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Author Topic: Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1  (Read 910896 times)
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Anna
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« Reply #580 on: September 11, 2007, 02:20:12 PM »

Thank you, Maggie and WELCOME to SM!
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« Reply #581 on: September 11, 2007, 02:22:50 PM »

What a peculiar system!  Suppose someone were to request a jury trial?  And then it could go on for two years? 

How on earth do they ever find jurors who can devote two years of their life to a single trial!

Last night on Greta and again today at noon, the Fox commentators mentioned the similarities to Aruba in this case.

I hope Aruba hears about that and how they have become linked to these kinds of botched investigations and are in fact the standard bearer for protection of tourism over justice.
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Maggie
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« Reply #582 on: September 11, 2007, 02:26:29 PM »

Thank you Anna
It's mind-boggling what the McCanns are facing-and add financial ruin. The trustees of the No Stone Left Unturned (donations for finding Maddy) are meeting now to decide whether the funds can be used to pay the McCan legal fees. My guess is they will decide on a no.
How can anyone survive this pressure?
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« Reply #583 on: September 11, 2007, 02:27:06 PM »

Snipped:

Senior police leading the investigation in Portugal said detectives from the Algarve will travel to Britain later this week as the investigation intensifies.

Link
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« Reply #584 on: September 11, 2007, 02:27:29 PM »

Maggie...thank you very much for that information....one of the sentences really bothers me...


“In my experience this justice system, including the police, is one of the worst in Europe and the police have a reputation for brutality," he added


I do think anyone involved in this case should be on their best behavior...with the world watching.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what could reasonably have happened to the child during those 25 days before the car was rented?  The McCanns were visitors, renting a flat...I think their friends were British...not Portugese....It is not as though they knew anyone to help with disposal of a body.  The evidence is accumulating...but I still look at them and cannot see "who did it"...!
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« Reply #585 on: September 11, 2007, 02:34:31 PM »

I agree. It is all so bizarre, like a strange movie. I wonder who had the car before  they rented it. Could Maddy have gone back to Britain with one of the other people in the social group?

Have to run a few errands, will be back later.
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« Reply #586 on: September 11, 2007, 02:35:39 PM »

What a peculiar system!  Suppose someone were to request a jury trial?  And then it could go on for two years? 

How on earth do they ever find jurors who can devote two years of their life to a single trial!

Last night on Greta and again today at noon, the Fox commentators mentioned the similarities to Aruba in this case.

I hope Aruba hears about that and how they have become linked to these kinds of botched investigations and are in fact the standard bearer for protection of tourism over justice.

Also wonder how earth they could ever get a fair trial in Portugal!  The McCanns are clearly being tried in the press as a little more info with negative spin is being released each day.

I hope they are innocent of involvement, but the evidence seems to be mounting against them.  We just don't know what the official evidence is.  They have been tried and convicted on the Court TV message boards - it's pretty ugly over there. 

Is anyone still searching for Maddie?
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« Reply #587 on: September 11, 2007, 02:42:18 PM »

Doctor Monkeys: remind me of what bodily fluids there are besides blood, semen, and urine. If not blood, the only fluid that applies here would be urine, and I'm not sure how that would have gotten there if Madeleine had indeed been dead for 25 days.

Am I forgetting some fluids I shouldn't be?

There is also stool, vomit and there is no way to put this  tactfully ......but even when someone is dead all cells do not immediately die. Fluid from the lungs may seep out the mouth. As decomposition starts bacteria in the intestines give off gases, tissues start to break down, skin develops blisters, organs that contain digestive enzymes infact start to digest = liquefy themselves such as the pancreas. The degree at which this all takes place of course depends on different factors ie environmental conditions.The body infact begins to weep DNA  Sad
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« Reply #588 on: September 11, 2007, 02:42:50 PM »

The Maddy file
EXCLUSIVE: Dramatic new blood sample evidence Cops 'tapped' couple's phone for clues
By Jon Clements And Ryan Parry In Praia Da Luz 11/09/2007
 
Key forensic tests back police suspicions that Kate McCann accidentally killed her daughter Madeleine and the body was then moved by car, it was claimed yesterday.

Experts found differences in Madeleine's blood traces taken from the family apartment in Praia da Luz and the Renault Scenic Kate and husband Gerry rented 25 days after the four-year-old vanished on May 3.

They say specks found on the floor and window sill of the apartment were fresh before they dried.

But blood and other bodily fluids found in the boot lining and interior of the Renault congealed differently, indicating they came from Madeleine's body at a later time.

 The samples reportedly had a "full match" with Madeleine's DNA.

Police have since commissioned further tests and analysis of samples based on answers given by Kate and Gerry during interviews. They suspect Gerry helped cover up his daughter's death by disposing of her body then lying about events.

The results from Britain's Forensic Science Service emerged as detectives prepared to give prosecutors a dossier calling for Kate to be charged with "accidental homicide", the Portuguese equivalent of manslaughter in British law.

A source said: "The feeling is that the forensics support the theory that Madeleine died accidentally inside the apartment on the night she vanished, and she was then moved.

"These are sensitive tests but they have been carried out by some of the best scientists in the world. Detectives believe they fit into a wider pattern of evidence which points to the McCanns.

"There has been talk of 70 or 80 per cent matches. The FSS doesn't do that. It's either a match or it's not. It's either significant or it's not. In this case, it's significant."

Last night it was also believed phone taps may have been used. Unlike Britain, covert recordings are allowed as evidence in Portuguese courts.

Yesterday officers in Praia da Luz began a fresh search of the villa the McCanns rented after leaving their holiday apartment. They are looking for more traces of blood, fibres and other bodily fluids which may be linked to Madeleine.

Further searches at other nearby sites will be carried out. One place under scrutiny is in the nearby town of Lagos where officers will check drainage systems and construction sites.

Fishermen have reported being asked to search coves along the Algarve coast for bin liners.


The police dossier of evidence against the McCanns contains hundreds of pages of interview transcripts, witness statements, forensic reports and analysis by detectives.

It will be handed this morning to Jose Cunha de Magalhaes de Menezes who will decide if the couple, both 39, have a case to answer.

Mr de Menezes is expected to wait for a further update from British scientists before announcing if Kate and Gerry should face trial.

Police spokesman Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said yesterday: "At the moment the inquiry is being prepared to be handed to the prosecutor. He will analyse it then make his decision."

Hunt leader Guilhermino Encarnacao added: "The theory of the death of Madeleine is progressively gaining more consistency. The investigation continues with all means."

A source close to the inquiry said all major results had been handed to British police and the Portuguese authorities. The insider added: "We have reached the tail end."

There were claims that the prosecutor would have charged the McCanns last week. But it is thought he was pressured into waiting by the Portuguese Attorney General.

Police believe the implications of a botched trial for relations between Portugal and the UK, and the effects on tourism, played a part.

The prosecutor now has three options - to bring charges, rule no action should be taken, or return the papers to police requesting more evidence. Under Portuguese law the McCanns have to be notified of any impending prosecution in writing.

It could mean months of waiting for the heartbroken couple who vehemently insist they had nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance and believe their daughter was abducted.



Relatives say it is ludicrous to think Kate and Gerry could have hidden a body for 25 days then moved it while constantly in the public eye.

One witness believes she saw a mystery man carrying a child near the McCanns' apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared.

Furious relatives accuse the police of attempting to frame Kate and Gerry. Other supporters have even suggested crucial evidence has been planted to avoid accusations of a bungled inquiry.

Madeleine's aunt, Philomena, said: "All I can suggest is that the Portuguese police are clutching at straws to get this case cleared up.

"Kate and Gerry have been a thorn in their sides for a long time. What better than to cast them as villains ?" The McCanns were named as suspects last week after being questioned as witnesses.

Detectives told Kate during questioning that if she confessed to accidentally killing Madeleine she would get a reduced sentence of two years.

The couple were not set bail conditions and were allowed to return home to Rothley, Leics, with twins Sean and Amelie, two, on Sunday.

They insisted they were not running away and would continue to co-operate.

They have since hired top barrister Michael Caplan QC, an expert in extradition law who represented Chilean dictator General Pinochet in 1999.

He will be instructed by solicitor Angus McBride who defended actor Chris Langham, convicted of downloading child porn.

A family friend said the McCanns were being advised on "much more than just extradition" but would not give any further details.

Kate and Gerry now have the headache of meeting hefty legal bills to try to prove their innocence.

So far more than £1million of donated money has flowed into the fund set up to find Madeleine. But using fund money is not an option.

FORENSIC EVIDENCE

Analysed by Detective Chief Inspector Peter Kirkham, former Scotland Yard murder squad investigator

Clue: Blood on window sill of apartment at Ocean World resort which matches Madeleine's DNA profile

Dci Kirkham says: "She could have reached this herself which means it is not necessarily suspicious. She could have cut herself or bumped into it so it is of interest but not significant on its own."

Clue: Blood on floor of apartment at Ocean World resort which dried fresh and matched Madeleine's DNA profile

Dci Kirkham says: "Children can fall over and bump themselves and it's unlikely that they do themselves a lot of harm. The significance of this depends on how much and the spray or pattern it forms."

Clue: Police teams still searching for Madeleine in surrounding and wider area of Portugal

Dci Kirkham says: "To find a body in any murder is absolutely crucial even after several months. It moves an investigation forward a million miles with new leads. There are soil samples to examine, other forensic traces to detect and items to examine. Without a body, you are at step one, with a body you are at step nine."

Clue: Blood, hairs and other bodily fluids in interior and boot lining of Renault Scenic

Dci Kirkham says: "This is much harder to explain away innocently. If there is more than a few spots that suggests something sinister. If there is bodily fluid from a decomposing corpse it is almost impossible to come up with an innocent explanation."

Clue: Search of the nearby villa which Kate and Gerry McCann rented after they left Ocean World Resort

Dci Kirkham says: "If the police believe a corpse has been moved they will ask, 'Where was it wrapped?' If there are traces in the car there would have been traces on clothes. If there were traces on clothes they could have been transferred to the villa."

Clue: Cuddle Cat, which Kate says she left with Madeleine but she says was found on a shelf afterwards

Dci Kirkham says: "This was given as evidence that Madeleine did not wander off. But Portuguese police will not take it at face value now Kate is a suspect."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/11/the-maddy-file-89520-19766330/
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« Reply #589 on: September 11, 2007, 02:44:31 PM »

Cops 'want to dig near the church'
By Lucy Thornton And Ryan Parry 11/09/2007

Police have asked for permission to dig up a pedestrianised road near the Catholic church regularly visited by the McCanns in Praia da Luz, it has been claimed.

A 300 metre stretch by the seafront, and close to Kate and Gerry's holiday apartment, was paved over just after Madeleine went missing in May.

But the reports were branded "absurd" last night by friends of the couple, Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard and his wife Susan who arrived in the resort just after Madeleine vanished.

Haynes said: "The police need to focus on finding Maddy. We don't know she's dead. They won't find anything there."

 And Susan said: "This is absurd. A man sat there for ages putting those little stones in place by hand."

Portuguese newspapers have been reporting claims officers have applied to the District Attorney for a warrant.

One source said: "There were lots of large holes made for drainage but it was covered over soon after Maddy vanished."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/11/cops-want-to-dig-near-the-church-89520-19766326/

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« Reply #590 on: September 11, 2007, 02:45:23 PM »

Doctor Monkeys: remind me of what bodily fluids there are besides blood, semen, and urine. If not blood, the only fluid that applies here would be urine, and I'm not sure how that would have gotten there if Madeleine had indeed been dead for 25 days.

Am I forgetting some fluids I shouldn't be?

There is also stool, vomit and there is no way to put this  tactfully ......but even when someone is dead all cells do not immediately die. Fluid from the lungs may seep out the mouth. As decomposition starts bacteria in the intestines give off gases, tissues start to break down, skin develops blisters, organs that contain digestive enzymes infact start to digest = liquefy themselves such as the pancreas. The degree at which this all takes place of course depends on different factors ie environmental conditions. The body infact begins to weep DNA  Sad

Is this "weeping" what the cadaver dogs react to?
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Anna
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« Reply #591 on: September 11, 2007, 02:54:52 PM »

Mere,
One of the things that strikes me as being odd is the other doctor who checked on the McCann children.  He claims to have gone all the way to the room but merely listened at the door? 

If I bothered to walk that far to check, I would at least want actual visual confirmation that all was well.

I wonder how carefully the rooms of the friends of McCanns were checked.

It seems that no one actually saw Madeleine with their own eyes for several hours before she was reported missing other than the McCanns.  That sort of bothers me for some reason.

Granted their friends from Britain wouldn't know distant hiding places but could this one have concealed Madeleine for his friends the McCanns while searches where being conducted of their apartment?

Something of this nature is always a possibility.  I wonder how much longer the rest of their vacation party remained in Portugal before returning to Britain.

I can see several ways something like this could have happened but that doesn't mean that it did.  Are we being told the truth of the matter or are the PLE slanting everything to make the McCanns look guilty?

I just don't know.  They should be very careful as making a big mistake with the whole world watching will damage their reputation very badly.  Should Madeleine be found alive, for example, I would think they could suffer tremendous loss financially in their tourism sector for having framed the parents.

And that I find also troubling.  Just how much is at stake for PLE being right on this?  Enough for them to make it so?

I just don't believe anybody about anything much any more.  Fear I have become totally cynical since what happened to Natalee Holloway and her family.

.
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« Reply #592 on: September 11, 2007, 02:56:19 PM »

This is an article on the stages of decomposition....it is not for everyone....and it will stay
with you for a long time...sort of a notice to the faint of heart.... Neutral


http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1478719
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« Reply #593 on: September 11, 2007, 03:04:36 PM »

I asked a friend with knowledge about DNA...she said....if Maddie has peed, vomited or even slobbered on perhaps a favorite blanket, clothing, etc...this could easily provide DNA....as to the hair found...my friend also reminded me that her daughter HATED to have her hair combed or brushed and it's was always a fight..so perhaps hairs from her brush or comb..or even if she went to sleep with her hair wet....or again from a towel or clothing or even a stuffed toy (my friend has not been following the case...so the mention of the stuffed toy was enlightening to me)..she also said that at times,  body fluids from a decaying body will often not produce anything more than minor DNA results due to the decomposition..which depends on a lot of conditions....where the body as kept, the weather etc.  So the PLE thought Kate accidentally overdosed Maddie...so why would there then be blood? Vomit I can understand...but blood from a sedative overdose??  Too much 'stuff' is leaking out...which reminds me of the so called leaks and false statements and the retracted statements in Natalee's case...I have a feeling that a lot of this coming out is pure crap....all done to not only influence the public, but probably to frighten the McCann's into admitting something happened,  an accident....even if that is not the case....one parent getting 2 years or the possibility of both parents being convicted....
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Rest in Peace Caylee
Natalee, We will never forget.
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PUT ON YOUR BIG GIRL PANTIES AND GET OVER IT!  It's not about you or me.....It's about the Missing and the Murdered
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« Reply #594 on: September 11, 2007, 03:07:31 PM »

Doctor Monkeys: remind me of what bodily fluids there are besides blood, semen, and urine. If not blood, the only fluid that applies here would be urine, and I'm not sure how that would have gotten there if Madeleine had indeed been dead for 25 days.

Am I forgetting some fluids I shouldn't be?

There is also stool, vomit and there is no way to put this  tactfully ......but even when someone is dead all cells do not immediately die. Fluid from the lungs may seep out the mouth. As decomposition starts bacteria in the intestines give off gases, tissues start to break down, skin develops blisters, organs that contain digestive enzymes infact start to digest = liquefy themselves such as the pancreas. The degree at which this all takes place of course depends on different factors ie environmental conditions. The body infact begins to weep DNA  Sad

Is this "weeping" what the cadaver dogs react to?

A's I am not certain at what point a cadaver dog would get a" hit" and at which point a search dog would not. Sorry....... I would tend to think that a cadaver dog would get the scent of death even before "weeping" of fluid and that far advanced a stage has occurred though.
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SunnyinTX
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« Reply #595 on: September 11, 2007, 03:09:23 PM »

This is an article on the stages of decomposition....it is not for everyone....and it will stay
with you for a long time...sort of a notice to the faint of heart.... Neutral


http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1478719

thanks Mere...I tried to read...but I just had lunch and decided I am one of the faint of heart...or in this case tummy
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Rest in Peace Caylee
Natalee, We will never forget.
Zahra, run with the Angels

PUT ON YOUR BIG GIRL PANTIES AND GET OVER IT!  It's not about you or me.....It's about the Missing and the Murdered
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« Reply #596 on: September 11, 2007, 03:09:51 PM »

This is an article on the stages of decomposition....it is not for everyone....and it will stay
with you for a long time...sort of a notice to the faint of heart.... Neutral


http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1478719

Good article Mere. It covers it all.
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SunnyinTX
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« Reply #597 on: September 11, 2007, 03:12:40 PM »

Doctor Monkeys: remind me of what bodily fluids there are besides blood, semen, and urine. If not blood, the only fluid that applies here would be urine, and I'm not sure how that would have gotten there if Madeleine had indeed been dead for 25 days.

Am I forgetting some fluids I shouldn't be?

There is also stool, vomit and there is no way to put this  tactfully ......but even when someone is dead all cells do not immediately die. Fluid from the lungs may seep out the mouth. As decomposition starts bacteria in the intestines give off gases, tissues start to break down, skin develops blisters, organs that contain digestive enzymes infact start to digest = liquefy themselves such as the pancreas. The degree at which this all takes place of course depends on different factors ie environmental conditions. The body infact begins to weep DNA  Sad

Is this "weeping" what the cadaver dogs react to?

A's I am not certain at what point a cadaver dog would get a" hit" and at which point a search dog would not. Sorry....... I would tend to think that a cadaver dog would get the scent of death even before "weeping" of fluid and that far advanced a stage has occurred though.

I can't find where I read it...but I did read that there are other scents that both scent and cadaver dogs will hit on....falsely identifying a scent or cadaver 'hit'
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Rest in Peace Caylee
Natalee, We will never forget.
Zahra, run with the Angels

PUT ON YOUR BIG GIRL PANTIES AND GET OVER IT!  It's not about you or me.....It's about the Missing and the Murdered
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« Reply #598 on: September 11, 2007, 03:18:04 PM »

It is the presence of enzymes of decomposition that both the dogs hit on and that enable forensic experts to tell if the DNA is from a living or deceased person.
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« Reply #599 on: September 11, 2007, 03:28:23 PM »

I'm sure there are false hits by dogs. 

Wish we could read the lab reports for ourselves.  No chance of THAT happening, however. 

And I wonder what other evidence they have besides DNA.  I don't think an entire case can be based on just DNA samples.

They need much more than that, in my opinion.  Question is, do they have it? 
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