Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Bobo2]

BB...there has been so much said about the dna..it is hard to discern any truths. First it was blood, then hair, then "fluids". Then it was a perfect match...next 88%...next not a match. I do remember hearing that the man who developed the test they used to test the dna source said he would testify on behalf of the McCanns that if the test was not found to be in the high 90 percentile range, it was not reliable and that it could simply have been dna from the twins. Then didn't I read it was the twins "nappies"? Are those diapers? In reality, I don't there there has been one ounce of reliable evidence that has been "leaked". It is just all smoke and mirrors to cover up the PLE's incompetent investigation.
You know, we are always so meticulous about discerning the truths and asking for links to the facts we quote. There just are not many places to go for "facts" in this case. That is why I am having a hard time understanding why some are so convinced the McCanns are involved. The timeframe is not there for me...nor the opportunity for the "disposal", digging up, and re disposal. We can clearly see the opportunity that j2k had for the cover up...but I just don't see it here!! These people were constantly under the media's watchful eye!! Some of these theories are absolutely ridiculous!! They were not at all familiar with the area. And in my mind, these are two loving, caring parents who are absolutely devastated at losing their daughter and doing everything in their power to find her!!!

Exactly! You must have read my mind.

[robots]

if we can say that Natalee was moved a couple of times (which i believe she was)
well, then it is certainly within the realm of possibilty that a small child was also moved a couple of times, with the help of one of the tapas 9




this is one of the similiarties

[ldstlou]

BB...there has been so much said about the dna..it is hard to discern any truths. First it was blood, then hair, then "fluids". Then it was a perfect match...next 88%...next not a match. I do remember hearing that the man who developed the test they used to test the dna source said he would testify on behalf of the McCanns that if the test was not found to be in the high 90 percentile range, it was not reliable and that it could simply have been dna from the twins. Then didn't I read it was the twins "nappies"? Are those diapers? In reality, I don't there there has been one ounce of reliable evidence that has been "leaked". It is just all smoke and mirrors to cover up the PLE's incompetent investigation.
You know, we are always so meticulous about discerning the truths and asking for links to the facts we quote. There just are not many places to go for "facts" in this case. That is why I am having a hard time understanding why some are so convinced the McCanns are involved. The timeframe is not there for me...nor the opportunity for the "disposal", digging up, and re disposal. We can clearly see the opportunity that j2k had for the cover up...but I just don't see it here!! These people were constantly under the media's watchful eye!! Some of these theories are absolutely ridiculous!! They were not at all familiar with the area. And in my mind, these are two loving, caring parents who are absolutely devastated at losing their daughter and doing everything in their power to find her!!!

Exactly! You must have read my mind.

two great minds.... lol

[Anna]

Perhaps the reason the PLE has "absolutely no credibility" is because they are so outgunned in the professional spin doctor/PR/campaign manager department as they have nothing to compare with the McCann PR machine with it's full time employees and hundreds of thousands of dollars in backing generated by the successful media coverage they have garnered.

[robots]

a PROPERLY trained cadaver dog will alert on the scent of a dead person


this bothers me

[robots]

Perhaps the reason the PLE has "absolutely no credibility" is because they are so outgunned in the professional spin doctor/PR/campaign manager department as they have nothing to compare with the McCann PR machine with it's full time employees and hundreds of thousands of dollars in backing generated by the successful media coverage they have garnered.

yep 

[Anna]

a PROPERLY trained cadaver dog will alert on the scent of a dead person


this bothers me

And the cadaver dog was brought in by the British, did not have anything to do with PLE.

.

[ldstlou]

if we can say that Natalee was moved a couple of times (which i believe she was)
well, then it is certainly within the realm of possibilty that a small child was also moved a couple of times, with the help of one of the tapas 9




this is one of the similiarties

hmmm....I just think it is different robots. I mean...j2k along w/ paulus knew the landscape...knew where to go...and I think most agree it took cooperation with people in ALE to pull it off. They also had alot more time...10 days..before they were really looked at!!! So plenty of opportunity...but mainly...knowledge of the area...and at the same time..the Holloways and Twittys were being lead on a wild goose chase...AWAY...from where they were moving Natalee. It took quite a bit of effort to pull it off in Aruba. I just don't see how the McCanns could possibly do this in a strange place, w/out much access, no knowledge of the area, and with constant media attention.

[robots]

a PROPERLY trained cadaver dog will alert on the scent of a dead person


this bothers me

And the cadaver dog was brought in by the British, did not have anything to do with PLE.

.

EXACTLY
 

[ldstlou]

Perhaps the reason the PLE has "absolutely no credibility" is because they are so outgunned in the professional spin doctor/PR/campaign manager department as they have nothing to compare with the McCann PR machine with it's full time employees and hundreds of thousands of dollars in backing generated by the successful media coverage they have garnered.

I guess I just look at it as the McCanns have a lot of people who believe in them and who are willing to back them in their effort to find their daughter.

yep 

[Anna]

We have those last seen with the missing saying no body, no case same as in Aruba.  That's another similarity.

[SteveDinMD]

if a child were to be found dead and an autopsy were to be performed and the
child was found to have been sedated....

career is over for probably both parents

more than likely an autopsy would be performed and the sedatives would be found

im not saying that i know the child was sedated im saying "IF"

so, what does a parent do in this case...

cover it up so as to be able to keep the other 2 children and a career


or what if it was also a situation where the mother or father just snapped and whacked the kid...but didnt mean obviously to kill her...

what do you do then...?? take chance and have the other children taken away ?


the LAST people to see the girl were the parents

why have a SPIN MACHINE.......like the parents seem to have going on now

something seems hinky

I'm afraid you're mistaken.  The probably last person known to have been with Madeline prior to her disappearance was the member of the tapas party (Oldfield or O'Brien) who claimed to have "checked" on the McCann children without actually looking in on them.  How do we know he DIDN'T look in on them?  All we have is his word.  If he were, in fact, culpable, he would be expected to tell precisely this lie in order to cast suspicion from himself.  I don't actually consider this person to be the likeliest culprit, but given the factual circumstances he is far more likely than the parents.  

[robots]

if we can say that Natalee was moved a couple of times (which i believe she was)
well, then it is certainly within the realm of possibilty that a small child was also moved a couple of times, with the help of one of the tapas 9




this is one of the similiarties

hmmm....I just think it is different robots. I mean...j2k along w/ paulus knew the landscape...knew where to go...and I think most agree it took cooperation with people in ALE to pull it off. They also had alot more time...10 days..before they were really looked at!!! So plenty of opportunity...but mainly...knowledge of the area...and at the same time..the Holloways and Twittys were being lead on a wild goose chase...AWAY...from where they were moving Natalee. It took quite a bit of effort to pull it off in Aruba. I just don't see how the McCanns could possibly do this in a strange place, w/out much access, no knowledge of the area, and with constant media attention.

yes, i agree they knew the landscape. the evil jerks in Aruba

HOWEVER,
the police were not looking closely at the tapas 9 initially. the girl could have been with anyone of the tapas 9. not only that, we do NOT know if any of the tapas 9 were familiar with the area..maybe they were, maybe they were there the previous 10 years, maybe the they have relatives in the area, maybe they grew up around there...

my point is....easy enough to stash 3 year old for one NIGHT and then move the body somewhere else......later ---and in talking about the friends helping with the MOVE

[ldstlou]

a PROPERLY trained cadaver dog will alert on the scent of a dead person


this bothers me

And the cadaver dog was brought in by the British, did not have anything to do with PLE.

.

EXACTLY
 

ok...now don't shoot me!!! lol I know it appears I have an answer for everything tonight!!! lol I just feel really strongly about this case. But I have to tell you...at our Cub Scout Camp this summer...they brought in the police sniffer dogs to show us how they track people...and I was not unpressed!!! lol Long story..but one dog did not do well. They can make mistakes!! trust me...lol. And it may have been said, that they could have picked up the scent of death from Kate's clothes because she had been around cadavers at home. Not sure if that was speculation or not, but it could certainly be an explanation.

[Anna]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

[robots]

if a child were to be found dead and an autopsy were to be performed and the
child was found to have been sedated....

career is over for probably both parents

more than likely an autopsy would be performed and the sedatives would be found

im not saying that i know the child was sedated im saying "IF"

so, what does a parent do in this case...

cover it up so as to be able to keep the other 2 children and a career


or what if it was also a situation where the mother or father just snapped and whacked the kid...but didnt mean obviously to kill her...

what do you do then...?? take chance and have the other children taken away ?


the LAST people to see the girl were the parents

why have a SPIN MACHINE.......like the parents seem to have going on now

something seems hinky

I'm afraid you're mistaken.  The probably last person known to have been with Madeline prior to her disappearance was the member of the tapas party (Oldfield or O'Brien) who claimed to have "checked" on the McCann children without actually looking in on them.  How do we know he DIDN'T look in on them?  All we have is his word.  If he were, in fact, culpable, he would be expected to tell precisely this lie in order to cast suspicion from himself.  I don't actually consider this person to be the likeliest culprit, but given the factual circumstances he is far more likely than the parents.  

i know what you are saying, but if he didnt see the kids, then he wasnt the last to see them.
that of course is, if we beleive him

he may have looked in on them. BUT, the last KNOWN person to see them was the parents
that can be verified 

[MuffyBee]

I haven't ruled anybody out yet.  I couldn't say it IS the parents or ISN'T the parents, because I haven't seen the evidence.  I hope it isn't.  I believe the investigation was started very poorly, and it seems the parents weren't even interviewed fully to at least rule them out as suspects in the beginning. I believe Kate McCann was questioned the day after, but doesn't appear to be very extensively.  The reason I say the parents, their friends and hotel employees, nearby guests etc. should have been interviewed right away is because even small details at the time could be big clues later.  As time passes things are forgotten or things are remembered differently.  The crime scene wasn't secured, nor the car.  Were their friends rooms checked?  Should have been done as a routine investigation, wouldn't you think?  But no one even thought about them or the parents.  What about Jessica Lunsford?  Her Dad was interviewed extensively.  He was ruled out as a suspect.  But he was certainly questioned.  Madeleine's parents seem to be the last to have seen her.  There are questions about the checking on of the children.  It started out being said every 30 min., but that was changed.  And then it wasn't the parents always doing the checking.  Seems one of their friends went and didn't look in on the children, but stood outside the door and listened.  See how some white lies muddy things up?  I hope Madeleine is found. 

[robots]

a PROPERLY trained cadaver dog will alert on the scent of a dead person


this bothers me

And the cadaver dog was brought in by the British, did not have anything to do with PLE.

.

EXACTLY
 

ok...now don't shoot me!!! lol I know it appears I have an answer for everything tonight!!! lol I just feel really strongly about this case. But I have to tell you...at our Cub Scout Camp this summer...they brought in the police sniffer dogs to show us how they track people...and I was not unpressed!!! lol Long story..but one dog did not do well. They can make mistakes!! trust me...lol. And it may have been said, that they could have picked up the scent of death from Kate's clothes because she had been around cadavers at home. Not sure if that was speculation or not, but it could certainly be an explanation.

of course they make mistakes. but the brits have great dogs

and the dog did some strange things......that would indicate that there was more than old fruit in the boot of the car.

[ldstlou]

if we can say that Natalee was moved a couple of times (which i believe she was)
well, then it is certainly within the realm of possibilty that a small child was also moved a couple of times, with the help of one of the tapas 9




this is one of the similiarties

hmmm....I just think it is different robots. I mean...j2k along w/ paulus knew the landscape...knew where to go...and I think most agree it took cooperation with people in ALE to pull it off. They also had alot more time...10 days..before they were really looked at!!! So plenty of opportunity...but mainly...knowledge of the area...and at the same time..the Holloways and Twittys were being lead on a wild goose chase...AWAY...from where they were moving Natalee. It took quite a bit of effort to pull it off in Aruba. I just don't see how the McCanns could possibly do this in a strange place, w/out much access, no knowledge of the area, and with constant media attention.

yes, i agree they knew the landscape. the evil jerks in Aruba

HOWEVER,
the police were not looking closely at the tapas 9 initially. the girl could have been with anyone of the tapas 9. not only that, we do NOT know if any of the tapas 9 were familiar with the area..maybe they were, maybe they were there the previous 10 years, maybe the they have relatives in the area, maybe they grew up around there...

my point is....easy enough to stash 3 year old for one NIGHT and then move the body somewhere else......later ---and in talking about the friends helping with the MOVE

You know Robots, I also read recently, from inteviews of people who saw and heard the McCanns right after they had found Maddie was missing, people not in their group, that their emotions were raw and real, and that the words that they spoke, indicated they believed she had been abducted. Also, I mean in Aruba, we clearly saw in the actions of j2k..that they were hiding something, covering up, lying, changing stories as they went along...every action they took said they were covering up!! I just don't see that in the McCanns actions.

[Anna]

Cadaver dogs are not "sniffer" dogs and are only selected for that most expensive training from among the best of the best.

But I continue to watch ALL parties involved not based on any one thing such as DNA or the cadaver dogs but many things that are not quite right in this tragedy.

The fact that there are full-time professionals now working to create a certain image is very troubling to me.  I can't imagine why all that is necessary.  That is money and effort that could be directed toward finding Madeleine instead of protecting the parents.