Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[festa]

Have Kate and Gerry McCann any case to answer?
Legal opinion is united on the likelihood of the couple being charged. Criminal lawyers discuss the strength of the case against them


....So what is the strength of the DNA evidence that apparently forms the mainstay of the case being assembled against the couple? The same lawyer says: "My worry, if I was defending them, is that the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham that is conducting the tests is very good. These guys know what they are doing."

John Cooper, an experienced criminal barrister, agrees. "If - and we can only go on what has been reported, and making the assumption that it is accurate - a quantity of samples of hair were found in the boot of the car then that would be very powerful evidence and they may well have a case to answer."

The DNA experts would also be able to tell, he adds, whether the DNA had been "secondarily transferred" - in other words, it was there because it had been carried on another family member's clothes or had come directly from Madeleine's body.

The finding of a body would obviously be helpful to the prosecution, because from that, the cause of death could be detected and other forensic evidence adduced, he adds. "But many people are convicted of murder or manslaughter without a body ever being found. It is not essential."

Yet even if a prosecution proceeds, criminal lawyers are equally robust in their view - on present knowledge of what evidence exists - that the chances of a conviction are slender. Professor Slapper says: "I think that without some new and incontrovertibly incriminating evidence, culpability will be impossible to determine reliably. Justice was so badly compromised by the authorities at the outset - the late arrival of the police, the failure quickly to seal the area and to alert national and regional offices - that even the slickest subsequent actions cannot retrieve that ground."

The (unnamed) criminal solicitor adds: "When you step back, you see that the scenario being presented here is inherently unlikely. The scene of crime has been contaminated and the fact that there are inconsistencies between witnesses' accounts of timings is entirely normal - you get that in every case."

The defence case, he says, would focus on the passage of time involved, more than three weeks, before the car was hired and DNA could have been present. "This time gap allows for contamination."

------

...Simon Myerson, QC, a criminal barrister in Leeds, says: "There are several important questions to be asked here by any defence team. The first is: if this child's body was in the immediate vicinity for 25 days, why did nobody find it? This is bizarre."

Secondly, he says, was the question of motivation. "I can follow the scenario that one or both killed the child by accident and then covers it up. But to hide a body, and then three weeks later, without showing a sign of it, and with the world's media tracking their every move, for the couple to get the body into a car and get rid of it, then drive back again ... all without anyone seeing it ... it just seems so improbable."

Then there was the question of the cleaning of the car, he adds. If the car was not cleaned, and a body had been in it even for a short while, there should have been considerable DNA recovered. "But if it was cleaned, where is the evidence of that cleaning and how was it done without anyone seeing?"

Finally, a defence lawyer would question why the Portuguese police had allowed the car to be put back together after inspection - so allowing for continuing contamination, he says.

---

.....Robert Brown, a criminal defence solicitor, says that he was not convinced by the suggestion that the child had been accidentally killed. "Accidents do happen, but they are pretty rare." Nor is he so far convinced by the DNA evidence. "To what extent could this have been transferred? Scientists say it is a one in a million match - but they often mean: to that person - or his or her close relative. Madeleine's sister could have very similar DNA."

In his view, the suggestion that the couple, while "very much in the public eye", kept a body hidden, then disposed of it while "creating an enormous campaign as a diversionary tactic" did not ring true, he said. "You'd keep your head down and creep off to the woods rather than attract world-wide attention."

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/columnists/article2445831.ece?token=null&offset=12

[sharon]

I don't know. I hesitated to even post it because I can't tell if its the same person or not.
My husband sure thought I was nuts taking picutures of the TV screen. 
I have a DVD recorder but have no idea how to set it to record through satellite. 

vms -- my dh handles all the elctronics so, I'm embarrassed to say, I've been too lazy to figure out they all work together. Tivo DVR. DVD. Cable. Heck, after 20 years of marriage -- I'm not sure I know how to even use the remote control anymore 

IMO -- the SAME person in both of the pictures.

And as festa pointed out -- even the same clothes 

Hopefully klaas, you and all the other smart monkeys will figure out a way to get these pictures to someone who can find answers. Maybe it's nothing. But in this very strange and curious case -- I think you have uncovered something REALLY curious.

[vms]

I don't know. I hesitated to even post it because I can't tell if its the same person or not.
My husband sure thought I was nuts taking picutures of the TV screen. 
I have a DVD recorder but have no idea how to set it to record through satellite. 

vms -- my dh handles all the elctronics so, I'm embarrassed to say, I've been too lazy to figure out they all work together. Tivo DVR. DVD. Cable. Heck, after 20 years of marriage -- I'm not sure I know how to even use the remote control anymore 

IMO -- the SAME person in both of the pictures.

And as festa pointed out -- even the same clothes 

Hopefully klaas, you and all the other smart monkeys will figure out a way to get these pictures to someone who can find answers. Maybe it's nothing. But in this very strange and curious case -- I think you have uncovered something REALLY curious.

One day maybe I will learn how to operate all these electronics, lol.

My husband would think I'm more nuts for taking picutures instead of pictures. 

I went back and looked at my pics and one makes me think the guy on NG may not be him.

I'll upload them and post...

[vms]

[BlueKYGirl]

Maybe he's a friend of theirs--part of the group of "holidaymakers" at the resort (although I agree he's not really dressed the part).

[BlueKYGirl]

I say that because, in this picture, it looks like he's intimately aquainted with the McCanns--he's standing close and looking in the same direction, as if he's involved in whatever's going on.

As for the shirts that appear similar, if you look closely at the text on the front of his shirt in the playground shot, it curves down, sort of making an arc shape across the front of the shirt. In the other photos in which he appears to be wearing a similar shirt, the text looks like it's straight across the shirt.

I'm not saying it's not the same guy, but I don't think it's the same shirt. I also don't think he'd be standing that close to them if he didn't know them.

(Furthermore, If I were on a playground and saw that guy standing close to my kids, I'd leave).

[sharon]

One day maybe I will learn how to operate all these electronics, lol.

My husband would think I'm more nuts for taking picutures instead of pictures. 

I went back and looked at my pics and one makes me think the guy on NG may not be him.

I'll upload them and post...

What makes you think the guy may not be him? The shorts? (imo, the 'beer bellies' match -- jk )

In the pic on the playground it looks like he is wearing beige slacks with a jacket tied around his waist.

I'm not that good at this vms The pictures would need to be much clearer to really tell if it is the same person or not. And a professional (not me) should be looking at them.

But, imo, it is close enough to warrant a closer look.

I still have a hard time believeing there are 'coincidences' in a disappearance or murder. But you never know.......

[vms]

I say that because, in this picture, it looks like he's intimately aquainted with the McCanns--he's standing close and looking in the same direction, as if he's involved in whatever's going on.

As for the shirts that appear similar, if you look closely at the text on the front of his shirt in the playground shot, it curves down, sort of making an arc shape across the front of the shirt. In the other photos in which he appears to be wearing a similar shirt, the text looks like it's straight across the shirt.

I'm not saying it's not the same guy, but I don't think it's the same shirt. I also don't think he'd be standing that close to them if he didn't know them.

(Furthermore, If I were on a playground and saw that guy standing close to my kids, I'd leave).

From watching the video, he appeared to be "escorting" them, not really "with" them.
I don't know how to explain it.
I thought he was a police officer but that's just the impression I came away with.

[vms]

One day maybe I will learn how to operate all these electronics, lol.

My husband would think I'm more nuts for taking picutures instead of pictures. 

I went back and looked at my pics and one makes me think the guy on NG may not be him.

I'll upload them and post...

What makes you think the guy may not be him? The shorts? (imo, the 'beer bellies' match -- jk )

In the pic on the playground it looks like he is wearing beige slacks with a jacket tied around his waist.

I'm not that good at this vms The pictures would need to be much clearer to really tell if it is the same person or not. And a professional (not me) should be looking at them.

But, imo, it is close enough to warrant a closer look.

I still have a hard time believeing there are 'coincidences' in a disappearance or murder. But you never know.......

The one BlueKYGirl reposted just looks different to me but I am not good at this either, Sharon.
Hey, the pics are of such good quality. NOT! 

[Anna]

Could this guy be a member of the resort security?  I think that maybe they all wear black t-shirts is why they seem to be everywhere? 

But I do have to agree that he is attached to the group in the last photo.

Not that security guards are above reproach by any means but I do think that is who/what this is, a resort employee of some sort or other.  Who probably has or can get access to keys.

JMO
.

[MsVada]

Perhaps the bald man is an assigned bodyguard.

Maggie
Thats what I think also. 

[sharon]

Could this guy be a member of the resort security?  I think that maybe they all wear black t-shirts is why they seem to be everywhere? 

But I do have to agree that he is attached to the group in the last photo.

Not that security guards are above reproach by any means but I do think that is who/what this is, a resort employee of some sort or other.  Who probably has or can get access to keys.

JMO
.

Interesting thought Anna -- resort security.

Do you think the man in the NG picture and the man in the playground picture look alike? The pictures aren't great -- but they look similar enough, imo, to warrant a closer look. The angle of the jaw line......

Also -- when I saw some other pictures posted the other day, of the resort, and where the McCann's apartment was in relation to everything......it gave me the impression that it may be why Madeleine was 'targeted'. It appeared that it would be relatively easy (for a criminal) to get in and out from the 'back' without being seen. If someone (a criminal) had noticed that the McCann's went to dinner while the children remained in the aprtment...and the back of the apartment was somewhat remote......

just some random thoughts.

[Anna]

They don't look alike to me but I wonder if they are both resort employees who wear black t shirts.  The one on the playground is wearing the sunglasses so can't see where he is looking, could be over the children at something across the way.

I don't know if we have any contact information for PLE or not but wouldn't hurt to send it all to them, the photos.  Just to be sure they are aware of it.

Great catch VMS and all!

I tend to be more suspicious of the two males from the dinner party in the area and the parents and would like to know more about the father being acquainted with Muret the other suspect that has been named.

As with so many investigations, what we don't know and don't have access to could totally change our line of thought. 

I'm just on the fence with all this, don't know what to think.

.

[Maggie]

I think it is more likely a security guard or bodyguard rather than resort security. I think resort security is a little more casual; the ones here seem more intense.

[klaasend]

This is all they have up so far:



http://news.sky.com/skynews/home

[Maggie]

A Portuguese paper has obtained a leaked copy of Kate McCann’s diary, reports gibby zobel


Kate McCann complains frequently that her children are "hysterical" and says that Madeleine is a hyperactive child who tires her out to the point of despair in sensational details from what are claimed to be pages of her diary leaked to the Portuguese press.
An emergency order made yesterday to seize the diary has now been approved. But it transpires the Portuguese police had already photocopied key passages from the diary when they found it open on a table in the McCanns' villa in Praia da Luz - and some of these photocopied pages have been leaked to Correio da Manha.
Details of the night when Madeleine disappeared (May 3) are also described in the diary, according to the newspaper. Mrs McCann does not confess to any crime but she does describe the hours before the four-year-old went missing, according to the extracts. She writes about how her husband Gerry doesn't help with domestic duties and it falls on her to look after the children while he is always out on the tennis court or in the swimming pool.
Portuguese police are placing high emphasis on the contents of the diary, the newspaper reports. The Policia Judiciaria have yet to confirm whether an order has been made to seize Gerry McCann's Apple Mac computer or Madeleine's favourite toy, Cuddle Cat, as has been widely reported.
Family spokesman Justine McGuinness says the McCanns cannot talk about the latest developments because of their arguido - or formal suspect - status. "They are trying to observe the Portuguese law," she said.
It is also widely reported in the Portuguese press that police are likely to request that the McCanns return to Portugal soon. Also, Portuguese detectives are said to have asked British officers to execute a warrant to seize unnamed items from the McCanns' home in Rothley, Leicestershire, where they returned this week
 
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=8656

[MuffyBee]

Oh my.  Oh no.  I am thinking of some of the things parents or friends say or email among themselves when their kids are really pushing the limits.  Doesn't mean the parents are abusive.  Sometimes there are situations where children are high maintenance (I had two of those myself), or people have multiple young children or single parents or even with a Dad in the house that either travels, works a lot of hours or isn't interested in sharing domestic duties.  I can remember wishing for a hot meal or some sleep at times myself when my kids were young.  And if I had kept a diary, it might have said some hairy things.  An outlet.  How many of us say things in exhaustion, anger or frustration and really follow through?  And one of my sons who had problems when he was younger used to throw royal, screaming, kicking tantrums due to neurological problems and I would get people that would give me the "looks".  How many thought I was a bad parent?  They wouldn't know I had been up all night holding him and rocking him etc.  Yes, I know there are people out there that do horrendous things to children-we have cases right in SM threads. Yet there are many parents of children out there that just get tired and frustrated.  I  hope the things Kate may have said are not taken out of context. 

Kate may very well have gotten tired of shouldering the care of a 3 year old and 2 year old twins, especially if at 3 Madeleine was a handful (some kids don't do terrible 2's-they do 3"s) and if DH tennis playing Gerry didn't help out very much.  She may have vented in a diary or someone may have overheard her fussing.  Whew.  We aren't all saints with unlimited patience.  I know I'm not.  I yelled at my 16 yo son earlier this week after repeated attempts to get him to take out the trash.    If something happens to my son and my neighbors overheard this, maybe I should be worried.     This could be called verbal abuse, but then, son knows I love him and laughed about it later on.  He is a lot bigger than I am lol.  And no, I don't hit my son...

[bleachedblack]

Media can spread what is alleged to have been written by Mrs. McCann in her diary found in her private quarters and she as a suspect can say not a word about it? How unfair and IMPOSSIBLE is that?

[MuffyBee]

Madeleine McCann: Tycoons withdraw support

By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 4:39pm BST 13/09/2007
Page 1 of 3
Two millionaire businessmen who gave money to help find Madeleine McCann refused today to contribute to the legal fight to clear her parents' name.
The couple's official spokeswoman, Justine McGuinness, has also decided to step down, it emerged this afternoon. Exhaustion, and the McCanns' need for a PR adviser with more legal experience, are said to be behind her decision.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/13/nmaddy413.xml&page=3

[Puzzler]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag.....1&ct=5
Madeleine died 'after large sleeping pill overdose'
Last updated at 18:15pm on 13th September 2007

Madeleine McCann died of an overdose of sleeping pills, it was reported tonight.
A respected French newspaper said it had seen evidence that body fluids found in the boot of her parents' hire car proved the missing girl had been sedated.
France Soir said DNA analysis of the fluids showed the four-year-old had ingested larged quantities of sleeping pills.
The newspaper said it had seen "hard evidence", now in the hands of the Portuguese authorities, about Madeleine's "death".
France Soir has reported that Madeleine died of an overdose of sleeping pills
Guilhem Battut, an investigative journalist with the paper, said a report outlining how she died was already with Portuguese prosecutors.
He said scientific analyses of the fluids found in the car boot "prove that the little girl had ingested medicines, without doubt sleeping pills, in large quantities". These would have caused "an overdose", said Battut's report.
Other sources linked to the investigation have already said that police discovered "bodily fluids", not blood, with a match of at least 88 per cent match to Madeleine's genetic profile in the boot of her parents Gerry and Kate McCann's hired Renault Scenic.
Clumps of her hair were also reported to have been found in the boot in sufficient quantities to show that her body had been in it.
Scientifically, it would be possible to test such body fluids for traces of drugs, up to and including an overdose of sleeping pills.
 
Kate and Gerry McCann with their twins Amelie and Sean at the park yesterday
Meanwhile, Mrs McCann has invited social services to check on the welfare of Madeleine's twin brother and sister.
She is expected to be visited after telling social workers she wanted them to see that two-year-olds Sean and Amelie are not at risk.
The move came as Portuguese police revealed they want to re-interview Mrs McCann, who is now a suspect in her daughter's disappearance.
A distressed Mrs McCann, 39, today briefly left the family home in Rothley, Leicestershire, to collect the twins after a family friend took them for a walk. Relatives have gathered in the village to support the couple.
Mr McCann's older brother John, 48, said: "Kate has invited social services to make sure everything was okay, that was at her behest."
Leicestershire County Council said it could not comment on individual cases.
Portuguese detectives could travel to Britain to quiz Mrs McCann.
She was interviewed twice last week and formally declared a suspect after police told her they believed she had killed Madeleine. Chief Inspector Oligario Sousa, police spokesman in the case, said "it is not unlikely" that Mrs McCann will be questioned again.
But he refused to confirm when, claiming it was now a matter for the public prosecutor to arrange.
Mrs McCann will face 40 key questions about the night her daughter disappeared from their Algarve holiday apartment on 3 May.
She will have to detail her relationship with Madeleine and her movements since she vanished. The mother declined to answer many of the questions put to her by police in the presence of her Portuguese solicitor-Carlos Pinto de Abreu.
The doctor-is also expected to be quizzed about a diary police seized early last month. Officers have now asked the investigating judge to admit it officially as evidence.
Portuguese newspapers have claimed the diary shows Mrs McCann was abusive towards her children. Police are believed to think it will offer proof about her state of mind after the disappearance in Praia da Luz 133 days ago.
In an internet petition, more than 17,000 computer users demanded social services investigate the family for allegedly neglecting Madeleine.