Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Tamikosmom]

I think we have all over looked someone.

Jeremy Wilkins. I think that's the right way to spell his name. He is the guy that talks to Gerry outside the flat on the walk way.

He is also in the area. And maybe he deserves further scrutiny?

<snipped>

Yes ... I agree ... if Jeremy Wilkins was observed in the area of the McCann's apartment in that crucial time frame ... he should have been interrogated and investigated by the PLE.  However ... in the pursuance of justice for this little girl ... the McCann's and their friends should not be afforded a free pass that would imply they are above suspicion.  After all ... something akin to Jeremy Wilkins ... these people were all in the area of the McCann's apartment in that same time period ... the McCann's apartment were it is alledged that Madeleine was sleeping.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++

Madeleine: The vital witness who could help clear the McCann's name
Last updated at 12:14pm on 17th September 2007

Mr Wilkins said he found Mr McCann calm and unflustered during a 15-minute conversation - which would be remarkable for a man supposedly involved in the death of his daughter.

Mr Wilkins, 36, from North-west London, has repeatedly told police he is convinced of the McCanns' innocence. 

A witness who could blow the police case apart was identified for the first time.

TV producer Jeremy Wilkins, on holiday in Praia da Luz with his partner and baby son, spoke to Gerry McCann during the hour when Madeleine went missing.

The cardiologist was on his way back to the resort's tapas restaurant after checking on his three children.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482157&in_page_id=1770

[Rob]

updated to add mystery man

[Tamikosmom]

Thank you Rob.

This image gives a perfect perspective regarding the distance between the McCann's and their sleeping children.  Nancy Grace related the 100 yard distance to a football field and ... she was right on.

If three year old Maddie was kidnapped after being left alone to fend for herself against unforeseen dangers ... nobody to hear her frightened cries ... there has to be legal consequences.  How can the planned actions ... not impromptu actions ... of the McCanns not be considered child endangerment.

I am a compassionate person.  My heart cries for the victim and ... the victim is  Madeleine  ... not her parents.  The McCanns made the choice ... they took the risk with three of their most precious possessions.

Janet 

[MuffyBee]

Here is an interesting article/rumor.  Am only posting it for speculation.  When I've traveled with groups in the past or gone to reunions, sometimes those in the group would bring their children to one room for babysitting in the evenings.  Yes, you might have to come collect and carry the little ones back to the room, but no biggie, since it's vacation time.  Look closely at the sources given in the article.  I had read previously that one of the couples from the Tapas 9 had a baby monitor in their room.  I don't have the link, but I believe the article is somewhere in this thread.  You will  notice the rebuttal here is from the family spokesman Clarence Mitchell or  "a source close to the family" and it says "police"  and "detectives" as the source of the articles speculation. Here is the article FWIW:

Madeleine 'was left in room with six other younsters'
By VANESSA ALLEN - More by this author » Last updated at 23:59pm on 9th October 2007
http://tinyurl.com/353atf
Police are investigating 'significant' evidence that Madeleine McCann was left in her parents' apartment with six other children on the night she disappeared, it was claimed yesterday.

Detectives believe the seven friends holidaying with Kate and Gerry McCann in Portugal also left four of their young children in the couple's apartment.

They said the presence of so many youngsters would make it highly unlikely that four-yearold Madeleine was abducted.

Up until now, it was thought Madeleine was left with just her brother and sister, two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie, while the adults in the party went out to eat in a nearby tapas bar.

Holidaymakers at the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz said three plain-clothes officers revisited the McCanns' holiday apartment at 7am yesterday and stayed inside for up to five hours.

The apparent activity at the flat comes days before the floundering investigation is to be taken over by another officer, Paulo Rebelo, who is said to favour a review of every aspect of the search so far.

The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell denounced the latest claims as part of a smear operation.

Portuguese detectives have regularly briefed Portuguese journalists that they think the socalled Tapas Nine have lied about the events of that fateful night.

"It's utter rubbish," said Mr Mitchell.

"If you put seven children together, you're going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep than three."

Police sources told Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas they had 'significant evidence' that seven of the group's eight children - all under the age of five - had been in the McCanns' apartment on May 3. They gave no explanation as to the whereabouts of the eighth child.

A source close to the family said the group had regularly visited each other's flats during the six-day holiday before Madeleine vanished, but insisted the children all slept in their own apartments.
----------------------------------------------------------

I am still not convinced either way whether the McCann's had anything to do with their daughter's disappearance.  But I do have a lot of questions about the vacation group as a whole.  Remember some of the white lies or maybe even errors in recall?  The children were supposed to have been checked on every 30 minutes by the McCann's.  But the length of time was changed.  And then it was said one of the other Tappas 9 checked on the children but only stood near the door and listened.  I am concerned the others weren't properly interviewed, which could have a big effect on results of finding Madeleine.  Maybe some information  by the Tapas 9 hasn't been given or hasn't been straight forward, because they are embarrassed or concerned that it would implicate someone or show even themselves to be negligent.  If they had been interviewed promptly after Madeleine was discovered missing, some bit or clue might have been uncovered to help find Madeleine.  Sometimes a small detail can mean a lot, imo. 

[NYC_lover]

'There Is No Magic Machine'
Updated: 08:56, Tuesday October 09, 2007

A leading child protection expert has said he has significant concerns about the man nicknamed "The Locator" who has been called in to help find Madeleine McCann.
 
Madeleine: the search continuesFormer detective Mark Williams-Thomas told Sky News Online he doubts the ability of Danie Krugel to provide any assistance in tracking down the missing child.

Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have given the South African some hair found on her clothing to use in his "missing person machine".

Mr Kruger refuses to reveal how his mysterious methods work, but they have apparently won him success and recognition in his homeland - which prompted the McCanns to call him in.

He said he has scoured Praia da Luz, in Portugal, and the surrounding area using the equipment, which he developed himself.

Not much is known about his "matter orientation system machine",  but it is said to use satellite technology, and he has claimed he is currently in negotiations with companies to develop it.

The former policeman said he believed Madeleine was not transported beyond the area where she went missing on May 3, but her chances of being alive were "very slim".

 
Kate and Gerry McCannIt was reported he had uncovered a "forensic route" from Madeleine's holiday apartment, along paths and roads to a nearby beach where the trail went cold.

However, the university health and safety director was reluctant to talk in detail about his search, which was carried out over four nights in July.

And Mr Williams-Thomas told Sky News Online "The Locator's" claims belonged "in the realms of fantasy".

"Krugel has no published academic or scientific information about his machine, neither is there anything on the internet about it and no police force outside of his own country uses it," he said.

"If it really does locate missing people then not only would every police force purchase one, but he would be an acclaimed expert and millionaire.

"I am sure his intentions are honourable - however, there is no easy way to find Madeleine, no magic machine."

Madeleine, from Rothley, in Leicestershire, went missing from her family's holiday apartment while her parents dined nearby. She was three when she disappeared

[Tamikosmom]

I am about to pose a hypothetical question to monkeys who uphold the McCanns with unwavering support.

If the Gerry and Kate McCann had taken your three year old child/grandchild on this Portuguese vacation and ... it is your precious loved one is now missing ...

1.  Would you be compassionate/understanding regarding the premeditated  choice to leave your precious child/grandchild unattended ... out of earshot ... defenceless in the face of unseen dangers?  Would you attempt to justify this choice?

2.  Would you believe ... in the process of elimination ... that Kate and Gerry McCann should be above suspicion ... would you contend that the PLE investigation was corrupt because the McCanns were the primary focus of interest?

I am sincere ... I truly desire to know if perspectives regarding Kate and Gerry McCann would differ if the victim in this incident was your precious child/ grandchild who was entrusted to their care and ... not Madeleine.

I always attempt to put myself in the place of the victim and ... from there prioritize the avenues where justice may have an opportunity to prevail.  In the Madeleine McCann case ... I consider the immediate and primary focus should be Kate and Gerry McCann ... the last persons in their daughter's company.

Janet
     

[pdh3]

Tamikosmom - I just cannot find a motive for the McCann's to have harmed Madeleine. I also don't see how they could have hidden her body, and then later on disposed of it in a foreign country with no one seeing them. That just makes no sense. I do think Maddie was taken from her bed by a pedophile, or by someone wanting her to sell to a pedophile group. She could have been singled out,and had someone waiting for the opportunity to take her, for all we know.
As parents, we have ALL made mistakes. I do not condone leaving 3 very young children asleep by themselves with no adult present, in any way. I would be livid if they had done this with my child. But parents allow kids to do things all the time that I would not. I have a friend who is a lot more casual about what her kids do than I am, but she loves her kids very much. She just isn't as concerned because she sees things differently. If one of her kids is harmed because of her relaxed attitude, she would be devastated, and probably feel extremely guilty. But at this point she doesn't think she's putting her kids in any danger, even if I don't agree. She has a different standard of danger than I do. Other than that, I think she's a great Mom.
I think the McCanns and their friends just thought the kids would be safely asleep, and the adults could have a nice dinner. They thought periodic visits to check on the kids would be sufficient in a place where they felt no danger existed. It was a tragic lapse in judgement, but I don't single them out in that lapse, because all the parents in the group did the same thing with all of their children. The entire group had that break in good common sense parenting. But I just can't see that it makes the McCanns murderers. It does make them neglectful parents,and for that they do bear the responsibility of allowing the opportunity for something bad to happen to one of their babies. I do not excuse that kind of lax parenting, but I do see it all the time. People never seem to think it can happen to them, do they?

[Tamikosmom]

pdh3 ... there are definitely areas where you and I would have to agree to disagree in regards to the Madeleine McCann case.  However ... I sincerely appreciated your honest response.

Thank you.

Janet

[pdh3]

I have the utmost respect for you Janet, and I'd really like to know why you think the McCanns are guilty. You have excellent detective skills, and I have read your posts on BFN as well. I may not see it, but that doesn't mean you don't. Just what is it about them that makes you suspicious?

[robots]

I am about to pose a hypothetical question to monkeys who uphold the McCanns with unwavering support.

If the Gerry and Kate McCann had taken your three year old child/grandchild on this Portuguese vacation and ... it is your precious loved one is now missing ...

1.  Would you be compassionate/understanding regarding the premeditated  choice to leave your precious child/grandchild unattended ... out of earshot ... defenceless in the face of unseen dangers?  Would you attempt to justify this choice?

2.  Would you believe ... in the process of elimination ... that Kate and Gerry McCann should be above suspicion ... would you contend that the PLE investigation was corrupt because the McCanns were the primary focus of interest?

I am sincere ... I truly desire to know if perspectives regarding Kate and Gerry McCann would differ if the victim in this incident was your precious child/ grandchild who was entrusted to their care and ... not Madeleine.

I always attempt to put myself in the place of the victim and ... from there prioritize the avenues where justice may have an opportunity to prevail.  In the Madeleine McCann case ... I consider the immediate and primary focus should be Kate and Gerry McCann ... the last persons in their daughter's company.

Janet
     

me too 

[Tamikosmom]

I have the utmost respect for you Janet, and I'd really like to know why you think the McCanns are guilty. You have excellent detective skills, and I have read your posts on BFN as well. I may not see it, but that doesn't mean you don't. Just what is it about them that makes you suspicious?

pdh3 ... you requested my perspective ... here goes!   

The ALE distanced Paulus and Joran ... the last persons in the company of Natalee Holloway.  This LE focused suspicion on the security guards ... Columbian/Venzuela sex trade ... MB students ... Natalee's mother ... in an attempt to distance their own from implication.  Outright corruption!!

The PLE distanced suspicion from the McCanns for three months ... the last persons observed in the company of their daughter ... by focusing attention on Robert Murat ... pedophile rings operating inside and outside of Porugual while giving a free pass to the McCanns and their friends.  Outright incompetence!

However ... three months into the investigation ... the PLE did get their act together and with the requested assistance of the British focused the investigation where it should have been immediately following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann ... the parents ... the last persons observed in her company.

I am not implying that ... in process of elimination ... investigations should not pursue all avenues in their quest for truth but ... the immediate primary focus should always be the last persons in the company of the missing person.

pdh3 ... I concede that I do not know if the McCanns were involved in the disappearance of their daughter following an unfortunate incident with unintended consequences but ... I do not believe they are above suspicion.  As they were the last persons in the company of their daughter prior to the alleged abduction ... I believe they should be the primary focus of suspicion ... the exact reason I believe that Joran, Deepak and Satish should be the primary forcus of suspicion in the Natalee Holloway case.

Janet

[pdh3]

Very interesting post Janet! Thanks for you response.
I don't think they should have been excluded from suspicion either...an investigation should start with the parents of a missing child as young as Madeleine, and then broaden in an ever widening circle if the parents are cleared.This was not done with Maddie's case, and I'm afraid it may be too late now.

[SteveDinMD]

Very interesting post Janet! Thanks for you response.
I don't think they should have been excluded from suspicion either...an investigation should start with the parents of a missing child as young as Madeleine, and then broaden in an ever widening circle if the parents are cleared.This was not done with Maddie's case, and I'm afraid it may be too late now.

pdh3:  The kind of sequential investigation you describe would be ill-advised in the case of a possible abduction, like this one, where time is of the essence.  If one were to defer lines of investigation into theories of third party abduction until (and unless) the parents and others more closely affiliated with the missing child had been definitively cleared of any involvement, one would have implicitly discarded any hope of recovery or of aprehending the culprits if such theory were correct.  One's investigation, moreover, would be at risk of being locked in to a presumption of parental guilt as crucial evidence to the contrary would increasingly be lost owing to delays in its collection.  Prudence dictates that ALL avenues of investigation be vigorously pursued simultaneously.  In Madeline's case, NO lines of investigation were seriously pursued until it was too late, and the police were left with no viable suspects (other than perhaps the parents and their friends) and few prospects for developing further leads.  Now we're left with the current state of affairs where the Portugese authorities are, to borrow a phrase, "stuck on stupid," continuously reinvestigating the McCanns -- who are almost certainly innocent -- because police nonfeasance from early on has made it nearly impossible to develop alternate suspects to consider on the basis of evidence rather than conjecture. 

[Puzzler]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=487239&in_page_id=1770

Madeleine: Investigation boss recruits CSI-style murder specialists to crack case
By VANESSA ALLEN - Last updated at 17:10pm on 12th October 2007
Paulo Rebelo: Summoned his own men from Lisbon to double the size of the team looking for Madeleine.
The new head of the Madeleine McCann investigation is to bring in a team of CSI-style murder specialists to crack the case, he has revealed.
Paulo Rebelo, Portugal's second most senior policeman, has summoned his own men from Lisbon to double the size of the team working on the hunt for the four-year-old.
He told detectives he wants a root-and-branch review of every aspect of the floundering five-month investigation.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they welcomed the move, which British experts said should have been done months ago.
Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "It is fresh eyes, for which they are grateful.
"The news is welcomed by the family. If they are experts in homicides then hopefully they can eliminate them as suspects."
But friends of the couple said they wanted to see the inquiry refocus on the search for a missing girl, and not as a murder hunt.
Mr Rebelo, 45, who is the deputy national director of the Policia Judiciaria, took over the reins of the investigation on Wednesday.
He met his new team in the PJ's regional headquarters in Portimao on Thursday, and told them that four new detectives would join them over the weekend.
The Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha said the new recruits were hand-picked from the elite national directorship of the PJ.
They included the two murder experts, who have been told to review the entire case to look for "loose ends" and suggest lines of inquiry which have been overlooked.
Such reviews are routine in major investigations in Britain, including the Soham and Sarah Payne inquiries, and can trigger vital break-throughs.
Mark Williams-Thomas, a former Surrey Police child protection officer, said the new approach was "textbook".
Welcome: Kate McCann, pictured yesterday taking the twins for a walk, and husband Gerry are pleased at the changes in the investigation.
"For a long time now the investigation has lacked direction and impetus and the new inquiry head has brought that back," he said.
"You wonder why they didn't bring him in earlier. This shows there is some proper detective work going on."
The arrival of Mr Rebelo and his four colleagues has more than doubled the number of officers working on the Madeleine case.
The four new officers have been tasked with reading the 4,000-page dossier of evidence presented to the public prosecutor after the McCanns were made official suspects.
Mr and Mrs McCann, both aged 39, have been told that results of forensics tests could be handed over to Portuguese police on Monday.
Their spokesman Mr Mitchell said they were prepared to travel back to Portugal if needed, but said they remained confident that their arguido status would be lifted.
He said: "Our understanding is that this next batch of results will just fill in the details of what they have already got."
Meanwhile the Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas continued its claims that Mr McCann was not Madeleine's natural father, despite a threat of legal action.
It said the girl's biological father had been identified by police in Britain as a man in Birmingham, but said police had not contacted him as he was known to have been in Britain when Madeleine vanished on May 3.
The allegations have been strenuously denied by the McCanns, who are considering legal action against the newspaper.

[bleachedblack]

The more I read about this case, the less I understand. All the hypothesis and finger pointing.....latest-7 children slept in the McCann's flat!  If there was indeed blood found on the wall, I don't claim to know who it belonged to. Now, with the possibility of 7 children in the room together?  ......and none report an intruder  (granted I don't know the age of the children, but as we have seen in other cases it doesn't take an age much greater than 2 to mutter something to the effect " Mommy hit the table, Mommy's in the rug". Such an utterance about an intruder at the flat would not have been known prior to this late date? )

What seems most logical to me is that Madeleine likely awoke from her sleep, and left the apartment in search of her parents. Some perv near there saw the opportunity to snatch her......and did just that. The PLE need to turn their focus back to the people in the immediate vicinity of the resort and stop focusing on the McCann's MO

[pdh3]

Very interesting post Janet! Thanks for you response.
I don't think they should have been excluded from suspicion either...an investigation should start with the parents of a missing child as young as Madeleine, and then broaden in an ever widening circle if the parents are cleared.This was not done with Maddie's case, and I'm afraid it may be too late now.

pdh3:  The kind of sequential investigation you describe would be ill-advised in the case of a possible abduction, like this one, where time is of the essence.  If one were to defer lines of investigation into theories of third party abduction until (and unless) the parents and others more closely affiliated with the missing child had been definitively cleared of any involvement, one would have implicitly discarded any hope of recovery or of aprehending the culprits if such theory were correct.  One's investigation, moreover, would be at risk of being locked in to a presumption of parental guilt as crucial evidence to the contrary would increasingly be lost owing to delays in its collection.  Prudence dictates that ALL avenues of investigation be vigorously pursued simultaneously.  In Madeline's case, NO lines of investigation were seriously pursued until it was too late, and the police were left with no viable suspects (other than perhaps the parents and their friends) and few prospects for developing further leads.  Now we're left with the current state of affairs where the Portugese authorities are, to borrow a phrase, "stuck on stupid," continuously reinvestigating the McCanns -- who are almost certainly innocent -- because police nonfeasance from early on has made it nearly impossible to develop alternate suspects to consider on the basis of evidence rather than conjecture. 

Steve -
This is exactly the kind of investigation that was done in the Susan Smith case by the Sheriff, and is the recommended method of investigation in the US. I did not say other leads would not be pursued, because that was done in Susan Smith's case as well. It all has to do with the age of the children, and the circumstances of the case. You cannot presume that the parents are innocent when the kids are so young and in their direct care. They have to be investigated and cleared while other leads are being pursued. What LE in Portugal did was pursue other leads, then come back to the parents when nothing else panned out, and they were faced with an investigation going nowhere. They did it backwards.
Sheriff Wells was complimented by other LE officials for leading the investigation in Susan Smith's case in exactly the correct manner, and the "ever widening circle" is how his investigation was described at the time. His department investigated Susan while checking out her story, and investigating the possibility of a car jacking. If LE in Portugal had done this, we might know what happened to Madeleine by now, or at least the parents could have been eliminated as suspects, or still be included if the evidence lead them there.
It's not exactly a sequential investigation method, but it is was very effective in that case, and in many others. It is used in most cases of missing children when the children disappear while under the care of a family member or other caregiver. LE must first check out the story given by the person caring for the child, and go from there.

[SteveDinMD]

What seems most logical to me is that Madeleine likely awoke from her sleep, and left the apartment in search of her parents. Some perv near there saw the opportunity to snatch her......and did just that. The PLE need to turn their focus back to the people in the immediate vicinity of the resort and stop focusing on the McCann's MO

You propose an entirely plausible scenario.  It's also theoretically possible that Madeline wandered off and fell down a storm drain, or met with some other misfortune.  Despite their reasonableness, there is nevertheless no indication that PLE even considered, let alone investigated, these and other possible theories. 

[pdh3]

What seems most logical to me is that Madeleine likely awoke from her sleep, and left the apartment in search of her parents. Some perv near there saw the opportunity to snatch her......and did just that. The PLE need to turn their focus back to the people in the immediate vicinity of the resort and stop focusing on the McCann's MO

You propose an entirely plausible scenario.  It's also theoretically possible that Madeline wandered off and fell down a storm drain, or met with some other misfortune.  Despite their reasonableness, there is nevertheless no indication that PLE even considered, let alone investigated, these and other possible theories. 

I wonder if LE in Portugal asked the parents if Maddie had a tendency to wander? And how thorough was their initial search? Surely all abandoned buildings, cars and storm drains were searched in the first few days.

[SteveDinMD]

What seems most logical to me is that Madeleine likely awoke from her sleep, and left the apartment in search of her parents. Some perv near there saw the opportunity to snatch her......and did just that. The PLE need to turn their focus back to the people in the immediate vicinity of the resort and stop focusing on the McCann's MO

You propose an entirely plausible scenario.  It's also theoretically possible that Madeline wandered off and fell down a storm drain, or met with some other misfortune.  Despite their reasonableness, there is nevertheless no indication that PLE even considered, let alone investigated, these and other possible theories. 

I wonder if LE in Portugal asked the parents if Maddie had a tendency to wander? And how thorough was their initial search? Surely all abandoned buildings, cars and storm drains were searched in the first few days.

Frankly, I don't share your confidence in PLE.  My guess is that they did NOTHING in the expectation (hope?) that Madeline would soon return on her own or be brought back by kind strangers.  After that scenario failed to materialize, and after it was too late to begin a proper investigation and with the world media focused on them, they scrambled to round up a convenient group of foreign "arguidos" in the hopes of pacifying the press and avoiding any admission that Madeline might have been abducted by a local or someone affiliated with one of their resorts.  When that failed, they attacked the McCanns and their friends in order to force an end to the case and its damaging media coverage. 

[MuffyBee]

What about this guy? 
Madeleine: 'Arguido' Murat breaks his silence as police bring in CSI-style murder expert
Last updated at 09:59am on 13th October 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=487354&in_page_id=1811
(snipped)
"Five months down the line, he hasn't heard from the police for three months, and there's no evidence against him," she said.

"He hasn't seen his daughter for over five months.

"He has no finances now, all his savings are gone and he needs to rebuild his life, I mean, his life is on hold."
Mr Murat, whose father was Portuguese, was taken in for questioning by police 11 days after the four-year-old disappeared on May 3.

Police searched the family home Casa Liliana, and its garden using specialist sniffer dogs after suspicions were aroused over his interest in the case.

Mr Murat, 33, had earlier offered his services as a translator to police working on the case and became a familiar sight around the crime scene in the days after Madeleine's disappearance.

After his first night of questioning at the local headquarters of the Policia Judiciaria in the town of Portimao he was declared an arguido.

Although they took him in for further questioning later and carried out new searches over the summer, he has never been formally arrested or charged.

Madeleine's parents Gerry and Kate were themselves declared arguidos last month after tests on DNA samples found in their hire car were taken as suggesting Madeleine's body had been transported in the vehicle.

Like Mr Murat, they strenuously deny any involvement.
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If he is taken off the list of suspects, will anyone help him?  No rally's, no Pope, no benefactors?  Maybe he's collateral damage?  Will the McCann's use some of the money collected to help him with his expenses?  Yes, the McCann's daughter is missing and I am so sad about it.  I don't know yet how, why or who did this.  But what about this guy?