Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Anna]

<snipped>


I concede that I do not know if the McCanns were involved in the disappearance of their daughter following an unfortunate incident with unintended consequences but ... I do not believe they are not above suspicion.  As they were the last persons in the company of their daughter prior to the alleged abduction ... I believe they should be the primary suspects ... the exact reason I believe that Joran, Deepak and Satish should be the primary suspects in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Janet

Thank you Muffybee

I submitted the above post to the this forum yesterday.  I wanted Monkeys to understand my position ... a position which seems to reflect yours.

Right now I am somewhat discouraged in regards to future postings but ... give me a minute I may change my mind.  

Janet

Well, I have had my posts called incorrect, judgmental (my opinion should be judgmental, that's what an opinion is) ridiculous and illogical.

The degree of emotionality is amazing in the coverage of this tragedy.  The most logical of things such as investigating the ones last known to have been with Madeleine are for some met with tremendous resistance and outrage and even taking their investigation almost personally.

To me this demonstrates that this is a result of the professional spin and manipulation of the emotions by the PR personnel the McCanns employ full time.

Rob, I agree with all the things you have stated above but since the McCanns were not the first to be investigated, I don't think that means they get a free pass.

If this is Aruba then the McCanns are J2K because they are the ones last with the missing and also the ones saying no body no case.

One of the worst examples of taking unsubstantiated as fact is the photo of the poor woman with the black eyes where it is claimed the police did this.  There is no proof that the police did this at all.  To the contrary, no one was charged and it is highly unlikely a cop would do such a stupid highly visible assault.  I have expressed that as any ogre worth his salt could extract that confession without leaving a mark let alone on the face.  I don't find that accusation credible.

But it is clear that any suggestion that the parents are not above reproach is met with such an emotional response that it is not worth the reaction to post in this thread.

And I believed Susan Smith, too.  Certain reactions by the McCanns are highly suspicious, they have lied about several things and demonstrated absolutely horrific judgment as parents.  Yet they should not even be investigated in this. 

I don't get it and why posts calling for an investigation of all who had motive, opportunity and means is such a horrific thing to do.  I think this child deserves justice no matter who is responsible.  Evidently, some do not share that sentiment and seem to take everything posted about the McCanns personally. 

I will say that this does reflect the absolutely splendid job their PR firm is doing.  Kate McCann is not Beth Twitty by any stretch of the imagination.  PLE is working with not only the British and Interpol but any number of law enforcement agencies.

This is just too strange for me!  Not worth the nastiness and ill will.

[bleachedblack]

Royal tip in search for Maddie

Article from: The Daily Telegraph....Charles Miranda....October 01, 2007 09:54am

AN anonymous tip-off to the Prince of Wales has sent UK police on an urgent hunt for a new suspect in the Madeleine McCann case.

The email - sent via Prince Charles' website - claimed a disgruntled former employee of the Portuguese resort where the toddler went missing, could be behind her disappearance.

It claimed Madeleine was abducted from the Praia da Luz apartment in revenge against the complex's owners.

It is understood police have confirmed the woman named in the email did work at the resort when Madeleine was last seen 150 days ago.

Royal aides have passed the email on to Scotland Yard, which is now trying to trace the author.

A police source told London newspaper The News of the World: "There have been hundreds of Madeleine theories, sightings and tips sent into UK cops from members of the public. But this one is different.

"It's incredibly detailed and so far, from the inquiries being made in Portugal, it appears to be based on factual events."

Police believe that the tipster entrusted the information to Prince Charles because he and wife Camilla came out in support of Maddie's parents Kate and Gerry.

In a statement released from Clarence House in May, the royal couple said they had been following the case "closely and with deep concern" and "fervently hoped" Madeleine would be reunited with her family.

The development came as another resort worker said they had seen a British tourist "hiding" in the stairwell just metres from the McCann apartment on the night Madeleine vanished.

"It was about 6pm on the day the little girl went missing. I saw this Englishman standing under the stairwell," the worker told the London Sunday Mirror.

"He was round-faced and stocky, wearing light clothes and positioned so that he was monitoring the (area). He was hiding and watching."

The worker was interviewed by police early in the investigation and has been reinterviewed.

Meanwhile a team of forensic scientists have reportedly made independent tests on a hire car rented in Portugal by the McCanns.

"The experts basically stripped the vehicle and took it apart so they could take as many samples as possible," an unnamed source said.

.

Makes me think of the recent photo in Morocco of the little girl resembling Madeleine. Can authorities really have the luxury of hearing about a sighting/tip and say they are not going to investigate that one?......I think not. If such an abduction took place by an employee who was fired she would likely not want to hurt the child victim but to damage the reputation of the resort. Why then not pass the child off to someone else? Just thinking out loud.....

[Bobo2]

Well, I have had my posts called incorrect, judgmental (my opinion should be judgmental, that's what an opinion is) ridiculous and illogical. don't think that means they get a free pass.

Anna, I ignored this the first time you brought up a statement I made 14 pages ago, but since you brought it up again allow me to clarify.

I did not call you or your post incorrect and judgmental.  I made reference to as assumption some were drawing regarding a statement from the McCanns.  Apparently you agreed with that assumption and took offense.  I also made it clear that this was my opinion.  I am not going to parse words with you.   

You seem to feel you are the victim of personal attacks where there are none.  May I point out you referred to a viewpoint of mine as "peculiar" and I did not take offense.  If you choose to be offended that is your choice, but believe me life is easier with a thick skin.

[Rob]

[quote Anna]
Rob, I agree with all the things you have stated above but since the McCanns were not the first to be investigated, I don't think that means they get a free pass.
[/quote]

I think you know I would never imply that (not that you did). They should be investigated... just as Robert Murat should still be investigated and any other person of interest. I do note that Murat has still not been cleared and this is round number 2 and almost two weeks later after he stated he expected to be cleared.

After everything that has happened and the lack of progress, any and all avenues needs to be examined and re-examined. Personally, I do not know if the McCanns are involved.

I only care that if Madeleine is indeed alive she is found one way or the other. I do not care if the road leads to Rome or anywhere else... just that she is found. I care about a little girl that could be alive and very frightened.

If the McCanns are involved they will have to answer to the charges.

[Kiwi]

Since most cases focus on the last persons to be seen with those missing, has anyone seen the last known picture or date of that picture? It would be interesting to try to fill in a time line from the picture to the parents call to the police. There seems to be vacation pictures floating around.

Still some of the best things about this forum is the research that pulls it all together, when it appears there's nothing left to debate. The above thought may have already been presented or not, but a pre-time line may help in this case.

[MuffyBee]

There have been several time lines posted in these thread, if that is helpful.

[Kiwi]

There have been several time lines posted in these thread, if that is helpful.

Page two has a photo reported to be 1:30pm the same day May 3rd. About 8 hours elapse till Madeleine is reported missing. The time stamp is from her mothers camera. First question is can the time stamp be changed? Second question is there anyone outside the diner circle that saw her in that time period? Like another guest or staff?

[SteveDinMD]

I think this one point bears repeating since it's been missed by many:

THE McCANNs WEREN'T THE LAST PEOPLE KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN WITH MADELINE!!!  This dubious honor probably belongs to Dr. Oldfield, who checked on the McCann children, but didn't report Madeline missing.  He later claimed to have not actually laid eyes on the children, but, rather, only listened at their door.  Oldfield's story might be true.  If he were the culprit, though, his story is EXACTLY the lie he would be expected to tell in the hope of casting suspicion away from himself.  I don't necessarily believe Oldfield is responsible, but the factual circumstances make him a FAR more likely suspect than the McCanns, who are just about the LEAST likely of all. 

[NYC_lover]

Rob, Steve, MuffyBee, Anna and Tamikosmom?

What do u all think, what there is happened, with this little girl?

[SteveDinMD]

There have been several time lines posted in these thread, if that is helpful.

Page two has a photo reported to be 1:30pm the same day May 3rd. About 8 hours elapse till Madeleine is reported missing. The time stamp is from her mothers camera. First question is can the time stamp be changed? Second question is there anyone outside the diner circle that saw her in that time period? Like another guest or staff?

The 1:30 PM timestamp correlates to 2:30 PM local time in Portugal.  If the image was taken directly from the camera's memory card, special methods and equipment would have been necessary to modify the timestamp.  There have also been reports that Madeline was seen in the company of her father at the resort's Paraiso restaurant shortly before 6:00 PM local time.  This was supposedly captured on surveillance cameras.  The McCanns and their friends had dinner together beginning sometime after 8:00 PM.  Mr. McCann claims that he checked on the children at around 9:00 PM.  Dr. Oldfied, a friend of the McCann's, claims to have checked on the McCann children at around 9:30 PM.  Mrs. McCann reported Madeline missing at around 10:00 PM.  When interviewed later, Oldfield claimed that he didn't actually know whether or not Madeline was already missing by the time he checked on her and her siblings, since he didn't actually SEE the children.  Rather than look in on them, Oldfield claimed that he merely listened at the door.  

[SteveDinMD]

Rob, Steve, MuffyBee, Anna and Tamikosmom?

What do u all think, what there is happened, with this little girl?

Given the tight timelines for the McCanns and their friends, and given the circumstances of her disappearance, Madeline was probably abducted by a resort employee, a local, or perhaps even another guest at the resort.  There are other, more remote, possibilities, but these three are the most likely.  Sadly, given historical data on child abductions, the prospects for Madeline's survival are slim.  Miracles sometimes happen, though, so hope shouldn't be abandoned. 

[Tamikosmom]

I think this one point bears repeating since it's been missed by many:

THE McCANNs WEREN'T THE LAST PEOPLE KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN WITH MADELINE!!!  This dubious honor probably belongs to Dr. Oldfield, who checked on the McCann children, but didn't report Madeline missing.  He later claimed to have not actually laid eyes on the children, but, rather, only listened at their door.  Oldfield's story might be true.  If he were the culprit, though, his story is EXACTLY the lie he would be expected to tell in the hope of casting suspicion away from himself.  I don't necessarily believe Oldfield is responsible, but the factual circumstances make him a FAR more likely suspect than the McCanns, who are just about the LEAST likely of all. 

Steve

1.  Do you have a link to where Dr. Oldfield ... a spokesperson for the Portuguese investigation or ... a spokesperson for the McCanns .. states that a sleeping Madeleine was observed by Dr. Oldfield?

2.  Do you have link to a quote where Dr. Oldfield ... identified spokesperson for the Portugese investigation ... identified spokesperson for the McCanns ... stated that Dr. Oldfield changed his account in regards to observing a sleeping Madelein. 

Steve ... if Dr. Oldfield and ... not the McCanns ... was the last known person to have observed the missing little girl or ... he changed his original story ... I will concede that the investigation should ... in the process of elimination ... also be focused on Dr. Oldfield in regards to what extent his possible involvement was in the disappearance of Madeleine.   
 
Janet

[Tamikosmom]

Rob, Steve, MuffyBee, Anna and Tamikosmom?

What do u all think, what there is happened, with this little girl?

It should be remembered that under Portugese law no information regarding gathered evidence in an investigation is permitted to be released to the media.  It is very difficult to put together a theory based on conflicting unsubstantiated/ unidentified sources.

While in Portugual the McCanns hired "Bell Pottinger crisis management consultant Alex Woolfall, Sheree Dodd, a former spokeswoman for the Government, and former treasury special advisor Justine McGuinness".

Logic implies that the following quote attributed to Justine McGuinness is derived from a foundation of knowledge ... the McCanns.  McGuinness states that DNA in the form of blood was located in the rental car ... the rental car that the McCanns letted 25 days following the alleged abduction of Madeleine.

IF McGuinness has been quoted correctly and ... IF the DNA evidence in the forum of blood in the rental car is linked to Madeleine McCann ... I believe that Kate and Gerry McCann have not been truthful regarding the events encompassing their daughter's disappearance.

Janet

+++++++++++++++++++++

Parents of Missing British Girl Madeleine McCann Want to Leave Portugal
Saturday, September 08, 2007

But police said new forensic tests done on evidence gathered months after the girl vanished found traces of blood in the couple's car, said Justine McGuinness, a spokeswoman for the family.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296150,00.html

[Kiwi]

There have been several time lines posted in these thread, if that is helpful.

Page two has a photo reported to be 1:30pm the same day May 3rd. About 8 hours elapse till Madeleine is reported missing. The time stamp is from her mothers camera. First question is can the time stamp be changed? Second question is there anyone outside the diner circle that saw her in that time period? Like another guest or staff?

The 1:30 PM timestamp correlates to 2:30 PM local time in Portugal.  If the image was taken directly from the camera's memory card, special methods and equipment would have been necessary to modify the timestamp.  There have also been reports that Madeline was seen in the company of her father at the resort's Paraiso restaurant shortly before 6:00 PM local time.  This was supposedly captured on surveillance cameras.  The McCanns and their friends had dinner together beginning sometime after 8:00 PM.  Mr. McCann claims that he checked on the children at around 9:00 PM.  Dr. Oldfied, a friend of the McCann's, claims to have checked on the McCann children at around 9:30 PM.  Mrs. McCann reported Madeline missing at around 10:00 PM.  When interviewed later, Oldfield claimed that he didn't actually know whether or not Madeline was already missing by the time he checked on her and her siblings, since he didn't actually SEE the children.  Rather than look in on them, Oldfield claimed that he merely listened at the door. 

Thanks for looking this up. It seems to tighten the time line down to just a few hours 6-8pm, prior to dinner. It also shows they considered feeding the children prior to there expected dinner arrangements which would be normal if you didn't bring children to dinner. Just should have been a sitter with all of them.

[NYC_lover]

Steve and Tamikosmom, thank you.
I go agree with, both of your parts.

[Kermit]

I think this one point bears repeating since it's been missed by many:

THE McCANNs WEREN'T THE LAST PEOPLE KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN WITH MADELINE!!!  This dubious honor probably belongs to Dr. Oldfield, who checked on the McCann children, but didn't report Madeline missing.  He later claimed to have not actually laid eyes on the children, but, rather, only listened at their door.  Oldfield's story might be true.  If he were the culprit, though, his story is EXACTLY the lie he would be expected to tell in the hope of casting suspicion away from himself.  I don't necessarily believe Oldfield is responsible, but the factual circumstances make him a FAR more likely suspect than the McCanns, who are just about the LEAST likely of all. 

Steve

1.  Do you have a link to where Dr. Oldfield ... a spokesperson for the Portuguese investigation or ... a spokesperson for the McCanns .. states that a sleeping Madeleine was observed by Dr. Oldfield?

2.  Do you have link to a quote where Dr. Oldfield ... identified spokesperson for the Portugese investigation ... identified spokesperson for the McCanns ... stated that Dr. Oldfield changed his account in regards to observing a sleeping Madelein. 

Steve ... if Dr. Oldfield and ... not the McCanns ... was the last known person to have observed the missing little girl or ... he changed his original story ... I will concede that the investigation should ... in the process of elimination ... also be focused on Dr. Oldfield in regards to what extent his possible involvement was in the disappearance of Madeleine.   
 
Janet

At 2105 Mr McCann went to check on the children, followed by Dr Oldfield at 2130,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6984836.stm



"In his statement to police, which was not officially released but was leaked to newspapers, he allegedly admitted only listening at the door or just popping his head round, sparking speculation she may have gone missing before 9.30pm.

Dr Oldfield is a consultant endocrinologist who works for Kingston Hospital.
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1681385.mostcommented.hospital_consultant_is_maddy_witness.php

[Tamikosmom]

Steve

1.  Do you have a link to where Dr. Oldfield ... a spokesperson for the Portuguese investigation or ... a spokesperson for the McCanns .. states that a sleeping Madeleine was observed by Dr. Oldfield?

2.  Do you have link to a quote where Dr. Oldfield ... identified spokesperson for the Portugese investigation ... identified spokesperson for the McCanns ... stated that Dr. Oldfield changed his account in regards to observing a sleeping Madelein. 

Steve ... if Dr. Oldfield and ... not the McCanns ... was the last known person to have observed the missing little girl or ... he changed his original story ... I will concede that the investigation should ... in the process of elimination ... also be focused on Dr. Oldfield in regards to what extent his possible involvement was in the disappearance of Madeleine.   
 
Janet

At 2105 Mr McCann went to check on the children, followed by Dr Oldfield at 2130,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6984836.stm



"In his statement to police, which was not officially released but was leaked to newspapers, he allegedly admitted only listening at the door or just popping his head round, sparking speculation she may have gone missing before 9.30pm.

Dr Oldfield is a consultant endocrinologist who works for Kingston Hospital.
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1681385.mostcommented.hospital_consultant_is_maddy_witness.php

Kermit ... neither of these articles you provided which cite unidentified sources stated that Dr. Oldfield claimed that he "observed" a sleeping Madeleine.

I have accumulated articles where "leaks from within the investigation" and "unidentified sources" imply evidence exists which confirms that the McCann's are participants in a coverup of an unfortunate incident that resulted in their little girl's death.

Then there are other articles I have saved which cite "leaks from within the investigation" and "unidentifed sources" and ... the words within shift the focus of suspicion from the McCanns to others in regards to the alleged abduction of this precious child.

Kermit ... bottom line ... I am skeptical regarding conflicting articles which cite "leaks from within the investigation" and "unidentified source" to back up allegations ... regardless of the position taken.

Janet


Hospital consultant is Maddy witness
September 11, 2007

Reports say Dr Oldfield was the last to check on Madeleine before her mother discovered her to be missing at 10pm.

In his statement to police, which was not officially released but was leaked to newspapers, he allegedly admitted only listening at the door or just popping his head round, sparking speculation she may have gone missing before 9.30pm.

http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1681385.mostcommented.hospital_consultant_is_maddy_witness.php


Madeleine: What we know
September 26, 2006

Leaks from the investigation suggest the McCanns arrived for dinner at 2040 local time that evening, according to their friends.

At 2105 Mr McCann went to check on the children, followed by Dr Oldfield at 2130, they said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6984836.stm

[NYC_lover]

Ouders Madeleine zouden valse sporen hebben gelegd.
Ontslag voor leider onderzoek Maddy.
De Portugese leider van het onderzoek naar de vermiste Madeleine McCann is ontslagen.

Translation:
Parents Madeleine will have laid false tracks.
Dismissal for leader research Maddy.
The Portuguese leader of the researching into the missing Madeleine McCann has been dismissed.

[Rob]

Rob, Steve, MuffyBee, Anna and Tamikosmom?

What do u all think, what there is happened, with this little girl?

NYC_lover- I have always believed she was abducted. What do you think.

[Rob]

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral sacked.

He has been dismissed. I'm not sure of the reasons. There is a lot of speculation right now.