Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Rob]

Festa- similar to Deepak giving information that might arise at a later date, Tanner may have said she say Gerry before Gerry brought it up and the police confronted her with those facts and asked why she held that back. When Deepak did not know that someone had seen them, he freaked out and flipped over the domino board. Info he was not prepared for.

9:15pm Jane Tanner told police that at this time she went to check on her daughter, who was ill, and recalled seeing Mr McCann talking to Mr Wilkins. As she went into the apartment, she saw a man aged around 35 carrying a little girl wrapped in a blanket.

Possibly TWO people to blow her story.

This could happen without O'Brien even knowing anything. Not likely, but possible.

[festa]

Saturday September 8, 2007
The Guardian


Very few verifiable details have emerged from the investigation, but Portuguese newspapers have published detailed accounts of the evening, apparently based on the leaked witness statements of the seven friends on holiday with the McCanns.
It has been speculated that police suspicions centre on supposed inconsistencies between the accounts, and the "missing" four hours between the time Madeleine left the resort creche and the moment the alarm was raised. If the reports are correct the discrepancies, with one exception, relate only to minor variations in timing.

According to the newspaper Sol, the friends' account is as follows:
6pm The McCanns collect Madeleine and their twin siblings from the creche at the Ocean Club

7.30 The three children are put to bed

8.30 Kate and Gerry McCann arrive at the tapas restaurant

8.45 Family friends Russell O'Brien, a doctor from Exeter, and Matthew and Rachael Oldfield, a doctor and recruitment consultant from London, arrive

8.55 David and Fiona Payne, both doctors from Leicester, arrive

9.00 Gerry McCann goes to check on his children

9.05 Mr McCann is returning to the table when he runs into Jeremy Wilkins, an English TV producer whom he befriended on the tennis courts, and the pair chat in the street just outside the McCann's apartment

9.10 Jane Tanner, Mr O'Brien's partner, is coming late to the dinner, one of their children having been sick, when she sees a man walking away from the McCann's apartment with a child over his shoulder. She tells police that she passed directly alongside Mr McCann and Mr Wilkins; the latter tells police he saw neither her nor the mysterious man

9.25 Gerry McCann returns to the restaurant. Mr Oldfield leaves to check on his own children

9.30 Mr Oldfield goes to the McCann's apartment; he doesn't raise any suspicions at the time but later says that he noticed there was more light in the apartment. Russell O'Brien leaves at the same time, to discover that his daughter is vomiting

9.35 Mr Oldfield returns to the table

9.55 Mr O'Brien returns

10.00 Kate McCann goes to the apartment and discovers that her daughter has gone. She returns to the restaurant and raises the alarm.


By this account the Turner/O'Brien child/children were left alone for 20 minutes - the mother was with them and left them to go to dinner - Was it their plan, since O'Brien was already there for him to eat first and then for her to come later, or did she think the kids were okay, seems the child was vomiting when the father went to check (perhaps not before, just feeling ill) - IDK, just saying - doesn't matter - but this says O'Brien returns at 9:55 and Kate leave 5 minutes later - this has people coming and going at that table quite a bit, AGAIN the seeing "more" light in the room?? suggesting someone touched the shades, Why would a kidnapping open the blinds?  (that is what he's suggesting, right?)  
Again, more confusion, because of timelines - Do we have a correct timeline? but perhaps that is the problem - the police say there are inconsistencies with their statements - I could understand confusion about exact time - and Turner said she saw Wilkins, he didn't see her, maybe he just didn't notice her, she doesn't say she acknowledged him - I have this happen all the time, people not noticing me, I'm very quiet -

[Rob]

Rob....isn't O'Brian the one who was supposedly away for about 30-35 minutes, tending to his sick daughter and having to change her bed linens...only hotel staff said they'd received no requests for clean linens?

Hmmmm....that one's a "puzzler" IMO

Hi Ya Puzzler... been reading your thoughts... not your mind... thoughts only LOL... 

I was just thinking about that.. great question.

These (Mark Warner Complex) were classified as apartments. Maybe like a time share. Maybe they did have extra sheets. I stayed once at the Playa Linda during Carnival. And although it was right next door to the Hyatt, it was nothing like the Hyatt at all. They only cleaned your room a few times per week, but there were no extra sheets or pillows. You had to call for those items.

But you are right, O'Brien does say he was away for 30+ minutes.

I am not sure if there was a request or not for fresh linens. Anyone else know?

[vms]

Rob....isn't O'Brian the one who was supposedly away for about 30-35 minutes, tending to his sick daughter and having to change her bed linens...only hotel staff said they'd received no requests for clean linens?

Hmmmm....that one's a "puzzler" IMO

Hi Ya Puzzler... been reading your thoughts... not your mind... thoughts only LOL... 

I was just thinking about that.. great question.

These (Mark Warner Complex) were classified as apartments. Maybe like a time share. Maybe they did have extra sheets. I stayed once at the Playa Linda during Carnival. And although it was right next door to the Hyatt, it was nothing like the Hyatt at all. They only cleaned your room a few times per week, but there were no extra sheets or pillows. You had to call for those items.

But you are right, O'Brien does say he was away for 30+ minutes.

I am not sure if there was a request or not for fresh linens. Anyone else know?

Not saying it is fact but I did read that O'Brien stated he put the sheets in the washing machine in the apartment.

[festa]

OK, I think if Tanner/O'Brien or anyone else is involved, it would be to help the McCanns in the event that they did have something to do with Madeleine's disappearance - What other motivation would any of them have?  Selling her?  They don't appear to be struggling - they all seem to have lucrative jobs, many of them doctors - Even the covering up for the McCanns seems a stretch for me (at the moment without more evidence) because I just don't think I have any friends that I would be willing to sacrifice my life/family for - I still think Murat and Malinka need to be dug deeper - they lied, that we know for sure regarding the cell phone logs - AND to add to that they claimed not talking for a year -
WHY make it sooooo long?  really wanted to distance each other...
AND the allegations I printed earlier about Malinka, I know, they were coworkers, heresay, don't know how "reputable" that article was, but there was talk of child porn and that articles indications that Malinka likes underage girls (again maybe that is false, but maybe a lot of what they are saying about the McCanns and their friends are false too - unfortunately I think there is a lot of that) Even if allegations (regarding child porn/underage sex) against Murat and Malinka is not true, they lied about talking to each - and they spoke that night, at least their phones did - and Murat's alibi is his mother   - I mean, that's fine, but the guy lives with his mom, I don't think it would be a real stretch to at least think there was a possibility that she might lie for him...

[festa]

“Also the table waiters that were working in the resort’s restaurant – the Tapas, where the group of friends had dinner that night – didn’t notice much movement of checking on the children. One of them guaranteed to Sol that, since the beginning of dinner (which started between 8.30 and 9 p.m.), only two men got up, almost simultaneously.

One of them was Russell O’Brien, one of the doctors of the group, who was absent for most of the dinner and who returned to the table 5 minutes before Kate went to her apartment and noticed Maddie was missing. Russell then explained that his daughter was sick, and even “vomited so it was necessary to change her bed sheets”. One of the employees of the Ocean Club, who was heard by Sol this week, contradicts his version: “If that had happened, he would have to ask the housekeeping service for some clean sheets, which did not happen”.


Again, why did Tanner and O'Brien even try to go out to dinner that night, I just can't understand that, If this resort had a creche and babysitting services, they must have also had room service - I don't get it -

[Rob]

vms- thank you. So these are apartments possibly with washers and dyers. I wonder if O'Brien placed his child in another bed while the sheets were bing cleaned?

Festa- I agree, it is a stretch. And I am most interested in Murat, Malinka and a pedophile ring. But that's just me. I just find Tanner odd. Odd in the fact that she seem to place herself in the exact area where Maddy may have last been seen and could have withheld that info. Odd in the fact that she seems to be possibly establishing an alibi and witnesses before any are needed and no one is looking at her. She could just be an oddball... the world is full of em.

[Puzzler]

Rob…..check out the last paragraph…what Jeremy Wilks said…what do you think?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/17/wmaddy217.xml


New allegations against McCanns - The Telegrraph

By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 2:30am BST 17/09/2007

AS the McCanns begin a new campaign to clear their names, further allegations emerged over the weekend.

The hire car: The Renault Scenic hired by the McCanns 25 days after Madeleine went missing. New claims centre on its high mileage. Between May 27 and July 3, it was driven 1,700 miles, with police looking into the possibility that it may have been used to dispose of a body. Mr McCann puts the mileage down to regular trips to and from Faro airport to pick up family and friends. There were also reports that detectives were waiting for permission from a judge to seize and dismantle the car to search for "traces of skin".

The incinerator: Rumours that Madeleine's body may have been burned led to reports that police had sealed off two incinerators near Praia da Luz. There were also claims that Portuguese police were investigating furnaces in Spain, although they said incinerators had not formed part of their investigation.
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The 40 questions: Pedro Daniel dos Anjos Frias, the investigating judge, is said to want Mrs McCann interrogated again after she refused to answer more than 40 questions about her daughter's case. It is thought she could be questioned later this week by detectives in Britain. A spokesman for the couple refused to speculate.

Discrepancies: There have been claims of discrepancies in the McCanns' version of events the night Madeleine disappeared. Mr McCann allegedly told police he entered the apartment via a locked front door, but later said he had gone in through the open back terrace that overlooked the tapas bar where the couple were eating with friends. Mrs McCann's claim that the back window was open and the blind raised when she discovered Madeleine missing was allegedly contradicted by other witnesses. The couple say they checked their children regularly but have not gone into details because they are bound by secrecy laws. Mrs McCann described this gagging order as "really, really frustrating".

The mystery man: Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, said she saw a man carrying what looked like a child away from the McCanns' apartment at 9.15pm but Jeremy Wilks, a television producer, has come forward to say he was standing in the street at the time and saw no one. He said he met Mr McCann, who appeared calm and unflustered, having just checked on his children. They talked for five minutes before Mr McCann returned to the restaurant. He said Ms Tanner could not have seen anybody because he was talking to Mr McCann at the time and, because the street was so narrow, would have seen anyone who passed by.

[vms]

vms- thank you. So these are apartments possibly with washers and dyers. I wonder if O'Brien placed his child in another bed while the sheets were bing cleaned?

Festa- I agree, it is a stretch. And I am most interested in Murat, Malinka and a pedophile ring. But that's just me. I just find Tanner odd. Odd in the fact that she seem to place herself in the exact area where Maddy may have last been seen and could have withheld that info. Odd in the fact that she seems to be possibly establishing an alibi and witnesses before any are needed and no one is looking at her. She could just be an oddball... the world is full of em.

Good question. So where were the sheets the next morning? Surely he didn't have time to wash, dry, and fold or replace the sheets on the bed during the time he was away from the restaurant.

Tanner and O'Brien are interesting to consider but I can't see the motive.

^{Tanner's pic doesn't help either but I might photograph the same under the circumstances... Sorry!}

[Rob]

Puzzler, there was an article yesterday that said this is the man that can clear the McCanns.

Someone is not telling the truth, or they have differing accounts of what occurred or he did not see anyone but the person exists. Three choices.

What do you think? whip out the lie detector? lololol...

[BlueKYGirl]

Not saying it is fact but I did read that O'Brien stated he put the sheets in the washing machine in the apartment.

Sometimes parents of young children take extra sheets along, just in case (especially in a situation where they know it'll be more like an apartment and less like a hotel).

[Rob]

vms- I don't think anyone has a motive but a pedophile. That's why the police tried to say it could have been an accident.

I see Gerry makes about 120,ooo pounds per year or $200,000 USD. A good bit of money, but not what a cardiologist might make in a free system. England has some form of socialized medicine and price controls.

I would imagine they all make a professional living for the jobs and responsibilities they have. I can not see money being a motive either... but again, who knows.

What are your views?

[Puzzler]

Rob....like your idea of "lie detector"..

That's what I was saying in an earlier post:  if you don't like what you read today, wait until tomorrow...the story will change.

[Tamikosmom]

Janet - here is the article on the 11:40 pm phone call between Murat and Malinka.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=a-phoney-alibi%2D%26method=full%26objectid=19131086%26siteid=89520-name_page.html

A PHONEY ALIBI?
THE HUNT FOR MADELEINE: 11.40pm call on the night she went missing Murat told police he was at home in bed Russian: We have not spoken for a year
Vanessa Allen And Martin Fricker In Praia Da Luz Vanessa.Allen@Mirror.Co.Uk 19/05/2007

Rob ...  thank you.

I want to bring to your attention ... an unrevealed communication record is the only source offered to readers in this article which attempts to implicate Robert Murat in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.  Vanessa Allen and Martin Fricker ... the authors of this article ... do not even make an attempt to source the remainder of their allegations.  Rob ... this is tabloid journalism at its best (worse?).  Anyways ... you know what I mean.

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

Janet - here is the article on the 11:40 pm phone call between Murat and Malinka.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=a-phoney-alibi%2D%26method=full%26objectid=19131086%26siteid=89520-name_page.html

A PHONEY ALIBI?
THE HUNT FOR MADELEINE: 11.40pm call on the night she went missing Murat told police he was at home in bed Russian: We have not spoken for a year
Vanessa Allen And Martin Fricker In Praia Da Luz Vanessa.Allen@Mirror.Co.Uk 19/05/2007

<snipped>

Rob ...  thank you.

I want to bring to your attention ... an unrevealed communication record is the only source offered to readers in this article which attempts to implicate Robert Murat in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.  Vanessa Allen and Martin Fricker ... the authors of this article ... do not even make an attempt to source the remainder of their allegations.  Rob ... this is tabloid journalism at its best (worse?).  Anyways ... you know what I mean.

Janet

[vms]

vms- I don't think anyone has a motive but a pedophile. That's why the police tried to say it could have been an accident.

I see Gerry makes about 120,ooo pounds per year or $200,000 USD. A good bit of money, but not what a cardiologist might make in a free system. England has some form of socialized medicine and price controls.

I would imagine they all make a professional living for the jobs and responsibilities they have. I can not see money being a motive either... but again, who knows.

What are your views?

If/when (when for Janet J/K ) the McCann's and/or friends are cleared, I would think it has to a pedophile or child sex ring. I found the problems at Casa Pia alarming. If it was as large a ring as it seemed, from the limited reading I did, there is no way all were apprehended, IMO.

[festa]

OK, I have more questions (again I am looking at everyone and every angle, if I seem to lean toward the McCanns innocence it is because I just can't believe this, until I see/hear proof positive, not just because a parent killing a child accidental or otherwise, But because I just can't see how they could get rid of her in a unknown country and I can't believe friends would lie and go along, at least not that many, anyway)

Just the same way that they left the children unattended, and I mean everyone that evening, I am bothered by the washing of Cuddle Cat - many people are - and I am of the mind that, this being my child's favorite toy, I would want to have this last piece of her that she touched, my only connection, I couldn't wash that away - That just strikes me odd - (guess this is more an observation than question) Any reason given as to why it needed to be cleaned and so soon after, 4 days, I believe has been reported - But in the same respect, Kate was the one (I believe) who mentioned to the police that Cuddle Cat was on a shelf and that Madeleine was put to bed with the toy - indicating that someone (an adult or someone tall) put it there because Madeleine could not reach - ???? - IF the McCanns did something, why mention the toy? forgot to get rid of it? washing of the toy bothers me - ANY more on the washing of the sheets?

Question - earlier it was "reported" (and we know how loose the reporting can be, but) that there was a syringe in the McCanns' apartment - Not true? or was this explained? false rumor?  

[BlueKYGirl]

Does anyone else find Mr./Dr. Oldfield's (can't remember his correct title) comments strange?

1. First he stated that he didn't even look inside the room.

2. Then he stated that he did look, but can't be sure if Madeleine was in there. Why can't he be sure? Don't you think if your purpose of going to the room was to check on a child--your own or someone else's--and one of those children weren't in her bed, that might be something you'd notice and remember? This statement reminds me of one of Paulus many statements in which he "cannot recall."

3. Then he said there was more light in the McCann children's room. Do we know what he was comparing the lighting in their room to? More light than the other rooms where children were sleeping? More light than last night when he checked on the McCanns? More light than another time he was in the room? More light than what?

It may not be significant, but I think his statement about the light after the fact was to imply that there was an intruder and support the McCanns' story. I believe that sometimes clues come when people try to add details to support whatever agenda they're trying to present. Furthermore, if there had been more light in the McCann room, why can't he verify whether or not Madeleine was in there?

Some of the posters on the Mirror forums (take this for what you will) said that the blinds in resorts in Spain and Portugal are often designed to be opened from the inside, but they get jammed if you try to open them from the outside, for security reasons. No source on that...and I don't think any of the posters had actually been in the McCanns' apartment, but take it for what it's worth.

[vms]

OK, I have more questions (again I am looking at everyone and every angle, if I seem to lean toward the McCanns innocence it is because I just can't believe this, until I see/hear proof positive, not just because a parent killing a child accidental or otherwise, But because I just can't see how they could get rid of her in a unknown country and I can't believe friends would lie and go along, at least not that many, anyway)

Just the same way that they left the children unattended, and I mean everyone that evening, I am bothered by the washing of Cuddle Cat - many people are - and I am of the mind that, this being my child's favorite toy, I would want to have this last piece of her that she touched, my only connection, I couldn't wash that away - That just strikes me odd - (guess this is more an observation than question) Any reason given as to why it needed to be cleaned and so soon after, 4 days, I believe has been reported - But in the same respect, Kate was the one (I believe) who mentioned to the police that Cuddle Cat was on a shelf and that Madeleine was put to bed with the toy - indicating that someone (an adult or someone tall) put it there because Madeleine could not reach - ???? - IF the McCanns did something, why mention the toy? forgot to get rid of it? washing of the toy bothers me - ANY more on the washing of the sheets?

Question - earlier it was "reported" (and we know how loose the reporting can be, but) that there was a syringe in the McCanns' apartment - Not true? or was this explained? false rumor?  

Ok, here I go again. 

I read that she washed it because of the condition it was in when returned to her after testing???
I dunno...

[festa]

Does anyone else find Mr./Dr. Oldfield's (can't remember his correct title) comments strange?

1. First he stated that he didn't even look inside the room.

2. Then he stated that he did look, but can't be sure if Madeleine was in there. Why can't he be sure? Don't you think if your purpose of going to the room was to check on a child--your own or someone else's--and one of those children weren't in her bed, that might be something you'd notice and remember? This statement reminds me of one of Paulus many statements in which he "cannot recall."

3. Then he said there was more light in the McCann children's room. Do we know what he was comparing the lighting in their room to? More light than the other rooms where children were sleeping? More light than last night when he checked on the McCanns? More light than another time he was in the room? More light than what?

It may not be significant, but I think his statement about the light after the fact was to imply that there was an intruder and support the McCanns' story. I believe that sometimes clues come when people try to add details to support whatever agenda they're trying to present. Furthermore, if there had been more light in the McCann room, why can't he verify whether or not Madeleine was in there?

Some of the posters on the Mirror forums (take this for what you will) said that the blinds in resorts in Spain and Portugal are often designed to be opened from the inside, but they get jammed if you try to open them from the outside, for security reasons. No source on that...and I don't think any of the posters had actually been in the McCanns' apartment, but take it for what it's worth.

Yes, this is what I posted earlier, regarding the blinds, I do believe that is what he was trying to say, that someone messed with the blinds, BUT with your post from the Mirror forum regarding them being opened from the outside, that is different - that would suggest someone peering inside - Not quite sure I am getting how that works?  Are they glass shutters?  Again, I know, this is unsubstantiated, just post from a forum, but I think that is worth looking into -
regarding what he "actually" said, IDK if we know what he "actually" said - it depends on what press we read, I think...makes for a very confusing read -