Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[ldstlou]

a PROPERLY trained cadaver dog will alert on the scent of a dead person


this bothers me

And the cadaver dog was brought in by the British, did not have anything to do with PLE.

.

EXACTLY
 

ok...now don't shoot me!!! lol I know it appears I have an answer for everything tonight!!! lol I just feel really strongly about this case. But I have to tell you...at our Cub Scout Camp this summer...they brought in the police sniffer dogs to show us how they track people...and I was not unpressed!!! lol Long story..but one dog did not do well. They can make mistakes!! trust me...lol. And it may have been said, that they could have picked up the scent of death from Kate's clothes because she had been around cadavers at home. Not sure if that was speculation or not, but it could certainly be an explanation.

of course they make mistakes. but the brits have great dogs

and the dog did some strange things......that would indicate that there was more than old fruit in the boot of the car.

But how do we really know that? Most of the stories that have been "leaked" to the press have not been valid. This could be another exaggeration. We just don't have any credible sources there..you know? No Greta's following Beth trying to get at the truth...but alot of refros it appears!! lol

[robots]

telling people to go check on someone and then NOT check on them but listen by the door is crazy

leaving doors unlocked is crazy

leaving children unattended is crazy

these people are crazy

crazy people do crazy things


some people call me crazy cause im a germaphobic, i call is being safe

this thing stinks like rotten fruit in a boot

 

[SteveDinMD]

i would like to know what time the tapas -9 got home from the drinking fest
the previous nights....know what i mean

did they get home at 1 AM on the other occasions

i need to know this information

i smell something rotten and it aint the fruit that she left in the trunk 

i give dogs a little more credit than that

You give the dogs "credit," you say?  Why would you do that?  They didn't actually find anything, did they?  Cadaver dogs are simply tools, nothing more and nothing less.  They successfully contribute to an investigation if they lead their handlers to a body, otherwise their behavior has no probative value whatsoever.  It's been widely reported that the dogs in question detected the "scent of death" in one place or another.  How do we know WHAT they detected?  They certainly didn't testify to anything in particular, unless of course Dr. Dolittle was in attendance to act as an interpreter.  For all we know, the dogs could have detected the "scent of cheeseburger."  Dogs can be useful, but lets not attribute to them testimonial powers beyond their capability.  

[robots]

if we can say that Natalee was moved a couple of times (which i believe she was)
well, then it is certainly within the realm of possibilty that a small child was also moved a couple of times, with the help of one of the tapas 9




this is one of the similiarties

hmmm....I just think it is different robots. I mean...j2k along w/ paulus knew the landscape...knew where to go...and I think most agree it took cooperation with people in ALE to pull it off. They also had alot more time...10 days..before they were really looked at!!! So plenty of opportunity...but mainly...knowledge of the area...and at the same time..the Holloways and Twittys were being lead on a wild goose chase...AWAY...from where they were moving Natalee. It took quite a bit of effort to pull it off in Aruba. I just don't see how the McCanns could possibly do this in a strange place, w/out much access, no knowledge of the area, and with constant media attention.

yes, i agree they knew the landscape. the evil jerks in Aruba

HOWEVER,
the police were not looking closely at the tapas 9 initially. the girl could have been with anyone of the tapas 9. not only that, we do NOT know if any of the tapas 9 were familiar with the area..maybe they were, maybe they were there the previous 10 years, maybe the they have relatives in the area, maybe they grew up around there...

my point is....easy enough to stash 3 year old for one NIGHT and then move the body somewhere else......later ---and in talking about the friends helping with the MOVE

You know Robots, I also read recently, from inteviews of people who saw and heard the McCanns right after they had found Maddie was missing, people not in their group, that their emotions were raw and real, and that the words that they spoke, indicated they believed she had been abducted. Also, I mean in Aruba, we clearly saw in the actions of j2k..that they were hiding something, covering up, lying, changing stories as they went along...every action they took said they were covering up!! I just don't see that in the McCanns actions.

yes, that could be telling BUT was it from the SPIN MACHINE people ????


some people believed susan smith too 

 

[ldstlou]

Cadaver dogs are not "sniffer" dogs and are only selected for that most expensive training from among the best of the best.

But I continue to watch ALL parties involved not based on any one thing such as DNA or the cadaver dogs but many things that are not quite right in this tragedy.

The fact that there are full-time professionals now working to create a certain image is very troubling to me.  I can't imagine why all that is necessary.  That is money and effort that could be directed toward finding Madeleine instead of protecting the parents.

I believe the opposite. The McCanns, just like Beth, are dealing with a foreign Country where the normal rules and regulations you expect to be in place are just not there!! If it were my son missing, you bet I would use every source available to me to find him!!! And I just think it is a blessing and a testiment to these parents, all the people and resources that are backing the McCanns. It makes me know...that there are alot of people who believe in these parents like I do and are putting their hard earned money behind the search for Natalee.

[robots]

i would like to know what time the tapas -9 got home from the drinking fest
the previous nights....know what i mean

did they get home at 1 AM on the other occasions

i need to know this information

i smell something rotten and it aint the fruit that she left in the trunk 

i give dogs a little more credit than that

You give the dogs "credit," you say?  Why would you do that?  They didn't actually find anything, did they?  Cadaver dogs are simply tools, nothing more and nothing less.  They successfully contribute to an investigation if they lead their handlers to a body, otherwise their behavior has no probative value whatsoever.  It's been widely reported that the dogs in question detected the "scent of death" in one place or another.  How do we know WHAT they detected?  They certainly didn't testify to anything in particular, unless of course Dr. Dolittle was in attendance to act as an interpreter.  For all we know, the dogs could have detected the "scent of cheeseburger."  Dogs can be useful, but lets not attribute to them testimonial powers beyond their capability.  

i give the dogs credit because they are some of the best in the world

the are not trained to  smell for cheeseburgers... are they perfect ? of course not
do they have an agenda ??

nope 

[robots]

i would like to know what time the tapas -9 got home from the drinking fest
the previous nights....know what i mean

did they get home at 1 AM on the other occasions

i need to know this information

i smell something rotten and it aint the fruit that she left in the trunk 

i give dogs a little more credit than that

You give the dogs "credit," you say?  Why would you do that?  They didn't actually find anything, did they?  Cadaver dogs are simply tools, nothing more and nothing less.  They successfully contribute to an investigation if they lead their handlers to a body, otherwise their behavior has no probative value whatsoever.  It's been widely reported that the dogs in question detected the "scent of death" in one place or another.  How do we know WHAT they detected?  They certainly didn't testify to anything in particular, unless of course Dr. Dolittle was in attendance to act as an interpreter.  For all we know, the dogs could have detected the "scent of cheeseburger."  Dogs can be useful, but lets not attribute to them testimonial powers beyond their capability.  

they are NOT search dogs 

[Anna]

telling people to go check on someone and then NOT check on them but listen by the door is crazy

leaving doors unlocked is crazy

leaving children unattended is crazy

these people are crazy

crazy people do crazy things


some people call me crazy cause im a germaphobic, i call is being safe

this thing stinks like rotten fruit in a boot

 

Yes, and they "changed their story" about how often they checked and only later did it even come out that they didn't check every time and even had someone else check for them.

I see it the same way, Robots.  If they were crazy enough to leave three kids that young alone every night like that, what else could they have done that was equally irresponsible.

And if it is something that supports them, then it is parroted in the news by their family and friends as fact.  If it doesn't then it is false, rumors, exaggerations, etc.  I guess that is one of the benefits of having a world class PR agent running things.

[ldstlou]

if we can say that Natalee was moved a couple of times (which i believe she was)
well, then it is certainly within the realm of possibilty that a small child was also moved a couple of times, with the help of one of the tapas 9




this is one of the similiarties

hmmm....I just think it is different robots. I mean...j2k along w/ paulus knew the landscape...knew where to go...and I think most agree it took cooperation with people in ALE to pull it off. They also had alot more time...10 days..before they were really looked at!!! So plenty of opportunity...but mainly...knowledge of the area...and at the same time..the Holloways and Twittys were being lead on a wild goose chase...AWAY...from where they were moving Natalee. It took quite a bit of effort to pull it off in Aruba. I just don't see how the McCanns could possibly do this in a strange place, w/out much access, no knowledge of the area, and with constant media attention.

yes, i agree they knew the landscape. the evil jerks in Aruba

HOWEVER,
the police were not looking closely at the tapas 9 initially. the girl could have been with anyone of the tapas 9. not only that, we do NOT know if any of the tapas 9 were familiar with the area..maybe they were, maybe they were there the previous 10 years, maybe the they have relatives in the area, maybe they grew up around there...

my point is....easy enough to stash 3 year old for one NIGHT and then move the body somewhere else......later ---and in talking about the friends helping with the MOVE

You know Robots, I also read recently, from inteviews of people who saw and heard the McCanns right after they had found Maddie was missing, people not in their group, that their emotions were raw and real, and that the words that they spoke, indicated they believed she had been abducted. Also, I mean in Aruba, we clearly saw in the actions of j2k..that they were hiding something, covering up, lying, changing stories as they went along...every action they took said they were covering up!! I just don't see that in the McCanns actions.

yes, that could be telling BUT was it from the SPIN MACHINE people ????


some people believed susan smith too 

 

True Robots, but it didn't take long to discern the truth with Susan Smith. Her story crumbled and crumbled fast. I think the McCanns are very credible and their actions and conduct just do not seem to imply anything but desparate parents trying to find their lost daughter.

[robots]

telling people to go check on someone and then NOT check on them but listen by the door is crazy

leaving doors unlocked is crazy

leaving children unattended is crazy

these people are crazy

crazy people do crazy things


some people call me crazy cause im a germaphobic, i call is being safe

this thing stinks like rotten fruit in a boot

 

Yes, and they "changed their story" about how often they checked and only later did it even come out that they didn't check every time and even had someone else check for them.

I see it the same way, Robots.  If they were crazy enough to leave three kids that young alone every night like that, what else could they have done that was equally irresponsible.

And if it is something that supports them, then it is parroted in the news by their family and friends as fact.  If it doesn't then it is false, rumors, exaggerations, etc.  I guess that is one of the benefits of having a world class PR agent running things.

yes, see that bothers me also

the killers in aruba changed their stories

these people change their stories about the times they checked on the kids

why not just tell the truth, the truth is easy to tell

why lie, why why why why ?????

it bothers me

[SteveDinMD]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner.  

[Anna]

I have shown respect for all opinions posted here and would like to ask that the same be done with my own.

For a change.

[Bobo2]

I have shown respect for all opinions posted here and would like to ask that the same be done with my own.

For a change.

[MuffyBee]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

[ldstlou]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner.  

I agree Steve!!! But where to start? I mean how do you even begin to research who could have abducted her? That is the frustrating part for me. There is nothing to dig our teeth into to actually try and find her. I believe there is a strong possibility she is still alive. There HAS to be some info on paedophile rings in the area.

[Anna]

It is very possible that an abductor could have been involved.  Normally those last known with a missing person, actually known to have been in their presence not just outside a door, are looked at first as are family members.

Even Mark Lunsford's elderly mother was given a polygraph test, all of which are voluntary I might add.

Here, we had compliments of the British government a complete Spin Machine on the ground within hours and I think that is what threw off the investigation from the normal route it would have taken.

The parents and their friends should have been looked at first instead of last.  The fact that the first to be considered was the stranger abduction should have netted some information in that direction if there were any to be found especially since it was the first line of pursuit, totally giving the parents a free pass for some four months.

I what whoever is responsible held accountable no matter who that might be.

.

[SteveDinMD]

i would like to know what time the tapas -9 got home from the drinking fest
the previous nights....know what i mean

did they get home at 1 AM on the other occasions

i need to know this information

i smell something rotten and it aint the fruit that she left in the trunk 

i give dogs a little more credit than that

You give the dogs "credit," you say?  Why would you do that?  They didn't actually find anything, did they?  Cadaver dogs are simply tools, nothing more and nothing less.  They successfully contribute to an investigation if they lead their handlers to a body, otherwise their behavior has no probative value whatsoever.  It's been widely reported that the dogs in question detected the "scent of death" in one place or another.  How do we know WHAT they detected?  They certainly didn't testify to anything in particular, unless of course Dr. Dolittle was in attendance to act as an interpreter.  For all we know, the dogs could have detected the "scent of cheeseburger."  Dogs can be useful, but lets not attribute to them testimonial powers beyond their capability.  

i give the dogs credit because they are some of the best in the world

the are not trained to  smell for cheeseburgers... are they perfect ? of course not
do they have an agenda ??

nope 

They will detect cheeseburgers, hot dogs, and squirrels nonetheless -- and react like dogs.  There is absolutely no way to know what they're thinking.  They might not have an agenda, but neither do they have an intellect.  That's why people handle the dogs, and not the other way around.  

[MuffyBee]

Steve, you said "Why should this possibility be overlooked",   which I take to mean someone other than the McCann's could be responsible for Madeleine's disappearance.  To me that hasn't been overlooked and my post explains why.  If you go back and read the threads and the stories, the  idea the McCann's were under suspicion didn't come up until much later, and after there were others being looked at.

[ldstlou]

It is very possible that an abductor could have been involved.  Normally those last known with a missing person, actually known to have been in their presence not just outside a door, are looked at first as are family members.

Even Mark Lunsford's elderly mother was given a polygraph test, all of which are voluntary I might add.

Here, we had compliments of the British government a complete Spin Machine on the ground within hours and I think that is what threw off the investigation from the normal route it would have taken.

The parents and their friends should have been looked at first instead of last.  The fact that the first to be considered was the stranger abduction should have netted some information in that direction if there were any to be found especially since it was the first line of pursuit, totally giving the parents a free pass for some four months.

I what whoever is responsible held accountable no matter who that might be.

.

Anna...not an attack!!! But where is the evidence of the spin? Could it just be that people actually believed the McCanns and truely thought Maddie were abducted?

[Anna]

And Interpol is certainly aware of this missing child.  That we do know for a fact since they were working on the latest sighting photo.

I believe Interpol would be the most likely organization to have information on international pedophile rings operating in the area as well as known offenders and other transnationals.

Since that course has thus far netted nothing, where else to look but closer to home.