Lively Case Discussion #636 6/6 - 6/8/2007

[Port Valerie]

i'm going with photo - I think its a photo

I agree.

just showed up on msnbc website with a blurb saying it's his booking photo.  psycho.

In that case, his eyes really are creepy, not just an artist's rendition.  Very bad.

[msmarple]

I'm reposting this - I try to do this every day on the LCD. For one thing, there's a link to the hotel, for directions etc.

Posted by Richard on the front page of SM 5/23/07:

The Aruba Tourism Authority will be taking part in a June 27-July 1 event for travel agents only at the Hilton Hotel on 2 Poydras Street in New Orleans.

The event is sponsored by www.vacations.com .

As always, VolunteersforNatalee@gmail.com is a contact address that will try to link up anyone interested.

We confronted Aruba Tourism Authority in Boston.
We confronted Aruba Tourism Authority in Miami.
Now we can take them on in New Orleans.

Stand up for Natalee!

No justice for Natalee … no tourists for Aruba.

If you’re interested, go to:
SM ATA Travel Show thread, page 6 (scroll down) -
http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=1003&start=100

Hilton Neworleans – Riverside – web site:
http://www1.hilton.com/en_US/hi/hotel/MSYNHHH-Hilton-New-Orleans-Riverside-Louisiana/index.do
Two Poydras Street, New Orleans, Louisiana
Tel: 1-504-561-0500
The hotel faces the Mississippi River and is “right at” the French Quarter.

***

Per Richard, a condo is available June 27 - June 29.

Per Vicki, a few people from BFN are going (two females that I know of). The signs from the Miami show are available.

Donations ($$) also are appreciated, for the cost of flyers, permit fee, maybe parking etc. (not travel/lodging).

[msmarple]

This site has the same picture but slightly different coloring. Well, he looks gray/yellow instead of green/yellow.

http://www.kansascity.com/

Supposed to be a hearing at 1:30 today - I am guessing that's Kansas time.

[msmarple]

Meant to mention that at the link I just posted, if you click on "The Search for Kelsey Smith", there are several photos of Tim Miller in action.

[memphis]

That latest picture of Edwin Hall would scare the sheet off a ghost!  

where'd you see it?

look here

http://www.foxnews.com/

It's all in the eyes...think Scott Peterson....etc.

Think Joran also

Yes, Joran also.  Did anyone see the resemblance of this guy walking into Target and Joran walking into the casino.  The both have the same walk.

I did! I did!

His eyes look vacant, but his mouth somehow looks very evil also. Something about the way it is set. I thought he looked evil on that video surveilance. Yikes!

[blah]

That latest picture of Edwin Hall would scare the sheet off a ghost!  

where'd you see it?

look here

http://www.foxnews.com/

It's all in the eyes...think Scott Peterson....etc.

Think Joran also

Yes, Joran also.  Did anyone see the resemblance of this guy walking into Target and Joran walking into the casino.  The both have the same walk.

I did! I did!

His eyes look vacant, but his mouth somehow looks very evil also. Something about the way it is set. I thought he looked evil on that video surveilance. Yikes!

it looks like they have him in a straight jacket

[nonesuche]

If you click on the link msmarples posted there is a video posted of his neighbor who actually reported him post seeing the surveillance photo.

There is something vacant and cold about his eyes, I think Joran also has that feature, his eyes look to always have this same level stare about them. It's freakish.

[memphis]

Blah ~ I think you're right. I was wondering what kind of shirt he had on.

None ~ I saw that video. I would have preferred to hear the neighbor say he was strange and creepy. I guess none of us want to think that we couldn't tell he was a monster.

[memphis]

Watching that video of the guy running and shoving Kelsey in the car, made me think of Natalee. The just over 2 hours time frame also made me think about her. They may have not done the shove-in-the-car, but it was similar.

[msmarple]

This is a followup to some discussion yesterday. This is a translation of the Benvinda (Vinda) de Sousa letter. The letter was part of the NY case filings. I made comments in blue. Also added some bold face.

Leslie posted this Feb. 14, 2007, 3:56 pm, LCD 582.

I "borrowed" a copy of the translation of the article from RU. I am sure they won't mind:

arubagirl Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:32 pm

{Note: arubagirl translated this, apparently; maybe we can ask her about the "clairvoyant" thing ... I still maintain that "medium" or "mediator" was mis-translated by some of the people on the spot at the time.}

Translation of Benvinda de Souza's letter to Karen Jansen

Letter from Benvinda de Souza to Karen Jansen, regarding the families actions when they first came to Aruba"

PAGE 1
Aruba, June 23 2005
Deliver
Strictly Confidential
Subject: Elizabeth Twitty – Holloway c.a. [I do not know what this acronym means] – wronged party [I’m just translating, I don’t know if this is the correct legal term in English]

Your Honor,

In the abovementioned matter, I inform you, partyly referring to your telephone conversation of today, the following.

As discussed before, it is the concern of the family of the now missing girl Miss Nathalee (sic) Holloway, to remain informed as good as possible under the circumstances about the criminal procedure which is taking place in relation to the disappearance. We have been hired as attorneys, to represent and support the family as the wronged party, but also to facilitate the information stream from the Justice Department and also to bring over the answers to the questions as good as possible and in the correct context.

The family is convinced that the investigation apparatus under the leadership of the Justice Department is hard at work to bring the case to a solution. However, at this moment the family has questions about the events that took place inmediately after the disappearance of Nathalee Holloway and if some people were interrogated, either as a witness or informant. The following is relevant to this.

Mr and Mrs. Twitty – Holloway received Monday, May 30th last, around 12 pm local time a the first message that their daughter was missing. After placing a few calls, it seemed that this message was really serious, because Nathalee was indeed nowhere to be found.

Page 2

They inmediate arranged everything to come to Aruba as fast as possible and arrived in Aruba around 11pm Aruban time. At the airport the parents were met with mr. Alberto Groeneveld and Claudio Eldridge of Universal Aviation Aruba N.V. a ? company for private jets.

The parents departed inmediately to the Holiday Inn Hotel. They were awaited there by mr. Paul Lilly, one of the chaperones of the travelgroup of Nathalee and by mr. Eric Williams, and American ex-DEA agent and a friend of the family.

Because the parents had the feeling that something serious must have happened to Nathalee, they began the search themselves. From the two cousins of Nathalee who were with her in Aruba, a discription was received of Joran van der Sloot, since it was heard from others of Nathalee’s group that he was seen leaving with her from Carlos & Charlie’s, the previous night. Next the parents travelled to Carlos & Charlie’s, to get a view of the situation in the hopes of getting any useful information. This must have been around 1:30 am on May 31st. From Carlos & Charlie’s the group went to Valero Boulevard. There mr. Charles Croes presented himself, who introduced himself as a clairvoyant. They returned to the Holiday Inn. From the night manager cooperation was received to view the casino tapes, because Joran would have gambled there before. Indeed he was recognized on one of the tapes.

{I have to say that if C Croes had introduced himself as a clairvoyant, I think Jug et al would have told him to get lost.}

Information was also searched for along the beach. In the meantime mr. Alberto Groeneveld had received information that the silver car where Nathalee was last seen departing from Carlos & Charlie’s, had been spotted at a house in Montanja. After that the group went to the Noord police station, where two agents rode together with the group to the house in Montanja. This resulted to be the house of mr. Paul van der Sloot and his family. The silver car apparantly was not there anymore. After the police had looked around and attracted attention, indeed mr. Paul van der Sloot came outside. He was told the reason for this midnight visit, whereupon he let it be known that his son, Joran was not at home at the moment. He called his son, who according to him was in the Wyndham Casino. According to that information they departed with the two police officers and mr Paul van der Sloot to the Wyndham. When arrived there, Joran was not to be found. It had been witnessed that mr. Van Der Sloot had a conversation on his cellular phone, that was could not be understood. When Joran was not to be found his father called him again and he seemed to be at home. According to him he went home because there was police at his house. The personnel of the casino informed, after he was shown a picture of Nathalee, Nathalee was seen just before in the casino. Afterwards the group went again to the house of mr. Van Der Sloot. When arrived there the silver car appeared to be there. The door at the driver’s side was open.

Joran approached the group, with Deepak Kalpoe at his side, and began talking to the police officer. Seeing the clothes that he had on at that moment, it did not appear that he had just before been in a casino. Afterwards Joran wanted to approach mrs. Holloway, but interestingly enough . . .

mr. Van Der Sloot informed him several times that he did not have to or should say anything, even that he should shut his mouth. Deepak also said that Joran shouldn’t say anything. According to Joran, he wanted to talk because he wanted to help find Nathalee. This last took place in front of the police officers, together with mr. Charles Croes, Alberto Groeneveld and his colleague Claudio Eldridge. Then, in any case, Joran began to tell that he that he indeed left Carlos & Charlie’s together with the brothers Kalpoe and Nathalee the night before. They had supposedly gone to the lighthouse on the western side of Aruba, and dropped Nathalee around 2:00 am at the Holiday Inn. Also understood by Claudio is that mr. Van Der Sloot said that he picked up Joran around 4:00 am close to McDonald’s. Afterwards Joran told what kind of sexual acts he did with Nathalee. The family noticed that Joran behaved in an arrogant and challenging way.

The previously named actions took place between 11pm on May 30th 2005 and 4 am the following morning.

What comes next is the questions that the family wanted answers to: (loosely translated)

1) Has Mr. Groeneveld been interrogated about the times

2) Has Mr. Eldridge been interrogated

3) Why hasn’t Jug Twitty been interrogated

4) Did the police notice that the clothes were unsuitable for somebody who had just been in the casino?

5) Has it been confirmed that Joran has been in the casino? This because a personnel of the casino had mentioned that he had seen Nathalee

6) Has Charles Croes been interrogated?

7) Is it true that Mr. Kalpoe owns a ‘koei’ [?! Maybe they mean a ‘kooi’, which is a cage?!]

Has it been established that Joran told his father in the presence of the grou that he was first in the Wyndham and then in the Raddisson and afterwards he went home?

9) Has there been any forensic evidence and if so, where?

10) What does the Justice Department base their reasonable suspicion on, other than statements of the suspects?

11) Are there other people that are considered suspects or is the Justice Department only focusing on these suspects?

12) It seems that Joran’s Headmaster said to Jug Twitty that Joran said that Nathalee had drowned . Have these people been interrogated/

The last request is to inform the family when searches are going on, so that they can prepare themselves in case something is found.

Now, this is STILL not what I am really looking for, which is either the actual letter, or summary of contents of it - that Karen Janssen sent to the court re. the PVDS lawsuit/award money - the one that was turned down on or about Feb. 14.

That is where, among other things, we heard that apparently PVDS picked up Joran AND Natalee at 4:00 near McDonalds. That also references witness statements (plural) from (two?) people who heard PVDS say "4:00 a.m." (not "11 p.m.").

***
Also I'm reposting this; this is from the October meeting Q&A session.

24. Was Deepak's car seen inside the VDS compound? Yes, Alberto Groeneveld and Claudio Eldridge told me they had to climb the wall in order to write down the license number.

26. Were the Sloots tipped-off that the family group had landed in Aruba? Beth -- not at first. Art Wood -- the Sloots were probably tipped-off when the family group stopped at the Noord Police Station to wait for Charles Croes, Alberto Groeneveld and Claudio Eldridge to return from the VDS residence.

[nonesuche]

Watching that video of the guy running and shoving Kelsey in the car, made me think of Natalee. The just over 2 hours time frame also made me think about her. They may have not done the shove-in-the-car, but it was similar.

I agree, Natalee was targeted just as Kelsey was. The three amigos just had a little help from some kind of additive to her drink, for of course we now know from Joran's lips that she wasn't drunk !  

[Sue]

Watching that video of the guy running and shoving Kelsey in the car, made me think of Natalee. The just over 2 hours time frame also made me think about her. They may have not done the shove-in-the-car, but it was similar.

This is exactly why these perps did it...Statistically thinking
a victim is killed within 3 hours of abduction Joran was only one with
Natalee after the time she left the bar with them, well there is nothing to prove that she was with anyone else and Jorans times line as we all know doesnt fly at all

[Easywriter]

He just looks like an average young guy in the new video.

[BlueKYGirl]

He just looks like an average young guy in the new video.

He does look pretty normal in the one picture of him that Klaasend posted last night...but he looks like a freak in that mug shot.

Is it me or does he not fit the profile of a killer? I usually think of sex offenders being loner types. Joran seems like a different type of predator, preying on girls with a band of friends. But it seems extra bizarre that a married father of a 3-year-old has done this. I guess that's part of what makes it so scary.

[Easywriter]

He just looks like an average young guy in the new video.

He does look pretty normal in the one picture of him that Klaasend posted last night...but he looks like a freak in that mug shot.

Is it me or does he not fit the profile of a killer? I usually think of sex offenders being loner types. Joran seems like a different type of predator, preying on girls with a band of friends. But it seems extra bizarre that a married father of a 3-year-old has done this. I guess that's part of what makes it so scary.

A little earlier Fox had video of him walking in to be booked and he really looked very normal.  Kind of stone faced, but normal.

I don't think it is typical for young married guys, but there have been cases of married guys with children leading a double life.  I would like to know what else that have on the guy besides the video.  If they have dna evidence it is all over except for the zap.

[Easywriter]

I wonder if Phil Spector would be open to the idea of giving me his house and money since they are going to lock his arse up and throw away the key?  

[2NJSons_Mom]

He just looks like an average young guy in the new video.

He does look pretty normal in the one picture of him that Klaasend posted last night...but he looks like a freak in that mug shot.

Is it me or does he not fit the profile of a killer? I usually think of sex offenders being loner types. Joran seems like a different type of predator, preying on girls with a band of friends. But it seems extra bizarre that a married father of a 3-year-old has done this. I guess that's part of what makes it so scary.

A little earlier Fox had video of him walking in to be booked and he really looked very normal.  Kind of stone faced, but normal.

I don't think it is typical for young married guys, but there have been cases of married guys with children leading a double life.  I would like to know what else that have on the guy besides the video.  If they have dna evidence it is all over except for the zap.

Easy, I caught that video right after you posted...I agree that he did look like a regular guy...but that mug shot is ugh!

[Anna]

MsMarple,

Did you see the front page posts by Gabe Leo verifying that Charles Croes thinks he is clairvoyant and that it creeped out the kids riding in the car with him, etc.?

Apparently, no mistranslation as we had originally thought might be possible.  While I doubt if he actually introduces himself as that, he does seemingly make that claim.  I doubt Beth or Jug knew that little tid bit about him for some time.

He is one odd person.

.

[Easywriter]

He just looks like an average young guy in the new video.

He does look pretty normal in the one picture of him that Klaasend posted last night...but he looks like a freak in that mug shot.

Is it me or does he not fit the profile of a killer? I usually think of sex offenders being loner types. Joran seems like a different type of predator, preying on girls with a band of friends. But it seems extra bizarre that a married father of a 3-year-old has done this. I guess that's part of what makes it so scary.

A little earlier Fox had video of him walking in to be booked and he really looked very normal.  Kind of stone faced, but normal.

I don't think it is typical for young married guys, but there have been cases of married guys with children leading a double life.  I would like to know what else that have on the guy besides the video.  If they have dna evidence it is all over except for the zap.

Easy, I caught that video right after you posted...I agree that he did look like a regular guy...but that mug shot is ugh!

Oh yeah!  When I first saw that mug shot I thought holy moly what a classic looking psyco!  But, in the video he just looks like a young guy that knows he is in deep chit.

[Anna]

Well, we all have our lucid moments I suppose.

.