Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Kat_Gram]

If under Portugese law the police and prosecutors are not allowed to give out the " evidence " to the media or make it public and the parents have to do the same, where is all this info coming from ?
An unnamed " source " close to the investigation ? Is there a Julia in Portugal ?
Soory, I just had to make the connection,   

[Rob]

Yesterday I started a thread on the Mirror Forum dealing with DNA. Two very astute UK posters chimed in and gave some very good info about DNA in general and the British and Portuguese requirements for Markers. I would like to share that here with you. Although I love science, I do not know all of the intricacies of DNA testing. The standards appear to differ from country to country and it is not an exact science.

Madeleine's case remains a largely circumstantial and forensic case due to a missing body. The fact also remains that we do not know who the egg or sperm donors are and that complicates the issue of DNA.

**NOTE**
Just because we (You and I) do not know the donors, does not mean that the Authorities do not.

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19900

Scylla
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 121
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:30 am    Post subject: Re: DNA    

Erm, they don't test every single gene.

Human DNA is very similar to that of apes, so given that , the amount of DNA that makes one particular human being unique from other human beings is an even smaller percentage.

When DNA testing is done, "markers" (sequences of base pairs) are looked for. There are a specified number of locations on the DNA (loci) that are examined to see if those markers are present there. Up until 1999 in the UK, only 6 loci used to be tested, but that has been increased to 10. The FBI tests for 13.

Sometimes the amount of sample collected contains very little DNA, so whatever there is has to be "amplified" or copied in order to run further tests on it. Some DNA tests can take several weeks to complete, and I suppose that if any particular sample had to be subjected to more than one test, it would increase the delay.

DNA evidence, no matter how well it matches, should not be used on its own to prove guilt, though. It has to be taken into consideration along with all the other evidence that has been found because it's not foolproof.

I'm not sure where the figure 88% came from (some sources said 80%). One article claimed that they were able to test 15 markers, though they had wanted to test 20. 15 out of 20 isn't 88%, nor even 80%. It's only 75%. But all 15 of those tested matched Madeleine's (some might have considered that to be the 100% match we've seen referred to: 15 out of 15).

Here are a couple of links for anyone who wants to read about DNA testing:

How Stuff Works: http://science.howstuffworks.com/dna-evidence1.htm

DNA Testing: An Introduction for Non-Scientists: http://www.scientific.org/tuto.....riley.html

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beachy
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 481

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:22 am    Post subject:    
Zoltan, you are right about the number of genes in the human body. However, in doing DNA testing on a questioned sample, only a small fraction of that number is used.

Once DNA "markers" called "STRs" ( "standard tandem repeats") are what is tested. Standard tests uses 10, 15, 20, or 25 markers. (There are test kits for 65 markers, but those are generally only used under special circumstances, such as identical twins.) How many markers are used generally depends on local laws, regulations, and/or court precedents that establish what the courts of a particular jurisdiction consider satisfactory to establish that DNA is a match.

The standard in the UK is to test 10 DNA markers. (I have posted the link on this several times and will send you the article again if anyone wants it; PM me.) Portugal appears to use 20. I base this on newspaper articles that have said they did not get the full 20 markers that they normally test for from the DNA sample found in the boot of the car because it was degraded - probably due to heat, time since it was deposited, etc.

When you cannot extract the standard number of markers normally used in your test, the default is to assume the number you could not get are a "no match" (obviously one cannot presume the opposite when they were not available for testing); this is the conclusion most favorable to the defendant.

According to media reports, all the DNA markers extracted from the sample in the boot of the hire car matched Madeleine's DNA. A DNA sample in which 88% of the markers match Madeleine's DOES have probative value. Obviously, it is not as definitive as if 100% of them had matched, but it certainly would be useful in a prosecution.

All the information above refers to nuclear DNA, which is the most definitive type of test done. It is also possible to test for mitochondrial DNA, which is not as exact because it passed through the mother's line and a mother and all her daughters will have the same mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) can be obtained from a hair shaft that is less than 1 cm in length; to test a hair for nuclear DNA, one must have the hair root, or follicle. MtDNA tests take a long time. They're probably testing the hairs found in the boot for mtDNA, is my guess.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scylla
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 121

   
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:57 am    Post subject:    
DNA evidence is NOT completely foolproof.

First of all, since tests are performed on only a small portion of the genome, absolutely positive identification is not possible. What it does do is either include or exclude someone with varying degrees of probability.

As with every other type of laboratory testing, the risk of contamination and human error is always present.

If Low Copy Number (as it's called in the UK) or PCR (as it's called in North America) is performed on the sample first to amplify (copy) it, the risk of contamination is even more pronounced.

The UK moved to using 10 loci as the standard because the 6 loci they had previously been using was proved to be insufficient. This resulted from a case in which a man had, because the DNA had "identified" him, been convicted of a crime that it had been physically impossible for him to have committed due to the fact that he was physically disabled to the point of being unable to leave his home.

There is also some suggestion that in the not-too-distant future, even 10 loci will be insufficient due to the sheer size of the DNA d-base in the UK. Statistically, the greater the number of DNA identifications the d-base contains, the greater the risk of false matches.

As I understand it, Short Tandem Repeat testing (STR) is what is commonly used in forensics. I am not sure whether that same term is used in the UK, though. The explanation about STR is available on both those links. LCN/PCR and STR, as well as other methods, are all used on nuclear DNA.

[Rob]

ABSOLUTELY STUNNING POST FROM MIRROR BOARD TRULY SPECTACULAR.

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19889&start=30

P20
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 1375
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject:

properdad

Lots of lies, you're right.

But they're hiding them behind the McCann shield.

Who has most to lose?

McCanns, right ?

How many big mistakes had they made to the point they agreed to go to Luz ?

Found any ? Any cans of worms hinted at, anywhere, anyone ?

Few hints here and there in the forums about Gerry playing away games.

Few revelations concerning Kate's student years.

But I'm talking big ones, such as embezzlement, grievious bodily harm, theft, murder -- that sort of thing. Nothing (although now it's been mentioned here, we can expect the 'media' will latch onto it and begin dragging skeletons more imaginary than real into this: short on imagination, the 'media' ).

So, they'd kept their noses clean. Done the hard slog. Repaid their student loans. Tried for children. Problems. They didn't quit. Went the IVF road. Not an easy one. Success ! Madeleine Beth ! Went back for another try, because they wanted a family. Success again ! Sean and Amelie.

Any rumour from Social Services about child-abuse, child-neglect ? Nope. Not that we've heard, anyway. Do the children appear happy and well cared for ? Seem to. Those twins look full of personality and confidence -- normal. Madeleine? Well, despite that we've picked some photos apart and tried to make the pieces fit our preconceived notions, the fact is, she looks pretty happy in most photos too. She'd had quite a few difficult adjustments to make at a difficult stage in her development. Twins -- just as she was testing her will and personality on the world. There she was, centre stage and just an age to appreciate that, when along came an ootsy-cutsy double act that turned all the grown-ups into drooling jelly. Despite that, in the photos we've seen of her, she looks as if she's coping. And in photos of Madeleine and Gerry, there seems a lot of mutual affection. So ....... seems as if Kate and Gerry were coping with the demands of careers and family.

Which is what we'd expect, considering they had what it took to keep their noses to the grindstone in order to establish those careers and family.

We're told they suddenly dropped their bundle in Luz. We're told they for some reason suddenly threw caution to the winds and left their kids alone and either allowed one of them to become abducted or killed her. We're told they then compounded their stupidity and evil intent by concealing their crime and concealing their child's body. We're told they lied to everyone about everything and played hide and seek with their child's body.

We're told they laughed in the world's face and came up with an audacious plot to reap millions of pounds from the child they'd killed.

We're told they're liars and cowards and have managed not only to fool the UK and Portuguese police ....... they've also managed to trick self-made millionaires and Prime Ministerial candidates and the media.

Let's examine that group for a moment. As a rule, that group is stunningly lacking in compassion. They live and die by the motto: Numbah One. We're being asked to accept they have, to a man, suddenly been attacked by overdoses of estrogen to the point they're almost expressing milk -- of kindness, empathy, naivety. Well, you might buy that, but I don't.

So why *are* these ruthlessly self-serving individuals and groups standing by the McCann (or at least, doing a good impression of standing by them) ?

How many reasons can there be? There's something in it for them ? (usual reason they do anything at all). Or they're actually COVERING for someone else and they're using the McCanns as patsy shield ? I lean towards the latter.

Well, obviously, Gordon Brown, Branson, Philip Green (and of course, the 'media' which in fact is the private business of several other allegedly self-made billionaires) know a lot more about what *actually* occurred in Luz than any member of the public who's yet spoken out.

And what these self-made millionaires have concentrated upon for the past five months, is to keep the McCanns up there on the mast-head. Yes. That's what they have done are continue to do.

Now these are rich and powerful individuals who in turn control powerful organisations, etc. At *ANY* time -- if they believed in the McCanns or cared one iota about them --- they could have (and ordinarily WOULD have) arranged for someone to be framed. False witnesses, false evidence, false confessions etc. are CHEAP -- a matter of pennies, to these people. Without raising a sweat, they could have (and ordinarily, would have) arranged them. The media would have played out this phoney scenario. The public would have clung to every word and would have accepted it. The McCanns (innocent or guilty) would have walked off to a sunset filled with book and movie rights and ambassadorial titles.

Instead, these rich and powerful 'backers' of the McCanns have kept them right up there, sweating in the camera glare, hemmed-in by minders ala Clarence Mitchell (and no doubt a private army of 'security guards').

No, these rich and powerful backers are *NOT* doing the McCanns any favours at all. They're claiming and pretending to. When the reality is: they're *using* the McCanns ! In the same way as they used McCann family members.

They used the Portuguese media to initiate the suspicion, to 'reveal information' and to 'leak' alleged 'leaked' claims by the PJ.

Then they used their UK media and pretended to cry 'foul' about the Portuguese media --- whilst at the same time repeating the Portuguese media's claims and adding more damning 'information' for good measure. Back and forth have gone the UK and PT media. Tag team. Working together.
And this little combo is where ALL the public's 'information' has been derived.
Every scrap. All that stuff about 'leaving the children alone night after night'. All the stuff about revoked and changed Timelines. The Scents of Death. The Pants of Ganga. The claims Kate 'refused to answer questions'. The umpteen alleged PJ 'leaks'.

And to top it off, they've engaged multiple-ID 'forum posters' to play both sides of the fence and stir controversy ............ the aim being to keep the McCanns nailed solid to the mast and in everyone's face, dominating everyone's attention.

Yet none of it was necessary. If Madeleine had died or been injured in an accident of some kind, it could have been dealt with without all this hullaballoo.

So the inescapable conclusion is .......... *someone* (or a group of someones) WANTED this hullaballoo. And instigated it. And has continued --- ruthlessly --to promote it.

The reponsibility for the Fund and the Marketing Madeleine fiasco etc. is attributed to the McCanns themselves and members of their families.

Within days, the public was 'informed' (via media and alleged forum-members) that the McCanns themselves had phoned Sky and other individuals and entities even *before* the PJ were informed of the alleged abduction. Similarly, the public was 'informed' that the greedy, grasping McCanns and families were making hay as fast as Paypal could register the donations.

Those behind this obscenity were and are well aware that the first cut is the deepest and the first items of 'information' are those which make the most impression and last the longest -- become accepted as 'true' in fact.

The public was for months 'informed' by the media and its twiglets, the 'forum members' that the McCanns said this or said that. The PJ were saying plenty all along. And because the UK media went into suspended animation for a period (stood down while those behind the scenes plugged the cracks) the PJ and Portuguese media -- as the only form of 'reliable' information -- became folk-heroes overnight. Everything they uttered was regarded as gospel. When in fact, they were simply filling in for the UK media and setting the stage.

When all the above and more is taken into account, it appears likely that the McCanns were framed, were set-up. Maybe it was a natural progression and rather that fight it, those actually responsible for whatever happened to Madeleine decided: ' Hey, this is a god-sent opportunity here. Why look a gift-horse in the mouth. People believe the McCanns are guilty. So let's run with that. '

We don't know the ins and outs of it all. How could we -- we've been on the receiving end of BS and spin for more than five months.

But what we do know is this:- if they'd wanted to, the Prime Minister and media and billionaires could have avoided all of it. If they'd wanted to, they could have 'solved' this little caper five months ago. If they'd wanted to, they could have framed a patsy and pulled the McCanns through without a spot on their name. They do it all the time. All the time. They abandoned morality, ethics, decency, truth ------- a long, long time ago. If they hadn't, they would NOT be Prime Ministerial candidates or billionaires today. Anyone who isn't aware of that should really walk away and get on with their own lives and problems instead of p*ssing around with this online McCann mystery thing.

So the inescapable conclusion is --- the rich and powerful WANT the McCanns in the position they're in. They WANT the media circus and controversy to continue (in fact, they're creating it, hourly, daily). They *arranged* for the more controversial elements to be publicised, such as the dogs and Scents of Death, just as they arrange for all the other little bits of 'news and information' to filter down to the Sheepies.

The ONLY thing we don't know is -- are the McCanns willing participants ? Were they framed by the very people claiming to 'help' them ? If so, who really took Madeleine? A well-connected paedophile or perhaps a group of them ? Or was Madeleine taken in order to close down certain individuals and entities with whom the McCanns may have been associated ?

Do you know the answers, properdad ?

And will there be slices of melon, some nice cheeses, grapes and freshly squeezed fruit juices and ice along with corn-chips and dip

[Rob]

If you read the above post. PANTS OF GANGA means BLUE JEANS.

[MuffyBee]

Hmmmmmmmmm.

[MsVada]

Hmmmmmmmmm.

I'll second that!  quite an interesting post.

[MuffyBee]

Hmmmmmmmmm.

I'll second that!  quite an interesting post.

There is so much in the post, it really needs to be broken down in pieces.

[pdh3]

Hmmmmmmmmm.

I'll second that!  quite an interesting post.

There is so much in the post, it really needs to be broken down in pieces.

ITA!

This case is getting to be very confusing. Contradictory statements, people coming and going.....gossip and innuendo treated as facts. I'm not even sure what is true and what isn't anymore, except that a child is missing. It's hard to grasp any of it.
Maybe it's just me....

[NYC_lover]

New proof found again parents Madeleine McCann.
And Portugal is silent. About what kind of DNA material they have found.

[MuffyBee]

New proof found again parents Madeleine McCann.
And Portugal is silent. About what kind of DNA material they have found.

NYC_Lover I have found an article saying new DNA material has been found that links the McCanns, but cites it's  source is a British newspaper.  I'm not certain that would be reliable.  I will look and see if I can find a reliable source.  If you've found a reliable source, do you have a link?  I've gotten so confused by who is saying what in this case.  Sometimes it's "a family member" that says things, which could or couldn't be reliable.
UK News
McCanns: British police discover 'new DNA evidence' (Roundup)
By Rich Bowden, M&C Staff Writer Oct 8, 2007, 15:24 GMT
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/news/article_1363474.php/McCanns_British_police_discover_new_DNA_evidence__Roundup_

[Anna]

Muffy,
This seems to be the quoted article in its entirety.

Madeleine: New DNA evidence 'provides fresh link to parents'
By JAMES MILLS and VANESSA ALLEN - More by this author »
 
Last updated at 15:22pm on 8th October 2007
 
 Comments (71)

Kate and Gerry McCann have been dealt a further blow by claims that new DNA tests back up suspicions they were involved in their daughter's disappearance.

The tests, carried out by the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham, were said to reinforce earlier forensic evidence linking Madeleine to a car hired by the couple more than three weeks after she vanished.

The McCanns continue to insist that any DNA found in the car could have been innocently transferred from their daughter's clothing when they moved to a new apartment.


Scroll down for more...


Gerry and Kate McCann at the Leicester Mercury Offices on the 4th October

But FSS sources are reported to have claimed that while the fresh DNA evidence does not provide conclusive proof, it does suggest, on balance, that the Portuguese police were right to make the couple arguidos, or official suspects.

The two 39-year-old doctors are said to be extremely distressed by the claims, not least because such speculation shifts the focus away from the search for their daughter.

They fear that the search was effectively halted by Portuguese police three months ago when British police sniffer dogs reacted to the 'scent of death' on Mrs McCann's clothing.

The scaling down of the police operation in Portugal has forced them to bring in their own team of investigators to follow up leads and potential sightings.


Read more...

Madeleine: Kate and Gerry fear 'cloud of suspicion' will never leave them



Madeleine McCann
Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns' spokesman, has issued a defiant response to the latest cloud of suspicion hanging over the couple.

He said: "Kate and Gerry have nothing to hide and any material that may or may not have been found by police in Portugal can be wholly and innocently explained.

"They are keen for the judicial process to proceed and for the arguido status eventually to be lifted, as they are confident it will be.

"The allegations against them are ludicrous and we are hoping to clear their names as soon as possible."

Last week, the McCanns' British lawyers flew to Lisbon last week for a meeting with their Portuguese counterparts to discuss their case.

The McCanns are also keeping a close eye on personnel changes within the Portuguese police and pray that whoever takes over from sacked police chief Goncalo Amaral will refocus the investigation on the search for their daughter.

In the meantime, a series of TV adverts organised by the Find Madeleine campaign is ready to be broadcast in Morocco, where there have been a number of reported sightings.

A poster campaign in Spanish supermarkets is also planned.

The McCanns had been hoping that new DNA samples taken by British police officers from their hire car, the apartment in Praia da Luz from where the four-year-old disappeared on May 3 and other parts of the Mark Warner holiday complex would help clear their names.

But a source at the FSS told the Evening Standard: "There is no reason to change the direction of the investigation and everything that has emerged indicates that it is focusing where it should.

"This is a very complex case and forensics are rarely conclusive on their own, but the new material adds to the existing picture that has been built up by police and fills in a few more pieces of the jigsaw."

The source is said to have claimed that the samples were of sufficient quality to distinguish between Madeleine's DNA and that of her twin siblings Sean and Amelie or her parents.

The scientists were also said to have taken into account the possibility that the DNA could have been transferred via her toys or clothes. It was conceded however that the quality of the DNA samples taken by British officers was not as good as it would have been if the Portuguese had collected it earlier.

The McCanns' supporters insist that the case against them is fundamentally flawed and that, ironically, it was their own efforts to kick start the investigation that led to them being named as suspects.

The sniffer dogs said to have picked up the scent of a corpse on Mrs McCann were only brought in after the couple gave the go ahead for retired South African police officer Daniel Krugel - dubbed the Locator - to conduct a search.

He uses a secret scientific method to find murder victims by following their DNA trail with the help of global positioning satellites.

A family friend said: "The irony for Kate and Gerry is that through them trying to move the case forward and be proactive it's actually led to them being made suspects.

"But sniffer dogs should only be used to gather evidence and something solid needs to be found after they react.

"The mere fact that the dogs react does not necessarily mean there is evidence there, but the Portuguese police don't seem to have taken this view."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=486351&in_page_id=1770

[Helen Back]

It seems to me that the fact that the Portuguese Police did not conduct a proper investigation from the beginning in that they failed to thoroughly investigate the family, friends, and those closest to Madeleine so as to rule them out, they failed to preserve any of the crime scenes including the apartment and the rental car, together with the fact that their lead investigator in charge of the case has been dismissed and his credibility as an investigator is very questionable, and the second in command has declined to take over the investigation........is not looking good for making a case against Kate and Gerry McCann.  By the way, where is Madeleine?

Helen

[NYC_lover]

New proof found again parents Madeleine McCann.
And Portugal is silent. About what kind of DNA material they have found.

NYC_Lover I have found an article saying new DNA material has been found that links the McCanns, but cites it's  source is a British newspaper.  I'm not certain that would be reliable.  I will look and see if I can find a reliable source.  If you've found a reliable source, do you have a link?  I've gotten so confused by who is saying what in this case.  Sometimes it's "a family member" that says things, which could or couldn't be reliable.
UK News
McCanns: British police discover 'new DNA evidence' (Roundup)
By Rich Bowden, M&C Staff Writer Oct 8, 2007, 15:24 GMT
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/news/article_1363474.php/McCanns_British_police_discover_new_DNA_evidence__Roundup_

MuffyBee - Well we talk about the same thing. But I had read it in De Telegraaf.
But it is around the same article. Thank you for posting this.

[MsVada]

It seems to me that the fact that the Portuguese Police did not conduct a proper investigation from the beginning in that they failed to thoroughly investigate the family, friends, and those closest to Madeleine so as to rule them out, they failed to preserve any of the crime scenes including the apartment and the rental car, together with the fact that their lead investigator in charge of the case has been dismissed and his credibility as an investigator is very questionable, and the second in command has declined to take over the investigation........is not looking good for making a case against Kate and Gerry McCann.  By the way, where is Madeleine?Helen

Good question, I wish their focus was on fining Maddie and not worrying so much about railroading the parents.

[Puzzler]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....ddy209.xml

"
By Aislinn Simpson in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 5:41pm BST 09/10/2007

Detectives have launched new searches at the apartment where Madeleine McCann disappeared - returning to the scene for first time since late July.
# Head of Madeleine inquiry faces trial
# In Full: The search for Madeleine McCann

Seven Portuguese officers entered the house at 7am today and remained inside until the early afternoon as they continued to attempt to build a case against official suspects Kate and Gerry McCann.

Madeleine McCann: British police sources say Portuguese police are justified in focusing on the McCanns
Madeleine disappeared on May 3

Amongst them was Chief Inspector Tavares Almeida, the officer who interviewed Mrs McCann, and who recently asked to be taken off the case on unpaid leave.

Portuguese police are convinced that the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz "holds the key" to solving the case but it is not clear if they were following a specific lead.

It is understood that there were also new searches at the beach. DNA samples from the flat and the McCann's hire car, which were collected in late July by British police, are still being processed every week.

It emerged that lawyers acting for the parents have hired their own forensic experts to refute the DNA evidence allegedly linking them to the four-year-old's disappearance.

It is believed they had already "gone over" the Renault Scenic Mr and Mrs McCann hired 25 days after she went missing - in which it is alleged a complete DNA match with Madeleine was found.

The couple insist that all the allegations against them can be explained innocently and have gone "on the front foot" in putting together a defence case to clear them of their "arguido" status.

The McCanns' law firm Kingsley Napley, one of the leading criminal law firms in the country, is understood to have brought in their own experts to brief them on the feasibility of the alleged evidence being tested at the Forensic Science laboratory in Birmingham.
advertisement

Mr and Mrs McCann are hoping that the appointment of a new police chief in the case will help them to shift the focus away from them and back to the hunt for Madeleine.

Paulo Rebelo, the national deputy director of the Policia Judiciaria, has been drafted in to replace the former head Goncalo Amaral, who was sacked after he accused British police of being manipulated by the McCanns.

It is believed Mr Rebelo may have been one of the officers at the Praia da Luz flat being shown the scene.

Although he has no previous experience of child abductions, he has played a part in some of the country's most high-profile cases, including one into the sexual abuse of children at an orphanage. Colleagues say he is discreet, articulate and approachable.

Clarence Mitchell, a spokesman for the couple, said: "Kate and Gerry hope that Mr Rebelo will now work to eliminate them from the inquiry as suspects and will then be in a position to refocus his team into the search for Madeleine.

"Clearly we hope that a new head of the inquiry will work to ensure the unsubstantiated and unfounded allegations surrounding the case will now end."

Mr Mitchell said the parents were unable to move on or grieve for Madeleine until they knew for definite what had happened to her.

"They need that knowledge whether Madeleine is alive or dead - let's face it, she might be," he said in an interview with GMTV.

"They need to know, before they can move on, before they can deal with that."

The incessant speculation continued, however, including one report claiming that the McCanns and the three couples they were on holiday with left of their children sleeping in the McCann's apartment while they dined in a nearby tapas restaurant.

Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas reported, quoting a senior PJ officer as claiming: "It's not just the evidence gathered which point to the fact of there being more children in the apartment, there is also the evidence duly backed up after interrogation upon the rest of the people who were in the Ocean Club."

None of the McCann's friends were available for comment but Mr Mitchell dismissed the claims as "utter rubbish", saying only Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings Sean and Amelie slept there.

"If you put seven children together, you're going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep than three," he said "

[Tamikosmom]

Madeleine: Kidnap theories 'inconsistent' with evidence
Study shows kidnapper would not have been able to escape unseen

Last updated at 15:33pm on 9th October 2007 three-dimensional reconstruction of the night Madeleine McCann disappeared has been produced by a criminal psychologist - who has concluded that it would have been very difficult for a kidnapper to snatch Madeleine unnoticed.

Paulo Sargento, a leading Portuguese criminal psychologist, used minute-by-minute breakdowns produced by several media sources to test all possible hypotheses regarding the possibility that Madeleine was snatched.

He concluded that, with the number of people passing by the Ocean Club resort, where the McCann family were staying, it would have been difficult for a would-be kidnapper to escape unnoticed from the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping with her twins siblings.

Mr Sargento, from Lusófona University in Libson, cross-checked the times of events from a number of sources, from 4pm, when Madeleie was picked up kindergarten, until 10pm, when her mother Kate reported her missing.

He concluded that between 8pm and 10pm - the period Madeleine was left alone - members of the McCann party including their friends, got up from their meal a total of 14 times.

Dr Sargento told SIC television: “There were people passing almost every five minutes.

"The question is how, in that time, could it be possible with so many people coming and going that no one saw someone coming in through the window without being seen? We have concluded this theory is very inconsistent."

The recreation of events will be made available to police investigators.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=486648&in_page_id=1770
 

[NYC_lover]

Doubts in McCann case

De Portugese krant 24 Horas heeft twijfels over de getuigenis van een vriend, Russell O'Brien, die een half uur afwezig was. Net voor de McCanns de verdwijning van Maddie vaststelden, was hij teruggekeerd naar het restaurant. O'Brien is nooit een officiële verdachte geweest en zegt dat hij tijdens zijn afwezigheid bij zijn zieke dochter was, meldt hln.be.

Translation English:
The Portuguese newspaper 24 horas has doubts concerning the deposition of a friend, Russell O'Brien, who was a half hour absent. Exactly for the McCanns determined the disappearance of Maddie, he had returned to the restaurant. O'Brien an official verdachte has never been and says that he during its absence at its sick for the was, communicates hln.be.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/72623651/_Kinderen_van_vrienden_McCanns_waren_bij_Maddie_.html?p=1,1

[Tamikosmom]

According to unidentified sources ... there are discrepancy in the statements given by the friends who were present with the McCanns at the tapa bar on the evening their daughter was allegedly abducted.

Does anybody know if Jane Tanner still maintains her position that she observed a man near the McCann's apartment carrying a child ... a child wearing the same pyjamas as Madeleine McCann?

If Jane Tanners account proves to be false then I truly believe that the focus should be on the McCanns and their friends.

Janet

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Madeleine: Sniffer dogs 'found scent of death' on one of the McCanns' friends
Last updated at 09:29am on 26th September 2007

According to reports from Portugal, all of those dining with the McCanns that night face further police questioning because their accounts of the night's events allegedly clashed.

Jane Tanner, 37 Dr O'Brien's partner. She arrived late at the tapas bar after treating their sick daughter.  On the way, she passed the McCanns' apartment and saw a man carrying a child. Crucially, her description of the child's clothes matched Madeleine's pink pyjamas.

Dr Russell O'Brien, 36 A consultant in acute medicine at the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital, he knew Gerry McCann from Leicester.  He was on holiday with his partner Jane Tanner and their two young daughters.  At 9.25pm he left the restaurant for around 25 minutes to check on one of the girls, who was ill.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=483881&in_page_id=1811

[Rob]

I think we have all over looked someone.

Jeremy Wilkins. I think that's the right way to spell his name. He is the guy that talks to Gerry outside the flat on the walk way.

He is also in the area. And maybe he deserves further scrutiny?

By the way I got a larger picture of the whole complex from the Mirror Board.

[Rob]