet similar enough to belong to a biological sibling.  Perhaps this type of testing has been done. 

What I am trying to express is that the language of "match" used in the "leaked information" is not consistent with language expressed as a result of laboratory testing, and therefore suspect as to credibility.

I agree with you that we can discount all leaked information.  However, due to such poor investigative procedures, I just don't have confidence that the official statements, which must be based on the investigation, can be trusted.  I guess we'll have to see how all the information shakes out.

 

[vms]

vms  yes -- klaas had a few fun 'photoshops' of Ruben. I am anxiously anticipating to see him in a youtube 'merengue'.

I've lost so much 'naivete' these past 2 years.

I just don't believe any 'official spokeperson' anymore. That's the only (sad) point I was trying to make.

But I did believe Beth Holloway from the start -- and I still do.

And I know that the fact that the McCann's were with Maddy are the circumstances that prevent people from automatically believing them. (Thanks to Susan Smith )

But you are correct. I think all we all want is Maddy to be returned home safely...or justice for her.

It is sad.
Susan Smith. OMG, it took me months to accept the outcome of that. You'd think I would learn but I still find it hard to accept that a mother could do that. Janet is trying to make me face reality though and I'm listening...but still hoping...

[Rob]

Janet is right as usual. There are no reliable sources here.

I'm about ready to start over.

I think I am about to throw out everything I know (how I am going to do this is undecided right now, as some of this info seems to be correct, but who knows what parts are the correct parts) and start back at May 3rd 2007.

I hate starting over because it means re-doing everything. And it's very time consuming.

I am interesting in Tanner. Not so much O'Brien. But there is something about Tanner's story that doesn't seem to ring true to me.

I am having a hard time understanding how a mother leaves a vomiting child to have dinner and drinks. And only checks on the child periodically. The lack of concern (if true) just seems odd to me. It could all be innocent enough, but O'Brien seems to claim changing sheets.... did he have an extra supply of sheets? or did he call house keeping? I have stayed in enough hotels to know they don't just leave you an extra set of sheets. You have to call housekeeping for more pillows and comforters. Sheets are not left like towels to be used at your will.

Parents leave work, and stay home from work to tend a sick child, but Tanner seems to hardly be bothered.

Maybe it is just me.

[Tamikosmom]

Hi Janet! 

Shall we compare the 'named spokespersons' for the Natalee Holloway case to the 'named spokepersons' for Madeleine's case??

Who will play Gerold Dompig? Arlene? Rubberlegs Ruben. And let's not forget the marble mouth  spokeperson -- Tito. Adorable Marianne Croes. And the skank. I'm sure I'm missing a few.

In retrospect -- I don't think they told us the truth.

I'll wait on facts to appear. I hope they actually have some. I do have my own opinions, of course, based on logic (which is considered a scientific method  )  and my heart (which isn't scientifc at all).

Hi Sharon

I agree with you to some extent.  However ... I am one with the Natalee's Freebirds' contention that many of the words spoken by those who held official positions within the Natalee Holloway case reflected the "exact" truth in regards to the main suspects ... Joran, Deepak, Satish and Paulus.

Janet


http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/07/aruban-authorities-implicate-main.html
ARUBAN AUTHORITIES IMPLICATE MAIN SUSPECTS IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE

[vms]

Janet is right as usual. There are no reliable sources here.

I'm about ready to start over.

I think I am about to throw out everything I know (how I am going to do this is undecided right now, as some of this info seems to be correct, but who knows what parts are the correct parts) and start back at May 3rd 2007.

I hate starting over because it means re-doing everything. And it's very time consuming.

I am interesting in Tanner. Not so much O'Brien. But there is something about Tanner's story that doesn't seem to ring true to me.

I am having a hard time understanding how a mother leaves a vomiting child to have dinner and drinks. And only checks on the child periodically. The lack of concern (if true) just seems odd to me. It could all be innocent enough, but O'Brien seems to claim changing sheets.... did he have an extra supply of sheets? or did he call house keeping? I have stayed in enough hotels to know they don't just leave you an extra set of sheets. You have to call housekeeping for more pillows and comforters. Sheets are not left like towels to be used at your will.

Parents leave work, and stay home from work to tend a sick child, but Tanner seems to hardly be bothered.

Maybe it is just me.

No, it isn't just you. I cannot imagine either.

[festa]

Janet is right as usual. There are no reliable sources here.

I'm about ready to start over.

I think I am about to throw out everything I know (how I am going to do this is undecided right now, as some of this info seems to be correct, but who knows what parts are the correct parts) and start back at May 3rd 2007.

I hate starting over because it means re-doing everything. And it's very time consuming.

I am interesting in Tanner. Not so much O'Brien. But there is something about Tanner's story that doesn't seem to ring true to me.

I am having a hard time understanding how a mother leaves a vomiting child to have dinner and drinks. And only checks on the child periodically. The lack of concern (if true) just seems odd to me. It could all be innocent enough, but O'Brien seems to claim changing sheets.... did he have an extra supply of sheets? or did he call house keeping? I have stayed in enough hotels to know they don't just leave you an extra set of sheets. You have to call housekeeping for more pillows and comforters. Sheets are not left like towels to be used at your will.

Parents leave work, and stay home from work to tend a sick child, but Tanner seems to hardly be bothered.

Maybe it is just me.

I'm curious, Rob, why just Tanner and not O'Brien, isn't he the doc, maybe I'm remembering wrong and I haven't checked - I always thought it was odd that "anyone" would leave a vomiting child alone AND then to find out O'Brien is a doctor, right?

Their judgment in leaving the child is questionable, but (and I am only saying this based on one person I know) but perhaps some in the health care profession tend to worry less and we don't know (or do we) how long before they left for dinner the child last vomited (again, wouldn't matter to me, I would have stayed) ...IDK, just a suggestion - I think everyone in this party who left a child unattended was acting negligent.

[sharon]

It is sad.
Susan Smith. OMG, it took me months to accept the outcome of that. You'd think I would learn but I still find it hard to accept that a mother could do that. Janet is trying to make me face reality though and I'm listening...but still hoping...

Janet is an excellent 'wannabe detective' (as she calls herself) 

I think she's better than any of the detectives we've seen so far on this case - as well as Natalee's.

I'm just not sure what a 'reliable' source is in this investigation.

And the fact that the police did not take the McCann's seriously in the first critical hours, only makes it more difficult to let 'evidence' speak.

I don't want it to be the McCann's, vms, for similar reasons to yours. But if that is what the 'facts' deliver, then that will be the 'facts' of this sad case.

I'm just not sure what a 'reliable' source is in this investigation.

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, thank you for your comments.

Okay....so, basically, what we "know" is that Madeleine is missing and that there three arguidos have been named.

 

Exactly!!

It is very difficult for this wannabe detective to speculate on this case.  Unlike the "powers that be" in the Aruban investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway ... the "powers that be" in the Portuguese investigation ... in accordance to their laws ... have remained silent.  Why those in official positions within the Aruban investigation disregarded Dutch law ... I do not know.  However ... in the past year the silence has been deafening.

Janet

[festa]

The police and the Crown Prosecution Service have assembled a team led by top CPS lawyer Tony Connell, 52, who has been in charge of the prosecution of some of Britain's most high-profile crimes.

This astounding move would come because British authorities are entitled to investigate the disappearance and possible murder of Maddie under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act which applies to homicides committed abroad if British citizens are involved

A senior police source said last night: "The view has been taken that because of the sheer size and sensitivity of this crime, that the British authorities are very likely to conduct their own investigation."


Meanwhile, Dr Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner, both 36, who were dining with the couple when Madeleine vanished at their holiday complex in Praia da Luz, are believed to have had their phones secretly tapped and their emails monitored.

And it is now believed both could sensationally be asked to return to Portugal for further questioning this week.

The couple are understood to have been covertly watched since their return to Britain from Praia da Luz.

A source close to the investigation said: "Portugese police are convinced this couple need to be looked at to aid their investigation into Madeleine's disappearance

"Investigators believe the both O'Brien and Tanner can provide help in proving whether the McCanns played a part in the toddler's disappearance or not.

"It is not all about trying to fit the McCanns up as Kate has claimed.

"The Portuguese see it as a legitimate way in proving one way or another who was involved."

Mother-of-two Jane told Portuguese detectives she saw a man carry a child from the McCanns' holiday apartment wrapped in a blanket at 9.15pm on May 3.

But investigators are now reconsidering her claims questioning if she had in fact been mistaken or even embellished what she had seen.

Ms Tanner stands by her version of events. Dr O'Brien said he left the dining table at one point to look after one of his two young daughters who was ill.

But Portugese detectives have raised concerns over contradictions..

Dr O'Brien and Ms Tanner, of Exeter, Devon, voluntarily returned to Portugal in July to help.

The doctor, a former colleague of Mr McCann, has been the subject of a smear campaign in the Portugese press himself.

The couple said: "These reports in the Portugese press are completely UNTRUE and extremely hurtful." Portugal's Judicial Police, who have masterminded the investigation into Maddie's disappearance and are headed by director Alipio Ribeiro plan new searches of land around Praia da Luz and neighbouring Lagos and Burgau.

The new searches are based on evidence they have gathered from mobile phone traces.

The satellite technology has enabled them to pinpoint where the McCanns and their friends were on the night Maddie disappeared, from calls they made to each other.

They have also traced their movements in the days after she vanished.

Some new searches will focus on the McCanns' apartment in the Mark Warner Ocean Club complex where highly-trained police sniffer dogs are said to have found blood traces.

It also emerged yesterday that detectives want to carry out a reconstruction of the night Madeleine disappeared - a move that British cops would have done within a couple of WEEKS while witnesses' memories were still fresh.

But they fear Gerry and Kate McCann's holiday friends may refuse to take part or be unable to get there at the same time.

Last night Portuguese sources claimed Kate, 39, could be facing a MURDER charge, rather than manslaughter, after the investigating judge took the unusual step of allowing her diaries to be used as evidence in any potential prosecution.

Close friends of the McCanns remain convinced Robert Murat is still the most likely suspect. He denies any involvement.

Kate, Gerry and Murat, 33, have all now been named arguidos - formal suspects.

Dr O'Brien told police they saw Mr Murat outside Maddie's apartment around the time of the abduction.

The source added: "Portugese police are scratching their heads, they have no evidence, no case and have reached desperation.

"Keeping friends of the McCanns under secret surveillance shows how little they know about what really happened on the night that Madeleine disappeared."

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=another-twist-of-the-knife&method=full&objectid=19798128&siteid=93463-name_page.html

[Rob]

Yes, Festa- O'Brien is the Doctor. Maybe he told her and the child is was a simple case of stomach flu, but Tanner seems to just go about her business and doesn't stop to think for a moment to stay and comfort her child.

I don't remember my dad stopping for two seconds to attend a sick sibling, but my mom always did.

I don't want this to sound sexist, but the maternal instinct is what seems to attend the sick child...Am I making any sense here?

Tanner seems (to me at least) to be lacking that maternal instinct. Doesn't mean it's true, just my observation and opinion.

I believe Tanner is a research Fellow. However, I could be wrong and that could be Oldfield. I think Payne is a Doctor also.

[festa]

I was looking at threads in the mirror forum and someone mentioned (again I don't know how true this is or not) that Tanner didn't come forth with that information regarding the man with the blanket until after a week passed - I find that hard to believe, but if she did, it is questionable why the late revelation - perhaps this is mistaken and the press didn't find this info until a week passed, IDK

[Rob]

I was looking at threads in the mirror forum and someone mentioned (again I don't know how true this is or not) that Tanner didn't come forth with that information regarding the man with the blanket until after a week passed - I find that hard to believe, but if she did, it is questionable why the late revelation - perhaps this is mistaken and the press didn't find this info until a week passed, IDK

Festa- what if this is not a pedophile, the McCanns, or gypsies? That would leave only Tanner giving Maddy to someone that wanted a child. And arranged at the end of the stay in Praia Da Luz. By claiming that he has possibly seen Maddy opens the door to this possibility.

I believe if Maddy were dead in Portugal, her body would have a 50 / 50 chance of being found. Still not enough to say one way or the other, but the fact that there has been such an intense search for her, and the fact that three people seem to have been seen at the petrol station with a child matching Maddy's description, leaves open this possibility.


Petrol station- three individuals - one man, one woman and one child matching Maddy's description were seen on CCTV early in case. I do not believe anyone has ID'd them.

[festa]

Yes, Festa- O'Brien is the Doctor. Maybe he told her and the child is was a simple case of stomach flu, but Tanner seems to just go about her business and doesn't stop to think for a moment to stay and comfort her child.

I don't remember my dad stopping for two seconds to attend a sick sibling, but my mom always did.

I don't want this to sound sexist, but the maternal instinct is what seems to attend the sick child...Am I making any sense here?

Tanner seems (to me at least) to be lacking that maternal instinct. Doesn't mean it's true, just my observation and opinion.

I believe Tanner is a research Fellow. However, I could be wrong and that could be Oldfield. I think Payne is a Doctor also.

I see what you're saying - I would have to agree (maybe I'm sexist too) but there were evening that I was up all night with vomit and fever and my husband went back to bed (of course he had to get up the next morning for work)  

Regarding Tanner though - I found this on a timeline:

9:15pm Jane Tanner told police that at this time she went to check on her daughter, who was ill, and recalled seeing Mr McCann talking to Mr Wilkins. As she went into the apartment, she saw a man aged around 35 carrying a little girl wrapped in a blanket.

She thought nothing of it but is now convinced this was the kidnapper. The child's pyjamas matched the description of those Madeleine was wearing. Mr Wilkins apparently saw no such man, and does not remember seeing Miss Tanner. He has told police: "It was a very narrow path and I think it would have been almost impossible for anyone to walk by without me noticing."

9:30pm Dr Matthew Oldfield left the table and offered to check the McCann children. In his first police statement he said he merely listened at the door of apartment 5a but later said he had gone in and noticed that the room seemed lighter than the others, as if the shutters had been opened. He cannot be certain whether Madeleine was there.

IDK if this timeline is incorrect - but did/when O'Brien check on them?

[Rob]

Janet - here is the article on the 11:40 pm phone call between Murat and Malinka.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=a-phoney-alibi%2D%26method=full%26objectid=19131086%26siteid=89520-name_page.html

A PHONEY ALIBI?
THE HUNT FOR MADELEINE: 11.40pm call on the night she went missing Murat told police he was at home in bed Russian: We have not spoken for a year
Vanessa Allen And Martin Fricker In Praia Da Luz Vanessa.Allen@Mirror.Co.Uk 19/05/2007

PHONE calls have cast doubt over the alibis of Madeleine McCann suspect Robert Murat and Russian computer expert Sergey Malinka.

Records show that the two men had a series of talks - including one at 11.40pm - soon after four-year-old Madeleine went missing from her apartment in Praia da Luz 16 days ago.

Murat, 33, has claimed that at the time he was asleep in his mother Jenny's nearby home.

Malinka, 22 - who also lives nearby - said in a newspaper interview he had not spoken to Murat for a year.

He claims he only knows him because he helped him with a laptop at 71-year-old Jenny's house.

Both men have refused to discuss the phone calls. Murat is the only suspect in the case. Malinka is being treated as a witness. They deny any involvement.

Detectives are said to be concerned that though Murat and Malinka claim to be only business acquaintances they were captured on CCTV speaking animatedly in the days after Madeleine vanished.

Murat also rented a hire car for three days after the abduction, possibly after he realised he was under police surveillance.

He told the hire firm it was because searchers wanted to use his car.

But yesterday his friend Tuck Price said Murat's own car had clutch problems.

Mr Price said Murat was "in a state of shock". He added: "Robert doesn't understand many of the things that have been printed about him.

"But he's very strong and mentally healthy. He doesn't need any kind of psychological help."

As fears grew that Madeleine had been smuggled out of Portugal, it emerged that police have still not checked CCTV cameras along the A22 motorway leading to Spain.

By last night the support website www.findmadeleine.com set up by the McCann family had received more than 65 MILLION hits just 48 hours after its launch.

The astonishing wave of support was backed by 22,000 messages.

But sick internet opportunists are trying to cash in on the overwhelming public response by setting up similar-sounding websites.

Unsuspecting users are faced with a series of links to other sites including adult chat rooms, dating services and cheap airline tickets.

Branding those responsible as "parasites", Madeleine's uncle John McCann said: "We're incredibly disappointed that people are taking advantage of other people's generosity for commercial gain."

In another sickening development, ghoulish holidaymakers have been posing with smiles on their faces for photographs outside the apartment where Madeleine was snatched. Meanwhile, the priest comforting the youngster's parents told how the couple were stunned at the "tidal wave of love" shown to them.

Father Paul Seddon - who married 38-year-old Kate and Gerry McCann, and baptised Madeleine - flew out to the Algarve last weekend. Speaking outside the apartment where Madeleine was taken, he said yesterday: "Those first few hours were filled with darkness and fear.

"None of us will ever forget how we felt. If that feeling of helplessness and devastation had continued it would have generated a sort of paralysis.

"But Gerry and Kate would not allow it. They knew it would have destroyed them as people and reduced the chance of finding Madeleine.

"They made a choice to take control of things. This gave them a positive focus and a conviction that Madeleine could and would be found."

Father Seddon said the couple's regular visits to the local Catholic church in Praia da Luz had helped them cope with their ordeal.

He said: "The visits stirred energy and power that strengthened them.

"Kate has a very deep-rooted faith and she turned immediately to God for hope and strength.

"Gerry spoke to me about feeling as if he was in a tunnel - not at the far end where the light seems far away but where the tunnel opens out, where anything seems possible.

"The tidal wave of destruction Madeleine's disappearance has caused has been met by a tidal wave of empathy and love.

"It is being turned into hope and action. Kate and Gerry will leave no stone unturned until we find her.

"On their behalf I want to thank everyone for their part in trying to find this very precious, very special little girl."

Madeleine posters will go up in bus and coach stations served by the Eurolines coach service network stretching from Ireland to the Baltic and Sweden to Morocco.

Richard Bowker, National Express coach group chief executive, said: "We hope this will help raise awareness in places not yet touched by news of Madeleine's disappearance."

A British businessman has paid for 20,000 other Madeleine posters to be distributed across the country.

John Sandford-Hart, who runs a sign firm in Ringwood, Hants, will hand the self-adhesive posters to drivers in Hampshire and Wiltshire.

He said: "It's important that everybody helps. If one poster out of 20,000 makes a difference, it's worth it."

A not-for-profit fighting fund to help find Madeleine has £73,505 in the bank, her family said yesterday.

The figure includes £50,000 from Portsmouth Football Club.

The fund has also received £20,000 in cheque donations. Madeleine's great uncle Brian Kennedy said: "It's the tip of the iceberg. The figure is likely to be considerable."

A two-minute video of missing Madeleine will be shown to fans on giant screens at the FA Cup Final at Wembley today.

The DVD - which has the soundtrack of the Simple Minds hit Don't You Forget About Me - was earlier screened at the Uefa Cup Final between Sevilla and Espanyol.

[Puzzler]

Rob....isn't O'Brian the one who was supposedly away for about 30-35 minutes, tending to his sick daughter and having to change her bed linens...only hotel staff said they'd received no requests for clean linens?

Hmmmm....that one's a "puzzler" IMO

[vms]

9.30 Mr Oldfield goes to the McCann's apartment; he doesn't raise any suspicions at the time but later says that he noticed there was more light in the apartment. Russell O'Brien leaves at the same time, to discover that his daughter is vomiting

9.35 Mr Oldfield returns to the table

9.55 Mr O'Brien returns

Link