Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Anna]

We do know for a fact that one of the top PR people in the EU has quit his regular job and is working on this full time.  The reports of others such as the one, I think Gerry's brother, is now full time working on raising funds, etc.

Every report for a while was describing their PAID professional PR agents.

That's what I call spin.  Those quoted in the paper as believing the McCanns are often relatives, friends and neighbors.  And their connections in Britain have been rather amazing as well.

[ldstlou]

i would like to know what time the tapas -9 got home from the drinking fest
the previous nights....know what i mean

did they get home at 1 AM on the other occasions

i need to know this information

i smell something rotten and it aint the fruit that she left in the trunk 

i give dogs a little more credit than that

You give the dogs "credit," you say?  Why would you do that?  They didn't actually find anything, did they?  Cadaver dogs are simply tools, nothing more and nothing less.  They successfully contribute to an investigation if they lead their handlers to a body, otherwise their behavior has no probative value whatsoever.  It's been widely reported that the dogs in question detected the "scent of death" in one place or another.  How do we know WHAT they detected?  They certainly didn't testify to anything in particular, unless of course Dr. Dolittle was in attendance to act as an interpreter.  For all we know, the dogs could have detected the "scent of cheeseburger."  Dogs can be useful, but lets not attribute to them testimonial powers beyond their capability.  

i give the dogs credit because they are some of the best in the world

the are not trained to  smell for cheeseburgers... are they perfect ? of course not
do they have an agenda ??

nope 

They will detect cheeseburgers, hot dogs, and squirrels nonetheless -- and react like dogs.  There is absolutely no way to know what they're thinking.  They might not have an agenda, but neither do they have an intellect.  That's why people handle the dogs, and not the other way around.  

And to add to this...when the dogs came to our camp...and they were trained to find people..is that much different than the cadaver dogs? These dogs were trained in Russia and were supposed to be the best in the world by the way!!! BIG money spent on these dogs by our police force!! Anyhoo..when the one dog could not pick up the scent, and the item he was looking for was within visual range...but we were told the dogs were taught to use their noses and not their eyes, the other dog handler later said...the dog is only as good as the handler!!! They read the handler and the handler directs the dog I was told. So there could be agenda...and I am not at all saying there was one in this case, and there could be error.

[SteveDinMD]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

[robots]

i would like to know what time the tapas -9 got home from the drinking fest
the previous nights....know what i mean

did they get home at 1 AM on the other occasions

i need to know this information

i smell something rotten and it aint the fruit that she left in the trunk 

i give dogs a little more credit than that

You give the dogs "credit," you say?  Why would you do that?  They didn't actually find anything, did they?  Cadaver dogs are simply tools, nothing more and nothing less.  They successfully contribute to an investigation if they lead their handlers to a body, otherwise their behavior has no probative value whatsoever.  It's been widely reported that the dogs in question detected the "scent of death" in one place or another.  How do we know WHAT they detected?  They certainly didn't testify to anything in particular, unless of course Dr. Dolittle was in attendance to act as an interpreter.  For all we know, the dogs could have detected the "scent of cheeseburger."  Dogs can be useful, but lets not attribute to them testimonial powers beyond their capability.  

i give the dogs credit because they are some of the best in the world

the are not trained to  smell for cheeseburgers... are they perfect ? of course not
do they have an agenda ??

nope 

They will detect cheeseburgers, hot dogs, and squirrels nonetheless -- and react like dogs.  There is absolutely no way to know what they're thinking.  They might not have an agenda, but neither do they have an intellect.  That's why people handle the dogs, and not the other way around.  

i like dogs better than i like most people 



there are several different types of dogs police use, as im sure you are aware.

some are trained to NOT detect cheeseburgers.


if we all agreed on everything, we could save a lot of aggravation by just turning off our computers and going to bed..

show me the evidence of an abduction

 

[robots]

i would like to know what time the tapas -9 got home from the drinking fest
the previous nights....know what i mean

did they get home at 1 AM on the other occasions

i need to know this information

i smell something rotten and it aint the fruit that she left in the trunk 

i give dogs a little more credit than that

You give the dogs "credit," you say?  Why would you do that?  They didn't actually find anything, did they?  Cadaver dogs are simply tools, nothing more and nothing less.  They successfully contribute to an investigation if they lead their handlers to a body, otherwise their behavior has no probative value whatsoever.  It's been widely reported that the dogs in question detected the "scent of death" in one place or another.  How do we know WHAT they detected?  They certainly didn't testify to anything in particular, unless of course Dr. Dolittle was in attendance to act as an interpreter.  For all we know, the dogs could have detected the "scent of cheeseburger."  Dogs can be useful, but lets not attribute to them testimonial powers beyond their capability.  

i give the dogs credit because they are some of the best in the world

the are not trained to  smell for cheeseburgers... are they perfect ? of course not
do they have an agenda ??

nope 

They will detect cheeseburgers, hot dogs, and squirrels nonetheless -- and react like dogs.  There is absolutely no way to know what they're thinking.  They might not have an agenda, but neither do they have an intellect.  That's why people handle the dogs, and not the other way around.  

And to add to this...when the dogs came to our camp...and they were trained to find people..is that much different than the cadaver dogs? These dogs were trained in Russia and were supposed to be the best in the world by the way!!! BIG money spent on these dogs by our police force!! Anyhoo..when the one dog could not pick up the scent, and the item he was looking for was within visual range...but we were told the dogs were taught to use their noses and not their eyes, the other dog handler later said...the dog is only as good as the handler!!! They read the handler and the handler directs the dog I was told. So there could be agenda...and I am not at all saying there was one in this case, and there could be error.

cad dogs and search dogs are very different

and i agree with you, they are not perfect by any means


but they dont lie, they make mistakes but they dont lie

some people lie when they say things like "we checked on them every 15 minutes or every half hour"

they when it comes out... OOPS, we lied


 

[ldstlou]

And Anna, I hope you don't feel attacked at all, at least I speak for myself!!
I think people interpret information and situations according to their own experiences. I could not believe...the juror on the Spector case who did not vote to convict!!! It just blew me away he had any doubts!! But I watched the guy in his interviews after and he truely believed that Lana may have committed suicide. Didn't make sense according to my experiences, but it did to him, and he stood by his convictions in that jury room for a long time and I have nothing but respect for the guy for that. He had a friend who had committed suicide, and it had been investigated because it was not clear at first how his friend had died. I am sure that shaped his view of the case immensly. I respect your opinion that you believe it is very possible the McCanns may have been involved, same with you Robots, it just doesn't fit for me. And I think we are just debating our opinions here, and I always respect your opinions Anna.

[ldstlou]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

I agree Steve, and it is so alarming and disturbing to me!!! I think the PLE have failed the McCanns, but more importantly, have failed little Maddie.

[robots]

And Anna, I hope you don't feel attacked at all, at least I speak for myself!!
I think people interpret information and situations according to their own experiences. I could not believe...the juror on the Spector case who did not vote to convict!!! It just blew me away he had any doubts!! But I watched the guy in his interviews after and he truely believed that Lana may have committed suicide. Didn't make sense according to my experiences, but it did to him, and he stood by his convictions in that jury room for a long time and I have nothing but respect for the guy for that. He had a friend who had committed suicide, and it had been investigated because it was not clear at first how his friend had died. I am sure that shaped his view of the case immensly. I respect your opinion that you believe it is very possible the McCanns may have been involved, same with you Robots, it just doesn't fit for me. And I think we are just debating our opinions here, and I always respect your opinions Anna.

 

[Anna]

Again, cadaver dogs are very different than "sniffers" and are trained to react to only one thing.  These were being handled by the British, not PLE, so if any fault is to be found with the dogs, it lies with the British.

Their training is so extensive and expensive is why the PLE didn't have any.  They are extremely rare and I would am not quick to dismiss their findings.  They not only find cadavers but where they have been and while sniffers can be easily thrown off since they are looking for any number of things, these are like specialists trained to only one thing.

Be that as it may, no the McCanns were not the first but the last to be investigated and perhaps that was the grave error PLE made that may well result in this never being solved.  PLE has little to gain by blaming the parents as it is a very unpopular position to take as is amply demonstrated right on this thread.

If they would say some bushy haired stranger took Madeleine, they would suddenly become the media darlings of the British press as well.

PLE is working with the British authorities and Interpol.  This is not Aruba by any stoke of the imagination.

[ldstlou]

And Anna, I hope you don't feel attacked at all, at least I speak for myself!!
I think people interpret information and situations according to their own experiences. I could not believe...the juror on the Spector case who did not vote to convict!!! It just blew me away he had any doubts!! But I watched the guy in his interviews after and he truely believed that Lana may have committed suicide. Didn't make sense according to my experiences, but it did to him, and he stood by his convictions in that jury room for a long time and I have nothing but respect for the guy for that. He had a friend who had committed suicide, and it had been investigated because it was not clear at first how his friend had died. I am sure that shaped his view of the case immensly. I respect your opinion that you believe it is very possible the McCanns may have been involved, same with you Robots, it just doesn't fit for me. And I think we are just debating our opinions here, and I always respect your opinions Anna.

 

Back atcha Robots!!!

[robots]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

I agree Steve, and it is so alarming and disturbing to me!!! I think the PLE have failed the McCanns, but more importantly, have failed little Maddie.

i think the parents failed Maddie

[ldstlou]

I gotta tell ya...I know NOTHING about cadaver dogs!!!

[robots]

they are formal suspects, and they will remain for a long time SUSPECT in my mind

different dogs do different jobs


its like the term "Builder"

some build houses
some build bridges
some build doghouses
some build skycrapers

they are the same and yet very different

cad dogs DONT sniff for HOTDOGS

 

[robots]

I gotta tell ya...I know NOTHING about cadaver dogs!!!

you will be an expert on them soon enough 

[Anna]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

We saw just yesterday the PLE engaging Interpol in tracking down an olive farmer's daughter from a tourist photo that was little more than a blur.

This demonstrates to me that PLE is far from only investigating the McCanns, just looking for Madeleine's corpse or any of the other allegations made about them in this regard.

They are obviously actively looking and even in surrounding countries at that.

This is hardly only investigating the McCanns and PLE just proved that.

[ldstlou]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

I agree Steve, and it is so alarming and disturbing to me!!! I think the PLE have failed the McCanns, but more importantly, have failed little Maddie.

i think the parents failed Maddie

ok Robots...you are NOT going to like this..BUT DON'T SHOOT!!! lol

I think about them being away from the apartment. I remember reading them say that to them it was like being in their own back yard at home while the kids were in bed. I know, I know...DON'T SHOOT!!!
But I started to think about this...and you know...I go to my brother's new house all the time. It is in a beautiful subdivision, on a gold course, all families around him...neighbors come over all the time. We play with the kids all night...and then usually my son will curl up on the couch and sleep while the parents drink a beer and play cards and such in the back yard. And I started thinking ...you know...it would be SO EASY!!! for someone to know our weekend habits and slip in the front door...which is alway unlocked...in come in through the garage,,,which is always open..and take my baby!! It could have happened 10...20 times!!! So I guess I can understand being lulled into that false sense of security. Do we check on the kids while we are out back in the 1/2 acre yard...yes!! Could 20-30 minutes go by before someone went it to check..YES!!! Could we have lost track of time and thought...it was 10:15 last time I checked and it was really 10:30!!! YES!!! You know, I think I am being a responsible adult. We have a few beers after the kids are in bed...play cards til 2 in the morning...I ALWAYS!!! stay over and NEVER drive home..not even after a couple of beers..I NEVER do!! But yet...know that I know Maddie's story...I know...that there have been so many times...that I have left my baby exposed to danger...and it never dawned on me until Maddie's abduction...that I was doing anything wrong. Does that make sense?

[Anna]

they are formal suspects, and they will remain for a long time SUSPECT in my mind

different dogs do different jobs


its like the term "Builder"

some build houses
some build bridges
some build doghouses
some build skycrapers

they are the same and yet very different

cad dogs DONT sniff for HOTDOGS

 

Don't sniff no cheeseburgers, either.  LOL!  And each one has their own record of percentage of hits, etc. that goes with them to court as well.  Approximate cost to train one is $75-100,000.  They better be right for that!  But consider the cost of what has to be used to train them and the reason is a bit clearer.  While some may donate their body to science, few are willing to do so to train dogs.

[Puzzler]

Several nights ago, on Fox News, I heard an interview with a British man who was retired from Scotland Yard.  He was talking about the dogs that were taken from England to Portugal to perform searches with respect to Madeleine.  He said that these dogs are the best in the "WORLD"! They're very highly trained and the specific dogs that were taken to Portugal (said their names, but don't remember them now) were the best of the best in the world, with very high success records.  There was one that excelled in blood scent and one that excelled in cadaver scent.  Several areas of blood were found that were not able to be seen by the naked eye and there was cadaver scent hits in several places: cabinet, closet, clothes.  Also the trail of scent went from the apartment the McCann's were staying in to an area near the church. 

 

[SteveDinMD]

Again, cadaver dogs are very different than "sniffers" and are trained to react to only one thing.  These were being handled by the British, not PLE, so if any fault is to be found with the dogs, it lies with the British.

Their training is so extensive and expensive is why the PLE didn't have any.  They are extremely rare and I would am not quick to dismiss their findings.  They not only find cadavers but where they have been and while sniffers can be easily thrown off since they are looking for any number of things, these are like specialists trained to only one thing.

Be that as it may, no the McCanns were not the first but the last to be investigated and perhaps that was the grave error PLE made that may well result in this never being solved.  PLE has little to gain by blaming the parents as it is a very unpopular position to take as is amply demonstrated right on this thread.

If they would say some bushy haired stranger took Madeleine, they would suddenly become the media darlings of the British press as well.

PLE is working with the British authorities and Interpol.  This is not Aruba by any stoke of the imagination.

Anna:  

Regardless of whatever kind of training they've been subjected to, they're just dogs, and I refuse to substitute a dog's "judgement" for my own.  Beyond this, dogs can't "say" anything.  They can only discover a cadaver or fail to discover one.  It's a binary condition:  either they uncover evidence or they don't.  There is no middle ground.  In this case, they failed to uncover any evidence.  They've contributed nothing to the case so far.  

[Anna]

And Anna, I hope you don't feel attacked at all, at least I speak for myself!!
I think people interpret information and situations according to their own experiences. I could not believe...the juror on the Spector case who did not vote to convict!!! It just blew me away he had any doubts!! But I watched the guy in his interviews after and he truely believed that Lana may have committed suicide. Didn't make sense according to my experiences, but it did to him, and he stood by his convictions in that jury room for a long time and I have nothing but respect for the guy for that. He had a friend who had committed suicide, and it had been investigated because it was not clear at first how his friend had died. I am sure that shaped his view of the case immensly. I respect your opinion that you believe it is very possible the McCanns may have been involved, same with you Robots, it just doesn't fit for me. And I think we are just debating our opinions here, and I always respect your opinions Anna.

 

Back atcha Robots!!!

We're good, ldstlou.    But you know I will stand my ground no matter what and that is because I believe it only fair to this child that her parents be investigated as they should have been from that first day.

It's about Madeleine, not her parents but one would never know that from the media coverage which is, oddly, more about Kate & Gerry.


.