Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Kermit]

Janet wrote: "If and ... I say if ... any of the friends were involved in a coverup ... I would suspect that it was not because of any "hold" the McCann's had over them but ... out of a misguided sense of loyalty to their friends.  It was a plan put into action without first considering the consequences ... without first considering the possible outcomes."

Janet, these are intelligent people. I don't believe that the friends supported the McCanns out of a misguided sense of loyalty or that they did so without considering the consequences  ... unless they were totally convinced by the McCanns that Madeleine was abducted. They allowed themselves to become accomplices.

Louise ... I do not understand your reasoning.  If the McCann's were convinced that Madeleine was abducted ... how would they become accomplices?

I believe you give the McCanns and their friends too much credit in regards to intelligence.  It was a very unwise ... downright stupid ... of all of them to leave their precious children alone ... out of earshot ... defenceless against unforeseen dangers ... for any length of time.  One of the McCann's  friends claimed he checked on his sick daughter ... changed her sheets and ... returned to the Tapa bar. 

Louise ... my 9 year old grandson is aware that younger children should not be left alone.  I was about to drive Zach to a birthday party when he became very upset.  He thought I was going to leave his younger brother (4) in the house alone while I made the 5 minute drive to his friend's home.  Unknown to him his father had come home earlier and ... was in the computer room.

This incident with my grandson took place last week and ... I immediately thought about the McCanns and their friends.

Louise ... the friends of the McCann each made an unwise regretable decision to leave their precious children alone ... maybe ... just maybe ... out of a misguided sense of loyalty ...

Hey ... I do not know but ... considering the PLE's interest in their inconsistent statements ...

Janet

There is a program about a mother and father who have 8 children (6 born on the same day) and they went on a 4th of July parade, then over to their friends home. A couple of the children were alseep, so they left them in the car which was parked in the driveway of the home with the doors open and went in the back yard with the rest of the children and later checked on the kids in the car.

[Nut44x4]

I swear I just do not understand people.
The more I know, the less I understand...unreal.

[Rob]

Kerm, I just watched that show and was thinking the same as you... some people just don't get it and it was totally 'over their heads' . . .

[Tamikosmom]

Janet wrote: "If and ... I say if ... any of the friends were involved in a coverup ... I would suspect that it was not because of any "hold" the McCann's had over them but ... out of a misguided sense of loyalty to their friends.  It was a plan put into action without first considering the consequences ... without first considering the possible outcomes."

Janet, these are intelligent people. I don't believe that the friends supported the McCanns out of a misguided sense of loyalty or that they did so without considering the consequences  ... unless they were totally convinced by the McCanns that Madeleine was abducted. They allowed themselves to become accomplices.

Louise ... I do not understand your reasoning.  If the McCann's were convinced that Madeleine was abducted ... how would they become accomplices?

I believe you give the McCanns and their friends too much credit in regards to intelligence.  It was a very unwise ... downright stupid ... of all of them to leave their precious children alone ... out of earshot ... defenceless against unforeseen dangers ... for any length of time.  One of the McCann's  friends claimed he checked on his sick daughter ... changed her sheets and ... returned to the Tapa bar. 

Louise ... my 9 year old grandson is aware that younger children should not be left alone.  I was about to drive Zach to a birthday party when he became very upset.  He thought I was going to leave his younger brother (4) in the house alone while I made the 5 minute drive to his friend's home.  Unknown to him his father had come home earlier and ... was in the computer room.

This incident with my grandson took place last week and ... I immediately thought about the McCanns and their friends.

Louise ... the friends of the McCann each made an unwise regretable decision to leave their precious children alone ... maybe ... just maybe ... out of a misguided sense of loyalty ...

Hey ... I do not know but ... considering the PLE's interest in their inconsistent statements ...

Janet

There is a program about a mother and father who have 8 children (6 born on the same day) and they went on a 4th of July parade, then over to their friends home. A couple of the children were alseep, so they left them in the car which was parked in the driveway of the home with the doors open and went in the back yard with the rest of the children and later checked on the kids in the car.

Kermit ... it would take two minutes to carry those sleeping children  to a location ... a location out of harms ways ... a location of safety.

In Canada ... that action is considered a felony.  Children cannot be left unattended in vehicles for any length of time.  Twice in our area in the past year ... vehicles have been stolen ... one from a church parking lot ... one from a service station.  The car doors were left open and ... the thieves in both cases were unaware that sleeping children were in the vehicle.  Thankfully ... the vehicles were abandoned within a short period of time ... thankfully these thieves were not kidnappers.

I concede that over the years ... raising three children ... that I have taken risks.  I remember leaving my eldest son (4 years old) in the back yard while I ran in to answer the phone (before cell phones).  I was probably gone five minutes max.  When I returned this kid had put a box up to the fence ... climbed into the neighbour's yard to see close up their pet rabbit.  Kermit ... there was a beautiful little goldfish pond in that back yard and ... my child had to pass that pond to get to the rabbit hutch.  I was so fortunate.  I concede that it was an unwise ... neglectful ... unintelligent ... thing to do.  It was my God-given responsibility to assure that this precious child ... who was not a precious teenager ... was not put in harms ways.  However ... unliked the McCanns and their friend ... my action was not a premeditated.

Janet

[Anna]

I don't think the Tapas 9 are covering for the McCanns with the possible exception of perhaps one or two of them.  They are covering for themselves and the fact that they were doing the very same thing the McCanns did which is highly illegal in most countries and could result in their children being removed from their custody.

At least that had to be a concern when this first happened for them all.

[pdh3]

Kerm, I just watched that show and was thinking the same as you... some people just don't get it and it was totally 'over their heads' . . .

That show is a documentary, and most likely there was a producer or an assistant watching their van for them. I watch that show all the time, and I don't think they'd leave their kids totally unattended. They are really good parents IMHO.

[Tamikosmom]

I am curious ... I believe I have asked this question before on this forum but ... cannot remember a response.

Monkeys ... what would be your opinion of the McCanns' parenting if you had entrusted your three year old daughter/ grandaughter /niece to the McCanns when they went on this Portuguese vacation and ... it had been you loved one ... not madeleine ... who had gone missing?

Janet

[Nut44x4]

The McCann's should never have left their children alone, period...end of story. I often wonder how many times before this they have left them alone. There is no excuse...none.

[pdh3]

Personally....I never left my kids alone when they were young. I would not want anyone else to leave them either, or grandchildren if I had any.
I'm not saying it was OK for that group to leave their kids unattended. Or for anyone to leave a small child in such a vulnerable position. But good parents do make mistakes in judgement occasionally. I know I have, and I'm a really dedicated parent, but I'm not perfect.
What about the Mom who took a fussy infant out of a carseat for just a minute in a moving car, then was involved in an accident in which the baby died? In that one moment of lapsed judgegment, that mistake was deadly for the baby. But I would not judge her whole time as a parent based on just that one tragedy.
Or what about a parent who hires a sitter who turns out to be an abuser?
Or the grandmother who was frying chicken, turned away for a minute, and her grandson pulled the fryer on himself and was hideously burned?
All parents and grandparents and caregivers do things that could potentially harm the children in their care. Most do it out of ignorance, or exhaustion, or a momentary lapse of good sense. But we all do it at one time or another.
Kate McCann has said that they made a terrible mistake, and that if she could take it back she would. But I don't think she and her husband are alone in making a bad decision that had a tragic outcome. Parents do it every day. Most are just lucky that everything turns out OK.
I don't know if the McCanns are good parents or awful parents, but the mistake they made has obviously cost Madeleine dearly.

[Tamikosmom]

Personally....I never left my kids alone when they were young. I would not want anyone else to leave them either, or grandchildren if I had any.
 
I'm not saying it was OK for that group to leave their kids unattended. Or for anyone to leave a small child in such a vulnerable position. But good parents do make mistakes in judgement occasionally. I know I have, and I'm a really dedicated parent, but I'm not perfect.

What about the Mom who took a fussy infant out of a carseat for just a minute in a moving car, then was involved in an accident in which the baby died? In that one moment of lapsed judgegment, that mistake was deadly for the baby. But I would not judge her whole time as a parent based on just that one tragedy.
 
Or what about a parent who hires a sitter who turns out to be an abuser?

Or the grandmother who was frying chicken, turned away for a minute, and her grandson pulled the fryer on himself and was hideously burned?
 
All parents and grandparents and caregivers do things that could potentially harm the children in their care. Most do it out of ignorance, or exhaustion, or a momentary lapse of good sense. But we all do it at one time or another.

Kate McCann has said that they made a terrible mistake, and that if she could take it back she would. But I don't think she and her husband are alone in making a bad decision that had a tragic outcome. Parents do it every day. Most are just lucky that everything turns out OK.

I don't know if the McCanns are good parents or awful parents, but the mistake they made has obviously cost Madeleine dearly.

pdh3

I agree ... in raising three kids I have put each of them at risk at one time or another which resulted from a momentary lapse of judgement and ... I am not justifying it ... it was wrong ... I am very fortunate that there were no tragic outcomes.

However ... the McCann's and friends rose to another level ... it was not a momentary lapse of judgement.  These health care  professionals planned to leave their precious children alone ... night after night.  It was premeditated ... not a mistake.  They knew better.

If the McCann's had been entrusted with my 4 year old grandson and ... it was Alex who was missing ... not Madeleine ... I concede that I know beyond a doubt that I would be unforgiving.  A momentary lapse in judgement I could forgive ... not justify but ... I could forgive.

pdh3 ... this is why I cannot empathize with the McCanns ... my focus is on a vulnerable three year old little girl named Madeleine and ... my heart breaks.

Sincerely,  Janet

[Tamikosmom]

pdh3 and Nut44x4

Thank you for your responses to my query.

Janet

[A's Fever]

Personally....I never left my kids alone when they were young. I would not want anyone else to leave them either, or grandchildren if I had any.
I'm not saying it was OK for that group to leave their kids unattended. Or for anyone to leave a small child in such a vulnerable position. But good parents do make mistakes in judgement occasionally. I know I have, and I'm a really dedicated parent, but I'm not perfect.
What about the Mom who took a fussy infant out of a carseat for just a minute in a moving car, then was involved in an accident in which the baby died? In that one moment of lapsed judgegment, that mistake was deadly for the baby. But I would not judge her whole time as a parent based on just that one tragedy.
Or what about a parent who hires a sitter who turns out to be an abuser?
Or the grandmother who was frying chicken, turned away for a minute, and her grandson pulled the fryer on himself and was hideously burned?
All parents and grandparents and caregivers do things that could potentially harm the children in their care. Most do it out of ignorance, or exhaustion, or a momentary lapse of good sense. But we all do it at one time or another.
Kate McCann has said that they made a terrible mistake, and that if she could take it back she would. But I don't think she and her husband are alone in making a bad decision that had a tragic outcome. Parents do it every day. Most are just lucky that everything turns out OK.
I don't know if the McCanns are good parents or awful parents, but the mistake they made has obviously cost Madeleine dearly.

Great post, pdh3!

There is no dispute that the McCanns left the children alone that night and there is a consensus on the board that that act was negligible.  While I agree with Tamiko's Mom that it is hard to empathize with the McCanns, the act of leaving the kids alone does not necessarily equate to murder nor does it implicate the parents in Maddie's death or disappearance, and the constant focus on this issue does not advance the discussion about what happened to Maddie that night.  Unfortunately, real evidence is scarce so there is little else to discuss at this point except the McCanns' character.  It is indisputable that what the McCanns did made it possible for for Maddie to be harmed, and they should be held responsible for that.  However, the story does not stop there, and it seems to me the focus should be what happened to Madelaine that night.

I would sure like to see more information about the Tapas 9 and the inconsistencies in their stories, the old connection between Murat and G. McCann, and Kate's key to the church (is this odd, or is it just me?).  Also, what has become of the DNA analysis?   Maddie's story seems to have fallen out of the news of late.

One final point - as nasty as the British tabloids can be I have not come across any rumors or innuendo about the McCanns being bad or abusive parents in the past, no reports from neighbors or household help criticizing them, as we might expect of people with continually bad judgement or poor parenting skills. 

[Anna]

I am curious ... I believe I have asked this question before on this forum but ... cannot remember a response.

Monkeys ... what would be your opinion of the McCanns' parenting if you had entrusted your three year old daughter/ granddaughter /niece to the McCanns when they went on this Portuguese vacation and ... it had been you loved one ... not madeleine ... who had gone missing?

Janet

Janet,

I agree with you that this was not just a momentary lapse in judgment since they had done it six nights previous.  In the day time, they left the kids with the resort baby sitters up to six or seven hours but at night Kate didn't want to leave them with strangers?  Why if OK in day time.

And the one who said he was changing sheets of his own sick child whom he then left alone again?

If this were my child left in their care, I would want some answers and better ones than OOPS!  Once or twice I have read the McCanns saying they regretted leaving the children but a hundred times I have read how outraged they are that someone would dare to suspect them or damage their "good name."

I don't trust the PLE completely either but they did NOT set out to frame the McCanns or they would have investigated them first as they should have done.

I don't know what happened to Madeleine but fear it might have been an accident of some sort which the McCanns must hide or face possible negligent charges or losing custody of their two remaining children.  Since the whole group was doing the same thing, they all must hang together or they will hang separated ly as that goes.

JMO but several things they have said and done to not ring true to me as the behavior of parents in their situation at all.

.

[Tamikosmom]

Thank you Anna

Janet

[NYC_lover]

Madeleine Case Files Remain Secret
By Alex Watts
Sky News Online reporter Updated:05:56, Wednesday November 14, 2007

Gerry and Kate McCann's hopes of seeing details of their daughter's disappearance have been dashed - despite a change in Portuguese secrecy laws.
 
McCanns will not get to see filesThis week's shake-up in the country's laws will make it easier for people - including official suspects in a case, like the McCanns - to access police investigation files.

Previously, all information in police files had to remain secret.

But the McCanns have told Sky News Online the overhaul will not lift the veil on documents concerning their daughter's disappearance.

Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said the couple had been informed by the Portuguese legal system that it would not apply to "complex" cases like Madeleine's.

The McCanns had hoped the change would end the rumour and speculation that has surrounded the police inquiry.

 
Madeleine vanished on May 3Carlos Pinto de Abreu, the McCanns' family lawyer, had been a prime mover behind the new legislation, and had hailed it as an important step towards a more open system.

The changes follow complaints that officers made a series of blunders in the Madeleine investigation, including failing to seal off the crime scene.

There have been accusations that detectives have been hiding behind the secrecy rules to conceal these errors.

Many have blamed the information vacuum under the old rules for encouraging leaks to the media.

These have included claims about forensic evidence in the McCanns' hire car, and suggestions that Kate McCann's diary shows she had trouble controlling her children.

Police have named the McCanns as official suspects in their daughter's disappearance, and have submitted a 1,000-page dossier against them.

[Anna]

Why were the McCanns not concerned that not one but all three of these toddlers would awaken and start crying at the top of their lungs, disturbing the other guests?

Was their some reason they felt reasonably sure this wouldn't happen and what might that reason be?

My problem with this massive lapse in judgment is that a person who would make this big of a blunder might also make others of equal or even greater consequence. 

.

[pdh3]

I am curious ... I believe I have asked this question before on this forum but ... cannot remember a response.

Monkeys ... what would be your opinion of the McCanns' parenting if you had entrusted your three year old daughter/ granddaughter /niece to the McCanns when they went on this Portuguese vacation and ... it had been you loved one ... not madeleine ... who had gone missing?

Janet

Janet,

I agree with you that this was not just a momentary lapse in judgment since they had done it six nights previous.  In the day time, they left the kids with the resort baby sitters up to six or seven hours but at night Kate didn't want to leave them with strangers?  Why if OK in day time.

And the one who said he was changing sheets of his own sick child whom he then left alone again?

If this were my child left in their care, I would want some answers and better ones than OOPS!  Once or twice I have read the McCanns saying they regretted leaving the children but a hundred times I have read how outraged they are that someone would dare to suspect them or damage their "good name."

I don't trust the PLE completely either but they did NOT set out to frame the McCanns or they would have investigated them first as they should have done.

I don't know what happened to Madeleine but fear it might have been an accident of some sort which the McCanns must hide or face possible negligent charges or losing custody of their two remaining children.  Since the whole group was doing the same thing, they all must hang together or they will hang separated ly as that goes.

JMO but several things they have said and done to not ring true to me as the behavior of parents in their situation at all.

.

The McCanns have stated that they thought the resort was very safe, and that they were told there was some kind of monitor. I can't remember the details exactly. That was their lapse in judgement....assuming that the resort was safer than it actually is. Had they known about the pedophile problem in Portugal, maybe they would have taken more care. But the resort was sold as being a very safe family place, and that's what all of that group bought into. They felt that it was OK to leave the kids asleep, and to check in from time to time, rather than have a stranger in the room with them. I don't know that I agree with either of those choices - I would have done neither. But that doesn't make these parents murderers. Some parents are just more laid back than others about things, and this group seemed to be that way.
The Portuguese police just don't have a theory that makes sense to me. I do believe they were trying to protect their tourism trade as much as possible, and that makes me a little leery of their investigation. I don't trust that they have been completely objective, and they have botched the case so far.

[Anna]

I am curious ... I believe I have asked this question before on this forum but ... cannot remember a response.

Monkeys ... what would be your opinion of the McCanns' parenting if you had entrusted your three year old daughter/ granddaughter /niece to the McCanns when they went on this Portuguese vacation and ... it had been you loved one ... not madeleine ... who had gone missing?

Janet

Janet,

I agree with you that this was not just a momentary lapse in judgment since they had done it six nights previous.  In the day time, they left the kids with the resort baby sitters up to six or seven hours but at night Kate didn't want to leave them with strangers?  Why if OK in day time.

And the one who said he was changing sheets of his own sick child whom he then left alone again?

If this were my child left in their care, I would want some answers and better ones than OOPS!  Once or twice I have read the McCanns saying they regretted leaving the children but a hundred times I have read how outraged they are that someone would dare to suspect them or damage their "good name."

I don't trust the PLE completely either but they did NOT set out to frame the McCanns or they would have investigated them first as they should have done.

I don't know what happened to Madeleine but fear it might have been an accident of some sort which the McCanns must hide or face possible negligent charges or losing custody of their two remaining children.  Since the whole group was doing the same thing, they all must hang together or they will hang separated ly as that goes.

JMO but several things they have said and done to not ring true to me as the behavior of parents in their situation at all.

.

The McCanns have stated that they thought the resort was very safe, and that they were told there was some kind of monitor. I can't remember the details exactly. That was their lapse in judgement....assuming that the resort was safer than it actually is. Had they known about the pedophile problem in Portugal, maybe they would have taken more care. But the resort was sold as being a very safe family place, and that's what all of that group bought into. They felt that it was OK to leave the kids asleep, and to check in from time to time, rather than have a stranger in the room with them. I don't know that I agree with either of those choices - I would have done neither. But that doesn't make these parents murderers. Some parents are just more laid back than others about things, and this group seemed to be that way.
The Portuguese police just don't have a theory that makes sense to me. I do believe they were trying to protect their tourism trade as much as possible, and that makes me a little leery of their investigation. I don't trust that they have been completely objective, and they have botched the case so far.

Not once have I EVER called these parents "Murderers"!

But those steps up to the apartment don't look exactly safe to me for toddlers.  I would imagine a fall from the top step could injure a child very badly without anyone telling me anything.

I also don't buy Portugal being any more of a nest for pedophiles than say Belgium or the Netherlands but the McCanns live in the EU and would have far better access to that kind of information than we would.

I do tend to think it very POSSIBLE an accident happened perhaps related to sedating their children to keep them asleep while they dined and that the entire Tapas group may have been doing this routinely.

It wasn't the first night they left them alone.  Do that enough times and sooner or later something bad will be sure to happen.

But we all have our theories.  Some of the things the McCanns have done and continue to do are far from endearing to me like getting a copyright for Madeleine's anomaly in her right eye.

Beth allowed any and everybody to use photos of Natalee and I can't think of an innocent reason for them to do this unless planning to maybe sue somebody for using Madeleine's image without their permission.  Very odd thing for parents to be doing if they want to get word out about their missing child, to try to restrict use of her image.

Anyone ever find out how much she weights?  More odd information missing from the information about her for parents seriously looking.  I notice Natalee weighted approximately 105 pounds, not secret there about her.

JMO and yes, we all do have one.

JMO

[LouiseVargas]

Janet,

Quote from: Tamikosmom on November 13, 2007, 04:03:24 PM
I am curious ... I believe I have asked this question before on this forum but cannot remember a response. What would be your opinion of the McCanns' parenting if you had entrusted your three year old daughter/ granddaughter /niece to the McCanns when they went on this Portuguese vacation and ... it had been your loved one ... not Madeleine ... who had gone missing?

Because of not seeing anything obviously wrong with the McCanns and if I had the money, I would have easily volunteered my children to go to Portugal with the McCanns.

[pdh3]

Anna - No one said you called them murderers..??? But others have. Why do you always take everything as a personal attack on you?

Does anyone know for sure they copyrighted Madeleine's eye? There has been so much rumor presented as fact in this case. I'm not sure that we even know what's really true, and what's not. There may have been a good reason for it, anyway. We just don't know.
As far as the McCann's knowing about the pedophile rings...how would they know? It's not like it was advertised. I don't know if there's one in Georgia, or Wisconsin...do you? Before you travel to another state, do you do research to see if there are pedophiles operating there? I never did. In Europe, people travel from country to country almost like we travel from state to state, because they are so close together.