Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[festa]

Madeleine McCann parents' new DNA hope
By Caroline Gammell
Last Updated: 1:16pm BST 13/09/2007


The world's leading expert in DNA cast doubt on a key facet of the alleged forensic evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann last night as he offered to act as an expert witness for the couple.
 
Sir Alec Jeffreys, who invented DNA fingerprinting, said a match did not necessarily demonstrate a person's guilt or innocence.

It follows claims that DNA samples matched to Madeleine had been found in her parents' hire car and holiday apartment. Sources said the traces were being treated by Portuguese detectives as strong evidence that Madeleine's body was placed in the car.

However, Sir Alec told BBC's Newsnight programme: "There are no genetic characters in Madeleine that are not found in at least one other member of the family.

"So then you have an incomplete DNA profile that could raise a potential problem in assigning a profile to Madeleine given that all other members of that family would have been in that car."

Sir Alec, 57, added: "DNA testing seeks to establish whether DNA sample A from a crime scene came or did not come from individual B.

"So if you get a match there's very strong evidence that it did come from B. It is then up to investigators, the courts and all the rest of it to work out whether that connection is relevant or not.

"So DNA doesn't have the words innocence or guilt in it - that is a legal concept. What it seeks to establish is connections and identifications."

Off-camera, Sir Alec said he was prepared to act as a witness for the McCanns.

His caution came as a leading genetics expert also called into question the value of DNA evidence in its own right. Dr Paul Debenham, a member of the advisory body the Human Genetics Commission, said there could be legitimate reasons as to how DNA from Madeleine found its way into the hire car.

Prosecutors would need to establish that it got there as part of a criminal process and not through chance contact, he said.

Dr Debenham said: "With the current highly sensitive DNA methodologies we can deposit DNA as a trace amount just from contact with a fabric. And that fabric can touch another surface where the DNA is passed on.

"So there is a situation where there is a legitimate or a possible explanation as to how the DNA got on the back seat despite the individual not being there, but through some legitimate transfer of garments, clothes or soft toy.

"It questions the value of that particular evidence in interpreting what happened."

-----------------
Philomena McCann, Mr McCann's sister, said she advised her sister-in-law to keep the diary to show Madeleine how much they loved her.

She told The Sun: " I said to Kate that it would be a good idea if someone wrote down, for Madeleine, notes on everything that was happening, because we have to prove to Madeleine how much we looked for her and how much we love her.

"That wee girl will be thinking, 'They're not looking for me. My mummy, daddy and my aunties - they don't love me because they can't find me'.

"I was just thinking about how insecure Madeleine would be, so Kate has been keeping that journal faithfully every day.

"She's been writing down everything that we've been doing so we can prove to Madeleine that we have worked so hard to try and find her, that we've put our lives on hold to search for her and show our love for her is unending."

Gerry's brother John McCann said last night that his brother believed the Portuguese police had "gone up a cul-de-sac".

He told BBC's The One Show: "Gerry keeps telling me that they have gone up a cul-de-sac and have lost track of what they should really be doing."

Asked whether the fact the case was being dealt with at such a high level in Portugal gave him confidence, he said: "It does and it doesn't. There is data out there, there's all these leaks.

"There is so much speculation going on as to what the actual information the Portuguese police have.

"If they have got something that suggests Madeleine really is dead then for goodness sake tell the family who have the strongest feeling for this."
 

[MuffyBee]

I don't think we ever found out who the biological parents of the 3 McCann children are.  It was reported the children were all IVF.  Sometimes there are egg or sperm donors or egg and sperm donors.  (whichever combination)  Would this make a difference in the DNA, as far as families go, as the specialist was remarking?   

[festa]

I don't think we ever found out who the biological parents of the 3 McCann children are.  It was reported the children were all IVF.  Sometimes there are egg or sperm donors or egg and sperm donors.  (whichever combination)  Would this make a difference in the DNA, as far as families go, as the specialist was remarking?   

Excellent point! MuffyBee - I would imagine if the donor was the same for all 3 then the DNA would be similiar with the 2 other children just as if they were the biological children both of Kate & Gerry - but I don't think that is probably the case, Just don't know - but very interesting good point to consider and I don't see where any of the experts touched on that -

[Rob]

Rob, don't mean to bug you - but I love your post/info -  In your searching do you see anything about Malinka being a convicted sex offender - this was mentioned early on - Oh and Malinka and Murat at first "forgot" they knew each other until police press them futher -
and 3 travel companions of the McCanns (I can't remember which at this moment) confronted Murat about his involvement, just an fyi -

Again, whether or not the McCanns are responsible for Madeleine's "disappearance", I still don't get why these two aren't being looked at for anything else - IF the child porn was true (maybe it was an incorrect "leak")- I would think the police would be curious as to why Malinka suddenly erased his HD -

Festa - I was checking on the Mirror Forum and someone deleted the thread where I asked if anyone has the link. I am positive I saw it there this morning. I suspect that thread with the link has also been deleted.

I have no idea why anyone would delete those threads. I only asked if anyone has the link. Poof Gone!

I guess those moonbats over there want them focused on Kate and Gerry. Maybe those are the type pf people that buy their paper. I have no idea why they deleted it.

If you remember back to the beginning of the case there was a massive world wide shake down of all the known pedophiles. And while a good thing, I doubt it would have happened had Madeleine not been missing. There could be something here or maybe not.. who knows. I think it is very interesting that Malinka is from Russia and a computer expert. Russia is where 90% of all child porn originates from.

He is suspicious... but not guilty of anything. If a pedophile ring did get Maddie, there ill never be any videos as they most likely killed her to keep the ring intact.

You also raise a very good point. If Malinka and Murat have nothing to hide why deny knowing each other? There must be something that Murat or Malinka did not want known.

Also, if you are drugging your children to make them sleep, why even check on them, you know they are passed out.

ohh and I also, believe that Malinka had a removable HD that was missing but I'll have to look on my blog for that link. I think I may have that one.

I'll check when I get back... gotta fly for now... cya.

[festa]

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. One other sort of unusual situation here. These are in vitro babies...

BADEN: That's right.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... the two babies that they — and I guess that we don't know if they truly are both the biological parents of these — of Madeleine. So any blood that was found, would that have a DNA twist to it in terms of trying to determine...

BADEN: That would. When they say it matches Madeleine, how do they know what Madeleine's DNA is? They haven't found Madeleine. They don't know what her DNA is. And the parents would know whether or not it was his sperm and her egg, but...

VAN SUSTEREN: So there's another whole 'nother twist to it...

BADEN: That's another...

VAN SUSTEREN: ... that needs to be investigated.

BADEN: Another issue, yes.

[Helen Back]

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. One other sort of unusual situation here. These are in vitro babies...

BADEN: That's right.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... the two babies that they — and I guess that we don't know if they truly are both the biological parents of these — of Madeleine. So any blood that was found, would that have a DNA twist to it in terms of trying to determine...

BADEN: That would. When they say it matches Madeleine, how do they know what Madeleine's DNA is? They haven't found Madeleine. They don't know what her DNA is. And the parents would know whether or not it was his sperm and her egg, but...

VAN SUSTEREN: So there's another whole 'nother twist to it...

BADEN: That's another...

VAN SUSTEREN: ... that needs to be investigated.

BADEN: Another issue, yes.

Thanks Festa, for posting Dr. Baden's comments.  If I don't speak my mind, I think my head will explode! 

The McCann's have NOT demonstrated consciousness of guilt through their behavior of the last few months.  Quite the contrary, IMO.

As several have mentioned, results of DNA laboratory testing are not discussed in percentages.  There are chances of "so many" in a "million" etc.  It also may be stated as the number of corresponding alleles. 

Thank God for Dr. Baden, the voice of reason, as you must also have a control sample from Madeleine to "match" the results to.  Unless some of Madeleine's blood or tissue has been stored, or if there were DNA tests performed on samples from Madeleine in the past, I don't even know where you could obtain a "clean" reference sample for comparison.

I have no faith in the competence of the Portuguese police since they never sealed off the original crime scene, allowing it to be trampled.  Children who watch television know that this is not appropriate. 

Oh wait, they did it again!  What kind of investigation team would find such "damning evidence" as Madeleine's DNA in the rental car, and then give the "crime scene" back to the McCann's to drive around for the rest of their stay? 

Whatever has happened, the police have pretty well screwed up any "evidence" they have managed to collect. 

It's against their law to release information about an ongoing investigation, and now illegal for the McCann's to speak about their experience.  Yet, LOTS of information is being leaked to the Portuguese press.  Funny how none of it seems to be favorable to the McCann's.  Is any of this sounding familiar? 

I'm glad Kate's been writing in her diary.  After four months, it would be very difficult to determine the chronology of events if not written down.  I bet the ALE wish they had Beth's journal.

Who's looking for Madeleine?  IMO opinion, she was targeted and abducted.  Right on the coast......I wonder how many boats were in the area that evening?   

There.........I feel better now.

Helen

[festa]

This is an older piece of news 5/14, but has something regarding the in vitro and DNA - also an allegation that was made about the McCanns suggesting that they were "swingers" that was later dismissed as a blogger's writings - Also I didn't know that the McCanns claimed that they thought a CCTV system was in place in the resort watching - I find that curious that they would just make that assumption - if you were leaving your kids based on that wouldn't you check?

Translating extracts from a piece of news from the Correio da Manha newspaper, put online last midnight (…)2007-05-14 - 00:00:00


DNA Test: Gerry McCann was investigated
Hair [analysis] clears Maddie’s father

Little Maddie’s hair were recovered by experts at the flat were the girl was kidnapped from, at Praia da Luz, and the DNA exams have confirmed the Polícia Judiciária [crime investigation police] the paternity of Gerry McCann. A situation that was raised by the inspectors, since Maddie was created in vitro [so are her two twin brothers] - and thus was her father removed from the suspect list in which, Correio da Manhã knows, are friends of the family and other Britons at the Ocean Club hotel.

All the McCann family’s past was scanned by the Police, in cooperation with Scotland Yard, and some of Maddie’s hair, the sole of the (child’s) traces found at the flat where she slept when she was taken, 11 days ago, have cleared doubts. On Thursday, Gerry was questioned for 14 hours, but his eventual part in the crime would have been now put aside.

Correio da Manhã knows the main (suspicions) rely on the British community at the Ocean Club hotel and the revenge scenario in under the spotlight. All of the McCann couple past was scanned, but the Police doesn’t find in the two (doctors’ jobs) the motive for reprisals. Also the life of their friends who came along for vacations, aswell as personnel and other Britons in the hotel is being scanned.

(Motive for) the crime, as Correio da Manhã reported yesterday, would have been by now established, the Police believing that at any moment Madeleine may be recovered (…) great doubt remains whether the child is still alive and where she is being kept in captivity.

Meanwhile, yesterday, no interrogations would have taken place by the Police, for the first time in three days, even(_)though the authorities carry on the research. The Police has entered a new step in the investigation where work is less visible but more productive, since it is following solid data.

At a time when several dozens of initial leads have been discarded, the investigators are focusing on tracking eventual suspects, which remain free.

Correio da Manhã has also (acknowledged) that Madeleine’s parents, by leaving their three children asleep alone during diner every day, were convinced the hotel was watched by a CCTV system. At least, this was the version they gave the inspectors for their behaviour, which raised, in the first days following the kidnapping, the possibility of being prosecuted for negligence.

(…)

( Polícia Judiciária) DENIES SWING

“There are those who guarantee that this couple had swing habits (…) sexual relations between couples”, told yesterday crime expert [former Police investigator] Barra da Costa, in RTP [public TV service]. This practice - swinging - could “result a revenge against the couple accomplished in the kidnapping” - added the crime expert, who didn’t reveal the source but assured it was a “knowledgable” person.

A source close to the investigation categorically denied to Correio da Manhã the information that the couple had that sort of sexual habit. “It was a falsity (broadcast) by an English blog”, stated the same source.

(Joao’s comments below ~ Ed.)

Hotel rooms watched by CCTV. That’s rather thin.

Barra da Costa is a highly credited crime expert. Definitely can’t see him throwing in a false spicy detail just for the kicks of it, to be later denied by the very Police. This dazzling, contradicting info is probably intended by the investigators.

I suppose this is good news: (complex) mind games are to be expected when there is (realistic) hope for recovering kidnapped people alive.

I expect people to now understand why the Police hasn’t so far publicly issued a real sketch of the suspect. It’s completely counterproductive to do so in a case like this. It would only serve to alert the kidnappers and put the child’s life at even greater risk. Good for bank robbers but not for kidnappers.

I hope Madeleine is alive and will be freed, that she won’t remember what she went through, that Justice will be served and that one day someone makes a good movie on this investigation…

I’m sure that movie will get made either way, Joao. I just hope it has a happy ending. Much thanks for the translation and the commentary. It’s just after midnight here in Georgia, U.S.A. — Boa noite.

UPDATE 2, 4:28 p.m. ET (USA), 5/14/2007


As has been discussed in the comments left on this entry for the better of the afternoon (afternoon here in the States, that is), Robert J. Murat, a British/Portuguese man who has been helping the English-speaking media in Portugal during the investigation into Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, is currently being questioned by the Polícia Judiciária.

A villa just 160 yards from where Madeleine was last seen is also being searched, reports icLiverpool.co.uk. The police activity around the house under investigation was described as “intense.”

Journalists on the scene became suspicious of Murat early this week.

Apparently Murat has been “inserting” himself into the investigation. This is a well-known phenomenon in high-profile crimes all over the Western world, and probably the Eastern, too — there are people who want to be cops, people who think they are cops; there are people who claim to be the abductor and (God forbid), the killer. Sometimes the person doing the “inserting” is indeed the criminal being sought.

Robert Murat could simply be John Mark Karr, Anglo-Portuguese style. Karr was the pasty-faced wannabe transgendered pedophile who managed to convince a college professor who’d produced documentaries about JonBenet Ramsey that he, Karr, was JonBenet’s killer. He wasn’t, though. He was a sad, sick man who may well one day end up in jail for crimes against children, but I doubt the crimes will rise to the level of homicide.

There are posts in the comments below with links relevant to Murat — one I found quickly thanks to a comment left was this page, where you can see Murat’s hotmail address.

If he still uses it, he won’t for long.

There may well be further links available relative to Mr. Murat and his mother, Jenny, who has been active in and around Praia da Luz in the search for Madeleine, but I will not post them until Murat’s relationship to the investigation is clarified. The British and Portuguese press both seem enlivened by this development — but after John Mark Karr, any press-watcher or journalist here in the U.S. would be wary of this guy. At least I hope they would.

[festa]

Don't you think the police have suspected these parents from the beginning? And the leaks to the press, aren't they planned carefully as to when it's released and  the content?  I was the first here to express how negligent I felt these parents were in leaving the kids alone, but I have also seen that they are not alone in their thinking, they are not the only parents that have done this, doesn't make it right, but it does happen, unfortunately.  I have felt that as physicians they should have known better, they're intelligent people, and they should know how quickly an accident can occur and how much time is of the essence in an emergency.  I've also asked WHY didn't they use the babysitting facility that was available?  IDK, but apparently others in their party also left the kids alone, other physicians.  Which brings me to, why didn't they take turns babysitting with such a large group? Each couple take a night's turn to babysit the kids, seems fair right?  I've posted this in the early days. Would sedation be better than the on grounds babysitting facilitiy?  ???? IDK - but I think all of these reasons helped to make the police question and suspect the parents - I think they suspected them from day one until now - I hope they didn't do it - I think it would be very difficult for them to pull this off, especially without any outside help - if they did, I think others would have to be involved, AGAIN, they are not home, they didn't have a vehicle - they don't know people here - only their travel companions AND again, why would they risk their careers/lives over this -

[festa]

i asked this yesterday regarding the "how much wine" and why didn't the police just check the bill - (someone else mentioned that it didn't much matter because they could have drank earlier and nothing tells WHO exactly drank and how much, good point) but here is something I found in my travels on that topic - It is second hand from a Court TV blog:

from timesonline:

"How much alcohol did the McCanns and their friends drink on the evening Madeleine disappeared?

Kate and Gerry McCann and their friends are reported to have told detectives they shared four bottles of wine, with another two barely touched before Madeleine was discovered missing.

However, it is claimed detectives have recovered a bill showing they downed eight bottles of red wine and six white during the afternoon and evening. "

[Angiex911dsptchr]

Don't you think the police have suspected these parents from the beginning? And the leaks to the press, aren't they planned carefully as to when it's released and  the content?  I was the first here to express how negligent I felt these parents were in leaving the kids alone, but I have also seen that they are not alone in their thinking, they are not the only parents that have done this, doesn't make it right, but it does happen, unfortunately.  I have felt that as physicians they should have known better, they're intelligent people, and they should know how quickly an accident can occur and how much time is of the essence in an emergency.  I've also asked WHY didn't they use the babysitting facility that was available?  IDK, but apparently others in their party also left the kids alone, other physicians.  Which brings me to, why didn't they take turns babysitting with such a large group? Each couple take a night's turn to babysit the kids, seems fair right?  I've posted this in the early days. Would sedation be better than the on grounds babysitting facilitiy?  ???? IDK - but I think all of these reasons helped to make the police question and suspect the parents - I think they suspected them from day one until now - I hope they didn't do it - I think it would be very difficult for them to pull this off, especially without any outside help - if they did, I think others would have to be involved, AGAIN, they are not home, they didn't have a vehicle - they don't know people here - only their travel companions AND again, why would they risk their careers/lives over this -

  FESTA...  Great post !! I agree. why not take turns babysitting? Also I have thought.. why not take the kids all out with them to dinner?
All parties to a family place for dining..children included? I can't imagine ever have leaving my kids alone when they were tots.
 The thought of sedation sickens me.. and I hope its not true.

[pdh3]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the McCann's are guilty. It makes no sense to me that they would kill their daughter. Doctors know the correct dosage of medicine, especially an anesthesiologist/ GP, if Madeleine were even given anything at all. If she died accidentally, then why hide it? That makes no sense either. And to say that the McCanns hid the body for days and days, and then buried her is really far-fetched. A decomposing body has a strong smell. Did no one notice that smell? It permeates everything. How would they know where to hide the body in a foreign country so that it would not be discovered? The logistics of such a thing would be almost impossible to do without being seen. And how would they get a shovel to bury her? Did they go out and buy one with no one noticing?
I think Portugal wants to railroad the parents to protect their tourism dollars, and maybe to protect a child porn ring in which govt officials may be involved. Maybe Aruba has influenced my thinking, but I can't see how the McCanns could have pulled it off. And why would their friends help them cover up the death of a child? As much as I love my friends, I'd never risk everything to help a friend cover up the death of one of their kids. I know that some people do, but most wouldn't, and these are educated, professional people with a lot to lose. What's in it for them? I can't see anyone needing to cover up an accident anyway, if that's what the Portuguese LE is trying to say was the cause of death.
Am I missing something? The Portuguese LE's theory just doesn't add up. It sounds too much like the Natalee died from overdosing on cocaine it was an insurance scam Natalee ran away because she's pregnant...that kind of far-fetched  cover-up crime-solution to keep the tourist dollars flowing and the payola intact. There's a reason that Murat and his friend Malinka were in Portugal at the height of the tourist season, also.
Portugal just wants to close the case. Otherwise....why back off their best suspects, and focus on the parents with this hiding the body plot?
Just IMHO. It wouldn't be the first time a parent killed a child, certainly, but the way the Portuguese LE are saying this happened is not really plausible to me.
On the other side of the diary thing....it's much healthier for a parent to write out frustrations in a diary than it is to take them out on children. Maybe she used it as that....an outlet. Being the busy Mom of 3 toddlers is exhausting and frustrating, even as you love and cherish every minute. I've been there, and I used a journal to express myself. I have never, ever spanked any of my kids, but I have yelled at times. No parent is perfect, and we all make mistakes, but being frustrated and expressing it in a journal is a long way from killing a child and hiding a body.

[Angiex911dsptchr]

If there was an on ground babysitting facility available..  IMO  those who would be in charge of babysittings would have to have at least had to go through backgrounds checks to be responsible for others children? My daughter recently got a job as a pre~school assistant teacher.. they checked her up and down.. inside and out. She called me for every dang address we ever resided at since she was born.
 I get behind keeping up here.   

[vms]

Just thought this was interesting...


published in Sol, on June 30, 2007
an article by Felicia Cabrita and Margarida Davim

Madeleine Case
Pact of Silence

Snipped

The image of Madeleine – big blue, questioning eyes and an innocent smile, fixed on the photographic films – is always present. It doesn’t leave the conversations of whom passes by. One remembers the words that the mother, Kate Healy, is supposed to have said to a friend (and that the husband, Gerry McCann, did not know): “I had a bad premonition about my children, when I found out the Ocean Club had no baby listening service”.

The choice of Algarve as a holiday destination would come to change their lives. Everything was arranged with three other couples, with whom they used to travel. Some of them had recently been to Greece, with their children, and the Mark Warner agency, the same that prepared their trip to the Algarve, had done their itinerary for the islands. According to their reports, the hotel where they stayed had a baby listening service – a service that is assured by four or five members of staff who would control the children while the adults dined, by listening through doors and windows to confirm that everything inside was quiet.

At the Tapas bar, from bartenders to staff from the Kid Club, criticism is whispered: “We have a creche where they left their children for most part of the day, where they could be until 11.30 p.m. without spending another Euro. They could also have used our baby-sitters, who stay with the children in their rooms until 1 p.m. In this case, they would have to pay an extra fee, but these people looked like they could afford it”, an employee comments, concluding that “this was a very strange group, that never stayed with their children”.

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=284488&highlight=madeleine+case+pact+silence#284488

[festa]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1661684,00.html

Relations between the family and the Portuguese police were difficult from the first hours. Police believed that, like most missing young children, Madeleine had simply wandered off and would soon be found. Crucial time was lost to that assumption. The Spanish border is less than two hours from Praia da Luz, yet authorities did not search cars leaving Portugal or distribute a description of the girl.
-------
I found this interesting - The police didn't initially actively look for her, but it seems the McCanns wanted them to - They didn't think, or agree that perhaps she did wander off - They felt she was taken/abducted - They were inviting a search - Would you accidentally kill your children and then invite a search for her?  Why persist in this?  It doesn't make sense to me at all -
----------------

There is no definate answers here - only the Portugal police "leaks" - this article indicates that they still have no definate answer to 4 or 14 bottles of wine - this says the 4 is what the McCanns stated (I've seen that they also said they had 2 more they hadn't touched yet) the 14 was published in the press, ???, from what source, the secret leak source???(I know it doesn't matter because we don't know who drank, but really can't they just say we have the receipt this is what is on it, I know they can't)
-------------

[Tamikosmom]

If there was an on ground babysitting facility available..  IMO  those who would be in charge of babysittings would have to have at least had to go through backgrounds checks to be responsible for others children? My daughter recently got a job as a pre~school assistant teacher.. they checked her up and down.. inside and out. She called me for every dang address we ever resided at since she was born.
 I get behind keeping up here.   

Hi Angie

I agree.  My youngest son and wife are public school teachers in our local school district.  They returned from Israel last week but ... Teachers on Call took over their respective classrooms.  Apparently their yearly criminal check report had not yet been received by the district coordinator.  Thankfully ... it was received on Monday ... so all is right with the world.

Also ... my hubby and I are teaching a boys Grade 3 Sunday School at a church we have attended for the 35 year and ... we are not exempt from this requirement. For the past six years all teachers/ pastors/ assistance/ leaders/ caregivers/ nursery workers  are required to have a yearly report submitted to the church administration and ... this report does not come cheap ... twenty bucks.

 

Janet

[festa]

One remembers the words that the mother, Kate Healy, is supposed to have said to a friend (and that the husband, Gerry McCann, did not know): “I had a bad premonition about my children, when I found out the Ocean Club had no baby listening service”.

According to their reports, the hotel where they stayed had a baby listening service – a service that is assured by four or five members of staff who would control the children while the adults dined, by listening through doors and windows to confirm that everything inside was quiet.

At the Tapas bar, from bartenders to staff from the Kid Club, criticism is whispered: “We have a creche where they left their children for most part of the day, where they could be until 11.30 p.m. without spending another Euro. They could also have used our baby-sitters, who stay with the children in their rooms until 1 p.m. In this case, they would have to pay an extra fee, but these people looked like they could afford it”, an employee comments, concluding that “this was a very strange group, that never stayed with their children”.

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=284488&highlight=madeleine+case+pact+silence#284488

This is what I have been saying since day 1 that doesn't make sense to me - they had facilities/services - why didn't they use them?  - I keep going over and over it, especially being that they were physicians - I can understand perhaps not wanting to use the creche, because then you have to gather the children and take them to the room, and perhaps their children wouldn't easily go off to sleep after that, BUT to have in room service available - I thought perhaps they didn't want to spend the extra, but seeing here that it was included, ???? IDK, and they weren't the only ones in the group to do this -

For years I have gone on a cruise in the spring, an island resort in summer with my husband, 3 kids and my parents - On the cruise we let the children go to scheduled activities that they wanted to during the day (believe me, it took a lot for me to give in but after visiting the facilities I agreed, but I checked up on them,) and they had the same available at night, the kids go go into this huge room and do crafts and watch a movie - if they were older they were escorted to the show for the evening if it was appropriate  - At the resort they have the same sort of activities available with counselors, but I don't go out at night there, we all had dinner together and then my parents and husband go to the casino and I babysit (the kids in their room, me in the next, adjoining door open)  During the day we all watched the kids (my mother and I especially) like hawks - I didn't have alone time, but believe, when they're gone away to school or on their own, you remember those times as the good times...

[festa]

Correio da Manha claimed Mrs McCann wrote in the diary that her children are 'hysterical' and exhausted her.

It also claimed her husband gave her little help with family chores.

It added: 'She complains frequently that her children are “hysterical” and speaks of Madeleine as a child whose excess activity exhausts her.

She tells also how Gerry doesn't help her with the family chores and that she has to cope alone with her two youngest children.'

The daily Publico claimed Mrs McCann's worries about her children's behaviour and her difficulties disciplining them were contained in the diary.

Sources close to the McCanns said they were not aware of police plans for a second interrogation.

'This is speculation, not fact,' said one.




If these quotes/writings are true or not - So what? - people write down things to get it out - she didn't beat her children - IF true, she wrote she was exhausted (join the club) and her children were "hysterical", her husband doesn't give much help (again, join the club, mine travels, a lot) Again, we don't know what the diary says, but if this is their "leak" info, so what?   She had difficulty disciplining her children, Isn't that a plus?, I mean it doesn't say, "I just got finished beating them and put them to bed" - unless she says in there that she killed her child, this is rubbish (as the British say)

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and in response to what pdh3 wrote regarding the accidental overdose and the McCanns having medical knowledge especially if Kate is/was an anethesiologist - I agree it does seem curious that could overdose the children - the only thing I could say is IF they did have something to do with her death "accidentally" perhaps it was a reaction the child had to the sedative - perhaps it was some new sedative she was given, or the child ingested something else that mixed poorly with it - IDK, I still want to believe they had nothing to do with this - I can't see how they could have done all of this within this foreign country with the eyes of the world upon them - AND go about campaigning for her safe return without ever buckling - speaking constantly to the police, in England and in Portugal - to the press - meeting the Pope (aren't they religious, wouldn't this have certainly made them crack, to lie to his divine holiness)  and their parents, family and friends - the lied for months to them? I cannot believe this, until I see proof positive otherwise -

[Angiex911dsptchr]

If there was an on ground babysitting facility available..  IMO  those who would be in charge of babysittings would have to have at least had to go through backgrounds checks to be responsible for others children? My daughter recently got a job as a pre~school assistant teacher.. they checked her up and down.. inside and out. She called me for every dang address we ever resided at since she was born.
 I get behind keeping up here.   

Hi Angie

I agree.  My youngest son and wife are public school teachers in our local school district.  They returned from Israel last week but ... Teachers on Call took over their respective classrooms.  Apparently their yearly criminal check report had not yet been received by the district coordinator.  Thankfully ... it was received on Monday ... so all is right with the world.

Also ... my hubby and I are teaching a boys Grade 3 Sunday School at a church we have attended for the 35 year and ... we are not exempt from this requirement. For the past six years all teachers/ pastors/ assistance/ leaders/ caregivers/ nursery workers  are required to have a yearly report submitted to the church administration and ... this report does not come cheap ... twenty bucks.

 

Janet

 HI Yah Janet     Thats awesome about you and hubby teaching     

[Helen Back]

To be clear, my feeling from the beginning was that Madeleine was taken, and the McCann's were desperately searching for her.  I certainly hope they are not responsible for her disappearance, but it wouldn't be the first time a family menber was responsible.  Would I have left my children alone while I went to dinner?  Absolutely not.  They made a terrible mistake in that decision. 

What concerns me is the shoddy way the investigation has been conducted.  No crime scenes have been preserved.  If it could be determined that Madeleine's DNA has been found in the car, everyone who has had access to the car is a suspect, until ruled out.  If it can be determined that Madeleine's DNA was found in the apartment, everyone who had access to the apartment and to Madeleine is a suspect until ruled out.  Because the Portuguese police failed to preserve either of these crime scenes, the list of suspects is infinitely longer than it should be.  The family and friends should have been ruled out early on.  If they could not be eliminated as suspects, they should not have been allowed to travel.  The police work in this investigation has been terrible.  For these reasons, I am not comfortable with the "leaks" coming from the press.  I would be more comfortable with the suspicions being cast on the family if the investigation was credible and if these questions had come up earlier on.  It's pitiful to imagine that this family is enduring more heartache simply because the police acted irresponsibly.

[klaasend]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283987,00.html

'Girl's Case May Solve McCann Mystery'
By Alex Watts
Sky News Online
Updated: 00:03, Friday September 14, 2007

Portuguese detectives should ditch their "ludicrous" case against Gerry and Kate McCann and re-open the investigation into a girl who disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine.
 
That is the opinion of a top British crime expert, who believes there are far too many similarities between the two cases for it not to be a strong line of police inquiry.

Former detective Mark Williams-Thomas, now a leading child protection specialist, said: "I can't accept that Gerry and Kate as parents of the child could have been involved in her murder - even based on the fact that over 90% of murders are domestic-related.

"What I have difficulty in understanding is they would have killed her and stored her body for at least 25 days and left no evidence.

"At the very least the body would have started to decompose, especially in a hot country. And there was a huge risk of someone finding that body."

He believes the answer to the case may lie in the disappearance of an eight-year-old Portuguese girl in 2004.

Joana Cipriano vanished from a village just seven miles from Praia da Luz, where Madeleine disappeared.

Neither body has been found.

Joana's mother and uncle were jailed for her murder, but five police officers have now been accused of forcing false confessions from them.

Williams-Thomas believes that because of the huge doubts over the convictions, whoever abducted Joana is more than likely to be behind Madeleine's disappearance.

 
Joana vanished in Figueira He says he cannot understand why police are pursuing their "ludicrous" investigation into the McCanns, when such a strong line of inquiry remains open.

He added: "There's not a single case in the UK where two children who are unknown to each other have been abducted or disappeared within a period of four years in a seven-mile radius.

"On that basis it has to be a serious line of inquiry to eliminate it as a huge coincidence.

"Portugal is a small country with very, very few abductions so two young girls vanishing out of thin air with their bodies never being recovered is something that needs to be investigated."

Joana vanished on September 12, 2004, after setting off from home in the village of Figueira to collect groceries. She never returned.

Like Madeleine McCann's case, the police investigation got off to a bad start. They failed to seal off the house where she was last seen.

Joana's mother Leonor and her brother Joao were jailed for 16 years for her murder.

But they claim they were set up and police have been named as suspects in their "torture".

Leonor alleges police beat her to make her confess. A photograph of her heavily-bruised face was published in Portuguese newspapers.

She says the interrogation took place without her lawyer present and without the knowledge of the public prosecutor.

 
Mark Williams-ThomasPolice claimed Joana discovered Leonor and her brother having sex when she returned with the groceries.

They said the pair were afraid Joana would tell what she saw and killed her.

Williams-Thomas says because of the doubt over the safety of the convictions, the case should be re-opened.

But to compound the Madeleine investigation further, a senior detective in the hunt is one of the five officers alleged to have extracted the confessions.

Goncalo Amaral, who is number three in the Madeleine inquiry, and his officers have been accused of torture, omission of evidence, and falsification of documents.

Portugal's Ministerio Publico has not revealed who has been accused of which offence.

Williams-Thomas said: "This casts huge doubt in my mind about the integrity of the investigating officer.

"Even if we work on the basis that he is innocent, given this allegation against him, he shouldn't have anything to do with the Madeleine investigation."

He stressed: "There are so many similarities between the cases, it has to be eliminated.

"Therefore to consider solely Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects rather than considering all the options is ludicrous."

The former detective also heavily criticised the Portuguese police inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance.

 
Forensics tests at Madeleine apartmentCommenting on their emergency application to seize Gerry McCann's laptop computer and reportedly even Madeleine's favourite toy Cuddle Cat, he said: "I think it's amazing that they haven't already seized them.

"This is the whole problem with the case. They are treating Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects but aren't dealing with them as suspects.

"Why didn't they do that when she went missing? They are back-tracking.

"They are trying to recover the situation, forensically and evidentally, they lost at the first opportunity."

Another crime expert believes even if the police do charge the McCanns they will struggle to convict them - because Madeleine's body is still missing and there is no evidence that has been made public to suggest she is even dead.

Desmond Thomas, former deputy head of Hampshire CID and now a forensic management consultant, says he does not believe anyone will be found guilty unless a body or weapon is discovered.

He said: "I think the Portuguese police are struggling. Of course, we cannot be sure about exactly what is in the dossier they have prepared.

"But from what we know this far, if I was bringing the charges, I would be nervous about it being successful.

"The only way I can see anyone being successfully charged is if the body is found and they can link it clearly to them."

This may be some solace to the McCanns, but then Portuguese courts may have a different conviction rate to UK courts.

After all, detectives managed to "solve" Joana's murder, and there was no body or weapon found.