Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[BlueKYGirl]

So did they allegedly move the body to the church or from the church? Or is there a theory one way or another on this?

[Puzzler]

GIBSON: Mark, you know, the police in Portugal are really frustrated, and there is killing, terrorism and all of that. Isn't there at least a suspicion on your part that they may be looking for somebody easy to accuse since they haven't found somebody hard?

FUHRMAN: No, absolutely not, John. I think they have done something that I have had a lot of respect for. They conducted the investigation. They looked for outside possibilities of a kidnapping, because they had two parents that looked very credible and making statements that they were at dinner. So they went and they did what they were supposed to do.

They did the investigation in the room. They couldn't find anything outward, and this is very important, John. So they went and looked for suspects. They didn't see anything, any forced entry, anything like this. They didn't find any blood.

They go back and they look at this with sniffer dogs, basically cadaver dogs. They find blood. Now, this is the most important part, John. They don't see the blood. The dogs smell the blood. That means that somebody had to clean up the blood. Well, if it wasn't a maid, if it wasn't a 4-year-old child, then who was it? And if you don't have a parent that says they cleaned up any blood, you've got a problem.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296444,00.html

[Anna]

Maybe the car is the "object" the pLE are seeking an emergency order to get.  Apparently the McCanns put it in storage.

----

Despite its apparent significance to police, the lease firm, Budget, said yesterday that it had expected to receive it back from the McCanns and was surprised when the couple left Portugal without handing over the keys. "The police have not asked for it back," a spokesman said. "The McCanns didn't tell us they were leaving the country or hand in the keys to us before they left. We now have an idea of where the car is and when it will be handed back."

The car is reportedly stored at Faro airport, where the McCanns may commission their own forensic examination of it.

There were more reports in the Portuguese press yesterday of an escalation in the number of searches for Madeleine's body in Praia da Luz. Search areas were to include the village church attended many times by the McCanns. Publico newspaper alleged that police were convinced that Madeleine's body had been buried there, and later moved using the hire car. But there were no searches at the church yesterday.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2953465.ece

[Puzzler]

Speculation is that police bugged the car and/or added a monitoring system and want to check it out.

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/09/12/s.....carro.html

Polícia quer voltar a analisar carro dos Mc Cann

Police want to check once more the McCanns car

KÁTIA KATULO E JOSÉ MANUEL OLIVEIRA

MP considera que houve crime. Juiz decide em dez dias

Public Prosecutor thinks there was a crime. Judge will decide in ten days

The Public Prosecutor will order the confiscation of the car which the McCanns used while in the Algarve and which has become central to the investigation in the Madeleine case because of evidence detected inside it.

New tests will be carried out on the car. Further, each and every person who rented that car will once more be investigated.

Yesterday ten boxes containing the whole process was delivered by the PJ to the Public Prosecutor and from there its on its way to a criminal Judge who will decide if there are grounds for trial. This indicates that the Public Prosecutor thinks there is sufficient information in the report of the PJ to bring accusations against one or both of the arguidos (formal suspects).

The Judge will decide if the case will go to trial by the end of next week. He could also decide to dismiss the process.

The PJ thinks that Kate McCann might be recalled to Portugal. If there is a refusal then diplomatic means would be used to extradite, forcing the British Police to make an arrest.

[Anna]

So did they allegedly move the body to the church or from the church? Or is there a theory one way or another on this?

I don't know.  These articles are written in the most convoluted manner of anything I have ever tried to read.  Maybe it's just me. 

I think they are saying they hid the body at the Church then later rented the car and moved it to the road to be paved over?

But I am not at all sure that is what is being alleged.  Why can't they just say it outright?  And why don't the McCanns ever really look the camrea in the eye any more?

I just so hate to think they are behind this but then I believed Susan Smith, too.

I just wish they would all tell the same story in the news articles and on the TV programs.  I don't know what to believe but am highly suspicious of some of the actions of the parents of late.  Until the last few days, I was convinced Madeleine was still alive some where.

[BlueKYGirl]

So did they allegedly move the body to the church or from the church? Or is there a theory one way or another on this?

I don't know.  These articles are written in the most convoluted manner of anything I have ever tried to read.  Maybe it's just me. 

I think they are saying they hid the body at the Church then later rented the car and moved it to the road to be paved over?

But I am not at all sure that is what is being alleged.  Why can't they just say it outright?  And why don't the McCanns ever really look the camrea in the eye any more?

I just so hate to think they are behind this but then I believed Susan Smith, too.

I just wish they would all tell the same story in the news articles and on the TV programs.  I don't know what to believe but am highly suspicious of some of the actions of the parents of late.  Until the last few days, I was convinced Madeleine was still alive some where.

Like most other details of this case, the moving of the body makes little sense to me. Why would they move her from a respectable burial at a church to be paved over? If that's the case, they must really want to hide what happened.

[klaasend]

Rumor:

1.  Gerry and another man were seen near the church the night Madeleine went missing

2.  That Madeleine was buried in one of the ravines that were at that time still open due to the roadwork that was going on near the Church

3.  The ravines were filled in soon after Madeleine went missing

4.  That they plan on digging up the ravines now in hopes to find Madeleine's body


Note:  I'm not saying any of the above is true, just reporting what is being said in UK papers and forums.  

[Puzzler]

Don't have a link, but read earlier today about a possible reason for moving the body:

Gerry and male friend asked to meet the priest at the church at 4:00 a.m. (morning after Maddie went missing)
The priest gave them a key to the church for G&K to visit whenever they wanted to in private.
Body originally buried at the church.
Body could have initially been moved easily in a stroller as church is located close by.
G&K hired a guy from Africa, known to be able to locate dead bodies, who indicated the area of the church.
Authorities did not follow-up on this man's recommendation.
Later...cadaver dogs hit on the scent of death in the room G&K stayed.  Trail of death scent led dogs to the church.
(Also hit on scent of death in closet of apartment G&K moved to and some of K's clothes....none of G's clothes).
Now the authorities are very interested.
G&K, if guilty, didn't count on the dogs hitting on a death scent in their room.
Body had to be moved out of fear of being found.
Police theory that body was moved in rental car (reason body would be in car so many days later).
Police intend on digging up several areas around church, maybe not necessarily to find the body, but to find evidence of an initial burial and retrieval therefrom.

[ospainter]

http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=15034042&p=y5x34x88&n=15034130

Friends 'appalled' at Kate McCann news

07/09/2007 - 2:33:50 PM

Friends who dined with the McCanns on the night Madeleine vanished said today they were “totally appalled” at any suggestion that Kate McCann was involved in her daughter’s disappearance.

In a joint statement, the group stressed their firm belief that Mrs McCann was innocent, and said they would support the couple until “this nightmare is over”.

“We are totally appalled at any suggestion that Kate had anything to do with Madeleine’s disappearance,” the statement said.

“She is innocent; we know this because we are her friends, we were with her on the night, and we witnessed first hand the unimaginable grief Kate and Gerry suffered and continue to suffer.

“We will support them until this nightmare is over. We also hope that this will not detract from the search for Madeleine who remains missing.”

The McCanns were having dinner with a group of seven friends from the UK in a tapas restaurant opposite the Algarve apartment from where the four-year-old, then three, vanished.

Among them were Dr Russell O’Brien and his wife Jane Tanner, who themselves have two young children.

Dr O’Brien, who lives in Exeter, was forced to make a statement last month, attacking “completely untrue and extremely hurtful” reports about him in the Portuguese newspapers.

Portuguese police also said there was “no basis” for the allegations.

Dr O’Brien and his wife moved to Exeter from Leicester shortly before the holiday in Praia da Luz.

On the night Madeleine disappeared, Dr O’Brien left the table at around the time she is believed to have been snatched.

But it is understood he was looking after his young daughter, who was ill and vomiting in her room.

Another three diners were Dr Fiona Payne and her husband David, a senior research fellow at Leicester University, and Mrs Payne’s mother Dianne Webster.

The Paynes were among those who stayed on in the Algarve to support the McCanns for several weeks after the abduction.

They also have two children and according to one newspaper were the only ones in the group using a baby monitor the night Madeleine disappeared.

A fourth couple at dinner that night, other than the McCanns themselves, were Rachael and Matthew Oldfield, another doctor.

Mrs Oldfield, a recruitment consultant, and her husband, who both live in London, have a daughter aged about 22 months.

They knew the McCanns because Mr Oldfield and Mr McCann worked together at a Leicester hospital.

Last month, the mum-of-one spoke out about “hurtful and all rather ludicrous” reports in the Portuguese press.

“I think there are some leaks coming from the police, but a lot of what I have read recently has been completely untrue,” Mrs Oldfield told the Evening Standard.

“Whether a journalist has had a bit of information and made the rest up, or the police are feeding some truth or untruths, I don’t know.”

In early July, Portuguese police brought together some of the friends and their chief suspect at the time to discuss discrepancies over what happened on the night.

Mrs Oldfield, 36, Dr O’Brien, 36, and Dr Payne, 34, compared their versions of events on May 3 with the then only named suspect – Robert Murat.

It is understood they saw Briton Mr Murat on the night Madeleine disappeared, while he has insisted he was at his nearby home all evening with his mother Jenny.

At the time of the interviews Mrs Oldfield said: “We are more than happy to help the police with their ongoing investigation.

“All of us want to do anything we can to help find Madeleine and reunite her with her loving parents.” 



Ok, we have 4 couples plus mother of Dr. Payne Diane Webster at dinner:

1. McCanns with 3 children
2. Dr O'Brien and Jane Tanner 2 young children (has sick child)
3. Dr Fiona Payne and husband David 2 young children, using baby monitor
4. Dr. Oldfield and wife Rachel 22 month old baby girl

glad to get that figured out.

Still can't find out why Dr. Oldfield offered to check on McCann children.

OS

[klaasend]

Ok, we have 4 couples plus mother of Dr. Payne Diane Webster at dinner:

1. McCanns with 3 children
2. Dr O'Brien and Jane Tanner 2 young children (has sick child)
3. Dr Fiona Payne and husband David 2 young children, using baby monitor
4. Dr. Oldfield and wife Rachel 22 month old baby girl

glad to get that figured out.

Still can't find out why Dr. Oldfield offered to check on McCann children.

And if he was going to offer, why didn't he even open the door to their room?  That's not exactly checking on them is it?

[Puzzler]

Saw body language expert on BOR tonight.  They played a clip of G&K; K talking about how they are good and responsible parents and looked over at her husband.  Very interesting....it was noted that G did not look at K at all - looked straight ahead - and he looked scared. 

[robots]

How long was Dr O'B  gone when he was checking on the children?  Did he have a rental car? Perhaps the same rental car later rented by the McCanns?  If it ends up Maddy left and went back to Britain with someone in the social party, I get Robots cigar.

maybe we can smoke me together 

[robots]

Ok, we have 4 couples plus mother of Dr. Payne Diane Webster at dinner:

1. McCanns with 3 children
2. Dr O'Brien and Jane Tanner 2 young children (has sick child)
3. Dr Fiona Payne and husband David 2 young children, using baby monitor
4. Dr. Oldfield and wife Rachel 22 month old baby girl

glad to get that figured out.

Still can't find out why Dr. Oldfield offered to check on McCann children.

And if he was going to offer, why didn't he even open the door to their room?  That's not exactly checking on them is it?

no, that is not CHECKING on them

that is called "SPINNING"

[Puzzler]

I'd call it SPINNING, too.

Very sad to think this way, but more than one thing is not right from the get go:

Unlocked door
Open window
Some of the parents saying they checked on children by listening outside the door
G&K saying they were very close by when they were a football field's length away
Dr. O'B saying he was gone 35 min. checking on and tending to his sick daughter; changing daughter's bed linen because she was sick; hotel staff did not confirm his statement
Mother discovers daughter missing and walks back to dinner party (a football field length) to tell friends
Mother leaves twins in room alone after discovering her daughter is missing
Phone call list indicates that mother first called Sky News in England......THEN called 911

[BlueKYGirl]

Don't have a link, but read earlier today about a possible reason for moving the body:

Gerry and male friend asked to meet the priest at the church at 4:00 a.m. (morning after Maddie went missing)
The priest gave them a key to the church for G&K to visit whenever they wanted to in private.
Body originally buried at the church.
Body could have initially been moved easily in a stroller as church is located close by.
G&K hired a guy from Africa, known to be able to locate dead bodies, who indicated the area of the church.
Authorities did not follow-up on this man's recommendation.
Later...cadaver dogs hit on the scent of death in the room G&K stayed.  Trail of death scent led dogs to the church.
(Also hit on scent of death in closet of apartment G&K moved to and some of K's clothes....none of G's clothes).
Now the authorities are very interested.
G&K, if guilty, didn't count on the dogs hitting on a death scent in their room.
Body had to be moved out of fear of being found.
Police theory that body was moved in rental car (reason body would be in car so many days later).
Police intend on digging up several areas around church, maybe not necessarily to find the body, but to find evidence of an initial burial and retrieval therefrom.

That's a plausible explanation, I guess--who is this guy from Africa they hired and is that confirmed? It certainly lends creedence to the church story. If he did indeed say the body was there, I guess that's a good reason to move it. But if they buried her initially, why, then, the worldwide campaign to find Madeleine?

All the answers just lead to more questions...it all goes in a big circle.

I think I'm going to sleep soon, friends. Sleep well, everyone!

[Anna]

I'd call it SPINNING, too.

Very sad to think this way, but more than one thing is not right from the get go:

Unlocked door
Open window
Some of the parents saying they checked on children by listening outside the door
G&K saying they were very close by when they were a football field's length away
Dr. O'B saying he was gone 35 min. checking on and tending to his sick daughter; changing daughter's bed linen because she was sick; hotel staff did not confirm his statement
Mother discovers daughter missing and walks back to dinner party (a football field length) to tell friends
Mother leaves twins in room alone after discovering her daughter is missing
Phone call list indicates that mother first called Sky News in England......THEN called 911

Puzzler,
Is that true?  Did the mother really call Sky News first?  Yikes!  Had not heard this before. 

[ospainter]

Ok, we have 4 couples plus mother of Dr. Payne Diane Webster at dinner:

1. McCanns with 3 children
2. Dr O'Brien and Jane Tanner 2 young children (has sick child)
3. Dr Fiona Payne and husband David 2 young children, using baby monitor
4. Dr. Oldfield and wife Rachel 22 month old baby girl

glad to get that figured out.

Still can't find out why Dr. Oldfield offered to check on McCann children.

And if he was going to offer, why didn't he even open the door to their room?  That's not exactly checking on them is it?

Klaas,

Nope, I should have added, why he offered and then didn't, but that is not what I am looking for. I already know he didn't check on them properly.

Something just doesn't add up imo. 

Oh well, time will tell I guess.

BTW, wasn't it a cadaver dog being used in the Ohio search of the missing pregnant woman that hit on a mound of Pot? OR was it another kind of search dog?

OS

[klaasend]

OS - I'm not sure what kind of dog it was.

[Anna]

OS - I'm not sure what kind of dog it was.

I'm not positive but tend to think it would have been a search & rescue dog as I believe at the time they were using dogs to look for her, they thought she was still alive.

But I could have totally the wrong victim as it seems there is some new tragedy every day and I can't keep up.

I do know the cadaver dogs are the most expensive to train and that is why Portugal doesn't have any of their own and so used the British.  They are supposed to be the best of the best of the group.

Still, I am sure like humans they make mistakes from time to time.

[klaasend]

The backpeddling begins:

MADELEINE POLICE: WE MIGHT NOT HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE

Lack of clues could hit any prosecution

Police admit they may not have enough evidence to charge Kate and Gerry McCann with killing daughter Madeleine.

Detectives in Portugal who declared the couple suspects and grilled them for hours, last night admitted a lack of clues could scupper any prosecution.

And they confessed claims DNA found in the McCanns' car was a 100 per cent match to Madeleine were wrong - it was only 88 per cent. The twist came as a 1,000-word dossier of evidence against Kate and Gerry was handed straight to a judge yesterday by a prosecutor who was expected to take days or weeks to decide if it backed calls by police, convinced they killed Madeleine, to charge them.

The move, described a "significant development", heightened fears the couple, who insist they played no part in the death of the four-year-old, could be hauled back to Portugal for more questioning.

 Despite the lack of evidence, officials said they could find out within 10 days if they are to be charged.

Legal experts said the judge has the power order the couple back and place them under house arrest.

And detectives also announced they want to quiz Praia da Luz Catholic priest Jose Manuel Pachico to find out if Kate and Gerry have made any confession to him about their daughter, who vanished from their holiday apartment on May 3 as they had a meal.

A source said: "Police are obviously interested in knowing what he has been told and if the McCann's confided in him." The priest befriended the couple and gave them the keys to his Our Lady of Light church.

Officers were last night poised to make further searches around the building and plan to dig up pavements and a road nearby in their hunt for clues.

Yesterday Kate and Gerry were visited at home in Rothley by Leicesterhire Chief Superintendent Bob Small. He refused to discuss his reason for being there.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/12/madeleine-police-we-might-not-have-enough-evidence-89520-19776892/