Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[MuffyBee]

I don't know what I believe about that...except that Kate may have been in a panic, and not thinking clearly. And I don't think it was all that far away.
The parents have stated that they thought the place where they were staying was very safe, and that they regret leaving the kids alone. As parents, we have all made mistakes in judgement while raising our children. Unfortunately, the McCanns mistake may have cost Madeleine her life. And didn't the other parents in the group also leave their kids alone? It seems that they all felt that the resort was safe enough for them to put their kids to bed and step away to have dinner. No one in the group was concerned....so all of them have to be charged with neglect because they all left their kids. In retrospect, it was a terrible idea, but maybe at the time it seemed perfectly ok.
I have some good friends who put their 4 kids to bed, and then walked around the neighborhood together every night, getting their daily exercise in. They were gone for over an hour, but checked in periodically. They are wonderful, caring parents, but they saw no problem with leaving their small children, because we live in a community that is considered very safe. If one of their children had disappeared, they would have been called negligent. I wouldn't have left my kids like they did, but these are good people who had a different standard for safety than I did. But I would not ever think they would knowingly harm their children. Some people just don't see the dangers that others do.
There are so many troubling things about the investigation, and how it was mishandled. I do think the parents should have been investigated, but not to the exclusion of other suspects, and other theories. I'm afraid that little girl will never be found due to all this chaos in the investigation.

But they haven't been investigated to the exclusion of other suspects and other theories.

[MuffyBee]

I don't know what I believe about that...except that Kate may have been in a panic, and not thinking clearly. And I don't think it was all that far away.
The parents have stated that they thought the place where they were staying was very safe, and that they regret leaving the kids alone. As parents, we have all made mistakes in judgement while raising our children. Unfortunately, the McCanns mistake may have cost Madeleine her life. And didn't the other parents in the group also leave their kids alone? It seems that they all felt that the resort was safe enough for them to put their kids to bed and step away to have dinner. No one in the group was concerned....so all of them have to be charged with neglect because they all left their kids. In retrospect, it was a terrible idea, but maybe at the time it seemed perfectly ok.
I have some good friends who put their 4 kids to bed, and then walked around the neighborhood together every night, getting their daily exercise in. They were gone for over an hour, but checked in periodically. They are wonderful, caring parents, but they saw no problem with leaving their small children, because we live in a community that is considered very safe. If one of their children had disappeared, they would have been called negligent. I wouldn't have left my kids like they did, but these are good people who had a different standard for safety than I did. But I would not ever think they would knowingly harm their children. Some people just don't see the dangers that others do.
There are so many troubling things about the investigation, and how it was mishandled. I do think the parents should have been investigated, but not to the exclusion of other suspects, and other theories. I'm afraid that little girl will never be found due to all this chaos in the investigation.

But they haven't been investigated to the exclusion of other suspects.  From the beginning it seemed she had been grabbed by someone and taken off.  There were these searches in neighbor countries and of course Murat is still considered  a suspect.  So actually, the McCann's are about third down the list on theories and suspects, behind Murat and a child porn ring.  The McCann's were the last to be seen with Madeleine and they weren't honest in the beginning about how often the children were checked on.  It wasn't every 30 min., and sometimes it wasn't even them, but a friend of theirs that didn't even really go in and look, but stood by the door and listened.  And when I first heard about the case, I thought the restaurant was like just across the way and could be clearly seen, but it is more than that etc.  There was so much PR up front, that I think the investigation got a little waylaid, and it has ended up hurting things.  The person that allegedly saw a man with a child in a blanket was one of the McCann's friends and it wasn't reported until much later.  It was a shoddy investigation to me in that the police didn't interview the McCann's and their friends fully, in the beginning.  I think the police thought it was someone else that grabbed Madeleine, which still may be. But they should have been fully interviewed to rule them out, and to find out any bits of information, which might not seem immediately important, but could play a part later on in the investigation.  Interviewing months later, people honestly forget details.    It is a mess and I really fear for Madeleine.  Yes, I think there has been some things the police should have been doing differently, but I think the McCann's shoulder part of the blame.  At the end of the day we are still asking "where is Madeleine?

[klaasend]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1285078,00.html

Criminal Has Furnace In The Algarve
Updated: 19:39, Thursday September 20, 2007

A criminal who cremates dead animals in a furnace behind his house in Portugal says he has been quizzed about missing toddler Madeleine McCann.
 
Eef Hoos, 61, says detectives repeatedly questioned him about whether he had ever met Madeleine's parents.

And he said officers had visited his heavily fortified villa in remote mountains in the Algarve where they asked about his animal cremations.

Dutchman Hoos, who has spent almost eight years in jail for planting bombs in the Netherlands, says police have now ordered him to attend their headquarters for questioning on Monday.

He said: "He asked me three times if I had spoken to the parents, I said I had not spoken to the parents.

"The other guy said he had seen that I had spoken to the parents."

 
The Dutchman explained he earned his living as a debt collector, but carried out animal incineration as a sideline in furnaces on wasteland on the slopes below his house.

Following complaints about the smell from neighbours he said he had closed down the furnaces in March this year.

Meanwhile Gerry and Kate McCann have met lawyers in London to prepare their defence against any possible charges.

Although they remain official suspects, Portuguese police say they have no plans to re-interview the couple in the near future.

But the McCanns want to be ready should the Portuguese authorities try to bring a case against them.

[Anna]

Associated Press
Madeleine Media Saga Makes Many Uneasy
By JILL LAWLESS 09.20.07, 2:05 PM ET

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/09/20/ap4140423.html

[Rob]

I believe the main reason for the McCanns receiving little sympathy boils down to they are doctors. They should have known better. If somehow they were in a league of professionals that should have known not to leave their kids. I think we should all know that.

We all know stories of people coming from Europe that leave their kids unattended while they go have a coffee. Someone posted a similar story to the one I posted a week or so ago. Same thing. So someone is leaving their children. But it is not the people on the boards. They are too concerned about their children to take their eyes off them for even one second while they type away all day long commenting on the case.
The Tapas 9 appears to all have done it and they are all doctors and one research fellow + one mother of an adult.

I do find it interesting when visiting some European boards the general mind frame is that no one ever leaves their kids alone. Yet we all know that this seems to be a European thing. I see people in the papers here that leave their kids in cars and abandon them. It seems more of a concerted effort to just neglect the child so the may attend a strip club, go drinking, etc. etc. etc.

In the McCanns case, it seems like the may be book smart, by blind to the possible evil that lurks. Or I'm totally wrong and they just don't care....jmo anyway

[Anna]

I see people in this country as well who will leave kids in a car and go into a store.  Not long ago I saw three little kids, one really a baby, all strapped into their seats while the mother ran in the drug store for something.  She even left the car running I suppose to keep the air conditioning going. 

And I do realize what a job taking three little kids in a store can be having been there and done that.  But I also know if I left them in a running car, one of them at least would attempt to drive away or do something equally terrifying.

And kids are found wandering around all the time in this country as well, unattended.  It will usually result in the parents getting in trouble, however. 

I have asked my British friend repeatedly if this is done commonly in the UK and she continues to insist that it once was by some but not these days with all the EU pedophile rings in the news and that she personally never did it at all even though her children are adults now.

The choking factor for two year olds would be as high in my mind as pedophiles as they do still have tendencies to put things in their mouths that don't belong there.  Well, mine did, also up their noses and in their ears like raisins which swell.

So I remain on the fence, willing to give the parents the benefit of the doubt but the pedophile ring was the first thing investigated and it basically went no where.  I would assume that LE all over the EU had people in every chat room and combing known sources, etc. like anything.  And nothing turned up.

Had the McCanns not had so many influential friends and such high powered PR support from the start I would tend to take what they say more at face value.  Just don't care to have my opinion professionally manipulated like this.  And I wonder why it was so necessary in the first place.  They continue to seek out and hire the highest level of PR possible as they seem more concerned with protecting themselves and their image than in what happened to Madeleine.

Just my opinion. . .

.

[Tamikosmom]

In my opinion ... the title of the article ... Portuguese police admit Madeleine MAY have been abducted after all ... is very misleading.  Also ... in reference to the opening paragraph implying that the Portuguese investigation is making a "U turn" ... it should be noted that the sources of this allegation are "unnamed".

Portuguese detectives have admitted ...

I contend ... there has never has been a statement made by a "named" source within the investigation which has claimed that the McCanns were the "only" focus in the disappearance of Madeleine and ... Prosecutor Luis Bilro ... an authorized spokesperson for the investigation ... is offering clarification.

Janet

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482811&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

Portuguese police admit Madeleine MAY have been abducted after all
Last updated at 19:35pm on 20th September 2007

Portuguese detectives have admitted that missing Madeleine McCann may have been abducted - after not finding enough evidence to to further question Kate and Gerry McCann.  In a dramatic u-turn police have once again reverted to earlier theories that the four-year-old may have been snatched or involved in an accident.

<snipped>

Prosecutor Luis Bilro Verao has made it clear all lines of inquiry, including kidnap or accident, are still open.

<snipped>

Prosecutor Verao, who was brought in to lead the case by Portugal's Attorney-General last week, said in a statement: "Fresh evidence justifying new interrogations has not been obtained since the original interrogations carried out on September 7. New interrogations have not been determined."

He added: "Inquiries are continuing. No line of investigation is ruled out."

[sharon]

You don't need that suit for protection from me, lol.

It could very well be the case. Not to mention if all the other couples were doing it somehow it becomes ok? That doesn't make sense. Acceptable because the others were doing the same?
I give up, lol. Hopefully you follow my drift.

I do get your drift

I think my mom used to say 'if you saw a friend jump off a bridge, would you think it was alright for you to jump off the bridge' or words to that effect 
 
I  have never been a follower. I have always danced to my own drummer (and I usually dance alone).

And I am the most over protective person I know. 

I used to do a lot of traveling (and I know many here have as well) and I have seen customs and practices that would leave me saying...wtf. But criminal intent was NOT the motive.

That was my only point.

And thanks, vms. Our weather here is still way too hot for that flame retardant suit.

[vms]

You don't need that suit for protection from me, lol.

It could very well be the case. Not to mention if all the other couples were doing it somehow it becomes ok? That doesn't make sense. Acceptable because the others were doing the same?
I give up, lol. Hopefully you follow my drift.

I do get your drift

I think my mom used to say 'if you saw a friend jump off a bridge, would you think it was alright for you to jump off the bridge' or words to that effect 
 
I  have never been a follower. I have always danced to my own drummer (and I usually dance alone).

And I am the most over protective person I know. 

I used to do a lot of traveling (and I know many here have as well) and I have seen customs and practices that would leave me saying...wtf. But criminal intent was NOT the motive.

That was my only point.

And thanks, vms. Our weather here is still way too hot for that flame retardant suit.

 

I agree on all points...

[Maggie]

My across the street neighbor's son left his two yr old in his suv while he ran in to his mother's house-I was working in the yard and didn't realize the child was in the car until I saw her standing at the wheel as the car rolled down the driveway, across the street, and into a tree. Thank God she wasn't injured.

[Puzzler]

Even if I thought the area was safe, I don't believe I would leave three small children (or even big children) asleep in a room and leave the door "unlocked".  Wasn't this a resort area?  People from all over would be coming into a resort area.  It's not like a neighborhood where you know those around you.

Did all the others leave their rooms "unlocked", too?

Also, how much "checking in on the kids" can be done if you're only stopping by a door to listen? 

Did those who just stopped by to listen do that because they assumed the door was locked?

Wonder how they came to the decision to forgo the free babysitting services available to them? Who was the first one to say...
no, we'll just take turns checking on them?

[Rob]

Puzzler, a good bit of what they did does not make sense and opens the door to thinking all kinds of things could be possible. I make no attempt at exonerating them. The McCanns should be prosecuted for neglect. That one is pretty simple.

However, will it be selective prosecution or will the whole Tapas 9 get the same treatment for the same offense? Minus the mother of the adult who didn't do anything wrong other than not voicing her concern that so many children were left unattended.

[vms]

Dutch criminal quizzed about Madeleine
Last updated at 18:52pm on 20th September 2007
 

A Dutch criminal who cremates dead animals in a furnace behind his house told today how detectives had quizzed him about the Madeleine McCann case.


Detectives repeatedly asked Eef Hoos, 61, who spent almost eight years in jail for planting bombs in the Netherlands, whether he had ever met Madeleine's parents.

Hoos, who lives in a run-down but heavily fortified villa in remote mountains in the Algarve said plain clothes police had been taking photographs in his girlfriend's garden early this morning.


Detectives leave the crematorium after further interviewing Hoos


He travelled to the local headquarters of the Policia Judiciaria, who are investigating the four-year-old's disappearance, to confront officers about the photographs, only to find himself asked about the McCann case.

Hoos told reporters earlier today that police had told him that they wanted to inspect his rusty backyard incinerator this afternoon.

Later today two men in dark glasses arrived in an unmarked car and refused to answer questions before walking through the turreted portcullis gates into the remote property.

They spent just 20 minutes inside and left taking documents about animal cremations before ordering him to attend the police HQ on Monday for more questions, he said afterwards.



Detectives leave the crematorium after further interviewing Hoos


Hoos, who said he does not know where exactly he was on May 3 other than that he was in the Algarve, said officers had asked him about the McCann case during their visit.

He said: "He asked me three times if I had spoken to the parents, I said I had not spoken to the parents, the other guy said he had seen that I had spoken to the parents, he said that he had heard that I had spoken to the parents of the girl."

The Dutchman explained later how he earned his living as a debt collector claiming to have travelled to Russia and China through his work but carried out animal incinerations as a side line in furnaces on wasteland on the slopes below his house.

Following complaints about the smell from neighbours he said he had closed down the furnaces in March of this year but added that he continued to carry out incinerations at a site in Lisbon.

As well as domestic pets - usually dogs - he said that he also picked up dead animals from the road for cremation.

Today he claimed that police had visited him numerous times before but that this was the first time he had ever been asked about the McCann case.

"Police have been here 20 or 30 times but not for the McCann case, they asked about the furnace."

Link

[Tamikosmom]

Even if I thought the area was safe, I don't believe I would leave three small children (or even big children) asleep in a room and leave the door "unlocked".  Wasn't this a resort area?  People from all over would be coming into a resort area.  It's not like a neighborhood where you know those around you.

Did all the others leave their rooms "unlocked", too?

Also, how much "checking in on the kids" can be done if you're only stopping by a door to listen? 

Did those who just stopped by to listen do that because they assumed the door was locked?

Wonder how they came to the decision to forgo the free babysitting services available to them? Who was the first one to say...

no, we'll just take turns checking on them?

Puzzler ... the McCanns claimed that they were uncomfortable leaving their children with a stranger and ... I can relate to that feeling.

A year ago when my hubby and I took our two eldest grandsons ... then 6/8 years of age ... to Disneyland ... we became friendly with a nice couple from Texas who we had met by the hotel pool.  We made a decision to out for dinner with them at a nice  restaurant located within the hotel.  The hotel had a baby-sitting service and ... we made the arrangement.  However ... both my hubby and myself did not feel comfortable thinking about leaving the boys with a stranger and ... within an hour those arrangements were cancelled and ... a serious game of Monopoly in our room was the evening's entertainment.  As much as it would have been nice to have had a decent meal for the first time in a week ... one that did not come from a fast food establishment ... there was no way we would have left those kids alone for any length of time ... asleep or awake ... it was never an option.

Janet

[vms]

Friday's Papers
Updated 22:56, Thursday September 20, 2007

The Daily Mirror says Gerry and Kate McCann are willing to take a lie detector test to clear their names and return the focus to the hunt for missing Madeleine.

[Rob]

I've seen a few differing accounts of what the babysitting actually cost.

1. it was free.
2. it was 10 pounds per night or roughly 20 dollars.
3. it was free on weekends.
4. it was group babysitting.

anyone actually know the real details here? TIA

Regardless, free or 10 pounds...it shouldn't be an issue opposed to leaving children alone.

[MuffyBee]

Rob this is one I found:
on: September 08, 2007, 09:07:41 PM
Started by festa, Message by MuffyBee
Relevance: 69.3%
MADELEINE: THE INCREDIBLE STORY MADELEINE:
snipped
On the evenings immediately prior to their daughter’s abduction, Kate and Gerry, along with their friends, dined without their children who were left, at least according to Pamela Fenn, a resident in a nearby apartment, screaming for their parents.
 
This despite holiday company Mark Warner offering professional babysitting for just £10-a-night. Had the wealthy Kate and Jerry opted to have all three children looked after for the duration of their holiday, it would have cost them just £140.

and this:  snipped
There are fears that Kate could be heading for the same dire situation as Leonor Cipriano, who was jailed for 16 years in Portugal three years ago for the murder of her own daughter.
 
Cipriano was convicted by the same detective, Goncalo Amara, who heads the hunt for Madeleine. Cipriano maintains that she was framed and the confession was beaten out of her during questioning.
http://www.express.co.uk/features/view/18573/Madeleine-The-incredible-story-

[Rob]

Muffybee- Thank you. I have seen that one. That article makes it all the more ludicrous that the McCanns would leave their kids alone. It indicates professional babysitting. I would assume these people have been screened and / or have some type of child care skills.

Simply saying you don't like leaving your kids with strangers somehow doesn't cut it if in fact it is a professional service.  jmo...

[MuffyBee]

Rob I've seen "free" in some other forums or under comments, but would have no links for those. 

[pdh3]

I don't know what I believe about that...except that Kate may have been in a panic, and not thinking clearly. And I don't think it was all that far away.
The parents have stated that they thought the place where they were staying was very safe, and that they regret leaving the kids alone. As parents, we have all made mistakes in judgement while raising our children. Unfortunately, the McCanns mistake may have cost Madeleine her life. And didn't the other parents in the group also leave their kids alone? It seems that they all felt that the resort was safe enough for them to put their kids to bed and step away to have dinner. No one in the group was concerned....so all of them have to be charged with neglect because they all left their kids. In retrospect, it was a terrible idea, but maybe at the time it seemed perfectly ok.
I have some good friends who put their 4 kids to bed, and then walked around the neighborhood together every night, getting their daily exercise in. They were gone for over an hour, but checked in periodically. They are wonderful, caring parents, but they saw no problem with leaving their small children, because we live in a community that is considered very safe. If one of their children had disappeared, they would have been called negligent. I wouldn't have left my kids like they did, but these are good people who had a different standard for safety than I did. But I would not ever think they would knowingly harm their children. Some people just don't see the dangers that others do.
There are so many troubling things about the investigation, and how it was mishandled. I do think the parents should have been investigated, but not to the exclusion of other suspects, and other theories. I'm afraid that little girl will never be found due to all this chaos in the investigation.

But they haven't been investigated to the exclusion of other suspects.  From the beginning it seemed she had been grabbed by someone and taken off.  There were these searches in neighbor countries and of course Murat is still considered  a suspect.  So actually, the McCann's are about third down the list on theories and suspects, behind Murat and a child porn ring.  The McCann's were the last to be seen with Madeleine and they weren't honest in the beginning about how often the children were checked on.  It wasn't every 30 min., and sometimes it wasn't even them, but a friend of theirs that didn't even really go in and look, but stood by the door and listened.  And when I first heard about the case, I thought the restaurant was like just across the way and could be clearly seen, but it is more than that etc.  There was so much PR up front, that I think the investigation got a little waylaid, and it has ended up hurting things.  The person that allegedly saw a man with a child in a blanket was one of the McCann's friends and it wasn't reported until much later.  It was a shoddy investigation to me in that the police didn't interview the McCann's and their friends fully, in the beginning.  I think the police thought it was someone else that grabbed Madeleine, which still may be. But they should have been fully interviewed to rule them out, and to find out any bits of information, which might not seem immediately important, but could play a part later on in the investigation.  Interviewing months later, people honestly forget details.    It is a mess and I really fear for Madeleine.  Yes, I think there has been some things the police should have been doing differently, but I think the McCann's shoulder part of the blame.  At the end of the day we are still asking "where is Madeleine?

I was not saying that no one else was ever investigated. I'm aware of Murat and Malinka, etc. I was agreeing that the parents should be investigated, but the same focus needs to be on all possibilities, however improbable. When investigators lose their objectivity, it's hard to solve crimes. They need to go where the evidence takes them, but in this case, even the evidence seems questionable.
Are the McCanns trying to save themselves, or redirect the investigation on finding Maddie, because they are innocent?