Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Anna]

beachedblack ... the vehicle was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie disappeared.

My original questions stand:

Where would the "powers that be" in Portuguese investigation obtain Madeleine's DNA to plant in the apartment letted by the McCanns for the British forensic team to discover and ... where would the "powers that be" in the Portugese investigation obtain Madeleine's "dried" DNA to plant in the vehicle rented by her parents for the British forensic team to discover??

Janet

Where, indeed!  You can have blood smears from a corpse if the skin is broken, say during transportation, or contact with sharp objects or edges that would lacerate the skin.  Since the heart would not be pumping, it would be minimal amounts but certainly there.

I don't know what to think.  Need more information.  Maybe the PLE are just saying all this to try to trick the parents into confessing.  But they would not have blood/DNA samples to plant to be found later.

The only remote possibility I can think of is who had the rental car just before the parents rented it, at the time Madeleine went missing?  Could the person who took her have rented the car just prior and they be responsible for the blood in the car?

Grasping at straws but I do not want to think the parents are guilty of any wrong doing, just too awful to think about.

[Rob]

Yes Janet -  that is the connection and theory.

I'm unable to believe at this time that these three have committed what the police have alleged based on their (PLE) rumors alone. I need hard evidence that this is the correct hypothesis. I realize that the Doctor was interviewed and he and his wife have both proclaimed their innocence.

Janet- the PLE has been back and forth between the McCanns, an unknown abductor, the McCanns friends and Robert Murat and his associates over the last few months. It is all so cyclical. Next week they may be back to Mr. Murat.

Until I see what they have, I am still supporting Kate and Gerry. And even then I may support them as I do not trust the PLE one bit. They have had everyone running in circles for over 4 months... that's no way to run an investigation.

The PLE blew this from day one and are trying to back track their own mistakes at the expense of a grieving family.

This was truly a mickey mouse investigation... why does anyone think it changed all of a sudden? As the British said last night in regards to the DNA - where the PLE goes with it will be up to them.

Just to add ... when the PLE had nothing they got the Dutch and their psychic foundation involved - this filled the vacuum while the PLE was jerkin everyone around.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294571,00.html

LONDON  —  A firm of private detectives that hired psychics to help the hunt for Madeleine McCann is being investigated by police for allegedly breaking Portuguese laws on criminal cases.

The company, Strongwood, claims that it is being funded by donations from more than 100,000 people to carry out inquiries into the disappearance of Madeleine from her bed in the resort of Praia da Luz 114 days ago.

However, Portuguese detectives have contacted officers in the Netherlands complaining that the company has broken laws that mean that only police can investigate criminal cases.

Strongwood, which is registered with the Dutch Ministry of Justice as a private investigation company, said that it had received donations totalling more than a team of three private detectives, an expert in children with a “special disorders” and a person with “special abilities” to Praia da Luz at end of last month.

A report of its findings concluded that Madeleine could have died before 7p.m. on the night that she went missing. Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have insisted that she was alive at 9 p.m. The company also claimed that the child was killed in her apartment before being taken to a beach in a white van where her body was dumped.
<snipped>

me speaking here - I hope this all is not predicated on the words of Dutch psychics. We all know the Dutch track record in these matters.

[bleachedblack]

Tamikosmom wrote;

beachedblack ... the vehicle was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie disappeared.

My original questions stand:

Where would the "powers that be" in Portugese investigation obtain Madeleine's DNA to plant in the apartment letted by the McCanns for the British forensic team to discover and ... where would the "powers that be" in the Portugese investigation obtain Madeleine's "dried" DNA to plant in the vehicle rented by her parents for the British forensic team to discover??

Janet

But I wonder if this is the truth?

[bleachedblack]

Next  we will hear is that PLE has appointed a narcotics cop to take over investigation of the case.

[Rob]

Rob I would tend to agree with you. It does appear that the police are trying to make something happen like a bluff. Side so there doctor friend also left a child back in another room? Pretty disturbing.

Hi Kiwi - nice to make your acquaintance. Right, three doctors, three from England's most prestigious schools and not one has the forth-sight to save their reputation, job, and family?

I don't get it. This is a huge gamble on the part of the PLE if they are incorrect. They will never be taken seriously again should this all collapse on them.

They bluffed Kate, the target, and she apparently did not blink. I think after 128 days if someone was guilty they would crack. These are not professional killers and would have told the authorities if indeed they were involved.

Hardcore or innocent -  you decide.

[klaasend]

The father of missing British toddler Madeleine McCann has been named a suspect in her disappearance, his Portuguese lawyer says

http://www.cnn.com/

[FoolsGold]

Okay. The Portugese cops think that while undergoing very close scrutiny by the police, friends and the press the parents were lugging a corpse around with them through all those airports and then loaded the corpse into a car 25 days after the killing.

Next theory please?

[klaasend]

The father of missing British toddler Madeleine McCann has been named a suspect in her disappearance, his Portuguese lawyer says

http://www.cnn.com/

Gerry McCann has been declared an arguido, or formal suspect, by police investigating the disappearance of his daughter Madeleine, his lawyer Carlos Pinto de Abreu has said.

Both the parents of missing Madeleine McCann are now formal suspects in her disappearance.

Full Story

http://news.sky.com/skynews/home

[Rob]

The father of missing British toddler Madeleine McCann has been named a suspect in her disappearance, his Portuguese lawyer says

http://www.cnn.com/

Klaas, I hope I am wrong, but I believe the request for the Doctor to return from Britain is next.

This is prolly already in the works.

[klaasend]

The father of missing British toddler Madeleine McCann has been named a suspect in her disappearance, his Portuguese lawyer says

http://www.cnn.com/

Klaas, I hope I am wrong, but I believe the request for the Doctor to return from Britain is next.

This is prolly already in the works.

Rob - tell me more about this doctor, I haven't followed the case close enough.  Was this someone that was on vacation with their group?

[Kiwi]

Okay. The Portugese cops think that while undergoing very close scrutiny by the police, friends and the press the parents were lugging a corpse around with them through all those airports and then loaded the corpse into a car 25 days after the killing.

Next theory please?

I don't think they did it. But the only way to avoid the above scrutiny would be to move the child the day before, and I don't know who was the last to see her? or when?

[Rob]

The father of missing British toddler Madeleine McCann has been named a suspect in her disappearance, his Portuguese lawyer says

http://www.cnn.com/

Klaas, I hope I am wrong, but I believe the request for the Doctor to return from Britain is next.

This is prolly already in the works.

Rob - tell me more about this doctor, I haven't followed the case close enough.  Was this someone that was on vacation with their group?

Yes he was. As Janet point out, he was with the McCanns and is an close associate. His name is Doctor O'Brien if I am not mistaken. He is the person alleged to have been wiretapped and self implicated. He denies all charges and implications. He insists he is innocent and stayed in Portugal to offer moral support for the McCanns, his good friends. The McCanns appear to be 10 -15 years younger than the Doctor. He seems to be a mentor to Gerry or Kate, not sure which one. All Doctors have mentors.

Greta just said she believes the plea deal is bogus... why offer Kate 2 years if they have the evidence to convict. Greta on BOR.

[robots]

Okay. The Portugese cops think that while undergoing very close scrutiny by the police, friends and the press the parents were lugging a corpse around with them through all those airports and then loaded the corpse into a car 25 days after the killing.

Next theory please?

I don't think they did it. But the only way to avoid the above scrutiny would be to move the child the day before, and I don't know who was the last to see her? or when?

moved earlier... 

[Rob]

I just requested Carpe to capture Greta is he is able.

[Kiwi]

Unfortunately, moving anything earlier seems to help the bad folks.

[klaasend]

Posted in the Mirror UK forum:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=10485

PTLW78

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 1

 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:25 am    Post subject: Legal Comments   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I’m a Portuguese citizen. Incidentally, I am also a lawyer. While trying to remain unbiased, neutral and dispassionate, I thought it could be helpful to throw some light on:

i) the allegation that PJ has offered a deal to Mss. McCann in exchange of a confession; and
ii) the fact that no charges have been brought against Mr. and Mss. McCann

For the sake of objectivity and neutrality, facts are in ALL CAPS, my opinion in normal caps, so that you can distinguish the text of the law from my views on the case.

1 – PJ HAS NOT LEGAL POWERS TO SETTLE OR OFFER DEALS WITH CRIME SUSPECTS. IN FACT, NOR EVEN THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR HAS SUCH POWERS. ONLY THE MAGISTRATE THAT JUDGES THE CASE IN A COURT OF LAW CAN DETERMINE THE PUNISHMENT /PENALTY APPLICABLE. I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE QUITE DIFFERENT TO THE COMMON LAW JURISDICTIONS, NAMELY THE UK AND THE US.

This is common knowledge in Portugal. One of the first things taught in law schools is that our criminal system is not like in the (American) movies. The police do not cut deals. Nor the Public Prosecutor has the power to offer deals and settle with suspects. Only the Judge can determine the penalty. It is actually quite common for the judge to deviate from the accusation and proposed penalty presented by the Public Prosecutor (for example, the Public Prosecutor charges someone with murder and asks for a 20 years jail penalty but the Judge, while finding the defendant guilty, condemns him/her to serve only 18 years).

This is such a basic principle that no detective would try to pull this stunt with a lawyer present.

2 – ONLY THE CONFESSION MADE DURING A COURT HEARING IS LEGALLY VALID (SECTION 314 OF THE CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE).

It seems unlikely that the PJ would push for a confession that it is not legally valid. Of course that a confession would be a huge breakthrough in the investigations as it would rule out other scenarios and allow the police and the Public Prosecutor to build a case, but if Mss. McCann later (i.e., during the court hearing) denies what she has confessed, the originally confession cannot be considered by the Judge.

On a side note, this is why the questioning at the PJ is not recorded. Contrarily to what a British gentleman was saying this afternoon on SkyNews, the reason for not recording the interview is not archaism or lack of technical means – it is actually to protect the suspect against something he/she may later regret.

3 – PJ DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO CHARGE MR. AND MSS. MCCANN. THE PJ ROLE IS TO CONDUCT AN INQUIRY AND PUT TOGETHER THE FACTS. BASED ON THE FACTS GATHERED BY THE PJ, IT IS UP TO THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR TO CHARGE (OR NOT TO CHARGE) THE SUSPECTS. THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR HAS BETWEEN 6 AND 12 MONTHS (DEPENDING ON THE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE ALLEGED CRIME) FROM THE MOMENT ON WHICH THE SUSPECT IS NAMED “ARGUIDO” TO DECIDE IF IT PRESENTS OR DISMISS CHARGES – SECTION 276 OF THE CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE.

It seems that the focuses being placed on the fact that no charges have been brought against Mr. and Mss. McCann is deliberately trying to pass the message that the evidence is weak. Well, I don’t know if the evidence is weak or strong. What I do know is that from a procedural point of view there could never be charges at this stage of the process.

*

Personal feelings now. I am trained to and effectively believe that anyone is innocent until proven guilty and I am therefore applying this principle to my personal assessment of this case. I also have no problems admitting ,not I feel ashamed or inferior to acknowledge, that the British police is technologically more advance that the Portuguese and probably more experienced – it is a matter of scale. What I would expect from a serious corporation such as SkyNews – on which I have relied on many different occasions for information – is neutral coverage of the story. I would expect SkyNews to investigate Portuguese law before giving any credibility to the hysteric reaction and false accusations made by the members of Mr. and Mss. McCann family. They went to the point of cutting the Portuguese lawyer out the air.

The sister of Mr. McCann is lying. Such lye seems to be an attempt to make the PJ look desperate. Having been on the other side of PJ interviews many times before, I can assure that they never get desperate.

As a lawyer, I found the gentlemen that commented on this case for SkyNews during the afternoon unprofessional and incompetent. As a man, I think they are plain i*****.

I am not an English native speaker and I apologize for the grammatical and language errors, but I hope this helps clarifying the legal implications of what happened today.
 

[Anna]

But it is a British team with a British Spaniel Cadaver Dog collecting the evidence where it was examined in a British lab. 

How did the Portuguese Police get these British technicians to do these things?

I am going to hold my nose and watch Greta for the first time in ages to get more information.

Must have more information before any conclusions can be drawn.

.

[Rob]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=TYAWILQEBSASFQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/09/07/nmaddy1007.xml

Kate and Gerry McCann named as suspects

By Caroline Gammell in Portimao and Gordon Rayner
Last Updated: 1:27am BST 08/09/2007

Kate and Gerry McCann could be charged with the "accidental" killing of their daughter Madeleine after Portuguese police challenged them directly whether they were behind the toddler's disappearance.
# The claims and the case for the defence
# Shocked response from friends and family
# Full coverage: The search for Madeleine McCann

In an extraordinary twist, Mrs McCann's family said detectives now believed she caused the four-year-old's death in their holiday apartment, then hid the body before returning a month later to dispose of it.
    
Shortly after midnight, Mr McCann emerged from the police station with his lawyer Carlos Pinto de Abreu who read out a short statement.

He said: "Kate and Gerry McCann have today both been declared arguidos with no bail conditions and no charges have been brought against them. The investigation continues."

Mr McCann stared straight ahead as his suspect status was announced and refused to answer questions from awaiting journalists. A crowd which had been attending a concert in the town square earlier listened to the announcement and several people gasped audibly.

A family spokesman David Hughes said Mr McCann had been asked the same questions as his wife but he refused to comment on when the couple would return to Britain. Mr McCann was driven away in a silver Audi to return to his wife.

It was claimed that police had offered Mrs McCann a "deal" of a two-year jail sentence if she confessed and told them where the body was.

The astonishing developments followed the discovery of blood in a car the McCanns hired four weeks after Madeleine's disappearance 128 days ago, which police believe proves Mrs McCann killed Madeleine.

The allegation was dismissed as "ludicrous" by Mrs McCann's husband Gerry, while her parents said the police investigation had become "a joke".

Mrs McCann was declared a formal suspect, or "arguida" by police, who spent a second day questioning her in the Algarve town of Portimao before releasing her without charge five hours later.

Mrs McCann has been warned by her lawyer Carlos Pinto de Abreu to be prepared for the fact she might now be arrested and charged.

A family spokeswoman, Justine McGuinness, revealed that Mrs McCann had been asked outright if she had killed her daughter, and was "shocked and angry" at the allegation, which she emphatically denied.

Miss McGuinness said: "They believe they have evidence to show that in some way she's involved in the death of her daughter, which of course is completely ludicrous.

"They have suggested that blood has been found in a hire car that they hired 25 days after Madeleine was taken. How on earth could you hide a body for that long? We are in a hot climate.

"When this was put to Kate she was very taken aback. It was the first time she had heard the allegation and she actually swore at police."

Mr McCann's sister, Philomena, later revealed the plea bargain offered by detectives.
    
She said: "They tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer, which was 'if you say you killed Madeleine by accident and then hid her and then disposed of the body, then we can grant you a two-year jail sentence or even less. You may get off because people feel sorry for you'."

According to one report, the police asked Mrs McCann, a doctor, whether she had sedated her daughter, leading to speculation that detectives think she may have accidentally given Madeleine an overdose.

Mr McCann, 39, expressed his own frustration in his blog on the Madeleine campaign website, saying: "We will fight this all the way."

Police had told Mrs McCann before she went for questioning that they had 22 "difficult" questions to put to her further to the information she had given them during 11 hours of questioning on Thursday.

Whistles and jeers mingled with shouts of support as she arrived at the police station today carrying Madeleine's favourite toy, cuddle cat.

[Tamikosmom]

Yes he was. As Janet point out, he was with the McCanns and is an close associate. His name is Doctor O'Brien if I am not mistaken. He is the person alleged to have been wiretapped and self implicated. He denies all charges and implications.  He insists he is innocent and stayed in Portugal to offer moral support for the McCanns, his good friends.  The McCanns appear to be 10 -15 years younger than the Doctor.  He seems to be a mentor to Gerry or Kate, not sure which one.  All Doctors have mentors.

Rob ... this article from a British publication implies that as of August 24, 2007 ... Dr Russell O’Brien had left Portugal and ... returned to Britain.

Also ... the close relationship that this man has with the McCanns could possibly explain a possible connection ... a possible connection after the fact.  The opportunity did present itself when Dr. O'Brien left the tappa bar for "part of the evening" and ... then there are the alleged wiretaps.

Hey ... I do not know if the the McCanns are involved in the the disappearance of their daughter but ... the McCanns were the last known persons with Maddie which implies that ... in the process of elimination ... they should not be above suspicion ... they must be investigated.

Is this not the reason that the majority on this forum becomes enraged when the ALE attempts to distance Joran van der Sloot from implication in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway and ... focus suspicion on Beth ... Jug ... MB Students ... security guards?  None of these persons were the last persons observed leaving Carlos' and Charlies' with the 18 year old American citizen ... the 18 year old American citizen who was never seen again.

Janet


Madeleine McCann's parents told not to leave
By Richard Edwards in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 3:10am BST 24/08/2007

<snipped>

Mr Sousa also played down reports that a new suspect was about to be arrested in Britain, dismissing them as old speculation.

It referred to Dr Russell O’Brien, a friend of the McCanns, who has become the latest victim of a smear campaign in a Portuguese newspaper, which claimed he would be arrested yesterday in connection to the disappearance.

He hit back and told friends: “I will robustly defend my reputation. I have not been contacted by the Portuguese police and there has been no mention of any impending arrest or need to return to Portugal. The allegations made in Portuguese press are completely without foundation.

Dr O’Brien was dining with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared and spent part of the evening away from the table looking after his own daughter, who was sick …..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/21/nmaddy221.xml

[robots]

Dr O’Brien was dining with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared and spent part of the evening away from the table looking after his own daughter, who was sick …..




hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............. part of the evening AWAY

UH OH