Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[MuffyBee]

If the McCanns' hire car is vital evidence why were they still driving it up until they left?
By DANIEL BOFFEY and IAN GALLAGHER - More by this author » Last updated at 13:12pm on 9th September 2007

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480805&in_page_id=1770

[BlueKYGirl]

This story is so sad. I don't know if the McCanns did it or not (if they did cause Madeleine's death, I tend to think it wasn't on purpose). The thought of Kate sitting in Madeleine's room crying is heartbreaking to me, especially as I'm in the process of getting my own daughter's nursery ready for her arrival. I want so much for there to be a happy ending to this story, but that looks unlikely. I pray for justice for Madeleine, and if the McCanns are innocent I pray they'll somehow be exonerated.

[Anna]

Does anyone know if the papers being filed by the police today will remain secret or are they released to the public with this filing?

Also, I believe all members of the European Union have complete extradition agreements so that the British can't just refuse to return the McCanns should the Portuguese request they do so.


Since this Dr O'Brien is supposed to have only listened at the door of the bedroom where the children were sleeping, does anyone know when was the last time Madeliene was seen by someone other than the McCanns?  I would think earlier that day at some time but don't think I have seen a time or event for the last known sighting by others.

If no charges are brought, then it would seem the case against the McCanns is weak.

Would like to read the PLE evidence/case against them but whatcha wanna bet it's not allowed under their system. 

[A's Fever]

Madeleine McCann - The Key Questions  (Times Online)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece

This provides a good summary of the issues in this case.

[Anna]

What Fox has posted today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296186,00.html

Nothing new, just more of the same.

[Anna]

Is the UK Mirror much like our own National Enquirer?  They seem much more sensational in their reporting.  I would advise taking this with a grain of salt until confirmed by other sources.  I don't think one source would have this much detail and only they know these things.  If this is true, others will be reporting it soon.

----

'The police will get the results of new British tests in days. Then they will make their move..'
By Jon Clements, Crime Correspondent, And Ryan Parry 10/09/2007

   
Forensic tests carried out by British scientists on samples linked to Madeleine McCann's disappearance will be revealed in the next few days.

If the DNA results confirm the suspicions Portuguese police have against Gerry and Kate McCann, they could be charged with killing their daughter.

It comes as a source close to the investigation revealed officers threatened to remove the couple's two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie if Kate did not confess.

They were apparently told they could be charged, refused bail and have to wait up to a year for a trial - meaning the loss of their doctors' jobs and children.


A senior investigation source said: "Detectives questioned Kate and Gerry at length, they had plenty of time to put everything to them. Now they're working through their replies but would ideally like to see the rest of the forensics before making their next move."

Forensic Science Service experts in Birmingham are working on evidence recovered from multiple locations around Praia da Luz.

Claims over the weekend that the DNA test results were not as strong as initially thought have been dismissed by sources familiar with the investigation. Doubts were raised about the strength of the match taken from the McCanns' apartment because it had only 15 of Madeleine's unique 20 genetic markers.

But the Mirror can reveal that this exceeds the UK minimum standard of 10 markers before a profile can be linked to a crime scene. Sir Alec Jeffreys, who invented genetic fingerprinting, has said that "15 or 16" markers would give "99.9 per cent" certainty.

Traces of blood have been found in the boot lining of the McCanns' Renault hire car and hairs and other bodily fluids were detected elsewhere inside. Blood was also discovered on the floor of the McCanns' apartment. And apparently when blood was found inside the children's bedroom, two sniffer dogs - one trained to smell blood and the other corpses - reacted at the same spot.

Channel 4 News last night said blood from the four-year-old was found on a window sill in the apartment as well as on the floor. Analysis has already found the blood spots in the bedroom matched Madeleine's DNA profile. Senior investigation sources told the Mirror forensic evidence was only part of the case police were building against the McCanns.

The source said: "One individual piece of forensic evidence is never conclusive - but when you put two or three or four together they become significant.

"Describing these samples as "degraded or partial"' is missing the point.

"The Portuguese police have put them together and looked at them in the context of what other evidence they believe they have.

"That is why the police believe they are significant to the investigation."

Friends of the McCanns yesterday argued the traces could have been in the car because Madeleine's DNA would be on her sister and brother's clothes and toys.

But the insider said: "Transfer by accidental contact can happen with single DNA cells but when you are talking about a profile coming from blood or hair it is much less likely. An experienced scientist who has looked at many crime scenes will be able to interpret how it may or may not have got there.

"And while accidental contact transfer might explain one trace, when you have two or three from different locations the evidence becomes significant in the broader investigation."

After they were questioned at the weekend, the McCanns, both 39, asked officers to let British detectives review the case but were refused.

And yesterday Portuguese officers accused the McCanns of delaying the investigation by returning to Britain while under suspicion.

Spokesman Olegario da Sousa said: "It obviously complicates things."

15 out of 20 of Maddy's unique genetic markers found in sample

10 markers are enough for profile to be linked to a crime scene in UK

15 or 16 markers results in 99.9% certainty, says top genetics expert
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/t.....-19762037/

[Anna]

Corrected link for the above article.  The one I provided goes to a different article on this investigation, however.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/10/police-to-get-new-british-tests-in-days-89520-19762037/


So why didn't they just wait these few days until the other tests are returned from the British lab I wonder?

[klaasend]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283359,00.html

'Police Match Madeleine DNA To Hire Car'
Updated: 19:40, Monday September 10, 2007

Portuguese say they have found firm DNA evidence that the body of Madeleine McCann was in the family's hire car five weeks after she went missing, sources have told Sky News.
 
A policeman delivers flowers to the McCannsSky crime correspondent Martin Brunt said police felt the find was "damning".

He said the sample of blood sent to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham carried three matches of Madeleine's DNA.

"The samples that came back last week produced three matches to Madeleine's DNA," Brunt said.

"In the apartment police found one full match on a windowsill. That perhaps is not so important as Madeleine had been staying in the apartment for two weeks.

"In the hire car, five weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, police found a partial match.

"That might be explained by transfer onto clothes.

"But the crucial thing is that police have also found a second full match.

"Police say that is the most damning evidence that has been returned by the tests.

"It shows, as far as they are concerned, the presence of Madeleine's body in the car five weeks after she disappeared."

(snipped)

[klaasend]

FWIW - I find the above very hard to believe

[sharon]

FWIW - I find the above very hard to believe

Me, too.

[bleachedblack]

"In the apartment police found one full match on a windowsill. That perhaps is not so important as Madeleine had been staying in the apartment for two weeks.

Not so important? WTF? My first thought would be that maybe she was bleeding when someone exited the window with her? Did she get blood on any blankets or toys that might later have been taken into the rental car by the MCCann's? Why did it take so long to find this blood?
 It seems when nothing else panned out the focus was back on the McCann's and I don't buy it! What's with the partial match? Does that mean it was from one of the other children or a parent?
 

[MsVada]

Just going back and reading a little,  Maddie went missing on the 3rd of May,

 25 days later is May 28th
There is nothing significant in the news that day or the day before or after, other than the discussions about the mark in Maddie's eye.  There was no talk in the news of the Portugal investigators searching the rental car or doing anything around that time (at least nothing that I can locate in searching) 

I did read that the DNA that they found was not specified as blood,  it could have been from her sitting in the car with her family on vacation and she sneezed.  The only comment I read was that it was such a tiny piece of DNA.  so it wasn't a lot of whatever it was, because I did read they took apart the back seat of the car and swabbed everything.  (SUPPOSEDLY that is) 

I just don't buy into all of this scenario.  Too much spotlight on the parents for them to do this.

[MsVada]

DNA is not just blood, It could be saliva or skin cells. 

[SunnyinTX]

FWIW - I find the above very hard to believe

thanks Klaas...so do I.....there's a lot of info involving this disappearance that is very hard to believe

[Rob]

Good Afternoon Everyone.

IMO -This case is getting more and more bizarre everyday. And I think I now realize how the Salem Witch Hunts actually started.

Like most who post here, I have a real desire to see justice meted out. I am an advocate for those that need a voice... like you. I am just one small voice, although some will say I am a bigmouth.

Some case draw me in and I have a very hard time letting go. When I see an in-justice compounded with corruption I get interested. VERY INTERESTED. I realize that very little of what I do or who I email or call will result in anything. It's part of the way it is. It's frustrating at times, but none the less I wish there were justice for all.

As new technology arises, it needs to be tempered with checks and balances. All new technology starts out as a dream. A dream to improve lives, extend lives, to make life more enjoyable. The converse side of technology is the fact that sometime that technology is not tested, not applied correctly and mistakes are made. Then there is the whole side of the ethics behind a new technology.

In today's age of 'I want it now' some hear the letters DNA and automatically believe that someone is about to be freed from jail after being un-justly accused or someone is going to jail based on that DNA alone. That's not exactly accurate. DNA is a remarkable technology. It is not entirely without errors. Cross contamination occurs, samples degrade and innocent people are wrongly accused.

DNA coupled with other 'hard evidence' is usually enough to satisfy a jury of your peers. DNA and circumstantial evidence is not the 'be all end all' and although it takes us beyond a lone fingerprint it is still not the final proof that someone has committed a crime.

I have seen the Portuguese police department offer some 'slanted' explanations as to how and why the McCanns are now suspects.

Stranger things have happened in missing persons cases, but some of what I have heard so far takes me beyond the realm of believability.

I sincerely hope they know what they are doing. And a clearer picture emerges quickly. No one should have to live under the accusations that the McCanns are currently.

The PLE either has the evidence to make a formal arrest or they do not. There is no middle ground here.

again, my opinion....

[MuffyBee]

http://media.guardian.co.uk/radio/story/0,,2166289,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=4   
McCann radio debate slammed Leigh Holmwood
Monday September 10, 2007
snipped
Listeners outraged by a BBC Radio Five Live debate on Madeleine McCann forced the station to change a phone-vote on her disappearance.

[Anna]

From the above article, maybe this explains that this is a full match DNA found in the trunk and those are not from transfers.  This one is said to be from blood.  Skynews is a more reliable source than the Mirror I think:

A partial match of DNA could be explained by particles of hair or skin from Madeleine's toys being put in the car, Brunt said.

But he said the full DNA match that had been found was more difficult for the McCanns to explain.

"According to police, the sample could not have come from a transfer. Blood on a body that was five weeks old would not have produced such a confident and full match," he said.

---

The only other possible scenario other than parental involvement would be the party who had rented the car just before the McCanns being the culprits. 

I wonder if they have been checked out well.

.

[vms]

McCann twins may go into care
By Gordon Rayner, Nick Britten and Caroline Gammell
Last Updated: 7:30pm BST 10/09/2007

Kate and Gerry McCann’s two-year-old twins could be placed on an “at risk” register or taken into care after social workers and police held a lengthy meeting yesterday to discuss the family’s future.
 
Officers from Leicestershire’s child protection team are expected to visit the McCanns within days to assess whether toddlers Sean and Amelie are being cared for properly and whether they have been in any way traumatised by the events of the past four months.

Child welfare experts said social services were obliged to investigate any case where parents were suspected by police of harming their children either at home or abroad, and that placing the twins in foster care could become an option if the McCanns were charged or forced to return to Portugal for lengthy periods.

Kate McCann is said to be “terrified” that she will end up losing all three of her children following the disappearance of the couple’s four-year-old daughter Madeleine from an Algarve holiday resort 131 days ago. The couple were both named last week as official suspects over the disappearance of Madeleine by Portuguese detectives.

On a day of further dramatic developments in the case:

Portuguese police announced their intention to hand over a dossier on the case to the country’s public prosecutor on Tuesday, which could result in charges by the end of the week.

The McCanns were given police advice on how to deal with hate mail after a growing backlash against them gathered pace in the UK.

Police in Praia da Luz were preparing to search the holiday villa where the McCanns had been staying until Sunday.

Kate McCann faced fresh slurs in the Portuguese media, with claims that she was aggressive towards her children and sometimes “out of control”.

It was reported that “biological fluids” with an 80 per cent match to Madeleine’s were found underneath the carpet in the boot of the family’s hire car.

The McCanns have vowed to fight to clear their names, and hired two of the country’s leading solicitors, Michael Caplan QC and Angus McBride, to advise them on how to proceed with defending themselves against allegations that they “accidentally” killed Madeleine and then hid her body.

But before they can concentrate on rebutting the accusations made in Portugal, they are likely to take legal advice on how to respond to the investigation by Leicestershire’s child protection team. Social workers, lawyers and police spent most of the day in a meeting discussing the welfare of the McCann twins, and are expected to visit the family home in the village of Rothley within the week.

Although the council refused to discuss what was said at the meeting, the social services department had said last month that it was “aware of the traumatic ordeal experienced by the McCann family and take our child protection responsibilities very seriously”.

Link

[Anna]

Another article at SkyNews website:

'Police Match Madeleine DNA To Hire Car'
Updated: 20:26, Monday September 10, 2007

Portuguese police say they have found firm DNA evidence that the body of Madeleine McCann was in the boot of the family's hire car five weeks after she went missing, sources have told Sky News.
 
Kate McCann leaves PortimaoSky crime correspondent Martin Brunt, speaking from Portimao, said police were "adamant" they had found the most "damning" evidence yet implicating either one or both of the McCanns in their daughter's death.

The evidence came in blood samples returned from the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

More . . . http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283359,00.html

----------

So there is little doubt what the police are saying. . .full match DNA from blood taken from the trunk of the car.

They are saying you can't get a full match from transferred material.

I wonder if this is true or not.  I don't know enough about forensic DNA evidence to know if this is a fact as they claim or only their opinion.  Wish we had access to what the British lab had to say about this evidence.

And I agree that DNA is not absolute proof of anything.  There needs to be other supporting evidence.  What else do they have?  There are alleged surveillance tapes from both PLE and the British.  Do those also have some sort of evidence and if so, of what exactly?

I think it would take more than DNA to get a conviction but am not sure how their system even works.  I wonder if it is judge only or do they have jury trials, etc. 

But it doesn't sound as though the PLE are still looking for a live child any more.  I am rather stunned as I did think she was still alive until this latest turn of events.

Just don't know what to think.  I would still like to know the last to see Madeleine other than the parents, when, where, etc. last live sighting of the child to get a better feel for what would have been the timeline.

[bleachedblack]

I am actually speechless regarding this article about the McCann's possibly have to surrender their twins. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? I actually don't think this will happen, just legal protocol.........