Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[ldstlou]

Several nights ago, on Fox News, I heard an interview with a British man who was retired from Scotland Yard.  He was talking about the dogs that were taken from England to Portugal to perform searches with respect to Madeleine.  He said that these dogs are the best in the "WORLD"! They're very highly trained and the specific dogs that were taken to Portugal (said their names, but don't remember them now) were the best of the best in the world, with very high success records.  There was one that excelled in blood scent and one that excelled in cadaver scent.  Several areas of blood were found that were not able to be seen by the naked eye and there was cadaver scent hits in several places: cabinet, closet, clothes.  Also the trail of scent went from the apartment the McCann's were staying in to an area near the church. 

 

HHHMMMM..still not real clear as to the source of the leak about all the hits...and not sure they were trust worthy. We really don't know for sure where they found hits. But I do know there was a judge here in the US that found the dogs to be unreliable enough that he threw the evedince out on a case. Just makes me wonder. Going to have to do some research tonight it looks like.

[ldstlou]

And Anna, I hope you don't feel attacked at all, at least I speak for myself!!
I think people interpret information and situations according to their own experiences. I could not believe...the juror on the Spector case who did not vote to convict!!! It just blew me away he had any doubts!! But I watched the guy in his interviews after and he truely believed that Lana may have committed suicide. Didn't make sense according to my experiences, but it did to him, and he stood by his convictions in that jury room for a long time and I have nothing but respect for the guy for that. He had a friend who had committed suicide, and it had been investigated because it was not clear at first how his friend had died. I am sure that shaped his view of the case immensly. I respect your opinion that you believe it is very possible the McCanns may have been involved, same with you Robots, it just doesn't fit for me. And I think we are just debating our opinions here, and I always respect your opinions Anna.

 

Back atcha Robots!!!

We're good, ldstlou.    But you know I will stand my ground no matter what and that is because I believe it only fair to this child that her parents be investigated as they should have been from that first day.

It's about Madeleine, not her parents but one would never know that from the media coverage which is, oddly, more about Kate & Gerry.


.

I agree Anna, they should be investigated and I know you well enough to know you will ALWAYS!!! stand your ground!! It is one of the reasons you are so respected here. Wouldn't expect anything less from you!!

[robots]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

I agree Steve, and it is so alarming and disturbing to me!!! I think the PLE have failed the McCanns, but more importantly, have failed little Maddie.

i think the parents failed Maddie

ok Robots...you are NOT going to like this..BUT DON'T SHOOT!!! lol

I think about them being away from the apartment. I remember reading them say that to them it was like being in their own back yard at home while the kids were in bed. I know, I know...DON'T SHOOT!!!
But I started to think about this...and you know...I go to my brother's new house all the time. It is in a beautiful subdivision, on a gold course, all families around him...neighbors come over all the time. We play with the kids all night...and then usually my son will curl up on the couch and sleep while the parents drink a beer and play cards and such in the back yard. And I started thinking ...you know...it would be SO EASY!!! for someone to know our weekend habits and slip in the front door...which is alway unlocked...in come in through the garage,,,which is always open..and take my baby!! It could have happened 10...20 times!!! So I guess I can understand being lulled into that false sense of security. Do we check on the kids while we are out back in the 1/2 acre yard...yes!! Could 20-30 minutes go by before someone went it to check..YES!!! Could we have lost track of time and thought...it was 10:15 last time I checked and it was really 10:30!!! YES!!! You know, I think I am being a responsible adult. We have a few beers after the kids are in bed...play cards til 2 in the morning...I ALWAYS!!! stay over and NEVER drive home..not even after a couple of beers..I NEVER do!! But yet...know that I know Maddie's story...I know...that there have been so many times...that I have left my baby exposed to danger...and it never dawned on me until Maddie's abduction...that I was doing anything wrong. Does that make sense?

i wont shoot BUT its

apples and oranges,

your brothers house with friends and neighbors

VERSUS - foreign country and total strangers all AROUND you.


in your situation, yes something could happen but less likely
i suggest you lock the front door and garage and lessen the chances even more

never play poker with a robots, robots win every time


wannnnnnna play ???

[SteveDinMD]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

We saw just yesterday the PLE engaging Interpol in tracking down an olive farmer's daughter from a tourist photo that was little more than a blur.

This demonstrates to me that PLE is far from only investigating the McCanns, just looking for Madeleine's corpse or any of the other allegations made about them in this regard.

They are obviously actively looking and even in surrounding countries at that.

This is hardly only investigating the McCanns and PLE just proved that.

According to the reports I've read, the Moroccan authorities tracked down the little girl in question on their own initiative.  The Portugese police were uninvolved.  

[Anna]

Again, cadaver dogs are very different than "sniffers" and are trained to react to only one thing.  These were being handled by the British, not PLE, so if any fault is to be found with the dogs, it lies with the British.

Their training is so extensive and expensive is why the PLE didn't have any.  They are extremely rare and I would am not quick to dismiss their findings.  They not only find cadavers but where they have been and while sniffers can be easily thrown off since they are looking for any number of things, these are like specialists trained to only one thing.

Be that as it may, no the McCanns were not the first but the last to be investigated and perhaps that was the grave error PLE made that may well result in this never being solved.  PLE has little to gain by blaming the parents as it is a very unpopular position to take as is amply demonstrated right on this thread.

If they would say some bushy haired stranger took Madeleine, they would suddenly become the media darlings of the British press as well.

PLE is working with the British authorities and Interpol.  This is not Aruba by any stoke of the imagination.

Anna:  

Regardless of whatever kind of training they've been subjected to, they're just dogs, and I refuse to substitute a dog's "judgement" for my own.  Beyond this, dogs can't "say" anything.  They can only discover a cadaver or fail to discover one.  It's a binary condition:  either they uncover evidence or they don't.  There is no middle ground.  In this case, they failed to uncover any evidence.  They've contributed nothing to the case so far.  

No, the dogs can tell where a corpse has been if it has been there for any length of time.  Case in point was a digging a few years back in my area, can't recall the name right now but was widely covered in the media.  The dogs kept getting hits with no cadavers leading police to think the man was a serial killer when it turned out it was the same corpse he kept moving from location to location.

That was my first time to ever eyewitness them working.  These were out of Louisiana where some of the best in this country are trained.

But don't blame PLE for the dogs since they came from Britain and were handled by the British.  Yes, they have about a ten percent error rate.

Not saying they are infallible.  Also not basing my opinion on the dogs, either.

.

.

[robots]

if the mother had gone missing that night

who would have been the MAIN suspect ??

and why is that ??


same thing applies here.

last one to be seen with her

case closed, well not closed but certainly closed as to why the parents needed to be seriously investigated   

[klaasend]

Pretty interresting video someone from the Mirror forum put together.  I don't know what to believe in this case but this video in interresting never the less:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2296203136219895848&hl=en-GB

[Anna]

Then there is the possibility that they instructed this person to only listen at the door so as not to wake the children and Madeleine was removed from the apartment before they came to dinner. 

We have conflicting reports on when Madeleine was last seen.  Some say 2 in the afternoon and others have reported it as late as 6:30.

And the McCanns appeared at dinner at 8:55 p.m.  Two and a half hours.

.

Then there is the very real possibility that Madeline was abducted by someone totally unrelated to the McCanns and their holiday group.  Why should this possibility be overlooked?  Many people seem predisposed to fit the crime to whatever "suspects" are readily at hand.  I prefer to follow the evidence to where it logically leads rather than play pin-the-crime-on-the-foreigner. 

Yes, that is a very real possibility.  I agree with you there Steve.  But I don't think the possibility is being overlooked.  No one even seemed to consider the parents at all at the start.  They weren't extensively interviewed, their apartment wasn't secured, their car wasn't impounded etc.  Instead, Murat was looked at, as were pedophiles.  Sightings were checked in other countries.  There was a sighting that resulted in a bottle being checked for DNA that a child resembling Madeleine was drinking from.  Then there was just the girl in the photograph someone thought was Madeleine.  So, I don't really think the McCann's were actually zeroed in on till later, and the sightings have been checked.  Murat hasn't been cleared as a suspect and neither have the McCann's.  I don't know where else the police may be looking or what leads they are following.  I just hope they find Madeleine.

The police have already announced that their investigation now only extends to looking for Madeline's remains in order to shore up their case against the McCanns.  There have also been reports attributed to official sources that the police suspected the parents from the beginning, and early made them the focus of the investigation.  Early in the case, reported independent double sightings of Madeline in Marrakech were summarily dismissed by authorities.  Then there are the procedural lapses you point out and many others besides.  The police, in my opinion, have done nothing, and have never demonstrated the least inclination to vary from that course.  I suspect they didn't want to solve the case because the answer they were likely to get was unwelcome.  

We saw just yesterday the PLE engaging Interpol in tracking down an olive farmer's daughter from a tourist photo that was little more than a blur.

This demonstrates to me that PLE is far from only investigating the McCanns, just looking for Madeleine's corpse or any of the other allegations made about them in this regard.

They are obviously actively looking and even in surrounding countries at that.

This is hardly only investigating the McCanns and PLE just proved that.

According to the reports I've read, the Moroccan authorities tracked down the little girl in question on their own initiative.  The Portugese police were uninvolved.  

I read the PLE submitted the photo to Interpol.  They were the ones to whom it was sent and so seem to have moved rather vigorously to get coverage of it.

That is far from only focusing on the McCanns.

[ldstlou]

i wont shoot BUT its

apples and oranges,

your brothers house with friends and neighbors

VERSUS - foreign country and total strangers all AROUND you.


in your situation, yes something could happen but less likely
i suggest you lock the front door and garage and lessen the chances even more

never play poker with a robots, robots win every time


wannnnnnna play ???

You are a hoot Robots!!! we play for dimes, nickles and quarters and I have a jar full of change that says I can hang w/ the big dogs at poker!! lol
And we DO lock the front door now as well as the garage...but not before this happened. I just understand that false sense of security parents can get lulled into. Trust me..I am becoming paranoid NOW!! which is a good thing!!
And my brother lives on a golf course not a gold course...lol wish it were a gold course!!! lol that f and d are awfully close together on the keyboard!!

But the thing that hit me most...is that if it WERE an abduction, I don't know that Maddie would not have been taken later in the night w/ the parents asleep. If these creeps set their eyes on a child, history shows...they will do whatever it takes to get the child. Gives me chills, and I agree, the parents made it easier if it were an abduction...but I am not sure it would not have happened had they not left her alone.

[Anna]

if the mother had gone missing that night

who would have been the MAIN suspect ??

and why is that ??


same thing applies here.

last one to be seen with her

case closed, well not closed but certainly closed as to why the parents needed to be seriously investigated  

Exactly!  

No one gets a free ride. 

Why not investigate them?

.

[SteveDinMD]

Pretty interresting video someone from the Mirror forum put together.  I don't know what to believe in this case but this video in interresting never the less:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2296203136219895848&hl=en-GB

There is a very high disinformation content to that video. 

[robots]

i wont shoot BUT its

apples and oranges,

your brothers house with friends and neighbors

VERSUS - foreign country and total strangers all AROUND you.


in your situation, yes something could happen but less likely
i suggest you lock the front door and garage and lessen the chances even more

never play poker with a robots, robots win every time


wannnnnnna play ???

You are a hoot Robots!!! we play for dimes, nickles and quarters and I have a jar full of change that says I can hang w/ the big dogs at poker!! lol
And we DO lock the front door now as well as the garage...but not before this happened. I just understand that false sense of security parents can get lulled into. Trust me..I am becoming paranoid NOW!! which is a good thing!!
And my brother lives on a golf course not a gold course...lol wish it were a gold course!!! lol that f and d are awfully close together on the keyboard!!

But the thing that hit me most...is that if it WERE an abduction, I don't know that Maddie would not have been taken later in the night w/ the parents asleep. If these creeps set their eyes on a child, history shows...they will do whatever it takes to get the child. Gives me chills, and I agree, the parents made it easier if it were an abduction...but I am not sure it would not have happened had they not left her alone.

 

[ldstlou]

if the mother had gone missing that night

who would have been the MAIN suspect ??

and why is that ??


same thing applies here.

last one to be seen with her

case closed, well not closed but certainly closed as to why the parents needed to be seriously investigated  

Exactly!  

No one gets a free ride. 

Why not investigate them?

.

I agree...investigate them YES..smear campaign...NO!!
And I just think it has turned into a witch hunt and not an investigation. A judge found there is not enough evidence to interview them again, let alone charge them, so it just seems to me, that the parents WERE investigated, but also, there were alot of false leaks coming out of the PLE meant to discredit the family, why?

[Anna]

Children two and three can easily choke, eat poisonous substances, get electrocuted, anything can happen at that vulnerable age where they can walk but don't yet know many dangers. 

But I realize we are going to have to agree to disagree on this as opinions are already formed.

.

[robots]

if the mother had gone missing that night

who would have been the MAIN suspect ??

and why is that ??


same thing applies here.

last one to be seen with her

case closed, well not closed but certainly closed as to why the parents needed to be seriously investigated  

Exactly!  

No one gets a free ride. 

Why not investigate them?

.

yep 
i like the video.
thanks klass  -- thank you very much 

[robots]

if the mother had gone missing that night

who would have been the MAIN suspect ??

and why is that ??


same thing applies here.

last one to be seen with her

case closed, well not closed but certainly closed as to why the parents needed to be seriously investigated  

Exactly!  

No one gets a free ride. 

Why not investigate them?

.

I agree...investigate them YES..smear campaign...NO!!
And I just think it has turned into a witch hunt and not an investigation. A judge found there is not enough evidence to interview them again, let alone charge them, so it just seems to me, that the parents WERE investigated, but also, there were alot of false leaks coming out of the PLE meant to discredit the family, why?

naww.. no witch hunt over here from me...but they didnt answer alot of questions
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...that sounds familiar ???  ,,,kind of like aruba
waiting for evidence to come back from labs

[ldstlou]

Children two and three can easily choke, eat poisonous substances, get electrocuted, anything can happen at that vulnerable age where they can walk but don't yet know many dangers. 

But I realize we are going to have to agree to disagree on this as opinions are already formed.

.

Well my dear Monkeys...it has been a pleasure both agreeing and disagreeing with you tonight, as always.
Night all and talk to you soon.

[Puzzler]

Thank you, Klaas.  The video spells out most of the questions in my mind.

[robots]

stop jogging and start looking is what i have been saying

not much searching by the parents,,

natalee's dad looking in garbage dumps, these clowns jogging all the time 

[robots]

Thank you, Klaas.  The video spells out most of the questions in my mind.

me too

nice job