Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[klaasend]

Per SKy news and Fox:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283521,00.html

McCann File Passed To Judge
Updated: 17:31, Tuesday September 11, 2007

A prosecutor in Portugal has decided there is enough evidence to charge the parents of Madeleine McCann with her death.
 
The McCanns: Enduring a tense waitHe has now passed on the details of the case to a judge who will decide whether to press charges against Kate and Gerry McCann.

Meanwhile, bodily fluids - not blood - matching Madeleine McCann's DNA have been found in the car hired by her parents, according to sources.

The sample was taken from the boot, where the spare tyre is kept.

It had an 88% match with the missing four-year-old's DNA, sources said.

Police searching the car also found so much of Madeleine's hair that it could not have been transferred from a blanket or clothes.

It must have come directly from her body, sources said.

The information came from senior sources in the investigation who briefed Portuguese journalists.

It follows last night's revelation by Sky News that detectives had found DNA evidence that Madeleine's body had been in the boot of the car hire by Gerry and Kate McCann five weeks after their daughter's disappearance.

(snipped)

[sharon]

snipped:

Meanwhile grandma Susan revealed that Madeleine and her twin brother and sister, Sean and Amelie, were all test tube babies.

She said her daughter had IVF treatment after she and Gerry were unable to conceive normally.

Speaking from her home in Woolton, Liverpool, she said: "Kate and Gerry waited a long time for those children - that's why they are so precious to them."

Link

Thanks, vms.

Were you able to find out anything additional -- in terms of voracity -- about the article on the 'dirty cop'?

[klaasend]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283585,00.html

Madeleine DNA Evidence: Q&A
By Hazel Tyldesley
Updated: 14:25, Tuesday September 11, 2007

Forensic test results are expected to be central to the file of evidence presented to Portuguese prosecutors by police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
 
What DNA evidence has been found?

Sky sources have said three different samples have produced positive results:

One full DNA match has been found on the windowsill of the apartment from which Madeleine disappeared. This may not be important as Madeleine could have touched the windowsill earlier in the holiday.

One partial DNA match has been found in the Renault Scenic car hired by the McCanns 25 days after their daughter's disappearance.

One full DNA match has been found in the hire car - it is 99.9% certain that it comes from Madeleine.

What do Portuguese police believe?

Sky sources say that, based on what they know, the police investigating Madeleine's disappearance believe she was killed and that her body was at some point placed in the boot of the hire car.

Is there any other explanation?

Yes - DNA can be transferred directly from the person but also indirectly, by another person or object.

DNA expert Dr Richard Leary believes even a full match test result can be delivered by indirect, transfer DNA.

 
DNA traces were found in a hire carForensic scientist Dr John Manlove has told Sky News that it is not always clear by which method a DNA sample has been transferred.

"In some cases its more positive that it would have been a primary transfer but with small amounts of DNA it is not necessarily possible to make such sweeping statements," said Dr Manlove.

 

How crucial is DNA evidence to the investigation?

Forensic expert Dr Richard Leary has told Sky News that Portuguese police can use DNA evidence to guide their investigation, but that other sources of evidence must be considered.

"Forensic evidence must be seen in the light of the case as a whole - timelines and accounts will be tested and compared. Police can then see how forensic evidence supports one side or another."

How long do DNA samples last?

It depends on the environment they are kept in, according to forensic expert Professor Allan Jameson.

"DNA can last for a long time, depending on the conditions," he told Sky News. "Light, bacteria, dampness - all those things will help deteriorate the DNA. Dry, cold conditions on the other hand can preserve DNA for years."

[BlueKYGirl]

Doctor Monkeys: remind me of what bodily fluids there are besides blood, semen, and urine. If not blood, the only fluid that applies here would be urine, and I'm not sure how that would have gotten there if Madeleine had indeed been dead for 25 days.

Am I forgetting some fluids I shouldn't be?

[sleddogs]

WTH! This is a media circus.


Portuguese Police Say Blood Found in Car May Not Belong to Madeleine

A Portuguese official said Tuesday that the blood traces found in a vehicle rented by the parents of missing Madeleine McCann may not belong to the four-year-old girl, like British media speculated.

The head of Portugal’s judicial police, Alipio Ribeiro said investigators have received a batch of test results from Britain, but until now none of them are an exact match with the child’s DNA.

Ribeiro’s statement comes after British media reported that a perfect match has been found between Madeleine’s DNA and forensic evidence discovered in a car rented by her parents Kate and Gerry McCann several weeks after her disappearance.

http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Portuguese_Police_Say_Blood_Found_in_Car_May_Not_Belong_to_Madeleine_08516.html



I still believe the parents are innocent and being set up.

[Mere]

BlueKYGirl....the body is made up of fluids...each cell contains fluid...as a body decomposes, it sort of liquifies in the proper environment...the tissue, cells, hair, etc may be left in the tire well, and even if dried, can be seen under a microscope and will show not blood perhaps but tissue cells.

Re this part of your question:
This question may show my ignorance about IVF and crime investigation, but does it matter to the investigation if the in-vitro process used by the McCanns involved both their DNA? Aren't they comparing the DNA evidence from the car and windowsill to samples that are confirmed to be Madeleine's? If so, how her genetic makeup came into existence shouldn't really matter to the investigation.

A talk show person talked about how one could be 100% certain what Maddies DNA really is if the sperm and eggs were from donors...I had not even thought about the donor part before and wondered if that was true....sorry if confusing.

[sleddogs]

Police cool on Madeleine DNA evidence

Police in Portugal have downplayed reports that damning forensic evidence linking the parents of Madeleine McCann to her disappearance has been found.

It comes after media reports in both Portugal and the UK said that Madeleine's DNA has been conclusively found in a car hired by the McCanns 25 days after she disappeared more than four months ago.

But the head of Portugal's Policia Judiciaria said in a rare live televised debate that detectives could not say "with certainty" that the blood belonged to the four-year-old, who has not been seen since going missing from her parents' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3rd.

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/portugal/countries/countries/police-cool-on-madeleine-dna-evidence-$1132667.htm

[Mere]

BKG...should have finished that statement...if Maddies parents are the donors...there is no doubt about Maddie's DNA.

[BlueKYGirl]

BlueKYGirl....the body is made up of fluids...each cell contains fluid...as a body decomposes, it sort of liquifies in the proper environment...the tissue, cells, hair, etc may be left in the tire well, and even if dried, can be seen under a microscope and will show not blood perhaps but tissue cells.

Re this part of your question:
This question may show my ignorance about IVF and crime investigation, but does it matter to the investigation if the in-vitro process used by the McCanns involved both their DNA? Aren't they comparing the DNA evidence from the car and windowsill to samples that are confirmed to be Madeleine's? If so, how her genetic makeup came into existence shouldn't really matter to the investigation.

A talk show person talked about how one could be 100% certain what Maddies DNA really is if the sperm and eggs were from donors...I had not even thought about the donor part before and wondered if that was true....sorry if confusing.

So you're saying the only way to distinguish if the evidentiary DNA is unique to Madeleine is if Kate/Gerry/Sean/Amelie aren't genetically related to her, at least not completely (as would be the case if the IVF process involved a donor)?

These answers are so interesting, Mere (especially the bodily fluids info)--thank you!

[BlueKYGirl]

BKG...should have finished that statement...if Maddies parents are the donors...there is no doubt about Maddie's DNA.

But if they're comparing the evidence to a known sample (from her toothbrush, for example), why does it matter? Or is there not a known sample? I guess a toothbrush could have been contaminated.

[Mere]

BKG...NO...each person's DNA is unique (identical twins are another subject)...Maddie is the product of her parents DNA...whoever the parents are...I do not want to confuse anyone over what a talk show person says....I wanted to know this morning if anyone knew whether the McCanns were the biological parents....sorry for bringing this up...! 

[Mere]

BlueKYGirl...here is something provided to parents about DNA testing of children...

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/209493.pdf

[BlueKYGirl]

BKG...NO...each person's DNA is unique (identical twins are another subject)...Maddie is the product of her parents DNA...whoever the parents are...I do not want to confuse anyone over what a talk show person says....I wanted to know this morning if anyone knew whether the McCanns were the biological parents....sorry for bringing this up...! 

Oh, don't be sorry for it--I think the answers are interesting and I wanted to make sure I was thinking about this from every angle.

For what it's worth, I think Maddie looks a lot like her parents. (How's that for a scientific analysis?)

[vms]

snipped:

Meanwhile grandma Susan revealed that Madeleine and her twin brother and sister, Sean and Amelie, were all test tube babies.

She said her daughter had IVF treatment after she and Gerry were unable to conceive normally.

Speaking from her home in Woolton, Liverpool, she said: "Kate and Gerry waited a long time for those children - that's why they are so precious to them."

Link

Thanks, vms.

Were you able to find out anything additional -- in terms of voracity -- about the article on the 'dirty cop'?

Sorry, Sharon. I just saw your post.

I haven't seen anything further to corroborate that story other than it has been printed in other papers since the parents were declared suspects.

[klaasend]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481028&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

Large amount of Madeleine's hair 'found in tyre well in boot of parents' hire car'
Last updated at 18:03pm on 11th September 2007
 
 Comments (39)

• Portuguese prosecutors pass case file onto senior judge
• Madeleine's body 'carried in car storage space'
• Bodily fluids found in tyre well were that of 'a decomposing corpse'
• Leicestershire's top detective visits McCanns' home


• Gerry's blog: last few days have been emotionally draining





Madeleine: DNA in the McCanns' hire care boot is said to be a full match

Substantial quantities of Madeleine McCann's hair were found in the tyre well of the boot of her parents' hire car, it was revealed today.


Investigators are convinced so much hair was found that her body must have been stored in the vehicle, which was hired more than three weeks after she disappeared.


The dramatic new evidence adds further pressure on Kate and Gerry McCann, who may now face charges over the death of the missing four-year-old in days.


In a separate development this afternoon, the public prosecutor ruled there was sufficient evidence against the McCanns to pass on the case to a senior judge.

A Portuguese lawyer said this might mean that the prosecutor wanted to impose stricter bail conditions or to carry out fresh searches or more interviews.

It is also possible that he is recommending charges, although this would be unusual, Artur Rego said.

"It wouldn't be normal unless he had already prepared the case," Mr Rego said.

The judge has 10 days to decide whether to agree to the prosecutor's request.


The move is likely to increase the possibility of charges against the couple.


But Gerry McCann has reiterated his insistence that they had "nothing" to do with the disappearance of their daughter, adding he Kate were "100 per cent confident" of each other's innocence - and would prove it to the world.


Senior police leading the investigation in Portugal said detectives from the Algarve will travel to Britain later this week as the investigation intensifies.


Sources today told the Evening Standard Newspaper: "Some of the samples of DNA were taken from hair which match Madeleine's DNA. There was so much hair it could not be from DNA transference but from the body being in the boot."

The source said that DNA from bodily fluids also found in the boot of the Renault Scenic car, hired by Kate and Gerry McCann 25 days after her disappearance, was a "90 per cent match" rather than the 100 per cent being widely reported.

The police source discounted the theory that the crucial DNA was of Madeleine's blood but it is understood that it was from bodily fluids given off by a decomposing corpse.

Today Leicestershire's top detective visited the McCann's at home. Detective Chief Superintendent Bob Small spent around an hour with the family at their house in The Crescent, Rothley, before leaving in an unmarked car.

The East Midlands force refused to confirm or comment on the visit today.

Police in Portugal are still awaiting full reports from the forensic science service in Birmingham and said that officers will go there in coming days to liaise with British police and scientists to ensure there is no misunderstanding over the test results.

Another sample giving a partial match is also said to have been found in the vehicle which was hired several weeks after Madeleine's disappearance on 3 May.


Although there was no official confirmation the police sources also alleged that the samples came directly from Madeleine's body and had not been passed on via her clothes or toys. The new reports follow yesterday's strong rebuttal of claims that test results sent to Portugal by forensics experts at Birmingham were flawed.

Scroll down for more...

(snipped)

[MsVada]

An interesting thought would be if all of the McCann children shared the same DNA. Two twins could share it. Could Madeleine have the same genetic code?

If the same eggs and sperm were used for the in vitro, it could be theoretically possible.

Mother + same donor for all three children
Father + same donor for all three children

just a thought, but not likely at all.

Interesting point Rob,  as I try and understand IVF, what are the chances of having the same donor for both pregnancies?  Not sure if I have heard whether its the Mother or Father that is having the fertility problems. but I do find the whole DNA thing very interesting. 

[Maggie]

Greta, from last night
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296421,00.html

[2NJSons_Mom]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this hired car....25 days after Madeleine went missing would be around May 28th....the parents had an audience with the Pope on the 30th....I doubt they drove to Rome.....where was Madeleine for those 3 plus weeks?  Who else had access to this car? 

Guess I'll have to wait for the phone taps.

[Maggie]

Sorry this is long, but it sets it all out.

Verdict could take two years if Kate and Gerry McCann go on trial
Frances Gibb, Legal Editor of The Times    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article2433981.ece?token=null&offset=0
If the McCanns are put on trial over the death of their daughter Madeleine it could be at least two years before there is a verdict, a Portuguese criminal lawyer said today.
Miguel Castro-Pereira said that every effort would be made to ensure that suspects’ rights were respected and all routes of appeal exhausted.
“The trial itself could take six or more months depending on the number of witnesses,” he said. “But from this moment, I think it could be at least two years before there is any kind of verdict.”
Mr Miguel Castro-Pereira, a partner with Abreu Advogados, a leading Portuguese firm in Lisbon, added: “The proceedings are quite formal can be quite lengthy, to ensure that defendants have all of their rights.
“That is the main concern, to avoid innocent people being accused and convicted.”
The lawyer said that as official suspects in the case, the couple now has a right to be informed of any charges brought against them and to remain silent under questioning.
The McCanns are required to inform the Portuguese police of where they intended to stay and to let them know if they moved from there, he said.
Apparently the couple has notified police that any further legal papers should be served at the offices of their Portuguese attorney.
The police will now continue to build their case and further inquiries could take weeks if not months.
If one of the McCanns is charged, they are likely to be remanded on bail and could even remain in England if the Portuguese authorities are content that they will cooperate, attending when required and remain in contact.
If they do not cooperate, the Portuguese police could issue a warrant for their arrest and seek their extradition.
Under the fast-track European Arrest Warrant, the couple has to be returned to Portugal within 90 days - the average is 45 - if they are alleged to have committed one of 32 listed crimes, including murder and manslaughter.
There are very limited grounds for refusing a request. If they do contest the extradition, there is a hearing within 21 days but the only grounds of challenge would be that the request fails on some technical ground.
The police case then goes to the Portuguese State Attorney who decides - like the Crown Prosecution Service - if there is sufficient evidence for a prosecution to be brought, Mr Castro-Pereira said.
“He has to be sure that there is sufficient evidence to show the strong possibility of a conviction.”
However, if the decision is “yes”, the defendants can request a public inquiry at which a judge will have power to re-examine all the evidence and meet defence requests for any further avenues to be explored or further investigations, he said.
“This stage, which is aimed at ensuring both the prosecution and defence are on the same level, could take months.”
A defendant protesting his or her innocence would be likely to go down this route, he added. “Many appeals can also happen during this process.”
If after this the case still proceeds to trial, a judge is appointed and the defendants have a right to choose to have a jury of eight people. Three judges would hear the case.
But Mr Castro-Pereira added that the jury did not have the central public role as in Britain or the United States and could be overuled by the judge if the judge felt that its verdict out of line with the law.
“My personal opinion is that in this case, the McCanns might not choose a jury because there are some issues relating to public perception that have to be balanced - such as the fact that they left their children alone . . . that may not be helpful.”
The trial itself could take several months, he said. One current trial in Portugal involving some celebrities and many witnesses had been going on for two years. But he predicted the earliest that a trial would deliver a verdict was two years from now.
Stephen Jakobi, the founder of Fair Trials Abroad and sponsor of an interstate organisation concerned with EU justice, was more critical of the Portuguese justice system.
“If you ask me what their chances are of not being convicted, I don’t believe they have a prayer.”
He pointed to the case of the Gary Mann, convicted of 2004 of football hooliganism “on evidence that in respect of another Portuguese defendant had been rejected”.
The trial was utterly unfair and not conducted properly, Mr Jakobi said.
But he added: “However here we have the eyes of the world on this case and the Portuguese will bend over backwards to make sure they are careful and don’t do something silly or incompetent that could turn into a diplomatic crisis.
“In my experience this justice system, including the police, is one of the worst in Europe and the police have a reputation for brutality," he added.
“Portgual is signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights but it’s the law in action I worry about.”
An Amnesty International report on the state of prisons in 2003 expressed concerns that the human rights of prisoners were not protected and that some suffered ill treatment.
He added that if the case got as far as a trial and a conviction, then huge diplomatic pressure could be brought to bear behind the scenes to try to secure the release of the McCanns.
“This is what happened with the ‘plane spotters' [who went on trial in Greece] and were eventually acquitted on appeal. Tony Blair did some tough talking to the Greek Prime Minister and they came home.”

[Anna]

I listened to update at noon on Fox, still just as confused.

Only identical twins start out with the same genetic code.  So not even these twins would have it. 

Decomposition fluids would be far more incriminating than a blood smear, IMO.

Have been looking for news, same old conflicting info.  Depending on where you read, the match could be 80, 90, 99.9 or 100 percent match.  But evidently not from blood and the hair samples also sounds just dreadful. 

The only thing I saw new was the prosecutor has sent something to a judge of instruction which could be for obtaining permission to do more searching or testing or questioning.

Before actual charges are brought, I think the prosecutor has to prepare his case and present that yet again to the judge?  Is that how others understand it?

Everything we are hearing is very incriminating toward the parents.

The big question in my mind is IS IT TRUE what we are being told or is this PLE's opinion/interpretation of the situation?

What I mean is for example, how much hair is too much to be found in the trunk of a car?  Five strands?  Or is it a huge clump that would have sloughed off a decomposing scalp?  We still don't know enough to form many thoughts on all this.  In my opinion.

Have the McCanns taken a lie detector test yet?  It was mentioned on Fox that this would be a very wise thing for them to do now having been named as suspects.

That might help.

.