Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Tamikosmom]

<snipped>

I agree the parents need to be questioned. BUT To me this reeks of Aruba. If Beth or Dave had been in Aruba when Natalee went missing they would be in the same boat. We have seen where they tried to blame the Mountainbrook students for Natalee's disappearance/demise.

<snipped>

Yapper

I am reposting a previous post that I submitted to this thread just in case you missed it.  The words express my position regarding why the discovery by the British forensic team of Maddie's DNA (blood) in the apartment and vehicle which were both letted by the McCanns.  I cannot comprehend how this DNA (blood) could have been planted.  Where would the "powers that be" in the Portugese investigation obtain this forensic evidence.

Janet


I do not know if the the McCanns are involved in the the disappearance of their daughter but ... the McCanns were the last known persons with Maddie which implies that ... in the process of elimination ... in the pursuant of justice for Maddie ... they should not be above suspicion ... they must be fully investigated.

Is this not the reason that the majority on this forum becomes enraged when the ALE and posters with an obvious Aruban agenda attempts to distance Joran van der Sloot from implication in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway and ... focus suspicion on Beth ... Jug ... MB Students ... security guards?  None of these persons were the last person observed leaving Carlos' and Charlies' with the 18 year old American citizen ... the 18 year old American citizen who was never seen again.

[Anna]

This is yet another example of how these secretive investigations just don't work.  If the police were more forthcoming with evidence, witnesses might be much more free to contribute.

No one wants to be the only person who claims to have seen something when a life is at stake.  If they knew others had also seen this, they might be more free to contribute.

The Dr O'Brien/Jan Tanner aspect is also rather odd behavior.  Were their rooms searched immediately?  Still too little known to even try to think of logical and likely possibilities or offer anything to an investigation.  Yet another negative for these secretive proceedings still carried out in some countries.  Why they do that is beyond my comprehension.

But I use a baby monitor for my Scottie puppies and I can hear the clock ticking in their room at the distance these parents were.  They cost about $30.  They have a light that will light up, several of them, the number that light up is directly related to the volume of noise in the room so they can be monitored with the sound actually turned off/down.  I have no small children nor grandchildren and know about these things so I am sure parents of small children do as well.  Maybe they don't work as well in congested areas.  Don't know.

The sad part is this is sounding like the PLE have reason to believe Madeleine is no longer alive.  What if she is?  Is no one looking for her now because of this turn in the investigation?

I have known of parents giving their children Benadryl to make them sleepy so this is done but is a form of abuse.  I do hope nothing like that was done to insure the children remained asleep.  7 p.m. is still daylight in most parts of the world and so rather early for a five year old to be sleeping soundly.  Could Madeleine have awakened and wandered away looking for her parents on her own and been abducted that way?

Just not enough known.

.

[festa]

"At the moment it is their intention to stay here. However, they would very much like to go home," the friend told Reuters.

Declaring the McCanns as suspects indicates police believe they may have been involved in a crime but does not necessarily mean they will be detained.

No conditions were imposed on the McCanns, which according to the couple's defense lawyer in Portugal means they are free to travel abroad.

"They can travel whenever and wherever they like," lawyer Carlos Pinto de Abreu told Reuters, adding that the McCanns could remain at their home in England if they chose to do so while the investigation continues.

-----------------

But Abreu said he had no idea how long the Madeleine case would take to be concluded in a country with serious bureaucratic problems and delays in its justice system.

Portuguese weekly Expresso on Saturday cited legal experts as saying it could take at least one year.

Police changed their line of investigation after receiving results this week of forensic tests on evidence collected by Portuguese and British experts from various sites including the holiday apartment from which Madeleine vanished.

McGuinness said Kate had told her that police found blood in a car hired by the couple but there was no confirmation that it was Madeleine's.

http://tinyurl.com/2w3gm3

[NYC_lover]

I am very interesting in the role of daddy McCann. About why was he made at De Telegraaf about the anonymous letter. Hmhm very interesting in that..... so daddy McCann.... why was you mad? And get now the suspect role? hmhm....

[MuffyBee]

I am very interesting in the role of daddy McCann. About why was he made at De Telegraaf about the anonymous letter. Hmhm very interesting in that..... so daddy McCann.... why was you mad? And get now the suspect role? hmhm....

NYC ~  I didn't know about an anonymous letter.  Do you have any other information on that?  Thank you-Muffy.

[Tamikosmom]

It would be appreciated if someone could tell me what "the boot of the car" refers to.

Thank you.

Janet

++++++++++

Parents face kill charges
Charles Miranda in London
September 09, 2007 12:00am

Police claim the McCanns hid Madeleine's body for 25 days before using a hire car to dispose of the body.

Madeleine's DNA, including blood, was allegedly found in the boot of the car, on Mrs McCann's clothes and in the apartment ...

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22384393-954,00.html

[Anna]

Janet,

Isn't the boot of a car the trunk in British English?  The back part where you put luggage or groceries is what I mean.

And I think they call the hood the bonnet?  This is the part where the motor is located except on Volkswagens I believe.

Just from reading Agatha Christie I think this.

.

[Anna]

Do we already have a link to the BBC coverage?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6984836.stm

[robots]

Janet,

Isn't the boot of a car the trunk in British English?  The back part where you put luggage or groceries is what I mean.

And I think they call the hood the bonnet?  This is the part where the motor is located except on Volkswagens I believe.

Just from reading Agatha Christie I think this.

.

you are correct 

[Tamikosmom]

Janet,

Isn't the boot of a car the trunk in British English?  The back part where you put luggage or groceries is what I mean.

And I think they call the hood the bonnet?  This is the part where the motor is located except on Volkswagens I believe.

Just from reading Agatha Christie I think this.

.

Thanks Anna

My family roots are in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales.  I do believe I have heard that expression at sometime in my growing up years.

Thanks again.

Janet

[Rob]

Good Afternoon everyone...

I have had this piece here on my mind for quite some time. Technorati linked it when it was on my site and I still can not get this outta my mind. I expect there to be DNA from all kinds of sources in a rented flat, but for some reason this is a big sticking point for me..

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2606477.ece
 Mystery DNA found in Madeleine's bedroom
By Caroline Gammell, PA Chief Reporter in Madrid
Published: 02 June 2007

DNA from a mystery "sixth" person was found in the bedroom where Madeleine McCann was abducted, it was claimed today.

The Portuguese police, Policia Judiciara (PJ), have handed the sample to the national forensic laboratories, the Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal, according to local newspaper 24 Horas.

It does not match the DNA of Mr and Mrs McCann or their three children, the paper said.

Neither does the DNA match that of the only named suspect in the case, property developer Robert Murat, the paper added.

It quoted a source from the laboratory who said: "There is a new suspect, there is DNA which does not correspond to the family.

"It is an important step in the investigation but the truth is that the DNA collected does not have a name.

"In other words we cannot make any connection between the material collected and the suspects which we already have."

The newspaper said the DNA would be compared to all the evidence gathered by the PJ to see if a match could be found.

But, the source continued: "This does not mean that Robert Murat could not be incriminated but there is a person who was in the room who as yet it is not possible to identify.

"There are a lot of things already concluded but there are a lot of things still to do."

[Rob]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/08/maddy-the-possibilities-89520-19753205/

Maddy: The possibilities
Peter Kirkham, senior investigating officer on more than 20 murders, looks at four possible scenarios surrounding Maddy's disappearance.
By former Scotland Yard Detective Chief Inspector Peter Kirkham 08/09/2007


THEORY ONE

Madeleine was killed, her body hidden before being moved in the boot of the McCanns' silver Renault Scenic

DCI Kirkham: This is what police will have been quizzing Kate about. You don't have some one in for 11 hours to check a few points. Portuguese police apparently believe Madeleine was killed by accident. That fits with the suggestion that her body could have been hidden for a while. If murder is pre-meditated, the killer has worked out what to do with the body. If it happens without planning, most people panic and either run, cover up how the death happened or hide the body. Small bodies can easily disappear down holes and even if you do not know the area you will not have to go far to find somewhere to dump it. Later, if you think you are getting away with it, there may be a temptation to return and dispose of the body before the search widens or somebody stumbles across it.

THEORY TWO

Kate and Gerry are being framed by the Portuguese police for the death, as several close relatives have claimed

DCI Kirkham: This is highly unlikely. Although Portuguese police made early mistakes, it is big leap to accuse them of fit ting up the McCanns. The crucial evidence is the DNA recovered by British police and tested in a British laboratory. If Madeleine's body had been found it would be possible for somebody to take her blood and plant traces to implicate somebody. But without a body where is the supply of blood cells from Madeleine?

THEORY THREE

The samples found in the Renault Scenic are from cross-contamination or accidental transfer, possibly from the McCanns' belongings

DCI Kirkham: This would be possible if the DNA samples were so small they could be identified as coming from a particular cell - blood, hair or sweat. A police officer could have picked up Madeleine's DNA on gloves during one search and not changed them immediately after placing the sample in the evidence bag. However there is a big "But" here. If the British scientists found blood cells and enough of them to know it was significant, it makes it very unlikely they are there by chance. Blood is very strong circumstantial evidence especially with a DNA match when it's found where it shouldn't be.

THEORY FOUR

Madeleine was abducted and her attacker used the same hire car which the McCanns later hired

DCI Kirkham: This is the million-to-one defence which someone who has all the evidence stacked against them would use. The Portuguese police should be checking who had that Scenic before, tracing them and inter viewing to make sure they had no explanation for having Madeleine's blood. If I was in charge of this investigation I would do it, but only to double and triple-check the case.

[MuffyBee]

Good Afternoon everyone...

I have had this piece here on my mind for quite some time. Technorati linked it when it was on my site and I still can not get this outta my mind. I expect there to be DNA from all kinds of sources in a rented flat, but for some reason this is a big sticking point for me..

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2606477.ece
 Mystery DNA found in Madeleine's bedroom
By Caroline Gammell, PA Chief Reporter in Madrid
Published: 02 June 2007

DNA from a mystery "sixth" person was found in the bedroom where Madeleine McCann was abducted, it was claimed today.

The Portuguese police, Policia Judiciara (PJ), have handed the sample to the national forensic laboratories, the Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal, according to local newspaper 24 Horas.

It does not match the DNA of Mr and Mrs McCann or their three children, the paper said.

Neither does the DNA match that of the only named suspect in the case, property developer Robert Murat, the paper added.

It quoted a source from the laboratory who said: "There is a new suspect, there is DNA which does not correspond to the family.

"It is an important step in the investigation but the truth is that the DNA collected does not have a name.

"In other words we cannot make any connection between the material collected and the suspects which we already have."

The newspaper said the DNA would be compared to all the evidence gathered by the PJ to see if a match could be found.

But, the source continued: "This does not mean that Robert Murat could not be incriminated but there is a person who was in the room who as yet it is not possible to identify.

"There are a lot of things already concluded but there are a lot of things still to do."

Rob ~  the question about blood found on the wall and being announced as belonging to a man was discussed a bit here earlier.  Here is the post and there is a link to an article:
    
Re: British girl, Madeleine McCann, 4 in Portugal
« Reply #138 on: September 05, 2007, 02:35:31 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: MsVada on September 05, 2007, 01:21:52 PM
I hadn't realized until today that they say their was definately blood on the walls, and it was definately Madelines.  That is sad to hear.

I'm curious to the new developments on the case as far as the forensics go.....Maybe the parents do know more than they want everyone to believe.   Sad

MsVada I didn't know until today either that there was definitely blood on the walls and it was definitely Madeleine's.  I had read a couple weeks ago blood was found on the walls, but that it was supposedly a tourists from a different stay.  (and a man's blood, no less)   Here is the link to that: http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1590&id=1296452007  Maybe we were misled until all the tests could be made and more investigation completed before the information that it was Maddy's was released.  I'm wondering if it is all a part of a strategy from the police to find the killers.  I understand from another news article the parents and their friends on the trip are to be requestioned. It appears Madeleine isn't of this world any longer and it pains me to realize that.  I hope whomever harmed her and took her young life will answer for it.  Poor little angel, if she is indeed gone.

[Anna]

Janet,

Isn't the boot of a car the trunk in British English?  The back part where you put luggage or groceries is what I mean.

And I think they call the hood the bonnet?  This is the part where the motor is located except on Volkswagens I believe.

Just from reading Agatha Christie I think this.

.

you are correct 

Hi, Robots,

Long time no see!

I wish we had access to the forensic reports in this case.

[Rob]

Thank you Muffee!

There sure is a lot of DNA involved in this case... it's just hard to know what DNA is the right DNA and what is overlapping from earlier.

If the McCanns did in fact rent a car and that car had DNA of missing Madeleine in the boot, I wonder why they were not arrested and charged last night?

That seems to make it a slam dunk, should that all be true. Something must be missing here that we have no idea about.

The PLE either has a serious trump card waiting to be played, or they are scratching their heads wondering if Kate and Gerry may be in fact innocent...

something is not adding up - at least to me.

[Tamikosmom]

<snipped>


http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2606477.ece
 Mystery DNA found in Madeleine's bedroom
By Caroline Gammell, PA Chief Reporter in Madrid
Published: 02 June 2007

DNA from a mystery "sixth" person was found in the bedroom where Madeleine McCann was abducted, it was claimed today.

The Portuguese police, Policia Judiciara (PJ), have handed the sample to the national forensic laboratories, the Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal, according to local newspaper 24 Horas.

It does not match the DNA of Mr and Mrs McCann or their three children, the paper said.

Neither does the DNA match that of the only named suspect in the case, property developer Robert Murat, the paper added.

It quoted a source from the laboratory who said: "There is a new suspect, there is DNA which does not correspond to the family.

"It is an important step in the investigation but the truth is that the DNA collected does not have a name.

"In other words we cannot make any connection between the material collected and the suspects which we already have."

The newspaper said the DNA would be compared to all the evidence gathered by the PJ to see if a match could be found.

But, the source continued: "This does not mean that Robert Murat could not be incriminated but there is a person who was in the room who as yet it is not possible to identify.

"There are a lot of things already concluded but there are a lot of things still to do."

Rob ... do you know whether Dr. O'Brien or his partner Jane Tanner were questioned in the process of elimination ... in the pursuant of justice for Maddie?  Do you know if their apartment was searched?  When you consider that it was Dr. O'Brien who left the the tappa bar for "part of the evening" and ... Jane Tanner who claimed she saw "a dark-haired man carrying a child" ...

Janet

++++++++++++++++

The three crucial hours before the alarm was raised that Madeleine was missing
By NEIL SEARS
Last updated at 15:30pm on 8th September 2007

Another member of the group, Jane Tanner, took a turn around ten minutes later. She has told police that as she returned to the bar she saw a dark-haired man aged around 35 carrying a child. Again, she thought nothing of it.

A further detail from the evening is that the McCanns' friend Dr Russell O'Brien, 36, is understood to have left the table at some time after 9pm, to attend to his own ill daughter …..

Link


Madeleine McCann's parents told not to leave
By Richard Edwards in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 3:10am BST 24/08/2007

<snipped>

Dr O’Brien was dining with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared and spent part of the evening away from the table looking after his own daughter, who was sick. It is understood he shared duties with his partner Jane Tanner ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/21/nmaddy221.xml

[Rob]

Janet- thank you so much for raising this point.

I do not know if their flat was searched, however they were interview multiple times. Tanner believes that she saw Maddy being carried by an unidentified male, wrapped in a towel or blanket.

O'Brien seems to be lacking an alibi for his alleged departure from the Tapas.

Here's what I find very interesting, according to info, McCann friends - possibly Tanner and O'Brien - it has not be disclosed which 'friends' - and Robert Murat were called to the police station about a month ago and they had a sit down with the PLE, apparently, according to widely available reports, a shout match erupted as the 'friends' pointed the finger at Murat as claimed he was spotted outside the apartment on the night in question.

The police now seem to believe Murat. I don't know why.

Tanner has been consistent in her account. I am not sure what O'Brien has said as he has pretty much remained silent.

I find it hard to believe that Tanner and O'Brien are involved. How they have managed to remain under the radar and not cracked seems like a good stretch for me to accept.

Your thoughts???

 

[Tamikosmom]

This recent article implies that a connection has been established to a particular person in regards to the DNA detected in the McCann apartment that is not related to members of Maddie's family.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++++

New arrests expected in Madeleine McCann case
Thursday, September 06, 2007

Portuguese police could reportedly be set to make new arrests in the Madeleine McCann case within the next 48 hours.

Reports this morning say the DNA of a potential suspect has been identified from samples taken inside the holiday apartment where the missing four-year-old was staying with her parents.

The DNA is understood to have been found in an area where the individual should not have been.

Madeleine disappeared from the apartment in the Algarve 126 days ago.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/world/europe/article2936723.ece

[MuffyBee]

Madeleine McCann's Parents Want Out Of Portugal
Family Friend Says The Suspects Want To Clear Their Name
 CBS News Interactive: Out Of Sight, Missing Kids
AP) PRAIA DA LUZ, Portugal The parents of missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann want to leave Portugal as soon as possible and return to Britain to clear their names after Portuguese police named them as suspects in their daughter’s disappearance, a family friend said Saturday.

Clarence Mitchell said Gerry McCann told him that he and his wife expected clarification of their legal status within 48 hours. Their lawyer said late Friday police had declared the parents suspects in the girl’s May 3 disappearance.

“They are in broad agreement that they should get out as soon as they can,” Mitchell told The Associated Press by telephone from Britain. Whether Portuguese police allow them to leave is another matter, though their passports are not believed to have been seized up until now.

Mitchell said Kate and Gerry McCann had previously intended to leave southern Portugal, where they have stayed since their daughter vanished from a hotel room during a family vacation, on Sunday night.

“They are determined to prove this is a travesty ... and clear their names,” Mitchell said of the police allegations about their possible involvement.

http://keyetv.com/topstories/topstories_story_251101736.html

[Rob]

check this one out - seems to point to an abductor and the police know this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=477430&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

The full details of what happened on the night Madeleine McCann went missing are revealed today.

An investigation has pieced together the events on the night the four-year-old vanished from the family's apartment in Praia da Luz in Portugal almost four months ago.

It shows that the abductor is most likely to have struck between 9.05pm and 9.15pm. But her disappearance could not have been discovered until 10pm, because her family and friends did not enter the bedroom where she was sleeping until that time.

Gerry McCann checked on his daughter at 9.05pm and then neither he nor his wife Kate checked on their children again until 10pm when they discovered Madeleine was missing.

Although the McCanns always monitored their children every 30 minutes, the night Madeleine vanished a friend of the family Matthew Oldfield offered to check for them at 9.30pm.

But instead of entering the bedroom, it is understood he listened at the door, heard nothing and assumed everything was fine. In fact, Madeleine had almost certainly been snatched by then.

Fifteen minutes earlier, at 9.15pm, a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner, who had gone to check on her children, saw a man walking away from the Ocean Club resort carrying a small child. Ms Tanner later described the pyjamas the girl was wearing - matching the description of those worn by Madeleine on the night.

Mr Oldfield's failure to check inside the bedroom may have cost vital time in the search for the little girl.

The Mail's sister newspaper, the Evening Standard, has spoken to a series of sources close to the McCanns and their friends who have revealed details of the events on the night.

They have also revealed that the McCanns have been frustrated over not being allowed to speak publicly about the events on the night - because of Portuguese rules preventing witnesses talking about a criminal case.

But they have also expressed surprise that so much information has leaked out, apparently through Portuguese police.

They are adamant Madeleine was abducted and are angered by vicious smears - published by the Portuguese media - that the McCanns and their friends are somehow complicit in her disappearance.

One source says he believes Madeleine was taken between 9.05pm and 9.15pm and that the patio windows at the rear of the apartment had been shut but unlocked on the night so the McCanns could check on their children more easily.

He said: "It could not be anything other than abduction. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that the girl Jane Tanner saw being carried away was Madeleine."

Almost four months after Madeleine vanished police in Portugal appear to have little idea what happened.

A series of leaks claim Madeleine died in the apartment and that she may have been murdered or killed by accident, with the friends of the McCanns somehow implicated.

But the source is adamant that none of the dining companions was away from the table at the tapas bar long enough not only to kill the little girl but then to dump the body.

The source said: "If it was one of the friends then it would have to be all of them to ensure a cover up. That's just plain nonsense."

Friends now believe that Madeleine was targeted during the course of the week at the resort. She was taken on the sixth night of the McCanns' stay at the Ocean Club, allowing her abductor to observe the family's routine - easily achievable since the McCanns stuck to the same arrangements.

Each evening, said the source, they and their friends dined at the tapas bar about 100 yards from the holiday apartment, and they always checked on their children every 30 minutes - almost like clockwork.

The table at the tapas bar was booked every night at 8.30pm after the children had all gone to bed. There were nine diners each night - the McCanns, Rachael and Matthew Oldfield, Ms Tanner and her partner Russell O'Brien, and David and Fiona Payne and her mother Dianne Webster.

Anybody watching the McCanns' movements would have known that as soon as Mr McCann had left the apartment after the first check, there would have been half an hour in which to snatch the child.

On 3 May, said the source, the friends arrived at the restaurant later than usual after participating in a tennis event.

The McCanns were the first to arrive at the tapas bar at about 8.40pm - previous reports had falsely suggested they had been there since 7pm and that the group had drunk several bottles of wine. The source insists no more than three bottles had been drunk by the nine adults.

Mr McCann left the table at around 9.05pm to check on Madeleine and her siblings, returning a few minutes later. Each set of parents was responsible for checking their own children but at 9.30pm when the McCanns were to check again, Mr Oldfield offered to check on them instead.

Madeleine was not discovered missing for another half an hour.