Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[SunnyinTX]

Hi Monks!  a big thanks to Muffy, Angie, VMS, Puzzler, Tamikosmom,, festa, BlueKYGirl and Klaas for the updates the past couple of days...I haven't had much time to read the past couple of days, but knew.. I know I would find everything right here....THANKS to y'all!!

A BIG MONKEY THANKS

[klaasend]

Fixed it for you Sunny 

[SunnyinTX]

Fixed it for you Sunny 

thanks

[SunnyinTX]

ooopsss my computer hiccupped!  thanks Klaas

[vms]

Hi Monks!  a big thanks to Muffy, Angie, VMS, Puzzler, Tamikosmom,, festa, BlueKYGirl and Klaas for the updates the past couple of days...I haven't had much time to read the past couple of days, but knew.. I know I would find everything right here....THANKS to y'all!!

A BIG MONKEY THANKS

Glad to see you back! 

[Anna]

Who's who in Team McCann


This week, Kate and Gerry McCann hired a new spokesman - and their campaign to clear their names and find their daughter Madeleine has taken a more positive turn. Aida Edemariam profiles the people helping behind the scenes

Thursday September 20, 2007
The Guardian


Clarence Mitchell, 46
Mitchell is on his second tour of McCann support as their official spokesperson. Two weeks after Madeleine disappeared he was sent by the Foreign Office to provide "consular support in exceptional circumstances". He spent weeks with the family, organising their trips across Europe, and, according to Gerry McCann, the couple's visit to Rome to meet the Pope. In June, he returned to his job as director of the Central Office of Information's Media Monitoring Unit, but quit this week in order to devote himself to the McCann cause full time. Before he became a civil servant, Mitchell was a BBC journalist who reported from Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq - and on the royal family, a role which coincided with the death of Diana, Princess of Wales.


Article continues

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Richard Branson, 57
The Virgin entrepreneur - worth, according to the Sunday Times Rich List, an estimated £3.1bn - has apparently been following the McCanns' story with great interest from the beginning. He has been in regular contact with them and had already provided a £100,000 reward for information leading to Madeleine's return before he heard that the McCanns might have to sell their home to pay for their legal defence. (They feared a public backlash if they dipped into the Find Madeleine Fund, which has so far received more than £1m.) Determined that the McCanns should receive a fair hearing, he began a second fund by donating £100,000.

Michael Caplan QC, 54

One of two British lawyers the McCanns have hired to defend them against suggestions that they might have had a hand in their daughter's disappearance. A part-time judge in the crown court and a chairman of the police disciplinary appeal tribunal, Caplan has a reputation in the profession for unflashy reliability and tenacity; in Chambers UK 2007, A Client's Guide to the Legal Profession, he is described as "the weapon of choice for battleship cases". He certainly has experience in dealing with cases in which there is huge media interest, having successfully defended Pinochet against extradition to Spain when he was arrested in the UK in 1998. He also defended the captain of the dredger Bowbelle, whose collision with the Marchioness on the Thames in 1989 resulted in the deaths of 51 people.

Angus McBride, 42

McBride is, like Caplan, a partner in the legal firm Kingsley Napley. He is particularly experienced in defending the reputations of celebrities, or accidental celebrities, such as the McCanns. He represented the actor Chris Langham, who has just been jailed for downloading child porn, and defended various professional footballers, including John Terry, charged with and acquitted of affray in 2002, and two Premiership players accused of rape in 2003. He is currently acting in Sir John Stevens's inquiry into past collusion between soldiers, police officers and paramilitary gunmen in Northern Ireland.

Carlos Pinto de Abreu, 40

De Abreu, a Lisbon lawyer, has offered his services to the McCanns for free, and began his job by filing a libel suit against a Portuguese tabloid, Tal & Qual, which claimed that police believed the McCanns administered their daughter a fatal drug overdose. He has also applied to the district attorney for a change in the couple's formal status, from "witness" to "assistant" in the investigation. This would mean they would be allowed to know more about it. A specialist in human rights, De Abreu is the president of the human rights committee for the Portuguese bar association.

John McCann, 48

One of seven directors of the Find Madeleine Fund, Gerry McCann's brother has taken indefinite leave of absence from his job as a medical rep for the pharmaceutical company AstraZeneca in order to administrate the £1m fund from his Glasgow sitting room. Worried that focus on allegations about her parents has overshadowed the search for the four-year-old, he has just announced a new campaign of billboards, television commercials and advertisements in newspapers across Portugal and Spain. Retired teacher Brian Kennedy, Kate McCann's uncle, is a fellow director.

Esther McVey, 39

McVey has been friends with Kate McCann since they went to school together and is a board member and spokesperson for the Find Madeleine Fund. A former television personality - she appeared on GMTV and in programmes such as 5's Company, The Heaven and Earth Show, Shopping City and Channel 4's Nothing But The Truth with Ann Widdecombe - McVey now runs a PR firm in Liverpool, and hopes to become a Tory MP at the next general election. A former girlfriend of shadow culture minister Ed Vaizey, she narrowly failed to win Wirral West in 2005, losing by about 1,000 votes to Labour's Stephen Hesford.

Philomena McCann, 43

A high school teacher from Glasgow, Gerry McCann's sister often speaks to the press on the family's behalf. She is popular among reporters for her fierceness and colourful Glaswegian vocabulary, but occasionally strays off-message - such as when she told Sky that Portuguese police (of whom she is not fond) had offered Kate a two-year sentence in return for admitting accidental manslaughter. Gerry was still being interviewed by police, and Philomena had got the story somewhat garbled (they did not offer a plea bargain, but were exploring the possibility of accidental death). But, as reported in this paper, British journalists treated her statement as tacit permission to start reporting allegations against the McCanns.





Related articles
07.09.2007: Timeline: Madeleine McCann case
08.05.2007: Q&A: Madeleine McCann
06.05.2007: For parents, our best is not always enough

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2172934,00.html

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This is what I dislike most about this entire investigation.  Why on earth did the British government send PR people to assist the McCanns in their "campaign"?  I feel that public opinion was biased to favor the parents right from the start.

Can you imagine the U.S. government sending a team to assist Beth Twitty when Natalee was discovered missing?  This does not seem something a government should get involved in doing, at least in my opinion, because as in this case, what if the parents were responsible?

The same people promoting the McCanns as do politicians and I know what I think of politicians!  I feel manipulated to believe the parents innocent before an investigation was ever conducted and don't like that. 

I also don't quite know what to think of all these people taking this on as a full time job but that just seems wrong to me.

What would public opinion be had we not been treated to professional spin doctors working for the McCanns?  Might much more have been made of their practice of leaving three children ages three and under alone night after night as we now know that they did?  And note the phrase "accidental celebrities" for this should be about Madeleine and not about making her parents famous.

I think so.

JMO
.

[Rob]

Anna- awesome opinions as always.

I feel this case will not be solved unless Madeleine magically reappears, dead or alive. Too much time has passed and the scene was not properly investigated. The two elements need to virtually ensure no resolution.

There are only suspicious statements from the three 'arguidos'. It appears to be a stalemate and the police do not appear at all certain what happened. Like the police, I have no idea what happened to Madeleine. I have suspicions, but that's all they are ~ SUSPICIONS. I would estimate that only about 10% of what we have heard is truly reliable.

I am still keeping an open mind.

As for the PR campaign, I have no idea why the British Government decided to get involved. Everything is done just little bit differently over in Europe and very little of it makes sense to me personally. I don't understand the Dutch mindset anymore than the British.

Absent a confession and someone leading the authorities to the body or to a live Madeleine, it could drag on for years with no end in sight.

Unless Madeleine is proven to ave been abducted by a pedophile and that person can be charged and convicted, the McCanns will always be the number one suspects. The court of public opinion has already (for the most part) convicted them of neglect and has made the jump to murder and disposal.

jmo anyway..

[Anna]

Well, they supposedly had areas already cordoned off for searching yesterday and I have not seen anything on that so suppose this means nothing was found.  Or the searches not yet done for whatever reasons.

I tend to disagree, Rob.  I think the McCanns have received tremendous support to the tune of over $2,600,000.00 and now this second huge fund for their legal expenses!  They have been cast in the role of the totally innocent and grieving parents, deservedly so or not, by this massive PR campaign.  It's just too slick for my taste and I don't like having my opinion manipulated by professionals like this.

I think everything from the way they dress to Kate carrying around the Cuddle Kat are orchestrated by the PR people and we do not know the real McCanns at all because of this.

Whether or not people would think differently of them if we had seen them before or without this PR machine in place we will never know.  That I do find just plain odd.

But I think public opinion remains mixed or even slanted in favor of the parents.  I just hope it's not like the boy who asked the judge for mercy for killing his parents because he was now an orphan.

At the least, they are guilty of neglect, no way around that as those kids were just too young to leave alone at all.  But you are correct, unless Madeleine is located, I don't see any resolution in this at all.  And now some seem to be making a career of it all instead of seeking a quick resolution to the investigation. 

I do hope something is found to bring about closure in this but as with many similar cases, I am not very hopeful that it will.  No one knows what happened to this little girl except for the ones involved in her disappearance so the police have their work cut out for them. 

.

[Tamikosmom]

Hi Anna ... it has been a while ... hope all is well.

The McCanns were the last persons in the company of their daughter prior to the alleged abduction.  The McCanns were not only declared formal suspects which implies reasonable suspicion ... their files were passed up the chain of command  two more levels ... the prosecutor ... the judge ... implying that evidence was gathered and charges are being considered.

Nevertheless ... it appears that the McCann's high political connections in Britain are entering the scenario.

While in Portugual the McCanns hired "Bell Pottinger crisis management consultant Alex Woolfall, Sheree Dodd, a former spokeswoman for the Government, and former treasury special advisor Justine McGuinness".

Recently the McCanns have haired have "hired a new PR agency to help manage an increasingly sceptical media. Hanover, the agency owned by John Major's former press secretary Charles Lewington have been given the brief."

Something is not right!

Janet

[Rob]

Anna- The McCanns certainly did receive an out pouring of support. Both monetarily and in compassion. However, since they have been named official suspects and the police leaked statements and evidential findings, that most people consider reliable, the public opinion seems to have shifted.

Whether the police have any actual evidence ~ I'm not sure. They could have evidence or it could have all been trumped to get a confession. I have no idea.

I saw a poll last night that was linked on the Mirror (and could have been set-up by someone on the Mirror board) that indicates 95 percent believe the parents are involved. Again, I don't place too much credence in an internet poll. People vote an unlimited amount of times and the results are hardly scientific. I don't place much credence in political polls either. They really do not prove too much....

At sometime I believe the McCanns will have to answer to the neglect charges. There is not way around that. They have admitted that. However, if there is a real desire to find Madeleine, that should be put off until the case is closed / cold cased or solved. Who knows how long that could take??

I, personally, don't buy into whether someone wears a cross all of a sudden or not, or carries a bible. Or carries Cuddle Cat. I look at their overall demeanor and the public statements they make. Maybe they have me fooled. I have been fooled before. Not often, but we all have.

One thing that raises my alarm is the fact that the McCanns could have kept checking on their kids all night by themselves and not allowed anyone else to check. That way they could have said Madeleine was there all night and disappeared sometime during the night and expanded their window or time-line if they were truly involved. A 6-8 hours opening allows them much more time to commit a crime and doesn't allow them to be charged with neglect.
If they claim that someone broke into their apartment during the night while they were sleeping and abducted Maddy, it could allow them to get off scot-free. So, arranging to have a friend check and narrowing the window of opportunity seems to be a poorly calculated risk if they were not in fact innocence. They could have said goodnight to their friends and then disposed of Maddy. They would have had all night to accomplish that goal and no one would have been the wiser. The time-line would have been  - said good night, went to bed, woke up and Maddy was gone.

No one would have been any wiser. Instead Kate alerts everyone. And according to some called Sky News before the police. (I have no idea if that is true). This places them not only in the sights of the police, but every sleuth out there.

Trading neglect for murder / accidental death seems like a stretch to me.

[Rob]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482811&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

Portuguese police u-turn: 'Madeleine may have been abducted'
Last updated at 18:06pm on 20th September 2007

Portuguese detectives have admitted that missing Madeleine McCann may have been abducted - after not finding enough evidence to to further question Kate and Gerry McCann.

In a dramatic u-turn police have once again reverted to earlier theories that the four-year-old may have been snatched or involved in an accident.

After focusing their energies on the McCanns as prime suspects in the case for the last two weeks, police have reached an "impasse" according to sources.

The news came as it was revealed that the McCanns would not face a second round of questioning by Portuguese detectives due to a lack of evidence.

The Judge in the inquiry denied Portuguese police permission to interrogate the McCanns for a second time.

Prosecutor Luis Bilro Verao has made it clear all lines of inquiry, including kidnap or accident, are still open.

The news was immediately relayed to the two 39-year-old doctors at their home in Rothley, Leicestershire, and the pair "expressed relief" at the decision.

Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "On the face of it, this is very encouraging. Clearly it is now their Portuguese lawyer to assess very carefully."

Although the couple have been told they will not immediately face any more questions, detectives in Portugal have been given the go-ahead to oversee the collection of further evidence in Leicestershire.

But the couple, who today visited solicitors Kingsley Napley in central London, are still officially suspects, or "arguidos".

The McCanns, both 39, could still be called back to Portugal if new evidence emerges.

The latest twist in the 18-week saga was the most dramatic of a series of developments yesterday. Among them:

• Sources close to the McCanns said they fear their phone calls and emails are being intercepted;

• British scientists analysing the DNA evidence were said to be furious about misleading leaks to the Portuguese media;

• An intelligence expert said photographs taken by spy satellites could hold the key to Madeleine's disappearance.

The couple's legal team have been concerned that they are trying to put together a defence 'in the dark' against allegations that might never be made.

Prosecutor Verao, who was brought in to lead the case by Portugal's Attorney-General last week, said in a statement: "Fresh evidence justifying new interrogations has not been obtained since the original interrogations carried out on September 7. New interrogations have not been determined."

He added: "Inquiries are continuing. No line of investigation is ruled out."

The DNA evidence is still being analysed by experts from the UK's Forensic Science Service.

Last night a scientist who claims to have spoken to them said they were angry at reports in the Portuguese press.

He said: "The forensic evidence is far from absolute - on a scale of one to ten, it's more like a two.

"But it has been portrayed as being much more absolute than the FSS are.

"The relationship between the Portuguese authorities and the FSS is not very good as a result.

"They feel their results have been exaggerated to put pressure on the McCanns.

"If it is the police behind this, it's a disgrace."

Some reports suggest the DNA evidence is so weak it has been impossible to tell if hair found in the McCanns' hire car - which they collected some five weeks after Madeleine vanished - matches the missing girl or her twin brother and sister Sean and Amelie.

Last week a Leicestershire Police source close to the inquiry called the DNA evidence 'flaky' and said it would never stand up in a British court.

A spokesman for the FSS said tests on material from the case were 'ongoing' but would not comment further.

The McCanns have been offered help over the DNA evidence from a lawyer in Northern Ireland.

Solicitor Paul Corrigan is defending an alleged Real IRA terrorist accused of murdering 29 people in the 1998 Omagh bombing.

The case gave him experience in challenging 'Low Copy Number DNA' or LCN DNA, a method of magnifying minute traces of body matter that are inadequate for more established DNA analysis.

Critics claims LCN DNA is not reliable enough to stand up in court - and it may be involved in the case against the McCanns.

Mr Corrigan has volunteered to help the couple, whose spokesman said last night they were considering his offer.

The idea of using spy satellite pictures came from Professor Glees, director of Brunel University's Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies.

He said the little-known Joint Air Reconnaissance Intelligence Centre, based at RAF Brampton, Cambridgeshire, was a world leader in analysing aerial and satellite imagery.

It could be ordered to collect and examine all the imagery that can be found of Praia da Luz, where the McCanns were on holiday, dating back to May 2.

Professor Glees went on: "The Prime Minister and the Ministry of Defence should instruct JARIC and its colleagues in the British intelligence community to intervene at once.

"It is perfectly possible that the European Commission's satellites, which track fishing boats, may also be able to shed light on Madeleine's fate. JARIC will quickly tell us."

A spokesman for the McCanns said: "The professor's suggestion is certainly interesting - and if it could really shed light on Madeleine's disappearance we might take it further."

• A restaurant owner who is one of the last people to have seen Madeleine McCann yesterday told how she danced with her father on the seafront hours before she vanished.

Miguel Matias said Kate and Gerry McCann, their children and their holiday friends spent an hour at his restaurant Paraiso on the beach at Praia da Luz.

Mr McCann played with Madeleine in the sand at the front of the establishment and pushed her on a swing before calling her to the table for food and an ice cream.

"It was a perfectly-normal, relaxed family-scene," said Mr Matias, speaking publicly for the first time.

"The little girl was even dancing with her dad to the sound of music that was playing. We didn't see anyone suspicious looking at her or anything out of the ordinary."

Mr Matias's evidence confirms Madeleine was alive and well at 6pm, when the family left the restaurant.

Previously 2.29pm has been the latest time known to the general public, when the last photograph of her was taken as she played in the pool.

[SunnyinTX]

Hi Monks!  a big thanks to Muffy, Angie, VMS, Puzzler, Tamikosmom,, festa, BlueKYGirl and Klaas for the updates the past couple of days...I haven't had much time to read the past couple of days, but knew.. I know I would find everything right here....THANKS to y'all!!

A BIG MONKEY THANKS

Glad to see you back! 

thanks vms..it's good to be back at my computer and with my monks!

[Puzzler]

Hi, Anna.  I agree with a lot of what you said.

I've only been following this case closely for the last 2 weeks.  The one thing I've learned is that if you don't agree with what you read today, wait 2 days and you can read the opposite.  The "spin" is so strong that it's confusing to try to follow it all.

FYI - it was leaked to the press that the McCann's were thinking of using the Maddie fund for their legal expenses; however, the "people" became so vociferous that the idea was dropped within a couple of days.  The McCanns have now set up a fund for their legal fees and Richard Branson immediately donated a very large sum of mone to that fund.

I can't get over all the high-placed people quitting their jobs to tend to the McCann's P/R campaign.  It's odd. And the spin REALLY took off once that P/R campaign started.

What I glean from all of this is that the Portuguese police are waiting for further DNA results to come in; they're keeping "facts" to themselves (maybe a little leak here-and-there); Portuguese dectectives arrived in England yesterday to work with British police on the case; they want to question the friends that went on vacation with the McCann's again (some discrepancies in their versions of the events of the night Madeleine went missing - especially with the time line); they've had the British police commandeer Kate's daily handwritten journal and Gerry's laptop; and, they've said they don't want to question the McCann's further because they have no new evidence to question them on at this time - that doesn't mean they will NEVER question the McCann's again. 

[Puzzler]

I'm teetering on the fence right now - you know - could go either way and I certainly want to go the way of the parents being innocent.  I know they say that people don't really know how they would act if their child that went missing.....but....there is one thing we've heard that keeps creeping up again in my mind:  When Kate found Madeleine was missing she ran from the room/apartment all the way back to where her friends were having dinner, some distance away, and in doing that, she left her two other children alone in that same room. 

What do you all think.

Actually, I should say "y'all" - Georgia girl here!

[vms]

How the PR campaign and political connections came about?

<Snipped>


The McCanns were immediately certain that their daughter had been kidnapped and determined to publicise her disappearance as widely as possible, ensuring that, from the very first moments, the hunt for Madeleine was as much about the media coverage as it was the police investigation. Jill Renwick has known the couple since they all worked together at a Glasgow hospital more than a decade ago. She spoke to Kate at 7am on the morning after Madeleine vanished: "She just said, 'Help me, please help me'. She said, 'We've been searching all night until 4.30am, and then everybody left us'. At that stage there was only one police officer at the door. They didn't know what to do. So I phoned GMTV."

She also phoned the McCanns' wider circle of friends, who mobilised to phone anyone they could think of to beg for help. Renwick's sister called someone she knew in CID, someone had a connection with Des Browne, the defence secretary. One friend lives close to the Newsnight presenter Kirsty Wark, said Renwick: "She knocked on her door and said, 'I know you must think I'm mad but my friend's wee girl is missing, can you do anything to help?' Though they are not friends, Gordon Brown's brother John lives in the same street as Renwick: "I stopped him in the street the day afterwards and said, 'These are my friends. Do you think you could speak to Gordon about it?' And he said of course. I don't know if anything came about that way."

In Praia da Luz, meanwhile, the couple rapidly found themselves the beneficiaries of high-level media advice. The holiday firm Mark Warner reacted with admirable speed to the kidnap. By Saturday morning its managing director and UK operations director were in the resort, along with two trauma counsellors and Alex Woolfall, a PR specialist contracted by the firm. Woolfall, head of crisis management at leading PR agency Bell Pottinger, who advised Monsanto during the storm over GM food, would become for a fortnight the family's adviser and press go-between. He is probably one of the people in Britain best placed to manage such a situation, and it showed. Very swiftly, the storm of TV and print journalists camped outside the family's apartment had established a number of informal rules of engagement: Kate and Gerry would be left largely alone to take their twins to playgroup, for instance; TV cameras would remain fixed. It was made known to reporters that the family wanted their daughter to be referred to as Madeleine rather than the tabloid-coined Maddy.

"We were aware from the outset that there was a huge amount of media interest," said Woolfall, "and they in all the conversations I had with them were very keen to see the media as a partner."

Thus began a carefully scheduled round of interviews, photo-opportunities and press conferences. Helped by the wider family at home, additional photographs were released of Madeleine: a picture of the toddler in an Everton top mobilised the club and Kenwright, its chairman, to their own gestures of support. A holiday snap of the family in Donegal was splashed across the Irish papers. Vigils in Scotland and Leicestershire ensured the presence of their local media in Praia da Luz.

Back in the UK, relatives launched a website and fund to handle some of the many thousands of offers of support they had received; in the first 48 hours the site had received 75m hits, becoming the fastest-growing website on the internet. But however much access the family offer, they cannot hope to meet a demand that remains, a month on, apparently insatiable. Some 62% of all traffic on the Google news website last week consisted of searches about Madeleine.

Woolfall said that, despite their determination to appear before the press as much as possible, the couple have been amazed at the interest in their story. "This couple don't suddenly see themselves as celebrities. If you had actually met them, sat in their apartment and seen them with the twins, they are just like any other couple. But they find themselves having to ask themselves: what can we possibly do that means we will be able to sleep tonight, knowing that we have done everything today that we could have done?"

Brian Kennedy, Kate McCann's uncle, is also chair of the Find Madeleine fund. "There have been a number of sizeable donations but there have also been a huge number of very small ones. It's been very moving. We're incredibly grateful." Part of the money raised - £581,000 by yesterday afternoon - will be used to support the wider family in their campaigning, he said.

Woolfall left Praia da Luz after a fortnight; the McCanns are now being advised on behalf of the Foreign Office by Clarence Mitchell, a former BBC reporter. He organised, in association with British embassies around Europe, the current publicity tour. If anything, say members of the still sizeable press pack accompanying the McCanns, the media operation has become even more professional.

Link

[vms]

I'm teetering on the fence right now - you know - could go either way and I certainly want to go the way of the parents being innocent.  I know they say that people don't really know how they would act if their child that went missing.....but....there is one thing we've heard that keeps creeping up again in my mind:  When Kate found Madeleine was missing she ran from the room/apartment all the way back to where her friends were having dinner, some distance away, and in doing that, she left her two other children alone in that same room. 

What do you all think.

Actually, I should say "y'all" - Georgia girl here!

Well, fiddle-dee-dee, Puzzler! Georgia girl here too. 

That bothers me also. No way would I have left the twins alone AGAIN! I keep trying to remind myself that all these stories we are reading cannot be verified. That is one I hope is debunked. I read this morning that Kate did not run out yelling, "They've taken her..." Now an eyewitness claims it was more like, "Madeleine's gone!" Who knows what to believe?

[sharon]

Well, fiddle-dee-dee, Puzzler! Georgia girl here too. 

That bothers me also. No way would I have left the twins alone AGAIN! I keep trying to remind myself that all these stories we are reading cannot be verified. That is one I hope is debunked. I read this morning that Kate did not run out yelling, "They've taken her..." Now an eyewitness claims it was more like, "Madeleine's gone!" Who knows what to believe?

One point I've just wanted to mention -- and I'm NOT judging -- is that European customs are different.

There was a Scandinavian couple arrested around here (south florida) a few years ago, for leaving their baby in a stroller outside of a restaurant while they went in and had dinner.

This is a very common practice in parts of Europe. I've seen it first hand in Norway, France and Spain. They didn't think they were doing anything wrong (I guess Miami Vice wasn't a big show in Scandinavia).

It was very controversial. They were eventually let go, but not after a lot of publicity and angst. And judging of the parents.

I'm NOT saying it was right -- and I'm NOT saying this is the case with the McCann's -- I just want to point out that customs that we, as Americans, consider close to 'child abuse' are accepted in other parts of our world.

(ok -- I'm going to find a flame retardant suit, now)

[MumInOhio]

I'm teetering on the fence right now - you know - could go either way and I certainly want to go the way of the parents being innocent.  I know they say that people don't really know how they would act if their child that went missing.....but....there is one thing we've heard that keeps creeping up again in my mind:  When Kate found Madeleine was missing she ran from the room/apartment all the way back to where her friends were having dinner, some distance away, and in doing that, she left her two other children alone in that same room. 

What do you all think.

Actually, I should say "y'all" - Georgia girl here!

Well, fiddle-dee-dee, Puzzler! Georgia girl here too. 

That bothers me also. No way would I have left the twins alone AGAIN! I keep trying to remind myself that all these stories we are reading cannot be verified. That is one I hope is debunked. I read this morning that Kate did not run out yelling, "They've taken her..." Now an eyewitness claims it was more like, "Madeleine's gone!" Who knows what to believe?

On the fence on this one too. Leaving the twins bothers me and also if they arrived at the restaurant at 8.30 or 8.55.  If it was 8.55 I don't think they would have checked on them at 9.05 already.

[pdh3]

I don't know what I believe about that...except that Kate may have been in a panic, and not thinking clearly. And I don't think it was all that far away.
The parents have stated that they thought the place where they were staying was very safe, and that they regret leaving the kids alone. As parents, we have all made mistakes in judgement while raising our children. Unfortunately, the McCanns mistake may have cost Madeleine her life. And didn't the other parents in the group also leave their kids alone? It seems that they all felt that the resort was safe enough for them to put their kids to bed and step away to have dinner. No one in the group was concerned....so all of them have to be charged with neglect because they all left their kids. In retrospect, it was a terrible idea, but maybe at the time it seemed perfectly ok.
I have some good friends who put their 4 kids to bed, and then walked around the neighborhood together every night, getting their daily exercise in. They were gone for over an hour, but checked in periodically. They are wonderful, caring parents, but they saw no problem with leaving their small children, because we live in a community that is considered very safe. If one of their children had disappeared, they would have been called negligent. I wouldn't have left my kids like they did, but these are good people who had a different standard for safety than I did. But I would not ever think they would knowingly harm their children. Some people just don't see the dangers that others do.
There are so many troubling things about the investigation, and how it was mishandled. I do think the parents should have been investigated, but not to the exclusion of other suspects, and other theories. I'm afraid that little girl will never be found due to all this chaos in the investigation.

[vms]

Well, fiddle-dee-dee, Puzzler! Georgia girl here too. 

That bothers me also. No way would I have left the twins alone AGAIN! I keep trying to remind myself that all these stories we are reading cannot be verified. That is one I hope is debunked. I read this morning that Kate did not run out yelling, "They've taken her..." Now an eyewitness claims it was more like, "Madeleine's gone!" Who knows what to believe?

One point I've just wanted to mention -- and I'm NOT judging -- is that European customs are different.

There was a Scandinavian couple arrested around here (south florida) a few years ago, for leaving their baby in a stroller outside of a restaurant while they went in and had dinner.

This is a very common practice in parts of Europe. I've seen it first hand in Norway, France and Spain. They didn't think they were doing anything wrong (I guess Miami Vice wasn't a big show in Scandinavia).

It was very controversial. They were eventually let go, but not after a lot of publicity and angst. And judging of the parents.

I'm NOT saying it was right -- and I'm NOT saying this is the case with the McCann's -- I just want to point out that customs that we, as Americans, consider close to 'child abuse' are accepted in other parts of our world.

(ok -- I'm going to find a flame retardant suit, now)

You don't need that suit for protection from me, lol.

It could very well be the case. Not to mention if all the other couples were doing it somehow it becomes ok? That doesn't make sense. Acceptable because the others were doing the same?
I give up, lol. Hopefully you follow my drift.