Lively Case Discussion #634 6/4 - 6/5/2007

[Lala'sMom]

Gabe was involved in the MEP.  At one time I actually saw the photos of him when the election was won by MEP.  He may have been going with the flow to stay in their good graces.  

I doubt there will b e anything about the IP info forthcoming...hope I am wrong.  Just let me say that I too requested the info and never received it. Not only does Burke fit the bill for Simian it is perfect in relation to whoever is Shango.  I will brb to show you what I mean...

[Tylergal]

Is there an award forthcoming for Pearl?  

Would this work as a start..  ??

I'm still laughing    

   

[klaasend]

PG vraagt advies over dossier feitenonderzoek minister Croes
4 Jun, 2007, 17:26 (GMT -04:00)
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_31220.php
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  ORANJESTAD — Waarnemend procureur-generaal (PG) Nico Jörg heeft zijn collega van de Nederlandse Antillen op Curaçao afgelopen vrijdag om advies gevraagd over het dossier dat is opgemaakt door de Landsrecherche, naar aanleiding van de brief van de AVP-fractie, waarin melding wordt gemaakt van mogelijke corruptie van de kant van minister van Justitie, Rudy Croes (MEP), met betrekking tot verblijfsvergunningen.

Naar aanleiding van de brief van de AVP-fractie – die niet het karakter had van een aangifte van een strafbaar feit – is een feitenonderzoek gestart. Een feitenonderzoek is een onderzoek naar feiten en gedragingen waar mogelijk een strafrechtelijk aspect aan kleeft. Een dergelijk onderzoek kan al worden ingesteld in een stadium dat er nog geen aanwijzingen zijn die een redelijk vermoeden van schuld aan een strafbaar feit oplevert. Een feitenonderzoek kan worden gevolgd door een strafrechtelijk opsporingsonderzoek.

Wat nu voorligt is de vraag of het feitenmateriaal dat tot nu toe is verzameld een redelijk vermoeden van schuld aan een strafbaar feit oplevert, zodat het instellen van een opsporingsonderzoek gerechtvaardigd is, dan wel dat voldoende aanknopingspunten uit het feitenonderzoek naar voren komen om te kunnen en mogen verwachten dat een strafrechtelijk opsporingsonderzoek tot vaststelling en opheldering van een strafbaar feit zal leiden.

VUURLINIE

De reden dat de PG thans voor deze beslissing – die een technisch-juridische beoordeling van de onderzoeksresultaten omvat – advies vraagt aan zijn collega in Willemstad heeft te maken met zijn analyse van de strafwetgeving in Aruba. Verleden week verklaarde Jörg in een interview met de correspondent van de Wereldomroep dat hij van oordeel is dat de Arubaanse strafwetgeving onvoldoende garanties bevat om te voorkomen dat de PG (en daarmee het Openbaar Ministerie) geheel ten onrechte in de politieke vuurlinie komt te liggen.

Veel beter, aldus Jörg, zou het zijn – om het OM te beschermen tegen onterechte beschuldigingen van politieke beïnvloeding – indien ministers of oud-ministers alleen maar zouden kunnen worden vervolgd doordat de politiek daarvoor de verantwoordelijkheid neemt en niet afschuift op de PG. Hij noemt Nederland als voorbeeld, waar zulke beslissingen zijn voorbehouden aan de Tweede Kamer dan wel de Kroon. In Aruba zou een dergelijk systeem volgens Jörg echter nooit voor zittende ministers – die een meerderheid in het parlement hebben – gaan werken. Daarom heeft de hij gezocht naar een ander oplossing.

OPLOSSING

Hij meent binnen de wet, namelijk de Samenwerkingsregeling tussen Aruba en de Antillen, een oplossing te hebben gevonden. De PG’s van Aruba en de Antillen dienen namelijk regelmatig overleg met elkaar te voeren en elkaar van advies te dienen. De PG van de Antillen, die volgens Jörg geheel immuun is voor welke beïnvloeding vanuit Aruba dan ook, en in zijn advies aan de PG van Aruba ook niet kan worden beïnvloed door de regering van de Antillen, is de aangewezen functionaris om het gevraagde advies te geven. Zodoende wordt iedere schijn van politieke beïnvloeding vermeden, schijn die afbreuk kan doen aan het vertrouwen in de onafhankelijkheid en objectiviteit van het Openbaar Ministerie, en daarmee in een goede strafrechtspleging in Aruba in het algemeen.

De PG in Willemstad heeft op zijn beurt het dossier overgedragen aan de advocaat-generaal in Willemstad. Deze wordt gevraagd het advies uit te brengen. De PG van Aruba heeft zich bij voorbaat aan het advies verbonden. Fraude binnen het Ministerie van Justitie moet, zo stelt hij, namelijk sowieso worden vervolgd. Of er voldoende aanwijzingen uit het feitenonderzoek naar voren komen om een opsporingsonderzoek daarnaar in te stellen, moet uit het gevraagde juridisch-technische advies blijken.


Partial translation in babelfish:

PG ask fact research to recommendation concerning file minister Croes

ORANJESTAD - has asked its colleague of the Netherlands Antilles on Curaçao last Friday to temporary Procurator-General (PG) Nico Jörg for recommendation concerning the file which has been made up by the Landsrecherche, as a result of the letter of the avp-fractieavp-fractie avp-fractie, in which report is made of possible corruption of the side of minister of justice, Rudy Croes (MEP), concerning residence permit.

(SNIPPED)

Rudy Croes corrupt?  Say it isn't so!  

[Lala'sMom]

It is also important to note that both Eleye and Colombo were keen to the idea that Simian was involved with ALE.  I know this from personal correspondence with Eleye.  He was saying this from the get go.

[oldfart]

why Anna, you look positively angelic to a fault !

I do hope you have something more stylish on underneath that habit ? I miss yours and your pups stylish outfits.

Thanks but think I will stick with this for a bit.  Just feels right some how.

.

Must get approval from Blah since he got me that nice Burka to wear.  I don't want to offend him.  Sort of the same principle just adjusted the religion for now.

Thanks for asking, however.

 

Here I thought it was a self reminder of some sort not to cuss or spit in the cage..
Out loud to oneself is expected though.

[klaasend]

Gabe was involved in the MEP.  At one time I actually saw the photos of him when the election was won by MEP.  He may have been going with the flow to stay in their good graces.  

I doubt there will b e anything about the IP info forthcoming...hope I am wrong.  Just let me say that I too requested the info and never received it. Not only does Burke fit the bill for Simian it is perfect in relation to whoever is Shango.  I will brb to show you what I mean...

You are correct Lala's.  I bet those photos are still on his Myspace or Tickle site.

[Anna]

Gabe was involved in the MEP.  At one time I actually saw the photos of him when the election was won by MEP.  He may have been going with the flow to stay in their good graces.  

I doubt there will b e anything about the IP info forthcoming...hope I am wrong.  Just let me say that I too requested the info and never received it. Not only does Burke fit the bill for Simian it is perfect in relation to whoever is Shango.  I will brb to show you what I mean...

Gabe says his family helped found MEP, something he is very proud of and he is a big supporter of it.

Yes, there are many photos of him with MEP on them and celebrating the MEP victory in the last election.

.

[klaasend]

Back to working and lurking  

[AZLady]

I'm back.  I agree that there was a division very early in this case in the corps of Police.  However, that's not really unusual, as witnessed by the many cases of corruption in police forces all over the world.  What's unusual, I think, is that the corrupt police still hold sway over their fellow officers.  This means that the corruption is very high up in the system and very controlling.  Can you say Rudy Croes?

[Rob]

I'm not gonna speak for Deetch, but he always believed that Shango was FBI.

What exact corruption is Croes involved in? There are so many possibilities, it could almost be everything and anything. That guy is prolly the most crooked Aruba of all time.

[sharon]

It is also important to note that both Eleye and Colombo were keen to the idea that Simian was involved with ALE.  I know this from personal correspondence with Eleye.  He was saying this from the get go.

lala's --  somewhere in Simian's posts(early ones I think) he admits that he has an 'inside' with the ALE.

(He also says he is South American -- and a graduate of 'collegiate arubano'.)

I guess we're finding out that it was HIM that was inside the ALE

I have to do the 'dinner' thing. I'll try to find the posts later.  I'm curious about the dates of those posts.

[Rob]

Gabe was involved in the MEP.  At one time I actually saw the photos of him when the election was won by MEP.  He may have been going with the flow to stay in their good graces.  

I doubt there will b e anything about the IP info forthcoming...hope I am wrong.  Just let me say that I too requested the info and never received it. Not only does Burke fit the bill for Simian it is perfect in relation to whoever is Shango.  I will brb to show you what I mean...

You are correct Lala's.  I bet those photos are still on his Myspace or Tickle site.

ok, well that makes it more likely he was involved... For some reason I thought he was in the AVP... but according to my memory (if it's workin').. his grandfather and Betico were best friends. So... that's prolly more like it..Betico founded the MEP.

I was wrong about the AVP.. and Gabe.

[Lala'sMom]

Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
The music man’s song was not on the bill.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:09 pm
Simian, who else plays in the orchestra? A Babylonian….
Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
The last hope rests on the shoulders of the cowboys. Ten days, two down, eight to go.
The elder knows the passages in the palace too well. The Babylonians are afraid they might not be able to stop him.
Don’t shake the wire, ‘cause the bird will fy away.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
Simian, older PVDS had one ot two cards up his sleeve. They have been played, and lost. Will one of the cards sing?

This is the first exchange between Shango and Simian.  They clearly know who each other are at this point.  In some ways Simian is egging Shango on with the riddles, even attempting to speak his language eventually.

[Dayhiker]

ORANJESTAD - has asked its colleague of the Netherlands Antilles on Curaçao last Friday to temporary Procurator-General (PG) Nico Jörg for recommendation concerning the file which has been made up by the Landsrecherche, as a result of the letter of the avp-fractieavp-fractie avp-fractie, in which report is made of possible corruption of the side of minister of justice, Rudy Croes (MEP), concerning residence permit.

(SNIPPED)

Rudy Croes corrupt?  Say it isn't so!  

Rudy may want to extend his stay in Columbia.

[oldfart]

OK..
I have not done the  Simian    route so bear with me..I'm a little slow

If you assume now that he is/was part of ALE... does what he had to say read any differently?  
If yaknowwhatimean
Just wondering

[AZLady]

Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
The music man’s song was not on the bill.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:09 pm
Simian, who else plays in the orchestra? A Babylonian….
Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
The last hope rests on the shoulders of the cowboys. Ten days, two down, eight to go.
The elder knows the passages in the palace too well. The Babylonians are afraid they might not be able to stop him.
Don’t shake the wire, ‘cause the bird will fy away.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
Simian, older PVDS had one ot two cards up his sleeve. They have been played, and lost. Will one of the cards sing?

This is the first exchange between Shango and Simian.  They clearly know who each other are at this point.  In some ways Simian is egging Shango on with the riddles, even attempting to speak his language eventually.

Lala's, in this exchange, Shango is asking the questions of Simian.  He is asking Simian for information.  I get the feeling that Shango knows Simian has information and is asking him for an update on the situation.

[Lala'sMom]

I'm not gonna speak for Deetch, but he always believed that Shango was FBI.

What exact corruption is Croes involved in? There are so many possibilities, it could almost be everything and anything. That guy is prolly the most crooked Aruba of all time.

DIRTY HAND>  Tylergal knew all along.  How do I come to this conclusion? Here goes...Shango was indeed a diversion of sorts to confound and confuse.  The MEP party was newly elected, through corrupt means I am sure, and they didn't need this to become what it eventually did.  A trail of corruption for all to follow.  Shango knew there was a cover up and he/she knew the way it went down because Shango had seen it with his own eyes.  He had been involved in it to some extent.  Either by relaying the info as Shango or as having witnessed it first hand.  Shango clearly implicates the 3 perps in the crime.  He just adds to the details in a very colorful and cryptic way.  When another poster says"Hey, I know who Dirty Hand is."  He jumps on it and agrees.  This in turn removes suspicion as to the true Dirty Hand.  We know that Shango claims there are many dirty hands.  Jossy has stated on Dana many times that he does not think van der Straaten is involved and wanted only to help Natalee's family.  I guess we will see.

[oldfart]

Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
The music man’s song was not on the bill.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:09 pm
Simian, who else plays in the orchestra? A Babylonian….
Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
The last hope rests on the shoulders of the cowboys. Ten days, two down, eight to go.The elder knows the passages in the palace too well. The Babylonians are afraid they might not be able to stop him.
Don’t shake the wire, ‘cause the bird will fy away.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
Simian, older PVDS had one ot two cards up his sleeve. They have been played, and lost. Will one of the cards sing?

This is the first exchange between Shango and Simian.  They clearly know who each other are at this point.  In some ways Simian is egging Shango on with the riddles, even attempting to speak his language eventually.

What occured on June 24th ?   Sorry if this is common knowledge?

[AZLady]

Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
The music man’s song was not on the bill.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:09 pm
Simian, who else plays in the orchestra? A Babylonian….
Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
The last hope rests on the shoulders of the cowboys. Ten days, two down, eight to go.
The elder knows the passages in the palace too well. The Babylonians are afraid they might not be able to stop him.
Don’t shake the wire, ‘cause the bird will fy away.
Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 3:10 pm
Simian, older PVDS had one ot two cards up his sleeve. They have been played, and lost. Will one of the cards sing?

This is the first exchange between Shango and Simian.  They clearly know who each other are at this point.  In some ways Simian is egging Shango on with the riddles, even attempting to speak his language eventually.

Lala's, in this exchange, Shango is asking the questions of Simian.  He is asking Simian for information.  I get the feeling that Shango knows Simian has information and is asking him for an update on the situation.

Towards the end of the exchange, Simian warns him, "Don’t shake the wire, ‘cause the bird will fy away."  Simian is saying don't ask too many public questions, or I will leave.  He may be referring to himself as the "bird."

[nonesuche]

Just popping in to say thank you to Klaas and also to Rob, for I'm not sure the exact IP's can even assure us any longer. It's not hard to mask an IP if you have a techie willing to set a route up for you, not to diss what Anidac did nor the mountain of hours she invested - it's just terribly hard for security experts even to uncover all the doors & network pathways within that - and I do speak from experience in that Rick actually worked for some of my clients with those very issues in the last two years of his life. He also worked for one of the largest retailers in the world last year and with a team of 20 to accomplish that and some other objectives related to privacy and data warehousing. It's draining work and even with best practice efforts the trails are very difficult if you know how to create all those doors and twists and turns.

blah   I agree with your stand on our freedoms buddy, thank you  

OldFart, you are obsessed with cupcakes